From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Sat May 1 00:22:00 2004 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 00:22:00 -0000 Subject: Remus & Sirius (Was: DD + Lupin - Nature of Secret Charm) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97373 Julia: > IMO the events happened in that order: > 1. Voldemort comes to the Potters, kills Lily and James, tries to kill Harry > (knocks down the hause), disappears > 2. DD somehow knows what happened and sends Hagrid for Harry > 3. Hagrid and Sirius arrive at the scene at nearly the same time. They both > are able to see what happened because there is no hause. > 4. Sirius decides to run after Peter, Hagrid takes Harry and Sirius's bike > and off he goes. > > I know that 2. is not "complete" but I just can't think of any way how DD > got to know what happened. You say it was Lupin who told him, but I think > that no one knew the secret. As I was reading this post a thought came to me as to how DD knew of the events at GH. There is no cannon that I know of to prove it, so it's pure theory. But we know from OotP that people in their portraits can move from one location to another. What if there was a portrait hanging in the sitting room of GH and the person portrayed in was also a former Headmaster/mistress? As soon as LV comes in the door the person in the portrait reports to DD who sends Hagrid to retreive Harry, if he's still alive. Do with it what you will. Rosebeth From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat May 1 01:19:53 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 01:19:53 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: <53654447-9A01-11D8-9BBA-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97374 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: I really don't understand why the misanthropy of Snape seems to > cause problems for some. It's a deliberate characterisation, isn't it? Mel comes out of hiding to say Yes, yes! Thank you. Snape is Snape. A rose by any other name and all that. In other words, he's a thorny bastard. Kneasy: > So he seems to hate/dismiss/feel contempt for most of the other > characters in the books. Mel: "Seems" is the operative word here. Snape clearly hates/dismisses/feels contempt for *some* of the other characters in the books. So far Black and James Potter, certainly. The DADA teachers and many of his students are the immediate ones who spring to mind. But look around. There is no evidence that he has anything but civil or at *least* ambivilent feelings for all but the true buffoons on the staff. He has a pleasant rivalry with McG--dare I use the word 'friendship'? He respects DD greatly(or so it seems up to this point, though WHY I don't know given the way DD treats him) and even goes to *Filch* for help, for heaven's sake! In PoA he seems to be on civil speaking terms with Cornelius Fudge. He's a contributing member of the order--I don't recall any of them complaining that he hates everyone. Kneasy: Why not? That is assuming that what we see is what is truly there with no distortions, exaggerations or personal prejudices - remember, we see everything through Harry's eyes, and he ain't exactly objective. Mel: Exactly why "we" have only seen I-hate-everyone!Snape. He may INDEED hate every other person he's ever met in his life. From what we've seen he might have very good reason. But he's done a fair job hiding it. Harry has been a self-centered brat so far, completely self absorbed.(Why doesn't he ask questions? There's a heap of gold in a safe with his name on it and he's NEVER asked where it came from. He had grandparents, who were they? And etcetera.) It should come as no surprise that, by Harry's reasoning (what there is of it) since Snape (appears to) hate(s) Harry, he, by extension, hates EVERYONE. I'm sincerely hoping that Harry's self-absorption reached its peak (for the reader nadir) and he will now come out of himself enough to see that although he likely plays a very important role in things, he is NOT alone. Kneasy: > True, JKR reckons he's not at all nice, possibly sadistic, vindictive, all that good stuff that upsets some fans, but he is essential. Mel: I'd say seminal. I'm putting my cards on the table here and saying "No Snape, No Story." As to his personality, if he'd been Lupin he'd have been dead by now. JKRowling quote (sorry don't remember exactly which interview it was): "Don't worry about Snape, he's tough." Kneasy: > Snape, of course. Essentially his function is as the everyday presence > that makes Harry's life a misery. Splendid! Mel: Someone's gotta do it. Really. Someone has to. Kneasy: All I hope is that he stays in character right to > the end - and the hints from JKR is that he will. > So I have high hopes; Snape, the most interesting personality in the books by far, will not go belly up, join the Band of Hope, sign the pledge and start a campaign for the rehabilitation of distressed DEs. Mel: AMEN. For better or worse, as long as he stays Snape, he's alright with me. Melpomene From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 01:38:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 01:38:52 -0000 Subject: Mandatory mandrakes (Was: Albus Dumbledore: the myth and the man) In-Reply-To: <20040424015758.3769.qmail@web14802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97375 -> Carol: > It's fortunate that the mandrakes happened to be on hand, but there's > no need to assume that they were there because Dumbledore anticipated > needing them to revive petrified students. It's quite possible that > Mandrakes are simply part of the Herbology curriculum for second-year > student, who need to know about them for their OWLs in another three > years. > > > > SB4E: > > I'm not arguing that they were there for the reasons that have been brought up in this thread...but if they are part of the curriculum for 2nd year, why would they need to procure them? Shouldn't they always have them on hand? After all, there is a 2nd year class every year at Hogwarts. > Carol: True. But the whole idea of the herbology class is to *raise* the mandrakes, so they have to start out with baby ones, not the previous year's crop. But because (I'm assuming) there are many uses for mandrakes, and not just Madame Pomfrey but Snape as well frequently needs them for potions, their lives are cut short before they can make it into each other's pots to breed. Better to chop them up for magical uses than to have promiscuously breeding mandrakes in the greenhouse for second years to see! ;-) Seriously, I think each year's crop of mandrakes gives up its life to science, Hogwarts style. So Madam Pomfrey would have to order new baby mandrakes every year, but off the page because Harry wouldn't be aware of it. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 02:02:14 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 02:02:14 -0000 Subject: The names in the Goblet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97376 Sue wrote: > If not the loss (temporary or permanent) of power then what could > compel DD to allow Harry to continue? We do not know the power of > the Goblet of Fire, it was never explained. We only know that > entering a name is a binding contract. Perhaps the Goblet simply > pulls any contract breakers through the veil or some other magical > form of death penalty. > > Here's a question...Will the Goblet of Fire be back? Does it, like > the Sorting Hat, have other powers which will prove useful to one > side or the other? Carol: I think it was Harry who was compelled to compete, not DD who was compelled to allow him to continue. As we've already discussed, he knew it was a binding contract and neither of them had any alternative. (I agree with Steve that the paper with Harry's name on it probably didn't list a school--he would still be the only one in his category--and maybe Crouch!Moody's explanation of what the "powerful Dark witch or wizard" did might not be *exactly* what the did, though it was certainly close enough.) As for what the compulsion was, I think it was simply being compelled to compete. That is, your feet will take you to the tournament, wand in hand, whether you want to be there or not and whether or not you're ready. (We might have seen something along those lines if Dobby hadn't shown up, gillyweed in hand, ten minutes before the second task.) My guess regarding the goblet is that it's usually given to the winning school, which hosts the next tournament, and Dumbledore had it on hand because Gryffindor won the earlier tournament. It might even have been on display in the trophy room during Harry's earlier years at Hogwarts, but unmentioned because he didn't notice it (and it had no role to play in those books). I don't imagine it's on display now, though, because of the death of Cedric and other unfortunate events surrounding this particular tournament. And I don't think Cedric's parents would want it as a souvenir. IMO, we won't see it again; it's played its role, and the next tournament, if any, would not be held for at least five years--after the HP series is over. I can't see Dumbledore trying again at that point, anyway. His motive this time around was to try to recruit allies to help him oppose Voldemort. In five more years, VW1 will be over. As we know, it ends some time in the summer after Harry's seventh year! Carol, who certainly didn't expect to write four paragraphs about a goblet! From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com Sat May 1 02:08:44 2004 From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (SiriusBlack4Eternity) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arthur and Molly -- How old are they? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040501020844.7092.qmail@web14807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97377 Geoff Bannister wrote: Geoff: My only problem with them being between 65 and 73 in 1995 is that would put them at 51 to 59 when Ginny was born and between 50 and 58 when Ron arrived. That could be reasonable for Arthur but, unless there are different biological "clocks" for witches, it's extremely late for someone to carry two children within a year or so of each other. SB4E: Not saying they are that old, but considering that DD is 15o and still going...it might be possible in the WW... SiriusBlack4Eternity --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 02:10:01 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 02:10:01 -0000 Subject: What about Tonks? Evil or good? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > So what do you think the chances are that Tonks will morph into > another character but will be found out due to her clumsiness? > > If she is evil will she morph into Voldemort, or one of the children, > to lure Harry into a trap? And will someone realize that it is her > when she falls down a flight of stairs? Tonks? Evil? I don't know. She is very underdeveloped yet for me to bet either way. I doubt it though. I think her main function in the narrative is to foreshadow Harry's metamorphagus (did I even spell it right? :o)) abilities. Although with JKR you never know. Maybe by the end of the book 6 Tonks will become one of the main characters. :o) Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 02:24:56 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 02:24:56 -0000 Subject: Conspiracy Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97379 Geoff wrote: > The point I am reiterating in this ramble is that, as I have said > previously, I wonder whether Jo Rowling has her story planned to the > level of intricacy that we seem to believe. Whether every second word > needs to be analysed? Why was the passive tense used there? Why a > conditional clause here? With all the combined thinking power we can > field, it is possible that we are putting in more nuances and > subtleties than JKR has in fact considered. She has a set plan in her > mind and has presumably constructed the plot to lead us to that > point; she may not have thought of some of the variant > interpretations which we, in our little corner of the hothouse behind > the cacti, have managed to produce to satisfy our take of the story. > > Great will be the cheers (or the gnashing of teeth) on "dies irae, > dies illa" ** when all will be revealed in Book 7, a book which I > think we shall all open with trepidation, apprehension and hopefully > satisfaction as we seek to find whether our pet theory has achieved > congruence with that of the spinner of the web which has drawn us > together in the group. Carol: While I agree entirely about inadequately snipped posts full of repetitious material and brilliant discoveries being made for the 200th time (okay, that's my hyperbole, not yours!), I do think there's something to be said for examining seemingly insignificant details (other than the red herring vs. clue variety, which are obviously important and don't need defending). The passive voice is one such important detail. Why? Because its chief use is to obscure meaning (which it also does if used carelessly rather than deliberately). That's why why sociologists love it and bureaucrats like Mafalda Hopkirk of the MoM use it so frequently, and it's also why English teachers try to pound it out of their students with red pen. (Forgive the mixed metaphor--I know you can't pound with a pen, at least not very effectively.) My point is that if it appears in a memo or a speech by Dumbledore, that memo or speech becomes ambiguous because the doer of the action is concealed--and could, in theory, be anybody. As for passive tense, if you ever encounter an example, please point it out to me. It will be a highly unusual grammatical construction, rarer than thestrals at the local zoo. :-) BTW, I doubt that Book 7 will have *all* the answers even if JKR intends it to. Even when the series is completed, different readers will still have different interpretations. If that weren't the case, there would be no such field as literary criticism. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 02:38:09 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 02:38:09 -0000 Subject: could Dumbledore be Hermes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97380 Gina wrote-- People have mentioned Dumbledore as animagus. Could Dumbledore be Hermes? (unsigned post:) I think Dumbledore is certainly Hermes or at least a representative of him. Hermes is a huge figure in alchemical lore, which Dumbledore is closely associated with. The Phoenix is also an important image in alchemy. In fact the series is saturated with alchemical imagery. I (Carol) responded: I think Gina meant Hermes, Percy's "handsome screech owl," who is now with Percy and ergo can't possibly be Dumbledore. > caesian commented: Well, yes, but I do think that the points made by Gina about Alchemy are very interesting! Maybe Gina should start a new thread on Alchemical Symbolism. Carol: Actually Gina asked the question and the post on alchemy was unsigned. I should have gone up thread to find out whose it was but I was in a hurry. Sorry about that! (It turns out to be someone called snipsnapsnurr.) That's why we need to sign our posts and snip carefully, so our own points won't be misattributed we'll give credit where credit is due. Carol, who sincerely hopes she got the attributions right! From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com Sat May 1 02:39:03 2004 From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 02:39:03 -0000 Subject: CHP 17 DISCUSSION, II: Education Decree Number Twenty-Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_rude_mechanical" wrote: > Harry climbs up to the classroom, still angry. And he's not alone. > Trelawney is busy throwing copies of "The Dream Oracle" at all the > students, at one point knocking Neville completely off his chair. > I'm sorry, his "pouf." Harry divines (oh, the cleverness of me!) > that > Sybil has received the results of DeeJay's inspection, and they are > not favourable. Trelawney admits that she has been insulted and > accused-of what, we are left to guess. She lets us know, in her > rampage, that she has been employed for sixteen years at Hogwarts. > She spends the rest of the lesson muttering under her breath about > DeeJay. > > ~~I'm still not sure why DD hired Trelawney. Just because of the > prophecy? Who was teaching Divination before they hired her? > Anyone?~~ Heather replies: I gathered from future scenes with Trelawney (when she gets fired) that DD had hired her to provide a safe and secure home for her to protect her from LV. I think that her emotional breakdown in the entrance lobby was deathly fear that she was going to be ousted from Hogwarts and left on her own against LV. She may not remember her actual prophesies, but she surely knows that it was a special prophecy which made DD hire her in the first place, and she is probably quite afraid of LV and what he would do to her in order to hear the prophesy himself. I think that this opinion is backed up by the fact that DD will not allow her to leave Hogwarts even after she has been fired by Umbridge. Also, she seems to be a little more rational after DD informs the whole school that she will not have to leave Hogwarts From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 03:06:18 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 03:06:18 -0000 Subject: Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97385 > Earendil wrote: > I can picture some kind of 3 steps progression of the use of > wandless magic through a wizard's life: > > Step 1: random uncontrolled use during childhood, especially when > strong emotions are involved. > Step 2: the wizard/witch has learned to control his magic through > the wand and incantations; the use of wandless magic becomes scarce. > Step 3: the wizard/witch masters his/her magic enough to be able to > use it without wand/incantation Carol: I think there's another step between your steps 2 and 3. (Call it step 3 and your step 3, step 4): doing spells with your wand without speaking the spell aloud. Snape does this rather frequently to, say, write a potion recipe on the board or to clean up a spill. I seem to recall DD also using silent wand magic, but I don't remember a particular instance offhand. > Jim Ferer wrote: What does a wand do? I always thought about a wand as being like a projector lens or a speaking trumpet, something that directs and focuses magical energy. Without one, the magic sort of dribbles out all over. The same amount of magical watts may have been expended, but it wouldn't seem like it. Carol: I'm not sure whether I agree with this idea or not. I think a wand does serve as a conduit, but it's also magical in itself or it wouldn't require a core of "a powerful magical substance." You could just pick up a snare drum stick or any similarly sized piece of wood, point it at the object, and speak the spell. But we all know that would never work, any more than you can do magic with a Fred/George manufactured "funny wand." (A Weasley creation, as Mr. Ollivander would say.) Also, I'm a firm believer in the wand choosing the wizard: that is, especially in the case of wizards who have a strong but latent talent for some particular skill (charms or animagism or whatever), certain combinations of core and wood are better than others. Yew plus phoenix feather is the perfect combination for Voldemort, for example, since both the core and the wood are associated with immortality. I also think that wands, like the Sorting Hat and a few other enchanted objects we've seen, are sentient. They don't just "hear" and act on a spell, they can sense the thought behind the magic. Otherwise silent spells wouldn't work. Notice, though, that whatever that curse was that Dolohov used was weaker after he'd been Silencio'd than it would have been if he'd been able to speak it properly, and Neville's father's wand didn't respond at all when he said "Stubefy!" although if it had been his own wand and he'd been concentrating more on the spell (hard to do amid the chaos), the spell might have been effective. It also senses the power and the intent behind the spell, in essence reading the spell caster's mind, which is one reason why Harry's Crucio was so feeble and Bella's so horribly effective. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that a wand does more than simply focus a spell as a speaking trumpet focuses sound. It's magical in itself (though of course it can't do magic without a wizard controlling it). I don't think, though, that a Muggle could use a wand. If they could, then a Squib could certainly do magic, and Filch wouldn't be taking mail order courses and Mrs. Figg would be able to "transfigure a teabag." Evidently the wand senses the absence of magical power and even if the Squib or Muggle says the magic words, no magic comes out. Carol From msmerymac at yahoo.com Sat May 1 00:07:22 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 00:07:22 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Molly -- How old are they? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97388 > > Geoff: > > My only problem with them being between 65 and 73 in 1995 is that > > would put them at 51 to 59 when Ginny was born and between 50 and 58 > > when Ron arrived. > > > > That could be reasonable for Arthur but, unless there are different > > biological "clocks" for witches, it's extremely late for someone to > > carry two children within a year or so of each other. > > TJ: Well, if witches and wizards live to 150 having a baby at > 50 is NOT very old. In fact and my math is not the best but, that > would put Molly quite early in a wizarding life at 50, not even the > half way mark just the 1/3 mark.. so she would only be in her say > early 30's. Luckie: I agree with Geoff, but to add to his point, if Arthur and Molly met at Hogwarts and married right after school, they waited an awfully long time to have children. Even supposing Charlie is 7 years older than Percy, and Bill 2 years older than him (I'm not even going to bring up the fact that would mean Bill would be 27 and dating an 18 year old... oh wait, I just did), Arthur and Molly would have been married for around 20-25 years before Bill was born, and then had 7 kids in 12 years? I know many married couples want to enjoy a few years to themselves before having children, but it seems implausible, especially if they were planning on having that big of a family. And we know that wizards DO have children when they are younger, since Lily and James were married right after Hogwarts and had Harry almost right away. ~Luckie, who thinks Charlie is 22, Bill is 24, and Arthur and Molly are in their 50s. From miranda_mcgonagall37 at yahoo.ca Sat May 1 01:59:48 2004 From: miranda_mcgonagall37 at yahoo.ca (Nicole Lewis) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 21:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arthur and Molly -- How old are they? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040501015948.18733.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97389 Miranda here: I've always had a little theory about how old Molly and Arthur are and when they went to Hogwarts. I'm newish to the group so I apologize if this is old news. I've always thought that they were both born in 1948, went to Hogwarts from 1959-1966, and then Molly had Bill later that year (meaning she became pregnant at school...) That would make them 48 at the end of OotP. While they were at school Hagrid could've been an assistant to Ogg, who Molly speaks of at one point (in Gof?) Anyone care to debunk my theory and prove it wrong? --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 03:35:05 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 03:35:05 -0000 Subject: questions on FBAWTFT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "khilari2000" wrote: > Lara: > > > > Question # 4: > > I think Our Dear Severus was trying to find something wrong with > > what Luin gave as information. He might just say that to say > > something to the contrary of what Lupin said. It could be that > > Kappas also "went to" Mongolia, like Fries, which are Belgian > > originally, but can be found everywhere in many different countries. > > (not that good of an analogy, but the best I could come up with). > > Either way, it's kind of irrelavant. > > > Thanks for answering, you are probably right about Winky. I am not > sure whether Snape being wrong about kappas is irrelevent. I agree it > is unlikely to have a bearing on the story, but it bothers me just > because it seems a strange mistake to make. If he was trying to pick > holes in Lupin's teaching, surely claiming that Lupin was wrong when > any student could verify he was right just by looking it up is rather > a stupid thing to do. I admit this bugs me far more than it ought to. Carol: It's possible that it's JKR who made the mistake. There are definite inconsistencies within the series, many of which have been discussed here repeatedly. An inconsistency between two books by the same author, one part of the series and the other not, might not be worth worrying about. It was probably just a fact she forgot to check, like Nearly Headless Nick's death year. I really doubt that she intended for Snape to be wrong there. It's not in character, and as you say, the students, especially Hermione, would have caught it. "Excuse me, Professor Snape, but turn to page 394. . . ." Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 03:40:22 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 03:40:22 -0000 Subject: Curious thought about Portraits - How Many? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97391 Sue wrote: The only example of a living portrait for a live person is Gilderoy Lockhart. The portraits of him in his office are very much alive but we never hear them talk. Carol: Aren't they photos? I think the portrait may be movie contamination, but I confess I didn't check. In the book, portraits talk, photos don't. They're rather like the little miniature of Viktor Krum, which looks and acts just him but doesn't speak. (I hope it didn't feel the pain when Ron pulled its arm off!) Carol From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 05:09:33 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 22:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bellatrix's 'French' accent on the Audio tape/cd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040501050933.98674.qmail@web50001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97392 Luckie: What /is/ going on with Voldemort and Bellatrix? I know we don't have a lot of canon on Mrs. Lestrange, but what does everyone think? Is it really a romantic involvement, one of those "intellectual-affairs," or just a deep, deep admiration? I think it would be hard to carry on an affair under the nose of her husband and brother-in-law, but that could also relate to the arranged wizard marriage argument. I lot of people think there's something weird between the two. I'm not sure if there are subtle clues in canon, our suspicious natures, or if it's just a common theme in fanfiction. (And, forgive me, but the evil dark lord master and his witchy wench sounds a little too close to kinky role play for me to ignore the relationship completely.) ~Luckie My reply: Well, to answer your question. There is some cannon to back it up in some ways. For example, we don't know what happened to Lestrange. Did he die? Is he there but just doesn't talk? Honestly, if he is still around I think it is clear who holds the cards in that relationship and it's Bellatrix. Voldemort seems to care for Bella more than some of the other Death Eaters. He calls her Bella, not just Lestrange or something degrading. However, so does Lucius, so that does not mean much. But Lucius probably does see Bella as a sister so that could be why. Now there is the whole reasoning for him coming into the Ministry of Magic the night of Sirius' death. He (Voldie) may have just come to deal with Harry, but I'm not sure if that is truly the case. I think part of him came to protect Bellatrix. It was also during that scene where Harry, building up with anger started to use unforgivable curses. I think deep down part of Voldie was afraid that he was going to loose his "most faithful death eater." And instead of leaving her lying there on the ground. Instead of sending her to Azkaban (I'm sure he had other servants that were not there...actually we know he had at least one!) He made sure to grab her on his way out. Yes, it can be read into more than is there. But there is something special about there relationship. And there is some reason why Bella is a death eater when the other women are not. Voldie does't seem like he would be big on woimen's rights. I could be wrong about that though! ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 05:22:43 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 22:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What about Tonks? Evil or good? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040501052243.80180.qmail@web50003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97393 vmonte wrote: If she is evil will she morph into Voldemort, or one of the children, to lure Harry into a trap? And will someone realize that it is her when she falls down a flight of stairs? My reply: I don't think she is evil, why? Well, I mean for all practical purposes her lineage would suggest that she isn't. I have no proof but my guess she was in Gryffindor, I just believe that her mother, Andromeda, was. I think perhaps that might have encouraged Sirius to go into the house, or at least helped him to decide that. And if nothing else we can all agree that standing up to your very evil family and marrying a muggle born is extremely brave! For that reason alone I just can't see Tonks being evil. She was brought up in a family where the death eater attitude was not looked highly upon. She isn't even on the Black family tree and well, while she is clumsy at some points. I've noticed that this is very observable in scenes where she appears to be nervous. I'm sorry Molly is enough to make me nervous and knock things over also. However, she does appear to be able to control it a good portion of the time. So no I don't think she is evil. She is one of those characters that one would have to really prove hard that she is evil. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat May 1 05:24:05 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 05:24:05 -0000 Subject: FILK: Can I Prevail In My Seekerness? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97394 The latest from H.M.S. Dumbledore ? In the Gilbert and Sullivan original, this is nearly 10 minutes of continuous music ? even with the generous amount of repetition that they always throw in, this is still the longest single filk I've ever written. Can I Prevail In My Seekerness (PS/SS, Chap. 11) To the tune of Can I Survive This Overbearing? ? i.e., the Act I finale of Gilbert and Sullivan's H.M.S. Pinafore Text and MIDI at: http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/pinafore/web_opera/pn12.html Dedicated to Eric Oppen THE SCENE: HARRY'S debut in Quidditch, not without both incident and revelation. HARRY (Recit.) Can I prevail in my Seekerness Or fight off all this knee weakerness? Yet I am now a Gryffindor res'dent Some say they would have me for pres'dent! HARRY & GQT: Teammates, ahoy! It's Lee! It's Lee! Aye, aye, my boy, Emcee will he! Now give us, pray, Your play-by-play, Hear what he'll say? Emcee will he! LEE JORDAN The Quaffle goes to Angie J. She passes it to our Ms. Spinnet But Flint acts in a mangy way Through dirty tricks they scheme to win it SQT Ah, cool one! Ah, cool one! LEE JORDAN She scores a goal! Oho! Oho! It's ten to oh, it's ten to oh LEE JORDAN & GRYFFINDOR FANS: Now they are hit! Wood makes the save! Marcus responds with his worst blow Ol' Slytherin's players are but knaves But they shall not defeat us! No, no! QUIRRELL. Now he is hit, his plight is grave Young Harry P. to woe will go The Gryffindors may think him brave He soon must fall ? look out below! LEE JORDAN & GRYFFINDOR FANS: (as Quirrel sings previous verse again) Bludgers are blocked! Goal posts are near! Now Johnson clears the field ahead! Give our Bell lion-hearted cheers This time we'll be the victors, instead! HARRY My friends, loss of control I'm finding, For high, my broom, my broom is climbing; When I am gone, oh, prithee tell My team that, when I died, quite hard I fell! LEE JORDAN & GQT: (turning away, weeping). Of broom, alas, control he's losing, For ah! He's headed for a bruising HERMIONE: This deed past Snape we cannot put So let's give, me to him, a red hotfoot LEE JORDAN & GQT: Rejoice, my teammates all Our Harry now has fought it? Not to the earth he'll fall! HARRY (with the Snitch in his mouth) Ah! ennagame ? Icautit! LEE JORDAN & GQT: Ah! Ennagame ? icautit? WOOD (incredulously). Caught it? FRED: Caught it? ALL: Yes, yes ? ah, yes, he caught it! LEE JORDAN & GQT: Oh joy, the capture of the Snitch We now shall praise in perfect pitch That Slytherin has been bought low Our record now is one and oh Harry's won the contest! The draught of triumph we'll drain full As we delight McGonagall This year the House Cup we'll win back Let others cobb and haversack, We know that we're the best SNAPE He thinks in skill he's overrich Due to his winning in Quidditch He does not see his foulest foe Is working hard to bring him low And that makes me depressed Although I find the lad quite dull I've saved him from a broken skull Through magic methods bright or black I'll battle off ev'ry attack Upon that worthless pest LEE JORDAN & GQT (as Snape repeats previous verse): Oh joy, the capture of the Snitch We now shall praise in perfect pitch For Slytherin has been bought low Our record now is one and oh Harry's won the contest! (Exit SNAPE & QUIRRELL. As the cheering throng breaks up a bit, HERMIONE & RON share their suspicions of SNAPE) HERMIONE: This very day RON: Did Sevvy Snape HARRY: An evil jinx HERMIONE: Place in your way RON: Narrow escape HARRY: Right from the brink HERMIONE: A dog stands guard HARRY: He watches what? RON: In Snapey steals HERMIONE: He gets bit hard HARRY: What is his plot? RON: What is the deal? TRIO & GQT: This very day, etc. HAGRID: Forbear, ev'ry misgiving you must ban He is a teacher ? Dumble's right-hand man MYOB you had all better damn well Ask not of Fluffy nor of Nicky Flamel TRIO: Speak, Hagrid, speak You must tell! Speak, Hagrid, speak Who's Flamel? HAGRID: Now it was merely a slip of tongue - To know this stuff you're far too young Of Nicky F. and of Dumbledore And Fluffy of the canine roar (The Trio skip merrrily & teasingly around HAGRID) TRIO: Fla, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, Fla, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, Fla, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, Flamel. Fla, la, la, etc. TRIO: Though it may have been a slip of tongue A brand new clue upon us sprung Of Nicky F. and of Dumbledore And Fluffy of the canine roar HERMIONE & RON For the kid with scar has a single goal He shares with his two allies HARRY We've pledged that we'll detect what the thing is they protect Keeping it safe from bad guys TRIO (with GQT joining in, with appropriate pronoun changes) Our lips are stiff in their upper part We have become a team In unity of will we experience a thrill Focusing like a laser beam The books we'll read and the halls explore We'll open gates and the dog make snore We'll burn the vine and we'll snatch the key And we'll solve each puzzle that they pose us logically (The TRIO raise their wands a la The Three Musketeers) We have our wits and we have our wands We'll play the game though we start as pawns We'll cross the board through a Knight's gambit In other words, we're gonna do the whole damn bit! (The Whole Damn Bit is repeated extensively by the TRIO and the GQT ? Exeunt Omnes, triumphant & determined) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 05:57:46 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 05:57:46 -0000 Subject: DD: an appreciation (Was Re: Snape, A Murderer?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97395 "Bone of the father, unwittingly given, you will renew your son!" (GoF Am. ed. 641) > > > > Is there some significant concept here that I'm missing, or are you just correcting egregious errors in reproducing quotations? Carol, with a sigh of frustration: I was reacting to your "Tut, tut!" (you sound like Hermione) and the accusation of not checking my sources. I did check them, and I was correct in saying that "unwittingly given" relates to "bone of the father." That's the only point I was making. Carol From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 1 06:09:24 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 06:09:24 -0000 Subject: Remus & Sirius - How Dumbledore Knew. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97396 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "newdella" wrote: > > As I was reading this (snipped) post, a thought came to me as to how > DD knew of the events at GH. There is no cannon that I know of to > prove it, so it's pure theory. But we know from OotP that people in > their portraits can move from one location to another. What if there > was a portrait hanging in the sitting room of GH and the person > portrayed in was also a former Headmaster/mistress? As soon as LV > comes in the door the person in the portrait reports to DD who sends > Hagrid to retreive Harry, if he's still alive. > > Do with it what you will. > > Rosebeth bboy_mn: Excellent point, but I want to make one small adjustment to it. It wouldn't have to be a portrait of a Headmaster/Headmistress. It appears the Hogwarts is filled with many many, perhaps hundreds, of historic portraits. Example, the Fat Lady must have some historic significants, but it's very doubtful that she was a headmistress. Many of the historic portrait are probably just general wizarding history, and not necessarily Hogwarts related history. Example; the portrait opposite the Room of Requirements is a painting of some idiot trying to train Trolls for ballet. So, the portrait at Godric's Hollow in the Potters house would more likely be someone from general history rather than specifically Hogwarts history. If there are matching historical portraits at both Hogwarts and Potters then the person in the portrait could come to his/her own portrait at Hogwarts, and from there move through the other portraits until he/she made their way to Dumbledore's office. Prior to your suggestions, I guessed that perhaps there were other wizards in the village who may not have been able to see the Potter's house, but certainly would have had a hard time missing a huge house demolishing explosion. They heard the explosion, thought it might be DE's, or perhaps even saw Voldemort and some DE's, and informed Dumbledore. Sadly, that particular theory has more holes than Swiss cheeze. So from now on, I'm going with your theory. It seems reasonable that even if Dumbledore wasn't involved the Secret Keeper Spell, he would have wanted some way to keep track of the Potters. Common portraits between Dumbedore and the Potters would have been the perfect solution. It gave Dumbledore eyes and ears, but at the same time didn't reveal the secret of the location. Works for me. bboy_mn From snapesmate at hotmail.com Sat May 1 06:25:35 2004 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 06:25:35 -0000 Subject: some questions about transfiguration and wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97397 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Meredith" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > wrote: > > "theadimail" wrote: > > > Hi, > > > I was reading Book 3 again last night and I was struck by > > something > > > about Peter's transformation when he killed those 12 people. I > was > > > wondering what had happened to his wand? > > > > Potioncat: > > Given that McGonagall transfigures herself in front of students in > > the classroom, I would say wand and clothing become part of the > > animagus. > > Luckie: > > When McGonagall transfigures, the cat she becomes has markings around > it's eyes that look like spectacles (this was at the beginning of > PS/SS, and possibly other places), so I assume that clothing becomes > a part of you, and possibly other items/possessions, such as a wand, > if it is in your pocket or hand. > > ~Luckie JKR has stated in several interviews, that whatever "posessions" they (animagi) have on their person, are retained when they transform. I think it is a bit odd that an animagus' clothing turns into its fur, feathers, scales, etc. but yet from what I have seen, transforming Lupin the werewolf's clothing tears. I am going by the action figure type toys I have seen from the PoA film. Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice guy! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 06:40:44 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 06:40:44 -0000 Subject: Bode's murderer (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97398 caesian wrote: > Who murdered Broderick Bode, and why? > We know that the sallow-skinned, unblinking Bode, of the sepulchral voice and very mournful face [OotP 135 US H] is first identified to Harry as an Unspeakable ("From the Department of Mysteries, top-secret, no idea what they get up to") by Mr. Weasley at the > Quidditch World Cup, in the company of his fellow Unspeakable Croaker [GoF 79 UK H]. > > As of yet, Bode's murder is unsolved, but there are a few odd bits of information floating around that could pertain. > > 1) It seems probable the murder was committed by someone who knew him (and who we know), so who were his associates? Bode has only two known associates, his colleague Croaker and his old visitor (and these could be one and the same). In addition, there are the dubious "associates" Lucius Malfoy, who held him under the Imperius Curse, and Avery, who evidently suggested to Voldemort that Bode would be able to remove the prophecy and was punished for it later. We know little about Avery, and do not know why he would have suggested Bode could do this. > We have never been given a description or full name of Bode's colleague Croaker, but he seems a likely candidate as the old visitor, because he is Bode's one named associate. (According to the HPLexicon, "croaker" - someone who habitually predicts evil; it has that > sense because croaking is a noise made by crows and ravens, who really are death omens as they are carrion eaters -- MLW.) > > However, Croaker is also an Unspeakable, and the likelihood that he was privy to the plan that Bode should attempt to remove the prophecy seems small - he should know, as Rookwood did, that Bode would be unable to do it. Therefore, while I do not rule him out as the visitor, I don't think he's an agent of Voldemort. > > Another possibility is that the visitor was the stooped, very old, and feeble-voiced member of the Committee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures. We could probably expect Harry, Ron or Hermione to recognize this wizard if they saw him, although it was clear that he was ahead of them in the cue, and they may not have seen his face. Bode might not have known this wizard, but as he was completely addled at the time of the visit, it doesn't make much difference. > > So, I suppose we must ask ourselves, what does the murder of Bode portend? (groan!) Carol: Only a few comments on this long and interesting post, which I hope I've snipped sufficiently without losing the thread of the argument. First, you ask why Avery would have suggested that Bode might be able to remove the Prophecy if he were Imperio'd. I think the answer is simple: He's an Unspeakable who works in the DoM. Croaker would presumably have been the alternate choice. Second, the name Croaker may suggest a raven, but it also suggests the slang verb "to croak," meaning to die. So Croaker's name doesn't bode any better than Bode's does. (The names struck me immediately when I first read them in GoF: Uh oh. These two are going to be early victims in the war.) Third, a think the old visitor may be a red herring. He arrives at about the same time the gifts are sent anonymously, but he isn't carrying them when Harry hears him ask about Bode. He could just be Bode's old father or grandfather coming for a visit. (He probably isn't the Death Eater Nott, unless Nott is in disguise. LV doesn't want any tottering old DEs with ear trumpets.) The ear trumpet does seem like the kind of detail that JKR uses when she briefly alludes to a character in disguise--compare the large nose of the "witch" in the Hog's Head pressing against "her" veil. So the visitor could be a genuine old man or he could be a spy (good or evil) or he could be the murderer. But since he wasn't carrying the plant or the calendar and Healer Strout says they were sent anonymously, not brought by a visitor, he probably isn't the murderer. He probably visited briefly, saw that any attempt at conversation was futile, and left before Harry and the others arrived. As for what the murder bodes, I'm not sure. I would have thought, based on his name, that Croaker would be next, but with the DEs in Azkaban and the Prophecy orb broken, he's probably safe. Carol, who thinks that Malfoy sent the plant and the calendar and wonders what the fancy hippogriffs portend From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat May 1 06:49:59 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 06:49:59 -0000 Subject: Conspiracy Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97399 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol: > While I agree entirely about inadequately snipped posts full of > repetitious material and brilliant discoveries being made for the > 200th time (okay, that's my hyperbole, not yours!), I do think there's > something to be said for examining seemingly insignificant details. > The passive voice is one such > important detail. Why? Because its chief use is to obscure meaning > (which it also does if used carelessly rather than deliberately). > That's why why sociologists love it and bureaucrats like Mafalda > Hopkirk of the MoM use it so frequently, and it's also why English > teachers try to pound it out of their students with red pen. Geoff: This reminds me of a quote I always keep at the back of my mind about the passive tense. It occurs in John Wyndham's brilliant sci-fi novel "The Kraken Wakes" - well worth reading although it's quite old now. '"For present purposes, the danger area is being reckoned as anything over four thousand." said Dr.Matet. "What?" I exclaimed wildly. "Fathoms" added Dr.Matet. "Twenty-four thousand feet, darling. you multiply by six," said Phyllis kindly. She ignored my thanks and went on to Dr.Matet: "And what depth did you advise as marking the danger area, Doctor?" "How do you know I did not advise four thousand fathoms, Mrs.Watson?" "Use of the passive, Doctor Matet - 'is being reckoned'" Phyllis told him smiling sweetly. "And there are people who claim that French is the subtle language," he said.' Since reading that many years ago, I have always been suspicious of the passive tense...... Beware of JKR's bearing passives. (Might lead to your Trojan horse). From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 1 06:59:47 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 06:59:47 -0000 Subject: Kappa - is Snape or Lupin Correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97400 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "khilari2000" wrote: > > Lara: > > > > > > Question # 4: > > > I think Our Dear Severus was trying to find something wrong with > > > what Luin gave as information. He might just say that to say > > > something to the contrary of what Lupin said. It could be that > > > Kappas also "went to" Mongolia, ... but can be found everywhere > > > in many different countries. > > > > > > > ???????: > > > > ... I am not sure whether Snape being wrong about kappas is > > irrelevent. I agree it is unlikely to have a bearing on the story, > > but it bothers me just because it seems a strange mistake to make. > > If he was trying to pick holes in Lupin's teaching, surely > > claiming that Lupin was wrong when any student could verify ... > > > Carol: > It's possible that it's JKR who made the mistake. ... I really doubt > that she intended for Snape to be wrong there. It's not in > character, and as you say, the students, especially Hermione, would > have caught it. "Excuse me, Professor Snape, but turn to page 394. . > . ." > > Carol bboy_mn: Did you know that one of the most common rats in the USA is the Norwegian rat? The Kappa is a Japanese Water Demon, and Mongolia is a lot closer to Japan than England is. It's reasonable that Kappas exist in many parts of the world, but they would seem more likely to NOW exist in secluded areas like Mongolia rather than in heavily populated areas like Japan or Britian. Since we don't know what the student's paper said, it's difficult for us to determine if Snape was actually wrong. Maybe the student paper was referring to where in Europe you would most commonly find a Kappa, and Snape was referring to where in the world at large. In that case, both Snape and Lupin would be correct. I think Snape was just looking for any excuse to discredit Lupin, but I don't think in doing so he would fabricate totally false information; perhaps misleading, but not totally false. Don't know if that helps the discussion at all, but that's where I stand. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 1 07:27:22 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 07:27:22 -0000 Subject: DD: an appreciation: Love Shield - Magic of Two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > Kneasy wrote: > > How the hell does DD come to be involved in Lily's > > 'sacrifice'charm? It reads as if he thinks that he arranged it, > > that it's not the automatic protection given by Lily's death and > > it's continuationthrough Petunia that many readers assume. > > "Unwittingly given" as Voldy says in the graveyard. And if DD did > > arrange it, it had to be planned in advance. > > I (Carol) responded: > > > > > > As for "unwittingly given," those words relate to Voldemort's > > father and his bits of bone, not to Lily's sacrifice. > > > > > > > > Kneasy answered: > > Tut tut. > > > > "His mother died in the attempt to save him - and unwittingly > > provided him with a protection I had not foreseen....I could not > > touch the boy." > > > > > > Kneasy > > > > > > Carol, quoting canon: > > > > "Bone of the father, unwittingly given, you will renew your son!" > > (GoF Am. ed. 641) > > > Kneasy: > > Is there some significant concept here that I'm missing, or are you > just correcting egregious errors in reproducing quotations? > > If you cast your mind back, this started with a consideration of > DD's explication in which he says that *he* placed the spell that > eventually protected Harry and Voldy ups and says that Harry was > unwittingly provided with protection by Lily. ...edited... > > Kneasy bboy_mn: I think there is something that you are both missing, either that, or I completely misunderstand the discussion. (Never let that stop me before.) The Love Shield Magic is comprised of TWO, count them TWO, parts. Part 1- Love's Sacrifice When Lily sacrificed herself for Harry, she left him with a lasting protection that ,in all likelihood, prevented Voldemort from killing him. In addition, it protected Harry from Quirrel's evil touch, and while Voldemort can touch Harry now, according the Dumbledore, Harry's mother's sacrifice still protects him. This Sacrifice of Love is an eternal ancient magic in it's own right. Part 2 - The Protection of Blood When if fell upon Dumbledore to protect Harry, he decided that the best protection was to build upon the protection that Lily had already given Harry. So, to 'Love's Sacrifice' he added the 'Protection of Blood'. When Petunia agreed to take Harry in, she sealed the Ancient Magical Blood Protection Charm, and enhanced Harry's protection so that even Voldemort himself, powerful as he is, can not harm Harry while he is in the 'house of his blood'. Dumbledore's effort, in a sense, merged the two protections together to create a very strong, nearly impregnable, safeguard for Harry. However, in my opinion, the merging of the two to create the ultimate protection, doesn't stop the existance of or the protection given by Lily's sacrifice as a separate entity. That love, sacrifice, and protection will alway be there; it is unrelated to any geographic location. It exits within Harry, where ever he may be. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat May 1 08:47:43 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 08:47:43 -0000 Subject: CHP 17 DISCUSSION, II: Education Decree Number Twenty-Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97402 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_b_desert_king" wrote: > > Heather replies: > > I gathered from future scenes with Trelawney (when she gets fired) > that DD had hired her to provide a safe and secure home for her to > protect her from LV. Hickengruendler: I agree and want to add, that the second reason is probably, that he wants Trelawney around, in case that she makes another prediction. In Hogwarts the chance is much higher, that Dumbledore or one of his allies here the prophecy, instead of Voldemort or a Death eater. Hickengruendler From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat May 1 09:00:52 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 09:00:52 -0000 Subject: Neville's home life [was: Shippping - We don't have a clue!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97403 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Meredith" wrote: > > > Sylvia wrote: > > I don't really give a hoot about HH or HR but I really, really want > > Neville to end up with Ginny, if only to bring him into the warmth > of > > the Weasley circle and give the poor lamb a chance to experience > the > > love and security of a close family. > Luckie: > > I'm not saying Harry "deserves" the Weasley family more (as Amy says > in Little Women, "I do not wish to be loved for my family" or > something like that), but the argument can apply to both sides. > But Harry already is a part of the Weasley family, even if he didn't realize it so far. There is no doubt that Molly (and probably Arthur as well) loves him as much as all of their children. He doesn't need to marry Ginny, to become a Weasley. That said, I normally ship Neville with Luna. It's one of two ships I have, the other being Ron/Hermione. I don't really care all that much about Harry and especially Ginny, and therefore don't care with whom they will end up. But I love Neville and Luna and I think both have exactly the strengths to help the other overcoming their weaknesses. Though I must admit that's also true for Neville and Ginny, but it's just a matter of personal preference. :-) About Neville's grandmother: I mostly feel sorry for her. She had a hard life, having to cope with her son's fate. That can't be easy for a mother. Still, I feel annoyed by the way she treats Neville. She is belittling him constantly. She has to realise, that Neville is not Frank, but his own person with his own strength. Hickengruendler From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat May 1 10:39:17 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 10:39:17 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "teilani2002" wrote > Also, IIRC, at the end of OOP, DD tells Fudge that Sirius was there > and fought against the DEs, etc., and that Sirius is INNOCENT. Marianne: Well, no, DD tells Fudge that he will give a half hour of his time to tell him the important points of what happened at the Ministry. He doesn't mention Sirius by name. And, later, when all of this news hits the Daily Prophet, and Hermione sits reading it aloud in the Hospital, again there is no hint of Sirius' involvement. So, while Dumbledore may have said something to Fudge about Sirius, we have no canon evidence of it. Yet. Marianne From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 1 10:48:00 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 10:48:00 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" = > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > YES. When I argued?quite strongly?that Snape's teaching methods are > horrendous, uncalled for, abusive and likely ineffective, I was most > definitely thinking of him in a real life teaching situation. I DO > still believe Snape's methods are *likely* NOT the best way of > reaching Harry and **definitely** NOT the best way of reaching > Neville ["reaching" meaning, effective in helping them to learn]. > In real life Snape's abusive teaching methods [remember, JKR said > that herself!] would be cause for action. But this **is** fiction, > and as you noted above, Snape's role in these stories is to provide > Harry with his Daily Dose of Misery. I would do well to remember > that distinction when Snape pisses me off. > Abusive? Depends on your definitions. Horrendous? Uncalled for? Ineffective? Surely not. IMO our Snapey knows exactly how far he can go before stepping over the line into overkill. His insults and manipulation of student behaviour seems to be nicely calculated to encourage the "I'll show him!" response rather than the "rabbit frozen in the headlights" reaction. I rather approve of his 'you *can* do it, you *will* do it' attitude and when compared to such as Lockhart, who wants everybody to love him, Snape is a very effective teacher indeed. He lays it on the line at the beginning of his first lesson when in effect he says that the students will do it his way and that no excuses will be accepted. He reiterates his baseline before the OWLs exams - certain standards are expected, nay, essential, before a student will be accepted on his NEWTS course. No exceptions. Very refreshing compared to the current Real World ethic where all too often academic standards seem to be negotiable or over-ridden. Perhaps it is this that some readers find inexcusable. It's no coincidence that Harry and Neville bear the brunt of his ire, not only are they the two candidates for Prophecy glory, but they are also the most frustratingly inept (from his point of view) students in the class. Harry and Neville can't or won't even follow simple instructions that are written out for them. Everybody else does it better on most occasions, but these two - sheesh! Snape must be in dispair - here he is, having joined forces with the Order so as to bring Voldy down, and the supposed saviours of the WW can't cope with a simple recipe or two. Of course, so far as Harry is concerned, he's not at fault. Snape hates him. That's it. That is the explanation for his poor Potions performance. Rubbish. It's *Harry's* attitude that is the problem. He views Snape as the Vernon Dursley of the WW - to be despised, mistrusted and out-manoeuvered if possible. This is a very dangerous mind-set. The two cannot be compared except on a very superficial level; unfortunately this seems to be the level that Harry operates on for much of the time. Such thinking resulted in the death of Sirius. Some may argue differently; why doesn't Snape change? they ask. Why should he need to? He was asked to teach Harry, he's aware of what needs to be done, of how best to tackle the subject; Harry doesn't. He knows that Harry needs to learn, he particularly knows that emotions are counter-productive in mastering the skills that Harry has to absorb. Indeed he tells Harry so, but he might as well be talking to a brick wall. Even DD tells Harry that Voldy sees emotions as weaknesses to be exploited; that's why DD stayed clear of Harry in OoP and it's how Voldy finally got at Harry - his emotions in regard to Sirius. "But Lupin did OK teaching Harry," you'll say. True, but maybe not strictly comparable. Lupin was teaching Harry how to master aspects of wand magic, Snape is in the business of teaching Harry to master aspects of himself - and Harry can't do it - yet. Significantly, JKR said recently that in the next book Harry has to master his own feelings to make himself useful. "Master his own feelings." About what? Snape, perhaps? Kneasy From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 1 11:09:58 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 11:09:58 -0000 Subject: some questions about transfiguration and wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97406 > Lynnette: > JKR has stated in several interviews, that whatever "posessions" they > (animagi) have on their person, are retained when they transform. I > think it is a bit odd that an animagus' clothing turns into its fur, > feathers, scales, etc. but yet from what I have seen, transforming > Lupin the werewolf's clothing tears. I am going by the action figure > type toys I have seen from the PoA film. > > Potioncat: I dont' think the books ever addressed that. I don't think it's at all the same process. Doing the transfiguration magic on yourself can magically include the clothes, but it seems harder to understand that the "illness" of werewolfness(?) would include the clothing. Or maybe I've been influenced by my childhood, watching Lon Cheney, Jr turn into one on Saturday afternoons. Like everything else, it'll be up to JKR. Potioncat (who suddenly feels like one of the goofy fans in Galaxy Quest.) From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat May 1 12:38:50 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 12:38:50 -0000 Subject: Mandatory mandrakes (Was: Albus Dumbledore: the myth and the man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97407 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Seriously, I think each year's crop of mandrakes gives up its life to science, Hogwarts style. So Madam Pomfrey would have to order new baby mandrakes every year, but off the page because Harry wouldn't be aware of it. > Carolyn: As a keen gardener myself, I don't think this is necessarily the case. The classic summer/autumn routine is to save seed from your favourite plants for next year. Generally, this involves picking the seed pods, drying out the seed and storing it in envelopes, but (ahem), possibly we shouldn't delve too deep into the mechanics of this in the case of mandrakes, even though this is an adult discussion group. Another (painful) possibility is the taking of cuttings - again a common gardening technique to increase your stock plants, or to over-winter potentially tender outdoor plants. Even if Prof Sprout doesn't do this (and I have to say she appears brutally capable!), someone somewhere in the WW nursery business must be using these techniques to ensure a continued supply. Herbology would appear to get much more interesting in 6th and 7th year. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 1 13:28:17 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 13:28:17 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97408 Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > YES. When I argued?quite strongly?that Snape's teaching methods > > are horrendous, uncalled for, abusive and likely ineffective, I > > was most definitely thinking of him in a real life teaching > > situation. I DO still believe Snape's methods are *likely* NOT > > the best way of reaching Harry and **definitely** NOT the best > > way of reaching Neville ["reaching" meaning, effective in > > helping them to learn]. In real life Snape's abusive teaching > > methods [remember, JKR said that herself!] would be cause for > > action. But this **is** fiction, and as you noted above, > > Snape's role in these stories is to provide Harry with his Daily > > Dose of Misery. I would do well to remember that distinction > > when Snape pisses me off. Kneasy: > Abusive? Depends on your definitions. > Horrendous? Uncalled for? Ineffective? Surely not. > > IMO our Snapey knows exactly how far he can go before stepping > over the line into overkill. His insults and manipulation of > student behaviour seems to be nicely calculated to encourage > the "I'll show him!" response rather than the "rabbit frozen in > the headlights" reaction. Siriusly Snapey Susan: We've gone round & round on this one, and I suspect we'll never see eye to eye. But let me get started on defending my position a bit. First off--something I wrote in about 3 days ago--this bit from a JKR interview: > **What about Snape?** > Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I > myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we > are kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that > teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular > teacher does abuse his power. I'm not really sure how one can get around JKR's own words "sadistic" and "this particular teacher does abuse his power". Now that I've got that out, let me go on to say what I **LIKE** about Snape's teaching (much of which you also have mentioned). Yes, I like parts of Snape's teaching! 1) He sets his standards high and *explains* them right off the bat 2) He tells his students just what he expects them to be able to do in order to achieve a passing grade on an OWL exam 3) He tells them straight out that he takes very few students into NEWT-level potions classes and what they need to do if they want to be there 4) He appears to be VERY organized & prepared for each class 5) He himself seems to truly be a master at potions and to understand potion-making in great depth 6) He does not tolerate goofing off in class when there is serious work to be done That is a LOT to speak on his behalf, is it not? If I might risk bragging a bit, these are the kinds of things I prided myself upon when I taught teenagers their social studies. (Well, I wasn't the master that Snape is, but the rest of it. ) Kneasy: > It's no coincidence that Harry and Neville bear the brunt of his > ire, not only are they the two candidates for Prophecy glory, but > they are also the most frustratingly inept (from his point of > view) students in the class. Harry and Neville can't or won't even > follow simple instructions that are written out for them. > Everybody else does it better on most occasions, but these two - > sheesh! Snape must be in dispair - here he is, having joined > forces with the Order so as to bring Voldy down, and the supposed > saviours of the WW can't cope with a simple recipe or two. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Here is, not surprisingly, where we diverge, Kneasy. As I have stated several times in the past, I have more concern over Snape's treatment of Neville than of Harry, but let me have at this a bit. >From CLASS ONE, Snape treated Harry nastily, embarrassing him, accusing him of things he didn't even care about [we know Harry doesn't crave celebrity, yet Snape implies that he does, for instance]. Harry **is** paying attention in that first class. Why does Snape stare at him w/ hatred & loathing from the start, feel compelled to humiliate him from the start? I know, I know, it likely **is** part of DD's plan of ensuring that Harry doesn't become big-headed, BUT Snape clearly goes farther with it than he needs to. Why not wait 'til Harry does something stupid? Why not wait 'til Harry forgets a step? Instead, he starts it all when Harry really & truly has done nothing wrong. Do I blame Snape for this inappropriateness? You bet I do. He is smart enough to have done better! I think part of Snape's treatment of Harry is an act, but I think part of the time he really can't control his loathing. THAT is where I blame him. We've already discussed previously times when Harry really does goof up and deserves to be called on it, but we've also mentioned times when Snape is unfair--like when he "accidentally" broke Harry's potion flask that day when he DID get it right and just AFTER Hermione had cleaned up his cauldron. Coincidence? You'll never convince me, not with that sneer on Snape's face. Now, Harry does have more of the fight back attitude than Neville does, and in the END, it may work out that Harry can begin to learn under Snape's teaching style (assuming he goes on with potions!). Particularly, I think, if someone ELSE can convince Harry that he MUST do so [perhaps by reminding him of how he didn't succeed at occlumency]. On to Neville. With Neville, I think Snape is just WRONG. If, as you have suggested, Snape knows & believes that these two young men have the greatest need for really, truly learning this material, then he SHOULD go out of his way to be sure that they learn. YES, I'm saying he might [gasp!] have to change his methods a bit to accomplish this! I suspect this is where you might think I'm crossing that line back over to RW standards again. But hear me out. If, right here in JKR's fictional WW, Snape believes that it is vital that Harry & Neville learn potions, he should evaluate whether that is happening. With Harry, we know it's complicated by the "front" Snape needs to keep up for Draco and other DE kids. Harry is also pretty tough and, as I said above, might actually come around to being able to learn "in spite of Snape". With Neville, though, Snape should be able to see that his methods are backfiring. Neville came to Hogwarts having next to no confidence in himself. He bumbles and falters and screws up time & time again. With a kid like that, if you begin by lambasting him in front of others, if you humiliate him, if you add fuel to his own fire, what do you think is going to happen? Neville's NOT going to get that "I'll show him" fight back kind of feeling; he is going to get that "rabbit in the headlights" look you mentioned. He'll expect himself to fail and it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Neville is NOT Harry. Lots of people have faulted Lupin for the Boggart!Snape thing w/ Neville (I don't). What *I* think was totally inappropriate in that scene was Snape's telling Lupin--in front of the whole class--that he'd better beware because Neville Longbottom was in the class. How dare he! What reason does he have to humiliate Neville in someone else's class, why does he need to try to set up Lupin to also expect Neville's failure? It's THIS kind of thing which makes me say that Snape does not understand how to teach a kid like Neville. Add to it that Snape allegedly believes it's essential that Neville learn, and I very much do fault him. You said it yourself-- > ... he particularly knows that emotions are counter-productive in > mastering the skills that Harry has to absorb. If he knows that emotions are counter-productive, then why does he do so much that AROUSES emotional reactions in these two? Snape's a smart guy--why can't he see this? And if anyone were to say, "Well, he does see, but he doesn't care," then I'm right back to this: If he truly believes these two need to learn, he SHOULD care. Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 1 14:02:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 14:02:29 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97409 snipping all but one portion of this post > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > From CLASS ONE, Snape treated Harry nastily, embarrassing him, > accusing him of things he didn't even care about [we know Harry > doesn't crave celebrity, yet Snape implies that he does, for > instance]. Harry **is** paying attention in that first class. Why > does Snape stare at him w/ hatred & loathing from the start, feel > compelled to humiliate him from the start? I know, I know, it > likely **is** part of DD's plan of ensuring that Harry doesn't > become big-headed, BUT Snape clearly goes farther with it than he > needs to. Why not wait 'til Harry does something stupid? Why not > wait 'til Harry forgets a step? Instead, he starts it all when > Harry really & truly has done nothing wrong. Do I blame Snape for > this inappropriateness? You bet I do. He is smart enough to have > done better! I think part of Snape's treatment of Harry is an act, > but I think part of the time he really can't control his loathing. > THAT is where I blame him. Potioncat: Well, I'm working under a handicap here, I can't find my SS. But I'd like to toss in my impressions. In this episode, Snape comments that Harry hadn't read the assignment. So it seems to me, that Snape might have expected students to be able to answer the questions, even if he anticipated that most would not. I've had quite a few teachers myself who would more likely call on the unprepared student than the prepared one. Harry's aware of the stir he causes, as he travels around Hogwarts, I'm sure Snape is. So Snape tests Harry by asking difficult questions from the reading material he assigned. Then makes the "fame isn't everything..." comment. This can either be to distance himself from the Dark Lord's bane,(in front of the DE children) or to deflate the ego he expects of Potter. It also serves to show the other students that they had better come to class prepared. But it isn't nice. Potioncat who can defend Snape in fiction, but wouldn't want him as a teacher in the RW. From LWalshETAL at aol.com Sat May 1 14:32:20 2004 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 10:32:20 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Remus=20&=20Sirius=20-=A0=20How=20Dumbledore=20Kn?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ew.?= Message-ID: <53.abbd040.2dc50ef4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97410 In a message dated 04/05/01 08:29:22, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "newdella" wrote: > > As I was reading this (snipped) post, a thought came to me as to how > > DD knew of the events at GH.? There is no cannon that I know of to > > prove it, so it's pure theory.? But we know from OotP that people in > > their portraits can move from one location to another. What if there > > was a portrait hanging in the sitting room of GH and the person > > portrayed in was also a former Headmaster/mistress?? As soon as LV > > comes in the door the person in the portrait reports to DD who sends > > Hagrid to retreive Harry, if he's still alive.? > > Rosebeth > > bboy_mn: > Excellent point, but I want to make one small adjustment to it. It > wouldn't have to be a portrait of a Headmaster/Headmistress. It > appears the Hogwarts is filled with many many, perhaps hundreds, of > historic portraits. > Given that it is GODRICK's Hollow and that Harry is a Gryffindor, why couldn't the portrait have been of Godrick Gryffindor? Sorry for the short post. I gather some people dislike them. Laura Walsh LWalshETAL at aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat May 1 14:32:43 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 14:32:43 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97411 Kneasy wrote: "But Lupin did OK teaching Harry," you'll say. True, but maybe not strictly comparable. Lupin was teaching Harry how to master aspects of wand magic, Snape is in the business of teaching Harry to master aspects of himself - and Harry can't do it - yet. Significantly, JKR said recently that in the next book Harry has to master his own feelings to make himself useful. vmonte responds: It's funny that you mention JKR's quote because I think it really relates to Snape as well. Because I also believe that Snape is a person who is not able to master his feelings, and that he is often not useful to the Order because of them. I realize that Harry is a goof-off in school, and that he needs to master himself in order to be effective in the next two books. Unfortunately, I believe that Snape is incapable of mastering himself. Too bad, because he has a brilliant mind -- I love his biting wit! I think that we learned a lot more about "Snape the person," during the penseive scene. I think that Snape lives and wallows in the past. Snape is right to tell Harry that Voldemort knows peoples weaknesses. Voldemort knows the people who wear their hearts on their sleeves. Look at the quality of people Voldemort surrounds himself with. They are either emotionally unstable or quite mad, cowards, or incredibly dim witted. True leaders surround themselves with the best kinds of people. I also think that most of JKR's characters have been showing emotional growth, all except for Snape (and perhaps Percy). I believe that in the next book, the children will be forced, due to circumstances, to grow up and master themselves. I think that this is when they will start to see Snape for the person he is. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 1 14:33:46 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 14:33:46 -0000 Subject: Firenze and Forests (Was Re: Trelawney's Future Role) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > > Deeby: > >I would certainly agree that the apparently opposing themes of > > prophecy and choice will be central to the denouement of the series. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > I think Deeby is right that a *prophecy* is a very interesting thing > to have built to such prominence in a series which has also so > strongly stressed our *choices*. It requires us to wrestle much > harder with what it all means. > Just to widen the thread somewhat- some of the regulars may remember a couple of posts I made a few months ago where I wondered if the Prophecy wasn't a prediction for the future in books 6&7, but something that had already happened, or mostly so anyway. The word 'vanquish' came in for close consideration; it doesn't mean destroy, it means defeat. Enemies can come back from defeats. Re-reading OoP, chap 37, The Lost Prophecy, the following sentence caught my eye: "You were in more danger than perhaps anyone but I realised. Voldemort had been vanquished hours before, but..." Using DD's own words, Harry has already vanquished Voldy once and Voldy is back on the road with his comeback tour. Vanquishing doesn't hack it. DD seems to think that death is a reasonable alternative solution: "so does that mean that...that one of us has got to kill the other one....in the end?" "Yes," said Dumbledore. No, I'll correct myself - not 'death' is a reasonable alternative, 'killing' is a reasonable alternative. Something very different. This is a bit of a change of tune from his "There are worse things than death, Tom!" in the Ministry. Or is he playing with words again? I've dissected that statement before; what is worse than death? Eternal life? The endless dragging of century after century with no surcease? Isn't this what Voldy desires, what he's striven to achieve? The fact that he can survive as a disembodied entity suggests immortality has almost been grasped. This will make him bloody difficult to dispose of. How can he be killed? Can he be killed, at least in terms that make sense to a mortal? He's already survived one bouncing AK, why not another? What's to stop him floating off into the wilderness to re-appear in a few years, refreshed, re-invigorated, ready for round 3? Of course, if you accept my possession theory, then there is something else worse than death - eternal slavery. Submission to an occupying power - forever. It all depends on the answer to the question "What is Voldemort?" Is Voldy just Tom Riddle gone bad, or is he Tom Riddle possessed by an evil power that resided in the Chamber and has held him in thrall ever since? It's a theory I like. No evidence, of course; or perhaps more correctly, no direct evidence. Just a few bits and pieces that can be read one way or the other and add up to much or nothing. We've already seen Harry and Voldy waving wands at each other to no great purpose. Possibly this is a clue showing that this is not the way to do it. High noon in Hogsmead is a non-starter. DD whitters on about calling Voldemort by his name, not "he who must not be named" So why does DD call him Tom? DD drones on about choices; IMO it won't be Harry's choices that matter in the end, it'll be Tom's, because Tom and Voldemort are not quite the same thing. Remove Tom and Voldy is no more. Of course, the remaining fraction may be a bit of a problem. Kneasy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 1 14:41:25 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 14:41:25 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97413 Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > From CLASS ONE, Snape treated Harry nastily, embarrassing him, > > accusing him of things he didn't even care about [we know Harry > > doesn't crave celebrity, yet Snape implies that he does, for > > instance]. Harry **is** paying attention in that first class. > > Why does Snape stare at him w/ hatred & loathing from the start, > > feel compelled to humiliate him from the start? Potioncat: > In this episode, Snape comments that Harry hadn't read the > assignment. So it seems to me, that Snape might have expected > students to be able to answer the questions, even if he > anticipated that most would not. I've had quite a few teachers > myself who would more likely call on the unprepared student than > the prepared one. Siriusly Snapey Susan: I believe this is what you're thinking of, Potioncat. "'Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter?' ...He *had* looked through his books at the Dursleys', but did Snape expect him to remember everything in One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi?" Now, first, I would ask, do we KNOW that it was an assignment? All we know is that Harry received his book list and that he purchased his books. Were students explicitly instructed to begin working in them? Harry **did** read "the assignment", did look through his books. As far as we know, Hermione is the only student who has a hand raised. Do the others know the answers? If Snape's goal is to show that he expects ALL students to take this class seriously, that he expects them to KNOW the material, then why not ask others these questions, too? Why give all THREE questions to the same student? If he were to have called on several others and shown that all/most were "not ready", his message of "You'd better take this class seriously" would likely have come through more clearly. Instead, what came through was an appearance of *picking on* one student by asking all three questions of him. If the room had been filled with students waving their hands, I'd have maybe understood. I don't think we're SUPPOSED to get any message from this, though, beyond that Snape is going to treat Harry this way from now on. Siriusly Snapey Susan From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat May 1 14:46:33 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 14:46:33 -0000 Subject: the Twins' classes (was Re: OWLS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97414 > Bboy_mn wrote: > > > > As far as the Twins, even though they are not very studious, I think > > their three OWLs were most likely in core required classes, and I > also > > base that on their apparent skills; Transfigurations, Charms, and > > maybe Potions. But they appear to be in DADA classes, so maybe not > > potions. They certainly have skill in that area (potions), but may > > have not had sufficient academic interest to do well in their OWLs. > > > > > Potioncat: > I would assume at least one of the twins took potions based on > those "snacks" they were whipping up! Perhaps one took charms and > one transfigurations? > Potioncat Now Ginger- I had a wonderful idea cooked up that perhaps each twin took different classes, thanks to that last line in Potioncat's post. They were, after all, business partners. If they needed a particular class, why not have only one take it? They could each take 3, and have a total knowledge of 6 for their WWW purposes. I could definately see them sitting down the summer before 5th year and saying, "You know, as long as we're in this together, why go through all the work twice? You get OWLS in this and that, and I'll get them in such and such." Alas, I think my raft has sprung a leak. As Vinnia pointed out, Fred suggested to George that they hurry off to sell extendable ears before Herbology. Which, if you want to twist it, *could* mean that Fred meant that *they* could sell ears before *he* went to Herbology, but that's kind of pushing it, if you ask me. I also found on p. 311, US edition OoP, that they had both been present in Charms when DJU inspected it. So, we have both in Charms and at least Fred, but probably both in Herbology. Any other quote to nail them down in other classes? Or could we be on to a flint if we find more than 3? Ginger-is that gum on my shoe? From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat May 1 14:59:52 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 14:59:52 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?portrait_in_GH_(was_Re:_Remus_&_Sirius_-=A0_How_Dumbledore_Knew.)?= In-Reply-To: <53.abbd040.2dc50ef4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97415 > >(snip of both Rosebeth and Steve's posts speculating that a portrait in GH may have informed DD.) Laura Walsh added: > Given that it is GODRICK's Hollow and that Harry is a Gryffindor, > why couldn't the portrait have been of Godrick Gryffindor? > > Sorry for the short post. I gather some people dislike them. Ginger adds: Good point on GG's portrait, but it could also have been Bowman Wright, inventor of the snitch, who also hailed from GH (QttA p. 14, US). He would have been an important historical figure, or at least had an admirer who commissioned a portrait. Ginger, who firmly believes that a poster need not apologize for a short post. Anyone who can state what they intend in a concise manner is good in my book. Not that long posts are bad, in fact some of the best posts I have read were long (Anatomy of a Rift), but I envy those who are concise as I tend to get longwinded...oh, I am now. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 1 15:08:20 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 15:08:20 -0000 Subject: the Twins' classes (was Re: OWLS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97416 Ginger wrote: . > > So, we have both in Charms and at least Fred, but probably both in > Herbology. Any other quote to nail them down in other classes? Or > could we be on to a flint if we find more than 3? > Potioncat: Well, since Harry never knows what to expect in the next year, neither do we. Could you continue in a class if you didn't pass OWLS? In some of the standardized test in Virginia, some students pass the class via grade, then fail the Standard test which causes all sorts of trouble. (I'm not sure how we currently resolve that, but what would the WW care?) Could they have taken NEWTS in a class in which they didn't pass OWLS? So could there be classes that don't have an OWL requirement? Hagrid would probably welcome any interested student! Or are we once again straining at some sort of detail that JKR didn't care about or work out herself? The twins didn't care enough about the scores to work on it, even though they are obviously very smart. And apparantly, they stayed on at school to please their parents. So are they only taking the bare minimum....We know some combination of Charms, DADA and Herbology. (Maybe it's the Herbology rather than Potions that they use for the "snacks.") Potioncat who suspects she just paraphrased the previous post only with more words. From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Sat May 1 15:28:08 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 08:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040501152808.44562.qmail@web42104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97418 cubfanbudwoman wrote: Kneasy: > It's no coincidence that Harry and Neville bear the brunt of his ire, not only are they the two candidates for Prophecy glory, but they are also the most frustratingly inept (from his point of view) students in the class. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Here is, not surprisingly, where we diverge, Kneasy. As I have stated several times in the past, I have more concern over Snape's treatment of Neville than of Harry, but let me have at this a bit. >From CLASS ONE, Snape treated Harry nastily, embarrassing him, accusing him of things he didn't even care about [we know Harry doesn't crave celebrity, yet Snape implies that he does, for instance]. Harry **is** paying attention in that first class. Why does Snape stare at him w/ hatred & loathing from the start, feel compelled to humiliate him from the start? akh: When I reread PS a few weeks ago (having received my UK editions!yahoo!!), I already knew about this - er - discussion, so I was looking for canon to support or refute it. I was struck by the following: "It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes - and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead... "The pain had gone as quickly as it had come. Harder to shake off was the feeling Harry had got from the teacher's look - a feeling that he didn't like Harry at all." Philosopher's Stone, "The Sorting Hat" P. 94 paperback At this point, there is no reason for Snape to be "demonstrating" his preference for Slytherins; who's going to see that he was glaring at Harry in a room full of students? He most certainly has no reason to be frustrated or otherwise concerned about Harry's abilities; Harry's only been at Hogwarts a few hours at most. If Snape's treatment of Harry is purely staged, as has been suggested, why didn't Harry see an appraising look? Snape-as-Machiavelli would be sizing up Harry, not shooting him a look of loathing. Snape may be able to rationalize his abusive treatment of Harry (and it IS abusive, however strategically planned), but it's not borne strictly out of calm planning, if this scene is to be given credence. I agree that Snape has some enviable teaching abilities; anyone who can keep discipline with a group of 12-year-olds without raising their voice has my undying admiration! However, I do believe we risk ignoring Rowling's own signals about Snape if we ascribe his behavior to calculation, and as a literary character, I'd find him less interesting if all his vitriol could be explained away as a grand master plan. So there! akh --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 15:34:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 15:34:04 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97419 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > I believe this is what you're thinking of, Potioncat. > > "'Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter?' > ...He *had* looked through his books at the Dursleys', but did Snape > expect him to remember everything in One Thousand Magical Herbs and > Fungi?" > > Now, first, I would ask, do we KNOW that it was an assignment? All > we know is that Harry received his book list and that he purchased > his books. Were students explicitly instructed to begin working in > them? Harry **did** read "the assignment", did look through his > books. > > As far as we know, Hermione is the only student who has a hand > raised. Do the others know the answers? Hi, Susan! And we are back to where it all started. :o) I believe you are right. We DON'T KNOW that it was an assignment. In fact I don't remember reading anywhere in the PS/SS that they were supposed to do ANY homework before school started. (Will be happy to eat my words, if anybody points me to the contrary quote. :o)) The fact that Hermione knew the answer absolutely does not mean that any other child should. :o) In fact, Harry was curious enough to Look through the books. What more should we expect? I don't think we're SUPPOSED to get any > message from this, though, beyond that Snape is going to treat Harry > this way from now on. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Yep, I can't contain myself from saying it again 'Snape started it" :o) With Dumbledore's blessing (quite likely) or not, Snape started it. Having Harry's survival at heart (possible, I admit) or not, Snape started it. And Harry supposed to change his attitudes first? Sorry, not in my book. :o) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 15:43:48 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 15:43:48 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: <20040501152808.44562.qmail@web42104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, AnitaKH wrote: > > When I reread PS a few weeks ago (having received my UK editions! yahoo!!), I already knew about this - er - discussion, so I was looking for canon to support or refute it. I was struck by the following: > > "It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes - and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead... > > "The pain had gone as quickly as it had come. Harder to shake off was the feeling Harry had got from the teacher's look - a feeling that he didn't like Harry at all." Philosopher's Stone, "The Sorting Hat" P. 94 paperback > > At this point, there is no reason for Snape to be "demonstrating" his preference for Slytherins; who's going to see that he was glaring at Harry in a room full of students? He most certainly has no reason to be frustrated or otherwise concerned about Harry's abilities; Harry's only been at Hogwarts a few hours at most. If Snape's treatment of Harry is purely staged, as has been suggested, why didn't Harry see an appraising look? Snape-as-Machiavelli would be sizing up Harry, not shooting him a look of loathing. Snape may be able to rationalize his abusive treatment of Harry (and it IS abusive, however strategically planned), but it's not borne strictly out of calm planning, if this scene is to be given credence. > > I agree that Snape has some enviable teaching abilities; anyone who can keep discipline with a group of 12-year-olds without raising their voice has my undying admiration! However, I do believe we risk ignoring Rowling's own signals about Snape if we ascribe his behavior to calculation, and as a literary character, I'd find him less interesting if all his vitriol could be explained away as a grand master plan. > > > > So there! > > > > akh > > > > > So true, Anita. I would even settle for neutral look, but noooo Snape had to antagonize Harry right from the beginning. :) Now, Voldie is not back yet, so excuse of pretending in front of Slyths does not count and who exactly would notice anyway? I agree, even if Snape is under orders to be Harry's "enemy unmber one" in school, I believe that this is the role he WANTS to play, HAPPY to play and which is very attuned to his mindset towards Harry. If Snape survives, I don't want him to be come "peaches and cream", but I do want to hear him saying to Harry "Potter, you are not your father". If that means that Snape is not going be "real Snape" after saying those words, well than yes, I do want him to change in that aspect. I am guilty as charged. :o) Alla From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat May 1 16:12:02 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 16:12:02 -0000 Subject: Firenze and Forests (Was Re: Trelawney's Future Role) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97422 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > DD whitters on about calling Voldemort by his name, not > "he who must not be named" So why does DD call him Tom? > DD drones on about choices; IMO it won't be Harry's choices > that matter in the end, it'll be Tom's, because Tom and > Voldemort are not quite the same thing. Remove Tom and > Voldy is no more. > Carolyn: A post from the old Yahoo Club archives (3761) offers an interesting perspective on this, suggesting that DD might be preparing Harry for a role that once might have been Tom's. The theory is based on the similarity between Tom and Harry (looks, background etc). It could be that after Salazar left, the remaining three founders left some kind of information for future headmasters/heads of house which would help them identify the champion who could eternally help fight the good fight against the divisive evil that Salazar had created, and which would always threaten the WW if left unchecked. DD may have thought Tom met all the criteria in the early 1930s, hence his close interest in him. However, Tom became tempted by the forces of evil ('its our choices'..etc etc), and he was disappointed. When DD heard Trelawny's prophecy many years later, he realised he had a couple of new candidates and acted accordingly. It could be that Tom knows about some of this, but realised that his role was to be DD's weapon (as is Harry's) in the good fight, and decided he'd rather be bad, but immortal. This also assumes that DD is some kind of eternal re-incarnation of the forces for good (hence the Fawkes-as-pet clue). From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat May 1 16:41:10 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 16:41:10 -0000 Subject: DD: an appreciation: Love Shield - Magic of Two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97423 bboy_mn wrote: The Love Shield Magic is comprised of TWO, count them TWO, parts. Part 1- Love's Sacrifice When Lily sacrificed herself for Harry, she left him with a lasting protection that ,in all likelihood, prevented Voldemort from killing him. In addition, it protected Harry from Quirrel's evil touch, and while Voldemort can touch Harry now, according the Dumbledore, Harry's mother's sacrifice still protects him. This Sacrifice of Love is an eternal ancient magic in it's own right. Part 2 - The Protection of Blood When if fell upon Dumbledore to protect Harry, he decided that the best protection was to build upon the protection that Lily had already given Harry. So, to 'Love's Sacrifice' he added the 'Protection of Blood'. When Petunia agreed to take Harry in, she sealed the Ancient Magical Blood Protection Charm, and enhanced Harry's protection so that even Voldemort himself, powerful as he is, can not harm Harry while he is in the 'house of his blood'. Dumbledore's effort, in a sense, merged the two protections together to create a very strong, nearly impregnable, safeguard for Harry. However, in my opinion, the merging of the two to create the ultimate protection, doesn't stop the existance of or the protection given by Lily's sacrifice as a separate entity. That love, sacrifice, and protection will alway be there; it is unrelated to any geographic location. It exits within Harry, where ever he may be. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Now Neri: See, this is the part that most confuses me in the whole HP saga, and I'm sure it is meant to, since it is the key to everything. Let's put it more plainly: 1. After using Harry's blood for his resurrection, Voldy can touch Harry. So it seems that Lily's sacrifice protection does not protect Harry from Voldy anymore. Or alternatively (the way it is according to Voldy) that Harry's blood gives Voldy protection against the pain. So it would have appeared that the sacrifice protection does NOT protect Harry from Voldy anymore, except in the Dursleys house where it is still reinforced by Petunia's pact. Voldy had tried AK-ing Harry twice since his resurrection, so he certainly believes this himself, and it seems DD believes this too, or he would have let Voldy AK Harry in the MoM battle and get hit by the rebound again. 2. Yet by the end of OotP, DD says that Voldy could not possess Harry because he could not reside in a body so full of a power he detests. Does this mean that the sacrifice protection IS TOO working? Or does it mean that the-power-that-Harry-has-in-abundance-and-Voldemort- knows-not-at-all is NOT the sacrifice protection? 3. But just a bit before (in that end of OotP talk) DD says that Lily's protection still resides in Harry's blood, so together with that power-that-is-something-else it gets awfully crowded in there. 4. And if we assume (as I still tend to do) that these powers are one and the same, then how can Voldy reside in his OWN new body, when the power he detests runs in its veins? Can anybody get out of this? Neri From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 1 18:07:36 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 18:07:36 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > > Yep, I can't contain myself from saying it again 'Snape started > it" :o) With Dumbledore's blessing (quite likely) or not, Snape > started it. Having Harry's survival at heart (possible, I admit) or > not, Snape started it. > > And Harry supposed to change his attitudes first? Sorry, not in my > book. :o) Oh, dear. Might have known it. The putative hero of the story gets the support, one of the villains(?) gets brickbats. 'Twas ever thus. Can you imagine what that egotistical, unthinking, opinionated little snot would be like if Snape backed down? He'd be insufferable! He'd be like Malfoy, only without the breeding. Only to be expected mind you, he's really a Slytherin, after all. Have another look at young Potter - as an individual. He's not all that nice to anyone except a small gang of supporters. It's his circumstances that makes him appear to be a sympathetic character, not his personality. In OoP he seemed to be behaving in ways that will end up with him being more like his father than just in looks. Except in episodes of extreme provocation, just what has Snape done anyway? Some sarcastic comments, marks docked, "Points from Gryffindor!" yet the reaction would hardly be more damning if he'd dragged Harry and Neville to the front of the class and thrashed them soundly thrice weekly. Sorry SSS, sadism it ain't. Now Bella, *that's* sadism. Snape is a gentle zephyr by comparison. Ask Neville, he'll confirm it. Of course, modern thinking predicates that the hard word results in damaged personalities. No sign of any effect from Snape's actions yet in HP. So if Snape wants to live up to the reputation given to him by some posters, he'll have to try a bit harder. "Come on, Sevvy! You can do it!" Kneasy From Janicem211 at aol.com Sat May 1 03:14:21 2004 From: Janicem211 at aol.com (jemnilla28) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 03:14:21 -0000 Subject: OWLS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97425 > Del replies : > I don't want to be a nitpicker, but if I remember correctly, both > Auror and Healer trainings require a few NEWTs. > I meant that Aurors and Healers are NEWT-level. Running a joke shop doesn't require NEWTs. From happydogue at aol.com Sat May 1 18:27:14 2004 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 14:27:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wandless Magic Message-ID: <8.4bec990f.2dc54602@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97426 You also have to remember that individuals have different degrees of strength and talent. For someone like Dumbledore it may be easier for him to focus his strength into wandless magic compared to someone who has a low level of talent and skill. JMM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 1 18:28:40 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 18:28:40 -0000 Subject: Firenze and Forests (Was Re: Trelawney's Future Role) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > > Carolyn: > A post from the old Yahoo Club archives (3761) offers an interesting > perspective on this, suggesting that DD might be preparing Harry for > a role that once might have been Tom's. > > The theory is based on the similarity between Tom and Harry (looks, > background etc). It could be that after Salazar left, the remaining > three founders left some kind of information for future > headmasters/heads of house which would help them identify the > champion who could eternally help fight the good fight against the > divisive evil that Salazar had created, and which would always > threaten the WW if left unchecked. > snip Now that sounds fascinating. Must check on that one. Don't agree, of course - that would be too easy, abandoning a pet theory without a struggle. For one thing, when Tom and DD meet in the diary flash-back there's no hint of acolyteand mentor, no closeness at all, though there's little enough to go on. It's the concept of Salazars's evil still stalking the corridors of Hogwarts (well, the Chamber, but you know what I mean) that adds the piquancy. Is it that a Tom/Harry type personality attracts Sally and so can be used as bait, or is it that they are somehow more likely to resist? Hmm. I can't help but remember that at GH Lily didn't say "Don't kill Harry," she said "Don't take Harry" - words which can mean the same thing or indicate an entirely different situation, something that's been discussed here before. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, I'll slide into the archives for a closer look. So many theories, so little time. Kneasy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 1 18:45:12 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 18:45:12 -0000 Subject: portrait in GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97428 Laura Walsh added: > > Given that it is GODRICK's Hollow and that Harry is a Gryffindor, > > why couldn't the portrait have been of Godrick Gryffindor? Ginger adds: > Good point on GG's portrait, but it could also have been Bowman > Wright, inventor of the snitch, who also hailed from GH (QttA p. > 14, US). He would have been an important historical figure, > or at least had an admirer who commissioned a portrait. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Absolutely. I believe that Bowman Wright was a descendant of Godric Gryffindor...and that James & Harry Potter are further along up the line from GG and Wright. Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 1 18:57:16 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 18:57:16 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97429 Kneasy: > Sorry SSS, sadism it ain't. > Now Bella, *that's* sadism. Snape is a gentle zephyr by comparison. > Ask Neville, he'll confirm it. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Kneasy, as I pointed out in #97408, *I'm* not the one to have first used the term "sadistic"; it was JKR who did so: " Snape is a very sadistic teacher." I attempted to make a number of points in that post concerning Snape with Harry & Neville, if you'd care to take a look. And I wasn't arguing about damaged personalities nor saying that Harry is faultless, btw. In fact, I wholeheartedly support Snape in his high standards & expectations. Siriusly Snapey Susan From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 1 19:02:33 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 19:02:33 -0000 Subject: portrait in GH (was Re: Remus & Sirius - How Dumbledore Knew.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97430 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > > >(snip of both Rosebeth and Steve's posts speculating that a > portrait in GH may have informed DD.) > Laura Walsh added: > > Given that it is GODRICK's Hollow and that Harry is a Gryffindor, > > why couldn't the portrait have been of Godrick Gryffindor? > > > > Sorry for the short post. I gather some people dislike them. > Ginger adds: > Good point on GG's portrait, but it could also have been Bowman > Wright, inventor of the snitch, who also hailed from GH QttA p. 14, > US). He would have been an important historical figure, or at > least had an admirer who commissioned a portrait. > > Ginger, bboy_mn: I'm not saying it absolutely would not be a portrait of someone specifically from Hogwart's history, only that the field of likely candidate is far bigger and more likely if they are taken from general wizard history. We also have to consider the likelihood of a Hogwart's Headmaster/Headmistress portrait being at Godric's Hollow. Phineas Nigellus was a headmaster and a member of the Black family, so logically he would be at both Hogwarts and 12 Grimmauld Place. But why would a headmaster's portrait be in the Potter's house? A headmaster portrait could, indeed, be in Potter's house, but why? It makes more sense to draw from the much larger history of wizards in general. Ginger's suggestion of Bowman Wright is a perfect example. Also, we don't know anything about the house at Godric's Hollow. Was it the Potter's ascestral home, just a house they rented, a house loaned by a friend, maybe arranged for by Dumbledore, wizard house or muggle house, consequently, we don't know if the possessions contained in the GH house have any connection to the Potters themselves. Perhaps, Dumbledore loaned them a portrait just for this occassion, and the Potters, the portrait, the house, and the town have no connection. As far as it being specifically Godric Gryffindor's portrait, that portrait would probably be nearly 1,000 years old, and not likely to be one found in most homes regardless of the geographic location. So, in conclusion, I'm not say a 'Heads' portrait is impossible, just that it is more likely to be a person from general wizarding history. bboy_mn From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Sat May 1 05:06:08 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 05:06:08 -0000 Subject: What about Tonks? Evil or good? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > So what do you think the chances are that Tonks will morph into > another character > If she is evil will she morph into Voldemort, or one of the children, > to lure Harry into a trap? And will someone realize that it is her > when she falls down a flight of stairs? Oh, that's so funny! :D Alternately, some have wondered whether she will, on the side of good, impersonate one of the Order or Harry or his friends, and take a hit. aj From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 20:01:56 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 20:01:56 -0000 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97434 djrfdh wrote: > Has anyone ever figured out just how Wormtail became a "pet" of the > Weasley's? Was Arthur "in on" Peter's deception? How about Molly? I'm sure Peter-the-rat didn't just scurry into the Weasley house one day and get "chosen" as a pet! I don't think any of the Weasley's are evil....unless you count Percy, but there's always one rotten apple...right? Personally, I think Percy is just blinded > by the bright lights of his own self-importance! Some kids go through a "rebellous" period and I think Percy just waited until he felt himself in a position of power to go through his! Hopefully he won't stray too far over to the "dark side" before he gets his sense back! But he is vulnerable...(just in case Voltemort asks!)or is it just a curse he's under? Carol: Scabbers was Percy's pet before he was Ron's, and Percy would have been about five years old (twelve years before PoA) when he acquired his little pet. Probably Scabbers knew exactly the right wizarding family to take him in--one with very little money and small boys likely to want him as a pet (the twins were three and Ron was one and a half.) I seriously doubt that either Molly or Arthur would have allowed little Percy to keep the rat if they'd suspected he was an animagus. (And remember that Molly asks Ron in OoP after he's been made a prefect if he wants her to buy him another rat as a reward: "You always liked Scabbers." It's as if she's forgotten that Scabbers wasn't really a rat!) I agree that Percy isn't really evil, just headed in the wrong direction through a combination of pride, ambition, obstinacy, and lack of appreciation from his father and brothers. He certainly wasn't evil even in that sense when he acquired Scabbers! I also agree that he's vulnerable, but JKR made it clear in her March 4 chat that he's acting on his own volition, not under an Imperius Curse. Carol From svetlanalvova at yandex.ru Sat May 1 15:17:44 2004 From: svetlanalvova at yandex.ru (svetlana_v_lvova) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 15:17:44 -0000 Subject: How many babies will Voldemort have to raise? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97435 Hi! Can someone help me out with this? According to JKR there are about 1000 students at Hogwarts ages 11 to 17. There is no indication that there are any other Wizarding schools in the UK. According to the CIA World Fact Book for 2003 (http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html) the population statistics for the UK are: Population: 60,094,648 (July 2003 est.) Age structure: 0-14 years: 18.3% 15-64 years: 66.1% 65 years and over: 15.6% Applying the above to number of students at Hogwarts: 1000/7 = 142.8571 students per year and the same amount enter Hogwarts every year meaning born every year. Hogwarts' Years 1 through 4 has 571.428 students. Hogwarts' Years 5 through 7 has 428.571 students. 142.8571 per year between 0-14 = 2,142.857 children in the Wizarding World newborns to 14 years old. This is the 18.3% That means that the 15-64 years group, which is 66.1%, is equal to 7,740.047 people. The 65 years and over age group, in this case, is 1,826.698 people. All in all, the total population of Wizarding Britain is 11,709.602 people. The number of children in the Weasley family is obviously unusual. So, my question. Question: with the Muggle population of the UK being 60,094,648.0, how many Death eaters will Voldemort need over how much time to "raise" an army to conquer the UK and the world? Thanks in advance. Cheers, Svetlana From caesian at yahoo.com Sat May 1 15:22:45 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 15:22:45 -0000 Subject: Incantations vs. spells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97436 Carol wrote: > > I've recently noticed several people using the term "incantation" as > > synonymous with "spell." My perception is that an incantation is not a > > one- or two-word command like "lumos!" or "wingardium leviosa!" but a > > chant that's spoken or sung as a kind of ritual, often but not always > > as part of the making of a complex potion. > > And are there any other examples of actual incantations that I'm > > overlooking? (Possibly Snape has to recite one when he makes the > > wolfbane potion. We don't hear him doing it, but that doesn't mean an > > incantation isn't involved. In my view, it would at least fit with the > > complexity of that particular potion.) > -------------------------- > Arya now: > I disagree--the incantation is indeed the words spoken to cast the spell. > Avada Kedavra is the incantation for the Killing Curse. The spells' names are > things like "Cruiciatius Curse", "Full-Body Bind", and "Silencing Charm". The > incantations are then "Crucio", "Petrificus Totalus", and "Silencio". You'll > notice in the books, the incantations are italicized to note the fact they're a > foreign word not standardized to the normal english speech. They are > indeed incantations. Snape even refers to them dismissively in PS when he > says, "...no foolish wand wand waving, no silly incantations..." We also read, > in OotP Ch 31, "...Pavarti was practicing incantations under her breath while > the salt cellar in front of her twitched..." Caesian adds: Another example of a single word identified as an incantation is the Dark Mark: "And then, without warning, the silence was rent by a voice unlike any they had heard in the wood; and it uttered, not a panicked shout, but what sounded like a spell. 'MORSMORDRE!'" ... then later .... "'Where did the Mark come from you three?' said Mr. Weasley quickly. 'Over there,' said Hermione shakily, pointing at the place where the had heard the voice, 'there was someone behind the trees ... they shouted words - an incantation -' 'Oh, stood over there, did they?' said Mr Crouch, turning his popping eyes on Hermione now, disbelief etched all over his face. 'Said an incantation, did they? You seem very well informed about how that Mark is summoned, missy ; ' Caesian From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 1 20:05:23 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 20:05:23 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97437 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > Kneasy, as I pointed out in #97408, *I'm* not the one to have first > used the term "sadistic"; it was JKR who did so: " Snape is a very > sadistic teacher." > > I attempted to make a number of points in that post concerning Snape > with Harry & Neville, if you'd care to take a look. And I wasn't > arguing about damaged personalities nor saying that Harry is > faultless, btw. In fact, I wholeheartedly support Snape in his high > standards & expectations. > I did look. It read as if you're reluctant to contradict JKR's view. "I'm not really sure how we can get round JKR's use of the word 'sadistic' and 'this particular teacher does abuse his power'..." or words very similar. Fair enough. I'm not. I can't equate Snape's moderately petty bullying with sadism, no matter what JKR says. It leaves one short of vocabulary for what Bella does to Neville in the Ministry. The two are not comparable. Maybe JKR was speaking with the knowledge of things to come, but so far I can't see any real justification for the use of the word. I wasn't aware that I had attributed any argument of yours to the subject of damaged personalities. It was a separate thought deliberately placed in a separate paragraph; perhaps you didn't notice. Kneasy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 20:10:07 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 20:10:07 -0000 Subject: The Dumbledore = Hedwig Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97438 djrfdh wrote: > I have long thought that perhaps Hedwig is Madame Hooch...think > about it, you never see them together at the same place or > time....they also have the same golden eyes.... > > You never hear of her being anywhere else except where Harry > is...Quidditch field. > > Clearly, Hedwig isn't just an owl! Carol: I think Hedwig *is* just an owl--but owls (even the dithering little Pigwidgeon and poor Errol who slams into the Dursley's closed window in OoP) know how to find the recipient of their letters even if the sender doesn't tell them where to go. They're clearly magical creatures--as cats are. As for Madam Hooch, we don't see much of her--she doesn't seem particularly intelligent or even vigilant--she falls asleep watching the quidditch practice in PoA (IIRC). And if she were an animagus (animaga?), both Crookshanks and the sneakoscope would have sensed it. Carol, who thinks Hedwig would ruffle her feathers and nip your fingers if she heard you refer to her or any other owl as "just an owl"! From caesian at yahoo.com Sat May 1 16:19:12 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 16:19:12 -0000 Subject: Magical Metabolism Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97439 In a wonderfully detailed essay, Food and Drink in the Potter Universe (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-food.html), Susanna/pigwidgeon37 begins by pointing out the obvious ? not only are wizards and witches resistant to aging, they seem remarkably immune to high cholesterol, obesity and butterbeer gut. She goes on to list the foods presented at Hogwarts feasts, daily meals, the Burrow, Hagrid's Hut and the Hogwarts express ? an astounding literary endorsement of the Atkins diet. I may be no Fleur Delacour, but I found myself siding against Hermione when Fleur complained that `zis `Ogwarts food - it is too heavy'. When I first read these books, I assumed that the culinary details were merely another inclusion of British tradition, however ? whether consciously or not - the books display a consistent linkage between body type and magical power. Tall thin wizards and witches, with long thin noses and long thin fingers are more powerfully magical than others, on average. Albus Dumbledore, Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort, Barty Crouch Sr., Arthur Weasley (and sons Bill, Percy and Ron), Professor McGonagall and Sirius Bla ck are all described as tall and thin. By contrast, plump short characters include Dolores Umbridge, Cornelius Fudge, Neville Longbottom, Molly Weasley, Madam Rosmerta and Prof essor Sprout. While the later ladies in that group are relatively unknown quantities in terms of magical ability, Umbridge, Fudge and Neville were all singled out as relatively weakly magical. While Hagrid is not short, and is described a very muscular ? he is also fairly broad (2 times taller, but 4-5 times wider than a normal man), and is not h ighly magical. Among the baddies, Crabbe and Goyle (Jrs and Srs) are described as boulderish ? and are also weakly magical. Perhaps the long, lean phenotype of powerfully magical individuals is not merely a correlate. Could it be that magical abilities, as a physical manifestation derived from the magical individual, require their own fuel supply? Powerfully magical individuals might have a relatively higher magical metabolism ? and maintain a lean body type (as would, say, a growing teenage boy ? despite voracious eating). This might also explain the astounding diet of the average Hogwarts student ? being magical, they all need the extra calories as compared to us Muggles. Were the Dursley's trying to starve, as well as squash, the magic out of Harry? It seems that some forms of magic may be relatively less metabolically taxing than others ? regardless of their utility. For example, Professor Sprout and Neville both display surpassing skill in herbology, while Madam Rosmerta and Molly Weasley have definite talents in mulled mead and magical cookery / "householdy spells" (to use Tonks? phrase). Now ? please don't come after me with meat cleavers for noticing this ? I am not about to suggest that transfiguring yourself into a tabby cat is more important or useful than making cream sauce with your wand. Only that, from the hypothetical magical metabolism point of view, the advanced, spell and wand intensive magical disciplines seem to be more taxing. While Snape may be potions master, I suspect his skill in other areas of magic is also very high, so it's difficult to say for Potions ability. The magical metabolism argument may also extend to magical creatures such as long- fingered house elves and goblins. It could also be suggested that JKR just doesn't encourage obesity (a failure in the staunch defense of all things British if ever there was one ? and I can say that with honesty and humility being an American). Her characterizations of Dudley, Uncle Vernon and Aunt Marge are not very flattering. Also, skinny non- magical folk like Aunt Petunia and Mrs. Figg occur, so being thin is not, by itself, indication that a character is magical. Likewise, it's not a direct correlate of magical ability in the child characters especially ? Ron is clearly the tallest and leanest of the trio, and of course, I have high hopes for Neville's magical skills while wishing to see his round good-natured face for some time. Just some thoughts... Caesian From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat May 1 20:20:50 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 20:20:50 -0000 Subject: portrait in GH (was Re: Remus & Sirius - How Dumbledore Knew.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97440 > wrote: > > > >(snip of both Rosebeth and Steve's posts speculating that a > > portrait in GH may have informed DD.) > > > > Laura Walsh added: > > > Given that it is GODRICK's Hollow and that Harry is a Gryffindor, > > > why couldn't the portrait have been of Godrick Gryffindor? > > > > > > Sorry for the short post. I gather some people dislike them. > > > > Ginger adds: > > Good point on GG's portrait, but it could also have been Bowman > > Wright, inventor of the snitch, who also hailed from GH QttA p. 14, > > US). He would have been an important historical figure, or at > > least had an admirer who commissioned a portrait. > > > > Ginger, > > bboy_mn: > > I'm not saying it absolutely would not be a portrait of someone > specifically from Hogwart's history, only that the field of likely > candidate is far bigger and more likely if they are taken from general > wizard history. > Neri: I had assumed that ONLY Hogwarts headmasters and headmistresses can move between their different portraits in different houses (maybe because they were powerful wizards in life) but now I see that DD's words may be interpreted also as if any wizard with more than one portrait can move between his portraits. I don't think this is true, because in such a case everybody in the WW would have known about it, and we would have heard about this before. It seems more reasonable to me that only past Hogwarts headmasters can do it and this why only the current headmaster knows about it. The portraits are honor bound to serve him as spies, and they wouldn't be of much use as spies had anybody known not to trust their portraits. In any case, the whole point of having a portrait in GH is that he can report to DD, and since we know only about portraits of past headmasters hanged in DD's office, it is likely the portrait in GH (if there indeed was one) was of one of them. Neri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 20:20:57 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 20:20:57 -0000 Subject: DD: an appreciation (Was Re: Snape, A Murderer?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97441 Kneasy wrote: > If you cast your mind back, this started with a consideration of DD's > explication in which he says that *he* placed the spell that > eventually protected Harry[,] and Voldy ups and says that Harry was > unwittingly provided with protection by Lily. An interesting > interlocking of canon, if indeed that is what it is. Of course, DD's > words can (as usual) be interpreted in more than one way, but the > unwitting protection bit seems pretty clear. > > Bookworm: > Voldemort may have "unwittingly" activated the ancient magic, but I > don't think it was unwitting on Dumbledore's or Lily's part. IMO, as > soon as Dumbledore heard the prophecy he started to work with the > Potters and Longbottoms to place ancient charms on the boys to help > protect them. Was that callous? Maybe. But remember that they were > all in the Order fighting Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Even if > Dumbledore did nothing, there was a good chance the parents would be > killed at some point. Once Voldemort heard about the prophecy, Harry > and Neville became targets too. Think of the protective charms as > taking out insurance and making a will - just in case. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm Carol: As I interpret it, Dumbledore placed the charm that protected Harry at the Dursleys (the one involving Petunia). He's not taking credit for the protective charm that Lily (apparently) placed on Harry to protect him at Godric's Hollow (the one involving her self-sacrifice). They're two distinct entities. As for Voldemort's claim that Lily's sacrifice was unwitting and foolish, he's either mistaken or is lying to Harry. No canon here because I've already developed both of these points in detail in previous posts. Carol From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sat May 1 16:50:09 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (ivogun) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 16:50:09 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97442 Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: > broke Harry's potion flask that day when he DID get it right and > just AFTER Hermione had cleaned up his cauldron.? Coincidence?? > You'll never convince me, not with that sneer on Snape's face... Motive? Perhaps Snape is trying to prevent Harry from getting into NEWT level potions. I have a theory with little proof, but it centers on revenge. The Potter family had money, but the Potter family names do not suggest they were an old moneyed family like the Malfoys, etc. To me this suggests that they were successful business people. It would be the ultimate irony if the Potter family had made their fortune and fame with potions. (Well the pharmaceutical industry is lucrative for us too.) I could even see them being the ones who invented the werewolf potion. They certainly had the motive to do so, and the timing would be correct. It's pure speculation of course, but it would anger Snape that his nemesis (James) had more fame as a potions master that he had. It would the perfect revenge if Harry couldn't follow in the family business because he was refused admittance into NEWT level potions. I don't sure that Snape could resist such an opportunity. > Lots of people have faulted Lupin for the Boggart!Snape thing > w/ Neville (I don't). What *I* think was totally inappropriate > in that scene was Snape's telling Lupin--in front of the whole > class--that he'd better beware because Neville Longbottom was > in the class. I don't fault Lupin either. Rowling, in one of her interviews mentioned that Lupin is a teacher that she would like her own daughter to have. He's supposed to be the model teacher, not Snape. The whole Boggart incident taught Neville gave Neville a tool in being able to control his panic in Prof. Snape's class. I think Neville was on the verge of cracking up under Snape. The Boggart class reminds me of music teachers, who right before a recital, tell their panic stricken students to imagine the audience sitting in their underwear. Ivogun From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 20:49:25 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 20:49:25 -0000 Subject: Conspiracy Theories - Clue, hints, & Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97443 Kathy wrote: It appears that JKR has gone to extensive lengths, at least to the major players, to create entire backgrounds for her own use. Given this bit of insight to her complexity, we may need a very large magnifying glass in picking out her very subtle clues. > bboy_mn responded: I don't think the question is so much are the stories rich in clues and hidden significant details as it is, which details are significant and which are not. Are Snapes dress, demeanor, and actions hints that he is a vampire, or are those just random insignificant details that mean nothing except to overwrought late-night conspiracy theorist? Carol: Regarding Snape, I don't think we need to make a choice between "random, insignificant details" and hints that he's a vampire. Description, like setting, helps create atmosphere and helps the reader to visualize the story. More important, it's often, if not usually, a part of character development--not that characters are what they appear to be (obviously not the case for Sirius in PoA or Quirrell in SS/PS) but that other characters judge them, at least in part, by their appearance. (Think of Hermione's judgment of Fleur, for example, or the boys in general of Cedric.) I think Snape's dress, demeanor, and actions are significant in helping us to visualize Snape and arouse our curiosity about him. I'm not sure how much insight they provide into who he really is, but they're certainly powerful aids to our understanding of who he *seems* to be, especially to Harry. As I think you agree, there's no need to associate those details with vampires at all. He simply swoops like a bat with his black cloak floating behind him. Based on that image and others like it (along with his speech patterns and his ability to put two and two together), and you can interpret him as sinister or as mysteriously Gothic/Romantic, or both, as you choose. Carol, who chooses both but nevertheless believes that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and adamantly opposed to Voldemort From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 17:49:13 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 17:49:13 -0000 Subject: Remus & Sirius - How DD knew Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97444 bboy_mn: >If there are matching historical portraits at both Hogwarts and Potters then the person in the portrait could come to his/her own portrait at Hogwarts, and from there move through the other portraits until he/she made their way to Dumbledore's office. I don't think we have to limit ourselves to portraits. What I've been thinking about is the mirror Sirius gave to Harry. Perhaps everyone in the Order had an item like this. Sirius told Harry that all he had to do was speak his name into the mirror. And if it works anything like say the floo network, where a person can see into the other room (wasn't it Bagman who was even able to eat some of Molly's toast, even though he was at a different location?) and obviously hear the other person speaking, then maybe all Lily or James would have had to do was speak DD's name into the mirror right as everything's about to happen, then DD could have heard the entire attack, or at least been aware of the sitch. (Though this thought is obviously quite morbid and definitely has holes in it.) And the thing about the mirrors, it seems, is that they connect specific people. The way I understand it, James and Sirius could talk to each other when they were in separate detentions, but if Remus had one of those mirrors as well, perhaps enchanted at the same time, I think they'd sort of be on the same network, so to speak, so he would have been able to hear James and Sirius talking as well, sort of like three-way-calling. Maybe all James or Lily had to do was speak anyone's name into the mirror (from the Order, I mean, saying they all had these mirrors to connect them) then any one of them could have notified DD. Susan,(huge Sirius fan) very much a n00b, though trying to get it together! From Ladycat16 at aol.com Sat May 1 16:10:57 2004 From: Ladycat16 at aol.com (Ladycat16 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 12:10:57 EDT Subject: SHIP: Need opinions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97445 ghostwriter31111 says: This is what I need an opinion on.? To me, the obvious couple is Harry Hermione.? Sure, there seems to be some sort of tension between Ron and Hermione, but if Hermione is as smart as she seems to be, she will realize that when two people argue as much as those two, there is no way in hell a relationship will work out.? Ladycat16 (me) says: I hate to say this but that's not always the case with people who argue. They can work out, just as long as both people feel the same way on how the relationship is handled and it's not one sided. I am in that kind of relationship and we couldn't be happier. Along the lines with the fact they argue so much. I think they argue with each other because one it's there way of saying how much they like each other, but don't have the guts to say it out right. The second reason I find them arguing is because they would rather do that then admit their feelings for one another. (In my personal life, Travis and I argued more then I care to admit to and that was becaue we didn't want things to progress anywhere, which I am happy to say they finally did) It's their way of showing they care for each other. Ok that's just my two cents. I do not have time to read through all the shipping threads, sorry, might reply later to some. Ladycat16 /Devilz_dancin_angel From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 18:45:48 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 18:45:48 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97446 AnitaKH pointed out: >"The pain had gone as quickly as it had come. Harder to shake off was the feeling Harry had got from the teacher's look - a feeling that he didn't like Harry at all." Philosopher's Stone, "The Sorting Hat" P. 94 paperback Alla wrote: >even if Snape is under orders to be Harry's "enemy unmber one" in school, I believe that this is the role he WANTS to play, HAPPY to play and which is very attuned to his mindset towards Harry. And vmonte says: >I think that we learned a lot more about "Snape the person," during the penseive scene. I think that Snape lives and wallows in the past. Snape is right to tell Harry that Voldemort knows peoples weaknesses. Voldemort knows the people who wear their hearts on their sleeves. This is my (Susan, er... teilani) response: I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thought of this, but perhaps Snape had a crush on Lily. We know James and Severus hated each other while they were in school. We also know SS became an acolyte of LV, but what we don't know is why he left LV in the first place. Could it be that maybe he couldn't stomach the idea of killing wizards who weren't purebloods, as in, Lily's not a pureblood! And IIRC, didn't that whole episode that HP saw in the penseive happen right in front of Lily?! How humiliating! That would certainly help explain why he didn't want her sticking up for him! I'm just saying that Harry probably reminds SS about too many things: the treatment he received from the Mauraders (particularly when it happened in front of Lily), the fact that Harry looks a great deal like his father, perhaps even some shame about hooking up with LV in the first place... See where I'm going? Just a thought. Susan (teilani, SB fan, whatever) still desperately trying to get this snipping/ attribution thing down. From idrinkjameson at hotmail.com Sat May 1 20:54:37 2004 From: idrinkjameson at hotmail.com (mcdee1980) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 20:54:37 -0000 Subject: Emails Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97447 Is anyone else not getting their digests? I haven't gotten an email in a couple of days . . . just curious! Lady McBeth From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com Sat May 1 21:07:26 2004 From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 21:07:26 -0000 Subject: the Twins' classes (was Re: OWLS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97448 > > Ginger wrote: > Any other quote to nail them down in other classes? Or > could we be on to a flint if we find more than 3? > Now Heather: What if there are two 'levels' of classes in years 6 and 7 - NEWT level and ordinary level? Perhaps the NEWT level classes are like an honors level class which takes only the best of the year. That would leave all of the other returning students in the ordinary level classes. This was quite common in Canadian High Schools when I was a student (albeit a long time ago... ). I find it hard to imagine that F&G would only be able to attend three classes in their 6th and 7th years after only receiving three OWLS... From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 19:42:12 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 19:42:12 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97449 Susan wrote: > Also, IIRC, at the end of OOP, DD tells Fudge that Sirius > was there and fought against the DEs, etc., and that Sirius > is INNOCENT. Marianne: > Well, no, DD tells Fudge that he will give a half hour of his > time to tell him the important points of what happened at the > Ministry. He doesn't mention Sirius by name. And, later, when > all of this news hits the Daily Prophet, and Hermione sits > reading it aloud in the Hospital, again there is no hint of > Sirius' involvement. So, while Dumbledore may have said something > to Fudge about Sirius, we have no canon evidence of it. Yet. Uh, GOOD! I really want Sirius to be alive. And I also only read OOP once, and am just now beginning the series again, starting of couse with SS, so it might be a while before I get to reread OOP. But if his name wasn't cleared, then perhaps the theory that he faked his death could work, though I'm still unclear as to why. Susan, desperately wanting to believe that Sirius is alive. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat May 1 21:18:02 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 21:18:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Charms (Was DD: an appreciation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97450 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Bookworm: IMO, as soon as Dumbledore heard the prophecy he started to work with the Potters and Longbottoms to place ancient charms on the boys to help protect them. Carol: As I interpret it, Dumbledore placed the charm that protected Harry at the Dursleys (the one involving Petunia). He's not taking credit for the protective charm that Lily (apparently) placed on Harry to protect him at Godric's Hollow (the one involving her self- sacrifice). They're two distinct entities. Bookworm: I agree they are two events. I also believe that Dumbledore was involved with both of them. My theory is that Dumbledore taught Lily the charm she used at Godric's Hollow after he first heard the prophecy. There was more than a year gap between the prophecy and the attack. I can't believe Dumbledore did nothing during that time. More likely he was either researching the appropraite "ancient magic" or teaching it to the Potters and Longbottoms. The other question is whether or not the two charms are related? I think they probably are. Ravenclaw Bookworm From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat May 1 21:19:38 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (slytherinspirit) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 21:19:38 -0000 Subject: the Twins' classes (was Re: OWLS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97451 > Now Heather: > > What if there are two 'levels' of classes in years 6 and 7 - NEWT > level and ordinary level? Perhaps the NEWT level classes are like > an honors level class which takes only the best of the year. That > would leave all of the other returning students in the ordinary > level classes. This was quite common in Canadian High Schools when > I was a student (albeit a long time ago... ). I find it hard > to imagine that F&G would only be able to attend three classes in > their 6th and 7th years after only receiving three OWLS... K Well if the WW school system is based on the English model then 3 or 4 NEWTs would be the rule rather than the exception. Most students only take 3 or 4 A-Levels in the English school system. So 4 or 5 NEWTs would seem like a reasonable number for most students to take to me. K From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 21:30:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 21:30:27 -0000 Subject: Ron's talents In-Reply-To: <191.28101847.2dbd7e62@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97452 Melanie wrote: However, the truth is in life sometimes the best gift a person can offer the world is friendship. I think that is Ron's true gift. Pook responded And his sense of humor! Harry and Hermionie don't have the one liners that on has to offer. Carol: While I agree with Melanie that friendship is Ron's greatest gift (more important, in the long run, than his skill at chess and the talent for Quidditch which I think will show itself more fully in Book 6), I think that Pook has a good point here. Neither Hermione nor Harry has much of a sense of humor. IIRC, neither of them has ever initiated a joke or a pleasantry. Ron, in contrast, has had to develop a sense of humor to deal with having the Twins as older brothers. That's what makes Ron so much for for Harry to be with, and why he misses him when they're feuding in GoF and he's stuck spending all his spare time in the library because Hermione is his best, rather than second-best, friend. Ron isn't perfect, but the spat in GoF was not entirely his fault. He thought he was being left out and lied to, and Harry didn't bother to set him straight by telling him what Crouch!Moody had said about someone else putting his name in the goblet. (I'm not attacking Harry, only saying that Ron's response was perfectly understandable.) If Ron has nothing to offer, it's hard to understand why Harry is supposed to rescue his "Wheezy" and not his Hermione in the second task in GoF. Ron, not Hermione, is "the thing Harry will miss most." And this is *after* their disagreement, not before. There's also Harry's shocked response to the Dead!Ron boggart in OoP: "All the air seemed to vanish from Harry's lungs; he felt as though he were falling through the floor; his brain turned icy cold--Ron dead, no, it couldn't be--" (OoP Am. ed. 173) Clearly Ron does have something to offer Harry--friendship and loyalty and a family and fun--and those things are very, very important to Harry. Carol, who fully expects a Weasley to die but desperately hopes it won't be Ron From helen at odegard.com Sat May 1 21:27:23 2004 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 14:27:23 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What about Tonks? Evil or good? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c42fc3$1853a680$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 97453 >From vmonte: > So what do you think the chances are that Tonks will morph into > another character > If she is evil will she morph into Voldemort, or one of the children, > to lure Harry into a trap? And will someone realize that it is her > when she falls down a flight of stairs? >From aj: Oh, that's so funny! :D Alternately, some have wondered whether she will, on the side of good, impersonate one of the Order or Harry or his friends, and take a hit. aj >From Helen (LizardLaugh): I think aj's scenario is more likely, but I would hate it if Tonks actually died *sobs*. I don't think Tonks is evil, for a few reasons: 1. It would be too obvious. She can change her appearance, we already know that. This raises everyone's suspicions, but because it does, it's much more likely a red herring. There may be ANOTHER Metamorphmagus who is evil (Bellatrix and Narcissa are likely candidates), but it won't be Tonks. She's there to introduce the concept, and she may turn up to be someone unexpected later, but my bets are on her impersonating someone good and taking a hit, impersonating someone good or neutral to watch out for Harry, or impersonating someone bad and acting as a spy for Dumbledore. 2. Her background... she's a half-blood like Harry. She takes her Muggleborn father's name as her given name over her more pure blood sounding first name. She's been disowned by her pure blood family. If she were gung-ho for Voldie, somehow, I don't think she'd be going by name she got from her Muggle side. 3. She was seriously injured in the battle at the DoM by Bellatrix. 4. JKR says she likes her. While she may like *writing* characters she hates (like the Dursleys), she still doesn't like the characters. I think if Tonks were a bad character, JKR would have answered the question with a simple 'she's hanging around'. My gut feeling on Tonks is that she is good. She was introduced in OotP to introduce the concept of Metamorphmagi. Because of what we have seen with polyjuice and Animagi, I am betting dollars to doughnuts that there will be at least one (probably more than one) other Metamorphmagus in the story. In fact, my money is on two more -- Harry and one of the Black sisters (Bellatrix or Narcissa). I think Tonks may be 'hanging around' as someone else, but I think she will do it to watch out for Harry or serve the Order. Helen From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 21:46:28 2004 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 21:46:28 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97454 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > > Uh, GOOD! I really want Sirius to be alive. And I also only read > OOP once, and am just now beginning the series again, starting of > couse with SS, so it might be a while before I get to reread OOP. > But if his name wasn't cleared, then perhaps the theory that he faked > his death could work, though I'm still unclear as to why. > > Susan, desperately wanting to believe that Sirius is alive. He could have faked his own death so he could be more help to the Order. If everyone thinks he is dead then they will no longer be looking for him and he could go about business "dog-like". I mentioned right after OOP came out that maybe Sirius was still alive but was shot down by most everyone. Unfortunately, JKR has made it pretty clear that he is indeed dead. Diana From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 22:20:39 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 22:20:39 -0000 Subject: Help with Lupin's boggart / Cockroaches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97455 I (Carol) wrote: I personally think that both scenes are red herrings to steer readers (and Harry) away from correctly interpreting Lupin's boggart as the moon. I really don't see why Lupin would lie to Hermione about his boggart being the moon when he's in the process of confessing that he's a werewolf. Anyway, I don't see a prophecy orb connection, but for what it's worth, crystal balls are definitely mentioned in connection with Lupin. Potioncat: No, I didn't see a prophecy orb connection either when I was only thinking of the boggart scenes in PoA. But when I re-read OoP, I began to have doubts. IIRC, in OoP his boggart is still referred to as an orb, not as a moon and that is one of the little details that is nagging at me. To answer your question, If (big if, I know) there was a prophecy made about Lupin that would cause him to fear it, then he might not want Hermione to know about it. So it's easier to throw her a red herring and call it a moon, since she can now associate it with being a werewolf, than to explain why he fears a prophecy orb. I know, other than the prophecy about Harry we haven't heard of any. But we know the DoM is full of them and we know there have been seers in the WW. So it isn't too far fetched to think they may be fairly common. Carol again: Given the number of rows devoted to "orbed" Prophecies in the DoM, I'd say you're right that they're pretty common. Nevertheless, I doubt that someone as obscure as Lupin, whose sole claim to fame (or notoriety) is that he's a werewolf, would be the subject of a Prophecy. OTOH, he could well have cause to fear his own future--no prospects for employment, premature aging, and involvement with the Order in a war against an evil wizard--I'd say Lupin's chances of reaching the age of forty are slim. So while I do think his boggart is the moon, I think the descriptions of it as an "orb" and the mistaken interpretation of it as a crystal ball may be red herrings that are also clues--by which I mean that they mislead us about his boggart so we won't guess too soon that he's a werewolf, but they're significant in another way as clues about Lupin and his fate. If Lupin isn't afraid of his future, why would he give Trelawney such a wide berth when she offered to read it in a crystal ball? Surely she already knew, with the rest of the faculty, that he was a werewolf, so that can't be what he's afraid she'll see. And McGonagall's "Imagine that," which implies that Lupin, like McGonagall herself, thinks Trelawney is a fraud, doesn't explain it, either. He could have smiled and declined politely instead of running away. Anyway, for what it's worth, here's the passage I had in mind. It occurs at the little Christmas luncheon with HRH and the professors in PoA. Professor McGonagall implies that Trelawney should have known from her "crystal gazing" that "dear Professor Lupin" was ill. (Quoted phrases are Trelawney's.) Trelawney replies: "If you must know, Minerva, I have seen that poor Professor Lupin will not be with us for very long. He seems aware, himself, that his time is short. He positively fled when I offered to crystal gaze for him--" (PoA am. ed. 229) Despite McGonagall's skepticism, this prediction, like the one about someone leaving the class around Easter, is at least partially accurate since Lupin is no longer a teacher five months later. But maybe there's more to it. Why *did* Lupin "positively flee" unless he was afraid of his own future? Carol From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 22:23:52 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 22:23:52 -0000 Subject: Q In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97456 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Miller" wrote: > --- JoAnna responded to this quote: > "What happened down in the dungeons between you and Professor > Quirrell is a complete secret, so, naturally, the whole school > knows." > > > > Constance Vigilance: > > > Um, just How, Exactly, would everyone know what happened between > > > Harry and Quirrell? >there. Mo: I think it was meant to be sort of humor on how rumors spread around. No one in the school really knew what went on, but rumors were flying about about what happened. DD was trying to make light of the situation. I think even Harry later states how close some of the rumors actually came to being true... But that might be one of the other books. ~Mo From SuzChiles at pobox.com Sat May 1 22:10:31 2004 From: SuzChiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 15:10:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97457 Potioncat says: > Harry's aware of the stir he causes, as he travels around Hogwarts, > I'm sure Snape is. So Snape tests Harry by asking difficult questions > from the reading material he assigned. Then makes the "fame isn't > everything..." comment. This can either be to distance himself from > the Dark Lord's bane,(in front of the DE children) or to deflate the > ego he expects of Potter. It also serves to show the other students > that they had better come to class prepared. Whoa, there. This incident happened on the very first day of Potions class in Harry's first year. Therefore, no reading assignments could possibly have been given yet. Suzanne From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 22:31:19 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 22:31:19 -0000 Subject: Help with Lupin's boggart / Cockroaches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97458 Carol wrote: I really don't see why Lupin would lie to Hermione about his boggart being the moon when he's in the process of confessing thathe's a werewolf. What could be more terrible in Hermione's eyes than that (unless he's a DE and a prophecy orb or crystal ball would somehow lead her to figure that out). Pippin responded: If Hermione *asks* Lupin whether his boggart is a full moon, but it's actually not, he'll have to lie about it and risk arousing Crookshanks, or tell the truth and have Sirius learn something Lupin might not want Sirius to know. Hermione doesn't know the right questions to ask, but Sirius does. Sirius sees Lupin's boggart in OOP, but by then the idea that it represents the full moon is planted in his mind. Interestingly, Lupin doesn't use the riddikulus spell on the boggart in OOP. He vanishes it. Carol again: I'm not sure I buy the part about Sirius (which I know is your link to ESE!Lupin), but I also wondered about Lupin's simply vanishing the boggart in OoP. Maybe it *is* the riddikulus spell, but he's so familiar with it that he doesn't have to say it out loud--silent magic of the type that Snape uses to write potions recipes on the board, as I mentioned in a post to a different thread. But if that were the case, wouldn't the boggart have assumed a ridiculous form before vanishing (becoming a cockroach or whatever)? Carol, who doesn't believe in ESE!Lupin but does think there's more to him than meets the eye From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 22:35:19 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 22:35:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Army (DA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97459 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jimlaming" wrote: > Help! I am wondering about the return of the DA in book 6 or 7. > Will Harry continue to lead it? Will he be up to it? Is there > anyone else who could? Will DD approve? > > I hope it returns and that Harry leads it. The sorting hat in OOP > challenged the school to find unity. The DA had that kind of > unifying power. DD would be well served to encourage it and help > shape it. > > JimLaming Mo: The whole reason the DA was set up was because Umbridge was there. Since she is not there anymore, I am assuming students will be able to get together freely to practice DADA. But, with that said, since it is increasingly dangerous times, I bet that a superb DADA teacher will be installed next year and DADA is going to change into a serious training/defence program now that everyone in the WW will know that LV is back. ~Mo From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat May 1 22:49:32 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 22:49:32 -0000 Subject: What about Tonks? Evil or good? In-Reply-To: <000201c42fc3$1853a680$6401a8c0@helenw1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97460 Helen wrote: My gut feeling on Tonks is that she is good. She was introduced in OotP to introduce the concept of Metamorphmagi. Because of what we have seen with polyjuice and Animagi, I am betting dollars to doughnuts that there will be at least one (probably more than one) other Metamorphmagus in the story. In fact, my money is on two more -- Harry and one of the Black sisters (Bellatrix or Narcissa). I think Tonks may be 'hanging around' as someone else, but I think she will do it to watch out for Harry or serve the Order. vmonte responds: I think your right about there being another Metamorph. And I'm not sure whether Tonks is good or bad (my past posts have gone either way), but I do believe that she will pose as someone, and probably die because of it. I like Tonks as well. I hope she is good, and I hope I'm wrong about her dying... vmonte From rredordead at aol.com Sat May 1 23:23:20 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 23:23:20 -0000 Subject: Poor Lucius was: Bellatrix's 'French' accent on the Audio tape/cd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97461 > Catherine McK > We know that these personas, while drawing on the individuals' > essential characters, are acts to an extent because of the way that > they tend to slip at moments of high emotion ? Draco running in > terror in the Forbidden Forest, Phineas when told of Sirius's > death, even Bellatrix in the Atrium when she realises she has failed Voldemort. The Blacks exaggerate for dramatic effect. It's only > when they are too tired, frightened, unhappy or honestly having fun > that we get the honest picture. > > No wonder Lucius sometimes sounds a bit weary in their company. Can > you imagine them all at the dinner table? Mandy here: Catherine you have actually made me feel sorry for Lucius Malfoy! Having the Black Family of Lunatics as your in-laws, would drive anyone insane. Although I suspect the Lucius is much of an inbred lunatic as his wife and her family are. Cheers, Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Sat May 1 23:39:21 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 23:39:21 -0000 Subject: Bellatrix's 'French' accent on the Audio tape/cd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97462 > The Sergeant Majorette addressed the troops, and in a command >voice, said When we meet Bellatrix in GoF, we are given *no* >information about her background. It's a shock to find out in OoP >that she's related to blonde Narcissa, nonexistent Andromeda and >Gryffindor Sirius. > I've never heard either recording, but as I read GoF, I "heard" a > foreign accent. Maybe she's like Kathleen Turner or Madonna (both > American women who have affected bewildering Continental accents.) > Jim Ferer wrote: > Good point - we didn't know a thing about her when we met her, but > Dale and Kthleen Hale (the audiobook director) could have made the > change in OOP. > OTOH, have a little pity for Jim Dale, who did his damndest to give > characters their own voices and did amazingly well. He wasn't going > to resist giving this character something distinctive. > Given that Bellatrix is such a lunatic, is it possible that Narcissa > is as well? Mandy here: Yes Jim is phenomenal, and I don't mean to criticize him although I think I actually did. When we first met Bellatrix, in GoF, we did not know her name and hence no choice could be made about her nationality or accent based on that. Of course Jim has to choose a voice for each character and to make them all different is got be a challenge. In OotP we found out who Bellatrix was, and her name Lestrange, which is indeed French sounding, but we also found out she was a Black sister and that info was revealed fairly close to the beginning of the book. So I'm intrigued by Jim's choice of accent for Bella, and wonder if he had any info from JKR's team. You are properly both right, though and Bellatrix is just a nutter of a drama queen. I guess we're going to have to wait to see if she makes an appearance in the GoF film or the next book, which ever comes first. I do think Narcissa is as much of a lunatic as her sister and family. After all, growing up with Bellatrix Lestrange as your sister couldn't be easy! I imagine Narcissa having to defend herself against Bellatrix's attempts to permanently damage her if she crossed her in any way. Visions of the Addams Family kids constantly trying to kill each other just popped into my head. Cheers, Mandy From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Sat May 1 23:41:44 2004 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 23:41:44 -0000 Subject: Time Travel (was Re: OWLS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97463 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Meredith" wrote: The problem with this is the way JKR has established time travel in her books. Unlike the type of time that exists in something like "Back to the Future" or "The Butterfly Effect," you can't go back in time and change things in HP, you can only fulfill what is happening. Bobby: I disagree. It is clear that under JKR's theory you can change history. True, time-traveling Harry and Hermione didn't change history in POA ? they just participated in events as they were supposed to happen (if that is the right way to put it). The problem is that JKR hasn't limited herself to just that ? she has Hermione telling Harry that McGonagall said that "loads of [time- traveling wizards and witches] ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake." (POA 21, p. 399.) That is definitely changing history. (It also leads to paradoxes: if "time-traveling Harry" had accidentally killed "pre-time-traveling Harry" when he was across the lake or dropped his wand and could not produce a Patronus ? either of which he could have done ? there would be no time- traveling Harry because pre-time-traveling Harry would be dead or have had the kiss administered and so would never have reached midnight to time-travel.) Also notice in POA that Harry wanted to run out the forest where he and Hermione were hiding to get Wormtail and Hermione had to grab him and warn him about changing history. If Harry had stopped Wormtail, all the events of that evening would have changed. Nothing but Hermione kept Harry from changing history. And if history has to be changed, why can't you just go back and kill off Tom Riddle? Or why doesn't LV just go back before Harry was born and kill James Potter as a baby before all this started? LV traveled through the period once so he could know a safe time to do it. And he can do in Neville for good measure while he's at it just in case. That's why it's a lousy plot device. If you can change history, well, you can do anything to the plot to make it come out the way you want. The story doesn't have to be restricted to what came before. All in all, if time-travel is used as a minor point (and I'm afraid time turning will come up again), that's ok. But if it becomes an essential part of the final events in the series, I will feel cheated. If JKR was going to use time-turning to solve the problem of LV, she could have just as easily had someone kill Tom Riddle off as a baby and avoid the whole problem. Why bother writing these stories if she had a cure-all in mind all along? She could pull anything she wants out of the hat unconstrained by logic or common sense. I'll feel cheated if that is how this whole thing ends. We will have been wasting time reading and thinking about an unsatisfying sci fi novel. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 1 23:49:08 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 23:49:08 -0000 Subject: portrait in GH -Nature of Movement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97465 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > I'm not saying it absolutely would not be a portrait of someone > > specifically from Hogwart's history, only that the field of likely > > candidate is far bigger and more likely if they are taken from > > general wizard history. > > Neri: > I had assumed that ONLY Hogwarts headmasters and headmistresses can > move between their different portraits in different houses (maybe > because they were powerful wizards in life) but now I see that DD's > words may be interpreted also as if any wizard with more than one > portrait can move between his portraits. I don't think this is true, > because in such a case everybody in the WW would have known about > it, and we would have heard about this before. ...edited... > > Neri bboy_mn: I think I see your points. One of which is that no one in the wizard world would have much privacy if every portrait could go running off and reveal what it had seen or overheard. That would be a major dis-incentive for anyone to have a portrait in their house. But regardless of the restrictions on the movements of portraits, just having a portrait in your house especially in your bedroom would, in my book, be an awkward invasion of privacy. Even more so for teenage boys who are often compelled to releave certain hormonal urges. (yes, an unpleasant subject, but a harsh reality of teen life.) My point is that even if portraits are very restricted in movement, they are still a substantial invasion of privacy. Let's look at what we know. All portrait characters appear to be able to move between portraits at the location where they are hung. Violet comes for the chamber off the Great Hall to the Fat Lady's portrait. When the Fat Lady is slashed she runs to other portraits. Sir Cadagon - the Mad Knight runs through several portrait to show Harry and Ron the way to Divinations class. These examples and other make my conclusion a reasonable extension of available information. So, we have now establish that portrait characters can move from portrait to portrait, but it seems inferred that Hogwarts portrait characters in general can not leave Hogwarts castle. Now Dumbledore adds a new concept, portrait characters who have portraits in other locations can move between those portraits. Based on the wizard who ran to find the injured Mr Weasley, once at the new location, they are again able to move from portrait to portrait. This second character's movement ability (location to location) seems a reasonable extension of the first ability to move (local portrait to local portrait). I see no reason to restrict it to Headmaster/headmistresses. Portraits of this nature are not going to be very common. Hand painted portraits are usually only found in rich people's house and public buildings (government offices and museums). My point here is that hand painted magical portraits are probably not a problem for the average wizard, because they can't afford them. In the case of Phineas Nigellus being in both Hogwarts and the Black house, you will notice that at the Black house, he was placed in a spare bedroom. The lack of prominent placement could be an indication that he was more liberal that the general Black clan, and therefore, did not rate placement in a place of honor, like above the fire mantel in the main lounge (living room). Logically, if you have a portrait character that you don't trust, you wouldn't put him in a location where he couldn't overhear or see much. Lucius Malfoy would indeed be unwise to plan his DE activities in front of a portrait of Phineas Nigellus, because Phineas has a higher allegiance to the current headmaster than he does to his family. I certainly can't say that you are wrong, but I think the location to location movement is a reasonable and logical extension of movement from portrait to portrait within the limitations that have been set. Dumbledore's reference to Head's portraits when he explains to Harry is not an absolute, but is driven by context. He is in a room of Head's portrait explaining something that is being done by Head's portraits. I see not reason for him to expained that explanation into a broad generalization when he has a perfect illustration right there. Just a thought. bboy_mn From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com Sun May 2 00:00:11 2004 From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (SiriusBlack4Eternity) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 17:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040502000011.20822.qmail@web14809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97466 dumbledore11214 wrote: Alla Now, Voldie is not back yet, so excuse of pretending in front of Slyths does not count and who exactly would notice anyway? SB4E: As far as the WW is concerned, Voldy isn't back until the end of OOTP, but we know better. DD and Snape aren't waiting until he is back to try and defeat him. Retroactive is not a good thing to be...instead they are being proactive. And while Malfoy doesn't know that Voldy is making his way back, you don't think that Draco will notice if Snape treats Harry as his new buddy? Draco, by the feast, has already had a run in with Harry, so he's already going to be watching every move he makes to report to daddy dearest. Snape needs to maintain his cover with his former DE pals in order to carry out his part in the Order when Voldy does return. Besides, based upon what Snape has seen of Harry, he is more convinced than ever that he is like James...careless, reckless, breaking as many rules as possible, putting others lives in danger, showing off, etc... And based on his experiences with James, it is no wonder that he has issues with Harry. And before anyone says that he is an adult and a teacher, it happens in the RW as well as the WW. It makes Snape a more realistic character, because people that have dealings, whether good or bad, with someone and then have to deal with the children of that person are going to treat those children according to the dealings they had with the parent. If they had bad dealings with the parent, they will assume the child is the same and treat them less friendly at the least and down right hostile at the worst...by the same token, if it is a child with whose parent they had good dealings with, then they treat the child more friendly, at least, and give them preferential treatment, at most. Neither is fair to the child, nor is it fair to the other children, but it happens. It's life and whether we like it or not, we are as guilty...we may not admit it...even to ourselves...as is Severus Snape. SiriusBlack4Eternity --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 00:06:00 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 00:06:00 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97467 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ivogun" wrote: > > > Lots of people have faulted Lupin for the Boggart!Snape thing > > w/ Neville (I don't). What *I* think was totally inappropriate > > in that scene was Snape's telling Lupin--in front of the whole > > class--that he'd better beware because Neville Longbottom was > > in the class. > > I don't fault Lupin either. Rowling, in one of her interviews mentioned that > Lupin is a teacher that she would like her own daughter to have. He's supposed > to be the model teacher, not Snape. The whole Boggart incident taught Neville > gave Neville a tool in being able to control his panic in Prof. Snape's class. > I think Neville was on the verge of cracking up under Snape. The Boggart class > reminds me of music teachers, who right before a recital, tell their panic > stricken students to imagine the audience sitting in their underwear. > > Ivogun I said many many times that I love, absolutely love Snape!Boggart scene. Besides the fact that I think it boosted Neville's confidence (even if we did not notice it till OoP), to me it was a perfect example how Bully gets the taste of his own medicine. I was riduculously happy that Snape and Neville switched places for once and Snape was in a humiliating position. Besides, that scene was REALLY funny to me. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 00:15:00 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 00:15:00 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: <20040502000011.20822.qmail@web14809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SiriusBlack4Eternity wrote: > > As far as the WW is concerned, Voldy isn't back until the end of OOTP, but we know better. DD and Snape aren't waiting until he is back to try and defeat him. Retroactive is not a good thing to be...instead they are being proactive. And while Malfoy doesn't know that Voldy is making his way back, you don't think that Draco will notice if Snape treats Harry as his new buddy? Draco, by the feast, has already had a run in with Harry, so he's already going to be watching every move he makes to report to daddy dearest. Snape needs to maintain his cover with his former DE pals in order to carry out his part in the Order when Voldy does return. Besides, based upon what Snape has seen of Harry, he is more convinced than ever that he is like James...careless, reckless, breaking as many rules as possible, putting others lives in danger, showing off, etc... And based on his experiences with James, it is no wonder that he has issues with Harry. Wait, wait a second. It is a first feast. Snape has not seen of ANYTHING of Harry yet. Why would he have blown his cover if he just ...I don't know ... ignored Harry? And before anyone says that he is an adult > and a teacher, it happens in the RW as well as the WW. It makes Snape a more realistic character, because people that have dealings, whether good or bad, with someone and then have to deal with the children of that person are going to treat those children according to the dealings they had with the parent. If they had bad dealings with the parent, they will assume the child is the same and treat them less friendly at the least and down right hostile at the worst...by the same token, if it is a child with whose parent they had good dealings with, then they treat the child more friendly, at least, and give them preferential treatment, at most. Neither is fair to the child, nor is it fair to the other children, but it happens. It's life and whether we like it or not, we are as guilty...we may not admit it...even to ourselves...as is Severus Snape. > > > > SiriusBlack4Eternity Well, as you probably guessed I am going to say that he is adult and a teacher. :o) He can have whatever feelings towards Harry he wants. IMO, he has no right to ACT upon these feelings. It does happen in RL. It does make the character of Snape to be very realistic. It does not make his treatment of Harry to be justifiable at all, IMO. Now, if it is all an act, that is a totally different story. But as I argued many times on this list, I am hesitant to believe that after OoP. Alla From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com Sun May 2 00:27:33 2004 From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (SiriusBlack4Eternity) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 17:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Faking Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040502002733.98250.qmail@web14803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97469 Diana: He could have faked his own death so he could be more help to the Order. If everyone thinks he is dead then they will no longer be looking for him and he could go about business "dog-like". I mentioned right after OOP came out that maybe Sirius was still alive but was shot down by most everyone. Unfortunately, JKR has made it pretty clear that he is indeed dead. SB4E: I am not saying he is alive (which would make me happy) or that he is dead (which I've resigned myself too), but what does people expect JKR to say? "No, Sirius is not dead...I just want you to think he is so that you won't guess what I've got planned next."? Even if he, in cohorts with DD, faked his death, do you think that JKR would tell us he's not dead? That would ruin part of the plot. So, for what it's worth, since he is "dead" at this point in time, I think JKR can say that without being a liar and still have his death faked. Because we are seeing things from Harry's POV that means that because he thinks Sirius is dead, we need to think that. Just my opinion though... SiriusBlack4Eternity --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 2 01:20:14 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 01:20:14 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97470 Alla: > Well, as you probably guessed I am going to say that he is adult and a teacher. :o) He can have whatever feelings towards Harry he wants. IMO, he has no right to ACT upon these feelings. > To me, this is a bit like saying Ron has no right to loathe spiders. I don't think Snape can help the way he reacts to Harry in the Great Hall. He may not even be aware of the expression on his face. Also, consider what Snape sees in this scene: the son of his old rival takes one look at him and claps his hand to his forehead in pain. I can see James doing that, miming that Snape is so ugly that it actually hurts to look at him. "Mr. Prongs agrees with Mr. Moony, and would like to add that Professor Snape is an ugly git." In which case, Snape might think he has grounds to think Harry is a second edition of his arrogant dad. I think that when JKR says Snape is a sadistic teacher, she means it. He *is* like Bella, but to a far lesser degree. But that's important. From's Snape's point of view he may be showing admirable restraint and treating both Harry and Neville much better than he would like to. Pippin From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com Sun May 2 01:22:45 2004 From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (SiriusBlack4Eternity) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 18:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040502012245.3743.qmail@web14803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97471 Alla: Wait, wait a second. It is a first feast. Snape has not seen of ANYTHING of Harry yet. Why would he have blown his cover if he just ...I don't know ... ignored Harry? SB4E: Go back and re-read the passage...I think that a lot of people are mixing up movie contamination with the books. As I am currently re-reading SS/PS, I was reading the section...Snape does nothing more than to look past Quirrel at Harry. It says directly into Harry's eyes...now all we have to go on was that Harry has "feelings" from the look that he doesn't like him. The book gives us no evidence that Snape did anything at all in that scene that was inappropriate. Alla: Well, as you probably guessed I am going to say that he is adult and a teacher. :o) He can have whatever feelings towards Harry he wants. IMO, he has no right to ACT upon these feelings. It does happen in RL. It does make the character of Snape to be very realistic. It does not make his treatment of Harry to be justifiable at all, IMO. SB4E: Whether anyone has a right to act on feelings they have toward a child in a situation like this is a mute point...they do. It doesn't matter that it's not fair to judge the child based on the actions of a parent, it happens. Everyone...some will deny it...but, everyone will do it if in the position to interact with the child of someone that they knew. Sometimes we do it knowingly, but many times we may not even realize that we are doing it. Is it right? No. Is it justifiable? No, because if it is not right, it can't be justifiable. But it happens, irregardless...somethings are hard to get over and in Snape's case, being bullied at school by perfect Potter after being abused at home was it... and whether we (or Snape) realizes that we are doing it, I can guarantee that the child notices...thus we get Harry's point of view and as a teacher, I can guarantee that the actions from the child's POV will be magnified about 1o times or more...making any indiscretions a lot worse than they really were. I'm not saying that Snape is justified, but he has his feelings to try and battle and on top of that, he has Harry's blatant disregard for rules, etc to try to work through as well. I just think it makes him very realistic and a much more fun character. SiriusBlack4Eternity --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 01:32:37 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 01:32:37 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: <20040502012245.3743.qmail@web14803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SiriusBlack4Eternity wrote: > > SB4E: > > Go back and re-read the passage...I think that a lot of people are mixing up movie contamination with the books. As I am currently re- reading SS/PS, I was reading the section...Snape does nothing more than to look past Quirrel at Harry. It says directly into Harry's eyes...now all we have to go on was that Harry has "feelings" from the look that he doesn't like him. The book gives us no evidence that Snape did anything at all in that scene that was inappropriate. > I will definitely reread the passage. :o) > > > > > SB4E: > > Whether anyone has a right to act on feelings they have toward a child in a situation like this is a mute point...they do. It doesn't matter that it's not fair to judge the child based on the actions of a parent, it happens. Everyone...some will deny it...but, everyone will do it if in the position to interact with the child of someone that they knew. Sometimes we do it knowingly, but many times we may not even realize that we are doing it. Is it right? No. Is it justifiable? No, because if it is not right, it can't be justifiable. But it happens, irregardless...somethings are hard to get over and in Snape's case, being bullied at school by perfect Potter after being abused at home was it... and whether we (or Snape) realizes that we are doing it, I can guarantee that the child notices...thus we get Harry's point of view and as a teacher, I can guarantee that the actions from the child's POV will be magnified about 1o times or more...making any indiscretions a lot worse than > they really were. I'm not saying that Snape is justified, but he has his feelings to try and battle and on top of that, he has Harry's blatant disregard for rules, etc to try to work through as well. I just think it makes him very realistic and a much more fun character. > > SiriusBlack4Eternity > > Sorry, to me no matter how much Harry may exaggerate Snape's hatred or "supposed hatred" of him, we also see Snape's actions and they speak for themselves. I disagree. The teacher does not have a right to act upon his personal feelings towards the child. I had quite a few wonderful teachers in school and I still remember what my favourite teacher told me once. That if it was up to her, half of my classmates were in jail. Trust me, she did not act like that towards those children at all. You don't get any argument from me that Snape is a fun character, nevertheless I have strong urge to slap him quite a few times. :o) Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 01:37:25 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 01:37:25 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > To me, this is a bit like saying Ron has no right to loathe spiders. > I don't think Snape can help the way he reacts to Harry in the > Great Hall. He may not even be aware of the expression on his > face. Also, consider what Snape sees in this scene: the son of > his old rival takes one look at him and claps his hand to his > forehead in pain. I can see James doing that, miming that Snape > is so ugly that it actually hurts to look at him. "Mr. Prongs agrees > with Mr. Moony, and would like to add that Professor Snape is an > ugly git." In which case, Snape might think he has grounds to > think Harry is a second edition of his arrogant dad. Yes, Pippin if James did something like that, you maybe right, but there is no support for that in the books. Are you saying that Snape can't control his reactions towards Harry? He is superb Occlumenc, according to Lupin, he is supposed to be in perfect control of his emotions. (If we are to believe Lupin's words, of course, which I am inclined to, sort of. :o)) No, I see no comparison to Ron's phobia. If Ron got a job working with spiders, that would be closer. :o) I would say then that he had to quit and fast. Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 01:46:31 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 01:46:31 -0000 Subject: Mandatory mandrakes (Was: Albus Dumbledore: the myth and the man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97474 > Annemehr wrote: > Perhaps a simple explanation is that mandrakes are indeed hard (and > expensive) to get, so that Professor Sprout only manages to do so, > say, once every five years or so. Thus, when she does have mandrakes, > she teaches them to every year's students who haven't already seen > them. The only problem with this theory is that, as far as I know, > mandrake plants are not actually that rare. On the other hand, > *magical* mandrakes may indeed be rarer than mundane ones, similar to > wand trees and normal trees. Carol: Which leads me to wonder, are there magical owls and regular owls, or are all owls magical? Could the owls in the Forbidden Forest be trained by a wizard to be post owls, or are they the animal equivalent of Muggles, who can't understand human speech, much less find a recipient without an address? And what about cats? Are Mrs. Norris and Mr. Tibbles magical cats (with or without a bit of Kneazle in them like Crookshanks) or just ordinary housecats who have an uncanny bond with their Squib owners (and, in Filch's case, a physical resemblance as well)? I'm thinking, too, of the obviously magical, tail-skipping black rats in the pet shop in Diagon Alley in PoA, which were said to have a longer lifespan than common street rats like Scabbers appeared to be. Admittedly Peter was able to talk with ordinary rats in his animagus form--in fact, their stories of a shadow that possessed small animals led him to Voldemort--so they're pretty intelligent for nonmagical animals, but I still think that with rats, at least, some are magical and some aren't. I'm less sure about owls and cats. And for that matter, toads, the third animal on the approved pet list for first-years. Anyone have any ideas on this? Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 02:13:59 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 02:13:59 -0000 Subject: Vernon and his Rifle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97475 Caius Marcius wrote: A question: > > In Chap. 3 of SS/PS, in his mad flight from Little Whinging, Vernon > disappears briefly and returns "carrying a long, thin package and > didn't answer Aunt Petunia when she asked what he'd bought." Later, > when Hagrid enters at the beginning of the next chapter, we discover > Vernon "holding a rifle in his hands -- now they knew what had been > in the long, thin package he had brought with them." > > Now, even in the US most places now have a waiting period of a few > days As I understand it, Britain's gun control laws are much stricter > than America's. Could Vernon have purchased a rifle so quickly in > late 1990s Britain? Carol: I don't know anything about gun laws in Britain or anywhere else, but I'm pretty sure that SS/PS takes place in 1991, so gun laws could have changed between that time and 1997, the copyright date of the book. Carol, who usually skips the filks but enjoys yours when she reads them From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun May 2 02:15:03 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 21:15:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mandatory mandrakes (Was: Albus Dumbledore: the myth and the man) References: Message-ID: <006501c42feb$47be7260$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97476 Carol: Which leads me to wonder, are there magical owls and regular owls, or are all owls magical? Could the owls in the Forbidden Forest be trained by a wizard to be post owls, or are they the animal equivalent of Muggles, who can't understand human speech, much less find a recipient without an address? And what about cats? Are Mrs. Norris and Mr. Tibbles magical cats (with or without a bit of Kneazle in them like Crookshanks) or just ordinary housecats who have an uncanny bond with their Squib owners (and, in Filch's case, a physical resemblance as well)? ...but I still think that with rats, at least, some are magical and some aren't. I'm less sure about owls and cats. And for that matter, toads, the third animal on the approved pet list for first-years. Anyone have any ideas on this? **Silverthorne tentatively raises a hand** I'm of two minds on this, really. In most animals cases, as you pointed out Carol, there are obviously magical and non-magical versions. (A quick side note on 'normal' rats---they are highly intelligent as a rule--it;s part of the reason they are often used in psychological experiments. Also a note from someone who made it to second semester in pyschology--our teacher brought in a real life rat brain to illustrate that very point, and another--their minds work on very similar lines to a humans--and in fact, their brains look almost exactly like a tiny human brain...no joke...cortex and all....) Now, back to cats, owls and toads... I tend to think of them according to function rather then capacity, if that makes sense. Cats seem to be sort of extra ears and eyes for their human partners in the WW...basically, they're furry little spies. McGonagall even seems to serve this function in the first chapter of PS/SS--watching over Privet Drive all day and reporting to DD when he shows. I also tend to ascribe to the idea that *most* if not *all* cats are somewhat magical--it's an innate part of their nature (unless, of course, you talking about a cat like our oh-so-inbred rescue tortie-point siamese, who is mentally handicapped twice--once from the siamese inbreeding, and once by the 'natural' bent of torties to be slightly off their rocker, at least by my experiences with the 6 I've shared my life with over the years...^^;). I would say any cat, save those that are way too inbred due to human interference, are 95% likely to be 'magical'--and a good many of the magical ones likely have Kneazle in the bloodline somewhere... Owls....I would guess *many* owls are magical-especially if you take into account that just about every culture on the planet has magical legends based on them--either having to do with death, omens and prophecy, or wisdom and the will of the gods, depending on who you ask. The problem is that owls are wild...so you would have to catch them and 'tame' them to do what you asked...so I would give them about 95% chance...but only about a 50/50 chance that any one particular owl would deign to be caught and tamed and trained...which means most of the ones in the WW might be the result of intentional breeding on the part of those witches and wizards who have a knack for raising them for such purposes (which is probably where the shops in Diagon Alley get their stock from). No doubt those suited for Owl post and Familiar duties have a higher intellegence than their wild counterparts too--an intentional addition through the breeding programs to ensure that folks are getting the smartest owls around... Frogs/Toads....erm....other then very vague medeval Church assertions that they are the companions of witches and the instrument of the Devil...they don;t really have an active role as a familiar...what legends (Sans Native American/Shaman paths) have to actaully *Say* about toads is very little--except as cures in some way for things like warts, physical ailments, and so on, depending on what you do to the toad. Other then the totemic version, Toad/Frog doesn't seem to have much intelligence....(Unless you beleive the Inquisitirs claims that they're really demons in disguise), so I would be more likely to consider them a ready-made potions ingredient than an intelligent, co-operative, active participant in a witch or wizards life....and since JKR hasn;t given Trevor much of a memorable personality other then getting 'lost' all the time (common even with your garden variety amphibian if you don't keep a close watch on it), I'm not inclined to change my assessment... Just a few thoughts.... Silverthorne From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 2 02:36:48 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 02:36:48 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97477 Pippin, before: >> Also, consider what Snape sees in this scene: the son of his old rival takes one look at him and claps his hand to his forehead in pain. I can see James doing that, miming that Snape is so ugly that it actually hurts to look at him. "Mr. Prongs agrees with Mr. Moony, and would like to add that Professor Snape is an ugly git." [PoA ch 14] In which case, Snape might think he has grounds to think Harry is a second edition of his arrogant dad.<< Alla: > Yes, Pippin if James did something like that, you maybe right, but there is no support for that in the books.< Pippin: We have canon that James thought Snape was ugly and had no hesitation about hurting him--and Snape has a way of putting two and two together. He doesn't know that Harry's scar hurt, so he can't know the real reason for Harry's actions. What was he supposed to think? Alla: > Are you saying that Snape can't control his reactions towards Harry? He is superb Occlumenc, according to Lupin, he is supposed to be in perfect control of his emotions. (If we are to believe Lupin's words, of course, which I am inclined to, sort of. :o)) > Pippin: Oh, I always believe what Lupin says It's the way people interpret what he says that I have a problem with. But if we suppose that Snape is using occlumency in this scene "to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in [Voldemort's] presence" (OOP 24) then we can't suppose that hateful look is entirely representative of Snape's feelings, can we. We might imagine Snape walking a tightrope in PS/SS, using his hatred of Harry as a shield against legilimency while desperately trying not to act on it. Alla: > No, I see no comparison to Ron's phobia. If Ron got a job working with spiders, that would be closer. :o) I would say then that he had to quit and fast.< Pippin: Now that's interesting. Suppose Snape went to Dumbledore immediately after the feast and tried to quit--do you think Dumbledore would have let him do it? Pippin From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com Sun May 2 02:41:06 2004 From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (SiriusBlack4Eternity) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 19:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040502024106.87506.qmail@web14811.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97478 Alla: Sorry, to me no matter how much Harry may exaggerate Snape's hatred or "supposed hatred" of him, we also see Snape's actions and they speak for themselves. SB4E: We see them from Harry's POV...I'm not saying they should be overlooked, but they are going to be exaggerated by Harry. Alla: I disagree. The teacher does not have a right to act upon his personal feelings towards the child. SB4E: You either missed what I said or misread it...I did not say the teacher has a right to act upon personal feelings...I said they do it whether it's right or not. Alla: I had quite a few wonderful teachers in school and I still remember what my favourite teacher told me once. That if it was up to her, half of my classmates were in jail. Trust me, she did not act like that towards those children at all. SB4E: But that she said that to you, was wrong. She should never have voiced her feelings to another student. It is in it's own way, favortism...She showed favortism to you and put down others in front of a peer. That was wrong. Alla: You don't get any argument from me that Snape is a fun character, nevertheless I have strong urge to slap him quite a few times. :o) SB4E: Finally, we agree ...lol...I love his character...his slightly evil tendencies and all. And even though I love Snape, I rolled at the boggart scene. SiriusBlack4Eternity ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! 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Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 02:46:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 02:46:27 -0000 Subject: Full moon question for the folklorists Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97479 I haven't studied werewolves (or vampires, for that matter), so I can't answer this question, but maybe some of the folklorists can. How long is a "full moon"? Is it just one night, or does each phase (new moon, first quarter, full moon, last quarter) last about a week for werewolves as it does on a Muggle calendar? In other words, how many days each month would Lupin be confined to the Shrieking Shack (or his living quarters at Hogwarts)? Surely it can't be a full week. Even five days each month seems like a lot to manage without arousing the suspicions of many students. But one night--*the* full moon--seems like too short a time. Anyone have authoritative opinions on this? BTW, for anyone who's interested in Lupin's monthly transformations and how they fit with the calendar for a particular year, I found a site with phases of the moon for every year from 1700-2035: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.html BTW, the site shows the full moon for December 1993 as falling on December 28, but Lupin missed the Christmas luncheon three days earlier. Either JKR had her dates slightly wrong, or Lupin's transformation was already beginning three days before the official full moon, which would suggest that his transformations last about six days. As for Godric's Hollow, the full moon was on October 23, so even if the transformation lasted a full week (October 20 to October 26), he would have been back to his human form that time. And September 1, 1993, the day of Hogwarts Express trip, was the exact date for the full moon that month, so if JKR were following the calendar, he should have been in full werewolf mode rather than recovering from a recent transformation, which is how I read his tiredness, pallor, and hoarseness (from howling) in that scene. Carol Carol From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 02:49:41 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 02:49:41 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97480 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Pippin: > We have canon that James thought Snape was ugly and had no > hesitation about hurting him--and Snape has a way of putting > two and two together. He doesn't know that Harry's scar hurt, so > he can't know the real reason for Harry's actions. What was he > supposed to think? OK, but to me touching his forehead does not even come close to Harry mimicking Snape. :o) Of course, we often see what we want to see in the actions of other person, so again you may be right. > Pippin: > Oh, I always believe what Lupin says It's the way people > interpret what he says that I have a problem with. But if we > suppose that Snape is using occlumency in this scene "to shut > down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and > so utter falsehoods in [Voldemort's] presence" (OOP 24) then we > can't suppose that hateful look is entirely representative of > Snape's feelings, can we. We might imagine Snape walking a > tightrope in PS/SS, using his hatred of Harry as a shield against > legilimency while desperately trying not to act on it. > Nope, that is not what I meant. I just meant that in general Snape supposed to be in control of his emotions. I DON'T think that he is always in control of his emotions since I read Shrieking Shack scene, actually. I especially don't think that he is in control of his emotions since OoP, since I think that pensieve scene is the perfect example of how his emotions got the best or should I say the worst of him. :o) > Pippin: > Now that's interesting. Suppose Snape went to Dumbledore > immediately after the feast and tried to quit--do you think > Dumbledore would have let him do it? > LOL, Pippin! Imagine that scene. :o) Do you seriously think though that Snape did not know that harry is coming to Hogwarts? Then he is not a good candidate for the role of Dumbledore's trusting lutenant. Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 03:11:55 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 03:11:55 -0000 Subject: The Problem with Lupin (long) was Re: How Close Are Harry and Lupin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97481 > Naama: > But the improbabilities I am referring are of a different kind. > When Harry and Ron transformed to Crabbe and Goyle, they kept > their ownpersonalities. Therefore, regardless of the magical > transformation part, it's highly improbable that in ten months DD > wouldn't sensethat his old friend Moody has had a personality > transplant. > > Pippin: > Voldemort had one high-functioning paranoid impersonate > another. There is something scarily plausible about that, like a > science fiction story where Hitler wakes up in Stalin's body. > There's only so many ways a person can be disfunctional. > Dumbledore would have perceived that Moody was acting > strange, but not stranger than usual. Carol : Also Crouch!Moody had the real Moody under an Imperius Curse and by his own admission questioned him thoroughly about his habits and history so he could impersonate him convincingly. Also he quite felicitously shared Moody's dislikes, so he could antagonize Snape without being suspected--or so he must have assumed. That magical eye helped, too, because it made everyone too nervous to spend much time with him or to look him in the face. As for Dumbledore, he probably spent very little time with any of the teachers except at meals, when Crouch!Moody was drinking from his hip flask exactly as the real Moody would have done. As I've said before, I do think that bits and pieces of evidence--all of it presumably reported to him by others, including Snape and the portraits--created suspicions in DD's mind long before the Tri-Wizard Tournament. Incidents like turning Draco into a ferret and Imperioing the students would have come to his attention in some way, and I think he would have wondered at that point what was wrong with Moody (as opposed to suspecting that someone was impersonating him). As someone else noted, the Pensieve scene suggests that DD was exploring links between Crouch and Moody even before the disappearance of Mr. Crouch--at which point, IMO, "Moody's" too-speedy arrival on the scene may have aroused DD's suspicions even more, especially if Snape denied sending him into the forest. Nevertheless, I think that Dumbledore is slow to accuse and his sense of fairness (innocent until proven guilty) would have kept him from speaking openly until Crouch!Moody's actions at the Tri-Wizard Tournament made his guilt undeniable. Rather than *suddenly* figuring out exactly what happened (which struck me as unrealistic the first time I read the book), he must have been thinking about it all along, and at that point the last piece of the puzzle slipped into place--he knew who "Moody" was--which is why he had no hesitation about asking Snape to fetch Winky. Carol From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun May 2 03:12:36 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 22:12:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists References: Message-ID: <006c01c42ff3$51db4720$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97482 Carol: I haven't studied werewolves (or vampires, for that matter), so I can't answer this question, but maybe some of the folklorists can. How long is a "full moon"? Is it just one night, or does each phase (new moon, first quarter, full moon, last quarter) last about a week for werewolves as it does on a Muggle calendar? In other words, how many days each month would Lupin be confined to the Shrieking Shack (or his living quarters at Hogwarts)? Surely it can't be a full week. Even five days each month seems like a lot to manage without arousing the suspicions of many students. But one night--*the* full moon--seems like too short a time. Anyone have authoritative opinions on this? Silverthorne: Well, if you go by legend, it would be *only* the night of the 'offical' full moon. If you go by science....He would be a werewolf for probably all of 10 minutes to an hour--the amount of time that the moon would 'fully' reflect the light of the sun. If you go by what the Moon looks like in the sky (IE--taking into account that Remus didn't change into the werewolf until he actaully *saw* the full moon A LA cinematic liscence), then he has three nights in which he would need to be careful--because the moon 'looks' full for a day before and a day after the 'real' full moon. What has always puzzled me about the folk loric lycanthropy is this--what happens to werewolves on months when the moon is up *During The Day*? It does happen--so, does the sunlight 'cancel out' the effect of the full moon? Or do the poor victims actaully end up changing in broad daylight?? I've enver seen this one explained...what do you guys think? Carol: BTW, for anyone who's interested in Lupin's monthly transformations and how they fit with the calendar for a particular year, I found a site with phases of the moon for every year from 1700-2035: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.html Silverthorne: Cool. Carol: BTW, the site shows the full moon for December 1993 as falling on December 28, but Lupin missed the Christmas luncheon three days earlier. Either JKR had her dates slightly wrong, or Lupin's transformation was already beginning three days before the official full moon, which would suggest that his transformations last about six days. As for Godric's Hollow, the full moon was on October 23, so even if the transformation lasted a full week (October 20 to October 26), he would have been back to his human form that time. And September 1, 1993, the day of Hogwarts Express trip, was the exact date for the full moon that month, so if JKR were following the calendar, he should have been in full werewolf mode rather than recovering from a recent transformation, which is how I read his tiredness, pallor, and hoarseness (from howling) in that scene. Silverthorne: Interesting points, all. To address the loss of days/ the amount of time Remus is MIA while 'sick' with lycanthropy--if it's something like a magical virus, it might have a build up time, the actual 'viral' results, and then a few days for the body to recover--rather like a cold or a flu that lasts more than a day or two--you start out not feeling too hot for a few days, then suffer the major symptoms for a few days, and then have a period where you're recovering but still not feeling too hot. As for the moon phase inaccuracies--either JKR did not consult a lunar calandar and just guessed, or intentionally altered the RL facts to fit the story. Going back to a recent quite from her where she stated that she didn't really expect her work to be analyized, I suspect that being 'accurate' according to actaul lunar dates was not high on her list. Heck, for all we know, in her verion of the world, the moon has a longer or shorter timetable than the real moon's 28.whatever days...Personally,. I think just just had a full moon happen when she needed on to happen--it's not like a majority of her audience is going to pick apart whether or not she got the dates right on....lol Silverthorne From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun May 2 03:22:44 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 13:22:44 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists In-Reply-To: <006c01c42ff3$51db4720$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <4094F624.32113.8F04BB@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 97483 On 1 May 2004 at 22:12, Silverthorne wrote: > What has always puzzled me about the folk loric lycanthropy is this--what > happens to werewolves on months when the moon is up *During The Day*? It > does happen--so, does the sunlight 'cancel out' the effect of the full moon? > Or do the poor victims actaully end up changing in broad daylight?? I've > enver seen this one explained...what do you guys think? Just for astronomical reference - a full moon is pretty much never up during the day. A full moon will rise at sunset and set at sunrise (or at least very close to those times - off the equator, there is a little bit of leeway to work with, but not much). So the question doesn't arise in folklore - because it doesn't happen. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun May 2 03:26:17 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 22:26:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists References: <4094F624.32113.8F04BB@localhost> Message-ID: <007801c42ff5$3b854820$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97484 > What has always puzzled me about the folk loric lycanthropy is this--what > happens to werewolves on months when the moon is up *During The Day*? It > does happen--so, does the sunlight 'cancel out' the effect of the full moon? > Or do the poor victims actaully end up changing in broad daylight?? I've > enver seen this one explained...what do you guys think? Just for astronomical reference - a full moon is pretty much never up during the day. A full moon will rise at sunset and set at sunrise (or at least very close to those times - off the equator, there is a little bit of leeway to work with, but not much). So the question doesn't arise in folklore - because it doesn't happen. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun May 2 03:28:19 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 22:28:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists References: <4094F624.32113.8F04BB@localhost> Message-ID: <007a01c42ff5$8419e8c0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97485 Just for astronomical reference - a full moon is pretty much never up during the day. A full moon will rise at sunset and set at sunrise (or at least very close to those times - off the equator, there is a little bit of leeway to work with, but not much). So the question doesn't arise in folklore - because it doesn't happen. Silverthorne Odd, because I have seen something at least close to a full moon during the day here in Texas, as well as when I lived in Tucson, Arizona--at about the same latitude....guess I'll have to see if I can't get a picture of it for you sometime. Or maybe its not a full moon but something close? From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun May 2 03:53:46 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 13:53:46 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists In-Reply-To: <007a01c42ff5$8419e8c0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <4094FD6A.29408.AB6C1A@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 97486 On 1 May 2004 at 22:28, Silverthorne wrote: > Odd, because I have seen something at least close to a full moon during the > day here in Texas, as well as when I lived in Tucson, Arizona--at about the > same latitude....guess I'll have to see if I can't get a picture of it for > you sometime. Or maybe its not a full moon but something close? Well, the further you get away from totality, the more leeway you have. I'm using Houston, Texas, for reference here, simply because I know it's latitude without having to look it up. Let's consider tomorrow. Tomorrow the moon will be 94.9% full at moonrise at Houston - pretty close to a full moon. That will occur at 17:53 local time. The sun will set at 19:59. So that's over two hours when a near full moon will be in the sky at the same time as the sun - low in the sky, certainly - at sunset it will have just reached 25 degrees elevation. You can get that type of leeway. A nearly full moon, low in the sky a little before sunset, or a little after sunrise. But in terms of lycanthropic folklore - when that happens, you are still definitely going to get a full moon during the night - it may rise just before sunset, it may set just after sunrise, depending on the circumstances - but it will be shining virtually the entire night. So there will be a full moon in the night anyway. You won't get a situation where you have a near full moon in daylight *without* the night having a full moon. To bring this onto Harry Potter - I'm currently writing a longish post attempting to analyse all astronomical references in Harry Potter - is there any real interest in this? I've done fairly large posts before (most recently looking at the match or lack thereof between what Harry saw during his Astronomy exam and the actual night sky over Hogwarts on that date) and a couple of people took me to task for posting it here, saying it was too long. I don't really agree but I don't want to annoy people unnecessarily. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 2 04:15:55 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 04:15:55 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97487 Potioncat:(snipping most of my original post) So Snape tests Harry by asking difficult questions from the reading material he assigned. suzanne wrote: > > Whoa, there. This incident happened on the very first day of Potions class > in Harry's first year. Therefore, no reading assignments could possibly have > been given yet. > Potioncat again: Well, I'm working without a copy of SS and I could certainly be wrong about this idea. But I do recall Snape referring to "not opening the book" I think someone else has provided the quote. I'm not sure when I caught that phrase, but I remember being surprised there had already been assignments. Although that's the way I understood it. I assumed the list of books included a reading list as well. In later books it's stated very clearly that there are homework assignments over the summer break. Potioncat From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun May 2 04:19:38 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 23:19:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists References: <4094FD6A.29408.AB6C1A@localhost> Message-ID: <007e01c42ffc$af3581c0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97488 Shaun: Well, the further you get away from totality, the more leeway you have. I'm using Houston, Texas, for reference here, simply because I know it's latitude without having to look it up. Silverthorne: I'm up by Dallas, Texas--which is, according to my atlas, just slightly south of the 33 degree longitude line. Tucson Arizona is about 3/4 south of the same line. Houston is 'just' North of the 29 degree line. So I would *guess* that's a decent leeway--a 3-4 degree difference anyway. Shaun: Let's consider tomorrow. Tomorrow the moon will be 94.9% full at moonrise at Houston - pretty close to a full moon. That will occur at 17:53 local time. The sun will set at 19:59 You can get that type of leeway. A nearly full moon, low in the sky a little before sunset, or a little after sunrise. You won't get a situation where you have a near full moon in daylight *without* the night having a full moon. Silverthorne: Oh, I'm not arguing THAT point--What I'm playing at is the fact that the sun *is* up at the same time as the full moon sometimes--and that's what I'm wondering about. The full moon is UP *before* the sun sets--and yet the were wolf legends never seem to take that into account....so it still begs the question--does the sun counter act the effects, or is it simply that folklore doesn't take that into account since it's basically all about 'darkness' and 'evil' (something normally associated with 'evil' things way back when the legends first started)? And if Rowling (or *any* author for that matter) were to take the fact that the full moon can rise *before* sunset (or stay in the sky *after* sunrise), then how would they explain the descrepency? It's still a full moon--it's still reflecting visible light Earthwards--so the werewolf would still see it, and would, in theory, still be 'hit' with it. So why doesn't it make them change then? Which goes back to my original post--what constitutes a 'full' moon for a were wolf? If its number of days, then we have an inaccuracy (because Lupin is not a were that whole time). If it's activated by 'the phase of the full moon', then it's still inaccurate, because the moon is not always convieniently full at night, high over head--and it further begs the question of what happens to weres on the oppostie side of the planet from the 'full' moon? Do they 'beg out' on that month since they aren;t actaully expsoed to it? Appearently not. And then, again, the ultimate werewolf question--if it's activated by *seeing* the full moon--as most legends nowadays tend to ascreibe to (as does Rowling with her cinematic treatment of Lupin changing when the moon came out from behind a cloud), then the hole there is that they *should* change when they see the moon--even if it's up during daylight hours....which is why I ask....why is that not thought of? Shaun: To bring this onto Harry Potter - I'm currently writing a longish post attempting to analyse all astronomical references in Harry Potter - is there any real interest in this? I've done fairly large posts before (most recently looking at the match or lack thereof between what Harry saw during his Astronomy exam and the actual night sky over Hogwarts on that date) and a couple of people took me to task for posting it here, saying it was too long. I don't really agree but I don't want to annoy people unnecessarily. Silverthorne: I would be interested, even if it doesn't make it to the board...one can never learn too much...unless you live in the literary works of HP Lovecraft...then it cna be a problem--for your sanity at least...;) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 04:20:53 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 04:20:53 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat again: > Well, I'm working without a copy of SS and I could certainly be wrong > about this idea. But I do recall Snape referring to "not opening the > book" I think someone else has provided the quote. > > I'm not sure when I caught that phrase, but I remember being > surprised there had already been assignments. Although that's the > way I understood it. I assumed the list of books included a reading > list as well. In later books it's stated very clearly that there are > homework assignments over the summer break. > > Potioncat Could you please, please provide a quote? I am under very stron assumption that there were no assignments yet before they started Hogwarts. Why would it be? I would say that at least Muggle-born children are not expected to know anything about magic yet. Hermione is an exception, of course. :o) I would think that teachers would want to provide some guidance before assigning ANY reading to the first years. Alla From editor at texas.net Sun May 2 04:24:02 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 23:24:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists References: <4094FD6A.29408.AB6C1A@localhost> Message-ID: <000f01c42ffd$4d7ebf40$3a5aaacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97490 Shaun: > You won't get a situation where you have a near full moon in > daylight *without* the night having a full moon. > > To bring this onto Harry Potter - I'm currently writing a longish > post attempting to analyse all astronomical references in Harry > Potter - is there any real interest in this? I've done fairly large > posts before (most recently looking at the match or lack thereof > between what Harry saw during his Astronomy exam and the actual > night sky over Hogwarts on that date) and a couple of people took > me to task for posting it here, saying it was too long. I don't > really agree but I don't want to annoy people unnecessarily. *laughs* So annoying people necessarily is fine? I, for one, would be interested in reading it. Alternately, you could write it up essay-style and stick it into the files, which would allow readers to access it in Word format (because from what I recall of your earlier post, I wished you could have had diagrams to illustrate). Or do both. [I also think you should do up a paper and submit it to one of the conferences popping up like mushrooms across the landscape.] ~Amanda, speaking for herself From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Sun May 2 05:07:45 2004 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 05:07:45 -0000 Subject: Occasions Upon Which HP is Aware of a Sensation in His Scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97491 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marcelle" wrote: > > When I get out of school, I want to make a list of every single > time in canon when Harry tells the reader that he is aware of his > scar. From that list, I hope to be able to discern what the exact > significance of the scar sensation was at that particular time. > > > celletiger. I would love to see a complete list of all the instances in which Harry's scar hurts. IMHO it still is far from clear what exactly it is that makes Harry's scar hurt. Dumbledore told us that Harry's scar hurts when Voldemort is close by or when Voldemort is feeling a particularly strong emotion. That still doesn't explain *why* Harry's scar hurts in those circumstances. That also doesn't explain the instances in which those circumstances don't seem to apply. There are a number of instances where Harry's scar hurts when Voldemort is not close by and does not seem to have a clear reason for feeling any particularly strong emotions. If you do make a list, I hope you will also include the possible cause (s) (if they can be determined) of the pain in Harry's scar in each instance. -Maus Come see my KITTENS & RAINBOWS theory website: http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun May 2 05:22:22 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 15:22:22 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists In-Reply-To: <007e01c42ffc$af3581c0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <4095122E.15598.FC900A@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 97492 On 1 May 2004 at 23:19, Silverthorne wrote: > Silverthorne: > Oh, I'm not arguing THAT point--What I'm playing at is the fact that the sun > *is* up at the same time as the full moon sometimes--and that's what I'm > wondering about. The full moon is UP *before* the sun sets--and yet the were > wolf legends never seem to take that into account....so it still begs the > question--does the sun counter act the effects, or is it simply that > folklore doesn't take that into account since it's basically all about > 'darkness' and 'evil' (something normally associated with 'evil' things way > back when the legends first started)? And if Rowling (or *any* author for > that matter) were to take the fact that the full moon can rise *before* > sunset (or stay in the sky *after* sunrise), then how would they explain the > descrepency? It's still a full moon--it's still reflecting visible light > Earthwards--so the werewolf would still see it, and would, in theory, still > be 'hit' with it. So why doesn't it make them change then? I can think of a few possible reasons. The one I would personally favour is the idea that the moonlight is 'drowned out' by the 'sunlight'. If the sun is visible, it will always be the dominant lightsource in the sky. Using the lux as a measure of illumination, the light of the full moon is roughly equal to 0.27 lux. The illumination of the sun is equivalent to anywhere from 32,000 to 100,000 lux - from memory, it's around 30,000 lux at sunset or sunrise. What this means is that *if* the sun is in the sky, it's light will always be at least 100,000 times brighter than the light of the full moon (and, yes, I know it doesn't seem the difference is that much - but that comes down to the way we see light and our brains interpret it). Put another way - if the sun and a full moon are both in the sky, between 99.997% and 99.999% of all the light from natural sources will be coming from the sun. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a light source 100,000 times brighter drowns out and renders meaningless the lesser light source. However, at night, it's a totally different kettle of fish. The full moon (at zenith on a clear night) is about 0.27 lux. A starlit sky (absent the moon) is about 0.001 lux. So at night, the full moon is 270 times brighter than all other natural sources combined. Or put another way, 99.6% of all light is coming from that full moon. (Just to avoid a possible question, even if the bright planets are visible in the sky, they produce very little illumination - Venus at its brightest yields about 0.0001 lux - not enough to appreciably effect these numbers). So, if I had to come up with an explanation, I'd start by looking at the dominance of different light sources. During daylight, the light of the sun simply washes out the light of the moon, to an extent it can't have a lycanthropic effect. > Which goes back to my original post--what constitutes a 'full' moon for a > were wolf? If its number of days, then we have an inaccuracy (because Lupin > is not a were that whole time). If it's activated by 'the phase of the full > moon', then it's still inaccurate, because the moon is not always > convieniently full at night, high over head--and it further begs the > question of what happens to weres on the oppostie side of the planet from > the 'full' moon? Do they 'beg out' on that month since they aren;t actaully > expsoed to it? Appearently not. Just for the record - while technically speaking full moon is an instant, most astronomers generally consider it to be about 3 days - one night either side of the actual night of totality - when they need to use a looser definition. But this is constantly debated. References I've seen to various withcraft, and astrological traditions, tend to focus on either a three day or six day period. But I'm a long way from being any type of expert on that. Personally I think three days is a reasonable 'guess', but an author can do what they like. > And then, again, the ultimate werewolf question--if it's activated by > *seeing* the full moon--as most legends nowadays tend to ascreibe to (as > does Rowling with her cinematic treatment of Lupin changing when the moon > came out from behind a cloud), then the hole there is that they *should* > change when they see the moon--even if it's up during daylight > hours....which is why I ask....why is that not thought of? Probably because if JKR took into account everything we come up with, she'd be a stark raving maniac by now (-8 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 2 05:25:20 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 05:25:20 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97493 Pippin: >>He doesn't know that Harry's scar hurt, so he can't know the real reason for Harry's actions. What was he supposed to think?<< Alla: > OK, but to me touching his forehead does not even come close to Harry mimicking Snape. :o)< Pippin: Oops, that's not what I meant. I meant that Snape would think Harry was pretending that Snape was so ugly that it gave him a headache just to look at him. Pippin: >> We might imagine Snape walking a tightrope in PS/SS, using his hatred of Harry as a shield against legilimency while desperately trying not to act on it.<< Alla: > Nope, that is not what I meant. I just meant that in general Snape supposed to be in control of his emotions. I DON'T think that he is always in control of his emotions since I read Shrieking Shack scene, actually. I especially don't think that he is in control of his emotions since OoP, since I think that pensieve scene is the perfect example of how his emotions got the best or should I say the worst of him. :o)< Pippin: I think Snape can control his emotions superbly, but not all the time, and especially not where Harry is concerned. He's a teacher, not a saint. > > Pippin previously: > > Now that's interesting. Suppose Snape went to Dumbledore > > immediately after the feast and tried to quit--do you think > > Dumbledore would have let him do it? Alla: > LOL, Pippin! Imagine that scene. :o) Do you seriously think though that Snape did not know that harry is coming to Hogwarts? Then he is not a good candidate for the role of Dumbledore's trusting lutenant.< Of course Snape knew. And I think he had instructions to "try and treat [Harry] like any other student." PoA ch 21. But I think both Snape and Dumbledore realized, perhaps on that very first night, that he wasn't going to be able to do it. So what would Dumbledore do then? Demand Snape's resignation? Well, it's a good thing he didn't, because Harry might never have survived his first Quidditch match if it weren't for Snape. I get the impression that you think Snape could treat Harry better if he just tried harder. But what if Snape, like Neville, is trying as hard as he can already? Pippin From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Sun May 2 05:55:35 2004 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 05:55:35 -0000 Subject: As if Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97494 Usually things go something like this: 1) we come up with a crackpot idea, and 2) we see if we can find clues to support aforementioned crackpot idea. I thought it might be fun to try it the other way round for once. The other way round would go something like this: 1) take one of JKR's known methods of hiding clues, and 2) see what kind of crackpot ideas we can support with aforementioned clues. As some of you are undoubtedly aware JKR likes to use similes starting with 'as if'/'as though' to foreshadow things. While similes normally are used to better describe a scene by comparing it to something familiar, JKR likes to use them to literally describe what is going on. A few examples: "A rustling noise nearby made all three of them jump. Winky the house- elf was fighting her way out of a clump of bushes nearby. She was moving in a most peculiar fashion, apparently with great difficulty; it was *as though* someone invisible were trying to hold her back." ? [GoF] "'Now stay still, everyone, while I give us a bit of light in here,' Moody whispered. The others' hushed voices were giving Harry an odd feeling of foreboding; it was *as though* they had just entered the house of a dying person." ? [OotP] "When the last person ? Zacharias ? had signed, Hermione took the parchment back and slipped it carefully into her bag. There was an odd feeling in the group now. It was *as though* they had just signed some kind of contract." ? [OotP] Winky was of course being held back by an invisible someone, Harry did enter the house of a dying person, and Hermione had made them sign a kind of contract. Let's assume for a moment that JKR has been using this method to hide other clues. Following below is a list of 11 other similes preceded by 'as if'/'as though' which may hold the key to important future developments: 1) Dumbledore's nose has been broken at least twice: "His blue eyes were light, bright, and sparkling behind half-moon spectacles and his nose was very long and crooked, *as though* it had been broken at least twice." ? [PS/SS] Seems very possible. Undoubtedly the supporters of the Dumbledore = Ron theory are already waiting for Ron to break his nose for the first time. They could be waiting for the wrong person to break his nose though. It could be that Dumbledore = Neville. Sure he doesn't really have the lanky build, but then he might still get a growth spurt. Sure he doesn't really seem to have Dumbledore's incredible magic powers, but then that may speak in his favour. If Neville turns out to be the most powerful wizard the wizarding world has ever seen, he could become one of the greatest examples of the importance of perseverance in modern English literature. And he does seem to be getting better at magic. JKR once said in a radio interview that someone out of Harry's year would go on to become a teacher, someone we would not expect it from. She said it wasn't Ron. 2) Voldemort can hear you when you say his name: "'Stop saying the name!' said Ron in a terrified whisper, *as if* he thought Voldemort could hear them." ? [PS/SS] Seems doubtful. This may explain why the D.E.'s are so terrified of saying Voldemort's name, it may also explain some of the holes in the D.E. circle. Being able to listen in whenever his name is said would give Voldemort an important strategic advantage. It makes you wonder about Dumbledore's constant insistence on saying Voldemort's name. Presumably, after Dumbledore's latest talk with Harry, Voldmort now knows the entire content of the prophecy. Or maybe that is just what Dumbledore wants Voldemort to think. 3) Lupin can read minds: "'It has nothing to do with weakness,' said Professor Lupin sharply, *as though* he had read Harry's mind. 'The Dementors affect you worse than the others because there are horrors in your past that the others don't have.'" ? [PoA] "'A surprising number of people volunteered to come and get you,' said Lupin, *as though* he had read Harry's mind; the corners of his mouth twitched slightly. 'Yeah, well, the more the better,' said Moody darkly. 'We're your guard, Potter.'" ? [OotP] Seems likely. After Dumbledore, Snape, and Voldemort, it seems Lupin has also been poking around in Harry's head. Harry may want to take his Occlumency lessons a little more seriously. 4) Pettigrew was hypnotised during the confrontation in the Shrieking Shack: "'But then I saw Peter in that picture... I realised he was at Hogwarts with Harry... perfectly positioned to act, if one hint reached his ears that the Dark Side was gathering strength again...' Pettigrew was shaking his head, mouthing noiselessly, but staring all the while at Black *as though* hypnotised." ? [PoA] Seems somewhat unlikely. However if Peter really was hypnotised in the Shrieking Shack it could have far reaching implications. It could mean that Peter was innocent, he may have been framed to cover up for whoever it was that really betrayed Harry's parents. Or it could mean that Peter was not acting alone, he may have been prevented from revealing who it was that was in on the betrayal of Harry's parents. There are those who believe the whole Shrieking Shack scene was staged for Harry's benefit, but I don't think even they suspected it went this far. 5) Krum does not need a broomstick to fly: "Harry had never seen anyone fly like that; Krum hardly looked *as though* he was using a broomstick at all; he moved so easily through the air that he looked unsupported and weightless." ? [GoF] Seems not entirely unlikely. Krum could be some kind of magical creature or half-breed. An extremely tall Leprechaun perhaps, or an half-Hag. His uncoordinated movement on the ground does suggest he is more at home in the air. Or alternatively Krum could be using illegal flight enhancing spells and potions. A few shots of Billywig stings before the big game perhaps. With rumours about the Tutshill Tornados going around it seems likely that some kind of Quidditch scandal will be uncovered in the coming books. If a scandal is uncovered, Krum may well get caught up in it. 6) Harry's sleeping brain had been working on a plan to write Sirius: "Early next morning, Harry woke with a plan fully formed in his mind, *as though* his sleeping brain had been working on it all night. He got up, dressed in the pale dawn light, left the dormitory without waking Ron, and went back down to the deserted common room. Here he took a piece of parchment from the table upon which his Divination homework still lay and wrote the following letter: Dear Sirius, I reckon I just imagined my scar hurting, I was half asleep when I wrote to you last time. There's no point coming back, everything's fine here. Don't worry about me, my head feels completely normal. Harry" ? [GoF] Seems likely. Those of you familiar with my pet theory KITTENS & RAINBOWS can probably guess where I'm going with this. A theory which by the way also explains 6b) the name Riddle seemed to mean something to Harry *as though* Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half forgotten. See messages: #78982, #79691, and #83445, or perhaps more conveniently see the website: http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html It seems to me that the part of Voldemort inside Harry made him write that letter. During the night it could have carefully planted the idea in Harry's head that he should write to Sirius telling him to stay away. Harry does really care about Sirius' safety; the part of Voldemort inside Harry just used that concern to try to keep Sirius from coming to Hogwarts. 7) Umbridge can read minds: "Harry felt the blood surge to his head and heard a thumping noise in his ears. So he told 'evil, nasty, attention-seeking stones', did he? She was watching him with her head slightly to one side, still smiling widely, *as though* she knew exactly what he was thinking and was waiting to see whether he would start shouting again. With a massive effort, Harry looked away from her, dropped his schoolbag beside the straight-backed chair and sat down." ? [OotP] Seems possible. If Harry already hadn't enough reason to seriously study Occlumency with Dumbledore, Snape, Voldemort and Lupin poking around in his brain, Umbridge being a Legilimens certainly would be reason enough all on its own. 8) The Barman of the Hog's Head had been interrupted in something very important: "The barman glared at him for a moment, then, throwing down his rag irritably *as though* he had been interrupted in something very important, he started passing up dusty Butterbeers from under the bar." ? [OotP] Doesn't seem very likely. If the barman was Albus Dumbledore I could see how he had been working on something important before being called away to serve drinks. Is Albus perhaps holding down two jobs? I don't know how much Hogwarts pays its teaching staff, but given the difficulties in finding new teachers it can't be very much. If the barman was Aberforth Dumbledore the important thing probably had something to do with a goat. 9) Dumbledore knew Harry would see something like Arthur Weasley being attacked from inside the snake: "'You misunderstand me,' said Dumbledore, still in the same calm tone. 'I mean... can you remember ? er ? where you were positioned as you watched this attack happen? Were you perhaps standing beside the victim, or else looking down on the scene from above?' This was such a curious question that Harry gaped at Dumbledore; it was almost *as though* he knew..." ? [OotP] "'So, Potter says he saw it all happen?' 'Yes,' said Mrs Weasley. She sounded rather uneasy. 'You know, Dumbledore seems almost to have been waiting for Harry to see something like this.'" ? [OotP] Seems unlikely but in Dumbledore's case perhaps quite possible. Dumbledore certainly seems to know a lot more than he lets on to Harry. No doubt he knows exactly in what way Harry and Voldemort are linked. From this he could have deduced Harry *might* see something like this. But how could he have been so certain that Harry *would* see something like this? Have two people been linked like this once before (the scar Fudge (never) heard of)? Has Dumbledore already been trough all this once before? Or has Dumbledore arranged the whole thing from the start? I'm a big supporter of MAGIC DISHWASHER, Dumbledore seems to have an incredibly vast knowledge of all that goes on in the world. He could be using that knowledge to arrange just the right circumstances for the defeat of Voldemort. A lot like how Gandalf was able to arrange just the right circumstances for the defeat of Sauron. The fact that we recently decided Dumbledore is not omniscient doesn't change much. Gandalf wasn't omniscient, if he was why did he lead them over the mountain pass of Caradhras? 10) Ginny can read minds: "Harry looked over at Ron, who was hunched in a corner, staring at his knees, a bottle of Butterbeer clutched in his hand. 'Angelina still won't let him resign,' Ginny said, *as though* reading Harry's mind." ? [OotP] Seems possible. Perhaps Harry should just give up and start carrying his thoughts around in a Pensieve. 11) Luna is on a not always too interesting day trip: "The classroom door opened. Harry, Ron and Hermione whipped around. Ginny walked in, looking curious, closely followed by Luna, who as usual looked *as though* she had drifted in accidentally." ? [OotP] "...and Hermione was attempting, in vain, to throw Millicent Bulstrode off her. Luna, however, stood limply by the side of her captor, gazing vaguely out of the window *as though* rather bored by the proceedings." ? [OotP] "...Neville jumped down, shaking; and Luna dismounted smoothly. 'Where do we go from here, then?' she asked Harry in a politely interested voice, *as though* this was all a rather interesting day- trip." ? [OotP] Seems a bit doubtful. Luna could be a time traveller visiting from the future, she could be extremely old, she could be some kind of magical being, or she could be a visitor from another planet. The fact that she does not need to blink as much as normal humans and has slightly protruding eyes seems to suggest the last possibility. Personally I like to believe Luna is just a very odd little girl. I'll admit that most of these similes will probably turn out to be nothing more than a bit of nice descriptive language. There is always the possibility that one or two will turn out to be literally true. If that happens I reserve the right to say I told you so. -Maus Come see my KITTENS & RAINBOWS theory website: http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 2 06:31:30 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 06:31:30 -0000 Subject: Vernon and his Rifle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97495 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Caius Marcius wrote: > A question: > > > > In Chap. 3 of SS/PS, in his mad flight from Little Whinging, Vernon > > disappears briefly and returns "carrying a long, thin package and > > didn't answer Aunt Petunia when she asked what he'd bought." > Could Vernon have purchased a rifle so quickly in > > late 1990s Britain? > > > Carol: > I don't know anything about gun laws in Britain or anywhere else, but > I'm pretty sure that SS/PS takes place in 1991, so gun laws could have > changed between that time and 1997, the copyright date of the book. Geoff: This was discussed in several follow-ups to Caius' original post at message 97003. I commneted on the UK situation and also suggested an air rifle as a possibility. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun May 2 07:08:38 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 07:08:38 -0000 Subject: Magical Metabolism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97496 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "caesian" wrote: > By contrast, plump short characters include Dolores Umbridge, Cornelius > Fudge, Neville Longbottom, Molly Weasley, Madam Rosmerta and Prof essor Sprout. > While the later ladies in that group are relatively unknown quantities in terms > of magical ability, Umbridge, Fudge and Neville were all singled out as > relatively weakly magical. Not really sticking to your thread, but please be careful with your characterisations of Madam Rosmerta. She's the only male fantasy figure in the canon. Attractive, a little bit flirty, owns a pub. Seems like magic to me. Now if she played her cards right, I might see my way clear to..... Kneasy From msmerymac at yahoo.com Sun May 2 05:33:14 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 05:33:14 -0000 Subject: the Twins' classes (was Re: OWLS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97497 Ginger wrote: > > > Any other quote to nail them down in other classes? Or > > could we be on to a flint if we find more than 3? > > > > Now Heather: > > What if there are two 'levels' of classes in years 6 and 7 - NEWT > level and ordinary level? Perhaps the NEWT level classes are like > an honors level class which takes only the best of the year. That > would leave all of the other returning students in the ordinary > level classes. This was quite common in Canadian High Schools when > I was a student (albeit a long time ago... ). I find it hard > to imagine that F&G would only be able to attend three classes in > their 6th and 7th years after only receiving three OWLS... Luckie: I always assumed that "getting three owls" meant they got three "outstandings." That said, McGonagall takes students in her NEWT level class who have acheived and O or E. Snape only takes students who get Os. The twins could have gotten 3 Os, but gotten Es or As in other classes. However, if "getting an owl" simply means getting a grade good enough to get into a NEWT level class - such as an O in potions or an E in transfiguration - Heather's theory could apply. ~Luckie From msmerymac at yahoo.com Sun May 2 07:36:55 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 07:36:55 -0000 Subject: Poor Lucius was: Bellatrix's 'French' accent on the Audio tape/cd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97498 Catherine McK: No wonder Lucius sometimes sounds a bit weary in their company. Can > > you imagine them all at the dinner table? > > > Mandy here: > Catherine you have actually made me feel sorry for Lucius Malfoy! > Having the Black Family of Lunatics as your in-laws, would drive > anyone insane. Although I suspect the Lucius is much of an inbred > lunatic as his wife and her family are. > Luckie: People find it odd that while Bellatrix and Sirius inherited the famous Black family good looks, Narcissa is a pale blonde. I always thought it was more of a tounge-in-cheek joke that Narcissa and Lucius both look alike - attractive with pale eyes and blond hair. Kind of a visual reminder of the inbreeding amongst the purebloods. ~Luckie From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun May 2 08:27:04 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 08:27:04 -0000 Subject: As if In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97499 Maus wrote: 11) Luna is on a not always too interesting day trip: "The classroom door opened. Harry, Ron and Hermione whipped around. Ginny walked in, looking curious, closely followed by Luna, who as usual looked *as though* she had drifted in accidentally." ? [OotP] "...and Hermione was attempting, in vain, to throw Millicent Bulstrode off her. Luna, however, stood limply by the side of her captor, gazing vaguely out of the window *as though* rather bored by the proceedings." ? [OotP] "...Neville jumped down, shaking; and Luna dismounted smoothly. 'Where do we go from here, then?' she asked Harry in a politely interested voice, *as though* this was all a rather interesting day- trip." ? [OotP] Seems a bit doubtful. Luna could be a time traveller visiting from the future, she could be extremely old, she could be some kind of magical being, or she could be a visitor from another planet. The fact that she does not need to blink as much as normal humans and has slightly protruding eyes seems to suggest the last possibility. Personally I like to believe Luna is just a very odd little girl. vmonte responds: What an interesting post! Here are my impressions of Luna (much of this is from an old post of mine). In OOTP the kids are first introduced to Luna. She is sitting on the train reading her father's newspaper. She is reading an article entitled: Secrets of the Ancient Runes Revealed. Perhaps this is a subject Luna excels at. Also, I think Luna may be able to see the future. I don't think she has completely mastered it, but the idea makes sense if you think about some of her behavior in OOTP. Examples: She raises the newspaper she is reading on the train moments before Neville's plant explodes over everyone. Everyone in the compartment is drenched in slime except for her. Also, there are many times throughout the book when things are happening and Luna appears to be bored. If she already knows what is going to happen--of course she is going to be bored. At the end of OOTP she has no fear during the fight. If she knew what was going to happen she knew that she would be fine, or knew how to avoid getting seriously hurt. She hasn't told anyone because she has knowledge that it would be better not to, hasn't needed to, knows the future is not fixed, doesn't want Voldemort to find out, and most importantly doesn't want to give the last two books away for JKR Rowling. Her reactions to Ron are over the top--more like hero worship--not like she has a love crush kind of thing. (Her responses to Ron are more like people have to Super Stars,famous people. She may know that Ron will be the hero in book 7. (Look at my earlier comments about Ron being the leader of the army against Voldemort.) Her father's newspaper, even though it is a tabloid, has a lot of truth in it. Harry reads some of the articles on the train ride. Mixed in with the sensational is some truth. Example: S. Black is innocent. Maybe Luna is supplying her dad with information but her dad is camouflaging it so that it cannot be traced to his daughter. Maus, you may be right about Luna being some kind of magical being. Her large eyes and interesting taste in earings (the radishes) may mean that she is/was a house elf. Your comment that she may be extremely old is also interesting. Is she a transfigured adult? Or another metamorph? As far as her being a time traveler from the future -- that never crossed my mind? That would be very interesting... Did her mom work at the MoM? Wasn't she also good at charms, like Lily? From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun May 2 11:23:27 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 07:23:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists Message-ID: <118.3243d366.2dc6342f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97500 In a message dated 5/1/2004 10:47:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: And September 1, 1993, the day of Hogwarts Express trip, was the exact date for the full moon that month, so if JKR were following the calendar, he should have been in full werewolf mode rather than recovering from a recent transformation, which is how I read his tiredness, pallor, and hoarseness (from howling) in that scene. =========================================== Sherrie here: If it's the same site I used for this same research a few months ago (for a discussion on the AOL boards), it should also list the time of precise "fullness". IIRC, on 1 Sept 1993 that was somewhere around 2:00 AM - so by 11:00 AM, Lupin would indeed have been in "recovery mode". As far as I do recall the lycanthropy lore I once knew (thank you, DARK SHADOWS), a werewolf only transforms on the night the moon is actually at fullness - just one night a month. They may, however, experience uncomfortable symptoms for some days prior, particularly serious irritability, and will be weak for a couple of days afterward - more, if they haven't fed in werewolf form. (I checked this in folklore, since in Witchcraft the Full Moon is said to last THREE days.) FWIW, my two Knuts. As always, YMMV. Sherrie (beat from opening weekend of THE SISTERS ROSENSWEIG) "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun May 2 11:39:40 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 07:39:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97501 In a message dated 5/2/2004 12:22:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: Could you please, please provide a quote? I am under very stron assumption that there were no assignments yet before they started Hogwarts. Why would it be? I would say that at least Muggle-born children are not expected to know anything about magic yet. Hermione is an exception, of course. :o) I would think that teachers would want to provide some guidance before assigning ANY reading to the first years. ========================== Sherrie here: The relevant portion here is, I believe, this one (PS ch. 8, "The Potions Master", UK paper ed., p. 102 bottom): "Hermione stretched her hand as high into the air as it would go without her leaving her seat, but Harry didn't have the faintest idea what a bezoar was. He tried not to look at Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, who were shaking with laughter. " 'I don't know, sir.' " 'Though you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter?' " IMHO, Snape DOES expect the students to have read their textbooks prior to the beginning of the term - after all, they get their booklists at least a month before school begins. Why send them THAT early to Diagon Alley, if NOT so the little prats can get a jump start on their schoolwork - especially the Muggleborns? I've not read PS/SS for a while, so I can't recall whether any other teachers comment on pre-term preparation - but obviously Snape DOES expect it. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 2 12:08:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 12:08:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Army (DA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97502 > > Mo: But, with that said, since > it is increasingly dangerous times, I bet that a superb DADA teacher > will be installed next year and DADA is going to change into a > serious training/defence program now that everyone in the WW will > know that LV is back. > x Potioncat: All the more reason not to give DADA to Snape, unless his cover has been completely blown by that time. That and the unfortunate incident of the kappas. :-) Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 2 12:26:07 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 12:26:07 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97503 > > Pippin: > > Now that's interesting. Suppose Snape went to Dumbledore > > immediately after the feast and tried to quit--do you think > > Dumbledore would have let him do it? > > Alla: > LOL, Pippin! Imagine that scene. :o) Do you seriously think though > that Snape did not know that harry is coming to Hogwarts? Then he is > not a good candidate for the role of Dumbledore's trusting lutenant. > Potioncat: It would go like this, "Headmaster, not only is Harry Potter here, but I have Crabbe, Goyle, Malfoy and Nott in my house! Either that hat goes or I do!" Potioncat From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 2 12:27:15 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 12:27:15 -0000 Subject: Help with Lupin's boggart Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97504 Carol wrote: Why did Lupin "positively flee" unless he was afraid of his own future? Sorry, but this seems to me an example of taking too seriously what is obviously meant as a light-hearted joke at Trelawney's expense. The actual quote is "He positively flad when I offered to crystal gaze for him". Come on, Carol, wouldn't you positively flee if Trelawney tried to corner you and crystal gaze for you! Lupin probably muttered something about an urgent appointment elsewhere and hurried off before she could pin him down. He's a gentleman (and a gentle man) and is letting her down lightly. I hate to think what Snape would have said if she tried it on him. Sylvia From CoyotesChild at charter.net Sun May 2 12:37:18 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 07:37:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists In-Reply-To: <000f01c42ffd$4d7ebf40$3a5aaacf@texas.net> Message-ID: <000001c43042$3a71fc60$6501a8c0@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 97505 >>Shaun: >>I don't >> really agree but I don't want to annoy people unnecessarily. > >*laughs* So annoying people necessarily is fine? > >~Amanda, speaking for herself > Iggy here: Oh indeed it is. Sometimes I find it to be necessary to annoy people on occasion to get their blood heated up and lubricate their brains. Sometimes getting someone annoyed with you is one of the best motivators to get them to do something you want to... whether they realize they're doing it or not. *grin* As for the full moon question, it's usually considered to last 3 nights... with the moon at it's fullest in the middle night. This is often referred to as the "Three Nights of the Blood Moon" because the moon frequently has a very rich red tint at moonrise until an hour or two into the night. Part of the origin of this belief that the full moon triggers a werewolf's transformation is due to the color... and another big part is because of the lunacy that effects most people to some degree or another during the full moon. (My wife can even tell how my moods will run on occasion by noticing the phases of the moon. I tend to be more "primal" around the full moon.) When you get to it, there is actually a psychosis known as Lycanthropy, where the sufferer believes that they are slowly turning into a wolf. Many times, their behavior will become more pronounced during the full moon as well. I hope this helps... Iggy McSnurd From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun May 2 12:38:32 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 07:38:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists References: <4095122E.15598.FC900A@localhost> Message-ID: <001601c43042$615d5d60$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97506 I can think of a few possible reasons. The one I would personally favour is the idea that the moonlight is 'drowned out' by the 'sunlight'. If the sun is visible, it will always be the dominant lightsource in the sky. <> What this means is that *if* the sun is in the sky, it's light will always be at least 100,000 times brighter than the light of the full moon <<*Lots of snipping on interesting scientific stats--wow, let me guess, you're an astronomer or at least require a knowledge of it in your line of work...;)**>> So, if I had to come up with an explanation, I'd start by looking at the dominance of different light sources. During daylight, the light of the sun simply washes out the light of the moon, to an extent it can't have a lycanthropic effect. {Silverthorne} That makes perfectly good sense--from a scientific point of view. The lore though is based on superstition, not scientific facts, and started way back when the common element did not have such information--so it still boggles the mind a little when you look at it from the average person's POV (The folks back then would have no real way of knowing that the daylight moon gives off so little light in comparison to the sun--after all, they can see it, can't they? Likewise with stars and planets at night--I suspect their idea of how much light was being given off was related more to the assumed 'size' of the object as opposed to a measure of how much light from it actaully reached the Earth...). I suppose since I'm looking at it from their POV (and a supernatural one as well), it becomes a sticking point for me (and I also like to play with ideas like this anyway--keeps my mind from totally freezing in my old age...). Unlike us, they didn't have all this nifty scientific fact--all they had were their eyes, their mind, and whatever the local religion was telling them that week about the dark and nasty things out there (most of which, including werewolves, ran about at night, because night is when bad things ran about...nothing scientific there--just good old human fear of the dark, so to speak...^^;) {Shaun} Just for the record - while technically speaking full moon is an instant, most astronomers generally consider it to be about 3 days - one night either side of the actual night of totality - when they need to use a looser definition. But this is constantly debated. {Silverthorne} Yep--I did point the three day fact out in my first post...I'm not a complete idiot--just half of one...*winks good naturedly and cackles* {Shaun} References I've seen to various withcraft, and astrological traditions, tend to focus on either a three day or six day period. But I'm a long way from being any type of expert on that. Personally I think three days is a reasonable 'guess', but an author can do what they like. {Silverthorne} *nods* Personal opinion is closer to the one day theory. The day before and after I would ascribe more to the were version of PMS (Got that bloated, icky, nasty feeling that makes you all pissy and mean...:P...). Also, taking the scientific information into account, we can sort of fudge the 'he didn't change until the moon popped out from behind the clouds'--because if we accept that the strength of the moonlight directly affects the transformation, then the clouds would have blocked the light right up until then, thus sparing Remus the worst of it. Although, then we're looking at another question--why don't werewolves just go hide in some place where the moonlight cannot reach them for that night? If it takes exposure to actual moonlight to trigger the change, then surely the smart ones at least (and I include Remus in this statement), can find an appropiate hidey hole. Then again, an appropriate hidey hole in Hogwarts would likely be...the dungeons.... Wouldn't Snape just be ever so pleased??? *eg* {Shaun} Probably because if JKR took into account everything we come up with, she'd be a stark raving maniac by now (-8 {Silverthorne} Most likely. *g* then again, maybe that explains my own state of mind---I tend to make at least the attempt to look at all possibilites when coming up with ideas for RPG's that I run, including things like this...hmmmmm Thanks for the scientific take, Shaun! Got to learn something ^^ From LWalshETAL at aol.com Sun May 2 13:00:22 2004 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 09:00:22 EDT Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... Message-ID: <138.2e629fcd.2dc64ae6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97507 In a message dated 04/05/01 14:51:21, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 14:32:43 -0000 > From: "vmonte" > Subject: Re: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... > > I realize that Harry is a goof-off in school ... > I disagree with this statement, which I have read numerous times before. Perhaps Harry himself feels that he could and should do better than he does in some classes, but from the outside, it appears that Harry (and Ron) both actually work rather hard. They nearly always get their homework done (which is amazing in itself in the schools in which I have been lately - 6th - 12th grade US), they are very frequently the last ones left working in Gryffindor's common room, and they do an extensive amount of outside work - learning spells for the Triwizard Tournament, doing research on hippogriffs for Hagrid, looking up Nicholas Flamel. Harry also learns the patronus charm as an extra curricular activity and spends hours with Hermione mastering Accio. True, we see Harry and Ron both goofing off in Divination and History of Magic. But with the latter, they make up for it by copying all of Hermione's notes (a monumental task) and studying them rather hard. With Divination, they are actually prepared to work at it, until it becomes clear that Trelawney really doesn't know how to teach it, because, while she has a bit of the power, she doesn't know that she does and she mistakenly thinks that her spooky voice and other mannerisms will make up for her lack of understanding. We see examples of where both Ron and Harry goof off, but I think these are notable because they ARE exceptions to their normal hard work. I don't fault Harry, or anyone for that matter, for not being able to make potions just right. The recipes for them look like they are amazingly complicated. And Harry definitely is NOT the only one who doesn't get them just right. Hermione is actually the only one we see who consistently does better. Potions class is much like what I remember of chemistry. It is much harder to actually do it right than you might imagine from just looking at the directions. If you think Harry is a goof off, you should see most of the kids I taught last year. Laura Walsh LWalshETAL at aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mommystery at hotmail.com Sun May 2 13:07:17 2004 From: mommystery at hotmail.com (mommystery2003) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 13:07:17 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97508 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > Pippin: > > > Now that's interesting. Suppose Snape went to Dumbledore > > > immediately after the feast and tried to quit--do you think > > > Dumbledore would have let him do it? The one thing we have to remember and that both Snape and Harry forget is you have to give respect to get it. Harry can't stand Snape from the beginning. Even after finding out that Snape was protecting him, he did nothing - no thanks, no "I'm sorry", nothing. He still goes on to think the worst in Snape. Snape is Snape and nothing will change that! He hates Harry and loves to see him in trouble. He gives him occulmency lessons under protests (it seems) but is unwilling to answer Harry's questions. Ces From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 2 14:15:31 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 14:15:31 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's suspicions of Moody, was The Problem with Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97510 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > As I've said before, I do think that bits and pieces of evidence--all of it presumably reported to him by others, including Snape and the portraits--created suspicions in DD's mind long before the Tri-Wizard Tournament. Incidents like turning Draco into a ferret and Imperioing the students would have come to his attention in some way, and I think he would have wondered at that point what was wrong with Moody (as opposed to suspecting that someone was impersonating him). . Rather than *suddenly* figuring out exactly what happened (which struck me as unrealistic the first time I read the book), he must have been thinking about it all along, and at that point the last piece of the puzzle slipped into place--he knew who "Moody" was--whichis why he had no hesitation about asking Snape to fetch Winky.<< Alternatively, Dumbledore knew that "Bartemius Crouch" was impersonating *somebody*. He was in correspondence with Sirius, who could tell him that Harry had spotted Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office the night it was burgled. Snape could tell Dumbledore that polyjuice ingredients had been stolen. So Dumbledore's looking for an impostor, but doesn't know who it is until Moody takes Harry from his side. I think that Impostor!Moody's only real slip was the ferret-bounce, and that he was extremely careful to do as Dumbledore wished after that, even if it meant risking the Ministry's attention by demonstrating the Unforgivables, or teaching Harry how to resist Imperius. Though that was technically illegal, I don't think JKR means us to see it as immoral. I think Dumbledore (and JKR) regard both laws and rules as machines--they help us choose between good and evil, but they aren't infallible guides and sometimes they are no substitute for human discernment. Pippin From ms-tamany at rcn.com Sun May 2 14:33:55 2004 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 10:33:55 -0400 Subject: Dates and calendars in Potterverse Message-ID: <4094CE93.1364.3567CE47@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 97511 With all these people trying to discern exactly when things happened by what the night sky looked like, and whether or not Lupin's full moon was on schedule for 1995, and just what date was the Forbidden Forest detention (Mars is bright tonight), and all that, I have just one question for you. I hope it doesn't sound offensive -- I'm really not trying to insult anyone, I'm just really, truly, honestly, and thoroughly curious! How do you expect to reconcile literary astronomical indicators to real world dates when, for five years now, September first has been a Sunday? Doesn't that just scream out that JKR is not using a real world calendar? *** Tammy ms-tamany at rcn.com From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun May 2 14:38:07 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 14:38:07 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: <138.2e629fcd.2dc64ae6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97512 Laura Walsh wrote: True, we see Harry and Ron both goofing off in Divination and History of Magic. But with the latter, they make up for it by copying all of Hermione's notes (a monumental task) and studying them rather hard. With Divination, they are actually prepared to work at it, until it becomes clear that Trelawney really doesn't know how to teach it, because, while she has a bit of the power, she doesn't know that she does and she mistakenly thinks that her spooky voice and other mannerisms will make up for her lack of understanding. We see examples of where both Ron and Harry goof off, but I think these are notable because they ARE exceptions to their normal hard work. vmonte responds: I disagree with you. Harry and Ron often rely on Hermione to get them through their classes. I think that Harry and Ron, like many kids, do well in the classes they enjoy, and end up playing catch up with the rest of their classes. They are great procrastinators. If you don't believe me, read Hermione's reactions to their work habits. I think that they are both, at present, average students. I'm not talking about Harry's incredible and natural DADA talents; I'm talking about regular school work. I do not blame Harry (or any child) who cannot do well in Snape's class. Snape may know his stuff, but he enjoys setting the children up for failure. You are right that when Harry wants to learn something he has no problem mastering incredibly difficult spells. Harry has a lot on his plate! I don't really think that it's bad that he is not as studious as Hermione, he does after all have to constantly save the wizarding world from Voldemort! That said, I think that he will have to become more focused, and studious in the next book. He has had some near misses in his confrontations with Voldemort. Instinct is only going to get him so far, he is going to have to master himself. His life may depend on it. vmonte From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun May 2 14:53:04 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 09:53:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dates and calendars in Potterverse References: <4094CE93.1364.3567CE47@localhost> Message-ID: <002e01c43055$2c778400$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97513 {Tammy} With all these people trying to discern exactly when things happened by what the night sky looked like, and whether or not Lupin's full moon was on schedule for 1995, and just what date was the Forbidden Forest detention (Mars is bright tonight), and all that, I have just one question for you. I hope it doesn't sound offensive -- I'm really not trying to insult anyone, I'm just really, truly, honestly, and thoroughly curious! How do you expect to reconcile literary astronomical indicators to real world dates when, for five years now, September first has been a Sunday? Doesn't that just scream out that JKR is not using a real world calendar? {Silverthorne} Hey, Tammy! Honestly, I *don't* expect writers to use a 'real time' calandar for their works (although I am prone to at least giving it a try if only to have at least *Some* authenticity to what I'm writing)--if every author researched every little piece of information pertinent to making their story fit into the "real world", they'd never get the book itself written. I think our discussions (IMH, and personal, O), are more just a bunch of fans kicking around interesting ideas--nothing wrong with that--at least not until you *expect* the author herself to somehow come across all this *wisdom* herself and change all of her facts to match, or take it so seriously that it becomes more of a shouting match to prove who's 'right' and who's 'wrong'. When something like moon phases and their effects, or folkloric information on creatures comes up, its more of a fun thing for me to examine, compare, and see if I can figure out where the author got her ideas from--but it doesn't mean that I expect the author to 'conform' to what *I* think should have happened. Like my question about the full moon being up during the day. Obviously, that was not a factor Rowling thought about (and most authors don't think about when writing on werewolves). So, in regards to HP, it's sort of a moot point...even though *I* find it an interesting possibility--it's not likely to happen in HP, nor do I expect it to. But, since we're discussing what sources she *may* have used to come up with in her writing...it was something interesting to throw in as a side thought, and see what could be commented on. You see? Just a bit of fun on the side--a little exercise for the old noggin. As far as Rowling's works go--I'm quite content to let them unfold as they will---I don't necassarily think that, say Sev and Harry *should* reconcile (although it would be nice to see)...or that Harry has to get rid of Voldemort in any particular way (I have my preferences based on personal beliefs, but I'm not, after all, Rowling)....or that any character should or should not come back. They either will or they won't. The fun for me is in analysis in possibilities...and then seeing which possibility Rowling actually lands on once she gets there... After all, it is her work...she'll do with it what she wants after all is said and done, with no imput from us here...Although it *is* fun to theorize!....;) Silverthorne. From LWalshETAL at aol.com Sun May 2 15:00:33 2004 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 11:00:33 EDT Subject: Bellatrix's 'French' accent on the Audio tape/cd Message-ID: <116.32094462.2dc66711@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97514 In a message dated 04/05/01 22:15:57, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > So I'm > intrigued by Jim's choice of accent for Bella, and wonder if he had > any info from JKR's team. > I know not many people on this list have listened to HP in German, but one of the things that is a major irritant to me about Rufus Beck's interpretations of the various characters is his Rita Skeeter and, to a lesser extent, his Phineus Nigellus. In general, I like Rufus Beck a lot. I think he gets the emotions very well (as does Stephen Fry). But Rita Skeeter's broad American accent, with interjected words in English ('ya know'), drives me crazy. There is NO indication that I can see in either the British or American editions of the book that would indicate that Rita Skeeter is an American. The accent he gives to Phineus Nigellus is less offensive, but is still annoying. Rufus Beck's Phineus has a speech impediment, pronouncing Dumbletore more like "Tumpletore". Finally, though there is somewhat of an indication for it, Rufus Beck's Neville has a stutter. There are a few other pronunciations that bother me as well, but these are inconsistent between Fry, Dale, and Beck: Voldemort with the "t" pronounced and Voldemor(t) - more like the French. Anima(long a)gus vs. Anima(ah)gus - more Latin. Fla'mel vs. Fla-mel'. Crabby vs. Crab. I love listening to these three read the stories on CDs. Each has their own style. Dale has good voices for his characters, Fry gets emotions down better, Beck is a mixture of mostly good voices and mostly good emotions. Laura Walsh LWalshETAL at aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 2 15:04:11 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 2 May 2004 15:04:11 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1083510251.40.43630.m25@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97515 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, May 2, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun May 2 15:55:13 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 15:55:13 -0000 Subject: portrait in GH -Nature of Movement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97516 bboy_mn: just having a portrait in your house especially in your bedroom would, in my book, be an awkward invasion of privacy. Even more so for teenage boys who are often compelled to releave certain hormonal urges. (yes, an unpleasant subject, but a harsh reality of teen life.) My point is that even if portraits are very restricted in movement, they are still a substantial invasion of privacy. Neri adds: It's not only the portraits, it's even some mirrors ("tuck your shirt in, scruffy!"). I hate to think what this mirror would have to say when the teenager will use it to check how much certain areas of his/her body have matured... bboy_mn: Now Dumbledore adds a new concept, portrait characters who have portraits in other locations can move between those portraits. Based on the wizard who ran to find the injured Mr Weasley, once at the new location, they are again able to move from portrait to portrait. This second character's movement ability (location to location) seems a reasonable extension of the first ability to move (local portrait to local portrait). I see no reason to restrict it to Headmaster/headmistresses. Portraits of this nature are not going to be very common. Hand painted portraits are usually only found in rich people's house and public buildings (government offices and museums). My point here is that hand painted magical portraits are probably not a problem for the average wizard, because they can't afford them. Neri: Many portraits are hung in public places, such as St. Mungo's and the MoM. I can't believe Fudge, for example, would have tolerated this had he known that they report to DD. No matter how rare are hand- painted portraits, if any wizard who has more than one portrait can travel between his portraits the secret would be out very quickly, and this ability would have been common knowledge. There is also that wink that Dilys gives Harry when he enters St. Moungo's. My strong impression is that this is a secret between DD and the past headmasters of Hogwarts, known to very few beside them, but I can't find definitive canon to either prove or disprove it. If we go back to the idea that started this discussion: a portrait in GH reporting to DD what happened in that fateful night, well, if I was Voldy the first thing I would have done when entering the Potters' house is blasting any portrait out of the wall. Unless it is not common knowledge that they can run and bring DD. Neri From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun May 2 16:07:38 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 16:07:38 -0000 Subject: Full moon question for the folklorists In-Reply-To: <4094F624.32113.8F04BB@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97517 Shaun Hately Just for astronomical reference - a full moon is pretty much never up during the day. A full moon will rise at sunset and set at sunrise (or at least very close to those times - off the equator, there is a little bit of leeway to work with, but not much). So the question doesn't arise in folklore - because it doesn't happen. Bookworm: According to the Farmer's Almanac, there are at least 7 daytime full moons on 2003 and 2004. By my figuring, about 30% of the time the moon is full during the daytime. And from my observations, the full moon rises during the late morning and sets a little after midnight. (Just my observations, and I'm late for work, so I can't check it now.) July 13, 2003 - 2:21 pm September 10, 2003 - 11:36 am December 8, 2003 - 3:36 pm January 7, 2004 - 10:40 am May 4, 2004 - 3:33 pm July 31, 2004 - 1:05 pm December 26, 2004 - 10:06 am http://www.farmersalmanac.com/astronomy/fullmoons.html Ravenclaw Bookworm From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Sun May 2 16:11:30 2004 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Juleczka) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 18:11:30 +0200 Subject: Help with Lupin's boggart In-Reply-To: <1083284929.10294.56328.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97518 You know, while reading the posts about Lupin's boggart I thought it can't be nothing else but moon. But know I'm almost sure that it can't be moon. Why? (apart from the fact that I can't understand why he should be afraid of the moon... after so long it should be a normal thing in his life...) I was surprised that no one has came up with it yet (or maybe someone has?) The orb which we see in a scene in PoA can't be moon because it doesn't affect Lupin in a way real moon affects him. According to Harry's boggart - Dementor, it (boggart) behaves in the same way as the real one. When Harry sees his boggart he can feel as if the real Dementor was approaching. He hears the voices in his head and so on... So why Lupin's boggart doesn't affect Lupin? Why he doesn't change into a werewolf? It'd seem logical after all... To me now it's obvious that Lupin's boggart isn't the moon. It simply can't (as far as JKR didn't make a mistake). Now I'm questioning myself... is it really the crystal ball? It seems that Lupin is as complex character (or even more complex) as Snape... Which not necesserly makes him ESE!Lupin... Julia who is wondering what Lupin is afraid of... From jodel at aol.com Sun May 2 16:15:48 2004 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel_from_aol) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 16:15:48 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's suspicions of Moody, was The Problem with Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97519 > > As I've said before, I do think that bits and pieces of > evidence--all of it presumably reported to him by others, > including Snape and the portraits--created suspicions in DD's > mind long before the Tri-Wizard Tournament. I don't know about "long before the Tri-Wizard Tournament", but he would have almost certainly known by the start of Spring term. That it, if he was given all the information that even Harry got. 1. As soon as Harry's name came out of the goblet Dumbledore knew that Voldemort had an agent in place and was running some kind of rig under the cover of the Tournement. 2. We don't know how widely the fact that Voldemort had "marked" his followers was known. That's the kind of information Crouch Sr. would have supressed as a security measure. The real Moody, as a working Auror MAY have known of it. HOWEVER 3. The fact that he *taunted* Snape about it on the *very same night* he raided the boomslang skin stores would have given Albus all of the pieces necessary to draw the right conclusion. Namely: Raid on ingredient essential for Polyjuice potion Moody's hip flask reference to Dark Mark Presence of a DE agent at Hogwarts Would have made it pretty clear that "Moody" was almost certainly their man. The identity of the person impersonating Moody might have been uncertain for a bit longer. But Barty Crouch Sr's raving would have been enough to bring Winky into it. Something clarly was going on at the Crouch household, and she had been a member of it for a long time. From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Sun May 2 16:31:48 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 16:31:48 -0000 Subject: Good Slytherins was Dumbledore's Army (DA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97520 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > If you seach the group (yes, I know, not a pleasant task) for 'Good > Slytherin', you will come up with several good long discussions about > where the good Slytherin(s) will come from, why we will suddenly see > them, and who they might actually be. The most likely candidates are > Blaise Zabini, who was introduce in the first book and never heard > from again, and Theodore Nott, whose father is one of the Death Eaters > captured at the Ministry of Magic - Dept. of Mysteries in the last book. > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn I did that search and came up with bupkis. I can't help thinking that the Good Slytherin is going to be Draco Malfoy. I only have two real pieces of evidence to support this theory, and they're flimsy. One, there is an overwhelming "things are not as they seem" theme and Draco and the Malfoys have so far been very much as they seem. Two, the school motto means "Never wake a sleeping dragon" or something along those lines, and Draco means dragon. In addition, it is entirely too easy to come up with plausible ways for it to happen. Voldemort is as nasty to his followers as he is to his enemies, he could discard Lucius in a manner that alienates Draco. Draco could be disillusioned by something he sees his father do. Narcissa could secretly despise the whole pureblood thing and take advantage of the fact that Lucius is in prison to extricate Draco from that culture. From tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com Sun May 2 17:15:44 2004 From: tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 13:15:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OWLS - Draco Mystery References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97521 > Well, we DO know that Hermione does indeed draw her wand on Draco, so > perhaps at a later date, she "does him in" (so to speak) before she > can control herself...being such a control freak; emotions, > schedules, etc, it's highly likely she'll finally "snap" one day! I think I have to disagree. Being high strung, she probably will snap someday, but we've already seen indications that she wouldn't go quite so far to "do" anyone "in" despite her being temporarily insane. She snapped at Malfoy in Book 3, and while she did draw her wand, her determination wasn't enough to instantaneously do anything, giving her friends time to hold her back and giving her time to rethink her actions. Granted, if Malfoy does something dreadful enough, there's no telling what would happen, but unless JKR actually does install Draco as the next dark lord, I think it's highly unlikely that Hermione will be killing Malfoy for his stupid baiting tricks any time soon. ~Ali [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun May 2 17:33:55 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:33:55 +0100 Subject: Perchance to dream... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97522 I was wondering - why bother to recount a dream in canon and then tell us that the dreamer never remembers it? Such an odd dream, too. PS/SS (yes, waaaay back near the beginning) at the very end of chap. 7, Harry has a dream. He wears a talking turban (Quirrells) which tells him that he must switch to Slytherin (his destiny, it seems) and which he can't get off; a laughing Malfoy morphs into Snape, who has a high cold laugh (anyone heard Snape laugh before?) and it all ends in a flash of green light. Well, now. Anyone believe in the divination of dreams? 'Cos this one's ripe for Trelawney's inimitable interpretations. This is Harry's first night in Hogwarts; he sees Snape for the first time just 2 pages earlier, gets told by the Sorting Hat that he's Slytherin material 6 pages earlier and has no idea what a green flash signifies. Talking turbans must be a bit of a worry too. Just how many hints has JKR slipped past our guard with this one? We know nothing about talking turbans, Snape or green flashes at this stage either. But before the end of the book one of the constituents of the dream is explained. Voldy is in there disguised as a short back and sides. What to make of the rest? Lots of fun possibilities, that's what. Tentatively I'd lean towards intimations of the future, maybe chances of 70/30. Slytherin is his destiny. Lots of posters have been looking for a good Slytherin, but this seems a bit extreme. Rumours of someone swapping houses, too. I keep remembering - that Prophecy - it said he would be Voldy's equal; never mentioned him being his opposite. And the Hat "You could be great, you know [...] ..and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness.." No mention of greatness allied with Gryffindor, or did I miss something? Malfoy morphs into Snape - JKR did say that one of the students becomes a teacher, but really; you don't think? Surely not. Snape laughs. What a concept! A smile like the nameplate on a coffin perhaps, but laughter? Something very, very bad has just happened. Or is it will happen? And a green flash. Again - was or will be? Are Snape and the green flash connected? Has our Sevvy been/will be a bad boy? This little vignette is glossed over with the phrase "Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit too much..." Or perhaps it has something to do with Voldy's presence making itself felt for the first time since Godric's Hollow. Kneasy From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com Sun May 2 18:28:14 2004 From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (SiriusBlack4Eternity) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 11:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040502182814.12125.qmail@web14812.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97523 mommystery2003 wrote: Ces: Snape is Snape and nothing will change that! He hates Harry and loves to see him in trouble. He gives him occulmency lessons under protests (it seems) but is unwilling to answer Harry's questions. SB4E: Unwilling? Seems to me that DD doesn't want anyone but him to tell Harry anything...so maybe Snape told Harry everything DD allowed him to tell... SiriusBlack4Eternity --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun May 2 18:59:46 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 18:59:46 -0000 Subject: Prophecy and Choice In-Reply-To: <20040429100835.93074.qmail@web90007.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Franzi schuerch wrote: > I think it is important that the word vanquish rather > than kill is used in the prophecy. > So I suspect there > must be another way to get rid of Voldie. > Because when it comes to magical > knowledge and skills surely DD is the match for LV but > according to the prophecy only Harry (or Neville) have > the power to defeat him. So what does Harry have that > DD hasn't? The most obvious would be Harry's scar and > the connection between him and LV that comes from it. > Furthermore, [DD] talks about a > force [...] that is so powerful that the door to > it at the MM is always looked (interesting that it is > not death that needs to be looked away), and that > Harry is full of this great force. It is not explicit > said but I would think the power DD talk about is > love. > Harry may have enough > power (love) to make up for all the evil in LV. > [...] Harry may have the > opportunity to use it against LV because of his scar > and the connection that comes with it. I think in the > final battle between LV and Harry it will not come > down to "wand magic" and knowledge but to willpower > and emotions. At the end of GoF we saw that Harry is a > serious opponent for Valdie in this department. From > Voldie's point of view it was probably the biggest > mistake to choose Harry over Neville. > > Cheers Franzi Annemehr: I like how you've put these ideas together: ~"Vanquish" doesn't necessarily mean "kill." ~The power Harry has and LV knows not seems to be "love," according to Dumbledore. ~The scar connection is the conduit for the power Harry has. One objection to the idea of Harry defeating Voldemort by love has been that Harry doesn't necessarily show any greater capacity for it than everybody else: what makes him so special? Well, partly, at least, it's the scar connection that makes Harry special. It can be the combination of the connection with a great capacity for love that defeats LV. Others' great capacities for love (Lily's for instance, or Hagrid's) weren't enough to do it, because they lacked the connection. Of course, you may still get some argument about whether Harry really does have that much capacity for loving, but not from me! ;-) Annemehr who can't reconcile her lingering doubts about whether it *is* love behind the locked door with Dumbledore's seeming assumption that it's obvious even to *Harry* what's back there, but there you go... From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun May 2 19:24:15 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 20:24:15 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists References: Message-ID: <012a01c4307b$0f003900$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 97525 Carol asked > I haven't studied werewolves (or vampires, for that matter), so I > can't answer this question, but maybe some of the folklorists can. How > long is a "full moon"? Is it just one night, or does each phase (new > moon, first quarter, full moon, last quarter) last about a week for > werewolves as it does on a Muggle calendar? In other words, how many > days each month would Lupin be confined to the Shrieking Shack (or his > living quarters at Hogwarts)? K Well I don't know whether one or three nights is more common in folklore (but they're the two lengths of time I've seen most often) but according to Fantastic Beasts in the Potterverse Lupin would transform for only one night. K From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun May 2 19:38:50 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 19:38:50 -0000 Subject: Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97526 > Caesian, quoting JKR during the most recent web-chat: > > "Of course, he is somewhat hampered by the fact that his wand > is broken and disguised as an umbrella." > > Yes, but a little pink umbrella? And what's up with the spotted > hankies? Sentimental valubles, perhaps. > > > Carol again: > First, before I read that transcript, I was under the impression from > something in the books themselves (maybe the quote Geoff provided that > got snipped from this post) that the broken wand was hidden inside the > umbrella, but "disguised as an umbrella" almost sounds as if the > magically challenged Hagrid (sorry--had to use that term) somehow > turned his own wand into an umbrella, evidently using someone else's > wand. That doesn't make sense, so I'm back to the idea that the broken > wand has been slipped inside the hollow handle of the umbrella and > that's what JKR means by "disguised." Annemehr: Whether the wand *is* the umbrella or is *in* the umbrella, I've always assumed Dumbledore had something to do with it. I think that's the explanation for how a completely "broken" wand could work as well as it does and also partly for Hagrid's extreme devotion to DD. I believe Hagrid's wand was duly snapped by a Ministry official, but then Dumbledore took him under his wing. Besides finding him a place at Hogwarts as Groundskeeper (or, at first, Groundskeeper's apprentice), I'll bet he did a fair job of repairing the wand and even suggested the umbrella. Though Hagrid's wand is still not really whole, I'd think it would be utterly useless if it were still in two pieces. Just my fond opinion, anyway. Annemehr From caesian at yahoo.com Sun May 2 18:09:01 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 18:09:01 -0000 Subject: Perchance to dream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97527 Kneasy wrote: > I was wondering - why bother to recount a dream in canon and then tell > us that the dreamer never remembers it? Such an odd dream, too. > > PS/SS (yes, waaaay back near the beginning) at the very end of chap. 7, > Harry has a dream. He wears a talking turban (Quirrells) which tells > him that he must switch to Slytherin (his destiny, it seems) and which > he can't get off; a laughing Malfoy morphs into Snape, who has a high > cold laugh (anyone heard Snape laugh before?) and it all ends in a > flash of green light. > > Well, now. Anyone believe in the divination of dreams? 'Cos this one's > ripe for Trelawney's inimitable interpretations. This is Harry's first > night in Hogwarts; he sees Snape for the first time just 2 pages > earlier, gets told by the Sorting Hat that he's Slytherin material 6 > pages earlier and has no idea what a green flash signifies. Talking > turbans must be a bit of a worry too. > > Just how many hints has JKR slipped past our guard with this one? We > know nothing about talking turbans, Snape or green flashes at this > stage either. But before the end of the book one of the constituents of > the dream is explained. Voldy is in there disguised as a short back > and sides. > > What to make of the rest? > Lots of fun possibilities, that's what. > Tentatively I'd lean towards intimations of the future, maybe chances > of 70/30. > > Slytherin is his destiny. Lots of posters have been looking for a good > Slytherin, but this seems a bit extreme. Rumours of someone swapping > houses, too. I keep remembering - that Prophecy - it said he would be > Voldy's equal; never mentioned him being his opposite. And the Hat "You > could be great, you know [...] ..and Slytherin will help you on the way > to greatness.." > No mention of greatness allied with Gryffindor, or did I miss something? > > Malfoy morphs into Snape - JKR did say that one of the students becomes > a teacher, but really; you don't think? Surely not. > > Snape laughs. What a concept! A smile like the nameplate on a coffin > perhaps, but laughter? Something very, very bad has just happened. Or > is it will happen? > > And a green flash. Again - was or will be? Are Snape and the green > flash connected? Has our Sevvy been/will be a bad boy? > > This little vignette is glossed over with the phrase "Perhaps Harry had > eaten a bit too much..." Or perhaps it has something to do with Voldy's > presence making itself felt for the first time since Godric's Hollow. > > Kneasy Caesian responds: I was just reading this passage about 2 minutes before your post - talk about divination. I think you are correct that the dream is meaningful, but there are two points I disagree with. Harry does understand the flash of green light, and even the high-pitched cackle of laughter - because he recalls them after Hagrid describes his parents death earlier in the book. *That* moment was the first time he had heard the laugh, but he had remembered the green flash of light even when he was at the Dursleys, and associated it with his parents death - although then he believed it was a car crash. Second, I think that it is clear that Malfoy > Snape > LV (or Snape / LV), so that Snape is no longer literal Snape when the laughter wakes Harry up. I'm not sure what this progression indicates.. (levels of annoyance?) What bothers me is why the turban, which Harry is wearing in the dream, wants Harry to transfer to Slytherin. Now, personally I think this could not be good for Harry, but Slytherins seem to think it's good for them. Why would his enemy (the turban has LV in it, afterall) suggest he transfer to Slytherin? Why not suggest he go wander about the forbidden forest or take a long walk off a short parapet? When Harry doesn't agree, the turban gets heavier and heavier, then tightens painfully. This certainly seems to portend Harry's struggles in future - as his burden is getting heavier each book. It also suggests that Harry's choices to resist the Slytherin viewpoint are a most critical part of his struggle - if he could be reduced to a non-threat simply by choosing to transfer to Slytherin, that suggests that LV would be wiser to court him that kill his friends. And speaking of divination among the students, I'm still trying to figure out whether it was Lavendar or Parvati who realized that Harry would ask Parvati to the Yule Ball before he did - although they, Trelawny-like, failed to foresee the reason behind or import of the envisioned outcome. And BTW, as for Madam Rosmerta's magical metabolism, that cream-sauce comment was intended as completely innocent! :) Powers of the subconcious! Caesian From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Sun May 2 19:46:54 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 19:46:54 -0000 Subject: Poor Lucius was: Bellatrix's 'French' accent on the Audio tape/cd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Meredith" wrote: > Catherine McK: > No wonder Lucius sometimes sounds a bit weary in their company. Can > > > you imagine them all at the dinner table? > > > > > > Mandy here: > > Catherine you have actually made me feel sorry for Lucius Malfoy! > > Having the Black Family of Lunatics as your in-laws, would drive > > anyone insane. Although I suspect the Lucius is much of an inbred > > lunatic as his wife and her family are. > > > > Luckie: > People find it odd that while Bellatrix and Sirius inherited the > famous Black family good looks, Narcissa is a pale blonde. I always > thought it was more of a tounge-in-cheek joke that Narcissa and > Lucius both look alike - attractive with pale eyes and blond hair. > Kind of a visual reminder of the inbreeding amongst the purebloods. > > ~Luckie Antosha: I wonder if JKR knew Narcissa was going to be a Black when she had her enter the series with that disgusted look on her face in GoF. I mean, she didn't have the constellation- inspired name, she didn't have the dark hair... I don't feel sorry for Lucius. He gets what he deserves. ;-) The one I'm really curious about is Tonks. What does she REALLY look like? Will we be surprised? Or is the heart-shaped face the norm? And what color is her hair, naturally? Certainly not pink. Is she another in the Sirius/Bellatrix line of Blacks, looks-wise, or is she a total break with tradition? From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Sun May 2 19:56:56 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 19:56:56 -0000 Subject: Draco as LV's heir? (was OWLS - Draco Mystery) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > Well, we DO know that Hermione does indeed draw her wand on Draco, so > > perhaps at a later date, she "does him in" (so to speak) before she > > can control herself...being such a control freak; emotions, > > schedules, etc, it's highly likely she'll finally "snap" one day! > > I think I have to disagree. Being high strung, she probably will snap someday, but we've already seen indications that she wouldn't go quite so far to "do" anyone "in" despite her being temporarily insane. She snapped at Malfoy in Book 3, and while she did draw her wand, her determination wasn't enough to instantaneously do anything, giving her friends time to hold her back and giving her time to rethink her actions. Granted, if Malfoy does something dreadful enough, there's no telling what would happen, but unless JKR actually does install Draco as the next dark lord, I think it's highly unlikely that Hermione will be killing Malfoy for his stupid baiting tricks any time soon. > > ~Ali > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Antosha: I have to say, if Draco tries to set himself up as LV II, he'll last about ten minutes. He lacks Tom Riddle's ambition, his ruthlessness (he seldom follows through on his threats), his lack of fear (of anything other than actual death), and his ability to think big. From what we've seen so far of Draco, he's a snobbish, cowardly bully with more in common with Dudley than anyone else in the series--the only distinctions being that Draco is a) attractive (I think this is book-canon, rather than film contamination, but I could be wrong), b) wealthy c) somewhat intelligent and d) a wizard. So if Malfoy the Younger decides to fill the power vacuum after LV's eventual defeat, I think he'll last about as long as he did when he and his goons tried to take on Harry in the train corridor at the end of OotP. At that point, Hermione *may* snap and turn him into something worse than a giant slug. But I don't think it will cost her a second thought. From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 20:09:03 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 13:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Poor Lucius was: Bellatrix's 'French' accent on the Audio tape/cd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040502200903.67289.qmail@web50001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97530 Antosha: I wonder if JKR knew Narcissa was going to be a Black when she had her enter the series with that disgusted look on her face in GoF. I mean, she didn't have the constellation- inspired name, she didn't have the dark hair... I don't feel sorry for Lucius. He gets what he deserves. ;-) The one I'm really curious about is Tonks. What does she REALLY look like? Will we be surprised? Or is the heart-shaped face the norm? And what color is her hair, naturally? Certainly not pink. Is she another in the Sirius/Bellatrix line of Blacks, looks-wise, or is she a total break with tradition My reply: I always thought that the way she described Narcissa was a clue into who she was. Thinking back to how all the Blacks have been described is that they were attractive but they had something that was keeping them from having their true beauty showing. Narcissa's scowl was the example of it to me. However, in order to think about what Tonks looks like we must first try and figure out what her mother, Andromeda looked like. It's obvious that the Blacks are related through their fathers, given the name. Thus, it is possible that Sirius and Bellatrix both resemble their fathers while Narcissa and Andromeda could both be blonde and look like their mother. At one point Tonks does have blonde and curly hair, and it was in the morning so one could assume that is what she looks like naturally. But then again that's just pure speculation. ~Melanie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun May 2 20:10:04 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 20:10:04 -0000 Subject: Reference: Full moon - Rise and Set In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97531 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > > Bookworm: > According to the Farmer's Almanac, there are at least 7 daytime full > moons on 2003 and 2004. By my figuring, about 30% of the time the > moon is full during the daytime. And from my observations, the full > moon rises during the late morning and sets a little after midnight. > (Just my observations, and I'm late for work, so I can't check it > now.) > > July 13, 2003 - 2:21 pm > September 10, 2003 - 11:36 am > December 8, 2003 - 3:36 pm > January 7, 2004 - 10:40 am > May 4, 2004 - 3:33 pm > July 31, 2004 - 1:05 pm > December 26, 2004 - 10:06 am > http://www.farmersalmanac.com/astronomy/fullmoons.html > > Ravenclaw Bookworm bboy_mn: For those wanting detailed information of Moon Rise and Set times, go the US Naval Observatory.... http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.html For a likely location in Scotish Highlands use... 57 deg 30 min N 5 deg 0 min W Time Zone 1 hr West Also, this site allows you to select any year, so you could enter the year of the Prisoner of Azkaban which I assume is the 1993/1994 school year. Here are Moon Phases for every year from 1990 to present. The times given are Universal time (Greenwich Mean Time) which is virtually the same as Scotland. http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.html Just for fun. bboy_mn From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun May 2 20:47:51 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 06:47:51 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full moon question for the folklorists In-Reply-To: References: <4094F624.32113.8F04BB@localhost> Message-ID: <4095EB17.31650.134A6B@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 97532 On 2 May 2004 at 16:07, scoutmom21113 wrote: > Bookworm: > According to the Farmer's Almanac, there are at least 7 daytime full > moons on 2003 and 2004. You're misreading the almanac - the times given are the moments of totality - the point where the moon is truly, absolutely 100% full. This has nothing to do with whether or not the moon is visible in daylight from a giving location. > By my figuring, about 30% of the time the > moon is full during the daytime. And from my observations, the full > moon rises during the late morning and sets a little after midnight. > (Just my observations, and I'm late for work, so I can't check it > now.) Not on planet Earth, so unless you're a really long way away. The phase of the moon is dependent on its entire face (from our point of view) being directly pointed at the sun. The only time this can occur is when we are on a direct line between the moon and the sun. When that occurs, the moon always rises near sunset, is at its peak near midnight, and sets near sunrise (for given values of 'near'). This is absolute astronomical fact. Both the phase of the moon and the time of moonrise/moonset are completely and totally linked to the alignment of the sun, moon, and earth, and both match these patterns. > July 13, 2003 - 2:21 pm > September 10, 2003 - 11:36 am > December 8, 2003 - 3:36 pm > January 7, 2004 - 10:40 am > May 4, 2004 - 3:33 pm > July 31, 2004 - 1:05 pm > December 26, 2004 - 10:06 am > http://www.farmersalmanac.com/astronomy/fullmoons.html Those times do not indicate the full moon is visible during daylight. Rather they indicate the moment of complete totality, when the moon may well be below the horizon - in fact, it will absolutely certainly be below the horizon for about half the planet. The time the moon rises depends on your location. Let's just look at one of the dates so we can see what is indicated here. January 7 2004 - 10:40am EST. Because it's EST, we'll grab a US east coast location - New York. I could use any other location - I just already have its settings. At that point, while the moon is full, it's *well* below the horizon - 20 degrees below the horizon in fact. It won't rise until 4:36pm - 8 minutes before sunset. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From mommystery at hotmail.com Sun May 2 21:05:01 2004 From: mommystery at hotmail.com (mommystery2003) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 21:05:01 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: <20040502182814.12125.qmail@web14812.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97533 > SB4E: > > Unwilling? Seems to me that DD doesn't want anyone but him to tell Harry anything...so maybe Snape told Harry everything DD allowed him to tell... > > SiriusBlack4Eternity You know, that's a very good point, and again, it makes Snape look to be the bad guy in Harry's eyes. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sun May 2 21:31:28 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 21:31:28 -0000 Subject: Draco as LV's heir? (was OWLS - Draco Mystery) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97534 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Exactly right. Hermione "snapped" in PoA because she was overworked, and very likely just discovering the joys of late-luteal phase dysphoric disorder (PMS) at the same time. Otherwise she would have drawn her wand *before* she went upside his head. In OoP, she decides fairly early on that something has to be done about Umbridge, but she doesn't *snap*, she seizes the opportunity when it presents itself. --JDR From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 15:42:24 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 15:42:24 -0000 Subject: Full Moon question for the Folklorists Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97535 Shaun wrote: >The one I would personally favour is the idea that the moonlight is 'drowned out' by the 'sunlight'. If the sun is visible, it will always be the dominant lightsource in the sky. So, if I had to come up with an explanation, I'd start by looking at the dominance of different light sources. During daylight, the light of the sun simply washes out the light of the moon, to an extent it can't have a lycanthropic effect. Just for the record - while technically speaking full moon is an instant, most astronomers generally consider it to be about 3 days - one night either side of the actual night of totality - when they need to use a looser definition. But this is constantly debated. Okay, most of this is based on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but the werewolf on that show needed to be restrained, etc., for three days. But beyond this, I thought the lunacy supposedly caused by a full moon was more directly related to the type of light the moon casts. It's reflected light and eeire looking, esp the way it can light up the night. And this isn't even considering the whole pull of gravity/tides thing, which for astrologers is a big deal. The moon, being as full as it can be, has more of an effect than it does when it's not full. As for seeing the light of the full moon, I think that it's not so much if a lycanthropic person sees it, but more like if the light touches them, which is now complicated by Silverthorne: >Although, then we're looking at another question--why don't werewolves just go hide in some place where the moonlight cannot reach them for that night? If it takes exposure to actual moonlight to trigger the change, then surely the smart ones at least (and I include Remus in this statement), can find an appropiate hidey hole. Now that's a good question! From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 15:58:03 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 15:58:03 -0000 Subject: Imposter!Moody Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97536 I've read lost of posts re: Imposter!Moody, but so far no one seems to be talking about exactly what he taught those kids. IMHO, I thought he was a good teacher! He taught those kids a lot of practical stuff, dangerous or not. I realize Imposter!Moody had to keep HP alive til he could be delivered to LV, but would you really want your enemy to be knowledgeable and prepared to fight dark magic? I mean, why teach Harry (and the other kids) to resist Imperio curses? Why didn't Imposter!Moody just run around anonymously saving/protecting Harry whenever he was in danger, similar to Snape trying to help Harry stay on his broom in SS? And why teach ALL the kids that stuff? If Imposter!Moody wants LV to come back at full strength, obviously (presumably) to take over the WW, then why teach the younger generations to resist his evil influence? K, another point. I really thought I!M seemed quite likable, and having said that, and I know this has been covered to some extent, I'd really like to see the Real Moody teach DADA in book 6. Paranoid or no, Moody's an excellent Auror, and IIRC, isn't his personal claim to fame that he brought in a bunch of DE's without using Unforgivables, as in really battling them, hence all his scars, and the missing chunk from his nose? Anyways, I think it would be great if the Real!Moody became the next DADA teacher. I know that Alastor Moody already taught DADA, but technically, because he was I!M (Barty) then the Real one didn't, and therefore would be a new DADA teacher, conforming to the set pattern that no one ever teaches that class two years in a row. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 2 21:44:58 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 21:44:58 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97537 > > Potioncat: > > I'm not sure when I caught that phrase, but I remember being > > surprised there had already been assignments. Although that's the way I understood it. Alla wrote: > Could you please, please provide a quote? I am under very stron > assumption that there were no assignments yet before they started > Hogwarts. Why would it be? I would say that at least Muggle-born > children are not expected to know anything about magic yet. Potioncat: I think you are right. The quote is "Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh Potter?" Shortly after that quote he gives the answers and chides the class for not writing it down. Given the description of Harry looking at his books and finding them interesting back at Privet Drive, I no longer think there were assignments. But I will add this for what it's worth. I do think Snape was trying to deflate an ego we know Harry didn't have. I think Snape fully expects Harry to be like James and at this point people were already talking about Harry Potter. Snape is certainly the type of man who thinks he is always right. And when he's wrong....he's right. Back to the banquet. Snape only looked at Harry. There is no description of any expression at all on Snape's face. There is a sharp hot pain across Harry's scar. He yells "ouch" and clasped his hand on his forhead. (Who knows what that grimace of pain looked like to Snape? I once thought a co-worker was mad all day, only to discover later that she had a migraine.) Does Snape expect Harry to arrive at Hogwarts knowing that his father and Snape were enemies? Did he hear from Hagrid that Harry Potter had been kept in the dark about the magic world? "Harder to shake off was the feeling Harry had gotten from the teaher's look--a feeling he didn't like Harry at all." At this point all of us think the pain was caused by Snape. Maybe it was LV who didn't like Harry at all. So the first day of class, no mean looks, but Snape taunts Harry as a celebrity and asks him questions he doesn't know. He taunts him for not knowing the answers, although it's unlikely no one else does. I have to wonder if the Slytherins knew. They were laughing at Harry as if they didn't expect to have to answer or as if they knew the answer. Harry is chided later when Neville melts a cauldron. He loses two points during the class. Ron warns him that Snape can get nasty and that he takes points from the twins all the time. So at this point, I almost have to wonder if Snape is the type to have a target in each class? (Not the twins, I can easily imagine they would deserve to lose points.) While Snape wasn't nice to Harry, OK, Snape was pretty mean to Harry, he wasn't giving him evil looks. But I'm not sure what my overall point is at the moment. Potioncat who has confused herself. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun May 2 21:45:21 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 21:45:21 -0000 Subject: Full moon question for the folklorists In-Reply-To: <4095EB17.31650.134A6B@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97538 Shaun Hately: Those times do not indicate the full moon is visible during daylight. Rather they indicate the moment of complete totality, when the moon may well be below the horizon - in fact, it will absolutely certainly be below the horizon for about half the planet. Bookworm: Okay, my bad. As I said earlier: (Just my observations, and I'm late for work, so I can't check it now.) I guess what I was thinking about is that about a week before the full moon the moon is visible during the afternoon. That's my warning to start watching for werewolf-like behavior in my kids. And anyone who says that the moon doesn't affect behavior hasn't spent much time around small children... Carol: How long is a "full moon"? Is it just one night, or does each phase (new moon, first quarter, full moon, last quarter) last about a week for werewolves as it does on a Muggle calendar? Bookworm: I've seen the effects in kids the day before or the day after the actual full moon. Shall we estimate a werewolf would feel the effects 24-36 hours before and after the totality? A werewolf would feel the full moon approaching for 6-12 hours , would transform for, say, 24 hours, then have to recover for another 6-12 hours as the moon's influence faded. A one-day absence might not have been as noticeable, but a 2-3 day absence each month definitely would be noticed by Remus's friends. Shaun Hately: Not on planet Earth, so unless you're a really long way away. Bookworm: Sometimes I wonder.... From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 16:37:34 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 16:37:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Army (DA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > > Mo: > But, with that said, since > > it is increasingly dangerous times, I bet that a superb DADA > teacher > > will be installed next year and DADA is going to change into a > > serious training/defence program now that everyone in the WW will > > know that LV is back. > > > x > > Potioncat: > All the more reason not to give DADA to Snape, unless his cover has > been completely blown by that time. > > That and the unfortunate incident of the kappas. :-) Uh, I always sort of figured that the reason DD won't give SS the DADA position is because DD thinks teaching DADA will be too much of a temptation for SS. I mean, the dark arts are quite powerful/empowering. And since we already sort of know that SS was involved with LV, DE's and the dark arts, why tempt him? Sort of like asking an alcoholic to run a pub... From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun May 2 21:55:01 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 22:55:01 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full moon question for the folklorists References: Message-ID: <001301c43090$1e6843f0$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 97540 > > Bookworm: > I've seen the effects in kids the day before or the day after the > actual full moon. Shall we estimate a werewolf would feel the > effects 24-36 hours before and after the totality? A werewolf would > feel the full moon approaching for 6-12 hours , would transform for, > say, 24 hours, then have to recover for another 6-12 hours as the > moon's influence faded. K I may be misunderstanding your argument (entirely possible) but a werewolf obviously *doesn't* transform for 24 hours because Remus transformed sometime late at night during the finale of PoA and then changed back sometime that morning - presumably not very late in the morning because once the students were awake I imagine a naked man might have some difficulty getting back to the castle without being seen ... K From lyyved at earthlink.net Sun May 2 22:04:45 2004 From: lyyved at earthlink.net (Lynn Eddy) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:04:45 -0400 Subject: OT A Favor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97541 Hi, I'm writing to ask a favor (actually 2 favors). I'm one of the presenters at Convention Alley in Ottawa this summer. I'm leading a small group discussion on Health and Healthcare in the Wizarding World and doing a formal presentation titled The Artistry of Jim Dale: The American Audio Version of the Harry Potter Novels. It's with the second that I'm asking for help. I thought it would be interesting to add some statistics to the talk about just how big a job Jim Dale had reading the 5 books, so I've added up the total time, and am working my way through all the books counting all the separate voices (so far 221). Does anyone know the word count for the books? I've tried a search on Google with widely varying counts listed only for the last two books. I've checked with Steve from the Harry Potter Lexicon and he didn't know either. I can always scan all of them (if I can ever get my scanner to work right) but if someone already has the information (or can get it easily), that would be great! The second thing I would like to know is the accents that Dale has used. I'm not from Britain, and though I've asked a British born friend and fellow Harry Potter friend, she's been in the US so long she isn't very sure how helpful she will be. I know from written sources that Hagrid "comes from" Devon and all the centaurs have Welsh accents in Dale's version; McGonagall has a Scottish accent and Seamus Finnigan an Irish one (though if someone can get more specific that would be great. Please email privately at lyyved at earthlink.net Thanks for your patience with this long and OT message and special thanks in advance to anyone who can help. Laura Peregrine (known in real life as Lynn Eddy) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 22:21:18 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:21:18 -0000 Subject: This may have been discussed earlier....Wh was Hermy at Grimwauld In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97542 Fran wrote: I have been re-reading the HP series for the 8th or 9th time now, and it has bothered me that Hermione's stay at the order was never explained. I seem to remember Harry complaining that they were all at Grimwald or is it Grimwauld Place, but once he arrived there, he never asked why she was there. Hermione ususally goes on summer vacation with her parents except in GOF. And from the letters Harry recieved from her, it sounds as if she was there much of the summer holiday. If this has been discussed before, then I will go bang my head against the wall and iron my fingers. If not, all opinions are welcome of course! Carol: My theory is extremely simple. She was visiting Ron at the Burrow. When the Weasleys moved to Grimmauld Place attend meetings, be closer to the MoM, and in Molly's case, help clean it up, they took the kids with them. Naturally Hermione, as Ron's guest, wouldn't be left behind! Carol P.S. No need to iron your fingers if your proposed topic has been discussed before. Whatever the topic, chances are it's been hashed over a dozen times at least--in the case of some topics (Snape's motives!), probably several hundred times. Then again, I haven't read all 97,500-odd posts, so I'm probably underestimating. :-) C. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 22:54:48 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:54:48 -0000 Subject: Prophecy and Choice (was Re: Crouch/Moody/surviving AK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97543 imamommy wrote: I think the nature of a prophecy is that it describes what > will happen as a result of choices that will be made, but does not > determine those choices. > > "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." (DD to HP in CoS) The choices > that lead to the outcome the prophecy describes are independent of > that prophecy. If choices were made otherwise, the prophecy never > would have been made, or would have been made differently to reflect > the alternate outcome. > > The prophecy does not reveal who will be the victor, and ultimately, I think Harry has the choice of whether or not to defeat or be defeated. Carol: I agree that a prophecy describes what will happen as a result of choices and that the choices that lead to the outcome of the prophecy, including Voldemort's choice to go after Harry at Godric's Hollow and Harry's as yet unmade choice of whether (and when and how) to go after Voldemort are independent of the prophecy. I also agree that the prophecy doesn't reveal who will be the victor. I don't think, though, that if different choices were made (in the as- yet undetermined future) the prophecy would never have been made or would be made differently. I think it's deliberately obscure and ambiguous to allow for different outcomes. I also think that the prophecy would be fulfilled--somehow--whether the people involved knew about it or not. We already knew, didn't we, that Harry was destined to confront Voldemort in some sort of final battle before we read the prophecy? It seems like a given from the first book onward, the logical consequence of Godric's Hollow and Voldemort's initial defeat. Harry was protected from that knowledge by being placed with the Dursleys, but from the appearance of Hagrid at the hut onward, he's been given information and experienced confrontations that lead to that conclusion. The prophecy just confirms what he already knows (though I think that both he and Dumbledore are misreading it by thinking that one must murder the other). In any case, I think that the prophecy will come true in one form or another whether Voldemort finds out the rest of it or not--and would have done so if Harry had never heard of it. The prophecy doesn't determine anything because the element of choice is still present(when, where, and how) and the outcome is not stated. One will permanently defeat or destroy (not necessarily murder) the other (I think we know who will destroy whom), but there's no guarantee that either of them will survive. OTOH, if Harry denies his destiny and fails to confront Voldemort or dies before the confrontation takes place (as we can be pretty sure he won't), the WW will suffer a terrible fate. Carol From tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com Sun May 2 23:07:12 2004 From: tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com (tub_of_earwax) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 23:07:12 -0000 Subject: Perchance to dream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "caesian" wrote: > Kneasy wrote: > > I was wondering - why bother to recount a dream in canon and then tell > > us that the dreamer never remembers it? Such an odd dream, too. > > > > PS/SS (yes, waaaay back near the beginning) at the very end of chap. 7, > > Harry has a dream. He wears a talking turban (Quirrells) which tells > > him that he must switch to Slytherin (his destiny, it seems) and which > > he can't get off; a laughing Malfoy morphs into Snape, who has a high > > cold laugh (anyone heard Snape laugh before?) and it all ends in a > > flash of green light. > > > > Well, now. Anyone believe in the divination of dreams? 'Cos this one's > > ripe for Trelawney's inimitable interpretations. This is Harry's first > > night in Hogwarts; he sees Snape for the first time just 2 pages > > earlier, gets told by the Sorting Hat that he's Slytherin material 6 > > pages earlier and has no idea what a green flash signifies. Talking > > turbans must be a bit of a worry too. > > > > Just how many hints has JKR slipped past our guard with this one? We > > know nothing about talking turbans, Snape or green flashes at this > > stage either. But before the end of the book one of the constituents of > > the dream is explained. Voldy is in there disguised as a short back > > and sides. > > > > What to make of the rest? > > Lots of fun possibilities, that's what. > > Tentatively I'd lean towards intimations of the future, maybe chances > > of 70/30. > > > > Slytherin is his destiny. Lots of posters have been looking for a good > > Slytherin, but this seems a bit extreme. Rumours of someone swapping > > houses, too. I keep remembering - that Prophecy - it said he would be > > Voldy's equal; never mentioned him being his opposite. And the Hat "You > > could be great, you know [...] ..and Slytherin will help you on the way > > to greatness.." > > No mention of greatness allied with Gryffindor, or did I miss something? > > > > Malfoy morphs into Snape - JKR did say that one of the students becomes > > a teacher, but really; you don't think? Surely not. > > > > Snape laughs. What a concept! A smile like the nameplate on a coffin > > perhaps, but laughter? Something very, very bad has just happened. Or > > is it will happen? > > > > And a green flash. Again - was or will be? Are Snape and the green > > flash connected? Has our Sevvy been/will be a bad boy? > > > > This little vignette is glossed over with the phrase "Perhaps Harry had > > eaten a bit too much..." Or perhaps it has something to do with Voldy's > > presence making itself felt for the first time since Godric's Hollow. > > > > Kneasy > > > Caesian responds: > I was just reading this passage about 2 minutes before your post - talk about divination. I > think you are correct that the dream is meaningful, but there are two points I disagree > with. Harry does understand the flash of green light, and even the high-pitched cackle of > laughter - because he recalls them after Hagrid describes his parents death earlier in the > book. *That* moment was the first time he had heard the laugh, but he had remembered > the green flash of light even when he was at the Dursleys, and associated it with his > parents death - although then he believed it was a car crash. Second, I think that it is > clear that Malfoy > Snape > LV (or Snape / LV), so that Snape is no longer literal Snape > when the laughter wakes Harry up. I'm not sure what this progression indicates.. (levels of > annoyance?) > > What bothers me is why the turban, which Harry is wearing in the dream, wants Harry to > transfer to Slytherin. Now, personally I think this could not be good for Harry, but > Slytherins seem to think it's good for them. Why would his enemy (the turban has LV in it, > afterall) suggest he transfer to Slytherin? Why not suggest he go wander about the > forbidden forest or take a long walk off a short parapet? When Harry doesn't agree, the > turban gets heavier and heavier, then tightens painfully. This certainly seems to portend > Harry's struggles in future - as his burden is getting heavier each book. It also suggests > that Harry's choices to resist the Slytherin viewpoint are a most critical part of his struggle > - if he could be reduced to a non-threat simply by choosing to transfer to Slytherin, that > suggests that LV would be wiser to court him that kill his friends. > > And speaking of divination among the students, I'm still trying to figure out whether it was > Lavendar or Parvati who realized that Harry would ask Parvati to the Yule Ball before he did > - although they, Trelawny-like, failed to foresee the reason behind or import of the > envisioned outcome. > > And BTW, as for Madam Rosmerta's magical metabolism, that cream- sauce comment was > intended as completely innocent! :) Powers of the subconcious! > > Caesian Now Me: Cool question-post Kneasy, I never paid much attention to this dream, until now. Here are my two knuts: The reason for the dream (as Freud would tell you if he cuold rise from the dead - or was a ghost) is because Harry is kind of bothered by the fact that the hat wanted to put him in Slytherin when he earlier had heard from Hagrid that every bad wizard came from Slytherin, or that there are no good slytherin's or something to that extent (either way, him being in slytherin when judging only on that info is not good, he deduces). So I think the turban is a representation of the hat, only then with not the brains of the four founders in it, but the brain of Lord Voldemort. Lord Voldemort would want Harry in Slytherin because he'd much rather have Harry on his side than against him, as Harry is obviously a weak point to LV and a treath, a powerful wizard etc. In Slytherin Harry would be more likely to become DE because of influence of prominent Slytherins like Draco, Crabbe, Goyle (as far as we know), Knott, etc etc etc who have DE as fathers and are likely to follow their parental views (unless they have other influences or are rebellious, or have an inate desire to do good etc). What Slytherin stands for is power, ambition, and that is what LV has. LV wants power (and has it), and is very ambitious. Now if Harry would become more power- hungry he'd be easier for LV to manipulate because LV could tempt him with power etc. "We could rule the world together and live forever, making everything within our REACH!" *high-pitched, cold laughter* and then only use laughter, because a good evil overlord does not share power after all.... Now I do not think LV is trying to manipulate him or anything, because LV doesn't figure out how to "work the scar-link" until OotP, but it is possible that Harry thought so unconsciously, maybe with the help of some higher power (like ESP). Why Draco? I think because Draco told Harry he should be in Slytherin, back at Madame Malkin's Robes for all Occasions, and also tells him he should be friends with "the rights crowd" i.e. Slytherin, i.e. him. Why? Because that way you have power and fame on your side. Slytherins are smart after all, very cunning. This is along the same lines as LV's thoughts, but then much simpler and not looking that far into the future or as high as ruling the world (i.e. more kid-like). Now what is more difficult is why Snape. Snape is head of Slytherin house and as Harry looked at Snape his scar hurt, which Harry obviously links to Snape. So he has this idea of Snape being a bad guy of Slytherin house, and that he dislikes him (all from a look). So I think he may associate Snape with LV a little, and that is why Snape gets LV's laughter at the end of the dream. Kind of like how the sorting hat kind of was substitued by the Turban in the dream earlier. Or at least, that's all I could think of. Why does he not remember the dream? because you often don't after you've had one, especially is you go back to sleep afterwards. And what's the point in showing us the dream if he doesn't remember it? Well, he remembers it for a little while, and I think this is JKR's way of opening a path to CoS where he further delves into the Slytherin case with the whole heir, parseltongue and sword business and when he puts the sorting hat back on etc etc etc. I think it illustrates to show us (the reader) that Harry's worried, or confused or whatever about this whole business and maybe also to show us the connections Harry makes with Draco, Snape, Lv and Slytherin. I think it is much linked to CoS. You know, every time I think about it I realize again how important CoS really is, as it shows us cores of many worlds, relationships and ideas. Hope that helps. Very good question, Kneasy, I much enjoyed typing the post. Just my two knuts, *Lara*. From BrwNeil at aol.com Sun May 2 23:08:11 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 19:08:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: This may have been discussed earlier....Wh was Hermy ... Message-ID: <1cd.1fd43196.2dc6d95b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97545 In a message dated 5/2/2004 6:23:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: Fran wrote: I have been re-reading the HP series for the 8th or 9th time now, and it has bothered me that Hermione's stay at the order was never explained. I seem to remember Harry complaining that they were all at Grimwald or is it Grimwauld Place, but once he arrived there, he never asked why she was there. Hermione ususally goes on summer vacation with her parents except in GOF. And from the letters Harry recieved from her, it sounds as if she was there much of the summer holiday. Carol: My theory is extremely simple. She was visiting Ron at the Burrow. I agree with Carol, but I think it is anything but simple. I feel something has already happened between Ron and Hermione. At the time of the Yule Ball, they were both 14. At least one of them showed feelings for the other and so for the next year and one half it is never mentioned again. Neither says a word; it is totally forgotten. Unrealistic. I say that neither says a word in front of Harry and it is kept a secret to maintain the trio's friendship. That is why Ron is jealous that Hermione is still writing Krum. There is a relationship going on behind his back that both are afraid to tell Harry about. They will either tell Harry in book six or they will break up and Harry find out. Put this on my list of things that will happen along with a Ginny/Neville relationship and Arthur Weasley as MoM. If Hermione and Ron stay together and tell Harry then look for a Harry/Luna relationship. If Ron and Hermione fight and break up, then look for Ron to go to Luna and Hermione and Harry to wake up to each other in book 7. JKR has written the series in a way that either could easily take place. Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 23:13:16 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 23:13:16 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > > Potioncat: > I think you are right. The quote is "Thought you wouldn't open a > book before coming, eh Potter?" Shortly after that quote he gives > the answers and chides the class for not writing it down. > > Given the description of Harry looking at his books and finding them > interesting back at Privet Drive, I no longer think there were > assignments. Yes, that is exactly what I think. Thanks! I think we would have gotten some mention from Harry or Ron that they had to do some assigned reading if there was one. I mean, that would have been logical topic of their first conversation with Hermione on Hogwarts express, when she was bragging about reading the books > Back to the banquet. Snape only looked at Harry. There is no > description of any expression at all on Snape's face. snips a lot of potioncat post, because I want to reply to "evil look" part. > While Snape wasn't nice to Harry, OK, Snape was pretty mean to Harry, > he wasn't giving him evil looks. I think I have to agree with you. While Snape was definitely not ignoring Harry, I could not find any support in the text,which would qualify his look at the boy as evil. > > But I'm not sure what my overall point is at the moment. > Potioncat who has confused herself. Don"t worry. I am confusing myself quite often. :o) Alla From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun May 2 23:13:17 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 23:13:17 -0000 Subject: Full moon question for the folklorists In-Reply-To: <001301c43090$1e6843f0$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" Ravenclaw Bookworm From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 23:28:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 23:28:04 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape? Finding motive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Alla previously: > > OK, but to me touching his forehead does not even come close > to Harry mimicking Snape. :o)< > > Pippin: > Oops, that's not what I meant. I meant that Snape would think > Harry was pretending that Snape was so ugly that it gave him a > headache just to look at him. > > I understand now, but I still think that it is a pretty big stretch. Sorry! Maybe when JKR decides to revise the books, she will instead write another version from Snape POV ands then we 'll know for sure. :o) > Pippin: > I think Snape can control his emotions superbly, but not all the > time, and especially not where Harry is concerned. He's a > teacher, not a saint. LOL! Yes, I think Snape has a very, very, very long way to go before he could be considred a saint, if ever. I actually agree with you. I don't think that Snape is in control of his emotions where Harry is concerned most of the time. What I don't buy is that Snape is super calm, cool and collected when he deals with Harry. I said many times that I believe that where Harry is concerned , Snape is stuck on the emotional level of dealing with marauders. > I get the impression that you think Snape could treat Harry better > if he just tried harder. But what if Snape, like Neville, is trying > as hard as he can already? > > Pippin I am sorry again, I don't know if you intended this post to be humorous, but I am laughing again. If what Snape does right now is the best he can do, then he should definitely try harder. :o) I suppose, that if I knew that let's say every night before Snape goes to bed he repeats to himself- "Must be nice to Potter and Longbottom" or something to that extent, I would cut him more slack. :o) I doubt that he does it though. He is in the position of power and as far as I am concerned at the moment, he LIKES abusing his power. Alla From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 2 23:29:18 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 23:29:18 -0000 Subject: MalfoyMotto/DD'sOffice/SenseOfHumor/Animagus-Patronus/CrystalBall/FullMoon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97549 Lady McBeth asked in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/97108 : << Do we know the Malfoy family motto? >> I don't recall ever seeing any Malfoy family motton in canon, so I made one up: "Watch Your Back". That's good advice to Malfoys and even better advice to people who think they're friends or colleagues of Malfoys. The beautifully named Potioncat asked in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/97296 : << In one of those scenes you never notice at first, one of the DA members says that a portrait in DD's office told him about Harry killing the basilisk with Gryffindor's sword. My thought was: Why was this kid in DD's office? >> I had assumed he had been sent to the Headmaster's office as a punishment, or to have a punishment assigned. (The same as I was constantly sent to the principal's office in elementary school.) Another possibility is that he had been summoned there to be told of the health emergency of one of his family members. It is not clear to me how those tasks are divided between Head of House and Headmaster. Just Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/97452 : << Neither Hermione nor Harry has much of a sense of humor. IIRC, neither of them has ever initiated a joke or a pleasantry. >> Harry has a sense of humor. Narration that follows his thoughts includes many amusing turns of phrase; for example, I always remember when in CoS, he imagined young Hagrid letting the monster spider out 'to stretch its many legs." It is Hermione's lack of a sense of humor that disturbs me, because Hermione is supposed to be based on JKR. JKR has stated that an otter is the animal that she would like to be able to turn into, if she were an Animagus. The Animagus form reflects the wizard's personality (see below). Otters are good swimmers, hunters, fighters, but they are best known for their playfulness. JKR has demonstrated her playfulness as a writer, with wordplay and ROTFL scenes, but Hermione hasn't. Hermione should be seen making puns or trying to balance one butterbeer bottle on top of another or at least working logic puzzles or cryptograms in a Muggle book thereof. JKR has confirmed in interviews that the Animagus doesn't get to choose his/her animal form, but instead the animal form is a reflection of his/her personality. http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2 000_Live_Chat_America_Online.htm Q: Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality? JKR: Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach! http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Q: If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? A: I'd like to be an otter -- that's my favourite animal. It would be depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something. Adi asked in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr ownups/message/97325 : << Suggesting that there is a correlation between human parts and animal parts when a wizard transforms into an animal. But many animals do not have organs that are found in humans and they have extra organs which are not found in humans. How do people transforming into these animals manage with it? >> The organs appear when changing into the form that needs them and vanish when changing into the form that doesn't use them. It's magic. << Is a wizard's patronus same as the form he takes as an animagus? >> I also would like to know the relationship between Animagus form Patronus form. As I mentioned above, JKR has said that she would like to be an Otter if she were an Animagus, and she gave her avatar character (Hermione) an Otter for Patronus. Also, Cho's Patronus was a swan, which I think is an Animagus form that would suit her personality: beautiful but vicious. I think JKR simply takes it for granted that the form of a person's Patronus is the same form that person would take as an Animagus. To me that is illogical: she seems to be assuming that always what protects people is themselves, not their parents nor their faith in God nor their commitment to justice and/or the rule of law nor their luck nor their powers of deception. However, given an Animagus becomes the same creature as hiser Patronus, it would be wise for anyone to learn the Patronus spell before embarking on the difficult project of learning the Animagus spell, because that way they would find out whether the end product is worth the effort. (Earlier I said, that would solve my concern about what if a person's Animagus form were some kind of fish --- if they didn't know what the form would be until they first turned into it, their success would be to immediately drown in air, since they hadn't known to practise beside a pond or ocean. But a couple of listies assured me that fish don't drown *that* fast in air, they would have time to change back to human.) Just Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/97455 : << If Lupin isn't afraid of his future, why would he give Trelawney such a wide berth when she offered to read it in a crystal ball? >> Surely because he perceived, as I did, that Trelawney was making that offer as an excuse to get him alone to put the make on him. Surely the reason she so unusually came down to Christmas dinner (as shown by the first thing she said, "Where is dear Professor Lupin?") is because she was hoping for an opportunity to sit next to him and put her hand on his knee, or sit across from him and play footsie. I gather she has lived such a secluded life that at her age she still hasn't learned the unrealism of thinking "if I can get the man I fancy alone, somehow it will turn out that he fancies me, too." Shaun Hately wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/97532 : << Those times do not indicate the full moon is visible during daylight. Rather they indicate the moment of complete totality, when the moon may well be below the horizon - in fact, it will absolutely certainly be below the horizon for about half the planet. The time the moon rises depends on your location. Let's just look at one of the dates so we can see what is indicated here. January 7 2004 - 10:40am EST. Because it's EST, we'll grab a US east coast location - New York. I could use any other location - I just already have its settings. At that point, while the moon is full, it's *well* below the horizon - 20 degrees below the horizon in fact. It won't rise until 4:36pm - 8 minutes before sunset. >> I wish I could figure out how this relates to when does a werewolf transform? The impression I got from folklore is that he turns into a wolf at sunset and back to human at dawn, on the night of the Full Moon. When the instant of totality (that's the word for eclipses, I prefer 'plenitude' for Full Moon) is at 10:40 am, is it the night before or the night after which is the night of the Full Moon? Or does he transform on *both* nights when the moment of plenitude is during daylight? Or does he transform six hours before --> six hours after the moment of plenitude rather than at sunset and sunrise? The latter is suggested by JKR's answer in the same Scholastic chat cited above, if we assume that she meant 'full' rather than 'up' in her answer, because long ago listies proved that the moon came up before or shortly after he entered the Shack (because the sun had already set), and being inside the Shack didn't prevent him from transforming during his school years. (PoA, Chapter 17, CAT, RAT, AND DOG: << Harry's mind had gone blank with shock. The three of them stood transfixed with horror under the Invisibility Cloak. The very last rays of the setting sun were casting a bloody light over the long- shadowed grounds. Then, behind them, they heard a wild howling. (...) They set off back toward the castle, walking slowly to keep themselves hidden under the cloak. The light was fading fast now. By the time they reached open ground, darkness was settling like a spell around them. (...) "Harry," she whispered, "I think we're in the Shrieking Shack.") http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/arti cles/2000/1000-scholastic-chat.htm <> From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 23:31:31 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 23:31:31 -0000 Subject: Prophecy and Choice In-Reply-To: <20040429100835.93074.qmail@web90007.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Franzi schuerch wrote: > I think it is important that the word vanquish rather > than kill is used in the prophecy. I don't have the > books with me but I have a vague memory that in PS DD > said that LV took measures that prevent him from being > killed. In OoP DD says to LV that there are other ways > than death to destroy a men and he's fear of death > was always his greatest weakness. I am wondering what he > means by that. I would think the power DD talk about is > love. (I like the idea that love can overcome evil.) I > think it is no coincidence that since LV has used > Harry's blood to regain his body Harry is able to feel > not only when LV gets stronger but also his emotions. > What if this ability to feel the other's emotions > works both ways? My suggestion is that LV can be > defeated when he is exposed to love long enough so > that it destroys his evil sprit. Harry may have enough > power (love) to make up for all the evil in LV. I think in the > final battle between LV and Harry it will not come > down to "wand magic" and knowledge but to willpower > and emotions. At the end of GoF we saw that Harry is a > serious opponent for Valdie in this department. From > Voldie's point of view it was probably the biggest > mistake to choose Harry over Neville. > > Cheers Franzi Mo: Good post! As for the quote in the prophecy, it says "The one with the power to Vanquish the dark Lord approaches......... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives....." So, there is a part where it does talk about dying. But, the term "die" can be taken in several ways. If I may add to your post, I too think the "power the Dark Lord knows not" is, indeed, Love. I think LV will cause his own destruction because when he does experience love for the first time, it will be too overwhelming and it will be the one ancient force he will be unable to conquer. Also, the phrase "love your enemies"... I think that might apply in the end. I think the love LV might find from HP is the fact that HP will forgive him and that will be too much for LV to bear. ~Mo From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 23:53:44 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 23:53:44 -0000 Subject: Harry Immortal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97551 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jimlaming" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sarah" > wrote: > > Lori: > > > To put it another way, if I knew with certainty that I was going > to > > > develop a cure for cancer or die from cancer, why couldn't I jump > off > > > the roof for fun? > > > > Sarah: > > Jump off the roof? Or take a stroll behind the veil and see what > there is to > > see, maybe. Unless Voldemort pushes him, why couldn't he go behind > and live > > to tell about it? > > > > Sarah > > > Jim's response is: > > Because it would hurt. > > I don't know if Harry is immortal, I tend to think not, BUT he can be > hurt. This doesn't appear to be some "Groundhog Day" kind of world > where you wake up each day to live it over again as if nothing had > gone wrong the last time you lived it. Harry has been hurt several > times and will be again. Immortal or not, he still feels pain and he > still bleeds. > > That is enough for me, not to go jumping off the roof. > > JimLaming Mo: I don't think Harry is immortal. I think part of the prophecy is that WON'T die from anything and only has the POSSIBILITY/POTENTIAL of dying from LV because HP has a knack of getting out of tough situations. You have to admit, the charm placed on him has acted as an incredible protectorant. Harry doesn't want to die, hence, his strong will to survive and ability to survive. That doesn't make him immortal. It just gives him an extra seal of protection. ~Mo From Janicem211 at aol.com Sun May 2 22:17:12 2004 From: Janicem211 at aol.com (jemnilla28) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:17:12 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Express Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97552 Since reading CoS, when Ron and Harry ride Mr. Weasley's car to Hogwarts after missing the train, I have had a thought about the Hogwarts Express. Is there any way that students are required to ride the train because there is some type of magic done to them while on their way to school? (I mean, one that kind of "debriefs" the kids from the "real" world...) Before you flame me, please consider my reasons why. 1 - Harry and Ron are nearly expelled upon their arrival to Hogwarts (I realize that one reason for this is because they were seen in the air by Muggles.) 2 - After McGonagall gave them their detentions, they were forced to remain in her office and eat sandwiches during the feast. Why not just send them to the meal (despite McGonagall's stated reasons for doing so) unless there was some sort of magic involved? 3- Students who live north of London (and possibly near Hogwarts) still have to go to London and take that train. Just a thought.. From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 00:08:53 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 17:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD=Harry?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040503000853.38782.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97553 I am not sure if this has been discussed or not here but as I was re-reading the PS/SS it struck me as very odd that DD would tell McGonagall that "I would trust Hagrid with my life" (p 16 chapter 1). Is it possible that DD is actually Harry? Why would DD ever feel the need to trust his life to Hagrid? Also that would explain why DD knows that the prophecy is Harry. This could also explain why VD is scared of DD. He knows that he has the power to destroy him. If DD is Harry that would explain how he knew what happened at GH because he was there. There has also been discussions around about how Dobby was able to go to help Harry..well Dobby eventually was working for DD. DD is always very careful in choosing his words to explain situations. Anyways this is just something that I was thinking about and was curious to see if anyone else had any support for or against. animallover_11 From nakedkali at yahoo.com Mon May 3 01:01:59 2004 From: nakedkali at yahoo.com (Sea Change) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 01:01:59 -0000 Subject: Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97554 > The Sergeant Majorette says > SM> Like the 500-lb gorilla inn the classic joke, Hagrid will carry any SM> color umbrella he wants to. > SM> Anyway, he never opens the umbrella, does he? Maybe he just stuck SM> the wand bits to the umbrella on the inside with Spellotape. > > --JDR _____________________ Sea Change giggles: I thought that Hagrid's wand was exceptionally large and long, but can't find the canon for it. Would it fit in one of those flimsy fold-up brollies? I can remember but not quote several instances in which Hagrid is described as wet or snow-covered, which implies that the umbrella isn't very functional for Hagrid. Is an umbrella of any use in snow? (reveals ignorance of someone born and raised in coastal California) Is there canon in 5 that he is still carrying around this thing? I thought I read a listie type that there's a quote from JKR that after PoA that Hagrid has been exonerated? Sea Change, who doesn't own (or need to own) proper decent rainwear; and so carries a huge, motley, brightly-hued golf umbrella that might suit Hagrid fine. From caesian at yahoo.com Mon May 3 01:11:35 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 01:11:35 -0000 Subject: Imposter!Moody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97555 "Susan" wrote: > I've read lost of posts re: Imposter!Moody, but so far no one seems > to be talking about exactly what he taught those kids. IMHO, I > thought he was a good teacher! He taught those kids a lot of > practical stuff, dangerous or not. I realize Imposter!Moody had to > keep HP alive til he could be delivered to LV, but would you really > want your enemy to be knowledgeable and prepared to fight dark > magic? I mean, why teach Harry (and the other kids) to resist > Imperio curses? Why didn't Imposter!Moody just run around > anonymously saving/protecting Harry whenever he was in danger, > similar to Snape trying to help Harry stay on his broom in SS? And > why teach ALL the kids that stuff? If Imposter!Moody wants LV to > come back at full strength, obviously (presumably) to take over the > WW, then why teach the younger generations to resist his evil > influence? > > K, another point. I really thought I!M seemed quite likable, Caesian replies: I have had the same feelings - and Imposter!Moody seems an even greater enigma now than when he was first revealed. The truth is that I liked Imposter!Moody too. His gentle aside with Neville - even if motivated by an evil intent, seemed like such responsive timing. His comments about Harry and a career as an auror seemed to at least enter into the void of adult guidance towards Harry. And most of all, his insistence that Harry throw off the Imperious Curse. All of those seemed so oddly out of character when his real character was revealed. And frankly, the real Alistor Moody seems a bit less thoughtful and sweet than Barty Jr's impersonation as we have seen him so far. Now I know that he was, first off, impersonating Alistor Moody - and so some competence was required. And he was also personally held under Imperio for so many years that he is certain to have a personal motivation for teaching this - and Harry did show an initial apptitude - but to teach the ability to resist Imperio to Harry Potter?! Seemed like his lesson later wiped the smile off LV's face. His comments about Aurors, and his father's comments about his 12 NEWTS made me wonder if he himself was an Auror for a time. I find myself imagining implausible double-crosses. Can Veritaserum work on someone who is (re-)Imperio'd, I wonder? Why is Snape's Veritaserum and Snape's reflection in the foe glass mentioned (I know, many theories for that). I can't imagine another good reason for Barty Crouch Jr. to have attacked and imprisoned the real Moody, and yet I feel we have missed a goodly portion of the story. I am reminded of how Hagrid got the acromantula egg when he was only a boy - a recent orphan and half-giant to boot. A "traveler" gave it to him. Considering how Hagrid was manipulated with the Dragon's Egg in PS/SS - it makes me wonder. Doesn't it make sense to imagine that Tom Riddle arranged this cover for his own monster - the Basilisk - in advance. And it makes me wonder whether Barty Jr. was an elaborate cover for something else. It's completely convoluted and absurd, I know - but I still womder if young Master Barty was innocent. Maybe that's the point. Caesian From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 01:34:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 01:34:27 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97556 Eloise (I think) wrote: The QWC dates from 1473, long before the creation of the Republic of Ireland, so it would be far from surprising if the Irish team were similarly drawn from both sides of the border. I go along with Steve's theory that Quidditch teams are not necessarily governed by modern political boundaries. Carol: First, my apologies if I've misattributed the post (or parts of it). It was hard to tell where Geoff's thoughts ended and Eloise's began. I think the date 1473 is important here. It predates Protestantism and consequently any religio-political division among the Irish, who had intermarried with the Normans who attempted to establish feudal control there in the twelfth century and were probably more or less united against the sporadic attempts by the Plantagenets and their descendants to control, if not exactly conquer, Ireland. It was not until 1541 that Henry VIII declared himself King (not Lord, like his predecessors) of Ireland and head of the Church of Ireland (a branch of the Church of England), paving the way for conflict between English and Irish, Protestants and Catholics, for centuries to come. (I'm no fan of the Tudors, in case you can't tell.) By that time, the WW was already effectively alienated from the Muggle world, whose political/religious divisions would not have been reflected either in the organization of the Quidditch teams or the British MoM, which as far as we can tell governs the British Isle (Great Britain and all of Ireland) as a unit. (Whether there's an International MoM, I don't know.) The point of my post, in case anyone is wondering, is that despite Fudge's occasional interactions with the Muggle Prime Minister (necessary to keep the WW hidden from the Muggles), postmedieval Muggle politics, including the present political geography of Ireland and the United Kingdom, are IMO of no concern whatever to the WW. As a tangentially related afterthought, the Irish National team we see in GoF may be a sort of all-star team composed of the best players from such local teams as the Ballycastle Bats or Kenmore Kestrels from both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, except that unlike American all-star baseball teams, it apparently operates as a permanent unit (as evidenced by the seamless interaction of the chasers, whose teamwork suggests extensive experience working together). Maybe the very best players can go there directly without "working their way up through the minors," to borrow an American expression. Krum, for example, made the Bulgarian national team while he was still in school and Charlie Weasley, according to McGonagall, "could have played for England," but I'm assuming their ability is exceptional. Carol, with apologies for oversimplifying the complicated relations between England and Ireland over the centuries, but 1473 suggested the Yorkists and Lancastrians and this post developed from there. . . . From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 01:58:08 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 01:58:08 -0000 Subject: Arranged wizard marriages? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97557 Jim Ferer wrote: P.S. Ffred mentioned that Sirius can't help arrange a marriage, being dead; he's forgetting Moaning Myrtle. Seeing who Sirius *might* have picked might have been downright alarming and a lot of fun to see. I (Carol) brilliantly replied: Am I missing something here? Moaning Myrtle as a prospective wife for Sirius in an arranged marriage had they both lived? First, she was a Muggle-born (which is why the Basilisk chose her as a victim, or Riddle ordered it to kill her) and would be exactly the wife his parents *wouldn't* have chosen for him, and second, she was a contemporary of Tom, not of Sirius, and died before he was born. But I could just be misreading your postscript. . . . Jim responded: Tongue in cheek alert! *Sirius* arranging a marriage for *Harry* - Myrte does have a 'thing' for Harry, after all. And Sirius, being dead, has few options in the cupid department. Don't take me seriously here. Carol again: Sorry! I thought you meant Myrtle as a prospective wife for Sirius in a marriage arranged by his parents when he was in his early teens (though as a boy he seems to think himself too good for any girl, Muggle-born or otherwise, in contrast to James, who constantly shows off for Lily--and maybe for the girls in general). I didn't realize you meant a marriage between Harry and Myrtle arranged by Sirius, alive or dead--I would have known you were joking then. Carol, with apologies for taking you "Siriusly" From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Mon May 3 02:12:27 2004 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 22:12:27 EDT Subject: Moaning Myrtle's death Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arranged wizard marriages? Message-ID: <26.4821e84d.2dc7048b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97558 In a message dated 5/2/2004 7:00:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: I (Carol) brilliantly replied: Am I missing something here? Moaning Myrtle{ {as a prospective wife for Sirius in an arranged marriage had they both lived? First, she}} was a Muggle-born (which is why the Basilisk chose her as a victim, or Riddle ordered it to kill her) . I'd have to disagree with you here. We know Mrytle was a muggle-born from Draco, however I don't think the Basilisk killing her is any proof of what kind of blood she had considering the circumstances in which she died. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Mon May 3 02:19:31 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 02:19:31 -0000 Subject: Good Slytherins was Dumbledore's Army (DA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97559 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote: > I can't help thinking that the Good Slytherin is going to be Draco > Malfoy. > > I only have two real pieces of evidence to support this theory, and > they're flimsy. > > One, there is an overwhelming "things are not as they seem" theme and > Draco and the Malfoys have so far been very much as they seem. > > Two, the school motto means "Never wake a sleeping dragon" or > something along those lines, and Draco means dragon. > > In addition, it is entirely too easy to come up with plausible ways > for it to happen. > > Voldemort is as nasty to his followers as he is to his enemies, he > could discard Lucius in a manner that alienates Draco. > > Draco could be disillusioned by something he sees his father do. > > Narcissa could secretly despise the whole pureblood thing and take > advantage of the fact that Lucius is in prison to extricate Draco > from that culture. Please forgive me for responding to myself and for beating a horse beyond death. We know there is a strong "asking for help" theme. Dumbledore comes out and says that help will always be given...to those who ask for it. The spinning room in the Ministry of Magic shows Harry the way out when he asks for it. Dobby knows where to practice DADA when he's asked about it. Harry never would have had to worry about the second task if he'd asked about it. And, of course, there's the "Its our choices that make us what we are" theme. And, of course, Harry has a power that Voldemort doesn't understand that will enable Harry to defeat him and it is assume to be love. Doesn't it all point to a climactic situation where Harry either has to ask for help or is asked for help from/by someone he can't stand. I think what makes the most sense is for Draco to be in some sort of trouble where he needs Harry's help but Harry either doesn't know, doesn't understand, or just plain refuses to help unless Draco asks him. Draco does ask, taking a step toward house unity by surrendering some of his arrogance and showing some vulnerability. Harry helps him perhaps over the protests of other Gryffindors, perhaps needing to ask Snape's help in the process and in doing so demonstrates love or compassion and taking a step toward house unity. From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon May 3 02:21:25 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 02:21:25 -0000 Subject: Good Slytherins was Dumbledore's Army (DA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" > > > I can't help thinking that the Good Slytherin is going to be Draco > Malfoy. > > I only have two real pieces of evidence to support this theory, and > they're flimsy. > > One, there is an overwhelming "things are not as they seem" theme and > Draco and the Malfoys have so far been very much as they seem. > > Two, the school motto means "Never wake a sleeping dragon" or > something along those lines, and Draco means dragon. Marianne: Well, JKR does have a habit of tossing in what seem to be throw-away lines or needless bits of info, only to have them pop up later with a great deal of significance. So, I can understand the idea of the idea of the Hogwarts motto being a clue to a suddenly awakened Draco. And, maybe you're right. We don't really know much about Narcissa, and just because our only view of her at the Quidditch World Cup is painted in a negative fashion does not mean it's truly representative of how she thinks and feels. There have been some recent discussions tossing around the idea of arranged marriages in the wizard world. We all assume that the Malfoys are a perfectly happy, pureblood, we're-oh-so-much-better- than-the-rest-of-the-world couple. But, maybe we assume too much. Maybe Narcissa was pressured into marrying Lucius in order to unite two old and powerful pureblood families. Maybe she is working to subtly undermine Lucius. But, if so, (and I personally think it's still a big IF), she doesn't seem to be making much headway. IMHO, Draco seems quite content to follow his father's guidance. I've seen no evidence that Draco has any doubts about whatever pure-blood crap his father (or parents) have fed him. And while I know that JKR sometimes sets up a character or situation to appear to be set in a certain way, only to pull the rug out from under those assumptions, she have to do some really fancy footwork to pull off "Good Slytherin Draco." Gregory Lynn > In addition, it is entirely too easy to come up with plausible ways > for it to happen. > > Voldemort is as nasty to his followers as he is to his enemies, he > could discard Lucius in a manner that alienates Draco. Marianne: As an aside to the topic, I've always wondered why the followers of any Evil Overlord lap this stuff up. Would any of them who have half a brain want to get their jollies or riches or power at the price of being subserivant to someone who would show absolutely no mercy to them, even if they made an honest mistake about something? Gregory Lynn: > Draco could be disillusioned by something he sees his father do. Marianne: Draco is more than happy to be a wand-wielding member of Umbridge's Inquisitorial Squad. And, he's not at all happy about Daddy being sent to Azkaban at the end of OoP. I see him at this point in the series as someone who's all fired up on behalf of his father. And, frankly, I can't see that anything Lucius could do, including killing someone, that Draco couldn't rationalise to himself as a necessary action. Gregory Lynn: > Narcissa could secretly despise the whole pureblood thing and take > advantage of the fact that Lucius is in prison to extricate Draco > from that culture. Marianne: This would be an interesting twist. Our picture of Narcissa has not been particularly flattering, but this might be a case of JKR throwing us yet another curve. The only quibble I have is that Narcissa has never been known to have any issues with the pureblood thing, not in the way that Andromeda, Alphard and Sirius have had. There has been no hint of her receiving any family censure for her views. Which is not to say that she doesn't have similar views to the three Black sheep. Maybe she is a wild card in the sense that she was never outspoken in the past because she was caught between Andromeda and Bellatrix and tried to placate both sides. Narcissa may have been trapped between her sisters, seeing the positive points in both of her sisters' viewpoints, and not wanting to make a decision that would inevitably alienate one sister or the other. Marianne, who is more than happy that her own dysfunctional family seems positively Cleaver-esque compared to the Blacks The thought of having Bellatrix as a close relative makes me nauseous. From pt4ever at yahoo.com Mon May 3 02:30:30 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 02:30:30 -0000 Subject: Could Ron get more OWLs than Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97561 Hi all - I have a HP fanfic up on FA.org and FF.net (http://www.fanfiction.net/~joanna47), and in chapter one of my fic I have Ron getting 8 OWLs whereas Harry gets 7. Someone posted the following review at FF.net: "Stopped reading when I saw Ron got more owls that Harry. That's pretty much impossible. Nice try with the story it looked good." Here's the reply that I e-mailed to this reviewer: "I don't think it's impossible for Ron to get more OWLs than Harry. After all, Ron sat the entire History of Magic exam - Harry did not. In Goblet of Fire, Ron tells his mother about his History of Magic exam, "I forgot the some of the names of the rebel goblins, so I made some up... it wasn't hard, they're all called Uric the Unclean or something similar." I think that Ron picks up more in History of Magic than he realizes and thus was able to pass the OWL. I also believe (as I stated in the story), that Ron is smarter than he gives himself credit for. I don't think Dumbledore would have made him a prefect if his grades were terrible (I imagine Dean or Seamus would have been made prefect instead). Also, if you'll notice, while Ron got one more OWL than Harry, Harry's overall *scores* were better than Ron's. For example - who would you say was the better student - someone who got 8 "Acceptable" OWLs or someone with six "Outstanding" OWLs? This is why, in my fic, Ron got one more OWL than Harry. I hope you'll change your mind about reading the rest of the story." So what do you guys think? Is it possible for Ron to get more OWLs than Harry, or is this situation totally improbable? What are YOUR predictions for the Trio's individal OWL scores? (With the exception of Hermione... I think we all know what hers will be!) :) - JoAnna From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 3 03:13:52 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 03:13:52 -0000 Subject: Prophecy and Choice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97562 Mo wrote: > I think the love LV might find from HP is the fact that HP will > forgive him and that will be too much for LV to bear. > Perhaps it's just the mood I find myself in this evening, and perhaps someone could convince me, but at least right now I **cannot** imagine Harry forgiving LV. Anybody else care to weigh in on this possibility? Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 03:23:18 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 03:23:18 -0000 Subject: Prophecy and Choice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Perhaps it's just the mood I find myself in this evening, and > perhaps someone could convince me, but at least right now I > **cannot** imagine Harry forgiving LV. > > Anybody else care to weigh in on this possibility? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Susan, I am in the same mood today and most of the days. :o) Nevertheless, bear with me for a minute. It is a strong possibility that Harry will defeat Voldie with the force, which Dark Lord does not know anything about, right? So, suppose the said power is indeed Love and say "same but in essence divided" are Voldie and Tom. What if Harry somehow will force Tom remember the power of Love? I am not saying that Harry will love and forgive him (Harry is definitely not a Saint and to forgive the murder of his parents will be close to impossible, IMO), maybe Tom will remember that his mother loved him , something like that? What Tom will do after that? Your guess is as good as mine. Alla From msmerymac at yahoo.com Mon May 3 00:05:22 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (MsMeryMac@yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 17:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's in it for Snape: A motive (now, summer assignments) Message-ID: <20040503000522.55122.qmail@web41408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97564 Potioncat: > I remember being surprised there had already > been assignments. Although that's the way I understood > it. I assumed the list of books included a reading > list as well. In later books it's stated very clearly > that there are homework assignments over the summer > break. Alla: > Could you please, please provide a quote? I am under very stron > assumption that there were no assignments yet before they started > Hogwarts. Why would it be? I would say that at least Muggle-born > children are not expected to know anything about magic yet. Luckie: Sorry, Alla, no quote, but I would expect that books designed for first year students would be very basic. Also, students would know they are not allowed to practice magic outside of Hogwarts (wizard parents know that, and Rowling said that special messangers are sent to muggle households to explain about Hogwarts) so they would certainly *only* be reading. The summer before my freshman year of high school (and every summer after) I received a list of four books that had to be read before the first day of class. (For those not from the US, this would be American 9th grade, or about 14 years old.)I went to a private school that was not an extension of my grade school, so I read these books before receiving any kind of instruction or before meeting any teachers, really. However, my senior (last) year, we had to read a book by Faulkner that many students didn't really get, so we read it again in class, under the guidence of our teacher. I would imagine a similar situation at Hogwarts. Students could read about potion ingredients, but may not actually take in all the knowledge until taught by another or used in a practical situation. Everyone learns differently. Hermione appears to be able to learn something by reading, whereas Harry is a more practical learner and learns by doing. Luckie From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 03:35:15 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 03:35:15 -0000 Subject: What's in it for Snape: A motive (now, summer assignments) In-Reply-To: <20040503000522.55122.qmail@web41408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97565 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "MsMeryMac at y..." <> > Sorry, Alla, no quote, but I would expect that books designed for > first year students would be very basic. Also, students would know > they are not allowed to practice magic outside of Hogwarts (wizard > parents know that, and Rowling said that special messangers are > sent > to muggle households to explain about Hogwarts) so they would > certainly *only* be reading. The summer before my freshman year of > high school (and every summer after) I received a list of four > books > that had to be read before the first day of class. (For those not > from the US, this would be American 9th grade, or about 14 years > old.)I went to a private school that was not an extension of my > grade school, so I read these books before receiving any kind of > instruction or before meeting any teachers, really. However, my > senior (last) year, we had to read a book by Faulkner that many > students didn't really get, so we read it again in class, under the > guidence of our teacher. > > I would imagine a similar situation at Hogwarts. Students could > read > about potion ingredients, but may not actually take in all the > knowledge until taught by another or used in a practical situation. > Everyone learns differently. Hermione appears to be able to learn > something by reading, whereas Harry is a more practical learner and > learns by doing. > > Luckie Well, I disagree. No matter how basic the books are, they are about magic. Something which many muggle-borns kids supposedly heard nothing about before they got a letter. Can I also refer you to potioncat's message 99537, which I agree with? Harry was curious enough to look at the books. I cannot imagine him not mention to the readers anything about assignments to be done. We do read about the summer essays in the next books though. Alla From casieloo at bway.net Mon May 3 02:26:07 2004 From: casieloo at bway.net (leaverish) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 02:26:07 -0000 Subject: Dates and calendars in Potterverse In-Reply-To: <4094CE93.1364.3567CE47@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97566 Tammy wrote: > How do you expect to reconcile literary astronomical > indicators to real world dates when, for five years > now, September first has been a Sunday? Doesn't that > just scream out that JKR is not using a real world > calendar? Sorry, maybe I'm missing something, and this must have been said before, but how can there be a question regarding the real date of the happenings in the books? We have explicit info on this. In CoS nearly headless Nick has his 500th death day, and we're told he was killed in 1492. Ergo, CoS happens in 1992. Leaverish From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 03:47:58 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 03:47:58 -0000 Subject: DD: an appreciation plus Lupin - again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97567 > Jetamors wrote: > OTOH, there's no particular > reason to believe he [Lupin] was there. There could've been alarms on the house that went off, or James or Lily could have sent up a quick > flare, or whatever caused the house to fall apart could have been the > signal, or James and Lily may have had charms put on their bodies > that would locate their corpses when they were dead. Carol: Or Dumbledore, who had known where they were before the spell was placed but had fogotten once Peter had been made Secret Keeper suddenly remembered the address again--and knew the spell had been broken. He would have sent Hagrid immediately to find out what had happened, rescue Harry if he was still alive, and prevent Sirius from claiming him as his godfather. (Presumably Hagrid wasn't told that Sirius was the supposed Secret Keeper, or he would never have borrowed "Sirius his bike" or tried to comfort him.) Sirius would have found out in the same way as Dumbledore, suddenly remembering the address that had been wiped from his memory. As for Lupin, either he hadn't been told before the Fidelius Charm was placed, or he was too grief-stricken to anticipate Sirius's next move, or despite the calendar, which says the full moon fell on October 13 that year, he was in werewolf mode. Carol, blushing because she just realized that her earlier post on Lupin referred to the full moon for October 19*91*--ten years after Godric's Hollow. (No doubt the blunder has been pointed out to me but I haven't caught up on posting.) Well, at least I can spell "canon" correctly. :-0 From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon May 3 04:08:51 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 04:08:51 -0000 Subject: FILK: Kind Neville Gives Important Information Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97568 >From H.M.S Dumbledore, my PS/SS musical-in-progress Kind Neville Gives Important Information (PS/SS, Chap. 13) To the tune of Kind Captain, I've Important Information from Gilbert and Sullivan's H.M.S. Pinafore Text and MIDI at: http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/pinafore/web_opera/pn17.html Dedicated to Gail B. NOTE: "Philosopher" is here pronounced PHIL-o-SOPH-er (accents on first and third rather than on the second syllable) THE SCENE: Gryffindor Common Room. Thanks to a timely Chocolate Frog card delivered by Neville, THE TRIO discover the identity of Nicholas Flamel HARRY (to Hermione) Kind Neville gives important information, Sing hey, the bossy Know-It-All you are, About a certain Dumble consultation, Sing hey, it's Nicky Flamel on his card. TRIO: The tricky Nicky Flamel The tricky Nicky Flamel The tricky Nicky Flamel on the card. HERMIONE Brave Harry, through an ancient text I'm looking Sing hey, you headstrong Seeker who has flown; It seems the thing that Nicky was researching Was, hey, the Philosopher's famous stone TRIO: The softly Philosophic The softly Philosophic The softly Philosophic famous stone RON Smart Hermy, this old volume is a-stating Sing hey, the Stone eternal life supplies It very may well be that Snape is waiting To be a Sevvy Snape who cannot die TRIO An ever-clever Sever An ever-clever Sever An ever-clever Severus who cannot die Good Fluffy, he that magic stone is guarding, Sing hey, the six-eyed watchdog stands alert The progress of the thief he is retarding And that's how Snapey's skinny leg got hurt The thin & skinny Snapey The thin & skinny Snapey The thin & skinny Snapey's leg got hurt - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 04:20:28 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 04:20:28 -0000 Subject: The night of Godric's Hollow--quick correction (Was: DD: an appreciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97569 I wrote: > Or Dumbledore, who had known where they were before the spell was > placed but had fogotten once Peter had been made Secret Keeper > suddenly remembered the address again--and knew the spell had been > broken. He would have sent Hagrid immediately to find out what had > happened, rescue Harry if he was still alive, and prevent Sirius from > claiming him as his godfather. (Presumably Hagrid wasn't told that > Sirius was the supposed Secret Keeper, or he would never have borrowed > "Sirius his bike" or tried to comfort him.) Sirius would have found > out in the same way as Dumbledore, suddenly remembering the address > that had been wiped from his memory. As for Lupin, either he hadn't > been told before the Fidelius Charm was placed, or he was too > grief-stricken to anticipate Sirius's next move, or despite the > calendar, which says the full moon fell on October 13 that year, he > was in werewolf mode. > > Carol, blushing because she just realized that her earlier post on > Lupin referred to the full moon for October 19*91*--ten years after > Godric's Hollow. (No doubt the blunder has been pointed out to me but > I haven't caught up on posting.) Well, at least I can spell "canon" > correctly. :-0 Carol again: Another quick correction before someone comments on this message. Sirius, as another poster pointed, already knew the Secret. I think he was present when Peter was made Secret Keeper and if he "forgot" when the charm was cast, was quickly told again by Peter, who wanted to avoid suspicion. Lupin, OTOH, probably wasn't told either before or after the charm was placed, which is why (unless the conspiracy theorists are correct), he didn't show up. Eitherthat or my alternate reasons still apply. C. From caesian at yahoo.com Mon May 3 04:25:54 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 04:25:54 -0000 Subject: SHIP: One more point... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97570 Cory wrote: > My first post on this forum. Please be gentle. :) > > > The common sentiment that I have seen expressed by the non-R/H camp > is that, while it is clear that Ron likes Hermione, there is no > evidence that she has feelings for him. But there is at least one (I > think) solid piece of evidence to that effect. In Chapter 21 of > OotP, Ron gets jealous when he sees Hermione writing her long letter > to Krum right in front of him in the common room. > What did Hermione mean by "Harry, you're worse than Ron?" Isn't she > basically telling us that she had been trying to make Ron jealous > when she wrote the long letter to Krum in front of him? Or is there > another meaning that I am overlooking? > > --Cory Caesian responds (please excuse my formatting - [blushing] this was sent back for re- snipping!, I'm new too)> > Hi Cory, > > Nice first post. I've also been reading the shipping posts with interest, but remain firmly landlocked. I must be as bad as Harry and Ron, because it hadn't even occured to me that Hermione might be *trying* to make Ron jealous (although Victor Krum the ideal Yule Ball date - if this was her purpose - did strike me). Certainly she's succeeding, whether intentional or not, as even Harry has noticed. That's a nice point. I'll weigh in late with one additional point too - one that's been bugging me. Often times, the H/H shipper (no doubt grasping for those canon straws - just gently teasing now, you can admit it) will say - but Ron and Hermione are always bickering!! They'll never last because they always fight. Now, we know that that is not true. A couple can be a pair of matching book ends and never disagree, but the couple who keeps their neighbor awake with high volume arguments about tuna in oil vs. tuna in water can have a relationship that is just as satisfying and long-lasting. I happen to know this is more than just common sense - it's a scientific finding with very strong supporting evidence - collected over the last 20 years by a research psychologist at the university at which I work, among others. (Since I'm not here to advertise or endorse his books I won't say who, but if you want to look it up - email me.) A bit of disagreement makes for more fun, as we all know on this posting board. And if you don't believe me - take Voldemort's word for it. Well, not him exactly, but I found this on Peter's Evil Overlord List: (http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html) > > The Top 100 Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord > # 1. My Legions of Terror will have helmets with clear plexiglass visors, not face- concealing ones. ... # 6. I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them. ... #98. If an attractive young couple enters my realm, I will carefully monitor their activities. If I find they are happy and affectionate, I will ignore them. However if circumstance have forced them together against their will and they spend all their time bickering and criticizing each other except during the intermittent occasions when they are saving each others' lives at which point there are hints of sexual tension, I will immediately order their execution. good thing Voldy's not checking the manual. Caesian From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon May 3 04:37:04 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 04:37:04 -0000 Subject: Could Ron get more OWLs than Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97571 Joanna said: > So what do you guys think? Is it possible for Ron to get more OWLs > than Harry, or is this situation totally improbable? What are YOUR > predictions for the Trio's individal OWL scores? (With the > exception of Hermione... I think we all know what hers will be!) :) I think your answers are well-reasoned. I think we can plan on Hermione getting eleven OWLs (no Divination), with probably a good proportion being Outstandings. Ron won't get OWLs in Muggle Studies, Ancient Runes or Arithmancy, since neither he nor Harry took them. But he'll probably get at least Acceptable in Potions (really--have we ever seen him have a problem in the class, for all that he hates Snape?), Astronomy (though how they'll handle the fact that everyone stopped working twenty minutes before the end, I have no idea), History, Charms, Care of Magical Creatures, Transfiguration and Herbology. I personally expect Ron to get Excellents or Outstandings in DADA (duh) and... wait for it... Divination. So that would be, actually, nine. I think the only one he might really bomb on would be Transfigurations. Harry is certain to get an Outstanding in DADA. I doubt he'll pass Divination or (obviously) History--though we don't know whether the partial answers he gave mightn't have been enough for a passing grade. I strongly suspect he'll get either Acceptables or Excellents in Charms, Herbology, Care of Magical Creatures, and (possibly) Astronomy. I remember that he did particularly well in Transfiguration--I assume he got an Excellent or Outstanding there. The one I'm going to go out on a limb for is Potions. I assume he gets an Outstanding here--but only because JKR has set it up that Harry wants to be an Auror and can't if he doesn't get into NEWT-level Potions. (I also assume that Neville will be there too, but only because, well, what would Potions be without Neville?) So that's seven OWLs, with two to four Outstandings. I think your analysis, then, was dead on. But I'm sure Ms. Rowling has some surprises up her sleeve for us.... Antosha, who wishes he'd done better on his Charms OWLs, so that he could make all of the unfinished work he should be getting to go away..... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 04:46:12 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 04:46:12 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97572 Lita Beck wrote: If Ireland was a part of Wizarding Britain, it makes sense that it would field its own team (as would Wales, Scotland, etc.), especially since I seem to remember a mention (by Fred or George?) of how the English team lost on its way to the Quidditch World Cup. I seriously doubt that the English team is the only team to come from Wizarding Britain. As a soccer fan, it just wouldn't make sense to me. :) Alshain responded: It isn't. "I wish England had got through, though."[said Charlie.]"That was embarrassing, that was.[---]Went down to Transylvania, three hundred and ninety to ten.[...] Shocking performance. And Wales lost to Uganda, and Scotland were slaughtered by Luxemburg." Though we don't know about Northern Ireland, the British isles field four teams at least. Carol: That's not counting numerous local teams, for example the Wimborne Wasps, for whom Ludo Bagman was a beater, IIRC the position correctly. (I definitely remember the black and yellow Quidditch robes and the bludgers to the head!) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 05:02:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 05:02:52 -0000 Subject: DD/MM canon? (was Re: Dumbledore/Hermes + Minerva) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97573 Potioncat wrote: "(oh, and a nice nursery for Severus's > twins...)" Jim responded: He's got twins? Seeing the teachers' kids would be fun to see, wouldn't it? You know that if it happened Harry would save Snape's children and create all new complexities.. Potioncat again: :-)The twins comes from a joke (At least I took it to be a joke, one never knows.) that JKR made concerning Snape. He's up at night because he has twins that keep him awake or he's grumpy for that reason...I don't remember the actual phrase. Carol jumps in: I know the interview you're referring to, and I think JKR's joking remark refers to the emcee or host or whatever the term is who is reading the question from the audience. I think he's the one who refers to Snape as "Snap" and JKR laughingly excuses his blunder on the grounds that his twins are keeping him up at night. Something along those lines, but the twins aren't Snape's--unfortunately for our speculations about his private life, if any. If I weren't about 400 posts behind, I'd look up the link for you. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 05:15:21 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 05:15:21 -0000 Subject: Where do teachers live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97574 > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > That lack of attention to personal hygiene activities by JKR is one > of the more bizarre things about the books, imho. I mean, they're > already hundreds & hundreds of pages long, and adding in every > episode of applying deodorant or running in for a pitstop would only > lengthen them, but still. NEVER a mention of a shower after > Quidditch practice or brushing teeth before bed or a girl brushing > out her freshly-shampooed hair? I don't get it. Kinda makes my skin (& teeth) crawl at times. Carol: Well, we do have Wood standing in the shower trying to drown himself after winning a Quidditch match! But still, you'd think Ron would have said something about the Prefect's bathroom by now. Or Hermione, if it's co-ed. Or maybe she thinks that the female prefects have a nice bathroom but the male one have to use the regular boys' showers? At least she seems to have washed her hair before the Yule Ball--and afterwards, to get sleeking potion (whatever it was called) out of her hair. I'll bet she brushes her teeth, too, being a girl, a Muggle-born, and the daughter of two dentists. But the boys? Maybe we don't want to know! Carol, who wonders why Sirius didn't have at least a foot-long beard after twelve years in Azkaban From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 05:32:41 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 05:32:41 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97575 Geoff wrote: > I haven't found any canon to support the view that the Final is > being held in Scotland. Anyone like to show me otherwise? I am > prepared to stand corrected if necessary :-( Carol: How about a small piece of evidence suggesting that it *isn't* in Scotland: the Muggle Mr. Roberts' surprise that one of the men at the campground is wearing a kilt? And Roberts doesn't sound very Scottish, though I suppose you don't have to be Scottish to live in Scotland. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 06:13:39 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 06:13:39 -0000 Subject: Where do teachers live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Potioncat: " What gets me is whether they [the students] wear Muggle > type clothing under the robes (as in the movies) or whether the robes > are their clothes.(as in the Pensieve scene.)" > > The Muggle-borns wear Muggle clothes under the robes almost for sure, > and the wizard borns often don't, is my guess. I think that it's > little things like this and big things too that offend the > "purebloods" as they watch Muggle culture influence wizard culture. Carol: That's would be my guess, too, except that IIRC the boys ask Hermione to leave so they can change to their robes in the first Hogwarts Express scene in SS/PS, so it sounds as if they intend to take off the Muggle clothes. I'm guessing that even the pureblood students probably wear Muggle clothes for the trip to and from the Hogwarts Express but not the rest of the time--except for shoes, socks, and underwear. The Muggle-borns probably follow their example after a while--maybe when they see the lousy job the House Elves have done laundering their Muggle clothes. ;-) Some of the older purebloods apparently skip even the underwear: Remember old Archie at the Tri-Wizard tournament who won't exchange his flowered nightgown for a pair of Muggle trousers because he "likes a nice breeze around his privates"? I also don't think that the robes are open at the front as they're depicted in the American editions. I think they're more like a graduation gown that you pull over your head, which explains how Mr. Weasley could put his on back-to-front and need help getting it on right. Also, if the robes were open, everybody present would have been able to see Harry's mismatched socks at the Yule Ball and Crouch!Moody wouldn't have bothered to comment on them, and the girls would have wanted to wear fancy gowns under their dress robes, but we don't hear any mention of it. No school uniforms, either; just plain black robes for everyday wear. Carol, who dislikes the overuse of Muggle clothes in the upcoming PoA film and wonders why JKR okayed it From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 06:37:25 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 06:37:25 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - International vs National In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97577 Steve (bboy_mn) wrote: Well, we could reopen the old argument about how big the British wizard world really is. Some say a few thousand, others, like myself, say a few hundred thousand. Carol responds: For starters, we can look at the number of people who attended the World Quidditch Cup (IIRC, about a hundred thousand--I know someone will dutifully correct me but I know it was a very large number.) Presumably most of them were English and Irish, with a largish Bulgarian contingent (and about a dozen people from Beauxbatons.) BTW, I think the large size of the audience is very much at odds with what appears to be the number of students at Hogwarts, especially since the student population includes near-morons like Crabbe and Goyle. I don't think the figures can be reconciled or explained away by saying that some British wizard kids don't attend Hogwarts. that doesn't fit what we know of Dumbledore's philosophy--or Helga Hufflepuff's, which is probably Professor Sprout's, too. Steve (b-boy) wrote: So, do British sports stadiums have concession at their games; beer, hot dogs, ice cream, peanuts, soft drinks, hot drinks, cheeze nachos, vinegar flavored crips? Carol: If you mean British Quidditch stadiums, I'll bet the same vendors who sold programs, omnioculars, and souvenir shamrocks before the game were selling food and drinks during the game. Either they didn't enter the box where the Weasleys, Harry, and Hermione were or JKR didn't bother to report them because Harry's attention was elsewhere, but I can't imagine them not trying to make money from such a large group of spectators. Carol From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 3 06:53:27 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 06:53:27 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Express In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97578 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jemnilla28" wrote: > ...edited... > > Is there any way that students are required to ride the train because > there is some type of magic done to them while on their way to school? > (I mean, one that kind of "debriefs" the kids from the "real" > world...) Before you flame me, please consider my reasons why. > > ...edited... > > Just a thought.. > > Jemnilla bboy_mn: Well, we are deeply into the relm of speculation, so I can't say wrong or right. My speculation is that you have the right idea but for the wrong reason. First of all, I'm sure it is a long standing tradition like the boat ride across the lake for first years. It has no truly utilitarian function, but at the same time does serve a purpose. I think, indeed, the train trip allows student to re-focus themselves, to forget about family and holiday fun, and start focusing on school again. So, in that sense, there is a de-briefing, a transition in the student's mental state, but I don't necessarily believe that is a forced magical transition. It just gives them time to put the summer behind them and concentrate on school again. As far as students from say Scotland having to travel south to London only to turn around and go back to Scotland again on the Hogwart's Express, I don't see that as a problem. All it really requires is about 10 seconds of time and a pinch of Floo Powered. Travel is much earier in the Wizard World than the Muggle world; far simpler that trains, plane, and automobiles. The trip to London, in most cases takes second, while oddly the return trip by train takes hours because the return trip mimics muggle transportation. Because of this, I don't see the trip to London as being a hardship on anyone. And it provides the kids with this de-briefing or transition period where they settle down from their summer fun, get re-aquainted, and focus their minds on school. So, I agree with the de-briefing, but for different reasons. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 3 07:01:17 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 07:01:17 -0000 Subject: Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97579 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sea Change" wrote: Sea Change: > > I thought that Hagrid's wand was exceptionally large and long, but > can't find the canon for it. Would it fit in one of those flimsy > fold-up brollies? Geoff: He might have a golf umbrella.... Sea change: > I can remember but not quote several instances in which Hagrid is > described as wet or snow-covered, which implies that the umbrella > isn't very functional for Hagrid. Is an umbrella of any use in snow? > (reveals ignorance of someone born and raised in coastal California) Geoff: Depends on the brolly.... a golf umbrella would be the best. They can give a lot of protection. It also depends on the wind. If the wind really gets behind the snow and drives it hard so that it's coming at you near to the horizontal, many umbrellas can't cope. From caesian at yahoo.com Mon May 3 07:31:55 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 07:31:55 -0000 Subject: Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97580 > Sea Change: > > > > I thought that Hagrid's wand was exceptionally large and long, but > > can't find the canon for it. Would it fit in one of those flimsy > > fold-up brollies? > > > I can remember but not quote several instances in which Hagrid is > > described as wet or snow-covered, which implies that the umbrella > > isn't very functional for Hagrid. Is an umbrella of any use in > snow? > > (reveals ignorance of someone born and raised in coastal California) Caesian's 50 pence: Mr. Ollivander greets Hagrid in PS/SS - and recalls Hagrid's wand was 16 inches, Oak, rather bendy - good wand, that. But I suppose they snapped it in half when you were expelled (suddenly stern). Hagrid replies, Yes sir, yes they did - I still have the pieces though (last bit added brightly). But you don't use them! (Mr. O). No sir, no (H - clutching pink umbrella rather tightly) Mr O. - hmmmm. It is a long standing pet-peeve of mine that any wizard or witch is wet, cold or otherwise influenced by the elements. Bubble head charms? Impervious? Harry nearly freezing to his broom in the rain just because they haven't figured out how to imperturb their cloaks? Move over Freg and George, I could be a galleonaire with that bright idea. Caesian - who hails from the land of Gortex From caesian at yahoo.com Mon May 3 07:34:09 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 07:34:09 -0000 Subject: Kreacher, Buckbeak and Harry's Brain Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97582 I've looked at posts that have touched on this topic, but I still have some= questions in need of informed opinions. I've been wondering about the nature of this me= ntal link between Harry and LV - and the timing of Kreacher's injury to Buckbeak. I've noticed that others have also wondered how Kreacher knew when to injur= e Beaky (for example Carol, post 91202, Shirley, Annemehr and grannygoodwitch around # 8= 3866 ? that was Halloween, BTW). I can come up with a few scenarios, in order of = parsimony: 1) LV knew exactly when Harry would have the vision, because LV is in total= control of this, it was a long-standing plan, and the Malfoy's informed Kreacher of the prec= ise date and time during one of his (at least 2) absences from Grim-old-place. I suppose this is possible. It was my impression that LV could supplant fe= elings and images into Harry's mind when it was most vulnerable, such as when he was a= sleep. But, it seems clear that LV has limited control over this ? and was repeatedly t= hwarted by firecrackers, Ron's snoring, (LV, in high pitched voice: "doh!"), even by= Harry beginning to fight these intrusions. Alternatively: 2) LV planned, apriori, approximately when Harry would probably have the vi= sion, Kreacher was warned in advance, and then they just crossed their long, thin, evil fi= ngers. I doubt LV expected Harry to fall asleep in his History of Magic OWL exam? = Can he make Harry fall asleep? If this second alternative was the plan, I think that H= arry was actually a bit early. It seems reasonable that Voldy may have been plotting that Harr= y's most extreme mental exhaustion ? and vulnerability - would occur just after his = last exam. Or, 3) That LV can't control when Harry will have a vision - but can tell when = he has had a vision that upsets him greatly ? just as Harry can tell when LV is feeling = strong emotions. He thus knew precisely when Harry had had the vision, and Kreacher was aler= ted. But how would they alert Kreacher from outside Grimmauld Place? And of course, 4) Professor Tofty told his dear friend Tiberious Ogden and = Madam Marchbanks, who alerted the subversive goblins who told Kreacher. Or it wa= s Snape! I have considered the third (and fourth) option for several weeks, wonderin= g what is reasonable. I suppose there are many ways it * could * be explained ? a pr= otean charm on a black family heirloom, ala Hermione's gold galleons. Maybe Bellatrix's ph= oto communicates with Kreature. Certainly there are some Kreacher-specific det= ails we might be suspicious of. But, this scenario strikes me as relatively unlikely as compared to the sec= ond one above. (Maybe the clue to really support it is too obscure for me.) Kreacher's in= volvement is a key clue, IMO, to the nature and degree of Voldemort's influence over Harry's t= houghts ? simply because it suggest the ability to control rather than merely the abi= lity to react. In other words, because it is less likely that the Malfoys have some instant w= ay of communicating with Kreacher, his involvement might suggest a pre-arranged s= chedule. The reasons I have spent so much time on this third one, include that the o= ther two have such disturbing implications for Harry. The inside of his head is no longe= r safe, even at Hogwarts? Just how unsafe are Harry's thoughts and feelings? Can Voldemor= t distort his mind in more subtle ways when he is not extremely exhausted or upset? Ther= e is absolutely no indication that this will stop ? although we do get the re-as= surance that Voldemort will have difficulty in possessing Harry. Can't something be don= e about this? Who insisted on leaving that scar there anyway Caesian - who must remember not to press enter before typing in the post From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 07:35:20 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 07:35:20 -0000 Subject: Poison intentions? (was Re: What does Snape owe Harry?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97583 Caesian wrote: I'd like to be a Snape apologist. It would be a much nicer world if poisonous mushrooms could change their spots, and if so, I wouldn't put it past him. But, Snape is the one character that Dumbledore and JKR seem to be in disagreement on. I may trust Dumbledore, but I trust JKR even more - because she *is* omniscient in the Potterverse. I'm sure they both have their reasons, but I just can't bring myself to defend Snape's character when JKR has stated that we are entirely too fond of him, and may probably change our minds. I can't even begin to imagine (logically without wildly extrapolating from canon as in my previous post) what mind-altering revelation about Snape awaits. Carol: I can't find any reference where JKR actually tell sus not to be too fond of snape. If you mean the October 12 1999 Connection interview where JKR says, "He's not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye," I get exactly the opposite impression from those words: i.e., he *seems* unpleasant, but we should keep an eye on him because he's not what he seems. She adds that we'll find out more about him in Book 4--which is where we first see quite clearly both his courage and his loyalty to Dumbledore. In the same interview she says she's slightly stunned that someone has noted a redemptive pattern to Snape and adds that we'll find out why she's stunned in Book 7. While that remark could mean that the questioner is wrong, I doubt that she'd have been "stunned" by a wrong guess. So my money is on Snape being redeemed. In fact, I'll fell cheated if he isn't. If this isn't the interview you had in mind, I'd appreciate it if you'd link me to it. I've searched the Lexicon to no avail. BTW, the books are more canonical than the interviews. They present the actual evidence for us to interpret--the characters' words and actions(somewhat colored by the narrator's point of view)--whereas the interviews are merely off-the-cuff commentary from an author who likes to be tricky. I trust my own interpretation of Snape over any sly hints JKR wishes to give me--at least until Book 7 comes out--and even then, if Snape continues to fight for the side of good, I'll disagree with her assessment of him as a "deeply horrible person." Carol From Janicem211 at aol.com Sun May 2 22:32:22 2004 From: Janicem211 at aol.com (jemnilla28) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:32:22 -0000 Subject: This may have been discussed earlier....Wh was Hermy at Grimwauld In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97584 Hermione was likely at Grimwald Place because she wanted to help out with the Order. Remember - she isn't bound to go back to her family every summer the way that Harry is, so she could simply tell her parents that she didn't want to go on vacation with them. I don't imagine that a smart, observant person like Hermione would really want to be out of Britain at a time like that because she would effectively be unable to follow the news of LV (or anything else strange). From lita at sailordom.com Mon May 3 05:57:20 2004 From: lita at sailordom.com (Lita Beck) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 23:57:20 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040502202239.S23409@hedwig.sailordom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97585 Carol, I snipped all of your excellent thoughts on history, because I didn't really have anything to add, except to say that I agree. :) But I did have some thoughts on your comments about the Irish Quidditch national team.... On Mon, 3 May 2004, justcarol67 wrote: > As a tangentially related afterthought, the Irish National > team we see in GoF may be a sort of all-star team composed > of the best players from such local teams as the > Ballycastle Bats or Kenmore Kestrels from both Northern > Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, except that unlike > American all-star baseball teams, it apparently operates > as a permanent unit (as evidenced by the seamless > interaction of the chasers, whose teamwork suggests > extensive experience working together). I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Are you familiar with professional football (soccer)? I think that it's very likely that professional Quidditch follows a set-up similar to professional soccer. (I think the set-up is also the same as rugby, but I know very little about rugby, which I suppose outs me as an American, despite being a European football fan. ) In professional football, each country has its own national team. These national teams compete on an international level in competitions like the World Cup and Euro (the European Championship for European teams) in addition to playing "friendlies" (exhibition games). In addition to this international play, the players on a national team also play professionally for a club. The club they play for may or may not be in their homeland--Thierry Henry, for example, plays for the English club Arsenal professionally and for his country (France) internationally. While the national team is made up of the best players (like MLB's All-Star teams), it is not a part of the professional league. International play is in addition to (and separate from) play at the club level. So I think the Irish national team is probably made up of the best Irish players--that is, the best players of Irish nationality (at least some of whom probably play for clubs outside of Britain). The set-up of Quidditch sounds very familiar to me as a soccer fan. What we've heard so far--the World Cup, the League Cup in the British league, etc.--sounds so familiar, that I'm fairly certain JKR is doing the same as she's done with the wizarding education system. That is, she's taken familiar (British) Muggle systems and added magic. > Maybe the very best players can go there directly without > "working their way up through the minors," to borrow an > American expression. Krum, for example, made the Bulgarian > national team while he was still in school and Charlie > Weasley, according to McGonagall, "could have played for > England," but I'm assuming their ability is exceptional. In soccer, once you show exceptional ability, you're called up to your national team. It's not unusual to be called up at what Americans would probably think of as a young age (20-23). But soccer players start out professionally at a younger age than American pro athletes--you don't first play at a collegiate level, then enter a draft to the pros. This would be the case with Quidditch--players would start playing professionally once they left school. I suspect that playing school Quidditch would be considered the equivalent of working your way up, as there is only one Quidditch division in the British league. I think most people would probably have to prove themselves at the pro level, too, though, before being called up, just as happens in soccer. Krum, I think, is supposed to be the example of the truly exceptional--the kind of player who is so good that he gets called up before he even truly proves himself professionally. Wayne Rooney times five, I'm guessing. (Rooney got his first cap for England when he was 17, despite not being a regular starter for his club.) Wow. That was pretty long-winded. :) Really, all I wanted to say was that I think Quidditch parallels Muggle sport in the same way that other parts of wizarding society seem similar to Muggle practices. Lita From lita at sailordom.com Mon May 3 06:13:54 2004 From: lita at sailordom.com (Lita Beck) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 00:13:54 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040503000628.U23409@hedwig.sailordom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97586 > Alshain responded: > It isn't. > > "I wish England had got through, though."[said Charlie.]"That was > embarrassing, that was.[---]Went down to Transylvania, three hundred > and ninety to ten.[...] Shocking performance. And Wales lost to > Uganda, and Scotland were slaughtered by Luxemburg." Ah! I knew there were references to other national teams from the British isles. :) Thanks. I think that if there were a Northern Irish team, it's fate also would have been mentioned. Since one wasn't mentioned, I think there is no Northern Irish team, just an Irish one. > Alshain also said: > Though we don't know about Northern Ireland, the British isles field > four teams at least. > > Carol: > That's not counting numerous local teams, for example the Wimborne > Wasps, for whom Ludo Bagman was a beater, IIRC the position correctly. > (I definitely remember the black and yellow Quidditch robes and the > bludgers to the head!) Actually, I think we're talking about different things. :) Club play would be separate from international play. Clubs from the British league (the Wasps, Puddlemere United, the Cannons, etc.) wouldn't play in the World Cup. But I am beginning to think that the British isles only has four national teams, similar in concept to British football (soccer). Lita From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon May 3 09:29:09 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 05:29:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Poison intentions? (was Re: What does Snape owe Harry?) Message-ID: <12f.407430c1.2dc76ae5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97587 In a message dated 5/3/2004 3:37:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: Carol: I can't find any reference where JKR actually tell sus not to be too fond of snape. If you mean the October 12 1999 Connection interview where JKR says, "He's not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye," ===================================== Sherrie here: I think this is an ongoing confusion of two statements - the one above, concerning Snape, and one she makes in (IIRC) the RAH chat, which is about DRACO. She states that she's amazed that children are showing up at book signings dressed as Draco, and it bothers her, as we "shouldn't get too fond of Draco." Sherrie (who isn't very fond of Draco, despite the obsession of one barely-teenager!) "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 3 09:56:53 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 09:56:53 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97588 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol: > The point of my post, in case anyone is wondering, is that despite > Fudge's occasional interactions with the Muggle Prime Minister > (necessary to keep the WW hidden from the Muggles), postmedieval > Muggle politics, including the present political geography of Ireland > and the United Kingdom, are IMO of no concern whatever to the WW. Geoff: I wouldn't entirely agree with you on that, because the Wizarding World might find itself in a position of having to contact the Taoiseach in some sort of emergency. CArol: > Carol, with apologies for oversimplifying the complicated relations > between England and Ireland over the centuries, but 1473 suggested the > Yorkists and Lancastrians and this post developed from there. . . Geoff: Just watch what you're saying about Lancastrians..... I might do something more drastic than think about sending you red roses. :-) From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 3 10:09:50 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 10:09:50 -0000 Subject: Good Slytherins was Dumbledore's Army (DA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: Gregory Lyn: > > Two, the school motto means "Never wake a sleeping dragon" or > > something along those lines, and Draco means dragon. Geoff: To be pedantic, "Never tickle a sleeping dragon", a piece of information to be treated as seriously as "Never laugh at live dragons", a comment made by a slightly singed Bilbo Baggins. Gregory Lynn: > > Draco could be disillusioned by something he sees his father do. > > Marianne: > Draco is more than happy to be a wand-wielding member of Umbridge's > Inquisitorial Squad. And, he's not at all happy about Daddy being > sent to Azkaban at the end of OoP. I see him at this point in the > series as someone who's all fired up on behalf of his father. And, > frankly, I can't see that anything Lucius could do, including > killing someone, that Draco couldn't rationalise to himself as a > necessary action. Geoff: Bear in mind that there /is/ friction between Draco and Lucius. The former is not at all happy with some of the criticisms and strictures directed at him in Burgin and Burkes. (COS "At Flourish and Blotts" between pp.42-44 UK edition) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon May 3 10:14:22 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 10:14:22 -0000 Subject: Perchance to dream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97591 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tub_of_earwax" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "caesian" wrote: (Heavy snipping throughout) > > Kneasy wrote: > > > I was wondering - why bother to recount a dream in canon > > > and then tell us that the dreamer never remembers it? > > > Such an odd dream, too. > > > > > > > Caesian responds: > > I was just reading this passage about 2 minutes before your post - > > talk about divination. I think you are correct that the dream >> is meaningful, but there are two points I disagree with. Harry > > does understand the flash of green light, and even the high- > > pitched cackle of laughter - because he recalls them after Hagrid > > describes his parents death earlier in the book. > Kneasy: Ah. I think you've slid past the key word in that quote - and that's "signifies". True, he can remember bits and pieces; that wasn't really the thrust of my argument; it's the meaning that's unknown to Harry. > Lara: > Why does he not remember the dream? because you often don't after > you've had one, especially is you go back to sleep afterwards. And > what's the point in showing us the dream if he doesn't remember it? Kneasy: Exactly. The passage isn't for Harry at all - it's for us, the readers. A little nugget for us to poke and puzzle over IMO. Ours and ours alone, 'cos Harry never remembers it. Generally most clues only confirm themselves as such with hindsight. We may have had suspicions, we may wonder, but usually the certain, positive identification of a clue before the event is a rare and wondrous thing. In this instance a whole load of stuff was handed to us on a plate - "Look! Information! Hints! Harry hasn't been told and you have!" In the same book the talking turban is explained, yet another clue that the dream is not just page-filler. It has meaning, it very likely points to other things. And what things! Slytherin is his destiny. The Sorting Hat tells Harry that he ought to be in Slytherin again in CoS; since then zilch. OK, I doubt he will join the Slyths, but the thrust is that for whatever reason (transfer of Voldy bits?) Harry has an affinity for Slytherin, whether he likes it or not. And very likely this affinity is strongly plot sensitive. So far this hasn't been evident, the connections we've seen aren't between Harry and Slytherin, but Harry and Voldy. Unless Voldy *is* Slytherin. Must think a bit more of the possible ramifications resulting from that possibility (again!). All sorts of explanations/threads/theories can be surmised from that starting point. Hmm. Malfoy laughs and turns into Snape. It's not often in the books that young Malfoy has the luxury of a good laugh at Harry's expense; if it is a clue then it probably relates to a significant event. There doesn't seem to be anything in canon up to now that one would point to and say "That's it!" Usually Malfoy doesn't laugh anyway, he's smug, he sneers instead. Snape is a whole other. Snape laughing. Difficult to imagine except in extreme circumstances. That "high and cold" laughter; not friendly at all. Somehow seems to have overtones of triumph, of "now I win". The Snape-ologists will love that scene, if it ever happens. Finally the green flash. A recurring event in the books. Does it refer to Godric's Hollow and Lily or to future events? And is it connected to Snape? Can't quite fit the high and cold laughter to the "cackle" that Harry recalls in his replays of GH. Snape with Voldy at GH? Oho! What a revelation that would be! Lip-smacking shock-horror. But maybe that's stretching things a bit far, at least for now. PS/SS was heavily edited before publication. JKR took out 15(!) chapters because originally it told us way too much about the whys and wherefors of the HP saga. I'm wondering if this little scene wasn't left in as a sort of consolation prize, a morsel to mark, note and inwardly digest. Kneasy From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 3 10:19:35 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 10:19:35 -0000 Subject: Dates and calendars in Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97592 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leaverish" wrote: > Tammy wrote: > > How do you expect to reconcile literary astronomical > > indicators to real world dates when, for five years > > now, September first has been a Sunday? Doesn't that > > just scream out that JKR is not using a real world > > calendar? > > > Sorry, maybe I'm missing something, and this must have been said > before, but how can there be a question regarding the real date of > the happenings in the books? We have explicit info on this. > In CoS nearly headless Nick has his 500th death day, and we're told > he was killed in 1492. Ergo, CoS happens in 1992. > > Leaverish Geoff: I didn't originally raise this point, but perhaps I will now. Where does the support for 01/09 having been a Sunday for five years come from? From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 3 10:24:03 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 10:24:03 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: <20040503000628.U23409@hedwig.sailordom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lita Beck wrote: Lita: > But I am beginning to think that the British isles only has > four national teams, similar in concept to British football > (soccer). Geoff: To be accurate, Great Britain has three teams, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has four, the British Isles have five. (Assuming that the Isle of Man doesn't have one in which I think I am accurate). From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon May 3 11:07:52 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 11:07:52 -0000 Subject: Perchance to dream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97594 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: Can't quite fit the high and cold laughter to the "cackle" > that Harry recalls in his replays of GH. Snape with Voldy at GH? > Oho! What a revelation that would be! Lip-smacking shock-horror. > But maybe that's stretching things a bit far, at least for now. > Carolyn: I tell you, it was Bellatrix..she was there as well.. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 3 11:15:03 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 11:15:03 -0000 Subject: DD/MM canon? (was Re: Dumbledore/Hermes + Minerva) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97595 > Carol responded to a post about Snape having twins: I think he's the one who refers to Snape as "Snap" and JKR laughingly excuses his blunder on the grounds that his twins are keeping him up at night. Something along those lines, but the twins aren't Snape's--unfortunately for our speculations about his private life, if any. If I weren't about 400 posts behind, I'd look up the link for you. Potioncat: I went to Quick Quill and typed Snape and twins and got the interview. Good memory Carol, the twins belonged to the interviewer. But I'll bet that interview is why Snape has twins in so many fanfics!!! Potioncat (just for the record, I didn't think he had twins, but it would be funny!) From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 3 11:34:15 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 11:34:15 -0000 Subject: Where do teachers live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97596 snipping several posts Carol wrote: > > I also don't think that the robes are open at the front as they're > depicted in the American editions. I think they're more like a > graduation gown that you pull over your head, which explains how Mr. > Weasley could put his on back-to-front and need help getting it on > right. >snip> No school uniforms, either; just plain black robes > for everyday wear. > > Carol, who dislikes the overuse of Muggle clothes in the upcoming PoA > film and wonders why JKR okayed it Potioncat: I'm not a visual reader, that is I can't really "picture" things in my head, (I have a little voice, like Harry) so I just can't get all these robes, or how Snape's would billow. But I think you're right about them being the pull over type. And that what they are worn with may vary with the person. Although it does sort of sound as if the adults have a wider range of robe styles. I seem to recall someone wearing a suit in a non-muggle situation. It also seems as if in one of the books OoP (?) kids returning to school are commenting on each others new clothes and new hair styles. And Ron has jumpers....Oh well. BTW, the US edition of SS I have does not have pictures in it. By any chance did the open robes in the books appear before or after the movies? But I really wanted to respond to your signature line. I think JKR OK'd Muggle clothing in the very first book when she allowed them to wear school uniforms inside open robes. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 3 12:11:25 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 12:11:25 -0000 Subject: Help with Lupin's boggart / Cockroaches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97597 Carol wrote: > > Despite McGonagall's skepticism, this prediction, like the one about > someone leaving the class around Easter, is at least partially > accurate since Lupin is no longer a teacher five months later. But > maybe there's more to it. Why *did* Lupin "positively flee" unless he > was afraid of his own future? > Potioncat: Just to clarify, Carol, you vote yes for moon-boggart, and yes for afraid of future? BTW, in OoP, do readers think he vanished his boggart differently than in PoA or that JKR just used a short-hand to describe the situation? It seems to me we see a shorted version in another boggart scene too, but I can't place it. Potioncat From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon May 3 12:15:31 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 12:15:31 -0000 Subject: Perchance to dream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97598 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > Can't quite fit the high and cold laughter to the "cackle" > > that Harry recalls in his replays of GH. Snape with Voldy at GH? > > Oho! What a revelation that would be! Lip-smacking shock-horror. > > But maybe that's stretching things a bit far, at least for now. > > > > Carolyn: > I tell you, it was Bellatrix..she was there as well.. Kneasy: Good point. She does give a mad cackle of laughter when questioning Harry in the Ministry. Not difficult to imagine her before Godric's Hollow: "Ooh! Can I come and watch? Please? You never take me anywhere and I haven't had a good laugh for ages." Problem. Why then would she be among the Crucio Crowd at the Longbottom's trying to find out where Voldy was and what had happened to him? She'd already know. So unless Alice and Frank were victims of sheer spite and not as the incident is recounted in the books it probably wasn't her. Doubtful if Voldy cackles; doesn't match the image, somehow. A low evil chuckle would be more in his line. "Cackles" usually depicts someone decrepit, mad, female or any combination thereof. Comb the canon. We need to find the phantom cackler. Kneasy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 3 13:05:27 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 13:05:27 -0000 Subject: Poison intentions? (was Re: What does Snape owe Harry?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97599 Caesian wrote: > I just can't bring myself to defend Snape's character when JKR has > stated that we are entirely too fond of him, and may probably > change our minds. Carol: > I can't find any reference where JKR actually tell sus not to be too > fond of snape. If you mean the October 12 1999 Connection interview > where JKR says, "He's not a particularly pleasant person at all. > However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that > because there is more to him than meets the eye," I get exactly the > opposite impression from those words: i.e., he *seems* unpleasant, > but we should keep an eye on him because he's not what he seems. > She adds that we'll find out more about him in Book 4--which is > where we first see quite clearly both his courage and his loyalty > to Dumbledore. Siriusly Snapey Susan: There's this one, Carol: "Yes, but you shouldn't think he's too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely." [Royal Albert Hall interview, 2003] It doesn't say exactly what you were asking about, but I thought I'd send it along anyway. There is also this bit, which I find humorous: "I really like Snape. I mean, I wouldn't want to have a dinner with him, but as a character he's great because he's complicated and quite nasty." [Newsweek web exclusive, 2003] Siriusly Snapey Susan From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 3 13:14:03 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 13:14:03 -0000 Subject: Help with Lupin's boggart / Cockroaches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97600 Potioncat: > BTW, in OoP, do readers think he vanished his boggart differently than in PoA or that JKR just used a short-hand to describe the situation? It seems to me we see a shorted version in another boggart scene too, but I can't place it.< Lupin doesn't vanquish the boggart in PoA. Neville does. "[...]the boggart exploded, burst into a thousand tiny wisps of smoke; and was gone." --PoA 7 Unless I'm mistaken, we never find out what happened to the other boggart, the one that Harry uses for patronus practice. At one point, Lupin uses his wand to force it back into its packing case, and despite Lupin's use of riddikulus it has the form of the "silvery orb." --PoA 12 Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 3 13:24:00 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 13:24:00 -0000 Subject: Help with Lupin's boggart / Cockroaches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97601 > Potioncat: > > BTW, in OoP, do readers think he vanished his boggart > differently than in PoA or that JKR just used a short-hand to > describe the situation? Pippin: > Lupin doesn't vanquish the boggart in PoA. Neville does. "[...]the > boggart exploded, burst into a thousand tiny wisps of smoke; > and was gone." --PoA 7 Potioncat: No, I mean in OoP when Lupin takes care of the Boggart that is upsetting Molly. Actually after I posted that question I saw that Carol had also asked it in 97458 Let's see if I can paste it then snip it. > from post 97458 > Carol again: snip ... but I also wondered about Lupin's simply vanishing the > boggart in OoP. Maybe it *is* the riddikulus spell, but he's so > familiar with it that he doesn't have to say it out loud--silent magic > of the type that Snape uses to write potions recipes on the board, as > I mentioned in a post to a different thread. But if that were the > case, wouldn't the boggart have assumed a ridiculous form before > vanishing (becoming a cockroach or whatever)? Potioncat: Any ideas? From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 3 13:33:14 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 13:33:14 -0000 Subject: Kreacher, Buckbeak and Harry's Brain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "caesian" wrote: > 3) That LV can't control when Harry will have a vision - but can tell when he has had a vision that upsets him greatly ? just as Harry can tell when LV is feeling strong emotions. > He thus knew precisely when Harry had had the vision, and Kreacher was alerted. But how would they alert Kreacher from outside Grimmauld Place? > How indeed? Thank you caesian, for a signal contribution to ESE!Lupin theory! I've been saying that Sirius had to die because if he had lived, he could have extracted information from Kreacher that would implicate Lupin, but I've never been able to say what that information was. I've been going on the assumption it had something to do with Podmore, but there was really no reason for Kreacher to be involved in that. This is better. IMO, it was Lupin, in communication with Peter by means of the magical mirrors the Marauders used to contact one another, who told Kreacher when to act. If only Sirius had stayed behind as he was supposed to, he needn't have died. Kreacher would have admitted to defecting to the Malfoys and injuring Buckbeak, Sirius would have murdered him in a fury, and all Kreacher's other secrets would have been safe. Alas, Sirius left Kreacher behind, subject to Dumbledore's far more searching and less vengeance-driven interrogation. Kreacher gave away much, but not everything--not who had instructed him when it was time to injure Buckbeak. He was lying to Dumbledore, despite legilimency. But Kreacher could not lie to Sirius without punishing himself. If Sirius lived, Kreacher's falsehoods would be detected. Sirius had to die. Pippin From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon May 3 14:08:01 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 14:08:01 -0000 Subject: Perchance to dream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote (about the possibility of Bellatrix being at GH): > > Problem. > Why then would she be among the Crucio Crowd at the Longbottom's > trying to find out where Voldy was and what had happened to him? > She'd already know. So unless Alice and Frank were victims of sheer > spite and not as the incident is recounted in the books it probably > wasn't her. > Carolyn: Well, there are two references to what the DE's were doing at the Longbottoms. The first is what Harry sees in the Pensieve courtroom scene, where Crouch Sr says: 'The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror - Frank Longbottom - and subjecting him to the Cruciatus curse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master..' The second is what DD says to Harry afterwards (referring to the Longbottoms): 'He and his wife were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after he lost his powers..' To my mind, neither of these are inconsistent with what Bellatrix might have seen and understood at Godric's Hollow. There would have been a flash of green light and the characteristic rushing sound of the AK, and then her cuddly favourite disappears. She knows the effect of the curse (unmarked but dead body), but there has been no mention of Voldie's body remaining in the house, so she knows he must be still around somewhere. Hence, she and the rest of them begin their search immediately ('we alone tried to find him'), and for some reason which we don't yet know, sought out the Longbottoms. Barry: Doubtful if Voldy cackles; doesn't match the image, somehow. A low evil chuckle would be more in his line. "Cackles" usually depicts someone decrepit, mad, female or any combination thereof. Comb the canon. We need to find the phantom cackler. Carolyn: Alas, cackle-ometer in hand, after an exhausting tour of the WW, I find that virtually all the female characters screech and cackle shrilly when under pressure (and a few men as well eg Avery). JKR clearly ran out of adjectives at some point. Keen as I am to get Molly somehow, not even her shrieks can be forced into the semblance of a case on this one. My money's still on dear Bella on her night out with the lads. From pt4ever at yahoo.com Mon May 3 14:45:32 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 14:45:32 -0000 Subject: Perchance to dream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97604 Carolyn: <<>> If Bellatrix *was* at Godric's Hollow with LV that night, why didn't she immediately kill/kidnap Harry after LV disappeared? - JoAnna From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon May 3 15:13:36 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 15:13:36 -0000 Subject: Perchance to dream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "JoAnna" wrote: > > If Bellatrix *was* at Godric's Hollow with LV that night, why didn't she immediately kill/kidnap Harry after LV disappeared? > Carolyn: Maybe too shocked at what had happened ? Realised she couldn't touch the kid if Voldie couldn't ? Also, we don't know yet why the house was in ruins - AK's don't seem to cause that sort of collateral damage. Maybe she did chuck a few more spells around, then fled at the sight of Teflon!Harry as he continued to grin amongst the smoking rubble. I would. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon May 3 15:33:15 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 15:33:15 -0000 Subject: Perchance to dream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Alas, cackle-ometer in hand, after an exhausting tour of the WW, I > find that virtually all the female characters screech and cackle > shrilly when under pressure (and a few men as well eg Avery). JKR > clearly ran out of adjectives at some point. Keen as I am to get > Molly somehow, not even her shrieks can be forced into the semblance > of a case on this one. My money's still on dear Bella on her night > out with the lads. Would it be in character for darling Bella not to taunt young Potter with what she had seen done to his parents? Hardly. She revels in her part in torturing the Longbottoms. Can't really see her letting slip the opportunity to distress Harry with jolly tales of death and destruction. That's another aspect to consider - the destruction of the house. If any of Voldy's little pals were caught in that you'd expect a mention or two somewhere. That'd be a great help - beware the demented cackler with a limp. But that would make it too easy. Kneasy From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon May 3 16:03:22 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 16:03:22 -0000 Subject: Perchance to dream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > Would it be in character for darling Bella not to taunt young Potter with what she had seen done to his parents? Hardly. She revels in her part in torturing the Longbottoms. Can't really see her letting slip the opportunity to distress Harry with jolly tales of death and destruction. > > That's another aspect to consider - the destruction of the house. If any of Voldy's little pals were caught in that you'd expect a mention or two somewhere. That'd be a great help - beware the demented > cackler with a limp. But that would make it too easy. > Carolyn: If she had been there it might explain Harry's strange fascination with her - one of the voices seared into his brain from that night ? Also, on cackling maniacs, worryingly (!), I have just come across this (OOP, p.716): 'And he knows!' said Harry, with a mad laugh to match Bellatrix's own... oh no, can't bear another time-travel discussion.. From ms-tamany at rcn.com Mon May 3 16:09:39 2004 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 12:09:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4552 In-Reply-To: <1083585565.4360.85705.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <40963683.21080.3AE5E7B4@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 97608 A few days ago, I (Tammy) asked: > > How do you expect to reconcile literary astronomical > > indicators to real world dates when, for five years > > now, September first has been a Sunday? Doesn't that > > just scream out that JKR is not using a real world calendar? Leaverish replied: > Sorry, maybe I'm missing something, and this must have been said > before, but how can there be a question regarding the real date of the > happenings in the books? We have explicit info on this. In CoS > nearly headless Nick has his 500th death day, and we're told he was > killed in 1492. Ergo, CoS happens in 1992. Then Geoff asked: > I didn't originally raise this point, but perhaps I will now. Where so > the support for 01/09 having been a Sunday for five years come from? Now I (Tammy) respond: Okay, first I'll answer Leaverish, then I'll answer Geoff. I was not questioning the year in which the books are set. I don't care what year they're set in, myself, and I don't give much credence to JKR's dating system, anyway, what with her acknowledged and admitted difficulty with numbers and math. Yeah, NHN's 500th death day was in COS, and his year of death was stated as 1492. But just the year before, he'd said he hadn't eaten in almost 400 years, throwing some doubt as to when he *DID* die. I just figure that she's not good at numbers, and I forgive her mathmatical Flints, and ignore the inconsistancies they bring up. Besides, I don't think she carries her Encyclopaedia Potterica with her to interviews and chats, so we can't really trust numbers answers from those, either, since they'd be just off the top of her head, right? Anyway, the dates and years have never really bothered me at all -- it's a work of fiction, set in a world NOT QUITE our own. However, I *CAN* be nitpicky about researching dates -- after all, for my own books, I've created a timeline intermeshing calendars for several different societies, on several different worlds, each with however many satelites and the phases thereof, so that I know exactly what day it is on one world when something happens on another one, as well as which moon is where in the sky on what worlds, *and* what the weather's like, and if the characters can even see the night sky. In fact, I've poured so much creative energy into making my timeline work smoothly over the dozen worlds and seven centuries that I haven't got anything left over for the story, so I am simply **RELISHING** the way that JKR doesn't seem to care much about meshing her dates. If she can get away with it and become richer than the Queen of England by doing so, maybe I can loosen my manic grip on that calendar collection, and get some actual WRITING done! This segues into Geoff's question, about support for the 'September Always Starts On Sunday' theory, which I'll outline here, in chronological reverse (and yes, I have the books right here): In OOP, Harry attends DADA with Delores on their first day back to classes. The day is not named, however, we can learn the day by using his detentions. He's supposed to do the week's worth of detentions, starting the very next night. So, the day after DADA with Dolores, he starts his detentions. The day is still not named, so we can only call it day 1 of detention, day 2 of the classes, day 3 of term. The next day, the fourth day of term, third day of classes, and second day of detention, is still not named, but is mentioned on page 270, US hardback edition. The first two paragraphs deal with that particular day, until he falls asleep fully clothed on top of his covers. The next paragraph begins: "Thursday passed in a haze of tiredness." Thursday is obviously the third day of detention, now, meaning that the day before was Wednesday, and the first day of detention was Tuesday, which means that the day he earned detention, the first day of classes, was Monday, which means they arrived on Sunday night. With me so far? Okay, on to the second-strongest canon. In GOF, Mad-Eye Moody shows up at the feast, and there's a huge storm. Chapter thirteen starts off with, "The storm had blown itself out by the following morning," and the students are discussing their class schedule. This is also the day we meet Draco Malfoy, The Amazing Bouncing Ferret (one of MY favorite scenes!). That night, the students are comparing notes about Moody and his DADA classes, and Ron bemoans the fact that, "We haven't got him till Thursday!" The next chapter starts off with, "The next two days passed without great incident," giving us three days of classes completed in the term, or four days actually at the school. We know that Thursday is not the second day to pass without great incident, because at the end of the first paragraph of this chapter (chapter 14, for those who are counting), Neville has returned from detention with Snape, and Hermione is teaching him a Scouring Charm to get the frog guts out from under his nails. Then, on page 210, US paperback edition, third paragraph, it starts out with, "The Gryffindor fourth years were looking forward to Moody's first lesson so much that they arrived early on Thursday lunchtime," thus establishing two full days between Thursday and the first day of classes, when Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret. Thursday, Wednesday (full day two), Tuesday (full day one), Monday (ferret day, and first day of classes), which means they arrived on Sunday night. Sadly, the first three books don't give such definite information, though they do each lend themselves to an interpretation of classes starting on Monday. However, even if they didn't, the pattern of September starting on the same day two years running is quite specifically set between books 4 and 5. In the real world, September (since it's after February, of course) starts on Leap Years two days later than the year before, or one day later in regular years. It never starts on the same day from one year to the next. Anyway, back to the books: In POA, Malfoy taunts Buckbeak on the first day of classes. HRH sneak down to visit Hagrid at his hut that night, where he'd been drinking, but sobered up enough to yell at them for risking the trip and to escort them back to the castle, and thus ends chapter six. Chapter seven begins with, "Malfoy didn't reappear in classes until late on Thursday morning," giving us nothing to count, but leaving a sense of some time having passed. In COS, chapter six details the first day of classes, with Lockhart's disastrous Cornish Pixies lesson, and then chapter seven starts off with, "Harry spent a lot of time over the next few days dodging out of sight whenever he saw Gilderoy Lockhart," and then gives a definite day name in the second paragraph, when, on Friday, Ron's wand shot out of his hand in Charms class and hit Professor Flitwick between the eyes, giving him a nasty boil. Now, granted, there's no specific number of days mentioned, but how many can 'the next few days' be? Chapter six must have begun early in the week, for Friday to be after a 'few days'. In SS/PS, the first few days of classes are touched upon but not differentiated, passing in a blur, until Friday, when Harry and Ron are finally able to find their way to the Great Hall without getting lost. This gives the sense of some little time between starting classes and Friday, though there is no definite number of days given. Oooh, lookitt me, expounding HP canon almost like an expert! WHEEE! Okay, I'll shut up now. *** Tammy ms-tamany at rcn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Mon May 3 16:44:23 2004 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivierfouquet2000) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 16:44:23 -0000 Subject: Three questions for ESE!Lupin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97609 Pippin has been particularly active these days, attacking Lupin in almost every posts she wrote, so I feel I must step to his defense. I have got three questions to the ESE!Lupin theory. But before anything else, I've got a preliminary question: since when is Lupin on Voldemort's side? I haven't been able to figure that out clearly from Pippin's posts. Moving on to my questions. I) Why, if ESE!Lupin is true, didn't Lupin frame Sirius in PoA? If Lupin had been with LV all along, he certainly knew Peter was the culprit, and Sirius innocent (Sirius says DE in Azkaban knew Peter's role). Lupin could have tell Dumbledore Sirius was an Animagus and have him kissed, potentially a good thing for LV. As I understand it, the last version of ESE!Lupin holds that Lupin has a pathological need to be liked, regardless of his actions. That was supposedly his motive of him not telling Dumbledor. In other words, Lupin is thinking "Oh please, DD like me, I'm good, oh you don't like me enough, I turn to LV." Is that correct? II) If it is, then here is ma second question. What would make Lupin believe if he'll be more liked in a Voldemort-ruled society than in a Dumbledore-ruled society? Who are the people that accept him regardless of his disease: DD, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Sirius, James, the Weasleys... In other words, the Order. Who are those who despise him: Dolores Umbridge, Fudge, Draco, Kreacher, Sirius' mother. In other words those who prize purity of blood above all. What makes him think the champion of racism will accept him and like him? Pippin has also suggested it has to do with the idea of orphan disease: Lupin would feel that the WW is not devoting enough energy to cure his illness. JKR should be quite concerned by that seeing her mother has died, victim of an orphan disease. Indeed, JKR herself has campaigned vigorously in favor of a better recognition by Scotland of the disease that killed her mother. She has also stated that she had written Lupin has a metaphor of someone handicaped. JKR certainly feels that her state does do enough for orphan disease. Has JKR turned to a racist party? Is she likely to? III) My third question is somewhat not related and I have asked it before, but still, I haven't read a convincing answer yet. Why did Lupin fought so hard to keep Harry from jumping through the Veil after Sirius? Killer!Lupin theorists say that he has just killed Sirius in front of Dumbledore, and now he would be afraid of the idea of just letting Harry go? He could have told DD he was so shocked by the death of his best friend that he couldn't move a finger or anything else. Why did he do so much efforts (it is written that Harry fought viciously against him)? I would like to conclude by exploring a possible parallel between JKR's mother and Lupin. It may seem strange to compare them, but both are victims of disease that cause intense pain, both are described by JKR has never loosing their temper, both are described as gentle and caring. I would go as far as saying that JKR could have considered writing Lupin as a woman, but that she renounced because she either thought the analogy would be too clear or because the parallel with Hermione (which is already very tempting) would seem too artificial (a trio in the past, a trio now). It has been pointed long long ago by Elkins that JKR seemed to have a problem with maternity in the sense that the ever-loving mother in HP are dead (Lily, Mrs. Crouch) while the living mother are absent (Hermione's), tempered housewives (Molly) or negative (Petunia, Narcissa, Mrs. Black...). Well, there is one sort of ever-loving "mother" in HP: Lupin. Olivier PS: don't take my last paragraph too seriously, I thought it funny to make Lupin the epitome of all good while Pippin makes him the incarnation of evil. From caesian at yahoo.com Mon May 3 17:24:26 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 17:24:26 -0000 Subject: Poison intentions? (was Re: What does Snape owe Harry?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97610 >many moons ago, Caesian wrote: > I'd like to be a Snape apologist. but I just can't bring myself > to defend Snape's character when JKR has stated that we are entirely > too fond of him, and may probably change our minds. > > Carol: > I can't find any reference where JKR actually tell sus not to be too > fond of snape. > > Carol Caesian apologizes: You might have missed my previous post apologizing for not checking my source before my off-the-cuff statement about a JKR interview (# 97157). I do apologize. I have thus far failed to slake the thirst of truth/fact and Snape defense, and I will do my full penance here - but I'd like to start with the proverbial I-utterly-concede-the-point. I mangled a couple of quotes, one that was clearly about Draco - and did not give you any links. Sorry. My very bad. My first week on the list - oops (potion vial drops to floor, I sneer ... no, no, no! I am sincerely sorry.) In fact, I'd like to thank you because my mangled impression was influencing my brain, and now that I've spent some time reading and re-reading interviews I am more clear on that-man-we-love-to-hate, SS, whos initials remind me of the Gestapo. I suppose I still interpret these comments as I did before. I certainly agree that they are of a variety and vagueness that lend themselves to many viewpoints. And I would still like to be a Snape apologist. If that were possible, I can only hope that his failure to teach Harry Occlumency was the hit-bottom moment in his struggle as an addict to whatever he's stuck on. At least during this, his second chance. (Caesian's cushion zooms wildly past box and smacks Lavendar Brown - because someone has to). So, here goes - all Quick Quotes references to Snape excepting the English Village origin of his name: America Online, October 19, 2000 Chat Transcript Q: Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape? JKR: Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban. caesian comment: aha! Snape has dress sense! Family Education Summer 1999 Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter? A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape because he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd love to meet. Amazon UK ca. 1999 Magic, Mystery, and Mayhem Amazon.co.uk: Are your characters based on people you know? Rowling: Some of them are, but I have to be extremely careful what I say about this. Mostly, real people inspire a character, but once they are inside your head they start turning into something quite different. Professor Snape and Gilderoy Lockhart both started as exaggerated versions of people I've met, but became rather different once I got them on the page. Hermione is a bit like me when I was 11, though much cleverer. BBC 02 November 2001 Secrets revealed JK also revealed she gave some of the actors some top secret background information that will emerge for the rest of us in later books. She said she thought it was important to tell them so they knew their characters better: "I did give certain information to Robbie Coltrane, the background story about Hagrid and I gave Alan Rickman a little bit on Snape," she told Newsround's Lizo Mzimba. "But no-one should go out and kidnap them because they won't talk!" caesian: maybe Carol and I could try capturing Rickman just in case? (mad cackle) Barnes and Noble Chat 20 October 2000 Q: Why does Professor Dumbledore allow Professor Snape to be so nasty to the students (especially to Harry, Hermione, and Neville)? JKR: Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life; horrible teachers like Snape are one of them! Q: The character of Professor Snape fascinates me. Will you reveal his back story further in the next Harry Potter book? JKR: You will find out more about Snape in future books. Keep an eye on him! caesian - as if we could resist. AOL Chat 19 October 2000 Q: Ms. Rowling, which character besides Harry is your favorite, and why? JKR: I think that would have to be Hagrid -- but I love Ron and Hermione too, and I also love writing characters like Gilderoy Lockhart, Snape, the Dursleys... it's such fun doing horrible things to them. caesian: so would that be "drowning", or "cauldron" or "Snape"? ... The Record, Northern NJ 14 October 1999 Professor Snape, she said, was based on a teacher she despised: "The great thing about becoming a writer is you can get revenge on everyone." The Connection 12 October 1999 Q: What about Snape? JKR: Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He's not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4. No, I'm not trying to drum up more sales, go to the library and get it out. I'd rather people read it. Q: One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. (caesian - shudder) Q: There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. Caesian - who should have thoroughly learned her lesson - never, ever poison the original intention of the post (in this case, that Snape probably would have poisoned Harry in class - # 97125) with some high-extrapolation at the end. From erinellii at yahoo.com Mon May 3 17:51:52 2004 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 17:51:52 -0000 Subject: But Why does it Have to be Lupin? (was:Kreacher, Buckbeak ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97611 "caesian" wrote: > > LV can't control when Harry will have a vision - but can > tell when he has had a vision that upsets him greatly ? just as > Harry can tell when LV is feeling strong emotions. > > He thus knew precisely when Harry had had the vision, and > Kreacher was alerted. But how would they alert Kreacher from > outside Grimmauld Place? And Pippin replied: > How indeed? Thank you caesian, for a signal contribution to > ESE!Lupin theory! > IMO, it was Lupin, in communication with Peter by > means of the magical mirrors the Marauders used to contact > one another, who told Kreacher when to act. Now Erin challenges: Really? And you think Kreacher would have taken orders from- or even acknowledged the presence of- Lupin? Lupin the half-blood? Lupin the werewolf? On the contrary, Kreacher hated Lupin along with most of the other members of the OotP. Consider his diatribe in Chapter Six: "...oh my poor Mistress, if she knew, if she knew the scum they've let in her house, what would she say to old Kreacher, oh the shame of it, Mudbloods and WEREWOLVES and traitors and thieves..." (emphasis added) No, the spy communicating with Kreacher would have had to have been someone that Kreacher respected enough to work with. For instance, a Weasley. Kreacher's only beef with *them* is that they don't support pure-blood superiority. But what if one of them secretly did? Now I wonder which Weasley could secretly be Ever-So-Evil? Erin From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 3 17:58:03 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 17:58:03 -0000 Subject: Poison intentions? (was Re: What does Snape owe Harry?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97612 > > Caesian apologizes: > You might have missed my previous post apologizing for not checking my source before > my off-the-cuff statement about a JKR interview (# 97157). I do apologize. snip > My very bad. My first week on the list - oops (potion vial drops to floor, I sneer ... no, no, > no! I am sincerely sorry.) Potioncat: First week on the list and you came up with a post that generated so much discussion! Welcome to the list! Nothing to apologize for. Let me tell you this newby has already seen lots of us (me too) dash off a poorly remembered quote. BTW, I went back to that post because for some reason I hadn't read it either. And your comments/questions to me were correct. Caesian: snip > BBC 02 November 2001 > Secrets revealed >>Potioncat snippin parts of this quote > I gave Alan Rickman a little bit on Snape," she told Newsround's Lizo Mzimba. > "But no-one should go out and kidnap them because they won't talk!" > caesian: maybe Carol and I could try capturing Rickman just in case? (mad cackle) Potioncat: Count me in. ;-) {BTW take a look at HBO's Something the Lord Made site for the trailer and Rickman interview. He says he never judges his characters which I found interesting given Snape} > Caesian - who should have thoroughly learned her lesson - never, ever poison the original > intention of the post (in this case, that Snape probably would have poisoned Harry in class > - # 97125) with some high-extrapolation at the end. Potioncat: Several of us have found it's the off the cuff, half in jest comments that generate the responses rather than the prime reason for making a post. Again, welcome to the list. Potioncat: who aplogizes if this post is way too OT. From hannah at readysolve.com Mon May 3 18:17:27 2004 From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 18:17:27 -0000 Subject: Help with Lupin's boggart / Cockroaches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97613 Potioncat: > > BTW, in OoP, do readers think he vanished his boggart differently > than in PoA or that JKR just used a short-hand to describe the > situation? It seems to me we see a shorted version in another > boggart scene too, but I can't place it. In the maze in GoF Harry uses riddikulus to get rid of a boggart, but it simply vanishes and we never find out what a ridiculus dementor looks like. It did occur to me that perhaps the strength of the spell causes it to work quicker. In GoF Harry is comfortable with the spell so the boggart vanishes immediately, Lupin would naturally be good at it. Khilari - who hopes she is remembering correctly as she has not looked it up. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 3 19:41:44 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 19:41:44 -0000 Subject: Dates and calendars - Sept 1 Always on Sunday. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97614 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leaverish" > wrote: > > Tammy wrote: > > > How do you expect to reconcile literary astronomical > > > indicators to real world dates when, for five years > > > now, September first has been a Sunday? Doesn't that > > > just scream out that JKR is not using a real world > > > calendar? > > ...edited... > > Geoff: > I didn't originally raise this point, but perhaps I will now. Where > does the support for 01/09 having been a Sunday for five years come > from? bboy_mn; Using my not very trustworthy memory, I will ask you recall that the day of the week of the Hogwarts Express train ride is never specified, but the first day of classes is always on a Monday, and that day appears to always be the day after the train ride. If the train ride is Sept 1, and the day after is always Monday, then logically, we have seen Sept 1 fall on a Sunday for every book. I'm not so sure we could consider this a flint, it's probably more like 'artistic license'. JKR starts the school year on a Monday so she can lay out the pattern of classes for the entire week which provides us with a framework and reference points, then later in the book, she can simply refer to classes and we know where in the course of a typical week we are. Just a thought. bboy_mn From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Mon May 3 20:07:00 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 08:07:00 +1200 Subject: Snape's reporting methods Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040504080519.029048d0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 97615 While I was reading GOF, yet again. Something registered with me, for the first time about Snape's reporting methods. First, here is the segment in the book .......................................Dumbledore drew his wand out of the inside of his robes and placed the tip into his own silvery hair, near his temple. When he took the wand away, hair seemed to be clinging to it - but then Harry saw that it was in fact a glistening strand of the same strange silvery-white substance that filled the Pensieve. Dumbledore added this fresh thought to the basin, and Harry, astonished, saw his own face swimming around the surface of the bowl. Dumbledore placed his long hands on either side of the Pensieve and swirled it, rather as a gold prospector would pan for fragments of gold.... and Harry saw his own face change smoothly into Snape's, who opened his mouth and spoke to the ceiling, his voice echoing slightly. "It's coming back . . . Karkaroff's too . . . stronger and clearer than ever..." "A connection I could have made without assistance," Dumbledore sighed, "but never mind." He peered over the top of his half-moon spectacles at Harry, who was gaping at Snape's face, which was continuing to swirl around the bowl. "I was using the Pensieve when Mr. Fudge arrived for our meeting and put it away rather hastily. Undoubtedly I did not fasten the cabinet door properly. Naturally, it would have attracted your attention."................................................................ Right, reading this, it had me wondering. I have heard often that Snape is likely to report regularly to Dumbledore, and as these are Dumbledore's personal memories. I wonder if the fact that Snape is not looking at Dumbledore while talking, whether that actually helps him with occulumcy. If he doesn't have a visual memory........................ Thoughts anyone? Tanya h [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon May 3 20:37:40 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 20:37:40 -0000 Subject: Kreacher, Buckbeak and Harry's Brain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "caesian" wrote: > I've looked at posts that have touched on this topic, but I still have some= > questions in > need of informed opinions. I've been wondering about the nature of this me= > ntal link > between Harry and LV - and the timing of Kreacher's injury to Buckbeak. > 3) That LV can't control when Harry will have a vision - but can tell when = > he has had a > vision that upsets him greatly ? just as Harry can tell when LV is feeling = > strong emotions. > He thus knew precisely when Harry had had the vision, and Kreacher was aler= > ted. But how > would they alert Kreacher from outside Grimmauld Place? Annemehr: Ah, yes, I recognise my preferred explanation! Nice and flexible. I also like how it incorporates Voldemort learning to sense Harry's emotions and use them against him -- a juicy plot element! But why assume alerting Kreacher would be difficult? The Protean Charm, which you bring up yourself, seems ideal to me; after all, they would only need a prearranged signal, nothing complicated. Then Kreacher only need keep his phoney knut (waste not, want not) in his filthy loincloth and wait for it to go off. When Harry used the Floo network to ask Sirius about Snape's Worst Memory, Lupin said Sirius was looking for Kreacher because he seemed to be "hiding in the attic again." I think it's a safe bet that this is another time (since the first one at Christmas) that Kreacher was visiting Narcissa. It's quite possible there were other times as well. Certainly, Voldemort would be making good use of him. On a tangeant here, I'm also wary of the fact that Sirius seems to be much happier whenever Kreacher's not around. There's no hint of surliness or depression about him as he explains Snape's pensieve memory to Harry. Caesian: > The reasons I have spent so much time on this third one, include that the o= > ther two have > such disturbing implications for Harry. The inside of his head is no longe= > r safe, even at > Hogwarts? Just how unsafe are Harry's thoughts and feelings? Can Voldemor= > t distort his > mind in more subtle ways when he is not extremely exhausted or upset? Ther= > e is > absolutely no indication that this will stop ? although we do get the re-as= > surance that > Voldemort will have difficulty in possessing Harry. Can't something be don= > e about this? > Who insisted on leaving that scar there anyway > > Caesian - who must remember not to press enter before typing in the post Annemehr: Yeah, I've pressed "enter" after typing in the subject line, too. It just feels right, doesn't it? Anyway, despite the fact that I favor your third explanation, I don't think Harry's head is safe. I think he has only a temporary reprieve since Voldemort was dispossessed of him. I'm hoping for some deliciously creepy invasions into Harry's thoughts in the beginning of book six. JKR has been building up this scar connection steadily all along; it has to be crucial. Can something be done about it? I think something will -- Harry will be taught to live with it somehow (I'll guess not by Occlumency), but the permanent solution won't happen until the defeat of Voldemort. Nice post, BTW. I wish I hadn't snipped that reference to firecrackers and snores waking Harry up, and Voldemort saying "doh!" -- that was priceless. Annemehr From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Mon May 3 12:10:09 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 08:10:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97617 On May 3, 2004, at 1:32 AM, justcarol67 wrote: > > > Carol: > How about a small piece of evidence suggesting that it *isn't* in > Scotland: the Muggle Mr. Roberts' surprise that one of the men at the > campground is wearing a kilt? And Roberts doesn't sound very Scottish, > though I suppose you don't have to be Scottish to live in Scotland. > Roberts is a Welsh name. (Robertson is Scottish. ) I think kilts are only worn on very special occasions. Seeing someone wearing a kilt at a campground might seem a little odd, even in Scotland. Perhaps, the equivalent of spotting a ball gown at a Denny's (chain) restaurant? I am not arguing one way or another as to the location. I't's just that I'm not sure that Mr. Roberts' surprise is very conclusive. Ivogun (Barbara Roberts), who couldn't help commenting on the origin of Roberts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 3 21:43:00 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 21:43:00 -0000 Subject: Three questions for ESE!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97618 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "olivierfouquet2000" Pippin has been particularly active these days, attacking Lupin in almost every posts she wrote, so I feel I must step to his defense.< Oh dear, I hope I'm not being monotonous. But I guess you're not bored I have got three questions to the ESE!Lupin theory. But before anything else, I've got a preliminary question: since when is Lupin on Voldemort's side? I haven't been able to figure that out clearly from Pippin's posts.< Pippin: My guess would be after Lupin left Hogwarts, but at least a year before the Potters died, to account for Sirius's statement that Peter had been passing information for that long. Olivier: >I) Why, if ESE!Lupin is true, didn't Lupin frame Sirius in PoA? If Lupin had been with LV all along, he certainly knew Peter was the culprit, and Sirius innocent (Sirius says DE in Azkaban knew Peter's role). Lupin could have tell Dumbledore Sirius was an Animagus and have him kissed, potentially a good thing for LV.< Pippin: Well, as Lupin says, Dumbledore's trust means everything to him. ESE!Lupin can't risk being sent away from Hogwarts before he's dealt with Peter and Sirius, so he can't afford to let Dumbledore in on his secrets. He has the same problem we do--he doesn't know how much Dumbledore knows already. Any bit of additional data could be the one missing fact that ties it all together. I suspect Lupin did try to eliminate Sirius. The Dementors show up at the Quidditch match just after Harry spots Sirius in dog form in the top rank of seats. In OOP we learn that the Quidditch pitch is visible from the DADA office. So it's possible that Lupin sicced the Dementors on Sirius, though you would have to assume that he can communicate with them while transformed. If he can do that, he may also have summoned them again at the end of PoA to occupy Sirius while Peter made his escape. Olivier: > As I understand it, the last version of ESE!Lupin holds that Lupin has a pathological need to be liked, regardless of his actions. That was supposedly his motive of him not telling Dumbledor. In other words, Lupin is thinking "Oh please, DD like me, I'm good, oh you don't like me enough, I turn to LV." Is that correct?< Pippin: Not exactly. It'd be more like, "If Dumbledore knew what a bad person I am, he wouldn't like me. Nobody who knew what a bad person I am could like me. Good people only like me because they don't know what I'm really like. I deserve to be hated because I am a Dark Creature. I can't control my evil impulses because I'm a Dark Creature. But Dark Creatures could like me for what I really am." I hasten to add that ESE!Lupin is wrong,wrong, wrong in this line of thought, and Harry will ultimately understand this even if Lupin never does. There's room for an ESE!Lupin light, in which Lupin really hates what he's being asked to do by Voldemort, but hasn't got the guts to quit. Not only would he be killed but the exposure of his misdeeds would discredit Dumbledore and set werewolf rights back even further than they are already. In that scenario, Lupin keeps saving Harry because Harry is his only hope. If Harry defeats Voldemort, then Lupin will be freed without having to turn against Voldemort himself. Olivier: >II) If it is, then here is ma second question. What would make Lupin believe if he'll be more liked in a Voldemort-ruled society than in a Dumbledore-ruled society? Who are the people that accept him regardless of his disease: DD, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Sirius, James, the Weasleys... In other words, the Order. Who are those who despise him: Dolores Umbridge, Fudge, Draco, Kreacher, Sirius' mother. In other words those who prize purity of blood above all. What makes him think the champion of racism will accept him and like him? < The purebloodists are ostensibly a pro-Ministry faction, not a pro-Voldemort one. Only Draco is openly a racist and a Voldemort supporter--and his father chides him for it in CoS. Fudge, Umbridge, and Sirius's mother are all *opponents* of Voldemort and supporters of the Ministry. Lucius Malfoy was too, in public. Dumbledore is also a supporter of the Ministry, which puts him on the same side as the purebloods: "The only one against whom I intend to work [...] is Lord Voldemort. If you are against him, then we remain, Cornelius, on the same side." -GoF 36. As for Voldemort, in his speech to the Death Eaters, Voldemort denounces Dumbledore as the champion of Muggles and Mudbloods. He says nothing against other types of half-breeds at all. In fact he claims that the Dementor and the Giants will be part of "an army of creatures whom all fear." Remember what Lupin says about the goblins: "If they're offered freedoms we've been denying them for centuries, they're going to be tempted." Evil in the Potterverse is not easy to identify. It very often masquerades as good and does, in pursuit of its own ends, things which benefit the good. Voldemort works in secret, so any action or pronouncement of his that becomes inconvenient can be attributed to the lies of his enemies and the misinformed. Lupin, who has suffered all his life from the untruths even well-meaning people believe about werewolves, might be sympathetic to such claims. Olivier: > Pippin has also suggested it has to do with the idea of orphan disease: Lupin would feel that the WW is not devoting enough energy to cure his illness. JKR should be quite concerned by that seeing her mother has died, victim of an orphan disease. Indeed, JKR herself has campaigned vigorously in favor of a better recognition by Scotland of the disease that killed her mother. She has also stated that she had written Lupin has a metaphor of someone handicaped. JKR certainly feels that her state does do enough for orphan disease. Has JKR turned to a racist party? Is she likely to?< Pippin: You mean that JKR feels her state does *not* do enough for orphan diseases, correct? I don't think JKR is advocating violence and certainly not racism--the right path is represented by Dumbledore, not ESE!Lupin or Voldemort. But whether disease advocacy groups ought to get involved in wider political issues is a hot topic --the success of the American AIDS advocacy groups with frankly leftist politics has thrown into question the politically neutral stance of more traditional groups. JKR might want to explore this issue through her characters. If Lupin's is to be a cautionary tale about the risks of allying with those whose ultimate goals may be extraneous or even antithetical to one's own, then he needs to be an attractive character, but one whose choices lead ultimately to disaster. Olivier: > III) My third question is somewhat not related and I have asked it before, but still, I haven't read a convincing answer yet. Why did Lupin fought so hard to keep Harry from jumping through the Veil after Sirius?< Pippin: If Lupin knows the Prophecy, then he knows that only Voldemort can kill the one the Prophecy speaks of. If Harry dies by some other agency than Voldemort, he's not the One and it will not help Voldemort if he dies. After killing to keep his cover, Lupin would have blown it for nothing. (Although ESE!Lupin may have revealed more of the Prophecy to Voldemort, that would not keep Voldemort from wanting to hear it for himself. Quite the reverse) Pippin From jferer at yahoo.com Mon May 3 23:22:01 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 23:22:01 -0000 Subject: OT A Favor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97619 Laura Peregrine::It's with the second that I'm asking for help. I thought it would be interesting to add some statistics to the talk about just how big a job Jim Dale had reading the 5 books, so I've added up the total time, and am working my way through all the books counting all the separate voices (so far 221). Does anyone know the word count for the books?" Sorcerer's Stone was about 77,000 words; Chamber of Secrets, about 85,000; Prisoner of Azkaban, 104,000 words; Goblet of Fire was 191,000 words and Order of the Phoenix 255,000 words, rounded of course. These numbers are subject to correction except for Goblet and OOP, which were publisher's announced numbers. It's been said around that Book 6 is not going to continue the trend of ever-increasing length. There was an interview with Jim Dale about recording OOP. IIRC, the recording took about ten days to two weeks, which is pretty good IMO for 23 CD's of audio. One of the many differences between me and an actor is I would have lost my voice completely after about the second day. Jim Ferer --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynn Eddy wrote: > Hi, > > I'm writing to ask a favor (actually 2 favors). I'm one of the > presenters at Convention Alley in Ottawa this summer. I'm leading a > small group discussion on Health and Healthcare in the Wizarding World > and doing a formal presentation titled The Artistry of Jim Dale: The > American Audio Version of the Harry Potter Novels. > > It's with the second that I'm asking for help. I thought it would be > interesting to add some statistics to the talk about just how big a job > Jim Dale had reading the 5 books, so I've added up the total time, and > am working my way through all the books counting all the separate > voices (so far 221). Does anyone know the word count for the books? > I've tried a search on Google with widely varying counts listed only > for the last two books. I've checked with Steve from the Harry Potter > Lexicon and he didn't know either. I can always scan all of them (if I > can ever get my scanner to work right) but if someone already has the > information (or can get it easily), that would be great! > > The second thing I would like to know is the accents that Dale has > used. I'm not from Britain, and though I've asked a British born friend > and fellow Harry Potter friend, she's been in the US so long she isn't > very sure how helpful she will be. > > I know from written sources that Hagrid "comes from" Devon and all the > centaurs have Welsh accents in Dale's version; McGonagall has a > Scottish accent and Seamus Finnigan an Irish one (though if someone > can get more specific that would be great. > > Please email privately at lyyved at e... > > Thanks for your patience with this long and OT message and special > thanks in advance to anyone who can help. > > Laura Peregrine > (known in real life as Lynn Eddy) From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 4 00:00:01 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 00:00:01 -0000 Subject: Snape's reporting methods In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040504080519.029048d0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97620 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > Right, reading this, it had me wondering. I have heard often that Snape is likely to report regularly to Dumbledore, and as these are Dumbledore'spersonal memories. I wonder if the fact that Snape is not looking at Dumbledore while talking, whether that actually helps him with occulumcy. If he doesn't have a visual memory........................ > Fascinating! When I first read your post, I thought you were suggesting Snape was putting his memories in the Pensieve for Dumbledore to read. I see that's not what you meant. But that would provide a perfect reporting method! Snape would have no memories at all of communicating Voldemort's secrets to Dumbledore, while Dumbledore could (apparently) observe everything just as if he had been an invisible presence at the scene. So Snape's conferences with the Order at Grimmauld Place are just for Voldemort's benefit--with Snape telling the Order only what Voldemort wants it to know. Meanwhile any real secrets Snape finds out get communicated via Pensieve. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 4 00:07:23 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 00:07:23 -0000 Subject: But Why does it Have to be Lupin? (was:Kreacher, Buckbeak ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97621 > Now Erin challenges: > > Really? And you think Kreacher would have taken orders from- or even acknowledged the presence of- Lupin? Lupin the half-blood? Lupin the werewolf? < Well, if Mistress Narcissa told him to, he'd have to, wouldn't he. Not what Kreacher had in mind when he defected of course. But do you really think that JKR is going to show even a House Elf getting more than temporary, superficial benefits by joining the Dark Side? That doesn't prove it couldn't have been a Weasley, of course. JKR has plenty of time to casually mention that one of them was at the house during the requisite time period. But right now there don't seem to have been any Weasleys about. If there were, they'd have been in the rescue party. Pippin From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon May 3 14:13:48 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 09:13:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Faking Sirius' death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97622 Susan wrote: > > Uh, GOOD! I really want Sirius to be alive. And I also only read > OOP once, and am just now beginning the series again, starting of > couse with SS, so it might be a while before I get to reread OOP. > But if his name wasn't cleared, then perhaps the theory that he faked > his death could work, though I'm still unclear as to why. > > Susan, desperately wanting to believe that Sirius is alive. Diana responded: He could have faked his own death so he could be more help to the Order. If everyone thinks he is dead then they will no longer be looking for him and he could go about business "dog-like". I mentioned right after OOP came out that maybe Sirius was still alive but was shot down by most everyone. Unfortunately, JKR has made it pretty clear that he is indeed dead. Gina: I think people take JKR's comments too seriously. She is after all trying to sell her books. I have a comedian friend who's biggest pet peeve is when people recite his material at a show or say his punch line before he does. He loves his fans and appreciates the fact they have been to so many of his shows, but he still resents people wanting to ruin it for everyone else. I think it is probably the same with her when people ask irritating questions that no matter how she answers it will give something away. Sirius may be dead, but if he isn't she is not going to say that and if she wants it to be a surprise she is not going to say something like "wait see-eeee" because that is as good as saying he is alive. We just have to wait! Gina - really believing he is alive and that maybe we should not ask her such direct questions about her books. From Ladycat16 at aol.com Mon May 3 15:22:13 2004 From: Ladycat16 at aol.com (Ladycat16 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 11:22:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full moon question for the folklorists Message-ID: <5DB3070E.3FB67217.02576AF9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97623 Hey there. I can't read through all the posts at the moment. By folklore the transfiguration is supposed to only last the night of the full moon, but it also has to be a clear night (or clear view of the full moon). I was taught though that effects of the transfiguration lasts for about three to five days. A day or two prior, the day of, and the day or two after the transfiguration. It seems that he tends to look ragid a few days before then goes missing for a couple of days then arrives back in good health. Tiffany From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 19:39:02 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 19:39:02 -0000 Subject: Rain and Snow (and teeth and eyes) (was re:Hagrid) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97624 Caesian - who hails from the land of Gortex, wrote: >It is a long standing pet-peeve of mine that any wizard or witch is wet, cold or otherwise influenced by the elements. Bubble head charms? Impervious? Harry nearly freezing to his broom in the rain just because they haven't figured out how to imperturb their cloaks? Move over Freg and George, I could be a galleonaire with that bright idea. > Being nearsighted, and knowing how Hermione fixes her teeth without the help of her dentist parents, I've often wondered why HP, or any other wizard, would need glasses. Wouldn't that be great if all us blind folks could just repair our failing eyesight with the touch of a wand and a quick incantation? Susan, who just returned from a visit to her optometrist. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon May 3 20:22:49 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 15:22:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's reporting methods Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97625 Tanya wrote: Right, reading this, it had me wondering. I have heard often that Snape is likely to report regularly to Dumbledore, and as these are Dumbledore's personal memories. I wonder if the fact that Snape is not looking at Dumbledore while talking, whether that actually helps him with occulumcy. If he doesn't have a visual memory........................ Thoughts anyone? Gina: I thought he was talking to the ceiling because the penseive is a bowl and anyone in it would seem to be looking up at the ceiling. Your point was good if that is the case, but I think it just appeared to Harry that Snape was talking to the ceiling because Harry was looking down into the penseive. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon May 3 20:47:19 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 15:47:19 -0500 Subject: another names similarity Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97626 Has anyone noticed that the Slytherin girl is not the only Millicent? In GoF when Sirius is showing Harry the Tapestry he names a Millicent in his family that was a head mistress at Hogwarts. Gina A. Miller [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From msmerymac at yahoo.com Mon May 3 21:25:32 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 21:25:32 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - International vs National In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97627 Steve (bboy_mn) wrote: > Well, we could reopen the old argument about how big the British > wizard world really is. Some say a few thousand, others, like myself, > say a few hundred thousand. Carol: I think the large size of the audience is very much at odds with > what appears to be the number of students at Hogwarts, especially > since the student population includes near-morons like Crabbe and > Goyle. I don't think the figures can be reconciled or explained away > by saying that some British wizard kids don't attend Hogwarts. that > doesn't fit what we know of Dumbledore's philosophy--or Helga > Hufflepuff's, which is probably Professor Sprout's, too. Luckie: I've firmly believed until this point that Hogwarts has about 280 students and the rest of the WW is proportional. I would explain away things like Wizard manufacturing as "just magic." Afterall, there's no mention of other wizarding schools in Britain, only in what we presume to be France and Bulgaria/Easter Europe. However, what is Hogwarts is simply the biggest and/or best school? Instead of other wizards simply NOT going to school perhaps they go to much smaller schools, or even non-boarding (day) schools? I went to a private day school in high school, and it was much larger than some of the others in the area (over 100 students per class, opposed to 20-30). The fact that Hogwarts competes in the Tri-Wizard tournament could be due to sheer size (they would be mis-matched against much smaller schools). Also, perhaps it could be prestige? Think of Hogwarts as the Eton of the Wizarding World (hey, Justin Finch-Fletchley was going to go there!) In American terms, Hogwarts, Beauxbatons and Durmstrang could be like the Ivy league. If other schools and/or educational communities exist (like charter schools, taught by people like Mrs. Weasley?) that could explain how all wizards are educated, how there is a much larger wizarding population than Hogwarts would have us believe, and why it was such a big deal that muggles be educated. Afterall, if there ARE other schools, Salazaar Slytherin could have simply advocated that muggles be taught elsewhere, instead of at Hogwarts, the cream of the crop. ~Luckie, who wishes everyday scenarios could be explained away as "just magic!" From msmerymac at yahoo.com Mon May 3 22:13:01 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 22:13:01 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: <20040503000628.U23409@hedwig.sailordom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97628 Carol: > That's not counting numerous local teams, for example the Wimborne > Wasps, for whom Ludo Bagman was a beater, IIRC the position correctly. > (I definitely remember the black and yellow Quidditch robes and the > bludgers to the head!) Luckie: Speaking of local Quidditch teams, does anyone find it interesting that major British cities don't have teams? Chudley Cannons, Puddlemere United, Wimbourne Wasps? No London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or Manchester teams. In the United States, and, I assume, in Britain, professional teams are located in major metropolitan areas/markets, since people in the metro areas are needed to buy tickets and support the teams! I suppose this could be explained in that it's hard to hide a Quidditch Pitch in London, and Wizards from all over can simply apparate (or sue a port key) to the game. But since Quidditch was formed several hundred years ago, I either think that there must tend to be large concentrations of wizarding populations in the areas that have teams, or, as we can assume from the lack of a Northern Ireland team, the Wizarding World pays little attention to muggle politics/geography. Although the MoM IS located in London, but that could be for practical purposes (so it's close to the Muggle government). ~Luckie, who used to live in the smallest market in the National Football Leauge (US), which was STILL about a million people. From p0tterfan at yahoo.com Mon May 3 15:20:59 2004 From: p0tterfan at yahoo.com (p0tterfan) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 15:20:59 -0000 Subject: portrait in GH -Nature of Movement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97629 Neri: > > Many portraits are hung in public places, such as St. Mungo's and the > MoM. I can't believe Fudge, for example, would have tolerated this > had he known that they report to DD. No matter how rare are hand- > painted portraits, if any wizard who has more than one portrait can > travel between his portraits the secret would be out very quickly, > and this ability would have been common knowledge. There is also that > wink that Dilys gives Harry when he enters St. Moungo's. My strong > impression is that this is a secret between DD and the past > headmasters of Hogwarts, known to very few beside them, but I can't > find definitive canon to either prove or disprove it. > > If we go back to the idea that started this discussion: a portrait in > GH reporting to DD what happened in that fateful night, well, if I > was Voldy the first thing I would have done when entering the > Potters' house is blasting any portrait out of the wall. Unless it is > not common knowledge that they can run and bring DD. Just an observation - perhaps all portraits at wizarding homes etc. are magically bound (like house elves) to not reveal anything they hear or see in the house. This would prevent potentially embarassing information from leaking out. At the same time, all previous headmaster/headmistress portraits are magically bound to help the current headmaster of Hogwarts under all circumstances. As a result, in the second case, the portraits would be informing Dumbledore because they *must* - not sure if it's a *must* or *should* but I think they are atleast honour bound, as is indicated in OotP when Nigellus feigns being tired. At the same time, this would allow portraits to move amongst themselves or nearby portraits - and their freedom of movement could further be limited by wards etc. placed on the house. Just a thought, -p From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 18:50:57 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 18:50:57 -0000 Subject: Prophecy and Choice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97630 Alla: > It is a strong possibility that Harry will defeat Voldie with the > force, which Dark Lord does not know anything about, right? > So, suppose the said power is indeed Love and say "same but in > essence divided" are Voldie and Tom. > > What if Harry somehow will force Tom remember the power of Love? I am > not saying that Harry will love and forgive him (Harry is definitely > not a Saint and to forgive the murder of his parents will be close to > impossible, IMO), maybe Tom will remember that his mother loved him , > something like that? > > What Tom will do after that? Your guess is as good as mine. > K, I'd like to make two points. 1) Harry didn't necessarily forgive PP outright, but he did show him mercy, and IIRC, didn't DD say something about that...re: HP sending LV a follower who's now in debt to not just a "mixed-blood" wizard, but THE young wizard who caused LV's downfall in the first place? Meaning that maybe HP doesn't have to forgive, just show compassion. I mean, Sirius was ready to kill Peter for James and Lily's deaths, plus Sirius lost so much of his life in Azkaban paying for Peter's crimes, that of course he'd want to become the murderer he was accused of being, just to get justice/revenge. Remus was also ready to kill Peter b/c of this, (though with all you out there who like to believe in the ESE!Lupin, perhaps Remus would have had a different motivation for wanting Peter dead). And Harry, who lost his parents b/c of Peter, who never knew his godfather b/c of Peter, and whose godfather had to suffer horribly b/c of Peter (not only prison but guilt and the loss of friends, etc.)nonetheless showed Peter mercy. (On a related note, knowing that Peter gets away at the end of PoA and that Sirius' name doesn't get cleared, that Harry has to continue living w/ the Dursleys, etc., I often wonder (hindsight and all) if "I" would have killed Peter given the chance). Anyways... 2)Tom's not a pureblood either. Maybe that's where the LV/TR reconciliation will come. It seems to me that LV would think that compassion from HP would be revolting and moreover, a sign of weakness, but the part of him that's still TR might be moved by HP's compassion enough to make LV unstable, not so powerful, first crack in the dam, so to speak. Mercy at the hands of his enemies might make him question his actions. And remember, we don't know why TR, not a pureblood, goes on this purist kick in the first place. What is HIS motivation for killing m#%bloods? > Susan (teilani) who really hopes the theories re:ESE!Lupin are wrong. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 19:31:26 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 19:31:26 -0000 Subject: Where do teachers live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97631 Potioncat: " What gets me is whether they [the students] wear Muggle > > type clothing under the robes (as in the movies) or whether the robes > > are their clothes.(as in the Pensieve scene.)" > > > > The Muggle-borns wear Muggle clothes under the robes almost for sure, > > and the wizard borns often don't, is my guess. I think that it's > > little things like this and big things too that offend the > > "purebloods" as they watch Muggle culture influence wizard culture. > > Carol: > That's would be my guess, too, except that IIRC the boys ask Hermione > to leave so they can change to their robes in the first Hogwarts > Express scene in SS/PS, so it sounds as if they intend to take off the > Muggle clothes. I'm guessing that even the pureblood students probably > wear Muggle clothes for the trip to and from the Hogwarts Express but > not the rest of the time--except for shoes, socks, and underwear. The > Muggle-borns probably follow their example after a while--maybe when > they see the lousy job the House Elves have done laundering their > Muggle clothes. ;-) > > Some of the older purebloods apparently skip even the underwear: > Remember old Archie at the Tri-Wizard tournament who won't exchange > his flowered nightgown for a pair of Muggle trousers because he "likes > a nice breeze around his privates"? > > No school uniforms, either; just plain black robes > for everyday wear. > Yeah, I've often wondered about the clothes myself. First of all, I'm pretty sure it gets quite cold in the winter. Surely they'd have something on underneath their robes, esp when they're going outside for Hagrid's class or to watch a Quidditch match. Also, on the convers of the books (US) HP is in jeans and a shirt... while on his broom (SS) and on Buckbeak(PoA). And while we're at it, these aren't children, these are teens. I would imagine, with adolescence coming on, that it might be a good idea for young boys and girls to have clothes on under their robes! Also, I've been thinking about all the adults at the World Quidditch thing who don't know how to dress themselves muggle-style. Perhaps, being adults, presumably employed, but even if not, still surrounded by no one else but other wizards, etc., they maybe forgot how to dress like they did as kids. I mean, they haven't had to wear anything except their robes for years and years (and they live so long!). Furthermore, the adults haven't had to mix with muggles in ages, whereas obviously some of the students at Hogwarts have muggle parents, so these kids certainly would be seen by the other students. And as was mentioned earlier (I may have snipped it out, so sorry), the students did comment on their classmates' new clothes, hairstyles, etc. And in one of the movies, IIRC, doesn't Hermione have on a tie under her robe, a la private school uniforms? From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 19:55:19 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 19:55:19 -0000 Subject: DD & Snape (from Poison intentions) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97632 Maus wrote: >Seems unlikely but in Dumbledore's case perhaps quite possible. Dumbledore certainly seems to know a lot more than he lets on to Harry. No doubt he knows exactly in what way Harry and Voldemort are linked. From this he could have deduced Harry *might* see something like this. But how could he have been so certain that Harry *would* see something like this? Have two people been linked like this once before (the scar Fudge (never) heard of)? Has Dumbledore already been trough all this once before? Or has Dumbledore arranged the whole thing from the start? >I'm a big supporter of MAGIC DISHWASHER, Dumbledore seems to have an incredibly vast knowledge of all that goes on in the world. He could be using that knowledge to arrange just the right circumstances for the defeat of Voldemort. A lot like how Gandalf was able to arrange just the right circumstances for the defeat of Sauron. The fact that we recently decided Dumbledore is not omniscient doesn't change much. Gandalf wasn't omniscient, if he was why did he lead them over the mountain pass of Caradhras? Caesian wrote: Snape is the one character that Dumbledore and JKR seem to be in disagreement on. I may trust Dumbledore, but I trust JKR even more - because she *is* omniscient in the Potterverse. Okay, I know I'm taking these out of context, and I know the JKR/DD disagreement has been rectified, but I want to say that considering DD seems to know so much, I believe there's a case for both sides of the SS redemption issue. DD, who does seem to know much more than he lets on, might figure that Snape, like PP, has an important role to play, *regardless* of whether he's a good guy or a bad guy, similar to (IIRC) what he says about PP. Fine, DD's not omniscient, but still, SS has ties to both sides, has connections to DD, HP James and Lily, etc., maybe DD just wants to keep him close at hand. You know, keep your friends close, your enemies closer. From mnaperrone at aol.com Mon May 3 20:48:10 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 20:48:10 -0000 Subject: Snape's reporting methods In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040504080519.029048d0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97633 Tanya Swaine wrote: > While I was reading GOF, yet again. Something registered with me, for the > first time about Snape's reporting methods. First, here is the segment in > the book > <> > Right, reading this, it had me wondering. I have heard often that Snape is > likely to report regularly to Dumbledore, and as these are Dumbledore's > personal memories. I wonder if the fact that Snape is not looking at > Dumbledore while talking, whether that actually helps him with > occulumcy. If he doesn't have a visual memory........................ > > Thoughts anyone? > > Tanya > h Ally I thought Snape was speaking to the ceiling because his face was "floating" in the surface of the pensieve like a reflection, not because he was looking up at it instead of at Dumbledore. His voice is "echoing slightly" so it makes sense that his physical appearance might also be off-kilter, and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only time Harry sees everything in the pensieve as if he were there when he actually submerges his head in it? From mnaperrone at aol.com Mon May 3 21:21:19 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 21:21:19 -0000 Subject: Good Slytherins was Dumbledore's Army (DA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97634 Gregory Lynn: > > > Draco could be disillusioned by something he sees his father do. > > > > Marianne: > > Draco is more than happy to be a wand-wielding member of Umbridge's > > Inquisitorial Squad. And, he's not at all happy about Daddy being > > sent to Azkaban at the end of OoP. I see him at this point in the > > series as someone who's all fired up on behalf of his father. And, > > frankly, I can't see that anything Lucius could do, including > > killing someone, that Draco couldn't rationalise to himself as a > > necessary action. > > Geoff: > Bear in mind that there /is/ friction between Draco and Lucius. The > former is not at all happy with some of the criticisms and strictures > directed at him in Burgin and Burkes. > > (COS "At Flourish and Blotts" between pp.42-44 UK edition) Ally: Good point, Geoff, I kind of forgot about that. But on balance, I definitely do not believe there is much hope of Draco turning out good for a couple of reasons, some canonical, some not: 1) Draco is probably one of the least developed of the minor characters in the books. There are basically NO contradicting elements to his character, no complexity. He's not even a genuine rival or nemesis at Hogwarts. He's just mean and ridiculous - a bully who can never beat Harry and who gets to be the butt of a lot of jokes. This - when even Pettigrew and Voldie have been given something of a shaded presentation - does not bode well for him, in my opinion. 2) We already have a "will he or won't he be evil Slytherin" in the books in Snape. 3) JKR has said that fans are getting too attached to Draco. Yes, he could die in a sacrificial way, but to get him in the position where he would willingly do that would require more time spent on him than she's done in the first 5 books combined. There are some others, but really, they are just amalgams of the basic idea that there is scant evidence in the canon that Draco would ever actually take a different route than his parents. In my opinion, his is the kind of malice that would quicker lead him to usurp his father in Voldie's army than attempt to break from his father's mold. From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com Tue May 4 02:32:11 2004 From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (SiriusBlack4Eternity) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 19:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] But Why does it Have to be Lupin? (was:Kreacher, Buckbeak ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040504023211.79831.qmail@web14804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97635 Erin wrote: Erin challenges: Really? And you think Kreacher would have taken orders from- or even acknowledged the presence of- Lupin? Lupin the half-blood? Lupin the werewolf? On the contrary, Kreacher hated Lupin along with most of the other members of the OotP. Consider his diatribe in Chapter Six: "...oh my poor Mistress, if she knew, if she knew the scum they've let in her house, what would she say to old Kreacher, oh the shame of it, Mudbloods and WEREWOLVES and traitors and thieves..." (emphasis added) No, the spy communicating with Kreacher would have had to have been someone that Kreacher respected enough to work with. For instance, a Weasley. Kreacher's only beef with *them* is that they don't support pure-blood superiority. But what if one of them secretly did? Now I wonder which Weasley could secretly be Ever-So-Evil? SB4E: Sorry to jump in here, but I had a thought when reading your post. Best I remember, Kreacher said this prior to his disappearances. If, a Black...particularly one he admired like Bellatrix or Narcissa...told him to do what Lupin said without revealing that he was willing, you don't think that he would do so? Just because someone is fighting against a particular "race"...trying to make blood "pure", doesn't mean that they aren't willing to work with them, regardless of the personal feelings of whether that person is good enough to associate with. Just makes them more expendable if the need arises. So it is very plausible that Lupin was/is the Voldy helper/spy in the Order...before and now... SiriusBlack4Eternity --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Tue May 4 03:13:56 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 15:13:56 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's reporting methods In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040504080519.029048d0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040504150807.029070b0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 97636 At 12:00 4/05/2004, you wrote: >Pippin wrote: > >Fascinating! When I first read your post, I thought you were >suggesting Snape was putting his memories in the Pensieve for >Dumbledore to read. I see that's not what you meant. But that >would provide a perfect reporting method! Snape would have no >memories at all of communicating Voldemort's secrets to >Dumbledore, while Dumbledore could (apparently) observe >everything just as if he had been an invisible presence at the >scene. > >So Snape's conferences with the Order at Grimmauld Place are >just for Voldemort's benefit--with Snape telling the Order only >what Voldemort wants it to know. Meanwhile any real secrets >Snape finds out get communicated via Pensieve. > >Pippin Tanya again. Yes, it is interesting. I feel that Dumbledore was probably there, hence Snape looking at the ceiling. But maybe they made it look like Dumbledore had been there, but had left. Also it would not of been likely to have been reported in Dumbledore's office, LV would know what that looked like. That's all I can think of just now. Unless possibly, Dumbledore and Snape have this arrangement that Snape talks alone to himself for real, and places the memory in the pensieve and then Dumbledore takes it as one of his memories. Is that what you meant? Tanya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue May 4 03:33:49 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 03:33:49 -0000 Subject: DD & Snape (from Poison intentions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97637 Susan wrote: Okay, I know I'm taking these out of context, and I know the JKR/DD disagreement has been rectified, but I want to say that considering DD seems to know so much, I believe there's a case for both sides of the SS redemption issue. DD, who does seem to know much more than he lets on, might figure that Snape, like PP, has an important role to play, *regardless* of whether he's a good guy or a bad guy, similar to (IIRC) what he says about PP. Fine, DD's not omniscient, but still, SS has ties to both sides, has connections to DD, HP James and Lily, etc., maybe DD just wants to keep him close at hand. You know, keep your friends close, your enemies closer. vmonte responds: I said the same thing in post # 95076. Here is part of what I wrote down: There is a book a book called "The Art of War," a Chinese military book that is over 2500 years old. (This is the Oldest Military Treatise in the World. Julius Caesar and Napolean Bonaparte read this book; American generals studied it during WWII, and many other military strategists throughout history.) Well anyway, this book has a very famous quote which says: "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer" (not sure of exact quote). If DD is a strategist, then perhaps he has Snape at the school for a different reason altogether. Perhaps it's so that he can keep an eye on Snape. DD may also want Snape at the school so that the children can learn about him, and or people like him. Maybe DD is teaching the kids how to understand the enemy -- because the more the kids are around Snape the more they are going to learn his weaknesses (just like we are learning Voldy's weaknesses). Perhaps DD is teaching the kids how to fight the DE's -- how to use the DEs weaknesses against them. I wonder if Ron, who is also a strategist (example the chess game in COS), will figure out something about Snape? It could very well turn out that Snape is on the good side; but I think that his personality and prejudices are similar to Voldy and the DEs. Having Snape around would be a good way for the children to get an idea about the type of personality that joins Voldy. Many people have ascertained that Snape and DD are working together. But were they working together during POA? It seems to me that Snape was completely out of the loop during POA. I'm starting to think that Occulmency lessons were not so much to teach Harry how to close his mind, but how to read Snape's mind. I wonder if DD meant Harry to see what was in the penseive as well. (I think Snape's anger with Harry during the penseive scene is not due to his humiliation over what Harry saw, but fear over what information might have been acquired from the penseive.) From dk59us at yahoo.com Tue May 4 03:48:09 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 03:48:09 -0000 Subject: Perchance to dream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97638 > Kneasy: > Can't quite fit the high and cold laughter to the "cackle" > that Harry recalls in his replays of GH. Eustace_Scrubb: "a cackle of high-pitched laughter" (POA) vs. "a high, cold, cruel laugh" (PS/SS--remembered as Hagrid tells him about his parents' deaths.) In CoS, Tom Riddle laughs "a high, cold laugh that didn't suit him." In GoF, at the Riddle House, LV's voice is "strangely high-pitched, and cold as a sudden blast of icy wind" and gives "an entirely mirthless laugh, cold as his speech." In the graveyard he emits a "high, cold, mirthless laugh" as well as several entirely adjective-less laughs. In OoTP at the Ministry, LV doesn't laugh but speaks in a "high, cold voice." While I agree that "cackle" doesn't necessarily equate with "cold," the similarity here is the high pitch which seems to be the hallmark of Voldemort's speech and laughter--though interestingly when Tom Riddle's memory does that it "didn't suit him." The sense I get is that Voldemort's laughter is the sort of triumphant but maniacal laughter that we expect from an evil madman. And I suspect that by using the word "cackle" JKR was valuing variety over consistency (thank goodness she didn't use the term "maniacal" The writing critics really would have had a field day with that). And "a cackle" makes it sound like it was a brief snatch of laughter, not incessant cackling. So while I absolutely agree this dream is important, I don't think there was a "second laugher" at Godric's Hollow. (Unless it was TimeTurner!Harry cackling...) Cheers and maniacal laughes, Eustace_Scrubb From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue May 4 03:51:49 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 03:51:49 -0000 Subject: Snape's reporting methods (What DD says is more important.) In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040504080519.029048d0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97639 Tanya wrote: Dumbledore placed his long hands on either side of the Pensieve and swirled it, rather as a gold prospector would pan for fragments of gold.... and Harry saw his own face change smoothly into Snape's, who opened his mouth and spoke to the ceiling, his voice echoing slightly. "It's coming back . . . Karkaroff's too . . . stronger and clearer than ever..." "A connection I could have made without assistance," Dumbledore sighed, "but never mind." vmonte responds: What I found interesting about this bit of info is what DD says, not how Snape reports info. It's almost as if DD is saying, "Yeah, thanks for telling me the obvious, Snape." Maybe, Snape is giving DD useless information. I also wonder why DD placed this insignificant memory in the penseive to study. If the information Snape was giving him was useless, why place it in the penseive? Is he studying the information, or Snape? This just really leads me to believe that the penseive will come back in book 6 and 7. If DD knows/suspects that he will die, he may leave behind a bowl full of memories for one of the children. vmonte From nakedkali at yahoo.com Tue May 4 04:08:47 2004 From: nakedkali at yahoo.com (Sea Change) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 04:08:47 -0000 Subject: CHP 17 DISCUSSION, II: Education Decree Number Twenty-Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97641 Elisabeth (a_rude_mechanical) queried: E arm >~Explain to me why the Weasleys never mentioned the Longbottoms E arm >to their children? Don't you think that it would have come up at E arm >some point? Why is this a secret?~~ _________________________ Sea Change responds: At first blush this doesn't seem remarkable, as Molly and Arthur were overheard by Harry as he was going downstairs to get Ron's rat-tonic. In this conversation, they were talking about keeping vital information from Harry. So, with their own kids, they may not have even struggled, and censored automatically. After the events of that book, they might have told all of their kids about Sirius, but maybe not. And, after GoF even Ginny might seem old enough. They probably didn't know that DA!Ron & Ginny. Do you think if they did, they might have told? ______________________ More Elisabeth: E arm >~~Now, where have we seen the Vanishing Spell before? Rowling E arm >tellsus-Snape keeps using it to clean out Harry's potions. E arm >Hmmm .is this coming back? There seems to be a LOT of cleaning E arm >up and redding out going on in this book, don't you think? E arm >Symbolism? Or not? What do you think~~ ____________________ Sea Change replies: The cleaning *I* most noticed, probably because JKR set me up for it, was the effects of the hats and scarves Hermione was leaving all behind. Elf-magic seems to be different from human magic, so perhaps the cleaning up here is one which must be done by elf-elbow-grease or at least require a physical presence. I, like many listies, wonder canonlessly about where Evansesco'd stuff goes. ______________________ Elisabeth further asks: E arm >~~Does DD's secret keeping then not extend to the Floo Network? E arm >If DeeJay had indeed caught Sirius, would she have then found E arm >Grimmauld Place? I'm confused as to how exactly the Floo E arm >Network functions and don't understand how anyone could catch E arm >you just by finding your head.~~ _______________________ Sea Change puzzles over this one: In real life, I can wear a blindfold and actually end up pinning a tail near the donkey's behind. Other partiers may make the attempt, not because they are any more certain to succeed, but because the reward is high enough. If Umbridge had caught Sirius, that certainly would have been the case. Perhaps the Floo Network isn't so much a hole in the Fidelius as it is someone spinning you around and pointing you in the approximately right direction. There's certainly a lot of rotation and revolutions happening by anything Floo! Sea Change, who wonders if 'pulling a rabbit out of a hat' could be considered a practical use of Floo powder. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue May 4 04:38:38 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 04:38:38 -0000 Subject: Why Ron is selected as Prefect. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97642 I think that DD makes Ron a Prefect because up to this point in the series he has really taken a back seat to Harry. (Harry also realizes that he should not feel jealous towards Ron because this is the first time Ron has ever received recognition. I love that Harry notices Ron gingerly wrapping his badge before placing it in his trunk. Whether Ron admits it or not, he is proud of the recognition.) Ron needs to learn how to become a leader (if you believe in the chess game theory). The Prefect badge was given to give him confidence -- to make him feel good about himself. Besides, it seems as though Prefects pay closer attention to their surroundings (I guess because their job is to keep order) more than your average student needs to. Ron may start to piece things together while he is out patrolling the school grounds. (I'm reminded of how Percy was always wandering the halls of the school.) From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 4 06:53:52 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 06:53:52 -0000 Subject: Dates and calendars - Sept 1 Always on Sunday. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: Geoff: > > I didn't originally raise this point, but perhaps I will now. Where > > does the support for 01/09 having been a Sunday for five years come > > from? bboy_mn; > Using my not very trustworthy memory, I will ask you recall that the > day of the week of the Hogwarts Express train ride is never specified, > but the first day of classes is always on a Monday, and that day > appears to always be the day after the train ride. > > If the train ride is Sept 1, and the day after is always Monday, then > logically, we have seen Sept 1 fall on a Sunday for every book. > > I'm not so sure we could consider this a flint, it's probably more > like 'artistic license'. Geoff: Having looked into this a bit further, there is evidence of a day conflict. I wonder whether Jo Rowling just hasn't followed up the exact days and has made references to the day of the week without checking back or checking a calendar (unlike Tolkien who went to great lengths to get his Middle Earth dates to agree). This is perhaps one place where her attention to detail has slipped. Maybe the days of the week are not as important as hidden clues and red herrings. :-) The conflict is in GOF and OOTP: GOF: `"Today's not bad.... outside all morning," said Ron who was running his finger down the Monday column of his timetable, "Herbology with the Hufflepuffs and Care of Magical Creatures . damn it, we're still with the Slytherins..."' (GOF "Mad-Eye Moody" p.171 UK edition) OOTP: `Professor McGonagall was now moving along the table handing out timetables. "Look at today!" groaned Ron, "History of Magic, double Potions, Divination and double Defence Against the Dark Arts.... Binns, Snape, Trelawney and that Umbridge woman all in one day! I wish Fred and George'd hurry up and get those Skiving Snackboxes sorted " "Do mine ears deceive me?" said Fred, arriving with George and squeezing on the bench beside Harry. "Hogwarts prefects surely don't wish to skive off lessons?" "Look what we've got today," said Ron grumpily, shoving his timetable under Fred's nose. "That's the worst Monday I've ever seen."' (OOTP "Professor Umbridge" pp.203-04 UK edition) 01/09/94 (GOF) was a Thursday so presumably they ought to have started lessons on the Friday. 01/09/95 (OOTP) was a Friday, so with the weekend, they would have started on the Monday so there is a discrepancy here between the two acocunts. In PS, COS and POA, no days are mentioned when timetables are given out. However, in PS, the following bit of canon occurs: `Friday was an important day for Harry and Ron. They finally managed to find their way down to the Great Hall for breakfast without getting lost once. "What have we got today?" Harry asked Ron as he poured sugar on his porridge. "Double Potions with Slytherins," said Ron ' (PS "The Potions Master" p.100 UK edition) So what? Well, if they have more then one Potions lesson a week ? and I would think that they have - and the first lesson of the year is on a Friday, it implies that the timetable kicked in during the week. However(!) 01/09/91 was a Sunday so lessons should have started on a Monday.... This does assume that pupils don't have time to settle in and have "induction" lessons just to get them going again in the new school year. One further piece of evidence on the question of JKR being inaccurate about days of the week, is the following case. There was a thread about the date of Dudley's birthday and, in message 89687, I pointed out that the day of Harry's 11th birthday was wrong. In the book, 31/07/91 is given as a Tuesday when, in the Real World at least, it was a Wednesday. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 4 06:58:55 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 06:58:55 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97644 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barb Roberts wrote: Ivogun: > Roberts is a Welsh name. (Robertson is Scottish. ) I think kilts are > only worn on very special occasions. Seeing someone wearing a kilt at > a campground might seem a little odd, even in Scotland. Perhaps, the > equivalent of spotting a ball gown at a Denny's (chain) restaurant? Geoff: I would disagree. It's not uncommon to see kilts being worn, particularly in country districts. I have had many Scottish holidays over the years and have often noticed this. I would agree with other posters though that I feel that "Roberts" does not give a Scots ambience to the QWC final venue for me...... From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue May 4 09:45:43 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 09:45:43 -0000 Subject: Percy is a true Weasley (very long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97645 I was reading the Yule Ball Incident between Ron and Hermione yesterday, and I was suddenly struck by how similar this incident is to the fight between Percy and his dad. It also led me to remember some other Weasley incidents. When Ron discovers Hermione with Viktor Krum, he gets overwhelmed with jealousy and becomes extremely nasty to her. Let's review some of the things he tells her : 1. She's fraternizing with the enemy (ie : she's a traitor). 2. Viktor intends to use her to spy on Harry. 3. Viktor wants her to help him, not Harry. I can't help but be reminded of what Arthur Weasley tells Percy (according to Ron and the Twins) when he discovers that Percy was made Junior Assistant to Fudge : 1. Percy is serving the wrong side (Fudge instead of DD) (ie : Percy is a traitor). 2. Fudge intends to use Percy to spy on Arthur and DD. 3. Percy should be helping DD, not the Ministry. Now, what's *very* funny in my idea is that we seem to *automatically* consider that Ron was wrong while Arthur was right ! Why would that be so ? 1. Because Ron had his reasoning clouded by jealousy while Arthur was supposedly thinking straight ? I'm not so sure. Just because he was mad with jealousy doesn't mean Ron couldn't be right : after all, Viktor *could* very well have intended to use Hermione against Harry ! And just because Arthur *seems* okay with his lowly position at the Ministry doesn't mean he wasn't mad with jealousy when he learned that his son had made it way higher than himself in barely a year. 2. Because we trust Hermione and we don't trust Percy ? Yep, that would be more like it. We trust Hermione to see the truth of people and to not be swayed or deceived, while we see Percy as a git that can be flattered into doing anything stupid. Well, it's true that in *this* instance, Percy happens to be wrong, but how could he not be, considering the little info he's had access to, and the surroundings he's been living in ? Let's see : - As Harry painfully discovers in OoP, pretty much nobody will take his word on LV's return, and even havind DD as a back-up isn't enough to cut it. So why do we expect Percy to know better ? - After 2 years as Prefect and one year as Head Boy, Percy must have noticed DD's tendency to keep things secret and to reveal only what he sees fit. That wouldn't necessarily entice Percy into trusting DD with his life and career. - It doesn't seem like Percy was told much about what happened behind the scene in GoF. For him, the news of LV's return probably came out of the blue. His family expects him to follow them blindly, but it doesn't look like they gave him any good reason to. - Percy has been working at the MoM for a whole year. It's quite normal that his loyalty should shift from DD to Fudge. And since Percy wasn't there when Fudge denied the naked truth, and wasn't apparently told about it before the Awful Row (and even then ?), he's got simply no reason to doubt Fudge's ways. 3. Because Hermione is a nice girl, Arthur is a nice father figure, and Percy is a pompous git ? Yes, for sure. After all, Percy has *always* been a pompous git, right ? And Arthur has always been a nice father figure, right ? So when we have to choose between the two, we side with Arthur. But how nice was it to crumple Percy's happiness with such a horrible *supposition* that Fudge *only* did it to spy on Arthur ?! Arthur doesn't *know* that, and he's definitely got no *proof* of that ! So who ever gave him the *right* to say that to Percy ?! I see you coming : "But it's obvious ! Why else would Fudge take Percy ?" After all, Percy just got questioned for not noticing how strange Mr Crouch had been acting all year. I agree. But I'll add that Percy was *the last person* to be able to notice and to have the right to report Mr Crouch's strange behaviour ! Percy started working with Mr Crouch barely a few weeks before Crouch was Imperioed and started misbehaving. How was Percy supposed to know that this wasn't Mr Crouch's normal way of reacting to stress and tiredness ? He didn't *know* the man well enough. And even if he did suspect something, who was he to go and report the man, what would it make him look like, how valid would his testimony have been ? Percy was a fresh out-of-school assistant, who was he to go and blab on his respected boss ? On the other hand, there are several people who *should* have noticed Mr Crouch's strange behaviour and who *should* have done something about it ! First of them being ... Fudge himself ! And I think that's why Percy wasn't punished : because the MoM didn't want to bring anyone's attention to the fact that they hadn't done their job concerning one of their own *again*. They'd already made a huge mistake with Bertha Jorkins, they probably weren't ready to admit doing it again with Mr Crouch so soon. As for taking in Percy as his own Junior Assistant, I can find at least one good reason for Fudge to do that : Percy doesn't seem to have done such a bad job at filling in for Crouch. The boy is extremely capable, brilliant, talented and responsible. He's a true golden boy. *And* he's got ambition, unlike his father. Why then shouldn't Fudge take him in ?? 4. Percy said horrible things to Arthur, so he must be wrong. Ah yes, the famous "we wouldn't be so poor if you weren't so lousy". I agree, it's horrible. But I'm not so sure it isn't true. All the Weasleys admit that Arthur was held back because his views aren't popular with the Ministry. So yes in some way, Arthur did keep his family in poverty. But of course, it's all a matter of integrity : we can't expect Arthur to renounce his opinions just in order to get more money, can we ? Well no, of course, and I'm sure Percy would agree with that, when he's not upset. But we have to remember that when he said that, Percy was a) thoroughly disappointed that his father wan't proud of him for landing such a good job, and b)quite rightfully angry at his father's insinuations that Percy had been manipulated. And just like Ron said terrible things to Hermione when upset, so did Percy say horrible things to his father at that moment. After all, it is very likely that Percy suffered a lot as a kid from being poor, so it's logical that it shoud all come out under stress. As for the "I've had to battle your lousy reputation ever since I got in the Ministry", I'm afraid it's quite possibly true. We see how Malfoy considers Arthur and his family. If most people at the Ministry hold the same view of Arthur, Percy *must* have suffered from being Arthur's son quite a few times. And the fact that he feels like he's the only one who feels that way, and he can find no support whatsoever at home, cannot help. So as far as the Awful Row goes, I'm of the opinion that the guilt is shared, and that Percy acted just like another Weasley boy we know might have done in the same conditions. As for his stubborness in refusing to relent and forgive and make up with his family, I'm afraid it's simply another Weasley trait. All throughout Ron and Harry's fallout in GoF, we see Ron fighting *against* his natural instinct, and refusing point-blank to talk to Harry as long as Harry doesn't apologise, even though Ron is the one who started it all. If there hadn't been the First Task, the situation could have lasted forever. Not even Hermione's negociation efforts brought any good. Even Arthur doesn't show the good exemple to his son. When he comes accross Percy at work, he ignores him just as much as Percy ignores Arthur. We learn of Molly trying to talk to Percy, but I can't remember reading about *Arthur* going to Percy's. And if Arthur, the adult, the father, can hold a grudge against his son, why should we expect Percy, the youth barely out of adolescence, to do any better ? About the jumper incident : we learn that Percy returned his Christmas present unopened, which was mean, I agree. (But is it any meaner than Harry shouting at Ron when Ron comes to *check on him* in the Common Room, even if that forced Harry to cut his conversation with Sirius short ?) But I'll point that we don't know anything about the *circumstances* surrounding this mean act. For example : was there a letter attached to the package ? If there was, and Percy opened it first, and it contained one more tactlessly phrased intimation to stop sulking and come back home (the Weasleys aren't too good at diplomacy, are they ?), I wouldn't be overly surprised that Percy would just send the whole thing back where it came from. And finally, I'd like to point out that we can't dismiss all the proofs we had before OoP of the love Percy has for his family. In CoS, he's sick with worry when Ginny disappears. In GoF, he loses all pretence and runs into the sea to check on Ron at the end of the Second Task. Percy obviously loves his family, as any good Weasley does. And it's precisely why he sends the Infamous Letter to Ron in OoP : to help Ron choose what Percy thinks is the good way. Because we have to remember one last thing : the Weasley kids have always been taught to stand up for their beliefs. And isn't that what Percy is doing ? Just because his beliefs are wrong doesn't mean he's evil. Percy *thinks* he's doing what's good, that's all that matters. Percy is a true Weasley. That's even precisely why he's in trouble now. Do I see a way out ? Yep, even though the way JKR talked about Percy during the last chat doesn't give me much hope it will happen. If Percy is indeed a true Weasley, then he will show up on his parents' doorstep any day, now that the truth has been revealed. He might not be able to formulate any kind of excuses, but that shouldn't be a problem. I expect Arthur and Molly are waiting for the slightest sign from Percy to take him back. Congratulations to those who've read all this :-) What do you think ? Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue May 4 09:59:47 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 09:59:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's reporting methods (What DD says is more important.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97646 "Dumbledore placed his long hands on either side of the Pensieve and swirled it, rather as a gold prospector would pan for fragments of gold.... and Harry saw his own face change smoothly into Snape's, who opened his mouth and spoke to the ceiling, his voice echoing slightly. "It's coming back . . . Karkaroff's too . . . stronger and clearer than ever..." "A connection I could have made without assistance," Dumbledore sighed, "but never mind." " vmonte wrote : > What I found interesting about this bit of info is what DD says, > not how Snape reports info. > It's almost as if DD is saying, "Yeah, thanks for telling me the > obvious, Snape." Maybe, Snape is giving DD useless information. Del answers : The way I see it, it's not Snape that DD accuses of giving useless information, it's *the Pensieve*. vmonte wrote : > I also wonder why DD placed this insignificant memory in the > penseive to study. If the information Snape was giving him was > useless, why place it in the penseive? Is he studying the > information, or Snape? Del replies : That bit of information was *not at all* useless nor insignificant at the time it was given ! The fact that the Dark Mark had been growing stronger was a very important piece of information indeed !! What *is* useless, though, is for the Pensieve to make the connection between Harry (who's just come back from the Graveyard and seen LV's rebirth) and that particular piece of information, NOW, when it's obvious that the Marks had been growing clearer because LV was back and getting stronger. That's indeed a connection DD could have made without assistance. Del From greatraven at hotmail.com Tue May 4 10:24:43 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 10:24:43 -0000 Subject: Implications of talking by fireplace Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97647 Since the WW doesn't have "fellytones" and seems to be in contact by fireplace/floo powder, how would you contact friends just for a chat? Their teenagers are so deprived! ;-) Imagine it: evening in a wizard household. "Ron, get your head out of that fireplace, you've been on for two hours now and I'm waiting for an important floo from the MoM! No, I don't *care* if you're talking to Harry about the party!" It wouldn't happen, of course - it's way too uncomfortable to be kneeling in the fireplace, as Harry finds in OoP. Or would they just send owls back and forth? Not very practical for the average householder, like the Weasleys, say, with only one little owl (Pig) and one elderly owl (Errol)... And no fun, either. Sue, in a fit of whimsy. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 4 11:42:20 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 11:42:20 -0000 Subject: Implications of talking by fireplace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97648 "sbursztynski" Sue wrote: > Since the WW doesn't have "fellytones" and seems to be in contact by > fireplace/floo powder, how would you contact friends just for a chat? > Their > teenagers are so deprived! ;-) Imagine it: evening in a wizard > household. > "Ron, get your head out of that fireplace, you've been on for two > hours now > and I'm waiting for an important floo from the MoM! No, I don't > *care* if you're > talking to Harry about the party!" It wouldn't happen, of course - > it's way too > uncomfortable to be kneeling in the fireplace, as Harry finds in OoP. Potioncat: I've always assumed that they could use a small flame (candle, lantern) sort of like a phone, but now that I think of it, it's never been done that way in canon. There is a more efficient means of communication, but we haven't been shown it. Personally, I'd like for my teens to have to kneel at the fireplace to talk to their friends....they wouldn't be hogging it so much, I dare say! Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 4 12:23:19 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 12:23:19 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - International vs National In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Meredith" wrote: > Steve (bboy_mn) wrote: > > Well, we could reopen the old argument about how big the British > > wizard world really is. Some say a few thousand, others, like > myself, > > say a few hundred thousand. > > Carol: > I think the large size of the audience is very much at odds with > > what appears to be the number of students at Hogwarts, especially > > since the student population includes near-morons like Crabbe and > > Goyle. >snip < > Luckie: > I've firmly believed until this point that Hogwarts has about 280 > students and the rest of the WW is proportional. >snip< Potioncat: Well, it seems to me that where numbers are involved, JKR has been vague or downright inaccurate. And I for one would never have noticed any of the discrepencies being somewhat number challenged myself. In the RW you might be able to say if this number at school then this number for population, or if this number attend an event the this number to support it, but I doubt JKR gave that any thought at all as far as consistency goes. She doesn't seem to have done that with acutal dates (although I wonder if she even had a specific year in mind for the books.) nor with phases of moon or location of planets. I sometimes wonder it the detailed timelines that are so fun to read are based on information that is inaccurate or meaningless (I hope not!) Potioncat From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue May 4 13:50:34 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 13:50:34 -0000 Subject: Other schools ? (was : Re: Quidditch World Cup - International vs National) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97650 Luckie wrote: > Afterall, there's no mention of other wizarding schools in > Britain, only in what we presume to be France and Bulgaria/Easter > Europe. However, what is Hogwarts is simply the biggest and/or > best school? Instead of other wizards simply NOT going to school > perhaps they go to much smaller schools, or even non-boarding > (day) schools? Del replies : Aha ! Now *this* is a theory I like. It would indeed explain quite a few things. However, there are a few problems with it : 1. If Hogwarts is the best school, what are Crabbe and Goyle doing there ? I guess we would have to resort to corruption to explain their presence... 2. We never *ever* hear anyone saying anything that could imply there are other schools in Britain. Nobody ever mentions their going to another school, or their kids going to different schools, or anything. 3. How are the Hogwarts students selected ? Obviously they don't apply for Hogwarts, or there wouldn't be any Muggle-borns there. It can't be a matter of money, or the Weasleys wouldn't be there. It could be a matter of talent I guess, but we never see the kids being tested before they go to Hogwarts, so there would be a need for some kind of magical talentometer (the Magic Quill that writes down the names of the newborn wizards ?), or *something*. Luckie wrote : > The fact that Hogwarts competes in the Tri-Wizard tournament could > be due to sheer size (they would be mis-matched against much > smaller schools). Also, perhaps it could be prestige? Think of > Hogwarts as the Eton of the Wizarding World (hey, Justin Finch- > Fletchley was going to go there!) In American terms, Hogwarts, > Beauxbatons and Durmstrang could be like the Ivy league. Del replies : That would nicely explain why the TWT is restricted to those 3 schools. It is simply impossible to imagine that those 3 schools are the only ones in Europe ! I mean, the idea that there would be only one school for all of Eastern Europe is simply ridiculous. Or else there's something to magical genetics that has yet to be explained. Luckie wrote : (snip) > Afterall, if there ARE other schools, Salazaar Slytherin could > have simply advocated that muggles be taught elsewhere, instead of > at Hogwarts, the cream of the crop. Del replies : Oooh ! Good one ! However, I had this feeling that the Muggle-born conflict ran deeper than that. Slytherin created his monster to *kill* the Muggle-born sutdents. He didn't just want them out of his school, he actually wanted them out of the WW. Moreover, why didn't he go and create his own school then ? Del From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 4 14:01:25 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 14:01:25 -0000 Subject: Implications of talking by fireplace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97651 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Potioncat: > Personally, I'd like for my teens to have to kneel at the fireplace > to talk to their friends....they wouldn't be hogging it so much, I > dare say! Geoff: It certainly led to a heated exchange between Harry and Ron.... From LWalshETAL at aol.com Tue May 4 15:19:16 2004 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:19:16 EDT Subject: Implications of talking by fireplace Message-ID: <1ce.2018ffd1.2dc90e74@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97652 "sbursztynski" : > Since the WW doesn't have "fellytones" and seems to be in contact by > fireplace/floo powder, how would you contact friends just for a chat? > James and Sirius had that two-way mirror. It would seem that that would be a lot more comfortable and easier to use. Laura Walsh LWalshETAL at aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 4 15:20:52 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 15:20:52 -0000 Subject: DD & Snape (from Poison intentions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: Vmonte: >>Many people have ascertained that Snape and DD are working together. But were they working together during POA? It seems to me that Snapewas completely out of the loop during POA.<< I think the people who were being kept out of the loop in PoA were Fudge and the committee. As far as Snape could ascertain when he looks at the Map in Lupin's office: 1) Lupin, who hasn't taken his potion, is on his way to the willow 2) Dumbledore is with Fudge and the Committee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures 3) [time-travelling] Harry and Hermione are elsewhere on the grounds If Snape goes to Dumbledore, Fudge will insist on knowing what's going on. He'll assert his authority and take the matter out of Dumbledore's hands. In any case, Dumbledore wouldn't want the committee to deal with a werewolf loose on the grounds. Snape might, but can he trust the committee? What if they are in league with Voldemort? (In fact one of them is.) So Snape decides to deal with Lupin himself. Snape, too, is granted an extraordinary degree of license by the Headmaster. We may guess that just as the staff know all about Lupin being a werewolf, they know all about Hermione's time-turner. Fudge probably doesn't know. I doubt he's routinely involved in deciding who gets time-turners. So when Dumbledore says to Snape, "Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione can be in two places at once..." he is simultaneously confirming to Snape that Harry did have something to do with Sirius's escape, telling him how it was done, and warning him to shut up about it. That sounds like Snape is in the loop to me. Snape might have remembered seeing Harry and Hermione on the map at that point and *not* seeing Sirius Black and Ron. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 4 15:27:02 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 15:27:02 -0000 Subject: Implications of talking by fireplace In-Reply-To: <1ce.2018ffd1.2dc90e74@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97654 > "sbursztynski" : > > Since the WW doesn't have "fellytones" and seems to be in contact by fireplace/floo powder, how would you contact friends just for a chat? Laura: > James and Sirius had that two-way mirror. It would seem that > that would be a lot more comfortable and easier to use. But the two-way mirrors are not in common use. I think the lack of an easy way for kids to communicate unsupervised by adults, is one of the things that gives the WW its old-fashioned feel. There's no "youth culture" in the WW. Pippin From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 4 15:30:20 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 15:30:20 -0000 Subject: Percy is a true Weasley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97655 Thanks, Del, for a fascinating post. I've always felt uneasy about Arthur's reaction to Percy's promotion. It is NOT a kind thing to suggest to your son, when he comes to you glowing with pride at having secured such a good job, that he has only obtained it because he can be manipulated. There does seem to be a tendency among wizard parents/grandparents, especially the pure-bloods - to put down their offspring - think Draco/Lucius, Neville/Gran, Sirius/Mrs. Black. I am surprised at Arthur, though. Sylvia (who can remember some really monumental family rows, which eventually got themselves sorted). From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 4 15:43:39 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 15:43:39 -0000 Subject: Percy is a true Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97656 Ladyrambkin 2000 (Sylvia) wrote: > There does seem to be a tendency among wizard parents/grandparents, > especially the pure-bloods - to put down their offspring - think > Draco/Lucius, Neville/Gran, Sirius/Mrs. Black. I am surprised at > Arthur, though. > > Potioncat: Not implying anything, but the previous post and this one sort of puts this quote in a different light: OoP, US, chapter 26 p591 "That is just as well, Potter," said Snape coldly, "because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the the Dark Lord is saying to the Death Eaters." Potioncat From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue May 4 15:59:04 2004 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 15:59:04 -0000 Subject: But Why does it Have to be Lupin? (was:Kreacher, Buckbeak ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97657 Erin asserted that Kreacher would not have taken orders from or cooperated with an ESE!Lupin, giving some perfectly good canon to illustrate the depth of Kreacher's hatred for werewolves and half- bloods, both of which describe Lupin. Pippin came back with: > Well, if Mistress Narcissa told him to, he'd have to, wouldn't he. > Not what Kreacher had in mind when he defected of course. But > do you really think that JKR is going to show even a House Elf > getting more than temporary, superficial benefits by joining the > Dark Side? Erin says: Joining? Defecting? Ha! Kreacher has *been* on the Dark Side all along. He never tried to keep it a secret that he hated Sirius and everyone not dedicated to Pure-Blooded superiority just like his precious dead Mistress. But I'm allowing myself to get distracted. Your point is, he has to do what Narcissa tells him. And then SB4E chimes in with: Best I remember, Kreacher said this prior to his disappearances. If, a Black...particularly one he admired like Bellatrix or Narcissa...told him to do what Lupin said without revealing that he was willing, you don't think that he would do so? Just because someone is fighting against a particular "race"...trying to make blood "pure", doesn't mean that they aren't willing to work with them, regardless of the personal feelings of whether that person is good enough to associate with. Just makes them more expendable if the need arises. Erin: SB4E, that's a very good point about being willing to work with a particular group you wish to subjugate or exterminate and simply consider them more expendable. And I think it holds true for most of the DE's (though it does raise the question of why the heck half- blooded Lupin is working for Voldy in the first place. I thought the guy was supposed to be *smart*.) But I don't think Kreacher thinks that way. Everyone (Dumbledore, Harry, Sirius, Hermione, etc...) seems to agree that the little toe- rag has gone 'round the bend. All the years of living alone, taking mad orders from Sirius's mother's portrait have unbalanced him. And the form his insanity takes is hatred directed towards those his "Mistress" would not have approved of. Mistress doesn't like you? Then Kreacher won't associate with you. Reasoning doesn't enter into it. And as for the point you both made that Kreacher would have to do what Narcissa told him, it doesn't hold water. Kreacher has always done exactly what Kreacher wanted to do. Being a Black doesn't get you squat. Hence this canon from Sirius in Chapter Six: ******************************************* "I see Tonks isn't on here. Maybe that's why Kreacher won't take orders from her- he's supposed to do whatever anyone in the family asks him...." ******************************************* So Kreacher isn't magically bound to obey family members. He can pick and choose as he likes. For years, the only allegiance he's felt has been to his dead "Mistress". If Narcissa had insisted that Kreacher work with half-bloods and werewolves, then Narcissa would have lost Kreacher's respect just the way Sirius did, and Kreacher would no longer have felt obligated to obey her. It follows that she must not have done that. Pippin kindly concedes that: > That doesn't prove it couldn't have been a Weasley, of course. > JKR has plenty of time to casually mention that one of them was > at the house during the requisite time period. But right now there > don't seem to have been any Weasleys about. If there were, > they'd have been in the rescue party. Erin: And that in itself is suspicious. There are an awful lot of Weasleys in the Order, and yet not one of them makes it to the Ministry? What are the odds? Surely at least one of them had to have been purposely "unavailable" so as not to have to fight his Death Eater friends? As for the no Weasleys hanging about to contact Kreacher, distance means next to nothing in the WW. The traitor could have apparated in, told Kreacher, and been gone in 10 seconds. Or as Annemehr pointed out, Narcissa could have used a protean charm to contact Kreacher and we could be arguing pointlessly (except for the fun factor). --Erin From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Tue May 4 16:38:02 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 16:38:02 -0000 Subject: Dates and calendars - Sept 1 Always on Sunday. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > If the train ride is Sept 1, and the day after is always Monday, then > logically, we have seen Sept 1 fall on a Sunday for every book. > > I'm not so sure we could consider this a flint, it's probably more > like 'artistic license'. JKR starts the school year on a Monday so she > can lay out the pattern of classes for the entire week which provides > us with a framework and reference points, then later in the book, she > can simply refer to classes and we know where in the course of a > typical week we are. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Or maybe it's neither a Flint nor Artistic License but a clue to life and everything? Perhaps the days aren't changing because the *year* isn't changing. Perhaps they are living the same year over and over and over and over again until someone (presumably Harry) gets it (whatever it is) right. There is, after all, a fairly significant time travel theme in the books, and a repetition theme as well. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue May 4 14:30:02 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 14:30:02 -0000 Subject: 3Q's for ESE!Lupin(now Like Me Lupin) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97660 Olivier: > As I understand it, the last version of ESE!Lupin holds that Lupin has a pathological need to be liked, regardless of his actions. That was supposedly his motive of him not telling Dumbledor. In other words, Lupin is thinking "Oh please, DD like me, I'm good, oh you don't like me enough, I turn to LV." Is that correct?< Pippin: Not exactly. It'd be more like, "If Dumbledore knew what a bad person I am, he wouldn't like me. Nobody who knew what a bad person I am could like me. Good people only like me because they don't know what I'm really like. I deserve to be hated because I am a Dark Creature. I can't control my evil impulses because I'm a Dark Creature. But Dark Creatures could like me for what I really am." Susan(me): Where did the idea that Remus needs to be liked come from? I could see someone describing PP like this, but not Lupin. Look at who his best friends are. James Potter, who's arrogant, talented, good- looking, and confident. Sirius Black, who's arrogant, talented, good- looking, and confident. Then PP, who's what? Needy, scrawny, cowardly, and hangs around with JP, SB, and RL more (IMHO) for protection from bullies and the like than anything else. He's seen near the cool kids but isn't one. I mean, Lupin's supposed to be smart and talented, just not as arrogant as JP and SB. Just because he doesn't reprimand James and Sirius for screwing with SS doesn't necessarily mean he's afraid to stand up to them, especially out of a need to be liked. I remember being in situations in grade school and high school where I could have stuck up for the little guy in front of my friends, but I sometimes didn't. (And it's not something I'm proud of, similar to Remus' regret that HE didn't stop SB and JP from screwing with SS). Maybe part of Remus enjoyed watching SS being teased. It's not like SS was very friendly/nice while a student. From lizvega4 at yahoo.com Tue May 4 15:08:35 2004 From: lizvega4 at yahoo.com (lizvega4) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 15:08:35 -0000 Subject: The thing they would miss most. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97661 Who decided what to take away from each of the champions during the second task of the triwizard tournament? Harry would miss his best friend, Ron, the most. That makes sense. And Fleur missing her sister, I can buy that too. I just don't understand how Hermione could've been the thing Victor would miss most, when they'd only known each other a couple of months, and Cedric missing Cho the most? I don't know, maybe, I'm undervaluing teen romance. But, again, who decided to take these people away, and how did they know it was what each champion would miss most? From dk59us at yahoo.com Tue May 4 17:48:48 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 17:48:48 -0000 Subject: Other schools ? (was : Re: Quidditch World Cup - International vs National) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97662 Del wrote: > 1. If Hogwarts is the best school, what are Crabbe and Goyle doing > there ? I guess we would have to resort to corruption to explain > their presence... But who's getting their palms greased to let them in? Dumbledore? McGonagall? or the school governors--who don't seem to take a very active role except when they suspend Dumbledore in CoS at Lucius Malfoy's behest? Nah, I don't think Crabbe and Goyle bribed their way in. Of course, they may admit "legacies" even at the best schools. I would suspect that (if Hogwarts isn't the _only_ school in the UK...although I think JKR has said it is) Crabbe, Goyle and even Neville might have made it in on the basis of their families' long tradition of attendance and support. Of course, just about everyone at Hogwarts except the muggle-borns might be considered "legacies." Then again, they may invite everyone whose name has been recorded by the Magic Quill. Maybe Crabbe and Goyle are bursting with magical potential...but haven't chosen to make good use of it. While Neville has chosen to do his best to develop whatever small measure of talent his gran has allowed him to believe he has. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From lkotur at yahoo.com Tue May 4 17:26:44 2004 From: lkotur at yahoo.com (Damit Lazarus) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 17:26:44 -0000 Subject: DD=Harry?! In-Reply-To: <20040503000853.38782.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97663 animallover_11: > If DD is Harry that would explain how he knew what happened at GH because he was there. There has also been discussions around about how Dobby was able to go to help Harry..well Dobby eventually was working for DD. DD is always very careful in choosing his words to explain situations. > My first thought was Dumbledore could not be Harry since Dumbledore does not have the scar. However, when Harry finally disposes of Lord Voldermort, the scar may just disappear. Larry D.I.L. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue May 4 18:19:33 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 18:19:33 -0000 Subject: Are Myrtle and Percy working for the Order? And school contracts. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97666 Are Myrtle and Percy working for the Order? Although Myrtle is a bit of a flake, she has been very helpful to Harry. She helped him during CoS and GoF. Is it possible that Myrtle is working under DD's orders? Is it possible that DD knew that the kids were hanging out in the girl's bathroom during CoS? Percy knew that Ron was hanging out in the girl's bathroom. And Percy was also lurking near the Slytherin dormitories when Ron and Harry were disguised as Crab and Goyle. I always found it funny that the movie version kept Percy in this scene, since it would have worked just as well without him. (Yet, in the SS movie, they gave away much of Neville's dialog to other characters, and removed him from the forest scene altogether.) Is it possible that DD gave Percy specific guard/patrol duties? If DD does indeed know pretty much everything that goes on at the school, wouldn't he make use of Percy and Myrtle's natural nosiness? Remember how DD did not look at Harry during the OOTP trial? Well, Percy didn't either. Did DD tell him not to look at Harry? What if Percy is working for DD? DD wouldn't want Voldemort to see that information either. (I know we are made to believe that Percy doesn't look at Harry because he doesn't want to have anything to do with him.) Is it possible that one of the protection spells on the school, forces those who work there to abide by the headmaster's wishes? Does the school see the Prefects and Head boy/girl as employees (keepers of order) to the school? Was Quirrel having difficulty following Voldemort's orders during SS/PS because of this protection spell? (Remember when Harry heard Quirrel crying in one of the classrooms?) Is this why fake Moody taught the children a valuable lesson on how to protect themselves? And why Snape hasn't killed Harry yet(just kidding)? Is this also why Snape is forced to protect Harry, and why he is always trying to get him expelled (since the spell has no effect outside of the school)? I wonder why it didn't work for Umbridge? Perhaps you are only bound to the headmaster if you sign a contract to teach at the school (much like Hermione's DADA contract). Since Fudge was responsible for placing Umbridge at the school, I'm sure she did not make any agreements/contracts with DD. I know this is all speculation, and that there are a lot of holes. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 4 18:39:15 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 18:39:15 -0000 Subject: But Why does it Have to be Lupin? (was:Kreacher, Buckbeak ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97667 Erin: >> If Narcissa had insisted that Kreacher work with half-bloods and werewolves, then Narcissa would have lost Kreacher's respect just the way Sirius did, and Kreacher would no longer have felt obligated to obey her. It follows that she must not have done that. << Pippin: Kreacher doesn't have to take *orders* from ESE!Lupin. The orders come from Narcissa. ESE!Lupin is just the messenger. Erin: >> Or as Annemehr pointed out, Narcissa could have used a protean charm to contact Kreacher and we could be arguing pointlessly (except for the fun factor). << Pippin: Well, she could, if she trusted Kreacher. But would she? A half-mad House Elf who betrays his lawful master, a master known to be a friend of Albus Dumbledore? What if it's all a trick? Better let Kreacher know that there's someone keeping an eye on him, eh? No need to tell him who, but when the time comes, he'll get a signal from somebody in the house. Could it be a Weasley? Sure! But you'll have to explain why a Weasley would work with a Malfoy . Pippin From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 4 19:20:46 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 19:20:46 -0000 Subject: Dates and calendars - Sept 1 Always on Sunday. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97668 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote: Gregory Lynn: > Or maybe it's neither a Flint nor Artistic License but a clue to life > and everything? > > Perhaps the days aren't changing because the *year* isn't changing. > Perhaps they are living the same year over and over and over and over > again until someone (presumably Harry) gets it (whatever it is) right. > > There is, after all, a fairly significant time travel theme in the > books, and a repetition theme as well. Geoff: Yes, but if they are living the same year over and over again, the same things would happen again and again, perhaps with tiny changes. It reminds me of the Star Trek: Next Generation episode "Cause and Effect" when the Enterprise gets caught in a causality time loop and repeats the same actions. The crew are vaguely aware of "deja vu" and manage to break the loop using Data's memory but the events are very close to a repeat each time. Since a completely different set of events happen each year, it can't be a rerun. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Tue May 4 17:02:03 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 17:02:03 -0000 Subject: Dates and calendars - Sept 1 Always on Sunday. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97669 gregory_lynn wrote: > Or maybe it's neither a Flint nor Artistic License but a clue > to life and everything? > > Perhaps the days aren't changing because the *year* isn't > changing. > Perhaps they are living the same year over and over and over > and over again until someone (presumably Harry) gets it > (whatever it is) right. > > There is, after all, a fairly significant time travel theme in > the books, and a repetition theme as well. I really hope this is the case, or at least some version of the time travel theories, so Sirius won't have to be dead. I hate thinking about how awful his life turned out to be, and it just seems so sad that after spending his twenties in a horrible prison, after losing his best friend, having the whole WW against him, etc., that his life is cut short before he has a chance to make up for the lost time. Susan (padfoot lover). From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue May 4 19:27:06 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 19:27:06 -0000 Subject: Percy is a true Weasley (very long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97670 Del compares Ron's dismay at Hermione's fraternisation with Krum with Arthur's dismay at Percy's great new job at the MoM: > Now, what's *very* funny in my idea is that we seem to > *automatically* consider that Ron was wrong while Arthur was right ! > Why would that be so ? Annemehr: Great post. But actually, I was disappointed in the way Arthur handled things (while wondering if the version Harry heard was accurate). I could certainly see that Arthur would be afraid for his son going to work "in the lion's den," and that he would feel the need to give some sort of warning, but I do also see Percy's point of view which you've laid out so clearly. Del: > So as far as the Awful Row goes, I'm of the opinion that the guilt > is shared, and that Percy acted just like another Weasley boy we > know might have done in the same conditions. > And finally, I'd like to point out that we can't dismiss all the > proofs we had before OoP of the love Percy has for his family. > Just because his beliefs are wrong doesn't mean he's > evil. Percy *thinks* he's doing what's good, that's all that matters. > Congratulations to those who've read all this :-) What do you think? > > Del What I think is that you're right on the mark. I especially take the point about sending back the sweater (which I snipped) -- we really don't know what was behind that. Unless Percy's been under deep cover (which I don't believe, though who knows?), I still wish he hadn't returned the sweater, refused to speak to his mother, ignored his father's hospitalisation, or written what he did about Harry. Still, I don't condemn him for those things, I see them as stemming from his hurt feelings combined with being cut off from his family. It's as though, to assure himself that he's done the right thing, he reinforces his position even more emphatically. I do think the rift will be repaired. Well, I have high hopes. Percy has always done what he thought was right, and now that he knows Voldemort is back, his idea of the right thing to do will have to have changed. Forgiving his family and accepting theirs in return seems entirely possible to me, even if it's difficult and awkward. Annemehr who's always liked all the Weasleys, including Percy and especially Arthur From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 4 20:52:08 2004 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 20:52:08 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97671 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Meredith" wrote: > Carol: > > That's not counting numerous local teams, for example the Wimborne > > Wasps, for whom Ludo Bagman was a beater, IIRC the position > correctly. > > (I definitely remember the black and yellow Quidditch robes and the > > bludgers to the head!) > > > Luckie: > > Speaking of local Quidditch teams, does anyone find it interesting > that major British cities don't have teams? Chudley Cannons, > Puddlemere United, Wimbourne Wasps? No London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or > Manchester teams. In the United States, and, I assume, in Britain, > professional teams are located in major metropolitan areas/markets, > since people in the metro areas are needed to buy tickets and support > the teams! I suppose this could be explained in that it's hard to > hide a Quidditch Pitch in London, and Wizards from all over can > simply apparate (or sue a port key) to the game. But since Quidditch > was formed several hundred years ago, I either think that there must > tend to be large concentrations of wizarding populations in the areas > that have teams, or, as we can assume from the lack of a Northern > Ireland team, the Wizarding World pays little attention to muggle > politics/geography. Although the MoM IS located in London, but that > could be for practical purposes (so it's close to the Muggle > government). > > > ~Luckie, who used to live in the smallest market in the National > Football Leauge (US), which was STILL about a million people. It's not that difficult to explain. Most of the largest cities in the UK apart from London -- Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield etc. -- are or were centres of heavy industry and got off the ground only with the industrial revolution in the 19th century, by which time the teams in the Quidditch League had already been established. When the teams were formed most Britons were living in the countryside. Appleby Arrows is the one founded last, and that was in 1612. It's one of the things that's so fascinating about history, how survival of the fittest applies to towns as well. According to a source on the web, the ten oldest cities in the UK are 1) Ripon, 866 2) London, 1066 3) Edinburgh, 1124 4) Chichester, 1135 5) Derby, 1154 6) Lincoln, 1154 7) Oxford, 1154 8) Nottingham, 1155 9) Winchester, 1155 10) Exeter, 1156 And only London and Edinburgh make it to the list of the ten largest. I also tend to think that wizards and witches steered clear of Muggle population centres to avoid persecution. Alshain From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Wed May 5 01:16:15 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 01:16:15 -0000 Subject: DD=Harry?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Damit Lazarus" wrote: > animallover_11: > > > If DD is Harry that would explain how he knew what happened at GH > because he was there. There has also been discussions around about > how Dobby was able to go to help Harry..well Dobby eventually was > working for DD. DD is always very careful in choosing his words to > explain situations. > > > > My first thought was Dumbledore could not be Harry since Dumbledore > does not have the scar. However, when Harry finally disposes of > Lord Voldermort, the scar may just disappear. > > Larry > > D.I.L. There's no way we can know for sure until the end, but I can think of several things to point out 1. DD's reaction during the Fake!Moody revelation. When Fake!Moody mentioned the Marauder's Map, DD acted with genuine surprise. Also, if DD was Harry, he would already know that Fake!Moody was Crouch Jr. and that Professor Quirrell was bad in the first book, etc. 2. There would also have to be an explanation for DD's brother and for the account of DD taking his Newt exams (mentioned in book 5) I think with Prof. Marchbanks. If DD were Harry, then Marchbanks would have recognized that during these Owls. 3. They share no physical characteristics (eyes, hair, etc...) Kristen From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 01:55:11 2004 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 18:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eagle Owls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040505015511.53561.qmail@web60105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97673 owlery2003 ponders: In Harry's GOF dream about flying to the Riddle House, he's carried there on the back of an eagle owl. On other occasions, we are referenced to "eagle owls" returning to the owlery at Hogwarts. We know Draco has an eagle owl. Any thoughts on Draco being an informational conduit for LV? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 02:09:28 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 19:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD=Harry?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040505020928.44996.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97674 Kristen: 2. There would also have to be an explanation for DD's brother and for the account of DD taking his Newt exams (mentioned in book 5) I think with Prof. Marchbanks. If DD were Harry, then Marchbanks would have recognized that during these Owls. 3. They share no physical characteristics (eyes, hair, etc...) animallover_11: But we have seen the possiblity of Harry being a metamorph (his hair is always the same even when it is cut very short). If Harry is a metamorph it is possible that Marchbank would not recognize him because he looks different. Does anyone have any ideas why DD knew exactly what both Harry and Ron witnessed in the Mirror of Erised? It was my understanding that only the person looking in saw anything. As for DD being surprised about Moody:Crouch and the map, it is possible that through the time travel some situations will have been changed. Just as if Tom was able to come back in CoS. Would there not be Tom at 16 and VD what ever age he is both living and I am sure that would change how things would play out. animallover_11 From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed May 5 03:31:57 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 03:31:57 -0000 Subject: portrait in GH -Nature of Movement (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97675 > bboy_mn: > > Let's look at what we know. > > All portrait characters appear to be able to move between portraits > at the location where they are hung. > > So, we have now establish that portrait characters can move from > portrait to portrait, but it seems inferred that Hogwarts portrait > characters in general can not leave Hogwarts castle. > > Now Dumbledore adds a new concept, portrait characters who have > portraits in other locations can move between those portraits. Based > on the wizard who ran to find the injured Mr Weasley, once at the > new location, they are again able to move from portrait to portrait. > > This second character's movement ability (location to location) > seems a reasonable extension of the first ability to move (local > portrait to local portrait). I see no reason to restrict it to > Headmaster/headmistresses. > > Portraits of this nature are not going to be very common. Hand > painted portraits are usually only found in rich people's house and > public buildings (government offices and museums). > > Logically,if you have a portrait character that you don't trust, you > wouldn't put him in a location where he couldn't overhear or see > much. > bboy_mn Now Eustace_Scrubb: The whole subject of magical portraits (and potentially other art) interests me a lot. Perhaps if there were art courses taught at Hogwarts, we'd know more about this by now--come to think about it, maybe that's one reason art courses _aren't_ taught, to limit Harry's and therefore the readers' knowledge of how this works. Your conclusions make a lot of sense, especially that magical oil portraits are probably only available to well-to-do individuals and institutions. I wonder what the other properties of these portraits are? The portraits appear to be complete representations of their subjects. That is, they are not merely physically accurate images, they also move as the subjects did and, most importantly, have all of their subjects' knowledge, prejudices, emotions, etc. They can carry on conversations with living persons and with other portraits. They can apparently be harmed by the living and they definitely know fear. What would have happened to the Fat Lady had Sirius' knife struck her image before she was able to flee? If he'd prick'd her, would she bleed? The portraits can also be bound to act in certain ways despite their own wishes...Phineas Nigellus reluctantly obeying Dumbledore being an example. Is this a matter of honor...do the subjects voluntarily agree to serve the future Headmasters when the portrait is commissioned? Is a spell used to ensure such behavior? If a portrait's behavior can be constrained magically and the portrait-person can be physically harmed through use of a muggle weapon like a knife, would it also be logical to believe that a wizard could employ spells on an existing portrait for evil ends. We already know that portraits can serve as spies or at least that they know things that could be damaging in the wrong hands. Could Lucius, for example, use Imperius or Crucio on a portrait of Phineas Nigellus in order to extract information about the activities of Dumbledore and the Order? There's no canon on this, as far as I know, and I'm just trying to work out in my mind whether this is a logical extension of canon. And I'd love to hear other thoughts about this. Even if we only accept the clear canon, I think that the wizards and witches who create such portraits must be highly skilled and I'd love to know more about them and the process involved. (And what could they do with landscapes?) Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb hoping this doesn't disappear into a 5-hour Yahoo gap! From carmenharms at yahoo.com Wed May 5 03:38:13 2004 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 03:38:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER 17 DISCUSSION, II - Floo and Fireplace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_rude_mechanical" wrote: > At around midnight, the twins finally leave. Harry puts away the > essay, and whose head should pop into the fireplace but Sirius > Black's. >Just then, he looks alarmed, turns and faces the wall, and then >vanishes. In the fire a > hand appears, DeeJay's. So she DID >intercept the owl! As she gropes around, trying for Sirius' head, >the Three take off for the dorms. > > ~~Does DD's secret keeping then not extend to the Floo Network? If > DeeJay had indeed caught Sirius, would she have then found > Grimmauld Place? I'm confused as to how exactly the Floo Network > functions and don't understand how anyone could catch you just > by finding your head.~~ snazzzybird sez -- I wondered about that too. Sirius was speaking from #12 Grimmauld Place, which was protected by the Fidelius Charm. If Umbridge had gotten hold of his hair -- well, okay, he probably would have been able to get free. But what if he hadn't? If he had withdrawn his head from the fireplace with her hand still entangled in his hair, would she have been able to "trace the call" so to speak? Might she have popped out into the kitchen of Order of the Phoenix headquarters -- a location which does not exist for her, because she has not been told about it by the secret keeper? If so, the Fidelius Charm might have rendered her confused, groggy; Sirius could then have hustled her out to the front door and launched her onto the street. Then as she wandered, in a confused state, along the streets, the charm might gradually lift, leaving her wondering "Where am I? How did I get here? Am I going mad?" Perhaps St. Mungo's would have been the next stop for the radiant Dolores. --snazzzybird, who's fascinated with the whole fireplace communication and travel process From mandy_croyance at msn.com Wed May 5 03:13:27 2004 From: mandy_croyance at msn.com (Amanda) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 03:13:27 -0000 Subject: Inaugural address and Mandy Croyance on Assumption Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97677 First of all, let me introduce myself. I am a new member by the nom de plume of Mandy Croyance. I have been an avid Harry Potter fanatic for over a year now and my lunacy shows no sign of dissipating. I am a budding fanfiction author. However, do not look for any works by me yet as I am in the process of stringing together an epic worthy of the genre and it is nowhere near done. I fall into the category of `Mature Teenagers who might also enjoy the site', but I promise although this would be considered my juvenilia, nothing I have to say will be juvenile. So, without further ado: my first piece (which is not a proper essay by any standards and therefore does not deserve a proper title). Why do we always believe what we are told? Could it be because Harry typically believes the word of those he `trusts' and as he is the protagonist we are inclined to identify with him? Not to mention that it is far easier to do so as that is subconscious than consciously search for evidence that proves otherwise. The truth is that the characters, like normal people, are not always correct. The too are subject to inherit bias and misinformation. Some simply lie. We know Hagrid was wrong when he says that there wasn't a bad wizard that didn't come from Slytherin. Peter was a Gryffindor. Therefore why do we still hold onto the belief that all Death Eaters were once Slytherin? Their behavior dramatically argues otherwise (Bellatrix LeStrange's unfailing loyalty for example). Why would Voldemort solely choose Slytherin anyhow? That would limit his options as different types of people think in different ways and thus would prove useful resources. Even if they were all Slytherins, how do we know our perception of Slytherins is correct? Never having spent any great degree of time in their presence, our characters only know the outward attitudes of a small portion of the members in their year. Throughout the third book we are led to believe Sirius Black is a dangerous murder who is out to finish destroying the Potter family by killing Harry. Obviously this is nearly the opposite of true. However, not even Dumbledore really knows the full extent of the situation and Remus most certainly does not know at all. Similarly in the fourth book it is not true that Professor Moody is a rough, but good and helpful ex-Auror. At least not the Moody we were led to believe was Moody. In fact through his actions most readers came to like him very much before the revelation that he was Barty Crouch Jr.: Death Eater extraordinaire. What is to stop Rowling from doing other such things? J.K. Rowling is a right connoisseur of the Red Herring. If we have learned anything it is that things are rarely as they seem. We must also realize that what characters think of situations and each other is also no necessarily true. I'm not suggesting that Voldemort is actually good and Dumbledore is evil or anything so radical, but how do we know all of our information is valid and from a viable source? How do we know Crabbe and Goyle are idiots? How do we know that OotP is the first place we've encountered Tonks? And perhaps Slytherin has been misquoted somewhere along the line. We can't say without a shadow of a doubt that such things have been proven or disproved. Out side of the box is where we need to roam. If Hagrid was wrong about `all dark wizards' then perhaps he was wrong about something else. Dumbledore's own judgment was called into question and generally proven faulty in the fifth book. We can no longer assume that because Harry Potter agrees with something we should nor can we afford to buy into an ideology just because it is supported by the protagonists. Who knows? Maybe we really are rooting for the wrong side. Mandy Croyance "Some say one must put things into perspective. I encourage taking things out of it." ? Mandy Croyance (I love quoting myself) From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 01:56:29 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 18:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: <1083664827.8226.37803.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040505015629.35200.qmail@web13521.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97678 I have often wondered, WHY and HOW did Voldemort get so bad? We know he had rough beginning. People have also speculated about the lack of love in his life. But, do you think that it is that ALONE that made him get so evil? I really feel that there is more to LV's story than we know so far. I think this will also come into play at the final showdown between HP and LV. There are a lot of parallels between Hitler and LV. Both disliked their fathers, both went to boarding school, and both hated a particular group of people that they had ties to. Now, there are also many differences, and I am not trying to say that JKR was trying to do a parallelism. I just wonder where the turning point happened for LV. Any thoughts? ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From caesian at yahoo.com Wed May 5 03:57:05 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 03:57:05 -0000 Subject: Eagle Owls In-Reply-To: <20040505015511.53561.qmail@web60105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97679 > owlery2003 ponders: > > In Harry's GOF dream about flying to the Riddle House, he's carried there on the back of an eagle owl. On other occasions, we are referenced to "eagle owls" returning to the owlery at Hogwarts. We know Draco has an eagle owl. Any thoughts on Draco being an informational conduit for LV? > Caesian replies: I love the owl references in the series - I think there is alot to be inferred from them - but this particular reference is one of the most vague and cryptic (and fun!). The Eagle Owls certainly seem to have an association with the Slytherins, at least in these instances. It may be that Harry rides an Eagle Owl in his dream because of the one he has seen bringing Malfoy sweets. This very non-literal part of the dream could be symbolic - such as when Draco becomes Snape in his dream in PS. Or, it may be that the Malfoy Owl really did bring word from Hogwarts. I would have assumed, given the news the owl was bearing (that Barty Crouch Sr. had been killed by Voldemort's super-secret DE undercover at Hogwarts), that it was sent by Imposter!Moody - because I do not think other Death Eaters, or their children, were intended to know about the plan. (Draco was not even told the details of the CoS plot initiated by his own father.) However, I don't know of another Eagle Owl in the story - and there seems to be little in the way of coincidence in the Potterverse. Although I think it is unlikely that Draco sent word to LV in this case, I think it is clear that Draco reports to his parents, who have used that information to interfere at Hogwarts, and perhaps to do other things. So far, he hasn't been very effective - but perhaps that will change. Several important messenger owls, such as the one bringing the letter to lure DD away in PS, and the one that probably brings news to Imposter!Moody in GoF are seen at too great a distance to tell their breed. It may have been that an Eagle Owl used by Voldemort, which came to Imposter!Moody bringing word of Crouch Srs escape, had waited to return news once he had been apprehended. The Hogwarts owls are most often Tawny. They bring Harry presents from Hagrid in CoS, and fly past the Dursleys window in PS (perhaps bearing news to Mrs. Figg of Harry's imminent arrival). There are also Errol the moulting feather duster, and Pig, who is a Scops Owl? Percy's owl Hermes is a handsome Screech Owl. A Screech Owl delivered Harry's Improper Use of Magic Notice in OotP, but a Barn Owl delivered the notice from that same office in CoS. Arthur Weasley used a Barn Owl (which collided with the window) to send Harry word from the Ministry. Sirius's owl, and the Howler owl were not identified, although the second did screech loudly. And then there's Hedwig the White, who would be a bit more suspicious if it weren't for her temper, and the fact that she is a she. Caesian - who counts the one time she dreamed about an owl as her only Harry Potter dream From caesian at yahoo.com Wed May 5 04:10:34 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 04:10:34 -0000 Subject: What Portraits Know (was Re: portrait in GH...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > > > Now Dumbledore adds a new concept, portrait characters who have > > portraits in other locations can move between those portraits. Based > > on the wizard who ran to find the injured Mr Weasley, once at the > > new location, they are again able to move from portrait to portrait. > > > > Logically,if you have a portrait character that you don't trust, you > > wouldn't put him in a location where he couldn't overhear or see > > much. > > bboy_mn > > Now Eustace_Scrubb: > I wonder what the other properties of these portraits are? The > portraits appear to be complete representations of their subjects. > That is, they are not merely physically accurate images, they also > move as the subjects did and, most importantly, have all of their > subjects' knowledge, prejudices, emotions, etc. They can carry on > conversations with living persons and with other portraits. The portraits can also be bound to act in certain ways despite their > own wishes...Phineas Nigellus reluctantly obeying Dumbledore being an > example. Is this a matter of honor...do the subjects voluntarily > agree to serve the future Headmasters when the portrait is > commissioned? Is a spell used to ensure such behavior? > We already > know that portraits can serve as spies or at least that they know > things that could be damaging in the wrong hands. Could Lucius, for > example, use Imperius or Crucio on a portrait of Phineas Nigellus in > order to extract information about the activities of Dumbledore and > the Order? > > Eustace_Scrubb Caesian replies: I have been wondering about this too, especially since the highly gaurded secret of the prophesy was revealed to Harry in front of a large group of portraits, all of whom were paying very careful attention. Even Phinneas, who was probably at Grimmauld Place, could be included because we don't know for sure that he wasn't lurking just out of sight. I don't see any reason to suspect that the Prophesy is no longer a big deal, or that LV is no longer interested in finding the exact wording from another source - like Prof. Trelawny - or I suppose one of these portraits. Dumbledore must have a good reason to trust these portraits very highly. Caesian From caesian at yahoo.com Wed May 5 04:39:24 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 04:39:24 -0000 Subject: Harry Legilimens (was Re: Kreacher, Buckbeak and Harry's Brain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97682 Caesian wrote: >I've been wondering about the nature of this mental link between Harry and LV - and the >timing of Kreacher's injury to Buckbeak. > > Annemehr: > Ah, yes, I recognise my preferred explanation! Nice and flexible. I > also like how it incorporates Voldemort learning to sense Harry's > emotions and use them against him -- a juicy plot element! > > On a tangeant here, I'm also wary of the fact that Sirius seems to be > much happier whenever Kreacher's not around. There's no hint of > surliness or depression about him as he explains Snape's pensieve > memory to Harry. > > Annemehr Caesian responds: After rereading that section of OotP on the bus this morning, I wonder if another permutation isn't possible - I wonder if Harry actually helped to trigger the vision with his own ability for Legilimency. Bizzare? From O.W.L.S beginning page 725 - OotP US HB: "* I know this *, Harry thought, though his brain felt torpid and slack. He could visualize a heading, in Hermione's handwriting: ... He gazed blankly at the back of Parvati's head again. If he could only perform Legilimency and open a window in the back of her head and see .... He closed his eyes, trying to see them [Hermione's notes], trying to remember. ... *Think* he told himself, his face in his hands ... And then he has the vision of Sirius. In answer to your comment about the negative correlation between Kreacher's presence and Sirius's good temper, I ran across the Kreacher poison thread while searching for precedence with this post, and I admit I am intrigued. People seemed to blow it off as Sirius's nature, and I certainly think that's possible - but just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not after me, right? Maybe he's a hot-head plus befuddlement draughts. I can't rule it out. Caesian - who still favors the scenario wherein LV timed his attack on Harry to the end of exams - because he's Evil like that. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed May 5 04:49:57 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 04:49:57 -0000 Subject: FILK: Explain, Celebrity Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97683 The latest installment from H.M.S. Dumbledore Explain, Celebrity (PS/SS, Chap. 8) To the tune of Refrain, Audacious Tar, from Gilbert and Sullivan's H.M.S. Pinafore Text and MIDI at: http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/pinafore/web_opera/pn11.html Dedicated to Pippin THE SCENE: HARRY attends his first Potions class under the guidance of SEVERUS SNAPE SNAPE: I am Professor Snape. This is a class in Potions. I would be able to teach you all manner of interesting things, were it not for the fact that all of you are incorrigible dunderheads. (SNAPE points at HARRY) Potter! What is 395 times 412? Who was the 23rd President of the United States? How many pints are there in a gallon? What is the capitol of Estonia? For what film did Robert Donat win his sole Academy Award? Where would you look if I told you to find me a bezoar? HARRY: 162, 740. Benjamin Harrison. Eight. Riga. "Goodbye Mister Chips". (hesitation) I can't answer the last question, sir. SNAPE: Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter? .Clearly, fame isn't everything . (music) Explain, celebrity, The use of wormwood Can you define for me What's meant by monkshood? Obtain, celebrity, For me a bezoar It's plainly clear to see That you must read more Explain, celebrity, Your gross stupidity You think your name will serve To wholly tame us, No leeway you deserve For being famous! DRACO, CRABBE & GOYLE He thinks his name will serve To wholly tame us, No leeway he deserves For being famous! HARRY: Proud Snapey, I don't know't I'm just a young guy! I have not learned by rote Your text on fungi! SNAPE: I will not take such guff >From Harry Potter Too many past rebuffs Came from your father HARRY (aside): Cruel Snapey disappoints! >From me, he takes a point! He's really got his nerve I make him see red The Potions Prof observes With sheerest hatred. SNAPE (aside): He's really got his nerve He makes me see red I James' son observe With sheerest hatred! Explain, celebrity, The use of wormwood HARRY: Proud Snapey, I don't know't I'm just a young guy!! SNAPE/HARRY He thinks he'll Potions brew/I could now bezoars brew With just a wand flick/For I'm his scapegoat Through him shall I renew/But he shall not subdue Long-buried conflicts/Me with his Snape gloat - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From caesian at yahoo.com Wed May 5 04:56:30 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 04:56:30 -0000 Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97684 I've been thinking about Kreacher, and Narcissa. Narcissa Black, sister of Bellatrix and cousin of Sirius - would certainly have known from childhood where Grimmauld Place is located. Kreacher, by his very appearance and the nature of the information he did provide (which suggested fairly intimate knowledge of order members), betrayed the importance of Grimmauld Place to the DEs and LV. Now, I know that unless Dumbledore personally tells you "where" Grimmauld Place is - you could press your nose up against the serpent-shaped door knocker and still not see it. But the charm extends only to the house itself, I believe. This is consistent with Tonks and the gaurd being so cautious when out on the steps and in the square, and why the owls are kept inside so they are not swooping around. I also believe that, even if you do know the secret of Grimmauld Place, you can't apparate into the house. Why else would Order members be ringing that stupid door bell all day long? No one ever Apparated/Disapparated into or out of the house that I recall. Perhaps it is possible to use floo powder for more than a chat, but the floo network can be watched - and even if they cannot "see" where you exit, it would still arouse suspicions. Now that the war is on, it seems extremely dangerous to continue to use Grimmauld Place as headquarters - DEs lurking in the bins outside and such. Does anyone else think the Order will move headquarters? Where to? Caesian - who hopes it will be the nursery where Snape keeps his twins From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed May 5 05:01:47 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 05:01:47 -0000 Subject: DD=Harry?! In-Reply-To: <20040505020928.44996.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97685 animallover_11 wrote: As for DD being surprised about Moody:Crouch and the map, it is possible that through the time travel some situations will have been changed. Just as if Tom was able to come back in CoS. Would there not be Tom at 16 and VD what ever age he is both living and I am sure that would change how things would play out. vmonte responds: I agree with your thoughts about time travel. I think that DD is changing history, and that certain situations have changed from the way they played out the first time around. Many posters believe that time travel is not central or important to the Harry Potter storyline. And some posters believe that in the Harry Potter Universe, time travel can never change history. They believe that, for example in WW history, there were always 2 Hermione's and 2 Harry's running around during the saving of Buckbeak and Sirius. They believe that the Hermione and Harry of the future never changed history because they had always been a part of the past as well. (Are you confused yet?) I can understand why people hate the idea of time travel. I'm not crazy about time travel either, it just seems to fit what I've been noticing in the books. If I'm wrong (I'm a Ron=DD believer) -- I will actually be happy! Although I believe that DD has been changing history with time travel, I don't feel that in the long run his tampering will make much difference. People cannot be controlled (Sirius is a perfect example of this); and no one should ever be in charge of another person's Destiny. I think that how one chooses to live is central to the Harry Potter series; and I think that time travel becomes an easy fix it scheme. And for this reason I believe that in the long run DD will realize that he has not changed much. Circumstances and characters may change, but the storyline may ultimately play out the same way, because the cast is always being replaced with new players. What I hate as much as time travel is the idea of a prophecy. In my opinion it also takes away free choice, and I will be disappointed if it turns out to be the central focus of the storyline. I hope that Harry rejects it, and realizes that he is the one in command of his own destiny. vmonte From caesian at yahoo.com Wed May 5 05:16:43 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 05:16:43 -0000 Subject: Inaugural address and Mandy Croyance on Assumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97686 Mandy_Croyance wrote: > The truth is that the characters, like normal people, are not always > correct. The too are subject to inherit bias and misinformation. > Some simply lie. > Throughout the third book we are led to believe Sirius Black is a > dangerous murder who is out to finish destroying the Potter family > by killing Harry. Obviously this is nearly the opposite of true. in the fourth book it is not true that Professor Moody is a rough, > but good and helpful ex-Auror. At least not the Moody we were led to > believe was Moody. In fact through his actions most readers came to > like him very much before the revelation that he was Barty Crouch > Jr.: Death Eater extraordinaire. If we have > learned anything it is that things are rarely as they seem. We must > also realize that what characters think of situations and each other > is also no necessarily true. > > Mandy Croyance Caesian replies: Welcome Mandy! What an appropriate inaugural address IMHO, because you have hit upon perhaps the core appeal of JKR's writing (to me, at least). The moment when the character we have identified with understands that they are wrong! Not evil, but incorrect, misinformed - and most of all - having made the wrong assumptions. JKR is able to involve me, and make me identify with her characters (I *was* Harry in the graveyard the first time I read that scene, weren't you?). Then, like the character we identify with, we judge another we presume to know (take Snape for example), but have a blazing moment of self-realization (how simple-minded can we be?) when Professor Quirrell appears unexpectedly. Perhaps it is because I am a scientist, but there is no surer pleasure than the moment you realize you have been mistaken - because at least you now know something true! But I think there is a deeper meaning than merely enjoyment: Who are we to judge or condemn when even Dumbledore is fooled? Caesian - who likes Hermione but laughs when she defends Lockhart to Ron too. From SuzChiles at pobox.com Wed May 5 05:14:29 2004 From: SuzChiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 22:14:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Portraits Know (was Re: portrait in GH...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97687 With all the talk about portraits, does anyone have any sense of what might become of Dobby's portrait of Harry? Suzanne From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 05:33:50 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 05:33:50 -0000 Subject: Good Slytherins was Dumbledore's Army (DA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97688 Gregory Lynn wrote: Narcissa could secretly despise the whole pureblood thing and take advantage of the fact that Lucius is in prison to extricate Draco from that culture. Marianne responded: This would be an interesting twist. Our picture of Narcissa has not been particularly flattering, but this might be a case of JKR throwing us yet another curve. The only quibble I have is that Narcissa has never been known to have any issues with the pureblood thing, not in the way that Andromeda, Alphard and Sirius have had. There has been no hint of her receiving any family censure for her views. Which is not to say that she doesn't have similar views to the three Black sheep. Maybe she is a wild card in the sense that she was never outspoken in the past because she was caught between Andromeda and Bellatrix and tried to placate both sides. Narcissa may have been trapped between her sisters, seeing the positive points in both of her sisters' viewpoints, and not wanting to make a decision that would inevitably alienate one sister or the other. Carol adds: You mentioned our glimpse of Narcissa at the Quidditch World Cup (snipped--sorry). That's the only time we actually see her, but not the only time she's mentioned. When Kreacher escapes from 12 Grimmauld Place, it's Narcissa that he goes to see--the only member of the Black family for whom he still has any respect aside from Bellatrix, who's inconveniently in Azkaban. And Narcissa aids Lucius in providing information to Voldemort. We have an earlier, indirect reference (again in relation to house-elfs): Dobby refers to his owners as "bad, Dark wizards." He could be talking about the whole family, including the twelve-year-old Draco, or just about the adults, his "masters." Either way, Narcissa comes out as a "bad, Dark" witch and (unlike her renegade cousin, Sirius) a true member of the Black family. JKR has promised that we'll see more of her, probably while Lucius is in prison. I for one am not expecting anything good. Carol, who wonders whether Narcissa was with her husband tormenting the Muggles at the QWC From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed May 5 05:38:35 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 05:38:35 -0000 Subject: Harry Legilimens (was Re: Kreacher, Buckbeak and Harry's Brain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97689 > Caesian wrote: > > >I've been wondering about the nature of this mental link between Harry and LV - and the > >timing of Kreacher's injury to Buckbeak. > After rereading that section of OotP on the bus this morning, I wonder if another > permutation isn't possible - I wonder if Harry actually helped to trigger the vision with his > own ability for Legilimency. Bizzare? From O.W.L.S beginning page 725 - OotP US HB: > > "* I know this *, Harry thought, though his brain felt torpid and slack. He could visualize a > heading, in Hermione's handwriting: ... He gazed blankly at the back of Parvati's head > again. If he could only perform Legilimency and open a window in the back of her head > and see .... He closed his eyes, trying to see them [Hermione's notes], trying to remember. > ... *Think* he told himself, his face in his hands ... > > And then he has the vision of Sirius. Annemehr: You know, you may have something here. There seems to be no indication of Harry actually falling asleep, and, tired as he was, I don't think that during an exam is a likely time to do so. Trying to Legilimens Parvati's thoughts seems like it could be an alternate trigger. I've just had a new thought: I think there's now a sixth permutation. This Legilimency part, with Harry trying to see into the back of Parvati's head, and the whole passage really, I've always found chilling for some reason. Harry doesn't quite seem like himself to me. I'd always tried to put it down to lack of sleep the night before, but what if Voldemort had made a breakthrough, and didn't have wait for Harry to fall asleep anymore? What if, during the exam, LV was "pushing" his way into Harry's mind and making him feel odd, and Harry felt the Legilimens-like force of LV's will as his own wish to read Parvati's mind, until -- boom -- he's in the vision of torturing Sirius? Almost like a mini-possession before the big one in the MoM. Caesian: > In answer to your comment about the negative correlation between Kreacher's presence > and Sirius's good temper, I ran across the Kreacher poison thread while searching for > precedence with this post, and I admit I am intrigued. Annemehr: I feel sure of it. There's that, and the mentions of calming and befuddlement draughts. There doesn't seem to be much hope of anyone uncovering it now that Sirius is dead, though, unless Dumbledore decided to make Kreacher talk some more. Or maybe, these are clues for us to remember when someone else begins acting cranky. Come to think of it, certain people did get quite crotchety in OoP while others seemed to remain their normal, sweet selves. Let's think: Testy: Harry, Hermione, Molly, Sirius Calm: Ron(?), Arthur, Lupin, Dumbledore, Fred, George, Ginny These are people (except for DD) who'd stayed at Grimmauld Place. Other people (Tonks, for instance) seemed cheerful enough, but we don't really know them, and Snape seemed pretty normal, given the circumstances. Ron, I'm having trouble deciding -- he seemed normal enough himself, but got irritated by Harry and Hermione. What about Mundungus? Was his abandoning Harry for stolen cauldrons normal for him or a sign of unusual rashness? Can't make this mean anything, though -- must be missing something... > > Caesian - who still favors the scenario wherein LV timed his attack on Harry to the end of > exams - because he's Evil like that. Annemehr - more power to you -- but you'd think he'd disrupt DADA instead, though - must not have had an up-to-date schedule. ;-) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 06:09:42 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 06:09:42 -0000 Subject: Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97690 Sea Change: I thought that Hagrid's wand was exceptionally large and long, but can't find the canon for it. Would it fit in one of those flimsy fold-up brollies? Geoff: He might have a golf umbrella.... Carol: Considering that Hagrid's wand was broken fifty years before CoS, which would be 1942-43, and he probably bought the umbrella to hide it in as soon as possible (when he was still about thirteen), the little fold-up umbrellas we have now wouldn't have been invented yet. I think it's one of the old-fashioned kind that's about three feet long when it's closed like a nineteenth-century English gentlemen's black umbrella (or the ones the nannies carry in "Mary Poppins" only pink and flowered. (I have no idea what a golf umbrella is.) Carol, who seems to recall that the incident when Tom framed Rubeus occurred in June and wonders how that could be possible From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 06:41:01 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 06:41:01 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97691 Carol: The point of my post, in case anyone is wondering, is that despite Fudge's occasional interactions with the Muggle Prime Minister (necessary to keep the WW hidden from the Muggles), postmedieval Muggle politics, including the present political geography of Ireland and the United Kingdom, are IMO of no concern whatever to the WW. Geoff: I wouldn't entirely agree with you on that, because the Wizarding World might find itself in a position of having to contact the Taoiseach in some sort of emergency. Carol: Carol, with apologies for oversimplifying the complicated relations between England and Ireland over the centuries, but 1473 suggested the Yorkists and Lancastrians and this post developed from there. . . > > Geoff: > Just watch what you're saying about Lancastrians..... I might do > something more drastic than think about sending you red roses. > > :-) Carol: Uh oh. I wear my roses white. Loyaultie me Lie! But what's Taoiseach? And just to keep this post on track so the List Elves won't yell at me, "no concern whatever" is probably an overstatement, but we see very little interest even in their own history among the wizard population (partially the fault of Professor Binns for talking incessantly about goblin wars, with a giant war thrown in for "variety"), but I doubt that any of them know when Ireland, Scotland, and Wales were incorporated into the the Union or even when Ireland dropped out. And probably no one except Dumbledore knows who Fawkes is named after. (He has to have been named by Dumbledore himself. What other headmaster would know about Guy Fawkes--or even lemon drops?) Carol, who doesn't really dislike the Lancastrians (except maybe Margaret of Anjou), only them murderin' Tydders who systematically executed all the Yorkist heirs From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 07:04:15 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:04:15 -0000 Subject: Muggle clothes and dungeon dormitiories (Was: Where do teachers live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97692 i (Carol) wrote: I also don't think that the robes are open at the front as they're depicted in the American editions. I think they're more like a graduation gown that you pull over your head, which explains how Mr. Weasley could put his on back-to-front and need help getting it on right. snip> No school uniforms, either; just plain black robes for everyday wear. > Potioncat: > I'm not a visual reader, that is I can't really "picture" things in > my head, (I have a little voice, like Harry) so I just can't get all > these robes, or how Snape's would billow. But I think you're right > about them being the pull over type. And that what they are worn > with may vary with the person. Although it does sort of sound as if > the adults have a wider range of robe styles. I seem to recall > someone wearing a suit in a non-muggle situation. > > BTW, the US edition of SS I have does not have pictures in it. By > any chance did the open robes in the books appear before or after > the movies? Carol again: My Scholastic edition of SS/PS, which has the drawings, is dated October 1998--long before the movies. The wizard who wears the suit (not counting Barty Sr. at the QWC, where he's passing as a Muggle) is probably Fudge, who wears a suit (along with a green bowler), probably because of his contacts with the British PM. And it isn't Snape's robe that billows--that would be a bit awkward, I think. It's his cloak floating out behind him that creates the impression (at least by torchlight) of a giant bat. Possibly he only wears it when the weather's cold, or to keep warm in the Potions dungeon. BTW, the dungeon is an odd place for a classroom (and office?) and an odder place for the Slytherin dormitories. Wouldn't you think that, with four towers in the castle, all the dorms would be in the towers? But it's only Gryffindor and (I think) Ravenclaw that do--Slytherin has its quarters in the dungeon and Hufflepuff is somewhere near the passage that leads to the kitchen. (Oh, those hungry Hufflepuffs!) Carol From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 5 07:06:24 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:06:24 -0000 Subject: Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Sea Change: > I thought that Hagrid's wand was exceptionally large and long, but > can't find the canon for it. Would it fit in one of those flimsy > fold-up brollies? Geoff: 'He shook his head and then, to Harry's relief, spotted Hagrid. "Rubeus! Rubeus Hagrid! How nice to see you again... Oak, sixteen inches, rather bendy, wasn't it?" "It was, sir, yes," said Hagrid. "Good wand, that one. But I suppose they snapped it in half when you got expelled?" said Mr.Ollivander, suddenly stern. "Er - yes, they did, yes," said Hagrid, shuffling his feet. "I've still got the pieces though," he added brightly. "But you don't use them?" said Mr.Ollivander sharply. "Oh no, sir," said Hagrid quickly. Harry noticed he gripped his pink umbrells very tightly as he spoke.' (PS "Diagon Alley" p.64 UK edition) From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 5 07:10:52 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:10:52 -0000 Subject: Quidditch World Cup - Irish vs English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97694 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Geoff: > I wouldn't entirely agree with you on that, because the Wizarding > World might find itself in a position of having to contact the > Taoiseach in some sort of emergency. > > Just watch what you're saying about Lancastrians..... I might do > > something more drastic than think about sending you red roses. > > > > :-) > > Carol: > Uh oh. I wear my roses white. Loyaultie me Lie! But what's Taoiseach? Geoff: You mean, who's the Taoiseach? This is the official title of the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland, currently Bertie Ahern. Slightly OT, I am strictly a Tudor, I suppose. I had a Lancastrian mother, a Yorkshire father and grew up in Lancashire until I was 9. Interestingly, this was in the area made famous by the Witches of Pendle. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 07:34:39 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:34:39 -0000 Subject: Help with Lupin's boggart / Cockroaches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97695 Carol wrote: Despite McGonagall's skepticism, this prediction, like the one about someone leaving the class around Easter, is at least partially accurate since Lupin is no longer a teacher five months later. But maybe there's more to it. Why *did* Lupin "positively flee" unless he was afraid of his own future? > Potioncat: > Just to clarify, Carol, you vote yes for moon-boggart, and yes for > afraid of future? > > BTW, in OoP, do readers think he vanished his boggart differently > than in PoA or that JKR just used a short-hand to describe the > situation? It seems to me we see a shorted version in another > boggart scene too, but I can't place it. Carol again: What, my response betrays some confusion? Or confused you? ;-) Actually, I do think it's a moon boggart because he's a werewolf and his transformations are terrible and painful; he's afraid both of being "outed" and of harming someone in his moon-caused madness (lunacy). I also don't think he would lie about his boggart, however weak he may be on occasion. But I'm also presenting the evidence for crystal balls, which I think are red herrings in their original context but *could* also indicate a (non-boggart) discomfort about the future that we're supposed to notice on subsequent readings. In other words, the crystal ball references are intended to mislead us in PoA so we don't know he's a werewolf, but nevertheless they suggest that Lupin has cause to fear the future and may not survive till the end of the series. (I think we should keep an eye on Trelawney's predictions, too. Just because the reason-oriented McGonagall scoffs at them doesn't mean that all of them are wrong; it's like Hermione and Luna on a grown-up level.) I think that other reference to Lupin's boggart being unceremoniously dismissed without a perceptible Riddikulus spell is in one of the boggart!dementor lessons in PoA, possibly the one where Harry hears James. (And yes, I do think it's James. He would know if it was Lupin.) Carol, who is probably trying to have it both ways in this post because she sees both sides From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed May 5 08:18:33 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 08:18:33 -0000 Subject: The thing they would miss most. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97696 lizvega4 wrote: > Who decided what to take away from each of the champions during > the second task of the triwizard tournament? > > Harry would miss his best friend, Ron, the most. That makes sense. Del wonders : Does it ? If Viktor would miss Hermione most, and Cedric would miss Cho most, how could the High Authorities (whoever or whatever they are) be sure that Harry would miss *Ron* most ? As for Fleur and Gabrielle, I remember being flabbergasted when I read about them the first time. It's just so much out of proportions ! Ron might be the most important person in Harry's life, okay, and it's very convenient that he happens to be at Hogwarts. But I'm pretty sure Hermione and Cho are NOT the most important persons in Viktor and Cedric's lives, no matter how much in love the two boys might be. The girls are just the most important persons *at Hogwarts* ! So why *ever* did the High Authorities go and kidnap Fleur's sister all the way in France (or wherever she lives, which is not Hogwarts) ? The only solution I see is that Gabrielle spent that year in Hogsmeade, and Fleur saw her often, and then Gabrielle was indeed the thing Fleur would miss most at Hogwarts. But there's no hint whatsoever that Fleur visits anyone in Hogsmeade. On a side note : the High Authorities most probably didn't plan on Dobby telling Harry that he was supposed to rescue Ron, and if I remember correctly, the Champions are not told who or what they are supposed to rescue before they go in the water. So if Harry had gone there without Dobby's info, can you imagine his nasty surprise at getting at the Merpeople's village and discovering that the 3 people that count most for him are all there, and then having to figure out on his own which one he's supposed to bring back ? Nasssty sssurprise, my Preciousssss, nasssty ! Del From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Wed May 5 05:36:24 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 05:36:24 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: <20040505015629.35200.qmail@web13521.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97697 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me wrote: > > I really feel that there is more to LV's story than we > know so far. I think this will also come into play at > the final showdown between HP and LV. People have wondered why the info on his mother and her name have been kept so quiet by JKR. People have even speculated that Tom Riddle was born in the timeturned past after being conceived in the future, by the present group of characters (and didn't realize that Tom Riddle Sr. wasn't his real father, etc.) or that there were two versions of him growing up at different times under varying influences, etc. Certainly, I wonder, but it's hard to guess at anything with accuracy. aj From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 04:07:03 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 04:07:03 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: <20040505015629.35200.qmail@web13521.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97698 wrote: > I have often wondered, WHY and HOW did Voldemort get > so bad? > > We know he had rough beginning. People have also > speculated about the lack of love in his life. But, > do you think that it is that ALONE that made him get > so evil? > > I really feel that there is more to LV's story than we > know so far. I think this will also come into play at > the final showdown between HP and LV. > > There are a lot of parallels between Hitler and LV. > Both disliked their fathers, both went to boarding > school, and both hated a particular group of people > that they had ties to. > > Now, there are also many differences, and I am not > trying to say that JKR was trying to do a parallelism. > > I just wonder where the turning point happened for LV. > > Any thoughts? > > ~Mo > From "Prophecy and Choice" > Anyways... 2)Tom's not a pureblood either. Maybe that's where the LV/TR reconciliation will come. It seems to me that LV would think that compassion from HP would be revolting and moreover, a sign of weakness, but the part of him that's still TR might be moved by HP's compassion enough to make LV unstable, not so powerful, first crack in the dam, so to speak. Mercy at the hands of his enemies might make him question his actions. And remember, we don't know why TR, not a pureblood, goes on this purist kick in the first place. What is HIS motivation for killing m#%bloods? > Susan (teilani) who really hopes the theories re:ESE!Lupin are wrong. So sorry to quote myself, but I am also interested in how, exactly, LV came to persecute m%^bloods. I am sure we'll find this out by the end, but I'd like speculatory comments. And like I have said, perhaps it's not love, but mercy that is his undoing. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From mousepad at insightbb.com Wed May 5 05:15:09 2004 From: mousepad at insightbb.com (Mousepad) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 00:15:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Order will be moving Headquarters References: Message-ID: <003601c4325f$eff577a0$6901a8c0@brmkam> No: HPFGUIDX 97699 Caesian wrote: >I've been thinking about Kreacher, and Narcissa. Narcissa Black, sister of Bellatrix and >cousin of Sirius - would certainly have known from childhood where Grimmauld Place is >located. Lady Kate Responds: I have also wondered that with Sirius dead, who would inherit Grimmauld Place? Would it be Narcissa, and thus by marriage Lucious Malfoy? That could have some interesting implications back at Hogwarts. Lady Kate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed May 5 08:45:53 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 08:45:53 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: <20040505015629.35200.qmail@web13521.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97700 Ms Mo Me wrote: > I have often wondered, WHY and HOW did Voldemort get > so bad? > > We know he had rough beginning. People have also > speculated about the lack of love in his life. But, > do you think that it is that ALONE that made him get > so evil? Del replies : Nope. I think the lack of love and the rough circumstances made him hard, resentful and ambitious. And I think it's his *power* that corrupted him in the end. Because he was so powerful, he could do almost anything he wanted to satisfy his resentment and ambition. And the more he did bad things, the more he eroded his conscience, his sense of right and wrong. That's how he slowly turned completely evil. If someone had been strong enough to break him, to force him to stop and think, maybe he could have seen the error of his ways. But apparently this never happened. Or it was already too late when it did. Maybe DD did break him, but because he didn't dare doing it as soon as he saw the need to (when Tom was 11 ?), he did it too late, when Tom's conscience had already been eroded too much. Mo wrote : > I just wonder where the turning point happened for LV. Del answers : I would rather say that the turning point did *not* happen for LV. Being unloved put him straight on a tough road, right from birth, because of his strong, proud, ambitious personality. If he had received enough love early enough, he might have changed. If he had found someone stronger than himself, he might have been forced to think. But those things didn't happen, and Tom didn't deviate from his road, and that road led him straight to being LV. I know it contradicts what JKR said about nodody being born evil, but I can't see how she reconciles that with the fact that Tom was obviously so deeply evil and corrupted by the age of 15. 15 is simply too young an age to have *chosen* to be so evil and corrupted. Del From koo at uk.ibm.com Wed May 5 10:55:16 2004 From: koo at uk.ibm.com (prongsnpadfoot) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 10:55:16 -0000 Subject: But Why does it Have to be Lupin? (was:Kreacher, Buckbeak ...) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97701 >Pippin kindly concedes that: >> That doesn't prove it couldn't have been a Weasley, of course. >> JKR has plenty of time to casually mention that one of them was >> at the house during the requisite time period. But right now >> there don't seem to have been any Weasleys about. If there were, >> they'd have been in the rescue party. >Erin: >And that in itself is suspicious. There are an awful lot of >Weasleys in the Order, and yet not one of them makes it to the >Ministry? >What are the odds? Surely at least one of them had to have been >purposely "unavailable" so as not to have to fight his Death Eater >friends? Although agreeing with both Pippin and Erin at it looks a little odd, one reason why there are no Weasleys helping out in the MOM could be to protect the Weasley's from Fudge. I don't have the book to hand, but remember Arthur I think saying that Fudge had effectively said that anyone helping Dumbledore, should clear out their desk and leave. Fudge knows Arthur is friends with Dumbledore and it would be a little to suspicious if one of the Weasleys happened to be at the MOM, to rescue Harry and co, especially as they are easy to identify, and things would become difficult, if Arthur loses his job with Ron and Ginny still in School. -Dan From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Wed May 5 10:58:18 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 5:58:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? Message-ID: <20040505105818.OVWB29216.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97702 Susan (teilani) who really hopes the theories re:ESE!Lupin are wrong. So sorry to quote myself, but I am also interested in how, exactly, LV came to persecute m%^bloods. I am sure we'll find this out by the end, but I'd like speculatory comments. And like I have said, perhaps it's not love, but mercy that is his undoing. {Silverthorne} IIRC, Tom's hatred of muggles started when his father abandoned Tom's witch mother (or is the father the wizard, and mum the muggle? I can't recall, but I do think it's the former, and that the Riddles are Muggles). That in and of itself would have been enough, I think. "Mudbloods" (forgive the use, folks, please. Howlers will be given to the siamese to chew on), by his own father's example, are prejudiced, dishonorable and downright cruel--he abandoned them both as soon as he found out about Tom's mother's witch abilities. Remember, Father and grandparents were the first to go at Tom's hands--a fitting end, no doubt in Tom's mind, for a bunch of rich, elitist, prejudiced snobs who didn't even have an ounce of magical power to their name. And then, of course, by comparison, wizarding folks would seem superior...especially pure bloods with no trace of those treacherous Muggle genetics.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rtb333 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 11:25:31 2004 From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:25:31 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: <20040505105818.OVWB29216.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Silverthorne wrote: > IIRC, Tom's hatred of muggles started when his father abandoned Tom's witch mother (or is the father the wizard, and mum the muggle? I can't recall, but I do think it's the former, and that the Riddles are Muggles). That in and of itself would have been enough, I think. > > "Mudbloods" (forgive the use, folks, please. Howlers will be given to the siamese to chew on), by his own father's example, are prejudiced, dishonorable and downright cruel--he abandoned them both as soon as he found out about Tom's mother's witch abilities. > (Rob enters the conversation) I agree that his father's abandonment and not knowing his mother was a catalyst that started him on his way, but how did he aquire so much information on the dark arts. If you can recall, all of these types of books are in the restricted section of the Hogwarts Library. I agree that while at the orphanage he was growing eveer more resentful of non-wizard people, but he must have had guidence to push him over the edge. This is why I feel that at the time Tom had attended school he was taught all of the dark arts by a teacher, a teacher with a hidden agenda. My theory is that Grindelwald is that mentor. I know you may say you have seen this theory before, but that is probably because I have brought it up a few times without recieving any responses. If Grindelwald was a teacher then it would explain how Tom had access to all of the necessary materials to make him evil. Putting your teenage self in a diary seems like very complicated magic even for a prodigy. This would also explain why Tom is afraid of DD, because DD defeated his master. If you have any thoughts to strengthen or weaken this theory please post it. Rob (backing into the shadows) From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 5 11:56:38 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:56:38 -0000 Subject: Muggle clothes and dungeon dormitiories (Was: Where do teachers live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97704 > Carol again: > My Scholastic edition of SS/PS, which has the drawings, is dated > October 1998--long before the movies. The wizard who wears the suit > (not counting Barty Sr. at the QWC, where he's passing as a Muggle) is > probably Fudge, who wears a suit (along with a green bowler), probably > because of his contacts with the British PM. Potioncat: I'm listening to PoA, just got to the first divination class. The "grim" in Harry's tea leaves is also offered as a bowler and I couldn't help but wonder if it didn't also refer to Fudge....Oh heck, I'm starting to sound like Lavender!... Carol: > BTW, the dungeon is an odd place for a classroom (and office?) and an > odder place for the Slytherin dormitories. Wouldn't you think that, > with four towers in the castle, all the dorms would be in the towers? > But it's only Gryffindor and (I think) Ravenclaw that do--Slytherin > has its quarters in the dungeon and Hufflepuff is somewhere near the > passage that leads to the kitchen. (Oh, those hungry Hufflepuffs!) Potioncat: I snipped your discription of the cloak billowing and it made much more sense! I "see" now. I agree the dungeons does seem odd, and I can't tell if the passage to the kitchen is also a part of the dungeon, or just below ground. Do you suppose after going down to get into the common room, there are stairs leading back up the towers? Sort of like going into a room on the 3rd floor guarded by a 3-headed dog and ending up below the castle. Or taking a secret door on the 4th floor that leads to a tunnel to Hogsmeade? I've reasoned that the potions class is taught in the dungeon because all those simmering cauldrons would get pretty warm after a while. I wonder though, if a new potions teacher could request a different location? Or is this just a part of our own "dark" view of witches/wizards and JKR uses it to the fullest. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 5 12:27:20 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 12:27:20 -0000 Subject: Help with Lupin's boggart / Cockroaches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97705 snip snip Carol wrote: > > I think that other reference to Lupin's boggart being unceremoniously > dismissed without a perceptible Riddikulus spell is in one of the > boggart!dementor lessons in PoA, possibly the one where Harry hears > James. (And yes, I do think it's James. He would know if it was Lupin.) > > Carol, who is probably trying to have it both ways in this post > because she sees both sides Potioncat: I think I'm getting "too good" at snipping. Yes, I also see both possibilites for the boggart and for a foreboding of foresight, so we'll see how it plays out. I think it's James too, because his mother says, "Your father is coming" and I don't think Lily's echo would say that if it wasn't his father's echo. Nor do I think any husband in his right mind would switch with another man and not tell his wife. No one else seems at all interested in the way Lupin sometimes dispels his Boggart. It does nag at me though. Potioncat From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 5 13:52:00 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 13:52:00 -0000 Subject: Muggle clothes and dungeon dormitiories (Was: Where do teachers live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97706 Potioncat wrote: << I've reasoned that the potions class is taught in the dungeon because all those simmering cauldrons would get pretty warm after a while. I wonder though, if a new potions teacher could request a different location? Or is this just a part of our own "dark" view of witches/wizards and JKR uses it to the fullest.>> Sigune (laughs): I personally have always assumed that Snape keeps applying for the DADA job because having to live in the Hogwarts dungeons is so mighty uncomfortable. I mean, if he isn't killed in the war against Voldy he's going to die of rheumatism. The DADA master's quarters look so snug and warm... Yours not so severely, Sigune From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed May 5 13:57:50 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 13:57:50 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97707 > Del replies : > Nope. I think the lack of love and the rough circumstances made him > hard, resentful and ambitious. And I think it's his *power* that > corrupted him in the end. Because he was so powerful, he could do > almost anything he wanted to satisfy his resentment and ambition. > And the more he did bad things, the more he eroded his conscience, > his sense of right and wrong. That's how he slowly turned completely > evil. If someone had been strong enough to break him, to force him > to stop and think, maybe he could have seen the error of his ways. > But apparently this never happened. Or it was already too late when > it did. Maybe DD did break him, but because he didn't dare doing it > as soon as he saw the need to (when Tom was 11 ?), he did it too > late, when Tom's conscience had already been eroded too much. Jen: Or Dumbledore didn't intervene, deeply regrets it, and that was the impetus for him to invest so much in Harry's magical and ethical development. Good description of the process TR went through to evolve into LV, Del! Del: > I know it contradicts what JKR said about nodody being born evil, > but I can't see how she reconciles that with the fact that Tom was > obviously so deeply evil and corrupted by the age of 15. 15 is > simply too young an age to have *chosen* to be so evil and corrupted. Jen: I was intrigued to hear JKR mention the "mysterious circumstances surrounding TR's birth" that contributed to his evil development. I can't imagine what happened, but there must be something besides the deprivation & loss of his childhood. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 5 14:39:13 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 14:39:13 -0000 Subject: Muggle clothes and dungeon dormitiories (Was: Where do teachers live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97708 > Sigune (laughs): > I personally have always assumed that Snape keeps applying for the > DADA job because having to live in the Hogwarts dungeons is so mighty > uncomfortable. I mean, if he isn't killed in the war against Voldy > he's going to die of rheumatism. The DADA master's quarters look so > snug and warm... Potioncat: Good point! DADA quarters would make for a more comfortable nursery for the twins as well. Of course, even the dungeon beats Trelawney's quarters! I wouldn't go out much either if I had to climb all those stairs. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 5 15:30:24 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 15:30:24 -0000 Subject: OWL EXAM CACULATIONS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97709 Well, given my own posts on the value of numbers in JKR's books, I probably shouldn't ask this. Does anyone have a statistical view of how the OWL marks should fall? There are O, E, A for the passing grade, correct? P and D would both be failures? So how many students would reasonably be able to take Transfigurations or Potions? How many would be expected to pass? I know Snape said his classes had a high pass rate. Perhaps this doesn't apply to canon, but I was wondering how large the classes might be and who we might see placed together. I would think if nothing else, it will be one class of all 4 houses. Of course, a student could pass an OWL, but not need the NEWT level for their chosen career. IIRC, JKR was a teacher. Would she be familiar with the bell curve? Or does that theory even hold water any more? Potioncat (who knows the math vocabulary, but not the process) From rredordead at aol.com Wed May 5 15:31:38 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 15:31:38 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97710 > Gregory Lynn wrote: > > Draco could be disillusioned by something he sees his father do. > > Marianne wrote: > And, frankly, I can't see that anything Lucius could do, including killing someone, that Draco couldn't rationalise to himself as a necessary action. Mandy here: I can think of one person Lucius could kill that would alienate Draco; and that his mother, Narcissa. I don't have any canon to support this, but as we are looking for reason for the emergence of a good Slytherin it's a good strong one. Why Lucius would kill her? I don't know. But with Lucius in Azkaban, Narcissa in a tremendously powerful position, and if it does turns out she is working to undermine her husband, or LV, or perhaps keep her son out if the Death Eaters, LV could demand her death. And if Lucius Malfoy is desperate enough, he may just do it. After all he has his Malfoy Son and Heir. It very cruel, but not a stretch for our Mr. Malfoy. I suppose this action will depend on the extent of the relationship between Lucius and Narcissa, which we know little about right now. I was also thinking about how LV is now in the position where most of his old inner circle of DE are in Azkaban. The Dark Lord needs a new, young, fresh, loyal and impressionable army. Umbridge has done him a huge favor in that regard, and brought together an eager ready-made unit, loyal in their hatred of DD and DD's Army. Lines and loyalties drawn at 15/16 years old are hard to break. I think we will see recruitment into the ranks of the New Death Eaters out of the 6th and 7th years in the next book and Draco will be one of them if only for a short while. Cheers Mandy From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed May 5 15:40:22 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 15:40:22 -0000 Subject: The thing they would miss most. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega4" wrote: > Who decided what to take away from each of the champions during the > second task of the triwizard tournament? > > Harry would miss his best friend, Ron, the most. That makes sense. > And Fleur missing her sister, I can buy that too. I just don't > understand how Hermione could've been the thing Victor would miss > most, when they'd only known each other a couple of months, and > Cedric missing Cho the most? I don't know, maybe, I'm undervaluing > teen romance. > > But, again, who decided to take these people away, and how did they > know it was what each champion would miss most? Jen: I didn't get the Viktor-missing-Hermione pairing either, except as an opportunity to show Ron was jealous and to provide more proof that Harry/Hemione aren't meant for each other ;)! Seriously, though, I thought of those picks as a snapshot in time, perhaps chosen by the judges? Either that or Karkaroff, Maxime, McGonagall & Flitwick chose. Dumbledore mentions at the end of GOF that Flitwick knew Cedric best. McGonagall knows quite a bit more about Harry than she lets on, I think! From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 5 15:48:14 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 15:48:14 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97713 Mandy wrote: > > I was also thinking about how LV is now in the position where most of > his old inner circle of DE are in Azkaban. The Dark Lord needs a new, > young, fresh, loyal and impressionable army. Umbridge has done him a > huge favor in that regard, and brought together an eager ready-made > unit, loyal in their hatred of DD and DD's Army. Lines and loyalties > drawn at 15/16 years old are hard to break. I think we will see > recruitment into the ranks of the New Death Eaters out of the 6th and > 7th years in the next book and Draco will be one of them if only for a > short while. > x Potioncat: And I wonder how that will affect the teachers, particularly Snape? The closest I can relate to this, although there may be more recent examples, is of the U.S. military academies (was there more than one?) in the 1860's when the South left the Union and Officers and academy students resigned and went back home to fight for the Confederacy. But I have to say, so far in these books, LV's followers have seemed more like a crime ring than an army. Potioncat From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 5 15:50:09 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 15:50:09 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Ms Mo Me wrote: > > I have often wondered, WHY and HOW did Voldemort get > > so bad? > > > > We know he had rough beginning. People have also > > speculated about the lack of love in his life. But, > > do you think that it is that ALONE that made him get > > so evil? > > Del replies : > Nope. I think the lack of love and the rough circumstances made him hard, resentful and ambitious. And I think it's his *power* that corrupted him in the end. Because he was so powerful, he could do almost anything he wanted to satisfy his resentment and ambition. And the more he did bad things, the more he eroded his conscience, his sense of right and wrong. < Pippin: I think that Voldemort's conscience didn't erode, it simply never grew. JKR constantly uses baby metaphors to describe her villains. Peter sobbing in the shrieking shack "like an oversized, balding baby," Voldemort's ugly baby form, Bella's baby talk, the baby-headed Death Eater in OOP, Umbridge's little girl voice, and young Barty's infantile behavior under veritaserum are all examples. It seems they have no more sense of right and wrong than a baby does. Seen in this light, though, it's hard to regard them as evil. Others, such as Quirrell, Draco, Lucius, Vernon and Petunia, don't get the baby metaphor. And though they cause loads of suffering, they don't seem to be evil in the same compulsive way that Bella is. On an individual basis, then, there don't seem to be any evil characters, even Voldemort. And yet, we are warned, evil exists. How to resolve this? I think evil in the Potterverse is a collaborative act, not an individual one. It takes at least two people, one who can rationalize a cruel or unjust act, and one who doesn't need to. So, to take the Dursley household as an example, Petunia and Vernon rationalize their behavior: it's necessary to hide Harry from the neighbors and squash the magic out of him. Dudley doesn't need to rationalize; he flat-out enjoys making Harry miserable, and when he hasn't got Harry to pick on, he bullies younger kids in the neighborhood and at school. As he's a child, it is his elders' business to make him feel responsible for his choices by arranging appropriate consequences. But this they have largely failed to do, and I think the same thing happened to Tom, though as a result of neglect rather than over-indulgence. Dudley grew up feeling he would be rewarded whatever he did. Tom grew up feeling he would be punished whatever he did. Neither learned to connect their choices with the consequences. Pippin From rredordead at aol.com Wed May 5 16:10:22 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 16:10:22 -0000 Subject: Bellatrix Night Out With The Lads. Was: Perchance to dream... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97715 > Carolyn wrote: > My money's still on dear Bella on her night out with the lads. > Kneasy wrote: > Would it be in character for darling Bella not to taunt young Potter >with what she had seen done to his parents? Hardly. She revels in her >part in torturing the Longbottoms. Can't really see her letting slip >the opportunity to distress Harry with jolly tales of death and >destruction. Mandy here: I'm definitely with Carolyn with this one. Why bother to torment Harry with the death of his parents, if indeed Bella was there? The AK simply kills on the spot, no pain, no gore, just sudden death. Not much to torment with in there, not enough on the torture scale of pain for Bellatrix, I think she prefers action as opposed to words. She could have brought up Lily's begging I suppose, but perhaps Bella was out of the room at that point, taking care of business elsewhere in the house, only to enter the room as the AK rebounded and hit LV, at which she screamed. Not to mention the whole event was a monumental failure for LV, and a moment of tremendous success for Harry, so I don't imagine she would bring it up. >Kneasy wrote: > That's another aspect to consider - the destruction of the house. >If any of Voldy's little >pals were caught in that you'd expect a >mention or two somewhere. That'd be a great >help - beware the >demented cackler with a limp. But that would make it too easy. Mandy here: But who would mention it? All the DE's present at Godrick's Hollow in this theory have been in Azkaban for the past 15 years and are now on the run or dead, or back prison. At the time of their trial why would the Lestranges or Crouch Jr., add fuel to their burning pyres by mentioning that they were also present at the murders and attempted murder of Lily, James and Harry Potter too?! At the trial Bellatix is cocky but not stupid, using her few words of defiance to threaten the WW, not point out at what other maniacal raids she'd been on. Cheers, Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Wed May 5 16:29:30 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 16:29:30 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97716 > Potioncat wrote: > And I wonder how that will affect the teachers, particularly Snape? > The closest I can relate to this, although there may be more recent > examples, is of the U.S. military academies (was there more than > one?) in the 1860's when the South left the Union and Officers and > academy students resigned and went back home to fight for the > Confederacy. > But I have to say, so far in these books, LV's followers have seemed > more like a crime ring than an army. Mandy here: The only DE we know about in Hogwarts is Snape and he's not going aywhere if DD has his way. The WW will be watching closing though, especially those parents who remember the last war and the accusations made against Snape.(If indeed those accusations were pubilc.) Snape is undoubtidy in a dangerous position from every corner of this Second War. It doesen't look good for our man Snape. Mandy From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 5 16:39:04 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 16:39:04 -0000 Subject: The thing they would miss most. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega4" wrote: > Who decided what to take away from each of the champions during the second task of the triwizard tournament?< I think it was magic! Maybe a little silver instrument like the ones in Dumbledore's office? Liz: > Harry would miss his best friend, Ron, the most. That makes sense. And Fleur missing her sister, I can buy that too. I just don't understand how Hermione could've been the thing Victor would miss most, when they'd only known each other a couple of months, and Cedric missing Cho the most? I don't know, maybe, I'm undervaluing teen romance. << I think so ;-) People do fall in love at first sight. And sometimes teens fall in love very deeply and quickly, because they haven't learned to hold back. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 5 16:51:11 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 16:51:11 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97718 > Mandy here: > The only DE we know about in Hogwarts is Snape and he's not going > aywhere if DD has his way. The WW will be watching closing though, > especially those parents who remember the last war and the accusations > made against Snape.(If indeed those accusations were pubilc.) Snape is > undoubtidy in a dangerous position from every corner of this Second > War. It doesen't look good for our man Snape. Potioncat: Very good points about Snape. I was actually wondering though, how the Slytherin students joining the DE's would affect the teachers. Particularly if they end up facing each other in the fighting. Potioncat From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Wed May 5 17:17:27 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 17:17:27 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I was actually wondering though, how the Slytherin students joining > the DE's would affect the teachers. Particularly if they end up > facing each other in the fighting. > Potioncat I don't think any of the teachers, Snape included, would kill any of their students intentionally under any circumstances. And now, a bit about Narcissa. I don't really think that she will turn out to be working against Lord Thingies Minions but there are indications. There has been a lot of mirror usage, from the Mirror of Erised to the mirror that talks to Harry at the Leaky Cauldron, to the mirror Sirius gave Harry. Narcissa is presumably named after the Narcissus flower since there are a number of flower names, but the Narcissus is named after Narcissus, who fell in love with his *reflection* and stared at it until he died. Reflection, mirror, et cetera and so forth. Reflections are not the same as the original, they are reversed. Could Narcissa have fallen in love with someone who is her opposite? Considering that her family would certainly have favored the match, I can see a young girl getting swept away by a rich and dashing guy that her parents are gaga over. From LWalshETAL at aol.com Wed May 5 17:20:47 2004 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 13:20:47 EDT Subject: Godric Gryffindor's Hat Message-ID: <96.a0db109.2dca7c6f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97720 In every scene in which a student tries on the Sorting Hat, which supposedly belonged to Godric Gryffindor before the original four started using it to sort the new students, the hat slips down over the student's eyes, indicating that it is too big for them. Why is it so large? Adults' heads aren't significantly larger than the heads of 11 year olds. As far as we know Gryffindor was a normal wizard, i.e., he was not part giant, but why would his head be so extraordinarily large? The original "Big-Head Boy"? Laura Walsh LWalshETAL at aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From probono at rapidnet.com Wed May 5 18:01:08 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 18:01:08 -0000 Subject: Weapons of Mass Destruction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97721 Just curious. At the beginning of OotP we learn Voldy is desperately searching for some all-powerful weapon; something he didn't have the last time he was in power. This weapon is one of the major mysteries in the book, and at the end DD explains the "weapon" Voldy was seeking was actually the power to destroy Harry Potter. Two thoughts. First, during most of Voldy's first reign of terror, he had no idea who HP was or why he would need to destroy him. So how can HP's destruction really be considered a weapon that he lacked the first time around? Second, although DD, the Order, and the MoM all took extreme pains to guard this most important "weapon", once it is revealed in the end, I don't see how this could be a weapon at all or how it was suppose to help Voldy destroy Harry in the first place. It just doesn't seem worth the trouble or worth the loss of life and limb. Harry speculates at one point that this great weapon could actually be him, but he dismisses the thought. But there are two other important references to weapons in the book (methinks). 1) Filch is described as a "weapon" in Umbridge's arsenal due to his Hogwart's knowledge. 2) During Occlumency lessons, Snape tells Harry: "You are allowing me access to memories you fear, handing me weapons!" It just seems that we, the readers, are possibly being misled about this "weapon". If I were Voldy I would be thinking Harry is much more useful alive then dead. In other words...a very valuable weapon. Your thoughts? probono From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed May 5 18:02:42 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 18:02:42 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97722 Silverthorne wrote: > > IIRC, Tom's hatred of muggles started when his father abandoned > Tom's witch mother > > (Rob enters the conversation) > > I agree that his father's abandonment and not knowing his mother was > a catalyst that started him on his way, but how did he aquire so much > information on the dark arts. If you can recall, all of these types > of books are in the restricted section of the Hogwarts Library. > This is why I feel that at the time Tom had attended > school he was taught all of the dark arts by a teacher, a teacher > with a hidden agenda. My theory is that Grindelwald is that mentor. Annemehr: It could be. As Mandy Croyance pointed out in her inaugural post , the easy assumptions are not safe to make. Grindelwald's Germanic name and parallels to Hitler suggest he was in Germany, but he could well have been in Britain or anywhere. Another assumption is that Grindelwald was trying to "take over the world" as Voldemort is. If Grindelwald was a Hogwarts teacher, I don't think he would have stayed there if his agenda were world domination. Hogwart would have been a rather inconvenient base of operations, I would think. But Dumbledore's Chocolate Frog card only tells us that Grindelwald was a "dark wizard." Perhaps what he was really doing was research into new forms of Dark Magic, in which case Hogwarts would have been an excellent place to live, and teaching would have been an excellent cover. And Tom Riddle, the protege. Of course, the dark Hogwarts teacher, if he existed, could have been a lieutenant of Grindelwald's. In that case Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald would still have had much the same effect on Tom Riddle as your own theory. By the way, there are two main things Riddle had to learn about at Hogwarts. The other thing (besides the dark arts) was his ancestry, that he was a descendent of Salazar Slytherin. I once, with tongue only halfway in my cheek, suggested Dumbledore as Tom's source for family info (might've been in a private email, though). Think about it: Dumbledore's heart goes out to the charming young boy from the orphanage, and, recognising the name "Marvolo," gives him information about his mother's family. He does this out of a feeling that children have a right to have information about themselves in order to guide their own destinies. But young Tom has a bent for the Dark Side, and eventually uses this information to the death and misery of countless people. Dumbledore has learned a hard lesson, and when a charming young orphan from Privet Drive comes along, Dumbledore doles out the truth about him with an eyedropper -- and we know how well *that* worked out... Rob: > If Grindelwald was a teacher then it would explain how Tom had access > to all of the necessary materials to make him evil. Putting your > teenage self in a diary seems like very complicated magic even for a > prodigy. Annemehr: I'd rephrase that, and say that Tom needed access to the necessary materials to make him powerful. To be evil, all he had to do was choose it. But, to address your point, I compare him to James and Sirius. I think the Marauder's Map may be as complex a piece of magic as the Diary, and I'm sure they did that on their own. Still, I'm perfectly happy to think that either Grindelwald or a supporter of his mentored Tom Riddle at Hogwarts, though I don't think it's necessary to explain his knowledge of the Dark Arts. We'll see, I hope! Annemehr From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 5 18:20:08 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 18:20:08 -0000 Subject: What am I missing? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97723 What is all this about Snape's twins? Sylvia (who has beenaway for a week and seems to have come back into a parallel universe) From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 5 18:20:51 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 18:20:51 -0000 Subject: map and diary was Re: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97724 > > Annemehr: > I'd rephrase that, and say that Tom needed access to the necessary > materials to make him powerful. To be evil, all he had to do was > choose it. > > But, to address your point, I compare him to James and Sirius. I > think the Marauder's Map may be as complex a piece of magic as the > Diary, and I'm sure they did that on their own. Still, I'm perfectly > happy to think that either Grindelwald or a supporter of his mentored > Tom Riddle at Hogwarts, though I don't think it's necessary to explain > his knowledge of the Dark Arts. We'll see, I hope! > Potioncat: I've never thought of that comparison before: Marauders leaving map that was found and used to Riddle leaving diary which was found and used. In neither case did the owner choose who would get it and in both cases they were called "dark arts" by a trusted (by us) wizard. (Although Snape calling the map dark arts is generally considered to be a diversion.) Of course, the map was taken from the Marauders, but do we know how Lucius got the diary? Potioncat From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed May 5 18:37:47 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 18:37:47 -0000 Subject: Weapons of Mass Destruction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "probonoprobono" wrote: > Just curious. At the beginning of OotP we learn Voldy is desperately > searching for some all-powerful weapon; something he didn't have the > last time he was in power. This weapon is one of the major mysteries > in the book, and at the end DD explains the "weapon" Voldy was > seeking was actually the power to destroy Harry Potter. > > Two thoughts. > > First, during most of Voldy's first reign of terror, he had no idea > who HP was or why he would need to destroy him. So how can HP's > destruction really be considered a weapon that he lacked the first > time around? Annemehr: Keep in mind, when Sirius told Harry about the weapon, he was trying to keep things vague. Voldemort certainly did not have the full prophecy the "first time around" of trying to kill Harry. This is enough for me, but Your Mileage May Vary. probono: > Harry speculates at one point that this great weapon could actually > be him, but he dismisses the thought. But there are two other > important references to weapons in the book (methinks). 1) Filch is > described as a "weapon" in Umbridge's arsenal due to his Hogwart's > knowledge. 2) During Occlumency lessons, Snape tells Harry: "You are > allowing me access to memories you fear, handing me weapons!" > > It just seems that we, the readers, are possibly being misled about > this "weapon". If I were Voldy I would be thinking Harry is much > more useful alive then dead. In other words...a very valuable weapon. > > Your thoughts? > > probono Annemehr: Well... I think Voldemort feels that Harry is indeed his only potential obstacle, so he would want him dead. He still seems to need a good plan for accomplishing that, though. Still, I'm confused. Voldemort's attempt to AK Harry as soon as he found out the prophecy orb was truly broken seems to show that he has no other plans for him. Voldemort apparently had no fear whatever that this AK would backfire, in the same way that he had no fear to AK Harry in the graveyard. But, if all Voldemort thinks he needs to kill Harry is the Killing Curse, why all the effort spent to get the prophecy? Unless LV thought that he'd check the prophecy to make sure, but since it's apparently lost to him, it's back to the old AK. On the other hand, I agree about this Harry-as-weapon idea. First of all, because Harry would hate it (and whatever he hates, seems to happen to him). Secondly, he certainly seems to be a weapon for Dumbledore, notwithstanding that DD sees him as a human being first and foremost. That part at Christmastime, with Harry believing he was LV's weapon, was never resolved to my satisfaction, since Ginny's assurance that she knew what it was like to be possessed by Voldemort was false. Finally, there is the lesson of what the guard duty is about. When Harry first arrives at Grimmauld Place, Ron tells Harry that the Order members are always on guard duty, though he doesn't know what they are guarding. Harry says "Couldn't have been me, could it?" and they think that's it. Yet later, they find out that there is at least one other thing to guard, which is the door to the DoM. Well, what if there is also more than one weapon? There was the prophecy, and there's Harry. Maybe there's something else, too -- I for one don't think DD wants LV messing with what's behind the door that's kept locked. Now Voldemort's regrouping. The war is going to heat up. Voldemort is still going to try to AK Harry, and Dumbledore is going to try to prevent it. I think, meanwhile, LV may indeed try to use Harry again in some way. I don't think the scar connection is severed, and LV may try to use that. Just until he gets the chance to actually kill him, though. Annemehr From squeakinby at tds.net Wed May 5 19:51:36 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 14:51:36 -0500 Subject: What does Voldy want? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <409945C8.1020900@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97726 I'm not very good at understanding the mindsets of these hypercontrolling types so I'm missing something here and maybe it can be explained to me. Voldy wants to "control" the entire wizarding world? Why? For what end? Because it'll be fun in a sick, I-need-all-the-power kind of way? Would he then want to extend the control to the muggle world or would it just be better if all mudbloods were dead? When it was said that Lily and James were working against him, what do we imagine they were doing to stop him? Why kill Lily and James if all he had to do was kill Harry to prevent the prophecy from playing out unless they posed an actual threat to him? Sometimes as I'm reading these books I'm quite struck by how close they seem to parallel world events. "Spooky," as Gilderoy said. Jem From probono at rapidnet.com Wed May 5 18:57:30 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 18:57:30 -0000 Subject: map and diary was Re: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97727 > Potioncat: > I've never thought of that comparison before: Marauders leaving map > that was found and used to Riddle leaving diary which was found and > used. In neither case did the owner choose who would get it and in > both cases they were called "dark arts" by a trusted (by us) wizard. > (Although Snape calling the map dark arts is generally considered to > be a diversion.) > > Of course, the map was taken from the Marauders, but do we know how > Lucius got the diary? > Potioncat I don't think there is any definitive proof in canon, but at the end of CoS we know DD at least thinks Malfoy had much more than just Riddle's diary. "I would advise you, Lucius, not to go giving out any more of Lord Voldemort's old school things." Whether he was given the items by Voldemort himself or simply is a very shrewd collector...who knows? I, for one, am dying to know what else Lucius has hidden in that secret chamber at Malfoy Manor! From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed May 5 19:00:07 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 19:00:07 -0000 Subject: What am I missing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > What is all this about Snape's twins? > > Sylvia (who has beenaway for a week and seems to have come back into > a parallel universe) Annemehr: Ah, that's another point of confusion that came from an interview (much like the "Icicle" character rumor). Found it by searching Quick Quotes for "twins." Here are the relevant quotes: ******************************************** Press Club 20 October 1999 J.K. Rowling Interview Transcript Transcript Courtesy Sugarquill.net's Transcription Project [Press Club Intro] Sean Bowler: A while ago I read in the New York Times that Harry Potter was destined for greatness. Forgive me for my ignorance, but early this year, I had no idea who Harry Potter was. My wife and I had twins about five months ago. SB: Why in the first book does Harry's lightening scar flash, or when he gets his lightening scar flash, when Snap looks at him? JKR: Snape. SB: Snape. JKR: Okay, this is a [laughter] SB: I have a problem as well! JKR: He's sleep deprived, he's got five-month old twins. Um *exasperated noise* If anyone hasn't finished reading book one, would they please put their fingers really tightly in their ears now, if they don't want the ending ruined? Really tightly now, cause this is a question about the ending. Um Quirrell had the back of his head to Harry at the point when Harry looked at Snape, so someone else was looking at Harry through a certain turban. See what I mean? If you've read it, you understand, and if you haven't read it, you're going what? But that's okay. ***************************************************** Annemehr: The answer is the first sentence of JKR's reply: some people thought *Snape* had the twins, but they really belonged to the interviewer. By the way, there was something JKR said that seemed to contradict that last chat on March 4: **************************************************** SB: I'm going to ask one more. There were a lot of groans when I said we were going to wrap it up, so one more. What happened to Harry's grandparents? JKR: Um, various interesting things, but again, I'm not going to share. ***************************************************** Annemehr: That's odd, because recently she said their deaths weren't really important to the story, didn't she? From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Wed May 5 19:21:23 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 19:21:23 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical Metabolism Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97729 Caesian pointed out: *snips discussion of really good essay on food and drink in the wizarding world and of wizard body types* A few other things about this essay: 1. Growing school children (wizard or otherwise) need protein with which to grow. An old-fashioned place like the wizarding world will provide old-fashioned protein (meat, eggs, milk, cheese) and will have little or no use for yoghurt or tofu. (I suspect that if we ever visit another wizard school the cuisine will reflect local preferences -- Beauxbatons food probably is lighter, more elaborate, etc. than Hogwarts food. I bet the Asian wizard schools *do* serve tofo and very little meat.) 2. Until fairly recently, fruit and vegetables were available only on a seasonal basis. The wizarding world probably still does it that way -- although they can transport themselves instantaneously, they probably still get their farm produce from local farms. 3. In real life castles, the moat, lake, or pond nearby was the source of fresh fish for the inhabitants if they didn't live near a river or ocean. I can only assume that the Hogwarts lake doesn't have any fish, either because of the giant squid, because of the mer-people, or because of their habit of emptying their plumbing into it (yich). If there were any, Hagrid, outdoorsman that he is, would probably bring it to the Hogwarts kitchens. 4. I think a great deal of the food descriptions in the books is symbolic of the contrast between Hogwarts and the wizarding world, in which Harry is fed in body, mind, heart, and soul, and Privet Drive, where he is starved physically, told not to ask questions, and denied all love, friendship, or family solidarity. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed May 5 19:53:28 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 19:53:28 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97730 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Annemehr: > I'd rephrase that, and say that Tom needed access to the necessary > materials to make him powerful. To be evil, all he had to do was > choose it. > Or for evil to choose him. I'm still of the opinion that Voldy is more than Tom Riddle gone bad. Voldy is Tom plus something else, the most likely source of which is the Chamber. Before his excursions to the nether regions he'd probably been a not very nice, bitter and resentful teenager, but still a brilliant scholar. After entering the Chamber things change. Why change his name? Why this lust for power? Why this determination to eliminate mudbloods from Hogwarts when he was one himself? Well, there was a powerful wizard who wanted the mudbloods out way back in the past - Salazar Slytherin. He built the Chamber, he installed the Basilisk and if it's title is any indication he placed secrets (plural) in there. Just waiting for a suitable disciple/acolyte. His heir. Heirs inherit possessions. Heirs don't even have to be blood relations, just favoured by the previous owner. The ability to get into the Chamber may be sufficient to define Tom as heir to whatever was in there. What was it that Tom inherited from SS? Something really interesting, I'll bet, and it makes up the remaining fraction of Voldy. Kneasy From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 10:59:05 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 10:59:05 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Ms Mo Me wrote: > > I have often wondered, WHY and HOW did Voldemort get > > so bad? > > > > We know he had rough beginning. People have also > > speculated about the lack of love in his life. But, > > do you think that it is that ALONE that made him get > > so evil? > > Del replies : > Nope. I think the lack of love and the rough circumstances made him > hard, resentful and ambitious. And I think it's his *power* that > corrupted him in the end. Okay, but what about Sirius Black? Not only does most of his family (so sorry, pureblood, practically royal Wizarding family) hate him, but his mother despises him so much that by the time he's 16, he's out of the house for good. And he has a younger brother that, so far, seems to be the apple of his mother's eye. And yet, he is not evil from this lack of love. Yes, he got love and acceptance elsewhere, but how does anyone (ie Tom Riddle) grow up without *any* friends whatsoever? I'm just saying, if anyone in the story had motivation for turning evil because of a lack of love and would decide to take his hatred for his life, etc., out on m$&bloods, it seems like it would be Sirius, yet we know he's NOT evil. So how *does* TR become so evil by the age of 15? I don't get his motivation either. Susan From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 11:22:02 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:22:02 -0000 Subject: The thing they would miss most Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97732 Del wrote: >On a side note : the High Authorities most probably didn't plan on Dobby telling Harry that he was supposed to rescue Ron, and if I remember correctly, the Champions are not told who or what they are supposed to rescue before they go in the water. So if Harry had gone there without Dobby's info, can you imagine his nasty surprise at getting at the Merpeople's village and discovering that the 3 people that count most for him are all there, and then having to figure out on his own which one he's supposed to bring back ? Nasssty sssurprise, my Preciousssss, nasssty ! Actually, I noticed right away that all the people in the lake were people HP cared about. You might say, "But what about Gabrielle? He didn't even know her," but she's part Veela, whose very nature is the power of attraction, plus she's young, and clearly related to Fleur, whom HP does know. I also just thought it was odd that the 3 people HP cares about the most are there, plus we know the motivation for him saving the only person down there who's not connected to him in any way. Susan From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 15:02:46 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD=Harry?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040505150246.62932.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97733 vmonte responds: I can understand why people hate the idea of time travel. I'm not crazy about time travel either, it just seems to fit what I've been noticing in the books. If I'm wrong (I'm a Ron=DD believer) -- I will actually be happy! animallover_11: I have been trying to find some post explain the Ron=DD theory and I have not been able to. Do you think you can point me to right direction. Time travel is possibly the easy fix to try and explain certain situations and may not play a large role in the remaining books. I was also thinking about the fight in the MoM when LV possessed Harry. If in fact DD=Harry that could be why DD could not kill LV while he was Harry. If Harry is killed would that not kill DD as well? There is also the quote at the end where DD implies that there is some other relationship between himself and Harry. Many have been saying this has to do with him being Ron but it could just be that DD and Harry are the same person. That is something that LV could definitley use to his advantage. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlaming426 at aol.com Wed May 5 15:24:46 2004 From: jlaming426 at aol.com (jimlaming) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 15:24:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Army (DA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97734 Potioncat: All the more reason not to give DADA to Snape, unless his cover has been completely blown by that time. That and the unfortunate incident of the kappas. :-) Then Susan said: Uh, I always sort of figured that the reason DD won't give SS the DADA position is because DD thinks teaching DADA will be too much of a temptation for SS. I mean, the dark arts are quite powerful/empowering. And since we already sort of know that SS was involved with LV, DE's and the dark arts, why tempt him? Sort of like asking an alcoholic to run a pub... Jim imagines: Can you imagine Snape as the DADA? Think of the way he treats Neville and Harry in Potions, then transfer that teaching method to DADA! Neville would never have gained confidence like he did from Lupin and Harry would have been truly tortured learning to resist the Unforgivable Curses. No, Snape would hurt the DADA program (students) more than he would help it. The real Moody OTOH . Now there is a DADA Professor! JimLaming From miranda_mcgonagall37 at yahoo.ca Wed May 5 15:58:48 2004 From: miranda_mcgonagall37 at yahoo.ca (Nicole Lewis) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 11:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040505155848.55538.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97735 Rob wrote: (Big SNIP...sorry) If Grindelwald was a teacher then it would explain how Tom had access to all of the necessary materials to make him evil. Putting your teenage self in a diary seems like very complicated magic even for a prodigy. This would also explain why Tom is afraid of DD, because DD defeated his master. If you have any thoughts to strengthen or weaken this theory please post it. Miranda here: Good idea Rob! Even if TR was born into bad circumstances and with a genetic inclination towards evil, I've always thought that he had to have had some guidance into the dark side. At first I thought it would make more sense if Grindelwald was an older student at Hogwarts - Tom might be more inclined to listen to a fellow student - but I'm not sure that would make him old enough to be so feared and powerful by the time DD defeats him in 1945. Instead, I think the teacher idea works, for at Hogwarts at this time they could've taught Dark Arts, instead of just DADA. As well, this could mean that DD and Grindelwald could've gone to school at the same time... perhaps both to Hogwarts? Maybe the two were friends and studied to become great wizards together, but at some point diverged over ethical differences? This could develop DD's character quite nicely - not only did he kill TR's mentor, but someone who was once his own friend. Miranda --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 18:17:12 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 11:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weapons of Mass Destruction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040505181712.59201.qmail@web13809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97736 >probono wrote: It just seems that we, the readers, are possibly being misled about this "weapon". If I were Voldy I would be thinking Harry is much more useful alive then dead. In other words...a very valuable weapon. animallover_11: It is possible that with Harry dead that would be DD biggest fear and therfore his weakness. It seems that we hear often in the books that LV only fears DD. If this is the case, LV knows how much DD cares for Harry and that could be the weapon. If this is true then Harry is indeed the secret weapon LV is looking for. During the fight between DD and LV at the MoM it is LV who tries to use Harry against DD. LV knows that DD would never hurt Harry and by possessing Harry LV is inturn safe. This could be the reason why DD and the order are guarding him so closely. DD is one of the most powerful wizards and the only that LV fears (it has not yet been clearly stated that LV "fears" Harry). DD is trying to find LV weakness so he can destroy him forever as I am sure LV trying to do the same for DD. The problem is Harry may infact be the weakness for both of them. Which would mean that Harry may not make it out alive in the end. theanimallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anandini77 at hotmail.com Wed May 5 18:20:47 2004 From: anandini77 at hotmail.com (Anandini) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 18:20:47 -0000 Subject: Q's about Yule Ball Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97737 I'm not sure if this has already been discussed ... I tried to search for Yule Ball but couldn't find anything relevant ... I'm confused about the Yule Ball ... is it only held when there's a tri-wizard tournament? I don't remember hearing anything about it in previous books (which could be because its only for 4th years and above), or in OoTP. I'm pretty positive there wasn't a Yule Ball in OoTP, which would mean its only a tri-wizard tournament event, right? Please let me know if anyone has canon evidence that shows otherwise. Thanks!!! AS From hly1 at cant.ac.uk Wed May 5 18:56:14 2004 From: hly1 at cant.ac.uk (Helen Yates) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 19:56:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What does Voldy want? Message-ID: <4099A5AD@webmail.cant.ac.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 97738 Maybe Voldemort killed James and Lily because they were protecting Harry. Surely they would not give up Harry without a fight. H xxxxx The World of Helen Yates: http://www.geocities.com/ecco1983/index.htm From bunclaa at btconnect.com Wed May 5 15:13:45 2004 From: bunclaa at btconnect.com (Chris) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 15:13:45 -0000 Subject: FILK: New to group...my filks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97739 Hello I am new to the group, I found you thru the Filks web site. I will post more when I catch up on things and rules etc... I write Filks and fan fic re HP and love the sleuth stuff. I also play Lucius Malfoy in a Potter Role Play Group with yahoo Here are two of my filks To the tune Doh a Deer from The Sound of Music Harry and Hagrid Visit Diagon Alley A wand for spells and charms and smells A beast for post an owl will do Books Florish and Blotts the shop These you must read lots and lots A cauldron for Professor Snape Of course you will need a cape A hat, a student one will do That will bring us back to Ollivanders....... and from a nursey rhyme...... Lucius' Cane Song Twinkle twinkle emerald eyes Hiding my wand deep inside Mischief we're about to make Muggles are near the gate Twinkle twinkle emerald eyes Shall we play or make them fly. (OK I had a different ending first more DE apt 'Shall we play or will they die' but I thought it was a nursery rhyme so I'll make it 'cute') Regs Chris ><)))'> http://www.musiccorner.co.uk/chris.html From knjwilson at yahoo.com Wed May 5 19:39:45 2004 From: knjwilson at yahoo.com (knjwilson) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 19:39:45 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > I think evil in the Potterverse is a > collaborative act, not an individual one. It takes at least two > people, one who can rationalize a cruel or unjust act, and one > who doesn't need to. > > So, to take the Dursley household as an example, Petunia and > Vernon rationalize their behavior: it's necessary to hide Harry > from the neighbors and squash the magic out of him. Dudley > doesn't need to rationalize; he flat-out enjoys making Harry > miserable, and when he hasn't got Harry to pick on, he bullies > younger kids in the neighborhood and at school. > > As he's a child, it is his elders' business to make him feel > responsible for his choices by arranging appropriate > consequences. But this they have largely failed to do, and I think > the same thing happened to Tom, though as a result of neglect > rather than over-indulgence. Dudley grew up feeling he would be > rewarded whatever he did. Tom grew up feeling he would be > punished whatever he did. Neither learned to connect their > choices with the consequences. Yes, but contrast TR with Harry. Harry was punished whatever he did as well. As DD said, we are defined by our choices. Given the same unloved, deprived childhood Harry chose a different path from TR. Conscience is there, TR just ignored it. And TR's own bad choices were re-enforced by everyone else's bad choices, whether their intent was good or bad. John From squeakinby at tds.net Wed May 5 21:18:23 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 16:18:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What does Voldy want? In-Reply-To: <4099A5AD@webmail.cant.ac.uk> References: <4099A5AD@webmail.cant.ac.uk> Message-ID: <40995A1F.60708@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97741 Helen Yates wrote: > Maybe Voldemort killed James and Lily because they were protecting Harry. > Surely they would not give up Harry without a fight. > Yes, he killed Lily because she was there. James wasn't in the house, was he? Jem From msmerymac at yahoo.com Wed May 5 20:10:49 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 20:10:49 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97742 > Del replies : > Nope. I think the lack of love and the rough circumstances made him > hard, resentful and ambitious. And I think it's his *power* that > corrupted him in the end. Because he was so powerful, he could do > almost anything he wanted to satisfy his resentment and ambition. > And the more he did bad things, the more he eroded his conscience, > his sense of right and wrong. That's how he slowly turned > completely evil. Jen: > I was intrigued to hear JKR mention the "mysterious > circumstances surrounding TR's birth" that contributed to his evil > development. I can't imagine what happened, but there must be > something besides the deprivation & loss of his childhood. Luckie: Someone (I forgot who!) mentioned LV is often compared to Hitler (as is Grindelwald, who was defeated in the 1940s). Well, in the RW, what happens to make a person evil? Books, more books, essays and dissertations have been written on the "fact" that Hilter killed millions of people because he was a closet homosexual, Ted Bundy suffered from failed bonding attachment syndrome as a child, and Charles Manson never knew his father. Although I don't believe people are wholly evil, some are a lot higher on the spectrum than others. In essence, though we don't KNOW why some people are bad and some aren't. Why are some teens seemingly affected by violent video games and music more than others? If someone is the child of an alcoholic, they may be predisposed to BE an alcoholic, but won't be one necessarily. So, it all comes back to choices. We've seen that Harry and Voldy share many similar characteristics - dead parents, half blood, raised by horrible muggles, parselmouth, occlumency/legilimency(?). But Harry isn't evil. (And I don't think he will become evil!) Neville *appears* to share characteristics with Peter, but has proven his courage, not cowardice. I agree that it's puzzling *why* LV would chose to be so against m*dbloods, when he himself is a halfblood. Power corrupts. But where did he get this power? And why did he seek it through dark arts? The Grindelwald theory is indeed plausible, though something would have had to happen that demonstrated to Grindy that young Riddle was corruptible, or Riddle would have had to realize his affinity for dark arts before he sought a mentor. ~Luckie, who wonders what RL person JKR knew that could inspire her depiction of LV! From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed May 5 20:28:12 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 20:28:12 -0000 Subject: Q's about Yule Ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97743 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anandini" wrote: > I'm not sure if this has already been discussed ... I tried to search > for Yule Ball but couldn't find anything relevant ... > > I'm confused about the Yule Ball ... is it only held when there's a > tri-wizard tournament? I don't remember hearing anything about it in > previous books (which could be because its only for 4th years and > above), or in OoTP. I'm pretty positive there wasn't a Yule Ball in > OoTP, which would mean its only a tri-wizard tournament event, right? > > Please let me know if anyone has canon evidence that shows otherwise. > > Thanks!!! > > AS The Yule Ball is (according to McGonagal, IIRC) a traditional part of the Triwizard Tournament: dancing is led by the school champions and they are seated at a head table with the judges as guests of honor. The Yule Ball is not a part of the Hogwarts Christmas celebration. Hope this helps. Meri - looking forward to the end of finals so she can reread her HP in peace From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 5 20:49:23 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 20:49:23 -0000 Subject: Q's about Yule Ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97744 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: Meri: > The Yule Ball is (according to McGonagal, IIRC) a traditional part > of the Triwizard Tournament: dancing is led by the school champions > and they are seated at a head table with the judges as guests of > honor. The Yule Ball is not a part of the Hogwarts Christmas > celebration. Hope this helps. Geoff: Your recollection is quite correct. The relevant canon is actually.... '"Now Potter and Weasley have decided to act their ages," said Professor McGonagall....... "I have something to say to you all. The Yule Ball is approaching - a traditional part of the Triwizard Tournament and an opportunity for us to socialise with our foreign guests...." (GOF "The Unexpected Task" p.336 UK edition) 'He (Harry) felt himself going red. "I don't dance," he said quickly. "Oh yes, you do," said Professor McGonagall irritably. "That's what I'm telling you. Traditionally, the champions and their partners open the ball."' (same chapter but p.338) From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed May 5 21:08:11 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 21:08:11 -0000 Subject: Grandparents redux (was Re: What am I missing?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97745 Annemehr: > By the way, there was something JKR said that seemed to contradict > that last chat on March 4: > > **************************************************** > SB: I'm going to ask one more. There were a lot of groans when I said > we were going to wrap it up, so one more. What happened to Harry's > grandparents? > > JKR: Um, various interesting things, but again, I'm not going to share. > > ***************************************************** > > Annemehr: > That's odd, because recently she said their deaths weren't really > important to the story, didn't she? Eustace_Scrubb: What she said at World Book Day was "They're all dead and not particularly important to the story, although you will find out a little bit more." To nitpick she said _they_ aren't important to the story...of course not, as they're dead and unless there's a lot of timeturning, they won't be in the story. Yet this doesn't rule out finding "various interesting things" about what happened to them...such as how/when/why they died? I still have to believe that their deaths will have some importance although they themselves may not...of all the gaps in our knowledge this frustrates my muggle logic the most...apparently alive and in good health when James was an upper level student at Hogwarts, his parents (and Lily's) are all dead within the next few years (roughly four, is it?) by the time Harry is orphaned. This is just too much of a coincidence for me. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From miranda_mcgonagall37 at yahoo.ca Wed May 5 20:54:49 2004 From: miranda_mcgonagall37 at yahoo.ca (Nicole Lewis) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 16:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040505205449.37413.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97746 Caesian, who hopes it will be the nursery where Snape keeps his twins, wrote: Now that the war is on, it seems extremely dangerous to continue to use Grimmauld Place as headquarters - DEs lurking in the bins outside and such. Does anyone else think the Order will move headquarters? Where to? Miranda here: Maybe it will be at Snape's house! Seriously, another members house is a likely candidate for a new Headquarters. I imagine most Order members - especially DD and Snape - would protect their homes with spells. And it doesn't make sense for the Order to remain at Grimmauld Place. First of all, talk about bad memories! As well, I agree that the location may be too risky now. And most of all, that would break JKR's pattern of introducing new locations in the books. Every summer Harry goes somewhere new - after 1st year it was the Burrow, after 2nd year it was Tom's Pub/Diagon Alley (okay, so this isn't quite "new"), after 3rd year it was the Quidditch world cup, and after 4th year it was Grimmauld Place. At the very least, the Order (if it is recognized by the Ministry) might get some kind of location in the MoM that we haven't seen before. Miranda (who wonders what Snape would name his children if he did have some...) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 5 21:28:06 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 21:28:06 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97747 John: >>Yes, but contrast TR with Harry. Harry was punished whatever he didas well. As DD said, we are defined by our choices. Given the sameunloved, deprived childhood Harry chose a different path from TR.Conscience is there, TR just ignored it. And TR's own bad choiceswere re-enforced by everyone else's bad choices, whether their intent was good or bad.<< Hmmm. Harry didn't have much of a conscience when he came to Hogwarts, IMO. IIRC, it's not until Year Four that he actually feels guilty about something *before* he gets caught. Gryffindor was a good influence on him. Harry asked not to be in Slytherin mostly because he liked Ron, Draco reminded him of Dudley, and because it was, according to Hagrid, not only Voldemort's house but the only house that produced Dark Wizards (which is untrue). We can imagine Tom meeting a more sympathetic Slytherin than Draco and a less likeable Gryffindor than Ron. Perhaps he was told that all the Marvolo's have been in Slytherin, which, according to McGonagall, has a noble history and has produced outstanding witches and wizards. If the Hat chose Slytherin for him, would he have argued with it as Harry did? Harry was lucky. And he had the courage to argue with the hat. That's what made him a true Gryffindor. But where his courage came from who can say? Oddly enough, it might be Petunia. It would take a certain kind of courage to take a child whom you dislike and fear under your protection: a situation not unlike the one Harry and Hermione faced with Grawp. Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed May 5 21:56:15 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 21:56:15 -0000 Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: <20040505205449.37413.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97749 > Miranda (who wonders what Snape would name his children if he did have some...) Siriusly Snapey Susan says: Why, something like SSSusan and SSSylvia, of course!! ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan [who's got a message for JustCarol--I got elected to the school board yesterday!] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 5 22:07:41 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 22:07:41 -0000 Subject: Fantastic Discussions & Where to Find Them. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97750 The subject of the 'Good Slytherin' has come up again recently, and I thought I would take a shot at tracking down some of the old discussions for anyone who might be interested. The Good Slytherin(s)- --------------------- Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:48 pm Subject: Switching houses http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/93350 Discusses JKR's comment that someone would switch Houses. Indirectly touches on the 'Good Slytherin' subject. Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:00 am Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91320 Nice long thread that touches on several aspects of the latest book including the Good Slytherin. Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:43 am Subject: Re: The Good Slytherin - Stringy & Weedy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/84984 Discusses who likely candidate are for the Good Slytherin. Subject line refers to the books describing one Slytherin as 'weedy' and another one as 'stringy'. Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:22 am Subject: What the Sorting Hat REALLY Said, and The Good Slytherin. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/84899 Discussion of whether Harry said he want to be Gryffindor or if he simply said 'not Slytherin'. Additional thought on the Good Slytherin. Started with a discussion of the Sorting Hat and how it works. Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:27 pm Subject: Thestrals and Slytherins http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71039 Starts as a discussion of the 'stringy' Slytherin who could see the Thestral and quickly switches to this title "Good Slytherin (Was: Re: Thestrals and Slytherins)". While I was at it, I stumble across a few links to- Black Family Estate Inheritance ------------------------------- Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 5:05 am Subject: Grimmauld Place http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75450 Inheritance thread is restarted. Later in thread links are posted to old inheritance discussions. Jun 29 - OOP: the Inheritance? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/65763 Jul 1 - OoP: Re: Question - inheritance thread...(& Winky) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/66493 Jul 23 - Dead Men Tell No Lies (was: inheritance) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/72691 Jul 22 - Inheritance - Kreacher - Dead or Alive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/72476 Aug 1 - Kreacher & House-Elf Relocation http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74791 Aug 2 - Re: Silly Questions (that may never be answered) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74859 Too bad the Yahoo groups search facility is so bad. There is a lot of really great information contained in those old discussions. It's hard to believe that a company (Yahoo) that was founded as a search engine has such poor searching capability. For what it's worth, here are some links to previous discussions of the DA Club. This list is far from complete; just a could links I stumbled across when searching for 'Good Slytherin'. The DA Club ----------- Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:33 pm Subject: Practice, Practice, Practice, & Play http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71004 Discusses the DA Club and the areas where the DA members need to improve. Touches on the Good Slytherin. Discussion of realistic changes that could be made at the Dursley's to impove Harry's life there. Date: Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:32 pm Subject: OoP: the DA (was:Dd's treatment to Harry) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/63344 General discussion of the nature of the DA Club. Just Passing it along. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 5 23:09:15 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 23:09:15 -0000 Subject: OWL EXAM CACULATIONS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97751 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Does anyone have a statistical view of how the OWL marks should fall? > There are O, E, A for the passing grade, correct? P and D would both > be failures? So how many students would reasonably be able to take > Transfigurations or Potions? How many would be expected to pass? I > know Snape said his classes had a high pass rate. > > ... I was wondering how large the classes might be and who we might > see placed together. ... one class of all 4 houses. Of course, a > student could pass an OWL, but not need the NEWT level for > their chosen career. > > IIRC, JKR ... Would she be familiar with the bell curve? Or does > that theory even hold water any more? > > Potioncat bboy_mn; I discussed school grades briefly in - Date: Thu Apr 29, 2004 Subject: Re: OWLS http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/97262 Although, it doesn't necessarily directly answer any of your questions. First let's put the wizards grades into a format that most U.S. citizens are familiar with A = O = Outstanding B = E = Exceeds Expectations C = A = Acceptable D = P = Poor F = T = Troll or Terrible In my day (he said croakily) we didn't use a curve, grades were stickly by percentage and with little mercy. To the best of my recollection- A = 100% to 94% (pass) B = 93% to 87% (pass) C = 86% to 80% (pass) D = 79% to 75% (just barely pass) F = below 75% (fail) Very few kids today could wtihstand a grading system like that. In the wizard world, I suspect each teacher sets their own grading standard and assigns the wizard letter grades accordingly. Next, let's remember that there is a difference between passing an OWL and getting into NEWT classes. Snape demands Outstanding to get into NEWT Level; McGongall requires Exceeds Expectations. So what happens if you get a passing 'Acceptable' in Tranfigurations? You passed the class but don't meet the qualifications for the NEWT class; then what? So, is there a standard grade form 6 & 7 Transfiguration class as well as a NEWT Level Advanced Transfiguration class? The Standard as well as the Advanced option is possible but it doesn't seem very logical. I guess, on one hand, we could consider the Standard grade class like techincal school, and the Advance NEWT class more like Junior College. Personally, I consider the whole concept of NEWT classes like Junior College. To model it after the muggle world, when you get your high school diploma (OWLs), you either go off to join the working world, or you go to college/university. That's how I see the wizard world. Of course, that ignores the techincal/trade/vocational school aspect of the real world, but I suspect in the wizard world, the equivalent of techincal/trade schools are on-the-job apprenticeships. I don't think we really know enough to resolve this. All the senior classmates that Harry knows (that we also know about), essentially amounts to the Grif. Quidditch team and Lee Jordan, all fo which continue to study at Hogwarts after OWLs, but we see very very very few students above (or below) Harry's year, so we have no indication whether a significant number of students left after OWLs. I lean in that direction. I want to see, and reasonably expect, the class sizes to be small and perhaps even structured differently. Because of that, I could very easily see all the houses together in one classroom; perhaps even, in some cases, merging 6th and 7th years into one class. That certainly opens the door to more interaction between Harry, and Slytherin and Rawenclaw houses, and even opens the door to Harry getting to know some Slytherins who are outside Draco's influence. Draco is the classic 'popular' or 'cool' kid and leader of the 'popular' crowd. He is rich, has nice clothes, an obvious leader, confident, outgoing, teacher's pet, and an athlete; that spells popular kid in nearly every school in the world. However, we all know from our own experience that while the popular kids are admired by many (usually including the staff), they are deeply despised by others. Look at Giffindor's reaction to popular, cool, handsome, athletic Hufflepuff Cedric. I suspect that there are a few Slytherins who deeply loath Draco, and would like nothing better that to see him take a serious fall. However, as again we all know from our own school days, you will always have a difficult time challenging a popular kid. Mainly because the school including the staff will usually take the side of that popular kids. Even more so, it is my opinion that some Slytherin, while they do support the concept of wizard aristocracy, they think having a total mental case like Voldemort in charge will be the literal, and certainly the financial, ruin of the wizard world. From these ranks of proud, noble but more stable and cash conscious Slytherin will come the ranks of the 'Good Slytherins'. They will fight against Voldemort mostly because it is the most economically advantages option. I guess you could say it is one thing to be driven by power, but something else altogether, to be blinded by power. Just passing it along. bboy_mn From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 23:27:33 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 16:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040505232733.54617.qmail@web50001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97752 Susan wrote:Okay, but what about Sirius Black? Not only does most of his family (so sorry, pureblood, practically royal Wizarding family) hate him, but his mother despises him so much that by the time he's 16, he's out of the house for good. And he has a younger brother that, so far, seems to be the apple of his mother's eye. And yet, he is not evil from this lack of love. Yes, he got love and acceptance elsewhere, but how does anyone (ie Tom Riddle) grow up without *any* friends whatsoever? I'm just saying, if anyone in the story had motivation for turning evil because of a lack of love and would decide to take his hatred for his life, etc., out on m$&bloods, it seems like it would be Sirius, yet we know he's NOT evil. So how *does* TR become so evil by the age of 15? I don't get his motivation either. Susan My reply: Sirius had Andromeda, who by all accounts was just as rebellious as he was. She married a muggle-born. And I would garner to guess she also defied her family by chosing a different house (Ravenclaw, Gryffindor maybe?). Sirius followed in her footsteps to some degree. I know it's debateable how close the two are but I personally believe that Black girls spent a great deal more time over at 12 Grimmauld Place than originally thought. Think about how much Kreacher adored Bellatrix, he obviously knew her well. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ksargean at gonzaga.edu Wed May 5 21:16:24 2004 From: ksargean at gonzaga.edu (kitkateseven) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 21:16:24 -0000 Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: <003601c4325f$eff577a0$6901a8c0@brmkam> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97753 > Lady Kate: > > I have also wondered that with Sirius dead, who would inherit Grimmauld Place? > Would it be Narcissa, and thus by marriage Lucius Malfoy? That could have some > interesting implications back at Hogwarts. I'd always just kind of assumed that Harry, as Sirius' godson and definitely the person who Sirius favors more than anyone in his own biological family, would inherit everything--including Grimmauld Place. Of course, that alone might make the house suspect. Also, would Sirius have put Harry in his will before his arrest? If not, can wizards make changes to legal documents from Azkaban? --Kate From msmerymac at yahoo.com Thu May 6 00:05:44 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 00:05:44 -0000 Subject: OWL EXAM CACULATIONS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97754 "potioncat" > wrote: > Does anyone have a statistical view of how the OWL marks should fall? > There are O, E, A for the passing grade, correct? P and D would both > be failures? So how many students would reasonably be able to take > Transfigurations or Potions? How many would be expected to pass? I > know Snape said his classes had a high pass rate. > > IIRC, JKR ... Would she be familiar with the bell curve? Or does > that theory even hold water any more? bboy_mn wrote: > First let's put the wizards grades into a format that most U.S. > citizens are familiar with > > A = O = Outstanding > B = E = Exceeds Expectations > C = A = Acceptable > D = P = Poor > F = T = Troll or Terrible > Luckie: I'd like to add a comparison to the American Advanced Placement exams, which some people may or may not be familiar with. For AP exams the grading system is 1-5, with 5 being the highest. When I tool AP American history, many students in my class got a 4 or 5 on the exam, although only the top 15% I believe got 4 or 5. On the other hand, a friend at another school told me most of her class mates got 1 or 2. Therefore, my teacher had a high pass rate, like Snape. bboy_mn mentioned junior college in a part I snipped. Most colleges will transfer credit from the AP exams if you get a 4 or 5, and sometimes a 3. For some subjects, they will only take a 4 or 5, or even just a 5. Just like McGonagall and Snape having different standards for entries into NEWT classes. The only problem I see with a bell curve is that if Snape has a high pass rate, that would mean most of the students do well on his Potions exam. In my AP classes, the bell cruve was distributed across the country, so it was possible for there to be a high pass rate in my class. But with a curve, in theory only about 5% would get an O, 10% would get an E, and so on. If the Hogwarts Students are the only students taking this exam, then only 5% of Harry's class will be able to get an O. ~Luckie, who does not think JKR researched the American Advanced Placement system, but feels it merits comparison anyway. From mandy_croyance at msn.com Thu May 6 00:08:23 2004 From: mandy_croyance at msn.com (Amanda) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 00:08:23 -0000 Subject: Inaugural address and Mandy Croyance on Assumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: > > We have canon that Bellatrix was in Slytherin, though; she's in the > list of the 'gang of Slytherins who all became Death Eaters' Sirius > gives us in GoF. Agree that not all DEs are Slytherins, but... Mandy Croyance: I know we have evidence that Bellatrix was in the Slytherin house. The main focus of throwing things like that into my article was to provoke a response. Yet, I don't agree that Bellatrix is a Slytherin at heart. In fact I doubt many people in the Slytherin house deserve to be there at all. This is a subject I plan to go into at a later date when I too am done with massive school pressures. The geist of it is that most purebloods from bigotted families choose to go into Slytherin (even though it is recommended for them to be placed elsewhere) because they are conditioned to do so. I also plan to argue that it is their home condition and not the house that is the key factor in turning many 'evil'. > To make an argument I'm working on in more detail short (it'll be > posted when papers/finals/master classes are over), because > Slytherins *in general* have the most to gain from following > Voldemort. While blood is not the sole defining characteristic of > Slytherin House, we're not sure whether half-blood Tom Riddle is an > exception or more widely permitted, but we know that Slytherin won't > take Muggleborns. Mandy Croyance: I also am mulling many of the same ideas. I would like to argue that half-bloods are usual but not exceptional. I think that in order to be accepted into the house without pure-blood status one would have to have increased qualifications (e.g. cunning and ambition). In addition, Slytherin was against muggle-borns because he did not trust them (a viable stance at the time), but I personally don't remember any canon evidence to say he also refused half-bloods. Please prove me wrong (I enjoy being proven wrong). > My hypothesis? This kind of exclusion has put a > profound damper on any potential corrections or re-engagements > provided by an influx of people with new ideas, meaning that > Slytherin House has a tendency to a certain cultural homogeneity... > > And cultural homogeneity is something that Voldemort wants. Getting > rid of Muggleborns and half-bloods, putting the purebloods in > power...this is the agenda that a lot of people in the WW *agreed* > with, before Voldemort started killing people and showed how ruthless > he is. Who has the most to gain from this? The pureblooded. The > rich and pureblooded (Malfoys, Blacks) preserve their status which is > challenged by a meritocratic system and an influx of outsiders, the > less well-off but still pureblooded (Snape? perhaps--explains some > things) get a gain in status. > Mandy Croyance: That is a very well developed thesis and I will enjoy it when it is published. In many respects you are correct. The situation is very much like WWII. Of course it is not the most well thought out plan on Voldemort's side. When accomplished it would created a very static society in terms of demography. This could not last especially as it would also create a class of aristocrats who would gladly remove a tyrant from power to assume it themselves. History is a great model of the contrariness of rebels. Inbreeding would become even more integral to the functioning of such a society and deformities aboud. As far as we know the wizarding world is nowhere near the size of the muggle world and the number of pure-blooded families is painfully small. It has already been said that wizards would have died out had they not married muggles. The benefits to the those who follow him will be very rewarding... if he wins. This is not an assured fact and would it also not be rewarding to any pureblood who sat on the side lines? Ambition likely causes some people to actively pursue their goal but if they did not they too would still recieve status is Voldemort won, but would lose nothing if he lost. It would be unwise to kill them for not participating as that would further reduce the availability of purebloods to breed and increase inbreeding. I think there are many fence sitters who may "change sides" as Voldemort gains power. > I think that the blood ideology is not merely a mask for an > unadulterated power grab, but something significant. Voldemort has > gotten to the point where he really believes his own propaganda... Mandy Croyance: While prehaps there is more to it than a 'power grab', I think the blood ideology is less integral to Voldemort's plot then it appears. Much in the same way that the gentlemen disliked and seperated themselves from the poor throughout the centuries I think it is a similar tactic. Voldemort certainly believes his own propaganda to a point, but whether it has consumed him is debatable. Firstly the propaganda is nowhere near properly spread thoughout society. Before the American civil war, even many of the slaves believed themselves to be inferior to their white masters and few even considered running away. We know the situation does not exist even close to such. I would go into how Voldemort is doing everything wrong, but I will say that I wouldn't be surprised if with age he has come to realized there is nothing wrong with muggle-borns except their ideas and there is no better way of ralling the troops then by exploiting their ignorance of the same fact. Mandy Croyance "Some say one must put things into perspective. I encourage taking things out of it." ? Mandy Croyance (I love quoting myself) From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 00:34:47 2004 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 17:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] James or Lilly killed first? In-Reply-To: <40995A1F.60708@tds.net> Message-ID: <20040506003447.52037.qmail@web60105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97756 I'm sure this has been covered, but please refresh my recollection. I thought that James was killed by LV first, then Voldie went to AK Harry, but Lilly got in the way and then he killed her. But in GOF, James comes out of LV's wand first, then Lilly. What's up with that? Owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 02:34:59 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 19:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Implications of talking by fireplace In-Reply-To: <1083728352.5193.97872.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040506023459.49577.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97758 Message: 1 Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:19:16 EDT From: LWalshETAL at aol.com Subject: Implications of talking by fireplace "sbursztynski" : > Since the WW doesn't have "fellytones" and seems to be in contact by > fireplace/floo powder, how would you contact friends just for a chat? > James and Sirius had that two-way mirror. It would seem that that would be a lot more comfortable and easier to use. Laura Walsh LWalshETAL at aol.com Mo: Or, why not just step into the floo network and go over to your friend's house directly? That would make much more sense than kneeling in an uncomfortable fireplace. I think the only reason Sirius knelt into the fire was because it was too dangerous to go into hogwarts directly. What I am curious to know is how the fireplaces are connected to the floo network in Hogwarts when no one is even allowed to apparate there.... ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu May 6 03:00:18 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 23:00:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Order will be moving Headquarters Message-ID: <48.2b61ce6f.2dcb0442@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97759 In a message dated 5/5/2004 8:17:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ksargean at gonzaga.edu writes: > Lady Kate: > > I have also wondered that with Sirius dead, who would inherit Grimmauld Place? > Would it be Narcissa, and thus by marriage Lucius Malfoy? That could have some > interesting implications back at Hogwarts. I'd always just kind of assumed that Harry, as Sirius' godson and definitely the person who Sirius favors more than anyone in his own biological family, would inherit everything--including Grimmauld Place. ======================= Sherrie here: IMHO, no one will be inheriting Grimmauld Place - because if Dumbly is as smart as he seems, he won't inform anyone of Sirius' death. IIRC, the ONLY people who saw Sirius fall through the Veil were Order members and Bella - everyone else was either out of it, or involved in their own little battles. Bella's off with Lord Thingy - and the Order members will, if Dumbledore tells them to, keep their lips zipped. Not only would a Sirius still legally "alive" moot the question of inheritance of #12, leaving the Order free to maintain it as their Super Secret HQ, but the continued search for him ("Sirius Black Spotted in Tajikistan! Details at eleven!") would serve as a distraction for Fudge - giving Dumbly a freer hand to run the war as he sees fit. And with the Auror in charge of the search a member of the Order, should be a fairly easy thing to keep up the deception for a year or so... Sherrie (who's been watching too many reruns of THE MAN FROM UNCLE, I think) "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 6 03:15:28 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 03:15:28 -0000 Subject: OWL EXAM CACULATIONS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97760 Luckie wrote: > > The only problem I see with a bell curve is that if Snape has a high > pass rate, that would mean most of the students do well on his > Potions exam. In my AP classes, the bell cruve was distributed across > the country, so it was possible for there to be a high pass rate in > my class. But with a curve, in theory only about 5% would get an O, > 10% would get an E, and so on. If the Hogwarts Students are the only > students taking this exam, then only 5% of Harry's class will be able > to get an O. > Potioncat: Actually you brought up a good point, this is much too small a group to apply a bell curve to. Particularly since we know at least one class has a high "pass" rate. At any rate, these NEWT classes must be tiny! Although I guess those who need to be there for the plot will somehow make it. The test is standardized and it's very possible that both Snape and McGonagall have set higher standards than the test has. And that may be to keep the NEWT level classes small. Potioncat (who is embarrassed to see a glaring typo in her subject heading about education.) From helen at odegard.com Thu May 6 04:37:14 2004 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 21:37:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD=Harry?! In-Reply-To: <20040505150246.62932.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003801c43323$ce787810$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 97761 animallover_11: I have been trying to find some post explain the Ron=DD theory and I have not been able to. Do you think you can point me to right direction. Time travel is possibly the easy fix to try and explain certain situations and may not play a large role in the remaining books. I was also thinking about the fight in the MoM when LV possessed Harry. If in fact DD=Harry that could be why DD could not kill LV while he was Harry. If Harry is killed would that not kill DD as well? There is also the quote at the end where DD implies that there is some other relationship between himself and Harry. Many have been saying this has to do with him being Ron but it could just be that DD and Harry are the same person. That is something that LV could definitley use to his advantage. animallover_11 >From Helen (LizardLaugh): http://www.knight2king.net :) Enjoy! The clues fit Ron=DD more than they fit Harry=DD. In fact, if Dumbledore is someone other than Dumbledore, my money is on another Weasley. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu May 6 04:49:12 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 04:49:12 -0000 Subject: Book 6 coming soon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97762 SiriusBlack4Eternity wrote: > Ok...now a friend pointed me to the following site. You can read > the article and if you want to see more, you can find > it at the following site: > > http://www.cinescape.com/0/editorial.asp? Bookworm: The above link didn't work when I tried it, but I found the article through this link: http://www.cinescape.com/0/editorial.asp? aff_id=0&this_cat=Books&action=page&type_id=&cat_id=270442&obj_id=414 63 > SCOOP: Inside word on the next HARRY POTTER book? > Could Harry's next book be out by the end of September? > Dateline: Wednesday, May 5, 2004 > By: PATRICK SAURIOL According to the scooper, a notice was sent to all book publishers that print J.K. Rowling's HARRY POTTER novels stating that "they needed to be prepared to print copies of the next HP book by no later than September 8, 2004." Bookworm: Ah, the fun of conflicting rumors. I also saw this article (http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_942773.html? menu=news.celebrities) that reports: "JK Rowling says she's too busy to write an episode of Dr Who for the BBC. But she told them she was too busy writing the sixth Harry Potter novel, which is scheduled for publication next summer." Neither the Scholastic nor Bloomsbury sites have any announcement posted. Maybe next summer's solstice? Ravenclaw Bookworm From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 04:49:02 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 04:49:02 -0000 Subject: Poison intentions? (was Re: What does Snape owe Harry?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97763 Carol: > > I can't find any reference where JKR actually tells us not to be too fond of Snape. If you mean the October 12 1999 Connection interview where JKR says, "He's not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye," I get exactly the opposite impression from those words: i.e., he *seems* unpleasant, but we should keep an eye on him because he's not what he seems. > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > There's this one, Carol: > "Yes, but you shouldn't think he's too nice. Let me just say that. > It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely." [Royal > Albert Hall interview, 2003] > > It doesn't say exactly what you were asking about, but I thought I'd > send it along anyway. There is also this bit, which I find humorous: > > "I really like Snape. I mean, I wouldn't want to have a dinner with > him, but as a character he's great because he's complicated and quite nasty." [Newsweek web exclusive, 2003] > Thanks, SSS. That first one must be the right quote, though, like you, I like the second one better. (Hey, even *I* never said he was "nice," but that doesn't mean he's not redeemable.) Okay, so maybe he'll do something really nasty in Book 6--bad enough to make us think he may have gone over to Voldie--but in Book 7 he shows where his loyalties really lie, saves Harry and sends snakelike cords wrapping around Lucius Malfoy with a well-placed "bang" from his wand. Or something like that. I really don't want Snape to AK anybody, not even Malfoy or Bellatrix. Not because I'm soft, but because of the soul-corroding powers of the Unforgiveables. Severus has enough sins to account for already without adding to his burden. Carol P.S. Are those interviews in the Lexicon interview search engine? I didn't find didn't find those quotes there. C. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu May 6 04:59:00 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 04:59:00 -0000 Subject: Book 6 coming soon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97764 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > SiriusBlack4Eternity wrote: > > Ok...now a friend pointed me to the following site. You can read > > the article and if you want to see more, you can find > > it at the following site: > > > > http://www.cinescape.com/0/editorial.asp? > > Bookworm: > The above link didn't work when I tried it, but I found the article > through this link: > http://www.cinescape.com/0/editorial.asp? > aff_id=0&this_cat=Books&action=page&type_id=&cat_id=270442&obj_id=414 > 63 > > > SCOOP: Inside word on the next HARRY POTTER book? > > Could Harry's next book be out by the end of September? > > Dateline: Wednesday, May 5, 2004 > > By: PATRICK SAURIOL > > According to the scooper, a notice was sent to all book > publishers that print J.K. Rowling's HARRY POTTER novels stating > that "they needed to be prepared to print copies of the next HP book > by no later than September 8, 2004." > > Bookworm: > Ah, the fun of conflicting rumors. I also saw this article > (http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_942773.html? > menu=news.celebrities) that reports: > > "JK Rowling says she's too busy to write an episode of Dr Who for > the BBC. But she told them she was too busy writing the sixth > Harry Potter novel, which is scheduled for publication next summer." > > Neither the Scholastic nor Bloomsbury sites have any announcement > posted. Maybe next summer's solstice? > > Ravenclaw Bookworm Antosha: Very interesting. Knowing a little about the business of books, I can tell you that, if we don't start hearing a lot of concrete rumors soon, the book won't come out this fall. It'll take a massive coordination of resources to get the millions of copies of book six printed on two continents, not to mention distributed, not to mention marketed (though I wouldn't think they'd have to do a whole lot of advertising). There'll be book six games and action figures to design and get on the shelves by no later than October 1, if they're to be sold by December 25.... I'm still crossing my fingers for a Fall 2004 publication, but the odds seem better for Spring 2005, in time for the summer reading season. That's leave the next fall clear for the GoF film. At least, here's hoping. ;-) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 05:46:16 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 05:46:16 -0000 Subject: But Why does it Have to be Lupin? (was:Kreacher, Buckbeak ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97765 Erin challenged Pippin: Really? And you think Kreacher would have taken orders from- or even acknowledged the presence of- Lupin? Lupin the half-blood? Lupin the werewolf? On the contrary, Kreacher hated Lupin along with most of the other members of the OotP. Consider his diatribe in Chapter Six: "...oh my poor Mistress, if she knew, if she knew the scum they've let in her house, what would she say to old Kreacher, oh the shame of it, Mudbloods and WEREWOLVES and traitors and thieves..." (emphasis added) No, the spy communicating with Kreacher would have had to have been someone that Kreacher respected enough to work with. For instance, a Weasley. Kreacher's only beef with *them* is that they don't support pure-blood superiority. But what if one of them secretly did? Now I wonder which Weasley could secretly be Ever-So-Evil? Carol: I read "traitors" as referring to the Weasleys as a group, "blood traitors" who associate with and befriend Muggle-borns (and in Arthur's case, actual Muggles when he can find them): "Nasty little brat of a blood traitor it is," as Kreacher says about Fred, and then includes "its twin," George, in the next slur: "unnatural little beasts they are." (OoP Am. ed. 108) Somehow, I can't see Kreacher having any dealings with the Weasleys if he can help it. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 06:00:23 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 06:00:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's reporting methods In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040504080519.029048d0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97766 Tanya Swaine wrote: > While I was reading GOF, yet again. Something registered with me, for the first time about Snape's reporting methods. First, here is the segment in the book Harry saw his own face change smoothly into Snape's, who opened his mouth and spoke to the ceiling, his voice echoing slightly. He peered over the top of his half-moon spectacles at > Harry, who was gaping at Snape's face, which was continuing to swirl around the bowl. Right, reading this, it had me wondering. I have heard often that Snape is likely to report regularly to Dumbledore, and as these are Dumbledore's personal memories. I wonder if the fact that Snape is not looking at Dumbledore while talking, whether that actually helps him with occulumcy. If he doesn't have a visual memory. Carol: I'm not quite sure what you mean in that last part. Are you saying that DD doesn't have a visual memory of Snape because Snape wasn't looking at him? The way I read the scene, Dumbledore is focusing on people (Harry, Bertha Jorkins, Snape) and so the people show up in the Pensieve out of their context. Harry is not actually inside these memories--in Snape's case, he's looking down into the bowl and Memory!Snape is looking up because he's inside the bowl. If Harry were to enter the memory, IMO Snape would be looking directly at Dumbledore as he would in any ordinary conversation. I don't think it has anything to do with occlumency or Snape's own visual memories. It's Snape's words (which in any case conjure up a vivid image) that are important here--at least to us as readers, even if DD had already made the connection for himself. Carol From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Thu May 6 06:07:08 2004 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 06:07:08 -0000 Subject: Author's Prison traps release dates of books six and seven. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97767 I thought I'd point out a logical progression of books and movies in relation to their release dates. June 2003 saw Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (book) June 2004 sees Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (movie) November 2005 sees Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (movie) -if following same production time as previous three June 2006 will see book 6 June 2007 will see Harry potter and the Order of the Phoenix (movie) after a half year break to release the previous book and give consumers enough space to recover from each release date November 2008 will see Harry Potter 6 as a movie June 2009 will see Harry Potter book 7 June-November 2010 will see Harry Potter movie 7 This logical progression of release dates are smart business and the release of the movies has in my belief taken away the reins from JK, she now needs to work to this deadline or WB wont be able to release movies. In any case we have a good 6 years to go until the series in its entirety is over. this timeline also leaves JK with three years to each book. keeping in mind it took her around this time for order of phoenix. Also may it be pointed out that WB stoped the production of the films so the child stars could take a break, or did they stop because they were not allowed to conflict with JK's release? Thankyou for taking the time to sort through this line of logic. >From The Key of Kenney who thinks that even though he is dead, the memory of the character is going to appear in both sequels. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 6 07:01:46 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 07:01:46 -0000 Subject: The Order ...moving Headquarters, & Black Estate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97768 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kitkateseven" wrote: > > Lady Kate: > > > > I have also wondered that with Sirius dead, who would inherit Grimmauld Place? > > Would it be Narcissa, and thus by marriage Lucius Malfoy? That could have some > > interesting implications back at Hogwarts. > > kitkateseven: > > I'd always just kind of assumed that Harry, as Sirius' godson and > definitely the person who Sirius favors more than anyone in his own > biological family, would inherit everything--including Grimmauld > Place. > > Of course, that alone might make the house suspect. > > Also, would Sirius have put Harry in his will before his arrest? If > not, can wizards make changes to legal documents from Azkaban? > > --Kate bboy_mn: I posted some links today to the previous Inheritance discussions- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/97750 ...scroll to the middle of that post. First, if there is no clear Will, then Harry inherits nothing; it all goes to Sirius's aunts and uncles, cousins, and/or nephew/nieces. I want Harry, or someone very close to him, to inherit the Black Estate, but that won't happen without a Will from Sirius. I think Sirius was too young to think about a Will before he went to prison, and most likely, before he went to prison, he had living family. In prison, I don't think he had the willpower or inclination to do much of anything about anything, so I don't think a Will would appear from that period of time. But, all those long lonely hours at 12 Grimmauld Place with nothing to do but think and worry, to especially worry about Harry. I suspect he may have written a will at that time. He would certainly know how much danger the new war would bring, and there was a likelihood that he might die in that war, and he was certainly well aware the he was the last of the direct line of Blacks. Therefore, in late lonely ruminations, he would have written a Will naming predominantly Harry as the beneficiary. Most likely he would have had someone in the Order witness (by signature) the Will thereby authenticating it. I think that is the best scenerio, but it doesn't solve everything. First, no one needs to do anything until it is established that Sirius is dead. As long as he lives or appears to live, he controls the house, and therefore, to most people, it would be assumed that the house was sitting empty and unused. That means the Order can continue to use it. The Order's headquarter while the Ministry opposes them must remain a secret, but now that the Ministry has admitted that Voldemort is back and a new war is on, I say, the headquarters only needs to be secure and not well known; but not necessarily an absolute secret. That takes care of the Order's headquarters, but doesn't resolve Sirius's or the Black family estates. That can't happen until Sirius is proven innocent. As long as he is an escaped convict, his Will carries little weight and the people who witnessed it with a signature can't admit they have been consorting with a criminal. So, once the Order is ready to resolve the Estate, the first step is to prove Sirius innocent. The second step, is to get Sirius's Will accepted as valid. That could be a problem because the greedy Malfoy's will surely contest it. That provides a nice point of conflict and hostility between Harry and Draco. Then finally, once Sirius is innocent and his Will is valid, the dispensation of Sirius and the Black family assets can begin. Keep in mind that there are TWO separate (but related) estates; there is the Black Family Estate and Sirius Black's personal estate. They don't necessarily have to have the same resolution. I think the beginning of book Six is a little to soon to deal with the Estate, but closer to then end of the book, it may begin, and will then be resolved in book Seven. Just a few thoughts bboy_mn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 07:10:18 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 07:10:18 -0000 Subject: Snape's reporting methods (What DD says is more important.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97769 vmonte wrote: > > What I found interesting about this bit of info is what DD says, not > how Snape reports info. > It's almost as if DD is saying, "Yeah, thanks for telling me the > obvious, Snape." Maybe, Snape is giving DD useless information. I > also wonder why DD placed this insignificant memory in the penseive > to study. If the information Snape was giving him was useless, why > place it in the penseive? Is he studying the information, or Snape? > Carol: DD's response bothered me, too, because it seems to be putting Snape (or his information) down--treating it as unimportant--yet as you say, it seems odd that he would put it in the Pensieve if that were the case. I think, first, that the information about the Dark Mark becoming more distinct *was* important. It was only the the *connection* between Snape's mark and Karkaroff's that DD could have made "without assistance." Also, IMO DD is putting all the people who are important in the GoF debacle--Harry himself, all the possible suspects (except Madame Maxime) who might have put Harry's name in the goblet, and anyone else who might be connected with those people (including Snape) into the Pensieve to find connections--Karkaroff and Snape, Karkaroff and Moody, Karkaroff and Crouch, Crouch and Moody, and so on--trying to fit the pieces together, to solve the mystery that began with the Dark Mark and Winky by examining his memories of all those people, recent and not so recent. And Snape's report *is* important because it shows that LV is getting stronger and Karkaroff is getting nervous--ready to "flee," as Snape puts it--and therefore is *not* a likely person to have put Harry's name in the goblet. So Snape's report is in the Pensieve with good reason--but not a reason that DD is likely to tell Harry. And the fact that the Dark Mark becoming more vivid shows up when Snape, with remarkable courage, forces Fudge to look at it at the end of Gof. Insignificant information? I really don't think so. Carol, who believes Dumbledore's repeated assertions that he trusts Snape and thinks that Snape would not have revealed the information about the mark becoming darker if he could not be trusted From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Thu May 6 07:53:33 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 07:53:33 -0000 Subject: Author's Prison traps release dates of books six and seven. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97770 I disagree with this logic because it leaves out the fact that JKR had children in between books 4 and five. She wrote 4 bouks in almost 4 years, before she took a break, between books 4 and 5 and i think she will continue the trend of writing alot in a little amount of time for the next book too. They will come out alot sooner then we think. John who hopes 2005 is the release date of book six From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 6 09:40:23 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 09:40:23 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97771 [oops - snipped a bit too enthousiastically here - the context is that of Slytherin students forming a fresh band of DE's] Potioncat: << And I wonder how that will affect the teachers, particularly Snape? >> > snip < Sigune here: Of course I have no canon to support this assumption (as yet?), but I thought that one of Dumbledore's reasons for hiring Snape, and more importantly, making him Head of House, might be to prevent Slytherins from going over to Voldemort. I have to confess that at this moment I don't really see how Snape should have worked on this, but we don't get much of an insight into the internal affairs of Slytherin House in the books, do we? In any case it has always struck me that the Slytherins are a kind of outcasts at Hogwarts, despite the fact that they are purebloods. I don't know very well how to formulate this... I mean, Slytherin is, academically speaking, a 'good' house, is it not? It is successful as a unit. And then there is the fact that it is mostly composed of the offspring of wizards who rank rather highly in the WW. Yet it has a bad reputation and the other houses band together against it. Just imagine being sorted into Slytherin. It means you are automatically branded 'other' - "There wasn't a wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin", that sort of thing, and it is not even true. A student sorted into Slytherin would have no other choice than to band together with the likes of Draco Malfoy (yuck!) because there do not seem many other options. I don't know of any canon evidence that shows Slytherins mixing with people from other houses (but PLEASE correct me if I overlooked stuff). Is this because of a reluctance of the part of the Slytherins, or on the part of the others? (Probably both.) What I want to get to is - apart from Draco Malfoy, who clearly thinks he is better than anyone else, I think a number of Slytherins might actually feel inferior in a way. Or their pretended superiority might be a reaction against their forced seclusion as a group. I don't think it simply means they are evil and will go over to Voldy. Snape has done a great job of boosting the Slytherins' self-esteem, seeing that under his guidance they won both the House and Quidditch Cup seven years in a row prior to Harry's arrival. It seems to me that IF anyone has influence over the Slytherins, it would be Snape, and I can't imagine he would let his students join the Death Eaters if he can prevent it. Draco Malfoy is only one student out of a whole house; I don't know if we can take him to represent the whole of it. So, I guess I am suggesting that I don't think Snape will find himself in a situation where he has to really *fight* his own students, though he may have to use his persuasive skills (wonder what *they* are, LOL) at some point. Hm. Does this sound very confused? If so, I apologise :). Yours severely, Sigune From mousepad at insightbb.com Thu May 6 06:03:30 2004 From: mousepad at insightbb.com (Mousepad) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 01:03:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: But Why does it Have to be Lupin? (was:Kreacher, Buckbeak ...) References: Message-ID: <004d01c4332f$db74c940$6901a8c0@brmkam> No: HPFGUIDX 97772 >Erin challenged Pippin: >Really? And you think Kreacher would have taken orders from- or even >acknowledged the presence of- Lupin? Lupin the half-blood? Lupin >the werewolf? Lady Kate: I was always under the impression that the house elf was only under obligation to take orders from the master of the house, and more over was bound to not take orders from any one else. Take Dobby for example. Harry told him to stop punishing himself several times, and Dobby still felt he had an obligation to punish himself. Also, the house elves seemed bound to not reveal their masters secrets. Winky was sickeningly loyal to Crouch after she was sacked, and Dobby, even years later would not reveal the Malfoy's secrets. I think that even if there is a spy at Grimmauld place, they could not work effectively through/with Kreacher becausing of the bound nature of the house elf. Now with Sirius dead though...hmmm... Lady Kate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 6 10:29:59 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 10:29:59 -0000 Subject: James or Lilly killed first? In-Reply-To: <20040506003447.52037.qmail@web60105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97773 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: Owlery2003: > I'm sure this has been covered, but please refresh my recollection. I thought that James was killed by LV first, then Voldie went to AK Harry, but Lilly got in the way and then he killed her. Geoff: This has been corrected and has been acknowledged as a Flint I believe. Owlery2003: But in GOF, James comes out of LV's wand first, then Lilly. What's up with that? Geoff: When I went to look this up to answer your question, I realised for the first time that I have both versions. My hardback has the original version which reads as follows: 'The smoky shadow of a tall man with untidy hair fell to the ground as Bertha had done, straightened up and looked at him.... and Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his father. "Your mother's coming," he said quietly.... "She wants to see you... it will be all right.... hold on..."' (GOF "Priori Incantatem" p.579 UK edition) My paperback version, on the same page has: 'The smoky shadow of a young woman with long hair fell to the ground as Bertha had done, straightened up and looked at him.... and Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother. "Your father's coming," she said quietly.... "He wants to see you... it will be all right.... hold on..."' Curiously, I must have bought an older copy of the hardback because I bought the paperback (altered version) in November 2002 and the hardback (originl version) in October 2003 when I bought the hardbacks to match my OOTP on the bookshelf. From BrwNeil at aol.com Thu May 6 10:37:52 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 06:37:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 6 coming soon? Message-ID: <19d.240f3d87.2dcb6f80@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97774 In a message dated 5/6/2004 1:04:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com writes: I'm still crossing my fingers for a Fall 2004 publication, but the odds seem better for Spring 2005, in time for the summer reading season. That's leave the next fall clear for the GoF film. Although I hope for this fall, the money trail would indicate next spring or summer as to not conflict with any other HP media. We have PoA this summer, followed by its DVD probably in time for Christmas. GoF is due out November of 2005. That leaves spring and summer of 2005 with nothng happening. Its all about money and not conflicting with your own product to get the biggest share of the market possible. Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Thu May 6 11:52:26 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 11:52:26 -0000 Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: <48.2b61ce6f.2dcb0442@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97775 Sherrie: "Not only would a Sirius still legally "alive" moot the question of inheritance of #12, leaving the Order free to maintain it as their Super Secret HQ, but the continued search for him ("Sirius Black Spotted in Tajikistan! Details at eleven!") would serve as a distraction for Fudge ? giving Dumbly a freer hand to run the war as he sees fit. And with the Auror in charge of the search a member of the Order, should be a fairly easy thing to keep up the deception for a year or so..." It seems to me that one of JKR's few weaknesses must be an abysmal ignorance of "tradecraft," or the art of espionage and clandestine operations. She really needs to read some John Le Carre or /The Cardinal of the Kremlin/ or something. In that world, Grimmauld Place is completely "blown," and of no use whatsoever as a safe house. Kreacher can't betray its location because of Fidelius, but consider: here comes the house elf bound to Grimmauld Place ratting out Sirius, the same Sirius that later becomes the object of Voldemort's plot to lure Harry out of Hogwarts and the same Sirius that showed up at the MoM /with/ the rest of the Order. Does Fidelius prevent Voldemort, Narcissa, or Bellatrix from adding two and two? It's not an ultimate stupidity charm, is it? Of course, it's an open question if the DE's know of the existence of the "Order of the Phoenix," but I have a hard time thinking that someone in the DE's wouldn't say "I think we'd better check out the house Kreacher comes from. We'll destroy it and kill everyone inside just to be safe." The need for secrecy for the Order is mostly over now, anyway. Fudge's obstruction doesn't matter anymore and everyone now knows who the enemy really is. The Order's headquarters can be Hogwarts now without much need for deception. They should be at Hogwarts now, for their single most important mission now is the protection of Harry Potter. The identities of the members should be kept as quiet as possible to protect them and their families, although some will be inevitably outed and must go underground. Jim Ferer From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu May 6 12:24:18 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 12:24:18 -0000 Subject: Book 6 coming soon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97776 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > > > SCOOP: Inside word on the next HARRY POTTER book? > > > Could Harry's next book be out by the end of September? > > > Dateline: Wednesday, May 5, 2004 > > > By: PATRICK SAURIOL > > > > According to the scooper, a notice was sent to all book > > publishers that print J.K. Rowling's HARRY POTTER novels stating > > that "they needed to be prepared to print copies of the next HP book > > by no later than September 8, 2004." I remember a previous rumor to that effect when we were awaiting OOP, and it turned out to be the publication of the paperbacke edition of GoF - perhaps Sept. 8 is when OOP will be released in soft cover? - CMC From rredordead at aol.com Thu May 6 12:25:35 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 12:25:35 -0000 Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97777 Sherrie wrote: > leaving the Order free to maintain it >as their Super Secret HQ, should be a fairly easy thing to keep >up the deception for a year or so..." > Jim Ferer wrote: > Grimmauld Place is completely "blown," and of no use > whatsoever as a safe house. Kreacher can't betray its location > because of Fidelius, but consider: here comes the house elf bound to > Grimmauld Place ratting out Sirius, the same Sirius that later becomes > the object of Voldemort's plot to lure Harry out of Hogwarts and the > same Sirius that showed up at the MoM /with/ the rest of the Order. Mandy here: Yes and no. The location of Grimmauld place is blown, but the house itself is not. In other words, the DE could go to Grimmauld Place and stand outside Number 12 and unless they have the Secret password, they will not be able to see the house, numbers 10 and 14 would appear next to each other. So the Order could still technically use the house, but I agree with Jim in that they would be stupid to do so. There is nothing to stop the DE's from staking out the `invisible' house, front and back, watching those who appear and disappear inside. Then there is nothing to stop the DE's ambushing the Order members as they leave. Grimmauld Place is no longer a Safe House. Jim wrote: > Of course, it's an open question if the DE's know of the existence of the "Order > of the Phoenix," but I have a hard time thinking that someone in the > DE's wouldn't say "I think we'd better check out the house Kreacher > comes from. We'll destroy it and kill everyone inside just to be safe." Mandy again: LV knows of the Orders existence and though him his DE, or at least those DEs LV wants to know, know. LV knew every active member of the Order during the first war, as Mad Eye tells us that the members were being picked off one by one. It stands to reason that LV is aware of whom, out of the original Order are still alive, from Peter and/or Lucius and other informants. LV may not know who the new members are, yet, but I doubt it will take him long to find out. He will know through Bellatrix who was fighting for DD at the MoM battle, so Tonks, Shackelbolt, and Lupin along with DD and Harry are currently one the top of LV's Order Members That Must Die List. I don't believe anyone can destroy a house that is under the Fedealius Charm unless they have the Secret from the secret keeper. So, hypothetically, Harry could destroy Grimmauld Place but LV couldn't. Jim wrote: > The need for secrecy for the Order is mostly over now, anyway. Fudge's > obstruction doesn't matter anymore and everyone now knows who the > enemy really is. The Order's headquarters can be Hogwarts now without > much need for deception. They should be at Hogwarts now, for their single most important mission now is the protection of Harry Potter. > The identities of the members should be kept as quiet as possible to > protect them and their families, although some will be inevitably > outed and must go underground. Mandy here: Agree with this one. Cheers Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Thu May 6 12:26:46 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 12:26:46 -0000 Subject: Book 6 coming soon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" > wrote: > > > > > SCOOP: Inside word on the next HARRY POTTER book? > > > > Could Harry's next book be out by the end of September? > > > > Dateline: Wednesday, May 5, 2004 > > > > By: PATRICK SAURIOL > > > > > > According to the scooper, a notice was sent to all book > > > publishers that print J.K. Rowling's HARRY POTTER novels stating > > > that "they needed to be prepared to print copies of the next HP > book > > > by no later than September 8, 2004." > > I remember a previous rumor to that effect when we were awaiting OOP, > and it turned out to be the publication of the paperbacke edition of > GoF - perhaps Sept. 8 is when OOP will be released in soft cover? > > - CMC From rredordead at aol.com Thu May 6 12:38:50 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 12:38:50 -0000 Subject: Book 6 coming soon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97779 >CMC wrote: > I remember a previous rumor to that effect when we were awaiting >OOP, and it turned out to be the publication of the paperbacke >edition of GoF - perhaps Sept. 8 is when OOP will be released in >soft cover? Mandy Here: Sorry for the previous empty post. OotP will not be out in paperback right before the publication of Book 6. That is common practice with publishers in the US. Remember GoF was in hardcover for 3 years, until just before OotP came out last June. In the UK it is normal for a book to come out in paperback one year after the hardcover. So OotP will be out in paperback in the UK this summer. As the printing run of JKR books are so huge, it is normal that publishers and printers will get plenty of advance notice before the book is even ready. The publishing schedules of all other books have to be rearranges around the publication of the Potter books because they are so huge. (The publications run I mean, not the actual size of the book.) I believe printers had to put all their other jobs on hold just to print enough copies of OotP. JKR is still breaking records. September does seem soon, but it is not outside the bound of realism for a book that could be available to us in the summer of 2005. Fingers crossed. But this is sooooo off topic. Mandy From squeakinby at tds.net Thu May 6 13:47:55 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 08:47:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 6 coming soon? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <409A420B.7010006@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97780 Mandy wrote: Even further to the side of the topic > As the printing run of JKR books are so huge, it is normal that > publishers and printers will get plenty of advance notice before the > book is even ready. Clinton's book is "scheduled" for late June, he hasn't finished it yet and they're set to print a million or so copies. Everyone imagines this will all come together. I only say this because I'd like to retain hope for Sept. '04 for Book 6. Think of the situation as a Gilderoy Lockhart book "Printing Millions of Books Fast--It's Magic!" Jem From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu May 6 13:04:33 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 13:04:33 -0000 Subject: Snape's reporting methods (What DD says is more important.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97781 Carol wrote: Also, IMO DD is putting all the people who are important in the GoF debacle--Harry himself, all the possible suspects (except Madame Maxime) who might have put Harry's name in the goblet, and anyone else who might be connected with those people (including Snape) into the Pensieve to find connections--Karkaroff and Snape, Karkaroff and Moody, Karkaroff and Crouch, Crouch and Moody, and so on--trying to fit the pieces together, to solve the mystery that began with the Dark Mark and Winky by examining his memories of all those people, recent and not so recent. vmonte responds: Thanks for responding, Carol. You've really cleared that up for me. It did not occur to me that the penseive was actually piecing memories together and making the connections for DD. I thought that it only allowed you to review your memories, but that you then had to make those connections yourself. vmonte From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu May 6 13:18:53 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 13:18:53 -0000 Subject: DD=Harry?! In-Reply-To: <003801c43323$ce787810$6401a8c0@helenw1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97783 >From Helen (LizardLaugh): http://www.knight2king.net :) Enjoy! The clues fit Ron=DD more than they fit Harry=DD. In fact, if Dumbledore is someone other than Dumbledore, my money is on another Weasley. vmonte responds: Great website, Helen. By the way, who is the other Weasley you are talking about? Many people are saying that it's either Fred or George, but if it's not Ron, could it be Percy? What if Percy is trying to make amends for his misguided behavior as a youth? Just a thought. The personality doesn't really fit though, does it? DD is definitely not like Percy; especially since he has a sense of humor. I'm still trying to figure out the person Harry thought looked familiar in the HH bar? And who Aberforth is? vmonte From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 6 13:24:40 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 13:24:40 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97784 Sigune here: > Of course I have no canon to support this assumption (as yet?), but > I thought that one of Dumbledore's reasons for hiring Snape, and > more importantly, making him Head of House, might be to prevent > Slytherins from going over to Voldemort. > In any case it has always struck me that the Slytherins are a kind > of outcasts at Hogwarts, despite the fact that they are purebloods. Just imagine being sorted into Slytherin. It means you are > automatically branded 'other' A student sorted into Slytherin would > have no other choice than to band together with the likes of Draco > Malfoy (yuck!) because there do not seem many other options. > What I want to get to is - apart from Draco Malfoy, who > clearly thinks he is better than anyone else, I think a number of > Slytherins might actually feel inferior in a way. Or their > pretended superiority might be a reaction against their forced > seclusion as a group. I don't think it simply means they are evil > and will go over to Voldy. > Snape has done a great job of boosting the Slytherins' self-esteem, > seeing that under his guidance they won both the House and > Quidditch Cup seven years in a row prior to Harry's arrival. Siriusly Snapey Susan: I'm not sure I quite know how Snape would prevent Slytherins from joining Voldy as new DEs without blowing his cover w/ Voldy [assuming that cover is still intact]. I'd love for someone who thinks this will happen to flesh it out because I just can't imagine it right now. What I *do* think you're onto something about is the idea that Draco may be in a minority of Slytherins who truly thinks he/they are better than the rest; that, in fact, being branded as "other" and looked down upon by the other three houses may make some of the Slyths actually feel inferior. Interesting point, Sigune, about how Snape has likely helped the students with that, in terms of Quidditch & House Cups. Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 6 13:32:02 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 13:32:02 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97785 > > Potioncat: > << And I wonder how that will affect the teachers, particularly > Snape? >> > > snip < > > Sigune here: > Of course I have no canon to support this assumption (as yet?), but I > thought that one of Dumbledore's reasons for hiring Snape, and more > importantly, making him Head of House, might be to prevent Slytherins > from going over to Voldemort. >>snipping a very good post<<< Potioncat: Boy, Snape has a big job, and raising twins too! (:-) It will be interesting to see how this plays out. If he spends as much time with his Slytherins as McGonagall does with her Gryffindors, then I doubt he's made much of an impact. Particularly since he behaves (at least around the trio) as if he supports pureblood ideology. It would be very hard to guide one group toward the DD camp while appearing to another group to support the other side. But I wonder what affect his distance from Umbridge had on his "bad" Slytherins. I'm not arguing against your post, it's the way I'd like to see it turn out too. I also liked your description of the Slytherin mind set. For a different view check out this site, I stumbled upon it not too long ago. http://www.jareth.com/slytherin.html Potioncat From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu May 6 13:32:01 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 13:32:01 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97786 Sigune wrote: What I want to get to is - apart from Draco Malfoy, who clearly thinks he is better than anyone else, I think a number of Slytherins might actually feel inferior in a way. Or their pretended superiority might be a reaction against their forced seclusion as a group. I don't think it simply means they are evil and will go over to Voldy. Snape has done a great job of boosting the Slytherins' self-esteem, seeing that under his guidance they won both the House and Quidditch Cup seven years in a row prior to Harry's arrival. It seems to me that IF anyone has influence over the Slytherins, it would be Snape, and I can't imagine he would let his students join the Death Eaters if he can prevent it. Draco Malfoy is only one student out of a whole house; I don't know if we can take him to represent the whole of it. So, I guess I am suggesting that I don't think Snape will find himself in a situation where he has to really *fight* his own students, though he may have to use his persuasive skills (wonder what *they* are, LOL) at some point. vmonte responds: You've made some very good points! Your right that the rest of the school hates Slytherin (it makes sense that the Slytherin kids might feel like outcasts); and I believe that, like many other posters believe, there has to be Slytherin students who do not approve of Voldemort. vmonte From entropymail at yahoo.com Thu May 6 14:21:16 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 14:21:16 -0000 Subject: Book 6 coming soon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > >CMC wrote: > > I remember a previous rumor to that effect when we were awaiting > >OOP, and it turned out to be the publication of the paperbacke > >edition of GoF - perhaps Sept. 8 is when OOP will be released in > >soft cover? I remember that Amazon.com sent out a massive emailing regarding advance purchase of OOP many months before it came out. Seeing as it's already May, and we haven't heard anything from them, I doubt that Book 6 will arrive anytime soon. But I'll cross my fingers all the same! :: Entropy :: From entropymail at yahoo.com Thu May 6 14:30:51 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 14:30:51 -0000 Subject: Book 6 coming soon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > > I remember that Amazon.com sent out a massive emailing regarding > advance purchase of OOP many months before it came out. Seeing as > it's already May, and we haven't heard anything from them, I doubt > that Book 6 will arrive anytime soon. But I'll cross my fingers all > the same! > > :: Entropy :: Aack! Uncross your fingers, folks. The rumour has been vehemently denied. :( http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_3689000/3689991.stm From jferer at yahoo.com Thu May 6 14:36:57 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 14:36:57 -0000 Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97789 Jim Ferer wrote: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97791 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" wrote: >> Mandy: Why would Voldemort solely choose Slytherin anyhow? That would limit his options as different types of people think in different ways and thus would prove useful resources. >> > Nora: To make an argument I'm working on in more detail short (it'll be posted when papers/finals/master classes are over), because Slytherins *in general* have the most to gain from following Voldemort. While blood is not the sole defining characteristic of Slytherin House, we're not sure whether half- blood Tom Riddle is an exception or more widely permitted, but we know that Slytherin won't take Muggleborns. My hypothesis? This kind of exclusion has put a profound damper on any potential corrections or re-engagements provided by an influx of people with new ideas, meaning that Slytherin House has a tendency to a certain cultural homogeneity... And cultural homogeneity is something that Voldemort wants. Getting rid of Muggleborns and half-bloods, putting the purebloods in power...this is the agenda that a lot of people in the WW *agreed* with, before Voldemort started killing people and showed how ruthless he is. > Kneasy: It's interesting how perceptions can differ. To a degree I would concur with what can be extrapolated from Nora's post; it's not that Voldemort chooses Slytherins, it's that (in general) Slytherins choose Voldemort. Slytherins can be presented as, or believe themselves to be, a beleaguered minority desperate to maintain traditional standards in the face of an ever-encroaching tide of change. The fact that this same tide has been lapping at their doorsteps since the time of Salazar without their world falling apart is largely irrelevant to them. Society in the WW is self-evidently going to the dogs and this trend must be halted and if possible reversed. All that is required is a sufficiently powerful figure that can condense these inchoate fears into words *and* actions. Mrs Black is an archetype; she was undoubtedly voicing the same opinions long before Voldemort appeared on the scene. To repeat a thought used in a previous post: "I look on him not as the cause but the catalyst. Attitudes that have caused friction for years suddenly have a focus; rather like a speck of dust falling into a super-saturated solution, crystalisation occurs. People take sides, not because of right or wrong, but because of what they already are. Their roles were cast long before Voldy appeared." Very few demagogues can whip up a social, cultural or ideological paranoia that doesn't already exist in the community in some form or another, be it ever so unconscious or subliminal. They invariably take advantage of what already exists. This raises an interesting thought; the defeat of Voldy will not fundamentally change the attitudes of his followers. They may keep a lower profile if he's defeated, but they are unlikely to alter their mind-set. The best you can expect is lip-service to the new orthodoxy - until another Voldy appears. All you need is love? I don't think so. I'm not sure if I'll go along with Nora's assumption that somehow Slytherin House decides who is and isn't suitable for placement in the House. 'Slytherin' is little more than a label and labels don't choose; others decide if the label is appropriate, in this case the Sorting Hat. The cultural homogeneity in Slytherin exists because it's members were selected on the basis of "birds of a feather flock together." The Hat whitters on about Houses must combine, yet it is the Hat's choices that reinforce the divisions no matter that it wishes to do otherwise. We know of one Muggle-born considered as prime Slytherin material - Harry. OK, he's maybe a special case and it was probably a plot device anyway, but the Hat never bothered with his antecedents, only his mind. Indeed, the Hat's song in GoF ends: "I've never yet been wrong I'll have a look inside your mind And tell where you belong!" Slytherin himself may have wanted to bar the door to all but purebloods, but the Hat never mentions it among it's criteria for admission to his House; cunning and ambition seem to be the attributes that matter. This was key even in the old days: "For instance, Slytherin Took only pure-blood wizards Of great cunning, just like him," (OoP Sorting Hat song) A student may have been pureblood but still not acceptable to Slytherin. The Weasleys, for instance. Given that we have been told how unlikely the concept of 'pureblood' (in it's literal meaning) is, it's difficult to conceive how Slytherin House could continue if varying dilutions of wizarding blood were not admitted. The pretensions of the Malfoys et al to pureblood status are a conceit that is incongruent with reality. No claim to that condition would stand close examination if what we are told is true. To accept Tom as a member of Slytherin posits that either standards must have slipped a bit since old Sally's day or a different standard prevails. I go for the latter. > Nora: Who has the most to gain from this? The pureblooded. The rich and pureblooded (Malfoys, Blacks) preserve their status which is challenged by a meritocratic system and an influx of outsiders, the less well-off but still pureblooded (Snape? perhaps--explains some things) get a gain in status. > Kneasy: Status or power? Or status based on power? Or meaningless power based on a status that is meaningless in the eyes of others? Status based on power is the only one that works. Power is what matters to those who are cunning and ambitious - it is the glittering prize. If you have enough power your antecedents become irrelevant; it's what you've become rather than where you've come from that cuts the mustard. In this respect Voldy is a meritocrat - the one with the power and the talent ends up on top and he's applying for the post. > Nora: Of course there are other factors at work (I'm itching to know Peter's story), but given some aspects of Voldemort's GoF speech and Bellatrix's utter freak-out at being told the truth about Voldemort's parentage (note how she also immediately tags Harry as a half-blood), I think that the blood ideology is not merely a mask for an unadulterated power grab, but something significant. Voldemort has gotten to the point where he really believes his own propaganda... > Kneasy: "And power-hungry Slytherin Loved those of great ambition." (GoF again). Bellatrix may just be a chip off the Mrs Black block. Power is seductively attractive but it may be uncomfortable to be reminded that the beliefs of a lifetime have been compromised in the attempt to get close to it. Go back fifty years or so and offer Tom the power to become top dog. He'll bite your hand off and accept without qualms any minor irrelevancies, such as the deaths and sacrifices of others, as part of the package. Perfectly justified - in his eyes. Voldy can be considered as a supremely ambitious individual with Salazar's ethics grafted on as an after-thought. Tom sees Salazar's beliefs as the means to his ends and Salazar would see Tom as the means to his ends. A perfect partnership. If Voldy wins they would both get what they want - Tom gets to run the WW, Salazar finally gets a pureblood supremacy running the WW. Well, I would think that, wouldn't I? It's key to my possession theory. Kneasy From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 6 16:59:45 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 16:59:45 -0000 Subject: Inaugural address and Mandy Croyance on Assumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97792 Mandy Croyance: >>Out side of the box is where we need to roam. If Hagrid was wrong about `all dark wizards' then perhaps he was wrong about something else. Dumbledore's own judgment was called into question andgenerally proven faulty in the fifth book. We can no longer assume that because Harry Potter agrees with something we should nor can we afford to buy into an ideology just because it is supported by theprotagonists. Who knows? Maybe we really are rooting for the wrong side.<< Depends what you mean by "side". Will friendship and bravery triumph over treachery and cowardice? Almost certainly. But the true and the brave may be found in other Houses as well as Gryffindor (Cedric, Luna, Snape), while some Gryffindors may find their youthful aspirations slipping perilously beyond their grasp (Peter and ??). Pippin From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Thu May 6 17:15:47 2004 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 17:15:47 -0000 Subject: portrait in GH -Nature of Movement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97793 > Neri: > If we go back to the idea that started this discussion: a portrait in > GH reporting to DD what happened in that fateful night, well, if I > was Voldy the first thing I would have done when entering the > Potters' house is blasting any portrait out of the wall. Unless it is > not common knowledge that they can run and bring DD. > > Neri Rosebeth: Even if it is common knowledge, it would only take a moment for the person in the portrait to recognize that LV had just walked in the door. The person in the portrait could have easily disappeared while LV was distracted by James. Also how long does it take the people in the portraits to move in between them. From what I recall it was just moments. So even if LV did distroy the canvas in GH the person could have long been at Hogwarts by then. Finally, there has been some discussion as to who was in the portrait. I have no idea other than this. We have pretty good knowledge that the Potters are pureblood family, as such they probably go way back. There is also the idea that James and Harry are decendents from Godric Gryffindor himself. Given this, I think it's very easy to believe that at some point in the 1000 year Hogwarts history one of the Headmasters was a Potter. bboy, has proposed that whoever hung in the portrait in GH could also have a corresponding portait somewhere in Hogwarts and didn't necessarily need to be a Headmaster/mistress. I disagree. If you're putting a portrait in GH to watch over the Potters you want the information that person is going to relay as quickly as possible. If the person has to run through half the portraits in the castle it's simply not the most efficent use of time. Rosebeth From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Thu May 6 17:16:27 2004 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 17:16:27 -0000 Subject: portrait in GH -Nature of Movement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97794 > Neri: > If we go back to the idea that started this discussion: a portrait in > GH reporting to DD what happened in that fateful night, well, if I > was Voldy the first thing I would have done when entering the > Potters' house is blasting any portrait out of the wall. Unless it is > not common knowledge that they can run and bring DD. > > Neri Rosebeth: Even if it is common knowledge, it would only take a moment for the person in the portrait to recognize that LV had just walked in the door. The person in the portrait could have easily disappeared while LV was distracted by James. Also how long does it take the people in the portraits to move in between them. From what I recall it was just moments. So even if LV did distroy the canvas in GH the person could have long been at Hogwarts by then. Finally, there has been some discussion as to who was in the portrait. I have no idea other than this. We have pretty good knowledge that the Potters are pureblood family, as such they probably go way back. There is also the idea that James and Harry are decendents from Godric Gryffindor himself. Given this, I think it's very easy to believe that at some point in the 1000 year Hogwarts history one of the Headmasters was a Potter. bboy, has proposed that whoever hung in the portrait in GH could also have a corresponding portait somewhere in Hogwarts and didn't necessarily need to be a Headmaster/mistress. I disagree. If you're putting a portrait in GH to watch over the Potters you want the information that person is going to relay as quickly as possible. If the person has to run through half the portraits in the castle it's simply not the most efficent use of time. Rosebeth From mariaalena at purdue.edu Thu May 6 17:22:50 2004 From: mariaalena at purdue.edu (Maria) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 17:22:50 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Book 6 Rumours Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97795 Greetings from Hexquarters! Just a quick reminder that off-topic posts (entertaining as they are!) are not permitted on this list. We require that posts to the main list make a canon point and discuss the words or works of JKR. We would like the discussion of Book 6 rumors and all other off-topic discussion to move to the HPFGU-OTChatter list. OTChatter is a fun and friendly place where people enjoy talking about all sorts of things, and it can be found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter Predictions about what will happen in future books is perfectly all right here, of course. ;-) For further information, check out our posting guidelines at www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin/ Thanks! Manya Elf for the List Admin Team From jasonlava at yahoo.com Thu May 6 01:32:55 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 01:32:55 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97796 Something gives me a feeling that the end or most of book 7 is gonna be one big "train wreck". We might find out just how much the Ministry was in cahoots with LV and will DD overturn the MoM. Some people say it's gonna end bad. Harry or LV dies. Hogwarts is destroyed. I'm pretty sure it will be something like Harry is about to die, there's no hope and suddenly something (Fawkes?) steps in and does something to help Harry tremendously. Remeber Fawkes helped Harry in CoS and Harry heard the song of a Phoenix as he battled against LV in GoF. So, I'm sure book 6 will get us more set up for when the poop hits the fan in Book 7. If it's coming out in September than WOOHOO! I can't wait. Jason From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu May 6 18:30:15 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 18:30:15 -0000 Subject: FILK You Can Keep Your Wand Out Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97797 You Can Keep Your Wand Out (Based upon "You Can Leave Your Hat On," by Randy Newman, covered by Joe Cocker and others) (sung by Arabella Figg) MIDI at: http://www.jadierose.com/haton.mid Dudley, pick yourself up...(right now) Get up off of the ground...(now, you useless lump) Harry, you pull him up, quick, quick, quick You can keep your wand out You can keep your wand out Better keep your wand out They could be back any time...Dementors, boy This is just what Dumbledore feared oy-veh! Come now, Harry, no time to wait keep up! I could kill Mundungus I could kill Mundungus I could kill Mundungus Oh I could kill Mundungus! I'm going straight back home now You stay in your aunt's house don't move Must wait for more instructions There'll be hell to pay now There'll be hell to pay now There'll be hell to pay now You can keep your wand out You can keep your wand out Better keep your wand out From JPWilko at jwilkinson18.freeserve.co.uk Thu May 6 03:06:29 2004 From: JPWilko at jwilkinson18.freeserve.co.uk (John) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 04:06:29 +0100 Subject: OWL EXAM CACULATIONS References: Message-ID: <003c01c43317$4cd490c0$066509d4@John> No: HPFGUIDX 97798 bboy_mn wrote: First let's put the wizards grades into a format that most U.S. citizens are familiar with A = O = Outstanding B = E = Exceeds Expectations C = A = Acceptable D = P = Poor F = T = Troll or Terrible In my day (he said croakily) we didn't use a curve, grades were stickly by percentage and with little mercy. To the best of my recollection- A = 100% to 94% (pass) B = 93% to 87% (pass) C = 86% to 80% (pass) D = 79% to 75% (just barely pass) F = below 75% (fail) Very few kids today could wtihstand a grading system like that. John: I agree about the percentage. However, I feel the pass rates are not as steep as said. When I sat GCSEs at 16 (4 years ago) I was told while doing mock papers, "You need at least 50 % to pass with a C grade." The percentage system below is what I use now at university and seems to fit what I was told in school. A = 70 % to 100 % B = 60 % to 69 % C = 50 % to 59 % D = 40 % to 49 % Just for the record, I passed every GSCE I took. This included French, when considering the amount of effort I put in, was quite an accomplishment. Most people, in my experience, who sat exams at sixteen, usually pass at least with a low grade. This is good news I feel for our Hogwart friends. (This is coming from someone who in the next two weeks has to sit their second year university exams, but find this a lot more exciting than account procedure for foreign currencies.) John.. From arielock at aol.com Thu May 6 18:41:47 2004 From: arielock at aol.com (arielock at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:41:47 EDT Subject: The thing they would miss most. Message-ID: <8.4c62dba0.2dcbe0eb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97799 Del wrote: "As for Fleur and Gabrielle, I remember being flabbergasted when I read about them the first time... (Hermione and Cho)are just the most important persons *at Hogwarts* ! So why *ever* did the High Authorities go and kidnap Fleur's sister all the way in France (or wherever she lives, which is not Hogwarts) ? The only solution I see is that Gabrielle spent that year in Hogsmeade, and Fleur saw her often, and then Gabrielle was indeed the thing Fleur would miss most at Hogwarts. But there's no hint whatsoever that Fleur visits anyone in Hogsmeade." Arianna replies: In Fleur's case, it struck me as extremely significant that it was her sister (also part veela) who she would miss the most. She *does* have peers from her school (boys and girls) visiting at Hogwarts, too. Why weren't any of those people the person she would miss the most? Let's see: She is stunningly and preternaturally beautiful. She's not just pretty, she's part veela. Guys are magically drawn to her, *entranced* by her. But she has to have figured out that it has nothing to do with them genuinely caring about her as a person. Hence, a boyfriend was not who she would miss the most. For a relationship to be meaningful, there has to at least be the potential for an emotional connection. She may have loads of men who fancy her, but they appear to be so mesmerized by her beauty that they don't hear a word she is saying. Didn't Harry notice that during the Yule Ball? While the guys are fawning over her, they are ignoring every other girl in the room. She is a threat to her female peers whether she wants to be or not (see "Survival of the Prettiest" by Nancy Etcoff). She is also ostensibly the most magical/powerful/talented person in her school (as she was chosen by the Goblet to compete). I am assuming (no proof here) that she is a Seeker for what ever team her school/house/whatever has, as the other three champions are Seekers, too. If most of her female peers (high school aged, let's not forget) aren't painfully jealous of her (to the point of strongly disliking her), I'll eat the sorting hat. On top of all that, she complains *a lot*. She makes disparaging comments constantly, about Hogwarts, the food, the temperature, the decorations, Harry's age, etc. She probably behaves exactly the same way at her school. Even if she had a female peer who wasn't intimidated or threatened by her, her attitude alone is enough to alienate others. Even our beloved, rational, Hermione dislikes her almost immediately. The choice of her sister instead of a peer showed something rather poignant and sad: For all her beauty, talent and ability, she appears to have no friends. None. And she must be very lonely. Arianna From jferer at yahoo.com Thu May 6 19:13:31 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 19:13:31 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97800 Jason: "Something gives me a feeling that the end or most of book 7 is gonna be one big "train wreck". We might find out just how much the Ministry was in cahoots with LV and will DD overturn the MoM. Some people say it's gonna end bad. Harry or LV dies. Hogwarts is destroyed. "I'm pretty sure it will be something like Harry is about to die, there's no hope and suddenly something (Fawkes?) steps in and does something to help Harry tremendously. remember Fawkes helped Harry in CoS and Harry heard the song of a Phoenix as he battled against LV in GoF." Well, Book 7 is the climax, so the Ragnarok of the series will be then, but I'd guess the darkest hour is likely to be at the end of Book 6. Dumbledore is likely to be dead, along with who knows else, maybe with the Double Trio (H/H/R/G/N/L) [maybe we should call them "The Six Pack") and the Order on the run; Harry may be Fawkes's new master by then. I think themes and events are building towards an ending where Harry makes the hardest decision of his life and gives himself up in some form to defeat Voldemort once and for all. The vision I get is Harry somehow giving up his magical ability in order to take away Voldemort's ability; the ultimate destiny of their magical and blood links. Voldemort would immediately cease to exist ? he hasn't been naturally alive for many years. Harry would have made a sacrifice much bigger than even his life; he's giving up the thing that made his life livable, rescued him from the Dursleys, gave him status and meaning. I can't imagine a larger sacrifice. How to bear it? I think this ending would have a much more profound effect on the readers than merely Harry's death. Support for this? No proof, but also more than nothing: JKR has said in an interview something to the effect that there are Biblical parallels to her story and that those familiar will the Bible will figure out what's coming. (Somebody correct this, but I'm pretty sure the drift is correct.) The parallel isn't perfect, but the idea of self-sacrifice for others is right on. Dumbledore's "look of triumph" at the end of GoF and his seeming letdown afterwards. He may have recognized the potential effect of this blood link and then realized the consequences for Harry. My hypothesis is a possible explanation. This hypothesis is consistent with the Prophecy. I don't think there's any way to test this hypothesis until Book 6 at least, maybe no way at all, but I can't think of an objection to it now. Jim Ferer From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 6 19:16:00 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 19:16:00 -0000 Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > > It seems to me that one of JKR's few weaknesses must be an abysmal ignorance of "tradecraft," or the art of espionage and clandestineoperations. She really needs to read some John Le Carre or /The Cardinal of the Kremlin/ or something. > She may know more than you think: (Barnes and Noble chat transcript 1999) http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/099 9-barnesnoble-staff.htm *** The worst job I ever had was working as a temporary secretary in a company that made surveillance equipment. Bugs, infrared binoculars...industrial espionage. I spent the whole time reading the catalogue. They were very creepy people. The products were very interesting, but the people were quite horrible. *** I don't think GP shows poor tradecraft . Since the house was already concealed and protected before the Secret Keeper spell was placed on it, Narcissa and other old family friends would hardly expect to be able to enter or find it without an invitation from the householder. It would have been inaccessible since the death of Mrs. B. The Order members coming to Grimmauld Place were mostly in disguise. Even if Voldemort's agents had noticed them in the square outside GP, they wouldn't be able to tell whether they were vanishing into the house or somewhere else entirely. Does the Secret Keeper spell prevent one not initiated from even thinking of the secret? It certainly would increase its usefulness. In that case, tradecraft is far less necessary. All that said, I agree that Grimmauld Place has probably outlived its usefulness, for literary if not practical reasons. But as a Safe House, a place where people who are not supposed to be associated with the Order or each other can safely meet, Hogwarts would be just as bad as Grimmauld Place. I think we will find out instead where Dumbledore went in the interval that he was absent from Hogwarts in Book Five. I disagree that the Order's main task in Book Six will be to protect Harry. Harry is the person who *least* needs protection from Voldemort. The Order's task will be to expose Voldemort's agents and unite the wizarding world. Pippin From drdara at yahoo.com Thu May 6 19:18:54 2004 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 12:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OWL EXAM CACULATIONS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040506191854.75222.qmail@web60709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97802 My high school grading system for my honor classes were like that an A was 94-100%, for the rest of my classes and most of my college classes are 90-100% is an A. And I am 25 right now,well almost 25, 4 more months to go. And I just want to point out is that not enough people are reading emails and are saying the same idea days after someone else came up with an idea and not giving anyone the proper credit for it. It's happen to me and I'm sure it's happen to others. I understand that more than one person can get the same idea. But it's nice to say I agree with this idea and expand or say I don't know if anyone has had this idea and has posted it before. Ok I'm through. Danielle --- Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > > wrote: > > Does anyone have a statistical view of how the OWL > marks should fall? > > There are O, E, A for the passing grade, correct? > P and D would both > > be failures? So how many students would > reasonably be able to take > > Transfigurations or Potions? How many would be > expected to pass? I > > know Snape said his classes had a high pass rate. > > > > ... I was wondering how large the classes might > be and who we might > > see placed together. ... one class of all 4 > houses. Of course, a > > student could pass an OWL, but not need the NEWT > level for > > their chosen career. > > > > IIRC, JKR ... Would she be familiar with the bell > curve? Or does > > that theory even hold water any more? > > > > Potioncat > > > bboy_mn; > > I discussed school grades briefly in - > Date: Thu Apr 29, 2004 > Subject: Re: OWLS > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/97262 > > Although, it doesn't necessarily directly answer any > of your questions. > > First let's put the wizards grades into a format > that most U.S. > citizens are familiar with > > A = O = Outstanding > B = E = Exceeds Expectations > C = A = Acceptable > D = P = Poor > F = T = Troll or Terrible > > In my day (he said croakily) we didn't use a curve, > grades were > stickly by percentage and with little mercy. To the > best of my > recollection- > > A = 100% to 94% (pass) > B = 93% to 87% (pass) > C = 86% to 80% (pass) > D = 79% to 75% (just barely pass) > F = below 75% (fail) > > Very few kids today could wtihstand a grading system > like that. > > In the wizard world, I suspect each teacher sets > their own grading > standard and assigns the wizard letter grades > accordingly. > > Next, let's remember that there is a difference > between passing an OWL > and getting into NEWT classes. Snape demands > Outstanding to get into > NEWT Level; McGongall requires Exceeds Expectations. > > So what happens if you get a passing 'Acceptable' in > Tranfigurations? > > You passed the class but don't meet the > qualifications for the NEWT > class; then what? > > So, is there a standard grade form 6 & 7 > Transfiguration class as well > as a NEWT Level Advanced Transfiguration class? > > The Standard as well as the Advanced option is > possible but it doesn't > seem very logical. I guess, on one hand, we could > consider the > Standard grade class like techincal school, and the > Advance NEWT class > more like Junior College. > > Personally, I consider the whole concept of NEWT > classes like Junior > College. To model it after the muggle world, when > you get your high > school diploma (OWLs), you either go off to join the > working world, or > you go to college/university. That's how I see the > wizard world. Of > course, that ignores the techincal/trade/vocational > school aspect of > the real world, but I suspect in the wizard world, > the equivalent of > techincal/trade schools are on-the-job > apprenticeships. > > I don't think we really know enough to resolve this. > All the senior > classmates that Harry knows (that we also know > about), essentially > amounts to the Grif. Quidditch team and Lee Jordan, > all fo which > continue to study at Hogwarts after OWLs, but we see > very very very > few students above (or below) Harry's year, so we > have no indication > whether a significant number of students left after > OWLs. > > I lean in that direction. I want to see, and > reasonably expect, the > class sizes to be small and perhaps even structured > differently. > Because of that, I could very easily see all the > houses together in > one classroom; perhaps even, in some cases, merging > 6th and 7th years > into one class. > > That certainly opens the door to more interaction > between Harry, and > Slytherin and Rawenclaw houses, and even opens the > door to Harry > getting to know some Slytherins who are outside > Draco's influence. > > Draco is the classic 'popular' or 'cool' kid and > leader of the > 'popular' crowd. He is rich, has nice clothes, an > obvious leader, > confident, outgoing, teacher's pet, and an athlete; > that spells > popular kid in nearly every school in the world. > However, we all know > from our own experience that while the popular kids > are admired by > many (usually including the staff), they are deeply > despised by > others. Look at Giffindor's reaction to popular, > cool, handsome, > athletic Hufflepuff Cedric. > > I suspect that there are a few Slytherins who deeply > loath Draco, and > would like nothing better that to see him take a > serious fall. > However, as again we all know from our own school > days, you will > always have a difficult time challenging a popular > kid. Mainly because > the school including the staff will usually take the > side of that > popular kids. > > Even more so, it is my opinion that some Slytherin, > while they do > support the concept of wizard aristocracy, they > think having a total > mental case like Voldemort in charge will be the > literal, and > certainly the financial, ruin of the wizard world. > From these ranks of > proud, noble but more stable and cash conscious > Slytherin will come > the ranks of the 'Good Slytherins'. They will fight > against Voldemort > mostly because it is the most economically > advantages option. > > I guess you could say it is one thing to be driven > by power, but > something else altogether, to be blinded by power. > > Just passing it along. > > bboy_mn > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From burgess at cynjut.net Thu May 6 19:24:04 2004 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:24:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: What am I missing? In-Reply-To: <1083787452.12141.16888.m19@yahoogroups.com> References: <1083787452.12141.16888.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <45173.143.250.2.101.1083871444.squirrel@www4.neonramp.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97803 Annemehr said: > > By the way, there was something JKR said that seemed to contradict > that last chat on March 4: > > **************************************************** > SB: I'm going to ask one more. There were a lot of groans when I said > we were going to wrap it up, so one more. What happened to Harry's > grandparents? > > JKR: Um, various interesting things, but again, I'm not going to share. > > ***************************************************** > > Annemehr: > That's odd, because recently she said their deaths weren't really > important to the story, didn't she? Interesting and 'important to the story' can be mutually exclusive. Maybe it's a hint of the prequel that we have all been writing in our minds. -- Dave Burgess CTO and Chief Engineer, Nebraska On-Ramp Bellevue, NE 68123 From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 6 19:35:54 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 19:35:54 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97804 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > > I think themes and events are building towards an ending where Harry makes the hardest decision of his life and gives himself up in some form to defeat Voldemort once and for all. The vision I get is Harry somehow giving up his magical ability in order to take away Voldemort's ability; the ultimate destiny of their magical and blood links. > Yeah, that's what I've been saying too. And I've thought of a way it could happen. We know that some of Harry's magical abilities came from Voldemort. Suppose they all did? Suppose it's Harry, not Neville, who was the natural-born squib. So when Voldemort finally dies, Harry's powers vanish forever. Pippin From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 19:09:30 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 12:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD=Harry?! In-Reply-To: <003801c43323$ce787810$6401a8c0@helenw1> Message-ID: <20040506190930.31299.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97805 >From Helen (LizardLaugh): http://www.knight2king.net :) Enjoy! The clues fit Ron=DD more than they fit Harry=DD. animallover_11: I was reading the information about Ron being DD. It seems to me that most of the information is not specific to Ron. Most can also be related to Harry. There is mention of young DD's hair being auburn. If I remember correctly Lily is actually describe often with Auburn hair. Also Auburn hair is very different from "bright red". There was also hinting that JK would bring the metamorh back into the story but we were actually already introduced to the idea in PS/SS. Harry's hair always looks the same. No matter how often he gets it cut. I believe Vernon makes a comment about how often Harry needs a hair cut. A comparison is made between Ron and DD because they both have a love of sweets and how Ron in PS tells Harry all about the WW sweets. Harry was first intorduced to the sweets on the train and the cart had just come by. Harry often recieves Bertie Botts from Ron for Christmas so it would seem that Harry would have a more likely chance to encounter the vomit flavoured bean. DD knowing exactly what Ron saw in the mirror can be taken as proof that DD=Harry just as easily as Ron = DD since he knew what both Harry and Ron saw in the mirror. It was also brought up that DD saw himself getting socks. This could also be taken as a Harry conection. The socks seem to be associated with a mothers love. Yes Ron always recieved socks from Molly and never apperciated them but it could be taken as Harry wanting a mother to love him. He never truly had a mother and it is possible that Molly (his surrogate) will end up being killed. DD is often said to be wearing purple or maroon which could be Harry honouring his best friend who was killed at the hand of the enemy. Harry's scar was always regarded as DD as an important thing to be left alone. It is the way that LV can communicate his feelings and thoughts to Harry. This could be a way for DD to be a step ahead. If Harry is DD this also could be what was meant when DD said about the relationship being what they "ever had been". It also makes more sense that Harry is DD from the PS quote saying that "I would trust Hagrid with my life. " Other suggestions that seem to be more like Harry are the belief in Sirius (he was Harry's godfather) and Hagrid's hut. These are all Harry type situations. Harry also develops a love of wizards chees through Ron. He is not nearly as good as Ron but he does start to play. animallover_11 From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 19:42:31 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 19:42:31 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97806 --- "Jim Ferer" wrote: > The vision I get is Harry > somehow giving up his magical ability in order to take away > Voldemort's ability; the ultimate destiny of their magical and blood > links. > > Dumbledore's "look of triumph" at the end of GoF and his seeming > letdown afterwards. He may have recognized the potential effect of > this blood link and then realized the consequences for Harry. My > hypothesis is a possible explanation. > > This hypothesis is consistent with the Prophecy. > Okay, so are we talking a binding spell of some sort? Because I don't remember there being any kind of spell like that ever being mentioned before. Plus, aren't wizards just naturally magical? (For example, Neville's Uncle Algie trying to drown Neville, the little boy at the QWC, Harry pre-Hogwarts,etc.) And why wouldn't the same people who insisted that Hagrid be expelled, the people who broke his wand, why wouldn't they just use a binding spell on him? Why not do that to everyone who gets sent to Azkaban? That way, if they did escape (which plenty of people now have) they wouldn't be as big of a threat to the WW if they couldn't perform magic anymore. Sorry if I'm bumming you out! :-) Susan > From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 15:31:49 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 15:31:49 -0000 Subject: Grandparents redux (was Re: What am I missing?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97807 > Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > I still have to believe that [Harry's grandparents'] deaths will have some > importance although they themselves may not...of all the gaps in our > knowledge this frustrates my muggle logic the most...apparently alive > and in good health when James was an upper level student at Hogwarts, > his parents (and Lily's) are all dead within the next few years > (roughly four, is it?) by the time Harry is orphaned. This is just > too much of a coincidence for me. I too find it odd that so many parents and grandparents are dead. Were they caught up in the WW war? We don't know anything about anyone's parents. Where's Remus' parents? We've been on the discussion re: LV and poor parenting skills, but it seems to me that we're given hints that Remus' parents loved their son, got over the fact that their son was now a werewolf, etc., so what happened to them? What happened to Sirius' mom and where's his dad? I think we'll find out about Regulus Black, but nothing's ever said about the dad. I can understand that James' parents might have gotten caught up in the war, but why would Lily's parents? They're muggles, right? Where are they? Susan (whose fanfic revolves around the Marauders, so would really like to know what happened to all the adults!) From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 15:41:36 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 15:41:36 -0000 Subject: Q's about Yule Ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97808 > Geoff: > > (GOF "The Unexpected Task" p.338 UK edition) > > 'He (Harry) felt himself going red. "I don't dance," he said quickly. > "Oh yes, you do," said Professor McGonagall irritably. "That's what > I'm telling you. Traditionally, the champions and their partners open > the ball."' I know the books are written primarily for kids, and I know that the books deal with more mature themes, etc., as the kids mature, but we haven't read much of anything re: social interaction, dances, etc., at Hogwarts. There's a good topic on the board re: good Slytherines and uniting the four houses, but how is this supposed to happen when none of them really fraternize with each other? In Hagrid's CoMC class we know there are Gryffindors and Slytherins for example, so kids do interact to some extent with kids from other houses, but is that the extent of their interactions? When I was in high school (ages and ages ago)we had the Homecoming and Prom, sure, but we also had numerous dances in between. I can understand that JKR probably had no need to mention anything like that in the earlier books when Harry and Ron would still be believing that all girls had cooties, but what about now? Susan From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 15:51:32 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 15:51:32 -0000 Subject: Implications of talking by fireplace In-Reply-To: <20040506023459.49577.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97809 > "sbursztynski" : > > Since the WW doesn't have "fellytones" and seems to be in contact by > > fireplace/floo powder, how would you contact friends just for a chat? > Mo: > > Or, why not just step into the floo network and go > over to your friend's house directly? That would make > much more sense than kneeling in an uncomfortable > fireplace. > What I am curious to know is how the fireplaces are > connected to the floo network in Hogwarts when no one > is even allowed to apparate there.... I don't think they're the same thing. I really doubt you can just walk through a fireplace and get into Hogwarts. If so, wouldn't people like Crouch Sr arrive at Hogwarts that way since it would be much quicker? Wouldn't the DA have used the floo network to arrive at the MoM? I understand that conversations can be monitored, but I don't see how someone could trace where exactly you went if you travceled by the floo. Susan who's very curious to know what young wizards do for fun. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 16:07:38 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 16:07:38 -0000 Subject: Can a M$^blood even become a pureblood? (From Assumption) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97810 Mandy Croyance: Inbreeding would become even more integral to the functioning of such a society and deformities aboud. As far as we know the wizarding world is nowhere near the size of the muggle world and the number of pure-blooded families is painfully small. It has already been said that wizards would have died out had they not married muggles. My question: Is it possible for a m$&blood family eventually to become a pureblood family? Ok, James is from a pureblooded family. Lily comes from a muggle family, but she's obviously a wizard. They have Harry. Isn't he (Harry) technically more "pure" than Lily (bloodwise)? So if he married a pureblood, their child would be even more "pure" wouldn't he/she? And if that child grows up and marries a pureblood... See where I'm going? Where does it end? Susan From hannah at readysolve.com Thu May 6 20:15:06 2004 From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 20:15:06 -0000 Subject: Q's about Yule Ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97811 There's a good topic on the board re: good Slytherines > and uniting the four houses, but how is this supposed to happen when > none of them really fraternize with each other? In Hagrid's CoMC > class we know there are Gryffindors and Slytherins for example, so > kids do interact to some extent with kids from other houses, but is > that the extent of their interactions? When I was in high school > (ages and ages ago)we had the Homecoming and Prom, sure, but we also > had numerous dances in between. I can understand that JKR probably > had no need to mention anything like that in the earlier books when > Harry and Ron would still be believing that all girls had cooties, > but what about now? > > Susan I don't think there are dances, but there are definitely extracurricular activities which include members of more than one house. Harry is probably too busy to take part in them, but they do exist. There is a gobstones club and someone was turned down for a place on the quidditch team because they would put charms club first (OotP). Khilari. From helen at odegard.com Thu May 6 20:25:38 2004 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 13:25:38 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD=Harry?! In-Reply-To: <20040506190930.31299.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009401c433a8$4b956220$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 97812 animallover_11: I was reading the information about Ron being DD. It seems to me that most of the information is not specific to Ron. Most can also be related to Harry. There is mention of young DD's hair being auburn. If I remember correctly Lily is actually describe often with Auburn hair. Also Auburn hair is very different from "bright red". There was also hinting that JK would bring the metamorh back into the story but we were actually already introduced to the idea in PS/SS. Harry's hair always looks the same. No matter how often he gets it cut. I believe Vernon makes a comment about how often Harry needs a hair cut. A comparison is made between Ron and DD because they both have a love of sweets and how Ron in PS tells Harry all about the WW sweets. Harry was first intorduced to the sweets on the train and the cart had just come by. Harry often recieves Bertie Botts from Ron for Christmas so it would seem that Harry would have a more likely chance to encounter the vomit flavoured bean. DD knowing exactly what Ron saw in the mirror can be taken as proof that DD=Harry just as easily as Ron = DD since he knew what both Harry and Ron saw in the mirror. It was also brought up that DD saw himself getting socks. This could also be taken as a Harry conection. The socks seem to be associated with a mothers love. Yes Ron always recieved socks from Molly and never apperciated them but it could be taken as Harry wanting a mother to love him. He never truly had a mother and it is possible that Molly (his surrogate) will end up being killed. DD is often said to be wearing purple or maroon which could be Harry honouring his best friend who was killed at the hand of the enemy. Harry's scar was always regarded as DD as an important thing to be left alone. It is the way that LV can communicate his feelings and thoughts to Harry. This could be a way for DD to be a step ahead. If Harry is DD this also could be what was meant when DD said about the relationship being what they "ever had been". It also makes more sense that Harry is DD from the PS quote saying that "I would trust Hagrid with my life. " Other suggestions that seem to be more like Harry are the belief in Sirius (he was Harry's godfather) and Hagrid's hut. These are all Harry type situations. Harry also develops a love of wizards chees through Ron. He is not nearly as good as Ron but he does start to play. animallover_11 >From Helen: Well... maybe. I do think Harry is a Metamorphmagus, but while Dumbledore seems to know a lot, he doesn't know things Harry would know (but Ron wouldn't). Like what is in the Prophecies and the extent of how bad the Dursleys are to Harry. And if you read through the whole thing again, you see little clues like with the socks and Dumbledore mentioning the Weasley clock that just fit Ron. Regardless, I *do* think Dumbledore is a time traveler. From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu May 6 20:36:18 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 20:36:18 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97813 Jim Ferer wrote: JKR has said in an interview something to the effect that there are Biblical parallels to her story and that those familiar will the Bible will figure out what's coming. (Somebody correct this, but I'm pretty sure the drift is correct.) The parallel isn't perfect, but the idea of self-sacrifice for others is right on. vmonte responds: If there are biblical parallels, that means that someone will martyr themselves for a cause; and there is a Judas within the Order. Will someone also rise from the dead, or perhaps reincarnate? vmonte From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 6 21:26:24 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 21:26:24 -0000 Subject: Can a M$^blood even become a pureblood? (From Assumption) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > Mandy Croyance: > ...edited... > > My question: > Is it possible for a m$&blood family eventually to become a pureblood > family? Ok, James is from a pureblooded family. Lily comes from a > muggle family, but she's obviously a wizard. They have Harry. Isn't > he (Harry) technically more "pure" than Lily (bloodwise)? So if he > married a pureblood, their child would be even more "pure" wouldn't > he/she? And if that child grows up and marries a pureblood... See > where I'm going? Where does it end? > > Susan bboy_mn: Tricky question. Part of the problem is that referring to Full Blood and Half Blood seems easy and obvious, but can only be applied to ancestry, and not to the magical individual. Harry is of Full Blood parentage; both his parent are magical. Seamus is of Half Blood parentage; his father a muggle, his mother a witch. He has only one magical parent. Yet, Harry and Seamus are both fully magical people. On the other hand, I don't think one is half wizard in the same way one is half Norwegian. Magic can not so easily be measured in blood or ancestry. You are either magic or you are not, and if you are magic then you are full magic. Restated, there is no such thing as being half a wizard or half a witch. So, in this sense, Hermione, who has full muggle parentage, is a full-blooded witch because she is a fully magical person. Do you see what I am getting at here? Now to Pureblood, the problem with locking down a working definition of Pureblood is that it is not an absolute fact; it is a matter of opinion. In one person's eyes, if you have 10 generations of pure blood, then for all practical purposes, you are a Pureblood. To someone else, if there is the slighted drop, no matter how distant, of muggle blood in your direct lineage, then you are contaminated. To other's still, they may consider Harry's children to be pure blood (assuming he marries a witch) because he is the product of two magical people, who married someone who is the product of two magical people, and that would make his children magically pure. ... or any one of a dozen other ways viewing the situation. Now to make the matter more complicated we have Squibs. Squibs have magically pure blood, but no magic. So, are they pure or not? What if 10 parallel generations of pure blood Squibs married until the final generation produced Hermione. After 10 generations, Hermione's parents may have lost track of the fact that they were both decended through 9 prior generations of pureblood people for whom the magical essense had been lost. Now with Hermione's birth, that magical essense reappears; so, is Hermione a Pureblood or not? You understand, of course, I propose this purely for purposes of illustration. I don't really believe this is Hermione's history, just trying to point out how uncertain and ill-defined this whole 'pureblood' thing is. So, purity of blood is in the eye of the beholder. Just a thought. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 6 21:33:01 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 21:33:01 -0000 Subject: Inaugural address and Mandy Croyance on Assumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97816 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" wrote: Mandy Croyance: > Why do we always believe what we are told? Could it be because Harry > typically believes the word of those he `trusts' and as he is the > protagonist we are inclined to identify with him? Not to mention > that it is far easier to do so as that is subconscious than > consciously search for evidence that proves otherwise. > > The truth is that the characters, like normal people, are not always > correct. The too are subject to inherit bias and misinformation. > Some simply lie. Geoff: We have to take what we are told as the correct parameters until other information from different sources either genuinely contradicts what we have thought up to that point in time or throws doubts on the trustworthiness of the information. If we are told something verbally without any back up information, then we have to make a subjective response to it. If it comes from a friends or someone we have proven tobe reliable in the past, then we are likely to assume that the data is accurate. In other words, for things to function, we have to assuem that what we are told is "innocent until proven guilty", i.e. reliable until proved fallible or deceitful. If I were in Harry's shoes, I would be very likely to believe those who had shown me affection, support and help. These would therefore include Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonagall, Hermione and Ron while those who apparently didn't give a damn about me or my feelings - folk such as Snape, Filch or Draco Malfoy - would be on my list of people to distrust and avoid. I am sure that we all have learned to adjust our view of some people we have known in the past as we have seen more of them and their views. From rredordead at aol.com Thu May 6 21:42:33 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 21:42:33 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97817 > Sigune here: snip > In any case it has always struck me that the Slytherins are a kind of > outcasts at Hogwarts, despite the fact that they are purebloods. I > don't know very well how to formulate this... I mean, Slytherin is, > academically speaking, a 'good' house, is it not? It is successful as > a unit. And then there is the fact that it is mostly composed of the > offspring of wizards who rank rather highly in the WW. Yet it has a > bad reputation and the other houses band together against it. > Mandy here: It's a very interesting post. I think it seems as if Slytherin is the outcast house because Harry see it that way, and we see the school though his eyes. Plus the movies have added to the misconception of Slytherin by showing all Slyths apart from Draco as ugly and gormless. WE simply don't have enough on Slytherin to make those judgments. Pansy Parkinson for example is described has having a pug face. Well, I knew a girl in school who had a pug face and we called her that because she was beautiful. Little button nose that turned up at the end, full lips, dark hair in a bob that framed her face. We were mean little things. Of course Pansy is a tough little cookie as well, but perhaps she has older brothers? Just like Ginny. But Ginny is a Gryffindore and a friend of Harry's so we see her toughness as an attribute where Pansy is a little bully. Most of what we know about the members of Slytherin is narrow minded, preconceptions from people who have been on the wrong side of a Slyth in the past; Hagrid, Sirius, Ron, Hermione, and Harry himself. Being picked on by another kid, is awful and in a situation where there is a house system that is so strong, like Hogwarts, that hatred it is projected into the house that that kid comes from. Safety in numbers right? Always back up you house no matter what, of course. Don't assume all bullies come from Slytherin either. Look at James and Sirius. In their day I'm inclined to believe they put Gryffindore in a position where Slytherin is now. The dominant house, full of arrogant bullying pureblooded kids. Each house could seem like the outcast house depending on how you look them. Ravenclaw takes the nerds, Huffelpuff the rejects, Slytherin the bad kids and Gryffindore the arrogant showoffs. I think Slytherin is ganged up upon by the other houses simply because they have been the top house for so long. Not just the Quidditch Cup winners for years in a row, before Gryiffindor won in Harry's 3rd year. (We don't have records for the House Cup so we don't know where they stood on that score.) But also a house full of rich privileged kids. Whenever you get the same top dog team winning every year the other gang up on them out of sheer spite. Much like with the US in the Olympics. I live in New York my husband is American, but I get so sick of the US winning everything I'll cheer for France in any sport they meet up in! (And I'm British, we never cheer for France!) It's just spite and jealousy and the desire to see the champion loose. It doesn't take away from the fact that the US are still the best in most sports they compete in. I don't see all Slytherins as bad, just fiercely ambitious, single- minded. And most alpha males and females are. No one gets to the top in anything they do without ambition and a bit of selfishness. That's just a fact of life. Don't forget our hero is in Gryffindore because he chose to be. That doesn't mean he wouldn't make a great Slytherin. Cheers Mandy From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 20:43:21 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 13:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040506204321.19123.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97818 vmonte responds: > Will someone also rise from the dead, or perhaps reincarnate? animallover_11: Would LV not be considered either rising from the dead or being reincarnate? That his how he came back to power. animallover_11 From nepenthales at yahoo.com Thu May 6 21:21:32 2004 From: nepenthales at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 21:21:32 -0000 Subject: Can a M$^blood even become a pureblood? (From Assumption) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97819 Susan wrote: > My question: > Is it possible for a m$&blood family eventually to become a > pureblood family? Ok, James is from a pureblooded family. Lily > comes from a muggle family, but she's obviously a wizard. They > have Harry. Isn't he (Harry) technically more "pure" than Lily > (bloodwise)? So if he married a pureblood, their child would be > even more "pure" wouldn't he/she? And if that child grows up and > marries a pureblood... See where I'm going? Where does it end? It doesn't end. It doesn't matter how many generations follow; the bloodline would never be pure wizard again. The 'pureness' of the blood would approach 100%, but would never get there. That's the mathematical take on it anyway. :/ Any geneticists hereabout? -Nepenthales From msmerymac at yahoo.com Thu May 6 21:32:22 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 21:32:22 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97820 > Sigune wrote: > Snape has done a great job of boosting the Slytherins' self-esteem, > seeing that under his guidance they won both the House and > Quidditch Cup seven years in a row prior to Harry's arrival. It > seems to me that IF anyone has influence over the Slytherins, it > would be Snape, and I can't imagine he would let his students join > the Death Eaters if he can prevent it. Luckie: I actually think in raising their "self-esteem" Snape may have made them more like outcasts. Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws often support Gryffindor to win the quidditch cup (after their teams have lost) because they don't want Slytherin to get it. After winning the house cup for 7 years, people would probably be happy to see anyone else win, and if Gryffindor has the best chance, so be it. The Slytherins, on the other hand, probably view this as jealousy. If you were an 11 year old Ravenclaw what would you dislike more - the pureblood ideology, or the fact that the slytherins ALWAYS won? The Slytherins were kind of like the Yankees of Hogwarts until Harry came along. So Snape could have actually fueled a feud/split between the houses. Of course, if we are right in deducing that his teaching methods are *meant* to make students learn, just very misguided, we can equate his teaching methods with helping the Slytherin's self- esteem, if that made any sense. ~Luckie, who means no offense to fans of the NY yankees. From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Thu May 6 23:23:38 2004 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 23:23:38 -0000 Subject: International Standards (was: OWL EXAM CALCULATIONS) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97823 bboy_mn wrote: A = O = Outstanding B = E = Exceeds Expectations C = A = Acceptable D = P = Poor F = T = Troll or Terrible A = 100% to 94% (pass) B = 93% to 87% (pass) C = 86% to 80% (pass) D = 79% to 75% (just barely pass) F = below 75% (fail) John: A = 70 % to 100 % B = 60 % to 69 % C = 50 % to 59 % D = 40 % to 49 % Mr Kenney: Just for anyone interested in comparing all these results, Australian University grading system goes as follows: HD= 85 % to 100 % High Distinction D= 75 % to 84 % Distinction C= 65 % to 74 % Credit P= 50 % to 64 % Pass CP= 45 % to 49 % Conceded Pass F= 0 % to 44 % Fail I bring this up as when we finally find out our "hero's" results an international barrier will prohibit anyone from finding out what they mean unless literally translated by JK herself. I'd like to see the ministry of education's assessment methods and records. Does the system gather marks for a total, or start with 100% and deduct marks for incorrect answers or bad incantations? As JK is a teacher, I hope to see her thoughts on grading, assessment and examinations through Harry Potter. -Mr Kenney Who still believes we will need to wait 7 more years before Harry Potter is put to rest. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 7 00:22:21 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 00:22:21 -0000 Subject: Inaugural address and Mandy Croyance on Assumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97824 Nora: > Small nipitck, Kneasy: Harry isn't Muggleborn. Bellatrix considers him to be a half-blood (because Lily was Muggleborn, I assume), but he's actually less half-blood than Tom Riddle, who was the child of a witch and a Muggle; Harry is the child of a witch and a wizard. As I said, half-bloods are an unknown quality--and yeah, the classifications are awfully arbitrary. But I suspect the SH 'knows', or can't, put a child with two non-magical parents into Slytherin.< Slytherin had, as Dumbledore noted, a certain disregard for rules -- why not his own? Flexibility could turn out to be Slytherin House's saving grace. Pippin From jferer at yahoo.com Fri May 7 00:30:19 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 00:30:19 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97825 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Jim Ferer wrote: > > JKR has said in an interview something to the effect that there are > Biblical parallels to her story and that those familiar will the Bible > will figure out what's coming. (Somebody correct this, but I'm pretty > sure the drift is correct.) The parallel isn't perfect, but the idea > of self-sacrifice for others is right on. > > > vmonte responds: > > If there are biblical parallels, that means that someone will martyr > themselves for a cause; and there is a Judas within the Order. Will > someone also rise from the dead, or perhaps reincarnate? JKR has indicated Biblical parallels, *not* that every element in the Passion story will have an exact analogue in Harry's story. I always have taken it to suggest the idea of sacrificing oneself for the sake of others. From jferer at yahoo.com Fri May 7 00:44:15 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 00:44:15 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > Susan said, > Okay, so are we talking a binding spell of some sort? Because I > don't remember there being any kind of spell like that ever being > mentioned before. Plus, aren't wizards just naturally magical? (For > example, Neville's Uncle Algie trying to drown Neville, the little > boy at the QWC, Harry pre-Hogwarts,etc.) > > And why wouldn't the same people who insisted that Hagrid be > expelled, the people who broke his wand, why wouldn't they just use a > binding spell on him? Why not do that to everyone who gets sent to > Azkaban? That way, if they did escape (which plenty of people now > have) they wouldn't be as big of a threat to the WW if they couldn't > perform magic anymore. If this scenario came to pass, then Harry's magic would be removed from him in a manner yet unknown, in some manner that mey not be repeatable. The "natually magical" thing isn't an objection, actually. We can naturally see, but many of us lose our sight. Jim Ferer From jasnyder at intrex.net Fri May 7 01:20:51 2004 From: jasnyder at intrex.net (Jen Snyder) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 21:20:51 -0400 Subject: A thought about the prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97828 I was thinking about the prophecy earlier today (actually staring at part of it because it's my screensaver)...the part that says "...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...". That's always bothered me, because it seems to imply that Harry must kill Voldemort, or Voldemort must kill Harry, because neither of them can live if the other one is living...but they are, in fact, both living now (since Voldemort was returned to human form in GoF). And then it occurred to me... What if "the other" is another person? Then the phrase could be interpreted as either Harry or Voldemort must die at the the hand of The Other (another person/being/force), because neither one of them can live if this other person/being/force is alive. And then maybe the final battle isn't Harry vs Voldemort, it will mean that Harry and Voldemort both do battle against some other person, and that one of them must sacrifice himself, or both of them will die. I know that Dumbledore says that the prophecy means that Harry must vanquish Voldemort, or vice versa, but he's been wrong before...and the growing connection between Harry and Voldemort might presage their need to (gulp!) join forces? Or have I just been staring at these words too long?... Jen From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri May 7 01:47:30 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 01:47:30 -0000 Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97829 Pippin: > I disagree that the Order's main task in Book Six will be to > protect Harry. Harry is the person who *least* needs protection > from Voldemort. Siriusly Snapey Susan: I'm feeling rather dense at the moment [it's been a long week!]. Could you be impressed upon to explain why you say this, Pippin? Thanks, Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri May 7 02:18:56 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 02:18:56 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: <20040506204321.19123.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, animal lover wrote: > animallover_11: > > Would LV not be considered either rising from the dead or being reincarnate? That his how he came back to power. > > > > animallover_11 If we are to go along with Biblical parallels, then someone who supposedly made a sacrifice for the Light will have to come back. I want to say that we will be lead to think that Harry is dead, although he is not in reality, but of course it could be anybody. I just don't think Voldie counts at all. :o) Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri May 7 02:23:16 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 02:23:16 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97831 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > JKR has indicated Biblical parallels, *not* that every element in the > Passion story will have an exact analogue in Harry's story. I always > have taken it to suggest the idea of sacrificing oneself for the sake > of others. I think that resurrection idea goes right along with the sacrifice. For the ending even loosely remind us of biblical sacrifice, there has to be a resurrection, IMO. From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Fri May 7 03:02:25 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 20:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore's Army (DA) In-Reply-To: <1083787452.12141.16888.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040507030225.27938.qmail@web13522.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97832 Message: 19 Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 15:24:46 -0000 From: "jimlaming" Subject: Re: Dumbledore's Army (DA) And since we already sort of know that SS was involved with LV, DE's and the dark arts, why tempt him? Sort of like asking an alcoholic to run a pub... Jim imagines: Can you imagine Snape as the DADA? Think of the way he treats Neville and Harry in Potions, then transfer that teaching method to DADA! Neville would never have gained confidence like he did from Lupin and Harry would have been truly tortured learning to resist the Unforgivable Curses. No, Snape would hurt the DADA program (students) more than he would help it. The real Moody OTOH. Now there is a DADA Professor! JimLaming Mo now, I agree. I think DD wants as many students to learn about DADA in order to ensure he has a bunch of students ready to fight and defend themselves against DE and LV. DD knew that LV would rise again, and he wants to do everything to ensure that the students are protected. Since many of the kids dislike Snape, they also have an inderect displaced dislike of potions too. It wouldn't be wise to put Snape as DADA teacher because the kids may not be willing to learn and work as hard as they would, say, for a teacher they liked and respected (i.e. Lupin) ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From jasonlava at yahoo.com Fri May 7 02:18:40 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 02:18:40 -0000 Subject: FILK: Rat On The Run Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97833 Rat On The Run (parody of "Band On The Run" by Paul McCartney) SIRIUS: Stuck inside these four walls Sent to rot forever Looking at the paper Him again Pettigrew Hogwarts Pettigrew Hogwarts Pettigrewww (synth solo: Imagine Sirius as Padfoot slowly sneaking out of Azkaban and finding his way out) Know a way to get out of here Can't let Pettigrew get away Gonna show them all to see James and Lilly he did betray Know a way to get out of here Know a way to get out of here (music speeds up: Fast forward to the Shrieking Shack) Well they finally found me in the shrieking shack And accused me what I've done And I tried to explain to everybody there I never was the one Rat on the run Rat on the run And Harry P and Ron Weasley Had me under the gun For the rat on the run Rat on the run For the rat on the run Rat on the run Well the DADA teacher cast a heavy spell Causing Scabbers to transform And Peter begged me not to take his life `Cause he knew he'd been outdone Rat on the run Rat on the run And Harry P and Ron Weasley Had me under the gun For the rat on the run Rat on the run Yeah the rat on the run Rat on the run Well our group was walking as a bright full moon Began to come around And I changed to Padfoot as Lupin a were- wolf, Wormtail fell to the ground Rat on the run Rat on the run And into the woods up to no good He'll go help Voldemort Oh the rat on the run Rat on the run From jasonlava at yahoo.com Fri May 7 02:19:44 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 02:19:44 -0000 Subject: FILK: Magic's All Around Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97834 Magic's All Around (parody of the theme to the Mary Tyler Moore Show) This is what happens when a demented filker watches too much TV Land He starts filking HARRY: How will I make it through this time? That maze is awfully big there's creatures there that can crush my bones And the danger's unforgiving And I sure don't know if I'll will come back living RON and HERMIONE Magic's all around no need to fake it The cup is within sight, why don't you take it? You might just make it after all You might just make it after all CROOKSHANKS Meow From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri May 7 03:50:57 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 03:50:57 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Planets Shine On In Space Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97835 The latest from H.M.S. Dumbledore, my PS/SS musical The Planets Shine On In Space (PS/SS, Chap. 15) To the tune of The Hours Creep on Apace, from Gilbert and Sullivan's H.M.S. Pinafore Dedicated to Eustace Text and MIDI at: http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/pinafore/web_opera/pn15.html THE SCENE: The Forbidden Forest. FIRENZE prophecies concerning our 11- year-old hero FIRENZE The planets shine on in space My centaur soul is stirring With each portent in place The crisis is occurring The scale of it's nothing less than stellar All of which doth involve that Potter feller In the night sky see vast canopies of stars Such as Aldebaran and glad Arcturus, Rigel, bright Betelgeuse and Archenar All of whom a thriving future ensure us. We of Capella sing, and the glorious Pleiades And all of them other heaven-ly bodies. But over yonder, celestial signs of doom Now skyward warn with Acrux and Becrux glaring Polaris burns with transgalactic gloom And Bellatrix is Regulus a-scaring With dismal auguries from Alpha Centauri - All seen too plainly by the naked Centaur eye A slayer of a unicorn Accurs?d and depraved Condemned to live in damn?d form With no hope to be saved, with no hope to be saved Her blood is only drank by those With nothing more to lose His ID I will now disclose We call him "You-Know-Whose" We'll now disclose, he's "You-Know-Whose!" But he need not his crime atone If he can only grab the Stone. Despite all of my great acuity I see there is yet ambiguity I see there is yet ambiguity Oh, star of Mars and star of Venus, say What destiny shall this young lad essay?, A slayer of a unicorn Accurs?d and depraved Her blood is only drank by those With nothing more to lose His ID I will now disclose We call him "You-Know-Whose" We'll now disclose, he's "You-Know-Whose" Oh, star of Mars and star of Venus, say What destiny shall this young lad essay?, Star of Mars and star of Venus, star of Mars and star of Venus, say What shall this young lad essay?, Oh, star of Mars and star of Venus, say Oh, star of Mars and star of Venus, say What destiny shall this young lad essay, young lad essay Shall this young lad, this lad essay? - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri May 7 04:31:22 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 04:31:22 -0000 Subject: Grandparents redux (was Re: What am I missing?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97836 Susan wrote: I too find it odd that so many parents and grandparents are dead. Were they caught up in the WW war? We don't know anything about anyone's parents. Where's Remus' parents? We've been on the discussion re: LV and poor parenting skills, but it seems to me that we're given hints that Remus' parents loved their son, got over the fact that their son was now a werewolf, etc., so what happened to them? What happened to Sirius' mom and where's his dad? I think we'll find out about Regulus Black, but nothing's ever said about the dad. I can understand that James' parents might have gotten caught up in the war, but why would Lily's parents? They're muggles, right? Where are they? vmonte responds: All these missing parents worry me as well. It makes you think that the DEs targeted these people to get at DD and his people. Perhaps, Hermione and Ron should prepare themselves for an attack on their families by Voldemort. JKR has mentioned that Harry's stay at Privet Drive will be the shortest in book 6. Perhaps it's because Voldemort is going to wipe them out during summer vacation. vmonte From caesian at yahoo.com Fri May 7 04:32:05 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 04:32:05 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97837 Jen wrote: > I was thinking about the prophecy earlier today ...the part that says "...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...". > What if "the other" is another person? Caesian responds: Now that is interesting - and you are quite right - the prophesy does not exclude that possibility. I wonder who the putative "other" (* cough * Snape * cough *) might be? One problem is that, everyone we know, at the moment, "survives". So, we return to the original problem - From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri May 7 04:53:25 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 04:53:25 -0000 Subject: Muggle clothes and dungeon dormitiories (Was: Where do teachers live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97838 Carol wrote: I also don't think that the robes are open at the front as they're depicted in the American editions. I think they're more like a graduation gown that you pull over your head, which explains how Mr. Weasley could put his on back-to-front and need help getting it on right. Bookworm: My graduation gowns all zippered up the front. But if you're in a hurry, grab a gown and stick an arm in the first sleeve you find only to get twisted up...? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri May 7 06:27:41 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 06:27:41 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97839 Susan (teilani) wrote: > > Anyways... 2)Tom's not a pureblood either. Maybe that's where the > LV/TR reconciliation will come. It seems to me that LV would think > that compassion from HP would be revolting and moreover, a sign of > weakness, but the part of him that's still TR might be moved by HP's > compassion enough to make LV unstable, not so powerful, first crack > in the dam, so to speak. Mercy at the hands of his enemies might > make him question his actions. And remember, we don't know why TR, > not a pureblood, goes on this purist kick in the first place. What > is HIS motivation for killing m#%bloods? > > > Susan (teilani) who really hopes the theories re:ESE!Lupin are wrong. > So sorry to quote myself, but I am also interested in how, exactly, > LV came to persecute m%^bloods. Carol: Since you've asked this twice and received no response, I'll just throw in that IMO he hates Muggles in general, and by extension their "Mudblood" offspring who dare to invade the WW because of the Muggle father who deserted him. Not rational, but most boys who hate their fathers aren't rational, and when the hatred extends to the whole family and then to the whole "race," it becomes mania. Interesting, though, that he killed his first Muggle-born *before* he killed his father and grandparents. Maybe killing by means of a basilisk gave him the nerve (courage is the wrong word) to kill using Avada Kedavra, and killing three Muggles at once (three AKs within seconds of each other, probably) gave him a taste for genocide. I personally don't think there's any trace of the original Tom Riddle left (yes, Voldemort "relived family history" in the graveyard, but not with any intention of returning to the former self whose name he hated). How could someone who has murdered, tortured, and corrupted so many people ever be forgiven even if he sincerely repented? Even Tom Riddle, judging from Diary!Tom (who had not yet killed his father but was still, at sixteen, a murderer) seems beyond redemption. What corrupted him? IMO, hatred and a desire for revenge. You'd have to find Tom at thirteen or fourteen, before he entered the Chamber of Secrets and became obsessed with carrying out Salazar Slytherins's "noble work" in order to find a Tom susceptible to love or mercy. Maybe even then it was already too late. Carol, who hope she hasn't rambled too far off the topic! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 7 07:10:27 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 07:10:27 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - Likely Candidates. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97840 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Snyder" wrote: > ...the prophecy ...the part that says "...and either must die > at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other > survives...". > > ... it seems to imply that Harry must kill Voldemort, or Voldemort > must kill Harry, ...but they are, in fact, both living now .... > > What if "the other" is another person? > > ... interpreted as either Harry or Voldemort must die at the hand of > The Other (another person/being/force), ... neither ... live if this > other person/being/force is alive. > > ... maybe the final battle isn't Harry vs Voldemort, ... Harry and > Voldemort both do battle against some other person, and that one of > them must sacrifice himself, or both of them will die. ...edited.. > > Or have I just been staring at these words too long?... > > Jen bboy_mn: I'm with you up to the point where Harry and Voldemort join forces against the unknown third party. Perhaps what it means it that this OTHER must make a moral choice, and in making that moral choice must decide if he will kill Harry or if he will kill Voldemort. Likely candidates- (for my theory) -Peter 'Wormtail' Pettigrew -Severus Snape -Lucius Malfoy -Draco Malfoy However, we do have one very obvious and definite third party involved in the Prophecy, and that is Neville Longbottom. Although, I think Neville is very significant, I don't see how to work him into your theory. You theory does have some interesting aspect to it, and I admit I find myself intrigued, but for the life of me, I can't think of who this third party OTHER would be in your scenerio. Dementors maybe? Combining our two theories, maybe it will come to the point where the Dementors have to choose who they are going to kiss. Will they benefit more from the goodness of Harry, or the evilness of Voldemort. In the end, they must of course choose to kiss the evil Voldemort. That would, in a very round about way, mean that Harry was saved once again by his own goodness. I will say this, I've thought from the very beginning, and continue to think, that this one live in the Prophecy holds the key to everything. Just a thought. bboy_mn From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri May 7 08:22:46 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 08:22:46 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97841 Jen Snyder wrote: > I was thinking about the prophecy earlier today (actually staring > at part of it because it's my screensaver)...the part that > says "...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither > can live while the other survives...". > That's always bothered me, because it seems to imply that Harry > must kill Voldemort, or Voldemort must kill Harry, because neither > of them can live if the other one is living...but they are, in > fact, both living now (since Voldemort was returned to human form > in GoF). And then it occurred to me... > > What if "the other" is another person? > > Then the phrase could be interpreted as either Harry or Voldemort > must die at the the hand of The Other (another > person/being/force), because neither one of them can live if this > other person/being/force is alive. Del replies : Why not, but then I'd like to point out that this Other must necessarily be not alive right now. Let's see : -the most obvious solution is that this Other is a baby to be born soon. Then we'll see Harry having to kill a baby or die : does that remind you of something ? - the Other could be some kind of reincarnate or ressuscitated being. The possibilities are endless, starting with Salazar Slytherin for example. - the Other is some kind of being coming to life spontaneously. We know Dementors do that, but this one would have to be special, and I don't see how that could be. Any other idea ? But what's for sure anyway is that this Other cannot be someone currently alive or the Prophecy doesn't get any clearer than in the Harry vs. LV version. Del From jferer at yahoo.com Fri May 7 09:11:36 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 09:11:36 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97842 Jim Ferer (me):"The vision I get is Harry somehow giving up his magical ability in order to take away Voldemort's ability; the ultimate destiny of their magical and blood links." Pippin:"Yeah, that's what I've been saying too. And I've thought of a way it could happen. We know that some of Harry's magical abilities came from Voldemort. Suppose they all did? Suppose it's Harry, not Neville, who was the natural-born squib. So when Voldemort finally dies, Harry's powers vanish forever." You've got the loss of magic running the other way than my hypothesis. If that's how it happened, it would negate my hypothesis entirely, which is that 1)Harry, in some way yet unknown, gives up his magical ability; 2)because of the links between Harry and Voldemort, Voldemort's magical ability is likewise removed; and 3)Voldemort is destroyed, since he is not naturally alive and exists only because of magic. In this scenario I don't know where a resurrection would come in, unless Harry's magic was restored afterwards, which seems to me too much of a nudge nudge, wink wink, happy after all, TV ending. What attracts me to this notion is that this is really a greater sacrifice to Harry than his life and a powerful moment. I certainly don't have any proof. Jim Ferer P.S. As I was about to hit the button it came to me what form a "resurrection" could take: Harry, bereft of everything that had made his life meaningful, is accepted and honored in the world he saved - a kind of rebirth? Reborn and accepted just for himself, not for what he can do. Jim Ferer From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri May 7 11:09:18 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 11:09:18 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97843 Jen Snyder wrote: "...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...". vmonte responds: Harry or Dumbledore must die at the hand of Voldemort for neither can live while Voldemort survives... The neither can live part may mean: neither will have peace until Voldemort dies. Dumbledore will sacrifice himself for the cause. vmonte From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 7 11:23:31 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 11:23:31 -0000 Subject: International Standards (was: OWL EXAM CALCULATIONS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97844 snipping a list of scores,, Mr. Kenney wrote: > > I bring this up as when we finally find out our "hero's" results an > international barrier will prohibit anyone from finding out what > they mean unless literally translated by JK herself. I'd like to see > the ministry of education's assessment methods and records. Does the > system gather marks for a total, or start with 100% and deduct marks > for incorrect answers or bad incantations? > > As JK is a teacher, I hope to see her thoughts on grading, > assessment and examinations through Harry Potter. > > -Mr Kenney Who still believes we will need to wait 7 more years > before Harry Potter is put to rest. Potioncat: No doubt JKR will be making a statement with the scores. Either of the ministry who conducted the tests or of the students who took them. It will be interesting to see if it affects our view of Percy or Tom Riddle for scoring so high or of the twins for scoring so low. Why do you think, if there is only one school in England, that they bother with these tests? It seems a very modern, Muggle thing to do. Potioncat (Who is very grateful to someone for correcting the mistake in the heading!) From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 7 11:55:00 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 11:55:00 -0000 Subject: Grandparents redux (was Re: What am I missing?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Susan wrote: > I too find it odd that so many parents and grandparents are dead. > Were they caught up in the WW war? We don't know anything about > anyone's parents. snip< > vmonte responds: > All these missing parents worry me as well. It makes you think that > the DEs targeted these people to get at DD and his people. snip Potioncat: I'm taking this in a slightly different direction. There are those who are missing, like the ones referred to above, and ones that just aren't mentioned. Ron has his grandfather's chess set, is the grandfather dead or did he give Ron one of several? Harry of course, doesn't have much opportunity to see "grandparents" although he has seen a number of "old" witches and wizards. There may be more than grandparents missing. Think of this, if it's typical (or even not unusual) to grow up get married and have kids fairly soon, DD could easily have a bushel of great-great-great-great-grandchildren. (Assuming a new generation every 25 years.) So it would be reasonable that kids would have several "greats" as well as the usual "grands." We haven't ever had that mentioned. Where all are these folk? Is it meaningful that Serius' mother looks old? And why does Neville's grandmother look like a grandmother? McGonagall is in her 70's and she isn't described as looking old, she looks stern and has black hair. (Nope, try as I might she looks like Maggie Smith.) I don't know if I'm looking at details that aren't important to JKR. But If I'm correct, when does someone stop being "known" family. What's the chance that DD is Ron's multi-great grandfather? Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 7 12:07:25 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 12:07:25 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "caesian" wrote: > Jen wrote: > > I was thinking about the prophecy earlier today ...the part that says "...and either > must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...". > > > What if "the other" is another person? > > Caesian responds: > Now that is interesting - and you are quite right - the prophesy does not exclude that > possibility. Potioncat: In every story with a prophecy there is a surprise. It comes true, but not in the expected way... in spite of efforts to change it unexpected events lead to its fulfilment. Or when actions are taken in confidence because of it, the outcome isn't the desired one but still fit the prophecy. So I'm waiting for the surprise. Potioncat From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri May 7 12:41:34 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 12:41:34 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97847 "...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...". vmonte wrote : > The neither can live part may mean: neither will have peace until > Voldemort dies. Del replies : That can be said about MANY people. Pretty much everyone in fact. vmonte wrote : > Harry or Dumbledore must die at the hand of Voldemort for neither > can live while Voldemort survives... > > Dumbledore will sacrifice himself for the cause. Del replies : Or Lupin. Or Snape. Or any of the Weasleys. Or Neville. Or... Del From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Fri May 7 12:52:51 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 08:52:51 -0400 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - Likely Candidates. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040507084447.02ff0eb0@mail.tbbs.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97848 >Jen Snyder wrote: > > ...the prophecy ...the part that says "...and either must die > > at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other > > survives...". ><>snipped> > > What if "the other" is another person? > > > > ... interpreted as either Harry or Voldemort must die at the hand of > > The Other (another person/being/force), ... neither ... live if this > > other person/being/force is alive. > > > Jen >bboy_mn: > >I'm with you up to the point where Harry and Voldemort join forces >against the unknown third party. Perhaps what it means it that this >OTHER must make a moral choice, and in making that moral choice must >decide if he will kill Harry or if he will kill Voldemort. > >Likely candidates- (for my theory) >-Peter 'Wormtail' Pettigrew >-Severus Snape >-Lucius Malfoy >-Draco Malfoy > > >I will say this, I've thought from the very beginning, and continue to >think, that this one live in the Prophecy holds the key to everything. > >Just a thought. > >bboy_mn Phil responds, I had a thought that the other would be Tom Riddle, possessed by the Dark Lord. But I like your idea of Peter 'Wormtail' Pettigrew better... >either Harry or Voldemort must die at the hand of Peter for neither can >live while Peter survives.. Since Peter used his hand to give Voldemort life, and Voldemort gave Peter the silver hand... Maybe at the end of book seven, Harry and Voldemort confront each other. Knowing what happened the last time their wands met, they try to disarm each other. Peter is there and grabs the two wands. He decides to kill both so he would be the most powerful wizard. Realizing that holding the dark lord's wand in his silver hand would give him the power to vanquish Voldemort He uses the killing curse, but as this happens, his silver hand disappears, opening his arm again and he will die unless Harry does something to save him. Phil who likes to think up possible endings like this. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri May 7 13:32:11 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 13:32:11 -0000 Subject: Janus Thickey and his Ward Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97849 Some random thoughts on St. Mungo's and the Janus Thickey Ward: 1. I've always thought that "Janus" was pronounced with a soft "a" as in "cat". After looking up the pronunciation, though, I found that it is actually pronounced with a hard "a" as in "date". Read this way, Janus Thickey now sounds like the clue: "Jane Is The Key". Jane? Umbridge? Hermione? 2. Previously mentioned this one, but thought I'd add it in: Janus Thickey is a wizard who faked his own death by Lethifold (also known as Death Shroud, a Fantastic Beast only found in the tropics). Coincidence that JKR is reminding us of a *wizard* who *fakes his own death* by means of a *shroud (veil)* linked to the *tropics* (where Sirius spent some time after his escape)? 3. Janus Thickey is said to have disappeared in 1973. Does anyone know of this date as having any particular significance? Can't seem to figure why it was even mentioned. Trying to put this all together in my mind. Any suggestions? :: Entropy :: From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri May 7 13:46:47 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 13:46:47 -0000 Subject: Janus Thickey and his Ward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97850 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > > 2. Previously mentioned this one, but thought I'd add it in: Janus > Thickey is a wizard who faked his own death by Lethifold (also known > as Death Shroud, a Fantastic Beast only found in the tropics). > Coincidence that JKR is reminding us of a *wizard* who *fakes his own > death* by means of a *shroud (veil)* linked to the *tropics* (where > Sirius spent some time after his escape)? > > 3. Janus Thickey is said to have disappeared in 1973. Does anyone > know of this date as having any particular significance? Can't seem > to figure why it was even mentioned. > Carolyn: In the last discussion we had about this, back last year, the consensus (I think) was that this was another JKR joke/wordplay - Janus being the two-faced Roman god, and Thickey, because he was, er.. thick, trying to deceive his wife. Lexicon Steve believed Janus's name was used for the spell-damage ward on account of the spells chucked at him by his wife when she found out he had, in fact, eloped with the landlady of the Green Dragon ! From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 7 14:02:18 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:02:18 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Jim Ferer (me):"The vision I get is Harry somehow giving up his magical ability in order to take away Voldemort's ability; the > ultimate destiny of their magical and blood links." > > Pippin:"Yeah, that's what I've been saying too. And I've thought of a way it could happen. We know that some of Harry's magical abilities came from Voldemort. Suppose they all did? Suppose it's Harry, not Neville, who was the natural-born squib. So when Voldemort finally dies, Harry's powers vanish forever."< Jim: > You've got the loss of magic running the other way than my hypothesis. If that's how it happened, it would negate my hypothesis entirely, which is that > > 1)Harry, in some way yet unknown, gives up his magical ability; > > 2)because of the links between Harry and Voldemort, Voldemort's magical ability is likewise removed; and > > 3)Voldemort is destroyed, since he is not naturally alive and >exists only because of magic. Pippin: Okay...what I was thinking of was a scenario where: 1) Harry, in some way yet unknown, has acquired the only means by which he can destroy Voldemort (or Voldemort can destroy him). He then has a choice: 2) If he does not destroy Voldemort then as long as they both live, the wizarding world will never be safe from Voldemort, but Harry will always be there to defend the wizarding world from its enemy 3)If he does destroy Voldemort, it will cost him his powers (because they are really Voldemort's) The choice would be the same, though the circumstances are different. Pippin From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri May 7 15:02:41 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:02:41 -0000 Subject: Time Travel (was Re: OWLS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Message 97432, "Meredith" wrote : > The problem with this is the way JKR has established time travel >in her books. Unlike the type of time that exists in something > like "Back to the Future" or "The Butterfly Effect," you can't go > back in time and change things in HP, you can only fulfill what is > happening. For more information, read the end of PoA. Robert Jones (message 97463): >I disagree. It is clear that under JKR's theory you can >change history. True, time-traveling Harry and Hermione didn't >change history in POA ? they just participated in events as they >were supposed to happen (if that is the right way to put it). >The problem is that JKR hasn't limited herself to just that ? she >has Hermione telling Harry that McGonagall said that "loads of [time-traveling wizards and witches] ended up killing their past or >future selves by mistake." (POA 21, p. 399.) "K": I have to agree with Robert that you can change history. According to Hermione it's one of the most important wizarding laws...you are not suppose to change time. ~~'Hermione,' said Harry suddenly, 'what if we-we just run in there, and grab Pettigrew-' 'No!' said Hermione in a terrified whisper. 'Don't you understand? We're breaking one of the most important wizarding laws! Nobody's supposed to change time, nobody! You heard Dumbledore, if we're seen- PoA/Ch 21/Pgs 291-291/UK Why exactly did Dumbledore have Harry and Hermione use the time turner? ~~'There must be something that happened around now he wants us to change,' he said slowly. PoA/Ch 21/Pg 290/UK You aren't suppose to change things but Dumbledore sends them to do just that. If they had not used the time turner what would have happened to Sirius? They did something to stop what should have happened. One shouldn't meddle with time ... ~'...There's nothing we can do! We came back to help Sirius. We're not supposed to be doing anything else!' PoA/Ch 21/pg 298/UK ~'Hermione!' said Harry suddenly. 'We've got to move!' 'We mustn't, I keep telling you-' 'Not to interfere! But Lupin's going to run into the Forest, right at us!' PoA/Ch 21/pg 299/UK ~'I think I'd better go outside again, you know,' said Harry slowly. 'I can't see what's going on - we won't know when it's time-' Hermione looked up. Her expression was suspicious. 'I'm not going to try and interfere,' said Harry quickly. PoA/Ch 21/pg 299/UK ...but it has happened: ~'Exactly! You wouldn't understand, you might even attack yourself! Don't you see? Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time...loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake!' PoA/Ch 21/pg 292/UK Meredith: > So if Harry ends up going back in time in future books - back to >the first Voldy war - why hasn't anyone (i.e. Dumbledore) clued him >in? "K" Well, I'm not one of those who believe Harry should be told everything. What if Harry has caused loads of problems? He wouldn't be able to handle that info. Plus I imagine there are other reasons. Meredith: >I don't think we have any canon that can foreshadow or prove that >Harry will go back in time again. "K" Many things could be answered by the time turner. As I've said I don't like the idea but I do think we have canon proof. The time turner is introduced in PoA and it's introduced to Harry. He now knows it exists and how to use it. JKR was even asked about time travel in an interview: ~Will Harry time-travel again? JKR:Not telling! America Online/October 19, 2000 http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-aol-chat.htm Of course that's a typical JKR answer which could mean yes or no. ;-) Meredith: >If Harry goes to the future, how would present!Snape know what will >happen, if we think something with Snape *will* happen? "K" That's why I dislike time turners. Far too many questions are left unanwered. It's also hard to say how a particular author will use it and what their rules will be. I personally don't think Snape hates Harry *only* because of James and/or some unrequited love for Lily. There has to be more to the man than either of those things. Snape hates Harry. If Harry has time-traveled, who is to say that Dumbledore or others don't know about it and are trying to straighten it out? I don't imagine it would be that easy. Meredith: > Harry can't go back in time and change anything like Sirius dying. > JKR has established that past events CANNOT be changed through >time travel, but present events can be fulfilled.I hope that makes > sense. "K" Once again: ~'Exactly! You wouldn't understand, you might even attack yourself! Don't you see? Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time...loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake!' PoA/Ch 21/pg 292/UK I don't believe to kill oneself by traveling backwards or forward in time would just be a fulfillment. Meredith: >If not, someone can direct you to many other > threads discussing time travel, I am sure. "K": I actually read very few of those threads so I'm not sure why I'm replying to time travel. :-) I think another problem some people have is accepting that Harry Potter could possibly do anything wrong. It's always the other guy such as Dumbledore, Snape, etc. Yet it's Harry who would benefit the most from time travel (in his way of thinking). I don't like time travel yet I do think it will play an important role. > ~Luckie, who thinks that plot devices that have already been used, > such as time travel and evil!animagi, won't be rehashed in future > books. "K" It seems some plot devices that we have seen once were also introductions to future use. For instance, the beloved polyjuice and animagi. I believe PoA was just an introduction to the time turner. I hope I'm wrong. ~*JK: ...I loved writing Dumbledore and Dumbledore is the epitome of goodness. Canadian Broadcasting Co./July 2000 From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri May 7 15:33:54 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:33:54 -0000 Subject: Inaugural address and Mandy Croyance on Assumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97853 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: > Nora: A lot of the WW, including people we don't have a House for, strikes me as fundamentally reactionary...I have a lot more to say on this. Wait for papers to be turned in. :) > Kneasy: Hum. There is an unfortunate tendency, most marked among those that consider themselves as 'progressives' to label anything that doesn't further their agenda as 'reactionary', particularly if that involves maintaining the status quo. In the case of the WW it can be argued that it is Voldemort who is the 'progressive' and DD the 'reactionary'. Many posters draw parallels between V and Hitler, but it's just as valid to compare him to Pol Pot. There is no moral difference between discrimination based on racial/blood differences and discrimination based on an assigned social class. The victims of both end up persecuted and dead, sacrificed in the cause of social engineering that guarantees (ha!) the new Nirvana. And guess what? It never works. But that won't stop Voldy bringing the joys of an ordered society to the WW, whether folks want it or not. Much more progressive and dialectically correct than old- fashioned laissez-faire, don't you think? The purebloods who support Voldy can be labeled as reactionaries, but in that case they are trying to turn the clock back to a time that never apparently existed. Muggle-borns and mudbloods seem to have been a significant part of the Hogwarts intake even back in the days of the Founders. They see themselves as members of a self-selected elite; whether you call this an aristocracy or a self-perpetuating oligarchy is academic. There's little difference in practice between the Barons of a medieval court and the Council of Ten in Venice. A meritocracy has it's problems too. Who, on merit is best fitted to 'lead' the WW? Probably Dumbledore. But he's refused once already, condemning the WW to a weak, vacillating government. A government cannot be strong if the most powerful person in society is outside it, no matter how benevolent that person may be. All it needs is another powerful, ambitious individual with some support and such a government is on the skids. The struggle is between the supporters of the powerful, the government is irrelevant except as an incidental prize to the winner. 'Merit' is such a slippery concept in these circumstances; who decides who merits success? It boils down eventually to power. DD has power and abdicated his merited position, Voldy has power and will fill the vacuum left if he can. If he does, he can be considered to have merited it. > Nora: Agreed; to me, Voldemort is a combination of two things- -Kantian radical evil (amorality, power is the only decisive force) and a supportive power base. A thought struck me; I don't think the WW really *learned* much from VW1. The Regulus Blacks of the world who didn't want to kill people but thought Mudbloods were inferior; the ones who still live probably never put two and two together and realized how one thing leads to another. > Kneasy: Unfortunately even a cursory glance at the history books shows us that power *is* the decisive factor. "God is on the side of the big battalions" said Buonaparte, and that's the way to bet. Morality never triumphs unless allied with sufficient force, be it military, economic or political. Pretend otherwise and you end up with the truly naive and ridiculous Childrens Crusade of 1212. (This is an event that has recently given me to wonder about the future of Dumbledore's Army. Some posters expect a bunch of semi-trained kids to cut a swathe through killer DEs. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.) It's not just the Regulus Blacks of the WW that haven't put two and two together; DD seems not to have either. "Voldy's gone, throw a few supporters into Azkaban, carry on as before and everything will be all right with the world" seems to be the general attitude on all sides. Of course, he has Harry as his fall-back option if things go pear-shaped again, but addressing the basic ills of society has no priority. It probably conflicts with his basic tenet of choices defining the individual. If you allow choice you must allow the freedom to make the wrong choice. > Nora: How about this; because of the blood requirement and other factors, Slytherin will naturally have a tendency to accrue the cultural reactionaries. No Muggleborns is pretty for sure (see my note below), and that removes a *potential* mitigating factor. > Kneasy: I still prefer ambition and cunning as the defining factors. Excessive ambition promotes primacy and primacy engenders dominance when it's unrestrained. > Nora: Well, I think what Voldy is offering is both power and elevation (in the society that he'll be running, as King Subject) to those who have the ambition and meet the criteria. He's mixing up the social order by changing the criterion upon which social status and power rests... Look at some of his language ('Dumbledore, champion of commoners...)-- this is a wanna-be aristocrat at work, and I think he has definite ideas of prequalification and disqualification therefore. > Kneasy: Yes. But I doubt if he intends to raise any of his supporters very high. Power in the WW is predicated on *magical* power; that is entirely personal and cannot be delegated or transferred. True, only the snotty offspring of his trusted supporters would receive a Hogwarts education, but I'd bet that even they would get a revised curriculum. No point in encouraging delusions of adequacy, is there? Not when the top dog is immortal (not a field of knowledge I can see him urging to anyone else to study). Nah; Malfoy would be a gopher with privileges. > Nora: I think it's getting awfully cold down there, since Kneasy and I mostly agree on something. :) I'll disagree on the possession thing for now--it strikes me as a little too contrary to the general choices theme; I think it's important that Voldemort decided to become what he did, somewhere along the way. > Kneasy: Pshaw. The choice is at the other end - Tom has the choice of breaking free from his pact/possession towards redemption/rejection of evil. Possession implies no choice on Tom's part, but repudiating the possessor is a choice. From CindyJ2 at cox.net Fri May 7 16:24:11 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 11:24:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Can a M$^blood even become a pureblood? (From Assumption) References: Message-ID: <005001c4344f$bb566a80$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 97854 Susan wrote: > Is it possible for a m$&blood family eventually to become a > pureblood family? Ok, James is from a pureblooded family. Lily > comes from a muggle family, but she's obviously a wizard. They > have Harry. Isn't he (Harry) technically more "pure" than Lily > (bloodwise)? So if he married a pureblood, their child would be > even more "pure" wouldn't he/she? And if that child grows up and > marries a pureblood... See where I'm going? Where does it end? Nepenthales responded: >It doesn't end. It doesn't matter how many generations follow; the >bloodline would never be pure wizard again. The 'pureness' of the >blood would approach 100%, but would never get there. Cindy now: I've always equated the mudblood debate with the slavery debate in the early US. When slavery was legal, there were a number of rules to determine who was Black and who wasn't. The oldest was the Descent Rule, which said any offspring from a mixed union were to be considered Black, and therefore a slave. That was later clarified with the One Drop Rule, which said if your blood was 1/32 Black, you were to be considered Black. That meant that only one of your great-great grandparents had to be Black for you to be considered Black, even if you appeared very Caucasian. (Your kids, though, would be White, because they had less than 1/32 of Black blood.) As you can see, though, this was fairly difficult to prove, as people didn't live long enough to know their great-great granparents. Also, if there was a Black ancestor in your history, it was usually a well-kept secret. It seems to me that this paranoia of having "one drop" of Black blood is similar to the paranoia of having one drop of mudblood. If Ron and Sirius are to be believed, there are very few pureblood families left. I can't imagine how they've managed to remain pureblood, but unlike race (which you may be able to guess by looking at a person) pure parentage wouldn't be visible to the naked eye. You'd have to rely on family trees and ancestry charts. These, though, could be altered if there was an embarrassing marriage a few generations back. Like hiding the fact that your great-great-grandfather was Black so you would be considered White, I could see the Malfoys hiding the fact that a great-great grandparent had muggle parentage. Who'd know? In other words, people who claim to be purebloods may or may not be pureblood, and I think their hatred of mudbloods may be motivated by the fact that their parentage may not be 100% pure. Just look at Tom. He is unarguably a mudblood himself, but he's also the champion of the muggle-haters. Go figure. Cindy From CindyJ2 at cox.net Fri May 7 16:30:01 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 11:30:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 7 predictions References: Message-ID: <005401c43450$8bd77dc0$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 97855 Jim wrote: >The vision I get is Harry somehow giving up his >magical ability in order to take away Voldemort's ability; the >ultimate destiny of their magical and blood links. Pippin replied: >Yeah, that's what I've been saying too. And I've thought of a >way it could happen. We know that some of Harry's magical abilities >came from Voldemort. Suppose they all did? Suppose it's Harry, not >Neville, who was the natural-born squib. So when Voldemort finally >dies, Harry's powers vanish forever. Cindy here: Jim, I think that's a great theory, but I do hope you're wrong. I'd hate to see Harry lose his wizarding abilities. That would be too cruel. :( Pippin, I don't think *all* of Harry's abilities could have come from Voldemort. He is an excellent flier, just like his father. And his patronus is a stag, the animal his father transformed into. I'm not saying he didn't get any abilities from Lily, but we've seen at least two that in all likelihood came from James. I imagine if *all* of his talents came from Voldemort, his patronus would be very, very different. I think, therefore, that Harry was born a wizard, not a squib, although he did get additional abilities from Tom. Cindy From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 7 16:40:20 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 16:40:20 -0000 Subject: Can a M$^blood even become a pureblood? (From Assumption) In-Reply-To: <005001c4344f$bb566a80$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97856 > > Cindy now: > > I've always equated the mudblood debate with the slavery debate in the early > US. When slavery was legal, there were a number of rules to determine who > was Black and who wasn't. The oldest was the Descent Rule, which said any > offspring from a mixed union were to be considered Black, and therefore a > slave. That was later clarified with the One Drop Rule, which said if your > blood was 1/32 Black, you were to be considered Black. That meant that only > one of your great-great grandparents had to be Black for you to be > considered Black, even if you appeared very Caucasian. (Your kids, though, > would be White, because they had less than 1/32 of Black blood.) > Potioncat: Yes, that's my closest association as well. But it seems to me that the WW isn't as strict in their interpretation. They seem pretty accepting of a child of a witch and wizard, without looking too closely beyond that. Although how close someone would look might depend on what the association was to be and who was doing the "judging." Given the longevity in the WW, you'd think there would be an old Auntie or a great-great who would remember that so- and-so's ancester was a Muggle. Potioncat From pt4ever at yahoo.com Fri May 7 16:47:50 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 16:47:50 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: <005401c43450$8bd77dc0$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97857 > Cindy here: > I think, therefore, that Harry was born a wizard, not a squib, > although he did get additional abilities from Tom. I sincerely doubt that Harry was born a Squib. In PS/SS, in The-Hut- On-The-Rock, Hagrid says to the Dursleys, "James and Lily Potter's son, not go to Hogwarts? Yer mad. His name's been down in the book since he was born." (I don't have my book available so it's not an exact quote, sorry, but that's the gist of it.) I assume that the "book" Hagrid refers to is the same one JKR has told us about: a magical quill writes the name of a magical child down in this book whenever that child is born. If Harry's name is in that book he must, indeed, be magical - for he was born over a year before LV performed the AK and transferred his powers. (Also, at the end of CoS, DD says, "Voldemort transfered *some* of his powers to you" - SOME, not ALL.) - JoAnna From caesian at yahoo.com Fri May 7 17:00:26 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 17:00:26 -0000 Subject: Janus Thickey and his Ward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97858 ::Entropy:: wrote: > > > > 2. Previously mentioned this one, but thought I'd add it in: Janus > > Thickey is a wizard who faked his own death by Lethifold (also known > > as Death Shroud, a Fantastic Beast only found in the tropics). > > Coincidence that JKR is reminding us of a *wizard* who *fakes his > own > > death* by means of a *shroud (veil)* linked to the *tropics* (where > > Sirius spent some time after his escape)? > > > Carolyn: another JKR joke/wordplay - > Janus being the two-faced Roman god, and Thickey, because he was, > er.. thick, trying to deceive his wife. > > Lexicon Steve believed Janus's name was used for the spell-damage > ward on account of the spells chucked at him by his wife when she > found out he had, in fact, eloped with the landlady of the Green > Dragon ! Caesian's two bits: The Dangerous Dai Llewellyn ward at St. Mungos is also named after a famous wizard, and so it tends to make me *slightly* less worried about the Janus ward. I'm not sure what I think about the inhabitants of the Janus Thickey ward, their relatives, or their woes. (I myself have a stern grandmother, and I'm pretty sure she's not poisoning me.) And Janus as a name for this particular wizard is entirely appropriate - but why does JKR use his name for this particular ward? We already know that duplicitous bad stuff has occurred there - Mr. Bode's murder. Will that be the extent of the two-faced intrigues? Caesian - who tends to get anxious on Neville's behalf From caesian at yahoo.com Fri May 7 17:22:28 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 17:22:28 -0000 Subject: The Order will - NOT ? - be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97859 Caesian wrote (reformatted version): Now, I know I started this post by saying that clearly the Order *must* be= moving, but after this thorough discussion, I must reconsider the point: Jim Ferer wrote: Grimmauld Place is completely "blown," and of no use whatsoever as = a safe house. Kreacher can't betray its location because of Fidelius, but conside= r: here comes the house elf bound to Grimmauld Place ratting out Sirius, the same Sirius tha= t later becomes the object of Voldemort's plot to lure Harry out of Hogwarts and the same = Sirius that showed up at the MoM /with/ the rest of the Order. later, Jim elaborates: The existence of the house was known, of course, by many people, not= least Narcissa Black Malfoy and Bellatrix Black Lestrange. That knowledge can't b= e erased. Jim elaborates further: The Fidelius Charm means that nobody other than the Secret Keeper can divu= lge the house's status. Does it also mean that no one can deduce its status from Kr= eacher's appearance and revelations about Sirius Black? Pippin joins in: Does the Secret Keeper spell prevent one not initiated from even thinking = of the secret? It certainly would increase its usefulness. Caesian chips in (channeling JKR, *emphasis added*): (PoA The Marauder's M= ap UK HB 152) ... Well, of course, You-Know-Who wasn't an easy person to hide from. Du= mbledore told them [the Potters] that their best chance was the Fidelius Charm." 'How does that work? ... Professor Flitwick cleared his throat. 'An *immensely complex* spell,' he said squeakily, 'involving the magical = concealment of *a secret* inside a single, *living soul*. The information is hidden insid= e the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find - unless, of= course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused = to speak, You- Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for yea= rs and never find them, *not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting-room = window!*' First, What *kind* of information, or secret, can be concealed in this way= ? Obviously, not all information can be protected by this charm. For example, I cannot keep= your gender secret from you in this way. I probably cannot keep a secret that pertains= directly to you unless you are a participant in the creation of the charm - for example, Ro= n can't decide to hide who Hermione really likes (the secret) from Hermione. But, after the = charm is performed by the participation of all parties, it may be true that the Secr= et-Keeper then must tell the person to whom the secret refers - for example, perhaps Peter= had to tell Lily and James where they were hiding. We know the precise wording of the Secret of Grimmauld Place, because Harr= y reads it - the concealed information is this (OotP, The Advance Gaurd US HB 58):'The h= eadquarters of the Order of the Pheonix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place,= London.' What part of that complete sentence is *the secret*? We know that the abil= ity to see number twelve is linked to the Fidelius, at least for someone looking at it= for the first time: 'Harry looked around at the houses again. They were standing outside numb= er eleven; he looked to the left and saw number ten; to the right, however, was number 13= . 'But where's -?' 'Think about what you've just memorized,' said Lupin quietly. Harry thought, and *no sooner* [my emphasis] had he reached the part about= number twelve, Grimmauld Place, than a battered door emerged out of nowhere betwee= n numbers eleven and thirteen, ... Just knowing that there is an Order does not ensure that you will see Grim= mauld Place ("no sooner"). However, we also know that the knowldege of the existence = of the Order is not protected by this Fidelius Charm: OotP The Lost Prophecy US HB 831 'Vol= demort knew already, of course, that Sirius was in the Order, that you knew where he wa= s - but Kreacher's information made him realize that the one person whom you would = go to any lengths to rescue was Sirius Black.' Is it true then that the only information that is protected by this Fideliu= s Charm is number twelve itself? Or are both the people in the Order of the Pheonix and the = house hidden? It could be only the house, or it could be both. Recall the comment of Profes= sor Flitwick, that Voldemort would be unable to find Lily and James even if he had his no= se pressed against their window. That suggests to me that perhaps the people themselv= es are hidden when they are in the Charmed location. This is not inconsistent with Dumbledore's explanation: 'You see, Kreacher = was not able to betray us totally. He is not Secret-Keeper for the Order, he could not giv= e the Malfoy's our whereabouts ... But what about prior knowledge? I believe there is a fuzzy area here, in t= hat it is unclear whether Kreacher would have been able to reveal to the Malfoy's that *he* h= ad just come from Grimmauld Place. In other words, they were able to infer that he had = come from where Sirius was, but did they necessarily know that meant Grimmauld Place?= Because a house elf is bound to the house as well as to the family, I would assume so= . We know from Harry's experience that the charm operates as a sort of block to the a= bility to infer the concealed information, by literally hiding the house from view. Whethe= r this would work if you had prior knowledge of the house is up for debate. Pippin enjoins: I have a hard time thinking that someone in the DE's wouldn't say "I= think we'd better check out the house Kreacher comes from. We'll destroy it and kill e= veryone inside just to be safe." Mandy: I don't believe anyone can destroy a house that is under the Fedeal= ius Charm unless they have the Secret from the secret keeper. So, hypothetically, Har= ry could destroy Grimmauld Place but LV couldn't. Pippin: I don't agree that the Fidelius Charm makes a house impervious ? we= don't have any reason to believe it. The secret is safe, not the house, IMO, and Volde= mort is not an "innocent until proven guilty" kind of guy. (!) (As an aside, that's why I'= m convinced Voldemort would have killed both Harry and Neville if he hadn't lost his bo= dy that night. Good enough for King Herod, good enough for Voldemort.) Caesian: It may be true that the house is impervious even to those with prior knowl= edge - that it somehow, in an extension of being Unplottable, became Unknowable. Or, perh= aps there is some reason why it was not attacked yet - because of this plan to lure Harr= y to the DoM, perhaps. However, I now think that Grimmauld Place was never attacked because the D= Es might never have realized that anyone was at Grimmauld Place besides Kreacher and= Sirius. Dumbledore states: 'You see, Kreacher ... could not ... tell them any of th= e Order's confidential plans that he had been forbidden to reveal. He was bound by t= he enchantments of his kind, which is to say that he could not disobey a direc= t order from his master, Sirius.' The information he was able to provide was about Harry an= d Sirius's concern for one another, but did not directly indicate that Harry had ever = been physically present at Grimmauld Place: 'Like the fact that the person Sirius cared mo= st about in the world was you,' said Dumbledore quietly. 'Like the fact that you were comin= g to regard Sirius as a mixture of father and brother.' (OotP The Lost Prophecy 831 US = HB) So, maybe they haven't figured it out yet, and maybe they never will. Mayb= e, even if they do, the house is hidden and cannot be attacked. Therefore, while I *think*= they probably will and should be moving, it's also not perfectly clear that they must. I don't mean to vacillate, I just don't want to give the impression that s= omething is *known* when it may still be uncertain. The essential information - what e= xactly Kreacher did and did not reveal - is unknown to us. Was he previously ordered by Si= rius not to reveal that the Weasley's and Harry were coming after Arthur's attack (just= before he departed Grimmauld Place)? Was he prevented from giving any information on= visitors to the house? Was he prevented from repeating any conversations he may have o= verheard - such as Harry's description of Arthur's attack? Remember how Kreacher's foo= tsteps stopped outside the kitchen to listen just before he left the house the fir= st time? Jim Ferrer continues: The need for secrecy for the Order is mostly over now, anyway. Fudge's obs= truction doesn't matter anymore and everyone now knows who the enemy really is. The = Order's headquarters can be Hogwarts now without much need for deception. They shou= ld be at Hogwarts now, for their single most important mission now is the protection= of Harry Potter. The identities of the members should be kept as quiet as possible t= o protect them and their families, although some will be inevitably outed and must go unde= rground. Pippin adds: All that said, I agree that Grimmauld Place has probably outlived its usef= ulness, for literary if not practical reasons. But as a Safe House, a place where peopl= e who are not supposed to be associated with the Order or each other can safely meet, Hog= warts would be just as bad as Grimmauld Place. I think we will find out instead where D= umbledore went in the interval that he was absent from Hogwarts in Book Five. I disagree that the Order's main task in Book Six will be to protect Harry.= Harry is the person who *least* needs protection from Voldemort. The Order's task will b= e to expose Voldemort's agents and unite the wizarding world. Caesian replies: I also doubt the Order will come to Hogwarts, if only because it would be v= ery dangerous for the non-combatant children who attend the school. I also doubt Dumbled= ore was *hiding* when he was away: OotP The Centaur and the Sneak 622 US HB 'Where will you go, Dumbledore?' whispered Professor McGonagall. 'Grimmaul= d Place?' 'Oh no,' said Dumbledore with a grim smile. 'I am not leaving to go into h= iding. Fudge will soon wish he'd never dislodged me from Hogwarts, I promise you...' OotP O.W.L.S. 711 'Now, I haven't heard from Dumbledore lately!' she [Madam Marchbanks] adde= d, peering around the hall as though hopeful he might suddenly emerge from a broom cup= board. 'No idea where he is, I suppose?' 'None at all,' said Umbridge ... 'But I daresay the Ministry of Magic will= track him down soon enough ...' 'I doubt it,' shouted tiny Professor Marchbanks,' not if Dumbledore doesn'= t want to be found!' OotP Out of the Fire 748 'Dumbledore?' said Umbridge eagerly. 'You know where Dumbledore is then?' 'Well ... no!' sobbed Hermione. 'We've tried the Leaky Cauldron in Diagon = Alley and the Three Broomsticks and even the Hog's Head -' 'Idiot girl, Dumbledore won't be sitting in a pub when the whole Ministry's= looking for him!' shouted Umbridge, disappointment etched in every sagging line of her= face. So, It's probably safe to say he was either in the broom cupboard, or the = Hog's Head. ;) And, obscure jokes about Snape's nursery aside, I really hope that the new = location introduced in Book 6 will be Godric's Hollow. Caesian From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 7 17:23:35 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 17:23:35 -0000 Subject: Janus Thickey and his Ward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97860 Entropy wrote: > Some random thoughts on St. Mungo's and the Janus Thickey Ward: > > 1. I've always thought that "Janus" was pronounced with a soft "a" as > in "cat". After looking up the pronunciation, though, I found that it > is actually pronounced with a hard "a" as in "date". Read this way, > Janus Thickey now sounds like the clue: "Jane Is The Key". Jane? > Umbridge? Hermione? > Potioncat with some random thoughts of her own. Jane is the key? Jane looks like a toad. Trevor is a toad. Janus was two faced. Gilderoy was two faced. Agnes has a second face. Potioncat From rredordead at aol.com Fri May 7 17:25:15 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 17:25:15 -0000 Subject: International Standards (was: OWL EXAM CALCULATIONS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97861 > Potioncat > Why do you think, if there is only one school in England, that they > bother with these tests? It seems a very modern, Muggle thing to do. > Mandy here: I think the answer is a simple one. The WW has exams similar to the muggle worlds to make the story more assessable to us readers in the UK who have been through a similar experience. We're able to understand the Trio's position in dealing with their Owls. Because every child in Britain has gone thought that experience with their O levels. Or at least, did. I think I was one of the last years to sit O Levels. The huge importance that is placed on the exams, the stress of waiting for the results to arrive on your door step, on the exact same day as every other child in the country! So there was no intercepting the letter and hiding it! And finally the utter shame at failing any of them. Which was my unfortunate experience. Of course as an adult I now realize how completely unimportant it all really was, but back then when I was 15, it was hell! I am willing to bet JRK will have the trio anxiously waiting for the Owl results to arrive from the Ministry. Although Harry may be a little preoccupied with the other, greater problems he has, but I bet we'll see Ron get yelled at by a disappointed Molly and Hermione gloating over the God knows how many Owls she'll have! I get depressed just thinking about that year at school. Cheers Mandy From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 7 17:34:10 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 17:34:10 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophesy - the Other's not alive yet. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97862 Del wrote: Then we'llsee Harry having to kill a baby or die: does this remind you of something? Obviously it reminds me of Voldemort's willingness to kill a baby, but it also reminded me of the fight in the Department of Mysteries (Beyond the Veil P.697) "The Death Eater had pulled his head out of the bell jar. His appearance was utterly bizarre, his tiny baby's head bawling loudly while his thick arms flailed dangerously in all directions, narrowly missing Harry, who had ducked. Harry raised his wand but to his amazement Hermione seized his arm. 'You can't hurt a baby!' There was no ti me to argue the point...." Admitted it wasn't a real baby and I don't know what Harry would have done it Hermione hadn't stopped him, but he DID raise his wand.... Sylvia (who doesn't really think Harry is capable of killing a whole baby) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 7 19:41:29 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 19:41:29 -0000 Subject: Can... M$^blood be.. pureblood? Aristocrat vs Commoner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > > Cindy now: > > > > I... equated the mudblood debate with the slavery ..... When ..., > > there were a number of rules to determine who was Black .... The > > ...the Descent Rule, which said any offspring from a mixed union > > were to be considered Black, .... ...later clarified with the One > > Drop Rule, which said if your blood was 1/32 Black, you were ... > > Black. > > Potioncat: > Yes, that's my closest association as well. But it seems to me that > the WW isn't as strict in their interpretation. They seem pretty > accepting of a child of a witch and wizard, without looking too > closely beyond that. Although how close someone would look might > depend on what the association was to be and who was doing > the "judging." Given the longevity in the WW, you'd think there > would be an old Auntie or a great-great who would remember that so- > and-so's ancester was a Muggle. > > Potioncat bboy_mn: Since we have several people here from Great Britian, and others who are knowledgable in British culture, perhaps it would be beneficial to examine the difference between an Aristocrat and a Commoner. To some extent that seems closer to the difference between a Pureblood and a Muggle; sort of a 'Royal' and the rest attitude. Although, I suspect there will be some debate as to which was worse, prejudice toward Commoners or prejudice toward Slaves. Slavery was certainly no picnic, but not every slave holder matches the Hollywood movie model; and we certainly know the the Royal class commited outrageous atrocities which rarely stayed 'on the farm', and most frequently spilled over into other countries. I lean on this because to my American way of thinking, Aristocracy is as grey and poorly defind as 'Pureblood'. Is it just money and power, ties to the government or ruling class, or the Manor to which you are born? I believe that there is or was someone in this group who claimed to be 3,000th in-line for the Throne of Britain, so would they be Aristocracy or Commoner? Just curious, and wondered if any would like to expand this perspective. bboy_mn From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri May 7 20:44:32 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 20:44:32 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97865 vmonte wrote : The neither can live part may mean: neither will have peace until Voldemort dies. Del replies : That can be said about MANY people. Pretty much everyone in fact. vmonte wrote : Harry or Dumbledore must die at the hand of Voldemort for neither can live while Voldemort survives... Dumbledore will sacrifice himself for the cause. Del replies : Or Lupin. Or Snape. Or any of the Weasleys. Or Neville. Or... _____________________________________________________________ vmonte replies to Del: No kidding?! We are all taking guesses here, right? I'm not saying that I know I'm right. I'm going along with the people on this thread making predictions. But get nasty if you like... From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 7 14:33:36 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:33:36 -0000 Subject: Grandparents redux (was Re: What am I missing?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I don't know if I'm looking at details that aren't important to > JKR. But If I'm correct, when does someone stop being "known" > family. What's the chance that DD is Ron's multi-great grandfather? I think he could very well be. 50 years ago, DD's hair was Auburn (while Tom Riddle lies a lot, I doubt he'd see need to mangle that detail). His female descendant married a Weasley at some point... Even Molly could be that direct descendant. (we do know he's Sirius' cousin by marriage and that Arthur is Sirius' second cousin, and that Tonks is Sirius' cousin, too - although, so are Narcissa Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange!) And, considering all the intermarriages, wizards not of Muggle parentage are all interrelated! I think it is safe to say Albus Dumbledore IS a relative to the Weasleys. And just think of Albus: his password is always a kind of sweet, he'd love to hold a pair of thick socks (but everyone insists on giving him books)... I mean, really -sweet grandfather is what I see in him! But grandparents in general - well, duh - I doubt that teenage kids speak about their grandparents with each other (unless the grandparents are acting guardians, like Neville's grandmother). And Harry's grandparents (and most of his other relatives as well) are dead. We didn't even hear them mentioned until 5th book (considering Sirius camped in their house for a year, and they sort of adopted him... with James.) Maybe Harry will find a letter telling him of that, or maybe Sirius had a diary he'll find in Vault 711, or maybe he'll find something from Potter Vault, or maybe he'll recieve a note from Gringotts upon turning 16 or 17... -- Finwitch From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 7 15:26:37 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:26:37 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97867 --- > Jen Snyder wrote: > > > > What if "the other" is another person? > > > > Then the phrase could be interpreted as either Harry or Voldemort > > must die at the the hand of The Other (another > > person/being/force), because neither one of them can live if this > > other person/being/force is alive. > > Del replies : > Why not, but then I'd like to point out that this Other must > necessarily be not alive right now. Let's see : > > -the most obvious solution is that this Other is a baby to be born > soon. Then we'll see Harry having to kill a baby or die : does that > remind you of something ? Susan (me): Or, perhaps the OTHER just needs to turn 11 and find out he's a wizard, like Harry, like Tom. Now Tom may/not have known he was a wizard before he went to Hogwarts, but 11 is when you start to learn, and when you're allowed to begin practicing magic (supervised). Del: > - the Other could be some kind of reincarnate or ressuscitated > being. The possibilities are endless, starting with Salazar > Slytherin for example. > > But what's for sure anyway is that this Other cannot be someone > currently alive or the Prophecy doesn't get any clearer than in the > Harry vs. LV version. K, so can I please still believe that Sirius isn't lost to us forever? Anyway I can work him in, I will ;-) Susan (padfoot lover!) From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 7 15:33:39 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:33:39 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > In every story with a prophecy there is a surprise. It comes true, > but not in the expected way... in spite of efforts to change it > unexpected events lead to its fulfilment. Or when actions are taken > in confidence because of it, the outcome isn't the desired one but > still fit the prophecy. > > So I'm waiting for the surprise. Finwitch: It is common, all right... A prophecy made about a poor kid becoming rich/famous/powerful leads to an act of someone trying to prevent it. Always, that prevention will *cause* the fulfillment. (and the preventor will ussually suffer) And for those who act FOR the prophecy (being wise enough not to make attempt to stop it) there's always a surprise. The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies to those who have thrice defied him. The Dark Lord will mark him as his equal but he shall have a power the Dark lord knows not... Either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... Now, I don't think it'd be wise to trust this at all, as I think it was fulfilled already. We can(and have) interpreted what the first part means. Harry as identified. He already HAS vanquished the Dark Lord several times. What happened after the event - Voldemort was vanguished, by a power he knew not (or he wouldn't have tried to kill Harry). And I dare say that Neither of them lived (though both survived). Voldemort as something lesser than a ghost - Harry hidden at Dursleys - I wouldn't call it exactly LIVING. Either must die at the hand of the other.. (wasn't that exactly what happend during Harry's first year? Harry's power in his hands happened! Quirrell DIED at Harry's hand) Or, we might say that Either Basilisk must die at the hand of the other parselmouth(Harry) for neither Ginny (nor Harry) can live while the other Dark Lord (16-year- old memory Riddle in comparison to Voldemort-thing in Albania) survives. It may well have HAPPENED already! Third year, well, that was the OTHER prophecy! Fifth year: Or, it could even be: Either this Prophecy must die (be destroyed) at the hand of the other child (Neville) or neither child can live while the other (this prophecy in another place, a.ka DD's memory) survives. In other words, Neville, by destroying that OTHER prophecy at his hand, HE saved everyone and fulfilled the prophecy! (and I do think that FOR was a misheard OR - because that either seems silly without an OR!) So um... I don't think this prophecy-thing counts for much! It's DONE. --Finwitch From jasonlava at yahoo.com Fri May 7 16:23:57 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 16:23:57 -0000 Subject: FILK: Magic's All Around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > And I sure don't know if I'll will come back living ACK! Sorry about that. That line should read: And I sure don't know if I will come back living Jason From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 7 17:51:11 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 17:51:11 -0000 Subject: teeth and eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97870 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > > Being nearsighted, and knowing how Hermione fixes her teeth without > the help of her dentist parents, I've often wondered why HP, or any > other wizard, would need glasses. Wouldn't that be great if all us > blind folks could just repair our failing eyesight with the touch of > a wand and a quick incantation? Finwitch: No. I doubt they can do that. Hermione's "fix" - well, it was the counter-charm against an engorgio charm (say, little less _bone_ than she started with). Tooth is a very simple part of body - if not the simplest. That was about the overall size of her teeth, so it's SIMPLE enough. I need glasses, too - ones that need regular changing... Eyes are different. For one thing, their development in the fetus is closely linked with the development of the brain. The nearsightedness is much more complex. It has to do with the structure of the Eye in total, including loads of little details... nah, glasses are much easier (and since it's corrected, why bother with more?)... Anyway, they can grow bone and muscle, but I have yet to see them reparing a nerve/mental case. Memory Charms they can cast, causing amnesia, but I don't see them finding a cure on that, either. Nor with Frank and Alice Longbottom... However, they DO have excellent protesis for a lost eye - you get 360 vision with ability to see trough objects as you please! (Though I'm sure no one is going to sacrifice an eye just for that...) However, the clubfoot of Moody's... can't he get a better protesis (even Muggles have ones that look like real legs), or does he have some sort of (paranoid as he is) reason for the clubfoot? --Finwitch From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Fri May 7 19:27:22 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 19:27:22 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Army (DA) In-Reply-To: <20040507030225.27938.qmail@web13522.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me wrote: > > I agree. I think DD wants as many students to learn > about DADA in order to ensure he has a bunch of > students ready to fight and defend themselves against > DE and LV. DD knew that LV would rise again, and he > wants to do everything to ensure that the students are > protected. > > Since many of the kids dislike Snape, they also have > an inderect displaced dislike of potions too. It > wouldn't be wise to put Snape as DADA teacher because > the kids may not be willing to learn and work as hard > as they would, say, for a teacher they liked and > respected (i.e. Lupin) > > Demetra: I can't argue with your statement that many of the kids dislike Snape (Slytherins aside). However, whether they like potions or not, it appears that they are learning. In OOTP it is stated that Snape's students have a very high pass rate on their OWL's (sorry, don't have my book at work so can't cite the chapter/page). It seems to me that like him or not, his students know the subject. Demetra From snapesmate at hotmail.com Fri May 7 21:48:47 2004 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 21:48:47 -0000 Subject: questions on FBAWTFT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97872 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "khilari2000" wrote: > > Lara: > > > > > > Question # 4: > > > I think Our Dear Severus was trying to find something wrong with > > > what Luin gave as information. He might just say that to say > > > something to the contrary of what Lupin said. It could be that > > > Kappas also "went to" Mongolia, like Fries, which are Belgian > > > originally, but can be found everywhere in many different countries. > > > (not that good of an analogy, but the best I could come up with). > > Carol: > It's possible that it's JKR who made the mistake. > > Carol I tried to find the original post but couldn't so I am not sure if this was mentioned or not... In the book "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them" Kappas are mentioned as being from Japan and there is a notation "written in" that says "Snape hasn't read this either". These natations are to be viewed as being written by Harry or Ron. I am not sure if this was JKR's way of smoothing out a wrinkle or if she was just showing that different teachers explain things differently. I do think JKR knows these stories better than any of us and she does pay close attention to detail. There are some things that she has referred to in interviews... things that she felt the readers would just assume, things she didn't think she needed to specifically clarify for us. ::shrugs:: I like to look at it as Snape is not as perfect (knowledge wise) as he would like the students to think he is. Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice guy! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults From snapesmate at hotmail.com Fri May 7 22:45:01 2004 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 22:45:01 -0000 Subject: The night of Godric's Hollow--quick correction (Was: DD: an appreciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97873 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > I wrote: > > Or Dumbledore, who had known where they were before the spell was > > placed but had fogotten once Peter had been made Secret Keeper > > suddenly remembered the address again--and knew the spell had been > > broken. Sirius would have found > > out in the same way as Dumbledore, suddenly remembering the address > > that had been wiped from his memory. C. The Fidelius charm would not wipe the location from their memories... it would prevent them from being able to find the Potters. That is why "Voldemort could have had his nose pressed against their window and not been able to find them" (paraphrased) My question is how could Hagrid have found the house> Did the Potters' deaths cancel the Fidelius charm? At forst I thought the charm had been placed on the house, but thinking about the Voldemort quote, it must have been placed on THEM not the house... ::shrugs:: Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice guy! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults From snapesmate at hotmail.com Fri May 7 22:53:25 2004 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 22:53:25 -0000 Subject: 3Q's for ESE!Lupin(now Like Me Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97874 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > Susan(me): > Where did the idea that Remus needs to be liked come from? I could > see someone describing PP like this, but not Lupin. I beleive the idea came from Lupin himself. In OotP, when Harry asks him and Sirius about the scene he viewed in the pensieve where James and Sirius are bullying Snape and Remus just sits there reading his book. I do not remember the exact quote, but to paraphrase, he says he didn't say anything because he did not want to rock the friendship boat. He didn't salivate over Sirius and James, as ratboy did, but he often looked the ither way as prefect when James and Sirius were doing their bullying. Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice guy! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults From jasnyder at intrex.net Fri May 7 23:08:52 2004 From: jasnyder at intrex.net (Jen Snyder) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 19:08:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A thought about the prophecy - Likely Candidates. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97875 < You theory does have some interesting aspect to it, and I admit I find < myself intrigued, but for the life of me, I can't think of who this < third party OTHER would be in your scenerio. Dementors maybe? Well, I think it's possible that it's someone or something that we haven't met yet, or have seen briefly but haven't fully understood the significance of, since, for the phrase to stop bothering me, The Other has to not be alive yet...either he/she/it isn't born yet, or maybe hasn't been created yet, or is in an non-alive state like Voldy prior to GoF. I find myself thinking of that scene in OotP, after Harry has had the vision of Arthur being attacked by Nagini, where Dumbledore consults one of his instruments which emits a green smoky snake. Dumbledore says, "Naturally, naturally...but in essence divided?". This has always puzzled me. Maybe Harry, or Voldemort, has a divided essence, and The Other will come to be the embodiment of that essence...or something like that? I admit I've not got a good answer to "Who is The Other?"...but I know how JKR loves to throw out red herrings and phrase things so that just when you are sure you have figured it out and you know what is going to happen, you find out you were completely wrong... Jen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bunclaa at btconnect.com Fri May 7 21:36:19 2004 From: bunclaa at btconnect.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 22:36:19 +0100 Subject: Book 7 predictions Message-ID: <000801c4347b$58f6af40$ca6b8651@musiccor6gid8x> No: HPFGUIDX 97876 >Snip from dumbledore11214?Fri May 7, 2004 3:18 am? >If we are to go along with Biblical parallels, then someone who >supposedly made a sacrifice for the Light will have to come back Is it possible that Sirius, who died protecting Harry, would be resurrected as he also was imprisoned thru, protecting, albeit badly, Lily and James. It is also interesting about the veil and the veil in the temple was ripped when Jesus dies. The veil, I believe and am open to correction, rippled when Sirius dies. Ripped rippled?.quite similar. Just a thought Regards Chris ><)))'> HYPERLINK "http://www.musiccorner.co.uk/"http://www.musiccorner.co.uk/chris.html From dallas at loanleaders.com Fri May 7 21:36:59 2004 From: dallas at loanleaders.com (dobbyisdumbledore) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 21:36:59 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97877 Hi there, In regards to "the other" being someone that has to be defeated "other" than Tom Riddle and Harry, it would go along with something I have long thought. I have long thought (and have seen it discussed before this) that Voldemort was nothing more than the longest line of Salazar Slytherin Possessing dark wizards through the ages. The last dark Wizard of note (before Voldemort) was in the mid 1940s named Grindlewald (Sp). He was defeated by none other than Albus Dumbledore. Right around this same time, Tom Riddle was becoming Voldemort. How difficult is it (then) to rationalze that with seeing Voldemort possess snakes, Quirrell and even Harry himself that he didn't take over a (very willing) Tom Riddle? Even the Tom Riddle in COS speaks of "voldemort" in the third person. Maybe that is because it is a third person (so to speak). Grundlewald (Hitler as some would point out) was just that generations Voldemort and the latest in a line of "vessels" holding the spirit of Salazar Slytherin. Why would Voldemort (as Tom Riddle) be as adament about "pure blood" ancestry (when he wasn't one himself) as Slytherin? "Tom" was used as a goading device by Dumbledore in the MOM. A means to enrage Voldemort. Not necessairly One can further the theroy and suggest that Albus Dumbledore is just the latest vessel of Godric G. The two waging a battle from century to century using different instruments (people) along the way to fight those battles. The secret may lie somewhere in the blood of Slytherin and Godric (Thus Dumbledore's gleam in his eyes of triumph when Harry relays the ritual in GOF) Harry is very similar to Tom, Both mud bloods, both orphans, we already know that they are connected... In as such it may very well be Harry and Tom that must defeat Salizar Slytherin (via defeating Voldemort). "dobbyisdumbledore" From squeakinby at tds.net Sat May 8 00:31:34 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 19:31:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A thought about the prophecy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <409C2A66.6040106@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97878 dobbyisdumbledore wrote: > How difficult is it (then) to rationalze that with seeing Voldemort > possess snakes, Quirrell and even Harry himself that he didn't take > over a (very willing) Tom Riddle? Even the Tom Riddle in COS speaks > of "voldemort" in the third person. Maybe that is because it is a > third person (so to speak). This is so interesting. But what does it do to the "It's our choices that make us what we are, Harry" (sorry to paraphrase) very pointed lecture Dumbledore gave. If "everyone" is possessed by someone else, then they/we really don't have free will. I think JKR is telling us that our lives are for us to live fully and in service to others so if you're possessed, you're not responsible for your actions. Would she say that? Jem From jferer at yahoo.com Fri May 7 23:52:40 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 23:52:40 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: <005401c43450$8bd77dc0$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97879 Jim Ferer: (me):"The vision I get is Harry somehow giving up his magical ability in order to take away Voldemort's ability; the ultimate destiny of their magical and blood links." Cindy: "Jim, I think that's a great theory, but I do hope you're wrong. I'd hate to see Harry lose his wizarding abilities. That would be too cruel. :(" It's not a theory yet, not until we get something more to back it up, but it doesn't contradict anything we know, and if it's true could explain a couple of things. It makes sense from a literary standpoint. Would you give up the most precious thing you have to save others? I'm suggesting that, to Harry, giving up his magic is more than giving up his life. Dumbledore tells him death is the next great adventure; Sirius is waiting there, behind the veil; and Luna is serene about death. Yes, it's cruel, horribly cruel, but I've always believed Harry would pay a high price. But I hope there is healing for him afterwards. Cindy: "Pippin, I don't think all of Harry's abilities could have come from Voldemort. He is an excellent flier, just like his father. And his Patronus is a stag, the animal his father transformed into. I'm not saying he didn't get any abilities from Lily, but we've seen at least two that in all likelihood came from James. I imagine if all of his talents came from Voldemort, his patronus would be very, very different." An excellent case for Harry owning most of his own talent, more believable in that he's the son of talented wizards. We don't know much about Lily's magical strengths, do we, except that she was an excellent student (Head Girl) and therefore probably quite talented. We know his Parseltongue came from Voldemort; what else came from him, we'll probably find out. Jim Ferer From dk59us at yahoo.com Sat May 8 01:32:10 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 01:32:10 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97880 "dobbyisdumbledore wrote: > How difficult is it (then) to rationalze that with seeing Voldemort > possess snakes, Quirrell and even Harry himself that he didn't take > over a (very willing) Tom Riddle? > In as such it may very well be Harry and Tom that must defeat Salizar > Slytherin (via defeating Voldemort). > > "dobbyisdumbledore" Eustace_Scrubb: An interesting possibility...however, we'd have to see what would make Tom Riddle, who was apparently very willing to be Slytherin's vessel, change his mind and join forces with Harry? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Sat May 8 01:57:49 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 01:57:49 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: <005401c43450$8bd77dc0$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97881 > Pippin replied: > >Yeah, that's what I've been saying too. And I've thought of a > >way it could happen. We know that some of Harry's magical abilities > >came from Voldemort. Suppose they all did? Suppose it's Harry, not > >Neville, who was the natural-born squib. So when Voldemort finally > >dies, Harry's powers vanish forever. > Kristen here: Not to take away from your theory here, but what makes you think that Neville is a natural born squib? In book 5 it seems that with some good teaching, his magical skills are actually pretty good - definitely improving with his self confidence. Kristen From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 01:34:12 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 18:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: James or Lilly killed first? In-Reply-To: <1083822383.4068.97075.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040508013412.84673.qmail@web13527.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97883 Message: 16 Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 17:34:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Santangelo Subject: Re: James or Lilly killed first? I'm sure this has been covered, but please refresh my recollection. I thought that James was killed by LV first, then Voldie went to AK Harry, but Lilly got in the way and then he killed her. But in GOF, James comes out of LV's wand first, then Lilly. What's up with that? Owlery2003 Mo: You must be new to this list and to the HP sites. The problem was a direct error and has been corrected in more current editions of the book. ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 02:44:47 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 02:44:47 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > So um... I don't think this prophecy-thing counts for much! It's DONE. > > --Finwitch I tend to agree that it may not count for much. Although I am not sure whether it is fulfilled already or whether it will simply not come to be true. I know I brought up Fiorenze's lesson earlier, but I keep thinking about it - nothing in the human knowledge is fool-proof. I do believe that this could be a foreshadowing of the fact that prophecy is LESS important than Dumbledore believes it to be. Alla From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sat May 8 04:17:18 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 04:17:18 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97885 I recall reading several posts about this in the past but could not find the ones I remembered. It is about a small thing JKR mentioned was in the movie and the book because it had plot value. Many speculated it was the hand of glory, which made a lot of sense. I just watched the movie again with my 3 year old son and noticed two things I had not noticed before and wondered if they were in canon. If so, I'd like to add these to the list of speculation. First, when Dobby meets Harry in Privet Drive, Harry hides him in the closet when Uncle Vernon comes upstairs. When Dobby walks out of the wardrobe, he has one of Harry's socks on his ear that he simply discards. Knowing JKR and socks, I thought that was interesting. Second, in the Chamber, I noticed Tom's robe had the Hogwart's crest, not the Slytherin crest. I thought that was interesting given the "Small thing" is supposed to have predictive value. Couple that with the speculation of combining the Houses makes me wonder just which sides will combine them? I always thought it would be to fight against LV (and I still do) but his robe threw a kink in my thought. So, I wanted to offer this as perhaps of getting this thread going again to see if the Hand has the consensus vote or what other speculations there may be. Julie --who has the opening of POA programmed on my PDA From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 04:21:49 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 04:21:49 -0000 Subject: But Why does it Have to be Lupin? (was:Kreacher, Buckbeak ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97886 Erin wrote: There are an awful lot of Weasleys in the Order, and yet not one of them makes it to the Ministry? What are the odds? Surely at least one of them had to have been purposely "unavailable" so as not to have to fight his Death Eater friends? Although agreeing with both Pippin and Erin at it looks a little odd, one reason why there are no Weasleys helping out in the MOM could be to protect the Weasley's from Fudge. I don't have the book to hand, but remember Arthur I think saying that Fudge had effectively said that anyone helping Dumbledore, should clear out their desk and leave. Fudge knows Arthur is friends with Dumbledore and it would be a little to suspicious if one of the Weasleys happened to be at the MOM, to rescue Harry and co, especially as they are easy to identify, and things would become difficult, if Arthur loses his job with Ron and Ginny still in School. Carol: I don't think Arthur chose to stay away from the MoM. He simply wasn't at Grimmauld Place when Snape informed Sirius and the others that Harry needed to be rescued. Everyone who was present (Tonks, Mad-eye, Lupin, Shacklebolt, and Sirius himself, despite Snape's advice) showed up for the battle. None of the Weasleys was at headquarters at the time, for whatever reason. No doubt Charlie and Bill were occupied elsewhere (IIRC, Charlie is still in Romania), but it's not clear why Arthur and Molly weren't at headquarters. Maybe they were living at home again and there was no time to contact them. Or maybe, considering that Arthur had already been injured in the line of duty at the MoM, the other Order members chose not to notify him. It had been only about five months since his recovery, after all. And you're right about the danger to his job as well. Best to keep the Weasleys out of this one. Carol, who thinks Arthur was sleeping (with molly) after a hard day at the MoM and Bill was helping Fleur "eemprove her Eenglish" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 04:58:17 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 04:58:17 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97887 Rob wrote: > > I agree that his father's abandonment and not knowing his mother was a catalyst that started him on his way, but how did he aquire so much information on the dark arts. If you can recall, all of these types of books are in the restricted section of the Hogwarts Library. I agree that while at the orphanage he was growing eveer more resentful of non-wizard people, but he must have had guidence to push him over the edge. This is why I feel that at the time Tom had attended school he was taught all of the dark arts by a teacher, a teacher with a hidden agenda. My theory is that Grindelwald is that mentor. I know you may say you have seen this theory before, but that is probably because I have brought it up a few times without recieving any responses. > If Grindelwald was a teacher then it would explain how Tom had access to all of the necessary materials to make him evil. Putting your teenage self in a diary seems like very complicated magic even for a prodigy. This would also explain why Tom is afraid of DD, because DD defeated his master. If you have any thoughts to strengthen or weaken this theory please post it. Carol: I don't think that Grindelwald was a teacher or we would know it. I think he was out in the world doing evil things--exactly what I have no idea, though of course I'm aware of the timing of his defeat coinciding with the end of Muggle War II. I've already stated my ideas on his hatred for Muggles/"Mudbloods." Combine that with an awareness of his own power and intelligence (which he would have developed at an early age), the ease with which he mastered all the spells and potions, his ability to charm people, most of all his sense that his rare ability to speak Parseltongue made him special, which led to a quest at some early point to become the heir of Slytherin--Given all that, I don't think it's all that surprising that he could do complicated magic at sixteen, whether or not he was the pupil of Grindelwald. It's somewhat more astounding that he would commit murder, however strong his hatred of his father and Muggles/Muggle-borns in general. Possibly Salazar Slytherin's theories of wizard superiority (and perhaps an awareness of past persecutions of wizards by Muggles) justified it all for him. I suppose it's possible that he went looking for a mentor and found Grindelwald, who taught him to cast Avada Kedavra over the summer holiday, but given his resentment of the confinements of the Muggle orphanage, I rather doubt it. In any case, I think that he had the resources *within himself* to convince a gullible teacher, or even the dim-witted headmaster (Dibble?), to allow him access to the restricted section of the library. (Remember how easily Hermione did it by taking advantage of Lockhart's vanity?) He could easily have researched the Chamber of Secrets and basilisks and the Dark Magic necessary to create the diary, all the time acting the role of model student. And his prefect privileges would have allowed him to wander the halls without being questioned--unless you count the brief encounter with Dumbledore, which, alas, was ineffectual. Once he had determined to set the Basilisk loose on the Muggle-borns, and particularly after it had actually killed one, he was probably on a path with no return--one that he deliberately solidified by writing the diary and preserving his still charming but undeniably evil self within it. And when he *chose*--despite being only sixteen or seventeen, to AK his father and grandparents, he had to all intents and purposes become Lord Voldemort. Carol, who thinks that a fifteen- or sixteen-year-old knows perfectly well what murder is and that Tom, like Milton's Satan, knowingly chose to do--and become--evil: "Evil, be thou my good." Carol From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Sat May 8 04:13:47 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 04:13:47 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97888 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > "dobbyisdumbledore wrote: > > In as such it may very well be Harry and Tom that must defeat Salizar > > Slytherin (via defeating Voldemort). > what would make > Tom Riddle, who was apparently very willing to be Slytherin's vessel, > change his mind and join forces with Harry? I have to point out that this reminds me of the alchemy ending posed on thinkpotter.com-- that the seventh step is combinining/merging, and that JKR made her the 'heart of it all' comment right after someone asked about unlikely pairings, so that the gist is that the end product is some kind of meld of Harry/Tom. (You can look this up on the thinkpotter.com site, and for more on alchemy, see John Granger's _Hidden Key to HP_- a good r/h point about sulfur/mercury!) aj From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 05:33:32 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 05:33:32 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97889 Mandy wrote: The only DE we know about in Hogwarts is Snape and he's not going aywhere if DD has his way. The WW will be watching closing though, especially those parents who remember the last war and the accusations made against Snape.(If indeed those accusations were pubilc.) Snape is undoubtidy in a dangerous position from every corner of this Second War. It doesen't look good for our man Snape. Potioncat responded: Very good points about Snape. I was actually wondering though, how the Slytherin students joining the DE's would affect the teachers. Particularly if they end up facing each other in the fighting. Carol: I don't think that the WW in general knows that Snape was charged with being a DE, and those who do know (if they're still alive) know that he was cleared. I think his biggest problem, at least while school is in session, will be dealing with the Slytherins--somehow keeping them in control and cooling their ardor for revenge without giving away his own loyalty to Dumbledore. Interesting times ahead for our Sevvy--whom we know will survive into Book 7, at least--and then it will be LV and the DEs, not the WW, that will place him in danger. Unless, of course, Dumbledore is wrong about him, and I don't think that's the case. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 05:51:28 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 05:51:28 -0000 Subject: Weapons of Mass Destruction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97890 probono wrote: > Just curious. At the beginning of OotP we learn Voldy is desperately > searching for some all-powerful weapon; something he didn't have the > last time he was in power. This weapon is one of the major mysteries > in the book, and at the end DD explains the "weapon" Voldy was > seeking was actually the power to destroy Harry Potter. > > Two thoughts. > > First, during most of Voldy's first reign of terror, he had no idea > who HP was or why he would need to destroy him. So how can HP's > destruction really be considered a weapon that he lacked the first > time around? > > Second, although DD, the Order, and the MoM all took extreme pains > to guard this most important "weapon", once it is revealed in the > end, I don't see how this could be a weapon at all or how it was > suppose to help Voldy destroy Harry in the first place. It just > doesn't seem worth the trouble or worth the loss of life and limb. > > Harry speculates at one point that this great weapon could actually > be him, but he dismisses the thought. Carol: IMO, Sirius is deliberately misleading Harry by using the word "weapon." Consequently the reader is also misled--just as we were in PoA when we were told by the Weasleys and virtually everyone else that Sirius was a murderer. And the Order members were taking great pains to keep Voldemort from acquiring the Prophecy because doing so delayed the "war" and kept him from striking before the other side was ready. Note what he *wasn't* doing--amassing armies of goblins, giants, dragons, and whatever other "weapons" he can get his hands on. Granted, he sent Macnair to the giants (or maybe Fudge did, at Malfoy's suggestion, not realizing that Macnair was a Death Eater), but he was too obsessed with the Prophecy to use the few giants who haven't killed each other. I don't think the Prophecy is a weapon--except in the sense that knowledge is power and Voldemort thinks he needs that knowledge. The word, IMO, is just another red herring. Never trust anything any character says, whether that character is Sirius or Mr. Weasley or Voldemort. Even Hermione can be wrong if she's not spouting facts she's read in books, and Dumbledore, wise mentor or not, deals in half truths and partial explanations as a matter of course. And, of course, we know not to trust Harry's perspective. The only one who knows less than he does about the WW (not counting the Dursleys) is the reader. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 06:04:38 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 06:04:38 -0000 Subject: Taking a character's word for it (Was: Weapons of Mass Destruction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97891 I (Carol) wrote: > Never trust anything any character says, whether that character is > Sirius or Mr. Weasley or Voldemort. Even Hermione can be wrong if > she's not spouting facts she's read in books, and Dumbledore, wise > mentor or not, deals in half truths and partial explanations as a > matter of course. And, of course, we know not to trust Harry's > perspective. The only one who knows less than he does about the WW > (not counting the Dursleys) is the reader. Carol again: On second thought, it would be more accurate to say that we should take whatever any reader says with a grain of salt. What do we know about that person's general reliability? What is his or her emotional state? How much would he or she be likely to know about this topic? Might the character be lying or guessing or simply mistaken? Might he or she have some reason for slightly distorting the truth, or for telling only part of it, both of which Sirius did in the "weapon" example? Obviously, if we don't believe anybody, including our unreliable narrator, we won't have any canon to support our theories and anything or nothing goes. We might as well call in the deconstructionsists. But I do think we need to weigh each piece of evidence. Just because it's in this book or any other doesn't mean it's true--a lesson I hope our Hermione will learn in Book 6 or 7. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 06:12:38 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 06:12:38 -0000 Subject: map and diary was Re: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97892 > Potioncat: > I've never thought of that comparison before: Marauders leaving map > that was found and used to Riddle leaving diary which was found and > used. In neither case did the owner choose who would get it and in > both cases they were called "dark arts" by a trusted (by us) wizard. > (Although Snape calling the map dark arts is generally considered to > be a diversion.) > > Of course, the map was taken from the Marauders, but do we know how > Lucius got the diary? Carol: It was in a drawer in Filch's office labeled "confiscated and highly dangerous" that young Lucius opened while he was in detention? Carol, who hopes this little joke won't become quasi-canonical like Severus's imaginary twins! From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat May 8 06:51:00 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 06:51:00 -0000 Subject: Taking a character's word for it (Was: Weapons of Mass Destruction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Carol again: > Obviously, if we don't believe anybody, including our unreliable > narrator, we won't have any canon to support our theories and anything > or nothing goes. We might as well call in the deconstructionsists. But > I do think we need to weigh each piece of evidence. Just because it's > in this book or any other doesn't mean it's true--a lesson I hope our > Hermione will learn in Book 6 or 7. Geoff: But, as I pointed out in message 97816, we've got to accept what people say until or unless it is shown to be wrong otherwise life just doesn't move forward. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 07:12:11 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 07:12:11 -0000 Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97894 Kneasy wrote: > I'm still of the opinion that Voldy is more than Tom Riddle gone bad. Voldy is Tom plus something else, the most likely source of which is the Chamber. Before his excursions to the nether regions he'd probably been a not very nice, bitter and resentful teenager, but still a brilliant scholar. After entering the Chamber things change. Why change his name? Why this lust for power? Why this determination to eliminate mudbloods from Hogwarts when he was one himself? Carol: Both as Diary!Tom and as Voldemort, he makes what to me (and evidently to you, as well) is a rather odd distinction between "mudbloods," who deserve nothing better than to be victims of a Basilisk, and "halfbloods" like himself and Harry, whose Muggleborn mother Tom refers to as "your Muggle mother." That view of Lily may help to explain why he didn't consider her a threat at Godric's Hollow. Harry, on the other hand, is, as DD puts it, "a halfblood like himself." He chooses him over the pureblood Neville as the more likely threat and evidently considers him worthy enough as an adversary to pretend to follow the conventions of a duel. Maybe a halfblood is, in Tom/Voldemort's view, the best of both worlds, neither a Muggle like his hated father nor a pureblood like the mother who deserted him through death. He senses, maybe, that his own power is greater than hers must have been if she were so weak as to die in childbirth. Or maybe in his view halfbloods are wizards but Muggleborns are Muggles. To think otherwise is to include himself on the list of those who are unworthy and must die. Why change his name? Because he hates his Muggle father. The murders, IMO, came before the lust for power, spurred in part by a desire for revenge that spread from his father to all Muggles and Muggleborns (but not to halfbloods like himself)--killing them off as Salazar Slytherin apparently desired became a kind of quest and self-justification. But I'm not sure that we see the lust for power in young Tom--only a desire for revenge and self-aggrandizement (the new name hiding his Muggle origins and the "Lord" suggesting noble blood--cf. the Noble and Ancient House of Black). He may already have been hoping for followers at that point, but it was more important to get away from Britain in case he was suspected of those murders and search for immortality. Maybe the immortality motif ties in with opening the Chamber of Secrets, or maybe he came across the idea in his research on Dark Magic while he was trying to open the Chamber and became obsessed with the idea of defeating death. In any case, it was not power but immortality that he was seeking while he consorted with "the worst of our kind" and exposed himself to so many transformations that he lost any resemblance to the handsome boy he had once been. Where does lust for power come in? We don't see it (IMO) until his return to England after wandering all over Europe (and maybe elsewhere) for some fifteen years. He comes back, so changed that almost no one recognizes him, and recruits followers based on his pureblood doctrines, but then starts converting his followers to "Knights of Walpurgis" (Death Eaters) who perform the Unforgiveables (and who knows what else) in the name of that warped ideal. Maybe the desire for power grew as he realized what terrible things he could make them do. But I don't think it has anything to do with the Chamber of Secrets, at least not directly. IMO, Voldemort is an outgrowth of Tom Riddle, a natural (or unnatural) extension of his hatred of his father, his contempt for Muggles and Muggleborns, his view of himself as the heir of Slytherin, his early propensity for murder, and his lust for immortality. Through his own choices and actions, he has become a distorted, evil caricature of himself who is no longer fully human. And as far as I can see, there's no going back. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 07:38:29 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 07:38:29 -0000 Subject: The thing they would miss most In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97895 One of the Susans wrote: Actually, I noticed right away that all the people in the lake were people HP cared about. You might say, "But what about Gabrielle? He didn't even know her," but she's part Veela, whose very nature is the power of attraction, plus she's young, and clearly related to Fleur, whom HP does know. I also just thought it was odd that the 3 people HP cares about the most are there, plus we know the motivation for him saving the only person down there who's not connected to him in any way. Carol: Here's an odd and probably unhelpful thought that just occurred to me. Probably the people chosen were (with the exception of Gabrielle) those who were most readily available and for whom the affection was rather obvious. McGonagall wouldn't know about Harry's feelings for Cho, which he was trying desperately to hide, but Cedric's feelings for Cho were obvious to everybody--he walked hand in hand with her in the corridors at every opportunity and he took her to the Yule Ball. And Viktor took Hermione to the ball--she was the only person at Hogwarts in whom he had shown any interest, much less demonstrated any affection. Those two choices, IMO, were obvious and inevitable. In Harry's case, McGonagall would know who his best friends were, and probably knew that Harry at fourteen would rather save his best male friend than save Hermione and be teased about having her as his "girlfriend," and in any case, she was eliminated as a candidate for Harry's most valued person since she was already Krum's. And Ron really is the person Harry cares most about, as McGonagall probably knew. The only person who presents a problem is Fleur, who apparently wasn't particularly close to any of her Beauxbatons friends, and though she clearly liked Cedric, she could hardly rescue another champion in the second task. The other judges would have had to consult Madame Maxime as to whom, if anyone, Fleur had ever shown or expressed affection for. We have to assume that she talked frequently about Gabrielle and that Madame Maxime knew about their (presumably) mutual affection. In any case, it's hard to imagine Fleur with a close female friend her own age, or rescuing a Beauxbatons boy, who would probably be extremely embarrassed by the situation--then again, she's part Veela. Maybe he'd be honored! From a plot perspective, it makes sense to have an appealing and helpless little girl as the fourth hostage, someone Harry would want to rescue, but IMO it also suits Fleur's rather haughty personality and at the same time makes her a more sympathetic character. Carol From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sat May 8 07:56:08 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 07:56:08 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > > Gregory Lynn wrote: > > > Draco could be disillusioned by something he sees his father do. > > > > Marianne wrote: > > And, frankly, I can't see that anything Lucius could do, > including killing someone, that Draco couldn't rationalise to himself > as a necessary action. > > > Mandy here: > I can think of one person Lucius could kill that would alienate Draco; > and that his mother, Narcissa. imamommy: What about Voldemort killing Lucius? Draco seems to think his father very powerful, and on the smart side of things, what if LV decides he is displeased and disposes of Lucius? I can see that changing his mind, even if Daddy Dearest has remained evil and twisted his whole life. imamommy From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sat May 8 07:59:24 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 07:59:24 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor's Hat In-Reply-To: <96.a0db109.2dca7c6f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, LWalshETAL at a... wrote: > In every scene in which a student tries on the Sorting Hat, which > supposedly belonged to Godric Gryffindor before the original four > started using it to sort the new students, the hat slips down over > the student's eyes, indicating that it is too big for them. Why is it > so large? Adults' heads aren't significantly larger than the heads > of 11 year olds. As far as we know Gryffindor was a normal wizard, > i.e., he was not part giant, but why would his head be so extraordinarily > large? The original "Big-Head Boy"? > > Laura Walsh LWalshETAL at a... > > imamommy: Maybe it's still stretched out from sorting Hagrid. Tee-hee! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 08:10:03 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 08:10:03 -0000 Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97898 Miranda (who wonders what Snape would name his children if he did have some...) Siriusly Snapey Susan says: Why, something like SSSusan and SSSylvia, of course!! ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan [who's got a message for JustCarol--I got elected to the school board yesterday!] Yea! Congratulations! And to keep this on topic, how about Sirius and James? If they're boys, of course. (joking!) Actually, I think it's a boy and a girl--Albus and Florence, for the only two people he ever cared about. Carol, who wishes Snape really had twins, or rather that the twins were canonical From patientx3 at aol.com Sat May 8 08:18:40 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 08:18:40 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97899 Julie wrote: >>It is about a small thing JKR mentioned was in the movie and the book because it had plot value.<< HunterGreen: I think it was something about 'giving "it all" away' or something along those lines (not sure what interview it came from though). Julie continued: >>First, when Dobby meets Harry in Privet Drive, Harry hides him in the closet when Uncle Vernon comes upstairs. When Dobby walks out of the wardrobe, he has one of Harry's socks on his ear that he simply discards. Knowing JKR and socks, I thought that was interesting. Second, in the Chamber, I noticed Tom's robe had the Hogwart's crest, not the Slytherin crest. [snip] So, I wanted to offer this as perhaps of getting this thread going again to see if the Hand has the consensus vote or what other speculations there may be.<< HunterGreen: What about Hagrid being in Knockturn Alley? Not that I think there's any reason to be suscipcious of Hagrid (since he's the LEAST suscipsious of all the adult characters), but its rather odd that something as mundune as flesh-eating-slug repellent wouldn't be sold in Diagon Alley. (I've also always found it odd that Tom Riddle and Hagrid knew each other personally when they were several years apart and presumably in different houses, although Tom could just have seen him as an easy patsy). Of course, the more obvious important information in CoS is Voldemort transferring Harry some of his power and all the background information about him. From saitaina at frontiernet.net Sat May 8 08:26:09 2004 From: saitaina at frontiernet.net (Saitaina) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 01:26:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: small thing in COS References: Message-ID: <008801c434d6$1e744ac0$01fea8c0@domain.invalid> No: HPFGUIDX 97900 HunterGreen wrote: <(I've also always found it odd that Tom Riddle and Hagrid knew each other personally when they were several years apart and presumably in different houses, although Tom could just have seen him as an easy patsy).> I also find this odd though. For people from diffrent houses (presumably), and noticeably diffrent ages they call each other by first name with a familiarity that only friends or house-mates would have. It's quite a departure from the books so I'm wondering if this is a slip up of the screen writer (and later actors) or if this was an intentional thing. Just something that has stuck with me upon recent viewings. Saitaina **** Inside my mind that tiny little voice that tells me when I'm being stupid is flipping right out. You do not pin the princess of all of Hyrule up against a wall and threaten her. Unfortunately I have this awful habit of ignoring that little voice . . . http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From RACH911 at aol.com Sat May 8 08:39:41 2004 From: RACH911 at aol.com (rach9112000) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 08:39:41 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > Julie wrote: > >>It is about a small thing JKR mentioned > was in the movie and the book because it had plot value.<< > > HunterGreen: > I think it was something about 'giving "it all" away' or something > along those lines (not sure what interview it came from though). > Rachel: I've heard about the small thing that JKR mentioned too but would really like to read the interview first-hand. If anyone knows when and where she said this please could they let us know? Cheers, Rachel. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 08:54:57 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 08:54:57 -0000 Subject: James or Lilly killed first? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97902 > Owlery2003: > > I'm sure this has been covered, but please refresh my recollection. > I thought that James was killed by LV first, then Voldie went to AK > Harry, but Lilly got in the way and then he killed her. > > Geoff: > This has been corrected and has been acknowledged as a Flint I > believe. > LV killed Lily because she wouldn't stand aside and let him kill Harry. (She *wanted* to be killed, as we've discussed repeatedly in the self-sacrifice threads.) He couldn't have gotten to her if James were still alive and fighting to protect her and Harry. James had to have died first, presumably outside the house. The flint was the scene where James comes out of the wand first. Interesting that you have both versions! As I said in another post, there's another, smaller version of the flint still uncorrected in my Scholastic edition of GoF. When Harry is telling Sirius and Dumbldore about the events in the graveyard, his father is mentioned before his mother. I'd look up the page number, but it's 1:47 in the morning and besides, you have a different edition. Carol, who is not sleepy despite the hour and is going to have to take some Benadryl From patientx3 at aol.com Sat May 8 09:19:29 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 09:19:29 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS In-Reply-To: <008801c434d6$1e744ac0$01fea8c0@domain.invalid> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97903 Saitaina wrote: >>For people from diffrent houses (presumably), and noticeably diffrent ages they call each other by first name with a familiarity that only friends or house-mates would have. It's quite a departure from the books so I'm wondering if this is a slip up of the screen writer (and later actors) or if this was an intentional thing.<< HunterGreen: Except in this case its not a deviation from the book at all. Actually, in the movie Tom calls Hagrid 'Hagrid' when in the book (just checked, because I wasn't sure) he calls him 'Rubeus', which is even *more* personal. The first-name thing and Tom knowing that Hagrid was taking care of a 'monster', something that it seemed like no one else knew (of course Tom could have happened upon it by accident, and that might be why him and Hagrid knew each other). Again, I *very* much doubt that Hagrid is one the evil side, but it is all a little curious. From saitaina at frontiernet.net Sat May 8 10:25:34 2004 From: saitaina at frontiernet.net (Saitaina) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 03:25:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: small thing in COS References: Message-ID: <009301c434e6$cdecff00$01fea8c0@domain.invalid> No: HPFGUIDX 97904 Hunter Green wrote: This is why I need to re-read the books more then every few years, details slip my mind. Granted that Hagrid's love of weird creatures was probably legendary in school, or close to it, the way Tom speaks of it it's just...more then being familiar with the rumors and finally using them to his advantage. But I can't for the life of me think how this could be unless they were friends (at least Tom being friendly) at one point. But I don't see how that could matter in the larger picture and be important later. I agree that Hagrid is probably not now nor was evil, though it does rather smack of a betrayed friendship. I could see Tom using Hagrid's love of and knowledge of dangerous creatures and befriending the boy simply for that, but what use could that possibly be later on? Er, the betrayed friendship not the knowledge bit. Of course it could turn out that Hagrid was a Slytherin (and this WOULD fit in with Hagrid's saying there wasn't a witch or wizard who went bad who didn't come from Slytherin, especially if Tom betrayed him) and thus destroy more of Harry's delusions of the wizarding world but Hagrid seems more Hufflepuff then anything else so that's highly doubtful. Plus there's the whole fact that JKR has yet to shine any light on Slytherin house and leave them all nasty little sods. Saitaina **** Inside my mind that tiny little voice that tells me when I'm being stupid is flipping right out. You do not pin the princess of all of Hyrule up against a wall and threaten her. Unfortunately I have this awful habit of ignoring that little voice . . . http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From hannah at readysolve.com Sat May 8 10:38:32 2004 From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 10:38:32 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97905 I think I've mentioned this before, but my bet on a small thing that turns up later is the dwarves. It just seems odd to introduce a whole race, and all we know about them is that they were employed by Lockhart to deliver valentine's cards. At a time when both sides are recruiting non-humans they are bound to turn up again. Of course, this could hardly 'give the whole thing away', so maybe I'd better reserve my opinion until I know what the exact quote was. If anyone does know, please post it. Khilari. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat May 8 11:34:06 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 11:34:06 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97906 vmonte wrote : > No kidding?! We are all taking guesses here, right? I'm not saying > that I know I'm right. I'm going along with the people on this > thread making predictions. But get nasty if you like... Del replies : I'm sorry, I never meant to sound nasty ! I was just commenting on your supposition (that someone else apart from Harry and LV could be part of the Prophecy), and pointing out that your conclusion that it must be DD wasn't necessarily the only possibility. I'm a former science student, you see, and I just can't help but keep looking for *all* possible conclusions for any supposition :-) I like to be thorough, and I tend to be perfectionist sometimes :-) Please don't be offended, I never meant to be nasty. Del From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 8 12:43:29 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 12:43:29 -0000 Subject: What sort of society and why ( was Re: Inaugural address....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97907 This thread seems to be drifting towards theories/analyses of governance in the WW. Interesting. I've rearranged the order of (heavily snipped) previous comments in an attempt to make my responses more coherent. Hope it works. > Nora: 'Reactionary' does have the traditional meaning as ultra- conservative, for the maintenance of the status quo. I'd argue that many of Voldemort's ideas/would be policies are not revolutionary, but rather an intensification of the status quo. After all, a lot of rather conservative types thought Voldemort had the right ideas. > Kneasy: Hm. It's difficult to come up with illustrations that don't have glaring exceptions or a tendency to draw unhelpful parallels with the RW. The purebloods do tend towards reactionary in that they hanker for a system that they think used to exist. Voldy seems to be the answer to their prayers in that he's happy to put the boot into Muggles, Muggle-borns and Mudbloods. Hooray! Our natural place as the true expression of Wizardkind is his agenda! He's the Man! Wrong. Voldy has his own agenda over and above this spasm of introverted self-regard. He wants to wield his power as the sole authority in the WW. He will be the sole arbiter of who is acceptable. Anybody who opposes or even fails in their 'duty' to achieve this end will be on the receiving end of his wand. His aim is to institute one-man rule. I'm not sure that the purebloods fully appreciate this, though Malfoy Snr. gives some evidence of showing caution. But most are probably like Regulus Black; their own prejudices have blinded them to the reality until too late. They can fairly be compared to what Lenin called "useful fools". They too will be subject to Voldy's caprices and their blood will not save them. > > Kneasy: Yes. But I doubt if he intends to raise any of his supporters very high. Power in the WW is predicated on *magical* power; that is entirely personal and cannot be delegated or transferred. >> > Nora: I doubt that power (in the WW at present) is strictly predicated on magical power; Umbridge didn't exactly overtly impress, and neither does Fudge--but I don't know. It seems to be some perverse mix of money, lineage, possibly power...you know, all of a sudden I'm wondering about DD's heritage... Agree again on how Voldemort treats supporters--he is the top dog and everyone else is subordinate. > Kneasy: "In the WW at present" is right, but it won't stay that way if Voldy wins. For the moment he's happy to let this useless government bumble along, not least because it so often sees Dumbledore as it's nemesis. Fine; let them. If they waste their efforts countering a non-existent threat that's all to Voldy's benefit. And of course his supporters are inside the Ministry helping to perpetuate this myth. Once he's safely ensconced there won't be a government. Oh, the label may still be used as a comfort to the credulous, but in reality it will be no more than Voldy's secretariat; fawning lickspittles eager to enact his slightest whim. > Nora: I need a new word, but one was thinking in part of the progressive/reactionary debate in terms of liberalism and the right to individual freedom; IMHO, individual freedom is the last thing that Voldemort wants. DD strikes me as an almost classical liberal (small l, natch) in some ways. > Kneasy: In a dictatorship concepts of Progressive/Reactionary, Left/Right become meaningless. Those labels predicate factions fighting for supremacy. IMO Voldy is not factional. To their discredit his supporters are and they suppose that Voldy is; but so far as he is concerned everyone is there to be used, ignored or disposed of. He is not involved in a reaction/progressive battle, though he'll not disillusion those who think he is, he's in the process of executing a putsch that will install an immortal as perpetual ruler. Factions become very small beer in such circumstances. DD probably is the epitome of liberal thinking and personal freedoms and with the return of Voldy he sees the larger danger that others may not. He distinguishes between Voldy and his supporters - it is *Voldy* that must be destroyed, not his adherents (unless it's absolutely unavoidable). > Nora: I'm a big admirer of Pip!Squeak's MDDT revised defense, posted a while ago; in it, she speculates that DD stayed at Hogwarts because it was the place where he could functionally affect the most change. Note Fudge's litany of complaints, among which is 'not using Ministry approved curricula'--DD has been deciding what to teach the students, in large part. I think he's been thinking and plotting for some time on how to change the WW, but hey, mass societal change is never a fast process. > Kneasy: Yep; Pip!Squeak's reasoning has a lot going for it, but DD's premises and actions become null and void once Voldy returns. Evolutionary change in attitudes and behaviour are too slow to counter this threat. Influencing school children over generations supposes that time is not a critical factor, but now it is; time has run out, the danger is banging on the door. > Nora: Merit is a slippery issue; again, I was thinking a little more small scale. We've had hints and inclinations that advancement in government (and the bureaucracy, which *needs* to be independent--that's a major political problem in the WW system) is strongly influenced not only by who you know (I'm in academia --I know all about that), but by what you *are* (considered in the essentialist manner that a lot of the WW thinks about blood) and your political attitudes towards blood. Draco hates Hermione in part because she's smarter than he is and gets better marks--he thinks that his bloodright priviledge should rule over her merit. > Kneasy: This will have to be addressed eventually but again, it only becomes relevant if Voldy gets the chop. Draco's attitudes indicate how ineffectual DD's slow, steady influencing of the student generations has been up to now. I'm not so sure that Draco thinks that bloodright should over-rule academic merit, more likely he can't understand why his wizarding antecedants have not guaranteed his academic superiority. He's been bred to it, hasn't he? Must be better, stands to reason - this is the attitude of Lucius - no Muggle-born is a proper wizard, therefore Draco isn't trying hard enough. Draco still thinks he's better, though doubts may be creeping in after 5 years of being an also-ran. > Nora: Of course; I agree about the effects of ambition. I think the number of times the blood requirement has been reiterated is important, though. Still don't know what to think about Ol' Salazar--he's a major blank space in my mental map of the Potterverse. > Kneasy: Oooh! It's my belief that old Sally is very important indeed, perhaps even critical to the tale. It's his ideas that are being perpetuated among the (clotted) so-called cream. Even his name may be a pointer - IIRC, JKR spent some years in Portugal. Wasn't Salazar a one-time dictator there? Ruling over an oligarchy? And guess what - he started as a professor. > Nora: So are we heading to a point where Tom is going to have to make the choice? Harry does something to *enable* Tom to make the choice? It's got a certain elegance to it, I'll give you that, Kneasy... :) > Kneasy: You haven't been reading my rantings, have you? *Sigh* Here am I, knocking my pipes out constructing theories tying together Voldy, Salazar, Tom, the concurrence of their obsessions, how they can be neatly resolved and providing an explanation of why DD doesn't zap Voldy on sight and you've never even noticed. 'Twas ever thus. From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat May 8 13:06:38 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 13:06:38 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rach9112000" wrote: > > Julie wrote: > > >>It is about a small thing JKR mentioned > > was in the movie and the book because it had plot value.<< > > > > HunterGreen: > > I think it was something about 'giving "it all" away' or something > > along those lines (not sure what interview it came from though). > > > Rachel: > I've heard about the small thing that JKR mentioned too but would > really like to read the interview first-hand. If anyone knows when > and where she said this please could they let us know? > Cheers, Rachel. Annemehr: Actually, I think we're combining two different things here. First of all, I believe there is an interview, which I haven't found yet, where JKR says she *took out* something from CoS the *book,* because it nearly gave it all away. So we might be searching for that in vain, as it might have been removed entirely. Second, on the CoS DVD, Lizo Mzamba interviewed JKR and Steven Kloves, and he tells how JKR will sometimes tell him which details he must include, because they will come up later: -------------------------------------- Lizo: There are so many rich details in the books. Can you tell us how you decide what goes in and what stays out? Steve: I will sometimes ask Jo. I will say, you know, this detail, you just seem to have cast just a bit more light on this in this scene than the other details. Sometimes I'm wrong, but often she'll say "No, that is going to play." There's one thing in Chamber, actually, that Jo indicated will play later in the series. The hardest thing for me, honestly, is I'm writing a story to which I do not know the end. Which is, I'm not going to lie to you, has been the case sometimes in my own originals, ------------------------------------------ Here, I don't think they're actually talking about something that *gives it ALL away,* just some lesser thing that will come up later. For instance, the Hand of Glory seems likely -- it's hard to imagine that it's the whole key to the defeat of Voldemort, but it's easy to think it might come up later. Hope this helps! Annemehr off to search for that CoS book reference From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat May 8 13:35:18 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 13:35:18 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97909 Del wrote: Del replies : I'm sorry, I never meant to sound nasty ! I was just commenting on your supposition (that someone else apart from Harry and LV could be part of the Prophecy), and pointing out that your conclusion that it must be DD wasn't necessarily the only possibility. I'm a former science student, you see, and I just can't help but keep looking for *all* possible conclusions for any supposition :-) I like to be thorough, and I tend to be perfectionist sometimes :-) Please don't be offended, I never meant to be nasty. vmonte responds: I'm sorry as well. I'ts hard to tell when people are being sarcastic on the internet. You are right, though, that my conclusion is not the only possibility; it's just one thought in a website full of ideas (most of which, like mine, are based not on cannon). I'm going to take a few breaths, and relax. I am sorry, I tend to come to other peoples defense as well. From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat May 8 14:15:43 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:15:43 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: small thing in COS In-Reply-To: <008801c434d6$1e744ac0$01fea8c0@domain.invalid> Message-ID: <000a01c43506$f39ec100$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 97911 HunterGreen wrote: <(I've also always found it odd that Tom Riddle and Hagrid knew each other personally when they were several years apart and presumably in different houses, although Tom could just have seen him as an easy patsy).> Sherry says: Actually, I don't find it so odd. After all, the Slytherins in Harry's time know the trio very well, and they also never miss a chance to pick on Neville, even from the very beginning in that first flying lesson. I could see Tom Riddle picking on the one he would estimate to be the most different or vulnerable. And Hagrid did and still does have a fondness for monsters. Seems an easy choice to me. Sherry G From tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com Sat May 8 14:59:34 2004 From: tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:59:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can a M$^blood even become a pureblood? (From Assumption) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97912 Susan: Is it possible for a m$&blood family eventually to become a pureblood family? Ok, James is from a pureblooded family. Lily comes from a muggle family, but she's obviously a wizard. They have Harry. Isn't he (Harry) technically more "pure" than Lily (bloodwise)? So if he married a pureblood, their child would be even more "pure" wouldn't he/she? And if that child grows up and marries a pureblood... See where I'm going? Where does it end? My theory: If you assume that mudblood comes from the idea of the blood being muddied or dirty, then the assumption must also follow that there is no point where the mudblooded becomes pureblooded. If you think back to your science class and the atom cutting example, no matter how many times you half an object, it still exists, though in increasingly negligible amounts. For a more tangible example, assuming that Harry and his descendants only marry purebloods, there may be a point where the WW consider his line a pureblood line, but regardless, there is still a tangible point where his line was not pureblooded, thereby making his blood dirty by the standards of the Malfoys of the world. ~Ali [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ekrbdg at msn.com Sat May 8 15:26:04 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (ekrbdg) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 15:26:04 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor's Hat In-Reply-To: <96.a0db109.2dca7c6f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97913 "Laura Walsh wrote" > In every scene in which a student tries on the Sorting Hat, which > supposedly belonged to Godric Gryffindor before the original four > started using it to sort the new students, the hat slips down over > the student's eyes, indicating that it is too big for them. Why is it > so large? Adults' heads aren't significantly larger than the heads > of 11 year olds. As far as we know Gryffindor was a normal wizard, > i.e., he was not part giant, but why would his head be so extraordinarily > large? The original "Big-Head Boy"? > > Laura Walsh *Kimberly's comment* My general feeling when reading how the hat slipped down over the student's eyes, etc. was that it was in order to be able to grasp a better idea of what was in their head. I had the impression of it just setting on top of their head and not being able to get as accurate an idea in order to place them. With it down over more of their head, the Hat could really get in there and see what House they'd be better suited for. Kimberly From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat May 8 15:41:40 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 15:41:40 -0000 Subject: What sort of society and why ( was Re: Inaugural address....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97914 Kneasy: Who, on merit is best fitted to 'lead' the WW? Probably Dumbledore. But he's refused once already, condemning the WW to a weak, vacillating government. A government cannot be strong if the most powerful person in society is outside it, no matter how benevolent that person may be. (Message 97853) Nora: I'm a big admirer of Pip!Squeak's MDDT revised defense, posted a while ago; in it, she speculates that DD stayed at Hogwarts because it was the place where he could functionally affect the most change. Note Fudge's litany of complaints, among which is 'not using Ministry approved curricula'--DD has been deciding what to teach the students, in large part. I think he's been thinking and plotting for some time on how to change the WW, but hey, mass societal change is never a fast process. (Message 97863) PiP!Squeak: And suddenly the question of `why would Dumbledore lead his attack on Voldemort from a *school*' makes perfect sense. If Dumbledore wants to change the very ethos of the WW, he has to start with the children. Children whose views have yet to be formed. Children who can then grow up in a place where muggleborns are treated as equal; where a werewolf or half-giant can be your friend. (Message 81010) Bookworm: Independent commissions to review things get formed when things go wrong. Not when everyone is singing "The Wicked Witch is dead." Immediately after Voldemort's vaporization, the WW's attitude would have been "life is good", not "we need to fix these problems." Dumbledore is more a coach than a political leader; making him the Minister would not have been the best use of his talents. Blaming the problems of the WW on one person's refusal to become Minister of Magic totally ignores the culpability of everyone else who accepts the status quo. (Think of Ron's first reaction to learning about Lupin and Hagrid, and the attitude of most people toward house elves.) Using Kneasy's own comments against him : "But most are probably like Regulus Black; their own prejudices have blinded them to the reality until too late." That applies to the "good guys" as well as the bad. And saying that the government is dependent on "the most powerful person in society" being in charge ? well, that just opens the door for people like Voldemort. Ravenclaw Bookworm From starropal at hotmail.com Sat May 8 16:02:38 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 11:02:38 -0500 Subject: Filk - Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97915 Vodemort by Star Opal To the tune of Mona Lisa Voldemort, Voldemort, you have named you So unlike the Riddle with the charming smile Is it the search for immortality that has changed you? That made that icy cruelty in your smile? Do you smile cause you're happy, Voldemort? Because its time to blow Potter apart? Many schemes you've brought to Hogwart's doorstep Get him try there, him to die there Now you're formed, and you're real, Voldemort You're just a red eyed baddy, making pain an art Do you smile cause you're happy, Voldemort? Because its time to blow Potter apart? Many schemes you've brought to Hogwart's doorstep Get him try there, him to die there Now you're formed, and you're real, Voldemort You're just a red eyed baddy, making pain an art Voldemort... Voldemort! _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://youroffers.msn.com From SuzChiles at pobox.com Sat May 8 15:58:40 2004 From: SuzChiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:58:40 -0700 Subject: The Map, the Twins, the Rat? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97916 I have long wondered how Fred and George learned how to manipulate the map with 'I solemnly swear I am up to no good'. I recently had this thought: could it be possible that Scabbers conspired to tell the twins how the map worked? I began to wonder if the Twins brought the map home over the summer and spent hours in their room trying to figure it out. Surely Scabbers would have picked up on this. Could Peter have found a way to let the Twins know how to use the map? I can picture Peter transforming into himself and whispering the information into the twin's ears as they slept and then the twins waking up the next morning and trying the phrase they had dreamed about and ... Voila! Suzanne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sat May 8 11:59:18 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 07:59:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: small thing in COS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22535E6C-A0E7-11D8-BB09-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97917 , Khilari2000 wrote: > I think I've mentioned this before, but my bet on a small thing that > turns up later is the dwarves. It just seems odd to introduce a whole > race, and all we know about them is that they were employed by > Lockhart to deliver valentine's cards... > I wonder if could be Professor Flitwick part dwarf? He is so unusually small. I had thought he was a midget, but now ... Ivogun [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat May 8 16:09:44 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 16:09:44 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97918 Jim Ferer: "The vision I get is Harry somehow giving up his magical ability in order to take away Voldemort's ability; the ultimate destiny of their magical and blood links." Pippin: "Yeah, that's what I've been saying too. And I've thought of a way it could happen. We know that some of Harry's magical abilities came from Voldemort. Suppose they all did? Suppose it's Harry, not Neville, who was the natural-born squib. So when Voldemort finally dies, Harry's powers vanish forever." Jim Ferer: As I was about to hit the button it came to me what form a "resurrection" could take: Harry, bereft of everything that had made his life meaningful, is accepted and honored in the world he saved ? a kind of rebirth? Reborn and accepted just for himself, not for what he can do. Jim Ferer (in an upthread post): JKR has said in an interview something to the effect that there are Biblical parallels to her story and that those familiar will the Bible will figure out what's coming. Bookworm: The thought of Harry being thrown back into the muggle world after 7 years in the WW just doesn't work for me. He would be woefully unprepared to function as an adult in that world. However, another Biblical analogy might fit: Abraham's sacrifice of his son. If Harry willing sacrifices his powers to defeat Voldemort, would the "ancient magic" then allow him to keep them? (A variation of John 15:13 ? Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.) Ravenclaw Bookworm From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Sat May 8 13:02:46 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 13:02:46 -0000 Subject: But Why does it Have to be Lupin? (was:Kreacher, Buckbeak ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97919 > Erin wrote: > There are an awful lot of Weasleys in the Order, and yet not > one of them makes it to the Ministry? What are the odds? Surely at > least one of them had to have been purposely "unavailable" so as not > to have to fight his Death Eater friends? > > > Carol: > I don't think Arthur chose to stay away from the MoM. He simply wasn't > at Grimmauld Place when Snape informed Sirius and the others that > Harry needed to be rescued. Everyone who was present (Tonks, Mad- eye, > Lupin, Shacklebolt, and Sirius himself, despite Snape's advice) showed > up for the battle. > adi here: Another reason that strikes me is that all those who made it were aurors in exception of Lupin and Sirius who would never forego a chance to fight or leave Harry. It is simply that Arthur and Molly though good wizards in their own way were not trained to fight dark wizards and may not be able to cope up with the demand. Nor is Bill, I am sure. bye adi From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Sat May 8 14:31:32 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 14:31:32 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97920 Saitaina wrote: >>For people from diffrent houses (presumably), and noticeably diffrent ages they call each other by first name with a familiarity that only friends or house-mates would have. It's quite a departure from the books so I'm wondering if this is a slip up of the screen writer (and later actors) or if this was an intentional thing.<< HunterGreen: >>Except in this case its not a deviation from the book at all. Actually, in the movie Tom calls Hagrid 'Hagrid' when in the book (just checked, because I wasn't sure) he calls him 'Rubeus', which is even *more* personal. The first-name thing and Tom knowing that Hagrid was taking care of a 'monster', something that it seemed like no one else knew (of course Tom could have happened upon it by accident, and that might be why him and Hagrid knew each other). Again, I *very* much doubt that Hagrid is one the evil side, but it is all a little curious.<< This is probably a bit far fetched, because Hagrid's size and knack with odd creatures, could well have attracted Tom's attention at school, but: Hagrid's mother left when he was small. His father died shortly after Hagrid started Hogwarts. If this death occured during the school holidays, might well meaning muggle neighbours sent Hagrid to an orphanage. Even if he only stayed there a short time, he might have been noticed by a boy from a similar background, also there because one parent had abandoned him. Leah, who doesn't believe Hagrid is evil either From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 8 16:43:20 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 16:43:20 -0000 Subject: Draco & The New Death Eaters - Harsh Realities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > > > Gregory Lynn wrote: > > > > Draco could be disillusioned by something he sees his father do. > > Marianne wrote: > > And, frankly, I can't see that anything Lucius could do, > > including killing someone, that Draco couldn't rationalise to > > himself as a necessary action. > > Mandy here: > > I can think of one person Lucius could kill that would alienate > > Draco; and that his mother, Narcissa. > imamommy: > > What about Voldemort killing Lucius? Draco seems to think his > father very powerful, and on the smart side of things, what if LV > decides he is displeased and disposes of Lucius? I can see that > changing his mind, even if Daddy Dearest has remained evil and > twisted his whole life. > > imamommy bboy_mn: I wonder if it would even take /that much/ to turn Draco around? I have often wonder what Voldemort and Draco's first meeting would be like. I suspect Draco pictures his father and Voldemort standing side by side on a balcony while the wizard world bows down to them. In a way, I think in his mind he believes, because he and his father are pureblood, Voldemort would treat them as an equals. But how is Draco going to view his powerful almighty father when he see him groveling on the ground treating Voldemort like a god, being tortured by him, and kissing his scaly bum? Also, it's easy for Draco to sit around and fantasize about being far superior to muggles and mudbloods, but there is far more to being a Death Eater. How do you think a coward like Draco is going to react the first time he sees a Death Eater tortured, or his father tortured? Or, the first time he, himself, is tortured? How do you think he's going to react the first time he sees someone, anyone, AK'd? Or, the first time Voldemort demands that Draco, himself, kill someone? It's easy to see yourself as superior to the world around you when you are insulated from the less pleasant things in life by your wealth and privilege, but quite another when you must finally get your hands dirty. If Draco is redeem, I suspect it will be because he is too cowardly to face the realities of being a Death Eater. In sense, very much like Regulus Black, it's very easy to support Voldemort when it's all intellect and ideals, but suddenly when you are faced with the blood of your enemy and getting your hands dirty, it's not such a pleasant thing afteral. On the other hand, I could also see something happening between Draco and Harry, something far greater than has already happened, that would so enrage Draco that he would commit an unspeakable act and that would push him beyond redemption. Much like Tom Riddle, once he killed his own family (father, grandparents), there was no turning back after that. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Sat May 8 16:59:27 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 16:59:27 -0000 Subject: Shortest stay at Privet Drive (was Grandparents redux ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97922 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: JKR has mentioned that Harry's stay at Privet > Drive will be the shortest in book 6. Perhaps it's because Voldemort > is going to wipe them out during summer vacation. > > vmonte Or perhaps Sirius left #12 to Harry so Harry now has a place he can call home that doesn't involve the Dursleys but still fills the needs of whatever protection Dumbledore has arranged at the Dursleys. From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat May 8 17:01:33 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 17:01:33 -0000 Subject: The Map, the Twins, the Rat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97923 Suzanne wrote: > I have long wondered how Fred and George learned how to manipulate the map > with 'I solemnly swear I am up to no good'. > > I recently had this thought: could it be possible that Scabbers conspired to > tell the twins how the map worked? An alternative idea is that the map recognised the twins' qualities and told them itself. The map truly does seem to have a "brain" of sorts, given the way it recognised Snape's name and then insulted him. The fact that all the insults mention "Professor" Snape suggests that it wasn't merely preprogrammed with insults to "Snivellus," which is a name the manufacturers would have been more likely to use if they'd done that. Perhaps the map recognised the mischief-making bent of the twins while they were experimenting with it, and it showed them tiny Fred and George figures with a speech bubble giving the magic words. That's an action similar to it showing Harry how to open the witch's hump (which is also a clue to the map's "brain," come to think of it). I'm not saying it couldn't have been Scabbers; that's just not something I could really see him doing. JKR surprises me a lot, though, so who knows? Annemehr who likes the idea of the map being delighted in its new owners, Gred and Forge From caesian at yahoo.com Sat May 8 18:36:14 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 18:36:14 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97924 "dobbyisdumbledore wrote: > > > In as such it may very well be Harry and Tom that must defeat Salizar > > > Slytherin (via defeating Voldemort). > > > what would make > > Tom Riddle, who was apparently very willing to be Slytherin's vessel, > > change his mind and join forces with Harry? > AJ replied: > I have to point out that this reminds me of the alchemy ending posed > on thinkpotter.com-- that the seventh step is combinining/merging, > and that JKR made her the 'heart of it all' comment right after > someone asked about unlikely pairings, so that the gist is that the > end product is some kind of meld of Harry/Tom. (You can look this up > on the thinkpotter.com site, and for more on alchemy, see John > Granger's _Hidden Key to HP_- a good r/h point about sulfur/mercury!) > Caesian replies: I do think the alchemical lore is a great influence on these books. Just to give the most recent example - the burning or blackening of Harry (and us) by OotP, and the death of Sirius (the name also means to scorch). In response to the dual nature of Voldemort/Tom Riddle - which may have been passed to Harry by Voldemort's marking of him as a child - I would offer this piece of canon: Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't just throw Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he *knew* the diary was blank, he kept absent-mindedly picking it up and turning he pages, as though it was a story he wanted to finish. And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and half-forgotten. But this was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made sure of that. (CoS The Very Secret Diary UK HB 174) This passage has always struck me as odd - and there are many ways it might be understood. One is that Harry - because of the mark, the transfer of powers or the connection - is experiencing some residual of the feelings Voldemort had about Tom Riddle. It would make some sense for Voldemort to regard Tom Riddle as a friend he'd had when very small, and half-forgotten. I also think Harry's response to Tom Riddle is surprisingly empathetic: Harry's brain seemed to have jammed. He stared numbly at Riddle, the orphaned boy who had grown up to murder Harry's own parents, and so many others ... (CoS The Heir of Slytherin UK HB 231) I guess I'd have to agree that the potential for a redeemed Tom Riddle seems decent. Caesian - who wonders about the spell that DD cast that was meant not to kill but to destroy From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat May 8 18:37:45 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 19:37:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can a M$^blood ever become a pureblood? References: <1083878792.7056.15985.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000c01c4352b$8ea72100$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 97925 bboy_mn wrote: >Now to Pureblood, the problem with locking down a working definition >of Pureblood is that it is not an absolute fact; it is a matter of >opinion. In one person's eyes, if you have 10 generations of pure > >You understand, of course, I propose this purely for purposes of >illustration. I don't really believe this is Hermione's history, just >trying to point out how uncertain and ill-defined this whole >'pureblood' thing is. > >So, purity of blood is in the eye of the beholder. Quite so. It seem to me that there are only certain families who care. There are just a few families for whom this matters. They have a tapestry on the wall going back to when? A very long way, certainly. Assuming that wizards live twice as long as Muggles (though I know that you've theorised that it could be up to three times as long) then a wizarding generation would be 60 years. So by the time you get back to 15 generations, you're back 900 years in time. In our world, I think I'm right that there are aristocratic families that can trace their lineage back considerably more than 15 generations (eg the Royals, for one). So maybe the wizarding aristocrats can trace their lines back anything up to 2000 years. But for the majority, they don't have a tapestry. Maybe there's a Muggle or two, generations back before the Statute of Secrecy, or even more recently, but it's no big deal. Unless there's a Muggle parent there, then no one really worries about it. Likewise, there are, it would seem, very few wizards with two Muggle parents. If a quarter of the Hogwarts intake have at least one, then only a fraction (perhaps a third) of those have two Muggle parents, a very small number compared to the size of the population as a whole. Which in turn means that a very small part of the WW population (the pureblood aristocracy) are concerned about a very small part of the WW population (the Muggle-born). Possibly because both groups come together at Hogwarts at an impressionable time in their lives? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 21:24:01 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 21:24:01 -0000 Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97926 Mandy wrote: The location of Grimmauld place is blown, but the house itself is not. In other words, the DE could go to Grimmauld Place and stand outside Number 12 and unless they have the Secret password, they will not be able to see the house, numbers 10 and 14 would appear next to each other. So the Order could still technically use the house, but I agree with Jim in that they would be stupid to do so. There is nothing to stop the DE's from staking out the `invisible' house, front and back, watching those who appear and disappear inside. Then there is nothing to stop the DE's ambushing the Order members as they leave. Grimmauld Place is no longer a Safe House. LV knows of the Orders existence and though him his DE, or at least those DEs LV wants to know, know. LV knew every active member of the Order during the first war, as Mad Eye tells us that the members were being picked off one by one. It stands to reason that LV is aware of whom, out of the original Order are still alive, from Peter and/or Lucius and other informants. LV may not know who the new members are, yet, but I doubt it will take him long to find out. He will know through Bellatrix who was fighting for DD at the MoM battle, so Tonks, Shackelbolt, and Lupin along with DD and Harry are currently one the top of LV's Order Members That Must Die List. I don't believe anyone can destroy a house that is under the Fedealius Charm unless they have the Secret from the secret keeper. So, hypothetically, Harry could destroy Grimmauld Place but LV couldn't. Carol: I agree with all of this (though I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that it was Lupin who talked about the former Order members being picked off one by one). What I wonder is whether Narcissa could order Kreacher to destroy Grimmauld Place from within. He would do it, IMO, even if it meant his own death, and his one wish (to have his head decorating the hallway) lost forever--unless, of course, he was forbidden to do so by the portrait of Mrs. Black. Technically, of course, Harry isn't an Order member, but that won't matter to LV. And Bellatrix will also have given him the names of any junior Order (DA) members she recognized--certainly Neville and possibly Ron and Hermione, if Lucius or LV had filled her in on the identity of Harry's best friends. Ginny Weasley would be easy to identify, too, from her red hair and her resemblance to Ron. Luna is probably the only one teenager present whose identity Bellatrix would be unable to figure out. Carol, who wonders whether LV knows (or guesses) that Snape is also in the Order From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat May 8 21:59:22 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 21:59:22 -0000 Subject: James or Lilly killed first? - differences in editions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97927 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Carol: > As I said in another post, there's another, smaller version of the > flint still uncorrected in my Scholastic edition of GoF. When Harry is > telling Sirius and Dumbldore about the events in the graveyard, his > father is mentioned before his mother. I'd look up the page number, > but it's 1:47 in the morning and besides, you have a different edition. Geoff: Just to complete the picture, when I wrote message 97773, I said..... "When I went to look this up to answer your question, I realised for the first time that I have both versions. My hardback has the original version which reads as follows: 'The smoky shadow of a tall man with untidy hair fell to the ground as Bertha had done, straightened up and looked at him.... and Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his father. "Your mother's coming," he said quietly.... "She wants to see you... it will be all right.... hold on..."' (GOF "Priori Incantatem" p.579 UK edition) My paperback version, on the same page has: 'The smoky shadow of a young woman with long hair fell to the ground as Bertha had done, straightened up and looked at him.... and Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother. "Your father's coming," she said quietly.... "He wants to see you... it will be all right.... hold on..."' Curiously, I must have bought an older copy of the hardback because I bought the paperback (altered version) in November 2002 and the hardback (original version) in October 2003 when I bought the hardbacks to match my OOTP on the bookshelf." (end of quote). I now realise that, when I come to look at the later comments, both versions are the same(!). It reads: 'He tried to keep talking but the memories of what had come out of Voldemort's wand were flooding into his mind. He could see Cedric emerging, see he old man, Bertha Jorkins.... his mother..... his father....' (GOF "The Parting of the Ways" p.605 UK edition) This is the correct sequence to match the events in both books whereas one printing has the earlier description wrong. The interesting question is, if both my UK editions have the correct order on p.605 despite having different orders on p.579 and yet the US Scholastic edition apparently is wrong in Carol's copy, did this Flint actually creep into UK editions? Anybody got earlier UK editions to check? From squeakinby at tds.net Sat May 8 23:13:48 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 18:13:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James or Lilly killed first? - differences in editions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <409D69AC.7020005@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97928 Geoff Bannister wrote: > The interesting question is, if both my UK editions have the correct > order on p.605 despite having different orders on p.579 and yet the > US Scholastic edition apparently is wrong in Carol's copy, did this > Flint actually creep into UK editions? > > Anybody got earlier UK editions to check? I have a 1st edition UK copy of the GoF hardcover. On page 579 it reads--- "Your mother's coming..." he said quietly. On pages 604-5 it reads--- He could see Cedric emerging, see the old man, see Bertha Jorkins...his mother...his father Jem From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat May 8 22:17:12 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 22:17:12 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > HunterGreen: > Except in this case its not a deviation from the book at all. > Actually, in the movie Tom calls Hagrid 'Hagrid' when in the book > (just checked, because I wasn't sure) he calls him 'Rubeus', which is > even *more* personal. The first-name thing and Tom knowing that > Hagrid was taking care of a 'monster', something that it seemed like > no one else knew (of course Tom could have happened upon it by > accident, and that might be why him and Hagrid knew each other). > Again, I *very* much doubt that Hagrid is one the evil side, but it > is all a little curious. Geoff: Actually, this leads me back to something which has puzzled for a long time. Why is it that Hagrid's first name is used so little? Even in situations where he is known personally, his first name is often ignored.... A couple of instances.... '...the barman reached for a glass, saying, "The usual, Hagrid?" "Can't Tom, I'm on Hogwarts business," said Hagrid, clapping his great hand on Harry's shoulder.....' (PS "Diagon Alley" p.55 UK edition) Secondly, there are several occasions where Dumbledore calls him "Hagrid" and yet he often uses colleagues' first names in conversations - he even calls Filch "Argus" more than once. So why is "Rubeus" heard so little? OK, there are exceptions such as Professor Sprout and Professor Quirrell but perhaps they're not so close to DD as, say, McGonagall or Snape. I expect someone has a pet theory waiting to be produced form the airing cupboard.... From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat May 8 22:39:31 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 22:39:31 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97930 Geoff: Actually, this leads me back to something which has puzzled for a long time. Why is it that Hagrid's first name is used so little? Even in situations where he is known personally, his first name is often ignored.... vmonte responds: Maybe Hagrid doesn't like his first name and prefers to be called Hagrid. Tonks doesn't like her first name either. vmonte From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 9 02:20:53 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 02:20:53 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > Bookworm: > The thought of Harry being thrown back into the muggle world after 7 years in the WW just doesn't work for me. He would be woefully unprepared to function as an adult in that world.< He'd be no worse off than many a young immigrant, and better off than many. He knows the language and he's got a huge pile of gold, which Gringotts is quite capable of changing into Muggle money for him. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 9 02:45:36 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 02:45:36 -0000 Subject: Inaugural address and Mandy Croyance on Assumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > A meritocracy has it's problems too. Who, on merit is best > fitted to 'lead' the WW? Probably Dumbledore. But he's refused > once already, condemning the WW to a weak, vacillating > government. A government cannot be strong if the most > powerful person in society is outside it, no matter how > benevolent that person may be. All it needs is another > powerful, ambitious individual with some support and such > a government is on the skids. The struggle is between the > supporters of the powerful, the government is irrelevant > except as an incidental prize to the winner. 'Merit' is such a > slippery concept in these circumstances; who decides who > merits success? It boils down eventually to power. DD has > power and abdicated his merited position, Voldy has power > and will fill the vacuum left if he can. If he does, he can be > considered to have merited it. > Whoa! Dumbledore was not outside the government. Besides being one Fudge's advisers in the earlier days of his ministry, he was also Supreme Mugwump (or Chairman) of the International Confed. of Wizards and Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot (the Wizarding High Court). He held those positions until he was forced out by Fudge and his allies for telling people something they didn't want to hear. And since they didn't want to hear it, being Minister would have made no difference. In Book Four, Dumbledore concurs with Fudge that telling people that Voldemort is back, the Dementors should be kicked out of Azkaban, and it's time to make a deal with the Giants would probably cost Fudge his job. It's probably why Dumbledore didn't want it in the first place--he knew the day would come. If the Ministry vacillates, it is probably because like most bodies politic, the people it represents aren't terribly logical or consistent about what they want. We can see that in Book Two: Knockturn Alley is no place for a respectable wizard...unless he needs slug repellent, of course. Pippin From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Sun May 9 03:16:00 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 03:16:00 -0000 Subject: James or Lilly killed first? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97933 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > As I said in another post, there's another, smaller version of the > flint still uncorrected in my Scholastic edition of GoF. When Harry is > telling Sirius and Dumbldore about the events in the graveyard, his > father is mentioned before his mother. I'd look up the page number, > but it's 1:47 in the morning and besides, you have a different edition. That's not necessarily a Flint, though. I don't seem to recall anything in that scene to indicate Harry was necessarily relating things in the exact order they happened. I'm just going from memory here, but didn't he pause in the narrative before that happened (interrupted you might say) and didn't Dumbledore say something along the lines of "You must have seen..." and Harry responds by naming his father then his mother. Just going by memory, so I could be wrong, isn't that how it goes? I would have thought that if they corrected an error, they'd have corrected it everywhere. Sure, they could have just made another mistake, but maybe it's not a mistake and instead is indicative of the relative importance of Harry's parents in his mind. He is, after all, a boy, and constantly reminded of how similar he is to his father both in good ways and bad. From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Sun May 9 03:32:02 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 03:32:02 -0000 Subject: Draco & The New Death Eaters - Harsh Realities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Also, it's easy for Draco to sit around and fantasize about being far > superior to muggles and mudbloods, but there is far more to being a > Death Eater. How do you think a coward like Draco is going to react > the first time he sees a Death Eater tortured, or his father tortured? > Or, the first time he, himself, is tortured? How do you think he's > going to react the first time he sees someone, anyone, AK'd? Or, the > first time Voldemort demands that Draco, himself, kill someone? > bboy_mn What is it that Phineas Nigellus' portrait says to Harry, that the difference is that when Slytherins get in a tight spot they do what they have to do to save their skins? Yeah, Draco will turn in a heartbeat to save his miserable little neck. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun May 9 04:54:21 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 04:54:21 -0000 Subject: FILK: Happy Her Lot Who Knows It All Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97935 The latest from HMS Dumbledore..... Happy Her Lot Who Knows It All (PS/SS, Chap. 6) To the tune of Sorry Her Lot Who Loves Too Well Text & MIDI at: http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/pinafore/web_opera/pn05.html Dedicated to Barb Roberts THE SCENE: The Hogwarts Express. RON & HARRY meet HERMIONE for the first time, and are less than thrilled HERMIONE Happy her lot who knows it all Highest the score of one most brainy Reading from books like "Rise and Fall" To memorize it so germanely Simple my magic, but I learn quick For all it takes is a swish and flick HARRY & RON Bossy the gal who struts her stuff Sore is her sight to us two fellows Right straightaway she called our bluff That we can not turn this rat yellow Simple her magic, but we aren't quick - We do not know how to swish and flick. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 15:50:39 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 15:50:39 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black Lives (was Janus and also Prophecy thoughts) Long Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97936 ::Entropy:: wrote: > >Janus > > Thickey is a wizard who faked his own death by Lethifold (also known > > as Death Shroud, a Fantastic Beast only found in the tropics). > > Coincidence that JKR is reminding us of a *wizard* who *fakes his own > > death* by means of a *shroud (veil)* linked to the *tropics* (where > > Sirius spent some time after his escape)? Snip from dumbledore11214: If we are to go along with Biblical parallels, then someone who >supposedly made a sacrifice for the Light will have to come back Then Chris wrote: Is it possible that Sirius, who died protecting Harry, would be resurrected as he also was imprisoned thru, protecting, albeit badly, Lily and James. It is also interesting about the veil and the veil in the temple was ripped when Jesus dies. The veil, I believe and am open to correction, rippled when Sirius dies. Ripped rippled .quite similar. I keep thinking about this as well. Too many similarities between what happened at the MoM to Sirius and the things JKR says in other places. I know what she said in her interview re: killing Sirius, and I used to be worried that he wasn't coming back, but after visiting here, I really am convinced we haven't seen the last of him. As far as biblical similarities referred to above, wouldn't Sirius' sacrifice also be the fact that he was *not* there at the MoM like HP thought, but as soon as he found out HP thought he was there he went there? HP thought he was saving Sirius and Sirius thought he was saving HP. And what about the references to Janus? Just the name (two faces) equals deception, so maybe Sirius really did fake his death (with the Order's help). I think (now) that it's a giant hint to us readers that he's still alive, because why else include this information about Janus that's sooo similar to the incidents surrounding Sirius' disappearance at the MoM? The main thing that's really bugged me about what happened there is that NO ONE knows (or rather, no one's saying)exactly what the veil is, where it goes, what it does, where it came from, etc., etc. I siriusly doubt JKR's going to just leave the veil unexplained after taking the trouble to introduce us to it. Also, I know some of you are concerned that time travel is going to play a big part in the ending of the HP series, but I believe if it was going to come into play to save Sirius (again) it would have been done immediately after the trip to the MoM. As we've seen/read in hundreds of stories, a person can't just go back in time and fix whatever it is without a bunch of other things changing as a result. At the very least, it's too unpredictable what things would get changed as a result. So, although I don't think time travel will figure into the Sirius problem, I do think there's more than meets the eye re: his *disappearance* through the veil. "Susan" From msmerymac at yahoo.com Sat May 8 20:35:35 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 20:35:35 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS In-Reply-To: <000a01c43506$f39ec100$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97937 > HunterGreen wrote: > > <(I've also always found it odd that Tom Riddle and > Hagrid knew each other personally when they were several years apart > and presumably in different houses, although Tom could just have seen > him as an easy patsy).> > > Sherry says: > > Actually, I don't find it so odd. After all, the Slytherins in Harry's time > know the trio very well, and they also never miss a chance to pick on > Neville, even from the very beginning in that first flying lesson. I could > see Tom Riddle picking on the one he would estimate to be the most different > or vulnerable. And Hagrid did and still does have a fondness for monsters. > Seems an easy choice to me. Luckie: I think what people find is odd, is that Hagrid and Tom were in different years. Hagrid was expelled in his third year and Tom was a sixth year, I think. He was at least a fifth year, since he was a prefect. The trio know Slytherins in their year because they have classes with them, and, well, they have an anymosity. But in OotP is was made prety clear Harry didn't know the stringy Slytherin boy in COMC class, although he had presumably been in class with him for 3 years. Harry didn't even know Andrew Goldstein, I don't think, until Andrew became Ravenclaw prefect and therefore had to associate with Ron and Hermione. The only upperclassmen Harry mentioned are Percy, Lee Jordan, and other quidditch players (the twins, Wood, Cho, Cedric, Montague, Flint, etc). So it does seem unusual that Hagrid would know Tom, especially if the school has 1,000 students, as JKR has suggested. I also found it interesting that Tom knew where to find Hagrid and didn't seem at all surprised that he had a "monster" hidden in a closet. And if I remember correctly, the closet was near the dungeons, and, therefore, the Slytherin dormitories. ~Luckie From HMaffioli at cox.net Sat May 8 21:32:21 2004 From: HMaffioli at cox.net (Heather Maffioli) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 14:32:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Godric Gryffindor's Hat References: Message-ID: <008801c43543$f24c8ac0$6401a8c0@sd.cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97938 *Kimberly's comment* My general feeling when reading how the hat slipped down over the student's eyes, etc. was that it was in order to be able to grasp a better idea of what was in their head. I had the impression of it just setting on top of their head and not being able to get as accurate an idea in order to place them. With it down over more of their head, the Hat could really get in there and see what House they'd be better suited for. Heather Adds: I would see this as an accurate interpritation. We see quite vividly that the hat needs 'more contact' with some students than others. It doesn't seem to even touch Draco before it shouts out Slytherin. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stacya14 at hotmail.com Sun May 9 02:31:10 2004 From: stacya14 at hotmail.com (stacya14) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 02:31:10 -0000 Subject: Harry- heir of Slytherin? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97939 It has been a very long time since I have visited this site; so please forgive me if someone else has already throughly covered this topic. However, as I was re-watching COS today (movie), all of a sudden a thought hit me: surely Harry must be an heir of Slytherin. How else would he be able to open the chamber? Of course, I headed straight for the book to see if I could substantiate this thought. "The heir alone would be able to unseal the chamber of secrets,..." COS chapter nine pg 151 amer. ed. (Professor Binns telling the class about the legend of the Chamber of Secrets.) I know it is also possible that this just means that only the heir can open it the first time, but others could do it later. Thus V opened at school, so now Harry can. But so many other things about Harry seem to point to this: his green eyes (which are mentioned more times than I can count), his likeness to Tom Riddle (pg317 CoS), the sorting hat wanting to put him in Slytherin, even Dumbledore admitted that Harry has many qualities that Salazar Slytherin looked for (CoS pg 333). Now I know that many people (me included) think that Harry is a distant relative of Godric Gryffindor. And I don't think that Harry being an heir of Slytherin means that he can't be an heir of Gryffindor. On the contrary, I believes it's possible that he's an heir of both of them (of course there's loads in the books that point to him being an heir of Gryffindor). But enough about what I think. What do you think? I'm interested to hear arguments for or against what I've said! Stacy From humantupperware1 at yahoo.com.au Sun May 9 04:49:33 2004 From: humantupperware1 at yahoo.com.au (humantupperware1) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 04:49:33 -0000 Subject: small thing in CoS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97940 I'm replying here to the post about Hagrid being in Knockturn alley... Personally, what I would like to know is, He says he's buying flesh- eating slug repellent because they are destroying his cabbages, but why would a FLESH_EATING slug eat cabbages????? hhhmmmmmmmmm......... "human tupperware" From saitaina at frontiernet.net Sun May 9 05:17:02 2004 From: saitaina at frontiernet.net (Saitaina) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 22:17:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: small thing in CoS References: Message-ID: <012501c43584$dd535e00$01fea8c0@domain.invalid> No: HPFGUIDX 97941 human tupperwear wrote: Never is specified which kind of flesh the slugs eat. Most slugs in our world don't each HUMAN flesh but eat plants, so perhaps this type of slug eats any sort of flesh, plant or animal. Saitaina **** Inside my mind that tiny little voice that tells me when I'm being stupid is flipping right out. You do not pin the princess of all of Hyrule up against a wall and threaten her. Unfortunately I have this awful habit of ignoring that little voice . . . http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sun May 9 06:13:20 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 06:13:20 -0000 Subject: Harry- heir of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97942 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says As a fanfic writer, I have theorized that Harry is descended from Salazar through Lily, who is the first witch in a long line of pureblood Squibs. That would be why her family was so proud to (finally!) have a witch in the family. Canon support? None, just that the issue of "purity of blood" has been so ingrained in the story that JKR must surely be planning to turn the issue on its butt. --JDR From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 9 06:49:08 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 06:49:08 -0000 Subject: James or Lilly killed first? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote: > That's not necessarily a Flint, though. I don't seem to recall > anything in that scene to indicate Harry was necessarily relating > things in the exact order they happened. I'm just going from memory > here, but didn't he pause in the narrative before that happened > (interrupted you might say) and didn't Dumbledore say something along > the lines of "You must have seen..." and Harry responds by naming his > father then his mother. Just going by memory, so I could be wrong, > isn't that how it goes? Geoff: Not quite. In the piece I quoted in message 97929, the order is that going through Harry's thoughts and the dots seem to imply that they came in that order as he focussed his mind on them. When he is actually asked about it, canon runs as follows: '"No spell can reawaken the dead, said Dumbledore heavily. "All that would have happened is a kind of reverse echo. A shadow of the living Cedric would have emerged from the wand.... am I correct, Harry?" "He spoke to me," Harry said. He was suddenly shaking again. "The.... the ghost Cedric, or whatever he was, spoke." "An echo," said Dumbledore, "which retained Cedric's appearance and character. I am guessing other such forms appeared.... less recent victims of Voldemort's wand..." "An old man," Harry said, his throat still constricted. "Bertha Jorkins. And...." "Your parents?" said Dumbledore quietly. "Yes," said Harry.' (GOF "The Parting of the Ways" pp.605-06 UK edition) At no point in this conversation does Harry specifically mention the order in which he sees his parents although Dumbledore suggests that the spell victims reappear in reverse order. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun May 9 06:52:45 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 06:52:45 -0000 Subject: Biblical Parallels Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97944 Requoting Jim Ferer: JKR has said in an interview something to the effect that there are Biblical parallels to her story and that those familiar will the Bible will figure out what's coming. vmonte responds again: I've been thinking about JKR's statement. If Harry represents, to JKR, a Christ-like figure; then Harry's future looks pretty grim. To be marked, from the time of a toddler, as the choosen one--what a curse! And all of DD's talk about free-will, and choice. I wasn't surprised at Harry's anger during OOTP, considering that the weight of the WW is on his shoulders. I think that part of DD's master plan involves his own self sacrifice for Harry. I have a feeling that Harry is going to begin to piece many bits of information together, and thwart DD's plan. If Harry is the Christ-figure in this story, he has to be the one to sacrifice himself. (Not that he hasn't been putting himself on the line all along.) vmonte From snapesmate at hotmail.com Sun May 9 07:24:33 2004 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 07:24:33 -0000 Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97945 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Miranda (who wonders what Snape would name his children if he did > have some...) > > Actually, I think it's a > boy and a girl--Albus and Florence, for the only two people he ever > cared about. > > Carol, who wishes Snape really had twins, or rather that the twins > were canonical Florence? Florence who? Where is this Florence in the book? How did I miss this? I know some specualte the Agnes, mentioned as the St. Mungo's patient is his mother. Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice guy! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun May 9 07:51:02 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 07:51:02 -0000 Subject: Biblical Parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97946 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Requoting Jim Ferer: > > JKR has said in an interview something to the effect that there are > Biblical parallels to her story and that those familiar will the Bible > will figure out what's coming. > > vmonte responds again: > > I've been thinking about JKR's statement. If Harry represents, to > JKR, a Christ-like figure; then Harry's future looks pretty grim. To > be marked, from the time of a toddler, as the choosen one--what a > curse! And all of DD's talk about free-will, and choice. I wasn't > surprised at Harry's anger during OOTP, considering that the weight > of the WW is on his shoulders. > (SNIP) > If Harry is the Christ-figure in this story, he has to be the one to > sacrifice himself. (Not that he hasn't been putting himself on the > line all along.) > > vmonte Now me: (Lazily adapting something I posted two months ago on another list as an answer to your message). Harry appears since the beginning of the series as a Christ-figure. The scenes at the end of the first chapter of the series, when he arrives and we "meet" him for the very first time, sound like an evocation of Epiphany. It happens after "a downpour of shooting stars"; there's a baby poorly settled on the threshold of a house, and three magi watching him as a miracle. Doesn't it remind some other similar situation, two thousands years ago? Everybody knows that there are Christians influences in the HP books; well, in my opinion, they show clearly in the way JKR makes Harry appear. Since the beginning, we can feel that this tiny baby has a destiny to fulfil, and that there is more than a fairytale in what we are reading. We are nearly facing a sacred scene, with its part of revelation (there's a child called Harry who is able to vanquish evil) and its part of mystery ("How in the name of heaven did Harry survive?" Mc Gonagall asks. And Dumbledore replies: "We can only guess. We may never know"). I read several articles about the reactions of some very radical churches that sentenced the books to burning because they were "satanic". I wonder why JKR's censors didn't accuse her books of blasphemy, because they melt sacred themes and a profane story of wizards "For unto us a child is born", just like in Handel's "Messiah"; that's what the end of the very first chapter of the series could mean. But JKR's choir is a whispering choir: "To Harry Potter, the Boy Who Lived" Amicalement, Iris, back after a long break. From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 07:55:03 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 07:55:03 -0000 Subject: HP and the Bible Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97947 JKR has said that there are Biblical parrelles in her books. Has anyone considered that these may not be New Testament alignments. It occurred to me as I was reading the thread about wand order that a lot of the things that occur in HP are similar to occurrences in Kings I and II. Solomen talking to the spirits for example references Harry talking to the wand spirits in the graveyard in GOF. Maybe I'm off base here, but perhaps we should take a closer look at the OT. Lady McBeth From RACH911 at aol.com Sun May 9 08:49:28 2004 From: RACH911 at aol.com (rach9112000) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 08:49:28 -0000 Subject: Neville's mysterious absence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97948 Hi. In Philosopher's/Sorceror's Stone, Neville breaks his wrist at the first quidditch lesson. This is very typical for Neville and is an introduction to how Neville's character will be portrayed throughout the series (so far), as accident prone and forgetful. However, in chapter 9 (The Midnight Duel), Neville is found sleeping in the corridor near the entrance to Gryffindor. He tells Harry, Ron and Hermione that he's been out there for hours and couldn't remember the password to get in (UK version pg 116). Knowing Neville's character, no further thought is really needed for this because it's a very believable situation for Neville to get himself in. However, firstly I think this is strange because surely someone from Gryffindor would have seen him but obviously this depends on exactly how many hours Neville was outside for. But my biggest question is, what Neville was doing between the quidditch lesson where he broke his wrist and arriving outside Gryffindor because he can't have been in the hospital wing with Madam Pomfrey for very long, as he tells the trio that: "Madam Pomfrey mended it in about a minute" - UK version pg 116. Neville can't have gone to tea because none of the Gryffindor fifth years saw him there as none of them were expecting him back at the dormitory that night, otherwise they would have questioned his absence when they went to bed (UK version pg 115). Any ideas? Rachel From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Sun May 9 05:45:46 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 05:45:46 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Why is it that Hagrid's first name is used so little?> > I expect someone has a pet theory waiting to be produced form the > airing cupboard.... Yes. >:) More alchemy. John Granger mentioned, in _The Hidden key to HP_, how the three stages of alchemy/Harry's soul purification etc. had characters corresponding accordingly: Black (sirius), White (albus), and .... Red (Rubeus), upcoming, to play an important part in a future book, theorizes Granger? Backup for this may be the fact that JKR told Robbie Coltrane secret background stuff on his character that we do not know yet. AJ (and for the poster who pointed out the hot-harry in ootp, Granger wondered if Luna was the moist/dampening/quenching influence who not only calmed Harry at the end of ootp but would do so more in the future...) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun May 9 10:41:49 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 10:41:49 -0000 Subject: Inaugural address and Mandy Croyance on Assumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97950 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > > A meritocracy has it's problems too. Who, on merit is best > > fitted to 'lead' the WW? Probably Dumbledore. But he's refused > > once already, condemning the WW to a weak, vacillating > > government. A government cannot be strong if the most > > powerful person in society is outside it, no matter how > > benevolent that person may be. > > > Pippin: > Whoa! Dumbledore was not outside the government. Besides > being one Fudge's advisers in the earlier days of his ministry, > he was also Supreme Mugwump (or Chairman) of the > International Confed. of Wizards and Chief Warlock of the > Wizengamot (the Wizarding High Court). He held those > positions until he was forced out by Fudge and his allies for > telling people something they didn't want to hear. And since they > didn't want to hear it, being Minister would have made no > difference. > Kneasy: Considerations on power and the implications thereof. Got involved in a thread on this last year, but another trip round the bay wouldn't go amiss. We've never been told how those at the top of the tree in the Ministry are chosen, though reading between the lines it seems that an individual is offered the job based on some sort of popular consensus. How that consensus is canvassed is not revealed, but it seems that the feelings of the wizard in the street do matter - witness Crouch Snr's fall from popularity. DD was offered the top job and turned it down. So why was DD offered the job in the first place? Well, there's his history of course; Grindelwald, forming the Order in the first Voldy War - obviously a good egg. The well-being of the WW is high on his list of priorities - any Dark Wizards on the prowl and DD's your man. And he's powerful; the most powerful wizard in the world, by all accounts. A compelling combination on his CV. But he says no. Consider the situation from the perspective of whoever is appointed as Minister. He's second choice and he knows it. He's always going to be looking over his shoulder; there's someone out there that the general public regard more highly and that person could become a focus for an opposition that could cause a lot of problems. There are a number of classic responses to this sort of situation, but let's look at two obvious ones. First, get him on side; demonstrate to the public that you have this persons support and good wishes. Hence the blizzards of owls that Hagrid mentions.Publicly seek his advice and opinions, "See? DD's been asked, he thinks this, so it must be OK. Yes?" It'd be during this 'consult and cooperate' period that DD would be honoured as Supreme Mugwump and Chief Warlock. Nice titles but not exactly involved in everyday policy-making. In fact an international body like like the ICoW is probably little more than a talking shop - most international bodies seem to go that way after a while. Time passes, those at the centre of government become a bit more confident as DD shows a disinclination to interfere much and generally keeps a low profile. But he's still powerful and still exerts influence. Worryingly, he's starting to say things that the Ministry policy-makers and their friends don't want to hear.Time to implement the second stage - marginalisation. Consult him less and less and use the press in a not-so-subtle "he's past it" campaign. This intensifies when DD doesn't seem to react until eventually they almost start to believe their own propaganda and remove him from his posts. Not very clever, that. 'Cos DD is still the most powerful wizard in the world and they could be heading for a fall. There are a couple of interesting parallels from real world English history: Wellington. He was instrumental in defeating the greatest threat of his time and for brokering the Treaty of Vienna, which resulted in the longest period of general European peace in history, though there were scuffles between France and Germany. He was immensely popular, of unbending rectitude (except with the ladies), didn't give a damn what anybody thought of him and was eventually brought into the government and became Prime Minister. This is the path DD didn't take. Now Cromwell. He was instrumental in defeating the threat to the idea of 'Government by Consent'. After the battles were over he intended to retire to the country, but remained immensely popular and influential. When the government proved untrustworthy and tried to neutralise the only counter to it's corrupt ambitions, he came back and threw them out, taking over himself. This is what the Ministry insiders feared from DD and may yet happen, though it's not probable. At the end of OoP Fudge has to face up to some uncomfortable truths; he's been living in his own little fantasy world, one where DD is a manageable irritation who can be subjected to the petty politicking of the Ministry without uncomfortable repercussions. In reality DD is the 800 lb gorilla. He can sit wherever he damn well pleases. It's highly likely that no Minister could prosper without at least the tacit approval of DD, even though he seems reluctant to get too involved in Ministry affairs. He's still powerful, and Fudge underestimated him. Too late now. Fudge is on the skids, the victim of his own blinkered self-regard. Kneasy From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 9 13:06:18 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 13:06:18 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "A.J." wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > > Why is it that Hagrid's first name is used so little?> > > I expect someone has a pet theory waiting to be produced form the > > airing cupboard.... > > Yes. >:) More alchemy. John Granger mentioned, in _The Hidden key > to HP_, how the three stages of alchemy/Harry's soul purification > etc. had characters corresponding accordingly: Black (sirius), White > (albus), and .... Red (Rubeus), upcoming, to play an important part > in a future book, theorizes Granger? Geoff: Well, yes..... and no... It doesn't really answer my question as to why Hagrid's name is used so little. We hear Sirius and Albus' names being bandied around quite a lot. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 9 13:39:21 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 13:39:21 -0000 Subject: HP, the Bible and parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97953 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" wrote: Lady McBeth: > JKR has said that there are Biblical parrelles in her books. Has > anyone considered that these may not be New Testament alignments. It > occurred to me as I was reading the thread about wand order that a > lot of the things that occur in HP are similar to occurrences in > Kings I and II. Solomen talking to the spirits for example > references Harry talking to the wand spirits in the graveyard in > GOF. Maybe I'm off base here, but perhaps we should take a closer > look at the OT. Geoff: First, I think you are referring to Saul, not Solomon, and the visit he paid to the Witch of Endor in 1 Samuel 28. I would agree with you though that many posters have assumed that the parallel reference is to the events of Easter and have wondered for myself whether that is necessarily so.... Second, it's interesting how many of us get a different spin on a particular topic. On this subject of Biblical parallels, I re-post something I wrote in message 78099 (just to save you looking it up the archive). It was part of a reply (to Kneasy of all people!) about Tolkien's religious stance and that of JKR. "I, as an evangelical Christian, was rather cautious about HP to begin with (mainly because I allowed myself to be influenced by other's opinions without investigating for myself) but have now taken the books and films on board and enjoy them and discussion thereof with great delight. I have sometimes used references from HP when discussing matters with my church Youth Group to underline certain aspects of belief and action and I become increasingly of the opinion that Harry is very much more like a Christian /believer/ than a /Christ figure/. For example, in PS, Dumbledore tells him that his mother's sacrifice left it's own mark ? "Not as a scar, no visible sign.... to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection for ever." This is some ways the Christian experience. Of course, you have to decide what you mean by Christian. George Carey, while still Archbishop of Canterbury, chided a TV announcer gently on one occasion by saying that he was confusing "Churchianity" with "Christianity" which is what a huge number of people do. If people say to me "You're religious aren't you?" my reply is "No, I'm a Christian". True Christianity is believing that Jesus was God taking on human form and sacrificing himself to save us to give us "protection for ever." It is more than rituals and rules, it is more that a set of rules for life or a religious orthodoxy, it is knowing that God lives within us personally. Again, to finish, Dumbledore points out to Harry in COS that what we are is a result of our choices, not our abilities and this again is part of the core of real Christian belief. Harry reminds me so much of myself in many ways when I was at that age, looking for answers, being impatient, not listening to wiser counsels, making a pig's ear of things but I believe that I finally reached decisions which have given me a full and satisfying life because I made the right choices at the right time. I am sure that many contributors to this group will snort and say "Rubbish" because they do not share my view of life - and they have a perfect right to do so. My point is that people who are at the stage of making choices for themselves at crucial moments could do far worse than looking at the advice Harry receives from all directions and the ultimate (and sometimes flawed) choices he makes." Harry could certainly be compared with some of the great Christians who worked to save the world around them and sometimes died as a result but Christ died and rose again in order to save people themselves, not the surroundings in which they were. There are also interesting parallels with Frodo when Gandalf says to him: "I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was /meant/ to find the Ring and /not/ by its maker. In which case, you also were /meant/ to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought." From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun May 9 13:43:56 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 07:43:56 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP and the Bible In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c435cb$ad50e690$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 97954 Geoff: I have sometimes used references from HP when discussing matters with my church Youth Group to underline certain aspects of belief and action and I become increasingly of the opinion that Harry is very much more like a Christian /believer/ than a /Christ figure/. Sherry Replies: That makes sense to me. I've had trouble with the idea of a 17-year-old being the Christ figure in the books. I think there are and will be Biblical parallels, but I think we may be surprised about the direction they go. Harry is almost too obvious. Yes, of course, the books are Harry, his story, from his point of view, but there are so many ways JKR can take us, and I don't know that it will be Harry as the ultimate sacrifice. Sherry G From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun May 9 13:58:51 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 09:58:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Order will be moving Headquarters Message-ID: <140.2909d1e1.2dcf931b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97955 In a message dated 5/9/2004 3:39:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Lynnette (snapesmate at hotmail.com) writes: > Actually, I think it's a > boy and a girl--Albus and Florence, for the only two people he ever > cared about. > > Carol, who wishes Snape really had twins, or rather that the twins > were canonical Florence? Florence who? Where is this Florence in the book? How did I miss this? I know some specualte the Agnes, mentioned as the St. Mungo's patient is his mother. ============== Sherrie here: Florence is the girl the spectre of Bertha Jorkins talks about in Dumbly's Penseive. She says (paraphrasing - book not to hand) that "he" hexed her because she'd teased "him" about seeing "him" kissing Florence behind the greenhouses. Some speculate that "he" is Snape - but since Sirius states that Bertha was a few years ahead of them in school, and since we now know the age gap between MWPPL&S and "Goldilocks", my money has shifted onto Lucius Malfoy (it used to be Sirius, actually). Especially if his was one of those arranged pureblood marriages, I doubt he would be pleased to have word of his extracurricular liaisons spread about the school by a nosy little gossip like Bertha. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 9 14:28:32 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 14:28:32 -0000 Subject: Inaugural address and Mandy Croyance on Assumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97956 Kneasy: > There are a couple of interesting parallels from real world > English history: Wellington. was > eventually brought into the government and became Prime Minister. > This is the path DD didn't take. > Hmm...::reads up on Wellington:: so Voldemort = Napoleon? Back from exile and just as dangerous as ever? Fascinating! I always forget that Boney gets a far more sinister press on the British side of the pond.But let us remember that Dumbledore's career isn't over. At one point Wellington said he would be "worse than mad" to consider himself fit to be prime minister. So maybe in Book 6 Dumbledore will be the promised new Minister of/for Magic, McGonagall will take over as Headmistress, Lupin will come back as DADA teacher and Head of Gryffindor House and instead of a new DADA teacher we'll get a new Transfiguration teacher. Professor Tonks, anyone? Pippin From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 14:43:55 2004 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 07:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP and the Bible Message-ID: <20040509144355.92946.qmail@web40005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97957 9May04 mcdee1980" wrote: "JKR has said that there are Biblical parrelles in her books. Has anyone considered that these may not be New Testament alignments. ..." Paula now: My thoughts exactly. But, I see HP as the baby who was saved with the help of an "outsider" (Petunia, a Muggle), grew up in an environment thinking he was one of "them", only to discover that he is a member of another ethnic group, and will somehow lead his people (The Good Wizards) to a "Promised Land". Sound familiar? Cecil B. DeMille, watch out! ~Paula Gaon Visit Beautiful and Fun Things: http://www.cafeshops.com/bft See the Magical Creatures at: http://www.cafeshops.com/bft/254718 "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 9 15:02:17 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 9 May 2004 15:02:17 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1084114937.12.86595.m25@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97958 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, May 9, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 16:41:21 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 16:41:21 -0000 Subject: Biblical Parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > If Harry is the Christ-figure in this story, he has to be the one to > sacrifice himself. (Not that he hasn't been putting himself on the > line all along.) > > vmonte You are right, of course you are right. If Harry is the Crist-like figure,which sure looks like it at the moment, he is the one to make an ultimate sacrifice. So, here I am trying to come up with the possible ways of survival for him. As I said before, I think that after sacrifice, the resurrection should happen. I am hoping that here Rowling will let the full resurrection occur. I have no clue how, though. Maybe as some posters stated in the earlier discussion on this topic, Harry's loved ones beyond the Veil will tell him that this is not his time yet and he has a lot of people who love him in this world and maybe Harry will be given a choice to come back . No matter how badly I want for Harry to survive at the end, I would prefer for him to die and be reunited with his loved ones, if the alternative will be for him to lose his powers. If he will have to go back to Muggle world, for me it will be the most cruel of all endings. (Sorry, Pippin! :o)) All people who love Harry live in WW. I hope he does not have to go back at the end. It would be fine, if at the end Wizarding and Muggle worlds willmerge, but Rowling stated in the chat that the breach was final, so I am hoping that if Harry lives, he is not alone at the end. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 16:59:55 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 16:59:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black Lives (was Janus and also Prophecy thoughts) Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > > > I keep thinking about this as well. Too many similarities between > what happened at the MoM to Sirius and the things JKR says in other > places. I know what she said in her interview re: killing Sirius, and > I used to be worried that he wasn't coming back, but after visiting > here, I really am convinced we haven't seen the last of him. > > As far as biblical similarities referred to above, wouldn't Sirius' > sacrifice also be the fact that he was *not* there at the MoM like HP > thought, but as soon as he found out HP thought he was there he went > there? HP thought he was saving Sirius and Sirius thought he was > saving HP. > Oh, Susan. I missed your post, when I wrote my previous one. Sorry! Yes, that would be and ending I will be much happier than Harry dying. Yes, I am too convinced (especially after last JKR chat) that Sirius will show up in one form or another. I don't know if JRK will make me completely happy by resurrecting Sirius in full flesh and blood, but it sure sounds good. :o) > And what about the references to Janus? Just the name (two faces) > equals deception, so maybe Sirius really did fake his death (with the > Order's help). I think (now) that it's a giant hint to us readers > that he's still alive, because why else include this information > about Janus that's sooo similar to the incidents surrounding Sirius' > disappearance at the MoM? The main thing that's really bugged me > about what happened there is that NO ONE knows (or rather, no one's > saying)exactly what the veil is, where it goes, what it does, where > it came from, etc., etc. I siriusly doubt JKR's going to just leave > the veil unexplained after taking the trouble to introduce us to it. I agree with you. I don't think that if Sirius was properly dead, JKR would allow him to come back, since she stated many times that in her world, "magic cannot bring dead people back" For reasons discussed here ad naseum I still believe that he may not be properly dead. It is likely that JKR will crash my belief in the next book, but till there... Since I don't want to believe that Dumbledore is so evil that he planned Sirius death, I may choose to believe that Headmaster instead helped fake his death . Who knows, maybe dear headmaster realised that Sirius really needs to feel useful for the Order and he can give him something to do, while others believe that Sirius is dead. > Also, I know some of you are concerned that time travel is going to > play a big part in the ending of the HP series, but I believe if it > was going to come into play to save Sirius (again) it would have been > done immediately after the trip to the MoM. As we've seen/read in > hundreds of stories, a person can't just go back in time and fix > whatever it is without a bunch of other things changing as a result. > At the very least, it's too unpredictable what things would get > changed as a result. So, although I don't think time travel will > figure into the Sirius problem, I do think there's more than meets > the eye re: his *disappearance* through the veil. > > "Susan" I do think that time travel will come back to hunt us again(although I would prefer that it would not) , but I doubt it will have anything to do with Sirius. I am more inclined to share the theory that Dumbleldore knows in advance what is about to happen from something time-travel related. Alla From hannah at readysolve.com Sun May 9 17:29:56 2004 From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 17:29:56 -0000 Subject: Harry- heir of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97962 > > Now I know that many people (me included) think that Harry is a > distant relative of Godric Gryffindor. And I don't think that Harry > being an heir of Slytherin means that he can't be an heir of > Gryffindor. On the contrary, I believes it's possible that he's an > heir of both of them (of course there's loads in the books that > point to him being an heir of Gryffindor). > > But enough about what I think. What do you think? I'm interested to > hear arguments for or against what I've said! > > Stacy What if he is the heir of all four founders? After all wizards are inbred to some extent. He is meant (presumably) to unite the houses and it could be an interesting twist. All we need now are HH and RR to get involved somehow. Khilari. From hannah at readysolve.com Sun May 9 17:32:14 2004 From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 17:32:14 -0000 Subject: small thing in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "humantupperware1" wrote: > I'm replying here to the post about Hagrid being in Knockturn > alley... > > Personally, what I would like to know is, He says he's buying flesh- > eating slug repellent because they are destroying his cabbages, but > why would a FLESH_EATING slug eat cabbages????? > > hhhmmmmmmmmm......... > > "human tupperware" Possibly it is the slug repellent that is flesh eating, ie. it eats the slugs. Either that or Hagrid has done some highly unusual gardening. Khilari. From keltobin at yahoo.com Sun May 9 17:47:08 2004 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 17:47:08 -0000 Subject: Seven Sins/Virtues in HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97964 Hello, I have been watching the group for a long time, but haven't posted in a while. I'm interested in recent postings referencing religious materials and applying them to the HP world. I thought I would share with you all an essay that I have been working on this week (yes, just fun). It isn't even close to being finished and I excluded some of my notes on the sins, as I am more interested in the virtues and their application. I would be interested in anyone's reaction or thoughts on it. Please be gentle. I haven't had my books for a while as they are all on loan to friends and my kids. Most discussions of the seven deadly sins relate to how the sins separate one from God or Godliness. Since the Harry Potter books seem to exclude the fundamentals of any particular religion, the first hurdle to understanding how the sins and virtues affect the Harry Potter themes and characters is to translate God into a Potterverse concept. This is more difficult than it appears. "God" in the Potterverse could be self-growth, which would fit the themes nicely for the most part. The second caveat is how the sins and virtues fit the books. Is it a "one sin/virtue per book" theme or do all the sins and virtues cover all of the books? Certainly, if one looks hard enough, one could find examples of every sin and virtue in every book. So, should we try to see what the prevalent sin/virtue theme of each book is and focus on that? It is certainly tempting, since that may give insight into the final two books in the series. It is also tempting because of the seemingly obvious relation of "seven sins to seven books." The most interesting tie in with the overall theme of the books is with the sin of Wrath. Wrath is not only anger, but anger that replaces all feelings of love. "Wrath is anger manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury." http://deadlysins.com/sins/anger.html Wow, sound like anyone we know? Voldemort is almost the embodiment of Wrath. Of course, I could argue Voldemort being guilty of any of the sins (well lust may be hard unless you remove it from it's sexual connotation and make it lust for power). However, I think Wrath is where the author is going with Volde. The idea that Harry can defeat him with a power he knows not fits right into this nicely. The seven virtues can also lend themselves nicely to the themes of each book. Working in order from Faith to Prudence, I can almost certainly see these themes translating to the series. 1. Faith - (belief, trust, fidelity, loyalty, conviction) - Many leaps of faith are taken. The first being Harry leaving with Hagrid. More noticeable is Harry's leap of faith entering Platform 9 3/4. 2. Hope - (desire, reliance, expectation) - Griffindor's sword as well as the appearance of Fawkes at the pinnacle of the fight between Harry and Tom Riddle would be an example of how this fits the second book. 3. Charity - generosity benevolence helpfulness mercy - Harry's mercy shown toward Petigrew/ Wormtail in PoA. Mercy is a major theme in the Shrieking Shack. - Dumbledore shows mercy and benevolence in allowing Lupin to teach at the school. Without this act of Mercy Harry may not have learned the Patronus charm. 4. Fortitude - (strength courage resoluteness endurance) - Strength of mind that allows one to endure pain or adversity with courage. - Harry taking part in the tasks and doing his best despite the odds shows great fortitude. It would have been easy for Harry to play the underdog and just "get by." - Harry's decision to not die crouched behind a headstone and to stand and die like a man is a great example of fortitude. Really GoF is filled with examples of this virtue. 5. Justice - (impartiality, fairness, equity, rightness, dispassion) - OoTP is the perfect book for this virtue. In the end justice is dealt to the Death Eaters and Harry and Dumbledore are shown to have been right to the Wizard World. - Dispassion is part of Justice. Doing what is right despite how it may hurt. This is extremely reminiscent of Dumbledore and how he is "ignoring" Harry. It also plays into DD's speech at the end about sacrificed countless unnamed faceless wizards for Harry (in other words a lack of the virtue of Justice). This brings us to the final two virtues. It is always speculation how they will fit the final books. However, they may give us a clue. 6. Temperance - (moderation restraint self-mastery frugality sobriety. Moderation and self-restraint, as in behavior or expression.) - Maybe Harry will have to master some of those raging teen angst feelings. 7. Prudence - (wisdom vigilance carefulness thoughtfulness discretion) - "constant vigilance" Well, that's all I have right now. I actually became so interested in this idea that I am writing a much longer essay on it. Hopefully, I will have my books back soon so I can hammer out the details with text (I feel like I have become the local HP lending library). From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun May 9 18:39:10 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 18:39:10 -0000 Subject: Harry- heir of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97965 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "khilari2000" wrote: > > What if he is the heir of all four founders? After all wizards are > inbred to some extent. He is meant (presumably) to unite the houses > and it could be an interesting twist. All we need now are HH and RR > to get involved somehow. > > Khilari. I think too that Harry is a possible heir of the four founders. If I remember well, it has been debated on this list nearly two years ago. Good luck if you search the archives! Amicalement Iris From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 20:21:25 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OWL EXAM CACULATIONS In-Reply-To: <1083878792.7056.15985.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040509202125.27009.qmail@web13524.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97966 Message: 8 Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 04:06:29 +0100 From: "John" Subject: Re: OWL EXAM CACULATIONS bboy_mn wrote: First let's put the wizards grades into a format that most U.S. citizens are familiar with A = O = Outstanding B = E = Exceeds Expectations C = A = Acceptable D = P = Poor F = T = Troll or Terrible In my day (he said croakily) we didn't use a curve, grades were stickly by percentage and with little mercy. To the best of my recollection- A = 100% to 94% (pass) B = 93% to 87% (pass) C = 86% to 80% (pass) D = 79% to 75% (just barely pass) F = below 75% (fail) Very few kids today could wtihstand a grading system like that. John: I agree about the percentage. However, I feel the pass rates are not as steep as said. When I sat GCSEs at 16 (4 years ago) I was told while doing mock papers, "You need at least 50 % to pass with a C grade." The percentage system below is what I use now at university and seems to fit what I was told in school. A = 70 % to 100 % B = 60 % to 69 % C = 50 % to 59 % D = 40 % to 49 % John.. Mo: Actually, when I was in grammar and high school, the percentages were the same - 94% and above was an A, etc. In college, 90+ was an A, 80+ was a B, etc. I only graduated a year ago, so, I am assuming they haven't changed since then. ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Sun May 9 11:16:51 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 11:16:51 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97967 > Geoff: > Actually, this leads me back to something which has puzzled for a > long time. > > Why is it that Hagrid's first name is used so little? Even in > situations where he is known personally, his first name is often > ignored.... adi here: Maybe that shows that Hagrid is a half-giant a race apart from humans. So calling him by his surname might be a convention. bye adi From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sun May 9 13:30:36 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 09:30:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: small thing in COS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E18E6D8-A1BD-11D8-98D7-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97968 HunterGreen wrote: > > <(I've also always found it odd that Tom Riddle and > > Hagrid knew each other personally when they were several years > > apart and presumably in different houses, although Tom could > > just have seen him as an easy patsy).> Because of his size, Hagrid stood out. Even when he was in school. He wasn't the normal type of kid who blended in with the rest. I'm sure there were all sort of whispers and mumbling about his giant blood. Everyone probably knew his name. The pure blood group was probably scandalized. I can see them pointing, laughing, and making snide comments. His love of monsters was probably common knowledge too. It would act as a proof that Hagrid wasn't human. As for Tom Riddle, he was also probably known by just about everyone too. In Dumbledore's words (paraphrased because I'm too lazy to look it up) "he may have been the best student that ever went to Hogwarts." I'm sure all the students knew him as the very intelligent, good looking prefect. I would think that most students would know all the prefects by name. I started attending a K - 12 school in 7th grade. Mostly one would know the students in your class, but certain upper class members (sport stars, prom queens, geniuses, class presidents, musical stars, club presidents etc.) would be known by many other students. I am going beyond the text a little. I'm sure that Riddle had it in for Hagrid just because he's part giant. I'm suspect that Riddle monitored Hagrid's activities, trying to gather evidence against him. Catching Hagrid with Aragog was probably not the first (or even the second or third) encounter between the two. Oh yes, I think they knew each other fairly well. Ivogun From dawnbenns at hotmail.com Sun May 9 16:47:03 2004 From: dawnbenns at hotmail.com (deeby8658) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 16:47:03 -0000 Subject: Small Things in COS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97969 human tupperwear wrote: deeby ponders: Perhaps it's the slug repellent that's flesh-eating?? deeby From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 9 21:08:38 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 21:08:38 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name/Knowing Tom Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97970 Having sat back and cogitated (cogitating on a Sunday? Sharp intake of breath!) for some time about Hagrid's name and his connections with Tom Riddle, I shall now try to pull together a few disconnected thoughts. In connection with him being know by Tom Riddle, who was a couple of years or so above him, my mind went back to my own schooldays. When I was 11, I went to a grammar school in Battersea, South London. It was a day school and there were about 500 pupils from the First Year up to the Upper Sixth. Obviously, most of my contacts were with guys in my own year - my own class - but I got to know a number of older pupils by sight and name and they would have known me. Why? Because there were areas where our lives overlapped. We may have lived in the same area. I certainly came to school on the same bus as one of the prefects at one period of time. We may have shared the same pursuits. I belonged to the Chess Club and the Debating Society among others and later on I joined the Cadet Corps. So, there were older pupils who I knew well enough to speak to. Later again, when I was in the Sixth Form and became a prefect myself, I got to know younger pupils' names perhaps because they were a pain in the backside or again through school activities. What about names? Close friends would be addressed by their first names or nicknames - I was known as "Scot" by one or two friends who didn't know the difference between a Scots accent and a North country one(!!!). Otherwise, surnames were used. Some of you will have guessed that my full first name is Geoffrey - which I detest; I have used the short form as long as I can remember. It used to be a joke when I was teaching that, if I went into the school office and was greeted by the secretary as "Geoffrey", my reaction would be "OK, what have I done this time?" Friends at my church still do this occasionally as a joke to gently wind me up. So, what is this to do with Hagrid? Someone suggested that Hagrid, like Tonks, dislikes his first name. I wonder whether, in fact, Tom used Hagrid's first name to wind him up and get him annoyed or upset. In other words, it's not an expression of friendship or acquaintance, it's Tom getting a kick out of getting at someone. From Hawkfalco at comcast.net Sun May 9 18:10:23 2004 From: Hawkfalco at comcast.net (hawkfalco) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 18:10:23 -0000 Subject: Harry- heir of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97971 stacya14 wrote: (respectfully snipped) >...all of a sudden a > thought hit me: surely Harry must be an heir of Slytherin. How else > would he be able to open the chamber? > But enough about what I think. What do you think? I'm interested to > hear arguments for or against what I've said! I respond: Like you I wondered at the possible blood connection, no matter how remote, between Harry and Tom and what that could mean to the story. It would be an interesting and dark twist to have these two powerful opposing wizards connected through Salazar's bloodline. Alas, my hopes were dashed when rereading Chamber of Secrets last week. In chapter 18 `Dobby's Reward' Dumbledore tells Harry,"You can speak Parseltongue, Harry, because Lord Voldemort- who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin- can speak Parseltongue." *sigh* My theory dashed. I figure if anyone is to know such things it would be Dumbledore. But I am still holding out for Harry being the heir of Gryffindor. Oh, well. I am sure that JKR has many more far more interesting twists in store for us. -Hawk From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sun May 9 19:57:32 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 15:57:32 -0400 Subject: HP and the Bible In-Reply-To: <000701c435cb$ad50e690$0400a8c0@pensive> References: <000701c435cb$ad50e690$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <1BDD4FEE-A1F3-11D8-B574-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 97972 Geoff: > I have sometimes used references from HP when discussing matters with > my church Youth Group to underline certain aspects of belief and > action and I become increasingly of the opinion that Harry is very > much more like a Christian /believer/ than a /Christ figure/. At this point in the HP saga, Fawkes, it seems to me, is much more a type of Christ than either Harry or Dumbledore. Besides the phoenix is the symbol of the resurrection, Rowling has attributed Fawkes with other Christ like abilities. Fawkes can carry heavy loads (burdens), heal wounds, lift heavy spirits (with his song), and dies (for Dumbledore). It is Harry's faith (in Dumbledore, admittedly) is what call Fawkes to his aid. It is Fawkes who can stand up to the the eyes of the serpent and provides the weapons to defeat the serpent. DD's true, grown up "army" is named after the Phoenix. Christians in the NT are pictured as warriors in Christ's army complete with armor, shield, and sword. A side note, shields seem to have some sort of symbolic importance. In CoS, Harry found Riddle's shield for some unnamed service. Later, In OoP, during an occlumency lesson, Snape is surprised when Harry uses the shield charm, because he didn't teach it to Harry for that purpose. It seems that that it was instinct not conscious thought that inspires Harry to use this charm. Later in the book, both Harry and LV utilize the shield charm. In contrast, DD transforms other object to act as shields. Is this use of shields another manifestation of the bond between LV and Harry? or is it more than that? Ivogun From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 21:58:33 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 21:58:33 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Snyder" wrote: > I was thinking about the prophecy earlier today (actually staring at part of > it because it's my screensaver)...the part that says "...and either must die > at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...". > That's always bothered me, because it seems to imply that Harry must kill > Voldemort, or Voldemort must kill Harry, because neither of them can live if > the other one is living...but they are, in fact, both living now (since > Voldemort was returned to human form in GoF). And then it occurred to me... > > What if "the other" is another person? > > Then the phrase could be interpreted as either Harry or Voldemort must die > at the the hand of The Other (another person/being/force), because neither > one of them can live if this other person/being/force is alive. And then > maybe the final battle isn't Harry vs Voldemort, it will mean that Harry and > Voldemort both do battle against some other person, and that one of them > must sacrifice himself, or both of them will die. I know that Dumbledore > says that the prophecy means that Harry must vanquish Voldemort, or vice > versa, but he's been wrong before...and the growing connection between Harry > and Voldemort might presage their need to (gulp!) join forces? > > Or have I just been staring at these words too long?... > > Jen Mo: Sorry I am responding to these posts so late - it has been a few days since I have checked my messages. Wow! Really interesting thoughts about the prophecy! I used to always wonder about the "two surviving at the same time" too.... That would really be an interesting twist if there was a third party, the "Other." I really like your thoughts on this. (It has given me something to ponder for a while ;o) Thanks! Now, who could that "Other" being/force be, I wonder? :o) ~Mo From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 9 22:19:18 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 22:19:18 -0000 Subject: Keeper of the Keys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97974 I hadn't really noticed it before, but in several recent posts regarding Hagrid, his title of Keeper of the Keys has been mentioned.In the New Testament, Simon Peter is given the title of Keeper of the Keys of Heaven. If we are going to follow this suggestion that Harry is a Christ figure, perhaps Hagrid stands for St. Peter, who first betrayed Jesus but then became the rock on which the church was built. Sylvia (who doesn't really believe a 17 year-old boy can be a Christ figure and is clutching at straws) From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 22:19:17 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 22:19:17 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97975 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Snyder" wrote: > I was thinking about the prophecy earlier today (actually staring at part of > it because it's my screensaver)...the part that says "...and either must die > at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...". > That's always bothered me, because it seems to imply that Harry must kill > Voldemort, or Voldemort must kill Harry, because neither of them can live if > the other one is living...but they are, in fact, both living now (since > Voldemort was returned to human form in GoF). And then it occurred to me... > > What if "the other" is another person? > > Then the phrase could be interpreted as either Harry or Voldemort must die > at the the hand of The Other (another person/being/force), because neither > one of them can live if this other person/being/force is alive. And then > maybe the final battle isn't Harry vs Voldemort, it will mean that Harry and > Voldemort both do battle against some other person, and that one of them > must sacrifice himself, or both of them will die. I know that Dumbledore > says that the prophecy means that Harry must vanquish Voldemort, or vice > versa, but he's been wrong before...and the growing connection between Harry > and Voldemort might presage their need to (gulp!) join forces? > > Or have I just been staring at these words too long?... > > Jen Mo: Sorry I am responding to these posts so late - it has been a few days since I have checked my messages. Wow! Really interesting thoughts about the prophecy! I used to always wonder about the "two surviving at the same time" too.... That would really be an interesting twist if there was a third party, the "Other." I really like your thoughts on this. (It has given me something to ponder for a while ;o) Thanks! Now, who could that "Other" being/force be, I wonder? :o) ~Mo From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 22:22:27 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 22:22:27 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Del replies : > Why not, but then I'd like to point out that this Other must > necessarily be not alive right now. Let's see : > > -the most obvious solution is that this Other is a baby to be born > soon. Then we'll see Harry having to kill a baby or die : does that > remind you of something ? > > - the Other could be some kind of reincarnate or ressuscitated > being. The possibilities are endless, starting with Salazar > Slytherin for example. > > - the Other is some kind of being coming to life spontaneously. We > know Dementors do that, but this one would have to be special, and I > don't see how that could be. Any other idea ? > > But what's for sure anyway is that this Other cannot be someone > currently alive or the Prophecy doesn't get any clearer than in the > Harry vs. LV version. > > Del Mo: Possibilities?... Maybe Dumbledore. Wasn't HE the only wizard LV ever feared? ~Mo From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun May 9 23:01:03 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 19:01:03 -0400 Subject: Why can't he be? Message-ID: <6B0F046F.48F27A64.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97977 In a message dated 5/9/2004 6:19:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "ladyramkin2000" writes: >Sylvia (who doesn't really believe a 17 year-old boy can be a Christ >figure and is clutching at straws) Sylvia wasn't the only one to say this, but it's the most recent. Why can't Harry be a Christ figure? I don't really have much religion at all, but from what I understand of religion, Christ was (is? Should I be talking about him in the present or past tense?), in simplest terms, a man who saved others through his suffering. Right? Or am I totally off base? With that understanding, Harry is a man. As the centaurs said, "This one's nearing manhood". He's a man who is saving the Wizarding World through his suffering. No one can deny he's suffered in this fight. I don't understand why alot of listees keep saying "A seventeen year old boy can't be a Christ figure". Is it the fact that he's seventeen that stops the belief? I find that very hard to believe. That even if he fights, sacrifices everything he has, and dies to save his world, he won't be able to be considered a Christ figure because he's seventeen. *shrugs* It just doesn't make any sense to me. Oryomai --Who's going to watch PS/SS on ABC now! From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Mon May 10 02:13:29 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 02:13:29 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name/Knowing Tom Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: big snip >Someone suggested that Hagrid, > like Tonks, dislikes his first name. I wonder whether, in fact, Tom > used Hagrid's first name to wind him up and get him annoyed or upset. > In other words, it's not an expression of friendship or acquaintance, > it's Tom getting a kick out of getting at someone. AmanitaMuscaria now : A bit like Dumbledore addressing Voldemort as Tom, then? It's establishing the relationship as one between not- equals. Friends use the first name or nickname, others use last name, strangers use title and last name, out of respect the honorific is used, but adults call children by their first name. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From catlady at wicca.net Mon May 10 02:44:27 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 02:44:27 -0000 Subject: Sirius's beard, September 1 is always Sunday, CMC's filk Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97979 Carol wondered in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/97574 : << why Sirius didn't have at least a foot-long beard after twelve years in Azkaban >> This has long been wondered. Years ago, I invented a theory that, not long before everything went pear-shaped, Sirius awoke in bed with a pretty witch who complained that his beard stubble was scratchy, so he promptly cast a permanent beard removal charm on his chin and hadn't gotten around to removing it. Steve bboy_mn joined a thread in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/97614 : << If the train ride is Sept 1, and the day after is always Monday, then logically, we have seen Sept 1 fall on a Sunday for every book. I'm not so sure we could consider this a flint, it's probably more like 'artistic license'. JKR starts the school year on a Monday so she can lay out the pattern of classes for the entire week which provides us with a framework and reference points, then later in the book, she can simply refer to classes and we know where in the course of a typical week we are. >> Suppose the wizarding world's calendar was adjusted by magic, so that the year is an even number of weeks long, so any date is on the same day every year ... it could be done by making each day a tiny bit longer than a Muggle day to consume the minutes us Muggles use to have 1.25 more days a year than they do ... it could be 13 months of 28 days each or 12 months with 30, 30, 31, in eacch quarter ... could either of those explain the dates on which Lupin transforms? And that could be combined with that other thread asking whether some preparatory magic is done on the kids while they ride the Hogwarts Express to school, because the train is carrying them from Muggle 1 Sept to wizarding 1 Sept. No, I don't believe a word of it either. CMC filked in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/97683 : << What is the capitol of Estonia? (...) Riga. >> IIRC the capital of Estonia is Talinn, and Riga is the capital of Latvia, and Vilnius is the capital of Lithuania, because all the Lithuanian names I ever heard end in -us, making me think it's a form of Latin. From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Mon May 10 03:32:38 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 03:32:38 -0000 Subject: Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97980 Sylvia: > I hadn't really noticed it before, but in several recent posts > regarding Hagrid, his title of Keeper of the Keys has been > mentioned.In the New Testament, Simon Peter is given the title of > Keeper of the Keys of Heaven. If we are going to follow this > suggestion that Harry is a Christ figure, perhaps Hagrid stands for > St. Peter, who first betrayed Jesus but then became the rock on which > the church was built. > > Sylvia (who doesn't really believe a 17 year-old boy can be a Christ > figure and is clutching at straws) Lady McBeth: Actually there are a lot of teens portrayed as "Christ figures" in literature! I remember because I think I was forced to read every single one during my high school career. Holden Caufield (sp?) in "The Catcher in the Rye", John Cotton in "Bless the Beasts and the Children" (Not sure if I have that title quite right it might be Bless the Beasts, Bless the Children), as well as one of the characters in John Knowles's "A Seperate Peace" are all considered by critics to be Christ figures and they are all characters in their teenage years. I do like the theory about Hagrid being a parallel to St. Peter. You might also be able to compare some other characters to the apostles. Fudge is a "doubting Thomas"; he is unable to believe until he sees with his own eyes. Rita Skeeter could be a Paul type character. She's not really involved in the story line, but shares the "truth" of the events at the end of GOF with the world. Paul if you remember, started out not believing and in fact persecuting the followers of Christ. BTW thank-you to the poster who pointed out that I was in fact thinking of Saul, not Solomon . . . had a little too much fun at the local pub before checking my email last night! Lady McBeth, who always reads too far into things . . . From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon May 10 03:36:27 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 03:36:27 -0000 Subject: HP and the Bible In-Reply-To: <20040509144355.92946.qmail@web40005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97981 mcdee198 wrote: > > "JKR has said that there are Biblical parrelles in her books. Has > anyone considered that these may not be New Testament alignments. ..." > Paula now: > My thoughts exactly. But, I see HP as the baby who was saved with the help of an "outsider" (Petunia, a Muggle), grew up in an environment thinking he was one of "them", only to discover that he is a member of another ethnic group, and will somehow lead his people (The Good Wizards) to a "Promised Land". Sound familiar? Cecil B. DeMille, watch out! > > ~Paula Gaon Now Eustace_Scrubb: And if we follow this particular parallel, the leader does not get to enter the Promised Land himself...which could leave us with a book 7 ending like this: "But," said Ron, and tears started in his eyes, "I thought you were going to enjoy our world, too, for years and years, after all you have done." "So I thought too, once. But I have been too deeply hurt, Ron. I tried to save the wizarding world, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Ron, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them. But you are my heir: all that I had and might have had I leave to you. But I will always bear the scar." I hope not, though. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Mon May 10 03:44:34 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 03:44:34 -0000 Subject: Christ Figures . . .multiple examples Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97982 I hate to bring this up, but we've been discussing the religious parallels for the past week or so and it hit me over the head, just after I hit the post button on my last offering. Time and time again we've seen sacrifices and temptation in the HP books. Don't hex me for this one, but . . . There are several characters that we have seen "rise from the dead", literally and figuratively. 1) Voldemort has, at the end of GOF, effectively risen from the dead. His followers were persecuted after his initial downfall. He is currently working on his "second coming". 2) Barty Crouch Jr.: the entire wizarding world thought Crouch had died in Azkhaban. He reappears in GOF alive and well until the Dementor's kiss 3) Fawkes has done it twice. Once in Dumbledore's office and later in the Ministry. He took the shot meant for DD and arguably saved the WW from certain doom. Of the three I've thought of, and there may be others, the argument for Crouch as JC is the weakest. I believe, however, that the argument for Voldemort is the strongest. It is almost as strong for him as the argument that can be made for Harry as a Christ figure. I'm working on that as you read . . . Lady McBeth, who apologizes for being long winded From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon May 10 02:59:06 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 02:59:06 -0000 Subject: FILK: When I Was a Lass Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97983 H.M.S. Dumbledore nears completion When I Was a Lass (PS/SS, Chap. 6) To the tune of When I Was a Lad, from Gilbert & Sullivan's H.M.S. Pinafore Text & MIDI at: http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/pinafore/web_opera/pn09.html Dedicated to Star Opal THE SCENE: King's Cross Station. Harry makes the acquaintance of the Weasley clan. MOLLY (& CHORUS): When I was a lass in the days of Ogg I met a lad and we commenced to snog I married Arthur and so fond were we That soon we had acquired a massive family (All manifested here in a great variety) We hail from the Burrow at St. Ottery's, That Catchpole clan of redheads known as the Weasleys CHORUS: We hail from the Burrow at St. Ottery's, That Catchpole clan of redheads known as the Weasleys MOLLY (& CHORUS): Now, Bill is our son of the eldest rank He countercurses mummies for the Gringotts Bank In Magizoology was Charles always best So he now studies dragons outside Bucharest (But he never brings his work home, and for that we're blessed) Now, this implies no negative But they've little role to play in future narrative CHORUS: Bill and Charles would us all upstage It's a good thing that the two of them are over-age PERCY (& CHORUS): And next in line on the cutting edge Just call me Percy with my Prefect badge There are some who claim that my mentality Is indicative of rentative-anality (Not to mention, too, his charming personality) I shall enforce each and every rule As a Prefect who has power gained at Hogwarts School CHORUS: Not hydrocephaly, but pigheadedness Is causing his condition of bigheadedness FRED AND GEORGE (& CHORUS): We are the pair known as George and Fred In the practices of pranksters we two forge ahead We're human Bludgers and we're Wizard clowns And you'll never see upon our face the slightest frown (They wear their brightest smile as they knock you down) Whenever you are struck by sorrow and grief You can always count on us for comical relief CHORUS: Some hi-jinxing jocularity Results in their persistent popularity RON (& CHORUS): We come at last to the final son A first-year student by the name of Ron Being raised in the shadow of five alpha-males Explains somewhat my tendency to flail (He `s doomed to lag behind us in our awesome trail) So all in all, if you can stand my shtik I'll sign on for all seven books as your sidekick CHORUS: Though Ron may seem a trifle bland Such qualities he has will soon be in demand GINNY (& CHORUS): My name is Ginny and because I'm ten Once the train has left, for me it's home again And though I may seem shy and sweet I've often forced my older brothers to retreat (As a prize, this year we'll send to her a toilet seat) And now you have met the family Of Molly, Ginny, Percy, twins and Ron Weasley CHORUS Quite close you'll become with the family Of Molly, Ginny, Percy, twins and Ron Weasley - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon May 10 10:26:58 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 10:26:58 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97984 I, Del, wrote : > > But what's for sure anyway is that this Other cannot be someone > > currently alive or the Prophecy doesn't get any clearer than in > > the Harry vs. LV version. Mo replied : > > Possibilities?... > > Maybe Dumbledore. Wasn't HE the only wizard LV ever feared? Del answers : But DD is still alive, and both Harry and LV can live while DD is alive. It doesn't seem to fit the Prophecy. Del From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon May 10 11:59:04 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:59:04 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore Swiping Harry's Memories? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97985 After viewing SS last night, I began wondering about a point I'd seen discussed here just a while back. In the hospital scene, Dumbledore tells Harry that, since what happened between Harry and Quirrell was a complete secret, the entire school knew about it. But, how could everyone know about it? Perhaps legilimency, but this seems to produce only bits and pieces of a particular scene, at best. Is it possible that Dumbledore made a point of placing Harry's memories of that night into his pensieve while Harry was unconscious, taking a look, and then put the memory back before Harry awoke? This leads to a similar point regarding what happened that night in Godric's Hollow. It seems logical that, needing to fill in the blanks, Dumbledore may have instructed Hagrid to "collect" Harry's memories of that night when he went to get Harry on Sirius' bike. He knew that Harry would never be able to recall the night on his own (he was far too young), but could count on Harry's stored memories to provide an accurate record of what occurred. In addition, keeping Harry's memories in his pensieve would ensure that Harry wouldn't have to relive the murder of his parents later on if some of these memories ever did decide to "creep" back in to his consciousness. Dumbledore's pensieve has come into play so many times before; it's clear it is an instrument he relies upon to store memories for many years to come (like his own memory of the prophecy). :: Entropy :: From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon May 10 13:45:25 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 13:45:25 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97986 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > > > Geoff: > > Actually, this leads me back to something which has puzzled for a > > long time. > > > > Why is it that Hagrid's first name is used so little? Even in > > situations where he is known personally, his first name is often > > ignored.... > > adi here: > > Maybe that shows that Hagrid is a half-giant a race apart from > humans. So calling him by his surname might be a convention. > bye > adi Meri adds: Prof. Dumbledore's first name is also rarely used. Hagrid, Madame Maxime, other professors, the Minister of Magic and many other people call him by his last name. In fact one of few people who I have ever heard call DD by "Albus" is, IIRC, Prof. McGonagal, at the begining of SS. (Most other teachers are also refered to by just their last names by students and other professors.) Why this is, though, I can't speculate. I would assume that calling DD by his last name is a term of respect, and for Hagrid...well, he's just Hagrid, isn't he? I mean, "Reubeus" seems awfully formal, and doesn't quite have the friendly ring to it that "Hagrid" does. Does it? Meri - ready to jump into her second summer of HPFGU memebership! From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon May 10 13:48:54 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 13:48:54 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore Swiping Harry's Memories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97987 :: Entropy :: wrote: > Is it possible that Dumbledore made a point > of placing Harry's memories of that night into his pensieve while > Harry was unconscious, taking a look, and then put the memory back > before Harry awoke? > > This leads to a similar point regarding what happened that night in > Godric's Hollow. > He knew that Harry would never be able to recall the night on his > own(he was far too young), but could count on Harry's stored > memories to provide an accurate record of what occurred. In > addition, keeping Harry's memories in his pensieve would ensure that > Harry wouldn't have to relive the murder of his parents later on if > some of these memories ever did decide to "creep" back in to his > consciousness. > :: Entropy :: Now Eustace_Scrubb: This is an interesting idea. Dumbledore does seem to have motive, means and opportunity to do something like this in almost every book. Two questions, though: first, it doesn't seem that DD could have kept Harry's memories of Godric Hollow in the pensieve, for Harry does in fact have memories of his parents' deaths that apparently began coming back into his consciousness during his early years with the Dursleys (the green flash that he assumed must have been the car crash), come a bit more to the surface after he gets his Hogwarts letter and Hagrid explains his background and by POA are brought fully into his mind by the dementors. The other question: how many people know about the pensieve and what it does? We know that Snape and Harry do, but did Harry tell anyone? Could Hagrid "collect" Harry's memories without the actual pensieve vessel? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 10 13:54:48 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 13:54:48 -0000 Subject: 3Q's for ESE!Lupin(now Like Me Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97988 > > Susan(me): > Where did the idea that Remus needs to be liked come from? I could > see someone describing PP like this, but not Lupin. Potioncat: I thought JKR herself once said that Lupin needs to be liked or needs to be accepted and his decisions are motivated by that need. And that it sometimes caused problems. Unfortunately, I can't find the quote.Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 10 14:23:42 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 14:23:42 -0000 Subject: The Order will be moving Headquarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97989 Lynnette asked: > > Florence? Florence who? Where is this Florence in the book? How > did I miss this? I know some specualte the Agnes, mentioned as the > St. Mungo's patient is his mother. > Potioncat: In DD's pensieve scene,in GoF, Bertha Jorkins had been hexed by a boy because Bertha had seen the boy and Florence kissing behind the greenhouse. There have been lots of candidates for the boy (Poor Florence, her reputation is ruined) The front runner seems to be Snape. It isn't known why this memory was important or how it fits in with the story. I think the connection is this: DD is recalling a time that Bertha's famous curiosity got her into trouble at Hogwarts. Later the grown Bertha's curiosity gets her into trouble with LV. Harry's curiosity is also dangerous and may get him in trouble at Hogwarts and with LV. We will go on to see that Harry is curious about Snape's pensieve and looks in, getting thrown out of the office by Snape. Then, allowing his curiosity about the door interfere with his occlumency lessons, he's led into trouble with LV. Although if DD had made the curiosity connection he might have done more to stop Harry. In another post, that I cannot find, someone offered that Florence was older than Snape. It was Bertha who was older. Potioncat From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 10 14:28:06 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 14:28:06 -0000 Subject: 3Q's for ESE!Lupin(now Like Me Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97990 > > Susan: > > Where did the idea that Remus needs to be liked come from? I could see someone describing PP like this, but not Lupin. << > Potioncat: > I thought JKR herself once said that Lupin needs to be liked or needs to be accepted and his decisions are motivated by that need. And that it sometimes caused problems. Unfortunately, I can't find the quote.< Pippin, twiddling with her roundt tuit : Royal Albert Hall Q & A http://www.mugglenet.com/jkr-royalalbert.shtml [...] I created Professor Lupin, who has a condition, which is contagious of course and so people are very frightened of him and I really like Professor Lupin as a character because he's someone that also has a failing, because although he is a wonderful teacher (one I myself would have liked to have had as a teacher) and a wonderful man, he does like to be liked and that's where he slips up. He's been disliked so often that he's always so pleased to have friends, so he cuts them an awful lot of slack. Pippin who maintains, naturally, that "wonderful" is not the same as "good" From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Mon May 10 14:48:57 2004 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 07:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP and the Bible Message-ID: <20040510144857.35853.qmail@web40007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 97991 10May04 Eustace_Scrubb wrote: "... Ron. I tried to save the wizarding world, and it has been saved, but not for me. ... But you are my heir: all that I had and might have had I leave to you. But I will always bear the scar. I hope not, though." Paula now: Humm..., Interesting scenario, and I too hope not. If I let my imagination wander, I could see Ron "taking the high ground" of The Promised Land (another parallel) and Harry, instead of being buried in an unknown place, simply moving on to other adventures and challenges. From infancy, his life has been full of struggles and IMHO, JKR will leave us to hang there. Frankly, this is the scenario I've always hoped for. That way, HP will always be alive in our imaginations. ~Paula Gaon Visit Beautiful and Fun Things: http://www.cafeshops.com/bft See the Magical Creatures at: http://www.cafeshops.com/bft/254718 "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon May 10 14:54:16 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 14:54:16 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97992 Geoff wrote: > Actually, this leads me back to something which has puzzled for a > long time. > > Why is it that Hagrid's first name is used so little? Even in > situations where he is known personally, his first name is often > ignored.... Eustace_Scrubb: Late into this one, I'm afraid, but anyway... In boys' boarding schools, at least as portrayed in literary terms, one's last name seems to be used as the familiar. In Tom Brown's Schooldays, for example, although the narrator always refers to "Tom," the other boys are almost always called by their last name, whether they're in Tom's class, older or younger, friend or enemy: "East," "Brooke," "Arthur" (whose first name is Geordie, I think). On the other hand, servants are called by their first name or some colorful nickname (Cooey, Thomas). In more recent history, the same phenomenon was still in evidence in American boarding high schools with roots in the British public school tradition as late as the 1970s (I was there). I don't know what the general practice is at Eton, Harrow and Rugby these days. But clearly Tom Brown is one literary antecedent for Harry Potter. So around Hogwarts, using Hagrid's first name might put him in the "servant" category...especially if he was addressed in that way by Dumbledore or other teachers. If Tom Riddle called him "Rubeus" when they were students he may have been saying "You're really not one of us." I might expect Malfoy to refer to him as "Rubeus" but he's probably not brave enough... Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From rredordead at aol.com Mon May 10 15:05:52 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 15:05:52 -0000 Subject: Harry stepping up to the plate. Was Harry heir of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97993 > -Hawk > It would be an interesting and dark twist to have > these two powerful opposing wizards connected through > Salazar's bloodline. > Alas, my hopes were dashed when rereading Chamber of > Secrets last week. In chapter 18 `Dobby's Reward' > Dumbledore tells Harry,"You can speak Parseltongue, Harry, because Lord Voldemort- who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar > Slytherin- can speak Parseltongue." > *sigh* My theory dashed. I figure if anyone is to know such things > it would be Dumbledore. But I am still holding out for Harry > being the heir of Gryffindor. Mandy here: I admire your faith in DD being not only right, but honest. I don't think he is either when it suites him. DD will tell Harry whatever DD thinks Harry wants, and needs to hear to keep Harry in the 'dark' about his destiny for as long a possible. Remember DD is fighting the urge to tell Harry the truth all through Harry's first year right up to the end of year 5, when DD finally sits Harry down to tell him what he should have told him years earlier. At the end of CoS, where DD tells Harry that he can speak Parseltongue because of LV's curse, Harry is having serous doubts about his own character and intentions, and thinks he may really belong in Slytherin House. This is dangerous thinking in DD opinion, as he has to keep Harry on the side of right, justice and good, away from 'bad' influences. The last thing DD needs if for a young Harry (and Harry was only 14) to begin to entertain thoughts of belonging in Slytherin. Especially as it is the House he really belongs in imo. (The Sorting Hat was going to put Harry in Slytherin before he asked not to be.) If Harry was in Slytherin House he would be far more difficult to control and more likely to be seduced by the Dark side. The transference of LV powers to Harry is a very convenient way for DD to let Harry think he's not really bad but was 'made' that way. 'Oh, it's not you fault' excuse. Well, no one is born bad, and circumstances help influence our choices. Whether Harry likes it or not, he has Dark as well as Good Magic in him, in large amounts, and if he doesn't learn to embrace the Dark (as well as the Good) and learn to control it, it will begin to control him. As we grow we being to understand that 'It's not my fault' just doesn't cut it any longer and we have to step up and take responsibility for who we are, and what we do. I think DD is just beginning to realize the mistakes he has made in keeping Harry in the Dark for too long. So DD is telling Harry what her needs to hear, and I wouldn't, if I were you, discount your theory just yet. I for one think Harry is the heir of both Slytherin and Gryiffindor. He was able to open the Chamber of Secrets and pull the Gryffindor Sword from the Stone...er..sorry, hat. Cheers Mandy From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 10 15:42:39 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 15:42:39 -0000 Subject: Harry stepping up to the plate. Was Harry heir of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97994 > Mandy here: > He was able to open the > Chamber of Secrets and pull the Gryffindor Sword from the > Stone...er..sorry, hat. > Okay, I haven't read/studied anything about King Arthur since I was an undergrad, but I really like this comparison of HP with King Arthur. I know there are lots of variations on the tale, and that plenty of people have added to and modified the myths/legends, but KA, like HP, didn't know who he was until it was time for him to know. He had an evil half-sister (Bella?) and an evil nephew (Voldie?) who were plotting his defeat. And IIRC, I think Morgana came around at the very end, which reminds me of Bella being so shocked by Voldie's half-blodded-ness. Maybe (though I really doubt it) Bella will come around to HP pov, particularly since her beloved Voldie is a half-blood as well. And this isn't even touching on all the connections the tales of KA has to Christ and the bible, or obviously, DD as Merlin. So if anyone out there knows what I'm talking about (obviously in much greater detail) I'd love to hear about it! Cheers! Susan (who hasn't read Mists of Avalon yet, though hopes to do so before book 6 comes out, but who has read The Dark is Rising series, which is great for all you parents out there who want to keep your kids reading while they're waiting for the next HP book). From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 10 16:23:48 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:23:48 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: Eustace_Scrubb: > So around Hogwarts, using Hagrid's first name might put him in the > "servant" category...especially if he was addressed in that way by > Dumbledore or other teachers. If Tom Riddle called him "Rubeus" when > they were students he may have been saying "You're really not one of > us." I might expect Malfoy to refer to him as "Rubeus" but he's > probably not brave enough... Geoff: This seems to link with what I said in message 97970 where I suggested that TR was using the name Rubeus deliberately to wind Hagrid up and, in view of the circumstances on which he is using it, I think he is also trying to frighten Hagrid about the likely consequences of "shopping" him over Aragog. From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon May 10 16:27:49 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:27:49 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore Swiping Harry's Memories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97996 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > :: Entropy :: wrote: > > > Is it possible that Dumbledore made a point > > of placing Harry's memories of that night into his pensieve while > > Harry was unconscious, taking a look, and then put the memory back > Now Eustace_Scrubb: Two questions, though: first, it doesn't seem that DD could have kept Harry's memories of Godric Hollow in the pensieve, for Harry does in fact have memories of his parents' deaths that apparently began coming back into his consciousness during his early years with the Dursleys (the green flash that he assumed must have been the car crash), come a bit more to the surface after he gets his Hogwarts letter and Hagrid explains his background and by POA are brought fully into his mind by the dementors. Entropy again: I thought about this, too. Dumbledore might only have asked for everything that happened leading up to Voldemort's AK curse (this would be the most crucial information), so the green flash would be where Harry's *remaining* memories actually begin. As for the memories of his parents' deaths (particularly his mother's screaming), I 'm not sure if Harry really hears this as a result of his own memory, or as a result of something "generated" by the dementors. I don't recall him actually remembering any screaming before the dementors came along. > The other question: how many people know about the pensieve and what it does? We know that Snape and Harry do, but did Harry tell anyone? Could Hagrid "collect" Harry's memories without the actual pensieve vessel? And Entropy again: I don't think Dumbledore has tried to keep the pensieve a secret. Dumbledore keeps it among his various office "instruments", never really hiding it. I've always assumed that Harry, being raised as a muggle would never have heard of pensieves, but someone like Arthur and Molly Weasley probably would have. And IIRC, the only thing needed for the actual collection of memories is a wand; the pensieve is really a means of storing and accessing these memories later on. :: Entropy :: From caesian at yahoo.com Mon May 10 16:41:51 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:41:51 -0000 Subject: Christ Figures . . .multiple examples In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97997 Lady McBeth wrote: > There are several characters that we have seen "rise from the dead", > literally and figuratively. > 1) Voldemort has, at the end of GOF, effectively risen from the > dead. His followers were persecuted after his initial downfall. He > is currently working on his "second coming". > 2) Barty Crouch Jr.: the entire wizarding world thought Crouch had > died in Azkhaban. He reappears in GOF alive and well until the > Dementor's kiss > 3) Fawkes has done it twice. Once in Dumbledore's office and later > in the Ministry. He took the shot meant for DD and arguably saved > the WW from certain doom. > Caesian responds: And yet none of those were truly dead (or, in LVs case - it could perhaps be argued he is not truly alive - I wouldn't, but it could). If we extend our resurrection parallels to the series, it is noteworthy that Harry goes through a certain pattern of trials at the culmination of each book - and he always "dies". For every climactic scene, Harry must first travel beneath the earth or into the world of the dead - "miles under the school" through Fluffy's trapdoor, "under the lake" to the Chamber of Secrets, under the Whomping Willow to see a "dead" man in PoA, to a graveyard in GoF, and into the bowels of the DoM to the "death chamber" in OotP. And in each of these scenes, he "dies" - everything goes black as he struggles with Quirrell!Voldemort for the stone, he is literally killed by Basilisk venom in the chamber, but resurrected by Fawkes, he dies at the hands of 100 dementors in PoA, in GoF he very nearly dies, and Cedric is killed, and of course he nearly dies in the DoM, sees Sirius die - and when he is possessed by LV, he "knows" he is dead. John Granger - who's book The Secret Key to Harry Potter has been cited by other posters on this list - does an excellent job of breaking the Chamber of Secrets in particular down to the basic elements of a Passion Play - it is quite convincing. (There's also some nice insight into the Alchemy references!) I would agree that in each of these climactic scenes, the protagonist, Harry, is the most Christ-like figure because *we* identify most with him *at those moments* - and thus we also experience the passion of his struggle, suffering, death and resurrection. Caesian From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 10 17:23:39 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 17:23:39 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name - More names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" > wrote: > > > > > Geoff: > > > > > > Why is it that Hagrid's first name is used so little? Even in > > > situations where he is known personally, his first name is often > > > ignored.... > > adi here: > > > > Maybe that shows that Hagrid is a half-giant a race apart from > > humans. So calling him by his surname might be a convention. > > bye > > adi > > Meri adds: > Prof. Dumbledore's first name is also rarely used. .... I would > assume that calling DD by his last name is a term of respect, and > for Hagrid...well, he's just Hagrid, isn't he? I mean, "Reubeus" > seems awfully formal, and doesn't quite have the friendly ring to it > that "Hagrid" does. Does it? > > Meri bboy_mn: More fuel for the fire. Hagrid tells Harry to call him 'Hagrid' when they first me in the shack by the sea. After introducing himself, he writes a owl to Dumbledore and signs it simply 'Hagrid'. The book's narrator always refers to him as just Hagrid. So, I think we simply have someone who prefers to be called by their last name, much like Tonks. Also, if your name was Rubeus, what would your most like nickname be? "Ruby" perhps? Not a very manly name for a giant. So, once again, I think Hagrid just prefers plain old 'Hagrid'. Also, Hagrid is one of those universal type names, it works just as well for a first name as it does for a last. Of topic thoughts on names - How many people call Sirius Black by 'Sirius', and how many people call Remus Lupin by 'Lupin'. I think quite a few; most probably, a majority. Any thoughts as to why we are familiar and friendly enough with Sirius to call him by his first name, yet, despite his warm friendly demeanor, we are more inclined to refer to Lupin by his last name? Just a thought. bboy_mn From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Mon May 10 17:27:10 2004 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 17:27:10 -0000 Subject: The Map, the Twins, the Rat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 97999 Suzanne: > I have long wondered how Fred and George learned how to manipulate the map with 'I solemnly swear I am up to no good'. > > I recently had this thought: could it be possible that Scabbers conspired to tell the twins how the map worked? Tcy: I've often wondered how the twins managed it, also...but I doubt that it was from Scabbers or Peter. He would risk exposing himself on the map if the twins learned how to operate it. I think it more likely Peter didn't know they had it or that he even hampered the Twins efforts to solve it. But wait, a light bulb just went off. How about if Peter was the one who had the map? Peter is using the map for various deeds at school during term and somehow the Twins stumble upon it. Peter would immediately transform into a rat so as not to be discovered - but not before 'managing his mischief'. The Twins find the active map and the rest is history. Hmmmm....could be. Tcy (who realizes that original theories are few and far between on this list - so my apologies to whomever likely came up with this one first) From caesian at yahoo.com Mon May 10 17:32:12 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 17:32:12 -0000 Subject: Fawkes Fidelius? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98000 The nature of information that can be kept by the Fidelius charm (#97859) has me thinking about Fawkes the Pheonix: But first, so as not to repeat things you already know, I've omitted details available elsewhere - For background information about Fawkes: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/fawkes.html For ties between Fawkes and Gryffindor: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-fawkes.html (PoA The Marauder's Map UK HB 152)*my emphases* ... Well, of course, You-Know-Who wasn't an easy person to hide from. Dumbledore told them [the Potters] that their best chance was the Fidelius Charm." 'How does that work? ... Professor Flitwick cleared his throat. 'An *immensely complex* spell,' he said squeakily, 'involving the magical concealment of *a secret* inside a single, *living soul*. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find - unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You- Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, *not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting-room window!*' On the list recently, it has been suggested that a recurrent cycle occurs in the WW, of evil vanquished only to be replaced by another evil - for example, Gindelwald vanquished by DD only to be replaced by Lord Voldemort. Further, that the knowledge or ability to vanquish this recurrent evil is also passed down - perhaps even through a Slytherin vs. Gryffindor saga. In another thread, we've been discussing the "Other" of the prophesy - that the prophesy may in fact refer to a third party. If taken literally, neither the Dark Lord or the One with the Power to vanquish him can live while this Other does. What if Fawkes is secret keeper for the knowledge or ability to destroy this recurrent evil, perhaps from Gryffindor (or before)? Fawkes provided the core feather for the wands of Tom Riddle and Harry Potter, and only those two wands. And recall the emphasis that was placed upon the following : "the wand chooses the wizard". If Fawkes chose Harry and Tom, perhaps this is because of some ability to understand the recurrent roles of the Dark Lord and the One. Also, Mr. Ollivander wrote to DD immediately after Harry purchased "the second wand". As if confirming Harry as the One of the prophecy. (In terms of the "Other", Fawkes might arguably not be living *now* in the incarnation that is specified in the prophecy.) Fawkes is the only character in the book to acheive actual resurrection - and the Pheonix, like the Unicorn, is a symbol of Christ - striking fear into the heart of the unpure, but courage and peace into the heart of the just. If the cyclical nature of this saga is really true, I wonder if the vanquishment of LV is a paltry goal for the series as compared to breaking this cycle of evil. I don't propose that evil can be irradicated from the WW - but wouldn't Dumbledore have considered how to finally retire with his woolly socks and hot chocolate after facing Grindelwald, Voldemort, and who knows who is waiting in the wings? Perhaps this is why merely killing Tom would not satisfy him, and the gleam refers not to vanquishing Tom Riddle, or even Lord Voldemort, but the Dark Lord - a recurrent evil. Caesian From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 10 13:42:37 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 13:42:37 -0000 Subject: Draco & The New Death Eaters - Harsh Realities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98001 "gregory_lynn" wrote: > What is it that Phineas Nigellus' portrait says to Harry, that the > difference is that when Slytherins get in a tight spot they do what > they have to do to save their skins? > > Yeah, Draco will turn in a heartbeat to save his miserable little > neck. Potioncat: I looked up the quote to make an argument about that. I'm not sure my point is supported, but I saw something else. OoP chapter 23, p 494 (US Scholastic) Harry is packing his bags to leave Grimmauld Place after the visit to St Mungos to see Arthur. "I thought," said Phineas Nigellus, ..."that to belong in Gryffindor House you were supposed to be *brave?* It looks to me as though you would have been better off in my own house. We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." Of course, I think PN's intent is to taunt Harry, later in this conversation he gives him a message from DD. But this also reiterates Harry's belonging in Slytherin. Potioncat From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Mon May 10 17:45:30 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 10:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do you think there is more to Voldie's story? - new thought about ancient curses In-Reply-To: <1083992315.10652.79974.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040510174530.82379.qmail@web13525.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98002 We all know that the countercurse that saved Harry was an ancient one. His mother died saving him. Well, do you think there could be another acienct curse, that LV forgot about, that is the exact opposite? I.E. LV killing his father will have some sort of a rebound effect, opposite of the one Harry's mom bestowed on him. They might BOTH have an ancient charm upon them that will be, obviously, Harry's strength, and LV's weakness. ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Mon May 10 18:01:06 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:01:06 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name - More names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98003 This whole discussion of Hagrid's name has been very interestig, and I don't really have much to add except a question. What views do you take when you combine the use of Hagrid's last name with Dumbledore's incessant insertion of "professor" when Harry does the same with Snape? Anyone have any views on the discrepancy in the way Dumbledore refers to Lord Thingy? He tells someone--McGonagall I think--that we should use the proper names for things, and in doing so refers to Lord Thingy as Voldemort. But then, when facing him directly, Dumbledore calls him Tom. I don't think it's a respect thing, or a button-pushing thing, but a teacher-student thing. I think Dumbledore is trying to reach the boy that was Tom Riddle before there ever was a Lord Voldemort. Of course, if this is true, it means that the boy inside Voldemort *can* be reached which would imply some sort of temporal ambiguity. From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon May 10 18:34:46 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:34:46 -0000 Subject: In essence divided. What was left of Voldy's humanity is trapped in H ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98004 vmonte: Someone recently mentioned the "in essence divided" comment by DD. Could a part of Voldemort, aside from certain talents, be inside Harry? Is it possible that when Voldemort attacked baby Harry that he lost whatever was left of his humanity? Could a part of Tom be inside Harry? Didn't Harry once comment that the name Tom Riddle seemed familiar, like an old friend he had as a child? Is it possible that Lily's spell tore Voldemort's soul/essence literally in half? Could Tom have been absorbed into Harry? vmonte From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon May 10 14:48:05 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 14:48:05 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore Swiping Harry's Memories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > :: Entropy :: wrote: > > > Is it possible that Dumbledore made a point > > of placing Harry's memories of that night into his pensieve while > > Harry was unconscious, taking a look, and then put the memory back > Now Eustace_Scrubb: Two questions, though: first, it doesn't seem that DD could have kept Harry's memories of Godric Hollow in the pensieve, for Harry does in fact have memories of his parents' deaths that apparently began coming back into his consciousness during his early years with the Dursleys (the green flash that he assumed must have been the car crash), come a bit more to the surface after he gets his Hogwarts letter and Hagrid explains his background and by POA are brought fully into his mind by the dementors. Entropy again: I thought about this, too. Dumbledore might only have asked for everything that happened leading up to Voldemort's AK curse (this would be the most crucial information), so the green flash would be where Harry's *remaining* memories actually begin. As for the memories of his parents' deaths (particularly his mother's screaming), I 'm not sure if Harry really hears this as a result of his own memory, or as a result of something "generated" by the dementors. I don't recall him actually remembering any screaming before the dementors came along. > The other question: how many people know about the pensieve and what it does? We know that Snape and Harry do, but did Harry tell anyone? Could Hagrid "collect" Harry's memories without the actual pensieve vessel? And Entropy again: I don't think Dumbledore has tried to keep the pensieve a secret. Dumbledore keeps it among his various office "instruments", never really hiding it. I've always assumed that Harry, being raised as a muggle would never have heard of pensieves, but someone like Arthur and Molly Weasley probably would have. And IIRC, the only thing needed for the actual collection of memories is a wand; the pensieve is really a means of storing and accessing these memories later on. :: Entropy :: From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Mon May 10 18:54:52 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:54:52 -0000 Subject: Dursleys/Leaders Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98006 This is just something I noticed in discussing something with my wife. If you switch the syllables in Dursley, you get Leydurs or leaders. Is it possible that the Dursleys are, metaphorically speaking, representative of leaders? Specific leaders perhaps, or a more general "world leaders" or "leading citizens"? From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 10 18:56:50 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:56:50 -0000 Subject: Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98007 "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > I hadn't really noticed it before, but in several recent posts > regarding Hagrid, his title of Keeper of the Keys has been > mentioned.In the New Testament, Simon Peter is given the title of > Keeper of the Keys of Heaven. If we are going to follow this > suggestion that Harry is a Christ figure, perhaps Hagrid stands > for St. Peter, who first betrayed Jesus but then became the rock > on which the church was built. > > Sylvia (who doesn't really believe a 17 year-old boy can be a > Christ figure and is clutching at straws) Siriusly Snapey Susan: Just a weeee bit of nitpicking here. I think I'd classify what Peter did as *denying* Christ, rather than betraying him. At least, it's Judas I typically think of as the betrayer. As for Harry as a Christ figure, I'm with others who've speculated that Harry might more likely be seen as "the everyman" on a Christian journey, but not as the Christ figure himself. Those who've argued for DD or even Fawkes in that role make a lot of sense to me. Siriusly Snapey Susan From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Mon May 10 19:45:30 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 19:45:30 -0000 Subject: Unity/Division and Fluffy/Cerberus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98008 I've been doing a little examination of the examples of unity and division in the books as part of a little theory I've been thinking about, and it occurred to me that most of the beasts Hagrid has trouble with are mixed breeds. Centaurs, Hippogriffs, Thestrals, Unicorns, they all are--or at least seem to be--the product of breeding different species. Even blast ended skrewts are the result of interbreeding fire crabs and manticores. So I got to wondering about Fluffy and looked up the obvious Cerberus reference. I found this: In Greek mythology, the three-headed watchdog who guards the entrance to the lower world, the Hades. It is a child of the giant Typhon and Echidna, a monstrous creature herself, being half woman and half snake. Originally, the dog was portrayed having fifty or hundred heads but was later pictured with only three heads (and sometimes with the tail of a serpent). Cerberus permitted new spirits to enter the realm of dead, but allowed none of them to leave. Only a few ever managed to sneak past the creature, among which Orpheus, who lulled it to sleep by playing his lyre, and Heracles, who brought it to the land of the living for a while (being the last of his Twelve Labors). In Roman mythology, the Trojan prince Aeneas and Psyche were able to pacify it with honey cake. (See also: Garm.) Here: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/c/cerberus.html I find it quite interesting that Cerberus is the offspring of something that is half serpent. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 10 15:59:38 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 15:59:38 -0000 Subject: Draco and The New Death Eaters. Was: Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98009 snipping, of course..... > Sigune here: > snip > In any case it has always struck me that the Slytherins are a kind of > outcasts at Hogwarts, despite the fact that they are purebloods. I > don't know very well how to formulate this... I mean, Slytherin is, > academically speaking, a 'good' house, is it not? It is successful as > a unit. And then there is the fact that it is mostly composed of the > offspring of wizards who rank rather highly in the WW. Yet it has a > bad reputation and the other houses band together against it. > Potioncat: This reminds me of lawyers. Lawyers have a "bad reputation" on the one hand, and are respected on the other. I would think there are students who although not like Draco, are very proud to be in Slytherin. It is a house of ambition and ambition itself is good. But I'm sure all of them suffer from the stereotype. Sigune: >snip< A student sorted into Slytherin would have no other choice than > to band together with the likes of Draco Malfoy (yuck!) because there > do not seem many other options. I don't know of any canon evidence > that shows Slytherins mixing with people from other houses (but > PLEASE correct me if I overlooked stuff). Potioncat: There isn't any canon evidence that I know of either. It may not show up in canon because Harry is unaware of it. (And therefore so are we.) He doesn't mix with other houses, in fact, I hardly think he knows anyone who doesn't play Quidditch. Ginny seems to know people from other houses and Hermione at least knows who people are. I would guess that most of the houses have some mixing and I would have to think that would be some who mix with Slytherin. There is a big rivalry between Slytherin and Gryffindor and therefore, possibly less or no mixing there. Sigune: > What I want to get to is - apart from Draco Malfoy, who clearly > thinks he is better than anyone else, I think a number of Slytherins might actually feel inferior in a way. Or their pretended superiority might be a reaction against their forced seclusion as a group. Potioncat: Yes, and I think the description of Theo Nott and the other boy go along with that. Both are on the edge of the Malfoy-Crabbe-Goyle circle and seem quiet and unassuming. Almost as if they are trying to be invisible. Sigune: > Snape has done a great job of boosting the Slytherins' self-esteem, > seeing that under his guidance they won both the House and Quidditch Cup seven years in a row prior to Harry's arrival. Potioncat: And Harry came along and the cat was in the pixies! We always see Slytherins cheating, I find it hard to believe they would have been so successful so long by cheating. (Although, where quidditch is concerned, Snape and McGonagall have trouble staying pure.) I may have snipped this, or it may have been another post altogether, but someone commented that the other houses side against Slytherin when they play Gryffindor. I'd like to see how the house loyalty falls in other games. I know my husband sides with the team who's winning will best help his team earn the highest standing. So there may be that going on as well. So that Hufflepuffs may prefer Ravenclaw to beat Gryffindor if that will help Hufflepuff move up. (I knew I shouldn't try to explain this!) Sigune: It seems to me that IF anyone has influence over the Slytherins, it would be Snape, and I can't imagine he would let his students join the Death Eaters if he can prevent it. > So, I guess I am suggesting that I don't think Snape will find > himself in a situation where he has to really *fight* his own > students, though he may have to use his persuasive skills (wonder > what *they* are, LOL) at some point. Potioncat: I can't see it either. I just can't see how he could help it. Unless his option is to save the "good" ones and let the Malfoy-type fend for themselves. It seems only a handful of students were chosen for Umbridge's squad, and while I think they were all Slytherin (do we know that?) it certainly wasn't all of the Slytherins. And we see Snape being "respectful" to her authority without supporting her. That had to be obvious to all the students in his house and must have made an impression. And I'm with you, I'm sure Snape has his methods of persuading Slytherins! (And of course the twins as well.) Potioncat who responded to this post before but had more time now. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 10 20:07:28 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:07:28 -0000 Subject: Christ Figures . . .multiple examples In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98010 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" wrote: Lady McBeth: > There are several characters that we have seen "rise from the dead", > literally and figuratively. > 1) Voldemort has, at the end of GOF, effectively risen from the > dead. His followers were persecuted after his initial downfall. He > is currently working on his "second coming". Geoff: I'm not even sure he has "effectively" risen from the dead... '"We are not playing hide-and-seek, Harry," said Voldemort's soft, cold voice, drawing nearer, as the Death Eaters laughed. "You cannot hide from me. Does this mean you are tired of our duel? Does this mean that you would prefer me to finish it now, Harry? Come out Harry... come out and play, then... it willbe quick... itmoght even be painless... I would not know.... I have never died..."' (GOF "Priori incantatem" pp.574-75 UK edition) >From the lips of the man himself.... I certainly would not draw any parallels between Voldemort and Christ. Possibly between V and Sauron who also became a spirit of malice and was unbodied after the downfall of Numenor, except that he was a Maia and not human. Lady McBeth: > 2) Barty Crouch Jr.: the entire wizarding world thought Crouch had > died in Azkhaban. He reappears in GOF alive and well until the > Dementor's kiss Geoff: I presume he comes on your figurative list because,as you say, he hadn't died at that point in time. "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated". Lady McBeth: > 3) Fawkes has done it twice. Once in Dumbledore's office and later > in the Ministry. He took the shot meant for DD and arguably saved > the WW from certain doom. Geoff: I can't think of any constructive comment I can make on this one. However, I return to the observation I have made before that Harry is very much more like a Christian believer than a Christ figure. Coming from my position as a Christian (and this might possibly be the case with JKR also), I cannot conceive of a Christ figure in the characters because Christ was not a mere human - he was God in human form. Our WW folk are, like those of us in the Real World, imperfect, making the wrong guesses and choices but hopefully most are like Harry, trying to get through in one piece and keeping their principles and consciences intact; a bit like Frodo (who amazingly needed Gollum to fulfil his task) or Christian in "The Pilgrim's Progress". From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 10 18:20:22 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:20:22 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name - More names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98011 "gregory_lynn" wrote: I don't think it's a respect thing, or a button-pushing thing, but a > teacher-student thing. I think Dumbledore is trying to reach the boy > that was Tom Riddle before there ever was a Lord Voldemort. > > Of course, if this is true, it means that the boy inside Voldemort > *can* be reached which would imply some sort of temporal ambiguity. Okay, whaddaya mean temporal ambiguity? Why can't "Tom" (specifically) be reached, as was mentioned earlier, perhaps not through love but through mercy? What temporal thing am I missing? Susan :0) From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon May 10 21:06:49 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 21:06:49 -0000 Subject: Christ Figures . . .multiple examples In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98012 Geoff wrote: > ..I return to the observation I have made before that Harry is > very much more like a Christian believer than a Christ figure. Coming > from my position as a Christian (and this might possibly be the case > with JKR also), I cannot conceive of a Christ figure in the > characters because Christ was not a mere human - he was God in human > form. Our WW folk are, like those of us in the Real World, imperfect, > making the wrong guesses and choices but hopefully most are like > Harry, trying to get through in one piece and keeping their > principles and consciences intact; a bit like Frodo (who amazingly > needed Gollum to fulfil his task) or Christian in "The Pilgrim's > Progress". Fits in with his being a Seeker, too...a term that could relate to a variety of religions, certainly including Christianity (with a very specific use for a group of English Dissenters, forerunners of the Quakers who saw corruption in all church organizations; many embraced the Quaker belief that all persons could know the spirit of Christ within...the Inner Light). Whether in general terms or in some more specific way, the designation of Harry as a Seeker is significant. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 10 21:14:41 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 21:14:41 -0000 Subject: The Map, the Twins, the Rat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Hunt" wrote: > Suzanne: > > I have long wondered how Fred and George learned how to manipulate > the map with 'I solemnly swear I am up to no good'. > > > > I recently had this thought: could it be possible that Scabbers > conspired to tell the twins how the map worked? > > > Tcy: > I've often wondered how the twins managed it, also...but I doubt > that it was from Scabbers or Peter. .... > > But wait, .... Peter is using the map for various deeds at school > during term and somehow the Twins stumble upon it. Peter would > immediately transform into a rat so as not to be discovered - but > not before 'managing his mischief'. The Twins find the active map > and the rest is history. > > Hmmmm....could be. > > Tcy bboy_mn: One small flaw, Fred and George didn't find the Map laying on the ground/floor. It was confiscated by Flich many years ago, and Fred and George swipped it from Flich's office. In addition, if the Map was already enabled, why would it even occur to them that it could possibly be disabled? It's not really common for maps in general to turn ON and OFF. However, if the Map was 'OFF' when they found it, they would logically assume that this 'highly dangerous' piece of paper did something, and would have searched for a way to activate it. I have no trouble at all hearing Fred, after pointing his wand at the Map, saying something like, 'I solumnly swear I am up to no good'. That seems a perfectly 'Fred' thing to say. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From BrwNeil at aol.com Mon May 10 22:48:09 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:48:09 EDT Subject: Over Kill with Dementors Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98014 I'm reading PoA once more before seeing the movie. Did JKR get a little carried away at the Quiddich game? We are told that Dumbledore did not want any dementors at Hogwarts, but was basically pushed into allowing them to guard the gates. How many gates does the school have that there were 100 dementors around and why when the stands are full of hundreds of students are they all standing around just looking up at Harry? Are even the dementors impressed with his flying skill or does this just not make sense to anyone else?. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hannah at readysolve.com Mon May 10 19:21:39 2004 From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 19:21:39 -0000 Subject: Use of Hagrid's name - More names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98015 > > Of topic thoughts on names - How many people call Sirius Black by > 'Sirius', and how many people call Remus Lupin by 'Lupin'. I think > quite a few; most probably, a majority. Any thoughts as to why we are > familiar and friendly enough with Sirius to call him by his first > name, yet, despite his warm friendly demeanor, we are more inclined to > refer to Lupin by his last name? > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn I think it's because we are introduced to Lupin as a teacher first, so Harry becomes used to using his surname. All the students refer to professors by surname and outside lessons they don't add professor. Also Lupin sounds like a name and Black doesn't. Khilari. From dawnbenns at hotmail.com Mon May 10 20:54:22 2004 From: dawnbenns at hotmail.com (deeby8658) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:54:22 -0000 Subject: Keeper of the Keys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98016 Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: As for Harry as a Christ figure, I'm with others who've speculated that Harry might more likely be seen as "the everyman" on a Christian journey, but not as the Christ figure himself. Those who've argued for DD or even Fawkes in that role make a lot of sense to me. deeby responds; Thanks for highlighting the idea of Harry as 'Everyman' - once I'd read that, I could see so many links with morality plays that I can't believe I'd never noticed them before - doh! With morality plays centring on the protagonist's choice between good and evil, this underlines so much that has been written recently on these boards about choice being ultimately at the centre of these books. Also I love the idea of the Vice Crew featuring in Harry Potter - Hmm, who would be the Vice figure/tempter of Harry/Everyman, I wonder?? Your mentioning DD, Fawkes and Harry together also set me off on pondering the role of the Trinity - but that's for another post when I've done a little more reading to see if there is any specific canon to support this highly appealing theory. deeby From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Mon May 10 21:02:53 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 21:02:53 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98017 Gregory wrote: >This whole discussion of Hagrid's name has been very interestig, and >I don't really have much to add except a question. >What views do you take when you combine the use of Hagrid's last name >with Dumbledore's incessant insertion of "professor" when Harry does >the same with Snape? Leah: Apart from the obvious need for school discipline, I see the insistence on 'Professor Snape' by Dumbledore as a reflection of his awareness of what Snape has done and continues to do for the Order. Sirius told us, in relation to his brother, what happens to those who want out of the Death Eaters- you don't hand in your resignation to Voldemort. Sirius has 'resigned' but is not lying low; he is risking discovery every time he undertakes a task for Dumbldore. Dumbledore feels Snape deserves respect, and without telling Harry exactly why, is trying to instil some of that respect in the boy. I do feel though that Dumbledore's respect for Snape as a member of the Order blinds him to the latter's very questionable teaching methods. Leah From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Mon May 10 21:59:25 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 14:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040510215925.7183.qmail@web13811.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98018 Mo: Possibilities?... Maybe Dumbledore. Wasn't HE the only wizard LV ever feared? animallover_11: I agree that DD would be a good guess for "the other". Harry has already vanquished LV when he was a baby. So it does not make sense that the prophecy comes down to these two "taking care" of each other. LV also does not seem to fear Harry or his powers but is always showing fear of DD. It OoP Bellatrix tells LV that "he is here" referring to DD (sorry that was paraphrased). I think it may come down to DD somehow taking LV powers. DD tells him "there are worse things than death" (paraphrased again sorry). What would LV hate worse than death? How about the loss of his powers. That is what he has been working for this entire time. He wants to be know as the "greatest wizard of all times". animallover_11 From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Mon May 10 22:07:54 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 15:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040510220754.37398.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98019 Del answers : But DD is still alive, and both Harry and LV can live while DD is alive. It doesn't seem to fit the Prophecy. animallover_11: But Harry is not really living while LV is living. He is too busy worry about LV coming after him. LV is also was not really "living". He (as of the end GoF) is now living. So there is two years before we see who really lives. animallover_11 From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com Tue May 11 00:16:43 2004 From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 00:16:43 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore Swiping Harry's Memories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98020 Entropy wrote: Is it possible that Dumbledore made a point > of placing Harry's memories of that night into his pensieve while > Harry was unconscious, taking a look, and then put the memory back > before Harry awoke? > > This leads to a similar point regarding what happened that night in > Godric's Hollow. It seems logical that, needing to fill in the > blanks, Dumbledore may have instructed Hagrid to "collect" Harry's > memories of that night when he went to get Harry on Sirius' bike. Heather says: That could certainly explain some of the missing hours between GH being 'blown up' and Hagrid's arrival at the Dursley's. I think this is a very good theory. Entropy again: In addition, keeping > Harry's memories in his pensieve would ensure that Harry wouldn't have > to relive the murder of his parents later on if some of these > memories ever did decide to "creep" back in to his consciousness. Heather Again: Except that Harry does have some of the memories as we saw in POA with the Dementors. What if the memories in the pensieve are "copies" of (files) rather than actually removed (from one drive to another). AFter all, DD does seem to have a very good recollection in his head of all those memories Harry saw in the pensieve. But then again... why would Snape use the pensieve to hide his memories from Harry in that case :( Oh well, just a theory. Heather From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com Tue May 11 00:29:28 2004 From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 00:29:28 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98021 Neil. wrote: > I'm reading PoA once more before seeing the movie. Did JKR get a little > carried away at the Quiddich game? We are told that Dumbledore did not want any > dementors at Hogwarts, but was basically pushed into allowing them to guard the > gates. > > How many gates does the school have that there were 100 dementors around and > why when the stands are full of hundreds of students are they all standing > around just looking up at Harry? Are even the dementors impressed with his > flying skill or does this just not make sense to anyone else?. > > Neil Heather says: One thing that I noticed is that Harry sees 'the Grim" (aka Sirius as the dog)in the stands just seconds before the Dementors on the pitch begin to affect him. I think most people read this as being a red herring explanation to Harry's nearly fatal fall from his broom. But later Sirius admits to Harry that he was indeed in the stands that day and watched Harry fly. I deduced that the Dementors actually came onto the pitch that afternoon because they had tracked Sirius there - it's just that no one other than Harry saw him; and Harry wasn't telling since he was feeling a little paranoid about 'the Grim' and the big to-do that everyone had placed on it. Heather From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue May 11 00:57:58 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 00:57:58 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98022 > > Bookworm: > > The thought of Harry being thrown back into the muggle world > after 7 years in the WW just doesn't work for me. He would be > woefully unprepared to function as an adult in that world.< > > > Pippin: > He'd be no worse off than many a young immigrant, and better > off than many. He knows the language and he's got a huge pile > of gold, which Gringotts is quite capable of changing into Muggle > money for him. > Bookworm: So he'd be a teenager with a large stack of money, no occupational training, and no supervision. Is that music I hear in the background?: Oh yes we got trouble, trouble, trouble! With a "T"! Gotta rhyme it with "P"! And that stands for -- Potter!!! Ravenclaw Bookworm From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 11 01:01:48 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 01:01:48 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98023 > Heather says: > One thing that I noticed is that Harry sees 'the Grim" (aka Sirius > as the dog)in the stands just seconds before the Dementors on the > pitch begin to affect him. I think most people read this as being > a red herring explanation to Harry's nearly fatal fall from his > broom. But later Sirius admits to Harry that he was indeed in the > stands that day and watched Harry fly. I deduced that the > Dementors actually came onto the pitch that afternoon because they > had tracked Sirius there.... Siriusly Snapey Susan: Except that I don't think the Dementors *could* track him there if he was in animagus form. That's the reason he was able to escape from Azkaban in the first place--he said the Dementors are much less sensitive to the emotions of animals, and so when he slipped by, they were just confused. I assume Sirius has been hanging around Hogwarts *only* in his animagus form, so I don't think the Dementors could have tracked him to the stadium any more than they tracked him into the Forbidden Forest, where he'd been hiding. The given explanation--that they were so "hungry" they couldn't resist the big crowd--makes sense to me. Siriusly Snapey Susan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 11 01:06:41 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 01:06:41 -0000 Subject: Will Harry lose his powers? (Was:Book 7 predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98024 Jim Ferer wrote: I think themes and events are building towards an ending where Harry makes the hardest decision of his life and gives himself up in some form to defeat Voldemort once and for all. The vision I get is Harry somehow giving up his magical ability in order to take away Voldemort's ability; the ultimate destiny of their magical and blood links. Pippin responded: Yeah, that's what I've been saying too. And I've thought of a way it could happen. We know that some of Harry's magical abilities came from Voldemort. Suppose they all did? Suppose it's Harry, not Neville, who was the natural-born squib. So when Voldemort finally dies, Harry's powers vanish forever. Carol adds: Except that his flying ability and its offshoot, his Quidditch skills, seems to be inherited directly from James. We've yet to see Voldemort on a broom, and there's no indication, IIRC, that Tom Riddle ever played Quidditch. So I don't think Harry would have been a Squib, though I agree that he would have been much less powerful--an ordinary wizard kid like Ron--if he hadn't acquired most of Voldemort's powers at Godric's Hollow. I think he'll lose those extra powers and be left with his own inborn talents and whatever skills a wizard can acquire through education and practice. (Who needs Parseltongue and Legilmency, anyway?) Carol, who's interested in seeing what other skills Harry acquired that aren't really his own From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue May 11 01:29:59 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 01:29:59 -0000 Subject: Will Harry lose his powers? (Was:Book 7 predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol adds: > Except that his flying ability and its offshoot, his Quidditch skills, > seems to be inherited directly from James. We've yet to see Voldemort > on a broom, and there's no indication, IIRC, that Tom Riddle ever > played Quidditch. So I don't think Harry would have been a Squib, > though I agree that he would have been much less powerful--an ordinary > wizard kid like Ron--if he hadn't acquired most of Voldemort's powers > at Godric's Hollow. I think he'll lose those extra powers and be left > with his own inborn talents and whatever skills a wizard can acquire > through education and practice. (Who needs Parseltongue and > Legilmency, anyway?) > > Carol, who's interested in seeing what other skills Harry acquired > that aren't really his own Oh, I like this. In fact I like this a lot. Sure, let Harry lose superpowers which he got from Voldie and just let him be the "normal wizard". That's what he seems to want more than anything in anyway - to have a normal life. But let him lead this normal life with the people who love him and whom he loves. He! I sure don't want to see Voldemort on the broom. Somehow I imagine a very unattractive picture. :o) Alla From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Tue May 11 02:04:43 2004 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 02:04:43 -0000 Subject: In essence divided. What was left of Voldy's humanity is trapped in H ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > Someone recently mentioned the "in essence divided" comment by DD. > Could a part of Voldemort, aside from certain talents, be inside > Harry? Is it possible that when Voldemort attacked baby Harry that > he lost whatever was left of his humanity? Could a part of Tom be > inside Harry? Didn't Harry once comment that the name Tom Riddle > seemed familiar, like an old friend he had as a child? Is it > possible that Lily's spell tore Voldemort's soul/essence literally > in half? Could Tom have been absorbed into Harry? > > vmonte See the KITTENS & RAINBOWS theory website: http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html Or alternatively see messages: #78982, #79691, #83445. -Maus From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 11 02:09:57 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 02:09:57 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98027 > Bookworm: > So he'd be a teenager with a large stack of money, no >occupational training, and no supervision. Pippin He knows he can teach, for one thing, and he's got enough money to pay for whatever credentials he requires. He'll be turning eighteen at the end of Book Seven. He'll have been legally an adult for a year already; he won't *need* supervision. As for navigating the complexities of the Muggle world without help, I don't think he'd have to. Mrs. Figg and the Weasley cousin who's an accountant are probably only two of many who've abandoned the wizarding world by choice or by force. Surely not every wizard/Muggle marriage has the happy couple choosing the wizarding world to live in. I'm sure Harry could get whatever help he needs. Money talks. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 11 02:22:34 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 02:22:34 -0000 Subject: Will Harry lose his powers? (Was:Book 7 predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98028 > Carol adds: > Except that his flying ability and its offshoot, his Quidditch skills, seems to be inherited directly from James. We've yet to see Voldemort on a broom, and there's no indication, IIRC, that Tom Riddle ever played Quidditch. So I don't think Harry would have been a Squib, though I agree that he would have been much less powerful--an ordinary wizard kid like Ron--if he hadn't acquired most of Voldemort's powers at Godric's Hollow.< I think that's too easy. This is supposed to be a sacrifice; Harry's got to give up something he really wants. Like Quidditch. We do have canon for Voldemort's flying abilities, I'm afraid -- Quirrellmort not only caught the flying key in Book One, he did it without extra help. Harry needed Ron and Hermione. Harry certainly has his father's athletic talent, but is that magic? >From what I've read of JKR's interviews, she doesn't like the sort of series where the hero is the ageless, changeless protagonist of endless sequels--I don't think she'd leave Harry to such a fate. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 11 02:33:46 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 02:33:46 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98029 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > Heather says: > > One thing that I noticed is that Harry sees 'the Grim" (aka Sirius as the dog)in the stands just seconds before the Dementors on the pitch begin to affect him. I think most people read this as being a red herring explanation to Harry's nearly fatal fall from his broom. But later Sirius admits to Harry that he was indeed in the stands that day and watched Harry fly. I deduced that the Dementors actually came onto the pitch that afternoon because they had tracked Sirius there....<< > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > Except that I don't think the Dementors *could* track him there if he was in animagus form. That's the reason he was able to escape from Azkaban in the first place--he said the Dementors are much less sensitive to the emotions of animals, and so when he slipped by, they were just confused. I assume Sirius has been hanging around Hogwarts *only* in his animagus form, so I don't think the Dementors could have tracked him to the stadium any more than they tracked him into the Forbidden Forest, where he'd been hiding. The given explanation--that they were so "hungry" they couldn't resist the big crowd--makes sense to me.< Pippin: But they track Sirius again at the end of PoA, when he's all by himself. I'm afraid this is all ESE!Lupin's work. I was thrilled to discover, in OOP, that one can see the Quidditch pitch from the DADA office. speculating: Transformed but with a human mind, ESE!Lupin spotted Sirius at the match and summoned the Dementors. Since they were concentrating their powers on Sirius, the other students weren't much affected, except for Harry who is more than usually sensitive. We have canon that Dementors can concentrate their powers more on one person than another: Fudge for example, can bring one into the castle to deal with Crouch without being overcome. Pippin From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Tue May 11 03:05:18 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: use of hagrid's name In-Reply-To: <1084106031.8467.21563.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040511030518.50461.qmail@web13524.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98030 Yes. >:) More alchemy. John Granger mentioned, in _The Hidden key to HP_, how the three stages of alchemy/Harry's soul purification etc. had characters corresponding accordingly: Black (sirius), White (albus), and .... Red (Rubeus), upcoming, to play an important part in a future book, theorizes Granger? Backup for this may be the fact that JKR told Robbie Coltrane secret background stuff on his character that we do not know yet. AJ Mo: I don't know about the theories, but usually White means Pure, Wise, Noble, etc. And Red is usually associated with martyrs. I could see Hagrid dying in the future to save someone. ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 11 03:07:36 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 03:07:36 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98031 Heather says: > > > One thing that I noticed is that Harry sees 'the Grim" (aka > Sirius as the dog)in the stands just seconds before the > Dementors on the pitch begin to affect him. I > deduced that the Dementors actually came onto the pitch that > afternoon because they had tracked Sirius there....<< Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > Except that I don't think the Dementors *could* track him there > if he was in animagus form. That's the reason he was able to > escape from Azkaban in the first place--he said the Dementors > are much less sensitive to the emotions of animals, and so > when he slipped by, they were just confused. I assume Sirius > has been hanging around Hogwarts *only* in his animagus > form, so I don't think the Dementors could have tracked him to > the stadium any more than they tracked him into the Forbidden > Forest, where he'd been hiding. The given explanation--that they > were so "hungry" they couldn't resist the big crowd--makes > sense to me.< Pippin: > But they track Sirius again at the end of PoA, when he's all by > himself. I'm afraid this is all ESE!Lupin's work. I was thrilled > to discover, in OOP, that one can see the Quidditch pitch from the > DADA office. > > speculating: > Transformed but with a human mind, ESE!Lupin spotted Sirius > at the match and summoned the Dementors. Since they were > concentrating their powers on Sirius, the other students weren't > much affected, except for Harry who is more than usually > sensitive. We have canon that Dementors can concentrate their > powers more on one person than another: Fudge for example, > can bring one into the castle to deal with Crouch without being > overcome. Siriusly Snapey Susan: :-) Pippin, you do have an incredible knack for finding canon support for your theories! I'd remembered that Harry could see the Quidditch pitch from the DADA office, but I'd certainly never considered its implications for ESE!Lupin. Not that I'm convinced, mind you, but you are one relentless evidence-gatherer! Anyway, when you say the Dementors are tracking Sirius at the end of PoA, are you talking about the night all h*@# broke loose in the Shrieking Shack, when they would've kissed him if not for Harry's patronous? Or do you mean after Sirius' escape on Buckbeak? If the former, I wonder if the Dementors weren't tracking the ACTION in general...the presence of humans...and Sirius had been in human form at first when they came out from the Whomping Willow. If you mean after his escape, do we know that the Dementors were having any success in tracking him? Siriusly Snapey Susan...who just finished listening to PoA and who just still won't buy into ESE!Lupin but who appreciates Pippin's tenacity. From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Tue May 11 02:45:48 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 19:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry- heir of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: <1084106031.8467.21563.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040511024548.33957.qmail@web13521.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98032 Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 02:31:10 -0000 From: "stacya14" Subject: Harry- heir of Slytherin? "The heir alone would be able to unseal the chamber of secrets,..." COS chapter nine pg 151 amer. ed. (Professor Binns telling the class about the legend of the Chamber of Secrets.) I know it is also possible that this just means that only the heir can open it the first time, but others could do it later. Thus V opened at school, so now Harry can. But so many other things about Harry seem to point to this: his green eyes (which are mentioned more times than I can count), his likeness to Tom Riddle (pg317 CoS), the sorting hat wanting to put him in Slytherin, even Dumbledore admitted that Harry has many qualities that Salazar Slytherin looked for (CoS pg 333). Now I know that many people (me included) think that Harry is a distant relative of Godric Gryffindor. And I don't think that Harry being an heir of Slytherin means that he can't be an heir of Gryffindor. On the contrary, I believes it's possible that he's an heir of both of them (of course there's loads in the books that point to him being an heir of Gryffindor). But enough about what I think. What do you think? I'm interested to hear arguments for or against what I've said! Stacy Mo: I think it might stem from the prophecy "He will mark him as his equal." Harry is LV's equal, but opposite. He has a lot of the powers that LV has. There is a definite connection between them. Whether or not he is the Heir, I don't know. Being an "heir" does not make you a direct decendent of someone. It just means that you have inherited the line. (I.E., if I adopt a child and leave all my possesions to that child and teach that child everything I know, that child will be my heir.) I think Harry could have opened the chamber because of the likeliness forged between them Now, on another note, LV did NOT open the Chamber this time. Ginny Weasly was actually the one to go and do it. We could also speculate that the chamber was opened by Book!T.R. by way of Ginny, making it possible for others to open the chamber, as long as they know how through instruction. Harry knew because he spoke Parseltounge because of the ties he has with LV. ~Mo, who doesn't know where she was going with this post... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue May 11 06:19:43 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 06:19:43 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Name and Respect for Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98033 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "littleleahstill" wrote: > Gregory wrote: > > >This whole discussion of Hagrid's name has been very interesting, > >and I don't really have much to add except a question. > > >What views do you take when you combine the use of Hagrid's last > >name with Dumbledore's incessant insertion of "professor" when > >Harry does the same with Snape? > > Leah: > > Apart from the obvious need for school discipline, I see the > insistence on 'Professor Snape' by Dumbledore as a reflection of his > awareness of what Snape has done and continues to do for the Order. > ...edited... Dumbledore feels Snape deserves respect, and without > telling Harry exactly why, is trying to instil some of that respect > in the boy. I do feel though that Dumbledore's respect for Snape as > a member of the Order blinds him to the latter's very questionable > teaching methods. > > Leah bboy_mn: Regarding Dumbledore insistance that Harry call Snape by the title 'Professor', Dumbledore must be aware that there is animosity between Snape and Harry, and I think He doesn't want that animosity to prevent Harry from showing Snape the respect he deserves. While Harry may not think Snape deserves that respect as a person, Snape is unquestionably a powerful wizard, an extremely knowledgable Portions Master, has taken great risks to aid the side of good, has tried to save Harry, and has done things of great importance to the wizard world and to Harry that haven't been fully revealed yet. Consequently, Dumbledore wants to foster a sense of respect in Harry; a respect that Snape deserves even if Harry doesn't know why. As far as Snape's teaching method, I think he teaches a very advanced class, and as miserable as the students are, they are far ahead of where they need to be to pass either OWLs or NEWTs. Measured by the results he produces, by the students test scores, Snape is a good teacher, although, without question he is not a very nice person. I think, to some extent, Dumbledore believes that Snape also, although unintentionally, teaches the student a valuable life lesson. That lesson is that in the very long life of a wizard, you will meet and be forced to work with people who are capable but not very pleasant. In real life, as we all know from experience, you have to learn to deal with these people. Slight Rant: this is a lesson that kids today are not learning, that why you find so many self-centered impolite 'Snape'-like kids in the world. Kids who all have a very Draconian (Draco-like) sense of priviledge, and can't believe that the entire world doesn't exits for the sole purpose of making them happy. A misconception that many never get over in a lifetime. Consequently, once they are out of college and in the real world, they do not function very well. So, thank you very much Professor Dumbledore, that is indeed a valuable, though very unpleasant, lesson for the kids to learn. I also think that is why Peeves-the Poltergeist and Filch remain at the castle. They both provide valuable life lesson, as well as great adventure stories to tell your friend over drinks when you are older. I do agree to a limited extent, that Dumbledore is slightly blinded by the good Snape does. I think if he really knew how horribly miserable some kids like Neville were, he would tell Snape to ease up a bit. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue May 11 06:39:12 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 06:39:12 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: <20040510220754.37398.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98034 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, animal lover wrote: > Del answers : > But DD is still alive, and both Harry and LV can live while DD is > alive. It doesn't seem to fit the Prophecy. > > > animallover_11: > > But Harry is not really living while LV is living. He is too busy worry about LV coming after him. LV is also was not really "living". He (as of the end GoF) is now living. So there is two years before we see who really lives. > > animallover_11 bboy_mn: I would never go so far as to say I am right, but here is a potential interpretation. "...And Either must die at the hand of the Other for Neither can live while the Other survives...." So, 'Either' represents Harry and Neville. 'Other' represents Voldemort. The interpretation is that Harry and Neville are marked for death by Voldemort, and they will have this cloud of death hanging over them for as long as Voldemort is alive. In this interpretation, the implication is that Voldemort will kill either Harry or Neville, and that will open the door for the remaining person, Harry or Neville, to destroy Volemort in some way (possibly death, possibly not). Restated: '...either Harry or Neville must die at the hand of Voldemort for neither Harry nor Neville can live without the specter of death hanging over them while Voldemort survives...' Not saying it is possible or even probably, just that it is as fair an interpretation as any. I strongly feel that some how, some way, Neville has to be factored into this, but I'm just not sure yet where he fits. bboy_mn From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Tue May 11 01:01:43 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040511010143.32197.qmail@web13811.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98035 Heather says: I deduced that the Dementors actually came onto the pitch that afternoon because they had tracked Sirius there animallover_11: I thought the only way that Sirius was able to survive in Azkaban was in dog form. The Dementors could not sense him and he was "protected" from them. That was also how he was able to escape. If this is the case then the Dementors were not there because of him. I thought it was explained in PoA that they were drawn by the stands full of people cheering. It would be like am all-you-can-eat buffet of sorts. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Tue May 11 01:30:01 2004 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 01:30:01 -0000 Subject: This may be an old subject but, Who owns the Riddle House? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98036 I am re-reading for the nth time GOF, and I thought that Malfoy could be the mysterious owner of the house. Any theories? I apologize if this came up before, I did not find anything in the archives. Thanks Mario From Hawkfalco at comcast.net Tue May 11 02:18:10 2004 From: Hawkfalco at comcast.net (hawkfalco) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 02:18:10 -0000 Subject: Harry stepping up to the plate. Was Harry heir of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > Mandy here: > I admire your faith in DD being not only right, but honest. I don't > think he is either when it suites him. > > DD will tell Harry whatever DD thinks Harry wants, and needs to hear > to keep Harry in the 'dark' about his destiny for as long a possible. Hawk here: I completely agree that DD is censoring what he is saying to Harry. DD explained well why he had with held the information from: to spare him pain not to keep him from the Dark Side. I do not believe DD is out and out lying to him. To tell Harry that Riddle is the "last remaining ancestor of Slytherin" and have it not be so would be just such a lie. So, yes, I trust that statement as truth. > This is dangerous thinking in DD opinion, as he has to keep > Harry on the side of right, justice and good, away from 'bad' > influences. The last thing DD needs if for a young Harry (and Harry > was only 14) to begin to entertain thoughts of belonging in Slytherin. My personal take on that scene in DD's office at the end of 'Chamber of Secrets' is a bit different than yours. I do not believe that DD is trying to "control" Harry or keep him from "dangerous thinking". What DD is doing is offering a bit of wisdom and perspective to a troubled and seeking 12 year old boy who has just been through one hell of a tramactic experience. The lesson taught is about how choice and action make the man, not the scar on your head or the House you school in. > Especially as it is the House he really belongs in imo. (The Sorting > Hat was going to put Harry in Slytherin before he asked not to be.) > If Harry was in Slytherin House he would be far more difficult to > control and more likely to be seduced by the Dark side. Yes, DD is watching and influencing but I think you suspiciously paint him with too much meddling deceit. I find that DD consistently offers up teachings and then leaves Harry to think his own thoughts, make his own choices, choose his own friends, etc. As far back as the first few chapters of the first book he has had opportunities to lean toward the Dark. He has been given free will throughout the books and, so far, he has chosen the Light. A Dark Temptation would be an interesting thing to watch but I do not ultimately fear for Harry's soul. > Whether Harry likes it or > not, he has Dark as well as Good Magic in him, in large amounts, and > if he doesn't learn to embrace the Dark (as well as the Good) and > learn to control it, it will begin to control him. Does Harry have Dark Magic in him as you propose? Please help me out with an example. He has a temper. But that's not Dark Magic. He has dream visions. That's not Dark Magic. He was once possessed by Voldermort but that does not make Harry a Dark Wizard anymore than it makes Ginny a Dark Witch for have being possessed by Tom Riddle. The Curse Scar connection ties him intimately with Voldemort but we have yet to see Harry as Dark all on his own when Voldy's not messing about with his head. He can speak Parseltongue. That's a skill Dark Wizards have had in the past but is it in itself Dark Magic? Does it make Harry a Dark Wizard? I don't think so. And I think it will come in handy in a future book. It may be logical to assume that the curse transferred Dark Magic but what if it just transferred certain powers and skills? Can magic be Light or Dark depending on intent and result. Magic is as Magic does? (sorry Forest Gump) > So DD is telling Harry what her needs to hear, and I wouldn't, if I > were you, discount your theory just yet. I for one think Harry is the > heir of both Slytherin and Gryiffindor. He was able to open the > Chamber of Secrets and pull the Gryffindor Sword from the > Stone...er..sorry, hat. Yes, he could open the Chamber because of a skill transferred from Voldemort not bloodline...well, all that has already been explained. Sometimes things just are what they appear. I know you view DD in a different light than I. By the 7th Book we shall know them. Hawk From jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com Tue May 11 06:04:19 2004 From: jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com (jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:04:19 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 7 predictions Message-ID: <149e91149763.149763149e91@tampabay.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98038 > > Bookworm: > > So he'd be a teenager with a large stack of money, no > >occupational training, and no supervision. > > > Pippin > He knows he can teach, for one thing, and he's got enough > money to pay for whatever credentials he requires. He'll be > turning eighteen at the end of Book Seven. He'll have been > legally an adult for a year already; he won't *need* > supervision. > > As for navigating the complexities of the Muggle world without > help, I don't think he'd have to. Mrs. Figg and the Weasley cousin > who's an accountant are probably only two of many who've > abandoned the wizarding world by choice or by force. Surely not > every wizard/Muggle marriage has the happy couple choosing > the wizarding world to live in. I'm sure Harry could get whatever > help he needs. Money talks. I think everyone is going the wrong way with this. Why can't Harry get all of LV powers? Why can't he be the next DD who defeted another Dark wizard early in his life? Sorry I'm on the road and don't have my books in front of me. Why can't Harry come out of this more powerful than when he went into this? This would set him up to become a great teacher and the next Head Master. Instead of going way to the left why don't we think the best for Harry? I think he will come out of this better off than when he started. Jim from Qatar From amlesis at yahoo.com Tue May 11 06:25:09 2004 From: amlesis at yahoo.com (Franzi schuerch) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 23:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Q's about house-elves Message-ID: <20040511062509.50538.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98039 This may have been covered before but I have some questions about house-elves. 1. In OoP after Dobby warned the DA members that Umbridge is on her way he starts to punish himself. But since he is a freed house-elf there should be no need to do so. Is it just the old habit? (Sounds more like Winky to me.) 2. Who is the master of Hogwarts's house-elves? I always assumed it to be Dumbledore because Dobby and Winky came to work for DD in GoF. In OoP however, is seems Umbridge is giving orders to the elves too. So maybe all theachers are regarded as masters over the elves? But what about students? According to Dobby in CoS only an elf's master can set it free. Well, in OoP Hermione obviously believes or knows (something mentioned in "Hogwarts: a History" perhaps?) to have the authority to set elves free when she knits all the elf closes. However, I found it hard to believe that students would be given that kind of power. I'm just picturing a scene where a house-elf is bond to answer to the trio's questions about Snape's dirty laundry (or his twins) ;-) 3. Something that mad me feel uneasy since I finished OoP is what's going to happen to Kreacher now that Sirius is dead? I could think of three scenarios: a) Who ever inherit Grimmauld Place gets Kreacher as part of the property. b) Being Sirius's next relatives Narcissa or Bellatrix are going to inherit him. I' m wondering if a house-elf can reveal its former master's secretes to a new master or not. c) Since Sirius was the last Black Kreacher is set free. Would that mean he could reveal all he knows about the order to everyone? (In OoP Sirius sais to Hermione "We can't set him (Kreacher) free he knows to much about the order".) Franzi, who would love to know what others think about it. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue May 11 09:11:30 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:11:30 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: <20040511010143.32197.qmail@web13811.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98040 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, animal lover wrote: > Heather says: > I deduced that the Dementors actually came onto the pitch > that afternoon because they had tracked Sirius there > > I thought the only way that Sirius was able to survive in >Azkaban was in dog form. The Dementors could not sense > him and he was "protected" from them. That was also how > he was able to escape. If this is the case then the Dementors > were not there because of him. I thought it was explained > in PoA that they were drawn by the stands full of people >cheering. It would be like am all-you-can-eat buffet of sorts. > > animallover_11 Explained? Not quite - more like suggested, as in oh, that must be the reason. But to those who are fully paid up members of the League of Conspiracy Theorists (Paranoia Chapter) a more entertaining explanation springs to mind. If the Dementors were attracked by the large crowd, why did they concentrate solely on Harry? "At least a hundred Dementors, their hidden faces pointing up at him, were standing below." Again, after they all leave the Shrieking Shack the Dementors turn up again. It's worth noting that although Sirius leaves the Shack in dog form, as the Dementors get closer Sirius is so affected that he transforms back to human - and the Dementors are still some way off. Even so it is Harry that the Dementors concentrate on, ignoring Sirius: "The Dementors were closing in, barely ten feet from them. They formed a solid wall around Harry and Hermione, and were getting closer...." Yes, Sirius did pass out but I doubt that it was the first time one of their targets had done that as they approached. It would make little difference to them IMO. It also begs the question - how was it that they didn't have the same effect on Sirius while he was supposedly escaping from Azkaban? I use the word "supposedly" deliberately. Consider the sequence of events: Fudge visits Azkaban the *night before* Sirius' escape. He has with him a newspaper with a photograph of Peter in animagus form which somehow ends up in Sirius's hands. Sirius escapes. Fudge lets the Dementors loose. Who seem a hell of a lot more interested in Harry than in Sirius. To those of a suspicious nature it all seems a bit too convenient. Suppose Sirius didn't fool his captors but was allowed to escape, thus giving Fudge an excuse to send the Dementors to Hogwarts. Where - surprise, surprise, they ignore Sirius and concentrate on Harry. But not by accident. Harry is the priority target. Dear Dolly tries it again in OoP - Dementors go after who they are *ordered* to go after. They have no reason to single out Harry unless instructed to do so. On the surface PoA is an atypical book. It's the only one in the series where Harry is not threatened by Voldy or one of his minions. Or is it? The only difficulty is in deciding who is the baddy - Sirius or Fudge? Or both? Was Fudge acting on his own initiative or was he 'persuaded'? Did Fudge use Sirius as a cat's-paw or was Sirius in on the plot? (For those interested in an analysis of some of the oddities in Sirius' story, try my post 79808 - Sirius Reservations and the resulting thread.) Kneasy From BrwNeil at aol.com Tue May 11 10:41:13 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 06:41:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Over Kill with Dementors Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98041 In a message dated 5/11/2004 3:06:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com writes: I thought the only way that Sirius was able to survive in Azkaban was in dog form. The Dementors could not sense him and he was "protected" from them. That was also how he was able to escape. If this is the case then the Dementors were not there because of him. I thought it was explained in PoA that they were drawn by the stands full of people cheering. It would be like am all-you-can-eat buffet of sorts. It seems everyone has missed the point of my original post. My question was why over 100 dementors were at Hogwarts to begin with if their only job was to guard the gate. Also if drawn to the Quidditch field because of the large crowd, why do they seem to be paying attention only to Harry. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Tue May 11 11:00:57 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:00:57 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98042 Kneasy Wrote: >>If the Dementors were attracked by the large crowd, why did they concentrate solely on Harry? "At least a hundred Dementors, their hidden faces pointing up at him, were standing below." [snip 2nd example of this after they leave the shrieking shack] It also begs the question - how was it that they didn't have the same effect on Sirius while he was supposedly escaping from Azkaban? I use the word "supposedly" deliberately. Consider the sequence of events: Fudge visits Azkaban the *night before* Sirius' escape. He has with him a newspaper with a photograph of Peter in animagus form which somehow ends up in Sirius's hands. Sirius escapes. Fudge lets the Dementors loose. Who seem a hell of a lot more interested in Harry than in Sirius. [snip] On the surface PoA is an atypical book. It's the only one in the series where Harry is not threatened by Voldy or one of his minions. Or is it? The only difficulty is in deciding who is the baddy - Sirius or Fudge? Or both?<< HunterGreen: Interesting theory, Kneasy. I recently re-read PoA as well, and this would answer one of my questions. It struck me as odd that they would stop the train HALFWAY through to search it, rather than doing it at the beginning of the trip. Obviously, if Sirius was on the train, he would have got to Harry long before the Dementers came to look for him. Of course, they could have searched it BEFORE it loaded with students, but that makes searching it several hours later sort of useless, doesn't it? And their search is a little odd too. Its a fair estimate that the Dementer searched each compartment of the train, ending with the last one, where Harry was. The door opens, Harry passes out, then the Dementer just stands there for a moment. Lupin asks it to leave, but it doesn't move until he uses (I'm guessing) expecto patronum on it. Now why is that? Its clear just opening the door who's in there and who's not (especially since the dementer 'senses' rather than 'looks'), and certainly no one else on the train had to use a charm to get the dementer to leave (since none of them know it), so why does it just stand there? Perhaps they were dispatched on the train as soon as Fudge could get them there (which was halfway through), with orders to find Harry, and that's why it didn't leave until Lupin *forced* it to (this is all just guessing, of course). Well, Kneasy, as for *who* would be using the dementers to kill Harry, I really can't believe Sirius had anything to do with it, if only because there's hardly any place in the plot for it. At this point Sirius has been shut off from the world for 12 years, and he's a little off (of course the book asserts that he's sane, but any rational person looking at his actions in PoA can see that he's acting strange). Not only that, but none of his actions after escaping support anything but his wanting to kill Peter explanation. I do agree, however, that there may be something up with Fudge. We could work on the theory that he thinks that Sirius really is out to kill Harry, which would mean that he may be going at killing Harry from both ends, without getting his hands dirty on either side. His actions are a little odd, having a conversation with Sirius and giving him a newspaper, then not telling Harry the truth (and he had two chances, the first being when Sirius escaped, then the more obvious one when they met in the Leaky Cauldron), not only does he himself not tell Harry, but he orders others to do so as well (and he's rather evasive when Madam Rosemerta asks what they think Sirius is going after, even though NO ONE was being evasive at all during that whole conversation). If Sirius really had been out to kill Harry, he probably would have suceeded. On the night when he runs away from the Dursley's, it would have been *easy* for Padfoot to grab Harry and maul him to death. So he helps Sirius escape, which accomplishes two things: 1-Sirius might kill Harry, and 2-He has an excuse to dispatch the dementers to Hogwarts and have *them* kill Harry. We don't know what is motivating Fudge though, it could be a ESE!Fudge or just him being influence/threatened by anyone. The case for an ESE!Fudge is right there, its like its *too* obvious. (now I keep thinking about how odd it is that the dementers not only attacked Harry at the end of PoA but tried to perform the "kiss" on him, even though Sirius was lying feet away). From rtb333 at yahoo.com Tue May 11 11:41:56 2004 From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:41:56 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > Kneasy Wrote: The case for an ESE!Fudge is right > there, its like its *too* obvious. (now I keep thinking about how odd > it is that the dementers not only attacked Harry at the end of PoA > but tried to perform the "kiss" on him, even though Sirius was lying > feet away). Rob Now: I have been preching this from the begining. The Dementors are still loyal to Voldemort and are working in his interest and I deduced that since this is the case, the person in control of them is also a follower of Voldemort. There is no evidence that he Fudge was not one of the original DE. Actually there is good evidence that he is a DE. Him and his buddy Umbridge do everything in their power to try and ruin Harry, even making attempts on his life. The evidence is out there and all you have to do is look through Fudges actions. (Actions will show the true motives of a character). If you think that I may be off the wall, just think about the Dementors giving a kiss to Crouch Jr. shortly after he was discovered. Before DD got to ask him any questions, the Dementors swooped in and Killed/ Kissed him. Why, because they are working for Voldemort and they needed to silence a witness. If this is not enough for you also think about how it is possible that the only other three that escaped Azcaban where notorious DE. Interesting. The only other to escape was Serius, because everyone thought he was behind the deaths of the Potters and that he would want to kill Harry. Rob From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue May 11 11:53:31 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:53:31 -0000 Subject: LV last descendant of Slytherin ? (was : Re: Harry stepping up to the plate.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98044 Hawk said : > I do not believe DD is out and out lying to him. To tell Harry > that Riddle is the "last remaining ancestor of Slytherin" and have > it not be so would be just such a lie. So, yes, I trust that > statement as truth. Del replies : Apart from the fact that the right word should have been "descendant" and not "ancestor", I still don't trust that statement too much. My main concern is : how does DD know that ? * Slytherin lived several centuries ago, I doubt there are genealogy books going back all that time. * Salazar Slytherin was a famous wizard, so maybe there are indeed records of his descendants. But in that case, why wasn't Tom Marvolo Riddle identified as SS's last remaining descendant right from the beginning, and treated as such ? He was left in a Muggle orphanage for 11 years, without nobody in the WW caring about him. * Even worse : when the Monster of Slytherin started roaming the corridors of Hogwarts, how come nobody was able to identify Tom Riddle as the most obvious possibility for the Heir of Slytherin ? Unless of course, nobody knew that the monster was SS's Basilisk. But somehow I doubt that Tom would have freed it and sent it to kill Muggle-borns without making publicity about it. That's what he did in CoS, and I believe he did it the first time too. So it seems to me that there's no way to prove that LV is indeed the last descendant of SS. In fact, I would be very surprised if that were true : it would mean that SS's family always had a restricted number of kids, who always married within the same circle. Possible, but very improbable, no matter how noble they thought themselves to be. Even the Blacks, who obviously thought a lot of themselves, had many white sheep. And after all, Tom's mother married a *Muggle* : if Tom had been non-magical, he would have disappeared from the WW's radar. And then if later on one of his kids or grand-kids had turned out to be magical, that kid would have been a non-identified descendant of Slytherin... Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue May 11 12:17:29 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:17:29 -0000 Subject: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet In-Reply-To: <20040510220754.37398.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98045 animallover_11 wrote : > But Harry is not really living while LV is living. He is too busy > worry about LV coming after him. Del replies : I'm afraid I don't share that vision of things. Harry laughs, loves, studies, cries, hates, etc... In my dictionary, he's living all right. Morevoer, he's not that worried about LV. No matter what he says and thinks, the truth is that he spends much more time *not* thinking about LV than worrying about him. If anyone is preventing Harry from living in OoP, it's Umbridge, not LV. animallover_11 wrote : > LV is also was not really "living". He (as of the end GoF) is now > living. So there is two years before we see who really lives. Del replies : This is more like it IMO. LV indeed was barely alive for 13 years because of Harry. And he's been obsessed about Harry ever since he heard about the Prophecy, which was before Harry was born. So yes it could be said that LV cannot live while Harry survives. But the opposite (Harry can't live while LV survives) still remains untrue IMO. And bringing anyone who's currently alive in the equation doesn't simplify things in my idea :-) Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue May 11 13:16:12 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 13:16:12 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98046 Steve (bboy_mn) asked : > > Of topic thoughts on names - How many people call Sirius Black by > > 'Sirius', and how many people call Remus Lupin by 'Lupin'. I > > think quite a few; most probably, a majority. Any thoughts as to > > why we are familiar and friendly enough with Sirius to call him > > by his first name, yet, despite his warm friendly demeanor, we > > are more inclined to refer to Lupin by his last name? And Khilari answered : > I think it's because we are introduced to Lupin as a teacher > first, so Harry becomes used to using his surname. All the > students refer to professors by surname and outside lessons they > don't add professor. Del replies : But Sirius Black is first introduced to us as a mad mass murderer, and for a whole year,he is referred to as either "Sirius Black" or just "Black", and pretty much never as "Sirius". It's only when Harry becomes friendly with Sirius that he starts calling him by his first name only. On the other hand, no matter how friendly Remus Lupin is toward Harry, Harry never sees much more than a teacher in him, and thus continues calling him by his last name. I think it's just a matter of Harry's personal preferences being reflected in the way he calls people. By the way, I've always found it weird and disturbing, the way Harry focused all his attention on Sirius, and completely dismissed Remus. In Harry's eyes, Sirius was his father's only friend and Remus pretty much wasn't anything, even though he was most probably his father's second-best friend ! It's a bit like saying that Harry has ever only had one friend, Ron, and dismissing completely Hermione. khilari also wrote : > Also Lupin sounds like a name and Black doesn't. Del is puzzled : How so ? Del From squeakinby at tds.net Tue May 11 14:42:29 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:42:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A0E655.3050306@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98047 delwynmarch wrote: > khilari also wrote : > >>Also Lupin sounds like a name and Black doesn't. > > Del is puzzled : > How so ? I'm puzzled. Why Snuffles?? Jem From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 11 14:02:08 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:02:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's n ame - More names) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98048 Del replies : But Sirius Black is first introduced to us as a mad mass murderer, and for a whole year,he is referred to as either "Sirius Black" or just "Black", and pretty much never as "Sirius". It's only when Harry becomes friendly with Sirius that he starts calling him by his first name only. On the other hand, no matter how friendly Remus Lupin is toward Harry, Harry never sees much more than a teacher in him, and thus continues calling him by his last name. I think it's just a matter of Harry's personal preferences being reflected in the way he calls people. (snip) Gina replies: I think it is obvious. Sirius is family to Harry and you call family more familiar names. You do not always use the formal more respectful approach as you do with teachers or even older friends. Lupin is an adult and a teacher to Harry so naturally he is going to use a more formal tone. Sirius is family and he and Harry write all the time. Harry calls Hagrid - Hagrid so I think Lupin is friendly enough especially considering he loves MM but they always call her professor -it is just more respectful. It also bothers me that several people have said Harry is not close to Lupin - that is not true! I do not have my book but go to GoF where they come to get Harry from the Dursleys and it says something to the effect of: "Harry's heart leapt when he heard a familiar voice that he had not heard for over a year - Professor Lupin!" He was so happy to see Lupin and he did not start asking about Sirius at that point only happy to see and talk to Lupin. Gina - who thinks Lupin is a great guy! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 11 14:03:39 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:03:39 -0500 Subject: traitor in the midst Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98049 If there is going to be a Judas I am placing my money on Fletcher! Gina A. Miller [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue May 11 07:46:34 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 07:46:34 -0000 Subject: Q's about house-elves In-Reply-To: <20040511062509.50538.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98050 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Franzi schuerch wrote: > > This may have been covered before but I have some questions about house-elves. > > 1. In OoP after Dobby warned the DA members that Umbridge is on her way he starts to punish himself. But since he is a freed house-elf there should be no need to do so. Is it just the old habit? (Sounds more like Winky to me.) > > 2. Who is the master of Hogwarts's house-elves? I always assumed it to be Dumbledore because Dobby and Winky came to work for DD in GoF. In OoP however, is seems Umbridge is giving orders to the elves too. So maybe all theachers are regarded as masters over the elves? But what about students? According to Dobby in CoS only an elf's master can set it free. Well, in OoP Hermione obviously believes or knows (something mentioned in "Hogwarts: a History" perhaps?) to have the authority to set elves free when she knits all the elf closes. However, I found it hard to believe that students would be given that kind of power. I'm just picturing a scene where a house-elf is bond to answer to the trio's questions about Snape's dirty laundry (or his twins) ;-) > > 3. Something that mad me feel uneasy since I finished OoP is what's going to happen to Kreacher now that Sirius is dead? I could think of three scenarios: > a) Who ever inherit Grimmauld Place gets Kreacher as part of the property. > b) Being Sirius's next relatives Narcissa or Bellatrix are going to inherit him. I' m wondering if a house-elf can reveal its former master's secretes to a new master or not. > c) Since Sirius was the last Black Kreacher is set free. Would that mean he could reveal all he knows about the order to everyone? (In OoP Sirius sais to Hermione "We can't set him (Kreacher) free he knows to much about the order".) > ------- Finwitch: about 1&2 - now, first off, Dobby is a free elf who WANTS to be free. Others don't want freedom. What comes to their masters... As Sirius told Harry - the elf is bound to do the bidding of EVERY member of the family he/she serves. I'd say that all Hogwarts staff & students are members of this family. (and maybe even the paintings!) However, considering Kreacher (whose true loyalty was to Sirius' mother and Narcissa more than it ever was to Sirius); Dobby's true loyalty is more to Harry than any other. Anyway, I think the elves prioritise their orders. Other school- elves, I believe, (not Winky and Dobby) set Dumbledore first, then the Heads of houses, then other Professors, then either students or Filch. For *Dobby*, however, Harry's orders go beyond ALL others, though Dumbledore is close second (Dobby likes Dumbledore). I'd say that Umbridge, while able to order house-elves around, is the LAST in Dobby's priority list (because of what she did to Harry, no less, and for her TRYING to gain authority over Dumbledore). Me, I think that after Kreacher finds out that Sirius, his master, died because of his lie to Sirius' godson - he'll obey the Black family house-elf protocol and behead himself (Phineas tells him to, in order to gain some sort of revenge over Sirius?) Finwitch From angellima at xtra.co.nz Tue May 11 09:49:33 2004 From: angellima at xtra.co.nz (Angel Lima) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:49:33 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet References: Message-ID: <007101c4373d$4612b3a0$552d56d2@Angel> No: HPFGUIDX 98051 ----- Original Message ----- From: delwynmarch To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:41 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A thought about the prophecy - the Other's not alive yet "...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...". vmonte wrote : > The neither can live part may mean: neither will have peace until > Voldemort dies. Del replies : That can be said about MANY people. Pretty much everyone in fact. vmonte wrote : > Harry or Dumbledore must die at the hand of Voldemort for neither > can live while Voldemort survives... > > Dumbledore will sacrifice himself for the cause. Del replies : Or Lupin. Or Snape. Or any of the Weasleys. Or Neville. Or... Del Aarrgghh have written many replies to the various posts of the past weekend without any success! Hope this gets through. It's interesting the more I come across the prophecy the more poignant some points become. If I'm way off base - sowee, have only read the books once, with not much interest to aggravate the injury of Sirius' death, sniff! I think it would be detracting from the story line to refer to the "other" as any one person apart from Harry and/or Voldemort. Unless the other is the magical world, evil, etc. - I've rephrased the last part to throw more light on what it could mean 'for not one of them can live while one of them survives' it could simply mean they can both live and both survive. Voldemort before GoF can hardly be called alive - without body only in essence defying death by the dark magic he'd used on himself beforehand. Harry on the other hand oppressed by the Dursleys could hardly be called living the high life also. He got by with magic, and lived for the thrill of Hogwarts away from Privet Drive. As Voldemort was gaining strength Harry too was gaining more and more freedom from the Dursleys ignorance. He has use of his trunk and its occupants in his room and with the threat from the Order the Dursleys in book 6 surely would be more lenient with him. "either must die at the hand of the other" The prophecy is very specific in mentioning "hand" it didn't simply say - either must die by the other or so. We know Harry thwarted Voldemort in Philospher's Stone because of touch, a lingering protection left by Lily that is quite tangible in the form of touch, via hands. Harry's right hand is constantly getting twitchy though. His wand hand, the hands he touched Quirrell with, the one which the Basilisk sunk his fangs into, the hand Dobby's Bludger busted and Lockart emptied of bones and was thus regrown - the same hand from which his blood was drawn to return Voldy to his body. When Harry recounted the occurrences at the graveyard in Dumbledore's office, DD rushed to see where Pettigrew had pierced and had a mingled look of triumph on his face when he'd seen. Voldemort can now touch Harry but he's only done so once. Oh well just my thoughts and all ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue May 11 14:15:03 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:15:03 -0000 Subject: In essence divided. What was left of Voldy's humanity is trapped in H ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98052 I "vmonte" wrote: Someone recently mentioned the "in essence divided" comment by DD. Could a part of Voldemort, aside from certain talents, be inside Harry? Is it possible that when Voldemort attacked baby Harry that he lost whatever was left of his humanity? Could a part of Tom be inside Harry? Didn't Harry once comment that the name Tom Riddle seemed familiar, like an old friend he had as a child? Is it possible that Lily's spell tore Voldemort's soul/essence literally in half? Could Tom have been absorbed into Harry? Mause wrote: See the KITTENS & RAINBOWS theory website: http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html vmonte again: What an excellent post, Maus. My feeling is that Harry survived his childhood because of Tom Riddle. It must have been incredibly lonely for Harry as a baby in the Dursley house. What if Tom was his friend? I agree with you that Tom was probably more dominant when Harry was a child, but as Harry grew, Tom became less assertive. A baby is easily manipulated; and Tom may have needed to be more aggressive to ensure the child's survival. It's possible that Tom's original intentions for baby Harry were purely selfish. He needed to keep Harry alive long enough till he could find a way to remove himself. In a way, DD probably saved Harry's life by keeping him away from the WW world until he was 11. Tom had no access to DEs, potions, etc. Tom was forced to live his life through Harry for 11 years. Did Tom learned to love because of Harry? And has Tom been helping Harry beat Voldemort, again and again? Is it possible that Tom will save Harry in the end? What if the surge of power Mr. Dursley felt when he grabbed Harry at the window (the begining of OOTP) was really Tom protecting Harry? vmonte From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 11 14:13:44 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:13:44 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's n ame - More names) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98053 > > Gina replies: > I think it is obvious. Sirius is family to Harry and you call family > more familiar names. You do not always use the formal more respectful > approach as you do with teachers or even older friends. Lupin is an adult > and a teacher to Harry so naturally he is going to use a more formal tone. Potioncat: I don't remember, and this seems to be very clear to those who are posting. Are you talking about how Harry addresses Remus or how he thinks about him? What does he call him when they speak? And, wouldn't it be up to Lupin to say, "Call me Remus."? I know he's always corrected if he refers to "Snape." but does he ever refer to other adults with just last name in front of an adult? (For example, the trio often refer to Dumbledore, but there isn't anyone to correct them.) Potioncat who remembers when children and young adults always used sir and ma'am when speaking to an adult. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 11 14:28:22 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:28:22 -0000 Subject: Q's about house-elves In-Reply-To: <20040511062509.50538.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98054 snipping along the way.... Franzi wrote: > 2. Who is the master of Hogwarts's house-elves? I always assumed it to be Dumbledore because Dobby and Winky came to work for DD in GoF. In OoP however, is seems Umbridge is giving orders to the elves too. So maybe all theachers are regarded as masters over the elves? But what about students? According to Dobby in CoS only an elf's master can set it free. Well, in OoP Hermione obviously believes or knows (something mentioned in "Hogwarts: a History" perhaps?) to have the authority to set elves free when she knits all the elf closes. However, I found it hard to believe that students would be given that kind of power. I'm just picturing a scene where a house- elf is bond to answer to the trio's questions about Snape's dirty laundry (or his twins) ;-) Potioncat; I think the appointed Headmaster is the master of the House Elves. They would of course, follow the instructions of the teachers, as long as it was a "legal" request within the Headmaster's rules and I think they would obey requests of students, again as long it was an appropriate request. I cannot see how Hermione could "free" an elf, but this is magic and magic is not logical. So I'm not sure of this one. Obviously, if she can, they know how to avoid being freed. This has them in a role somewhat similar to a housekeeper or nanny but of course on a much lower standing. (How did it work in the Edwardian days when every proper house had servants?) Franzi: > 3. Something that made me feel uneasy since I finished OoP is what's going to happen to Kreacher now that Sirius is dead? I could think of three scenarios: > a) Who ever inherit Grimmauld Place gets Kreacher as part of the property. >>snip<<< Potioncat: We'll find out that Snape is a Black after all and he'll give Kreacher to the twins. ;-) Potioncat From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Tue May 11 12:16:58 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:16:58 -0000 Subject: Snape as a teacher (was Hagrid's name) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98055 Steve wrote: >I think, to some extent, Dumbledore believes that Snape also, >although unintentionally, teaches the student a valuable life >lesson. Thatlesson is that in the very long life of a wizard, you >will meet and be forced to work with people who are capable but not >very pleasant. In real life, as we all know from experience, you >have to learn to deal with these people. >Slight Rant: this is a lesson that kids today are not learning, that >why you find so many self-centered impolite 'Snape'-like kids in the >world. Kids who all have a very Draconian (Draco-like) sense of >priviledge, and can't believe that the entire world doesn't exits for >the sole purpose of making them happy. A misconception that many >never get over in a lifetime. Consequently, once they are out of >college and in the real world, they do not function very well. So, >thank you very much Professor Dumbledore, that is indeed a valuable, >though very unpleasant, lesson for the kids to learn. (edit) >I do agree to a limited extent, that Dumbledore is slightly blinded >by the good Snape does. I think if he really knew how horribly >miserable some kids like Neville were, he would tell Snape to ease >up a bit. Leah: I don't disagree with the principle of children learning the world does not revolve around them, or that they will have to work with and adjust to some pretty difficult individuals. I'm interested though, that you use the example of Draco, because I can not recall any way in which Snape has acted to make Draco question his world view of the importance of himself, his father, and Slytherins in general. Indeed, Snape's continual picking on the Gryffindor children, including ones like Hermione, who are genuinely hardworking and interested in learning, would seem to reinforce Draco's beliefs. I can understand that there may be reasons that Snape behaves like this, the need to keep up a front for Lucius Malfoy and friends being the most obvious. One could also argue that Snape believes that by toughening up Harry and Neville he is preparing them for what is in store. I think however, that Snape can't forget Harry is the son of the pampered and arrogant James, (and was genuinely taken aback by Harry's memories of childhood), and Neville is..well an easy target. I don't imagine many people come out of McGonagall's classes thinking the world owes them a living, but I know who I would rather be taught by Leah (who thinks that Snape is one of the most interesting characters in the books) From Hawkfalco at comcast.net Tue May 11 13:15:25 2004 From: Hawkfalco at comcast.net (hawkfalco) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 13:15:25 -0000 Subject: LV last descendant of Slytherin ? (was : Re: Harry stepping up to the plate.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Del replies : > Apart from the fact that the right word should have > been "descendant" and not "ancestor", I still don't trust that > statement too much. My main concern is : how does DD know that ? Sorry, my copy of Chamber of Secrets (Scholastic, first edition, 46th printing) clearly states "ancestor". A difference in your edition would make clear the discrepancy here but I don't think either word would change the gist of the discussion. Why does DD know what he knows? Have no idea. Does DD know everything? Not likely. But after reading the five books repeatedly I would wager it is because he is a very old and learned scholar of all things wizarding and of the great mysteries of life in general. Without the stories becoming some huge massive tome that explains everything about everybody I have to take some things on faith that are consistent with a characters behavior and experience. No doubt there is some chance for truth in the speculations you have brought forth but there has yet to be anything in the books to support them. I wish I had time for a proper and longer reply but I must away to work. I would much rather sit here to sip coffee and talk Harry & friends. Hawk From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 11 14:48:16 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:48:16 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98057 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, BrwNeil at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/11/2004 3:06:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > theanimallover_11 at y... writes: > It seems everyone has missed the point of my original post. My question was why over 100 dementors were at Hogwarts to begin with if their only job was to guard the gate. Also if drawn to the Quidditch field because of the large crowd, why do they seem to be paying attention only to Harry. > As Snape says, "by the time I had come 'round they were heading back to their postions at the entrances...." Note the plural. The gates are also not the only way onto the grounds. One may also reach Hogwarts by crossing the lake, as the First Years do every year, and as the Dementors themselves do when they attack Harry and Sirius at the end of PoA. There have to be enough Dementors to guard all the entrances, the perimeter of the lake, and to deal with a powerful Dark Wizard if they ever catch him. As for why Dementors are drawn to Harry, that's easy. Harry has in great abundance the good feeling that they feed upon. Thanks to his mother's sacrifice he is a repository of the power which Dumbledore does not name (and isn't *that* interesting...is he afraid of it?) but which, IMO, can only be pure love. Pippin From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue May 11 15:15:03 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:15:03 -0000 Subject: The attack of the BRAIN! New memories for Ron? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98058 vmonte: I'm sure this has been discussed before, so excuse me. I'm curious if someone could point me to any posts regarding the tank of brains at the MoM. Does anyone have an idea of what, why, and whose exactly they were? I love the scene in the MoM when the brain flies towards Ron and both the Order and the DEs freeze to watch the action. My guess is that the brain that attacked Ron has probably altered him for good. Are these the brains of Prophets/Seers, time-travellers? I can't remember right now what room the tank was in. vmonte From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue May 11 15:20:55 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:20:55 -0000 Subject: LV last descendant of Slytherin ? (was : Re: Harry stepping up to the plate.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98059 I, Del, wrote : > > Apart from the fact that the right word should have > > been "descendant" and not "ancestor", I still don't trust that > > statement too much. My main concern is : how does DD know > > that ? Hawk answered : > Sorry, my copy of Chamber of Secrets (Scholastic, first edition, > 46th printing) clearly states "ancestor". A difference in > your edition would make clear the discrepancy here but I don't > think either word would change the gist of the discussion. Del replies : Sorry, I wasn't clear. The books *do* say "ancestor", but they should have said "descendant", unless there's a massive time-travel twist involved. But that's just a detail anyway. Hawk also answered : > Why does DD know what he knows? > Have no idea. > Does DD know everything? > Not likely. Del replies : To make things even more complicated, I'd like to ask how Tom Riddle learned he was a descendant of Slytherin while still in school. And if he, a mere student, could do so, how come nobody else found that out when they were looking for the Heir of Slytherin who had released the Basilisk ? But of course I'm assuming that they *were* looking for the Heir of Slytherin, maybe they weren't. Del From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 11 15:25:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:25:29 -0000 Subject: The attack of the BRAIN! New memories for Ron? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98060 > vmonte: > I'm sure this has been discussed before, so excuse me. I'm curious > if someone could point me to any posts regarding the tank of brains > at the MoM. Does anyone have an idea of what, why, and whose exactly > they were? > > Potioncat: I don't know what it was, but I thought "Think Tank." Later Pomfrey says something like, "thoughts can leave worse scars than other injuries..." and I seem to recall "strand of thought" but I don't remember if that was my interpretation of the tentacles or if it was in the book. So I really haven't helped here, have I? Potioncat From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue May 11 15:29:00 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:29:00 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: <149e91149763.149763149e91@tampabay.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98061 Pippin As for navigating the complexities of the Muggle world without help, I don't think he'd have to. Mrs. Figg and the Weasley cousin who's an accountant are probably only two of many who've abandoned the wizarding world by choice or by force. Surely not every wizard/Muggle marriage has the happy couple choosing the wizarding world to live in. I'm sure Harry could get whatever help he needs. Money talks. Bookworm: Point taken. I forgot about the Weasley cousin. Mrs. Figg seems a bit eccentric, so I'm not sure she'd be much help there. Jim from Qatar I think everyone is going the wrong way with this. Why can't Harry get all of LV powers? Why can't he be the next DD who defeted another Dark wizard early in his life? Sorry I'm on the road and don't have my books in front of me. Why can't Harry come out of this more powerful than when he went into this? This would set him up to become a great teacher and the next Head Master. Instead of going way to the left why don't we think the best for Harry? I think he will come out of this better off than when he started. Bookworm: Hopefully he will. (My original comment was: The thought of Harry being thrown back into the muggle world after 7 years in the WW just doesn't work for me. He would be woefully unprepared to function as an adult in that world.) This discussion started as speculation on my part. JKR has made reference to the Bible. One message I get out of it is Hope and Redemption. `Hopefully' she will focus on the positive instead of the less positive Sacrifice without redemption. Ravenclaw Bookworm From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Tue May 11 15:48:36 2004 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 08:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as a teacher (was Hagrid's name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040511154836.18470.qmail@web12209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98062 > Leah: > > I don't disagree with the principle of children > learning the world > does not revolve around them, or that they will have > to work with and > adjust to some pretty difficult individuals. I'm > interested though, > that you use the example of Draco, because I can not > recall any way > in which Snape has acted to make Draco question his > world view of the > importance of himself, his father, and Slytherins in > general. Indeed, > Snape's continual picking on the Gryffindor > children, including ones > like Hermione, who are genuinely hardworking and > interested in > learning, would seem to reinforce Draco's beliefs. Chris: Using only Snape as an example, that line of thought holds up. However, it is stated over and over that Slytherins are discriminated against by teachers, students and the general public simply for being Slytherin. (ie the Shreiking Shack incident; Draco also getting detention for reporting mischief in his first year, yet when Harry and Hermione do it, they are left off in his third year, etc.) There are countless rumors about Slytherins being evil right from sorting. So far we have not seen anyone sorted into Slytherin that has not wanted to be, but I predict that will come up in the next book, so we don't know of a Slytherin defector. It may be we that student is too afraid of everyone else to try to make friends outside. We only see Slytherin wanna-bes Draco, Crabbe & Goyle from Harry's Slytherin dislinking view. It seems as if Snape is trying to pamper the Slytherins in a very personality developing time to make sure they know there will be people in the world that will care for them, because no one else does. I would personally would like to see Dumbledore and McGonnagal be called upon their bias just as Snape is. ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 11 16:04:28 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:04:28 -0000 Subject: Snape as a teacher (was Hagrid's name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98063 > Steve wrote: > >I think, to some extent, Dumbledore believes that Snape also, > >although unintentionally, teaches the student a valuable life > >lesson. Thatlesson is that in the very long life of a wizard, you > >will meet and be forced to work with people who are capable but not > >very pleasant. In real life, as we all know from experience, you > >have to learn to deal with these people. > snip<< > >I do agree to a limited extent, that Dumbledore is slightly blinded by the good Snape does. I think if he really knew how horribly miserable some kids like Neville were, he would tell Snape to ease up a bit. > > Leah: > > snip<< > > I can understand that there may be reasons that Snape behaves like > this, the need to keep up a front for Lucius Malfoy and friends being > the most obvious. One could also argue that Snape believes that by > toughening up Harry and Neville he is preparing them for what is in > store. I think however, that Snape can't forget Harry is the son of > the pampered and arrogant James, (and was genuinely taken aback by > Harry's memories of childhood), and Neville is..well an easy target. snip> Potioncat: I don't think DD hired Snape for his teaching style or to teach a life lesson. He hired him to have him at Hogwarts to help fight LV. Fortunately enough he was willing to teach and was well versed in Dark Arts and Potions. DD knows what Snape is and I think DD knows you can't change a person. I suppose he thinks Snape, although unpleasnt, isn't harming the students. As Steve says, he may be blinded by the good Snape does do. As for that, to DD, Snape must still seem to be a very young man. DD may be grooming him for his destiny just as DD is grooming Harry. It seems to me, that all the teachers are teaching all the students. No one seems to be trying to keep one group from learning as much. Snape seems to be trying to make sure that Longbottom and Potter really learn potions. We don't see the other teachers doing this, but perhaps since they aren't as disagreeable as Snape, Harry doesn't notice it so much. The really nasty things Snape does, doesn't have to do with learning. It may be mean, it may affect Harry's marks, but it doesn't affect what he learned. And that does seem to be a sort of Muggle baiting for Snape's cover with Draco. How Snape reconciles that behavior with his non-DE Slytherins, I do not know. Potioncat (who won't mention the twins even if they are as cute as bugs!)(for non-Southerners, that's a good thing.) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 11 16:02:06 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:02:06 -0000 Subject: Snape as a teacher (was Hagrid's name) In-Reply-To: <20040511154836.18470.qmail@web12209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98064 > Chris: >... it is stated over and over that > Slytherins are discriminated against by teachers, > students and the general public simply for being > Slytherin. (ie the Shreiking Shack incident; Draco > also getting detention for reporting mischief in his > first year, yet when Harry and Hermione do it, they > are left off in his third year, etc.) Chris, I'm wondering if you could provide something specific for its being stated over & over again that Slytherins are discriminated against by teachers, students & the general public? Right now I'm not seeing discrimination in the Shrieking Shack incident, because I'm not sure what part of it you're referring to. Also, I'm not grasping what you're saying about H&H in book three vs. Draco in book one. I'm just curious if you could expand on this more, because widespread *discrimination* against the Slyths by teachers, students & the general public is not something I recall [and I'm not saying it hasn't happened--just that I'm not recalling it]. Negative stereotyping certainly goes on; is that what you're thinking of when you say discrimination? Siriusly Snapey Susan From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue May 11 16:08:17 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:08:17 -0000 Subject: In essence divided. What was left of Voldy's humanity is trapped in H ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98065 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mightymaus75" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > > > Someone recently mentioned the "in essence divided" comment by DD. > > Could a part of Voldemort, aside from certain talents, be inside > > Harry? Is it possible that when Voldemort attacked baby Harry that > > he lost whatever was left of his humanity? Could a part of Tom be > > inside Harry? Didn't Harry once comment that the name Tom Riddle > > seemed familiar, like an old friend he had as a child? Is it > > possible that Lily's spell tore Voldemort's soul/essence literally > > in half? Could Tom have been absorbed into Harry? > > > > vmonte > > See the KITTENS & RAINBOWS theory website: > http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html > > Or alternatively see messages: #78982, #79691, #83445. > > -Maus I have posted something similar to this before, but one hypothesis about the prophecy, particularly the "one cannot live while the other survives" may actually be referring to persona versus person. Persona: Voldemort, The Boy Who Lived Person: Tom Riddle, Harry Potter If they remain in their personas, the persons cannot survive. If, however, they live in their person, the personas must go. This adds the idea of redemption of Tom Riddle the person, while Lord Voldemort can be vanquished. Just a thought. Julie From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 11 16:19:34 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:19:34 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98066 > Jim from Qatar > I think everyone is going the wrong way with this. Why can't Harry get all of LV powers? > > Why can't he be the next DD who defeted another Dark wizard early in his life? Sorry I'm on the road and don't have my books in front of me. Why can't Harry come out of this more powerful than when he went into this? This would set him up to become a great teacher and the next Head Master. Instead of going way to the left why don't we think the best for Harry? I think he will come out of this better off than when he started. > > Bookworm: > Hopefully he will. (My original comment was: The thought of Harry being thrown back into the muggle world after 7 years in the WW just doesn't work for me. He would be woefully unprepared to function as an adult in that world.) This discussion started as speculation on my part. > > JKR has made reference to the Bible. One message I get out of it is Hope and Redemption. `Hopefully' she will focus on the positive instead of the less positive Sacrifice without redemption.< Pippin: Absolutely. Harry should come out of this with his heart's desire. But is that to be a great wizard? I think not. He's tempted by it, just as he's tempted by the thought of being a world class Quidditch player or a Tri-wizard champion. But what he really wants, what he's always wanted, is a family who loves him. He thinks he can't have that in this world. But he *can*, he just doesn't know it yet. Call me a shipper, call me a hopeless romantic, but when he's given up the wizarding world to save it, and it seems he's lost everything, there'll turn out to be one witch who thinks, like Arthur Weasley, that the Muggle world does not lack for wonder, and besides, any world with Harry in it is magical enough. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 11 16:21:28 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:21:28 -0000 Subject: Teacher's bias (was Re: Snape as a teacher )(was Hagrid's name) In-Reply-To: <20040511154836.18470.qmail@web12209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98067 > Chris: I would personally would like to see Dumbledore and > McGonnagal be called upon their bias just as Snape is. Potioncat: I know this is a wide tangent of your point, but two incidents come to my mind about McGonagall and Snape. I think they've seen so much juvinile behavior that some of it just doesn't phase them anymore. It seems to me that they really enjoy competing with each other for both the House Cup and the Quidditch Cup. And I laugh every time I think of this. I can't tell you even which books these happen in. McGonagall doesn't give the Gryffindors homework so that they can prepare for the upcoming match. I must presume then, that she did give homework to the other classes. Prior to another match, Snape suggests that a Gryffindor player botched a spell on herself rather than "believing" the witnesses who say a Slytherin performed a hex on her. But on a serious note, Did anyone think McGonagall was overboard in OoP when the Weasleys and Harry went after Malfoy? And did anyone think maybe she recalled another Gryffindor "attack" on a single Slytherin? Potioncat From drdara at yahoo.com Tue May 11 16:58:59 2004 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Evans and the Magical World Message-ID: <20040511165859.57692.qmail@web60703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98068 Don't know if this has ever been mentioned before or not, but maybe the Evans had some kind of connection that is not blood related to the magical world. Couold they have been muggle contacts between the muggle ministry and the MOM. If they worked and knew of magic and their daughter was invited to attend the best magical school then that would be why they were proud. Or maybe they had a magical family in their neighborhood. And they were friends and they watched the magical children do magic as youngsters and when lily did the same small magic they hoped that maybe she might be magic too. Or they never knew what she did was magic until this magic family moved in next door and told them it was the beginning signs of magic. The fun part is figuring out who the magic family was. Was it the Snapes, and Severus and Lily grew up as friends and that's why she stuck up for him when James was picking on him. Or maybe it was the Potters and Lily always thought James was an arrogant berk. Maybe she tagged along with him as kids, for Americans think of Winny and Kevin in the wonder years. When they started junior high, Winnie had blossomed over the summer and Kevin began to think of her in another way. Well what if James didn't see her the entire summer before Hogwarts and when he saw he was like WOW she grew up. And of course Lily ignored him like he ignored her when they were younger. Well those are just some of my thoughts. Danielle D. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 11 17:15:30 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:15:30 -0000 Subject: The Evans and the Magical World In-Reply-To: <20040511165859.57692.qmail@web60703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98069 danielle dassero wrote: > Don't know if this has ever been mentioned before or > not, but maybe the Evans had some kind of connection > that is not blood related to the magical world. >>snip<< > > > Or maybe they had a magical family in their > neighborhood. Or they never knew what she > did was magic until this magic family moved in next > door and told them it was the beginning signs of > magic. > Potioncat: I don't think this is too farfetched. We've seen examples of bewitched items falling into Muggle hands, of houses going back to Muggles, and of witches falling in love with Muggles. There must be some contact between the two worlds. In one of JKR's interviews she says something about children going to Muggle schools. I couldn't see how magic children could have attended Muggle schools, but perhaps that is what she meant. (I assumed Muggleborn wizards and witches went to Muggle schools.) But it always seemed strange, the wording, "They were so proud to have a witch in the family." Potioncat (who suddenly can't get Samantha and Derwood Stevens out of her mind!) From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Tue May 11 16:25:22 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as a teacher (was Hagrid's name) In-Reply-To: <20040511154836.18470.qmail@web12209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040511162522.51481.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98070 Chris: It seems as if Snape is trying to pamper the Slytherins in a very personality developing time to make sure they know there will be people in the world that will care for them, because no one else does. I would personally would like to see Dumbledore and McGonnagal be called upon their bias just as Snape is. animallover_11: I have not really seen that MM and DD are biased. All houses seem to be treated the same. Yes MM wanted to win the housecup and the quidditch cup against Snape but that seemed to be more like old friends that were "rival" school teams. The other students and teachers were cheering for Griffyndor simply because Slytherin had been winning everything for the last 7 years...it was time for a change. I am sure that the houses are not cheering against Griffyndor since they have been on a winning streak. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dk59us at yahoo.com Tue May 11 17:34:12 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:34:12 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98071 > Jim from Qatar: > I think everyone is going the wrong way with this. Why can't Harry > get all of LV powers? > > I think he will come out of this better off than when he started. > > Bookworm: > Hopefully he will. (My original comment was: The thought of Harry > being thrown back into the muggle world after 7 years in the WW just > doesn't work for me. He would be woefully unprepared to function as > an adult in that world.) This discussion started as speculation on > my part. > > JKR has made reference to the Bible. One message I get out of it is > Hope and Redemption. `Hopefully' she will focus on the positive > instead of the less positive Sacrifice without redemption. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm Now if we assume that the series will wrap up in some way that parallels the Bible--hardly a foregone conclusion, as the books may have Judeo-Christian underpinnings and yet not be an allegory or retelling of a biblical story--than the hardest sacrifices are precisely those that involve the hero giving up what he/she thinks is most important to him in order to be redeemed. I tend to think Harry will sacrifice something very important--and he will be redeemed, but I'm not convinced that that redemption will be something conventional. I don't really know what I think it will be, but I suspect I'll be surprised by the ending. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 11 18:35:51 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:35:51 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98072 Susan > Anyway, when you say the Dementors are tracking Sirius at the end of PoA, are you talking about the night all h*@# broke loose in the Shrieking Shack, when they would've kissed him if not for Harry's patronous? < Yes. The sequence of events is as follows: 1) The full moon appears 2)The unconscious Snape collides with Lupin, Pettigrew and Ron 3)Black freezes, and throws out his arm to stop Harry and Hermione 4)Lupin begins to transform 5)Black catches Harry around the waist to stop him running to help Ron 6)Crookshanks backs away 7)Lupin completes his transformation 8)Sirius transforms 9)Sirius battles the werewolf 10) Pettigrew dives for Lupin's dropped wand 11) Pettigrew stuns Ron 12)Harry uses expelliarmus on Pettigrew 13) Pettigrew transforms 14) The werewolf takes flight towards the forest 15)Padfoot pursues Scabbers toward the lake 16) Harry and Hermione dash over to Ron 17) From beyond their vision, they hear the yelping of a dog in pain 18) Harry runs flat out toward the sound 19) Harry senses the cold of a dementor's approach 20) He reaches the lake shore and sees that Sirius has turned back into a man 21) Harry sees least a hundred dementors gliding toward them around the lake. The Dementors' arrival serves Peter well--not only do they stop Sirius, they also leave the entrances unguarded, allowing Peter to complete his escape from the grounds. But what brings them? Surely a dog chasing a rat wouldn't entice them from their posts? Nor can it be Harry's heartfelt desire to help Sirius--the Dementors are already approaching, causing Sirius to yelp in pain, while Harry is still trying to get his head straight. The only way I can figure is that someone not only summoned the Dementors from the entrances, but directed them until they'd gotten close enough to Sirius to force him into human form. We don't know exactly how one communicates with Dementors. But if Voldemort can put images into Harry's mind from hundreds of miles away, is it far fetched to suppose that a human could serve as a dementor's "eyes" ? Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 11 18:53:56 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:53:56 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98073 Siriusly Snapey Susan > > Anyway, when you say the Dementors are tracking Sirius at the > end of PoA, are you talking about the night all h*@# broke loose > in the Shrieking Shack, when they would've kissed him if not for > Harry's patronous? < Pippin: > Yes. The sequence of events is as follows: > 15)Padfoot pursues Scabbers toward the lake > 16) Harry and Hermione dash over to Ron > 17) From beyond their vision, they hear the yelping of a dog in > pain > 18) Harry runs flat out toward the sound > 19) Harry senses the cold of a dementor's approach > 20) He reaches the lake shore and sees that Sirius has turned > back into a man > 21) Harry sees least a hundred dementors gliding toward them > around the lake. > > The Dementors' arrival serves Peter well--not only do they stop > Sirius, they also leave the entrances unguarded, allowing Peter > to complete his escape from the grounds. But what brings > them? Surely a dog chasing a rat wouldn't entice them from their > posts? Nor can it be Harry's heartfelt desire to help Sirius--the > Dementors are already approaching, causing Sirius to yelp in > pain, while Harry is still trying to get his head straight. > > The only way I can figure is that someone not only summoned > the Dementors from the entrances, but directed them until they'd > gotten close enough to Sirius to force him into human form. > > ... is it far fetched to suppose that a human could serve as a > dementor's "eyes" ? Siriusly Snapey Susan again: Fascinating question--who *would* have sent or called the Dementors? I think you're right that they must have been sent or called because I now realize the problem w/ my original idea that the Dementors simply sensed a lot of "human action/emotion" because: 1) it wouldn't necessarily have been positive emotions they'd have been sensing at that moment, which is what they want; and 2) the school has been filled with students & staff all along and the Dementors haven't charged en masse like that. So as I see it we're left with at least a couple of questions: 1) Can dementors force an animagi to transform himself back into a human? 2) Who WOULD have called or sent the Dementors AND have been in a position to have known to do so at that moment? **I THINK even ESE!Lupin fan Pippin would have to agree that Lupin couldn't have done it, since he'd transformed into a werewolf already. **Snape's unconscious, so he's out. **Puppetmaster!DD fans--is there any way/any reason DD would have done so? [I don't think so....] **Could Pettigrew have somehow done it before he transformed into Scabbers? **Could/Would Fudge have done so? It's been recently suggested that Fudge set up Sirius' escape so that he could release the Dementors and set them onto Harry. This might play nicely into that scenario? **Other candidates? Siriusly Snapey Susan From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Tue May 11 19:28:46 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:28:46 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98074 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Siriusly Snapey Susan > **Other candidates? > Carolyn: The key mechanism is that Marauder's Map, still lying on Lupin's desk, for anyone to see. Its still there the next day, and Lupin gives it back to Harry. Any of the teachers, or indeed numerous kids *could* have gone into the DADA office that evening and watched the interesting events that were unfolding out in the grounds. From ekrbdg at msn.com Tue May 11 19:31:13 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:31:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who owns the Riddle House? References: Message-ID: <014b01c4378e$86b4dc20$d28bf343@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 98075 *Mario's comment* I am re-reading for the nth time GOF, and I thought that Malfoy could be the mysterious owner of the house. Any theories? I apologize if this came up before, I did not find anything in the archives. Thanks Mario *Kimberly's comment* Everytime I read that passage, I become quite curious as to just who owns this house now and whether or not we'll re-visit in in future books. I don't think it's the Malfoys that own it because the house went through several owners before it came to the current owner. (Canon text, GoF, Amer. ed. pg. 4 "But Frank did not leave. He stayed to tend the garden for the next family who lived in the Riddle House, and then the next-for neither family stayed long." Had the Malfoys seen a need for it, I would think they'd have snatched it up right away and it wouldn't have been sold to at least 2 other families first. Kimberly --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.672 / Virus Database: 434 - Release Date: 4/28/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue May 11 19:39:08 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:39:08 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rtb333" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" > wrote: > > Kneasy Wrote: > The case for an ESE!Fudge is right > > there, its like its *too* obvious. (now I keep thinking about how > odd > > it is that the dementers not only attacked Harry at the end of PoA > > but tried to perform the "kiss" on him, even though Sirius was > lying > > feet away). > > > Rob Now: > > I have been preching this from the begining. The Dementors are still > loyal to Voldemort and are working in his interest and I deduced that > since this is the case, the person in control of them is also a > follower of Voldemort. There is no evidence that he Fudge was not > one of the original DE. Actually there is good evidence that he is a > DE. Him and his buddy Umbridge do everything in their power to try > and ruin Harry, even making attempts on his life. > > The evidence is out there and all you have to do is look through > Fudges actions. (Actions will show the true motives of a character). > > If you think that I may be off the wall, just think about the > Dementors giving a kiss to Crouch Jr. shortly after he was > discovered. Before DD got to ask him any questions, the Dementors > swooped in and Killed/ Kissed him. Why, because they are working for > Voldemort and they needed to silence a witness. If this is not > enough for you also think about how it is possible that the only > other three that escaped Azcaban where notorious DE. Interesting. > The only other to escape was Serius, because everyone thought he was > behind the deaths of the Potters and that he would want to kill Harry. > > Rob Mugglenet had an interesting essay on "The Missing Death Eater" in the North Tower. Whoom does Maline aruge (rather persuasively I might add) as being the missing DE? Fudge. From patientx3 at aol.com Tue May 11 19:54:58 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:54:58 -0000 Subject: Snape as a teacher (was Hagrid's name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98077 Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: >>I'm wondering if you could provide something specific for its being stated over & over again that Slytherins are discriminated against by teachers, students & the general public?<< HunterGreen: Well, I wasn't the one who wrote the original post, but I can think of at least one example. There's the end-of-term feasts in PS/SS and CoS, when Dumbledore drops A LOT of points on Gryffindor to help them win the cup over Slytherin (the action itself I don't see as being so bad, just doing it in public, *especially* after Slytherin is already thought to have won, and the amount of points is rather high too). Then there's in GoF, when Fred and George hiss at a first year just because he was sorted into Slytherin. (I'm not sure about this, but don't Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw root for Gryffindor over Slytherin in quidditch trials / housepoints?). From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue May 11 20:01:02 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:01:02 -0000 Subject: This may be an old subject but, Who owns the Riddle House? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiramertip" wrote: > I am re-reading for the nth time GOF, and I thought that Malfoy > could be the mysterious owner of the house. Any theories? > > I apologize if this came up before, I did not find anything in the > archives. > > Thanks > > Mario bboy_mn: Well, the only real answer is that, no one knows. I have often speculated that indeed Lucius Malfoy is the wealthy business man who owns it for 'tax reasons'. Others have speculated that it might be Dumbledore. Here is an interesting thought. It seems reasonably well known that Tom Marvelo Ridddle (aka: Voldemort) was the Son of Tom Riddle Sr. who was in turn the son of Marvelo Riddle (Tom Jr's grandfather, Tom Sr's Father). With their death, that left Tom Jr, the first born son, as the only heir to the Riddle Estate. Does anyone think that Tom Riddle ever claimed that estate? I speculate that Tom/Voldemort claimed the estate and used the money he inherited along with the money from the sale of the Riddle house to finance his travel while he learned the Dark Art. Later, after Tom became Voldemort as we know him, the house had passed through several owners and eventually fallen into neglect and disuse. At that time, and at a substantially reduced price, Lucius Malfoy bought the house on Voldemort's behalf. Ready for the time when Voldemort decided to retire to a quiet life in the country. Alternate theory; Dumbledore bought it because he knew it was tied to Voldemort and at some point Voldemort might want to use it again. Once everything has been resolve in book 7, Dumbledore will give it to Harry, where Harry will retire to a quiet life in the country. Just a thought. bboy_mn From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue May 11 20:10:56 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:10:56 -0000 Subject: Teacher's bias (was Re: Snape as a teacher )(was Hagrid's name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > But on a serious note, Did anyone think McGonagall was overboard >in OoP when the Weasleys and Harry went after Malfoy? And did >anyone think maybe she recalled another Gryffindor "attack" on a >single Slytherin? Me! MEEEEE! That annoys me To No End. Her whole "two against one" speech rings utterly hollow. Especially as she rants on and on saying, "You Provoked him!" That *other* attack (notice the lack of quotation marks here) was entirely UNPROVOKED. More McG favoritism: Harry's Nimbus 2000 in his 1st year after it's plainly stated that 1st years may not have their own broomsticks. Can you IMAGINE the howling if *Snape* had slapped *Draco* onto the Slyth quidditch team in *year one* and kitted him up with a Nimbus 2000? Whooooeee! (Even in CoS Snape didn't buy the Slyth teams' N-2001s!) Mel From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 11 20:13:44 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:13:44 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98080 Susan: > > So as I see it we're left with at least a couple of questions: > 1) Can dementors force an animagi to transform himself back into a human?< Pippin: Lupin says that dementors are supposed to be able to drain a wizard of his powers. Sirius says he was able to keep his powers and transform in his cell only because the thought that he was innocent gave him the strength--it wasn't a happy thought so the dementors couldn't take it from him. But once outside Azkaban, it seems that thought wasn't strong enough. Susan: > 2) Who WOULD have called or sent the Dementors AND have been in a position to have known to do so at that moment? **I THINK even ESE!Lupin fan Pippin would have to agree that Lupin couldn't have done it, since he'd transformed into a werewolf already.<< Pippin: Mwahaha! You underestimate the fiendish cunning of ESE!Lupin. The key to the whole thing is back in ch 8, where Snape tells us that he has brewed an entire cauldronful of potion, "if you need more." By the time Snape reached Lupin's office with the potion and saw the map, which Lupin had ever so conveniently left for him, ESE!Lupin had already been to Snape's office (via floo powder, perhaps) helped himself to the extra potion, and entered the willow. So you see, ESE!Lupin *did* take his potion the night of the Shrieking Shack, and thus he had a human mind, fully capable of communicating with dementors. Pippin who really needs to take a break from posting so she can work up a comprehensive essay on ESE!Lupin before the PoA-related deluge From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 11 20:16:37 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:16:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: This may be an old subject but, Who owns the Riddle House? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98081 bboy_mn: Well, the only real answer is that, no one knows. I have often speculated that indeed Lucius Malfoy is the wealthy business man who owns it for 'tax reasons'. Others have speculated that it might be Dumbledore. * Alternate theory; Dumbledore bought it because he knew it was tied to Voldemort and at some point Voldemort might want to use it again. Once everything has been resolve in book 7, Dumbledore will give it to Harry, where Harry will retire to a quiet life in the country. Gina reply: Who would want to live in the house of the person that killed their parents? Not to say you theory is wrong, but if it was Dumbledore I would lean more to thinking it was so he could put his portrait spies to work. I think LV would know if Dumbledore bought it though so I would think Malfoy before DD. What about Fudge? I don't trust him at all and "tax reasons" sounds much more like an answer he would give and he does think himself a business man... Gina -who love to speculate. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From squeakinby at tds.net Tue May 11 21:22:45 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:22:45 -0500 Subject: definition of riddle Message-ID: <40A14425.4090508@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98082 I was going thru a garden catalog yesterday and saw a large sieve which was called a riddle. So I thought that was intriguing. Pen-sieve/riddle. Here's another definition of riddle (from Old English roedel, from roedan meaning "to give council" or "to read"): A universal form of literature in which a puzzling question or a conundrum is presented to the reader. The reader is often challenged to solve this enigma, which requires ingenuity in discovering the hidden meaning. A riddle may involve puns, symbolism, or unusual imagery. I leave this to more imaginative thinkers today. Jem From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 11 20:32:34 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:32:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] definition of riddle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98083 I was going thru a garden catalog yesterday and saw a large sieve which was called a riddle. So I thought that was intriguing. Pen-sieve/riddle. Here's another definition of riddle (from Old English roedel, from roedan meaning "to give council" or "to read"): A universal form of literature in which a puzzling question or a conundrum is presented to the reader. The reader is often challenged to solve this enigma, which requires ingenuity in discovering the hidden meaning. A riddle may involve puns, symbolism, or unusual imagery. I leave this to more imaginative thinkers today. Jem Gina writes: What about "I've seen P" Gina - who is way to impatient for the 6th book! :-) ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 11 21:02:36 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:02:36 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98084 Siriusly Snapey Susan [who's spelling out the whole thing since there are oodles of Susans here] previously wrote: >>> 1) Can dementors force an animagi to transform himself back into a human?<<< Pippin replied: >> Lupin says that dementors are supposed to be able to drain a wizard of his powers. Sirius says he was able to keep his powers and transform in his cell only because the thought that he was innocent gave him the strength--it wasn't a happy thought so the dementors couldn't take it from him. But once outside Azkaban, it seems that thought wasn't strong enough.<< SSSusan again: Hmmm. I think we may be seeing part this differently. You're pointing to Sirius' saying that in Azkaban he had that "I'm innocent" thought bopping around in his head all the time, which wasn't a happy thought, so he could continue to transform. So, now that he's out of Azkaban & has hooked up with Harry and started to sort all this out-- and he is HAPPY about that--is it that the Dementors have more to feed on? I could maybe buy that.... But right at the moment all this happens, he's also angrier than all get-out at Pettigrew, and probably at least worried if not outright panicked as Lupin begins to transform, so his emotions are a mixed bag. Does that give the Dementors enough to feed on? Regardless of the answer to that, I guess my main question is still, "WHATEVER type of emotion Sirius was experiencing, can Dementors FORCE someone in animagus form to transform back into human form?" I mean, he'd already transformed into Padfoot and was clearly in dog form when Harry first hears him yelping as the Dementors approach, yet he's human by the time Harry sees him. Maybe the Dementors did cause it, but I don't quite see how they would have.... Given Scabbers' 12 years in rat form, it seems that, once transformed, it doesn't take a continuous magical effort to stay transformed. That is, I don't think Sirius was having to concentrate on staying Padfoot and the Dementors somehow broke that concentration. So can they really MAKE him perform the magic that would transform himself back to human? Siriusly Snapey Susan previously wrote: >>> 2) Who WOULD have called or sent the Dementors AND have been in a position to have known to do so at that moment? **I THINK even ESE!Lupin fan Pippin would have to agree that Lupin couldn't have done it, since he'd transformed into a werewolf already.<<< Pippin, apparently quite pleased with this perfect set-up of a question, responded: >> Mwahaha! You underestimate the fiendish cunning of ESE!Lupin. The key to the whole thing is back in ch 8, where Snape tells us that he has brewed an entire cauldronful of potion, "if you need more." By the time Snape reached Lupin's office with the potion and saw the map, which Lupin had ever so conveniently left for him, ESE!Lupin had already been to Snape's office (via floo powder, perhaps) helped himself to the extra potion, and entered the willow. So you see, ESE!Lupin *did* take his potion the night of the Shrieking Shack, and thus he had a human mind, fully capable of communicating with dementors.<< SSSusan again: What can I say? You've covered your bases as usual. :-) But would Sirius not have recognized that Lupin was mentally "with it" and just play-acting at attacking? Siriusly Snapey Susan From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 11 21:27:46 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:27:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: <40A0E655.3050306@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98085 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: > delwynmarch wrote: > > > > khilari also wrote : > > > >>Also Lupin sounds like a name and Black doesn't. > > > > Del is puzzled : > > How so ? Jem: > I'm puzzled. Why Snuffles?? Geoff: I presume you mean why did they call Sirius Snuffles? I have always assumed it's because, in his Animagus form, he is a dog. From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Tue May 11 21:32:19 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:32:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) References: Message-ID: <001b01c4379f$70a97ce0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98086 Jem: > I'm puzzled. Why Snuffles?? Geoff: I presume you mean why did they call Sirius Snuffles? I have always assumed it's because, in his Animagus form, he is a dog. Silverthorne: And to further explain--'snuffling' is how dogs using their scenting ability is often described... "The dog snuffled through the trash" or "The dog snuffled the boys ear in a friendly manner..." ^^; (Sorry, thought I'd head that question off before it hit...) From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 11 21:36:34 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:36:34 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's n ame - More names) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > I don't remember, and this seems to be very clear to those who are > posting. Are you talking about how Harry addresses Remus or how he > thinks about him? What does he call him when they speak? And, > wouldn't it be up to Lupin to say, "Call me Remus."? > > I know he's always corrected if he refers to "Snape." but does he > ever refer to other adults with just last name in front of an > adult? Geoff: I haven't had time to go through with a fine toothcomb but, certainly in Dumbledore's presence, Harry refers to "Quirrell" in PS and "Umbridge" in OOTP. There could be others. He also refers to "Snape" in Hagrid's company and I think there are again other references with him. From squeakinby at tds.net Tue May 11 22:34:12 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:34:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A154E4.5010602@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98088 Geoff Bannister wrote: > > I presume you mean why did they call Sirius Snuffles? I have always > assumed it's because, in his Animagus form, he is a dog. And this dog has allergies/trouble breathing? I'm sorry. I just don't understand the appellation as it might apply to a dog or to Sirius or the dog star. Everything else makes so much sense but this one eludes me. Jem From squeakinby at tds.net Tue May 11 22:38:06 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:38:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: <001b01c4379f$70a97ce0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> References: <001b01c4379f$70a97ce0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <40A155CE.5010905@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98089 Silverthorne wrote: > And to further explain--'snuffling' is how dogs using their scenting ability > is often described... > > "The dog snuffled through the trash" or "The dog snuffled the boys ear in a > friendly manner..." > Is that a Britishism then? Because that I'd understand. It's like that "one-off" expression. I couldn't figure it out. Are people saying one OF a kind? Then someone explained it was one OFF the drawing board. Not something commonly said in America. Jem From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Tue May 11 21:40:34 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:40:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) References: <001b01c4379f$70a97ce0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <40A155CE.5010905@tds.net> Message-ID: <002101c437a0$97809d20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98090 Is that a Britishism then? Because that I'd understand. It's like that "one-off" expression. I couldn't figure it out. Are people saying one OF a kind? Then someone explained it was one OFF the drawing board. Not something commonly said in America. Jem Silverthorne: Or else it's used more commonly by 'older' americans--I read a lot of books when I was a child that used 'snuffle' and its variants as a term.,..and the closest I ever got to the UK was New Jersey....lol. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 11 21:47:01 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:47:01 -0000 Subject: LV last descendant of Slytherin ? (was : Re: Harry stepping up to the plate.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > I, Del, wrote : > > > Apart from the fact that the right word should have > > > been "descendant" and not "ancestor", I still don't trust that > > > statement too much. My main concern is : how does DD know > > > that ? > > Hawk answered : > > Sorry, my copy of Chamber of Secrets (Scholastic, first edition, > > 46th printing) clearly states "ancestor". A difference in > > your edition would make clear the discrepancy here but I don't > > think either word would change the gist of the discussion. > Del: > Sorry, I wasn't clear. The books *do* say "ancestor", but they > should have said "descendant", unless there's a massive time-travel > twist involved. But that's just a detail anyway. Geoff: I have a feeling that this is one of the more commonly quoted Flints. From squeakinby at tds.net Tue May 11 22:56:22 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:56:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: <002101c437a0$97809d20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> References: <001b01c4379f$70a97ce0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <40A155CE.5010905@tds.net> <002101c437a0$97809d20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <40A15A16.6060905@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98092 Silverthorne wrote: > Or else it's used more commonly by 'older' americans--I read a lot of books > when I was a child that used 'snuffle' and its variants as a term.,..and the > closest I ever got to the UK was New Jersey....lol. The first definition of snuffle in the Oxford English Dictionary is akin to sniffing in disdain. I think that fits Sirius' personality fairly well. Jem From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Tue May 11 22:07:36 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:07:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) References: <001b01c4379f$70a97ce0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <40A155CE.5010905@tds.net> <002101c437a0$97809d20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <40A15A16.6060905@tds.net> Message-ID: <003c01c437a4$5e6d4480$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98093 The first definition of snuffle in the Oxford English Dictionary is akin to sniffing in disdain. I think that fits Sirius' personality fairly well. Jem Silverthorne: At the risk of getting jumped by Sirius supporters, I would have to agree... I suspect the usage we're referring to in regards to 'sniffing like a dog' is possibly slang that derived both from the proper use of the original word and 'sniff' as a proper word as well---childrens books (where I most remember reading it) are often infamous for odd and made up slang--and all it takes is a few adults to carry it into adulthood for the slang to stick....^^ From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 11 22:12:17 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:12:17 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape [was: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98094 Potioncat: > > I know he's always corrected if he refers to "Snape." but does > > he ever refer to other adults with just last name in front of an > > adult? Geoff: > I haven't had time to go through with a fine toothcomb but, > certainly in Dumbledore's presence, Harry refers to "Quirrell" in > PS and "Umbridge" in OOTP. There could be others. He also refers > to "Snape" in Hagrid's company and I think there are again other > references with him. Siriusly Snapey Susan: I think if that's true with Quirrell, I wonder if it was after he was found out as The Bad Guy? For Umbridge, I imagine it's because NO ONE--staff included--respects her, and they know she's no professor. With Snape, though, I think DD points it out over & over because he believes that Snape is the person Harry most needs to remember *is* deserving of respect. Around staff members, have we ever heard the trio say just "McGonagall" or "Lupin" or "Flitwick" or "Sprout"? Yet his consistently saying just "Snape" to DD probably is something DD can't help noticing & remarking upon. As much as I despise Snape's methods with Harry and, esp., Neville, I think DD is right to call Harry on this disrespectfulness. It can't do anything to help improve his situation with Snape--er, with Professor Snape. Siriusly Snapey Susan From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 11 22:22:50 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:22:50 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Siriusly Snapey Susan [who's spelling out the whole thing Regardless of the answer to that, I guess my main question is still, "WHATEVER type of emotion Sirius was experiencing, can Dementors FORCE someone in animagus form to transform back into human form?" That is, I don't think Sirius was having to concentrate on staying Padfoot and the Dementors somehow broke that concentration. So can they really MAKE him perform the magic that would transform himself back to human? Pippin: I think we're seeing this differently IMO, although Sirius may not need to do magic to remain in his dog form, it is still his magical nature that allows him to be a dog. Drained of magic, he reverts to human form. Siriusly Snapey Susan: >But would Sirius not have recognized that Lupin was mentally "with it" and just play-acting at attacking? < Pippin: Hmmm...that would be a stronger objection if Sirius had ever seen a werewolf in its "natural" state. But he can't have. "Under [the animagi's] influence, I became less dangerous. My body was still wolfish, but my mind seemed to become less so while I was with them." --PoA ch 18 Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 11 22:55:11 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:55:11 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98096 Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > So can they really MAKE him perform the magic that would > > transform himself back to human? Pippin: > I think we're seeing this differently IMO, although Sirius > may not need to do magic to remain in his dog form, it is still > his magical nature that allows him to be a dog. Drained of magic, > he reverts to human form. SSS again: AHA!! Now I see what you're getting at. Yes, this makes sense to me now. (You see? You stick with me long enough and I'll finally get the point.) Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > But would Sirius not have recognized that Lupin was mentally > > "with it" and just play-acting at attacking? Pippin: > Hmmm...that would be a stronger objection if Sirius had ever > seen a werewolf in its "natural" state. But he can't have. > > "Under [the animagi's] influence, I became less dangerous. My > body was still wolfish, but my mind seemed to become less so > while I was with them." --PoA ch 18 SSS again: Damn, you're good at this! You've answered all my objections/what ifs and have evidence from canon to boot...all in, what, 15 minutes? I remembered that quote, but I had taken it to mean it was a gradual thing...that they'd seen him fully "werewolfy" but that with time he became less dangerous. Regardless, I confess it was a pretty desperate objection on my part in the first place. :-) Waving the white flag, I'm off for now! Siriusly Snapey Susan...who's still not buying ESE!Lupin, but who'll readily acknowledge now that this scene can fit in with that theory. From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Tue May 11 21:33:58 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:33:58 -0000 Subject: Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98097 > Lady McBeth: > [big snip} > I do like the theory about Hagrid being a parallel to St. Peter. > You might also be able to compare some other characters to the > apostles. Fudge is a "doubting Thomas"; he is unable to believe > until he sees with his own eyes. Rita Skeeter could be a Paul type > character. She's not really involved in the story line, but shares > the "truth" of the events at the end of GOF with the world. Paul if you remember, started out not believing and in fact persecuting the followers of Christ. Demetra: Interesting thoughts. I have always considered Snape to be a parallel to Saul/Paul. He started out as a Death Eater, persecuting the followers of DD. He then had his conversion (and I really want to know what the trigger was, dammit!) and is now not only on DD's side but one of his most trusted colleagues. Of course, other times I think of Snape as a parallel to the prodigal son. He was the one who went astray, only to return repentant. DD as the father figure, not only welcomed him back but gave him a position of prominence. In this scenario, whenever Sirius claims he doesn't believe Snape has changed, he reminds me of the other brother - the one who didn't leave his father and is very upset by the supposed favoritism the father pays to the prodigal son. From squeakinby at tds.net Wed May 12 00:04:34 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:04:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: <003c01c437a4$5e6d4480$05030f04@dslverizon.net> References: <001b01c4379f$70a97ce0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <40A155CE.5010905@tds.net> <002101c437a0$97809d20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <40A15A16.6060905@tds.net> <003c01c437a4$5e6d4480$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <40A16A12.4050400@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98098 Silverthorne wrote: > At the risk of getting jumped by Sirius supporters, I would have to agree... Oh dear! I hope not. It's obvious Sirius has had little regard for authority, and one can understand that given his family, so if he's "sniffing in disdain", sure, he has flaunted the rules and taken chances far more than Harry ever has no matter what Prof Snape may say. If he's a rogue that's his charm. But Snuffles still doesn't conjure a handsome rogue in my mind. It sounds like that allergic woman in the commercial with that really small dog, Baxter? Jem From l_zinkiewicz at yahoo.com Tue May 11 21:51:36 2004 From: l_zinkiewicz at yahoo.com (Lucy Zinkiewicz) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:51:36 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter holds lessons for health Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98099 Another argument to use against people who don't like HP... check out http://uninews.unimelb.edu.au/articleid_1364.html , where a professor of public health describes how Australian schools can benefit from learning more about HP. Interesting! Cheers Lucy From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Wed May 12 00:18:41 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:18:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) References: <001b01c4379f$70a97ce0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <40A155CE.5010905@tds.net> <002101c437a0$97809d20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <40A15A16.6060905@tds.net> <003c01c437a4$5e6d4480$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <40A16A12.4050400@tds.net> Message-ID: <000501c437b6$ae443e20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98100 But Snuffles still doesn't conjure a handsome rogue in my mind. It sounds like that allergic woman in the commercial with that really small dog, Baxter? Jem {Silverthorne} True, true...but then again, since it was his own idea in the first place to call himself "Snuffles", I suspect that his 'handsome rogue-ish looks' had very little influence....lol. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 00:20:10 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (rsteph1981) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 00:20:10 -0000 Subject: Connection between books 2 and 5 - veil? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98101 Did we ever come to a consensus on what the important bit from book 2 was? Because I just read this essay (someone at fictionalley posted the link) and it's interesting. If it's already been brought up, I apologize. I did seach the archive, but I just searched the word "nick". Anyway, this essay speculates that the black curtain in the death day party is the same as the veil in OOTP. Here's a link: http://harmony.portkey.org/theories/veilmystery.php Rebecca From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 00:26:01 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More In-Reply-To: <1084289148.8186.88628.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040512002601.14958.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98102 Re: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) delwynmarch wrote: > khilari also wrote : > >>Also Lupin sounds like a name and Black doesn't. > > Del is puzzled : > How so ? I'm puzzled. Why Snuffles?? Jem Mo: Lupin is Latin for "Wolf" Hence, the whole Werewolf thing... ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Wed May 12 01:04:16 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 01:04:16 -0000 Subject: Connection between books 2 and 5 - veil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rsteph1981" wrote: Did we ever come to a consensus on what the important bit from book 2 was? Because I just read this essay (someone at fictionalley posted the link) and it's interesting. If it's already been brought up, I apologize. I did seach the archive, but I just searched the word "nick". Anyway, this essay speculates that the black curtain in the death day party is the same as the veil in OOTP. Here's a link: http://harmony.portkey.org/theories/veilmystery.php Rebecca Inge: Aw, that was interesting. I wondered why the DeathDay-scene wasn't in the movie though. If the drapes to Nick's party resemble the veil in book 5 - wouldn't JK have thought it too important to leave out? Right now I'll take the time to read the two chapters involved here and see if I can find other similarities. Thanx for sharing. From squeakinby at tds.net Wed May 12 02:22:19 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:22:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: <000501c437b6$ae443e20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> References: <001b01c4379f$70a97ce0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <40A155CE.5010905@tds.net> <002101c437a0$97809d20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <40A15A16.6060905@tds.net> <003c01c437a4$5e6d4480$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <40A16A12.4050400@tds.net> <000501c437b6$ae443e20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <40A18A5B.4090103@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98104 Silverthorne wrote: > True, true...but then again, since it was his own idea in the first place to > call himself "Snuffles", I suspect that his 'handsome rogue-ish looks' had > very little influence....lol. Here's where I disagree. He didn't call himself Snuffles, JKR did. You name your characters for a reason, because they reflect something for you. It's a fit somehow. I just can't see into her mind to understand what she's saying with this. Jem. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 12 01:30:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 01:30:29 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: <40A18A5B.4090103@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98105 Jem (I think) > > Here's where I disagree. He didn't call himself Snuffles, JKR did. You > name your characters for a reason, because they reflect something for > you. It's a fit somehow. I just can't see into her mind to understand > what she's saying with this. > Potioncat: Snuffles fits as the sound a dog makes. It also sounds like the slang for death: snuffed. Was it foreshadowing? From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 12 01:41:15 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 01:41:15 -0000 Subject: Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98106 Demetra: > Of course, other times I think of Snape as a parallel to the prodigal > son. He was the one who went astray, only to return repentant. DD > as the father figure, not only welcomed him back but gave him a > position of prominence. In this scenario, whenever Sirius claims he > doesn't believe Snape has changed, he reminds me of the other > brother - the one who didn't leave his father and is very upset by > the supposed favoritism the father pays to the prodigal son. Potioncat: Interesting observation. Something else hit me as I was reading this. In at least one part of the PoA book, Snape reminds me more of the older brother, because here he is reminding DD that Serius "almost killed *me*" Another parallel is the unforgiving servant (Snape) who is forgiven a debt by the master (DD). This forgiven servant then tries to throw another servant(Black or Lupin?) into jail for not repaying a debt to him. Potioncat From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed May 12 01:55:03 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 01:55:03 -0000 Subject: Connection between books 2 and 5 - veil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98107 Rebecca wrote: > Did we ever come to a consensus on what the important bit from > book 2 was? > Because I just read this essay (someone at fictionalley posted the > link) and it's interesting. If it's already been brought up, I > apologize. Anyway, this essay speculates that the black curtain > in the death day party is the same as the veil in OOTP. > Here's a link: http://harmony.portkey.org/theories/veilmystery.php Inge replied: > Aw, that was interesting. I wondered why the DeathDay-scene wasn't > in the movie though. If the drapes to Nick's party resemble the > veil in book 5 - wouldn't JK have thought it too important to > leave out? Siriusly Snapey Susan: Absolutely, Inge, that was my reaction, too. The author of the essay chose to place this quote at the very top -- "There's one thing in Chamber, actually, that Jo indicated will play later in the series." -- Steve Kloves, Chamber of Secrets DVD Interview That's Steve Kloves, the screenwriter for the movie, of course. To then go on & propose this theory that the deathday party's drapes are the same as the veil from the DoM doesn't quite make sense, because the whole POINT of Kloves' comment was that he sometimes has to leave things *IN* the screenplay because JKR knows they're important. Yet Nick's deathday party *ISN'T* in the movie. On the other hand, the similarities the author notes are quite interesting.... Siriusly Snapey Susan From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed May 12 02:05:18 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 02:05:18 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98108 > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > > But would Sirius not have recognized that Lupin was mentally > > > "with it" and just play-acting at attacking? > > Pippin: > > Hmmm...that would be a stronger objection if Sirius had ever > > seen a werewolf in its "natural" state. But he can't have. > > > > "Under [the animagi's] influence, I became less dangerous. My > > body was still wolfish, but my mind seemed to become less so > > while I was with them." --PoA ch 18 > > > SSS again: > Damn, you're good at this! Waving the white flag, I'm off for now! > > Siriusly Snapey Susan...who's still not buying ESE!Lupin, but who'll readily acknowledge now that this scene can fit in with that theory. Bookworm: Jumping in where SSS left off --- IIRC, the potion makes Lupin sleepy so that he just curls up for a nap until he transforms back. That would be a different reaction than being "less dangerous" with his friends. If he had secretly taken the potion that night, I would think Sirius would notice a difference. Ravenclaw Bookworm...who hasn't forgiven Pippin for her ESE!Lupin theory, but can't come up with a better response than kicking her heels on the floor shouting, No, He can't be! I don't believe it! From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 12 02:10:36 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 02:10:36 -0000 Subject: Snape as a teacher (was Hagrid's name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98109 > > Chris: > >... it is stated over and over that > > Slytherins are discriminated against by teachers, > > students and the general public simply for being > > Slytherin. snip> Siriusly Snapey Susan: >snip> Negative stereotyping certainly goes on; is that what you're thinking of when you say discrimination? Potioncat: I think there may be two similar threads running now. But this one made me think. There is (at least at Hogwarts in Harry's day) a negative stereotype of Slytherins. Imagine, arriving at Hogwarts as an 11 year old put into Slytherin after being told "bad wizards" come out of Slytherin. Add to that you are something of an odd ball and the very thing you're good at--hexes-- gets you a bad reputation. Most of the other students look down on you because of your house, your looks and your abilities. No wonder you become a Death Eater!!!! Potioncat (who thinks the twins' nicknames are Slink and Slyther) From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 12 02:16:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 02:16:40 -0000 Subject: Connection between books 2 and 5 - veil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98110 > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > Absolutely, Inge, that was my reaction, too. The author of the > essay chose to place this quote at the very top -- > > "There's one thing in Chamber, actually, that Jo indicated will play > later in the series." > -- Steve Kloves, Chamber of Secrets DVD Interview > > That's Steve Kloves, the screenwriter for the movie, of course. Potioncat: For all we know, the the one thing he referred to, has already happened in PoA, GoF or OoP. Or it could be as simple as having Sir Nick tip his head to Miss Clearwater who could show up again in Harry Potter and the ____________. And suddenly I had the idea that Book 6 will reveal that Percy got married while estranged from his family. Molly will be in tears! Potioncat From editor at texas.net Wed May 12 02:55:47 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:55:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Q's about house-elves References: <20040511062509.50538.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005b01c437cd$8e0a9ca0$9e58aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98111 Franzi: > 1. In OoP after Dobby warned the DA members that Umbridge is on her way he starts to punish himself. But since he is a freed house-elf there should be no need to do so. Is it just the old habit? (Sounds more like Winky to me.) But he isn't free. He's taken a job at Hogwarts. Even if he's paid, he's bound now, presumably to the "family" (administration) that owns the "house" (Hogwarts). Umbridge is a member of the family--the highest-ranking at the moment--and as such, he is bound to obey her. Even if he's paid, I presume the ground rules would stay the same. ~Oldest!Amanda From ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com Wed May 12 01:40:10 2004 From: ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com (ellendvlmaas) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 01:40:10 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: <40A15A16.6060905@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98112 Geoff Bannister wrote: I presume you mean why did they call Sirius Snuffles? I have always assumed it's because, in his Animagus form, he is a dog. Then Jem wrote: And this dog has allergies/trouble breathing? I'm sorry. I just don't understand the appellation as it might apply to a dog or to Sirius or the dog star. Everything else makes so much sense but this one eludes me. And Jem also wrote: The first definition of snuffle in the Oxford English Dictionary is akin to sniffing in disdain. I think that fits Sirius' personality fairly well. Now Ellen: I looked up "snuffle" in the Merriam-Webster on-line Dictionary. It says in the first definition: 1 : to snuff or sniff usually audibly and repeatedly Looking up "snuff", part of the second definition says: 2 b : b (chiefly Scottish) : HUFF [JK lives in Scotland, right?] I looked up "huff" and it says some very interesting things that describe Sirius pretty well: (intransitive sense) 2 a : to make empty threats : BLUSTER b : to react or behave indignantly (transitive sense) 1 : to puff up : INFLATE 2 archaic : to treat with contempt : BULLY [Think: Kreacher] 3 : to make angry 4 : to utter with indignation or scorn It looks to me like his code name was a clue to what he was to become. Ellen From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed May 12 03:34:14 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 03:34:14 -0000 Subject: The Map, the Twins, the Rat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98113 > bboy_mn: > I have no trouble at all hearing Fred, after pointing his wand at the > Map, saying something like, 'I solumnly swear I am up to no good'. > That seems a perfectly 'Fred' thing to say. You could be right. You've given me an idea. Before, I posted that the map, using whatever "brain" it has, recognised the mischiefmaking abilities of the twins, and showed them what to say. What it could have done, though, is recognise the quality of Fred's sentence more than the words themselves, and activated itself in response. Maybe if Fred had said, "Help me make some mischief!" it may have worked just as well, and shown the map of Hogwarts. Then the twins would always have used *that* phrase, and taught it to Harry. Or, maybe Fred or George had the incredible good luck to stumble upon exactly the right phrase. ;-) On the other hand, now I'm wondering if that "map" could do anything more, if someone stumbled upon another password or phrase. What else could a marauder need? How about current passwords into all the common rooms, the prefects bath, etc.? It'd be cool if MWPP had programmed that ability in, too. The map did show Harry how to get into the secret passage into Honeydukes, but I took that as more of a charm than a password that would be periodically changed. Annemehr From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed May 12 03:50:28 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 03:50:28 -0000 Subject: Will Harry lose his powers? (Was:Book 7 predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98114 Carol, arguing for Harry losing only LV's powers in the end: > >So I don't think Harry would > have been a Squib, though I agree that he would have been > much less powerful--an ordinary wizard kid like Ron--if he hadn't > acquired most of Voldemort's powers at Godric's Hollow.< Pippin: > I think that's too easy. This is supposed to be a sacrifice; Harry's > got to give up something he really wants. > > From what I've read of JKR's interviews, she doesn't like the sort > of series where the hero is the ageless, changeless protagonist > of endless sequels--I don't think she'd leave Harry to such a fate. Annemehr: Are you equating an ending where Harry winds up live and magical with never growing up? So are you saying that Arthur Weasley's forever stuck in adole-- er, wait, bad example. So, are you saying that Siriu-- dang. Are you saying that *Professor McGonagall* is forever stuck in adolescence because her magic is still intact? Annemehr From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 04:20:04 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 04:20:04 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS In-Reply-To: <0E18E6D8-A1BD-11D8-98D7-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98115 HunterGreen wrote: <(I've also always found it odd that Tom Riddle and Hagrid knew each other personally when they were several years apart and presumably in different houses, although Tom could just have seen him as an easy patsy).> Ivogun responded: Because of his size, Hagrid stood out. Even when he was in school. He wasn't the normal type of kid who blended in with the rest. I'm sure there were all sort of whispers and mumbling about his giant blood. Everyone probably knew his name. The pure blood group was probably scandalized. I can see them pointing, laughing, and making snide comments. His love of monsters was probably common knowledge too. It would act as a proof that Hagrid wasn't human. As for Tom Riddle, he was also probably known by just about everyone too. In Dumbledore's words (paraphrased because I'm too lazy to look it up) "he may have been the best student that ever went to Hogwarts." I'm sure all the students knew him as the very intelligent, good looking prefect. I would think that most students would know all the prefects by name. I started attending a K - 12 school in 7th grade. Mostly one would know the students in your class, but certain upper class members (sport stars, prom queens, geniuses, class presidents, musical stars, club presidents etc.) would be known by many other students. I am going beyond the text a little. I'm sure that Riddle had it in for Hagrid just because he's part giant. I'm suspect that Riddle monitored Hagrid's activities, trying to gather evidence against him. Catching Hagrid with Aragog was probably not the first (or even the second or third) encounter between the two. Oh yes, I think they knew each other fairly well. Carol: Except for the part about knowing each other fairly well, I agree with this post. For the reasons mentioned (Hagrid's size and fondness for monsters, Tom's good looks, good grades, and status as prefect) I'm pretty sure that everyone in the school knew both of them by sight and name even if they had no personal acquaintance with them. I think Tom's intention in addressing Hagrid by his first name was to establish his position as Hagrid's superior in age and social status. But Hagrid, who wouldn't understand such subtle snubs, probably took Tom's use of his first name as a friendly gesture and reciprocated by doing the same. That's how I read the scene, anyway. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 04:43:30 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 04:43:30 -0000 Subject: Can a M$^blood even become a pureblood? (From Assumption) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98116 > Susan: > Is it possible for a m$&blood family eventually to become a pureblood > family? Ok, James is from a pureblooded family. Lily comes from a > muggle family, but she's obviously a wizard. They have Harry. Isn't > he (Harry) technically more "pure" than Lily (bloodwise)? So if he > married a pureblood, their child would be even more "pure" wouldn't > he/she? And if that child grows up and marries a pureblood... See > where I'm going? Where does it end? > > My theory: > If you assume that mudblood comes from the idea of the blood being muddied or dirty, then the assumption must also follow that there is no point where the mudblooded becomes pureblooded. If you think back to your science class and the atom cutting example, no matter how many times you half an object, it still exists, though in increasingly negligible amounts. For a more tangible example, assuming that Harry and his descendants only marry purebloods, there may be a point where the WW consider his line a pureblood line, but regardless, there is still a tangible point where his line was not pureblooded, thereby making his blood dirty by the standards of the Malfoys of the world. > > ~Ali Carol; To answer Susan's question first--yes, Harry is technically more pureblooded than Lily. He's a Halfblood (two Muggle grandparents, two wizard grandparents); she's a "Mudblood" (Muggleborn). The marriage of *either* a Muggle *or* a Muggleborn to a Pureblood results in a Halfblood (like Seamus Finnegan on the one hand or Harry on the other), and no one addresses Halfbloods as "Mudbloods"; the stigma seems to be confined to the first generation. (It's rather like a "bastard-born" (illegitimate) child in the nineteenth century or earlier. It that child married respectably, the stigma of illegitimacy was not passed on to his or her children.) If Harry (or Seamus) marries a Pureblood, his children will be "3/4 bloods"--a term JKR doesn't use. In the next generation, if these children marry Purebloods, they'll only be 1/8 Muggle, 7/8 Witch/Wizard--to all intents and purposes Fullbloods, though JKR doesn't use that term, either. I don't know, but I imagine that four generations in which both parents were magical would be sufficient to make a person a "Pureblood" in the eyes of all but the most snobbish witches and wizards. Even those who could trace their Pureblood line back to 382 B.C. probably had Muggle blood from a female line that was not traced back. As I imagine it, the very first witches and wizards (who would have been shamans and priestesses and the like) were Muggle-born and had no choice but to marry Muggles, but the concept of "Muggle"--and the stigma--didn't exist yet, probably not until medieval times. Probably both the Malfoys and the Blacks have Muggle blood somewhere. Those names just don't show up on the charts. Carol From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 04:55:09 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 04:55:09 -0000 Subject: Will Harry lose his powers? (Was:Book 7 predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > Pippin previously : > > I think that's too easy. This is supposed to be a sacrifice; Harry's > > got to give up something he really wants. > > > > From what I've read of JKR's interviews, she doesn't like the sort > > of series where the hero is the ageless, changeless protagonist > > of endless sequels--I don't think she'd leave Harry to such a fate. > > Annemehr: > Are you equating an ending where Harry winds up live and magical with > never growing up? > > So are you saying that Arthur Weasley's forever stuck in adole-- er, > wait, bad example. > > So, are you saying that Siriu-- dang. > > Are you saying that *Professor McGonagall* is forever stuck in > adolescence because her magic is still intact? > > Annemehr Yes, Pippin, I would love clarification on this one too. :o) I don't want Harry to become... I don't know .. Nancy Drew (she seems to be ageless, right?) But I think he can grew out of his adolescence even if JKR leaves him some magical abilities. Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 05:20:11 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 05:20:11 -0000 Subject: James or Lilly killed first? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98118 Carol wrote: As I said in another post, there's another, smaller version of the flint still uncorrected in my Scholastic edition of GoF. When Harry is telling Sirius and Dumbldore about the events in the graveyard, his father is mentioned before his mother. I'd look up the page number, but it's 1:47 in the morning and besides, you have a different edition. > Gregory Lynn (I think--unsigned post) responded: > That's not necessarily a Flint, though. I don't seem to recall > anything in that scene to indicate Harry was necessarily relating > things in the exact order they happened. I'm just going from memory > here, but didn't he pause in the narrative before that happened > (interrupted you might say) and didn't Dumbledore say something along the lines of "You must have seen..." and Harry responds by naming his father then his mother. Just going by memory, so I could be wrong, isn't that how it goes? Carol again: I do think it's a flint, and it isn't prompted by any words from Dumbledore. It's exactly like the version Geoff quoted except that "father" and "mother" are switched. Everyone else comes out of the wand in the right sequence. Here's the passage and page number from the Scholastic edition (July 2000): "He tried to keep talking, but the memories of what had come out of the wand were flooding into his mind. He could see Cedric emerging, see the old man, Bertha Jorkins. . . his father. . . his mother. . ." (p. 696). This order reflects the unrevised scene and apparently was not corrected even though the graveyard scene itself (p.667) was revised to reflect events at Godric's Hollow. Carol, who hopes that when it's time to revise the books, JKR sits down and carefully compares the English and American editions From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed May 12 05:37:18 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 05:37:18 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98119 Kneasy: > But to those who are fully paid up members of the League of > Conspiracy Theorists (Paranoia Chapter) a more entertaining > explanation springs to mind. Annemehr: You're corrupting me, you know that, don't you? Kneasy: > If the Dementors were attracted by the large crowd, why did > they concentrate solely on Harry? Annemehr: Because (IMPersonalO), it was the one from the train which was able to sense Harry as he flew out above the grounds. That one really *likes* Harry. Thinks he's *tasty* -- certainly more so than any other Hogwarts students, none of whom fainted. The other dementors sensed its interest and followed suit. Kneasy: > Again, after they all leave the Shrieking Shack the Dementors > turn up again. [...] Even so it is Harry that > the Dementors concentrate on, ignoring Sirius: > "The Dementors were closing in, barely ten feet from > them. They formed a solid wall around Harry and Hermione, > and were getting closer...." Annemehr: Yep, and that one that tried to kiss Harry -- the train one again. Kneasy: > It also begs the > question - how was it that they didn't have the same effect > on Sirius while he was supposedly escaping from Azkaban? Annemehr: I don't know, but I always supposed that in Azkaban, their influence on Sirius was diluted by the presence of hundreds of other prisoners, whereas by the lake the few people there got a stronger blast. Not that this disproves any of your theory, of course. Kneasy: > I use the word "supposedly" deliberately. > To those of a suspicious nature it all seems a bit too > convenient. Suppose Sirius didn't fool his captors but was > allowed to escape, thus giving Fudge an excuse to send > the Dementors to Hogwarts. Where - surprise, surprise, > they ignore Sirius and concentrate on Harry. > But not by accident. Harry is the priority target. > On the surface PoA is an atypical book. It's the only one > in the series where Harry is not threatened by Voldy or one > of his minions. Or is it? The only difficulty is in deciding who > is the baddy - Sirius or Fudge? Or both? Annemehr: In that case, my money would be on Fudge. I'd guess he's not a DE, but an evil unto himself, but who knows? Was the dementor supposed to do Harry in right on the train? Without Lupin there, it certainly could have. I imagine, if dementors are feeding on the horrible memories they evoke, that they are somewhat telepathic and can hear what their victim hears. That would mean that the dementor could recognise Harry if it had been told his story. Then -- a tragic accident, who could have forseen it? -- Harry's history. This gives Harry a new enemy, the dementor. Even if Fudge (or whoever) sicced it on Harry on the train, it is now after him for unpleasant reasons of its own. It tried again at the Quidditch match and by the lake, and -- who knows? -- maybe it even volunteered for duty at Privet Drive? Annemehr off to sleep on it and think if there's a likely plotline for the ugly, nasty thing From jferer at yahoo.com Wed May 12 05:40:19 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 05:40:19 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98120 Pippin:"Absolutely. Harry should come out of this with his heart's desire. But is that to be a great wizard? I think not. He's tempted by it, just as he's tempted by the thought of being a world class Quidditch player or a Tri-wizard champion. But what he really wants, what he's always wanted, is a family who loves him. "He thinks he can't have that in this world. But he *can*, he just doesn't know it yet. Call me a shipper, call me a hopeless romantic, but when he's given up the wizarding world to save it, and it seems he's lost everything, there'll turn out to be one witch who thinks, like Arthur Weasley, that the Muggle world does not lack for wonder, and besides, any world with Harry in it is magical enough." GMTA. And this could be the rebirth. When I said that Harry could give us his magic, I never thought he'd be thrown on to the Muggle world after that; he would be the living saint of the wizard world. It would fit in very well with the themes of love and Harry's ability that LV knows not. When JKR says that there are Biblical parallels in the story we should apply that with caution, not necessarily looking for the Christ-parallel or trying to figure out who the John the Baptist or Judas figures will be. The idea of self-sacrifice is enough parallel for now, I think. I also wouldn't like the idea of DD as the Christ figure giving Harry back his powers or anything like that, just because it wouldn't work in the sense of the story. There's too many stories out there where someone seems to give up everything, but in the end gets it all back and more! More! If Harry's gonna sacrifice something, it should be a real sacrifice and no after the event give-back. The resolution, the hope, the redemption would be like Pippin's ending above. Jim Ferer From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 05:49:15 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 05:49:15 -0000 Subject: Harry- heir of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > << it's possible that he's an heir of both of them. > ...I'm interested to hear arguments for or against what I've said!>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > As a fanfic writer, I have theorized that Harry is descended from > Salazar through Lily, who is the first witch in a long line of > pureblood Squibs. That would be why her family was so proud to > (finally!) have a witch in the family. > > Canon support? None, just that the issue of "purity of blood" has > been so ingrained in the story that JKR must surely be planning to > turn the issue on its butt. > > --JDR Since Lily is repeatedly called a Muggle-born, it's pretty likely that her parents are actual Muggles, not Squibs. I suppose it's remotely possible that her father is a Squib (since the appearance of Mark Evans suggests that the magic comes from his side of the family), but I think the Squib heritage is farther back. Also, how long does it take to turn a line of Squibs into a Muggle? I think it's only one generation. JKR defines "Squib" as the nonmagical child of *magical* parents, so the child of two Squibs would *not* be a Squib because his or her parents would not be magical. In other words, that child would be a Muggle, the nonmagical child of nonmagical parents. If that's the case, "a long line of pureblood Squibs" is a contradiction in terms. As soon as the first two pureblood Squibs produce that first Muggle child, the line is "muddied." Also Squibs are extremely rare. One marriage between Squibs is theoretically possible, but a long line of Squibs (assuming that they remained Squibs and didn't become Muggles) all finding pureblood Squib partners is extremely unlikely. IMO, there's a Squib on Lily's father's side a few generations back, and the preceding Evans ancestors (say, Lily's great-grandparents and farther back) are mostly witches and wizards who may or may not be pureblood. But I don't think there's a connection with Salazar Slytherin on either side of Harry's family or Tom Riddle would have known about it. And the green eyes, though they will no doubt come into play, don't necessarily suggest a Slytherin blood connection, either. After all, Lily wasn't a Parseltongue, the trait that marks the Heir of Slytherin. That's a trait that Harry acquired from Voldemort, not one that he inherited. If Harry is also an heir of Slytherin, a rival to Voldemort in that respect, it's through that same connection. At least that's how I see it. Carol From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue May 11 08:58:23 2004 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 01:58:23 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will Harry lose his powers? (Was:Book 7 predictions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1742709836.20040511015823@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98122 Monday, May 10, 2004, 7:22:34 PM, pippin_999 wrote: p> From what I've read of JKR's interviews, she doesn't like the sort p> of series where the hero is the ageless, changeless protagonist p> of endless sequels--I don't think she'd leave Harry to such a fate. She must really hate the Oz books then. :) -- Dave (Duly noting that Dorothy has been a pre-teen for 104 years.) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 12 06:09:54 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 06:09:54 -0000 Subject: Connection between books 2 and 5 - veil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98123 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rsteph1981" wrote: > Did we ever come to a consensus on what the important bit from book > 2 was? > > Because I just read this essay (someone at fictionalley posted the > link) and it's interesting. > > If it's already been brought up, I apologize. I did seach the > archive, but I just searched the word "nick". > > Anyway, this essay speculates that the black curtain in the death > day party is the same as the veil in OOTP. > > Here's a link: http://harmony.portkey.org/theories/veilmystery.php > > > > Rebecca bboy_mn: Just my opinion. True, the Black Velvet Curtain at the entry way to Nick's death day party is SYMBOLICALLY the same as the Veiled Archway in the Death Chamber. But are they literally one and the same? I seriously doubt it. I think that breaches in the barrier between this world and the next are extremely few and far between, and I really don't think they are all that portable. I just don't see Sir Nick going into the ghost's party shop and ordering two dozen black candles, one table of rancid rotten food, one veiled gateway to the afterlife, plus a couple dozen party hats just for good measure. Black, as well as curtains and veils, are somewhat universally symbolic of and associated with death. But, beyond that common symbolism, I don't see any connection between the Death Day Party, and the Veiled Archway in the Chamber of Death. Just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 12 06:32:53 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 06:32:53 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: <40A18A5B.4090103@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98124 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: > Silverthorne wrote: > > > True, true...but then again, since it was his own idea in the first > > place to call himself "Snuffles", I suspect that his 'handsome > > rogue-ish looks' had very little influence....lol. > Jem: > > Here's where I disagree. He didn't call himself Snuffles, JKR did. > You name your characters for a reason, because they reflect something > for you. It's a fit somehow. I just can't see into her mind to > understand what she's saying with this. > > Jem. bboy_mn: I think Sirius (or JKR, if you prefer) simple picked a generic doggie sounding name for Harry, Ron, & Hermione to use as an safe alternative when referring to him; a neutral generic name that would raise few suspicions if overheard in a coversation. He/(she) could have just as easily picked 'Blackie', but Blackie is a name that is sometimes used by humans, and sounds too much like 'Black'. So, that's my opinion, Sirius, quickly, of the top of his head, picked a non-descript name that the kids could use when referring to him; no more, no less. Just a thought. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 12 06:45:10 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 06:45:10 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More In-Reply-To: <20040512002601.14958.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me wrote: Mo: > > Lupin is Latin for "Wolf" > Hence, the whole Werewolf thing... Geoff: I hate to be pedantic but I have pointed out before that the Latin word for a wolf is "lupus" from which we get the adjective "lupine" (With an 'e'). Lupin, spelt thus, is a flower from the Latin "lupinus". I (seriously) find it difficult to imagine friend Remus as a werewolf when a blue flower comes into mind whenever I read his name...... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 12 06:46:12 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 06:46:12 -0000 Subject: Q's about house-elves - Honor & Obligation In-Reply-To: <005b01c437cd$8e0a9ca0$9e58aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Franzi: > > > 1. In OoP after Dobby warned the DA members that Umbridge is on > > her way hestarts to punish himself. But since he is a freed house-elf there should be > no need to do so. Is it just the old habit? > Amanda" (Sounds more like Winky to me.) > > But he isn't free. He's taken a job at Hogwarts. Even if he's paid, > he's bound now, presumably to the "family" ... that owns the "house" > .... Umbridge is a member of the family--.... Even if he's paid, I > presume the ground rules would stay the same. > > ~Oldest!Amanda bboy_mn: I beg to differ, Dobby is still a free elf and is not truly bound to Hogwart's school or to Dumbledore, but he does have an elf's historical and genetically ingrained sense of honor, loyalty, and obligation to those he is currently working for. In addition, since Dobby is a free elf, there is nothing to prevent him from also having that same sense of honor, loyalty, and obligation toward Harry; he is free to make that choice. My guess is that his highest chosen loyalties are to Dumbledore personally, then to Harry, and finally to the school for which he works. Umbridge is actively working against both Dumbledore and Harry, and in the view of many, against the school. From those actions, Dobby accesses his priorities, and finds that Umbridge as a representative of the school falls farther down on the list. While Umbridge as a representative of the school is lower on Dobby's list of priorities, she is not off the list entirely, and he does realize he is acting counter to his obligation to the school administration. When Harry tells Dobby not to punish himself, he is, in a sense, absolved of his trangressions by someone to whom he feels the highest or at least a higher obligation. Just a thought. bboy_mn From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Wed May 12 07:14:41 2004 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 08:14:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: This may be an old subject but, Who owns the Riddle House? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A1CEE1.7090204@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98127 Steve wrote: > Here is an interesting thought. It seems reasonably well known that > Tom Marvelo Ridddle (aka: Voldemort) was the Son of Tom Riddle Sr. who > was in turn the son of Marvelo Riddle (Tom Jr's grandfather, Tom Sr's > Father). digger: We don't actually know if Marvolo is his paternal or maternal grandfather, and hence if he was Marvolo Riddle or Marvolo Something-Else. Given the un-muggleness of the name, I incline to the latter. I think Marvolo was the link to the blood-line of Slytherin. > Steve > With their death, that left Tom Jr, the first born son, as > the only heir to the Riddle Estate. Does anyone think that Tom Riddle > ever claimed that estate? > > I speculate that Tom/Voldemort claimed the estate and used the money > he inherited along with the money from the sale of the Riddle house to > finance his travel while he learned the Dark Art. digger: Me too. Murder your paternal grandparents and father and get the inheritance they would have denied you given the chance. That sounds such a good start for an evil-overlord in training ;-) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 12 07:35:15 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 07:35:15 -0000 Subject: Will Harry lose his powers? Slightly Ficcy - The End In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98128 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Carol adds: > > ... So I don't think Harry would have been a Squib, though I agree > > that he would have been much less powerful--an ordinary wizard kid > > like Ron--if he hadn't acquired most of Voldemort's powers at > > Godric's Hollow.<<<<< > Pippin: > > I think that's too easy. This is supposed to be a sacrifice; Harry's > got to give up something he really wants. ...edited... Harry > certainly has his father's athletic talent, but is that magic? > > From what I've read of JKR's interviews, she doesn't like the sort > of series where the hero is the ageless, changeless protagonist > of endless sequels--I don't think she'd leave Harry to such a fate. > > Pippin bboy_mn: Let me propose a compromise scenerio in the form of a very rough Fan Fiction. In the final battle, Harry allows himself to be stripped of his magical powers in order to defeat Voldemort, or alternately, he loses his power without his prior knowledge or consent. The point is he's lost his magical powers. Now time has passed, the end of story heart-to-heart with Dumbledore is over, the train ride home is over. Harry, with Ron and Hermione's help has tried to perform magic to no avail. So, he finally accepts his fate. True, he has no magic, but he still has his loyal friends who will never forget him and will never abondon him. He is still welcomed into the Weasley family like a son. Sometime later Harry is visiting Ron at the Burrow. The whole Weasley family is there, so once again, Fred and George have been moved into Ron's small room, which is now crammed with Ron's bed and three camp cots. Late at night Harry gets an urge and must heed the call of mother nature (and no, it's not something 'Slashy'). He gets up from his bed, and the first step he takes, he stubs his toe on one of the legs of his camp cot. "Ouch, damn!" Harry hops forward on one foot and bangs his shin into the corner of his camp cot, spins around, falls over backwards, and bangs his head on the floor. "Crap!" Ron wakes, confused and groggy. "What...? What happened? Harry are you being attacked?" Harry stuggles to get up and bang his elbow on the corner of Fred's camp cot. "Ouch! Son of a .... LUMOS!" Harry shouts, mostly out of frustration and habit. And to everyone's surprise, every wand tip in the room ignites. "Damn, I cut my leg," Harry curses. George bends over to have a closer look. "Ooooo.... Harry, that's going to leave a scar." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - See how cleverly I ended it with the word 'scar'? Harry has lost his magic power, his skill, his technique, but a truly magical person like Harry can never lose the core essense that made him as great as he is. In essense, Harry is a magical person even without the power of magic. So, we are left with a Harry that is extremely magically marginal, just short of a Squib. With time, and healing, and practice, Harry is able to do very elementary magic. He is magical enough to still be able to see the entrance to the Leaky Cauldron, so he can enter the magic world to see his friends. He can't curse any Dark Wizards, but he can heat a cup of tea with a tap from his wand. And, this is a good thing, because Harry will never be powerful enough that the wizard world will again be tempted to call on him for help, and that suits him just fine. He's certainly had more than enough Dark Wizard fighting to last anyone a lifetime. Some may say that this is a pretty weak ending, but is it really such a bad thing for Harry to still have access to 'his' world, to have access to all his old friends, to still be able to engage in basic magic but to never again have to carry the weight or the fate of the world on his shoulders. Harry makes the ultimate sacrifice, and from that sacrifice comes redemption. The best of all worlds. bboy_mn From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed May 12 07:48:21 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 07:48:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More In-Reply-To: <20040512002601.14958.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98129 khilari wrote : > > > Also Lupin sounds like a name and Black doesn't. I, Del, wondered : > > How so ? Mo answered : > Lupin is Latin for "Wolf" > Hence, the whole Werewolf thing... And Del replies : Sorry Mo, but that doesn't help :-) To me, Lupin does NOT sound like a proper last name, *precisely* because it's so obviously some kind of clue. I mean, how many people do you know that are called Lupin ? The probable answer is zero. "Black", on the other hand, is a not uncommon name. "Sirius" is highly uncommon all right, but "Black" isn't. So to me, Black sounds like a real name, and Lupin doesn't. While on the other hand, Remus sounds like a real first name, and Sirius only reminds me of the star. By the way, wolf in French is "loup". And still I completely missed the clue when I first read PoA :-) Del From albus696 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 04:46:36 2004 From: albus696 at yahoo.com (Albus Dell) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How DD knew Message-ID: <20040512044636.63042.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98130 Pippin: There may well have been portraits there . But assuming that the rebounded AK destroyed the house and any portraits in it, no portrait could have told Dumbledore that Harry was still alive. My answer (albus696): How about a portrait telling Dumbledore that LV is at the Potters' house, and Dumbledore sending Hagrid over with an owl. As soon as Hagrid showed up, he sent Dumbledore a letter saying that only Harry suyrvived. He got his instructions to bring Harry to the Dursleys, and then Sirius showed up. albus696 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 12 10:21:15 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 10:21:15 -0000 Subject: Snuffles' name/ Hufflepuff - a thought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98131 Geoff: I thought I would emerge with a bucket of cold water to throw over the smouldering embers of the overheated thoughts about Snuffles. I think that sometimes, we are still looking for deep meanings in some parts of Harry Potter where there are none. bboy_mn, in message 96597 quoted Freud "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".... If we look at ourselves as we are in the Real World, we can find ourselves to be quite a complex mixture. We may be working very openly with colleagues or friends or we may have covert agendas of our own. We may be concocting detailed plans or we may be just doing something simple. I, at the moment am sitting in front of my computer with my mid-morning hot chocolate and choccy bar, just putting together thoughts to post into the group. If there was such a thing as an ESE-meter, it would perhaps have a range from 0 (perfectly good) to 100 (totally evil). No one would register 0; Voldemort would be well up towards the 100 as would one or two others such as, perhaps, Peter Pettigrew. Hopefully, most of us would register fairly low readings. What has this to do with Snuffles? Well, lots of suggestions have been put forward about this nickname. I am postulating that perhaps, it was just a nickname without any undertones. For my reasoning, who did he reveal it to? `"No one's tried to attack me so far, except a dragon and a couple of Grindylows," Harry said. But Sirius scowled at him. "I don't care I'll breathe freely again when this Tournament's over and that's not until June. And don't forget, if you're talking about me among yourselves, call me Snuffles, OK?"' (GOF "Padfoot returns" p.463 UK edition) Sirius makes his remark to Harry, Hermione and Ron. I cannot see any reason for him to have a hidden agenda here so I take the nickname at face value. Also, having two dogs, I immediately accepted the nickname as perfectly suitable for someone transformed into a dog. That's my non-conspiracy theory for today. A completely separate thought arose from a point made by Ellen in message 98112 and the word Huff. The definition about "blustering" reminded me of the UK expression about someone "huffing and puffing" about an occurrence which then made me think about Hufflepuff. Should we anticipate that members of Hufflepuff are the sort of people who fuss and bluster about things and get hot under the collar when everything isn't spot on? Fudge drops nicely into this category; did he attend Hogwarts and was he in Hufflepuff? Ernie Macmillan, certainly, seems to exude a slight air of pompousness ? I get the feel, nice guy but a bit full of his own importance. Or am I just playing with another cigar? :-) From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed May 12 10:33:56 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 10:33:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (More names..., Severus Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98132 > > Geoff: > I hate to be pedantic but I have pointed out before that the Latin > word for a wolf is "lupus" from which we get the adjective "lupine" > (With an 'e'). > > Lupin, spelt thus, is a flower from the Latin "lupinus". I > (seriously) find it difficult to imagine friend Remus as a werewolf > when a blue flower comes into mind whenever I read his name...... Finwitch: The 'wolf'-clue, I'd say, is REMUS. I suppose you've heard of the sons of Mars (and um.. I forget the name of their mother), Romulus and Remus, raised by a female wolf - of whom Romulus was the traditional founder of the city of Rome. I think Lupin is more of his nature as a human. ---- Sirius, then - the Dog Star, main member of a pattern known as Big Dog, the brightest star of the sky... suits him perfectly. Big Dog, which is his animagus form, and in the 4th book, the hope of talking to Sirius was the *only* bright spot for Harry... (even though Hermione was there, too, as well as many others...) And, Black. It refers to the color of his hair, (and that of the dog) - and serves to create this illusion of 'black soul' - which, however, is reserved for the rest of the 'noble house of Black', not Sirius. (although, Regulus did repent, and Uncle Algie helped Sirius leave). And er.. both have strong loyalty and need to care for Harry... because that's the way of both wolves and dogs! --- What say you, does not Sprout suit for a *herbology* professor? not 'Moody' for Alastor Moody's personality and reputation? Or, Severus: a latinism of severe? (suits him, doesn't it?) AND Snape (take of the 'e' and you get snap, and he DOES keep snapping at people), and change the 'p' for 'k' - and it's a snake (suits his position in Slytherin house AND occupation of dealing with potions...). Also, few speculation about SS: - He's addicted to Dark Arts, which is why AD refuses to give him the post as DADA teacher, for doing so would be equal to having an alcoholic to run a bar... (and, with Dark Arts, the consequences of a fail would be much more severe than alcohol). - Dumbledore trusts him, Harry doesn't. SS seems to be trustworthy to the Order, but he seems to be trustworthy to DEs, too! And mind you, just because Dumbledore trusts him, does not mean that anyone else should. He's not all-knowing. (or Wormtail would have been known to be the spy long before he could betray the Potters!) -- Finwitch From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed May 12 11:12:57 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:12:57 -0000 Subject: Connection between books 2 and 5 - veil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98133 Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: That's Steve Kloves, the screenwriter for the movie, of course. To then go on & propose this theory that the deathday party's drapes are the same as the veil from the DoM doesn't quite make sense, because the whole POINT of Kloves' comment was that he sometimes has to leave things *IN* the screenplay because JKR knows they're important. Yet Nick's deathday party *ISN'T* in the movie. On the other hand, the similarities the author notes are quite interesting.... vmonte responds: I agree with you Susan. I always felt that it was the scene after the trio take the polyjuice potion, where Ron and Harry (as Crabb and Goyle) bump into Percy. I remember it because I was so annoyed that Kloves gave away so much of Neville's dialog in the movie, yet he kept Percy in a scene that would have worked without him. Why was Percy down near the Slytherin dorms? By the way, in the book, he also knew that Ron was hanging out in the girls bathroom (Moaning Myrtle's place). From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 12 11:18:31 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:18:31 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (More names..., Severus Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98134 Finwitch wrote: > > Or, Severus: a latinism of severe? (suits him, doesn't it?) snip> > > - Dumbledore trusts him, Harry doesn't. SS seems to be trustworthy to > the Order, but he seems to be trustworthy to DEs, too! And mind you, > just because Dumbledore trusts him, does not mean that anyone else > should. He's not all-knowing. (or Wormtail would have been known to > be the spy long before he could betray the Potters!) Potioncat: I find it interesting that Severus and Lucius are named after the same person: Lucius Septimius Severus, a Roman Emperor who died in York. Here's an interesting quote about him: He ruled with vigor and, when he found it useful, a calculated cruelty. Caracalla succeeded him. See study by A. R. Birley (1971). The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright ? 2003 Columbia University Press. Potioncat From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed May 12 11:36:50 2004 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:36:50 -0000 Subject: Lupin's name (was: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98135 > Mo: > > > > Lupin is Latin for "Wolf" > > Hence, the whole Werewolf thing... > > Geoff: > I hate to be pedantic but I have pointed out before that the Latin > word for a wolf is "lupus" from which we get the adjective "lupine" > (With an 'e'). > > Lupin, spelt thus, is a flower from the Latin "lupinus". I > (seriously) find it difficult to imagine friend Remus as a werewolf > when a blue flower comes into mind whenever I read his name...... Eloise: Ah. Yes... But.... *Why* was a lupin called a lupinus in the first place? According to Lewis and Short, the word lupinus has two meanings. As an adjective, it means 'of or belonging to a wolf' (so perhaps more correctly from *this* we get our adjective, lupine), as a noun it means a lupin (or lupine, as they spell it). According to a little book I possess (100 Flowers and How They Got Their Names, by Diana Wells), "Like wolves, lupines, from the Latin *lupinus*, were supposed to ravage the land and destroy it." So the wolf connection is there anyway. But there's more. Lewis and Short mention that lupins (presumably the seeds)were used as stage money in the classical theatre. I went in pursuit of this and found a very interesting site which discussed lupin(e)s and Cynic philosophy, http://web.lemoyne.edu/~mcmahon/sat14parody.html (isn't the web wonderful?) I have no idea at all whether JKR was aware of this but lupins, it seems, are actually edible (they're legumes) and were particularly associated with the diets of the poverty stricken and of the Cynics who deliberately embraced poverty. Lupin is certainly the most poverty stricken character we see in the books and at the end of PoA could be argued to be going back into a self imposed poverty, having realised the dangers to others of his staying at Hogwarts. As a final irrelvant note, lupin seeds are bitter and need to be soaked before cooking to remove this unfortunate feature. The Stoic philospher, Zeno, compared himself to the lupin, because when well soaked (with wine) he too, became less bitter. ~Eloise making a mental note to try Stoicism later in the day From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 12 11:51:12 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:51:12 -0000 Subject: Lupin's name (was: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98136 Eloise wrote: > > As a final irrelvant note, lupin seeds are bitter and need to be > soaked before cooking to remove this unfortunate feature. The Stoic > philospher, Zeno, compared himself to the lupin, because when well > soaked (with wine) he too, became less bitter. Potioncat: Oh! Great post! I snipped all but the part I wanted to comment on, but I enjoyed it all. Lupin seeds are bitter, I wonder if they are part of wolfsbane potion? Remus complained that it was bitter. Potioncat From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed May 12 12:54:37 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 12:54:37 -0000 Subject: Will Harry lose his powers? Slightly Ficcy - The End In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98137 Cutting and pasting from two different posts: Pippin: > Call me a shipper, call me a hopeless > romantic, but when he's given up the wizarding world to save it, > and it seems he's lost everything, there'll turn out to be one > witch who thinks, like Arthur Weasley, that the Muggle world does > not lack for wonder, and besides, any world with Harry in it is > magical enough. > bboy_mn: > > Let me propose a compromise scenerio in the form of a very rough Fan > Fiction. > > In the final battle, Harry allows himself to be stripped of his > magical powers in order to defeat Voldemort, or alternately, he loses > his power without his prior knowledge or consent. The point is he's > lost his magical powers. > Sometime later Harry is visiting Ron at the Burrow. > "Ouch! Son of a .... LUMOS!" Harry shouts, mostly out of frustration > and habit. And to everyone's surprise, every wand tip in the room ignites. > Harry has lost his magic power, his skill, his technique, but a truly > magical person like Harry can never lose the core essense that made > him as great as he is. [...] With time, and healing, and practice, Harry is > able to do very elementary magic. [...] And, this is a good > thing, because Harry will never be powerful enough that the wizard > world will again be tempted to call on him for help, and that suits > him just fine. He's certainly had more than enough Dark Wizard > fighting to last anyone a lifetime. Annemehr: Pippin has been right all along, I'll concede, in that losing or giving up his magic is probably the greatest sacrifice Harry could make, and fair game for JKR. In fact, Pippin, you've convinced me that it could be a good, strong ending, though for me quite painful. On the other hand, I'll probably always disagree with Pippin that he needs to give his powers up so that he avoids the fate of Peter Pan. This is because, if magic was the product of a childish imagination which Harry must leave behind in his maturity, it makes the ending of the story too much like some other endings I'd be disappointed in: the ones where it was only the dream of an abused child in a cupboard, or his schizophrenic coping mechanism. In other words, if Harry has to leave the WW to grow up and enter the RW, it means that the WW was never real, and neither was anything he did there or anyone he met. If Harry does lose his powers and has to leave the WW, then the WW should still be something "there" that he doesn't have. To my taste, that scenario was just too bleak, like a lifelong torture Harry doesn't deserve. But now, Pippin and bboy_mn are proposing loopholes! The sacrifice is mitigated somewhat, perhaps beyond Harry's expectations at the time he defeats Voldemort. I'm not sure what my point is going to be here, other than to notice what a difference that would make. If Harry marries a witch, he still has indirect access to magic: he can still enter the WW fairly easily and visit, and there will be magic in his home, because there is never any suggestion that a magic person who marries a muggle loses powers (though I can't remember any proof either way). Bboy_mn would leave Harry a little magic of his own, which is reminiscent of the "Losing LV's powers and becoming Just!Harry" scenario, only it goes even further. Incidentally, I really liked the wand-lighting imagery! Annemehr done now, but still not sure she made a point From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed May 12 13:03:27 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 13:03:27 -0000 Subject: Q's about house-elves In-Reply-To: <005b01c437cd$8e0a9ca0$9e58aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98138 Franzi: > > > 1. In OoP after Dobby warned the DA members that Umbridge is on her way he > starts to punish himself. But since he is a freed house-elf there should be > no need to do so. Is it just the old habit? (Sounds more like Winky to me.) Amanda: > > But he isn't free. He's taken a job at Hogwarts. Even if he's paid, he's > bound now, presumably to the "family" (administration) that owns the "house" > (Hogwarts). Umbridge is a member of the family--the highest- ranking at the > moment--and as such, he is bound to obey her. Even if he's paid, I presume > the ground rules would stay the same. > > ~Oldest!Amanda Alas, in this case, extreme age does not appear to confer infallibility. It is clear from GOF that Dumbledore has not taken Dobby on the same terms as other House-Elves. He is an employee, not a slave (in COS Dobby refers to the general condition of House-Elves as enslavement). We can't deduce anything about the other terms of his contract (I don't mean there's a written contract, just that his agreement with Hogwarts is de novo) from the terms of normal House- Elf enslavement. We know that Dobby and Dumbledore discussed terms, not only of remuneration, but of employment, because Dumbledore told Dobby he can call him a barmy old codger - something that would cause self-punishment under the existing system. So why does Dobby try to punish himself? The obvious explanation, as Franzi says, is that old habits, particularly habits of thought, die hard. We don't need to suppose that Dobby is magically compelled (as it seems House-Elves usually are) to punish himself, for it to be credible that he does. David From LWalshETAL at aol.com Wed May 12 14:25:34 2004 From: LWalshETAL at aol.com (LWalshETAL at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 10:25:34 EDT Subject: More Names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98139 > From: "potioncat" > Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) > Potioncat: > Snuffles fits as the sound a dog makes.? It also sounds like the > slang for death: snuffed.? Was it foreshadowing? > Then we have Severus Snape - Sever Us Is that foreshadowing? or current? Then there is Luna Lovegood - Is that foreshadowing? I am not terribly fond of Luna (I guess I have too much of Hermione's outlook in me), but it certainly looks like JKR might be telling us something with that name. And then there is a part of me that wonders about Neville Longbottom. I will leave out the long bottom part, but what about the "evil" inside of Neville? Or would it be better split as N-evil, as in never-evil? Could JKR be setting us up for one big pun at the end? Laura Walsh LWalshETAL at aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed May 12 14:36:45 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:36:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Connection between books 2 and 5 - veil? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98140 Rebecca: Did we ever come to a consensus on what the important bit from book 2 was? Because I just read this essay (someone at fictionalley posted the link) and it's interesting. If it's already been brought up, I apologize. I did seach the archive, but I just searched the word "nick". Anyway, this essay speculates that the black curtain in the death day party is the same as the veil in OOTP. Here's a link: http://harmony.portkey.org/theories/veilmystery.php Rebecca (snip) Gina replies: Fascinating! My theory after reading this is not that the invitation by Nick is important but rather the DATE! On Oct.31st (Nick's death date) the area of Limbo was thinner so he had little time to think and he had already died! When H/R/H came to the party it was Oct. 31st so it was colder because it was thinner. When Sirius went through he was NOT dead and though he was not invited it was mid summer meaning the area of limbo was larger and not so thin. It was not as cold in OOTP. I say Sirius went through alive and thus did not have to decide whether to live or die. He was alive just as R/H/H were alive. But maybe being uninvited made it more difficult to leave or maybe he found someone he needed to speak to first. He could have been forced to transform into Snuffles in order to leave. I offer this as well just an idea - What if it is not the same veil? Maybe the one in the MoM you can not get out, but the veil at Hogwarts is a way back in? That would explain the large number of ghosts there. Are there that many ghosts at any other single magical location? If it is the same veil - I could see DD getting it there for the DD party, but I would come closer to thinking it was a different one. I think anyone could walk in/out of the veil if 1)they entered alive 2)they wanted to leave (live) Gina - who believes fully that Sirius will return in the flesh! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed May 12 11:40:15 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:40:15 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape [was: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98141 > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > As much as I despise Snape's methods with Harry and, esp., Neville, > I think DD is right to call Harry on this disrespectfulness. It > can't do anything to help improve his situation with Snape--er, with > Professor Snape. > Finwitch: Nah - respect must be *earned*. While I do see that Severus Snape has earned Dumbledore's respect (for things Harry does not know about and no one bothers to tell him) he has NOT earned Harry's. What we see trough Harry's eyes, SS behaves like an insecure, angry *teenager* whenever Harry's there and Dumbledore not, in situations where he's supposed to be an adult, no less. Hardly respectable. In my view, it's a very bad manners upon meeting an orphan to speak ill of his dead parent (particularly as that parent ALSO happened to save your own life). And the way he torments Neville, seeks revenge when Neville's boggart takes the form of him...! Further, in my experience an adult insisting on kids to 'show proper respect to him/herself', is one who is not worthy of that respect - and no adult who *is* worthy never has the need to insist on such thing. For the last, insistence on honorifics is one part of English language I don't understand at all, and none has yet managed to explain it to me. Finwitch From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 14:40:32 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 07:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Will Harry lose his powers? Slightly Ficcy - The End In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040512144032.38335.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98142 Steve: "Ouch! Son of a .... LUMOS!" Harry shouts, mostly out of frustration and habit. And to everyone's surprise, every wand tip in the room ignites. "Damn, I cut my leg," Harry curses. George bends over to have a closer look. "Ooooo.... Harry, that's going to leave a scar." animallover_11: I would say that this is an interesting ending. I could not help but notice that the scar would be on Harry's leg. Any chance that this scar would be the shape of the London underground? If so I would say that the "lumos" is the start of someone becoming the great wizard of all time. animallover_11 From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 12 15:14:56 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:14:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (More names..., Severus Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98143 Finwitch wrote: << Or, Severus: a latinism of severe? (suits him, doesn't it?)>> Potioncat wrote: << I find it interesting that Severus and Lucius are named after the same person: Lucius Septimius Severus, a Roman Emperor who died in York. Here's an interesting quote about him: He ruled with vigor and, when he found it useful, a calculated cruelty. Caracalla succeeded him. See study by A. R. Birley (1971). The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright ? 2003 Columbia University Press.>> Sigune (who can't resist showing off her digging into the name of Severus): There were in fact several emperors who had 'Severus' in their names - there was one called 'Alexander Severus' (222-235 AD), one 'Flavius Valerius Severus' (306-307 AD) and even one 'Libius Severus' (461-465 AD, Western Empire) whose nickname was *Serpentius*! Personally I can't choose between the emperor who combines both Lucius and Severus in his name, and the one who connects Severus with snakes :). Yours severely, Sigune ~ who is most annoyed by the fact that in the films people insist on calling poor Snape 'Sever-us rather than Se'vere-us - why doesn't he protest?? :) From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed May 12 15:22:24 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:22:24 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98144 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > Nah - respect must be *earned*. While I do see that Severus Snape has > earned Dumbledore's respect (for things Harry does not know about and > no one bothers to tell him) he has NOT earned Harry's. > I disagree. Among equals, respect is earned, but not in a hierarchical situation, such as a school. It's the same as being in the army. A person can privately think whatever they want about their superior, but the superior rank automatically entitles one to outwardly respectful behaviour. Harry and Snape aren't equals - Harry is a child and a student. The whole point of being at Hogwarts is to acquire what the teachers already have; it isn't just a holding tank for kids to kick their heels for a few years. Snape's only job is to put knowledge into empty heads. I notice that Hogwarts isn't one of those schools where students are allowed to grade their teachers, so Harry's opinion of Snape is irrelevant. When he knows as much as Snape does, he will be his equal and can decide whether or not respect is due to him. Wanda From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed May 12 15:52:30 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:52:30 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98145 "finwitch" wrote: Nah - respect must be *earned*. While I do see that Severus Snape has earned Dumbledore's respect (for things Harry does not know about and no one bothers to tell him) he has NOT earned Harry's. "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: I disagree. Among equals, respect is earned, but not in a hierarchical situation, such as a school. It's the same as being in the army. A person can privately think whatever they want about their superior, but the superior rank automatically entitles one to outwardly respectful behaviour. Harry and Snape aren't equals - Harry is a child and a student. {snipped} ------------------------------- Arya now: I agree with both above comments to a point, however, as to what Wanda writes, I don't think it's that simple. Sure, when starting out and all things being uneven and without bias, a person with the title "professor" will indeed be automatically granted more respect than say a peer of your own student rank. HOWEVER...Snape started making an impression upon Harry which has consistantly eroded the any respect Harry may have granted him on the basis of simply being his 'professor'. While actions/words/impressions are all valid reasons for one to earn respect, they are also valid reasons for one to LOSE respect. Snape has done more than enough over the years (his few good actions and vouching from CC barely puts old Severus up on even ground IMO) for Harry to withdraw his respect. Arya From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 12 15:53:43 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:53:43 -0000 Subject: Will Harry lose his powers? (Was:Book 7 predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98146 Lots of interesting comments on this thread. I apologize for taking them out of order. Pippin previously: > From what I've read of JKR's interviews, she doesn't like the sort of series where the hero is the ageless, changeless protagonist of endless sequels--I don't think she'd leave Harry to such a fate. > Dave: > She must really hate the Oz books then. :)< Pippin: I love Oz too. But *somebody* usually grows up in the course of an Oz book. Dorothy, though never adolescent herself, is the cause of adolescence in others. Annemehr: >>Are you equating an ending where Harry winds up live and magical withnever growing up? Are you saying that *Professor McGonagall* is forever stuck in adolescence because her magic is still intact?<< Pippin: It's not that Harry has to grow up, but that we do. The wizarding world will go on, but without Harry--and without us.The magical world has to be separate because, as Hagrid pointed out way back in Book One, we shouldn't expect magical solutions to our problems. McGonagall is a grown up. But as umpteen feminist critics have pointed out, she's not exactly larger-than-life and she's happy to be that way. I think that's JKR's point. The truly grown-up are no longer in thrall to their adolescent fantasies of being great and powerful. Jim: >>GMTA. And this could be the rebirth. When I said that Harry couldgive us his magic, I never thought he'd be thrown on to the Muggle world after that; he would be the living saint of the wizard world. It would fit in very well with the themes of love and Harry's ability that LV knows not.<< Pippin: Being famous for something you can't do anymore (think Bagman) seems to me almost as pathetic as being famous for something you can't remember. You might as well be a ghost. I don't think Harry would care for it. My personal ficcy expansion on the ending has the wizarding world believing that Harry died to save them and that broken-hearted Ginny is travelling in India, because otherwise the surviving Death Eaters might find them and by some Dark Magic use them to resurrect their master. But that's just me. Pippin wondering what GMTA is From probono at rapidnet.com Wed May 12 16:52:55 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:52:55 -0000 Subject: My past, present, and future Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98147 As I was going through the books recently looking for whom, other than Snape and some other DEs, might call Voldemort "Dark Lord", I found this interesting quote from Tom Riddle in CoS: "Voldemort," said Riddle softly, "is my past, present, and future, Harry Potter . . . ." Very curious, as Ollivander might say. Why would Tom Riddle refer to Voldemort as his "past"? With all the recent discussion about who might have mentored Tom Riddle in the Dark Arts, I thought I'd throw this out and see what you all make of it. At the moment, I have no theories myself. -Tanya P.S. Dobby calls Voldy the Dark Lord. Interesting...but maybe it's just conditioning from living with a family of Death Eaters. From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 12 16:58:45 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:58:45 -0000 Subject: Back to Snuffles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98148 Sorry, but even after all the discussion, I still can't see why JKR (or Sirius) should have chosen that particular name. They are both English (as I am) and I think to most English people, the verb "to snuffle" suggests someone speaking through a heavy cold, or in the aftermath of a prolonged fit of crying. It has a rather Uriah Heepish feel about it. I would have expected something a bit more elegant for Sirius, even at his most run-down. Sylvia (who, like Jen, is still puzzled) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed May 12 17:12:28 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 17:12:28 -0000 Subject: Back to Snuffles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98149 ladyramkin2000 (Sylvia) wrote: > Sorry, but even after all the discussion, I still can't see why JKR > (or Sirius) should have chosen that particular name. They are both > English (as I am) and I think to most English people, the verb "to > snuffle" suggests someone speaking through a heavy cold, or in the > aftermath of a prolonged fit of crying. It has a rather Uriah > Heepish feel about it. I would have expected something a bit more > elegant for Sirius, even at his most run-down. > > Sylvia (who, like Jen, is still puzzled) Siriusly Snapey Susan: I've stayed out of this one so far because it's not something that upsets me or anything, but I do have one thing to add. When I first read the line where Sirius says to call him "Snuffles", I did snort out loud. The reason, though, was that I am very fond of a line of stuffed bears put out by the company Gund which are called "Snuffles". My family owns a couple of Snuffleses and several Snuffs [the mini-version]. This link *should* take you to a photo of several of these guys: http://www.gund.com/where.html Anyway, Snuffles conjured up an image of a soft, cuddly teddy bear, not a huge, shaggy black dog that could be mistaken for a Grim. So it struck me as wacky for a nickname for Sirius, too, but for a much more specific reason than most who've expressed displeasure. Siriusly Snapey Susan From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 12 17:22:02 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 17:22:02 -0000 Subject: Keeper of the Keys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98150 If I could revert to my original post about Hagrid representing St. Peter, I feel that Hagrid has some of the characteristics of the saint, particularly in his tendency to rush in where angels fear to tread (What am I doing walking on water!) I don't think for a moment that Hagrid would willingly betray Harry, but he could, in his essential simplicity, be tricked into it. I do hope not, because his despair would be terrible. I think the parrallel between Snape and St. Paul is a particularly accurate one. Nothing like a reformed sinner! Sylvia (who did realise that Peter denied Christ, but thought betrayed sounded better) From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed May 12 17:39:28 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 18:39:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can a M$^blood even become a pureblood? References: <1084341069.77521.9768.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004601c43848$1347f460$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 98151 Carol wrote: > If Harry (or Seamus) marries a Pureblood, his children will be "3/4 > bloods"--a term JKR doesn't use. In the next generation, if these > children marry Purebloods, they'll only be 1/8 Muggle, 7/8 > Witch/Wizard--to all intents and purposes Fullbloods, though JKR > doesn't use that term, either. I don't know, but I imagine that four > generations in which both parents were magical would be sufficient to > make a person a "Pureblood" in the eyes of all but the most snobbish > witches and wizards. Even those who could trace their Pureblood line I wonder whether purebloodedness isn't the preserve of the snobbish, though. Let's suppose that someone like Hermione decides that she _really_ wants her descendents to be considered purebloods, no matter how long it takes. So she gets a blank tapestry. Now she's got to find someone to marry who's himself an attested pureblood. But, if someone with that status will marry "beneath himself", would he still keep his own status or be burned off his own family tapestry? And then in the second generation, it happens again, and again, and again, for as many generations as it takes for the House of Grainger-Malfoy not to be considered to be halfblood parvenus and upstarts. And I'm sure that even _then_, there will still be the genealogically minded who would say "Muggles stand at the head of the House of Grainger". Probably much better to let the whole lot of them die out! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed May 12 17:57:40 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 18:57:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as a teacher References: <1084300314.10979.56737.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005901c4384a$9ebc6a60$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 98152 Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: > I'm just curious if you could expand on this more, because widespread > *discrimination* against the Slyths by teachers, students & the > general public is not something I recall [and I'm not saying it Interesting comment about the general public, especially the ones that we've had sight of. Because of the books' settings, a lot of the people from outside Hogwarts that we see are Ministry wizards (and we see a little of the internal workings of the Ministry via Arthur and Percy). But there's never any mention of what House they were in at school. I find that a bit surprising, though it may just be because we're seeing things through Harry's eyes rather than what goes on when he's not around. Because of the entry requirements to the Ministry, even to what appears to be its most junior grades, then they must do most of their recruiting from Hogwarts graduates. Because of the size of the Ministry (think about the depictions of them all arriving for work in OoP), the Ministry most probably takes _most_ of the Hogwarts graduates each year, into its various departments. So the bulk of the Hogwarts students go straight from school to an environment where they are working with many former classmates. While they've been in school, they've been in an environment where the first loyalty is to their House, with the regular and engrained competition for the House Cup, the Quidditch Cup, and for the esteem of the Head of House. So shouldn't that automatically carry forward to the Ministry? It seems likely to me that a lot of the internal power politics within the MoM are tied up with House loyalties from their schooldays: if your head of Department was in the same House, you get a better chance of promotion, if not, you don't. Without knowing whether there's any connection between particular Houses and jobs in the Ministry generally, it's hard to speculate about how Slytherins would stand, but it seems to me that they'd have a good chance of prospering in that rather poisonous environment... But JKR alone knows all Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 12 18:09:13 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 18:09:13 -0000 Subject: My past, present, and future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98153 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "probonoprobono" wrote: > ... quote from Tom Riddle in CoS: > > "Voldemort," said Riddle softly, "is my past, present, and future, > Harry Potter . . . ." > > .... Why would Tom Riddle refer to Voldemort as his "past"? With all > the recent discussion about who might have mentored Tom Riddle in the > Dark Arts, I thought I'd throw this out and see what you all make of > it. At the moment, I have no theories myself. > > -Tanya bboy_mn: That thought passed through my mind too, but I wrote it off as, not Tom Riddle speaking, but Diary!Tom Riddle. Diary!Tom Riddle seems well aware that he is not the original but a product of the diary, a diary that is nearly 50 years old. So from the perspectve of that diary, Diary!Tom can accurately say, that Voldemort is his 'Past, Present, and Future'. Just a thought. bboy_mn From hannah at readysolve.com Wed May 12 18:41:22 2004 From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 18:41:22 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98154 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Steve (bboy_mn) asked : > > > Of topic thoughts on names - How many people call Sirius Black by > > > 'Sirius', and how many people call Remus Lupin by 'Lupin'. I > > > think quite a few; most probably, a majority. Any thoughts as to > > > why we are familiar and friendly enough with Sirius to call him > > > by his first name, yet, despite his warm friendly demeanor, we > > > are more inclined to refer to Lupin by his last name? > > And Khilari answered : > > I think it's because we are introduced to Lupin as a teacher > > first, so Harry becomes used to using his surname. All the > > students refer to professors by surname and outside lessons they > > don't add professor. > > Del replies : > But Sirius Black is first introduced to us as a mad mass murderer, > and for a whole year,he is referred to as either "Sirius Black" or > just "Black", and pretty much never as "Sirius". It's only when > Harry becomes friendly with Sirius that he starts calling him by his > first name only. On the other hand, no matter how friendly Remus > Lupin is toward Harry, Harry never sees much more than a teacher in > him, and thus continues calling him by his last name. I think it's > just a matter of Harry's personal preferences being reflected in the > way he calls people. > > By the way, I've always found it weird and disturbing, the way Harry > focused all his attention on Sirius, and completely dismissed Remus. > In Harry's eyes, Sirius was his father's only friend and Remus > pretty much wasn't anything, even though he was most probably his > father's second-best friend ! It's a bit like saying that Harry has > ever only had one friend, Ron, and dismissing completely Hermione. > > khilari also wrote : > > Also Lupin sounds like a name and Black doesn't. > > Del is puzzled : > How so ? > > Del But Sirius is only talked about occasionally during that year, whereas talking about Lupin would have been a daily occurance, if only to say "have you done that homework for Lupin yet". I agree it has to do with how Harry sees them, maybe having reffered to Black as a mass murderer he would not have felt comfortable using the term once he knew Sirius better. I do think it is partly just that Harry got into the habit of saying Lupin, not Remus, and simply hasn't changed. Perhaps the perception that Lupin sounds like a name and Black doesn't is just me. I can imagine calling someone Lupin, but can't imagine calling someone Black. I guess I should have made it clear that was an opinion instead of writing it as if it was a fact. I apologise. Khilari. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed May 12 18:58:02 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 18:58:02 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape's repect. [was: Sirius and Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98155 > Finwitch wrote: > Nah - respect must be *earned*. While I do see that Severus Snape has earned >Dumbledore's respect (for things Harry does not know about and no one bothers to tell >him) he has NOT earned Harry's. Mandy Here: Respect needs to be earned in the adult world. But we're dealing with English Boarding Schools here, and respect is absolutely, unquestionable demanded from the pupil by the professors whether they deserve it or not. It's not unlike the army, respect is drilled into trainee solders to create a culture of unquestionable loyalty to one `superiors.' Children do as they are told no matter what. Old fashioned I know, but the WW seems to exist more in the past somehow. Certainly not in the same 21st century that the muggle world lives in. In the past British boarding schools, upper-class boys boarding schools, where designed to train boys to go straight into officer positions in the British Army/Navy and to set an example in ruling the world. Girl's boarding schools, or finishing schools, were designed to train girls to be passive wives and mothers, with the ability to be superb organizers of huge country estates filled with servants. The middle classes usually went to day schools where they were taught to be happy with their lot in life and not to complain, and the really poor kids lived in workhouses where they were trained to be servants. All of which required an innate understanding of status; who is above you and who is below you, and a complete acceptance of your lot in life. Change to ones status or class was not only impossible but also inconceivable. Now-a-days status and class are only truly understood by the British, Japanese and Middle Eastern Cultures. It is a cultural phenomenon created by centuries of behavior and mores that still live deep in our blood now matter how modern we think ourselves today. I may have gone of the topic a bit here, but any understanding of British sensibility will help increase anyone's understanding and appreciation of the Harry Potterverse. Cheers, Mandy From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed May 12 19:05:25 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 19:05:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98156 > bboy_mn wrote > I think Sirius (or JKR, if you prefer) simple picked a generic doggie sounding name for Harry, Ron, & Hermione to use as an safe alternative when referring to him; a neutral generic name that would raise few suspicions if overheard in a coversation. Mandy here: My thoughts exactly. Sirius came up with the most nondescript name her could, that sounded the least like an escaped murderer on the run for his life. The escaped convict, mass murderer Sirius Black is the last thing that would come into anyone's mind if HRH were overheard talking about 'Snuffles.' From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 12 19:09:21 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 19:09:21 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape's repect. [was: Sirius and Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98157 > > Finwitch wrote: > > Nah - respect must be *earned*. While I do see that Severus Snape > has earned >Dumbledore's respect (for things Harry does not know > about and no one bothers to tell >him) he has NOT earned Harry's. > > Mandy Here: > Respect needs to be earned in the adult world. But we're dealing > with English Boarding Schools here, and respect is absolutely, > unquestionable demanded from the pupil by the professors whether they > deserve it or not. > Potioncat: I think Snape does deserve Harry's respect. He has no claim to being liked, or admired. He is a teacher, an accomplished wizard, a member of the Order. Respect is due. And I think DD is gently insisting on that, understanding the ill feelings between the two and letting that be. I think Molly is of the mind set that Mandy describes. It is the way children address adults, particularly teachers. Harry at the least needs to "show" respect even if he doesn't feel it. Potioncat (all this from why is Lupin not Remus!) From pbyrd at mail.utexas.edu Wed May 12 15:15:21 2004 From: pbyrd at mail.utexas.edu (soccerboyatut2004) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:15:21 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98158 > Pippin: >But what he really > wants, what he's always wanted, is a family who loves him. > Call me a shipper, call me a hopeless > romantic, but when he's given up the wizarding world to save it, > and it seems he's lost everything, there'll turn out to be one > witch who thinks, like Arthur Weasley, that the Muggle world does > not lack for wonder, and besides, any world with Harry in it is > magical enough. > Pippin StrongBad comments: Sorry. I just don't buy it. No way he returns to the muggle world by some never used magic spell, or something, as a sacrifice. Squib? Maybe. But not returning him to the Muggle world entirely. He knows too much. People know too much about him. Wouldn't work. Now stripping him of all his powers (all of which came from Voldie in this theory), that makes more sense to me. He will have to deal with the realization that without Voldies powers, he was never special, never a real wizard. His inability to do magic will be hard enough to swallow, and he'll be capable to exist without it due to growing up on Privet. I think the loss of power will come to fruition via his murder of Voldie. Voldie couldn't kill Harry at Godric's Hollow because of the Ancient magic his mother performed. IMO, Voldie himself never could have killed Harry (or vice versa) until that charm was lifted or equalized. There exists literary correlations to that premise everywhere. DD said the charm was in Harry's blood, from his mother. Then Voldie got Harry's blood at the end of the GoF. Hence the gleam of triumph in DD's eyes. He now knows Voldie is now vulnerable to die a human death, as Harry is (an aside though). Harry will SOMEHOW kill Voldie at the end of Book 7, and in the process heal the scar on his forehead, and destroy his magical powers in the process; and probably know about the loss of powers before he does it. That is his sacrifice. No longer famous, special, or magical. Just normal and forgotten. His sacrifice. In the end he will get the family he wants, via the Weasley's and his better half discovered in later books (no shipping wars here). JKR will not turn her hero off completely to the world he knows, the world she created. There will be a sacrifice, but life or muggle- hood it will not be. IMHO. StrongBad From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 12 19:55:22 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 19:55:22 -0000 Subject: Snape as a teacher In-Reply-To: <005901c4384a$9ebc6a60$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98159 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" > Because of the books' settings, a lot of the people from outside Hogwarts that we see are Ministry wizards (and we see a little of the internal workings of the Ministry via Arthur and Percy). But there's never any mention of what House they were in at school. > > I find that a bit surprising, though it may just be because we're seeing things through Harry's eyes rather than what goes on when he's not around. > While they've been in school, they've been in an environment where the first loyalty is to their House, with the regular and engrained competition for the House Cup, the Quidditch Cup, and for the esteem of the Head of House. > > So shouldn't that automatically carry forward to the Ministry? Pippin: I don't think it does. The older kids don't seem to care very much about the House Cup. I think most adult wizards see the House rivalry as something they've outgrown--to still be concerned about your house standings as an adult would be a bit like Bagman running around in his old Wimbourne Wasps uniform--rather gauche, I should think. The older students are mostly concerned with their OWLs and NEWTs, and nobody seems to associate exam grades with Houses. Even when Lucius is giving Draco a hard time about his grades in CoS, he doesn't say it's a shame that a Gryffindor beat him. As for the reputation of ex-Slytherins generally, there is no one more concerned about popularity than Cornelius Fudge. If hanging around with ex-Slytherins would expose him to badmouthing in the press, he wouldn't do it. I don't think a Slytherin boss would want many other Slytherins underneath him--he'd be better off with Hufflepuffs. Pippin From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed May 12 19:57:25 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 14:57:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 7 predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98160 StrongBad comments: In the end he will get the family he wants, via the Weasley's and his better half discovered in later books (no shipping wars here). JKR will not turn her hero off completely to the world he knows, the world she created. There will be a sacrifice, but life or muggle- hood it will not be. IMHO. (SNIP) Gina: sorry to snip so much. Maybe Harry will only lose the LV powers (parcel tongue, etc) and LV will tell him how that power is what makes him special, etc. He will not be un-magical so to speak. He will probably still be an auror or even a teacher, but not famous Harry Potter which will let people like Snape know where Harry's heart always was. It will let them know he was not a show off. Not to stir up shipping on my part either but IF Harry lost powers he would certainly be with Hermione as Ginny would never be able to adapt to muggle life and I get the giggles picturing Luna ironing. :-) Gina - who adores Harry and though excited about book 6 hates that it is closing in on the end. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed May 12 20:43:08 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 20:43:08 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98161 Pippin: > > But what he really wants, what he's always wanted, is a family > > who loves him. Call me a shipper, call me a hopeless romantic, > > but when he's given up the wizarding world to save it, and it > > seems he's lost everything, there'll turn out to be one witch who > > thinks, like Arthur Weasley, that the Muggle world does not lack > > for wonder, and besides, any world with Harry in it is magical > > enough. StrongBad comments: > Sorry. I just don't buy it. No way he returns to the muggle world > by some never used magic spell, or something, as a sacrifice. > Squib? Maybe. But not returning him to the Muggle world > entirely. He knows too much. People know too much about him. > Wouldn't work. > > Now stripping him of all his powers (all of which came from Voldie > in this theory), that makes more sense to me. He will have to deal > with the realization that without Voldies powers, he was never > special, never a real wizard. His inability to do magic will be > hard enough to swallow, and he'll be capable to exist without it > due to growing up on Privet. > > I think the loss of power will come to fruition via his murder of > Voldie. > Harry will SOMEHOW kill Voldie at the end of Book 7, and in the > process heal the scar on his forehead, and destroy his magical > powers in the process; and probably know about the loss of powers > before he does it. That is his sacrifice. No longer famous, > special, or magical. Just normal and forgotten. His sacrifice. > > In the end he will get the family he wants, via the Weasley's and > his better half discovered in later books (no shipping wars here). > JKR will not turn her hero off completely to the world he knows, > the world she created. There will be a sacrifice, but life or > muggle-hood it will not be. IMHO. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Hmmmm. Well I was going to disagree with you, Strongbad, but I ended up confused at the end, because I'm not sure disagree totally. At first, when you said Harry got ALL his powers from Voldy and that, once they are gone, Harry will realize he was NEVER special.... To *that* I say I absolutely disagree. On the contrary, I believe that Harry got *some* powers from Voldy but that he had some special gifts & talents himself from birth. IMO he is special, indeed. In the scenario (which I do think is somewhat likely) where Harry loses all his powers in the process of defeating/killing Voldy, Harry would certainly have made a HUGE sacrifice, but it doesn't have to be that he realizes he was a nobody, really. In fact, I think he'll be able to be proud of the fact that he used both his own gifts and the abilities Voldy transferred to him *against* Voldy to defeat him. There would be a lot to be proud of in that! And why would people forget him? Even if he lost all powers, sacrificed his "magical self," why would people forget him? On the contrary, I think bboy had it right in his little fic [98128] where Harry lost it all but he was HAPPY that the burden of fighting evil would finally be removed from him. And I think he'd still be adored by many for his sacrifice. Given this, I'm surprised to find that I do agree with your ending comments. I don't think Harry will die, either, and I don't think he'll have to return to the Muggle world. I think, a la bboy, that Harry will find a place within the WW but there will simply be lots of things he won't be able to do for himself...or will have to do a different way. Siriusly Snapey Susan From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 12 20:43:57 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 20:43:57 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (More names..., Severus Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98162 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" wrote: Potioncat: > << I find it interesting that Severus and Lucius are named after the > same person: Lucius Septimius Severus, a Roman Emperor who died in > York. > Here's an interesting quote about him: > > He ruled with vigor and, when he found it useful, a calculated > cruelty. Caracalla succeeded him. > See study by A. R. Birley (1971). > > The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright ? 2003 Columbia > University Press.>> > Sigune: > There were in fact several emperors who had 'Severus' in their names - > there was one called 'Alexander Severus' (222-235 AD), one 'Flavius > Valerius Severus' (306-307 AD) and even one 'Libius Severus' (461- 465 > AD, Western Empire) whose nickname was *Serpentius*! > > Personally I can't choose between the emperor who combines both > Lucius and Severus in his name, and the one who connects Severus with > snakes :). Geoff: But have you taken into account that he is a seventh child? Has this any bearing on our greasy-haired friend? From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 12 20:52:23 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 20:52:23 -0000 Subject: Back to Snuffles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98163 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > ladyramkin2000 (Sylvia) wrote: > > Sorry, but even after all the discussion, I still can't see why JKR > > (or Sirius) should have chosen that particular name. They are both > > English (as I am) and I think to most English people, the verb "to > > snuffle" suggests someone speaking through a heavy cold, or in the > > aftermath of a prolonged fit of crying. It has a rather Uriah > > Heepish feel about it. I would have expected something a bit more > > elegant for Sirius, even at his most run-down. Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > I've stayed out of this one so far because it's not something that > upsets me or anything, but I do have one thing to add. When I first > read the line where Sirius says to call him "Snuffles", I did snort > out loud. The reason, though, was that I am very fond of a line of > stuffed bears put out by the company Gund which are > called "Snuffles". My family owns a couple of Snuffleses and several > Snuffs [the mini-version]. Geoff: Yes, but to me, as an owner of dogs (two Border collies, black and white and intelligent), it makes sense. We often say when we're out with them things like "Why are the dogs snuffling around over there?" using snuffling in the sense of the dogs whizzing round in circles with their noses to the ground following scents. To me, no problem. From squeakinby at tds.net Wed May 12 21:57:23 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:57:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Back to Snuffles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A29DC3.2090405@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98164 Geoff Bannister wrote: > Yes, but to me, as an owner of dogs (two Border collies, black and > white and intelligent), it makes sense. We often say when we're out > with them things like "Why are the dogs snuffling around over there?" > using snuffling in the sense of the dogs whizzing round in circles > with their noses to the ground following scents. To me, no problem. I have 2 bullmastiffs, a breed with a short nose and it would never (and never did!) occur to me to think snuffling had anything to do with dogs. I'm not sure I ever saw the word snuffling until you wrote it, Geoff. Jem From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed May 12 21:11:44 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 21:11:44 -0000 Subject: The Map, the Twins, the Rat? (Why is there a passage to Honeydukes anyway?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98165 Annemehr: The map did show Harry how to get into the secret passage into Honeydukes, but I took that as more of a charm than a password that would be periodically changed. vmonte responds: Why is there a secret passage that leads to Honeydukes anyway? It seems strange that there is a passage there. Who made it? The map only points it out, but who originally made it? and why? Was there a different place of business there previously? If people can use it to get out of Hogwarts couldn't someone from the outside be using it to get in as well? vmonte From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 12 21:15:56 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 21:15:56 -0000 Subject: Back to Snuffles In-Reply-To: <40A29DC3.2090405@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: > Geoff Bannister wrote: > > > Yes, but to me, as an owner of dogs (two Border collies, black and > > white and intelligent), it makes sense. We often say when we're out > > with them things like "Why are the dogs snuffling around over there?" > > using snuffling in the sense of the dogs whizzing round in circles > > with their noses to the ground following scents. To me, no problem. Jem: > I have 2 bullmastiffs, a breed with a short nose and it would never (and > never did!) occur to me to think snuffling had anything to do with dogs. > > I'm not sure I ever saw the word snuffling until you wrote it, Geoff. Geoff: Siriusly Snapey Susan has just emailed me off-group to query whether it is a UK v. US English thing. I'm not sure whether you are in the US but I replied that I often feel that some of the linguistic misinterpretations which occur are possibly due to that. I don't know whether your comment about my usage of the word represents a cultural quantum leap for Anglo-US relations in the Wizarding World or that I have been leading a sheltered life in the Forbidden Forest.... It was Oscar Wilde who observed that "America and England are two nations divided by a common language" and I think that Bill Bryson would say "Amen" to that as well. I would :-)) From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 12 21:18:38 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 21:18:38 -0000 Subject: The Map, the Twins, the Rat? (Why is there a passage to Honeydukes anyway?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: vmonte: > Why is there a secret passage that leads to Honeydukes anyway? It > seems strange that there is a passage there. Who made it? Geoff: Perhaps Dumbledore uses it to get his secret stock of sherbert lemons. From squeakinby at tds.net Wed May 12 22:34:01 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 17:34:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Back to Snuffles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A2A659.2090607@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98168 Geoff Bannister wrote: > I think it is a UK-US thing. > It was Oscar Wilde who observed that "America and England are two > nations divided by a common language" and I think that Bill Bryson > would say "Amen" to that as well. I would :-)) I think it was George Bernard Shaw. ;-) Jem From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed May 12 21:53:06 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 21:53:06 -0000 Subject: Harry- heir of Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98169 <<> <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says I differentiate between what JKR tells interviewers and what she puts in the heads and mouths of her characters. I think we're meant to see, from the reader's perspective, that these distinctions are meaningless, like the difference between quadroon, octoroon and mulatto, or the kind of thing we read about years ago in South Africa where a child in a family was arbitrarily reclassified racially and had to be registered as a live-in servant in order to remain in the family home. When you get right down to it, a long line of pureblood *anythings* is a contradiction in terms. No "pure" line lasts very long: the consequences of inbreeding cuts them short. As our Ron says (in the book; in the movie, Hagrid has the line) wizards have to intermarry with Muggles or they'd die out. --JDR (whose theory about Tom's heritage is expounded here: http://www.thedarkarts.org/authors/smajorette/AGT.html) From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 12 22:13:51 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 22:13:51 -0000 Subject: Back to Snuffles In-Reply-To: <40A2A659.2090607@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98171 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: > Geoff Bannister wrote: > > > I think it is a UK-US thing. > > > It was Oscar Wilde who observed that "America and England are two > > nations divided by a common language" and I think that Bill Bryson > > would say "Amen" to that as well. I would :-)) Jem; > I think it was George Bernard Shaw. ;-) Geoff: Egad. Thou art in sooth correct O wise one. In contrition, I shall beat my head thrice on something soft, like a snuffling dog mayhap. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed May 12 22:16:21 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 22:16:21 -0000 Subject: Back to Snuffles In-Reply-To: <40A2A659.2090607@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98172 Geoff Bannister wrote: > > I think it is a UK-US thing. > > It was Oscar Wilde who observed that "America and England are > > two nations divided by a common language" and I think that Bill > > Bryson would say "Amen" to that as well. I would :-)) Jem responded: > I think it was George Bernard Shaw. ;-) Whether Oscar or George, I think it's accurate sometimes. Think of our previous humorous discussion of "punting" across the swamp. :-) As I said to Geoff, I think in the US I'd be more inclined to say a dog was "sniffing" or "sniffling" than "snuffling," which was why I asked him whether it might be another UK-US difference.... Then again, I'm a cat person, so who knows! Siriusly Snapey Susan From squeakinby at tds.net Wed May 12 23:21:09 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 18:21:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Back to Snuffles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A2B165.8010106@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98173 Geoff Bannister wrote: > Geoff: > Egad. Thou art in sooth correct O wise one. In contrition, I shall > beat my head thrice on something soft, like a snuffling dog mayhap. Snuggle into a nice soft dog, it always works for me! Oh Daisy, you're required! Jem From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed May 12 22:39:23 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 22:39:23 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape's repect. [was: Sirius and Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98174 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says As has already been pointed out, British boarding schools are meant to teach military manners to the boys. The words "respect" and "courtesy" do not carry exactly the same connotations they do in civilian life. Military courtesy and the respect shown to a superior officer have less to do with what one thinks of the officer in question and more to do with one's own military bearing. One of the cheapest and most entertaining enlisted pastimes on the base where I was trained was to wait outside administrative buildings for newly minted lieutenants with armfuls of books and papers, and salute them smartly, calling loudly "Good morning, SIR! Afternoon, MA'AM!" As we had many days of service on them, we could almost always make them drop their papers on the mandatory return salute. Then there's the story (apocryphal, perhaps, but I believe it) of the young lieutenant who insisted on proper courtesy in the field even though the grizzled old sergeant tried to explain why saluting in combat situations was bad operational security. Old Sarge finally says "Well, sir, if you insist..." As the story goes, the young officer's head was gone before his hand completed the return salute. Snipers. I don't understand why Dumbledore couldn't find some way to see that Harry knows what he needs to know if he's such a clever wizard, but it's obvious that, for many reasons, Harry needs to learn to keep his feelings in check, and his thoughts to himself. From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Wed May 12 23:11:50 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Back to Snuffles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040512231150.88333.qmail@web42104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98175 cubfanbudwoman wrote: ladyramkin2000 (Sylvia) wrote: > Sorry, but even after all the discussion, I still can't see why JKR > (or Sirius) should have chosen that particular name. akh: I've enjoyed reading all the permutations of Snuffles, and, as a many-generation American, I've heard it used both ways, as a cuddly name and as another way to describe sniffing. But now, to my point... When I read the passage, I presumed Sirius was coming up with a deliberatly unlikely name. Who would think, "Gee, I wonder if Harry is referring to his serial-killer Godfather when he mentions Snuffles?" I saw it as a very effective cover for the real person. akh, who realizes she can only be one generation of American... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 21:21:24 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 14:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neville's powers (was RE: Will Harry loose his powers?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040512212124.71444.qmail@web50009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98176 Pippin responded: Yeah, that's what I've been saying too. And I've thought of a way it could happen. We know that some of Harry's magical abilities came from Voldemort. Suppose they all did? Suppose it's Harry, not Neville, who was the natural-born squib. So when Voldemort finally dies, Harry's powers vanish forever. My reply: I think it's a great theory. But I mean the one thing that I have against it is Neville is not, or ever really was a squib. The truth is it's not his fault that he is slow, by all accounts he probably naturally had a lot of magical talent. It is not directly stated but somewhat implied that his forgetfullness is the result of very powerful memory charms that were preformed on him as a little child. You know now that I think about it, he could have been just as powerful as Harry maybe he avoided being tortured, just like Harry fended off the killing curse. The thing is we don't know. But even if his forgetfulness and need to work hard isn't from a memory charm the truth is there are plenty of reasons why things would come harder to some people and not others. I'm sure the wizarding world is not without learning disorders or other complexes that could cause issues. And believe me JKR thinks about those types of things, she was a teacher afterall. I personally always loved Neville because I have ADD and he always reminded me of myself a bit. But that's just me. Sorry if this is way off but I mean I just had to give my say in about Neville. I personally think his Grandmother is extremely hard on him, and probably doesn't know what magic he may have possessed as child, she didn't take care of him completely until he was over a year old. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed May 12 23:21:10 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 23:21:10 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape and Respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98177 Arya now: I agree with both above comments to a point, however, as to what Wanda writes, I don't think it's that simple. Sure, when starting out and all things being uneven and without bias, a person with the title "professor" will indeed be automatically granted more respect than say a peer of your own student rank. HOWEVER...Snape started making an impression upon Harry which has consistantly eroded the any respect Harry may have granted him on the basis of simply being his 'professor'. While actions/words/impressions are all valid reasons for one to earn respect, they are also valid reasons for one to LOSE respect. Snape has done more than enough over the years (his few good actions and vouching from CC barely puts old Severus up on even ground IMO) for Harry to withdraw his respect. Bookworm: Once upon a time, I had an Executive Officer who almost drove me out of the Navy, she was so vile. Despite that, I *always* referred to her as Commander (Nameless) when talking to others, except maybe to very close friends. It is one thing to refer to "Snape" when Harry is talking to his friends in the common room. It is very disrespectful to refer to him without his title when talking to another adult. As the Sergeant Majorette said: Military courtesy and the respect shown to a superior officer have less to do with what one thinks of the officer in question and more to do with one's own military bearing. I'll add to it that the junior shows respect to the senior position or rank, even if s/he has no respect for the person. Ravenclaw Bookworm (who met a few of the Sergeant Majorette's Navy counterparts when she was a lowly ensign.) From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed May 12 23:37:59 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 23:37:59 -0000 Subject: The Map, the Twins, the Rat? (Why is there a passage to Honeydukes anyway?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98178 I "vmonte" wrote: Why is there a secret passage that leads to Honeydukes anyway? It seems strange that there is a passage there. Who made it? Geoff: Perhaps Dumbledore uses it to get his secret stock of sherbert lemons. vmonte again: You know, you're probably right! From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed May 12 23:57:32 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 23:57:32 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions/oh no fluffy bunnies again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: Pippin wrote: > > But what he really wants, what he's always wanted, is a family > > who loves him. StrongBad wrote: > In the end he will get the family he wants, via the Weasley's and > his better half discovered in later books (no shipping wars here). Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: > I don't think Harry will die, either, and I don't think he'll have to return to the Muggle world. I think, a la bboy, that Harry will find a place within the WW but there will simply be lots of things he won't be able to do for himself...or will have to do a different way. Carolyn comments: Oh no, yet another outbreak of the fluffy bunnies....let us consider some alternatives (quick). Most people would agree that it is difficult, sadly impossible, to eradict evil from the world, and that this probably applies to the WW as well as RL. Defeating Voldemort can only be an episode in an eternal conflict. A more interesting and to my mind, more realistic set of issues to consider is who picks up the baton, and in what circumstances when Voldemort is defeated. Scenario 1: (FEATHERBOAoriginal) - most major characters are dead, including Harry. They have won, but at a terrible price. The conflict has been so intense that even the muggles have noticed a thing or two (rampaging giants and dragons are a bit tricky to hide in the average town centre). The task of picking up the pieces must go to a new generation of less- experienced wizards and just-graduated Hogwarts students. Like post- 1945, a lot of old certainties will have gone forever, eg non-humans will be demanding more equal rights as payment for the part they played in the war. Representatives of the losing dark side will be scattered far and wide, seething mad, licking their wounds. The pre- war activities of the MoM mean that it is held in wide distrust by the wizard on the street. In this scenario, the bunnies may well indulge in rutting for a little light relief, but the day to day struggle will be grim for many years to come as they rebuild their society. Harry's role will be remembered and celebrated in history books, but the future belongs to others. The series ends with some ambiguity as to whether the WW will be able to find a way through. Scenario 2: (FEATHERBOAlite) - Harry wins but dies, because he was only ever a WMD, and so do various close companions in uplifting acts of loyalty and bravery. Dumbledore has won another round in the long game, but under-estimates the backlash which builds against him for expending so many chess pieces. As a consequence, he retreats again to his former role as Headmaster of Hogwarts and is not encouraged to play a leading role in the new government. Well-meaning, but rather weak people like Arthur Weasley try to make a go of it, but the stage is set for another wannabe Dark Lord to start to build his/her powerbase. Bunnies formerly part of the DA form a new secret chapter, dedicated to upholding Harry's values; Hermione is their leader. Refusing ever to marry (in his memory), she pursues a dogged crusade to unite the WW in a 'charter of trust'. Eventually, someone shoots her. Scenario 3: (FEATHERBOA-flavoured) - hooray, Harry is still alive, and he's won. But alas, a number of his close companions didn't make it through the night, some of them because of further mistakes that he made. Dumbledore has also 'died' in somewhat mysterious circumstances. Fawkes has transferred his affections to Harry. He goes through numerous long nights of the soul, is somewhat reclusive and spends a lot of time travelling, talking to strange creatures and very odd wizards all over the world. He does come back to England, but gradually comes to understand he has inherited Dumbledore's mantle and all the foresight and responsibility that goes with that role. His temperament is frankly not suited to this, or to taking the MoM in hand, and in the next major conflict with the Dark forces which inevitably occurs, he loses, possibly intentionally. In the initial aftermath of his victory over Voldie, he acquires an extremely enthusiastic bunny fan club, led by Ginny Weasley, who has high hopes. However, he gives she and them no encouragement whatsoever, and eventually they lose heart, and turn to rutting amongst themselves. The next great wizard to be re-born into Harry's role comes from a totally unexpected quarter, possibly from a WW community abroad. Not to everyone's tastes, I am sure..but at least no cliched sunsets. Carolyn From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Wed May 12 23:25:00 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 23:25:00 -0000 Subject: The Map, the Twins, the Rat? (Why is there a passage to Honeydukes anyway?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > I "vmonte" wrote: > Why is there a secret passage that leads to Honeydukes anyway? It > seems strange that there is a passage there. Who made it? I've been waiting to see how it ties in with the other passages and the Goblin Rebellion that was at the Three Broomsticks and the passage that had caved in the other year. Maybe someone was using the passages during the goblin wars. aj From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu May 13 00:33:44 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 00:33:44 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98181 vmonte: I don't beleive that all of Harry's magical powers came from Voldemort. In fact, the only thing that we do know is specifically a feature of Voldemort is to be a parseltongue. His flying skills, and his patronus stag, seem more like they are inherited from his father. I do, however, believe that Harry's greatest gift is his ability to love and his compassion for others. This gift is probably inherited from his mother, and although it has nothing to do with magic, it is more powerful than any magic. Harry will sacrifice himself -- to save his friends. Through all the books Harry's greatest fear is not Voldemort, the DEs, or even death. Harry's greatest fear is that he will lose the people he loves. When Voldemort possessed him at the MoM, Harry was not afraid to die. He welcomed it because he thought he would be reunited with Sirius. Remember how devastated Harry was when he thought that Mrs. Weasley was standing over dead Ron? Or how about when he thought that Hermione might be dead at the MoM? I don't even have to mention how badly Sirius's death hit Harry. I'm pretty sure that Harry will sacrifice himself, but that doesn't mean that he will die... Maybe someone will be able to put a stopper on death. Or maybe someone else will step up and forfeit their life to save Harry. Could it be Ron or Dumbledore? Ron did sacrifice himself for Harry in SS/PS, during the chess game. Was this foreshadowing (like many posters believe)? I do, however, feel that many people will die. Moody, Tonks, Luna (I think Luna already knows her destiny), Lupin, the Weasley parents (and some of the children), several Hogwarts teachers and students will die. These deaths alone will be enough to change the surviving characters forever. Besides even if Voldemort is defeated, JKR has implied that this type of battle is never really won. Someone will more than likely take Voldemort's place. Someone nastier and more powerful no doubt. vmonte From snow15145 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 00:42:01 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 00:42:01 -0000 Subject: Two DD's? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98182 Just to let you know, I was posting under the name Kathy King but will now be using my alternate yahoo name of snow15145. I had a lot of trouble bouncing under that account, made me feel a bit like Draco as the ferret. Not being able to comment or post anything for a while, I've been rereading slowly which has raised a few questions I would like to have your opinion on. The first is about the diary in COS. If Diary Tom would have completed the transformation and was now alive, wouldn't there have been two Tom Riddle's, the Diary Tom and the spirit of Voldemort that was residing in Albania? Also,If Tom Riddle could preserve himself in a diary at sixteen why couldn't DD have done something similar? Marchbanks said that when she tested DD during his NEWTs exams, he had done things with a wand she had never seen. What if DD is a whole lot older or younger than 150? Lets say that at some point in time DD preserved himself as a youngster. Then the older DD teaches the young preserved DD all that he knows so that the younger DD has knowledge well beyond his years when he takes his NEWTs. This new DD would only be seventeen but have the mind of a much older person. It is almost as complicated a theory as the time-turner situation. Although in this case the older DD would be aware of his younger preserved self (unlike the time-turner) and would not have been confused into the situation of killing the other him. It's not actually time travel. This could also be the answer to how DD worked with Nicholas Flammel. If the older DD was say 150 years old, or older, when he taught the younger version of himself everything he knew, (possibly through the pensieve) the younger DD could precede with all the knowledge of his former self. Now that the younger DD is 150 but has the intellect of a person of 300 or better, and knows of the procedure of preservation, couldn't this younger counterpart have again preserved himself? This operation could make a person extremely dangerous and a bit all knowing. This would also allow his past self, being much older, to have worked alongside Flammel at the appropriate age but still allow for the DD to follow the privilege of saying that he worked with Flammel. It wouldn't be a lie just a far stretched truth. Sounds a bit like DD, all knowing but never telling. Snow-aka Kathy King From teshara at yahoo.com Thu May 13 00:51:25 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 00:51:25 -0000 Subject: The Map (Blocked Passage) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98183 It's always bothered me that Harry's never investigated the blocked passage Fred mentions: 'There are seven in all. Now, Filch knows about these four-' he pointed them out,'-but we're sure we're teh only ones who know about these. Don't bother with teh one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. We used it until last winter, but it's caved in - completely blocked.' UK Paperback Pg. 144 Not even a peek behind the mirror. Where is it caved? At the mirror or half a mile in? Hmph. Poo on Harry for never being curious about important things concerning mirrors. I see a pattern here and I don't like it. ~ Chelle And concerning the twins: they still had 2 years left at the school, wouldn't they want the map? Why did they use the other passage rather than the one to the Candy Store? Where did it end? From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu May 13 01:17:28 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 01:17:28 -0000 Subject: Two DD's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98184 Snow-aka Kathy King wrote: Also,If Tom Riddle could preserve himself in a diary at sixteen why couldn't DD have done something similar? vmonte responds: I think he has preserved himself, not in a diary, but in the penseive. DD may very well realize that he will die in the coming war. I could see him leaving the penseive to someone. I'm sure that someone will probably add all of DD's memories to their own. vmonte From teshara at yahoo.com Thu May 13 01:32:57 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 01:32:57 -0000 Subject: Who owns the Riddle House? In-Reply-To: <014b01c4378e$86b4dc20$d28bf343@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98185 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" wrote: > *Mario's comment* > I am re-reading for the nth time GOF, and I thought that Malfoy > could be the mysterious owner of the house. Any theories? Mario > > *Kimberly's comment* (Canon text, GoF, Amer. ed. pg. 4 "But Frank did not leave. He stayed to tend the garden for the next family who lived in the Riddle House, and then the next-for neither family stayed long." I always assumed it was Voldie that bought it. I don't know how things are filed in the UK, but I'm fairly sure a powerful wizard can forge papers. ~ Chelle From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu May 13 01:36:44 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 01:36:44 -0000 Subject: Will Harry lose his powers? Slightly Ficcy - The End In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > Carol adds: > > > ... So I don't think Harry would have been a Squib, though I agree > > > that he would have been much less powerful--an ordinary wizard kid > > > like Ron--if he hadn't acquired most of Voldemort's powers at > > > Godric's Hollow.<<<<< > > > Pippin: > > > > I think that's too easy. This is supposed to be a sacrifice; Harry's > > got to give up something he really wants. ...edited... Harry > > certainly has his father's athletic talent, but is that magic? > > > > From what I've read of JKR's interviews, she doesn't like the sort > > of series where the hero is the ageless, changeless protagonist > > of endless sequels--I don't think she'd leave Harry to such a fate. > > > > Pippin > > > bboy_mn: > > Let me propose a compromise scenerio in the form of a very rough Fan > Fiction. > snip of leg scar scenario> Harry makes the ultimate sacrifice, and from that sacrifice comes > redemption. > > The best of all worlds. > > bboy_mn What if the opposite were to occur? What if, in the end, Harry had to obsorb *all* of the magic Voldemort possesses and then once in that snake faced, red eyed, evil state, find a way to expel the parts that he does not want in order to live his life. Perhaps the sacrifice Harry makes in the end will be in his understanding that he could, without a doubt, be the most powerful wizard of all time but would spend his life in a constant battle with himself to keep the evil overlord thing in check. And hence, he releases the powers and becomes "just Harry" good old standard wizard, ready for a life free of Voldemort. Although JKR has never guaranteed Harry would live, the loss of his magical power would in essence be his death, as would living vicariously through the people around him. I would rather he die out right than live his life with the devastation of living with no/limited magical power. That's what I think anyway! Sue (suehpfan) who hopes JKR finds a way to shock us with the end of the series as she has done so many times before! From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed May 12 21:44:20 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 21:44:20 -0000 Subject: Will Harry lose his powers? Slightly Ficcy - The End In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98187 bboy_mn wrote: So, we are left with a Harry that is extremely magically marginal, just short of a Squib. With time, and healing, and practice, Harry is able to do very elementary magic. He is magical enough to still be able to see the entrance to the Leaky Cauldron, so he can enter the magic world to see his friends. He can't curse any Dark Wizards, but he can heat a cup of tea with a tap from his wand. And, this is a good thing, because Harry will never be powerful enough that the wizard world will again be tempted to call on him for help, and that suits him just fine. He's certainly had more than enough Dark Wizard fighting to last anyone a lifetime. vmonte responds: I never considered that Harry might lose his magical ability. Harry has lost several people in his life; and he has never backed away from doing what is right, even if it meant his death. He is not afraid of dying either. At the MoM his only thought while possessed by Voldemort was that he would die and see Sirius again. Harry is afraid of losing the people he is close to. Remember what he thought when he believed that Mrs. Weasley was standing over Ron's dead body? I also remember the scene in SS/PS where Ron tells Harry that he has to sacrifice himself in order for Harry to get to Voldemort. What if Harry had to play DD for a moment and make a decision that was for the greater good. What if he has to let something happen to someone in order to defeat evil? I think that Harry's greatest loss would be to lose Ron as a friend. vmonte From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 13 02:01:50 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 02:01:50 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions/oh no fluffy bunnies again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98188 Pippin wrote: > > > But what he really wants, what he's always wanted, is a family > > > who loves him. StrongBad wrote: > > In the end he will get the family he wants, via the Weasley's and > > his better half discovered in later books (no shipping wars > > here). Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: > I don't think Harry will die, either, and I don't think > he'll have to return to the Muggle world. I think, a la bboy, that > Harry will find a place within the WW but there will simply be lots > of things he won't be able to do for himself...or will have to do a > different way. Carolyn comments: > Oh no, yet another outbreak of the fluffy bunnies....let us > consider some alternatives (quick). > > Most people would agree that it is difficult, sadly impossible, to > eradict evil from the world, and that this probably applies to the > WW as well as RL. Defeating Voldemort can only be an episode in an > eternal conflict. > Not to everyone's tastes, I am sure..but at least no cliched > sunsets. Siriusly Snapey Susan responds: Hmmm.... I don't know, Carolyn, you might not have intended to sound snide or anything like that, but, well, it kinda reads that way to me. Since a snip of my post was included in yours, I would like to point out that I didn't say anything which implied sunsets or fluffy bunnies. What I postulated--a Harry who lives but doesn't have his magical powers--isn't necessarily a cliched sunset or fluffy bunny, is it? I also know that I never said that all evil would be vanquished, only that Harry would succeed--somehow--in defeating/killing Voldy. I never imagined that evil would be eradicated. So I actually agree with you on that. Now, I've read some scenarios which include the proverbial ride off into the sunset, the White Hats knowing they've permanently removed all evil from the WW, but I've never espoused that. Siriusly Snapey Susan, who just wants to set the record straight. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 02:43:01 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 02:43:01 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98189 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: I don't think Harry will die, either, and I don't think > he'll have to return to the Muggle world. I think, a la bboy, that > Harry will find a place within the WW but there will simply be lots > of things he won't be able to do for himself...or will have to do a > different way. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Actually, bboy's ending works fine for me too. I suppose as long as Harry has his friends (who survived after the war, of course) in his life ans does not have to return to muggle world, I am happy. Alla From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu May 13 02:57:24 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:57:24 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter holds lessons for health In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <40A370B4.3127.40BFB34@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 98190 On 11 May 2004 at 21:51, Lucy Zinkiewicz wrote: > Another argument to use against people who don't like HP... check out > http://uninews.unimelb.edu.au/articleid_1364.html , where a professor > of public health describes how Australian schools can benefit from > learning more about HP. I went to a lecture by this Professor on this topic a couple of months ago. I wrote up a review of it if anyone wants to see it, just ask - I'm not sure it's really appropriate for the list. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 03:01:33 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 03:01:33 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape and Respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > Bookworm: > > Once upon a time, I had an Executive Officer who almost drove me out > of the Navy, she was so vile. Despite that, I *always* referred to > her as Commander (Nameless) when talking to others, except maybe to > very close friends. It is one thing to refer to "Snape" when Harry > is talking to his friends in the common room. It is very > disrespectful to refer to him without his title when talking to > another adult. > > As the Sergeant Majorette said: Military courtesy and the respect > shown to a superior officer have less to do with what one thinks of > the officer in question and more to do with one's own military > bearing. I'll add to it that the junior shows respect to the senior > position or rank, even if s/he has no respect for the person. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm (who met a few of the Sergeant Majorette's Navy > counterparts when she was a lowly ensign.) Well, yes, but that if we all accept that Hogwarts is the exact prototype of military school, which I for myself cannot accept yet. Who knows, maybe when in book 6 Hogwarts becomes a military center for anti-Voldie resistance , I will change my mind. Right now, despite strong arguments for Dumbledore preparing children to fight in advance, because he anticipated Voldie coming back, I still think of Hogwarts as a civilian school, where Harry owes Snape no automatic respect. Mind you, I am not saying that Snape should not be referred to as "professor", because that is who he is and not to do so will be rude. Anything else should be earned and I don't think Snape earned it yet. Alla From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu May 13 04:17:54 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:17:54 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Professor" Snape and Respect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A38392.3544.455AF3E@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 98192 On 13 May 2004 at 3:01, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Well, yes, but that if we all accept that Hogwarts is the exact > prototype of military school, which I for myself cannot accept yet. > Who knows, maybe when in book 6 Hogwarts becomes a military center > for anti-Voldie resistance , I will change my mind. > > Right now, despite strong arguments for Dumbledore preparing children > to fight in advance, because he anticipated Voldie coming back, I > still think of Hogwarts as a civilian school, where Harry owes Snape > no automatic respect. I think some people are getting confused with ideas here. I attended a school that was very much modelled on the British Public School tradition. Because I absolutely loved my time at such a school, and because I'd also attended schools which were from a very different philosophy and I've sought to look at the differences over the years, I've also done a lot of reading on such schools over the years. I think I'm at least semi-qualified to give some opinions, though I'd yield to the expertise of someone who'd attended one of the British schools rather than my Australian copy (although it was a good copy, IMHO - the Australian APS and GPS schools worked very hard to retain their connection until quite recently often bringing out Masters and Headmasters from the UK to ensure things remained authentic). JKR models Hogwarts very much on the same traditions - or rather, to be more accurate in my opinion, she models Hogwarts on the traditional British boarding school as depicted in dozens - probably hundreds, possibly thousands (-8 - of school stories written in the 19th and 20th centuries. These stories tended to filter and idealise to the extent that the schools depicted are often even purer exemplars of the traditional model than may of the real schools were. JKRs drawing on this influence is incredibly obvious to me - but I probably wouldn't be able to convince anyone of that if they hadn't read those stories. Now these schools weren't (generally) anything like military schools in the sense most modern people understand that term. And their primary intention wasn't to create future army officers - in peace time, for many of the schools, it was expected that only a small number of their ex-pupils wouldn't enter the services. *However* it was always understood and anticipated that in times of war, the ex-pupils of these schools were likely to become the instant officers that a rapidly expanding peacetime army would need to fight a major war. If you were a boy at such a school, you were more likely to be planning a career as a lawyer or a civil servant than to be a soldier. But it was understood that *if* war broke out between about your 18th and 30th birthday, then you were quite likely to become an army officer for the duration. Not as a long term career - just for the period of the war. If you were lucky, you finished school in 1902, at a time of relative peace. If you were unlucky you finished school in 1914 and wound up in the trenches. The point is that while the schools weren't military schools, as such, and their primary purpose was not to create future soldiers, they still regarded it as part of their function and their duty to create men who could become soldiers - and more specifically could become officers - very quickly, if necessary. And that meant the discipline of such schools often had at least a slightly military flavour, even though they weren't really military schools - because they knew that there was always a reasonable chance that the boys (and it was virtually always boys) they taught would have to be ready to take orders, and to give them. Now - when it comes to Hogwarts... >From what we see, the Wizarding World doesn't seem to have anything like a standing army. And there may not be any need for anything like that. But the existence of Voldemort and his reign of terror during the 1970s indicates a world where there are real threats to be faced at times. And from what we know of Voldemort's time, it looks like he was opposed largely by people who entered the fray without any special training - there were aurors, of course - but many of the people fighting him seem to have been 'civilians'. And in Order of the Phoenix we see much the same thing - the people moving up to fight against Voldemort are teachers, and housewives, as well as people like aurors. If you're running a school in a world where there is a realistic chance that your students are one day going to face a situation where they have to fight for their lives and the lives of others, then there is a duty on the school to ensure the students are prepared for that eventuality. That may well place at least some degree of 'militariness' on a school, even if it doesn't come close to being a military school. Learning to show proper respect for others because of their position even if you don't feel they deserve it personally, is an important thing in this case. In an ideal world, the people who are in charge of you will be the type that you can respect because of who they are. But you don't always have that ideal world. And in a crisis that doesn't remove the need for people to work together. Now, I think personally can see a couple of aspects to people like Dumbledore expecting students (especially Harry) to show Snape respect. Remember that Dumbledore has spent years aware of the fact that Voldemort will return but not knowing when that would occur. Dumbledore is also aware, from the prophecy that Harry will be critical in the eventual defeat of Voldemort. Dumbledore has a duty to prepare all his students - especially Harry - for the possibility of the Second War. That includes a duty to consider the fact that he may not be around himself to lead those students. Like it or not, I think it's pretty clear that Dumbledore needs to consider the possibility that at some point his students, and especially Harry, will be fighting a war and Snape could be thrust into a position of command. Snape isn't the type to command respect because of who he is personally. Trying to ensure respect for his position is therefore something Dumbledore may feel it's especially necessary to stress. More personally... I think Dumbledore knows Snape's psyche very well. Personally I feel Snape *craves* Harry's respect. Snape - for whatever reason - does not appear to have been treated well by James Potter and his friends. They didn't respect him - and I think Snape may well have craved that respect for all sorts of reasons. Look at Snape's relationship with Remus and Sirius. While he certainly isn't friendly with either of them - he seems to be able to hold himself better in control around Remus than around Sirius. Why? I think it's because Lupin goes out of his way to treat Snape with respect, and Snape responds to that. Black, on the other hand, doesn't respect Snape - and so Snape cannot deal with him. Harry is the image of his father. And I think Dumbledore realises that if Harry treats Snape with respect, it's possible Snape will modify his behaviour towards Harry. Now that doesn't speak well of Snape at all - he's the adult, he should be the one trying to treat Harry properly - but he is obviously incapable of that. I think Dumbledore may feel that if Harry shows Snape respect, over time, Snape will be mollified. And that starts with minor courtesies. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From Pouncevil at Att.Net Wed May 12 19:50:12 2004 From: Pouncevil at Att.Net (Pouncevil at Att.Net) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 19:50:12 +0000 Subject: September 1st Message-ID: <051220041950.25899.40A27FF40009282C0000652B2160376223FF9B969A8DD19BD19190@att.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98193 I am worndring. When the Pope declared the Julian calender as the norm. And the WW using using quills and the like. I wonder if they also kept the old calender and the days of the year never changed. Any guesses??? -- Ronald D. Reid From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Wed May 12 23:43:50 2004 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 23:43:50 -0000 Subject: This may be an old subject but, Who owns the Riddle House? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98194 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > bboy_mn: > > Well, the only real answer is that, no one knows. > > I have often speculated that indeed Lucius Malfoy is the wealthy > business man who owns it for 'tax reasons'. Others have speculated > that it might be Dumbledore. > > * Alternate theory; Dumbledore bought it because he knew it was tied to > Voldemort and at some point Voldemort might want to use it again. Once > everything has been resolve in book 7, Dumbledore will give it to > Harry, where Harry will retire to a quiet life in the country. > > Gina's reply: > Who would want to live in the house of the person that killed > their parents? Not to say you theory is wrong, but if it was Dumbledore I > would lean more to thinking it was so he could put his portrait spies to > work. I think LV would know if Dumbledore bought it though so I would think > Malfoy before DD. > > What about Fudge? I don't trust him at all and "tax reasons" sounds > much more like an answer he would give and he does think himself a business > man... Mario responds: Thank you, I also thought of Lucius, and Dumbledore, but I had not seen any reference in the archives. But, I think that Malfoy bought the house, and now that the gardener is dead, he gave it back to Voldemort and they are using it as headquarters for Voldemort and his death-eaters. It can very well be disguised using muggle-repellant charms, just as Hogwart is and hidden from wizards as 12 Grimauld Place is. Malfoy surely bought it to demonstrate to Voldemort (upon his return) that he always remained faithful, and that he was planning for his return, despite the fact that he (Lucius) surely denied ever working with Voldemort. Makes any sense? From SinfulSnape at aol.com Thu May 13 01:12:27 2004 From: SinfulSnape at aol.com (SinfulSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 21:12:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Q's about house-elves Message-ID: <19b.247d2dcf.2dd4257b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98195 Regarding House Elves, and maybe this has been asked before, but if there is no apparating allowed within Hogwart's school grounds, how can the house elves do it? Anyone know? Thanks! ~Rhonda~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fionasilvery at yahoo.com Thu May 13 06:32:38 2004 From: fionasilvery at yahoo.com (fionasilvery) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 06:32:38 -0000 Subject: JK inspired by the life of Coleridge? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98196 Dear friends, I was reading a short biography of Samuel Taylor Coleridge the other day... and couldn't help but notice a few things... [I don't know if they have been discussed here (if so, I apologize for the redundancy) -- I searched the archives for "Coleridge" and found nothing.] He was born in Ottery St Mary, was once in love with a woman called Mary Evans, and at one time in his life, a friend of his called Cruikshank promised to let him a house... Now what do you say of this? Fiona From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 13 07:19:38 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 07:19:38 -0000 Subject: Q's about house-elves - Apparation vs Transfer Charm In-Reply-To: <19b.247d2dcf.2dd4257b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98197 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SinfulSnape at a... wrote: > Regarding House Elves, and maybe this has been asked before, but if > there is no apparating allowed within Hogwart's school grounds, how > can the house elves do it? Anyone know? Thanks! > > ~Rhonda~ > bboy_mn: That's because Dobby didn't Apparate. Apparation is a form of wizard magic, Dobby used a completely different and unique form of ELF magic to accomplish the same thing. Speculation: Elves are experts in what I call Transfer Charms; moving things from one location to another. Example; at every meal they transfer a substantial amount of food up from the kitchen to the House Tables in the Great Hall. So, Elf teleportation in not Apparation, but a variation of the Transfer Charm. Dobby didn't Apparate, he merely transferred himself to a new location. Made all that up, but it's as good an explanation as any. Actually, JKR said in an interview that Dobby was able to 'apparate' because, in essense, elf magic is different than wizard magic. Just passing it along. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 13 07:31:20 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 07:31:20 -0000 Subject: The Map (Blocked Passage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chelle" wrote: > It's always bothered me that Harry's never investigated the blocked > passage Fred mentions: > > 'There are seven in all. Now, Filch knows about these four-' he > pointed them out,'-but we're sure we're teh only ones who know about > these. Don't bother with teh one behind the mirror on the fourth > floor. We used it until last winter, but it's caved in - completely > blocked.' > UK Paperback Pg. 144 > > Not even a peek behind the mirror. Where is it caved? At the mirror > or half a mile in? Hmph. > > Poo on Harry for never being curious about important things > concerning mirrors. I see a pattern here and I don't like it. > > ~ Chelle > And concerning the twins: they still had 2 years left at the school, > wouldn't they want the map? Why did they use the other passage > rather than the one to the Candy Store? Where did it end? bboy_mn: You forgot one other significant mention of the Passageway Behind the Mirror on the Fourth Floor. Sirius mentions it to Harry when Harry is trying to find a place to hold the DA meetings. I've always had a feeling that there was or would eventually be something significant about the passageway, and have asked myself the same questions you posed. I speculated that when Hogarts is attacked, Harry will need to very quickly hide several people to keep them safe, and THAT passageway might serve the purpose. But then, they could also hide in the Room of Requirements, or even the Chamber of Secrets. As a side note, I'm confident we will see the Chamber of Secrets again. Just as I'm confident that something is up with the 4th Floor Passageway, but I haven't a clue what it might be. Too many mysteries and only two books left. bboy_mn From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu May 13 09:11:09 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 09:11:09 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions/oh no fluffy bunnies again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98199 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Siriusly Snapey Susan responds: > Hmmm.... I don't know, Carolyn, you might not have intended to > sound snide or anything like that, but, well, it kinda reads that > way to me. > Carolyn Well, it certainly wasn't intended personally. I was responding to a stream of similar-sounding conclusions on the outcome of the books, which generally anticipated Harry surviving and finding ways of enjoying his subsequent life. From this POV, I do not withdraw the general intent, which was to try and change the focus from the minutiae of Harry's personal life to a consideration of the wider issues post VW2. The sweep of JKR's canvas is huge, and her plot is getting darker by the minute. She appears to me to be a realist and a sharp observer of the human condition. I'm interested in how she might handle some of the broader themes, at the same time as tying up the loose ends of the characters' stories. SSS: >>Since a snip of my post was included in yours, I would like to point out that I didn't say anything which implied sunsets or fluffy bunnies. What I postulated--a Harry who lives but doesn't have his magical powers--isn't necessarily a cliched sunset or fluffy bunny, is it? I also know that I never said that all evil would be vanquished, only that Harry would succeed--somehow--in defeating/killing Voldy. I never imagined that evil would be eradicated. So I actually agree with you on that.<<< Carolyn: Excellent. So, Harry is incapacitated and shuffled off somewhere like Bilbo..and the story moves on. Or, he's dead. Same thing really from a plot development angle. I am wondering what flavour we will be left with at the end. Will we be left with the impression that the WW continues on in its secret way beneath our feet, round the corner, if only we could see it? Or will the outcome be more serious, that even if Voldy is dead, the WW is in unstoppable decline, unable to facing up to its rotten ethics and sagging morality ? JKR has said that there never will be a rapprochement between the WW and RL - is this bad news for the WW ? What is its future in the 21st century? [Try the Artemis Fowl series BTW for a few amusing insights!] Tolkein certainly ended up (more gently) on a note of declining magic and a steady move towards modern society. His was a mystical and nostalgic tale of the early history of man, our lost world, where men did things men have gotta do, and women admired them for it..sorry, I digress. JKR is dealing with an altogether more contemporary situation. It is focused on one boy's story, but as a context for his personal struggles, she has created a very complex environment which IMO could go any of the ways that I outlined in my earlier post, and then some. From msmerymac at yahoo.com Thu May 13 09:15:47 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 09:15:47 -0000 Subject: The Map, the Twins, the Rat? (Why is there a passage to Honeydukes anyway?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98200 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > I "vmonte" wrote: > Why is there a secret passage that leads to Honeydukes anyway? It > seems strange that there is a passage there. Who made it? > > Geoff: > Perhaps Dumbledore uses it to get his secret stock of sherbert lemons. > > > vmonte again: > > You know, you're probably right! Luckie: In all seriousness, though, Dumbledore would have put a security troll in that corridor had he known the passage was there in PoA to guard it from Sirius. I think it goes to show that DD isn't omnipotent. From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 13 09:14:47 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 09:14:47 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (More names..., Severus Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98201 Potioncat: << I find it interesting that Severus and Lucius are named after the same person: Lucius Septimius Severus, a Roman Emperor who died in York. Here's an interesting quote about him: He ruled with vigor and, when he found it useful, a calculated cruelty. Caracalla succeeded him. See study by A. R. Birley (1971). The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright ? 2003 Columbia University Press.>> Geoff: << But have you taken into account that he is a seventh child? Has this any bearing on our greasy-haired friend? >> Pedantic Sigune: IS he a seventh child? I thought he was the child of a seventh child - his name is SeptimIus, not Septimus. Does that make any sense? In any case, Septimius being the middle name, I think that it is his gensnomen, so all his family would be called Septimius; his given name is Lucius and his cognomen or nickname is Severus. At least that is what I seem to remember from school. I guess I'm straying way off topic. Sorry! Just couldn't resist... Yours severely, Sigune From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Thu May 13 09:31:55 2004 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 09:31:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (More names..., Severus Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" > wrote: > > Potioncat: > > << I find it interesting that Severus and Lucius are named after > the > > same person: Lucius Septimius Severus, a Roman Emperor who died in > > York. > Sigune: > > There were in fact several emperors who had 'Severus' in their > names - > > there was one called 'Alexander Severus' (222-235 AD), > one 'Flavius > > Valerius Severus' (306-307 AD) and even one 'Libius Severus' (461- > 465 > > AD, Western Empire) whose nickname was *Serpentius*! > > > > Personally I can't choose between the emperor who combines both > > Lucius and Severus in his name, and the one who connects Severus > with > > snakes :). > > Geoff: > But have you taken into account that he is a seventh child? Has this > any bearing on our greasy-haired friend? June: Re names. For those who do not know, Roman names had very precise structure. Firstly they are in three parts, the "praenom" - equivalent to our first names, the "gens" or family name, and finally, for "higher ranked" Romans - the "cognomen". I'll stick largely to the rules that were prevalent among the Roman patriciate, though by the time of the Emperor Septimius Severus, the aristrocracy was much more homogenous and dilute due to incursions, internecine fighting and civil war. Gens: Names like Gaius, Lucius and Septimius. Note about Septimius, it was very unusual by the time of that Emperor for a roman family to have seven sons as the cost of equipping them for a political career was just too expensive. As a result, certain families had over time, and by tradition taken on certain "standard names" as praenomen so for instance if you were a partrician Julii of the gens or family Julii you would likely bear the praenom of Gaius or Sextus. And not Sextus because you were the sixth son. Members of the gens Cornelii - often Lucius. Freed slaves also generally took the gens of the family that freed them, upon manumission. Cognomina. This was created to differentiate the various Lucius Corneliuses around, or the Quintus Metelluses from each other for example. This was generally only needed for those "out of the loop" because a Roman of the governing class always knew who was being talked about - they all knew each other, and knew who was "in" and who was "out". Cognomen fall into three main types, a sarcastic nickname, like Caesar - meaning "head of hair" for a family line dominated by men who tended to lose their hair early in life, honorific - usually the name of the province the original owner brought into the Roman Empire, eg Quintus Metellus Macedonicus for the conqueror of Macedonia, or Severus for a man who was considered a martinet by his troops. That's how Lucius Septimius got his catchy last name and the gens "Septimius" (if it is a gens) tells me that his family were not descendants of any of the famous founding families of Rome. No surprise that anyhow, because due to the activities of certain emperors, there were very little pure patricians left to become Emperor. The army had become a way into the aristocracy/ruling caste by that time. As I recall, Lucius Septimius Severus like most emperors of that time came up via the army. I also seem to recall that like many of the later Emperors his actual origins were not strictly Roman/Italian but that he was a citizen from one or other of the provinces. That particular cognomen of Severus shows up earlier than this emperor, so it seems to have been standard as a description of a particular character. Of course, JKR could have any number of reasons for giving her character the name Severus. "Classical" sounding names seems to be popular among the pureblooded (not that we know for sure Snape is pureblooded - it may have been that his parents were just wanabees) - Lucius, Regulus, Sirius, Draco all are Latin derived. Severus and Snape together make a good sibilant, and Severus certainly sounds strict. I suspect the main design was to just make him sound a bit scary for the kids. I also hope she didn't take longer than five minutes thinking up his name, because generally (in fanfic at least), taking longer than five minutes to come up with the name of a character is a classic Mary/Gary Sue/Stu indicator... June From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 13 11:29:22 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 11:29:22 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (More names..., Severus Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98203 June wrote: > > Of course, JKR could have any number of reasons for giving her > character the name Severus. "Classical" sounding names seems to be > popular among the pureblooded (not that we know for sure Snape is > pureblooded - it may have been that his parents were just wanabees) - > Lucius, Regulus, Sirius, Draco all are Latin derived. Severus and > Snape together make a good sibilant, and Severus certainly sounds > strict. I suspect the main design was to just make him sound a bit > scary for the kids. Potioncat: That was a very interesting post! Several others have sent in excellent background information...Oh the things I'm learning from Harry Potter! I think you're probably right about the "reason" for the name. I would guess as she was browsing for names, that one jumped out for Snape! Someone commented whether the name should be Severe -us or Sever - us. In my PoA on tape, it's Sever us. How is it pronounced in the British version on tape? Or has anyone heard JKR pronounce it? And on another note, a few months ago someone suggested that Alan Rickman is the reason there are so many Snape supporters. Most of us denied it, but I have to admit, the Snape as read on this tape is not at all appealing! Potioncat From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Thu May 13 12:22:16 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:22:16 -0000 Subject: (More names..., Severus Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98204 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: ...snip... And on another note, a few months ago someone suggested that Alan Rickman is the reason there are so many Snape supporters. Most of us denied it, but I have to admit, the Snape as read on this tape is not at all appealing! Potioncat Inge: I would just like to point out that I read books 1-4 before watching any of the movies and that I had no idea Alan Rickman was to be Snape in the movies - but I loved Severus' character in the books long before I started liking him in the movies as well :-) From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 13 13:07:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:07:29 -0000 Subject: (More names..., Severus Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98205 Potioncat: Most of us denied it, but I have to admit, the Snape as read on this tape is not at all appealing! > Potioncat > Inge: > I would just like to point out that I read books 1-4 before watching > any of the movies and that I had no idea Alan Rickman was to be Snape > in the movies - but I loved Severus' character in the books long > before I started liking him in the movies as well :-) Potioncat: Oh, I agree. I did the same. I remember reading the first book, thinking he was the bad guy and liking him as the bad guy, then someone spoiled it that Quirrell was the villain and Snape became very interesting! Potioncat From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu May 13 13:28:00 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:28:00 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98206 Warning : I might be a bit rough in my wording (I'm sick, head's fuzzy, I have problems reading my words with others' eyes), but I do not mean to sound mean or anything, and I apologize if I do. vmonte wrote: > I don't beleive that all of Harry's magical powers came from > Voldemort. In fact, the only thing that we do know is > specifically a feature of Voldemort is to be a parseltongue. Del replies : Actually, we don't even know that for sure. We only know that this is what DD said to Harry, that he had inherited Parseltongue from LV. But that's not necessarily true. Harry could be a spontaneous Parselmouth. It's unlikely, but not impossible. Vmonte wrote : > His flying skills, and his patronus stag, seem more like they are > inherited from his father. Del replies : That bothers me too. The whole Love / Old Magic matter annoys me already, but at least we can suppose that Lily put a real Charm on Harry. But the fact that Harry naturally inherited his father's ability at Quidditch irritates me : extraordinary athletic capabilities are rarely inherited, and even when they are, they still usually need a lot of practice to blossom. Harry first got on a broom at age 11, I just can't see how he could be right away as good as his dad who probably mounted a broom as soon as he could sit on it. But the worst part is the whole stag business. Unless Harry saw his father transform into a stag as a baby, there's no way he could have known, even unconsciouly, how important the stag symbol was for him. Are we then supposed to believe in some mystical link between father and son ? It's possible, but it irritates me when it happens in an otherwise quite practical world. I'd rather believe that there's more to this stag business than meets the eye : did James, knowing that his own life was in danger and still wishing to protect his baby, perhaps put a Charm of his own on his son ? vmonte wrote : > I do, however, believe that Harry's greatest gift is his ability > to love and his compassion for others. This gift is probably > inherited from his mother, and although it has nothing to do with > magic, it is more powerful than any magic. Del replies : Even after all that time, even after reading so many posts about it, I still don't see it, I still don't see that Harry has any more love or compassion than any average kid. Harry has a lot of qualities, courage and perseverance for example, but he doesn't strike me as either particularly loving or exceptionnally compassionate. Can someone explain that to me yet again :-) ? vmonte : > Harry will sacrifice himself -- to save his friends. Through all > the books Harry's greatest fear is not Voldemort, the DEs, or even > death. Harry's greatest fear is that he will lose the people he > loves. Del replies : Many people are like that, it's not exceptional. Many kids will let themselves be tortured emotionally and physically rather than let someone they love be hurt, and they will go to incredible lengths to try and prevent one of their dear ones from dying. And many adults would rather hurt or die themselves than lose someone they love or see them in pain. "I would take your place if I could" is so common a phrase that it's almost a cliche. But by doing so, we would actually accomplish exactly the opposite of what we want, since losing us or seeing us in pain would be the most terrible thing possible for our dear ones. For people like Harry who believe in being reunited with their loved ones after they die, dying might actually be easier than living in pain and hopelessness. So I'm not sure that dying in itself would be so much of a sacrifice for Harry, especially if he's already lost many of his friends. If the choice was between dying and living a miserable life, it wouldn't be much of a choice for someone like Harry. *However*, if the choice was between dying and the promise of a happy, hopeful life, then of course it would then be a sacrifice. But that would mean that Harry *could* have this happy life, so it would mean that the Wizard War 2 would be already finished and LV had been defeated. But maybe LV would still be barely alive somewhere, and Harry could destroy him forever by dying, and if he waited it *might*, just might, be impossible later, and everything *might* start again sometime later, maybe much later. Then he would have to choose between dying to preserve the possible future of the WW, and living happily ever after or at least quite a few years with that beautiful (insert your favourite name here) who would be waiting for him back home. Now *that* would be a sacrifice all right ! vmonte wrote : > I'm pretty sure that Harry will sacrifice himself, but that > doesn't mean that he will die... Maybe someone will be able to > put a stopper on death. Or maybe someone else will step up and > forfeit their life to save Harry. Could it be Ron or Dumbledore? > Ron did sacrifice himself for Harry in SS/PS, during the chess > game. Was this foreshadowing (like many posters believe)? Del replies : I don't think Harry would like that better. Knowing Harry, he would never forgive himself, and he would make himself miserable for years, to atone for what he would probably see as his fault somehow. And I'm not even mentioning the sheer *pain* Harry would have to live with, if he were to lose Ron. I don't like Harry that much, but I can't wish *that* on him. I remember reading a series of books about 2 teenage friends when I was young. In the last book, they get involved in World War 2, one of them dies and the other is sent prisoner into German camps. I could never decide, and still can't, which one got the worst deal. Eric, the dead one, dies young and still full of innocence, he will never learn about the horrors of WW2, he will never have to deal with the torture and death of loved ones, and so on. But he will never love and be married, he will never have kids, he will never experience the joy of his country being liberated. Christian, on the other hand, will have to survive the camps, and if he does he will have to live through the tough demands of reconstructing a wrecked country. But maybe, if he gets through, he will know love and happiness again. But then again maybe he won't, maybe he will be too hurt and destroyed to ever enjoy happiness again. So who's to say which of the boys got the worst deal ? So I'm not sure which would be worse, whether Harry dies or lives. Del From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu May 13 13:44:58 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:44:58 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions/oh no fluffy bunnies again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: Snips > > The sweep of JKR's canvas is huge, and her plot is getting darker by > the minute. She appears to me to be a realist and a sharp observer of > the human condition. I'm interested in how she might handle some of > the broader themes, at the same time as tying up the loose ends of > the characters' stories. > > Or will the outcome be more serious, that even if Voldy is dead, the > WW is in unstoppable decline, unable to facing up to its rotten > ethics and sagging morality ? JKR has said that there never will be a > rapprochement between the WW and RL - is this bad news for the WW ? > What is its future in the 21st century? [Try the Artemis Fowl series > BTW for a few amusing insights!] > > JKR is dealing with an altogether more contemporary situation. It is > focused on one boy's story, but as a context for his personal > struggles, she has created a very complex environment which IMO could > go any of the ways that I outlined in my earlier post, and then some. Ah! The ineffable mind of JKR, confounding us at every turn. This thread is reminiscent of the old tale where a bunch of blind-folded folk are placed in front of an elephant and asked to identify it by touch..a wall, a snake, a tree...it all depends on which bit you grab. Just what story has JKR written? Posters have offered opinions right across the spectrum - rites of passage/loss of innocence; revenge and retribution; a morality tale ending in redemption; adventure; a commentary on society and it's faults; perhaps a satire in the tradition of Swift's Gullivers Travels. Maybe all of them, though that would be one hell of a trick for a first-time writer. In essence we see what we want to see; as in any book what you get out of it depends to a certain extent on what you bring to it. Personal tastes, prejudices, even experiences will tend to colour our comprehension. I think this will still be so even after the series is completed. Expect trenchant critiques when the tale can be viewed in it's entirety. Universal approbation for a story well told -hopefully; universal agreement on what it all signified - never. It's evident that the tale has grown darker book by book. It's texture has changed - PS/SS and OoP could almost have been written by different authors for different audiences, as if a publisher handed around a plot outline and asked for individual takes for each volume. Certainly I feel a sense of surprise verging on disorientation whenever I start to read the series anew. Read the series in sequence and the development seems natural - switch from OoP back to PS and it's a culture shock. PS/SS is a childrens book for sure; the later ones reposition themselves, but in readiness for what? HP is a personal view in more ways than one - firstly, and the bit that drives the site, it's Harry's view. Secondly it's JKR's view. This is something she's always been open about; she will not write to please others, only to please herself. If she loses her readers, so be it - a refreshing change in these days of focus groups and market-research driven offerings. So it's gonna be take it or leave it. Good. As it should be. I can live with that. Even if I don't like the resolution, I need only read book 7 once and I'll still get pleasure from the preceding 6 (or 5!). But just what is JKR's view? Well, there are hints, straws in the wind. She has no compunction in killing her characters even though it may distress both herself and the readers; there will be no reconciliation between Muggledom and the WW (continued estrangement is more likely to encourage pureblood attitudes); Harry's sufferings intensify book by book (an ominous, possibly indicative trend); and perhaps most significant of all - JKR does not believe in magic. This last predicates against a fluffy-bunny ending, IMO. There is no magic spell, no waving of wands, no deus ex machina, no simple solution to all the ills of the WW and any of the less than benevolent characters in it. I've never hidden the fact that I'd prefer - well, let's say a 'robust' conclusion. Deaths avenged, retribution taken, just desserts apportioned. Moral, but old-fashioned morality. The punishment fits the crime sort of thing. Others hope for a denoument with less Calvinist severity, even though Scotland is a traditional stronghold of Calvinism and that's where JKR lives and where Hogwarts is set. I remember a TV news report when GoF came out - a young girl grabbed her copy in a NY bookstore and was reading the first chapter - The Riddle House - on the spot. Her reaction, "Oh no! It's not supposed to be like this!" was possibly a portent of things to come. Having expectations is one thing; having them fulfilled is something else again. Certainly I don't see a way in which all the different reader's hopes can be reconciled; large clumps of disgruntlement can be predicted. Unless the next book is up-beat and gives cause for optimism (not something that can be predicted with confidence), the ending may be more traumatic than many may be comfortable with. But she's fooled us before, it could happen again. Maybe. Kneasy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 13 13:48:06 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:48:06 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions/oh no fluffy bunnies again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98208 a_reader2003 wrote: > I was responding to a stream of similar-sounding conclusions on the > outcome of the books, > which generally anticipated Harry surviving and finding ways of > enjoying his subsequent life. From this POV, I do not withdraw the > general intent, which was to try and change the focus from the > minutiae of Harry's personal life to a consideration of the wider > issues post VW2. > > The sweep of JKR's canvas is huge, and her plot is getting darker > by the minute. She appears to me to be a realist and a sharp > observer of the human condition. I'm interested in how she might > handle some of the broader themes, at the same time as tying up the > loose ends of the characters' stories. > > I am wondering what flavour we will be left with at the end. Will > we be left with the impression that the WW continues on in its > secret way beneath our feet, round the corner, if only we could see > it? > > Or will the outcome be more serious, that even if Voldy is dead, > the WW is in unstoppable decline, unable to facing up to its rotten > ethics and sagging morality ? JKR has said that there never will be > a rapprochement between the WW and RL - is this bad news for the > WW? What is its future in the 21st century? Siriusly Snapey Susan: Yes, I understand your interest in broadening the scope of the discussion to include more than just what will become of Harry. I think it's OKAY, though, for people to choose to focus on any one aspect of the outcome, too, if they want--even if their preference is for sweetness & light. Disagreeing about things is a big part of what keeps discussion moving along here; hopefully no one's views are actually put down or scoffed at, just challenged--or ignored if the reader doesn't find them worthy of... something or other. One other comment on the sweetness & light stuff before I move on to where you hoped to move the discussion. I keep coming back to the fact that JKR's favorite children's book is The Little White Horse. Talk about sweetness and light! That book's ending is nothing BUT fluffy bunnies and a (group) ride into the sunset! Realistic it is not; filled with darkness it is not. JKR has stated that she hadn't considered she was writing children's books, so I'm NOT making that parallel. JKR's books are different in content & style from TLWH, too, but I do wonder if her fondness for the book says something about her fondness for a measure of happiness in the end? Anyway, given what JKR has been introducing in terms of "issues" and societal ills and problems with the WW's governing structure & its mechanism for justice *and* the growing darkness that you've alluded to, I'm sure you're right that she will do much more with these issues before the end. Will evil be gone from the WW? Not in my view. Will the MoM be totally whipped into shape and turn blind eyes no more? Not in my view. Will all prejudice miraculously disappear just because Voldy's gone? Not in my view. What I could see JKR doing is having a larger body of witches & wizards than before VoldyWar2 come to the realization that things must change and begin work on that. Working to improve relationships with other magical creatures, to restructure the justice system or at least work to see that it becomes more consistent in practice, that kind of thing. But I don't see instant, massive progress in these areas. Kind of like the Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" incident in the U.S. As a nation we in the US have been working on issues of discrimination and prejudice and unfairness for a long, long time and still have miles to go and many unanswered questions. I would see hope for change in Voldy's defeat but with it also being a long process fraught with conflict & setbacks. But will JKR address it? I think for certain, even though much would have to be left up in the air. Since book one these issues have been present, and that whole fountain in the MoM implies, to me, that they're not going away. Siriusly Snapey Susan...who still thinks Harry will live and, even if he loses his powers, will remain in the WW. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu May 13 13:56:02 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 08:56:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: This may be an old subject but, Who owns the Riddle House? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98209 * Gina's reply: > Who would want to live in the house of the person that killed > their parents? Not to say you theory is wrong, but if it was Dumbledore I > would lean more to thinking it was so he could put his portrait spies to > work. I think LV would know if Dumbledore bought it though so I would think > Malfoy before DD. > > What about Fudge? I don't trust him at all and "tax reasons" sounds > much more like an answer he would give and he does think himself a business > man... Mario responds: Thank you, I also thought of Lucius, and Dumbledore, but I had not seen any reference in the archives. But, I think that Malfoy bought the house, and now that the gardener is dead, he gave it back to Voldemort and they are using it as headquarters for Voldemort and his death-eaters. It can very well be disguised using muggle-repellant charms, just as Hogwart is and hidden from wizards as 12 Grimauld Place is. Malfoy surely bought it to demonstrate to Voldemort (upon his return) that he always remained faithful, and that he was planning for his return, despite the fact that he (Lucius) surely denied ever working with Voldemort. Makes any sense? Gina again: * Yes, that part makes LOTS of sense. I think Lucius is a cowardly bully like Draco -the apple doesn't fall far you know! I doubt it had anything to do with the gardener though because LV was already there and killed him. If Lucius does own it then did LV know that before or after he got there? This is the only part that makes me think someone on the good side owns it. When the DEs came in GoF, LV seemed like that was the first he had seen or heard from Malfoy. I think maybe LV thought the house was just empty and set up camp, but maybe someone else bought it and placed spy equipment there. * * If it was Malfoy I think you hit the nail on the head - that would be a great way for him to say he remained loyal so that works for me, but if it is not him I think it is someone on the other side and who it could be is very puzzling to me. * * Gina ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From squeakinby at tds.net Thu May 13 14:57:00 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 09:57:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A38CBC.9090607@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98210 delwynmarch wrote: So who's to say > which of the boys got the worst deal ? Certainly suffering such as in the death camps was terrible, horrific and unimaginable. However, the tenets of Judaism will say that life is precious, each moment is incredibly valuable and even suffering can be transformed for the good. > So I'm not sure which would be worse, whether Harry dies or lives. As a Jew I can say it's better to be alive in order to have the possibility of finding joy and service to others. So I'd say dying is always the lesser choice. Jem From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 13 14:01:05 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:01:05 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: Del: > And I'm not even mentioning the sheer *pain* Harry would have to > live with, if he were to lose Ron. I don't like Harry that much, but > I can't wish *that* on him. > I remember reading a series of books about 2 teenage friends when I > was young. In the last book, they get involved in World War 2, one > of them dies and the other is sent prisoner into German camps. I > could never decide, and still can't, which one got the worst deal. > Eric, the dead one, dies young and still full of innocence, he will > never learn about the horrors of WW2, he will never have to deal > with the torture and death of loved ones, and so on. But he will > never love and be married, he will never have kids, he will never > experience the joy of his country being liberated. Christian, on the > other hand, will have to survive the camps, and if he does he will > have to live through the tough demands of reconstructing a wrecked > country. But maybe, if he gets through, he will know love and > happiness again. But then again maybe he won't, maybe he will be too > hurt and destroyed to ever enjoy happiness again. So who's to say > which of the boys got the worst deal ? > So I'm not sure which would be worse, whether Harry dies or lives. Geoff: An interesting real-life parallel to the story you mention is that of Tolkien who had formed a very close friendship with three other students at Oxford just prior to the First World War. During that war, two of them were killed in action and Tolkien's sometimes pessimistic outlook heightened but their loss was one factor which propelled him into starting "The Book of Lost Tales" which eventually evolved into "The Silmarillion". But his letters and comments reveal the pain he felt over the loss of loved ones and the futility of war - something Harry is beginning to realise also. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 13 14:35:28 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:35:28 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape and Respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98212 Alla: > > Well, yes, but that if we all accept that Hogwarts is the exact prototype of military school, which I for myself cannot accept yet. Who knows, maybe when in book 6 Hogwarts becomes a military center for anti-Voldie resistance , I will change my mind.<< The technology of command and control, like many others, was developed for military purposes, and until very recently civilian management followed military models anyway, because that was where most people got their management experience. But Hogwarts is no theme park. Dumbledore is the commander of a fortress. Like every working castle Hogwarts is first of all a military installation. I do not think those suits of armor are entirely for show, and I will be highly disappointed if they never come to life and march in defense of their keep. Regardless of whether you think of Dumbledore as Headmaster or commander-in-chief, there is still a clear chain of command. Snape's authority over Harry derives from Dumbledore. If Dumbledore allowed Harry to show disrespect for Snape, he would not only weaken Snape's authority, he would undermine his own. And that would have dreadful consequences for Harry. Most of us need to know where we fit in the hierarchy to feel secure. And while it would be nice if everyone above us would treat us as they would wish to be treated, it is important to learn that it cannot always be so. Otherwise we, like young Draco, will develop a very skewed notion of what fair treatment is. But I think Dumbledore has a more personal reason for correcting Harry. Just as Hagrid gets upset when someone insults Dumbledore, Dumbledore doesn't like hearing people insult Snape. It's worth noting that he doesn't like it when Snape insults Harry either, and always interrupts Snape when he hears the start of an anti-Harry tirade. Pippin From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu May 13 10:16:00 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 10:16:00 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore hiding.../apparating in Hogwarts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98213 > Caesian: > OotP O.W.L.S. 711 > 'Now, I haven't heard from Dumbledore lately!' she [Madam > Marchbanks] added, peering > > around the hall as though hopeful he might suddenly emerge from a > broom cupboard. 'No > > idea where he is, I suppose?' > > 'None at all,' said Umbridge ... 'But I daresay the Ministry of > Magic will > > track him down > > soon enough ...' > > 'I doubt it,' shouted tiny Professor Marchbanks,' not if > Dumbledore doesn't want to be > > found!' > Finwitch: We KNOW - ever since book #1, that Dumbledore is able of making himself invisible *without a cloak*. Harry knows this, and I believe that Professor Marchbanks does, too. Maybe she even noticed an invisible person there (an item bent as if someone was leaning onto it or just *feeling* that someone's watching) or at least doubted it. Marchbanks was also one who said: 'did things with a wand I had never seen before' (just how old IS she, if it's true that *she* graded Albus Dumbledore's OWLs and NEWTs?! Has she, perhaps, a connection to N. Flamel and taken a little of his Life Elixir?) Anyway, I think that Dumbledore may have been in his office, considering how Umbridge couldn't get there! (Dumbledore changed the password at some point, I suppose...) Oh, and just as many times as Hermione says that Hogwarts: a History claims you cannot apparate or disapparate into/from Hogwarts - but does that necessarily include apparating *within* Hogwarts, as long as you don't leave the grounds? (I see the anti-apparating as a shield that can't be passed by apparating - it doesn't seem to prevent portkeys or floo, anyway). I'd suspect that if one needs to learn how to apparate, one could do it within the Room of Requirement? Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu May 13 10:30:06 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 10:30:06 -0000 Subject: Dobby -- Former Potter House Elf? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98214 > > Leb wrote: > > > > 3. When Dobby has warned the DA that Umbridge is on her way and > the members are all scattering while Dobby is "punishing" himself for > warning them, Harry grabs him up and says, "Dobby -- this is an > order -- get back down to the kitchen with the other elves, and if > she asks you whether you warned me, lie and say no!" said > Harry. "And I forbid you to hurt yourself!" he added, dropping the > elf as he made it over the threshold at last and slamming the door > behind him. "Thank you Harry Potter!" squeaked Dobby, and he > streaked off. (ch 27). Now, I am of the opinion that Dobby at one > time was the Potter house elf before he was relocated to the Malfoys > after James & Lily died. Am I way off base and trying to read too > much into this scene or is Dobby taking a direct order from Harry as > if Harry were Dobby's master? I've read this book countless times > now and this bit just really jumped out at me this time. Finwitch: I considered Dobby acting as if he were Harry's elf ever since I read GoF and how Winky acted towards Crouch Sr. Dobby's true loyalty has always been to Harry - (and he likes clothes because he can serve Harry more as a free elf, than if he were bound, because Harry's underage and living in a Muggle House.) It's a bit like Kreacher - (Hermione was right to make the parallel) - Kreacher was - by enchantment of his kind - bound to obey any direct order Sirius gave him, but he also did things Sirius didn't LIKE (as much as he possibly could, I take it), definately not being truly loyal... I don't know how Dobby would have ended up at Malfoys, but I do believe Dobby was a Potter house-elf. Or, another possibility: Dobby was a Black-house-elf, who was told to join Narcissa upon her marriage, even though Dobby preferred Sirius? Dobby would have met James Potter with Sirius, visited him often in the Potter house after Sirius left home, probably even been there when Sirius was made Harry's godfather and guardian... -- Finwitch From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 13 15:12:31 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:12:31 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions/oh no fluffy bunnies again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Carolyn: > Excellent. So, Harry is incapacitated and shuffled off somewhere like Bilbo..and the story moves on. Or, he's dead. Same thing really from a plot development angle. I am wondering what flavour we will be left with at the end. Will we be left with the impression that the WW continues on in its secret way beneath our feet, round the corner, if only we could see it? > > Or will the outcome be more serious, that even if Voldy is dead, the WW is in unstoppable decline, unable to facing up to its rotten ethics and sagging morality ? JKR has said that there never will be a rapprochement between the WW and RL - is this bad news for the WW ? < I think we've seen a glimpse of what's to come: "Harry saw the tiny gold statues of the house-elf and the goblin leading a stunned Cornelius Fudge forward." OOP- ch 36 The good and the magical will survive, but wizarding supremacy will be on its way out. I may be overly influenced by Tolkien, but I see the wizards, like Tolkien's elves, facing a choice between accepting the rule of evil or their own inevitable decline. Who knows, in a few hundred years, it may be students with human blood who are the minority at Hogwarts. Pippin From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu May 13 11:53:56 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 11:53:56 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98216 > "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I disagree. Among equals, respect is earned, but not in a > hierarchical situation, such as a school. It's the same as being in > the army. A person can privately think whatever they want about > their superior, but the superior rank automatically entitles one to > outwardly respectful behaviour. Harry and Snape aren't equals - > Harry is a child and a student. {snipped} > ------------------------------- > Arya: > While actions/words/impressions are all valid reasons for one to earn > respect, they are also valid reasons for one to LOSE respect. Snape > has done more than enough over the years (his few good actions and > vouching from CC barely puts old Severus up on even ground IMO) for > Harry to withdraw his respect. Finwitch: Yes, I'd say Snape has LOST respect to all Gryffindor students. As I see it, Snape behaves like a reckless teenager with powers, not like a responsible adult. In fact, I view Snape's behaviour as more immature than Harry's. It's like he's never grown from the days he was in school, and THAT is why I do not consider him as respectable. Army also has a requirement of obedience - but, particularly with Harry Potter-world, where there is a thing like Imperius Curse - well, taking orders from people just because they were born earlier, or just because a third party put them in place where they SHOULD be teaching you - well, it disables you from resisting Imperius Curse. And using those 'honorific?' words CAN be used to show disrespect as well. (Fred&George are the experts on doing that!) Also, do you consider Gilderoy Lockhart as respectable just because he was a professor? Or Dolores Umbridge for that matter? And I don't think Harry's being disrespectful or rude to Snape - he's not calling him 'Snivellus', is he? Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu May 13 12:28:24 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:28:24 -0000 Subject: The Map (Blocked Passage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98217 "Chelle": > > And concerning the twins: they still had 2 years left at the school, > > wouldn't they want the map? Why did they use the other passage > > rather than the one to the Candy Store? Where did it end? > Finwitch: I'd guess, Zonko's prank store! Where else would these two pranksters MOST want to go? So, um, they're blocked from getting to Zonko's; They have their Owls; they want to start their own prank-shop; Yes- I think they simply decided it was time to give the map ahead. (and besides, they have a good heart - they wanted to grant Harry the opportunity he didn't have due to having lost his parents). Besides, maybe they discussed with the map and Wormtail,Moony,Padfoot&Prongs *told* them to give it ahead to Harry... (and it's even possible that Fred&George made a copy of their own! Not that they'd tell Harry that, of course). > bboy_mn: > > You forgot one other significant mention of the Passageway Behind the > Mirror on the Fourth Floor. Sirius mentions it to Harry when Harry is > trying to find a place to hold the DA meetings. > > I've always had a feeling that there was or would eventually be > something significant about the passageway. Finwitch: Maybe, maybe not. We do know it was large (considering Sirius suggested it for DA), and that Fred&George say it's all caved in. I think that it'd take quite a lot to get something that large to get 'caved in' - what happened to it? Is that event somehow keyed to why the Twins stopped using it? Were they, perhaps, on their way when the roof fell in? I wonder, did it have anything to do with how, on the passageway to Chamber of Secrets, roof falls in and blocks both Ron and Lockhart from it! > bboy_mn: > Too many mysteries and only two books left. Finwitch: Yes - but they get bigger and bigger - and although all can't be revealed, there's always fanfic! (though I hope Rowling will publish her notes after the 7th book!) Finwitch From cquinn at mn.rr.com Thu May 13 14:10:57 2004 From: cquinn at mn.rr.com (twobeaglegirl) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:10:57 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98218 > vmonte wrote : > > I do, however, believe that Harry's greatest gift is his ability > > to love and his compassion for others. This gift is probably > > inherited from his mother, and although it has nothing to do > > with magic, it is more powerful than any magic. > > Del replies : > Even after all that time, even after reading so many posts about > it, I still don't see it, I still don't see that Harry has any more > love or compassion than any average kid. Harry has a lot of qualities, > courage and perseverance for example, but he doesn't strike me as > either particularly loving or exceptionnally compassionate. Can > someone explain that to me yet again :-) ? 2beagles: I agree with Del. In fact, I think that Harry is the LEAST compassionate of the trio. This was first evident in SS when he allowed Ron to sacrifice himself in the chess game so that Harry and Hermione could go on. Hermione had the instinct to go and help Ron, but Harry stopped her (albeit, out of necessity). Ron could have been dead for all he knew. Also, Harry is constantly feeling sorry for himself and lashing out at his friends because of it. He was also angry when H & R became Prefects. That is not to say that he didn't care about his friends, but sometimes he is so caught up in his own problems, that he can't see that he is not the only troubled person in the WW. His vendetta to avenge his parents' murder is what drives him, not love or compassion. In transferring "pure love" to Harry through the charm, I don't think that Lily gave him the ability to love, just the protection. Sorry to all of you Harry lovers. I think Harry is a great person and is out for the greater good, but I do not see compassion for others as his greatest strength either. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 14:15:14 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:15:14 -0000 Subject: Neville's powers (was RE: Will Harry loose his powers?) In-Reply-To: <20040512212124.71444.qmail@web50009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98219 Melanie wrote: > The truth is it's not his fault that he is slow, by > all accounts he probably naturally had a lot of magical talent. It > is not directly stated but somewhat implied that his forgetfullness > is the result of very powerful memory charms that were preformed on > him as a little child. > But even if his forgetfulness and need to work hard isn't from a > memory charm the truth is there are plenty of reasons why things > would come harder to some people and not others. > I personally think his Grandmother is extremely hard on him, and > probably doesn't know what magic he may have possessed as child, she > didn't take care of him completely until he was over a year old. I think it is implied somewhere that Neville's struggles are related to his early childhood and what happened to his parents. I keep thinking about the part in OoP (don't have the book in front of me) where we and the gang see Neville and his Gram visiting Neville's parents. Now let's think about this. His parents were obviously Aurors, and given that, they must have been quite powerful wizards. Seeing what has happened to his powerful wizard parents as a result of their run-in with LV would be very disturbing, particularly when he obviously visits them on a regular basis. Now when I was a very small child, I truly saw my parents as invincible, all powerful, super-human, etc. Of course, as I grew up, I got to find out that they were just normal people, that not all of their stories were entirely true, etc. What I'm saying re: Neville is that he never got the opportunity to discover that for himself. They were taken away from him at an extremely early age, and unlike Harry, he has to see his parents' suffering and the staggering cruelty of LV and the DE's on a regular basis, and starting at a very young age...probably way before he was capable of understanding exactly what happened to them. Anyways, I don't see him putting much stock into magical abilities while he's growing up. I mean, magic didn't help save his parents. He's probably rather afraid of magic in a way because it let his parents down so horribly. And he's definitely insecure about his own abilities. If his grown Auror parents couldn't cut it (so to speak) then what contribution to magic and the WW could he see himself making, especially as a child, and in particular, one who has no parents to guide him? And Gram, I agree, is hard on Neville, though I'm sure she thinks she needs to be, but she's proud of Neville's parents because of their noble fight and their effort, despite their obvious loss, and I think that she almost resents the fact that Neville seems ashamed of them because of what they've become instead of recognizing and honoring them for their sacrifice. I'd also like to add the whole generation gap here. My Gram had a much harder life than me, her values were quite different, etc. Just for starters, she lived through two WWs! She had to be tough. And this is completely ignoring all the modern conveniences that have sprung up in her lifetime, like say an actual washing machine, etc. Ok, so Gram seems harsh but feels she has to be to prepare Neville. And Neville, because of his parents and because of his Gram pushing him all the time, turns out to be quite scatterbrained and insecure. And Melanie, you're right, we don't know exactly what happened in Neville's younger years, specifically why it was a toss-up between Neville and Harry re: the prophecy (aside from his birthday). Susan (who's proud of Neville's accomplishments and bravery in OoP). From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 15:32:06 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:32:06 -0000 Subject: Q's about house-elves - Apparation vs Transfer Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98220 Rhonda (SinfulSnape at a...) wrote: > > Regarding House Elves, and maybe this has been asked before, but > > if there is no apparating allowed within Hogwart's school grounds, > > how can the house elves do it? Anyone know? Thanks! bboy_mn: > That's because Dobby didn't Apparate. Apparation is a form of wizard > magic, Dobby used a completely different and unique form of ELF > magic to accomplish the same thing. > > Speculation: Elves are experts in what I call Transfer Charms; > moving things from one location to another. Example; at every meal > they transfer a substantial amount of food up from the kitchen to the > House Tables in the Great Hall. > > So, Elf teleportation in not Apparation, but a variation of the > Transfer Charm. Dobby didn't Apparate, he merely transferred himself > to a new location. > Actually, JKR said in an interview that Dobby was able to 'apparate' > because, in essense, elf magic is different than wizard magic. That makes Hogwarts vulnerable then, doesn't it? I wonder if they can "transfer" themselves on and off the property completely, or if it's just the Hogwarts house elves who can transfer themselves around the property, not on and off it. Like all the other magical creatures who are now preparing to choose sides (giants, dementors, etc.,) maybe we'll see house-elves, freed or no, choosing whose side they wish to defend. Surely JKR won't have Hermione's efforts with SPEW just end with Kreacher's betrayal of Sirius. Susan ;-) From probono at rapidnet.com Thu May 13 16:05:45 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:05:45 -0000 Subject: The Map (Blocked Passage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98221 > Finwitch: > > Maybe, maybe not. We do know it was large (considering Sirius > suggested it for DA), and that Fred&George say it's all caved in. I > think that it'd take quite a lot to get something that large to > get 'caved in' - what happened to it? Is that event somehow keyed to > why the Twins stopped using it? Were they, perhaps, on their way when > the roof fell in? > > I wonder, did it have anything to do with how, on the passageway to > Chamber of Secrets, roof falls in and blocks both Ron and Lockhart > from it! Probono: I just always assumed that these 2 passages were connected somehow and both led to the chamber. After the collapse there is another door that Harry has to get through using parseltongue. Fred and George wouldn't be able to get into the chamber or probably even recognize the solid wall as a door to a chamber. I just figured the other passage runs past the chamber and onto Hogsmeade. From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu May 13 16:13:03 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:13:03 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98222 A small attempt to assuage some of Del's angst, in lieu of chicken soup which would probably have been a better remedy: > Vmonte wrote : > > His flying skills, and his patronus stag, seem more like they are > > inherited from his father. > > Del replies : > But the worst part is the whole stag business. Unless Harry saw his > father transform into a stag as a baby, there's no way he could have > known, even unconsciouly, how important the stag symbol was for him. > Are we then supposed to believe in some mystical link between father > and son ? Annemehr: Well, I went to look up the symbolism linked to stags, to see how a stag might naturally have been both James' avatar and the symbol of Harry's protection, and I found this: --------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.gryphonsmoon.com/Reference/BeastSymbol/BeastSymbol.htm Stag- Stags never become feverish, and eating a Stag's marrow will cure a fever. Some say that eating venison will ensure immortality. When a Stag become ill, he kills a serpent and eats it, because the poison is healing to them. Burning a stag's horn will keep snakes away. --------------------------------------------------------------- Just taking this symbolism and running with it for a moment: If Harry were to be a stag animagus, it would look like either Harry or Voldemort could find what they wanted by eating (or just defeating?) the other: immortality for Voldemort, and healing for Harry. Not to mention, you could relate "eating a stag's marrow" with taking Harry's blood for a reembodiment potion if you liked. But JKR says Harry will not have time to become an animagus, and LV's murder of James doesn't seem to have done him any good (unles he would have had to literally eat James, or unless the murder was part of what helped him survive the AK rebound). Could this symbolism indeed refer to Harry, and we're just supposed to relate the stag to him via his Patronus? Doesn't really answer your question, though, sorry. Still, Harry never knew what his patronus would be until he saw it. Could you believe that it was never any knowledge of Harry's, but the mere *fact* that James was Harry's protector, that magically formed the Patronus? Dumbledore said Harry found James within him. Even though Harry didn't know James' animagus form, that form was nonetheless the symbol of the man who gave Harry many of his own traits and fathered him for 15 months. > vmonte wrote : > > I do, however, believe that Harry's greatest gift is his ability > > to love and his compassion for others. This gift is probably > > inherited from his mother, and although it has nothing to do with > > magic, it is more powerful than any magic. > > Del replies : > Even after all that time, even after reading so many posts about it, > I still don't see it, I still don't see that Harry has any more love > or compassion than any average kid. Harry has a lot of qualities, > courage and perseverance for example, but he doesn't strike me as > either particularly loving or exceptionnally compassionate. Can > someone explain that to me yet again :-) ? Annemehr: I'll give it a shot, though I might veer off into a different direction... There is something to say for him in how *unhesitatingly* he runs off to "save people." In the day-to-day little things, you don't see anything special from him, but when he knows someone, or everyone, is in great danger, he wants to help with very little thought for his own safety. I also have in mind that he has some growing to do. As he increases in his general understanding of people, more of his natural compassion may show through. For the purpose of the story, though, he doesn't actually need to be the most loving person in the world to defeat Voldemort, because there are other things unrelated to his own virtue that single him out and make him special. Assuming that love is going to be part of what defeats Voldemort, here is what I consider to be at least a partial list of what makes Harry the "one." 1)His own love, heart, and courage -- if not exceptional, then abundant enough. 2)Opportunity: LV is after him; the two are going to face each other no matter what Harry, or Dumbledore, do. 3)The scar connection: though we don't completely understand it, we can tell it's a conduit for power between them, and that each can make use of it, and that it puts them in a unique relationship. Harry is my personal favorite character, so maybe I see him in a better light than you do. Still, because of 2) and 3) above, I don't see the need for him to be more loving than anyone else for the story to work. Because of his actions when the chips are down, I see enough love in him to justify readers' and Dumbledore's assessments of him. It doesn't bother me at all that many people may also show the level of loving that we've seen from Harry so far. Not sure how well I did here... I hope you feel better soon! Annemehr who thinks neither dying nor living in misery are the worst outcome -- that distinction is reserved for turning evil From jlaming426 at aol.com Thu May 13 16:25:28 2004 From: jlaming426 at aol.com (jimlaming) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:25:28 -0000 Subject: Mr. Cornelius Oswald Fudge - very long - (was: Over Kill with Dementors) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98223 Kneasy Wrote: The case for an ESE!Fudge is right there, its like its *too* obvious. (now I keep thinking about how odd it is that the dementers not only attacked Harry at the end ofPoA but tried to perform the "kiss" on him, even though Sirius was lying feet away). Rob Now: I have been preching this from the begining. The Dementors are still loyal to Voldemort and are working in his interest and I deduced that since this is the case, the person in control of them is also a follower of Voldemort.There is no evidence that he Fudge was not one of the original DE.Actually there is good evidence that he is a DE.Him and his buddy Umbridge do everything in their power to try and ruin Harry, even making attempts on his life. The evidence is out there and all you have to do is look through Fudges actions. (Actions will show the true motives of a character). If you think that I may be off the wall, just think about the Dementors giving a kiss to Crouch Jr. shortly after he was discovered.Before DD got to ask him any questions, the Dementors swooped in and Killed/ Kissed him.Why, because they are working for Voldemort and they needed to silence a witness.If this is not enough for you also think about how it is possible that the only other three that escaped Azcaban where notorious DE.Interesting. The only other to escape was Serius, because everyone thought he was behind the deaths of the Potters and that he would want to kill Harry. Jim adds his thoughts and questions: I too am toying with the idea of ESE!Fudge. So I shall do what I enjoy doing most Ask Questions. This ended up much longer than I meant it to when I started sorry. First of all, what is Fudge's real role in this story? Is he an unwitting bumbler or a devious manipulator. Why does Fudge want to discredited, harm or even eliminated Harry? What does Fudge have to gain? Is there anyone else within the MOM that wants to hurt Harry? Next, if Fudge has a reason to hurt Harry, then why hasn't he done so already? (Opportunity, Dumbledoor's protections, witnesses, ???) What interactions has Fudge had with Harry? Are there hints that Fudge wants to harm Harry? What events could Fudge have had the power to influence and thus attempt to hurt or discredit Harry? Is Fudge really stupid enough to think that scaring Harry into silence will enhance his status? Is he capable of the deceit and evil needed to kill Harry? I am soliciting help from the collective brain. I am working on this line of thought (so far): Fudge is, as DD says, in love with his office and is acting to maintain his own status. He is exactly what he seems to be: a blustering, pompous politician, looking out for his own power and position. Fudge's every action can be interpreted to be in his self- interest. In COS, we are introduced to Fudge when he "arrests" Hagrid so that he can be seen as "doing something" during the crisis. I think Malfoy comments, at one point, that Fudge must be keeping the attacks out of the Daily Prophet to prevent negative publicity. In POA, Fudge orders the Dementors to Hogwarts, in the name of searching for Sirius, and to protect Harry. He is seen to be protecting Harry when doing so looks good in the WW. When Sirius is captured, he calls in the Dementors to administer the "Kiss" without the due process of law. We again see his lack of regard for the law and the rights of the people. He is foiled in the attempt to silence Sirius and Sirius inexplicably escapes. I feel like he is getting desperate to contain the PR damage. I think he ordered the "Kiss" for the newly discovered Barty Jr. to put a damper on the publicity of Voldie being about and active. At the end GoF, when Harry reports the physical return of Voldie and the activation of the DE, he upsets the Status Quo, and Fudge uses whatever means he can suppress that information. Fudge covers up (fails to investigate) Cedric's death, and lays down the battle lines to DD. This didn't happen. Voldie isn't back. Harry is a just seeking attention. In OOP, we see Fudge slandering DD and Harry in the puppet press, the Daily Prophet and subverting the Wizarding Judicial system to protect his position and discredit DD and Harry. There is a co-conspirator introduced here, Delores Jane Umbridge or as I like to refer to her, Toad Face. I think Toad Face is also acting out of love of power. (perhaps in addition to a love of Fudge?) She believes her status depends on Fudge and the Status Quo, and she is acting as a direct extension of Fudge. However, She does display evil intent and when she sent the Dementors to Magnolia Crescent, I think she intended to kill Harry. Her hunger for power and her cruelty are clearly demonstrated throughout OOP. Both Fudge and Unbridge manipulate the facts, provide disinformation and oppress basic freedoms. When Umbridge attempts to arrest Hagrid, the unwarranted use of brutal force is unleashed on McGonagall. It seems that each oppressive step they take, leads to further resistance and then further suppressive acts. Fudge and Toad Face have traveled a very long way down the road of Dictatorship. I am not sure but that Fudge must face a very drastic realignment such as Toad Face experienced with the Centaurs. And I don't think that having Voldie show up in the lobby of the MOM is going to be enough of a shock to change his ways. We shall see Other related thoughts and questions: Is Fudge working directly in Voldie's service. Is he working to help Voldie's return and the eventual victory over the WW from within the MOM. Is Fudge acting on his own or under the Imperious Curse? Is there a way to detect the imperious curse? Does it have to be reinforced from time to time? Who do we know, that is evil, who visits the MOM and has repeated access to Fudge? (Malfoy, Umbridge, ???) Umbridge seems to be the fanatical type. I don't see her as the source of the dark magic, rather she acts as a misguided pawn that thinks the "cause" justifies the means. In the early books Fudge "appears" to be protecting Harry. When the Knight Bus drops Harry off at the Leaky Cauldron, could Fudge have been waiting there to do harm to Harry? Because there are witnesses, he continues with the appearance of protection. The Dementors seem to know where Harry is at times and focus on him (above others) when they encounter him. Under the Fudge Administration Aurors seem prohibited from arresting prominent members of wizard society no matter how dark their connections. Later they seem to be used to punish those who believed DD's warning of Voldie's return. Voldie would benefit greatly from having a highly placed mole deep inside the MOM. While scanning a number of articles about Fudge I came across this tidbit: There was a pope named Saint Cornelius, whose reign was marked by the controversy over those who under persecution had renounced Christianity. Cornelius's leniency toward this group drew the support of the bishop of Carthage, St. Cyprian, but aroused the opposition of the Roman priest Novatian. Cornelius was exiled, then martyred in 253. He was succeeded by a bishop named Lucius. (that's worth a shiver up your spine!) From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu May 13 16:34:25 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:34:25 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions/oh no fluffy bunnies again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98224 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: I do wonder if her fondness for the book [The Little White Horse] says something about her fondness for a measure of happiness in the end? I would see hope for change in Voldy's defeat but with it also being a long process fraught with conflict & setbacks. But will JKR address it? I think for certain, even though much would have to be left up in the air. Since book one these issues have been present, and that whole fountain in the MoM implies, to me, that they're not going away. Kneasy wrote: But just what is JKR's view? Well, there are hints, straws in the wind. She has no compunction in killing her characters even though it may distress both herself and the readers; there will be no reconciliation between Muggledom and the WW (continued estrangement is more likely to encourage pureblood attitudes); Harry's sufferings intensify book by book (an ominous, possibly indicative trend); and perhaps most significant of all - JKR does not believe in magic. This last predicates against a fluffy-bunny ending, IMO. There is no magic spell, no waving of wands, no deus ex machina, no simple solution to all the ills of the WW and any of the less than benevolent characters in it. Carolyn responds: I was browsing the archives recently and came across much intelligent discussion of what makes a great book, something that lives down the ages. As any publisher knows, there is no recipe, but a recurring theme were books that gave up something new as the reader grew older. Many do not stand this test of personal time - their themes and treatment become too simplistic as you age and acquire possibly too much experience of the world. They become faded flowers. Others both retain their original qualities and reveal new depths the more often you come back to them. I hope she can pull this off, and that the fascination continues beyond the simple resolution of the puzzle at the centre of the series. If the answer to it all just begs even more questions, especially about the actions and motives of the central characters, then she really might have created an enduring classic. I also suspect that we won't remain engaged unless we are shocked and hurt by aspects of the ending, and the events leading up to it. If we eternally have to ask 'why?', then its looking promisingly realistic. She's got a good track record so far in surprising us, and taking a tough line, so I'm hopeful. I mean, would anyone believe it if that strongroom at the MoM is finally blown open in the last chapter, splattering everyone with Love, and people like Snape starting hugging innocent passers-by? Nah, doesn't bear thinking about... From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu May 13 16:49:00 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:49:00 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions/oh no fluffy bunnies again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98225 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" > wrote: > > > Carolyn: >> > > > Or will the outcome be more serious, that even if Voldy is dead, > the WW is in unstoppable decline, unable to face up to its > rotten ethics and sagging morality ? JKR has said that there > never will be a rapprochement between the WW and RL - is this > bad news for the WW ? < > Pippin: > Who knows, in a few hundred years, it may be students with > human blood who are the minority at Hogwarts. > Carolyn: Now this would be a very contemporary theme to leave us with, not least for the startling potential it offers the SHIPpers amongst you . From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu May 13 16:54:24 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:54:24 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > Army also has a requirement of obedience - but, particularly with > Harry Potter-world, where there is a thing like Imperius Curse - > well, taking orders from people just because they were born earlier, > or just because a third party put them in place where they SHOULD be > teaching you - well, it disables you from resisting Imperius Curse. Could you explain that a bit, please? Are you saying that being polite hinders a person from being able to resist the Imperius Curse? > > And using those 'honorific?' words CAN be used to show disrespect as > well. (Fred&George are the experts on doing that!) Fred and George are not an example that is available for Harry to follow. They're fun, but they're anarchists, and can only be tolerated in small doses. Their removal from Hogwarts shows the limits of their method - either all order would collapse, or they would be ejected from the community, and obviously any community that wants to preserve itself will opt for the latter course. Fred and George are outsiders by the end of the story - at least, as far as the Hogwarts-centered part of the story is concerned. I'm sure they'll continue to have a role in the books, and will be part of the struggle against Voldemort, but as a support for Harry while at Hogwarts, they're gone. > > Also, do you consider Gilderoy Lockhart as respectable just because > he was a professor? Or Dolores Umbridge for that matter? Why ask me? Why not ask someone who had to deal with them, like Snape? It's perfectly clear that he does not respect either Lockhart or Umbridge, but unlike Harry, he is obedient to the rules of Hogwarts, and he shows them outward respect. (And with Snape's personality, that must require heroic effort.) And in the end, which tactic is better? What does Harry accomplish by all his theatrical demonstrations of disdain? He sabotages his own occlumency lessons with Snape. He gets his hand sliced up for detention with Umbridge. He draws attention to himself at every turn, so that he and his friends have to sneak around and elude hostile scrutiny. By contrast, Snape and the rest of the teachers carry out a completely effective campaign to tie up and neutralize Umbridge while maintaining a respectful and even agreeable facade. > > And I don't think Harry's being disrespectful or rude to Snape - he's > not calling him 'Snivellus', is he? > It's only a question of degree. If he isn't being disrespectful, then why is Dumbledore always correcting him? Wanda From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 13 17:31:48 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 17:31:48 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98227 > Bookworm: > Jumping in where SSS left off --- > IIRC, the potion makes Lupin sleepy so that he just curls up for a nap until he transforms back. That would be a different reaction than being "less dangerous" with his friends. If he had secretly taken the potion that night, I would think Sirius would notice a difference. Pippin: who doesn't want Bookworm to think her post was ignored--- Fascinating! Are you suggesting that Lupin's constant tiredness is an aftereffect of the potion rather than the werewolf transformation itself? That would be highly realistic--many powerful medicines have debilitating side effects--and it would give Lupin a subconscious reason to avoid taking it. I'm not sure whether canon really supports this though. In decoding Lupinspeak, I adopt a sternly Morporkian* disregard for allusion, metaphor and idiom. Of course this is exactly what we are all taught *not* to do when reading fiction. But only when Lupin's words have been rendered into plaintext can we safely procede to apply the tools of the literary detective and figure out What It All Means. Lupin says, "I am able to curl up in my office, a harmless wolf, and wait for the moon to wane again." Now, this sentence creates a vivid word picture for me. I don't need to imagine my family dog (a "harmless wolf") curled up in my office--he's right by my feet at this moment. And like all dogs he sleeps most of the time, about eighteen hours a day. But if we disregard that mental image, and look at the rest of the sentence a couple of things stand out. The slightly awkward phrasing "I am able to"--why not just say "I can"? But the word 'able' points us back to Dumbledore's advice in Book Two:"It is our choices, far more than our abilities..." Lupin has the ability to curl up and be harmless, but that does not mean he will choose to do so. The uncertain time frame of Lupin's transformations: "and wait for the moon to wane again." When exactly does the werewolf transformation wear off? Astronomy is no help if I understand what Shaun's been telling us (thank you, Shaun!) Astronomically, the moon is full only for an instant and begins to wane at once. Lupin will not transform before the full moon is 'up' according to Rowling, but Lupin's absences all take place *in the daytime*. He misses a DADA class Friday and the Quidditch game the next morning, and then he's absent from the Christmas feast "at lunchtime" though of course lunch may be scheduled early on Christmas Day. We don't know what time his transformation ended the day after the Shrieking Shack but we do know that it's after noon when Harry speaks to him in the DADA office. Now if Lupin was in wolf form until noon, that puts Snape's announcement to the Slytherins in a very different light, doesn't it? There are no classes to keep them occupied, the House Cup is already lost, Slytherins have a tendency to break rules anyway, and they may not believe that there's a werewolf loose on the grounds without corroborating evidence. Pippin *Readers of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series will be familiar with the city of Ankh-Morpork, whose citizens are appallingly literal-minded. From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu May 13 17:41:04 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 17:41:04 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98228 Del replies : Even after all that time, even after reading so many posts about it, I still don't see it, I still don't see that Harry has any more love or compassion than any average kid. 2beagles: I agree with Del. In fact, I think that Harry is the LEAST compassionate of the trio. This was first evident in SS when he allowed Ron to sacrifice himself in the chess game so that Harry and Hermione could go on. Hermione had the instinct to go and help Ron, but Harry stopped her (albeit, out of necessity). Ron could have been dead for all he knew. Now Eustace_Scrubb: I agree with most of what you say. I don't think love or compassion set Harry apart. However, this first example doesn't really work. I think maybe the movie gives the impression that Hermione wanted to help Ron before the chess game was over. In the book though (PS, Canadian pb ed., pp.205-206) when Ron says "I've got to be taken," both Harry and Hermione shout "NO!" Ron simply won't take no for an answer though. After Ron's hit by the Queen's stone arm "Hermione screamed but stayed on her square" with no prompting from Harry. After the white king surrenders, neither Harry nor Hermione go to Ron: "With one last desperate look back at Ron, Harry and Hermione charged through the door and up the next passageway." Only after the potions/logic challenge does Hermione turn back to look after Ron...and then only because there's only enough potion for one to go on. Of course the movie dropped the potions so there was no reason for H & H to run off without checking on Ron. 2beagles: His vendetta to avenge his parents' murder is what drives him, not love or compassion. Eustace_Scrubb again: I don't really see Harry as vendetta-driven, at least not through the series as a whole. I mean, he finds out the Voldemort killed his parents early in PS/SS, but this fact seems to have relatively little impact on him until at least POA and even after that I don't see him as obsessed with personal revenge. Afraid of Voldemort? Sure and with good reason... Now...this got me to thinking about what I really do see as Harry's defining qualities...and that got so long and away from this subject that I'll have to put it in another post. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu May 13 18:36:04 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 18:36:04 -0000 Subject: The Map, the Twins, the Rat? (Why is there a passage to Honeydukes anyway?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98229 > vmonte wrote: > Why is there a secret passage that leads to Honeydukes anyway? It > seems strange that there is a passage there. Who made it? > Geoff wrote: > Perhaps Dumbledore uses it to get his secret stock of sherbert lemons. Mandy here: But are DD Sherbet Lemons a secret? Also, Sherbet Lemons a muggle candy, (McGonnigal doesn't recognize them in the beginning of PS/SS) so would Honeydukes even stock them? Is a candy store (Oh, I'm becoming more American the longer I live here.) :-) Is a sweet shop really a strange place for a secret passage into a school to end/begin? Not if it was built by the owner of Honeydukes themselves, to cash in on a Hogwarts black market in sweet trading. Sweets and school kids are inseparable Unless the point is a sweet shop would be the last place anyone would look for a secret tunnel? Cheers Mandy From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu May 13 18:52:11 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 18:52:11 -0000 Subject: The Map (Blocked Passage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98230 > Probono: > I just always assumed that these 2 passages were connected somehow > and both led to the chamber. After the collapse there is another > door that Harry has to get through using parseltongue. Fred and > George wouldn't be able to get into the chamber or probably even > recognize the solid wall as a door to a chamber. I just figured the > other passage runs past the chamber and onto Hogsmeade. Mandy here: Yes I agree. There had to have been a way for Tom Riddle to get in and out of the Chamber. We know of only one way in, and that is from the sink in the girl's bathroom. A pipe leading down hundreds of feet below the school, but you can't get out of the Chamber that way. Only the Basilisk could, as it was a blood big snake that can slither up and out of vertical pipes. No human would ever climb out of that pipe Harry, Ron and Lockhart slid down to get into the Chamber. Remember Fawlks flew them out. There has to be another entrance. One that Tom used fifty years earlier to get in and out, and one that will be used again, as the girl's bathroom entrance is now partially blocked by the rubble from Ron's wand backfiring the Memory Charm onto Lockhart. Cheers Mandy From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 13 19:13:57 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:13:57 -0000 Subject: Snape as a teacher In-Reply-To: <005901c4384a$9ebc6a60$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98231 Ffred wrote: > > Without knowing whether there's any connection between particular Houses and > jobs in the Ministry generally, it's hard to speculate about how Slytherins > would stand, but it seems to me that they'd have a good chance of prospering > in that rather poisonous environment... > Potioncat: By the same token, a Gryffindor who thinks Slytherin is the House of Dark Wizards may not consider a Slytherin for a job.I think it's just like in the real world. Someone from your alma mater applies for a job and you may look more favorably at her resume. But that's only going to go so far. I really can't see that House Loyalty would be taken too far after graduating. It would probably show up most when your child goes to school or when you select your seat in the stands for the Quidditch matches. Potioncat From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu May 13 19:15:04 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:15:04 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as a teacher References: <1084406267.5178.6552.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001d01c4391e$9fd5af40$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 98232 Pippin wrote: >I don't think it does. The older kids don't seem to care very much >about the House Cup. I think most adult wizards see the House >rivalry as something they've outgrown--to still be concerned >about your house standings as an adult would be a bit like >Bagman running around in his old Wimbourne Wasps >uniform--rather gauche, I should think. You could be right on that. My thoughts on the Ministry are partly based on an incident that my boss told me about (bear with me, this _is_ relevant!) when he had worked for a short time at one of our offices in Scotland (I am in the UK Civil Service). He was chatting when he got there with some of the Scottish folk and one of them asked him: What school did you go to? Somewhat taken aback, he replied XXXX Grammar School. Ah, said the Scotsman, not St Josephs or St Mary's or anything like that? No, said my boss. You're not a Catholic then? was the next question. No, he said. That's ok then, said the Scotsman. Our head of branch is a Catholic, he only ever promotes Catholics. Now this rather nasty piece of sectarianism isn't in the dim and distant past, from what my boss said, it must have been in the 1980s. Clearly in Scotland at that time, loyalties established _before_ joining the civil service were carried forward and became the basis of discrimination and favouritism _within_ the civil service. I tend to see the MoM as even more of a political hothouse than its Muggle counterpart, because the executive and the administration are not separate as they are in our world, and think "What loyalties might there be that would be carried forward in that way?" Partly of course the answer would be political, and I can easily envisage there being "DE" and "aristocratic" factions within the Ministry, doubtless there are others that we've never heard of. But when those entering the Ministry have spent the previous 7 years in an atmosphere surrounded where their House is their family, I think it's a possible further source of political loyalties (same as the English public school system). >As for the reputation of ex-Slytherins generally, there is no one >more concerned about popularity than Cornelius Fudge. If >hanging around with ex-Slytherins would expose him to >badmouthing in the press, he wouldn't do it. No, I don't think he would, and I agree with you that Slytherins aren't any sort of "outcast" group socially >I don't think a Slytherin boss would want many other Slytherins >underneath him--he'd be better off with Hufflepuffs. Unless, like Kennedy with J Edgar Hoover, s/he would rather have them inside the tent... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 13 19:21:24 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:21:24 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape and Respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98233 Pippin wrote: > > But I think Dumbledore has a more personal reason for > correcting Harry. Just as Hagrid gets upset when someone > insults Dumbledore, Dumbledore doesn't like hearing people > insult Snape. It's worth noting that he doesn't like it when Snape > insults Harry either, and always interrupts Snape when he hears > the start of an anti-Harry tirade. > Potioncat: I think you've got it. DD doesn't try to change Snape's mind, or Harry's, but he does indicate that he repects both of them. This all started from whether Lupin is Lupin or Remus and developed into what the students call the adults. I think on another post it was stated that Harry refers to Lockhart and Umbridge without the Professor, and wasn't corrected. If that is the case, then it reinforces DD's opinion of Snape. Potioncat From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu May 13 19:23:03 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:23:03 -0500 Subject: i think i'm onto something - Cedric Diggory! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98234 So sorry if this has been brought up before. My mother and I were re-reading GoF and she brought something to my attention and of course I had to speculate. When H/R/H go to the kitchens and tickle the pear - Harry says something about having wondered about where that door led ever since he saw Cedric go through it the night after the names were drawn. I think he went to talk to Winky! He probably realized his father was not with him during the DE appearance at the QWC and went to look. I bet he suspected his father of some wrong doing and went to question Winky!! It is obvious that Amos does not like Harry and very obvious IMO that Cedric did not like the ways of his father. What do you guys think? Do I have something? Has this been mentioned before? Gina -desperately seeking a clue! Gina A. Miller [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From teshara at yahoo.com Thu May 13 19:29:21 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:29:21 -0000 Subject: The Map (Blocked Passage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > > Probono: > > I just always assumed that these 2 passages were connected somehow > > and both led to the chamber. After the collapse there is another > > door that Harry has to get through using parseltongue. Fred and > > George wouldn't be able to get into the chamber or probably even > > recognize the solid wall as a door to a chamber. I just figured the > > other passage runs past the chamber and onto Hogsmeade. > > Mandy here: > Yes I agree. There had to have been a way for Tom Riddle to get in > and out of the Chamber. > > We know of only one way in, and that is from the sink in the girl's > bathroom. A pipe leading down hundreds of feet below the school, but > you can't get out of the Chamber that way. Only the Basilisk could, > as it was a blood big snake that can slither up and out of vertical > pipes. No human would ever climb out of that pipe Harry, Ron and > Lockhart slid down to get into the Chamber. Remember Fawlks flew > them out. > > There has to be another entrance. One that Tom used fifty years > earlier to get in and out, and one that will be used again, as the > girl's bathroom entrance is now partially blocked by the rubble from > Ron's wand backfiring the Memory Charm onto Lockhart. Myrtle, and I think Tom, said it was in the girl's loo and I believe them. If the school was built a thousand years ago I'd like to think it was done in the style the Romans did their plumbing. (Who had working toilets before the rest of us. They took it from the Greeks, who coincidentally, never mede it to England.) I'm not sure about in-home construction, but I'm familliar with what stands still in some parts of underground London. They planned big and made plans for monumental growth. Maybe the pipes in Hogwarts are huge as well? The basalisk in the movie was huge, but at a person who read ancient myths as a kid I'll tell you, that was no Basilisk. It was the love child of a amputee frill lizard and a overgrown snake. Anyone know anything about Roman plumbing? And who said Salazar was the only one who made himself a rec room? It could lead to a place Rowena or Helga built. (As Harry finds a room full of ancient, unfinished needlework...) ~ Chelle BASILISKS HAVE FEET!!! From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 13 19:31:21 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:31:21 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98236 Finwitch wrote: > > And using those 'honorific?' words CAN be used to show disrespect as > well. (Fred&George are the experts on doing that!) Potioncat: So was Malfoy in the way he said "Professor" when speaking to Lupin. Lupin chose to ignore it. Finwitch: > Also, do you consider Gilderoy Lockhart as respectable just because > he was a professor? Or Dolores Umbridge for that matter? Potioncat: I would say that they are due the title and courtesy while teachers. It may be that Harry was allowed to get away with not using the title when talking about them, and that would say a lot too, wouldn't it? When Snape is talking to Harry about occlumency, he calls the toad "Deloris Umbridge" which I think was his way of avoiding the title. Finwitch: > And I don't think Harry's being disrespectful or rude to Snape - he's > not calling him 'Snivellus', is he? Potioncat: I can just imagine DD's reaction to that! My point is, that DD, very gently, reminds Harry to use Professor when referring to Snape. That is DD's way of showing his own respect for Snape and his expectation that Harry show respect. He certainly is not expecting Harry to feel it. Potioncat From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 19:29:45 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:29:45 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: ? > > What does Harry accomplish by all his > theatrical demonstrations of disdain? He sabotages his own > occlumency lessons with Snape. He gets his hand sliced up for > detention with Umbridge. He draws attention to himself at every > turn, so that he and his friends have to sneak around and elude > hostile scrutiny. By contrast, Snape and the rest of the teachers > carry out a completely effective campaign to tie up and neutralize > Umbridge while maintaining a respectful and even agreeable facade. OK, posting from work, so this will be short. :o) What Harry accomplishes by standing up for himself against Snape? If nothing else, he manages to keep his self-esteem and not getting scared when Snape has a go at him, unlike poor Neville does.(hoping that this would change in the future books). If this is the lesson Dumbledore wants Harry to learn - how to resist people like Snape, he sure succeeds. > It's only a question of degree. If he isn't being disrespectful, > then why is Dumbledore always correcting him? > > Wanda As Pippin said, Dumbledore also stops Snape when he starts his "anti- Harry rants" Alla From pt4ever at yahoo.com Thu May 13 19:34:41 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:34:41 -0000 Subject: i think i'm onto something - Cedric Diggory! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > What do you guys think? Do I have something? Has this been mentioned before? > > Gina -desperately seeking a clue! > It's mentioned in the books that this same corridor leads to the Hufflepuff dormitory, so I imagine that Cedric was just going back to his dorm. - JoAnna From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 19:39:03 2004 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:39:03 -0000 Subject: The Map (Blocked Passage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > Mandy here: > Yes I agree. There had to have been a way for Tom Riddle to get in > and out of the Chamber. > > We know of only one way in, and that is from the sink in the girl's > bathroom. A pipe leading down hundreds of feet below the school, but > you can't get out of the Chamber that way. Only the Basilisk could, > as it was a blood big snake that can slither up and out of vertical > pipes. No human would ever climb out of that pipe Harry, Ron and > Lockhart slid down to get into the Chamber. Remember Fawlks flew > them out. > > There has to be another entrance. One that Tom used fifty years > earlier to get in and out, and one that will be used again, as the > girl's bathroom entrance is now partially blocked by the rubble from > Ron's wand backfiring the Memory Charm onto Lockhart. > > Cheers Mandy karenoc1 delurks briefly: Not necessarily. We know that Tom Riddle could control the basilisk. So why couldn't he ride the basilisk up the pipe and out of the Chamber? (It seemed to be an awfully large pipe!) Also, I don't think that Tom always entered the Chamber to summon the basilisk. I think he may have called to it from the bathroom entrance to the tunnel. Remember Moaning Myrtle's description of her death? [p. 299 Scholastic edition of Chamber of Secrets] "'... It happened right here. I died in this very stall. ... The door was locked, and I was crying, and then I heard somebody come in. They said something funny. A different language, I think it must have been. Anyway, what really got me was that it was a boy speaking. So I unlocked the door, to tell him to go and use his own toilet, and then--" Myrtle swelled importantly, her face shining, 'I died.'" If Myrtle's death description is accurate, then Tom would not have had time to go down to the Chamber to summon the basilisk. The basilisk, at this point, was "on call" so to speak. But I also always thought that the blocked passage had something to do with the structural collapse of the tunnel leading to the Chamber.... The two passageways could have been near each other but not necessarily connected. Otherwise, wouldn't the Marauders have found the Chamber during their numerous explorations? From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu May 13 19:42:04 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:42:04 -0000 Subject: Harry's Defining Qualities (Was Re: Book 7 predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98240 vmonte wrote : I do, however, believe that Harry's greatest gift is his ability to love and his compassion for others. This gift is probably inherited from his mother, and although it has nothing to do with magic, it is more powerful than any magic. Del replies : Even after all that time, even after reading so many posts about it, I still don't see it, I still don't see that Harry has any more love or compassion than any average kid. Harry has a lot of qualities, courage and perseverance for example, but he doesn't strike me as either particularly loving or exceptionnally compassionate. Can someone explain that to me yet again :-) ? Now Eustace_Scrubb: Well since I tend to agree with Del on this, I started thinking about what special qualities Harry does have...I don't mean to suggest that he has "more" of these qualities than anyone else in the world, just that if you think of Harry Potter, these qualities stand out. And then I wondered, which of these qualities are most likely to make a difference in the final conflict? One thing that stands out about Harry is persistence--once he makes up his mind he stubbornly sticks to his course...even when he turns out to be wrong. (While allowing LV to bait him with the thought of Sirius in danger is the most obvious example, let's not forget that he was dead-certain it was Snape who was after the Stone until he reached the Mirror.) This may be both a great strength and a great weakness. Resourcefulness in desperate situations--he quickly figured out that his only hope against Quirrel was to sear him with his suddenly-lethal hands. He similarly deduced that he could "kill" the memory of Tom Riddle with the basilisk tooth that had dealt him a deadly wound. He conjured a full patronus under extreme pressure--the first time he'd really got it right. Weakened and stunned, he was able to make just the right series of quick decisions in the graveyard to escape Voldemort and the Death Eaters (and bring back Cedric's body too). And when they were cornered by the Death Eaters in the Prophecy Room, Harry was able to get them all out alive, though not unscarred--partly through his leadership on the spot, partly through his teaching of the DA. I think that this may be what makes Harry special--and it goes well beyond the Slytherin instinct to save his own skin. In PS/SS and GOF, it is mainly his own skin he saves (hmmm, Quirrel was obviously _not_ a Slytherin, eh?). But in COS he saves Ginny Weasley; in POA, his use of the Patronus saves them all from the Dementors' kiss by the lake and results in the escape of Sirius and Buckbeak. And while he led his friends into harm's way in OoP, he also helped get them out of it. Harry uses whatever tools he finds available to fight for what he believes is right and to survive to the next battle and so far he's left none of his friends behind. (He may blame himself for Sirius' death, but wrongly in my opinion...and besides, he didn't lead Sirius to the MoM in the same way he led his five schoolmates.) One suspects that the stakes--and therefore the desperation--are going to get higher in each of the last two books. And Harry now knows more about his importance to the wizarding world as a whole--he may "want out" more than once--he'll probably resist his destiny. But when he's in a seemingly hopeless situation, he'll come through. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu May 13 19:43:47 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:43:47 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98241 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > What Harry accomplishes by standing up for himself against Snape? If > nothing else, he manages to keep his self-esteem and not getting > scared when Snape has a go at him, unlike poor Neville does. (hoping > that this would change in the future books). > > If this is the lesson Dumbledore wants Harry to learn - how to resist > people like Snape, he sure succeeds. > I don't know if this is precisely what Dumbledore wants Harry to learn. I've never noticed him to be especially concerned about anyone's "self-esteem", to use that very current expression. And "resisting" Snape is almost the opposite of what Dumbledore asks of Harry, to no avail. Whatever Harry accomplishes by mouthing off to his elders seems to be purely Harry-centric - it certainly helps no one else. Wanda From antigone_q at yahoo.com Thu May 13 19:44:00 2004 From: antigone_q at yahoo.com (Rebecca D.) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:44:00 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS: Possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98242 Ever since I saw the interview with Rowling where she says she "nearly gave it all away" in Chamber of Secrets, I've been turning it over and over in my mind and wondering what little detail I missed that might give away the whole story. Here's a thought (and it's way out in left field, so it's okay if you disagree): Petrified Hermione is clutching a small piece of paper telling about the Basalisk. However, given Hermione's respect for books, it seems so unlikely to me that she would _tear_ a page out of a book - probably a LIBRARY book at that. Is it possible that someone left that information for her, or gave it to her? If so, it of course leads to several questions: Who gave it to her? How did they get the information about the chamber? And why did she not say someone gave her the info or left it for her to find? Antigone q. From garybec at yahoo.com Thu May 13 17:46:57 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 17:46:57 -0000 Subject: Why were they going to arrest Hagrid? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98243 This is my burning question that I haven't seen addressed yet. (Although I'm new, I looked, sorry if I missed it.) On the night of the astronomy O.W.L., why were Umbridge and her cronies going to send Hagrid off to Azkaban instead of just giving him the 'sack' like Trelawny? The only explanation I can think of, is maybe because she thought he had put the nifflers in her office? But is that a crime worth a term in Azkaban? Maybe I missed something else? I need some input please, and thank you! Becki From siskiou at vcem.com Thu May 13 20:22:30 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:22:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 7 predictions/oh no fluffy bunnies again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <153519108.20040513132230@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98244 Hi, Thursday, May 13, 2004, 6:44:58 AM, arrowsmithbt wrote: > Unless the > next book is up-beat and gives cause for optimism (not > something that can be predicted with confidence), the > ending may be more traumatic than many may be > comfortable with. I'm one of the readers who still hope for a somewhat upbeat ending (I get enough traumatic stuff in RL, and prefer a "silver lining" in my favorite reading materials. HP is unfinished, which prevents me from reading the last few pages first ). This part from a 1999 interview makes me think JKR isn't going to end HP with complete trauma: ********************* JOM: In this country, we've recently seen many novels for young people that have been termed 'bleak' in their preoccupation with serious personal and social problems. Did you intentionally take another direction with Harry Potter? Rowling: Yes, thats what Im trying to do with the books in this series. They could be seen as an antidote to all of the grim books. There has been the same trend in publishing in Great Britain. Weve had a glut of very realistic, gritty, very bleak books. ********************* You can find the interview here: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0799-booklinks-omalley.html I do realize this was said several years ago, but JKR has always maintained she knows the whole story and what will happen to everyone... Though I *am* somewhat worried that she is becoming influenced by readers' comments a bit. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From dawnbenns at hotmail.com Thu May 13 18:29:37 2004 From: dawnbenns at hotmail.com (deeby8658) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 18:29:37 -0000 Subject: more names - Severus Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98245 June wrote: > Severus and Snape together make a good sibilant, and Severus > certainly sounds strict. I suspect the main design was to just > make him sound a bit scary for the kids. deeby now: I was just reading June's fascinating post on name derivations and just wondered if Severus might be a play on 'sever us' as in 'part us'? Might this link in with DD's cryptic comment 'in essence divided' and could it be a clue to Snape's future role?? Apologies if all this has been explored before. deeby From spaebrun at yahoo.com Thu May 13 20:06:28 2004 From: spaebrun at yahoo.com (spaebrun) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:06:28 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98246 Reed (me): I snipped the whole general discussion about whether or not Snape deserves a honorific title given his behaviour and whether age or position do automatically earn you respect. It is really interesting, but I think there are also some special circumstances to consider in order to explain why Dumbledore insists on Harry calling Snape 'professor'. 1) For Snape it is very important to be treated with respect. He actually seems to have a fear of being disrespected in any way, especially by Harry - most likely due to his experiences with James. So he needs to have this respect shown formally. Just remember Snape's insistance on being called 'sir' during Occlumency lessons! This was his way of 'symbolically' forcing submittance and respect he believes Harry denies him. So whether or not *we* (or even Harry) think(s) it is disrespectful to call Snape with his last name only is not the point. *Snape* would definitely find it very disrespectful and if he knew about it, it would make his relationship to Harry even more tense. 2) Dumbledore himself obviously believes that Snape is worthy of Harry's respect, but he also knows that Snape is a difficult person. So reminding Harry to use the title is also a way to remind him not to judge Snape rashly - precisely *because* Snape's usual behaviour makes it so easy to disrespect him. Siriusly Snapey Susan said in in earlier post: > As much as I despise Snape's methods with Harry and, esp., Neville, > I think DD is right to call Harry on this disrespectfulness. It > can't do anything to help improve his situation with Snape--er, with > Professor Snape. I absolutely agree and I think this is one of the main reasons Dumbledore does insist on it. He knows that Snape and Harry have to work together and even though you may argue that it is the adult who has to take the first step, given Snape's and Harry's personalities I think it's not bad judgement to appeal to Harry first (though we don't even know what Dumbledore tells Snape). Age does not necessarily make you wiser, after all! Reed From magsthomas at yahoo.com Thu May 13 20:16:22 2004 From: magsthomas at yahoo.com (magsthomas) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:16:22 -0000 Subject: POA: Scabbers / Pettigrew & the Weasleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98247 My husband is listening to POA at work (in part for something to do while he programs and in part prep. for the film's release) and we struck up a conversation about clues that point to Scabbers not being quite what he seems. In the process, we asked ourselves the following questions: a) When did Scabbers go live w/ the Weasleys? b) Did it really make a difference as something other than a hiding place before Ron became friends w/ Harry? We think we have an answer to A -- but I wanted to toss B out there for discussion. Pettigrew is sure to resurface in Books 6 or 7. What are your theories? - M. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu May 13 20:19:39 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:19:39 -0000 Subject: Harry's Defining Qualities (Was Re: Book 7 predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > > Harry uses whatever tools he finds available to fight for what he > believes is right and to survive to the next battle and so far he's > left none of his friends behind. (He may blame himself for Sirius' > death, but wrongly in my opinion...and besides, he didn't lead Sirius > to the MoM in the same way he led his five schoolmates.) > > One suspects that the stakes--and therefore the desperation--are going > to get higher in each of the last two books. But when he's > in a seemingly hopeless situation, he'll come through. > Defining quality? There's really only one - he's lucky. My word he is. Consider the times he's been in mortal danger and how he escapes. Quirrell going to pieces; Fawkes, a snapped off Basilisk fang and an old diary; a conflict of wands; DD turning up out of the blue. None of those events could have been forseen, logically deduced or counted on. Each time something outside his control came to his rescue. He got lucky. And luck is a quality; not for nothing did Napoleon ask when considering senior promotions "Is he lucky?" Kneasy From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu May 13 20:25:18 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:25:18 -0500 Subject: another foolish question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98249 Why is the mascot of Gryffindor a lion instead of a griffin? Gina - just curious. Gina A. Miller [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 13 20:44:47 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:44:47 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS: Possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98250 Antigone q. wrote: > Ever since I saw the interview with Rowling where she says > she "nearly gave it all away" in Chamber of Secrets, I've been > turning it over and over in my mind and wondering what little > detail I missed that might give away the whole story. Wow--you SAW the interview?!? Many of us have looked & looked for this particular phrase of "nearly gave it all away" without luck. Can you provide the source?? Siriusly Snapey Susan...who's afraid she has no thought on your idea of the torn paper in Hermione's hand From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 20:48:02 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:48:02 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape and Respect In-Reply-To: <40A38392.3544.455AF3E@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > > More personally... I think Dumbledore knows Snape's psyche very > well. Personally I feel Snape *craves* Harry's respect. Snape - for > whatever reason - does not appear to have been treated well by > James Potter and his friends. They didn't respect him - and I think > Snape may well have craved that respect for all sorts of reasons. > > Look at Snape's relationship with Remus and Sirius. While he > certainly isn't friendly with either of them - he seems to be able > to hold himself better in control around Remus than around Sirius. > Why? I think it's because Lupin goes out of his way to treat Snape > with respect, and Snape responds to that. Black, on the other hand, > doesn't respect Snape - and so Snape cannot deal with him. > > Harry is the image of his father. And I think Dumbledore realises > that if Harry treats Snape with respect, it's possible Snape will > modify his behaviour towards Harry. Now that doesn't speak well of > Snape at all - he's the adult, he should be the one trying to treat > Harry properly - but he is obviously incapable of that. I think > Dumbledore may feel that if Harry shows Snape respect, over time, > Snape will be mollified. > > And that starts with minor courtesies. > > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought > Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html > (ISTJ) | drednort at a... | ICQ: 6898200 > "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one > thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the > facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be > uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that > need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil > Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia Hi, Shaun! I am inclined to agree with you that that is exactly what Dumbledore may think about Snape and Harry relationship.- If Harry shows him respect, if even only formal, Snape may change his behaviour towards Harry. I understand Dumbledore's supposed logic, but I also think that OoP showed that Dumbledore was living in a dream world ( not that he ever lived in the real one. :)), if he was hoping that by putting Snape and Harry together , they would tolerate each other better) Snape saw Harry's memories of his childhood, he saw that Harry was never a spoiled child, or whoever Snape believed him to be. I saw no sighs whatsoever that it changed his attitude even a little bit. Yes, he went to check on Harry's story about Padfoot, but personally I think he did it out of fear of Dumbledore, not because he believed Harry. Of course, since we are not privy to Snape's thoughts, I could be 100% wrong. Again, I absolutely agree that Harry should call Snape "professor",. but nothing else is due to him, IMO. Alla From antigone_q at yahoo.com Thu May 13 20:53:46 2004 From: antigone_q at yahoo.com (Rebecca D.) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:53:46 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS: Possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98252 I will certainly check my source when I get home, but I'm pretty sure this was something _I_ saw and not secondary information. I'll post when after I double-check. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Antigone q. wrote: > > Ever since I saw the interview with Rowling where she says > > she "nearly gave it all away" in Chamber of Secrets, I've been > > turning it over and over in my mind and wondering what little > > detail I missed that might give away the whole story. > > > Wow--you SAW the interview?!? Many of us have looked & looked for > this particular phrase of "nearly gave it all away" without luck. > Can you provide the source?? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan...who's afraid she has no thought on your idea > of the torn paper in Hermione's hand From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 13 21:38:16 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 21:38:16 -0000 Subject: The Map (Blocked Passage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "probonoprobono" wrote: > > Finwitch: > > > > Maybe, maybe not. We do know it was large (considering Sirius > > suggested it for DA), and that Fred&George say it's all caved in. > I > > think that it'd take quite a lot to get something that large to > > get 'caved in' - what happened to it? Is that event somehow keyed > to > > why the Twins stopped using it? Were they, perhaps, on their way > when > > the roof fell in? Geoff: But we don't know whereabouts the fall was. Is the passage ran to Hogsmeade, then it was a very long one. Sirius remarks that it was roomy so there still may be plenty of space at the school end. Finwitch: > > I wonder, did it have anything to do with how, on the passageway > to > > Chamber of Secrets, roof falls in and blocks both Ron and Lockhart > > from it! > > Probono: > > I just always assumed that these 2 passages were connected somehow > and both led to the chamber. After the collapse there is another > door that Harry has to get through using parseltongue. Fred and > George wouldn't be able to get into the chamber or probably even > recognize the solid wall as a door to a chamber. I just figured the > other passage runs past the chamber and onto Hogsmeade. Geoff: Can I point you to a reply which I wrote in message 90496 on this very point (save me cutting and pasting). From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 13 21:46:30 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 21:46:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore hiding...Marchbank's Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > Finwitch: > ...edited... > > Marchbanks was also one who said: 'did things with a wand I had > never seen before' (just how old IS she, if it's true that *she* > graded Albus Dumbledore's OWLs and NEWTs?! Has she, perhaps, a > connection to N. Flamel and taken a little of his Life Elixir?) > > ...edited... > bboy_mn: Well, I'm probably not going to add much to the current direction of this thread since I am going off on a tangent, but none the less, here it is. I too have wondered just how old Madame Marchbanks is. To preface my comment, let's estabish the maximum lifespan of a wizard. Remember that MAXIMUM lifespan, not average lifespan. I estimate that wizards live twice a long as muggles. Muggle have a /potential/ lifespan of about 120. A few people in the real world do live to an age that approaches this limit. But I think the number who actually reach it is EXTREMELY small, if any. Barring some extraordinary break through in medicine and lifestyle, 120 seems to be the upper boundary. That would bring the MAX lifespan of a wizard/witch to about 240. Functionally, that would mean several wizards and witches would live to an age greater than 200, just as more and more muggle reach an age of 100 or more. Now Madame Marchbanks. I think the least she could be is 30 years older than Dumbledore making her about 180. But I think she would need more experience to become a Standardized Test Administrator for the Ministry, so I would suggest that 50 years older than Dumbledore is more likely. That would make her about 200, and I think her description relative to Dumbledore's physical description would bare that out. Given Marchbanks age of about 200 (100 in muggle years) and her physical description, I think she would be luck to make it another 20 years (110 in muggle years). R.I.P - Madame Marchbanks, dead at the age of 220 (give or take a couple of years). > Finwitch: > > Oh, and just as many times as Hermione says that Hogwarts: a > History claims you cannot apparate or disapparate into/from Hogwarts > - but does that necessarily include apparating *within* Hogwarts, as > long as you don't leave the grounds? (I see the anti-apparating as a > shield that can't be passed by apparating - it doesn't seem to > prevent portkeys or floo, anyway). > > I'd suspect that if one needs to learn how to apparate, one could do > it within the Room of Requirement? > > Finwitch bboy_mn: I'm not sure I want to buy into the idea of Dumbledore lurking about the castle in invisible form while Umbridge scours the countryside for him. It's an interesting thought, but I suspect there were plenty of things Dumbledore could do away from the castle to keep himself occupied. The most likely place would have been Grimmauld Place, but even if he went there, I doubt that he would hang around all day having tea with Sirius. More likely is that he would have used his time away from his school administration duties to gather intelligence and contact supporters to re-enforce the ranks of the Order. Like I said, Dumbledore hiding in the castle in invisible form is a nice thought; cool to think of him in the castle standing right next to Umbridge while Umbridge is having the wizard world searched for him, but to me, it seems an incredible waste of time and opportunity for Dumdledore. But then... that's just my opinion. bboy_mn From antigone_q at yahoo.com Thu May 13 21:46:45 2004 From: antigone_q at yahoo.com (Rebecca D.) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 21:46:45 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS: Possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98255 Re-reading your post, I just want to say that it was NOT that exact phrase - it was only something similar. Like I said, I'll cite my reference when I'm at home and can give the exact quote. Antigone q. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Antigone q. wrote: > > Ever since I saw the interview with Rowling where she says > > she "nearly gave it all away" in Chamber of Secrets, I've been > > turning it over and over in my mind and wondering what little > > detail I missed that might give away the whole story. > > > Wow--you SAW the interview?!? Many of us have looked & looked for > this particular phrase of "nearly gave it all away" without luck. > Can you provide the source?? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan...who's afraid she has no thought on your idea > of the torn paper in Hermione's hand From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 13 22:00:37 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 22:00:37 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS: Possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98256 Antigone q. wrote: > > > Ever since I saw the interview with Rowling where she says > > > she "nearly gave it all away" in Chamber of Secrets, I've been > > > turning it over and over in my mind and wondering what little > > > detail I missed that might give away the whole story. SSSusan asked: > > Wow--you SAW the interview?!? Many of us have looked & looked > > for this particular phrase of "nearly gave it all away" without > > luck. Can you provide the source?? Antigone q. followed up: > Re-reading your post, I just want to say that it was NOT that > exact phrase - it was only something similar. Like I said, I'll > cite my reference when I'm at home and can give the exact quote. Siriusly Snapey Susan again: Antigone, if it wasn't that exact quote, perhaps it was this one-- which is as close as I've seen anything come to "nearly gave it all away": [From #82940, where Joj wrote:] I've been thinking about this quote from JKR. "Key things happen in book two. No one knows how important those things are... yet. There's a lot in there. And I know how difficult it was to get it all in there without drawing too much attention to the clues." http://filmforce.ign.com/harrypotter/articles/377/377244p1.html? fromint=1 Let me know, please, if that's the one or if your source was something different. There are a *lot* of people who've tried to nail down this "nearly gave it all away" thing.... Siriusly Snapey Susan From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Thu May 13 22:00:49 2004 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 22:00:49 -0000 Subject: i think i'm onto something - Cedric Diggory! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98257 Gina: > So sorry if this has been brought up before. My mother and I were re-reading > GoF and she brought something to my attention and of course I had to > speculate. When H/R/H go to the kitchens and tickle the pear - Harry says > something about having wondered about where that door led ever since he saw > Cedric go through it the night after the names were drawn. > > I think he went to talk to Winky! He probably realized his father was not > with him during the DE appearance at the QWC and went to look. I bet he > suspected his father of some wrong doing and went to question Winky!! It is > obvious that Amos does not like Harry and very obvious IMO that Cedric did > not like the ways of his father. > > What do you guys think? Do I have something? Has this been mentioned before? > > Gina -desperately seeking a clue! > Tcy: Maybe I'm missing something...but why would Cedric Diggory be looking for the Crouch's ex-house elf, Winky? Are you suggesting that Amos Diggory had something to do with either Crouch, Sr. or Crouch, Jr.? From ashleyjax2 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 21:00:42 2004 From: ashleyjax2 at yahoo.com (ashleyjax2) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 21:00:42 -0000 Subject: Wormtail's silver hand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98258 I am new here so I don't know wether this has been brought up before but has anyone besides me think that in the future books JKR might make Wormtail kill Lupin with his new SILVER hand. After all you can only kill a werewolf with silver. Just wondering. Please tell me if any of you have thought this too. Thanks. "Ashley" From ashleyjax2 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 20:49:39 2004 From: ashleyjax2 at yahoo.com (ashleyjax2) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:49:39 -0000 Subject: another foolish question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > Why is the mascot of Gryffindor a lion instead of a griffin? That is a good question. The lion is a sign of bravery and Gryffindor house is known for its bravery. Maybe that's not the only reason but it's a logical one. - Ashley From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu May 13 22:33:05 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 22:33:05 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98260 Kneasy wrote: > I use the word "supposedly" deliberately. > > Consider the sequence of events: > Fudge visits Azkaban the *night before* Sirius' escape. Marianne: I'm not sure that's true. Fudge gives Sirius the Daily Prophet, but I haven't found any indication that Sirius escaped the day after. In fact, in PoA Chap 19 p. 372 (US ed) Sirius says that seeing the picture of the Weasleys with Scabbers lit a fire in his head that the dementors couldn't destroy, which gave him strength and cleared his mind so that "one night when they opened my door to bring food, I slipped past them..." That sounds to me like a certain amount of time passed between the day Fudge handed over the paper and the day Sirius escaped. much snippage of Kneasy'e always interesting conspiracy theory/questions. As to an earlier question about why the Dementors at Hogwarts seemed to affect Sirius more than when he was in prison, I suspect that he didn't have a mob of them clustered around his cell, whereas he was smack in the midst of one at the edge of the lake. Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu May 13 22:37:49 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 22:37:49 -0000 Subject: Sirius /Snuffles (was : Sirius and Remus) In-Reply-To: <40A154E4.5010602@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98261 > Geoff Bannister wrote to Jem: > > I presume you mean why did they call Sirius Snuffles? I have always > > assumed it's because, in his Animagus form, he is a dog. And Jem replied: > And this dog has allergies/trouble breathing? I'm sorry. I just don't > understand the appellation as it might apply to a dog or to Sirius or > the dog star. Now Marianne: What suddenly struck me about "Snuffles" is that it seems to be on a continuum...something like Snuffles - Sniffles - Snivellus... Marianne From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 13 22:39:17 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 22:39:17 -0000 Subject: Why were they going to arrest Hagrid? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98262 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "garybec" wrote: > This is my burning question that I haven't seen addressed yet. > (Although I'm new, I looked, sorry if I missed it.) On the night of > the astronomy O.W.L., why were Umbridge and her cronies going to > send Hagrid off to Azkaban instead of just giving him the 'sack' > like Trelawny? The only explanation I can think of, is maybe > because she thought he had put the nifflers in her office? But is > that a crime worth a term in Azkaban? Maybe I missed something else? > I need some input please, and thank you! > > Becki bboy_mn: Did you actually see some place in the book where it says that they are arresting Hagrid and intend to send him to Azkaban, or are you just assuming that because Umbridge brought a bunch of Aurors with her? I don't remember the book specifically saying he was being arrested, although I do remember one of the Aurors telling Hagrid to 'be reasonable'. I think the cowardly Umbridge brought a team of Aurors along with here because she was afraid of Hagrid. Certainly, if she wanted to fire Hagrid, as headmistriss, all she had to do was send him a Notice of Termination by owl. But Umbridge wants the satisfaction of driving Hagrid out of the castle and off the grounds. She doesn't simply want to fire him, much as with Trelawney, she wants to literally throw him out, and to solidify her power, she wants the world to know she did it. Although, she doesn't want too many witnesses in case she makes a fool out of herself again. I think, as reasonably expected, Hagrid resisted. He probably defied and denied her authority. As far as Hargrid, and nearly everyone else, was concerned Dumbledore was the true headmaster. Since Dumbledore hired him, I'm use Hagrid felt that only Dumbledore could fire him, and he therefore refused to leave. Consequently, Umbridge set the Aurors on him. Side note; ever notice how people who fancy themselves as extremely powerful and important, always have a group of idiot goons around to do the actual dirty work? I am VERY VERY (did I mention VERY) curious about what will happen to Umbridge as a result of her extreme and unquestionably unethical actions. Will we get to 'see' the consequences or will they only be referred to in passing? Will she face the criminal penalties which she justly deserves, or will she mearly lose he position of status and power in the wizard world? I think, lost of status and power is most likely. Politicians are notoriously lenient on their own kind. As far as the arrest of Hagrid, I will admit it's possible that that intent was there, but I think it is only one possibility that can be inferred from the circumstance, and I am quite sure the book doesn't come right out and say it. Just a thought. bboy_mn From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 13 22:55:55 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 22:55:55 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape and Respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > I am inclined to agree with you that that is exactly what Dumbledore may think about Snape and Harry relationship.- If Harry shows him respect, if even only formal, Snape may change his behaviour towards Harry. > I understand Dumbledore's supposed logic, but I also think that OoP showed that Dumbledore was living in a dream world ( not that he ever lived in the real one. :)), if he was hoping that by putting Snape and Harry together , they would tolerate each other better) > > Snape saw Harry's memories of his childhood, he saw that Harry was never a spoiled child, or whoever Snape believed him to be. I saw no sighs whatsoever that it changed his attitude even a little bit. > Of course, since we are not privy to Snape's thoughts, I could be 100% wrong.<< Pippin: We are privy to Harry's thoughts, and we know that thanks to his glimpse of Snape's memories, he found himself feeling sorry for Snape. That was a step in the right direction, though he was happy enough to find a new excuse to hate Snape instead. We don't know if Snape ever felt anything of the same sort, but there is a hint that he might have. "He was nine, and Ripper the bulldog was chasing him up a tree and the Dursleys were laughing below on the lawn..." [... Snape asked] "To whom did the dog belong?" Much as Snape will later think that Harry was enjoying the sight of seeing him humiliated in the Pensieve, Harry thinks Snape is rubbing it in. But I don't think so...I think Snape knew exactly how Harry had felt being threatened by a dangerous animal while the people who were supposed to protect you stood around laughing. Don't forget there are two books to go--the Snape vs Harry story line is not likely to be resolved until close to the end of 7, but Dumbledore (and JKR) must lay the groundwork now. Pipppin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 14 00:16:34 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:16:34 -0000 Subject: POA: Scabbers / Pettigrew & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "magsthomas" wrote: > > > My husband is listening to POA at work (in part for something to do > while he programs and in part prep. for the film's release) and we > struck up a conversation about clues that point to Scabbers not > being quite what he seems. > > In the process, we asked ourselves the following questions: > > a) When did Scabbers go live w/ the Weasleys? > > b) Did it really make a difference as something other than a hiding > place before Ron became friends w/ Harry? > > We think we have an answer to A -- but I wanted to toss B out there > for discussion. Pettigrew is sure to resurface in Books 6 or 7. > What are your theories? > > - M. bboy_mn: I will start with part A.) by analysing the Weasley's situation and Pettigrew's intent. First, what would be the best type of family for Peter to hide with? Then what would be the type of family that would most likely take him in? -The Weasleys have a large family with a lot of kids. More kids means more likely for a stray pet to be taken in. -The Weasleys are poor and therefore more likely to take in a stray pet rather than go out a buy one. I seriously doubt that any rat would have live very long had it tried to join the Malfoy clan (or the Black or the Crouch or the Diggory). -The Weasleys, while poor, are still a well respected pureblood wizarding family. -The Weasleys live in the country in a secluded area. -Mr. Weasley works in the Ministry of Magic - Department of Law Enforcement. How very very convinient. -The Weaselys are generally kind and benevolent people. My theory is that Peter looked at the same issues I have pointed out above, and came to the conclusion that the Weasleys would be an ideal family to be with, and a family with a high likelihood of actually taking him in. I speculate, as I so often do, that Peter traveled to the Weasley farm and made himself known to the kids, but cautiously stayed out of sight of the adults. He acted tame, gave indications that he was a clean rat, and tried his damnedest to be ever so cute. I suspect initially he drew the attention of Fred and George who, true to form, were most eager to launch Peter aboard a Dr. Filibuster No Heat Wet Start Firework, but Peter was rescued by Percy. Percy kept an eye on Peter-the Rat after that giving him scraps of food, and generally being nice to him. Once he was under Percy's protection, the other kids, as they came along, would have cozied up to him or at least gotten used to him. By the time Arthur and Molly found out about the rat, he had been around so long, was so tame, and so well liked by the kids, the parents decided it would be best to just let him stay on and allow the kids to have their pet. Once Percy became a god-almighty Prefect, he was much too mature for something as childish as a pet rat, and he had his new owl, so he passed Scabbers on to Ron. I don't think Scabbers had any forsight that Ron would become Harry's best friend, but he would reasonably assume that Ron would be at the same school with Harry, and that Scabbers would therefore gain some degree of information about Harry. But it was just a brilliant stroke of luck that threw Harry and Ron together in the beginning. At stroke of luck that very much worked to Scabber's advantage. As to when all this occured, I'm sure it happened not too long after Voldemort was ripped from his body by Harry. Peter/Scabbers would have been desperate to find someplace safe, as well as some place where he could keep and ear out for news. He probably thought about it a while, and formed the grand plan I have outlined above. I would say that within a month or two of faking his own death, Peter would have become Scabbers-the pet rat. Side note, frequently asked; if the Hogwarts Letter says you can have a owl, toad, or cat, how did Percy and Ron manage to get away with a rat. I once again speculate that Percy, being a nearly perfect student both in his deportment and his studies, asked for an acception which was granted. When Ron inherited Scabbers, he also inherited the permission. Although, I suspect it was a somewhat unofficial inheritance, but since Scabbers had been there previously without causing any problems, the staff had no objections. Just a thought. bboy_mn From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri May 14 00:25:42 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:25:42 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS: Possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98265 > >Antigone q. wrote: > > Ever since I saw the interview with Rowling where she says > > she "nearly gave it all away" in Chamber of Secrets, I've been > > turning it over and over in my mind and wondering what little > > detail I missed that might give away the whole story. > > "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Wow--you SAW the interview?!? Many of us have looked & looked for > this particular phrase of "nearly gave it all away" without luck. > Can you provide the source??------- ---------------- Arya now: I think two different comments are being confused here. There is the "one thing" comment pertaining to the CoS movie (see my quotes below) but I don't seem to find or recall that the comment about "giving it all away" was in relation to this. I actually seem to recall JKR commenting about the first book, and how she had written it all out (nearly twice the size of what we have now for the book) and that after finishing it, she went back and edited, edited, and edited some more. I seem to recall her saying that it was "all given away in the first chapter of the first draft" or such. Which, if you imagine how that first chapter goes, I think it could be very easy for a narrative to give away all too much there--too much of the BIG secrets, I mean. In the CoS DVD interview w/Steve Kloves, JKR says this: [But yeah, I've told Steve probably more than I've told anyone else, because he needs to know. Because it's incredibly annoying of me when he says "Well shall we cut that", or "I wanted to do this" and I say, "Well no... because, you know, in book six, something will happen and you'll need that in" or "that will contradict something that happens" and I can feel him on the end of the emails, you know, *does impression of frustrated Steve typing* "would you mind telling me why?" So I have told him things.] and then a few moments later, Kloves says: [I will sometimes ask Jo. I will say, you know, this detail, you just seem to have cast just a bit more light on this in this scene than the other details. Sometimes I'm wrong, but often she'll say "No, that is going to play." There's one thing in Chamber, actually, that Jo indicated will play later in the series.] http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2003/0302- newsround-mzimba.htm Arya From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 14 00:28:19 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:28:19 -0000 Subject: another foolish question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > Why is the mascot of Gryffindor a lion instead of a griffin? > > Gina - just curious. > > Gina A. Miller bboy_mn: One could equally ask, why isn't the symbol of Ravenclaw a raven instead of an eagle? The House founder's name was Giffindor, and he founded the House of Gryffindor, not the house of Griffin. The cornerstone of Gryffindor is courage, and as others have pointed out, lions are associated with courage. As a side note, a Gryphon (Griffin) has the body of a lion. Also, while Gryphons do occur in heraldry, the lion is more common. The Coat of Arms for Prince Willian and Prince Harry (Henry) contain a Lion and a Unicorn. Just thought I would pass that bit of trivia along. Just a thought. bboy_mn From dk59us at yahoo.com Fri May 14 00:29:11 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:29:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's Defining Qualities (Was Re: Book 7 predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98267 Kneasy wrote: Defining quality? There's really only one - he's lucky. My word he is. Consider the times he's been in mortal danger and how he escapes. Quirrell going to pieces; Fawkes, a snapped off Basilisk fang and an old diary; a conflict of wands; DD turning up out of the blue. None of those events could have been forseen, logically deduced or counted on. Each time something outside his control came to his rescue. He got lucky. And luck is a quality; not for nothing did Napoleon ask when considering senior promotions "Is he lucky?" Kneasy Eustace_Scrubb: Oh, he's lucky all right, I agree with you there. But he had to do something with his luck and not everyone would have done so. That's what I mean by resourcefulness in desperate situations. When Fawkes dropped the diary into Harry's lap, "without thinking, without considering" he grabbed the fang off the floor and stabbed it into the diary. It was luck (or was it?) that Fawkes dropped the diary, it was luck that the near-fatal fang was at Harry's feet. But it was Harry who instinctively put 2 and 2 together and realized this was his only chance to escape Riddle. My guess is that most other wizards, age 12 or not, would have been dead before they made that deduction. He has luck, in the sense that some of the Norse heroes have luck. In part, it's given to him. But he has to make something of it too. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 14 00:36:18 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:36:18 -0000 Subject: Wormtail's silver hand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ashleyjax2" wrote: > I am new here so I don't know wether this has been brought up before > but has anyone besides me think that in the future books JKR might > make Wormtail kill Lupin with his new SILVER hand. After all you can > only kill a werewolf with silver. Just wondering. Please tell me if > any of you have thought this too. Thanks. > > "Ashley" bboy_mn: That's a possibility, although in my own warped mind, I more often picture Wormtail slamming his 'silver' hand into Voldemort's chest and ripping his heart out. (remember you read it here first.) Do we really have any evidence that the hand is truly metalic silver, and not just silver in color? There is a very very slight hint of it being 'molten' when it first appears, but agian it's unclear if that is in descriptive appearance only, or if it was intented as literal. Personally, I didn't take it as literal. I honestly don't think we have enough information to draw any serious conclusion. I think, and hopefully it will be the next book, we need to see more of Wormtail and his hand, before we can know for sure. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 14 00:52:45 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:52:45 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors - Sirius's Reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98270 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > > Marianne: > > ...edited... > > As to an earlier question about why the Dementors at Hogwarts seemed > to affect Sirius more than when he was in prison, I suspect that he > didn't have a mob of them clustered around his cell, whereas he was > smack in the midst of one at the edge of the lake. > > Marianne bboy_mn: Or perhaps, it was because Sirius didn't have a Godson who loved him and forgave him when he was in prison. Perhaps, he didn't have the hope and joy of, for a few brief minutes, knowing he was going to be free and clear, and able to live a normal life again. Perhaps, when that joy, love, forgiveness, and hope were ripped from him, and he was left with nothing but the hell and horror of Azkaban, it left him feeling a little under the weather (slighly sarcastic). Just a thought. bboy_mn From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri May 14 00:58:11 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:58:11 -0000 Subject: Why were they going to arrest Hagrid? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98271 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > As far as the arrest of Hagrid, I will admit it's possible that that > intent was there, but I think it is only one possibility that can be > inferred from the circumstance, and I am quite sure the book doesn't > come right out and say it. > Perhaps attacking or resisting an auror is something akin to resisting a police officer in our world - if Hagrid hadn't done anything to get arrested before, the fight on the school grounds could have been used as a pretext to arrest him then. I'm sure Umbridge would have thought that having Hagrid led off in chains would be just icing on the cake - a pleasant development, even if it wasn't the actual stated goal. Wanda From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri May 14 01:45:26 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 01:45:26 -0000 Subject: Snuffles' name/ Hufflepuff - a thought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98272 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > A completely separate thought arose from a point made by Ellen in > message 98112 and the word Huff. The definition about "blustering" > reminded me of the UK expression about someone "huffing and puffing" > about an occurrence which then made me think about Hufflepuff. Should > we anticipate that members of Hufflepuff are the sort of people who > fuss and bluster about things and get hot under the collar when > everything isn't spot on? Fudge drops nicely into this category; did > he attend Hogwarts and was he in Hufflepuff? Ernie Macmillan, > certainly, seems to exude a slight air of pompousness ? I get the > feel, nice guy but a bit full of his own importance. > Or am I just playing with another cigar? :-) I never thought about it that deeply, but I'll just say that the initial *impression* I got when first reading the name "Hufflepuff" was that of a short, slightly overweight little boy, not at all athletic, puffing a bit as he goes up the stairs. In other words, a general sense of someone who is not particularly gifted, who struggles a bit, finds everything rather an effort, and has to work harder to keep up with everyone else. And I thought that that was the impression that Rowling wanted to create. Maybe the big, sweeping brushstroke is a valid technique - it creates emotional reactions and moods in the reader, but it gets lost if you try to study it with a magnifying glass. Wanda From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri May 14 02:05:53 2004 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus ) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 02:05:53 -0000 Subject: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98273 I haven't posted here for many months. So I checked back clear through December to see if anybody has seriously posted what I am about to suggest. I found nothing but a few gag posts. So here goes. Harry will not end up with Hermione, Ginny, Fleur, Luna, Parvati, or any of the other usual suspects. He will end up with Pansy Parkinson. The germ of this idea comes from an interview Rowling once gave. She was asked about unusual pairings. She replied that there was one that nobody had guessed, but went to the very heart of the series. That got me thinking. I had always been an H/H shipper because they are both strong characters, and they need strong partners to balance. However, it is becoming increasingly obvious that Hermione is destined for Ron -- if he can ever get his act together, that is. So who does that leave Harry with. Ginny? She is fairly strong, but I don't think she is Harry's type. Apart from Ginny's original crush, there has been nothing between them. She is turning into a miniature Ron. Besides, if Rowling was talking about Harry, Ginny certainly has been guessed. That would eliminate her. The other Gryffindor girls? Too giggly. Luna? Too loony. The other non-Slytherin girls? Too vague or non-existent. Certainly not very strong. That leaves the Slytherin Girls. Millicent is just a thug and about as subtle as a lead pipe. She seems to exist solely to beat up Hermione and turn her into a cat. Pansy? Pansy... Hmmm, Pansy. Well, why not? Let's see. She is strong. She seems to be the leader of the Slytherin Girls. She made Slytherin prefect. She could balance Harry nicely. She has a good side. She showed genuine compassion and concern towards Draco when Buckbeak hurt his arm in PoA. True, it was directed towards a scumbag; but if you hold that against her, then what does that say about you? More on this scene later. She was delighted with the Unicorn in GoF. True, she was a member of Umbridge's Inquisition squad and ended up with antlers on her head for a day. However, she is pointedly absent from further I.S. mentions. Did she learn that siding with Umbridge is not the smartest thing to do? Draco should be so smart. If Harry ends up with Pansy, this would tie in the uniting of the houses that was first introduced by the Sorting Hat in OoP. It would provide closure for Harry's original anti-Slytherin prejudice. It would prove that not all Slytherins are evil. It would show that people can change. Is this not the very heart of the series? Why would Pansy even consider Harry? Well, in case you haven't notice, Draco isn't providing a whole lot of competion of late. Malfoy is a loser, even more so with his dad exposed as a DE. Harry, on the other hand, is ascending. Slytherins look out for themselves. Staying tied to the boat-anchor Draco isn't going to do Pansy any good. So why not join D.A. and be with the winners? The thing that really clinched it in my mind is the new PoA movie. Cuaron is being very ruthless. Anything that doesn't further the plot is cut. Looking at the stills from the movie lo and behold we find that little Pansy-Draco-bad-arm scene intact. I would think that this would be a prime cutting candidate. If all it did was prove Draco was faking, that could be done easily elsewhere with no loss to the PoA plot. Since it is still there, it is likely that Rowling needs it to establish Pansy as having a good side. Let's face it, there aren't many glimpses of anything good in Pansy. They become that more precious and require preserving. The nice thing about this theory is that it can be proven before book #7. It is not likely that Pansy could go from totally off Harry's list to the very top of it in the course of a single book. Therefore she needs to start moving up the ladder in book #6. So if Pansy begins thawing towards Harry in book #6, the theory is confirmed. If not, it's bogus. Marcus From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri May 14 02:11:47 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 02:11:47 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98274 > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > > But would Sirius not have recognized that Lupin was mentally > > > "with it" and just play-acting at attacking? > > Pippin: > > Hmmm...that would be a stronger objection if Sirius had ever > > seen a werewolf in its "natural" state. But he can't have. > > > > "Under [the animagi's] influence, I became less dangerous. My > > body was still wolfish, but my mind seemed to become less so > > while I was with them." --PoA ch 18 > Bookworm: > Jumping in where SSS left off --- > IIRC, the potion makes Lupin sleepy so that he just curls up for a nap until he transforms back. That would be a different reaction than being "less dangerous" with his friends. If he had secretly taken the potion that night, I would think Sirius would notice a difference. Pippin: who doesn't want Bookworm to think her post was ignored--- Bookworm: Thank you kindly. Pippin: Fascinating! Are you suggesting that Lupin's constant tiredness is an aftereffect of the potion rather than the werewolf transformation itself? That would be highly realistic--many powerful medicines have debilitating side effects--and it would give Lupin a subconscious reason to avoid taking it. Bookworm: My impression is that tiredness is a side effect of the potion, but not necessarily debilitating. I think the transformation itself probably is debilitating - "It is very painful to turn into a werewolf." (POA p353, US) ? which could also drain his energy. That tiredness as a side effect of the potion may be welcome if it helps him recover. Think of the cold medicines that purposely make people sleepy so they can get better. The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that I think Sirius would notice a difference between Lupin's attitude/behavior when he changed without having taken the potion (feral, and the state Sirius would have been used to) and his attitude/behavior after having taken the potion (saner or calmer that Sirius had seen before). Sort of like the difference between a wild animal and a domesticated one. Prior to the Shrieking Shack, Sirius hadn't seen Lupin for 12 years ? long before the werewolf potion was developed so a difference in the result would be more obvious to him. Pippin: The slightly awkward phrasing "I am able to"--why not just say "I can"? Bookworm: It's the style of Lupin's speech. He has a slightly formal, more old-fashioned style of speaking. Just for the fun of it, here is a detail I picked up on during this rereading: "As long as I take it in the week preceding the full moon, I keep my mind when I transform..." (p352-353) "You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along." (p358) If you miss one dose does that negate the whole series? I'm not sure if this supports or contradicts Pippin's POV, but there it is. Ravenclaw Bookworm From siskiou at vcem.com Fri May 14 02:34:23 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:34:23 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A different and totally serious Harry 'ship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1187312913.20040513193423@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98275 Hi, Thursday, May 13, 2004, 7:05:53 PM, Marcus wrote: > The germ of this idea comes from an interview Rowling once gave. > She > was asked about unusual pairings. She replied that there was one > that > nobody had guessed, but went to the very heart of the series. To me, it seemed she was referring to *theories* that nobody had quite guessed, not *pairings*. I've searched for the exact wording, but can't find the interview right now, even though I know I've recently read it. At first the answer seemed related to the pairing and how she didn't want to ruin people's fun (though she did in a later interview), but then I thought she moved on to more general theorizing. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From Pouncevil at Att.Net Thu May 13 23:20:46 2004 From: Pouncevil at Att.Net (Pouncevil at Att.Net) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 23:20:46 +0000 Subject: Neville's powers (was RE: Will Harry loose his powers?) Message-ID: <051320042320.28771.40A402CE0006D4AF000070632161243646FF9B969A8DD19BD19190@att.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98276 Pippin responded: We know that some of Harry's magical abilities came from Voldemort. Suppose they all did? Suppose it's Harry, not Neville, who was the natural-born squib. So when Voldemort finally dies, Harry's powers vanish forever. In Book One SS/PS Hagrid says "that he's had his name down since the day he was born." That means that he was not a squib nor did all of his powers come form Lord Thingy. That means that he was a wizard form birth. He may have gained power but he already had them from birth. -- Ronald D. Reid From garybec at yahoo.com Fri May 14 01:02:32 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 01:02:32 -0000 Subject: Why were they going to arrest Hagrid? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98277 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "garybec" wrote: > > On the night of > > the astronomy O.W.L., why were Umbridge and her cronies going to > > send Hagrid off to Azkaban instead of just giving him the 'sack' > > like Trelawny? The only explanation I can think of, is maybe > > because she thought he had put the nifflers in her office? But is > > that a crime worth a term in Azkaban? Maybe I missed something else? > > I need some input please, and thank you! > bboy_mn: > > Did you actually see some place in the book where it says that they > are arresting Hagrid and intend to send him to Azkaban, or are you > just assuming that because Umbridge brought a bunch of Aurors with her? > As far as the arrest of Hagrid, I will admit it's possible that that > intent was there, but I think it is only one possibility that can be > inferred from the circumstance, and I am quite sure the book doesn't > come right out and say it. Becki: I guess I assumed that they were trying to arrest him because he says in oop, page 721 says, "Cries and yells echoed across the grounds: a man yelled "Be reasonable Hagrid"! and Hagrid roared, "Reasonable be damned, yeh won' take me like this Dawlish!". And then on page 723 as the trio are discussing the event Ron says, "At least they didn't get to take Hagrid off to Azkaban." Unless Ron was speculating too. Your thoughts? Becki From jasonlava at yahoo.com Fri May 14 01:57:53 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 01:57:53 -0000 Subject: FILK: Hogwarts School Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98278 Hogwarts School (parody of "McArthur Park" by RICHARD HARRIS) aka Dumbledore filks himself. (part 1) DUMBLEDORE: Things were getting strange their second year The floor was soaking wet as they hurried to their class Between the bloody writing on the wall And Filch's hanging cat, the school became a mess Hogwarts school is unsafe in the dark All the students being petrified Someone let the snake out in the drain I don't think that I can take it Cause it took someone to wake it And I think it's gonna kill someone again Oh no! I recall the girl, we found her dead We carried her away to let her rest in peace The girl was really murdered by the heir Who opened up the chamber, he had the keys Hogwarts school is unsafe in the dark All the students being petrified Someone let the snake out in the drain I don't think that I can take it Cause it took someone to wake it And I think it's gonna kill someone again Oh no! (part 2 ? music slows) HARRY: This will be another quest for me And I will take it Another chance of magic victory And I will win it I will find the girl and take her back alive And never let you catch me looking at the snake And after all the pain that I've been through After all the pain that I've been through I will be alright I will take the sword into my hands And I will use it I will win the war with Voldemort No, I won't lose it I will call upon the bird of fire And my blood will flow like tears from his eye And after all the pain in my life Oh after all the pain in my life I'll be making it through I will be alright (Part 3 - music speeds up as Harry fights the Basilisk) (Part 4 ? Chorus) DUMBLEDORE: Hogwarts school is unsafe in the dark All the students being petrified Someone let the snake out in the drain I don't think that I can take it Cause it took someone to wake it And I think it's gonna kill someone again MCGONAGALL Oh no! Oh noooooooooo! (singing shrilly) aahhhhh .. Oh nooooooooooooooooooooo . From jasonlava at yahoo.com Fri May 14 02:03:28 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 02:03:28 -0000 Subject: FILK: You're Too Afraid To Call Me By My Name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98279 You're Too Afraid To Call Me By My Name (The Perfect Harry Potter Filk) (parody of "You Never Even Call Me By My Name (The Perfect Country & Western Song) by David Allen Coe) VOLDEMORT: It was all, that I could do, to keep from dyin' Sometimes it seemed so useless to remain And you don't have to call me Voldy darlin' You're too afraid to call me by my name Now some folks call me, you-know-who And some people say, he-who-must-not-be-named And you don't want to call me, by my name "Voldemort" Even though The Dark Lord will suffice. And I'll hang around because I'll live forever And my hatred and my anger stays the same You don't have to call me `Voldy' darlin' You're too afraid to call me by my name Well I've heard my name spoken by Harry Potter And I've heard it when I got blown away But the only time you'll know, that I am Tom Marvolo Is when Harry finds the girl and saves the day So I'll hang around because I'll live forever And my hatred and my anger stays the same You don't have to call me `Voldy' darlin' You're too afraid to call me by my name (spoken) Well a filthy Muggle named Jason LeBouef wrote that filk, and he told me it was the perfect Harry Potter Filk. I wrote him back a letter and I told him it was not the perfect Harry Potter Filk because he hadn't said anything at all about Hogwarts, or Magic, or Hagrid, or Quidditch, or gettin' hurt. Well he sat down and wrote another verse to this filk and sent it to me. After reading it, I realized this nasty muggle had written the perfect Harry Potter filk. I felt obliged to include it on this song. And the last verse goes like this here: HARRY: I got hurt, the day we won playing Quidditch And I went to visit Hagrid in the rain But before we could get to Hogwarts in the Anglia Almost got runned over by that damned old train. VOLDEMORT: And I'll hang around because I'll live forever And my hatred and my anger stays the same You don't have to call me `Voldy' darlin' You're too afraid to call me I wonder why you're afraid to call me Why don't you ever call me by my name? From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri May 14 03:10:41 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 03:10:41 -0000 Subject: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98280 "Marcus " wrote: The germ of this [Harry/Pansy] idea comes from an interview Rowling once gave. She was asked about unusual pairings. She replied that there was one that nobody had guessed, but went to the very heart of the series. -------------------- Can you give me a link to this quote to which you refer? I don't recall the phrase "unusual pairings" right now.... Arya From tmar78 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 03:58:14 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why were they going to arrest Hagrid? In-Reply-To: <1084487685.5450.51890.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040514035814.19044.qmail@web14101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98281 Becki wrote: On the night of the astronomy O.W.L., why were Umbridge and her cronies going to send Hagrid off to Azkaban instead of just giving him the 'sack' like Trelawny? Tyler responds: I wouldn't put it past Umbridge to come up with some phoney charge just to have an excuse to take Hagrid away. She probably suspected he was in with Dumbledore and saw him as someone working against her precious Fudge. ===== "It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." - Albus Dumbledore __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861 From jillily3g at yahoo.com Fri May 14 04:50:51 2004 From: jillily3g at yahoo.com (Beth) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 04:50:51 -0000 Subject: POA: Scabbers / Pettigrew & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "magsthomas" > wrote: > > My husband is listening to POA at work (in part for something to do while he programs and in part prep. for the film's release) and we > > struck up a conversation about clues that point to Scabbers not > > being quite what he seems. > > > > In the process, we asked ourselves the following questions: > > > > a) When did Scabbers go live w/ the Weasleys? > > > > b) Did it really make a difference as something other than a hiding place before Ron became friends w/ Harry? > > > > We think we have an answer to A -- but I wanted to toss B out there for discussion. Pettigrew is sure to resurface in Books 6 or 7. What are your theories? > > > > - M. > > bboy_mn: > > I will start with part A.) by analysing the Weasley's situation and > Pettigrew's intent. > > First, what would be the best type of family for Peter to hide with? Then what would be the type of family that would most likely take him in? > > -The Weasleys have a large family with a lot of kids. More kids means more likely for a stray pet to be taken in. > > -The Weasleys are poor and therefore more likely to take in a stray > pet rather than go out a buy one. I seriously doubt that any rat would have live very long had it tried to join the Malfoy clan (or the Black or the Crouch or the Diggory). > > -The Weasleys, while poor, are still a well respected pureblood > wizarding family. > > -The Weasleys live in the country in a secluded area. > > -Mr. Weasley works in the Ministry of Magic - Department of Law > Enforcement. How very very convinient. > > -The Weaselys are generally kind and benevolent people. > > My theory is that Peter looked at the same issues I have pointed out above, and came to the conclusion that the Weasleys would be an ideal family to be with, and a family with a high likelihood of actually taking him in. > [snip other plausible speculations] > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Beth: I wonder if he also looked for a family who had a child Harry's age in order to be close "just in case". I also wonder how much time Pettigrew had to spend /not/ being Scabbers in order to retain himself. Sirius explained that his thoughts were less complicated as a dog and he was therefore able to confuse the Dementors and I thought I remembered reading (FBWTFT? Mine went missing after being lent...) that when a vampire transfigured into a bat s/he had the intellect of a bat which could be very dangerous. So did Pettigrew sneak around the Burrow as himself late at night or go out to the grove where the boys practiced Quidditch and just stand on two feet for a while? Beth From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri May 14 05:35:41 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 05:35:41 -0000 Subject: Fudge's Timeline Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98283 I was just looking something up in the Lexicon and found this: [According to an article in The Quibbler from September, 1995, Fudge had been made Minister of Magic "five years ago," which would have been in 1990 (OP10).] http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/dumbledore.html#timeline Now this did not seem to jive at all with my memory of what Sirius says in GoF. Indeed, in Ch 27, Sirius talks about how the backlash from Crouch sending his son to prison and how this caused Crouch to be shunted aside, making way for Fudge to be the next MoM. This, we know from Ch 30, happened 'after Voldemort's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe'. I was assuming there were only two to three years in between the Crouch trial and the new MoM. However, the Lexicon says it was much more--not until 1990. Now, the Lexicon reference is Ch 10 in OotP, but I cannot find where it says Fudge had been MoM for 5 years in this chapter. Can anyone else find this? What impressions do you have as to how long Fudge was MoM? Confused, Arya From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri May 14 05:47:10 2004 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 05:47:10 -0000 Subject: POA: Scabbers / Pettigrew & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98284 Beth: > I also wonder how much time Pettigrew had to spend /not/ being > Scabbers in order to retain himself. Sirius explained that his > thoughts were less complicated as a dog and he was therefore able to confuse the Dementors and I thought I remembered reading (FBWTFT? > Mine went missing after being lent...) that when a vampire > transfigured into a bat s/he had the intellect of a bat which could > be very dangerous. So did Pettigrew sneak around the Burrow as > himself late at night or go out to the grove where the boys > practiced Quidditch and just stand on two feet for a while? Erin: Would he have really needed to? I know that's a standard feature in some other fantasies, but I never got the feeling that it was nessecary in HP. I dunno about the vampire example... there's not a listing for them in FB as they are beings, not beasts. It might be in the introduction though, 'cause I don't feel like reading through all of it to make sure... But even so, transfiguring is different from the animagus transformation. And I know Sirius said he had simpler emotions as a dog, but there was nothing about him saying he had to turn back or risk losing the more complex human ones. I got the feeling that they would always be there waiting for him no matter how long he spent as a dog. I never really thought about Pettigrew transforming to human while at the Weasleys, just always pictured him spending the entire time as a rat. I do agree Ron's age probably had something to do with why he picked them, though. Erin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 05:59:32 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 05:59:32 -0000 Subject: Flesh-eating slug repellant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98285 wrote: Personally, what I would like to know is, He says he's buying flesh- eating slug repellent because they are destroying his cabbages, but why would a FLESH_EATING slug eat cabbages????? Khilari responded: Possibly it is the slug repellent that is flesh eating, ie. it eats the slugs. Either that or Hagrid has done some highly unusual gardening. Carol: What strikes me as odd (besides the idea of cabbage as "flesh") is that Hagrid would need to go to Knockturn Alley to buy flesh-eating slug *repellant.* Now if he wanted to buy the slugs themselves, Knockturn Alley would be the very place for such obviously Dark creatures. But you'd think he could buy the repellant in Diagon Alley--defense against Dark creatures as opposed to the dark creatures themselves. Anyway, I don't think Hagrid is a bad guy, but that particular story has always smelled fishy to me. Carol From erikal at magma.ca Fri May 14 07:24:28 2004 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 02:24:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship Message-ID: <012f01c43984$7e955a40$548b1a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 98286 Marcus wrote: >The germ of this idea comes from an >interview Rowling once gave. She >was asked about unusual pairings. She >replied that there was one that >nobody had guessed, but went to the very >heart of the series. Perhaps you meant this interview? BBC News June 19, 2003 Jeremy Paxman JEREMY PAXMAN: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that? JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2003/0619-bbcnews-paxman.htm I really don't think the latter part of her statement is related to shipping. From what I can tell, all she does is refuse to deny that there will be unusual ships, but nothing she says seems to imply that there will be. I think the "heart of it all" is something quite unrealted to shipping. >Let's see. She is strong. She seems to >be the leader of the >Slytherin Girls. She made Slytherin >prefect. She could balance Harry >nicely. >She has a good side. She showed genuine >compassion and concern >towards Draco when Buckbeak hurt his arm >in PoA. True, it was >directed towards a scumbag; but if you >hold that against her, then >what does that say about you? More on >this scene later. As for Pansy... I have my doubts that Rowling could build her up enough as a character in the space of two books, especially with her being a Slytherin. It's possible I suppose, but highly unlikely IMO, and, to be frank, I think I'd be a little disappointed that a character who's been such a nonentity through most of the series would snag the lead man. That issue aside, I always had the impression Pansy wasn't as nice as the abovementioned PoA quote might suggest. Doesn't she sneer a lot? I don't have a lot of time to comb through canon at the moment, but I did find this bit in GoF. After Skeeter's article when Hermione begins receiving hate mail and gets the bubotuber puss on her hands: "Hermione was walking towards them across the lawn. Her hands were very heavily bandaged and she looked miserable. Pansy Parkinson was watching her beadily." (472 UK) I don't see much of a good side in that passage. Pansy's gaze has little compassion in it. If she can only show compassion for Draco I don't see a whole lot of hope for getting closer to Harry in the space of two books. Seems to me there's a long way to go before we see a Harry/Pansy ship. Best, Erika (Wolfraven) For friendly shipping discussion join us at The Great Debate http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGreatDebate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri May 14 06:41:04 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 06:41:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius /Snuffles (was : Sirius and Remus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98287 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: Marianne: > What suddenly struck me about "Snuffles" is that it seems to be on a > continuum...something like Snuffles - Sniffles - Snivellus... Geoff: Have to admit it hadn't struck me previously. They are all of course linked linguistically. "Sniffle" and "snivel" are really forms of the same word, the difference being that a "v" is a voiced "f". Perhaps Snapey speaks more loudly than Sirius? :-) From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri May 14 06:49:24 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 06:49:24 -0000 Subject: another foolish question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98288 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: bboy_mn: > The House founder's name was Giffindor, and he founded the House of > Gryffindor, not the house of Griffin. The cornerstone of Gryffindor is > courage, and as others have pointed out, lions are associated with > courage. As a side note, a Gryphon (Griffin) has the body of a lion. > Also, while Gryphons do occur in heraldry, the lion is more common. Geoff: Remember that Gryffindor is a form of the French "Griffon d'or" (golden griffin). Interestingly, I live nowadays in the county of Somerset in the West of England. The coat of arms of the county is a white Griffin on a dark red background - not far removed from that of Gryffindor. Welcome to Harry Potter country :-) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 07:01:01 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 07:01:01 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore Swiping Harry's Memories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98289 Entropy wrote: > > I don't think Dumbledore has tried to keep the pensieve a secret. > Dumbledore keeps it among his various office "instruments", never > really hiding it. I've always assumed that Harry, being raised as a > muggle would never have heard of pensieves, but someone like Arthur > and Molly Weasley probably would have. And IIRC, the only thing > needed for the actual collection of memories is a wand; the pensieve is really a means of storing and accessing these memories later on. Carol: I think one other thing is needed, and badly--skill at legilmency or occlumency. I'm not even sure that Dumbledore (or Voldemort) could remove a memory from someone else's mind with a wand. We've only seen Dumbledore and Snape do it to their own minds. I think you'd have to be reading the person's mind (or rather, seeing a particular memory) either using a spell or with the person's consent. The mind, as Snape tells us, is not a book to be opened up and read at will. I think it would be extremely difficult to access a particular memory in someone else's mind and even if you could do so, it would take great skill to remove it and would be a very dangerous--and invasive--procedure. I have a feeling that Dumbledore uses his skill as a Legilmens as little as possible for that very reason. I also don't think that the memories are stored in the Pensieve; they're only put there to be studied and then put back in the owner's head. They might even escape or evaporate if left around too long; and Snape doesn't want his memories mixed with Dumbledore's or vice versa. Carol, who doubts that we'll see Harry's own memories in the Pensieve From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Fri May 14 07:03:26 2004 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 07:03:26 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS: Possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98290 snip > Here's a thought (and it's way out in left field, so it's okay if > you disagree): Petrified Hermione is clutching a small piece of > paper telling about the Basalisk. However, given Hermione's respect > for books, it seems so unlikely to me that she would _tear_ a page > out of a book - probably a LIBRARY book at that. > > Is it possible that someone left that information for her, or gave > it to her? If so, it of course leads to several questions: Who gave > it to her? How did they get the information about the chamber? And > why did she not say someone gave her the info or left it for her to > find? > > Antigone q. I too am struck upon each reading of COS how unusually out of character it seems to have Hermione rip a page out of book. If her respect for books is as great as mine, ripping a page from a book is INCONCEIVABLE! But, perhaps she had no paper and quill, or no time to copy the info. because the basilisk was in the room? Then, as to "Who gave it to her?" (if anyone did) why not Dobby? He helped Harry in GOF with the gillyweed. It seems unusual to me that Dobby would know all the backstory of the Chamber of Secrets and not want to help Harry out. Even though he tried to keep Harry from going back to Hogwarts, once Harry was there, doesn't it seem that Dobby would do his part to help? Yet, Hermione does have the "aha!" moment, and races off to the library to find the information she knew would be there. This implies that no one gave her the information, she simply deduced it on her own (being the cleverest witch in the class). So, that makes it seem that no one gave her any information about the chamber. Why was Penelope Clearwater in the library if the rest of the school was on its way to the Quidditch field? Is Penelope part of the "something small" in COS? HedwigsTalons From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri May 14 07:44:53 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 07:44:53 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98291 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > Kneasy wrote: > > > I use the word "supposedly" deliberately. > > > > Consider the sequence of events: > > Fudge visits Azkaban the *night before* Sirius' escape. > > Marianne: > > I'm not sure that's true. Fudge gives Sirius the Daily Prophet, but > I haven't found any indication that Sirius escaped the day after. Ah! You've missed it. PoA chap 4 p.54 (UK ed). It's where Harry is eavesdropping on Arthur and Molly: Arthur - 'They didn't report it to the press because Fudge wanted it kept quiet, but Fudge went out to Azkaban the night Black escaped." True, it doesn't look possible that Fudge handed over the Daily Prophet on that occasion, but I doubt Sirius has a subscription for a daily delivery. Someone made sure he got hold of a copy of that particular edition. The guards told Fudge (do Dementors talk? Or are there other guards knocking around the place?) that Black had been talking in his sleep "..for a while now..." But his escape is the night Fudge turns up. What else can a poor conspiracy theorist think - the worst, obviously. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri May 14 07:59:44 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 07:59:44 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors - Sirius's Reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98292 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" > > Marianne: > > As to an earlier question about why the Dementors at Hogwarts seemed > > to affect Sirius more than when he was in prison, I suspect that he > > didn't have a mob of them clustered around his cell, whereas he was > > smack in the midst of one at the edge of the lake. > bboy_mn: > Or perhaps, it was because Sirius didn't have a Godson who loved him > and forgave him when he was in prison. Perhaps, he didn't have the > hope and joy of, for a few brief minutes, knowing he was going to be > free and clear, and able to live a normal life again. > > Perhaps, when that joy, love, forgiveness, and hope were ripped from > him, and he was left with nothing but the hell and horror of Azkaban, > it left him feeling a little under the weather (slighly sarcastic). You're being entirely too reasonable. Most distressing. And anyway when Sirius (supposedly) escaped he must have passed within inches of the Dementors (he does say "they" plural) when he slipped between the bars(?) when they opened the door(?) to give him his meal. Certainly they were much, much closer than the Dementors at the lake - and if the effect produced by a Dementor obeys the Inverse Square Law..... Why would he have to slip between bars if the door was open? Couldn't he do that when they weren't around? Seems a bit odd- like much of his story. Kneasy From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri May 14 08:37:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:37:39 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98293 annemehr wrote: > A small attempt to assuage some of Del's angst, in lieu of chicken > soup which would probably have been a better remedy: Del replies : Thanks anyway :-) I didn't get chicken soup, but several pills to be taken 3 times a day, and believe it or not, one reason I was feeling so fuzzy yesterday is that I actually *forgot* to take those pills once... Lol ! Annemehr wrote : > Well, I went to look up the symbolism linked to stags, to see how a > stag might naturally have been both James' avatar and the symbol of > Harry's protection, and I found this: Del replies : Wow, thank you ! When I said "stag symbol", I wasn't talking about the symbolism of the stag, but just the fact that Harry's Patronus happens to be James's Animagus form (tell you, fuzzy head :-). However, it is *very* interesting to learn of the link between the Stag and the Serpent. Annemehr wrote : > Still, Harry never knew what his patronus would be until he saw > it. Could you believe that it was never any knowledge of Harry's, > but the mere *fact* that James was Harry's protector, that > magically formed the Patronus? Dumbledore said Harry found James > within him. Even though Harry didn't know James' animagus form, > that form was nonetheless the symbol of the man who gave Harry > many of his own traits and fathered him for 15 months. Del replies : That's precisely what's bothering me. Is there a practical reason for Harry's Patronus to be James's Animagus form, or is it all just some kind of mystical mystery ? I guess we would need to know more about Patroni and Animagi to answer that question, though. And I'd like to point out that Harry himself didn't know how peculiar his Patronus was, until DD told him about James's Animagus form. He could have lived all his life without knowing the relationship between his Patronus and his father. I, Del, asked : > > Even after all that time, even after reading so many posts about > > it, I still don't see it, I still don't see that Harry has any > > more love or compassion than any average kid. Harry has a lot of > > qualities, courage and perseverance for example, but he doesn't > > strike me as either particularly loving or exceptionnally > > compassionate. Can someone explain that to me yet again :-) ? Annemehr answered : > There is something to say for him in how *unhesitatingly* he runs > off to "save people." In the day-to-day little things, you don't > see anything special from him, but when he knows someone, or > everyone, is in great danger, he wants to help with very little > thought for his own safety. Del replies : I agree. But I don't think that's just compassion. It's bravery, courage, self-assurance, recklessness, whatever you want, and usually based on compassionate feelings, but it's not exceptional compassion. Most of us, I would think, would have the same impulse to run and help when someone needs help. But the difference with Harry is that most of the time, we stop ourselves for following our impulse. There can be many reasons we do so : - because we know we can't do what it will take, while Harry, on the contrary, has learned through his experiences that he's talented enough, strong enough, and lucky enough to succeed in most attempts; - because we feel someone else would be better entitled to go and do it (firemen, policemen, army, teacher, parent, neighbour...), while Harry was taught by the Dursleys and by later experience that nobody will listen to him and care about the things he cares ; - because we're scared, while Harry has this ability to act first and be scared later (recklessness ?) - etc... So yes Harry is exceptional in the way he just goes and does what needs to be done, no matter how dangerous. But he doesn't do so because he's any more compassionate or loving that most of us. That's strictly IMO, of course. Annemehr wrote : > I also have in mind that he has some growing to do. As he > increases in his general understanding of people, more of his > natural compassion may show through. Del replies : Again, nothing exceptional there either. Most kids are naturally self-centered and learn to open up to others and increase their compassion for others through experience and maturing. But IMO Harry is not exceptionally compassionate for a 15-year-old boy. Annemehr : > For the purpose of the story, though, he doesn't actually need to > be the most loving person in the world to defeat Voldemort, > because there are other things unrelated to his own virtue that > single him out and make him special. Del replies : I think the problem is that DD talked about the power that is studied in the DoM, that Harry has so much of, and that LV doesn't have at all. The most obvious answer is Love, of course. So it would seem that DD is saying that Harry has an exceptional amount of love. But I just don't see that. Annemehr wrote : > Not sure how well I did here... > I hope you feel better soon! > > Annemehr > who thinks neither dying nor living in misery are the worst outcome --that distinction is reserved for turning evil Del replies : Thanks for the post, you did really well. The information on the symbolism of the Stag, in particular, is dead interesting. Thanks for the good wishes too ! And I agree with your opinion about the worst outcome, but I don't want to consider it for Harry, precisely because he *could* turn evil, if he's not careful. But he will be, I have no doubts about that. Del, who thinks Ron and Hermione will be careful for Harry anyway, if Harry isn't careful enough :-) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri May 14 09:01:19 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:01:19 -0000 Subject: Aurors (was : Why were they going to arrest Hagrid?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98294 Steve (bboy_mn) wrote: > Consequently, Umbridge set the Aurors on him. Side note; ever > notice how people who fancy themselves as extremely powerful and > important, always have a group of idiot goons around to do the > actual dirty work? Del replies : I don't want to nitpick, but Aurors are most definitely NOT "idiot goons" ! If I remember well, one needs at least 5 NEWTs to apply for the job, then there's a thorough screening test, and then 3 years of additional studies and training. No idiot goon could ever get through all of that. Del From patientx3 at aol.com Fri May 14 10:21:54 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 10:21:54 -0000 Subject: POA: Scabbers / Pettigrew & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98295 bboy_mn wrote: >>First, what would be the best type of family for Peter to hide with? Then what would be the type of family that would most likely take him in? [snip reasons why the weasleys were a good choice] My theory is that Peter looked at the same issues I have pointed out above, and came to the conclusion that the Weasleys would be an ideal family to be with, and a family with a high likelihood of actually taking him in.<< HunterGreen: But how would he find all this out? Obviously, the Weasley's turned out to be a perfect choice, but how would Peter go about profiling various wizarding families? The only answer I can think of is that he knew of them beforehand, and just had to get them to take him in. bboy_mn: >>As to when all this occured, I'm sure it happened not too long after Voldemort was ripped from his body by Harry. Peter/Scabbers would have been desperate to find someplace safe, as well as some place where he could keep and ear out for news. He probably thought about it a while, and formed the grand plan I have outlined above. I would say that within a month or two of faking his own death, Peter would have become Scabbers-the pet rat.<< HunterGreen: I was thinking that it was later, that he went in hiding as a rat for a while before deciding he needed to find someone to take him in, but your post got me thinking. Why is he called 'Scabbers'? Its a cute enough name, but what if he actually had a scab or some sort of 'in- healing' mark from his missing finger? That could have been what inspired the name (not very important, I know, but interesting at least). From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri May 14 10:28:24 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 10:28:24 -0000 Subject: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship In-Reply-To: <012f01c43984$7e955a40$548b1a40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98296 Erika L (Wolfraven ) wrote: > As for Pansy... I have my doubts that Rowling could build her up > enough as a character in the space of two books, especially with > her being a Slytherin. Del replies : JKR built Luna up enough in one single book that people are pairing her off with both Harry and Ron. On the other hand, she took 2 books to build Cho up but by the end of OoP Harry couldn't care less about Cho anymore. So I think JKR could very well pair Harry with anyone, whether it's someone old or new, without it sounding phony. Moreover, it's *high time* JKR finally builds a strong, real, 3- dimensional Slytherin kid character. So the fact that Pansy is from Slytherin is actually IMO a good point for her. Erika : > It's possible I suppose, but highly unlikely IMO, and, to be > frank, I think I'd be a little disappointed that a character who's > been such a nonentity through most of the series would snag the > lead man. Del replies : But Pansy has *not* been a non-entity. Harry has known her for a very long time, and that's already a miracle. We discovered in OoP that Harry doesn't know the name of one of the boys he's been having Care of Magical Creatures lessons with for 5 years ! That boy was a non-entity all right, but Pansy wasn't. She keeps getting little scenes all throughout the books. By the way, I guess you object to the Luna/Harry pairings then, because if anyone was a non-entity for 4 years, it was Luna. And if it had been up to Harry, things would have stayed that way ! Erika : > That issue aside, I always had the impression Pansy wasn't as nice > as the abovementioned PoA quote might suggest. Doesn't she sneer a > lot? Del replies : But wasn't one of the major lessons Harry learned in OoP that people can change ? James was a total jerk at 15, and Lily despised him completely. Yet she started going out with him barely 2 years later, and then married him. Why couldn't Pansy do the same ? Erika : > I don't have a lot of time to comb through canon at the > moment, but I did find this bit in GoF. After Skeeter's article > when Hermione begins receiving hate mail and gets the bubotuber > puss on her hands: > > "Hermione was walking towards them across the lawn. Her hands were > very heavily bandaged and she looked miserable. Pansy Parkinson > was watching her beadily." (472 UK) > > I don't see much of a good side in that passage. Pansy's gaze has > little compassion in it. Del replies : The adverb "beadily" can mean pretty much anything. It doesn't say that Pansy was laughing, or even smirking. It just says that she was looking at Hermione very attentively. Who are we to guess what's going on in her head ? IIRC, Pansy is the one who's accusing Hermione of being a scarlet woman (I love that phrase :-) in Rita's article, so she's responsible for Hermione getting her hands burned. So of course she's looking at her, beadily or not. But that doesn't mean she's happy with what's going on. For all we know, she might be experiencing strong remorse, and be very sorry for Hermione. After all, Harry tends to act the same way in OoP : do or say hurtful things, and then be sorry when he realises the consequences of his words or actions. And we also have to remember that the story is told from Harry's point of view. And at the precise moment, Harry thinks Pansy is all evil, so of course he sees her in a completely negative light. Erika wrote : > If she can only show compassion for Draco I don't see a whole lot > of hope for getting closer to Harry in the space of two books. Del replies : Take the example of Harry's feelings towards Sirius in PoA. At the beginning of the book, he doesn't even know him. Then he learns about him being an escaped convict, but he doesn't care. Then he becomes aware of a connection between him and Sirius, and still he doesn't care. Then he discovers that Sirius supposedly betrayed his parents, and he suddenly hates Sirius and wants him dead for several months. But when the truth is revealed, he immediately changes his disposition, he wants to live with Sirius, he's completely out of his mind with worry when Sirius is caught, and he takes tremendous risks to save his life. So I don't see why Pansy couldn't come around too and realise that she's been spending her affection on the wrong person. Erika wrote : > Seems to me there's a long way to go before we see a Harry/Pansy > ship. Del replies : Not to me. On the contrary, it seems to me like it could happen very quickly if JKR wants it that way. It took only one conversation with Luna for Harry to stop despising her. I don't see that it would necessarily take much longer for him to change his mind about Pansy. Another possibility we haven't discussed yet is that things would work out through Hermione, as usual. Hermione strongly dislikes Pansy, and the feeling is reciprocal it would seem. But both girls are intelligent, and Pansy has shown that she's got some heart. Moreover, we don't know that Pansy is necessarily terribly happy in Slytherin. She's the leader of the girls' gang, true, but this can be a very lonely position. And as for her on-off relationship with Draco, I'd say it's more off than on, since he didn't even take her to Hogsmeade on the Valentine Day week-end (she went with her gang, and they made fun of Harry and Cho on the way). And finally, we mustn't forget about Viktor. If Pansy is in Slytherin because her family is another one of those Dark Side families, she might have links with Durmstrang and Viktor that we don't know about. It would be very much like JKR to throw such an unlikely link at us. I'm not saying Harry/Pansy *will* happen, I'm just saying it's not at all impossible as far as I can see, considering what we know now. Del, who thinks it's quite revealing of Pansy's inner contradictions that she was wearing a pale pink frilly robe at the Yule Ball... From jinsler3 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 03:51:53 2004 From: jinsler3 at yahoo.com (jinsler3) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 03:51:53 -0000 Subject: Love between Harry and Snape (No! Not like that!) (was Re: A different and total In-Reply-To: <1187312913.20040513193423@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98297 Thursday, May 13, 2004, 7:05:53 PM, Marcus wrote: > > > The germ of this idea comes from an interview Rowling once gave. > > She > > was asked about unusual pairings. She replied that there was one > > that > > nobody had guessed, but went to the very heart of the series. > Susanne wrote: > > To me, it seemed she was referring to *theories* that nobody > had quite guessed, not *pairings*. > > I've searched for the exact wording, but can't find the > interview right now, even though I know I've recently read > it. > > At first the answer seemed related to the pairing and how > she didn't want to ruin people's fun (though she did in a > later interview), but then I thought she moved on to more > general theorizing. I remember that interview as well. It seems odd that she would switch from talking about shipping theories to the mysterious "heart of it all". But what if "the heart of it all" involves not romantic love but some other kind, between the two incredibly unlikely characters of Harry and Snape? This would fit the idea of a pairing that no one had guessed that goes to the the heart of it all. In another interview JKR mentioned that she was shocked that someone would ask about Snape and love, and that she wanted to explain but it would be important in book 7. But why would Snape's love be important unless it related in some way to Harry? Even if Harry found out that Snape and Lily were once an item, that wouldn't be important enough by itself unless it really changed Harry's feelings. I think Snape and Harry will forge a close relationship in Book 7, much like the relationship Harry never had a chance to develop with Sirius, and the bond between them will play a decisive role in the final destruction of Voldemort and/or Harry's survival afterwards. There is already a great deal of evidence that Snape will play a critical role in the last 2 books. Snape is the most important adult character after Dumbledore, now that Sirius is gone. (JKR says that she had to kill Sirius; perhaps he stood in the way of some other character's development?) Snape has close ties to nearly all the important characters and elements of the books: Voldemort, Dumbledore, Hogwarts, the Malfoys, the other Death Eaters, Harry's parents, Sirius and Lupin, even the jinxed DADA job (which I expect him to finally get in book 7). Snape's mysterious past has remained hidden much longer than would seem necessary, if finding it out would not change Harry's or our perception of him. JKR is so secretive of his character that she would not even reveal what form his Boggart or Patronus would take. How could Snape and Harry ever learn to tolerate each other, let alone become close? Their relationship hit absolute bottom at the end of Book 5. Or did it? Though Harry has decided to "always hate Snape," Snape's behavior seemed curiously neutral in their last interaction. I especially wonder how Snape would have ended his final sentence if McGonagall hadn't interrupted him. After some consideration, I think he would have completed it, "...we must simply overlook it this time," or something similar. He was sneering, but Harry thinks all smiles of Snape's are sneers. It will be very interesting to see how Snape treats Harry in book 6, starting on how he accepts Harry into his NEWT-level Potions class (because we all know Harry couldn't be lucky enough to avoid it) even though Harry probably did not get an 'O'. Harry's perception of Snape could be changed by the revelation that Snape once cared deeply for his mother. The Pensieve scene appears to destroy the Snape/Lily theory, but upon closer examination it may subtly reinforce it. The memory was one of 3 that Snape specifically did not want Harry to see at all costs. Yet the abuse that James and Sirius inflicted on him did not seem unique. Likely they brought similar humiliation on him dozens of times. So what about the situation was really special? It occured right after an OWL, but this doesn't seem relevant. There were lots of spectators, but again this probably was almost common. Lily Evans stepped in to defend Snape, and he called her a Mudblood in return. THIS stands out. The reason Snape did not want Harry to see this particular humiliation is that this time, Snape lashed out at Lily. If Snape really cared for her, he would regret this more than any other episode with James and Sirius. WARNING SPECULATION ON END OF BOOK 7 Okay, it's arrogant to assume that I have any clue what will happen, but just in case, if you want to be surprised you may not want to read any further. I expect the final showdown with Voldemort to happen in the Department of Mysteries, specifically in the Death Room. (We know of an Unspeakable named Croaker; given his name, he probably works in the Death Room, so Harry will likely meet him and visit the room at least once more to learn some of the secrets of death researched there.) The DoM has too many critical things not to appear again, and two of them could get rid of the Dark Lord for good. Voldemort could return to use the Time Room to reverse a setback, but Harry will arrive the battle will spill throughout the DoM and Voldemort will be finally destroyed either by the power of Love in the locked room ("power the Dark Lord knows not") or by plunging through the veil with Harry, possibly due to the actions of Neville. The important passage of the prophecy is "And either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives." My interpretation is that Neville is the Other and that the prophecy properly means Neville must kill either Harry or Voldemort by knocking one through the veil, killing both because of their link. So neither Harry or Voldemort will live in the end but Neville will survive. This is where Snape enters. The incredibly unlikely love between Snape and Harry will unlock the locked room and enable Snape to pull Harry back from beyond the veil, saving his life one last time. Of course this would be a one time thing and only possible with the nearby power in the locked room. This is my guess at what the "heart of the matter" is. JKR has said that some have come very close to guessing at it; she has also been particularly excited when someone mentioned Snape in connection with love. Perhaps she referred to the same thing. Whatever happens in books 6 and 7, Snape and Harry's relationship will be one of the most important elements of the plot and play a decisive role in the end of the story. From bcbgx6 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 05:57:21 2004 From: bcbgx6 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 05:57:21 -0000 Subject: Longevity in the Potterverse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98298 Professor Marchbanks did seem phenomenal, didn't she? Her presence in OOTP does a few things. First of all, she makes Dumbledore's age seem less dramatic--there are people in the WW older than he who still work. Second, her comments establish that, at least according to her word, DD was around in time to take OWLS or NEWTS. It's tempting to discount any drama surrounding the ages of DD and Professor Marchbanks. After all, JKR did say that wizards live longer than muggles. Nevertheless, she has stressed DD's age, so her introduction of a character who superannuates DD seems significant. Now I dont' have an OOTP copy nearby, so I must rely on memory. Didn't Marchbanks give the impression that, even back then, she was an examiner, rather than a Hogwarts teacher? As far as her age is concerned, during my first year of teaching I was ten years older than my students. Some teachers are only about three or four years older when they start the job, so Marchbanks might be just old enough to be DD's older sis, but JKR does stress her aged appearance. I'm not convinced that DD or Marchbanks are beneficiaries of Flamel association. Nevertheless, if DD was Flamel's "partner," then it seems reasonable to wonder if he took some elixir. Though he may not be beyond the wizard lifespan, his ability to function as a "worker" might be due to the elixir. Aside from DD and Marchbanks, the only other overt reference to age I can think of regards McGonigall. When she takes stunners to the chest in OOTP, her age is an issue. Just a few thoughts from one who has an interest in longevity in both the WW and the muggle worlds. Brian From Snarryfan at aol.com Fri May 14 09:41:11 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:41:11 -0000 Subject: Snape's inconscious view of Harry and Potter (Yes, I mean the And) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98299 I was thinking about Snape, today, and I had a idea. The problem with certain people after OOTP is that Snape didn't change his attitude after seeing Harry's memories and the similitude between him and Harry. And if he saw it? It is really difficult to change, very frightening, and Snape could be scared to forget the past and go forward. Hatred is easy and comfortable to him; it's familiar. If he sees that Harry's childhood is not what he thought but worse, similar to his own childhood, he'll have to acknowledge that Harry is not James, that James is really gone and that he can't hurt him anymore. He would have to accept that the past is just that, the past, and a new life is here. He would also have to accept what he's done when he was a DE. Yeah, he knows what he did, and he told all (maybe) to Albus, but does he realize or accept it? Could he do like Andrews in Buffy, only he sees his past in such as way as to not see the truth, to stay in his difficult, yes, but so familiar life? Could he be too scared to go forward and repent? Or to go forward at all? He could create in his mind an exaggerated view of Harry's acts to compare them with what he sees -- James -- and not separate the son from the father. He rarely calls him Harry, always Potter, and it help him to keep up the fa?ade. But each year, he sees one or two little things that Harry does and that James would never have done. To ignore them, he insists on returning to Harry's 'arrogance' or something else, and it's more difficult to ignore the truth as time passes. Does someone else find it strange that the same man who read Skeeter's article in class to humiliate Harry never said one word about what he saw concerning the Dursleys? In Occlumency or in class? Why there are no "dear, and you're our saviour", "What, the Golden Boy couldn't defend himself against some *Muggles*?", "In a toilet? What would your fanclub say if they knew that?" It's nearly OOC, and it's not in Snape's character to pass on a chance to ridicule Harry. I think he began to see the real Harry, and it bothers him, so he kept attacking him on a 'safe' subject (so-called stupidity, arrogance, etc.) to stay in his safe 'world'. Every time that Harry reacts, Snape sees Potter, his Harry, the Little James one, and it's what he wants to see. Maybe he deliberately kinda forget what he saw in this effect. (At the same time, the year where someone really sees what the Dursleys have done is the one where someone finally warns the Dursleys in person. Yeah, it could be only a coincidence ;D) What do you think? Christelle (Thanks Dicey Elf!) From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri May 14 11:24:31 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:24:31 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape and Respect In-Reply-To: <40A38392.3544.455AF3E@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98300 Shuan wrote: > > And that starts with minor courtesies. Ginger adds her brass farthing: Shaun, I'm sorry I had to snip all of that. It was a tremendous post. I'd like to comment on your last line, and, knowing me, go off on a tangent. ;) Those "minor courtesies" are the basis of being civil and civilized. If one works with the public, one says "Sir" and "Ma'am" as part of duty. That is expected. No matter how irritating the sir or ma'am may be. "Professor" is expected of students. Most of the past posts on this thread have dealt with whether or not Snape *deserves* respect. I think some of the differing opinions are due to differing concepts of respect. We are respected for what we do, what we are, and what we represent. Virtually every religion or moral code calls for a respect for human life. Each has modifiers (ie. self-defense, war, capital punishment) which can vary greatly. So Snape deserves Harry's respect as a human being, and since Harry hasn't tried to kill him yet, I guess we're on target:) What Snape does, in terms of his treatment of Harry (and a few others) does not deserve respect. He treats him like sh-er, dirt. So no respect there, not that Harry does much better with regards to Snape. What Snape does, in terms of his profession is a mixed bag- good teacher, bad methods. What he does, in terms of the order is yet unknown, but I see in my crystal that he may earn our respect when it is revealed! So, what Snape stands for: He is a teacher at Hogwarts. He represents the school. Respect for him *as a teacher* is required. The use of "Professor" is directly related to his position. (Duh) So, in that capacity, he deserves respect. He is an authority figure. His authority comes from the school. Respect? Definately. If not for him as a person, then out of respect for the school. So, off on the promised tangent- It seems to me that perspective of respect has changed over the years. Back in my day (before the invention of trees), any form of authority was respected- whether it came from age, rank, social status, personal achievements, or any other method. It was earned, although the mere act of breathing longer than others could qualify one. The greater the things that one did, the more respect one got. Nowdays, it seems like respect is expected. Working with the public, I run into a lot of Dracos. Consider how he can go on loudly about the Weasley family or about Harry's parents, or Hermione's blood? He feels he has some sort of right to do that. The second it is turned on him, he howls. Disrespect! No fair! I have no idea how this came about (probably at the time that "disrespect" became a verb-I napped through that change in the language), but I am guessing that it happened during the whole self- esteem movement. We teach kids that they are worthy of respect, but forget to define it. On one level, this is correct. No one deserves to be treated badly. (Back to what we are) But respect of the higher level, to which Snape is entitled as potionmaster, must be earned. I think Dumbledore is quite right in insisting that Harry address Snape in the way he is entitled. Because he has the title. All that said, once Harry is no longer a student, I hope he says to Snape, "You know, Sevvie, I think you're right ba***rd." But until then, Professor it is. Ginger, who really hates those little toe-rags who demand respect, but do nothing to earn it. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri May 14 11:33:16 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:33:16 -0000 Subject: POA: Scabbers / Pettigrew & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98301 > Beth: > > I also wonder how much time Pettigrew had to spend /not/ being > > Scabbers in order to retain himself. Sirius explained that his > > thoughts were less complicated as a dog and he was therefore able > to confuse the Dementors and I thought I remembered reading (FBWTFT? > > Mine went missing after being lent...) that when a vampire > > transfigured into a bat s/he had the intellect of a bat which could > > be very dangerous. So did Pettigrew sneak around the Burrow as > > himself late at night or go out to the grove where the boys > > practiced Quidditch and just stand on two feet for a while? > > > Erin: > Would he have really needed to? I know that's a standard feature in > some other fantasies, but I never got the feeling that it was > nessecary in HP. I dunno about the vampire example... there's not a > listing for them in FB as they are beings, not beasts. It might be > in the introduction though, 'cause I don't feel like reading through > all of it to make sure... > > But even so, transfiguring is different from the animagus > transformation. And I know Sirius said he had simpler emotions as a > dog, but there was nothing about him saying he had to turn back or > risk losing the more complex human ones. I got the feeling that they > would always be there waiting for him no matter how long he spent as > a dog. > > I never really thought about Pettigrew transforming to human while at > the Weasleys, just always pictured him spending the entire time as a > rat. I do agree Ron's age probably had something to do with why he > picked them, though. > > Erin Ginger: I think Erin explained it well. I'm just chiming in to set the record straight on the reference. It was QA in which it was commented that "the witch or wizard who finds him- or herself transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but, having a bat's brain, they are sure to forget where they want to go the moment they take flight." No mention of vampires, although the mental leap is understandable. Ginger, at your service From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri May 14 11:39:01 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:39:01 -0000 Subject: i think i'm onto something - Cedric Diggory! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > So sorry if this has been brought up before. My mother and I were re-reading > GoF and she brought something to my attention and of course I had to > speculate. When H/R/H go to the kitchens and tickle the pear - Harry says > something about having wondered about where that door led ever since he saw > Cedric go through it the night after the names were drawn. > > I think he went to talk to Winky! He probably realized his father was not > with him during the DE appearance at the QWC and went to look. I bet he > suspected his father of some wrong doing and went to question Winky!! It is > obvious that Amos does not like Harry and very obvious IMO that Cedric did > not like the ways of his father. > > What do you guys think? Do I have something? Has this been mentioned before? > Ginger: Oh, dear, Gina, I hate to burst your bubble. You were right about it being the same door Cedric went through to get to his room the night the names were drawn. But the night Harry and friends went down there was after the first task, and Dobby said that he and Winky had only been there for a week. (p. 377 US Paperback) Ginger, who never really liked Amos, but felt sorry for him when Ced died. From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 14 11:39:53 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:39:53 -0000 Subject: a different and totally serious Harry 'ship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98303 Marcus wrote: Looking at the stills from the movie, lo and behold, we find that little Pansy-Draco-bad-arm scene intact. I would thinkthat this would be a prime cutting candidate. But surely the "attack" on Draco by Buckbeak is the reason for him being sentenced to death (BB that is, not Draco, unfortunately) and therefore it is necessary to have this scene in the film. Or is the scene of Pansy comforting Draco a separate one? (Haven't got the book with me and haven't seen the stills). Sylvia From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri May 14 11:45:12 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:45:12 -0000 Subject: Trans-species Shipping (was : Book 7 predictions/oh no fluffy bunnies again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98304 Pippin wrote : > > Who knows, in a few hundred years, it may be students with > > human blood who are the minority at Hogwarts. Carolyn commented : > Now this would be a very contemporary theme to leave us with, not > least for the startling potential it offers the SHIPpers amongst > you . Del cannot help but wonder : Oh-oh ! Interesting possibilities indeed :-) My Inner Eye is opening, I See, I See... Ron could take someone who would fuss over him, someone who would look up at him with admiration in her eyes, someone who would *love* to see him eating all the food she can prepare and more... Of course ! Ron will end up with Winky !! Hermione now. She needs someone strong, someone intelligent, someone whose knowledge she would admire, but also someone who would make her heart beat harder and faster. Hmmm, I think Hermione will be in for a big surprise the day she has a real chat with Firenze ! As for Harry... Harder, much harder... He's learned that beauty doesn't matter, he would need someone who knows how to take care of all his money, and someone who wouldn't fawn over him just because he's Famous Harry Potter. So I think there's a female attendant at Gringotts whose life will be turned upside down next time Harry goes to get some money out of his vault... Del, who hopes to make a few people laugh as much she is right now :- D From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Fri May 14 11:50:15 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:50:15 -0000 Subject: Neville's powers and The Other In-Reply-To: <051320042320.28771.40A402CE0006D4AF000070632161243646FF9B969A8DD19BD19190@att.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pouncevil at A... wrote: > In Book One SS/PS Hagrid says "that he's had his name down since the day he was born." That means that he was not a squib nor did all of his powers come form Lord Thingy. That means that he was a wizard form birth. He may have gained power but he already had them from birth. > > -- > Ronald D. Reid AmanitaMuscaria now: It's interesting that you concentrate on Harry possibly not having powers - in PS, after the sorting hat when they're all talking about their backgrounds, Neville says ...'but the family thought I was all Muggle for ages. ...' (PS The Sorting Hat) Now, why would Neville refer to himself as a Muggle and not as a Squib? He's been brought up in the magical world, and would know the different terms, wouldn't he? He may have been hidden because he's 'The Other' or for a different reason, but for someone whose powers have been very downplayed, he's had a lot of pagetime. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri May 14 13:00:03 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:00:03 -0000 Subject: Neville's powers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98306 AmanitaMuscaria: > Now, why would Neville refer to himself as a Muggle and not as a > Squib? He's been brought up in the magical world, and would know the > different terms, wouldn't he? He may have been hidden because > he's 'The Other' or for a different reason, but for someone whose > powers have been very downplayed, he's had a lot of pagetime. I fear the reason is that JKR didn't want to introduce the concept of a Squib (as a social category - the idea that you can be born to wizards without powers is of course implicit in what Neville's saying) at that point. In COS Neville does say something like 'everyone knows I'm practically a Squib'. His powers are evident if you look carefully, of course; see http://elkins.theennead.com/hp/neville.html (you will have to scroll a little way down). David From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 14 13:26:50 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:26:50 -0000 Subject: Snape's inconscious view of Harry and Potter (Yes, I mean the And) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98307 Christelle wrote: > > He could create in his mind an exaggerated view of Harry's acts to > compare them with what he sees -- James -- and not separate the son > from the father. He rarely calls him Harry, always Potter, and it > help him to keep up the fa?ade. Potioncat: I think the only student Snape ever calls by first name is Draco and that not until OoP. > Christelle: > Does someone else find it strange that the same man who read > Skeeter's article in class to humiliate Harry never said one word > about what he saw concerning the Dursleys? In Occlumency or in class? > > Why there are no "dear, and you're our saviour", "What, the Golden > Boy couldn't defend himself against some *Muggles*?", "In a > toilet? What would your fanclub say if they knew that?" It's > nearly OOC, and it's not in Snape's character to pass on a chance to ridicule Harry. Potioncat: I think, but could be wrong, that the only time Snape ridicules Harry is in front of Draco. He makes his life miserable in other ways at other times, but usually a "reasonable" explanation can be found. So he chides Harry for wanting to be important because he thinks its Harry's motivation for not trying harder in occlumency. But Snape doesn't want or need to bring up Harry's embarrassing moments. I tried skimming through OoP to see how Snape speaks to Harry in potions. We mostly get dropped vials and "D's" So we don't know what's happening there, except that, as you say, Snape isn't bringing up anything from occlumency. I was wondering if part of the reason for the D's was to be able to justify remedial potions if Umbridge was to inquire. Of course, Snape could hardly bring the occlumency stuff up in class...how would he "know" those things. > Christelle: > (At the same time, the year where someone really sees what the > Dursleys have done is the one where someone finally warns the Dursleys > in person. Yeah, it could be only a coincidence ;D) Potioncat: I never caught that! We haven't seen Harry complain to anyone about them, yet the gang showed up to protect him....good point! I'll bet Harry doesn't put it together either. Potioncat From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri May 14 13:31:37 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:31:37 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98308 Interrupting this fascinating exchange between Del & Annemehr to insert my two knuts...and hoping they don't mind. :-) Annemehr wrote : > > Still, Harry never knew what his patronus would be until he saw > > it. Could you believe that it was never any knowledge of Harry's, > > but the mere *fact* that James was Harry's protector, that > > magically formed the Patronus? Dumbledore said Harry found James > > within him. Even though Harry didn't know James' animagus form, > > that form was nonetheless the symbol of the man who gave Harry > > many of his own traits and fathered him for 15 months. Del replies : > That's precisely what's bothering me. Is there a practical reason > for Harry's Patronus to be James's Animagus form, or is it all just > some kind of mystical mystery ? I guess we would need to know more > about Patroni and Animagi to answer that question, though. > And I'd like to point out that Harry himself didn't know how > peculiar his Patronus was, until DD told him about James's Animagus > form. He could have lived all his life without knowing the > relationship between his Patronus and his father. Siriusly Snapey Susan: I vote for "mystical mystery," Del. Yes, indeed. I think it's one of those magical links between parent & child...maybe kind of like twins separated at birth who end up with the same bizarre, esoteric hobby or something. We can't explain why...but it's cool! Annemehr answered : > > There is something to say for him in how *unhesitatingly* he runs > > off to "save people." In the day-to-day little things, you don't > > see anything special from him, but when he knows someone, or > > everyone, is in great danger, he wants to help with very little > > thought for his own safety. Del replies : > I agree. But I don't think that's just compassion. It's bravery, > courage, self-assurance, recklessness, whatever you want, and > usually based on compassionate feelings, but it's not exceptional > compassion. So yes Harry is exceptional in the way he just > goes and does what needs to be done, no matter how dangerous. But > he doesn't do so because he's any more compassionate or loving that > most of us. That's strictly IMO, of course. Again, nothing exceptional there either. Most kids are > naturally self-centered and learn to open up to others and increase > their compassion for others through experience and maturing. But > IMO Harry is not exceptionally compassionate for a 15-year-old boy. Siriusly Snapey Susan: I agree that Harry's compassion isn't exceptional for a 15-year-old. But see the following.... Annemehr : > > For the purpose of the story, though, he doesn't actually need to > > be the most loving person in the world to defeat Voldemort, > > because there are other things unrelated to his own virtue that > > single him out and make him special. Del replies : > I think the problem is that DD talked about the power that is > studied in the DoM, that Harry has so much of, and that LV doesn't > have at all. The most obvious answer is Love, of course. So it > would seem that DD is saying that Harry has an exceptional amount > of love. But I just don't see that. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Del, what if the power isn't "just" love but **sacrificial** love? THAT I think Harry does have in exceptional amount. It's part of what makes him willing to go off and do those brave, courageous (reckless, poorly thought out) tasks & rescues that you mentioned previously. I think his willingness to put himself Out There, to face the danger, in order to help or save someone--or to stop someone he thinks is evil--is what makes Harry different from many others his age. Sacrificial Love. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Siriusly Snapey Susan From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 14 13:37:48 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:37:48 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98309 > Del replies : >> That's precisely what's bothering me. Is there a practical reason for Harry's Patronus to be James's Animagus form, or is it all just some kind of mystical mystery ? I guess we would need to know more about Patroni and Animagi to answer that question, though. And I'd like to point out that Harry himself didn't know how peculiar his Patronus was, until DD told him about James's Animagus form. He could have lived all his life without knowing the relationship between his Patronus and his father.<< Pippin: Er, I hate to give a slap-yourself-on-the-forehead answer, but Harry lived with his parents for a year. Couldn't James have taken stag form to amuse his infant son? We know that Harry's earliest memories often surface in his dreams...the green flash, Voldemort's laughter, the flying motorcycle. Well, remember the dream Harry has right after he first conjures his corporeal patronus? **** He had a very strange dream. He was walking through a forest, his Firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery-white. It was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch glimpses of it through the leaves. Anxious to catch up with it, he sped up, but as he moved faster, so did his quarry. Harry broke into a run, and ahead he heard hooves gathering speed. Now he was running flat out, and ahead he could hear galloping. Then he turned a corner into a clearing and-- **** PoA ch 13 > Del replies [on the subject of whether Harry is compassionate] : > I agree. But I don't think that's just compassion. It's bravery, courage, self-assurance, recklessness, whatever you want, and usually based on compassionate feelings, but it's not exceptional compassion. Most of us, I would think, would have the same impulse to run and help when someone needs help. But the difference with Harry is that most of the time, we stop ourselves for following our impulse. There can be many reasons we do so : . But he doesn't do so because he's any more compassionate or loving that most of us. << Pippin: Ah...but you're judging Harry by his abilities, aren't you? He doesn't have the ability to feel more compassion than most people, therefore he isn't more compassionate than most people. But his choices, as you say yourself, *are* more compassionate than most peoples'. He chooses, time and again, to put himself in danger for the sake of others, when most of us would not. And Dumbledore, who thinks it is our choices that show what we are, considers him to be an extraordinarily compassionate young man. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 14 13:39:19 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:39:19 -0000 Subject: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship and other friendships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98310 Marcus wrote: > I haven't posted here for many months. So I checked back clear > through December to see if anybody has seriously posted what I am > about to suggest. I found nothing but a few gag posts. So here goes. > > Harry will not end up with Hermione, Ginny, Fleur, Luna, Parvati, or > any of the other usual suspects. He will end up with Pansy Parkinson. Potioncat: I'm not a shipper. I'm not sure that romantic situations need to be resolved by the end of book 7. While some RW and WW couples do form in their teens, most don't. Having said that, your idea has some merit. And it made me think, what if Harry is in Potions but Draco isn't? How will Snape treat him then? (I'm sure Draco could make an O in Potions OWLS, but what if his chosen field of study doesn't require potions or leave him time for it?) It will be a smaller class and the houses will be mixing more I'd think. Harry might also get the chance to know Nott and the other Slytherin boy. Potioncat From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri May 14 13:43:13 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:43:13 -0000 Subject: Love between Harry and Snape (No! Not like that!) (was Re: A different and total In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98311 Marcus wrote: >>> The germ of this idea comes from an interview Rowling once gave. She was asked about unusual pairings. She replied that there was one that nobody had guessed, but went to the very heart of the series.<<< Susanne wrote: >> To me, it seemed she was referring to *theories* that nobody had quite guessed, not *pairings*. I've searched for the exact wording, but can't find the interview right now, even though I know I've recently read it. At first the answer seemed related to the pairing and how she didn't want to ruin people's fun (though she did in a later interview), but then I thought she moved on to more general theorizing.<< Jinsler wrote: > I remember that interview as well. It seems odd that she would > switch from talking about shipping theories to the > mysterious "heart of it all". But what if "the heart of it all" > involves not romantic love but some other kind, between the two > incredibly unlikely characters of Harry and Snape? This would fit > the idea of a pairing that no one had guessed that goes to the the > heart of it all. In another interview JKR mentioned that she was > shocked that someone would ask about Snape and love, and that she > wanted to explain but it would be important in book 7. But why > would Snape's love be important unless it related in some way to > Harry? Siriusly Snapey Susan: This may seem to be nitpicking, but I think that JKR was talking about Snape and *redemption,* not Snape and *love.* Here's the interview from 1999: ***************** One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape. He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. ****************** SSSusan continues: It seems to me that the love issue was over after JKR's "very horrible idea" remark. They then moved onto the "important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape" which stunned JKR and which she said we'd understand in book 7. I'm not saying that the relationship between Harry & Snape won't change, but just that I don't think love may be the word to use.... Siriusly Snapey Susan From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri May 14 13:54:42 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:54:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: i think i'm onto something - Cedric Diggo ry! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98312 Gina: > So sorry if this has been brought up before. My mother and I were re-reading > GoF and she brought something to my attention and of course I had to > speculate. When H/R/H go to the kitchens and tickle the pear - Harry says > something about having wondered about where that door led ever since he saw > Cedric go through it the night after the names were drawn. > > I think he went to talk to Winky! He probably realized his father was not > with him during the DE appearance at the QWC and went to look. I bet he > suspected his father of some wrong doing and went to question Winky!! It is > obvious that Amos does not like Harry and very obvious IMO that Cedric did > not like the ways of his father. > > What do you guys think? Do I have something? Has this been mentioned before? > > Gina -desperately seeking a clue! > Tcy: Maybe I'm missing something...but why would Cedric Diggory be looking for the Crouch's ex-house elf, Winky? Are you suggesting that Amos Diggory had something to do with either Crouch, Sr. or Crouch, Jr.? Gina again: YES! I think it is something we should all have been suspicious of, but overlooked with everything else going on. Cedric was always telling people to overlook or ignore his father. Cedric was a modest and great person BUT his father is an arrogant braggart with obvious dislike of Harry Potter. Where was Amos during that seen with Winky in the QWC woods? Think about it! I bet Cedric was curious and went secretly to speak to Winky. I am not sure if Amos knew about Crouch Jr, but I am sure he is up to something and that we will hear more about this soon! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri May 14 13:56:55 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:56:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail's silver hand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98313 "Ashley": I am new here so I don't know wether this has been brought up before but has anyone besides me think that in the future books JKR might make Wormtail kill Lupin with his new SILVER hand. After all you can only kill a werewolf with silver. Just wondering. Please tell me if any of you have thought this too. Thanks. (snip) Gina chiming in: Thank you! Yes, I have always thought that though I hate to see it happen. If LV was giving a better hand for any other reason why not gold which is thought of as being better than silver? I say you are right on the money! Gina - who loves Lupin and hopes he comes out on top ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Fri May 14 13:54:47 2004 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:54:47 EDT Subject: a Lupin and a werewolf question Message-ID: <1e3.2053a184.2dd629a7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98314 Hi. I haven't found an answer but maybe I haven't searched correctly??? Anyway, I was reading the WWP book about the "Mysteries of Harry Potter" and they list various reasons they think Lupin is actually James Potter, that Lupin and James did a switching spell before "James" and Lily were killed, and they have various quotes from the books to back it up. I admit, I wondered myself when I read Lupin started to squeeze Harry's shoulder and then thought better of it, when he paled when Lily's death was mentioned, when he said "when *we* could all transform" and several other instances. My question is -- what's the general consensus among the fans? Do most readers think Lupin is actually James? Another Lupin question -- a werewolf question, actually. If you become a werewolf from being bitten, is there danger of becoming a werewolf if you get a werewolf's blood in an open wound of yours (similar to the way people can get HIV from "bodily fluids" of an infected person)? And if a werewolf is injured (I know he can only be killed by a silver bullet), his wounds heal on their own, right? Magically? But they can leave scars, I would imagine. I really like Lupin and am curious about these things. The werewolf research I've done online has just confused me more. Hopefully, someone here can help me out! Thanks! Lynda * * * ". . .the cat's among the pixies now." Mrs. Figg, OoP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri May 14 14:41:12 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:41:12 -0000 Subject: Lupin-James switch (was: Re: a Lupin and a werewolf question) In-Reply-To: <1e3.2053a184.2dd629a7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98315 artsylynda at a... wrote: > Anyway, I was reading the WWP book about the "Mysteries of Harry > Potter" and they list various reasons they think Lupin is actually > James Potter, that Lupin and James did a switching spell > before "James" and Lily were killed, and they have various quotes > from the books to back it up. My question is -- what's the > general consensus among the fans? Do most readers think Lupin is > actually James? Siriusly Snapey Susan: I guess my whole problem with the Lupin-James switch idea is...to what END would this have been done? Why would Lupin have been "expendable" and James not? If a switch did happen and Lupin died, why continue to keep James undercover--why not let him "come back" and raise his son? And KEY, for me, is this: If it's *Harry* who's the one who has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, then why would James be necessary to keep alive? Surely continuing a ruse like that for all those years...allowing Harry to believe his father was dead when he wasn't...there would have to be a HUGE reason why James had to be kept alive? But what would that reason be, if Harry's "the one"?? I'm curious why--other than the mere fact of those interesting comments from canon that *could* support it--this is such a popular theory. Anyone care to chime in or to answer the questions I have? Siriusly Snapey Susan From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri May 14 15:20:33 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:20:33 -0000 Subject: Lupin-James switch (was: Re: a Lupin and a werewolf question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98316 > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > I guess my whole problem with the Lupin-James switch idea is...to > what END would this have been done? Why would Lupin have > been "expendable" and James not? If a switch did happen and Lupin > died, why continue to keep James undercover--why not let him "come > back" and raise his son? And KEY, for me, is this: If it's *Harry* > who's the one who has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, then why > would James be necessary to keep alive? Surely continuing a ruse > like that for all those years...allowing Harry to believe his father > was dead when he wasn't...there would have to be a HUGE reason why > James had to be kept alive? But what would that reason be, if > Harry's "the one"?? > > I'm curious why--other than the mere fact of those interesting > comments from canon that *could* support it--this is such a popular > theory. Anyone care to chime in or to answer the questions I have? Jen: The only reason I can think of to justify the Lupin-James switch theory would be if the "Potter line" is somehow the important factor. I can't buy that idea though, because it would promote blood- elitism in a different way from LV's pure-blood mania. *And* change the whole force behind the story! Nah, I'm with you Susan. It doesn't further the story, and would fall under the conned-not-tricked assumption that JKR uses for her readers. "Readers loved to be tricked, but not conned" JKR, Reader's Digest, 2000 Jen For more HP discussion, visit the friendly neighborhood pub at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/ From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri May 14 15:40:06 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:40:06 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin-James switch (was: Re: a Lupin and a werewolf question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002001c439c9$bc63bfc0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 98317 artsylynda at a... wrote: > Anyway, I was reading the WWP book about the "Mysteries of Harry > Potter" and they list various reasons they think Lupin is actually > James Potter, that Lupin and James did a switching spell > before "James" and Lily were killed, and they have various quotes > from the books to back it up. My question is -- what's the > general consensus among the fans? Do most readers think Lupin is > actually James? Sherry says: I hope this does not turn out to be the case. JKR has said that Harry's parents won't come back, that when you're dead, you're dead. But mostly, I think it would be so cruel to Harry to have had his father alive all this time and not know it. What a terrible thing to do to him, allowing him to be raised by the Weasleys ... everything he's been through, and all the time his father was secretly alive. If it was me, I don't know if I could ever forgive that. Sherry G From antigone_q at yahoo.com Fri May 14 15:48:25 2004 From: antigone_q at yahoo.com (Rebecca D.) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:48:25 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS: Possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > Antigone q. followed up: > > Re-reading your post, I just want to say that it was NOT that > > exact phrase - it was only something similar. Like I said, I'll > > cite my reference when I'm at home and can give the exact quote. > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan again: > Antigone, if it wasn't that exact quote, perhaps it was this one-- > which is as close as I've seen anything come to "nearly gave it all > away": > > [From #82940, where Joj wrote:] > I've been thinking about this quote from JKR. > > "Key things happen in book two. No one knows how important those > things are... yet. There's a lot in there. And I know how difficult > it was to get it all in there without drawing too much attention to > the clues." > http://filmforce.ign.com/harrypotter/articles/377/377244p1.html? > fromint=1 > > Let me know, please, if that's the one or if your source was > something different. There are a *lot* of people who've tried to > nail down this "nearly gave it all away" thing.... > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Yes, you're right. I went home and watched the DVD interview and in my mind I had spliced those comments with the interview you quoted above. Antigone q From antigone_q at yahoo.com Fri May 14 15:52:29 2004 From: antigone_q at yahoo.com (Rebecca D.) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:52:29 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS: Possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98319 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hedwigstalons" wrote: > snip > > > Here's a thought (and it's way out in left field, so it's okay if > > you disagree): Petrified Hermione is clutching a small piece of > > paper telling about the Basalisk. However, given Hermione's > respect > > for books, it seems so unlikely to me that she would _tear_ a page > > out of a book - probably a LIBRARY book at that. > > > > > > > > Antigone q. > > I too am struck upon each reading of COS how unusually out of > character it seems to have Hermione rip a page out of book. If her > respect for books is as great as mine, ripping a page from a book is > INCONCEIVABLE! But, perhaps she had no paper and quill, or no time to > copy the info. because the basilisk was in the room? > > Then, as to "Who gave it to her?" (if anyone did) why not Dobby? > Why was Penelope Clearwater in the library if the rest of the school > was on its way to the Quidditch field? > > Is Penelope part of the "something small" in COS? > > HedwigsTalons That seems like a good possibility. Dobby was privy to all kinds of information in the Malfoy household. Antigone Q From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri May 14 15:59:30 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 10:59:30 -0500 Subject: help me with the Riddles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98320 Okay guys. My mother and I are going back through all the books in our own sick effort to see if we can solve it all. I have seen lots of posts about the first chapter of GoF where people say that the three people were Tom Sr. and his parents (LV's father and grandparents). Can someone tell me if there is proof of this or if it is just a theory? Has JKR said this in an interview or did I miss something in the books? Did it say when those deaths took place? Gina A. Miller [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri May 14 16:01:31 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:01:31 -0000 Subject: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98321 Marcus wrote: > Harry will not end up with Hermione, Ginny, Fleur, Luna, Parvati, >or any of the other usual suspects. He will end up with Pansy >Parkinson. > The germ of this idea comes from an interview Rowling once gave. >She was asked about unusual pairings. She replied that there was >one that nobody had guessed, but went to the very heart of the >series. Mandy here: I'm not a big shipper, although if forced to have an opinion, I am for a lifelong tragic, unrequited H/H relationship with poor Ron left out in the cold to stew in a jealous rage until he does something stupid that will threaten all their lives. But, I must confess I don't really understand the urge that some fans have to marry off all the kids to each other before their 18th birthdays. The books will end at the end of Harry's 7th school year with no time for walking down the aisle, except perhaps by a wild child like one of the Weasly twins. We have Harry's parents marrying very young, sometime during their 19th or 20th years of age, but if history is to repeat itself, as it often does, we won't be around to witness it. There are no books 8 or 9 and I'm afraid you are all doomed to ship for eternality, as no resolution is forthcoming imo. If there are to be any important parings, they will be between the adults of the story, and my money is on Snape. There has to be a deep connection between Snape and Harry that goes further than Snape's life dept to Harry's father. And I think it has to do with Lily. Also there has to be another deep connection between Snape and Sirius that will explain the full extent of the rage between them. Sirius trying to kill Snape at 16 not the just the result of teenage bulling and is so far from just a 'prank' as to be unbelievable. I'm not a Sirius fan, and am under no delusions as to his character, believing him to be selfish, petulant and arrogant. And yes, we're all foolish at 16, but we also know where to draw the line if the result is clear, and it was clear to all that Werewolf/Lupin would and could willingly kill any human he came face to face with. Sirius knew that, and he was trying to walk the path of good having begun to turn on his dark family. Premeditated assault and attempted murder at 16 is serious business, and I guess I need to believe there has to be some huge betrayal behind it that we don't yet know about. Maybe it is a simple as Sirius trying to do James a favor by getting his best buddy crushes boyfriend out of the way? I can see James sitting under that tree, watching Lily talking to Snape and casually stating that he wished Snape would just die. Would Sirius jump that high for James? And to do something that extreme for your friend? There would have to be more than just fraternal love between Sirius and James Potter. (Which I would love to see but is tad controversial even for 21st century children's literature.) And then to have James disrespecting Sirius' helping hand by saving Snape' life? Potent stuff. Who knows! Cheers Mandy From probono at rapidnet.com Fri May 14 16:26:43 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:26:43 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape and Respect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98323 First, this conversation between Harry and Dumbledore from pgs 241-2 of Sorcerer's Stone: "Quirrell said Snape --" "Professor Snape, Harry." "Yes, him -- Quirrell said he hates me because he hated my father. Is that true?" "Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy. And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive." Why would DD correct Harry and then go on to use just "Snape" in conversation? Also, even though we know Hagrid respects and admires Dumbledore more than anybody else in the world, he still calls him just "Dumbledore" in conversation. Just a note . :D probono From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri May 14 16:27:05 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:27:05 -0000 Subject: help me with the Riddles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98324 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: Gina A. Miller: > Okay guys. My mother and I are going back through all the books in our own > sick effort to see if we can solve it all. I have seen lots of posts about > the first chapter of GoF where people say that the three people were Tom Sr. > and his parents (LV's father and grandparents). Can someone tell me if there > is proof of this or if it is just a theory? Geoff: Canon seesm to imply this... "Elderly Mr. and Mrs.Riddle had been rich, snobbish and rude and their grown-up son, Tom, had been even more so." (GOF "The Riddle House" p.8 UK edition) "Frank was stubbornly repeating, again and again, that he was innocent and that the only person he ahd seen near the house on the day of the Riddles' death had been a stranger, dark haired and pale." (Same chapter p.9) "My father's bone, naturally, meant that we would have to come here, where he was buried." (Voldemort's words) (GOF "The Death Eaters" p.569 UK edition) Tom was a teenager 50 years ago at Hogwarts. The character descriptions certainly fit those of his father - living as a widower with his grandparents. I assume that the house is the same... There is agreement in the descriptions. "It stood on a hill overlooking the village..... ...Once a fine- looking manor and easily the largest and grandest building for miles around, the Riddle House was now damp, derelict and unoccupied." (GOF "The Riddle House" p.7 UK edition) "A hill rose above them to their left.Harry could just make out the outline of a fine old house on the hillside." (GOF "Flesh,Blood and Bone" p.552 UK edition) I think the evidence is good enough for me..... From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri May 14 16:32:57 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:32:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: help me with the Riddles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98325 Gina A. Miller: > Okay guys. My mother and I are going back through all the books in our own > sick effort to see if we can solve it all. I have seen lots of posts about > the first chapter of GoF where people say that the three people were Tom Sr. > and his parents (LV's father and grandparents). Can someone tell me if there > is proof of this or if it is just a theory? Geoff: Canon seesm to imply this... "Elderly Mr. and Mrs.Riddle had been rich, snobbish and rude and their grown-up son, Tom, had been even more so." (GOF "The Riddle House" p.8 UK edition) "Frank was stubbornly repeating, again and again, that he was innocent and that the only person he ahd seen near the house on the day of the Riddles' death had been a stranger, dark haired and pale." (Same chapter p.9) "My father's bone, naturally, meant that we would have to come here, where he was buried." (Voldemort's words) (GOF "The Death Eaters" p.569 UK edition) Tom was a teenager 50 years ago at Hogwarts. The character descriptions certainly fit those of his father - living as a widower with his grandparents. I assume that the house is the same... There is agreement in the descriptions. "It stood on a hill overlooking the village..... ...Once a fine- looking manor and easily the largest and grandest building for miles around, the Riddle House was now damp, derelict and unoccupied." (GOF "The Riddle House" p.7 UK edition) "A hill rose above them to their left.Harry could just make out the outline of a fine old house on the hillside." (GOF "Flesh,Blood and Bone" p.552 UK edition) I think the evidence is good enough for me..... __________________ Gina: Okay, thanks. But does it say when the Riddles died? Does it give an approximate year this happened? Because unless the murder happened 50 years ago this could not be true. I agree with you, but unless we know when the three Riddles were killed we cannot say for sure which Riddles they were. Gina ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From burgess at cynjut.net Fri May 14 16:35:09 2004 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:35:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <1084316120.6177.18558.m25@yahoogroups.com> References: <1084316120.6177.18558.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <33325.143.250.2.102.1084552509.squirrel@www4.neonramp.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98326 >> > Potioncat: >> > I know he's always corrected if he refers to "Snape." but does >> > he ever refer to other adults with just last name in front of an >> > adult? > >> Geoff: >> I haven't had time to go through with a fine toothcomb but, >> certainly in Dumbledore's presence, Harry refers to "Quirrell" in >> PS and "Umbridge" in OOTP. There could be others. He also refers >> to "Snape" in Hagrid's company and I think there are again other >> references with him. > > >Siriusly Snapey Susan: >I think if that's true with Quirrell, I wonder if it was after he >was found out as The Bad Guy? For Umbridge, I imagine it's because >NO ONE--staff included--respects her, and they know she's no >professor. With Snape, though, I think DD points it out over & over >because he believes that Snape is the person Harry most needs to >remember *is* deserving of respect. Around staff members, have we >ever heard the trio say just "McGonagall" or "Lupin" or "Flitwick" >or "Sprout"? Yet his consistently saying just "Snape" to DD >probably is something DD can't help noticing & remarking upon. > >As much as I despise Snape's methods with Harry and, esp., Neville, >I think DD is right to call Harry on this disrespectfulness. It >can't do anything to help improve his situation with Snape--er, with >Professor Snape. I retired from the US Air Force about five years ago, and one of the things that we stressed was the proper use of titles. Bear in mind that the military is a much more formal organization than a school or even the WW, and I don't know if JKR is using the same rules, but here are how we used to work things: - In general, it is disrespectful to refer to someone simply by their last name. Using a person's last name to refer to them was nearly always considered a sign on lack of regard for that person; this is especially true of people of higher rank, although it's pretty universal. - Your own family members are always referred to by first name, or 'position' as in 'my husband, my wife, my kids, my son Kevin'. - Other people's family members in a 'workcenter' setting can be referred to by first name if they are familiar to you. It's the 'tu' vs. 'vous' rules in French. If you've been invited to someone's home, you can refer to the people you met there by first name, unless there's ambiguity. Outside the workcenter setting, title and last name were the only acceptable references. So, in almost any group setting, my wife would always be Mrs. Burgess. - People in your workcenter that are 'about the same rank' as you can be referred to by first name, unless that causes confusion. In that case, you should refer to them by title and last name. - When dealing with someone outside your workcenter, or when dealing with people that are not 'about' the same rank as you, title and last name is the only correct reference. Special definitions: For purposes of the list, a 'workcenter' would be considered a Hogwarts House. So, within the common room, Harry might refer to Hermione, Fred, George, Luna, etc. The term 'about the same rank' indicates status - students are about the same rank, teachers are about the same rank, etc. In the military, it's a little more stratified. So, in a Hogwarts setting, here is how I would expect people to discuss one another: When a student is talking to - a teacher about a teacher: title and last name - a teacher (other than their head of house) about another student: first and last name - a student about a teacher: title and last name - a student about another student: first name Teachers will always use title and last name, unless they are discussing a peer with a peer. Even then, the context of the discussion would drive the use of first names. If I'm expressing a personal statement of, say, concern, I would use the person's first name in a public context only if we were peers. Otherwise, even though we are peers, I would use title and last name. Of course, there are always exceptions; for example, some people prefer to use their last name as a nickname. Hagrid could fall into this category; it pays homage to his giant heritage, where everyone only has one name. Once Dumbledore, whom we know hold Rubeus in high regard, refers to him simply as Hagrid, the appelation sticks. I don't get a sense that it's being disrespectful. I get the sense that this is the name that he prefers. References to Umbridge, Malfoy and Snape would fit the classic usage of the last name by itself, since our young trio carries a certain amount of animosity towards these individuals. On the other hand, referring to Quirrell (before the end of PS/SS) or Lupin any way other than Professor would indicate a certain level of disdain for them. The same could be said of Dumbledore. I should also come clean and say that, as the comfort level goes up and in a small group, people will refer to a person by their last name only as a shorthand reference. It's not supposed to happen (as it has a negative impact on good order and discipline) but it does sometimes. Usually, it starts with one or two references, and pretty soon no one has a title. This is considered a bad thing. -- Dave Burgess From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri May 14 16:39:45 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:39:45 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98327 Pippin: Ah...but you're judging Harry by his abilities, aren't you? He doesn't have the ability to feel more compassion than most people, therefore he isn't more compassionate than most people. But his choices, as you say yourself, *are* more compassionate than most peoples'. He chooses, time and again, to put himself in danger for the sake of others, when most of us would not. And Dumbledore, who thinks it is our choices that show what we are, considers him to be an extraordinarily compassionate young man. vmonte responds: Good point, Pippin. I think you're absolutely right! Time and again Harry chooses to do what is right! It's his humanity towards others that sets him apart. He struggles with guilt, fear, jealousy, hate, just like the rest of us; but he always chooses to do what is right. He is even able to feel compassion for Snape and Petunia, two people he has every right to dislike. Instead of laughing at Snape's misfortune in the penseive, he is able to feel compassion. Harry was capable of separating his own feelings towards Snape. He understood that the treatment Snape received by his father (who he idolized) and his freinds was wrong. He also feels compassion for Petunia after she receives the Howler. He realizes that Petunia's world has crumbled in on her. Her struggle to deny the existance of the WW, has been lost -- and has finally crossed over with a vengeance. When she hears that Voldemort is back she appears defeated and scared. This is when Harry realizes that Petunia is his mother's sister... Harry may not like Petunia or Snape but he is capable of feeling compassion for them. Snape and Petunia on the other hand, are incapable of separating Harry from Lily (in Petunia's case) and Harry from James (in Snape's case). They have (up to this point) not been able to grow emotionally as characters because they are trapped in the past. vmonte From probono at rapidnet.com Fri May 14 16:44:14 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:44:14 -0000 Subject: help me with the Riddles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98328 > > > > Gina: > Okay, thanks. But does it say when the Riddles died? Does it give an > approximate year this happened? Because unless the murder happened 50 years > ago this could not be true. I agree with you, but unless we know when the > three Riddles were killed we cannot say for sure which Riddles they were. > > Gina > Probono: Does this work? "Fifty years before, at daybreak on a fine summer's morning when the Riddle House had still been well kept and impressive, a maid had entered the drawing room to find all three Riddles dead." It was all I could find... From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri May 14 16:51:55 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:51:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: help me with the Riddles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98329 > Gina: > Okay, thanks. But does it say when the Riddles died? Does it give an > approximate year this happened? Because unless the murder happened 50 years > ago this could not be true. I agree with you, but unless we know when the > three Riddles were killed we cannot say for sure which Riddles they were. > > Gina > Probono: Does this work? "Fifty years before, at daybreak on a fine summer's morning when the Riddle House had still been well kept and impressive, a maid had entered the drawing room to find all three Riddles dead." It was all I could find... Gina: YES! Thank you so much! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From probono at rapidnet.com Fri May 14 16:50:58 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:50:58 -0000 Subject: help me with the Riddles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98330 > > Gina: > Okay, thanks. But does it say when the Riddles died? Does it give an > approximate year this happened? Because unless the murder happened 50 years > ago this could not be true. I agree with you, but unless we know when the > three Riddles were killed we cannot say for sure which Riddles they were. > > Gina Probono: Sorry if this posted twice, but it didn't look like it went through. Besides, I thought I'd expand on my original post anyway. Is this what you're looking for? "*Half a century ago*, something strange and horrible had happened there, something that the older inhabitants of the village still liked to discuss when topics for gossip were scarce." But it's important to remember this line too: "The story had been picked over so many times, and had been embroidered in so many places, that nobody was quite sure what the truth was anymore." but, "Every version of the tale, however, started in the same place: *Fifty years before*, at daybreak on a fine summer's morning when the Riddle House had still been well kept and impressive, a maid had entered the drawing room to find all three Riddles dead." Hope that helped some. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri May 14 17:02:35 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:02:35 -0500 Subject: another LV - Riddle question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98331 How could Tom Riddle be the heir of Slytherin when he was a mudblood? Gina A. Miller [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jillily3g at yahoo.com Fri May 14 16:59:11 2004 From: jillily3g at yahoo.com (Beth) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:59:11 -0000 Subject: POA: Scabbers / Pettigrew & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98332 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: [snip] Ginger: > I think Erin explained it well. I'm just chiming in to set the > record straight on the reference. > > It was QA in which it was commented that "the witch or wizard who > finds him- or herself transfigured into a bat may take to the air, > but, having a bat's brain, they are sure to forget where they want to go the moment they take flight." > > No mention of vampires, although the mental leap is understandable. > > Ginger, at your service Beth: :-) Thank you, Ginger. See what happens when one doesn't reference canon? You're right, Erin explained it very well. I think I was reaching to find an explanation of how Peter would keep tabs on things in the WW. I also think, no matter how creepy it would be to have Pettigrew creeping around the vicinity of the Burrow as himself and not Scabbers, how strange it is that he would /want/ to spend all those years merely as a rat, undoubtedly being "taught" tricks by the boys and being used for spell practice when they got bored. Is his fright of a weakened Voldemort enough to explain this? Is there somewhere (besides Fantastic Posts, I read that) I should be looking? Beth From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri May 14 17:27:02 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 17:27:02 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98333 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > This may seem to be nitpicking, but I think that JKR was talking > about Snape and *redemption,* not Snape and *love.* Here's the > interview from 1999: > > ***************** > One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall > in love. > (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's > a very horrible idea. > > There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape. > He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't > because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, > can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that > and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all > I'm going to say. > ****************** > > SSSusan continues: > It seems to me that the love issue was over after JKR's "very > horrible idea" remark. They then moved onto the "important kind of > redemptive pattern to Snape" which stunned JKR and which she said > we'd understand in book 7. > > I'm not saying that the relationship between Harry & Snape won't > change, but just that I don't think love may be the word to use.... > > Siriusly Snapey Susan "K": Ah, I must nitpick also. ;-) I guess it's how one reads that interview. Let's go over it again. The Connection 12 October 1999 J.K. Rowling Interview Transcript **One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR:(JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. **There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. www.quick-quote-quill.org...ransc.html The original question asked is whether Snape will fall in love or not. JKR answers with: ~~JKR:(JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea.~~ Then there is the statement by the interviewer concerning redemption. To which JKR says: ~~JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin.~~ It is at this time that JKR once again addresses the love issue: ~~JKR: I promise you, whoever asked **that question**, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say.~~ She never says Snape was not/is not/will not be in love. She does say she is slightly stunned that someone said that (love question) and we will find out in Book 7. It's the interviewer who strayed from the original question of love with his statement regarding redemption, but it's JKR who goes back and addresses the person who asked about Snape and love. Not about Snape and redemption. Of course I'm a big romantic and I'm hoping for a love story with Snape. I am talking a real love story and not unrequited love. :-) Like Carol I could have gone for Snape having twins! "K" From squeakinby at tds.net Fri May 14 18:35:17 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:35:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A51165.4000201@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98334 Miller, Gina (JIS) wrote: > How could Tom Riddle be the heir of Slytherin when he was a mudblood? Tom Riddle's father was a mudblood. He's is a half-blood. "I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side?" CoS US hardcover edition page 314 Usually when people say they are descended from someone...like George Washington, it's not that both mother and father are Washingtons, it's just one side of the family tree that's a Washington. The other side might be from say John Quincy Adams. Jem From rtb333 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 17:36:41 2004 From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 17:36:41 -0000 Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98335 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > How could Tom Riddle be the heir of Slytherin when he was a mudblood? > Robert now: Per the last interview with JKR, there is more to the birth of LV than we know. Also, I think that there is more to the Riddles. JKR does not arbitrarily pick names out of a hat. I think that she named them the Riddles because their true natures are still a question that hasn't been answered. I thought it was quite amusing that Tom jr changes his name to LV and his motives are no longer secret. This is just a theory. If you think there is nothing to it, I also think that Umbridge is a DE. Her name suggests that she is the bridge between the DE and the Ministry. I haven't figured out what Fudge stands for though. Rob From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri May 14 17:42:16 2004 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus ) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 17:42:16 -0000 Subject: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98336 > Del wrote: > Moreover, it's *high time* JKR finally builds a strong, real, 3- > dimensional Slytherin kid character. So the fact that Pansy is from > Slytherin is actually IMO a good point for her. > Marcus relies: Oh so true. That has been the weakest point of the series so far, IMO. Slytherins being so 1 or 2 dimensional. We has excused it as being the POV of an 11-15 year old. Well, now Harry is older and it is *high time* he (we) start seeing some decent Slytherin kids. > Del writes : > But wasn't one of the major lessons Harry learned in OoP that people > can change ? James was a total jerk at 15, and Lily despised him > completely. Yet she started going out with him barely 2 years later, > and then married him. Why couldn't Pansy do the same ? Marcus replies: I couldn't have said it better. :-) > Del writes : > The adverb "beadily" can mean pretty much anything. It doesn't say > that Pansy was laughing, or even smirking. It just says that she was > looking at Hermione very attentively. Who are we to guess what's > going on in her head ? IIRC, Pansy is the one who's accusing > Hermione of being a scarlet woman (I love that phrase :-) in Rita's > article, so she's responsible for Hermione getting her hands burned. > So of course she's looking at her, beadily or not. But that doesn't > mean she's happy with what's going on. For all we know, she might be > experiencing strong remorse, and be very sorry for Hermione. After > all, Harry tends to act the same way in OoP : do or say hurtful > things, and then be sorry when he realises the consequences of his > words or actions. > And we also have to remember that the story is told from Harry's > point of view. And at the precise moment, Harry thinks Pansy is all > evil, so of course he sees her in a completely negative light. > Marcus replies : This is my take on this scene. In fact, Pansy asked Harry what happened to Hermione that she left breakfast in such a hurry. We have always assumed it was Pansy gloating, but what if it was remorse? > Del writes: > I'm not saying Harry/Pansy *will* happen, I'm just saying it's not > at all impossible as far as I can see, considering what we know now. > > Del, who thinks it's quite revealing of Pansy's inner contradictions > that she was wearing a pale pink frilly robe at the Yule Ball... Marcus replies : Here is something else to think about. Pansy got nailed with antlers in OoP -- not horns, mind you -- antlers! Now I am not usually one for fore-shadowing. I generally dismiss it as being too woolly and inprecise. I am a Professor Binns and Professor McGonagall kind of guy. However, this is just too stunning to ignore! From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri May 14 17:47:12 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 17:47:12 -0000 Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: <40A51165.4000201@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: > Miller, Gina (JIS) wrote: > > How could Tom Riddle be the heir of Slytherin when he was a mudblood? > Jem wrote: > Tom Riddle's father was a mudblood. He's is a half-blood. Actually, Tom Riddle's father was a Muggle. His mother was a witch. If Tom's father was a Muggle-born wizard (aka a Mudblood), then Tom would technically be the pure-blooded son of a witch and wizard, though this would probably not count as pure-bloodedness to the more high minded of the WW (Malfoys, Blacks, etc). Meri From squeakinby at tds.net Fri May 14 19:04:07 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:04:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A51827.8040708@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98338 meriaugust wrote: > >>Tom Riddle's father was a mudblood. He's is a half-blood. > > > Actually, Tom Riddle's father was a Muggle. You're so correct. But it still holds that the Slytherin blood comes from Tom's mother. Jem From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri May 14 18:17:37 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:17:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another LV - Riddle question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98339 meriaugust wrote: > >>Tom Riddle's father was a mudblood. He's is a half-blood. > > > Actually, Tom Riddle's father was a Muggle. You're so correct. But it still holds that the Slytherin blood comes from Tom's mother. Jem ---____________ Gina: Okay let me clarify - I know it is possible Tom could be related "heir" of Slytherin, but why would SS RECOGNIZE a mudblood as his heir? Does that make more sense? Yes, they could be related, but why would Slytherin condone this mudblood messing up the perfectly pure family tree? ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri May 14 18:21:18 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:21:18 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98340 SSSusan continues: > > It seems to me that the love issue was over after JKR's "very > > horrible idea" remark. They then moved onto the "important kind > > of redemptive pattern to Snape" which stunned JKR and which she > > said we'd understand in book 7. > > > > I'm not saying that the relationship between Harry & Snape won't > > change, but just that I don't think love may be the word to > > use.... "K": > Ah, I must nitpick also. ;-) I guess it's how one reads that > interview. Let's go over it again. > > It's the interviewer who strayed from the original question of love > with his statement regarding redemption, but it's JKR who goes back > and addresses the person who asked about Snape and love. Not about > Snape and redemption. > > Of course I'm a big romantic and I'm hoping for a love story with > Snape. I am talking a real love story and not unrequited love. :-) > Like Carol I could have gone for Snape having twins! SSS says: Aaaaaah!! Thank you, K., as no, I had *not* looked at it that way! Hmmmmm. Must mull that one over. I much preferred the redemptive pattern idea.... ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan, who, if you'll recall, had offered up names for those twins [SSSidney and SSSusan]. From squeakinby at tds.net Fri May 14 19:26:01 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:26:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A51D49.3000209@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98341 Miller, Gina (JIS) wrote: > Gina: > Okay let me clarify - I know it is possible Tom could be related "heir" > of Slytherin, but why would SS RECOGNIZE a mudblood as his heir? Does that > make more sense? Yes, they could be related, but why would Slytherin condone > this mudblood messing up the perfectly pure family tree? Well...he's dead isn't he? What can he do about it? If parseltongue is inherited then unfortunately for Sal Tommy-boy can call the basilisk without a permission slip. When did SS "recognize" TR? Again I'm probably missing the point you're making. (It's so HOT and muggy here today!) Jem From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 14 18:31:53 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:31:53 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98342 "K" wrote: > > > > It's the interviewer who strayed from the original question of love > > with his statement regarding redemption, but it's JKR who goes back > > and addresses the person who asked about Snape and love. Not about > > Snape and redemption. > > > > Of course I'm a big romantic and I'm hoping for a love story with > > Snape. I am talking a real love story and not unrequited love. :- ) > > Like Carol I could have gone for Snape having twins! > > > SSS says: > Aaaaaah!! Thank you, K., as no, I had *not* looked at it that way! > Hmmmmm. Must mull that one over. I much preferred the redemptive > pattern idea.... ;-) > > Siriusly Snapey Susan, who, if you'll recall, had offered up names > for those twins [SSSidney and SSSusan]. Potioncat: Was it Kneasy who suggested Snape might have had a family and LV killed them, thus his reason for "returning" to DD's side? I think we'll see some sort of loving situation either from the past or currently. Potioncat (who thinks their father calls SSSidney and SSSusan by the endearing names of Slink and Slyther.) BTW, AOL has the new soundtrack available to listen to on line. Check out the HPANA site. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri May 14 18:47:51 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:47:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another LV - Riddle question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98343 > Gina: > Okay let me clarify - I know it is possible Tom could be related "heir" > of Slytherin, but why would SS RECOGNIZE a mudblood as his heir? Does that > make more sense? Yes, they could be related, but why would Slytherin condone > this mudblood messing up the perfectly pure family tree? Well...he's dead isn't he? What can he do about it? If parseltongue is inherited then unfortunately for Sal Tommy-boy can call the basilisk without a permission slip. When did SS "recognize" TR? Again I'm probably missing the point you're making. (It's so HOT and muggy here today!) Jem Gina again: No, actually that is a good point, but as Gryffindor put a spell on the sorting hat I guess I assumed Slytherin would take precautions as to whom he allowed to carry out his work where relatives are concerned. I am not debating the issue at all. This is not that sort of topic IMO. I was just curious about whether he is really the heir or not. Maybe Harry IS the heir and he needed Harry to come to that Chamber so he could try and kill him??? I do think Harry is related to Riddle in some way, but I have not made a connection yet. Your imput is greatly appreciated. Most of why I post stuff is in hopes that someone will discredit me. :-) This is sort of like free proof reading. I get an idea and to keep from being biased by my own blind intelligence (grin) I ask you guys to find holes in it. I love this list! Gina -now working harder to find clues. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri May 14 18:48:50 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:48:50 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98344 Potioncat asked: > Was it Kneasy who suggested Snape might have had a family and LV > killed them, thus his reason for "returning" to DD's side? > > I think we'll see some sort of loving situation either from the > past or currently. SSSusan replies: LOL! I don't recall if Kneasy suggested that Snape had a family which Voldy killed or not, but I can feel fairly confident that if he did, his theory didn't include any kind of "loving situation" for Snape--past, present or future! Have I got that right, Kneasy?? Siriusly Snapey Susan From starropal at hotmail.com Fri May 14 18:52:37 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:52:37 -0500 Subject: Filk - Diggory Regrets... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98345 There seems to be fast version of this song, which is weird for such a depressing song, this isn't based off that. Since that's the only one I could find in midi form there is no midi link. Diggory Regrets by Star Opal To the tune of Miss Otis Regrets, by Ella Fitzgerald Dedicated to Caius Marcius Diggory regrets he's unable to lunch today, Miss Chang Diggory regrets he's unable to lunch today He is sorry to be delayed But at the Tournament there was some foul play Miss Chang, Diggory regrets he's unable to lunch today Well, him and Potter found that together they had won, Miss Chang They took the cup and were quickly whisked far away And not long after touching ground Was drawn a wand, a curse broke through the still town Miss Chang, Diggory regrets he's unable to lunch today When the flash green of light hit him he went very pale, Miss Chang And his shadow had only these few words to say "Take my body back, you must try." A final request Potter could not deny Miss Chang, Diggory regrets he's unable to lunch today Diggory regrets he's unable to lunch today _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri May 14 18:54:08 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:54:08 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98346 Our eponymous hero struggles with monsters, Dark Wizards and occasionally with his friends. Life is dark, desperate and seemingly without succour. In between all these shenanagins he makes fitful but apparently futile attempts to find out more about his parents and the circumstances surrounding the events at Godric's Hollow. Sometimes I get the impression that we feel more urgency regarding these questions than Harry does, 'cos he keeps making a pigs ear of it. He *always* asks the wrong people, or if not the wrong people, then at the wrong time, or both. But there is someone he's never asked; someone who has already volunteered that they are in possession of a great deal of information about Harry - Hermione. Oh, yes! Little-miss-know-it-all let the cat out of the bag in PS/SS chap.6 when she first meets Harry and Ron on the Hogwarts Express: "I know all about you, of course - I got a few extra books for background reading, and you're in "Modern Magical History" and "The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts" and "Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century." "Am I?" said Harry, feeling dazed. "Goodness, didn't you know, I'd have found out everything I could if it was me," said Hermione. Harry, being as thick as two short planks, never raises the subject again during the next 5 years. I think I know why, too. This passage is a remnant; a trace of the *15* chapters that were excised from the first book because they revealed the entire plot. But why not excise this bit too? Because I suspect that at some point Hermione is going to pipe up with "But every- body knows that! Don't you read any books? It's in..... and I told you so!" Meanwhile Harry wanders around like an Obliviated Troll, blind to what's under his nose. I despair of that boy, I really do. Kneasy From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri May 14 19:03:09 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 19:03:09 -0000 Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98347 > Gina wrote: > Okay let me clarify - I know it is possible Tom could be related "heir" > of Slytherin, but why would SS RECOGNIZE a mudblood as his heir? Does that > make more sense? Yes, they could be related, but why would Slytherin condone > this mudblood messing up the perfectly pure family tree? Mandy here: Well, I don't think Slytherin had a choice. If his last remaining ancestor (or was it descendant, I can't remember) was Tom Riddle, who happened to be half-blooded, Slytherin would either have to abandon all hope of ever being able to finish his `noble work' or suck it up and make do with what he had. Remember the Chamber of Secrets could only be opened by the true heir of Slytherin, no one else. Even if that heir was mixed with muggle blood. So even someone as `pureblooded' as Lucius Malfoy or Sirius Black could not have opened the Chamber even if they wanted to, and the Chamber would have been closed for eternity. It seems to me that Slytherin was desperate and just had to make do. It also seems to me that there is a lot of magic in the WW that works only when there is a blood tie. Harry's mothers spell of protection for example. An argument which could be used to in favor of keeping the WW pureblooded. Keep the bloodlines pure and the magic is stronger. Just a thought. Personally I subscribe to Kneasey's rather brilliant theory of Tom Riddle being possessed and controlled by the spirit of Slytherin when he entered the chamber for the first time. It would not be a stretch in my mind to believe that this possession would be stronger if performed on a blood relative rather than a stranger. Hope that helps. Cheers Mandy From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri May 14 19:03:08 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 19:03:08 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > SSSusan continues: > SSS says: > Aaaaaah!! Thank you, K., as no, I had *not* looked at it that way! > Hmmmmm. Must mull that one over. I much preferred the redemptive > pattern idea.... ;-) > > Siriusly Snapey Susan, who, if you'll recall, had offered up names > for those twins [SSSidney and SSSusan]. "K": Well, SSSusan, let's hope for both. Redemption and love. I've always loved those SS names. Must be something to that, IMO. Potioncat: >I think we'll see some sort of loving situation either from the past >or currently. "K": Personally I hope it's current but I have no real canon proof for that. Except Snape's such a lovable guy... From burgess at cynjut.net Fri May 14 19:07:27 2004 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:07:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: <1084556251.15075.970.m3@yahoogroups.com> References: <1084556251.15075.970.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <57450.143.250.2.102.1084561647.squirrel@www4.neonramp.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98349 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" > wrote: >> How could Tom Riddle be the heir of Slytherin when he was a >mudblood? >> >Robert now: ...> >This is just a theory. > >If you think there is nothing to it, I also think that Umbridge is a >DE. Her name suggests that she is the bridge between the DE and the >Ministry. > Not to me - in fact, it means implies quite the opposite. Umbridge is sometimes used to describe what someone feels when they think they've been insulted or slighted. Common use is "to take umbridge" with a statement or position. I can't think of another colloquialism that would mean quite the same thing, unless it was something like "got his shorts in a knot about" the statement. I'm not sure it's any clearer that way, but the former is much more haughty - Thurston Howell III would take umbridge, Gilligan would get his shorts in a knot. >I haven't figured out what Fudge stands for though. In American English, to 'fudge' sometimes means 'to cheat a little bit'. Usually, it's inconsequential stuff, like changing the margins on a paper so that you meet the 10 page limit without actually having to figure out another 1/2 page of stuff. Some Americans fudge their charitable contribution numbers to pay less taxes. It's wrong, it's just the degree. I learned the term playing darts with my Dad; he used it to describe that half hop that people sometimes use that ends them up 'just on' the hockey after they move their toe back. Here you go: "I would take umbridge with your accusation that I fudged my taxes." Don't know what that does for your theory. Dave who's wondering if other cultures have a concept for 'cheating that's kind of OK' in their primary language.... From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri May 14 19:08:45 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 19:08:45 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98350 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Potioncat asked: > > Was it Kneasy who suggested Snape might have had a family and LV > > killed them, thus his reason for "returning" to DD's side? > > > > I think we'll see some sort of loving situation either from the > > past or currently. > > > SSSusan replies: > LOL! I don't recall if Kneasy suggested that Snape had a family > which Voldy killed or not, but I can feel fairly confident that if he > did, his theory didn't include any kind of "loving situation" for > Snape--past, present or future! > > Have I got that right, Kneasy?? You malign my romantic inclinations - which are miniscule. Yes, I did propose that Sevvy had a family - and that his wife was Florence. And that the happy family were depicted in the memory with the crying child with Snape, as usual, not happy about something his darling help-meet has done or not done. (Where's me dinner? You sit around all day watching the Pensieve while I flog me guts out torturing Muggles, and what do I get? No dinner!) And also that Voldy, directly or indirectly caused their deaths, hence giving Snapey massive motivation for becoming anti-Voldy (which is not quite the same thing as pro-Order). It's all personal, you see, not a matter of moral principle. See posts 68045, 69509 and a good few since. Why do I bother? Nobody reads 'em. Kneasy From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri May 14 19:06:54 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 19:06:54 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > > SSSusan replies: > LOL! I don't recall if Kneasy suggested that Snape had a family > which Voldy killed or not, but I can feel fairly confident that if he > did, his theory didn't include any kind of "loving situation" for > Snape--past, present or future! > > I remember that theory, though I don't know who first proposed it. I think it was suggested that Snape might have fallen in love with someone like Lily - an opponent of LV who became too dangerous and was taken care of. I don't know why, but this seems less likely to me. LV is a ruthless killer, but he also knows how to hold his supporters. As he says to Pettigrew, "Lord Voldemort rewards his helpers." I don't think he'd deliberately do something to turn a useful servant against him; he seems to me to be more likely to say, "You want her? She's yours! When we rule the world, you can have any woman you want!" I mean, he must be offering his followers SOMETHING, and that would be a pretty standard way of rewarding followers. Wanda From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri May 14 19:14:40 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 19:14:40 -0000 Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: <57450.143.250.2.102.1084561647.squirrel@www4.neonramp.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98352 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David Burgess" wrote: > In American English, to 'fudge' sometimes means 'to cheat a little bit'. > Usually, it's inconsequential stuff, like changing the margins on a paper > so that you meet the 10 page limit without actually having to figure out > another 1/2 page of stuff. Some Americans fudge their charitable > contribution numbers to pay less taxes. It's wrong, it's just the degree. It's also the "polite" version of a VERY rude word! In "A Christmas Story", Ralphie drops the bolts while his dad is changing the car tire in the snow, and in slow motion says, "Ohhhhhh FFFFUUUUUUDDDDDGGGEEEE." 'But I didn't say 'fudge',' says the narrator. 'I said THE word - the granddaddy of all swears - the F dash dash dash word.' Myself, I think Fudge might be more related to *this* interpretation, considering the amount of damage he's been able to inflict so far. Wanda From squeakinby at tds.net Fri May 14 20:26:32 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:26:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A52B78.2030505@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98353 Miller, Gina (JIS) wrote: > > > Maybe Harry IS the > heir and he needed Harry to come to that Chamber so he could try and kill > him??? I think that Tom is able to control the basilisk suggests he is in fact the heir. That old English nursery rhyme...The Slytherin controls the serpent heigh ho the derry oh, the Slytherin is the snake. Tom of course was thrilled to have Harry in the Chamber where the chances of killing him with the basilisk are optimal. If Harry was the heir he would or could have just said "stop!" Still he's a fairly clever boy and that would have occured to him given that he has chatted with snakes in the past. It was better/more clear in the movie where Tom said "The basilisk will not listen to you." One must think JKR didn't object to that as she reportedly worked with them very closely on the movie. Jem From starropal at hotmail.com Fri May 14 19:27:35 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:27:35 -0500 Subject: Filk - One's For Old Sevy... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98354 Dedicated to Kneasy (This) One's For Old Sevy To the tune of One For My Baby by Ella Fitzgerald Okay, sure he don't beam, And his eyes don't hold cryptic gleams Just blame it on Jo' Uses adverbs like silkily Makes his robes billow That good and bad blend True, sallow skinned, bad teeth, hook nosed This one's for old Sevy Even though he hates that toad Yeah, know the routine, He's greasy, and ugly, and really mean Sometimes he goes quite mad Not the sort you'd look for in an ad He's important - he's important to plot Knows a lot In ex-Death Eater mode This one's for old Sevy Even though he hates that toad Yeah we all know it With potions he's a kind of poet "Brew glory... stopper death," likes to say Dark and gloomy, still think he's super groovy 'Fraid it'll stay that way Well thats how it goes, Jo pretty soon the books will close And I do fear He might not survive Harry's seventh year There's two - there's two more rounds To a pulp he may be ground Unclear his future road This one's for old Sevy Even though hates that toad Made it through One, Two, Three, and Four With Five that leaves just two - two more This one's for old Sevy Even though he hates that toad _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 14 19:29:49 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 19:29:49 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98355 Wanda wrote: > I think it was suggested that Snape might have fallen in love with > someone like Lily - an opponent of LV who became too dangerous and > was taken care of. I don't know why, but this seems less likely to > me. Potioncat: I agree, the Lily-Severus connection doesn't quite make it. And if that was the connection, I don't think Snape would dislike Harry so much. But then, I don't think his dilike of Harry has much to do with James either. Kneasy may be on to something Snape may have lost a family and it may be the reason for his betrayal of LV and for his dislike of Harry. The Severus-Florence pairing makes a lot of sense...if only from the other bits connected with that incident in the pensieve in DD's office and with what will happen later in Snape's office. I think, from a literary point, Bertha following the couple is similar to Harry looking into DD's pensieve and into Snape's pensieve. OK, who slipped me a Babbling Potion? Potioncat (Yes, Kneasy, we do read your posts...) From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri May 14 19:31:55 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:31:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another LV - Riddle question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98356 * Maybe Harry IS the > heir and he needed Harry to come to that Chamber so he could try and kill > him??? I think that Tom is able to control the basilisk suggests he is in fact the heir. That old English nursery rhyme...The Slytherin controls the serpent heigh ho the derry oh, the Slytherin is the snake. Tom of course was thrilled to have Harry in the Chamber where the chances of killing him with the basilisk are optimal. If Harry was the heir he would or could have just said "stop!" Still he's a fairly clever boy and that would have occured to him given that he has chatted with snakes in the past. It was better/more clear in the movie where Tom said "The basilisk will not listen to you." One must think JKR didn't object to that as she reportedly worked with them very closely on the movie. Jem Gina: * My grasp for straws was that maybe Harry could have said stop but having been told he couldn't didn't try. Maybe Riddle knew that or maybe he didn't - we know he has underestimated Harry before. Are we to assume that Riddle overheard that Harry could speak parsel tongue or did someone tell him? How did he know? ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From imontero at iname.com Fri May 14 16:27:04 2004 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:27:04 -0000 Subject: small thing in COS: Possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98357 Antigone q: > > Here's a thought (and it's way out in left field, so it's okay if > > you disagree): Petrified Hermione is clutching a small piece of > > paper telling about the Basalisk. However, given Hermione's respect > > for books, it seems so unlikely to me that she would _tear_ a page > > out of a book - probably a LIBRARY book at that. > > > > Is it possible that someone left that information for her, or gave > > it to her? If so, it of course leads to several questions: Who gave > > it to her? How did they get the information about the chamber? And > > why did she not say someone gave her the info or left it for her to > > find? HedwigsTalons: > I too am struck upon each reading of COS how unusually out of > character it seems to have Hermione rip a page out of book. If her > respect for books is as great as mine, ripping a page from a book is > INCONCEIVABLE! But, perhaps she had no paper and quill, or no time to > copy the info. because the basilisk was in the room? Luna: Hello! I am always lurking in this website but I almost never post a message because usually someone says what I want to say before I write it! Now, lets get down to the small thing in COS. In the COS interview, it seemed to me that Steve thought that he could leave something out when adapting the books to the film and while consulting JKR about the script she told him that he had to let it there because that detail was very important. Now, we are looking for something that could be taken out without altering the story line in COS, something that is in the film and in the book and could be taken out without having a big impact on what's going on. The piece of paper in Hermione's hand is essential to the plot; it couldn't have been taken out of the film. I think that Hermione probably ripped off that piece of page because she was in a hurry. She knew that someone's life (probably her own life) was in danger. I don't know, I am not sure this is the important "small thing." Percy being near Slytherin dungeons was a probability, but then again, I think it is important to the plot because the idea is to make us suspect Percy...Well, now I am getting myself a little headache! Luna From squeakinby at tds.net Fri May 14 20:34:27 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:34:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A52D53.1030402@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98358 Wanda Sherratt wrote: > > It's also the "polite" version of a VERY rude word! In "A Christmas > Story", Ralphie drops the bolts while his dad is changing the car > tire in the snow, and in slow motion says, "Ohhhhhh > FFFFUUUUUUDDDDDGGGEEEE." I love that movie! Fudge Blank is also an even more rude term I won't specify that conjures up a true image of the MoM in my mind. I don't know that's a Britishism tho but given the Brits, they may well have something even far worse than I've heard in English working class type movies. I think we can generally agree that Cornie isn't the sweet candy type of guy his name suggests. Jem From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri May 14 19:36:17 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 19:36:17 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98359 Kneasey wrote: > You malign my romantic inclinations - which are miniscule. > Yes, I did propose that Sevvy had a family - and that his wife > was Florence. And that the happy family were depicted in > the memory with the crying child with Snape, as usual, not > happy about something his darling help-meet has done or > not done. (Where's me dinner? You sit around all day watching > the Pensieve while I flog me guts out torturing Muggles, and > what do I get? No dinner!) And also that Voldy, directly or > indirectly caused their deaths, hence giving Snapey massive > motivation for becoming anti-Voldy (which is not quite the > same thing as pro-Order). > It's all personal, you see, not a matter of moral principle. > See posts 68045, 69509 and a good few since. > Why do I bother? Nobody reads 'em. Mandy here: Cheer up Kneasy; I think more people read your posts that you realise. We just keep rehashing the same old stuff, over and over again in the futile and desperate hope of catching the golden nugget that slipped through the cracks..... Your Snape/Florence theory would support JKR statement about who could love Snape if he truly is that despicable. I wouldn't put it passed him to be so cruel to his wife, as we often our to those closest to us. But what if, instead of LV killing Florence, Snape killed her? Perhaps, instead of yelling about his late dinner, he's yelling about something vital she let slip? Or perhaps she went to the Order with information and LV demanded her death at Snapes hands. Or Snape knew that killing her himself would be kinder than letting LV torture her to death? That combines love and redemption nicely, with a dash of betrayal thrown in. Snape's hand being forced and atonement becoming a desperate necessity. It's a little romantic but not too soppy. It paints Snape as despicable but being left with no choice...how do you make the choice between two evils? And how do you live with the choice you do make? Cheers Mandy From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 17:42:04 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 17:42:04 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98360 > "K" wrote: > It is at this time that JKR once again addresses the love issue: > > ~~JKR: I promise you, whoever asked **that question**, can I just > say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that > and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. > That's all I'm going to say.~~ > It's the interviewer who strayed from the original question of love > with his statement regarding redemption, but it's JKR who goes back > and addresses the person who asked about Snape and love. Not about > Snape and redemption. If we are to continue nitpicking ;-), I'd like to add that the word "stunned" strikes me as being more negative than positive, more like, "holy sh%t, what on earth made you think that?!" not like, "oh wow, I'm really surprised you guessed what was coming for him." So, regardless if they were speaking about love or redemption, I still have a feeling that Snape might not really be that good of a guy. Sure, I'd like to see it in a way, but it seems rather predictable. I'm still for the ESE!Snape, the double agent idea, since we don't know anything about why he joined up with LV in the first place, why he quit, who *truly* knows which side he's working for, etc., and I like the idea that DD knows he (Snape) is going to play a more important role in the upcoming battle with LV, so he wants Snape nice and close so he can monitor his behavior. Now, I've read lots of posts re: Snape and his behavior towards Harry, saving him, etc., so I don't necessarily think I'm correct in this, but there's got to be a good reason why JKR's so tight-lipped about him, not only in interviews, but in the actual books. Susan (who does agree with whoever said that Alan Rickman makes an excellent Snape. That IS the only reason I'd like to see him be redeemed. :-0) From squeakinby at tds.net Fri May 14 20:38:36 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:38:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A52E4C.4040504@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98361 Miller, Gina (JIS) wrote: > * My grasp for straws was that maybe Harry could have said stop but > having been told he couldn't didn't try. Harry's not told that in the book. At least not that I saw when I just looked at the page. Are we to assume that > Riddle overheard that Harry could speak parsel tongue or did someone tell > him? How did he know? Ginny may have written it in the diary since it was such a big deal during the dueling lesson. In the movie (sorry to refer to that) we did see Ginny writing and exchanged a look with Harry after that incident. She could have been pouring her heart out to Tom at any time off camera or off page. Jem From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 17:59:59 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 10:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Aurors (was : Why were they going to arrest Hagrid?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040514175959.58092.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98362 Del replies : I don't want to nitpick, but Aurors are most definitely NOT "idiot goons"! If I remember well, one needs at least 5 NEWTs to apply for the job, then there's a thorough screening test, and then 3 years of additional studies and training. No idiot goon could ever get through all of that. animallover_11: There are also Aurors that work for for DD and the Order. But any time that you need 4 or 5 people to take out MM and Hagrid you are not dealing with the smartest of characters. To be a good Auror you need both the book smarts and "street" smarts. There is only so much that studying and books can teach you. Look at Hermione is PS, she is not sure how to start a fire in the chamber, yet she can repeat every word and line from any book. It is all about finding balance between the books and common sense that makes you not an idiot!! If you also look at how good DJU feels that she is as well as Draco....they both need the "goon" strenght to keep them safe. You don't see the true powerful wizards using goons to fight there battles. Does it not seem stange the LV is very much like Draco and DJU. He is very seldom doing his own bidding. He seems to use his messengers and goons to take care of things. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brenda72200 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 17:30:07 2004 From: brenda72200 at yahoo.com (Brenda Villatoro) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 10:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin-James switch (was: Re: a Lupin and a werewolf question) In-Reply-To: <002001c439c9$bc63bfc0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <20040514173007.61199.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98363 Sherry Gomes wrote: I hope this does not turn out to be the case. JKR has said that Harry's parents won't come back, that when you're dead, you're dead. But mostly, I think it would be so cruel to Harry to have had his father alive all this time and not know it. What a terrible thing to do to him, allowing him to be raised by the Weasleys ... everything he's been through, and all the time his father was secretly alive. If it was me, I don't know if I could ever forgive that. I think you're right. I couldn't forgive that either. It would be very cruel for Harry to all of a sudden find out that his father was there all along. He has always missed his parents and has imagined life with them if they were alive, and to find out that one of them was alive and to not be told would just destroy the image that he has of his father. Brenda From patientx3 at aol.com Fri May 14 19:40:07 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 19:40:07 -0000 Subject: POA: Scabbers / Pettigrew & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98364 Beth wrote: >>I also think, no matter how creepy it would be to have Pettigrew creeping around the vicinity of the Burrow as himself and not Scabbers, how strange it is that he would /want/ to spend all those years merely as a rat, undoubtedly being "taught" tricks by the boys and being used for spell practice when they got bored. Is his fright of a weakened Voldemort enough to explain this?<< HunterGreen: Maybe he was just lazy and enjoyed not having to worry about taking care of himself or doing anything besides sleeping and eating. Also, it seems like Ron took decent care of him and liked him a lot (and isn't that what Peter wanted, to be accepted?). I don't think he necessarily *wanted* to spend all those years as a rat, but he didn't really have a choice. After he decided to fake his death, he couldn't go back. It worked out pretty well for him though, look at his life after becoming human, he's pushed around and tortured by VD and has to be an underling and all that, much less comfortable than his "rat life" (unless he's actually committed to Voldemort and enjoyed serving him, which is doubtful). From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 18:23:51 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's inconscious view of Harry and Potter (Yes, I mean the And) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040514182351.62917.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98365 Christelle: Does someone else find it strange that the same man who read Skeeter's article in class to humiliate Harry never said one word about what he saw concerning the Dursleys? In Occlumency or in class? Why there are no "dear, and you're our saviour", "What, the Golden Boy couldn't defend himself against some *Muggles*?", "In a toilet? What would your fanclub say if they knew that?" It's nearly OOC, and it's not in Snape's character to pass on a chance to ridicule Harry. animallover_11: I have always thought that the main reason that Snape is the way he is towards both Harry and Neville is because of his position. It is well know that he was/is a DE (well by the DE's themselves anyways). Draco is in his class and house at the sametime that BOTH Harry and Neville are in his class. This puts Snape in a very sticky situation. He does not want to start any suspicous behaviour infront of Malfoy Jr. If he can keep Malfoy Sr happy that he is still with the DE's he will be more help to DD and the Order. LV had know about most of the Prophecy so the DE's probably knew most of the prophecy as well. This would put both Neville and Harry in bad with the DE's. Of course Harry is alittle worse off since it was he who vanquished LV the first time. Snape seems to always take "appropriate" belittling of Harry and Neville. He is mean and rude but does not seem to cross the line to outright abuse. I have always thought that Snape has felt sorry for the lives he helped to create for both Neville and Harry and in his round about way is trying to help them. By acting the way he does he is keeping the DE's happy and helping to solidify his position to help DD. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brenda72200 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 17:34:59 2004 From: brenda72200 at yahoo.com (Brenda Villatoro) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 10:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040514173459.8616.qmail@web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98366 "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: How could Tom Riddle be the heir of Slytherin when he was a mudblood? Tom was the heir of Slytherin because his mother was a witch and she was a decendent of Salazar Slytherin. So he had the same power and abilities that Salazar had even if his father was a muggle. Brenda From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri May 14 19:44:35 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:44:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another LV - Riddle question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98367 My grasp for straws was that maybe Harry could have said stop but > having been told he couldn't didn't try. Harry's not told that in the book. At least not that I saw when I just looked at the page. Are we to assume that > Riddle overheard that Harry could speak parsel tongue or did someone tell > him? How did he know? Ginny may have written it in the diary since it was such a big deal during the dueling lesson. In the movie (sorry to refer to that) we did see Ginny writing and exchanged a look with Harry after that incident. She could have been pouring her heart out to Tom at any time off camera or off page. Jem Gina: Yes, I thought of that and I will agree. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri May 14 19:46:08 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:46:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's inconscious view of Harry and Potter (Yes, I mean the And) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98368 animallover_11: I have always thought that the main reason that Snape is the way he is towards both Harry and Neville is because of his position. It is well know that he was/is a DE (well by the DE's themselves anyways). Draco is in his class and house at the sametime that BOTH Harry and Neville are in his class. This puts Snape in a very sticky situation. He does not want to start any suspicous behaviour infront of Malfoy Jr. If he can keep Malfoy Sr happy that he is still with the DE's he will be more help to DD and the Order. LV had know about most of the Prophecy so the DE's probably knew most of the prophecy as well. This would put both Neville and Harry in bad with the DE's. Of course Harry is alittle worse off since it was he who vanquished LV the first time. Snape seems to always take "appropriate" belittling of Harry and Neville. He is mean and rude but does not seem to cross the line to outright abuse. I have always thought that Snape has felt sorry for the lives he helped to create for both Neville and Harry and in his round about way is trying to help them. By acting the way he does he is keeping the DE's happy and helping to solidify his position to help DD. Gina: I agree here, but would like to add that Snape probably did not want Harry rattling off what he saw about Snape either. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri May 14 20:09:11 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 20:09:11 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > Our eponymous hero struggles with monsters, Dark Wizards > and occasionally with his friends. Life is dark, desperate and > seemingly without succour. In between all these shenanagins > he makes fitful but apparently futile attempts to find out more > about his parents and the circumstances surrounding the > events at Godric's Hollow. snip > But there is someone he's never asked; someone who has > already volunteered that they are in possession of a great > deal of information about Harry - Hermione. > > Oh, yes! Little-miss-know-it-all snip Meri now: Do you really think that Harry's entire family history (or, basically every question that any HP reader worth their salt could ever want answered) is sitting in some mouldy old volume in the Hogwarts Library? Interesting...but I find that unlikely. As we saw in OotP, DD has taken many percautions (some, myslef included, might say too many) to prevent Harry from learning about the prophecy and the mysteries surrounding the events at Godric's Hollow too early in life, and what good would that have done if there was some book ("The Potters, A History") just down the hall waiting for Harry to read. (Oooooh, the screaming book from CoS just jumped into my head...small thing theories anyone?) Anyway, as to Hermione being an untapped source of Potter family lore, I don't see that either. Unless she's in a bad mood, there is usually little to stop her sharing (forcibly, if need be) with Ron and Harry. And as to Harry asking the wrong questions (or the wrong questions to the wrong people), as far as he knows these are the right people: DD, Sirius, Remus, Mr. Weasley, etc. He's not a seer, after all. He's a kid. Meri - who has faith that the boy will, eventually, get with the programme. From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Fri May 14 20:14:09 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 20:14:09 -0000 Subject: Neville's powers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98370 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > AmanitaMuscaria: > > > Now, why would Neville refer to himself as a Muggle and not as a > > Squib? He's been brought up in the magical world, and would know > the > > different terms, wouldn't he? He may have been hidden because > > he's 'The Other' or for a different reason, but for someone whose > > powers have been very downplayed, he's had a lot of pagetime. > > I fear the reason is that JKR didn't want to introduce the concept > of a Squib (as a social category - the idea that you can be born to > wizards without powers is of course implicit in what Neville's > saying) at that point. In COS Neville does say something > like 'everyone knows I'm practically a Squib'. > > His powers are evident if you look carefully, of course; see > http://elkins.theennead.com/hp/neville.html (you will have to scroll > a little way down). > > David AmanitaMuscaria again: Hmmm - maybe - he could just have said 'They didn't think I was very magical' Like you, I believe Neville will surprise us; I just said his powers were downplayed, not that he didn't have them. What I mean is, he's not just used as a foil to show off everyone else's better wizardry, he has a large role in his own right. I just think that role will get larger. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri May 14 20:23:56 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 20:23:56 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98371 Kneasy: > Oh, yes! Little-miss-know-it-all let the cat out of the bag > in PS/SS chap.6 when she first meets Harry and Ron on > the Hogwarts Express: > > "I know all about you, of course - I got a few extra books > for background reading, and you're in "Modern Magical > History" and "The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts" and > "Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century." > "Am I?" said Harry, feeling dazed. > "Goodness, didn't you know, I'd have found out everything > I could if it was me," said Hermione. > > Harry, being as thick as two short planks, never raises the > subject again during the next 5 years. > > Meanwhile Harry wanders around like an Obliviated Troll, > blind to what's under his nose. > > I despair of that boy, I really do. Jen: They are quite the duo, aren't they? Hermione's inquiring mind never lets her rest and Harry....Harry has not a curious bone in his body. I nearly fell over in amazement when he questioned, no *interrogated* Aunt Petunia about the Howler in OOTP. No more Mr. Nice-Guy, from this point on Harry is stepping up to the plate. He's going to start demanding some answers in Book 6, starting with the Dursleys and ending with Dumbledore. I almost feel sorry for them, except they brought it on themselves after years of silence. Hehe. Jen, who has read every single one of Kneasy's posts and lived to tell about it. From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri May 14 20:27:22 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 20:27:22 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98372 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: And as to Harry > asking the wrong questions (or the wrong questions to the wrong > people), as far as he knows these are the right people: DD, Sirius, > Remus, Mr. Weasley, etc. He's not a seer, after all. He's a kid. But he never asks ANY questions! I mean...really! Kneasy's right. If someone told YOU that you were in a book I BET you'd run out and find a copy. Especially if you'd just found out your entire life was something knew nothing about. HE DIDN'T! If you were escorted to a bank and shown a HEAP OF GOLD COINS and told they were YOURS, wouldn't you ASK WHERE THEY CAME FROM? Sorry, your mom and dad left them ISN'T good enough for me. And all this is before he even MEETS Dumbledore. Mel, nosy. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 14 20:27:55 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 20:27:55 -0000 Subject: POA: Scabbers / Pettigrew & the Weasleys - Lost & Found In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > bboy_mn wrote: > >>First, what would be the best type of family for Peter to hide > >> with? Then what would be the type of family that would most > >> likely take him in? > [snip reasons why the weasleys were a good choice] > > >> My theory is that Peter looked at the same issues I have pointed > >> out above, and came to the conclusion that the Weasleys would be > >> an ideal family to be with, and a family with a high likelihood > >> of actually taking him in.<< > HunterGreen: > But how would he find all this out? Obviously, the Weasley's turned > out to be a perfect choice, but how would Peter go about profiling > various wizarding families? The only answer I can think of is that > he knew of them beforehand, and just had to get them to take him in. bboy_mn now replies: Exactly; he knew them beforehand. Although, that doesn't necessarily means Peter was friends with the Weasleys. Mr. Weasley works for the Ministry of Magic which seems to be a very big organization, and he seems to be familair with and on friendly terms with most of the people there. In addtion, Mr. Weasley is not above stopping in for a drink every now and then, and we all know a Pub is a great place to see and be seen, as well as, to know and be known. Compound that by the fact that Mr. Weasley has 7 kids all of whom need food, clothing, plus books and other school supplies. Then factor in that Mr. & Mrs. Weasley are purebloods. Throw in a gererous dose of flaming red hair and you end up with a family that is familar to virtually everyone in the British wizard world. You ask, how could Peter know them, and I reply, how could he not? > bboy_mn: > >> As to when all this occured, I'm sure it happened not too long > >> after Voldemort was ripped from his body by Harry. ... I would > >> say that within a month or two of faking his own death, Peter > >> would have become Scabbers-the pet rat.<< > HunterGreen: > I was thinking that it was later, that he went in hiding as a rat > for a while before deciding he needed to find someone to take him > in, but your post got me thinking. Why is he called 'Scabbers'? bboy_mn now replies: Difficult to argue with you about your belief that Peter was in hiding as a rat for more than two months before searching for a family to take him in. In rat form, he would have been extremely well adapted to hinding in plain sight. He could easily lurk about Diagon Alley or Hogsmeade pretty much indefinitely, and be sure of having plenty to eat and being able to find reasonable, for a rat, shelter. I suspect, he didn't hang around for long though, because I'm guessing he extremely paranoid, fearing every second for his life and discovery; not to mention the natural dangers that a rat faces like predator, poison, and an natural human animosity toward gutter rats. So why did they call him 'Scabbers'? Might have been because of that big scab on his front paw where his toe/finger used to be. If he was clean enough and cute enough, the missing toe/finger would have actually made him more sympathetic. Percy probably thought the other rats we picking on poor Scabbers, and felt a bit of empathy toward him. Anyone with Fred and George for brothers probably knows from a very young age what it's like to be picked on. Remember... I just make this stuff up. bboy_mn From KLMF at aol.com Fri May 14 20:32:22 2004 From: KLMF at aol.com (KLMF at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:32:22 EDT Subject: How Mundungus knew.... Message-ID: <96.afd23b3.2dd686d6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98374 OK, apologies in advance if someone already remembered this and I missed the post.... A few weeks back I asked about how Mundungus knew to be in the Hog's Head when Harry, Ron, and Hermione held the first DA meeting. Well, I think I found my answer. Hermione had asked Flitwick ahead of time if it was OK for students to go into the Hog's Head (he said yes and to bring your own glass, remember?) So, is it a safe assumption that Flitwick is in the loop with DD and the OotP and let them know that Hermione had asked? Karen F From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri May 14 21:14:54 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 21:14:54 -0000 Subject: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98375 Erika wrote : Seems to me there's a long way to go before we see a Harry/Pansy ship. Del replies : Not to me. On the contrary, it seems to me like it could happen very quickly if JKR wants it that way. I'm not saying Harry/Pansy *will* happen, I'm just saying it's not at all impossible as far as I can see, considering what we know now. Del, who thinks it's quite revealing of Pansy's inner contradictions that she was wearing a pale pink frilly robe at the Yule Ball... Marcus replies : This is my take on this scene. In fact, Pansy asked Harry what happened to Hermione that she left breakfast in such a hurry. We have always assumed it was Pansy gloating, but what if it was remorse? Here is something else to think about. Pansy got nailed with antlers in OoP -- not horns, mind you -- antlers! Bookworm: I'm going to agree with Del and Marcus (for a change ). While I'm not excited about it, I would find a relationship between Harry and Pansy more believable than Harry and Draco suddenly becoming best buds. I'm also waiting for more info on the unknown Slytherin boy ? after double Potions with the Slytherins for years, how could Harry not know his name? Just to throw my few knuts into the mix, describing someone as `looking beadily' didn't sound like a compliment to me, but I found this definition on line: Beadily: 1 a : resembling beads b : small, round, and shiny with interest or greed http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=beadily Interest or greed. Hmm... Once again it comes down to POV. Ravenclaw Bookworm From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 14 21:25:50 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 21:25:50 -0000 Subject: Longevity in the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98376 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brian" wrote: > Professor Marchbanks did seem phenomenal, didn't she? Her presence > in OOTP does a few things. First of all, she makes Dumbledore's age > seem less dramatic--.... Second, her comments establish that, at > least according to her word, DD was around in time to take OWLS or > NEWTS. > bboy_mn: While M. Marchbanks is dramatically old to us; I agree, I don't see any particular drama in that fact relative to the wizarding world. Am I correct in taking your second point to mean that you are amazed that the wizarding world had standardized testing more than 130 years ago when in the Muggle world that is a relatively recent invention? I would agree with you on that point. To have standardized testing would be very advanced concept in a world that seems to be as far behind the times as the Wizard World. > Brian: > > Now I dont' have an OOTP copy nearby, so I must rely on memory. > Didn't Marchbanks give the impression that, even back then, she was > an examiner, rather than a Hogwarts teacher? > bboy_mn: Again, I agree. Madame Marchbanks would have to be old enough at the time she tested Dumbledore to have risen throught the ranks of the Ministry until she was trusted and authoritative enough to be an Examiner. Although, I speculate she would need to be no more that 20 to 50 years older that Dumbledore, and that puts here well with the normal lifespan of a wizard. > Brian: > > ...edited... > > I'm not convinced that DD or Marchbanks are beneficiaries of Flamel > association. ...edited... > bboy_mn: Once again, I agree. I see no reason to bring Flamel or the Stone into the equation. As I pointed out above Madame Marchbanks doesn't need to be 100 or 200 or 300 years older than Dumbledore; 20 to 50 years is more than enough (between 37 and 67 years of age relative to a 17 year old Dumbledore), and the puts her currently well within the normal wizard's lifespan. > Brian: > > Aside from DD and Marchbanks, the only other overt reference to age > I can think of regards McGonigall. ... > > Just a few thoughts from one who has an interest in longevity in > both the WW and the muggle worlds. > > Brian bboy_mn: An oldie but a goodie. ---- Quote: PoS Am PB pg 320 --- [Scene] Harry, Ron, and Hermione are walking back to the castle and meet Fudge as he is exiting the castle, following Fudge are the executioner and a Ministry official. The narrator, through Harry's eyes, comments on the Ministry official. "Before Fudge could answer, two wizards came through the castle doors behind him. One was so ancient he appeared to be withering before their very eyes; ..." ---end quote--- Madame Marchbanks is close to but just short of age 200; somewhere between 170 and 200 (85 to 100 in Muggle years). Relative to her, this Ministry official from the above quote must be over 200 years of age. My best guess about 210. Considering that age, he is in extremely good shape, still able to walk up and down the steep sloping lawns of the Hogwarts ground, although, indications are that doing so was very stressful for him. Also, from CoS, Headmaster Dippet seems to be described as very old and frail, so I put him at close to 200. In addition, and admittedly pure speculation, I have alway picture Mr. Ollivander (who I love dearly) as over 100. Amazingly, his business has been in the Ollivander family for nearly 2,400 years. But I see no evidence the Mr. Ollivander has a son or any apprentices. Perhaps with his passing, this will be the end of one of the great wizard world institutions. Also, I imagine Tom-The Innkeeper and Mr. Fortescue as being of advanced age, both near the 100 range. (again speculation) But in the Wizard World 100 is hardly an advanced age, that's more like middle age. A comment on Dumbledore's age, if we adjust his age to 'muggle years' then he is about 75, his discription and the incidences of suddenly looking stressed and old, as well as his general vitality all seem consistent with people in the real world who are age 75 and in good health. Don't know if that adds anything to the discussion, but there you have it. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 14 21:37:16 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 21:37:16 -0000 Subject: i think i'm onto something - Cedric Diggory! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" > wrote: > > ... When H/R/H go to the kitchens and tickle the pear - > > Harry says something about having wondered about where that door > > led ever since he saw Cedric go through it the night after the > > names were drawn. ... > > > Ginger: > > Oh, dear, Gina, I hate to burst your bubble. You were right about > it being the same door Cedric went through to get to his room the > night the names were drawn. ...edited... > > Ginger, who never really liked Amos, but felt sorry for him when Ced > died. bboy_mn: Let's get our doors straight here. There are TWO doors. One is the door/stairway off the Entrance Hall that leads down to the corridor that is wide, clean, and bright, unlike the dungeons, and is lined with pictures of food (like bowls of fruit). In this underground hallway, is one particular painting that has a pear on it, tickle that pear, and another door appears that is the entrance to the kitchens. The fact that the Entrance Hall door/stairway leads to a hallway that in turn leads to both the kitchen, and the Hufflepuff common room and dorms is incidental. That fact that that Hufflepuffs walk that underground hallway every day doesn't necessarily mean that they know where the kitchens are or how to get in. Harry's reference is to Cedric entering the Hallway, not to Cedric entering the kitchen. Just passing it along. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri May 14 21:47:33 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 21:47:33 -0000 Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: <57450.143.250.2.102.1084561647.squirrel@www4.neonramp.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David Burgess" wrote: Dave: > Umbridge is sometimes used to describe what someone feels when they think > they've been insulted or slighted. Common use is "to take umbridge" with > a statement or position. I can't think of another colloquialism that > would mean quite the same thing, unless it was something like "got his > shorts in a knot about" the statement. I'm not sure it's any clearer that > way, but the former is much more haughty - Thurston Howell III would take > umbridge, Gilligan would get his shorts in a knot. > > >I haven't figured out what Fudge stands for though. > > In American English, to 'fudge' sometimes means 'to cheat a little bit'. Geoff: A correction and a couple of observations. (1) We take "umbrage" not "umbridge". The latter is obviously JKR's invented name but the intention is for us to recognise the connotation. (2) UK English also has "fudge". (3) In UK English, we would probably "get our knickers in a twist" From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri May 14 22:02:51 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 22:02:51 -0000 Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98379 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: Gina: > > Okay let me clarify - I know it is possible Tom could be related > "heir" > > of Slytherin, but why would SS RECOGNIZE a mudblood as his heir? Geoff: But we've already said that he is NOT a mudblood, he is a half-blood. Let's have a look at canon.... 'Riddle's face contorted. Then he forced it into an awful smile. "So. Your mother died to save you. Yes, that's a powerful counter- charm. I can see now - there is nothing special about you, after all. I wondered you see. Because there are strange likenesses betwen us, Harry Potter. Even you must have noticed. Bith half-bloods, orphans, raised by Muggles."' (POA "The Heir of Slytherin" p.233 UK edition) Gina: > I was > just curious about whether he is really the heir or not. Maybe Harry IS the > heir and he needed Harry to come to that Chamber so he could try and kill > him??? I do think Harry is related to Riddle in some way, but I have not > made a connection yet. Geoff: Back to canon.... 'He pulled Harry's wand from his pocket and began to trace it through the air, writing three shimmering words: TOM MARVOLO RIDDLE Then he waved the wand once and the letters of his name rearranged themselves: I AM LORD VOLDEMORT "You see?" he whispered. "It was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only of course. You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself through my mother's side?.."' (POA "The Heir of Slytherin" p.231 UK edition) "Now, Harry, I'm going to teach you a little lesson. Let's match the powers of Lord Voldemort, heir of Salazar Slytherin, against famous Harry Potter and the best weapons Dumbledore can give him" (POA "The Heir of Slytherin" p.233 UK edition) From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri May 14 22:12:10 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:12:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Filk - Diggory Regrets... Message-ID: <127.40f17c50.2dd69e3a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98380 In a message dated 5/14/2004 2:56:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, starropal at hotmail.com writes: Diggory Regrets by Star Opal To the tune of Miss Otis Regrets, by Ella Fitzgerald ============= Sherrie here: HAVE to chime in on this - "Miss Otis Regrets" was composed by the great Cole Porter. (I've sung it in cabaret...) Sherrie (On my way to a Gershwin cabaret rehearsal!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 14 22:17:59 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 22:17:59 -0000 Subject: Aurors (was : Why were they going to arrest Hagrid?) In-Reply-To: <20040514175959.58092.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, animal lover wrote: > Del replies : > I don't want to nitpick, but Aurors are most definitely NOT "idiot > goons"! If I remember well, one needs at least 5 NEWTs to apply for > the job, > > > animallover_11: > > .... But any time that you need 4 or 5 people to take out MM and Hagrid you are not dealing with the smartest of characters. To be a good Auror you need both the book smarts and "street" smarts. ... It is all about finding balance between the books and common sense that makes you not an idiot!! > > If you also look at how good DJU feels that she is as well as Draco....they both need the "goon" strenghth to keep them safe. You don't see the true powerful wizards using goons to fight there battles. Does it not seem stange the LV is very much like Draco and DJU. He is very seldom doing his own bidding. He seems to use his messengers and goons to take care of things. > > animallover_11 bboy_mn now replies: Percisely my point AnimalLover_11. The 'idiot goon' comment I made was a side note, and was a generalization, it's scope was not limited to Umbridge and the arrest of Hagrid. Megalomaniacal people who fancy themselves powerful and brilliant usually get other people to do their dirty work for them. If Draco, for example, is the great and powerful wizard that he thinks he is, then why does he need Crabbe and Goyle at his side to intimidate everyone? It's easy to make yourself look brilliant when the people you hang around with at thick as a brick. Harry at least hangs out with people who are his intellectual and magical equal. Ron and Hermione are not simply 'window dressing' for Harry. As I said in my original post, Umbridge's actions were not about firing Hagrid, she could have done that with a letter, and even if she were intent on prosecuting Hagrid for criminal damage in the 'Niffler incident', she could have had the Aurors or more likely general law enforcement investigate. If she had done so, she would have discovered that there wasn't a shred of evidence tying Hagrid to either niffler incident. But Umbridge sneeked up on Hagrid in the dead of night with a team of Aurors with the sole intent of intimidating and bullying Hagrid, and demonstrating the absoluteness of her authority and power. This was all about power, it had nothing to do with crime or job performance. Umbridge had the administrative power to accomplish her goal relative to both crimes and job performance, but she had to see herself in the role of a mini-god; almighty and all powerful. Unfortunately, she does not appear to be sufficiently powerful, either magically or personally, to accomplish the goal, so she hired a team of goons to make up for her own lack of personal power, and in doing so, demonstrated he weakness instead of her strength. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri May 14 22:18:58 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 22:18:58 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" > wrote: > And as to Harry > > asking the wrong questions (or the wrong questions to the wrong > > people), as far as he knows these are the right people: DD, > Sirius, > > Remus, Mr. Weasley, etc. He's not a seer, after all. He's a kid. > > > But he never asks ANY questions! I mean...really! Kneasy's right. > If someone told YOU that you were in a book I BET you'd run out and > find a copy. Especially if you'd just found out your entire life was > something knew nothing about. HE DIDN'T! > If you were escorted to a bank and shown a HEAP OF GOLD COINS and > told they were YOURS, wouldn't you ASK WHERE THEY CAME FROM? Sorry, > your mom and dad left them ISN'T good enough for me. > > And all this is before he even MEETS Dumbledore. > > > Mel, nosy. Meri replies: You have a valid point. But remember, Harry spent ten years of his life reciting "don't ask questions", which was rule number one for a semi-quiet live at No. 4 Privet. The first time he really had a chance to question DD was in the Mirror of Erised scene, and even there Harry isn't sure that DD is being entirely truthful (the question being, what does DD see in the Mirror). And even when Harry asks the vital and crucial question (why did LV want him dead) in the hospital wing at the end of SS, DD tells him that he can't answer that, and not to ask again. What's an eleven year old boy who's just had a near death experience to do but listen to the wizard who just saved his life. Anyway, give Harry a little credit: he knew the question to ask, and even the person to ask it to. He just didn't get an answer. Meri - defending Harry despite his faults. From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri May 14 22:22:31 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 22:22:31 -0000 Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98383 Gina wrote: My grasp for straws was that maybe Harry could have said stop but having been told he couldn't didn't try. Maybe Riddle knew that or maybe he didn't - we know he has underestimated Harry before. Are we to assume that Riddle overheard that Harry could speak parsel tongue or did someone tell him? How did he know? vmonte responds: Ginny probably told him. vmonte From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 14 22:52:48 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 22:52:48 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - Abuse and Oppression. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" > wrote: > > > ... he never asks ANY questions! I mean...really! Kneasy's right. > > If someone told YOU that you were in a book I BET you'd run out > > and find a copy. Especially if you'd just found out your entire > > life was something knew nothing about. HE DIDN'T! ...edited... > > > > > > Mel, nosy. > > Meri replies: > You have a valid point. But remember, Harry spent ten years of his > life reciting "don't ask questions", which was rule number one for a > semi-quiet live at No. 4 Privet. ...edited... > > Meri - defending Harry despite his faults. bboy_mn: There is one HUGE factor that people are forgetting when discussing Harry and why he never asks question. Meri has touched on it, but it goes far far beyond 'don't ask questions'. People need to give much greater consideration to a kid growing up in a highly oppressive and abusive environment. To a kid in an abusive home, every minute of everyday is lived in an unmarked mine field; one mis-step, one wrong move, sometime just the slightest tremor is enough to set the bomb off. Adult who perpetrate that kind of environment are violent, irrational, illogical, unreasonable people who actions don't make any sense even to an intelligent informed adult, and are far far far far far beyond the comprehension and logic of a helpless little kid. There is only one thing a kid can do in a situation like that, and the is keep you head down and stay as anonymous as possible. As I said, to a kid like this, adults are hopelessly irrational, illogical, and violent. Asking a question in far more likely to result in punishment than an answer, and that is unrelated to the reasonableness of the question. Making the slightest noise result in punishment. Making the smallest mistake is a miserable disaster. A kid doesn't turn to adults for help, when his full scale of models for adults indicate that to do so is a major disaster waiting to happen. A kid like this doesn't ask questions, because he knows that knowing the answer could never ever be worth the pain and misery that result from asking. So, Harry is a loner. There are few people he trust in this life, and even fewer that he would even remotely consider confiding in. He even keeps some distance from Ron and Hermione. His experience in his early life has taught him, that friends are something that can easily be driven away by the likes of Dudley. So, Harry finds his own answers in his own way. He fights his own battles because life has proven the HE is the only person that he can truly depend on. He doesn't ask for help because life has taught him that he has no reasonable expectation that help will be given. In fact, the bulk of the evident in his life is that asking for help brings pain and misery. Given all those circumstances, Harry actions are not that unpredictable. It is most unfair to say, well, I would have done this, or I would have done that. Unless you have grown up in a grossly oppressive and abusive environment, what you might do carries no weight. Some will argue that now Harry does have people he can trust. Who? Dumbledore who selectively feeds him the truth at Dumbledore's own convinience? Hermione who aided McGonnagal in confiscating he magnificent broom? Ron who was jealous of Harry entering the Tri-Wizards tournement? Lupin who he trust, but who deserted him after one year? Sirius who has his own demons and is never around? We all know that Harry CAN approach these people, but Harry is fighting a decade of evidence and conditioning to the contrary. To ASK is to RISK, to stay quiet is to be safe. Considering that he has way too much danger in his life, I see no problem with him continually taking the safe route in these matters. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri May 14 22:53:03 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 08:53:03 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Names In-Reply-To: <33325.143.250.2.102.1084552509.squirrel@www4.neonramp.com> References: <1084316120.6177.18558.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <40A5DA6F.19607.2C57E2@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 98385 On 14 May 2004 at 11:35, David Burgess wrote: > When a student is talking to > - a teacher about a teacher: title and last name > - a teacher (other than their head of house) about another student: first > and last name > - a student about a teacher: title and last name > - a student about another student: first name Hi Dave, The thing is though these schools (British boarding schools) have their own rules. And they're a bit different. Now, of course, not all schools follow these 'rules' rigidly - but books in the 'school story' tradition generally do, because as I've said previously, those books tend to be even better exemplars of the 'School traditions' than the schools themselves really are. And one of these 'traditions' - or really I suppose it's better to call it a developed practice - is that students generally address each other by their surnames. It's not at all disrespectful - it's the way things are done. At times, at some schools, it's becomes such accepted practice, that you even use surnames to describe different siblings - and you add on a suffix to distinguish them, rather than use their first names - for example, Smith Major, and Smith Minor - or Jones I, Jones II, Jones III... there's a few different variations. The point is, among your equals, using a surname is not disrespectful - it's simply the way things are. At my school (which was an Australian school set up in the late 19th century as a copy of the best British schools - and which even today still embraces the traditions and practices they copied from there), which I started in 1988, finishing school in 1992, this is the way things worked - and I know it was similar in a lot of other schools on the same model. We weren't totally rigid on it anymore - I don't know if we ever were, actually. Now at my school, this is how it worked, roughly. Teacher to another teacher (if students could hear): Title and Surname. Teacher of another teacher: Title and Surname. Student to a teacher: Sir, Ma'am, Miss, or Title and Surname (at my school, we also had Father and Brother - but you'd rarely use those titles talking to a teacher - they were just Sir). Student of a teacher to another student: Properly speaking, Title and Surname - although it wasn't that uncommon to use Sir in this context as well ("Sir told me to tell you...") if it wouldn't cause confusion. Teacher to a student: Surname - *unless* the student was a specific charge of yours, or sometimes if they were in some sort of distress, in which case you might use a first name. Student to another student: Surname when dealing with anyone except your closest friends. With your close friends, first names were commonly used. One big exception to that rule related to Prefects - Prefects were commonly addressed by their first names, and that was considered a term of respect. Theoretically, prefects would address all other boys by their first name as well, but in practice, you often didn't have a clue what everybody's first name was! I don't want to go on forever about this - my point is, though, that it's rather awkward to try and assess the courtesies in a school - especially a school like Hogwarts which is probably very tradition-bound in many ways given its age - based on what happens in the outside world, or in other organisations. Schools form their own rules - and in a lot of schools from the British Public School tradition, which Hogwarts does seem to draw from in many ways - the use of Surnames alone as a common and completely courteous form of address among equals has long been perfectly acceptable. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From lmthib at earthlink.net Fri May 14 20:11:13 2004 From: lmthib at earthlink.net (Lynette) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:11:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: another LV - Riddle question Message-ID: <31386611.1084565473052.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98386 Gina: * My grasp for straws was that maybe Harry could have said stop but having been told he couldn't didn't try. Maybe Riddle knew that or maybe he didn't - we know he has underestimated Harry before. Are we to assume that Riddle overheard that Harry could speak parseltongue or did someone tell him? How did he know? Lynette: You had to be able to speak parseltongue in order to open both of the doors to the chamber - in the bathroom and the one below. As to why SS recognized TR as his true heir - he could speak parseltongue, he studied the dark arts for years, he agreed with the no mud-bloods (even though he was a half blood), and he cared enough to try to find the chamber for years. His hatred of his muggle father increased his hatred of the mud-bloods. The magic that SS left to protect the chamber recognized this kindred of spirit in TR. A point of interest - a cousin of mine has traced the family for 350 years and has a book that lists most of them with over 18,000 names from one set of parents. How many possible heirs would there be from one pairing over 1,000 years ago? Lynette Hermione is misunderstood ADMIN NOTE: If you want to discuss the question posed in the last paragraph, please do so on Off-Topic Chatter: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-otchatter/ unless your post *also* makes a canon point. From jinsler3 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 22:01:26 2004 From: jinsler3 at yahoo.com (jinsler3) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 22:01:26 -0000 Subject: Gleam of Triumph: Protection backfiring on Voldemort? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98387 Dumbledore's gleam of triumph at the end of GOF remains mysterious even now that we know both the prophecy about Harry and Voldemort and more about the connection between them. The gleam came right after Harry explained how Voldemort used Harry's blood to transfer Lily's protection into himself, enabling him to touch Harry. Why would this prompt such a small but positive response from Dumbledore? As a master Dark wizard, Voldemort should know all of the risks of using another wizard's blood in such a way. It seems unlikely that using Harry's blood would make him any more mortal than any other wizard's blood, and if it made Voldemort particularly vulnerable to Harry, he would never have dared to duel Harry as he did immediately after his resurrection. I believe that Dumbledore's tiny gleam of triumph came not because Voldemort merely used Harry's blood but because Voldemort foolishly put Harry's protection into his own veins. The sacrifice of Lily Potter was part of the ancient magic that Voldemort despises and underestimates, so if he made an error in his resurrection, it would involve this. Logically, it should be incredibly dangerous for a being like Voldemort to take such a powerful love-based protection into his own veins. Dumbledore understands the ancient magic much better than Voldemort and may have realized that the protection might turn against Voldemort, literally consuming him from the inside. Perhaps (venturing even deeper into the realm of speculation) if Voldemort touches someone else who strongly loves or is loved by Harry, the protection will awaken and destroy him. But this may be an unlikely event, explaining why the gleam was short-lived; also, even if the protection consumes Voldemort's body, his spirit may still survive until Harry directly does away with it. "jinsler" From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 23:49:29 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 23:49:29 -0000 Subject: Victor Krum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98388 Could Victor Krum be a male Veela and are Veela part bird? At the quidditch world cup when the Veela were angry, Harry said that "their faces were elongating into sharp, cruel-beaked bird heads, and long, scaly wings were bursting from their shoulders"(GOF pg. 111). Harry had described Krum as looking " thin, dark, and sallow-skinned, with a large curved nose and thick black eyebrows. He looked like an overgrown bird of prey" (GOF pg.105), also when Krum did the Wronski Feint Harry describes Krum as though he was not using a broomstick at all; he moved so easily through the air that he looked unsupported and weightless (GOF pg. 109). Could Krum be a Veela or is he a half-breed of some kind with bird-like looks and capabilities? The Veela when angry look like a bird and Krum also looks like a bird and is described as flying like a bird i.e. weightless and unsupported. Could Krum be a male version of a Veela? Can he actually fly without a broom? How could this be of use in later books? In the most recent chat, JKR said that we would see Krum again although not soon. Any ideas? Snow-aka Kathy King From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 14 20:32:08 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 20:32:08 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98389 Okay, if Snape's not ESE, then why did he stop teaching Harry Occlumancy? Considering all the posts regarding respect and the military, he disobeyed a direct order from DD. Furthermore, regardless of whether Snape knew LV's plans regarding Harry and merging his thoughts with Harry's, one of the people Snape hates the most conveniently gets killed because Harry didn't block out LV. If Snape had continued to teach Harry, then Sirius wouldn't have gotten killed because the DA wouldn't have known to go to the DoM. And yes, most posters seem to agree that Snape behaves very childishly, like he's stuck on the things that have happened to him in the past. But that's also a very convenient explanation, in a way. He can hate Harry outright, he can disobey a direct order from DD, get a member of the Order killed (conveniently a member whom he really hates) get several of the children he despises hurt in the process, and yet he still has his job teaching, still seems to have DD's favor, and still gets to behave like a self-absorbed teenager. I'd personally like it better if he didn't get redemption, but his just desserts instead. Susan (who apologizes sincerely to all you out there who love Snape ;-) From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri May 14 23:53:38 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 23:53:38 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - Abuse and Oppression. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98390 bboy_mn wrote: We all know that Harry CAN approach these people, but Harry is fighting a decade of evidence and conditioning to the contrary. To ASK is to RISK, to stay quiet is to be safe. Considering that he has way too much danger in his life, I see no problem with him continually taking the safe route in these matters. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. vmonte responds: I agree with bboy_mn. I also think that having Harry not ask questions is the way JKR avoids revealing information she is saving for later books. vmonte From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 15 00:20:01 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 00:20:01 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98391 Meri wrote: > > And as to Harry asking the wrong questions (or the wrong > > questions to the wrong people), as far as he knows these are the > > right people: DD, Sirius, Remus, Mr. Weasley, etc. He's not a > > seer, after all. He's a kid. Mel: > But he never asks ANY questions! I mean...really! Kneasy's right. > If someone told YOU that you were in a book I BET you'd run out > and find a copy. Especially if you'd just found out your entire > life was something knew nothing about. HE DIDN'T! If you were > escorted to a bank and shown a HEAP OF GOLD COINS and > told they were YOURS, wouldn't you ASK WHERE THEY CAME FROM? > Sorry, your mom and dad left them ISN'T good enough for me. > > And all this is before he even MEETS Dumbledore. > > Mel, nosy. Siriusly Snapey Susan: This is so fun to read everyone's thoughts on this. :-) I sense a fair bit of frustration with our Harry for his failings in this area. And I include myself in that, btw. "Ask the QUESTION, Harry!" I've been known to snarl at the book. I've also been known to offer up the excuse that Harry was told so often from the age of 15 months to 11 years to "Be quiet!" and "Don't ask questions!" that it became a way of life for him to just accept and not ask. But of course, the REAL ANSWER to all this...and we all know it, it just frustrates some of us more than others...is that JKR can't allow Harry to ask those questions yet because she'd give too much away. I *love* Jen's suggestion [#98371] that Harry will "step up to the plate" from here on in and ask loads of questions, demand all kinds of answers. Hopefully we're near enough to the end of the series that JKR will "allow" that now! Go Harry--the time is now!! Siriusly Snapey Susan From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat May 15 00:18:21 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 00:18:21 -0000 Subject: Victor Krum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98392 Could Victor Krum be a male Veela and are Veela part bird? At the quidditch world cup when the Veela were angry, Harry said that "their faces were elongating into sharp, cruel-beaked bird heads, and long, scaly wings were bursting from their shoulders"(GOF pg. 111). Harry had described Krum as looking " thin, dark, and sallow-skinned, with a large curved nose and thick black eyebrows. He looked like an overgrown bird of prey" (GOF pg.105), also when Krum did the Wronski Feint Harry describes Krum as though he was not using a broomstick at all; he moved so easily through the air that he looked unsupported and weightless (GOF pg. 109). Could Krum be a Veela or is he a half-breed of some kind with bird-like looks and capabilities? The Veela when angry look like a bird and Krum also looks like a bird and is described as flying like a bird i.e. weightless and unsupported. Could Krum be a male version of a Veela? Can he actually fly without a broom? How could this be of use in later books? In the most recent chat, JKR said that we would see Krum again although not soon. Any ideas? Snow-aka Kathy King From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat May 15 00:30:03 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 00:30:03 -0000 Subject: Why we SHIP (WAS: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98393 Mandy here: But, I must confess I don't really understand the urge that some fans have to marry off all the kids to each other before their 18th birthdays. There are no books 8 or 9 and I'm afraid you are all doomed to ship for eternality, as no resolution is forthcoming imo. Bookworm: In an interview, JKR said: <<"The final chapter for Book Seven is written. I wrote that just for my own satisfaction, really as an act of faith. (To say) I will get here in the end. In that chapter you do, I hope, feel a sense of resolution. You do find out what happens to the survivors. I know that sounds very ominous (laughs).">> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000- oregonian-baker.htm?/books/00/10/al_11browl22.frame I took that to mean we will find out what happens to them as adults. So we may not *see* our favorite pairings get married, but hopefully we will hear about it, just as we will find out which character (JKR says it is not Harry) will become a Hogwarts teacher. So trying to predict who will pair off with whom is just part of the fun of divination. Ravenclaw Bookworm From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 15 00:44:33 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 00:44:33 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98394 Susan wrote: > Okay, if Snape's not ESE, then why did he stop teaching Harry > Occlumancy? Considering all the posts regarding respect and the > military, he disobeyed a direct order from DD. Furthermore, > regardless of whether Snape knew LV's plans regarding Harry and > merging his thoughts with Harry's, one of the people Snape hates > the most conveniently gets killed because Harry didn't block out > LV. If Snape had continued to teach Harry, then Sirius wouldn't > have gotten killed because the DA wouldn't have known to go to the > DoM. > > He can hate Harry outright, he can disobey a direct order from DD, > get a member of the Order killed (conveniently a member whom he > really hates) get several of the children he despises hurt in the > process, and yet he still has his job teaching, still seems to > have DD's favor, and still gets to behave like a self-absorbed > teenager. I'd personally like it better if he didn't get > redemption, but his just desserts instead. > > Susan (who apologizes sincerely to all you out there who love > Snape ;-) Another Susan (Siriusly Snapey) replies: Well, I don't love Snape, and I don't always "apologize" for him, but I do find him fascinating, intriguing, mysterious--the most enjoyable adult character to read about. I also don't believe he's ESE. Then why did he stop teaching Harry Occlumency? I can think of a number of reasons. First, Snape, like many of us, is a flawed human. He possesses skill and talent and a great snarky wit. But he is nowhere near perfect. [I've argued ad nauseum, for instance, that *good* teachers who are concerned about particular pupils learning, assess their effectiveness, and Snape doesn't.] But I believe Snape stopped teaching Harry Occlumency because he was LIVID, because he felt Harry was not trying and therefore not learning, and perhaps because it was painful to have to go through the process with Harry Potter. Could he have successfully taught Draco Malfoy? Probably. But Draco would have been willing, Draco wouldn't have been filled with rage just looking at his teacher, Snape wouldn't have been filled with loathing just in looking at his pupil. There was too much ANGST in the setting, and I think Snape knew that it wasn't working **and** couldn't get over how p*ssed he was that Harry looked into the penseive. I disagree, btw, that continuing to teach Harry would have prevented Sirius' death. Given that DD wasn't around to supervise and step in, I think the lack of progress would have continued. No, I actually fault Snape more for not providing more *explanation* at the beginning and for riling Harry up instead of helping him calm down in those first couple of lessons than I do for his quitting when he did. He disobeyed a direct order from Dumbledore, yes. THAT part surprises me. But I think flawed Snape just couldn't take it any more. I would love to have heard DD's conversation w/ Snape about that insubordination, but alas, JKR didn't make us privy to it. Siriusly Snapey Susan From doliesl at yahoo.com Sat May 15 00:51:56 2004 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 00:51:56 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > > "K" wrote: > > It is at this time that JKR once again addresses the love issue: > > > > ~~JKR: I promise you, whoever asked **that question**, can I just > > say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that > > and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. > > That's all I'm going to say.~~ > > If we are to continue nitpicking ;-), I'd like to add that the > word "stunned" strikes me as being more negative than positive, more > like, "holy sh%t, what on earth made you think that?!" not like, "oh > wow, I'm really surprised you guessed what was coming for him." So, > regardless if they were speaking about love or redemption, I still > have a feeling that Snape might not really be that good of a guy. > Sure, I'd like to see it in a way, but it seems rather predictable. Well I suggest you (all of you debating one way or another) to listen to the actual audio version of this interview (search for the NPR archive, it's available online), that'll give you a more accurate view of what her tone was when saying the above quote. What did not get transcript in text was when the interview asked about the "There is a Redemption pattern to Snape," JKR voiceover him and said "Yes, he is isn't he." (so YES she admits there is a redemption theme going on for Snape, and this interview is held at the time of POA). Her reaction to the "love" question are hysterical laughter and high pitch yelling, "YEAHH~~~" (not necessasry mean yes but a very delightful cheer), and when she said "you'll find out why I'm so stunned" she sounded very giddy as she was recovering from the laughters and tried to submerge her amusement. It sound rather hopeful and not the type of ill-feeling or denoucing a ESE person, because she sound like she was having so much fun. D. From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sat May 15 01:01:46 2004 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 01:01:46 -0000 Subject: Gleam of Triumph: Protection backfiring on Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98396 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jinsler3" wrote: > Dumbledore's gleam of triumph at the end of GOF remains mysterious > even now that we know both the prophecy about Harry and Voldemort > and more about the connection between them. The gleam came right > after Harry explained how Voldemort used Harry's blood to transfer > Lily's protection into himself, enabling him to touch Harry. Why > would this prompt such a small but positive response from > Dumbledore? > > I believe that Dumbledore's tiny gleam of triumph came not because > Voldemort merely used Harry's blood but because Voldemort > foolishly put Harry's protection into his own veins. The sacrifice > of Lily Potter was part of the ancient magic that Voldemort despises > and underestimates, so if he made an error in his resurrection, it > would involve this. Logically, it should be incredibly dangerous for > a being like Voldemort to take such a powerful love-based protection > into his own veins. Dumbledore understands the ancient magic much > better than Voldemort and may have realized that the protection > might turn against Voldemort, literally consuming him from the > inside. Perhaps (venturing even deeper into the realm of > speculation) if Voldemort touches someone else who strongly loves or > is loved by Harry, the protection will awaken and destroy him. But > this may be an unlikely event, explaining why the gleam was > short-lived; also, even if the protection consumes Voldemort's body, > his spirit may still survive until Harry directly does away with it. > > "jinsler" Max responds: I had a similar theory last year. I called it 'Will Love be the Death of Voldemort?' I imagined Lily's love protection eating away at Voldemort from the inside rather like a growing cancer. This 'cancer' would not kill him, but would grow silently making him vulnerable to Harry in ways he would not be aware of. I've read other similar theories, and I must say I still like the basic premise. Dumbledore's look of triumph, Voldemort's inability to possess Harry, and Dumbledore description of the locked room at the DoM all begin to neatly fall together like pieces of a puzzle. And this, ironically enough, happens to be my main problem with the theory. It's all too predictable and straightforward. I sincerely hope JKR will offer us more of a twist at the end of this tale, something more convoluted and complex. That said, I still believe that Voldemort using Harry's blood will backfire in some way. And the contents of the locked room - that which Harry has within him in abundance - will be honed in some way as a weapon against Voldemort. So *will* love be the death of Voldemort? Possibly, though I rather think it will be something much larger than simple, personal love. Max From conquistas2000 at yahoo.com Sat May 15 01:08:29 2004 From: conquistas2000 at yahoo.com (conquistas2000) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 01:08:29 -0000 Subject: Invisibility cloak, err coat becomes reality Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98397 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2777111.stm From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 15 01:23:31 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 01:23:31 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98398 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > Our eponymous hero struggles with monsters, Dark Wizards > and occasionally with his friends. Life is dark, desperate and > seemingly without succour. In between all these shenanagins > he makes fitful but apparently futile attempts to find out more > about his parents and the circumstances surrounding the > events at Godric's Hollow. > > Sometimes I get the impression that we feel more urgency > regarding these questions than Harry does, 'cos he keeps > making a pigs ear of it. He *always* asks the wrong people, > or if not the wrong people, then at the wrong time, or both. > > But there is someone he's never asked; someone who has > already volunteered that they are in possession of a great > deal of information about Harry - Hermione. > > Oh, yes! Little-miss-know-it-all let the cat out of the bag > in PS/SS chap.6 when she first meets Harry and Ron on > the Hogwarts Express: > > "I know all about you, of course - I got a few extra books > for background reading, and you're in "Modern Magical > History" and "The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts" and > "Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century." > "Am I?" said Harry, feeling dazed. > "Goodness, didn't you know, I'd have found out everything > I could if it was me," said Hermione. > > Harry, being as thick as two short planks, never raises the > subject again during the next 5 years. > Oh, and is there something in the highly sanitized, extremely selective and glossing over some of the less pleasant aspects of the recent hostilities accounts of the Great War (they wouldn't have called it the First Voldemort War, would they) that Harry ought to know? From the quills of people who can't even say Lord, er, Thingy? I doubt it. Hermione was shocked to learn that Sirius and many others were sent to Azkaban without trial, she doesn't know why Rita Skeeter has a low opinion of Bagman, she doesn't warn Harry that Macnair was once accused of being a Death Eater etc. No, I think those books are remarkable for what isn't in them. There's only one person who's not reticent in discussing the Great War, and who actually knows something: Mad-eye Moody. Harry has no desire to hear about it from him and who can blame him. The kid was having nightmares already. And have you noticed that every time he learns a little bit more about his parents' deaths, his nightmares get worse? No wonder he's not asking questions! I am a little bit curious about the books in the smallest bedroom on Privet Drive, the ones no one's ever touched. Where did they come from, do you suppose? The Dursleys don't seem like book buying types to me. Wonder if any of Lily's old school things are sitting on the shelves? Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 15 01:36:18 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 01:36:18 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98399 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > Okay, if Snape's not ESE, then why did he stop teaching Harry Occlumancy? Considering all the posts regarding respect and the military, he disobeyed a direct order from DD. < Actually, we don't know whether Snape disobeyed any order from Dumbledore. He was ordered to give Harry Occlumency lessons, and he did. Whether he was ordered to continue those lessons, despite that they weren't helping, and after Harry had twice managed to gain unauthorized access to Snape's own memories, we don't know. Just because Lupin and Sirius didn't know that Snape had stopped the lessons doesn't mean that Dumbledore didn't know. He doesn't tell everything he knows by a long shot. Pippin From erikal at magma.ca Sat May 15 02:43:52 2004 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 21:43:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship Message-ID: <017901c43a26$75f86d80$e98b1a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 98400 Erika : > It's possible I suppose, but highly unlikely IMO, and, to be > frank, I think I'd be a little disappointed that a character who's > been such a nonentity through most of the series would snag the > lead man. Del replied : >But Pansy has *not* been a non-entity. Harry has known her for a >very long time, and that's already a miracle. Isn't saying he knows her a bit strong? He's been aware of her existence; that's about the extent of it. And yes, given his track record that may be saying something, but it seems to me she has only stood out in his mind as being one of the unpleasant lot of Sylterins. That hardly seems conducive to shipping. Del: >By the way, I guess you object to the Luna/Harry pairings then, >because if anyone was a non-entity for 4 years, it was Luna. And if >it had been up to Harry, things would have stayed that way ! Please don't make assumptions about what I do an don't object to. I admit that Rowling did an amazing job of making Luna a fully fleshed out character in a very short span of time. It's possible that she could do that with Pansy- I'm not saying it isn't; I just don't happen to believe it. Not only would Rowling have to build her up as a character, she would also have to overcome the reader's perception of Pansy as an antagonist to Harry. Certainly she's not been nice. One can argue that her actions at certain points of GoF are ambiguous, but in PoA she is clearly one of the Syltherins tormenting Harry for having passed out on the Hogwarts Express (75 PoA UK). Del wrote: >But wasn't one of the major lessons Harry learned in OoP that people >can change ? James was a total jerk at 15, and Lily despised him >completely. Yet she started going out with him barely 2 years later, >and then married him. Why couldn't Pansy do the same ? > Moreover, it's *high time* JKR finally builds a strong, real, 3- > dimensional Slytherin kid character. So the fact that Pansy is from > Slytherin is actually IMO a good point for her. > Marcus replied: >Oh so true. That has been the weakest point of the series so far, >IMO. Slytherins being so 1 or 2 dimensional. We has excused it as >being the POV of an 11-15 year old. Well, now Harry is older and it >is *high time* he (we) start seeing some decent Slytherin kids. Granted, it's possible that Pansy will change and turn out to be the theoretical Good Slytherin, but why a ship? Is there anything to suggest it at all? Have they even had a conversation in five years? And why Pansy in the first place? We already have a repentant/reformed Slytherin with Snape. Wouldn't it be more useful to see a Slytherin who isn't nasty to begin with? Or is that asking too much? Theodore Nott or Blaise Zambini have a clean track record as far as we know so they could just as easily be candidates if we ever do meet a Good Slytherin. Blaise is even a Saint's name IIRC. And even if Pansy is to become the Good Sylth, why a ship? Del: >And we also have to remember that the story is told from Harry's >point of view. And at the precise moment, Harry thinks Pansy is all >evil, so of course he sees her in a completely negative light. It is Harry's POV, but the story isn't told in Harry's words; it remains a limited third person narration and the narrator still has some control over the wording, so I think we have to be wary of dismissing every character description as being entirely a matter of Harry's perception. Del: >Take the example of Harry's feelings towards Sirius in PoA. At the >beginning of the book, he doesn't even know him. Then he learns >about him being an escaped convict, but he doesn't care. Then he >becomes aware of a connection between him and Sirius, and still he >doesn't care. Then he discovers that Sirius supposedly betrayed his >parents, and he suddenly hates Sirius and wants him dead for several >months. But when the truth is revealed, he immediately changes his >disposition, he wants to live with Sirius, he's completely out of >his mind with worry when Sirius is caught, and he takes tremendous >risks to save his life. >So I don't see why Pansy couldn't come around too and realise that >she's been spending her affection on the wrong person. Yes but some readers have complained that they were not entirely convinced by Harry's sudden affection for and attachment to Sirius; I remember threads about it after OoP came out. It's a matter of whether Rowling can pull off such a significant about-face effectively. Erika: > Seems to me there's a long way to go before we see a Harry/Pansy > ship. Del replied: >Not to me. On the contrary, it seems to me like it could happen very >quickly if JKR wants it that way. It took only one conversation with >Luna for Harry to stop despising her. I don't see that it would >necessarily take much longer for him to change his mind about Pansy. Yes, but he never actually _despised_ Luna. He thought she was a bit mad perhaps, but I never got the impression that he really disliked let a lone despised her. In contrast, I would think that there's good deal more antipathy towards Pansy, which would require more work to overcome. Del: >I'm not saying Harry/Pansy *will* happen, I'm just saying it's not >at all impossible as far as I can see, considering what we know now. Well I don't think it's impossible either, just unlikely. Del: >Del, who thinks it's quite revealing of Pansy's inner contradictions >that she was wearing a pale pink frilly robe at the Yule Ball... Sort of like Umbridge, don't you think? Pink cardigans, lacy fabrics, doilies, ornamental plates with kittens and bows on the one hand, Dementors, writing lines and blood, and almost using Crucio on a fifteen year old on the other hand. Marcus: >Here is something else to think about. Pansy got nailed with antlers >in OoP -- not horns, mind you -- antlers! Now I am not usually one >for fore-shadowing. I generally dismiss it as being too woolly and >inprecise. I am a Professor Binns and Professor McGonagall kind of >guy. However, this is just too stunning to ignore! I don't think antlers are enough to indicate ship foreshadowing. I mean look at Hermione for a second. She has a cat and she turned herself into one in CoS. Meanwhile, Ginny, on more than one occasion, has been compared to a cat. Should we then assume we're going to see a Hermione/Ginny ship? ;) Mandy >But, I must confess I don't really >understand the urge that some >fans have to marry off all the kids to >each other before their 18th >birthdays. >There are no books 8 or 9 and I'm afraid >you are all doomed to ship for >eternality, as no resolution is >forthcoming imo. Actually, I think most shippers are expecting to see the shipping situation resolved in the epilogue Rowling has apparently already written. Personally I would rather it not be resolved, that way no one's ship would have to sink, but I think Rowling's comments suggest that she's going to wrap it all up in that final chapter: Ananova December 2001 "Potter author knows how it will all end " In the programme she allows the cameras to see the final chapter, saying: "This is it and I'm not opening it for obvious reasons - this is really I'll wrap everything, it's the epilogue and I basically say what happens to everyone after they leave school, those who survive - because there are deaths, more deaths coming." http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/1201-ananova-staff.htm Just my two knuts, Erika (Wolfraven) For friendly shipping discussion join us at The Great Debate http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGreatDebate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 15 02:59:33 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 02:59:33 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98401 Susan wrote: > > Okay, if Snape's not ESE, then why did he stop teaching Harry > Occlumancy? Potioncat: Actually, if he was ESE!Snape, he would have continued teaching Potter. Afterall, he was getting a really good look into the Dark Lord's mind, wasn't he? What I've never understood is why Snape was teaching Potter. It seems LV would have easily found out. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 15 03:09:08 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 03:09:08 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98402 > Another Susan (Siriusly Snapey) replies: > Could he have successfully taught Draco Malfoy? Probably. But > Draco would have been willing, Draco wouldn't have been filled with > rage just looking at his teacher, Snape wouldn't have been filled > with loathing just in looking at his pupil. There was too much > ANGST in the setting, and I think Snape knew that it wasn't working > **and** couldn't get over how p*ssed he was that Harry looked into > the penseive. Potioncat: I knew if I waited, you or Carol would show up with a well written explanation! On this side topic, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Snape, using his current method could have taught a Slytherin occlumency because they trust him. Just like Crouch/Moody taught unforgivables to the Gryffindors. (I wonder how he did with the Slytherins?) I know Snape is flawed, who isn't in these books, but I'd be pretty upset if someone went into my pensieve as well! Potioncat From patientx3 at aol.com Sat May 15 03:14:17 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 03:14:17 -0000 Subject: Aurors (was : Why were they going to arrest Hagrid?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98403 bboy_mn: >>But Umbridge sneeked up on Hagrid in the dead of night with a team of Aurors with the sole intent of intimidating and bullying Hagrid, and demonstrating the absoluteness of her authority and power. This was all about power, it had nothing to do with crime or job performance.<< HunterGreen: Especially since she only 'proved' he was a bad teacher, which had nothing to do with his gamekeeping duties, and therefore him being fired as a teacher didn't excise him from the school. Her coming down there in the middle of the night with several hours and the intent of throwing him off the grounds was absolutely ridiculous. She hoped to annoy him and get himself into trouble, which of course he did. Unless she was firing him as gamekeeper as well as a teacher (and as far as game-keeping went, she had no reason to fire him), she didn't have the right to remove him from the school. Obviously, her treatment of Hargrid had more to do with his loyalty to Dumbledore than anything else. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 15 03:17:27 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 03:17:27 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > Okay, if Snape's not ESE, then why did he stop teaching Harry > Occlumancy? Considering all the posts regarding respect and the > military, he disobeyed a direct order from DD. Furthermore, > regardless of whether Snape knew LV's plans regarding Harry and > merging his thoughts with Harry's, one of the people Snape hates the > most conveniently gets killed because Harry didn't block out LV. If > Snape had continued to teach Harry, then Sirius wouldn't have gotten > killed because the DA wouldn't have known to go to the DoM. > > And yes, most posters seem to agree that Snape behaves very childishly, > like he's stuck on the things that have happened to him in the past. > But that's also a very convenient explanation, in a way. He can hate > Harry outright, he can disobey a direct order from DD, get a member > of the Order killed (conveniently a member whom he really hates) get > several of the children he despises hurt in the process, and yet he > still has his job teaching, still seems to have DD's favor, and still > gets to behave like a self-absorbed teenager. I'd personally like it > better if he didn't get redemption, but his just desserts instead. > > Susan (who apologizes sincerely to all you out there who love > Snape ;-) Oh,my... I can't believe myself. I am going to ... defend Snape. :o) (well, kind of). Anybody who reads my posts knows that I am fascinated by Snape-Harry relationship in a way, which makes me criticise Snape really harshly. To call his behaviour childish is a huge understatement, IMO. I would call him a pathetic, sad human being, who from the victim of chidhood bullying transformed into bully himself and who in addition is allowed to abuse his authority as a teacher on a day to day basis. I would say that emotionally he is still in his teens, etc., etc., etc. But I DON'T think that I really believe in ESE!Snape, even though OoP kinda made me doubt that. Again, this is metathinking, but I think that JRK spent too much time and effort on this character to allow him to turned out ESE in the end. Her bad guys are usually not very well developed. I don't believe that Snape redeemed himself yet, far from it. Was it Neri who said that she sees Snape as a bad guy fighting for the good side? I agree with whoever said that. But I do believe that he will gain redemption in the end, whether he will survive or not. Having said all that, of course I want him to pay for his treatment of Harry and Neville and all Gryffs. The best due for Snape will be to encounter another life debt to Harry or even better - to Neville. :o) I also would like to say that I think we will be lead to believe that Snape will betray the Order, but that will turn out to be false in the end. Alla From patientx3 at aol.com Sat May 15 03:34:08 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 03:34:08 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98405 Potioncat wrote: >>What I've never understood is why Snape was teaching Potter. It seems LV would have easily found out.<< HunterGreen: How exactly? Obviously he's not going to find out from Snape's mind, because of the aforementioned Occulmency, and I don't see how he could find out from Harry either. We all know that Harry was getting glimpses of Voldemort's emotions/thoughts/plans etc., but does it work both ways? If it did, why did Voldemort not figure this out until the whole snake attacking Arthur incident? Harry has a piece of Voldemort in his head, that's the connnection, its never been shown that Voldemort has access to Harry the way Harry has access to him. This being the case, I'm not sure Occulmency would have done any good, even if Harry had actually worked at it. They were trying to teach Harry how to block the Legimens spell, which is not at all what Voldemort was doing. First Harry was having glimpses into Voldemort's mind, then VD realized this and *planted* something there, but none of that allows him to look around in Harry's mind. (of course I could be wrong here, but that's the impression I got from GoF / OoP). -Also, remember that Snape said that the mind isn't like a book. If Voldemort performed his legimency on Harry, he might see bits of Snape teaching him something, but that wouldn't be odd or particularly interesting to Voldemort, seeing how teaching is Snape's *job*. From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat May 15 04:04:41 2004 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 00:04:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98406 In a message dated 5/14/2004 8:48:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, patientx3 at aol.com writes: HunterGreen: How exactly? Obviously he's not going to find out from Snape's mind, because of the aforementioned Occulmency, and I don't see how he could find out from Harry either. We all know that Harry was getting glimpses of Voldemort's emotions/thoughts/plans etc., but does it work both ways? If it did, why did Voldemort not figure this out until the whole snake attacking Arthur incident? Cassie: That was explained in the book. Which I don't have on me (I need to stop being nice and lending my books out ><) It says that Voldemort was unaware that Harry had any access to his thoughts/emotions until that Arthur incident, which was such an extreme violation of his thoughts/emotions that he couldn't help but notice. After that he deduced he might be able to get into Harry's mind. That was the whole point of the Occlumency lesson, wasn't it? To keep Voldemort from entering Harry's mind. If he did have access to his thoughts and feelings he could see Harry's memory of an Occlumency lesson. Maybe even see through Harry's eyes without Harry's knowledge. Harry has a piece of Voldemort in his head, that's the connnection, its never been shown that Voldemort has access to Harry the way Harry has access to him. This being the case, I'm not sure Occulmency would have done any good, even if Harry had actually worked at it. They were trying to teach Harry how to block the Legimens spell, which is not at all what Voldemort was doing. Cassie: But remember, The "usual rules" don't seem to apply to Harry. Voldemort was able to access Harry's mind in the end. The Occlumency lessons might've only been a percaution, but they were right about LV in the end (even if they failed in the end) First Harry was having glimpses into Voldemort's mind, then VD realized this and *planted* something there, but none of that allows him to look around in Harry's mind. (of course I could be wrong here, but that's the impression I got from GoF / OoP). -Also, remember that Snape said that the mind isn't like a book. If Voldemort performed his legimency on Harry, he might see bits of Snape teaching him something, but that wouldn't be odd or particularly interesting to Voldemort, seeing how teaching is Snape's *job*. Cassie: Like I said above, if the connect works exactly the same both ways (which makes me wonder if Harry could plant things in LV's mind 0.0) There is a chance that Voldemort could see through Harry's eyes without his knowledge. I think there is a quote where Dumbledore says he thought he saw a shadow of Voldemort stirring behind Harry's eyes. And then there are those parts where Harry describes feeling as though a dormant snake were rising inside of him. Of course, we can't be sure. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat May 15 04:27:17 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 04:27:17 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98407 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Why doesn't Harry ask Hermione? Because she's a girl, and girls, especially swotty teacher's pet girls, have cooties. I spent most of my military career rolling my eyes at commanders who would look me dead in the face and say "You were right, Sergeant!" To which I would reply indignantly, "Why exactly does that surprise you?" Males don't listen to females at any age, unless we're talking mother. --JDR ("Fine, sir. It's not a land mine, it's a flat rock. But I'm going *this* way...") From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 15 06:20:35 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 06:20:35 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - Abuse and Oppression. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > bboy_mn wrote: > > We all know that Harry CAN approach these people, but Harry is > fighting a decade of evidence and conditioning to the contrary. To ASK > is to RISK, to stay quiet is to be safe. Considering that he has way > too much danger in his life, I see no problem with him continually > taking the safe route in these matters. > > That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > > > vmonte responds: > > I agree with bboy_mn. I also think that having Harry not ask > questions is the way JKR avoids revealing information she is saving > for later books. > > vmonte bboy_mn: I think between the two of us, we have explained it from both inside the story and from the outside. That is, from the story point of view and the author's point of view. It's true that Harry doesn't ask because JKR doesn't want us to know yet, but the more important factor, the factor I am trying to point out to people who say 'I would do this' and 'I would do that', is that, if you carefully look at Harry's character, you will find that his not asking is completely IN CHARACTER. Completely justifiable and reasonable given his history. It would be out of character for us not to ask, but I say again, that it is completely and logically IN character for Harry not to ask. Just a thought. bboy_mn From patientx3 at aol.com Sat May 15 06:40:40 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 06:40:40 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98409 HunterGreen (previously): >>> why did Voldemort not figure this out until the whole snake attacking Arthur incident?<<< Cassie: >>That was explained in the book. [snip] that Arthur incident, which was such an extreme violation of his thoughts/emotions that he couldn't help but notice. After that he deduced he might be able to get into Harry's mind.<< HunterGreen: I understand that he found out Harry was accessing his mind by means of the snake incident. What I was wondering about is if he was able to look at Harry's thoughts the way Harry is able to look at his, then why wasn't he getting glimpses of Harry's mind the way Harry was glimpsing his? Clearly, Voldemort would be bright enough to figure out what he'd be looking at if he had any look into Harry's life / mind (certainly if he had any of Harry's nightmares since they centered on the graveyard). What I got from the book was after the snake thing, Voldemort realized the link was there and decided to use to to *plant* things in Harry's mind, which is different than having a look into Harry's thoughts. Cassie: >>Like I said above, if the connect works exactly the same both ways (which makes me wonder if Harry could plant things in LV's mind 0.0) There is a chance that Voldemort could see through Harry's eyes without his knowledge.<< HunterGreen: But I don't think it necessarily works both ways. If he could wouldn't he use the connect that way as opposed to simply putting thoughts in Harry's head? I guess he could be doing both, but there's been no indication that Voldemort found anything out that Harry knows. IMO, the whole thing would be too weighty a plotline, Voldemort could essentially know *anything* that Harry finds out, in which case I hope Dumbledore would be smart enough to not bring Harry to Grimmauld Place, and let Snape teach him Occulmency. I think we're just both seeing this different ways (which is the point of discussion, I suppose (o;...by the way could you make your own text stand out better against the quoted things [with "" or >><<] I was getting a little confused reading the post). Cassie: >>I think there is a quote where Dumbledore says he thought he saw a shadow of Voldemort stirring behind Harry's eyes. And then there are those parts where Harry describes feeling as though a dormant snake were rising inside of him. Of course, we can't be sure.<< HunterGreen: I think that might just be him coming out of living Voldemort's thoughts. Remember, he is slipping into VD's mind, that can't be pleasant. From hannah at readysolve.com Sat May 15 09:17:23 2004 From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 09:17:23 -0000 Subject: Victor Krum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98410 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > Could Victor Krum be a male Veela and are Veela part bird? > > At the quidditch world cup when the Veela were angry, Harry said > that "their faces were elongating into sharp, cruel-beaked bird > heads, and long, scaly wings were bursting from their shoulders"(GOF > pg. 111). Harry had described Krum as looking " thin, dark, and > sallow-skinned, with a large curved nose and thick black eyebrows. He > looked like an overgrown bird of prey" (GOF pg.105), also when Krum > did the Wronski Feint Harry describes Krum as though he was not using > a broomstick at all; he moved so easily through the air that he > looked unsupported and weightless (GOF pg. 109). Could Krum be a > Veela or is he a half-breed of some kind with bird-like looks and > capabilities? > > The Veela when angry look like a bird and Krum also looks like a bird > and is described as flying like a bird i.e. weightless and > unsupported. Could Krum be a male version of a Veela? Can he actually > fly without a broom? How could this be of use in later books? In the > most recent chat, JKR said that we would see Krum again although not > soon. Any ideas? > > Snow-aka Kathy King I'm afraid I'm going to take this opportunity to theorise on veela reproduction since I did wonder about the fact that there appear to be no male veela. According to myth veela are all female, they breed by seducing human men and the offspring are always female and always veela. This doesn't fit with Fleur being part veela, although JKR's veela do appear to be all female. So, my theory is that any female child born to a veela and a human would be a full veela whereas a male child of a veela and a human would be considered half veela and any child of a half veela, male or female, would be considered a quarter veela. This means full veela are only female, half veela are only male and quarter veela can be either male or female. Just a theory. Khilari. From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Sat May 15 10:14:24 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 10:14:24 -0000 Subject: The Books (Was Re: How dim is Harry?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > I am a little bit curious about the books in the smallest bedroom > on Privet Drive, the ones no one's ever touched. Where did they > come from, do you suppose? The Dursleys don't seem like > book buying types to me. Wonder if any of Lily's old school things > are sitting on the shelves? > > Pippin AmanitaMuscaria now : Whoa! Can you imagine Aunt Petunia not virtually disinfecting Privet Drive if Lily or any of Lily's possessions came near it? I can't imagine she'd let such things anywhere near her ickle Duddykins! The books might be disguised, I suppose, but how would they have got there? I agree that Vernon, Petunia nor Marge appear to have any use for books, unless they were of the 'How to get ahead in business and bully others' sort that V. might be interested in ... or 'Bulldog breeding for profit' from Marge maybe? Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Sat May 15 10:30:14 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 10:30:14 -0000 Subject: Neville on the Quidditch team? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98412 Philosopher's Stone, Through the Trapdoor, p192 UK paperback "... And Neville will play Quidditch for England before Hagrid lets Dumbledore down." Ron comments, just before Harry works out Hagrid was conned into telling the mysterious stranger how to get past Fluffy. Harry and Ron may have their differences on the team in the next books, but my money's on Neville - beater or chaser though? Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 15 10:41:30 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 10:41:30 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - Abuse and Oppression. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > It's true that Harry doesn't ask because JKR doesn't want us to know > yet, but the more important factor, the factor I am trying to point > out to people who say 'I would do this' and 'I would do that', is > that, if you carefully look at Harry's character, you will find that > his not asking is completely IN CHARACTER. Completely justifiable and > reasonable given his history. > > It would be out of character for us not to ask, but I say again, that > it is completely and logically IN character for Harry not to ask. Nope. Can't agree. Not unless you characterise Harry as a brain-washed, repressed, unimaginative dolt. The Dursleys told him that his parents had died in a car crash; why would he question that? Sounds feasible, if tragic. He then finds out, at the same time that an escape hatch from the stifling world of Privet Drive opens, that this was not true. Not only that, but that he is famous, that everybody knows his name and that Hagrid, his rescuer, has a very different story to tell, that he is mentioned in the history books, for goodness sake. If he has any imagination at all then he will have wondered about his parents. The Dursleys may not cooperate, may tell him not to ask questions but that won't stop the thoughts. And suddenly his is transported to a place where the answers can be found. Not to ask, not to look in the books may be a useful plot device but it is not believable. DD may want to keep it from him but it'd be ridiculous to assume that DD has blanked, censored or hexed every book in the WW just to stop Harry from learning the truth too soon. And the number of people who could answer at least *some* of his questions includes a majority of the adults in the books; DD, Lupin, Moody, Arthur, Molly, Snape, McGonagall, and of course Sirius, his surrogate parent. The sargeantmajorette, delving into her eventful past, suggests that Harry won't ask Hermione because she's only a girl, and boys don't listen to girls. Hmm. Maybe, but normally Hermione doesn't wait to be asked. Even so it's obvious when he overhears the Weasleys talking on the platform (in PS/SS) that the whole damn brood know more about him than he knows himself. Has he ever broached the subject with Ron? No. Molly doesn't tell them not to answer questions, only that they shouldn't ask any. But does he ask? No. Not even a question about his family after sitting for hours in front of the Mirror gazing at them. Not a question after Hagrid presents him with a photograph album featuring his parents (and possibly others). To anyone with the brains of a doorstop this is an invitation to ask questions -"Who is this? When was this taken? What's this one about?" He's been given a pictorial commentary on his parents and he doesn't ask? Ridiculous. It's not a question of what you or I would do, it's a question of what anyone with a pulse would do. They'd ask. Kneasy From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 15 11:16:59 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 11:16:59 -0000 Subject: The Books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98414 I feel sure the Dursleys would buy matching sets of books, as a kind of fashion accessory, but would never actually read them. Perhaps Readers' Digest or Dickens in red leather, to match the curtains. Sylvia From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 15 11:17:27 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 11:17:27 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98415 Pippin wrote: > > I am a little bit curious about the books in the smallest bedroom > on Privet Drive, the ones no one's ever touched. Where did they > come from, do you suppose? The Dursleys don't seem like > book buying types to me. Wonder if any of Lily's old school things > are sitting on the shelves? > Potioncat: I seem to remember something about Dudley getting books as gifts from his aunt, which of course, he never read. Although, Marge doesn't seem the type to give books, does she? Potioncat From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat May 15 11:25:44 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 12:25:44 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Names References: <1084316120.6177.18558.m25@yahoogroups.com> <40A5DA6F.19607.2C57E2@localhost> Message-ID: <008301c43a6f$5d48f5e0$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 98416 Shaun wrote > Teacher to a student: Surname - *unless* the student was a specific > charge of yours, or sometimes if they were in some sort of > distress, in which case you might use a first name. >> K I went to a normal state school in the UK (well I say normal - it was an amalgamation of the old girls school and a boys school which had existed for several hundred years so in some ways it wasn't strictly normal) and I would agree with much of what Shaun said. *Except* there were differences between the way male and female students acted and were treated. I don't have the books to hand right now so I'm hoping someone will comment on these observations in regards to how Hogwarts students and teachers act because I can't for the life of me remember if there are differences or not. In my school boys referred to each other (except close friends) by surnames and to the girls by their first names. Girls referred to all the other students by their first names (if you knew them). Teachers (especially those who had made the move from the boys school to the new mixed school) referred to boys by their surname and girls by their first name. While talking amongst themselves students referred to staff by surnames only usually but you wouldn't *dream* of doing it to a teacher (either by referring to him/her by his/her surname or when talking to a teacher about another teacher), it would have been extremely disrespectful and would have been treated as such - even when referring to those teachers who *no-one* (and I include other staff here) would say had *earned* that respect. It was simply a matter of courtesy, no matter how useless and/or unpleasant they were they were in a position of authority and should be treated with respect because of it. I've seen a lot of discussion about it being all right to disrespect Snape because he hasn't *earned* that respect - but people in all kinds of positions of authority get treated in a respectful manner (at least to their faces and to other authority figures) whether they have deserved it or not (e.g. people in authority over you at work, people in governmental or legal positions of authority etc etc) and, for the most part, that isn't because people are scared of what will happen if they are rude but because general courtesy demands that you treat them with respect because of their position even if personally you don't think they deserve it. So why do we consider Snape to be any different? Whether or not he deserves respect is a matter for debate, but whether Harry should treat him with respect surely isn't? K From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Sat May 15 01:11:06 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040515011106.11595.qmail@web13811.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98417 Another Susan (Siriusly Snapey) replies: He disobeyed a direct order from Dumbledore, yes. THAT part surprises me. But I think flawed Snape just couldn't take it any more. I would love to have heard DD's conversation w/ Snape about that insubordination, but alas, JKR didn't make us privy to it. animallover_11: did he really disobey a direct order? We assume that it was Lupin or somebody that told DD about what Harry did. But what if it was Snape himself that told DD what had happened. I am not sure that I remember if it is stated anywhere who told DD and if DD told Snape to keep up with the lessons. I only remember Lupin telling Harry he had to keep up the lessons. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From miranda_mcgonagall37 at yahoo.ca Sat May 15 02:37:33 2004 From: miranda_mcgonagall37 at yahoo.ca (Nicole Lewis) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 22:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flesh-eating slug repellant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040515023733.46522.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98418 (SNIP of other well written posts...sorry) Carol: What strikes me as odd (besides the idea of cabbage as "flesh") is that Hagrid would need to go to Knockturn Alley to buy flesh-eating slug *repellant.* Now if he wanted to buy the slugs themselves, Knockturn Alley would be the very place for such obviously Dark creatures. But you'd think he could buy the repellant in Diagon Alley--defense against Dark creatures as opposed to the dark creatures themselves. Anyway, I don't think Hagrid is a bad guy, but that particular story has always smelled fishy to me. Miranda here: What if this is the moment in COS that Kloves had to keep in... it's in the movie, and I've always thought Coltrane's line delivery emphasized what seems like a lie... just the way he said it... i mean, Hagrid didn't have to be there, Harry could've wandered out of Knockturn Alley on his own, or seen the Weasley's or Hermione who were looking for him or something... any thoughts? Could this mean Hagrid is up to something? Perhaps even... ESE? Miranda (who likes Hagrid somewhat, but found him more and more annyoing as OotP went on) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat May 15 07:57:06 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 07:57:06 -0000 Subject: "Professor" Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98419 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" > wrote: > > > > Army also has a requirement of obedience - but, particularly with > > Harry Potter-world, where there is a thing like Imperius Curse - > > well, taking orders from people just because they were born > earlier, > > or just because a third party put them in place where they SHOULD > be > > teaching you - well, it disables you from resisting Imperius Curse. Wanda: > Could you explain that a bit, please? Are you saying that being > polite hinders a person from being able to resist the Imperius > Curse? > > Finwitch: I'm saying that being *obedient* disables ability to resist imperius. After all, obedience is the very thing the person casting it wants from you, and what that curse is about. And in this view, it doesn't matter what exactly requires your obedience - a rule, a parent, a teacher, a code of behaviour... Obeying *anything* over your own conscience is what makes one unable to resist imperius. Voldemort may consider obedience a virtue(just read the end of GoF, he says so), but I do not, and neither(it's obvious to me) does Harry. Snape aside, I respect the way Harry stood up to DUmbridge where none other had the courage to do so - including Harry's teachers. In light of the OOP, I view Harry Potter as being worthy of more respect than Severus Snape. And - though I know that some would insist on acknowledging something called 'social status/class/rank', a concept somewhat alien to me, the little I do grasp of that system, offends my sense of ethics. Politeness, to me, is to acknowledge others. For example, Harry IS polite whereas Dursleys are not. Finwitch From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat May 15 12:12:24 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 12:12:24 -0000 Subject: Over Kill with Dementors/Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > > Kneasy wrote: > > > > > I use the word "supposedly" deliberately. > > > > > > Consider the sequence of events: > > > Fudge visits Azkaban the *night before* Sirius' escape. > > > > Marianne: > > > > I'm not sure that's true. Fudge gives Sirius the Daily Prophet, but > > I haven't found any indication that Sirius escaped the day after. > > Ah! You've missed it. > PoA chap 4 p.54 (UK ed). It's where Harry is eavesdropping on > Arthur and Molly: > Arthur - 'They didn't report it to the press because Fudge wanted > it kept quiet, but Fudge went out to Azkaban the night Black escaped." > > True, it doesn't look possible that Fudge handed over the Daily Prophet > on that occasion, but I doubt Sirius has a subscription for a daily > delivery. Someone made sure he got hold of a copy of that particular > edition. > > The guards told Fudge (do Dementors talk? Or are there other guards > knocking around the place?) that Black had been talking in his sleep > "..for a while now..." But his escape is the night Fudge turns up. > > What else can a poor conspiracy theorist think - the worst, obviously. > Marianne: Thanks for fishing that tidbit out. Okay, how about this? Fudge does indeed make sure Sirius gets that particular edition of the Daily Prophet. He then goes back to the Ministry, rubbing his little, gloved hands together and waits for Sirius to do his (Fudge's) dirty work. Days...weeks go by and nothing happens. The ungrateful wretch sits there in that cell. So, Fudge goes back to Azkaban to get things moving and helps engineer Sirius' escape on whatever night he actually gets out. Sort of gives him a figurative shove out the door. However, being the dull, boring soul that I am, what it also could mean is that Fudge went to Azkaban the night Sirius escaped simply because he was informed that his most infamous prisoner had indeed flown the coop. Being the Minister on whose watch Azkaban has now been shown to be vulnerable, Fudge goes out there to be on the scene and act like he's actually a capable, involved Minister concerned with the public safety and not merely his own reputation. On the guard question, I always had the sense that there were wizards posted to Azkaban, too. I have absolutely no canon to back this up, but it seems like someone would be in charge of the bureaucratic niceties of running a government installation - checking to see the prisoners were put into their proper cells - high security like Sirius or short-termers like Hagrid, handling provisions, writing up the proper reports when someone died, etc. The Dementors never struck me as particularly capable or interested in that sort of thing. I imagine Azkaban being run day-to-day by a small crew of wizards, Aurors perhaps. Several of them are in charge, assigned there on a rotating basis. And, for their crew, they get other Aurors that need a little negative reinforcement or who have screwed up somehow and are sent to do a stint as Azkaban overseers as a punishment. I don't see Azkaban as a plum assignment for anyone, nor do I imagine that anyone is posted there long-term. What a depressing career that would be! Marianne From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 15 12:17:06 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 12:17:06 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: <20040515011106.11595.qmail@web13811.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98421 > Another Susan (Siriusly Snapey) replies: > He disobeyed a direct order from Dumbledore, yes. THAT part > surprises me. But I think flawed Snape just couldn't take it any > more. I would love to have heard DD's conversation w/ Snape about > that insubordination, but alas, JKR didn't make us privy to it. > > > animallover_11:> > did he really disobey a direct order? We assume that it was Lupin or somebody that told DD about what Harry did. Potioncat: I just read that part. It's in Chapter 37, p 833 "Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons!" Harry snarled. "He threw me out of his office!" "I am aware of it," said DD heavily. Then DD goes on to say some wounds run too deep...So it seems that DD may feel he let Snape down on this one too. It could have been that after throwing Harry out, and calming down, Snape discussed it with DD and they decided to stop the lessons. What I don't understand, is why they wouldn't have told Harry. On the other hand, he might not have told DD until much later. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 15 12:39:23 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 12:39:23 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98422 > Potioncat wrote: > >>What I've never understood is why Snape was teaching Potter. It > seems LV would have easily found out.<< > > HunterGreen: > How exactly? Obviously he's not going to find out from Snape's mind, > because of the aforementioned Occulmency, and I don't see how he > could find out from Harry either. We all know that Harry was getting > glimpses of Voldemort's emotions/thoughts/plans etc., but does it > work both ways? Potioncat again: OoP chapter 37, pp.827--829, 833. I hope no one minds, I'm going to paraphrase. LV realizes that Harry is in his mind during the attack on Arthur. DD is afraid LV will figure out that the connection can go both ways. LV would force himself into Harry's mind to misdirect Harry's thoughts. DD did not want LV to know that he and Harry were close, because LV would then be able to spy on DD. "He might try and possess you." DD did not want to "..open your mind even further to LV while in my presence," (via teaching occlumency.) So, unless I'm missing something, if all that applied to DD, then it applied to Snape as well. So LV could have seen Snape teaching Harry occlumency. The difference being that if LV caught a glimpse of the lessons with Snape, he'd see an angry, resentful Harry. But still, I think it could have compromised Snape's position with LV (assuming he is indeed, still somewhat trusted by LV) I also wonder (apologist that I am) that if Snape knows that LV might be able to see random thoughts in Harry's head, then all thoughts about Snape better be bad ones! Potioncat From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat May 15 12:43:58 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 12:43:58 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98423 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Meri wrote: > > > And as to Harry asking the wrong questions (or the wrong > > > questions to the wrong people), as far as he knows these are the > > > right people: DD, Sirius, Remus, Mr. Weasley, etc. He's not a > > > seer, after all. He's a kid. > > Mel: > > But he never asks ANY questions! I mean...really! Kneasy's right. > > If someone told YOU that you were in a book I BET you'd run out > > and find a copy. Especially if you'd just found out your entire > > life was something knew nothing about. HE DIDN'T! If you were > > escorted to a bank and shown a HEAP OF GOLD COINS and > > told they were YOURS, wouldn't you ASK WHERE THEY CAME FROM? > > Sorry, your mom and dad left them ISN'T good enough for me. > > > > And all this is before he even MEETS Dumbledore. > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > This is so fun to read everyone's thoughts on this. :-) I sense a > fair bit of frustration with our Harry for his failings in this > area. And I include myself in that, btw. "Ask the QUESTION, > Harry!" I've been known to snarl at the book. I've also been known > to offer up the excuse that Harry was told so often from the age of > 15 months to 11 years to "Be quiet!" and "Don't ask questions!" that > it became a way of life for him to just accept and not ask. > > But of course, the REAL ANSWER to all this...and we all know it, it > just frustrates some of us more than others...is that JKR can't > allow Harry to ask those questions yet because she'd give too much > away. > > I *love* Jen's suggestion [#98371] that Harry will "step up to the > plate" from here on in and ask loads of questions, demand all kinds > of answers. Hopefully we're near enough to the end of the series > that JKR will "allow" that now! Marianne: This discussion makes me think of something I read on another list I'm on where the poster was expressing one of her many dissatisfactions with OoP. Her two-pronged point was that 1) she felt JKR wrote her characters to act in a certain way to preserve the secrets of the series until such time as it was appropriate that they be revealed. And, 2) eventually, as a reader, those characters and their actions may start to be unbelievable. I think the Harry discussion fits into this quite nicely. JKR set up Harry's situation in such a way that it is believable he would hesitate to ask questions. JKR then continues with that behavior. To some readers it's still perfectly understandable, if frustrating, that Harry is not more curious. To others, it's long past the time when this lack of curiosity makes any sense. So, does Harry start spouting questions left and right in the next two books? Does he grab Dumbledore or Remus by the throat and demand to know everything possible about his parents? Are the events of OoP enough to shock him out of his previously passive state? Or does he remain essentially the same non-curious Harry, who only becomes informed when events toss information into his lap? Marianne From squeakinby at tds.net Sat May 15 14:01:46 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 09:01:46 -0500 Subject: Very random thoughts on Gringott's Bank Message-ID: <40A622CA.3060709@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98424 Since Harry's inheritance just came up, I've long wondered how this bank works. First tho I wondered how the Potters amassed so much gold. What did they do for a living? On to the bank. This gold is simply in a vault, hence it's not getting any interest. Shouldn't it have been invested? With all the money handling going on there, surely the Goblins conduct business in much the same was as the RW, investing and such. Is Arthur Weasley's pay automatically deposited in their vault? Jem From entropymail at yahoo.com Sat May 15 13:19:32 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 13:19:32 -0000 Subject: Alchemy Throughout Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98425 I've been looking through some Alchemy references, and am finding some amazing correlations between the study of Alchemy and the HP series, other than just Nicholas Flamel and his Stone. I'll sum up a few of the things I've noticed (tried to keep it brief!), as I think that Alchemy can be used to better understand the books (JKR clearly has an understanding of it), as well as predict what is to come in future books: 1. Alchemy is divided into two disciplines: "Outward Alchemy", in which materials are transformed from their impure state to their most pure state. Simultaneously, the Alchemist also practices "Inward Alchemy", which deals with the task of spiritual growth and enlightenment. In both branches of Alchemy, colors are used to represent the various phases of change: Black: Also known as the nigredo stage. Being the first stage of alchemy, where the substance is at it's most impure state. The metal used to begin this process is Lead, which (coincidentally) is represented by a symbol not unlike a lightening bolt. In terms of spiritual development, the person in question is at his "darkest" moment. Feeling abandoned, alone, betrayed. Sounds like Harry throughout the series, but particularly throughout OOP. White: Also known as the albedo. This represents a purifying stage. This stage is often represented by the moon (Luna) and the Lily. Red: Also known as the rubedo stage. This is the stage of change, in which transformation to a recongealed, or re-united, stage occurs. This stage is commonly represented by the Red Lion. Please notice that each of these phases directly relates to a character's name: Black, of course, is Sirius Black. White relates to Albus (for white). And Red, can be found in Hagrid's first name, Rubeus. Could it be that each of these characters will be the one to facilitate each of Harry's transformations toward spiritual enlightenment? 2. In order to transform matter, it must first be transformed into what is described as Prime matter (which represents the "possibility" of all things). This can only happen through the union of opposites, which causes a release into Prime matter. These opposites are: Sulphur, related to Fire and the Mind (think Ron's red hair and chess expertise) and Mercury, which relates to Water and the Soul (the Greek form of Mercury is the god Hermes, the male version of Hermione). They also represent the masculine and feminine polarities of life. A coupling of Ron and Hermione (get out your flags, all of you H/R shippers!), or possibly a combining of forces between the two, may also facilitate Harry's transformation. 3. Each of Harry's tasks of the Triwizard Tournament relates to various stages of alchemical work (fire, water, and labyrinth). Anyway, I think that this whole thing is really interesting, and bears further probing. And hope you guys can decipher some of this into some meaningful explanations of what's about to occur. Good luck! :: Entropy :: From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 15 13:43:31 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 13:43:31 -0000 Subject: Why we SHIP (WAS: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98426 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > In an interview, JKR said: > > <<"The final chapter for Book Seven is written. I wrote that just > for my own satisfaction, really as an act of faith. (To say) I will > get here in the end. In that chapter you do, I hope, feel a sense of > resolution. You do find out what happens to the survivors. I know > that sounds very ominous (laughs).">> > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000- > oregonian-baker.htm?/books/00/10/al_11browl22.frame > I've never seen this quote before and it warms the cockles of my evil, dark, FEATHERBOA-bedecked heart. The key word is - "survivors" - and the implications inherent in the use of that particular word. Plus the exceedingly pleasing admission by JKR that she realises this sounds ominous, but does not add anything that might negate this impression. Oh, happy day! Multiple deaths to come and the likelihood that there will be significant characters among the fatalities. Oh, splendid! Time to make a list: DD for certain- he's not described as increasingly old and tired for nothing. It's a foreshadowing. Harry probably (the increasing possibility that Harry and Voldy are connected at some fundamental level posits that the fall of one will have a drastic effect on the other could be indicative, in addition to other hazards to his health). Snape (no place for such as he in a brave new world). Weasleys - at least 3; why else are there so many of them in the first place? A 30% casualty rate sounds reasonable. But which ones? Hmm. Bill and the twins maybe? Bella, of course. Fudge? Serve him right. So thumbs down for Fudge. Draco? Why not. Slimy little tosser. His dad's a survivor though. Peter - in a futile attempt to repay his life debt; incompetent as ever. Luna - it's her own fault, she shouldn't be so irritating. Any other worthy candidates? Kneasy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 15 13:43:10 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 13:43:10 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - Abuse and Oppression. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98427 bboy wrote: > > the factor I am trying to point out to people who say 'I would > > do this' and 'I would do that', is that, if you carefully look > > at Harry's character, you will find that his not asking is > > completely IN CHARACTER. Completely justifiable and reasonable > > given his history. > > > > It would be out of character for us not to ask, but I say again, > > that it is completely and logically IN character for Harry not > > to ask. Kneasy: > Nope. Can't agree. > Not unless you characterise Harry as a brain-washed, repressed, > unimaginative dolt. > Not to ask, not to look in the books may be a > useful plot device but it is not believable. > It's not a question of what you or I would do, it's a question > of what anyone with a pulse would do. They'd ask. Siriusly Snapey Susan now: What IS left, then, Kneasy, besides "a useful plot device"?? If it's not believable that Harry wouldn't ask, because anyone with a pulse would ask--even someone whose nature seems to be reticent when it comes to asking question--then what are we to do? Think Harry is a dolt? I don't think so. It *is* a plot device, imho. JKR shows us enough times where Harry is told not to ask, where he finally screws up the courage to ask DD and is rebuffed, where people like Molly step in & say, "That's enough," ... that we are simply to accept that Harry's just learned it's best to keep quiet. That gives her the "space" to take her time answering the questions. I mean, you're right, really. What human being with a pulse wouldn't ask *somebody,* *sometime,* *somehow* to answer some of this?! So either Harry's a total nitwit or JKR is employing a plot device. I opt for the latter. BECAUSE this is a mystery series, she CAN'T allow him to ask too many questions. Or, if she did make him more "believable" and allow it, she'd have to have people either lie, mislead or misdirect him...and then she'd have even more explaining to do to her audience in the end. I think she *had* to write Harry this way if she's going to hide the mystery for 7 books. Just one woman's opinion. Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 15 13:46:45 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 13:46:45 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: <20040515011106.11595.qmail@web13811.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98428 Susan (Siriusly Snapey) replies: > He disobeyed a direct order from Dumbledore, yes. THAT part > surprises me. But I think flawed Snape just couldn't take it any > more. I would love to have heard DD's conversation w/ Snape about > that insubordination, but alas, JKR didn't make us privy to it. animallover_11: > did he really disobey a direct order? We assume that it was Lupin or somebody that told DD about what Harry did. But what if it was Snape himself that told DD what had happened. I am not sure that I remember if it is stated anywhere who told DD and if DD told Snape to keep up with the lessons. I only remember Lupin telling Harry he had to keep up the lessons. > SSSusan: Sorry--I wasn't clear on this. Potioncat has already addressed what you were asking about, I think. I was thinking merely of DD's instruction *in the first place* to give Harry Occlumency lessons. I assumed THAT was an order. I wasn't thinking of an order to *continue* them after he kicked Harry out, just that it was Snape's obligation to give them, period. Does that make sense? Siriusly Snapey Susan From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat May 15 14:48:20 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 14:48:20 -0000 Subject: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship In-Reply-To: <017901c43a26$75f86d80$e98b1a40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98429 Ginger, popping into the Harry/Pansy ship discussion: Hang on to your hats, folks. I was just hanging out at the Lexicon and found under Pansy a note that the pansy was called, in A Midsummersnight's Dream, by its other name "love-in-idleness". Maybe there's something to this... Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmm. Ginger, who not only reads Kneasy's posts, but glows with anticipation and glee at the sight of his name at the header. From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Sat May 15 15:52:15 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 08:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How dim is Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040515155215.39226.qmail@web42104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98430 Mel: > > But he never asks ANY questions! I mean...really! Kneasy's right. If someone told YOU that you were in a book I BET you'd run out and find a copy. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: I sense a fair bit of frustration with our Harry for his failings in this area. And I include myself in that, btw. "Ask the QUESTION, Harry!" I've been known to snarl at the book. Marianne: This discussion makes me think of something I read on another list I'm on where the poster was expressing one of her many dissatisfactions with OoP. Her two-pronged point was that 1) she felt JKR wrote her characters to act in a certain way to preserve the secrets of the series until such time as it was appropriate that they be revealed. And, 2) eventually, as a reader, those characters and their actions may start to be unbelievable. akh: At the risk of veering OT, I have a family story that helps make Harry's apparently unnatural lack of curiosity ring authentic for me. My mother was always told her name was taken from a novel her mother was reading while pregnant. I asked Mom what novel that was, and she had NO IDEA. She wasn't even curious about the title! And I believe my grandmother was still alive when I asked the question. Now, if my mother had chosen to name me after the herione of a novel, I would most certainly want to know the title of the novel and read it, probably several times! Rowling has chosen to create a character who is like my mother (not deliberately, of course). If it's not directly affecting Harry's life, he accepts the explanation he's received and leaves it at that. It may be frustrating, but it's not unbelievable. akh, whose mother was NOT a dim bulb, by the way... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Sat May 15 16:57:09 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 16:57:09 -0000 Subject: Survivors (was: Why we SHIP (WAS: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98431 Kneasy says: > I've never seen this quote before and it warms the cockles of my evil, > dark, FEATHERBOA-bedecked heart. > > The key word is - "survivors" - and the implications inherent in the use > of that particular word. Plus the exceedingly pleasing admission by JKR > that she realises this sounds ominous, but does not add anything that > might negate this impression. > > Oh, happy day! Multiple deaths to come and the likelihood that there > will be significant characters among the fatalities. Oh, splendid! > > Time to make a list: > > DD for certain- he's not described as increasingly old and tired > for nothing. It's a foreshadowing. > > Harry probably (the increasing possibility that Harry and Voldy are > connected at some fundamental level posits that the fall of one will > have a drastic effect on the other could be indicative, in addition to > other hazards to his health). > > Snape (no place for such as he in a brave new world). > > Weasleys - at least 3; why else are there so many of them in the > first place? A 30% casualty rate sounds reasonable. But which ones? > Hmm. Bill and the twins maybe? > > Bella, of course. > > Fudge? Serve him right. So thumbs down for Fudge. > > Draco? Why not. Slimy little tosser. His dad's a survivor though. > > Peter - in a futile attempt to repay his life debt; incompetent as ever. > > Luna - it's her own fault, she shouldn't be so irritating. > > Any other worthy candidates? > > Kneasy I'm not sure that JKR wasn't playing with us in that quote. I mean, the series doesn't HAVE to end like a Jacobean tragedy, littered with bloody corpses. Then again.... I take issue with a couple of your choices. I don't think Harry will necessarily snuff it. I think that's a less interesting ending to the series than watching him actually contemplate life-after-Voldy. I hope there isn't a mass Weasley-cide. But if there is, I'm voting for Percy--in some sort of heroic, redemptive gesture. Bill and Charlie are posibilities--they're in the line of fire. But I honestly think the twins have been set up to usher in the joke-filled post VWII brave new world.... (It would be terrible if Ginny were the one to snuff it--she's the one who's already suffered most at Voldy's hands.) Ron seems like the most likely of the Trio to buy the farm, though that would be very sad. I think the Arthur and Molly--one or both--are the most likely casualties. Thematically, mythically, the death of the parents opens the opportunity for the children to assume their proper place. I agree that Peter will buy it. But I rather think that his repayment of his life-debt will be a keystone in Voldy's defeat. As for Luna... Well, I don't find her annoying, just odd. You KNOW she's going to end up with Harry back in the Death Room at some point. Whether to walk through the veil or to talk to her mom remains to be seen. As for others? Well, Remus seems highly likely to go down in a fanged-and-furry blaze of glory in the next book or two. We don't know enough about Tonks to know what her role will be, but you know it's going to be central. How about Aunt Petunia? Again, in an act of some kind of redemption, she might save Harry at some point. (That might be why the book six stay at Privet Drive is cut short, now that I think about it: if she dies, the Dursley's house would offer no further protection. And Uncle Vernon would be even less willing to have Harry around.) I don't think Neville's going to be killed, but it's possible. And you know that he's intimately wound up in the fulfillment of the prophecy somehow--else why the inclusion of his name in the first place? I feel a bit guilty saying this, but I'd be happy to see Cho go. Like Percy, it would be an opportunity to play the hero for once and actually do the right thing. Hagrid seems a likely victim, too--leading Grownup!Norbert, Grawp and a few other giants, perhaps, against the forces of evil... I will say, again, however, that I don't expect a bloodbath. Killing dozens of characters *lessens* the impact--readers become desensitized. Also turned off. So while I expect JKR to through more Sirius-like shocks our way, I don't expect books six and seven to be novelized versions of Sam Peckinpah movies. From dk59us at yahoo.com Sat May 15 17:07:27 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 17:07:27 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - his official History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98432 Kneasy wrote: > The Dursleys told him that his parents had died in a car crash; > why would he question that? Sounds feasible, if tragic. He then > finds out, at the same time that an escape hatch from the > stifling world of Privet Drive opens, that this was not true. Not > only that, but that he is famous, that everybody knows his > name and that Hagrid, his rescuer, has a very different story > to tell, that he is mentioned in the history books, for goodness > sake. > Now Eustace_Scrubb: Well, I'm afraid I agree with just about everyone (there must be something wrong). I do think Harry learned that survival with the Dursleys included keeping his head down and _not_ asking questions, as Steve suggested. I do think JKR limits Harry's questions to keep us in suspense (maybe too often), as vmonte added. But I also agree with Kneasy that, within the story, it strains credibility to think that Harry wouldn't at least look himself up in the books Hermione mentioned. However, let's go one more step...what would he have learned exactly? Historians, alas, don't always tell the truth; they don't always do good research; their work may be co-opted to reflect official opinions and negate those not accepted by the hierarchy. Sometimes historians fill in the gaps of evidence with imaginative inferences--sometimes they get them right, sometimes wrong. They rarely get the whole picture. (I'm a historian myself, so I'm not saying this without some careful thought and knowledge of the field). So from what we know of the WW, how likely is it that the works of history Hermione cites give a full, truthful, factual account of the first war with Voldemort and its end? If it really did that, we'd hardly need 7 books over 10(?) years to tell Harry's story. We know that History of Magic as taught to Hogwarts students consists almost entirely of dry chronologies with perhaps a few hagiographies of great wizards and witches thrown in. (I guess JKR couldn't have had many decent history profs in school.) We also know that the Ministry is able to influence news coverage greatly, and the Godric's Hollow affair is nearly contemporary from a historical point of view, one of the hardest kinds of history to get right--there's no historical distance, everyone has too much emotional investment in the subject. So while I would have expected Harry to at least sneak a look in the library, I am not optimistic that he would have gained any great insight into his own history from the official versions. I doubt that even Ms. Know-it-all was good at critically reading a work of history at age 11, so it would have been easy for both Hermione and Harry t come away with wildly incorrect notions of what happened that night. That's _my_ story and I'm sticking to it...until convincing evidence to the contrary comes up, that is. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 15 15:37:51 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 15:37:51 -0000 Subject: Why we SHIP (WAS: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98433 > Kneasy wrote: > I've never seen this quote before and it warms the cockles of my evil, > dark, FEATHERBOA-bedecked heart. > > The key word is - "survivors" - and the implications inherent in the use > of that particular word. Plus the exceedingly pleasing admission by JKR > that she realises this sounds ominous, but does not add anything that > might negate this impression. > > Oh, happy day! Multiple deaths to come and the likelihood that there > will be significant characters among the fatalities. Oh, splendid! > > Time to make a list: > > DD for certain- he's not described as increasingly old and tired > for nothing. It's a foreshadowing. > > Harry probably (the increasing possibility that Harry and Voldy are > connected at some fundamental level posits that the fall of one will > have a drastic effect on the other could be indicative, in addition to > other hazards to his health). > > Snape (no place for such as he in a brave new world). > > Weasleys - at least 3; why else are there so many of them in the > first place? A 30% casualty rate sounds reasonable. But which ones? > Hmm. Bill and the twins maybe? > > Bella, of course. > > Fudge? Serve him right. So thumbs down for Fudge. > > Draco? Why not. Slimy little tosser. His dad's a survivor though. > > Peter - in a futile attempt to repay his life debt; incompetent as ever. > > Luna - it's her own fault, she shouldn't be so irritating. > > Any other worthy candidates? > Kneasy: first of all, you're cracked to think that no one reads your posts, because yours are most entertaining. I love how gleeful and delighted you sound and can almost hear your maniacal laugh as you think about which significant characters will die a horrible, painful death :-). Anyways, re: the Weasleys. I was wondering why so many of the posters here are so sure that Ron, Molly (which really shocked and upset me 'cuz I just love her) Arthur, etc., etc., were going to die, and came up with the same conclusion as you...Why else are there so many of them?! Of course some of them must die! Fodder for the DEs! Ok, so Hermione's got to survive, just because I didn't even know how to pronounce her name until someone told me. No really, she's muggle- born, so she has to live to prove that she's just as good of a wizard as any pureblood. The Weasleys: you're right, of course, that some of them will have to die. Why else go into detail about Molly's worry (the boggart) and tell us all about the clock? I hope Ron's not one of the ones who dies, but he probably will be. The twins are certain candidates because they're ornery and seek excitement. They'll land in the thick of it. Percy, I'm afraid, won't get killed because he's too cautious and obedient. Someone will probably tell him (right before the big battle) that his report on cauldron bottoms needs to be revised, and he'll miss the entire thing because he's rewriting his report. I think Molly will live, but I'm really worried for Arthur. He's a good guy and one of my favorite characters, and he'll go to his death defending his friends and his children. Bill and Charlie: They've got to figure into this somewhere, but for all you shippers out there, I think Ginny's gonna meet her maker. She's the only Weasley girl. Gotta die. IF Harry survives, he'll spend the rest of his life as a tortured soul knowing his one true love died saving him. [:-)] Snape: Hmmm. I'd like to see him live, if only so he'll spend the rest of his life as a tortured soul as well. I mean, if he's crazy/angry enough to become a DE, then *recants*, well, he's certainly going to remember all the horrible things he did as a DE, and if he's truly sorry, he's probably going to be ridden with guilt forever, especially if the Boy Who Lived dies. He'll probably feel responsible in some way. DD: yeah, agree. Maybe even MM as well, just 'cuz she's cool. Fudge most certainly will die just because he's an a$$. Moody and Moony: really hoping these guys live. Moody's got to because he's tougher than spellotape, and Remus because he's already a tortured soul. He'll be feeling the weight of the subsequent deaths forever as well. Firenze will live, but he will play a significant role both during and after the battle. I agree that Lucius will probably live, but Draco? Hmmm. That's tough. I can't decide about him. Neville however, should live just because he's so endearing, and actually, because he'll finally find out how much magical power he really possesses. I can see him being a teacher at Hogwarts; a nice teacher, perhaps of potions, who takes the time to explain WHY and HOW. Peter's gotta die because he's the reason so many people have had such horrible lives. I just hope his death is very slow and very very public. Susan (who's apologizing immediately for taking such delight in the deaths of so many characters ;-) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 15 18:11:42 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 18:11:42 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98434 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Oh,my... I can't believe myself. I am going to ... defend Snape. :o) > (well, kind of). > > I would call him a pathetic, sad human being, who from the victim of > chidhood bullying transformed into bully himself and who in addition > is allowed to abuse his authority as a teacher on a day to day basis. > I would say that emotionally he is still in his teens, etc., etc., > > But I DON'T think that I really believe in ESE!Snape, even though OoP > kinda made me doubt that. Again, this is metathinking, but I think > that JRK spent too much time and effort on this character to allow > him to turned out ESE in the end. Her bad guys are usually not very > well developed. > > I also would like to say that I think we will be lead to believe that > Snape will betray the Order, but that will turn out to be false in > the end. You may find this hard to believe, but I don't think that ESE!Snape is probable either, however much I relish the antics of the snide, miserable, nasty old bastard. Snape is a category apart IMO. It all goes back to my ideas, as yet unsubstantiated, of how he came to be what he is. We can agree that Snape shows a measure of respect for DD, perhaps also for McGonagall - and doesn't give a damn about anybody else. Not only doesn't he give a damn about them, he doesn't care what they think about him, either. Oh, he insists that Harry call him "sir' or "Professor" but that's mainly to firmly squelch any delusions that Harry may have about being a trained, competent wizard. Snape knows better. But do you really think it bothers him that Harry hates his guts? Nope. Does it bother him that the others in the Order don't trust him? Nope. Just as DD may regard young Potter as Weapon!Harry, as a means to an end, so Snape regards DD, the Order and anyone else he may chance to meet in similar fashion. He has a bone to pick with Voldy (not with the DEs, in other circumstances they would be his boon companions), it's Voldy pure and simple. The Order is also anti-Voldy, very convenient, they could be useful; and the enemy of my enemy becomes my friend - for a while. Betrayal? He'd betray anyone in a heartbeat if it served his purpose of having a crack at Voldy, but he wouldn't see it as betrayal, just as an opportunity not to be missed. He's in the Order but not truly *of* it, if you get my point; he doesn't share their principles, their morality or their concern at what Voldy and his merry little crew may do if not checked. Snape probably did the same thing when he was a DE, it's a bit late to deny his own character now. He's only got one loyalty and that's to the idea of bringing Voldy down, preferrably by Snape's own hand, though he realises that may be beyond his capabilities. Teaming up with DD may just do it. All other 'loyalties' are temporary and limited by expediency. DD knows and understands this, I think. That's why he trusts Snape so completely. There is nothing that Voldy could offer Snape that would tempt him back into the DE fold, except Voldy's own destruction. So DD sees him as safe. Snape probably sits alone in his dungeon room, muttering and sticking pins in his Voldy Action Doll (It walks! It talks! It shoots out green rays! Amaze your friends!) dreaming dreams. Sorry, Sevvy old lad, you ain't gonna make it. Not to the end of book 7 you're not. Shame really. Kneasy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 15 18:16:35 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 18:16:35 -0000 Subject: Survivors (was: Why we SHIP (WAS: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98435 Kneasy says: I've never seen this quote before and it warms the cockles of my evil, dark, FEATHERBOA-bedecked heart. Oh, happy day! Multiple deaths to come and the likelihood that there will be significant characters among the fatalities. Oh, splendid! Time to make a list: DD for certain- he's not described as increasingly old and tired for nothing. It's a foreshadowing. SSSusan says: Yup, I think this one's a given. I'll bet if we polled the group, we'd be at least 90% on this one. Kneasy: Weasleys - at least 3; why else are there so many of them in the first place? A 30% casualty rate sounds reasonable. But which ones? Hmm. Bill and the twins maybe? antoshachekhonte added: I think the Arthur and Molly--one or both--are the most likely casualties. Thematically, mythically, the death of the parents opens the opportunity for the children to assume their proper place. SSSusan replies: I think you're right, antoshachekhonte. I don't like the thought of either Weasley parent dying, but I think it's likely, and your reasoning makes sense to me. In all honesty, as much as I [don't throw tomatoes, please] adore Molly and appreciate Arthur, I'd rather see one of them bite it than have one of the twins or Ron or Ginny die. Kneasy: Draco? Why not. Slimy little tosser. His dad's a survivor though. SSSusan: I'd rather see Lucius die than Draco. I'm convinced that Lucius is in this ALL for himself, was in fact working to take the WW over himself `til Voldy returned, and that if somehow Voldy is gone at the end but Lucius is still with us, well, the WW will be in bad shape. I vote for Lucius dying and Draco not. Kneasy: Luna - it's her own fault, she shouldn't be so irritating. SSSusan: Woo hoo!! I'm not the only one who finds her irritating. Kneasy thinks Harry will probably die. Antoshachekhonte suggested: I don't think Harry will necessarily snuff it. I think that's a less interesting ending to the series than watching him actually contemplate life-after-Voldy. SSSusan: I don't think he will, either. I'm still buying into the theory that Harry sacrifices his magical powers, possibly knowingly, but that he doesn't die. Ask me again next week, though. Kneasy: Peter - in a futile attempt to repay his life debt; incompetent as ever. Antoshachekhonte: I agree that Peter will buy it. But I rather think that his repayment of his life-debt will be a keystone in Voldy's defeat. SSSusan: I'm inclined to agree with both of you that Peter will die but with Anto that it will be an important death somehow in Harry's ability to get to Voldy. Kneasy: Any other worthy candidates? Antoshachekhonte: I don't think Neville's going to be killed, but it's possible. And you know that he's intimately wound up in the fulfillment of the prophecy somehow--else why the inclusion of his name in the first place? SSSusan: This is an interesting one to contemplate. I could see Neville dying for the cause for sure but that would obviously mean Neville wouldn't end up as Herbology professor at Hogwarts, as so many think he will be, working on a cure for his Mum & Dad. As for Lupin, I do NOT think he'll die. To have all four Marauders die by the end? Would JKR do that to us?? What about Minerva? Nobody's brought her up yet. Will she be the new Headmistress? Siriusly Snapey Susan From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat May 15 18:25:01 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 18:25:01 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? In-Reply-To: <20040515155215.39226.qmail@web42104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98436 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, AnitaKH wrote: > akh: At the risk of veering OT, I have a family story that helps make Harry's apparently unnatural lack of curiosity ring authentic for me. My mother was always told her name was taken from a novel her mother was reading while pregnant. I asked Mom what novel that was, and she had NO IDEA. She wasn't even curious about the title! And I believe my grandmother was still alive when I asked the question. Now, if my mother had chosen to name me after the herione of a novel, I would most certainly want to know the title of the novel and read it, probably several times! Mel, following OT and promising to leave it here adds: Now here we have the crux of the problem. MY mother was ALSO named after a character in a novel which her mother was reading during her 'confinement'. She, however, DOES know the name of the Novel: 'Stella Dallas'. Her name is Laurel, BTW. So I suppose I can't help it. Inquiring minds run in my family. >Anita: > Rowling has chosen to create a character who is like my mother (not deliberately, of course). If it's not directly affecting Harry's life, he accepts the explanation he's received and leaves it at that. It may be frustrating, but it's not unbelievable. Mel again: Well I disagree in that I believe it IS effecting his life, not HUGELY, but there are areas in which knowing more of his heritage would help ease things along for him for sure. I agree with the point of the person who said the reason Harry is unquestioning is less because he's, well, unquestioning himself, then that JKR can't afford for US to know. I ALSO agree with the idea that it has gone on way too long and is becoming unbelievable. The "beaten down! Harry" is gone. It worked when he was 11. It worked, but less so, when he was 12. But he's 16 now and has shown us he can face-down the Dursleys and ask questions. He MUST start showing some interest now. Mel From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat May 15 18:26:59 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 18:26:59 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98437 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: Males don't listen to females at any age, unless we're > talking mother. Speaking as a mother of a teenage boy, I gots news for you! Mel From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 15 18:33:58 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 18:33:58 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - Abuse and Oppression. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Siriusly Snapey Susan now: > What IS left, then, Kneasy, besides "a useful plot device"?? If > it's not believable that Harry wouldn't ask, because anyone with a > pulse would ask--even someone whose nature seems to be reticent when > it comes to asking question--then what are we to do? Think Harry is > a dolt? I don't think so. > > It *is* a plot device, imho.....That gives her the "space" to take her > time answering the questions. > > I mean, you're right, really. What human being with a pulse > wouldn't ask *somebody,* *sometime,* *somehow* to answer some of > this?! So either Harry's a total nitwit or JKR is employing a plot > device. I opt for the latter. BECAUSE this is a mystery series, > she CAN'T allow him to ask too many questions. Or, if she did make > him more "believable" and allow it, she'd have to have people either > lie, mislead or misdirect him...and then she'd have even more > explaining to do to her audience in the end. > > I think she *had* to write Harry this way if she's going to hide the > mystery for 7 books. Oh, it's a plot device all right, there can't be much doubt in anyone's mind about that. The problem is that while it may be feasible to get away with it for one or two books, stretch it to 5 (or even 6) and it starts to grate. It sticks out like a sore thumb, it's so damn obvious. The reader starts to notice it; not just notice, but *anticipate* it. And it detracts badly from the story. The first part of OoP, Harry was throwing a wobbler "Nobody tells me anything!" was his constant whine. To which, all over the world, came the reply "That's because you never ask the right bloody questions!" Sure, we are all looking forward to a thrilling denoument, but there's a risk that the means may defeat the ends. An unbelievable Harry is not an asset to the story IMO. Kneasy From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat May 15 18:48:17 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 18:48:17 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: He's in the Order but not truly > *of* it, if you get my point; he doesn't share their principles, their > morality or their concern at what Voldy and his merry little crew > may do if not checked. Snape probably did the same thing when he > was a DE, it's a bit late to deny his own character now. and etc.... Mel: My thoughts EXACTLY. Snape in a nutshell. Sorry, > Sevvy old lad, you ain't gonna make it. Not to the end of book 7 > you're not. Shame really. Mel: He's got to make it to the end or I won't. Maybe not the very, *very* end, you know the big, group hug on the last page, I can miss that and miss nothing, but he's got to last long enough before he leaves to answer ONE question: "What did he do to you?" You know, Kneasy, the intellectual part of me says you're right. Snape's doomed to die, probably pointlessly. Likely thinking "whatever it takes" in pursuit of his one goal--the defeat of VD. BUT--there's that one part waaaay back in the back row here that keeps saying it's too obvious. If anyone survives it's gotta be Snape because he's been a marked man from the start. Then there's the infamous line from VD himself, "he will be killed, of course." There's a small still voice inside insisting that JKR just might have saved the guy when she wrote that line. I know, it's silly, but a girl can dream, can't she? From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat May 15 18:57:34 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 18:57:34 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - his official History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: We also know that the Ministry is > able to influence news coverage greatly, and the Godric's Hollow > affair is nearly contemporary from a historical point of view, one of > the hardest kinds of history to get right--there's no historical > distance, everyone has too much emotional investment in the subject. > > So while I would have expected Harry to at least sneak a look in the > library, I am not optimistic that he would have gained any great > insight into his own history from the official versions. Hang on, though - what about other news sources? Didn't Uncle Vernon know a Muggle's version of Sirius Black's exploits? And at the beginning of OotP, Harry is eavesdropping on the TV news, hoping to hear anything about Voldemort. Why wouldn't he have gone looking through back issues of the newspapers, to see how news of the WW had trickled down into the Muggle world? I won't even mention "web search", because I don't think it's fair to expect JKR to keep her fictional world entirely up-to-date. But Harry doesn't seem to have even the minimal curiosity of a kid who looks up his family name in out-of-town phonebooks, just to see if anyone who might be related is there. I tend to agree with those who see it as a plot device, and maybe one that JKR couldn't foresee wouldn't wear all that well through to the end of her series. Wanda From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 15 19:19:42 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 19:19:42 -0000 Subject: Very random thoughts on Gringott's Bank In-Reply-To: <40A622CA.3060709@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98441 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: > Since Harry's inheritance just came up, I've long wondered how this > bank works. > > First tho I wondered how the Potters amassed so much gold. What did > they do for a living? > > On to the bank. This gold is simply in a vault, hence it's not > getting any interest. Shouldn't it have been invested? With all the > money handling going on there, surely the Goblins conduct business > in much the same was as the RW, investing and such. > > Is Arthur Weasley's pay automatically deposited in their vault? > > Jem bboy_mn: Of course, the answer is, we don't know, but that's never stopped us before; so we speculate. Here is a link to a relatively recent thread that starts out talking about Sirius, his bank vault, and how he managed to by Harry's Firebolt broomstick. In the course of the discussion, it breaks off on several tangents; one of which is ... From: "Steve"/ bboy_mn Date: Mon Apr 19, 2004 Subject: Re: Sirius and Gringotts - Banking Q & A; mostly Q http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/96410 This won't necessarily answer all your questions, but some interesting points are touched on. Mostly, in this post, I've done exactly what you've done; ask a lot of question, and speculated on a few answers. The thread starts with this post... Date: Mon Apr 12, 2004 Subject: Sirius and Gringotts http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/95704 Potter's Gold- First and foremost, James inherited most of his money, so he didn't really need a high paying job. As long as he had work here and there, now and then to offset his expenses, he was good to go. Some speculate that since the inventor of the Golden Snitch was from Godric's Hollow, and that the Potters were living at Godric's Hollow when they dies, that they were the heirs to the 'Golden Snitch' fortune. The problem with that is we don't know for a fact the Gordic's Hollow is the Potters ancestral home. I may have simply been a house they rented or borrowed while hiding from Voldemort. So the 'Godric's Hollow' connection is very strained. Gold in the Vault- I have many speculations on Gringotts, all of which I like to call 'logical expansions of the wizard world'. Which means, I made it all up, but I tried to make up things that are logical and likely. I think money can be transferred from account to account. Meaning that Arthur could get direct deposit of his pay, if he chose to. It also means that Sirius can mail order Harry's Firebolt broom without having to lug around a bag of gold. The order form was an authorization for Quality Quidditch Supplies to transfer the gold from Sirius's vault to their own vault. Since the purchase of Harry's broom by Sirius implies the possibility of a written authorization to withdraw funds, that opens the door for Checks and Bank Drafts. We haven't seen them, but it seems the logical extension of what we have seen. I also believe, when you are in a hurry, you don't have to go to your vault to get money. You simply sign a withdrawal slip, the Goblins give you money from 'cash on hand' then later remove that money from you personal account. Magical Bankers- Notice how easily Molly is able to remove money from Harry's account. I believe that the Goblins have some type of in-grained magical truth detection. So when Quality Quidditch Supplies presents Sirius's authorization to withdrawn the money for Harry's broom, they instinctively know it is a valid authorization. Equally so when Molly takes money from Harry's account. The Goblins have some instinctive means to determine that Molly is making a legitimate authorised request for Harry's money. Investment Bankers- I think the Goblins are heavily into investing. They exist for the sole purpose of making money and they are open to doing so by any means necessary. For example, the most common bank investment is loaning money. We have already seen examples, such as the Goblins loaning Ludo Bagman money to finance his gambling. Reasonably, they would make personal and business loans. But, on your life, you do not want to default on a loan from the Goblins. I suspect the rules are very strict and the penalties equally harsh and unforgiving. Another question, all those tombs upon which the Bank is curse breaking, are they robbing those tombs or are they working in cooperation with local wizarding governments for a share of the 'booty'? Cusse breaking and treasure hunting has to be an immensely profitable business. When Harry first enters Gringotts, he sees some Goblins weigh out Rubies the size of coal (tennis ball to softball size in my eyes). In additions to personal and business loans, I suspect that rather than loan money to up and coming businesses, the Goblins invest in the company by buying a share in the company. If the company is successful the Goblins get an ever growing return on their investment, and instead of getting their money back with interest, they get a return in the form of profit sharing for as long as the company is in business. I suspect that the Goblins can be a little ruthless in their lending practices. I speculated in a Fan Fiction, that the Goblins, in the distant future, loaned Fred and George money for their business. Unfortunately, F&G didn't read the loan agreement carefully, and didn't notice a clause that allowed the Goblins to refuse to take cash payment. But instead, claim an equal value share of the collateral, which in this case was the business itself. Much to their immense dislike, F&G became business partners with the Goblins. Wise, but not totally ethical, move on the part of the Goblins. As Weasley enterprises grew, the value of the Goblin's investment grew. That combined with profit sharing, and over time, the Goblins got a return many many many times the size of their orginal investment. That's exactly the kind of sneaky business practice I can see the Goblins engaged in. Goblin's and the Muggle World- I suspect Wizard Law reigns in the Golbins a bit, and prevents them from mucking up business in the muggle world. But I don't think it keeps them out of the muggle world entirely. I suspect that the Goblins have several 'front' businesses in the muggle world run by muggle borns or muggles who have married witches or wizards. They use the 'front' business to 'launder' muggle money, and engage in investmenting in the muggle world. Also, they may be involved in front businesses that exist to move legal goods and services between the two worlds. You know the Goblin's motto, "Anything for a buck". (I made that up.) Well, it's all pure speculation with hardly a shred of evidence to back it up, but that's how I see it. bboy_mn From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 15 19:26:14 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 19:26:14 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - his official History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98442 Wanda: > Hang on, though - what about other news sources? Didn't Uncle Vernon know a Muggle's version of Sirius Black's exploits? < Pippin: No. The Muggle witnesses to Black's crimes were memory charmed. PoA ch 10. And since when has Uncle Vernon been willing to answer Harry's questions? Wanda: >And at the beginning of OotP, Harry is eavesdropping on the TV news, hoping to hear anything about Voldemort. Why wouldn't he have gone looking through back issues of the newspapers, to see how news of the WW had trickled down into the Muggle world? < Pippin: The Dursleys never let Harry belong to the library. And his research skills have never been very good anyway. He just doesn't retain information the way Hermione does. When he looks up stuff on his own, he gets distracted by people with weird names and never remembers exactly what it was they did. As for getting books out of the Hogwarts library, can you imagine what Draco would have said if he'd spotted Harry with a copy of Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts? 'Look, Pottie's reading about *himself*. Can I have a signed copy, Pottie?' Harry also is extremely reluctant to ask any question he thinks will make him look stupid. There's only a few people he trusts not to make fun of his ignorance. Don't-you -*read*-Hermione isn't one of them. I admit that he is eventually going to have to get over this, and I think we've seen signs of it in OOP already Pippin From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 15 19:38:37 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 19:38:37 -0000 Subject: Why we SHIP (WAS: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > Kneasy: first of all, you're cracked to think that no one reads your > posts, because yours are most entertaining. I love how gleeful and > delighted you sound and can almost hear your maniacal laugh as you > think > about which significant characters will die a horrible, painful > death :-). > Kneasy: Maniacal laughter? (Igor! More potion. Quickly!) Aaah. Yes, I do enjoy it. It's wonderful. Letting my imagination romp across a landscape strewn with dearly departeds. Must correct a misconception that I caused. This "nobody reads 'em" thing. I didn't mean nobody reads my posts; the gratifying number of responses belies that - it's the references I give for past posts that I have my doubts about. Nobody ever comes back wiith "Hoi! You said...,,but......" Susan: > The Weasleys: you're right, of course, that some of them will have > to die. Why else go into detail about Molly's worry (the boggart) > and tell us all about the clock? I hope Ron's not one of the ones > who dies, but he probably will be. > > The twins are certain candidates because they're ornery and seek > excitement. They'll land in the thick of it. Percy, I'm afraid, > won't get killed because he's too cautious and obedient. Someone > will probably tell him (right before the big battle) that his report > on cauldron bottoms needs to be revised, and he'll miss the entire > thing because he's rewriting his report. > > I think Molly will live, but I'm really worried for Arthur. He's a > good guy and one of my favorite characters, and he'll go to his death > defending his friends and his children. > > Bill and Charlie: They've got to figure into this somewhere, but for > all you shippers out there, I think Ginny's gonna meet her maker. > She's the only Weasley girl. Gotta die. IF Harry survives, he'll > spend the rest of his life as a tortured soul knowing his one true > love died saving him. [:-)] > Kneasy: Yes, the Weasleys are a problem aren't they? Charlie is a non-entity, so there's no point in knocking him off. I mean, who'd notice? Molly? No, I don't think so. Someone has to be prostrate with grief when the bodies are brought home. She's elected. Arthur; well, he's had his brush with death. Hardly fair for him to have survived the ministrations of St Mungo's only to cop it in the neck later on. Besides, I like him. I shall be displeased if he goes. Be warned. Percy is a sneaky little snot, but reconciliation with his family is more likely than his demise. It'll add that touch of "Little House on the Prairie" to proceedings. Ron will end up rich and famous. Ginny I see going into partnership with MADAM WHIPLASH at her pleasure parlour down on the Bay. I have high hopes of Ginny. Who's left? Bill and the twins. Perfectly logical. Sorry boys. You're it. Susan: > I agree that Lucius will probably live, but Draco? Hmmm. That's > tough. I can't decide about him. Neville however, should live just > because he's so endearing, and actually, because he'll finally find > out how much magical power he really possesses. I can see him being > a teacher at Hogwarts; a nice teacher, perhaps of potions, who takes > the time to explain WHY and HOW. Kneasy: I've already read the runes; Draco will meet a most interesting end at the hands of Dominatrix Bella. A schoolboy fantasy par excellence! The trouble is Draco won't be up to it. Neville will survive I think. Though once he breaks free of Gran the WW had better watch out. He'll be making up for lost time. Can't make up my mind if he'll end up as the greatest herbologist of the age or as Mundungus Fletchers' apprentice. > Susan (who's apologizing immediately for taking such delight in the > deaths of so many characters ;-) Kneasy: Why apologise? Remember, the fan world is where the people of the imagi-Nation live and play. From yswahl at stis.net Sat May 15 20:18:41 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 20:18:41 -0000 Subject: Who knows ? (But its fun to predict....) End of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98444 Kneasy: Neville will survive I think. Though once he breaks free of Gran the WW had better watch out. He'll be making up for lost time. Can't make up my mind if he'll end up as the greatest herbologist of the age or as Mundungus Fletchers' apprentice. Samnanya I dont think so..... IMHO the end of book 1 foreshadows book 7 -- it was Neville in Book 1 that DD saved for last for praise "in standing up to his friends", something DD admitted to not being able to do in OOP because of his love for Harry. In addition, it is not an accident that Trelawney repeats the prophecy twice as she hasd done before in POA, implying that Neville as well as Harry will play a part in LV's demise, and so it just might come to this ......... Neville's wizarding skills continue to develop... Harry finally confronts Voldemort in book 7 and Voldemort loses his own body (he never learns, does he?) and occupies Harry's body so that Harry is now Harry!mort. Harry!mort is in conflict as neither can live while the other survives... But there is a resolution! Only Neville can "stand up to his friend" and fight him, just like he tried to do in Book 1, and thus "defeat Harry!mort" to fulfill the prophecy in killing Voldemort's spirit just as Harry had fulfilled the prophecy in killing Voldemort's body. As to which of Harry and Neville survive, I can only guess, but as Neville ultimately failed in book 1, i assume that he does not survive, and Harry is restored. Neville's courage is recognized posthumously, as a bittersweet ending to the series. I have reasons to strongly support this scenario which I will gladly explain if anyone is curious enough to try to demonstrate by canon as opposed to "You're an idiot for thinking that!" why the above scenario will not happen (especially Kneasy...) I also believe that there will not be massive carnage as some expect because that does not follow from canon, nor does it follow from my readings of any of the the writer(s) that JKR was influenced by. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat May 15 20:27:49 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 20:27:49 -0000 Subject: Busting of Bubbles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98445 JKR's new and totally fabulous website is up (http://www.jkrowling.com) and the following theories have been rendered null and void: Ginny is short for Virginia/nothing-just-Ginny. It's Ginevra, and she's the first female Weasley in several generations. Harry is related to Dumbledore. ("You really have been watching too much Star Wars...") Harry is descended from Salazar Slytherin. He's not, and my heart is cleft in twain. Molly is related to the Malfoys. Her maiden name is Prewett (yeah, *those* Prewetts.) The good news is that Dean Thomas has a lovely long backstory that was edited out in favor of Neville's story, since he has more to do with the plot, but may turn up later on. --JDR From lists at heidi8.com Sat May 15 21:22:02 2004 From: lists at heidi8.com (heiditandy) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 21:22:02 -0000 Subject: JKR's site Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98446 In the next 20 hours, FictionAlley is going to have up a page of all the new bits of info from the site - at least all the ones we're able to find (we've already got the ones about Ginny, Dean, Nott, Molly, Lockhart and Mafalda, among others, and the bit about Sirius's eye colour). It'll be at http://www.lumosdissendium.org/essays/tidbits-2004.html And for those of you who want backstory on the Sirius Is Sexy thing... The woman who asked the question is an HPfGU-er - her post is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/255 A little bit of history from a fandom oldbie who remembers the squeeing about that bit of info... back in 2000! Heidi for FictionAlley From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat May 15 21:44:40 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 21:44:40 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - his official History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98448 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: Eustace_Scrubb: > However, let's go one more step...what would he have learned exactly? > Historians, alas, don't always tell the truth; they don't always do > good research; their work may be co-opted to reflect official opinions > and negate those not accepted by the hierarchy. Sometimes historians > fill in the gaps of evidence with imaginative inferences--sometimes > they get them right, sometimes wrong. They rarely get the whole > picture. (I'm a historian myself, so I'm not saying this without some > careful thought and knowledge of the field). > Geoff: I have to agree wiht Eustace on this. I have on a couple of occasions in the last few years tried to research data about one or two people who were not great politicians or such but were well-known names in their own field. Using different sources I found information which conflicted in things such as dates and places; I found the very bit of information I wanted was missing and I found information which seemed to be based on artistic licence rather that fact. So I think that if Harry tried to read one of the books HG mentions, he might well find that he had more questions to deal with than he started with. From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat May 15 21:56:11 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 21:56:11 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - his official History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98449 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > So I think that if Harry tried to read one of the books HG mentions, > he might well find that he had more questions to deal with than he > started with. Oh come on Geoff, we're not talking about him writing a doctoral thesis here, just asking someone who his Grandma was would have been nice. Mel From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat May 15 22:25:25 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 22:25:25 -0000 Subject: Bad news continues for Slytherins Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98450 Well, JKR's own site doesn't hold out much hope for all those desperately trying to find the 'good Slytherin', what with: -Mafalda, the dropped Weasley cousin, who was going to be a nasty little witch in Slytherin, clever, but also nosy, eavesdropping and liking to impress. She had been going to annoy Hermione as much as Draco annoys Harry. Pity.. -Theodore Nott, a clever loner, Malfoy's equal socially, and superior intellectually who sees no need to join gangs. Sounds a bit like a younger Snape, and not very likely to join the DA either. But at least we now know for definite that Harry is *not* descended from Salazar..and is *not* related to Voldemort, who *is* descended from Salazar. I suppose that moves us forward about half an inch! Carolyn From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 15 22:25:19 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 18:25:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Busting of Bubbles Message-ID: <12e.41bd254a.2dd7f2cf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98451 In a message dated 05/15/2004 4:09:07 PM Central Daylight Time, jdr0918 at hotmail.com writes: > Harry is related to Dumbledore. ("You really have been watching too > much Star Wars...") > > Actually that's what she said about Voldemort. She also stated that James is Harry's father. About Dumbledore she said that if he were Harry's grandfather do you think Harry would have been left with the Dursleys? She also took offense to the suggestion that Lily was a death eater "How dare you" And that in the initial draft of PS/SS the Potters lived on an island and the Grangers lived on the mainland. Mr Granger saw an explosion at sea, sailed out there and found James and Lily's bodies in the rubble. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at vcem.com Sat May 15 22:36:43 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 15:36:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Busting of Bubbles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1325362328.20040515153643@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98452 Hi, Saturday, May 15, 2004, 1:27:49 PM, jdr0918 wrote: > JKR's new and totally fabulous website is up > (http://www.jkrowling.com) and the following theories have been > rendered null and void: And then there is the mention that Hermione's boggart really was what she said in the book, and related to insecurity and fear of failure. This made me very happy :) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 15 22:50:35 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 22:50:35 -0000 Subject: Busting of Bubbles -JKR - Text Version In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98453 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > bboy_mn: > > For those of you who find excessive JAVA and overblown FLASH as > tedious as I do, here is a link to the Text Only Version of JKR's website. > > For reference, I have tried both the JAVA/FLASH version and the text > version, and I still say the JAVA/FLASH version is tedious, slow, > difficult, but, yes, very fancy; even cute. > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/welcome.cfm > > Just to add another teaser to the mix, JKR went to a MuggleNet Web > Chat and had this to say... > > "Nobody was even remotely interested in my theories about what's going > to happen in book 7..." > > Sometimes I think we think we know too much. > > Just passing it along. > > bboy_mn Thank you, Steve! I did like the "text-only" version better. :o) Some of JKR answers to the rumours were absolutley priceless. I was laughing when she denied the rumor that "with the bit of therapy Voldie will be real sweeetheart". :o) I am guilty though of liking the name. Alla From dk59us at yahoo.com Sat May 15 23:21:02 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 23:21:02 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - his official History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98454 Geoff Bannister wrote: > > > > So I think that if Harry tried to read one of the books HG > mentions, > > he might well find that he had more questions to deal with than he > > started with. Then Mel admonished: > > Oh come on Geoff, we're not talking about him writing a doctoral > thesis here, just asking someone who his Grandma was would have been > nice. Back to Eustace_Scrubb, who opened this can of worms: Yes, but what Kneasy was suggesting originally was that Hermione gave Harry a really obvious source of information by mentioning the names of two histories that discuss Harry...all I suggested and all Geoff was basically concurring with (I think), was that Harry wouldn't have found all the answers (maybe none of them) in those books. In my original post, I agreed with those who think Harry's apparent lack of curiousity is problematical. There have been reasonable (if not entirely satisfactory) explanations for this, but it's still curious, very curious. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun May 16 00:15:30 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 00:15:30 -0000 Subject: Busting of Bubbles In-Reply-To: <12e.41bd254a.2dd7f2cf@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98455 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 05/15/2004 4:09:07 PM Central Daylight Time, > jdr0918 at h... writes: > Harry's father. > > About Dumbledore she said that if he were Harry's grandfather do you think > Harry would have been left with the Dursleys? Hickengruendler: Actually, there could be a very good answer for this. Dumbledore is a blood relative from James and therefore can't protect Harry as much as Petunia, a blood relative from Lily. But because I never thought that Dumbledore is related to Harry, I'll shut up now *g*. And I loved this site. Is it really fun, and those informations are a little gold mine. Especially the part about Theodore Nott is fascinating. A loner, who isn't involved in any groups. He could be a very good candidate for the good Slytherin. First, because he doesn't care for group pressure and is likely to form his own opinions and second, because JKR emphasized that his father was hurt badly, and Malfoy and the Death eaters just left him. Maybe Theodore is angry about this, if he learns the truth. The other informations, especially about Dean, are interesting as well. Hickengruendler From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun May 16 03:56:11 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 03:56:11 -0000 Subject: Victims WAS: Why we SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98460 Congratulations, Kneasy. You are one of the few people who could turn a comment about SHIPping into a discussion of death and victims. In the spirit of the moment, I'll play along. Kneasy says: I've never seen this quote before and it warms the cockles of my evil, dark, FEATHERBOA-bedecked heart. Oh, happy day! Multiple deaths to come and the likelihood that there will be significant characters among the fatalities. Oh, splendid! Time to make a list: DD for certain- he's not described as increasingly old and tired for nothing. It's a foreshadowing. SSSusan says: Yup, I think this one's a given. I'll bet if we polled the group, we'd be at least 90% on this one. Bookworm: Won't we all be surprised if JKR keeps him alive... Kneasy: Harry probably antoshachekhonte: I don't think Harry will necessarily snuff it. I think that's a less interesting ending to the series than watching him actually contemplate life-after-Voldy. Bookworm: In one of her more recent interviews, the way JKR answered a question made me think she wasn't really going to kill Harry. As for a painful struggle, some sort of sacrifice ? that's where I'll place my bet. antoshachekhonte : I hope there isn't a mass Weasley-cide. But if there is, I'm voting for Percy -- in some sort of heroic, redemptive gesture. Bill and Charlie are possibilities--they're in the line of fire. antoshachekhonte added: I think the Arthur and Molly--one or both--are the most likely casualties. Thematically, mythically, the death of the parents opens the opportunity for the children to assume their proper place. SSSusan replies: I think you're right, antoshachekhonte. I don't like the thought of either Weasley parent dying, but I think it's likely, and your reasoning makes sense to me. In all honesty, as much as I [don't throw tomatoes, please] adore Molly and appreciate Arthur, I'd rather see one of them bite it than have one of the twins or Ron or Ginny die. Kneasy: Arthur; well, he's had his brush with death. Hardly fair for him to have survived the ministrations of St Mungo's only to cop it in the neck later on. Besides, I like him. I shall be displeased if he goes. Be warned. Percy is a sneaky little snot, but reconciliation with his family is more likely than his demise. It'll add that touch of "Little House on the Prairie" to proceedings. Bookworm: I shudder in my shoes . Do you believe in Ron's divination talent? If his prediction is right, then good ol' Dad will be Minister. Then again, he could become Minister and then get killed. My bet is that he will become Minister at the end and be the one to pick up the pieces after VW2. As for the rest, my first guess was Percy, but I'm not sure now (see comment for Pettigrew, below). Possibly Charlie, because he *is* an unknown ? he would add to the body count without the anguish for one of the other Weasleys (except Percy). Kneasy: Draco? Why not. Slimy little tosser. His dad's a survivor though. SSSusan: I'd rather see Lucius die than Draco. I'm convinced that Lucius is in this ALL for himself, was in fact working to take the WW over himself `til Voldy returned, and that if somehow Voldy is gone at the end but Lucius is still with us, well, the WW will be in bad shape. I vote for Lucius dying and Draco not. I agree that Peter will buy it. But I rather think that his repayment of his life-debt will be a keystone in Voldy's defeat. Kneasy: I've already read the runes; Draco will meet a most interesting end at the hands of Dominatrix Bella. A schoolboy fantasy par excellence! The trouble is Draco won't be up to it. Bookworm: My, what an image. However, I'm all for Lucius dying in a very embarrassing, undignified manner that brings shame to the Malfoy name, and Draco has to live with it. Kneasy: Peter - in a futile attempt to repay his life debt; incompetent as ever. Antoshachekhonte: I agree that Peter will buy it. But I rather think that his repayment of his life-debt will be a keystone in Voldy's defeat. SSSusan: I'm inclined to agree with both of you that Peter will die but with Anto that it will be an important death somehow in Harry's ability to get to Voldy. Bookworm: If Peter sacrifices himself to help Harry defeat Voldemort, which I think is likely, it probably negates Percy doing the same thing. Two sacrificial deaths might be a bit much. Antoshachekhonte: As for others? Well, Remus seems highly likely to go down in a fanged-and-furry blaze of glory in the next book or two. SSSusan: As for Lupin, I do NOT think he'll die. To have all four Marauders die by the end? Would JKR do that to us?? Bookworm: I really hope not. I like Lupin. Antoshachekhonte: How about Aunt Petunia? Again, in an act of some kind of redemption, she might save Harry at some point. Bookworm: I wouldn't bet on Petunia sacrificing herself for Harry. Maybe if Ickle Diddykins was attacked. Now that Little Whining isn't as safe as it was, expect another attack on the Dursleys. Antoshachekhonte: I will say, again, however, that I don't expect a bloodbath. Killing dozens of characters *lessens* the impact--readers become desensitized. Also turned off. Bookworm: JKR did say there would be more deaths. So more than one, but a bloodbath doesn't seem JKR's style. Given her reaction to killing off Sirius, I think a handful of deaths (3-4?) would count as ominous to her. Sorry, Kneasy. SSSusan: What about Minerva? Nobody's brought her up yet. Will she be the new Headmistress? Bookworm: SSSusan, I'm surprised. You don't think Professor Snape will be promoted? Ravenclaw Bookworm From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sun May 16 05:27:37 2004 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 01:27:37 EDT Subject: "You're going to suffer, but be very happy" Message-ID: <1cd.20fae91d.2dd855c9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98461 I was just listening to PoA. There is a scene in Talons and Tea Leaves where Harry is reading Ron's tea leaves. He deduces that Ron is "-going to suffer, but be very happy". I've always figured it was just another joke... ...but then I remembered what happened to Ron in the Department of Mysteries. Now, we don't know exactly what happened, but he was very (maybe even deleriously so) happy. And he was probably suffering. I doubt the Death Eaters hit him with a cheering charm. So was the tea leaf reading a real prediction? Foreshadowing? Am I looking into it too much? ??? Thoughts? ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 16 06:47:27 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 06:47:27 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - his official History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98463 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > > > So I think that if Harry tried to read one of the books HG > mentions, > > he might well find that he had more questions to deal with than he > > started with. Mel: > Oh come on Geoff, we're not talking about him writing a doctoral > thesis here, just asking someone who his Grandma was would have been > nice. Geoff: Neither am I. I'm talking about simple things like where the person was born and what age they were when they carried out a particular action. I have found glaring discrepancies with some books I have read because they have misinterpreted, gone to anecdotal sources or made guesses from other information...... When Hermione says: "I know all about you, of course - I got a few extra books for background reading and you're in 'Modern Magical History' and 'The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts' and 'Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century'." (PS "The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters" p.79 UK edition) ...what does she mean by "all about you"? Is it in the public domain that HP has been living in a cupboard for ten years? Is it common knowledge what precisely happened at Godric's Hollow - it doesn't appear to be too obvious among those who were involved like Hagrid. Have you ever read a book with a name like 'Great Engineers of the World' and found Isambard Kingdom Brunel dismissed in two paragraphs? Just to take a personal example, I've been trying to find out information about my paternal grandfather for some years (because my father became estranged from his family) and I've had two wildly differing dates given to me by family members concerning the simple fact of his date of death. From msmerymac at yahoo.com Sun May 16 09:55:02 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 09:55:02 -0000 Subject: Was Harry drugged? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98464 In OotP, there is a passage where Harry is trying to write his potions essay, but falls asleep as he's reading about scurvy-grass, lovage and sneezewort... "These plantes are moste efficacious in the inflaming of the braine, and are therefore much used in Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts, where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness..." (apologies, I don't have the exact page or chapter right now) Hot-headed and reckless... doesn't this sound like angsty!Harry? And, for that matter, like Sirius? Who could have been making and/or slipping Harry a potion? And why wait until the 5th year? There's no saying how long the potion lasts, so my guess goes to Kreature, or Umbridge. I know how everyone feels about Neville, but he IS awfully good at Herbology and he was at St. Mungo's the day Broderick Bode received the Devil's Snare. Maybe some ESE!Lupin fans will even take a crack at this? ~Luckie From patientx3 at aol.com Sun May 16 10:59:55 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 10:59:55 -0000 Subject: Was Harry drugged? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98466 Luckie wrote: >>In OotP, there is a passage where Harry is trying to write his potions essay, but falls asleep as he's reading about scurvy-grass, lovage and sneezewort... [snip OotP quote] Hot-headed and reckless... doesn't this sound like angsty!Harry? And, for that matter, like Sirius? Who could have been making and/or slipping Harry a potion? And why wait until the 5th year? There's no saying how long the potion lasts, so my guess goes to Kreature, or Umbridge.<< HunterGreen: There was a long thread about this passage back in March (if you're curious), it starts with post 93021. IMHO, while the passage seems to hint at a possible malicious use of the grass, I think it was just Harry falling asleep and his mind was wandering. There are plenty of non-magical reasons for Harry's mood during OotP. The same goes for Sirius (although his mood lifting during the time Kreacher is missing could be evidence of some sort of poisoning). I think either of their emotions during OotP being attributed to poisoning would detract from the story rather than add to it, its too simplistic. Personally, I enjoyed Angry!Harry, it was about time he got upset about everything he's subjected to, he always seemed to recover too quickly from each end-of-book-calamity. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 16 12:42:33 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 12:42:33 -0000 Subject: Bad news continues for Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98467 Carolyn wrote: > > -Theodore Nott, a clever loner, Malfoy's equal socially, and superior > intellectually who sees no need to join gangs. Sounds a bit like a > younger Snape, and not very likely to join the DA either. > Potioncat: Where did you find the bit about Theodore Nott? I don't see anything about him. What is the chance that someone can "find" that chat and see what she predicted. Of course, she didn't say she predicted "honestly." From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 16 12:51:10 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 12:51:10 -0000 Subject: Flesh-eating slug repellant In-Reply-To: <20040515023733.46522.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98468 > Miranda here: > > What if this is the moment in COS that Kloves had to keep in... it's in the movie, and I've always thought Coltrane's line delivery emphasized what seems like a lie... just the way he said it... i mean, Hagrid didn't have to be there, Harry could've wandered out of Knockturn Alley on his own, or seen the Weasley's or Hermione who were looking for him or something... any thoughts? Could this mean Hagrid is up to something? Perhaps even... ESE? Potioncat: The slugs are mentioned later in the book as well. It is sort of jarring, isn't it? We see the Malfoys there and then we see Hagrid. Right busy place! Potioncat From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sun May 16 13:16:12 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 13:16:12 -0000 Subject: Bad news continues for Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98471 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > Where did you find the bit about Theodore Nott? I don't see > anything about him. > > What is the chance that someone can "find" that chat and see what > she predicted. Of course, she didn't say she predicted "honestly." "K" As was just said, it's under Extra Stuff http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/textonly/extrastuff.cfm ~~About Here are a few bits and pieces from my notes that you might find interesting; some scenes that were cut, a few extra details about some of the characters and some completely useless information that I thought I'd throw in anyway. There will be more where this came from, I've got a lot of notes. Then go to Cut Scenes http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/textonly/extrastuff.cfm?ref=cutscenes Malfoy & Nott (Chamber of Secrets/Goblet of Fire) http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=5 I personally loved the info on Nott. Of course I'm also hoping for a good Slytherin. I also want to say that I can find no evidence that JKR ever said there would be one. I think that is just the desire of many of us. ~~JKR: As in the case of Dean Thomas, I know much more about Theodore Nott than has ever appeared in the books. Raised by a very elderly widower and Death Eater father, Theodore is a clever loner who does not feel the need to join gangs, including Malfoy's. Widower? Is Nott the one who saw the Threstals? "K" http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/en/ From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun May 16 13:15:33 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 13:15:33 -0000 Subject: Draco & Bella (was: Why we SHIP ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98472 > Kneasy: > I've already read the runes; Draco will meet a most interesting end at > the hands of Dominatrix Bella. A schoolboy fantasy par excellence! The > trouble is Draco won't be up to it. Ginger, recoiling in horror and disgust: Eeeew! Kneasy! Ick! Ick! Ick! Bella is Draco's *aunt*! She's his mother's sister. A *blood- aunt*! You don't get into a dominatrix situation with your blood- aunt. It's just wrong. I come from a long line of interfamilial marriages, (which is why I get my undies in a knot when people chalk it up to inbreeding when commenting that Crabbe/Goyle are stupid or that Malfoy is evil or that Bella has squirrels in her curls because that's how inbred people are) but I'm here to tell you, you marry your cousin, not your aunt. Ginger, who, in the interest of political correctness, assures everyone that if they happen to be in a dominatrix situation with their blood-aunt, that there's nothing wrong with that. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 15 17:43:42 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 17:43:42 -0000 Subject: The Potters: A History (was How dim is Harry?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98473 Kneasy quoted: >"I know all about you, of course - I got a few extra books > for background reading, and you're in "Modern Magical > History" and "The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts" and > "Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century." > "Am I?" said Harry, feeling dazed. > "Goodness, didn't you know, I'd have found out everything > I could if it was me," said Hermione. Now Eustace_Scrubb: >let's go one more step...what would he have learned exactly? Historians, alas, don't always tell the truth; they don't always do good research; their work may be co-opted to reflect official opinions and negate those not accepted by the hierarchy. Sometimes historians fill in the gaps of evidence with imaginative inferences-- sometimes they get them right, sometimes wrong. They rarely get the whole picture. (I'm a historian myself, so I'm not saying this without some careful thought and knowledge of the field). IMHO, Eustace asked the right question. What exactly would Harry have learned? Look at the books Hermione mentions. It seems to me that these books would tell little more than what we (now) already know: that Harry was somehow able to defeat the Dark Lord even though LV was THE Dark Lord and Harry was a baby. The two people who are most involved in LV's defeat, Harry and LV, don't know squat about how it happened. Seems to me that's the main reason LV's gunning for Harry in the first place. He wants to know how some little runt of a kid defeated the most powerful Dark wizard of his time. Further, wouldn't Harry want to know more personal things, like about his parents' friends (the Marauders), the fact that Lily didn't even like James until they were in their 7th year, the fact that his dad and mates were ornery pranksters, etc.? I mean, I would. If I never knew my parents, I'd be more interested in learning what they were like as people rather than reading various accounts of their horrible demise. And where else can he get this info but from people like Sirius and Remus? I'd really like to see Harry talk to Remus more about this kind of thing. "So, what was my dad like when he wasn't being a jerk? Did he Choose to be a stag? If so, then why?" etc. Plus, there are questions that only the people involved can answer anyways. Since Sirius was convicted without a trial and everyone assumed he was guilty, which was entirely false, neither these books nor obviously their authors can really answer anything with any degree of certainty. Why, if Sirius, Remus and James were so close, did Sirius and Remus not trust each other? Why didn't Sirius trust himself to be the secret keeper? Why pick Peter over Remus? IMO, Remus needs to come clean about whatever he knows about that night and explain it in the context of the four of them all being close friends and members of the Order. Eustace is right. Historians cannot get the entire picture in the first place, and plus, everything anyone's ever going to say can only ever be their subjective view. Susan (who Siriusly wants some answers herself!) From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat May 15 19:29:26 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 19:29:26 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - Abuse and Oppression. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98474 Kneasy: > The reader starts to notice it; not just notice, but *anticipate* it. And > it detracts badly from the story. The first part of OoP, Harry was > throwing a wobbler "Nobody tells me anything!" was his constant > whine. To which, all over the world, came the reply "That's because > you never ask the right bloody questions!" Finwitch: IMO, Harry simply doesn't know enough to even know what to ask! And he DID try - but all he gets is 'we can't tell you because the letters could be intercepted'. The problem is that, for the early part of his life, #1 rule was "Don't ask questions" (he still DOES ask, occasionally); Then, when Hagrid comes up and he finally gets his his letter - he finds out that most of the answers he got were lies! (his own memories confirm Hagrid's truthfulness, though) - so, he ends up in a World of which he knows absolutely nothing - not even what to ask. And when he finally knows what to ask, he doesn't get an answer. (Harry DID ask the question, but Dumbledore waited 4 years before he finally answered!) Without Sirius, no one would have answered him at the beginning of the 5th book, you know... I think Harry's going to be a bit more demanding now on, though - he no longer trusts that adults secrecy is for the best. In fact, I seriously doubt he trusts anyone but himself now! Dumbledore didn't tell him about the prophecy, purposefully puts him to the hands of his nasty relatives, and just about every adult is in with putting him into the misery known as Dursleys or involved in other conspiracy against him. (and besides, what magical protection there may be, it does NOT protect Harry from Dursleys!) Harry has his doubts about Hermione who backed off from her own idea just because the one person Harry truly trusted was FOR it! (and mind, Sirius' reasoning IS sound!) as for the rest, well... with all the 'Dark Lord' and 'you-know-who'- business, how can he trust someone who fears to say Voldemort to care for and protect him when it's Voldemort he needs to be protected from? Oh yes, there's another reason why Harry doesn't ask questions: he doesn't trust anyone enough to do so, and the one he trusted enough, is dead (and if Sirius isn't truly dead and comes back, Harry's going to doubt it IS Sirius!). Finwitch From silver_owl_01 at yahoo.com Sat May 15 20:04:38 2004 From: silver_owl_01 at yahoo.com (silver_owl_01) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 20:04:38 -0000 Subject: Theories out of comision Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98475 Well, our dear author finally has a website: www.jkrowling.com In the Rumors section of that site several theories are categorically denied by JKR herself. So now we can tell with absolute certanty that: - Dumbledore is NOT harry's Grandfather, nor is he a close relative. - James is DEFINITELY Harry's father. - Voldemort is the LAST surviving descendant of Salazar Slytherin. - Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin. - Lily Potter is dead - Lily was never a Death Eater - No prequels are planned - Crookshanks is NOT an Animagus - Neville is not Peter Petigrew's son. - Lupin doesn't have a twin. - Harry will not be Minister of Magic by the end of book seven. Also, I personaly get the impresion that JKR doesn't appreciate comparisons with Star Wars very much. From dejjfan368 at aol.com Sun May 16 01:36:53 2004 From: dejjfan368 at aol.com (ebennet68) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 01:36:53 -0000 Subject: Small Thing in COS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98476 I just got done catching up on a few of the digests tha build up this week and came across some discussion about what the small thing from the COS movie might be. Someone was saying (sorry, don't know who as I don't have the digest in front of me right now) something about the sheet of paper in Hermione's hand as a possibility. Did anyone notice in the scene in Flourish and Blotts where Draco Malfoy tears a page out of a book before he goes down the stairs to have a confrontation with Harry? I have wondered for a while if there is some connection. ebennet68 (who apologizes if this has been discussed or mentioned before) From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Sun May 16 02:54:47 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 02:54:47 -0000 Subject: New Canon from JKR site Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98477 So, now if we figure out how to get around the new JKRowling.com, we learn various clues, such as Ginny's full name and the fact that the Philosopher's Stone was ... this was left out of PS, but sounds spoilerish, so... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - originally, found in the vault of Harry's family. This seems to support some posters' theory that his parents were working with Dumbledore or descendants of flamel, etc... Anyone care to theorize what that means? To see the original manuscript, you have to... - - - - - - - - - - use the cell phone as in OOTP. AJ From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Sun May 16 03:22:22 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 03:22:22 -0000 Subject: Who knows ? (But its fun to predict....) End of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98478 I have been reading these posts about the end of book 7 (and the HP series) and this ideal has been bouncing around my head and I would like to put it out here. The HP stories have always had two main plot lines that run though all the books. One, Harry's journey though Hogwarts and Two, the destruction of Voldemort. JKR has said that book 7 is the end the HP stories. Now these books are meant for young readers I don't think that JKR will end them with a massacre. I believe that the end will be a positive one. So Harry will graduate Hogwarts and defeat LV for good. Now though out all this Harry has been helped and has helped Ron and Hermione go down these twin paths. That's why they came together in the first place and now that these tasks have been completed, the Trio's reason for being is completed as well. I can see the final chapter of the final book being HRH coming to the realization that it's time for each of them to go their own way. It would be bittersweet but after going though SS again I can't help feeling that it fits, that it's the natural end. From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Sun May 16 05:21:18 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 05:21:18 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on the new Defense of the Dark Arts teacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98479 One of the things people have tried to predict is who will be the new Defense Against the Dark Arts (DADA) teacher. Looking at patterns in JKR's first five books, I can make some decent guesses about the next DADA teacher. With the exception of the first book all DADA teachers were never mentioned in any earlier book. Also, all of the teachers made an appearance before the school term began. Quirrell in The Leaky Cauldron, Lockhart in Flourish and Blotts, Lupin on the Hogwart's Express, Crouch Jr. At the World Quidditch Cup, (Moody was also mentioned at this time), Umbridge at Harry's hearing. I see the following pattern with DADA teachers: 1) Try to kill Harry and bring Voldemort back (Quirrell, Crouch Jr.) 2) Incompetent and despised by the staff (Lockhart, Umbridge) 3) Competent and on good terms with Harry (Lupin) So this tells me that the next DADA will be on fairly good terms with Harry and competent in his or her skills. This person will have not been introduced before. We will not have known this person before book six. I also believe that this person will visit Harry at Privet Drive shortly after Harry returns from Kings Cross, (chapter one). My guess that due to the attacks last year the powers that be deem it necessary to have a bodyguard near Harry at all times. Since JKR has mentioned that the families of the faculty and staff at Hogwarts play an important part in the story, it is possible for one of them to come out now. Possibilities are a family member of McGonagall, Sprout, or Pomfrey. Why not now. I also think that this person will be an Animagus to keep a relatively low profile on Privet Drive. Harry and the Dursleys will know about him or her, but none of their neighbors, (except Mrs. Figg). JKR has mentioned that chapter twenty-nine (Career Advice) had some clues to the future books. I believe that this person will be someone who earned twelve O.W.L.S. while at Hogwarts and can mentor Harry in his path to become an Auror. I do not believe that the new DADA teacher will be an Auror however. His or her profession will be something that has not been mentioned in the previous books. My guess is that he or she will be from something like the Wizard military or S.W.A.T. equivalent. Given what has happened with the Ministry of Magic last year, this person could possibly be an employee at the MOM that became totally disgusted with the politics of Mr. Fudge and quit. Dumbledore could have approached this person before, but the timing wasn't right. Now this person feels that the most important thing he or she could do is train the next generation of young wizards. Since Harry has become very good at fighting `wizard style' and has taught many of his peers in Dumbledore's Army, this new person will be able to help augment what Harry has taught his fellow students. As Lupin taught Harry the Patronus Charm, this new teacher will teach Harry some very advanced techniques. I expect this person to be very good in combat against other wizards. It is possible that he or she will be in a fight early on in the Privet Drive area as Voldemort's followers are upset that Harry and company helped send some of the Death Eaters to Azkaban. I think the readers will love this new teacher as much as they hunted Umbridge. Also, since JKR hasn't explained how certain wizards become ghosts and others do not, it is quite possible that the new teacher will be killed and become a ghost. From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Sun May 16 08:36:01 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 08:36:01 -0000 Subject: Thestral Theodore? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98480 Hey, I was just mulling over what JKR's site said about Theodore Nott, son of an elderly widower, and then thought, well, if his mother had died, then perhaps he IS the stringy Slytherin boy who could see the thestrals in OOTP. Anyhow... aj From astrudschuck at yahoo.com Sun May 16 10:49:45 2004 From: astrudschuck at yahoo.com (astrud schuck) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 03:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Harry drugged? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040516104945.69734.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98481 Hi! I don't believe Harry was drugged. what he experienced was something between being half awake and coming on to dream. It usually happens when one is falling asleep in the middle homework. Meredith wrote:In OotP, there is a passage where Harry is trying to write his potions essay, but falls asleep as he's reading about scurvy-grass, lovage and sneezewort... "These plantes are moste efficacious in the inflaming of the braine, and are therefore much used in Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts, where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness..." (apologies, I don't have the exact page or chapter right now) Hot-headed and reckless... doesn't this sound like angsty!Harry? And, for that matter, like Sirius? Who could have been making and/or slipping Harry a potion? And why wait until the 5th year? There's no saying how long the potion lasts, so my guess goes to Kreature, or Umbridge. I know how everyone feels about Neville, but he IS awfully good at Herbology and he was at St. Mungo's the day Broderick Bode received the Devil's Snare. Maybe some ESE!Lupin fans will even take a crack at this? ~Luckie From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun May 16 13:38:25 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 13:38:25 -0000 Subject: Who knows ? (But its fun to predict....) End of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98482 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" wrote: > and so it just might come to this ......... > > Neville's wizarding skills continue to develop... > Harry finally confronts Voldemort in book 7 and Voldemort > loses his own body (he never learns, does he?) and occupies > Harry's body so that Harry is now Harry!mort. Harry!mort > is in conflict as neither can live while the other survives... > But there is a resolution! Only Neville can "stand up to his > friend" and fight him, just like he tried to do in Book 1, > and thus "defeat Harry!mort" to fulfill the prophecy in > killing Voldemort's spirit just as Harry had fulfilled the > prophecy in killing Voldemort's body. As to which of Harry > and Neville survive, I can only guess, but as Neville > ultimately failed in book 1, i assume that he does not > survive, and Harry is restored. Neville's courage is > recognized posthumously, as a bittersweet ending to > the series. > I have reasons to strongly support this scenario which I > will gladly explain if anyone is curious enough to try to > demonstrate by canon as opposed to "You're an idiot for > thinking that!" why the above scenario will not happen > (especially Kneasy...) > Hey! Steady on! When have I ever called anyone an idiot? (Don't claim never to have thought it, mind.) Supposition based on canon is always welcome on my screen, whether I agree with it or not - 'cos when someone quotes canon finding more canon (either supporting or refuting) is much easier than countering a fog of wishful thinking masquerading as analysis. I've never paid much attention to Neville; maybe I should. But the theory you propose seems to back my ideas on possession, so it'll be of interest no matter if I agree with your conclusions or not. And the extract that you quote as your post header is no more than a throw-away line, not theory, supposition, conclusion or analysis. I can see that I'll have to start adding flags to my posts - *Warning- joke coming.* So... let's see your canon. Kneasy From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 16 13:48:13 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 13:48:13 -0000 Subject: Small Thing in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ebennet68" wrote: ebennet68: > Did anyone notice > in the scene in Flourish and Blotts where Draco Malfoy tears a page > out of a book before he goes down the stairs to have a confrontation > with Harry? I have wondered for a while if there is some connection. Geoff: That scene in the DVD has left me curious on several occasions; it's not mentioned in the book and nothing appears to come of it in the film. Maybe there is a link. If so, how the heck did Hermione get hold of the page if it is the one Draco tore out? (Though I did get an odd impression that it was the first page he ripped out and wondered if it was the signed bit from one of GL's books). From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun May 16 14:14:46 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 14:14:46 -0000 Subject: Draco & Bella (was: Why we SHIP ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98484 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > > Eeeew! Kneasy! Ick! Ick! Ick! > Bella is Draco's *aunt*! She's his mother's sister. A *blood- > aunt*! You don't get into a dominatrix situation with your blood- > aunt. It's just wrong. I come from a long line of interfamilial > marriages, (which is why I get my undies in a knot when people chalk > it up to inbreeding when commenting that Crabbe/Goyle are stupid or > that Malfoy is evil or that Bella has squirrels in her curls because > that's how inbred people are) but I'm here to tell you, you marry > your cousin, not your aunt. > > Ginger, who, in the interest of political correctness, assures > everyone that if they happen to be in a dominatrix situation with > their blood-aunt, that there's nothing wrong with that. Aunts come in all shapes and sizes and are quite likely to engender fear and trembling in a nephew as soon as their moustaches hove over the horizon - anyone who reads Wodehouse is well informed in these matters. So - the Master informs us that Aunts are a fearsome breed whose destiny and main function is to wreak swathes of destruction among the innocent (unless the aunt happens to employ a good chef). Let there be no talk of marriage or the like. Anyway, I am reliably informed that dominatrices do not allow any - hanky-panky, shall we say. One toe-nail out of line and - "It's the thumb-screws for you, my lad." Judging by how often Draco ends up on the floor of the Hogwarts Express, I'd say he was a sucker for this sort of thing, wouldn't you? A glutton for punishment, in fact. Kneasy From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun May 16 14:32:19 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 14:32:19 -0000 Subject: Gum wrappers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98486 Anyone reckon all those bubble gum wrappers on her desk are a clue towards our favourite Neville theory ? She seems to be as keen on it as the Longbottoms.. Carolyn From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun May 16 14:41:57 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 14:41:57 -0000 Subject: Flesh-eating slug repellant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98487 Potioncat: The slugs are mentioned later in the book as well. It is sort of jarring, isn't it? We see the Malfoys there and then we see Hagrid. Right busy place! vmonte responds: What I find fishy is Hagrid's timing. He appears almost on cue. I think that he was sent there to make sure that Harry didn't get into trouble. This scene reminds me of how Lupin was in the right train compartment at the right time to save Harry from the dementor. vmonte From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 16 15:02:23 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 16 May 2004 15:02:23 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1084719743.19.40226.m21@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98488 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, May 16, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun May 16 15:09:04 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 15:09:04 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? Lack of curiosity seems curious. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98489 vmonte: Here is a scene in which Harry would not have had to ask anyone for information. All he had to do is pick up a book and look through it; but as usual he seems not to have any curiosity. page 116, OOTP, U.S. version: "They found an unpleasant-looking silver instrument, something like a many-legged pair of tweezers, which scuttled up Harry's arm like a spider when he picked it up, an attempted to puncture his skin; Sirius seized it and smashed it with a heavy book entitled Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Genealogy." Wouldn't this book make you curious? Even if for a bit of light reading... see also post #93622 vmonte From ekrbdg at msn.com Sun May 16 15:20:55 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 11:20:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gum wrappers References: Message-ID: <00cf01c43b59$63ac9780$c1e0f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 98490 > Anyone reckon all those bubble gum wrappers on her desk are a clue > towards our favourite Neville theory ? She seems to be as keen on it > as the Longbottoms.. > > Carolyn > > > *Kimberly's comment* Hmmm, good thinking. I read somewhere on her website where she attributed the gum wrappers to her stopping smoking. It even said something to the affect of, "hence the state of my desk". It's under "Extras", "Miscellaneous", "Minesweeper". Now, could she just be saying that as a cover up in addition to it being true ? Maybe... LOL Kimberly From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun May 16 16:23:03 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:23:03 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - his official History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98495 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > > nice. > Just to take a personal example, I've been trying to find out > information about my paternal grandfather for some years (because my > father became estranged from his family) and I've had two wildly > differing dates given to me by family members concerning the simple > fact of his date of death. Ah, but at least you asked! Mel, one liner! Aaah! From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun May 16 16:25:59 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:25:59 -0000 Subject: Bubbles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98496 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: The letter looks like the one Hagrid > sent the kids in POA with tear drops that smudged it making it > difficult to read. I am still trying to decipher what was written. > Very tedious, but fun. Will try to keep you informed. > Back to the deciphering > Snow-aka Kathy King SPOILER SPACE- - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - It's a draft of a scene in which H/R/H are discussing the PS/SS. Harry tells them it was found in *his parents'* vault at Gringotts. Then he gets in a tizzy because it looks like R/H think that maybe J & L Potter originally stole the stone. Mel From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun May 16 16:35:09 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:35:09 -0000 Subject: Gum wrappers In-Reply-To: <00cf01c43b59$63ac9780$c1e0f943@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98497 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" wrote: > > > > Anyone reckon all those bubble gum wrappers on her desk are a clue > > towards our favourite Neville theory ? She seems to be as keen on it > > as the Longbottoms.. > > > > Carolyn > > *Kimberly's comment* > Hmmm, good thinking. I read somewhere on her website where she attributed the gum wrappers to her stopping smoking. Carolyn: Yes, she did, but hey..that's an angle we didn't think of. Maybe the Longbottom's are trying to quit smoking as well ! From yswahl at stis.net Sun May 16 16:55:00 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:55:00 -0000 Subject: Who knows ? (But its fun to predict....) End of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98499 Kneasy Hey! Steady on! When have I ever called anyone an idiot? (Don't claim never to have thought it, mind.) Samnanya Damn.... I have to be REALLY careful on what I say and how I say it. What I MEANT to say was that I respect your opinion, because whether I agree with it or not, you always express yourself well and logically. I did not mean to even remotely imply that you are an idiot. I really WANT to hear your response because you provide arguments for your point of view and not just dismiss or ignore what i or anyone else says because you dont agree with it. However, there are those who respond to a post here by not using logic, let alone canon, saying that a theory or ship is wrong or cant happen merely because it just CANT be right, while ignoring all the points in its favor, and worse yet, not providing a counter argument. Example - Yeah I know many HP fans feel that Lupin is a good guy, but that doesnt mean that someone can't present an interesting argument or four supported by canon as to how he can indeed be evil. The theory is not IMPOSSIBLE, just not popular, and i would LOVE for someone to tear it apart because i cant read right, or whatever, because I really do like Lupin, just dont necessarily trust his motives. But for this post that is not what i am addressing. Canon for the Heroic!Neville, Duality!Prophecy scenarios will follow in next post . Once again, sorry for the misunderstanding. Samnanya From yswahl at stis.net Sun May 16 17:01:47 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 17:01:47 -0000 Subject: Small Thing in COS - Malfoy the Ripper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98500 ebennet68 Did anyone notice in the scene in Flourish and Blotts where Draco Malfoy tears a page out of a book before he goes down the stairs to have a confrontation with Harry? I have wondered for a while if there is some connection. samnanya Ahh funny you should mention it....... I always thought it was the last page of the first Artemis Fowl book -- compare the cover design. Thought it was intended as a cute "in joke" not related to movie or anything else. Any other opinions ? From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun May 16 17:10:13 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 17:10:13 -0000 Subject: Prophecy fullfilment in SS? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98501 Hey all, Have just been reading my copy of SS and am at the part in Chap. 17, The Man With Two Faces, in the Hospital Wing when Harry and DD are talking to one another, after Harry has fended off LV and Quirrell, and I quote: DD: I arrived just in time to pull Quirrell off you...I feared I might be too late. Harry: You nearly were, I couldn't have kept him off the Stone much longer-" DD: Not the Stone, boy, you - the effort involved nearly killed you. For one terrible moment there, I was afraid it had. (Page 297, American hardcover) Here's my question, if Harry had been killed by Quirrell there, would this have been counted as fullfilment of the prophecy? If only Harry can defeat LV, then is LV the only one who can kill Harry? Would Quirrell have been able to kill Harry? Any thoughts? Meri - hoping she isn't repeating a much more intellegent post...but the search function again has turned up nothing... From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun May 16 17:12:50 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 17:12:50 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - his official History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > > nice. > > Just to take a personal example, I've been trying to find out > > information about my paternal grandfather for some years (because > my > > father became estranged from his family) and I've had two wildly > > differing dates given to me by family members concerning the > simple > > fact of his date of death. > > > Ah, but at least you asked! > > Mel, one liner! Aaah! But at what age?? Ravenclaw Bookworm From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 16 17:33:57 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 17:33:57 -0000 Subject: Prophecy fullfilment in SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: Meri: > Here's my question, if Harry had been killed by Quirrell there, > would this have been counted as fullfilment of the prophecy? If only > Harry can defeat LV, then is LV the only one who can kill Harry? > Would Quirrell have been able to kill Harry? Any thoughts? Geoff: Yes, but surely at this point, Quirrell and Voldemort were in a symbiotic relationship, so how far were Quirrell's actions actually those of Voldemort? Maybe Voldemort was trying to get his head round this problem..... From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun May 16 17:49:25 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 17:49:25 -0000 Subject: Gum wrappers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98508 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" wrote: > > > > > > > Anyone reckon all those bubble gum wrappers on her desk are a clue > > > towards our favourite Neville theory ? She seems to be as keen on > it > > > as the Longbottoms.. > > > > > > Carolyn > > > > > *Kimberly's comment* > > Hmmm, good thinking. I read somewhere on her website where she > attributed the gum wrappers to her stopping smoking. Or she's been reading the theories and put them on the desk to poke fun at us. Ravenclaw Bookworm > Carolyn: > Yes, she did, but hey..that's an angle we didn't think of. Maybe the > Longbottom's are trying to quit smoking as well ! From t.forch at mail.dk Sun May 16 18:29:07 2004 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 20:29:07 +0200 Subject: Transcript of "Very early page of PS" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040516202702.01e85700@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 98514 I believe that I have manage to decipher most of the handwriting ;-) but there is still a few words that elude me. These are marked with . If anyone can improve on the transcript, I would be endlessly grateful. "So this Flamel bloke found the stone -" said Ron. "No - _made_ it," said Harry. "He was an alchemist, which " "Someone who turns base metals into gold" said Hermione she had that old proving-I-know-more-than-everyone-else look on her face, the other two noticed, "of course. I read about it in 'Alchemy, Ancient Art and Science' by Argo Pyrites -" "I missed that one myself," muttered Ron. "- of course. It's some of the most difficult magic you can do. And you end up not just with pure gold, but also with a funny stone -" "Which is what I'm on about," said Harry. "The Philosopher's Stone, yes. And it works too. It kept Nicholas Flamel and his wife alive for about five hundred years." "_What_?" "I know," said Harry. "But it's true. He was spotted at the opera in Paris in 1762 and he was born back in 13 something." Ron whistled. "But he's dead now?" he asked. "Of course," said Harry. "Someone stole his Stone so he couldn't make any more Elixir of Life, could he? It takes a while to make another Stone and by that time, I suppose, he was just too old to live without his Elixir until a new stone was ready. And now I'll tell you something else really weird that I haven't told you up to now - the Stone was found in my parents' safe at Gringott's bank." But instead of the interested noises Harry had expected, Ron and Herimione simply stared at him. "What?" said Harry. Ron cleared his throat, opened his mouth to speak, but shut it again. "What?" Harry said. "Well, Harry," said Hermione. "I mean ..." "You mean what?" He stared at them both as tehy shuffled their feet and tried not to look him in the eye. "You don't think," he said suddenly and angrily, "That my _parents_ stole the stone?" "Um ..." said Ron. "Look," said Harry furiously, "That's like saying they _murdered_ Flamel ..." "Oh Harry, we never thought ..." "Not much, you didn't," said Harry. "I don't know how it got in there, but the stone wasn't put there by _them_ ..." "Right," said Ron quickly. "I'm sure you're right." "There must be an obvious explanation," said Hermione. Harry wasn't at all convinced that they meant it, but at that moment the bell rang which put an end to the conservation. /Troels From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun May 16 18:39:42 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 18:39:42 -0000 Subject: Draco & Bella (was: Why we SHIP ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98516 Kneasy wrote: > Aunts come in all shapes and sizes and are quite likely to engender > fear and trembling in a nephew as soon as their moustaches hove > over the horizon - anyone who reads Wodehouse is well informed > in these matters. > > So - the Master informs us that Aunts are a fearsome breed whose > destiny and main function is to wreak swathes of destruction among > the innocent (unless the aunt happens to employ a good chef). > > Let there be no talk of marriage or the like. Anyway, I am reliably > informed that dominatrices do not allow any - hanky-panky, shall > we say. One toe-nail out of line and - "It's the thumb-screws for > you, my lad." > > Judging by how often Draco ends up on the floor of the Hogwarts > Express, I'd say he was a sucker for this sort of thing, wouldn't you? > A glutton for punishment, in fact. > Ginger now: Ok, I'll give you that there are a lot of things I apparently don't know about aunts. Perhaps as I am a female? The mustache comment gave me the willies- so how 'bout this: I'll give you Bella and Draco if you promise never to bring up a shipping possibility between Marge and Harry. We already had a near-bodice ripper when she inflated. :) But back to the original line of thought: The fate of Draco. I don't pretend to have any canon to back it up, but I hope Hagrid ends up saving his sorry hide and he owes him a life debt. Serve him right for being mean to the big lug. Either that or Neville finally gets Switching Spells right and exchanges Draco's head for his rump-and no one notices. As to him being a glutton for punishment, I'd have to disagree. I think he really thinks he can come out on top, and is shocked each time he doesn't. He needs to bring more friends with him on the train. Or at least catch Harry alone. Sucker? Maybe. Overinflated ego? Definately. Comes from hanging out with Crabbe and Goyle. In comparison, anyone would get delusions of adequecy. Ginger, who shall not query as to where Kneasy gets his reliable information. From mcschnoor at comcast.net Sun May 16 19:07:47 2004 From: mcschnoor at comcast.net (mcschnoor) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:07:47 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - Abuse and Oppression. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98519 > I think Harry's going to be a bit more demanding now on, though - he > no longer trusts that adults secrecy is for the best. In fact, I > seriously doubt he trusts anyone but himself now! > ... > Dumbledore didn't tell him about the prophecy, purposefully puts him > to the hands of his nasty relatives, and just about every adult is in > with putting him into the misery known as Dursleys or involved in > other conspiracy against him. (and besides, what magical protection > there may be, it does NOT protect Harry from Dursleys!) That's a really good point, and I think it really reflects on both the nature of the school system to not interfere and also the reality of Harry growing up. As children, we all tend to accept what our superiors say at face value, and especially with the Dursley's blatant disregard for any of his emotions or needs beyond the very basic, Harry would have just accepted their word as gospel truth. Still, it strikes me as quite odd that, under the confines of his emotionally and often physically abusive home life, we would end up with a well-rounded character such as the Harry we all know and love in books 1-4. Yes, many kids learn social skills in schools, and Harry went to some sort of primary school, but was taunted there as well. It is only in book 5 where Harry actually starts acting like a person dealing with severe post-traumatic stress syndrome, lashing out at others, going through anger and denial and all sorts of moods, and this is even before Snuffles snuffs it. Don't get me wrong, I love Hp and I love the characters, but Harry is just so good and so noble that it's a wonder, given his home life, that he doesn't end up more like Draco in the sense of family abuse and the repercussions thereof. > Oh yes, there's another reason why Harry doesn't ask questions: he > doesn't trust anyone enough to do so, and the one he trusted enough, > is dead (and if Sirius isn't truly dead and comes back, Harry's going > to doubt it IS Sirius!). Exactly. Sorry folks, but I bet that Sirius is dead for good. No spell can bring people back from the dead, and in terms of plot devices, Harry's big thing now is not learning self-reliance (He's got enough of that already) but learning to trust. That's not an easy task. From astrudschuck at yahoo.com Sun May 16 10:59:44 2004 From: astrudschuck at yahoo.com (astrud schuck) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 03:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville on the Quidditch team? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040516105944.43828.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98521 amanitamuscaria1 wrote: Philosopher's Stone, Through the Trapdoor, p192 UK paperback "... And Neville will play Quidditch for England before Hagrid lets Dumbledore down." Ron comments, just before Harry works out Hagrid was conned into telling the mysterious stranger how to get past Fluffy. Harry and Ron may have their differences on the team in the next books, but my money's on Neville - beater or chaser though? Astrud Schuck responds: Well, Neville has been clumsy all throughout his school days but his confidence is indeed building up ever since the D.A. ....so I believe its possible for him to be chaser in Quidditch. From astrudschuck at yahoo.com Sun May 16 11:09:44 2004 From: astrudschuck at yahoo.com (astrud schuck) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 04:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Victor Krum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040516110944.47603.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98526 snow15145 wrote: > Could Victor Krum be a male Veela and are Veela part bird? Well, JKR has never yet given any clues in the books that male veelas exists. It could be that Krum was just highly skilled in the air. And of course, one would resemble what he's good at. "astrud" From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Sun May 16 20:44:43 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 20:44:43 -0000 Subject: Neville on the Quidditch team? In-Reply-To: <20040516105944.43828.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98527 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, astrud schuck wrote: > amanitamuscaria1 wrote: > > Philosopher's Stone, Through the Trapdoor, p192 UK paperback > "... And Neville will play Quidditch for England before Hagrid lets > Dumbledore down." Ron comments, just before Harry works out Hagrid > was conned into telling the mysterious stranger how to get past > Fluffy. > Harry and Ron may have their differences on the team in the next > books, but my money's on Neville - beater or chaser though? > > Astrud Schuck responds: > > Well, Neville has been clumsy all throughout his school days but his confidence is indeed building up ever since the D.A. ....so I believe its possible for him to be chaser in Quidditch. AmanitaMuscaria again - Thinking about it further, there's that great catch Neville makes when Harry throws him the prophecy sphere in OoTP - maybe it's keeper or seeker after all? I could never work that out; he's been clumsy all the way through, then all of a sudden, with a broken nose (which affects your bifocal vision) he does a great catch without thinking about it. Hmmmm. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun May 16 21:19:02 2004 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 14:19:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Theories out of comision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2810205480.20040516141902@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98532 Saturday, May 15, 2004, 1:04:38 PM, silver_owl_01 wrote: s> - Harry will not be Minister of Magic by the end of book seven. I'm still not sure about this one -- She says "Seventeen is too young", but that doesn't rule out his becoming MoM in the planned "Postscript" chapter when we find out what happens to everyone *after* Hogwarts. s> Also, I personaly get the impresion that JKR doesn't appreciate s> comparisons with Star Wars very much. Can you blame her? -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun May 16 21:36:15 2004 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 14:36:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Transcript of "Very early page of PS" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040516202702.01e85700@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20040516202702.01e85700@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <1528991607.20040516143615@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98533 SPOILER SPACE... . . . . . . . . . . Interesting -- Thanks for taking the time and effort to decipher it -- But I'm not sure this passage has any bearing on Canon. I think maybe all it indicates is that in some unknown parallel universe Harry's parents were protecting the Stone for Dumbledore, rather than it residing in a vault of its own. -- Dave From elfundeb at comcast.net Sun May 16 21:35:29 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:35:29 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: What's On- and Off-Topic about JKR's Website Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98534 Greetings from Hexquarters! There's nothing like new material from JKR to spark excitement. We now have *two* discussions, one on this list and one on our sister list HPFGU-OTChatter. To avoid parallel discussions, and to be consistent with our posting rules, please observe the following: * If your post discusses the information on the site about the characters, the plot or any other information about the books themselves (including discarded scenes and backstories), please post it on this list. * If your post discusses how to use the website, access the flash features or the hidden clues, discuss your scrapbook, or anything else relating to the site or JKR rather than the HP books themselves, please post on OTC. If you have any questions about your post, please contact us at hpforgrownups-owner@ yahoogroups.com Thank you for your cooperation! Debbie Elf for the HPFGU list admin team From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun May 16 21:38:28 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:38:28 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mark_Evans_=96_the_next_theory_to_be_shot_down_by_JKR=3F?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98535 In JKR's new website: http://www.jkrowling.com/ if you click the F.A.Q (the paper clips), then click "about the books" (envelope at the right), then at a note half hidden to the left of the FAQ list, then on "F.A.Q. poll". You will get a poll for the next question to ask JKR (I don't think this poll is available on the text version of the site). As I type this, the leading question in the poll (47%) is: "What is the significance, if any, of Mark Evans?" This is not a chat. Here it is JKR herself who decides which questions to present. It is not likely she will submit a question only to refuse answering it, or waste a possible surprise in the book. This means she is probably going to shoot down the theory of Mark Evans being related to Lily, although she might give us a story about why she had used this name in the first place. Of course, we'll have to wait and see, but if you are Mark's fans, you should probably prepare yourself to be disappointed. More generally, it seems that one of JKR's objectives in the new site is to shoot down false theories that have gained too much momentum in the fan sites. There is also some wakeup call for H/H shippers who, while admitting there is enough evidence in canon that Ron fancies Hermione, still deny that there is any evidence for Hermione being attracted to Ron. For them JKR included the FAQ: "Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?" and JKR answers: "I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy." Like JKR, I find it hard to believe that some readers didn't work this out, but if any shippers out there still want to believe in H/H, I guess they still can. Neri From t.forch at mail.dk Sun May 16 21:59:42 2004 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:59:42 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[HPforGrownups]_Mark_Evans_=96_the_next_?= theory to be shot down by JKR? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040516235526.01ed5630@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 98536 At 21:38 16-05-04 +0000, nkafkafi wrote: >"What is the significance, if any, of Mark Evans?" > >This is not a chat. Here it is JKR herself who decides which >questions to present. It is not likely she will submit a question >only to refuse answering it, or waste a possible surprise in the >book. This means she is probably going to shoot down the theory of >Mark Evans being related to Lily, although she might give us a story >about why she had used this name in the first place. Of course, we'll >have to wait and see, but if you are Mark's fans, you should probably >prepare yourself to be disappointed. I had pretty much the same thought, though she might give us a short explanation of how he's Harry's fifth cousin, twice removed or something, and will have absolutely no influence on the plot. Whatever the answer, I agree entirely that we shouldn't expect /any/ of the questions in the poll to actually contain spoilers of any kind - that the question wouldn't be there if there was any kind of spoiler in the answer. >More generally, it seems that one of JKR's objectives in the new site >is to shoot down false theories that have gained too much momentum in >the fan sites. Something I can't cheer enough ;-) /Troels From SinfulSnape at aol.com Sun May 16 17:29:13 2004 From: SinfulSnape at aol.com (SinfulSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 13:29:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gum wrappers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98537 In a message dated 5/16/2004 11:53:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ekrbdg at msn.com writes: > Anyone reckon all those bubble gum wrappers on her desk are a clue > towards our favourite Neville theory ? She seems to be as keen on it > as the Longbottoms.. I'm confused! What do gum wrappers have to do with Neville and the Longbottoms? ~Rhonda~ ADMIN: If your response is about the Longbottoms and gum wrappers, you may answer Rhonda on this list. If you're commenting about how to navigate JKR's new site, go to Off-Topic Chatter http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-otchatter/ From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 16 21:58:33 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:58:33 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98538 Geoff: I thought I would like to join this thread because I am not convinced that those people who are calling Harry a dimwit or suggesting that he lacks curiosity are necessarily correct. Let us consider a possible scenario. On the Hogwarts Express, Hermione tells Harry that he features in three books: "Modern Magical History" (MMH), "The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts" and "Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century" (GWE). Now we do not have a blow-by-blow or minute-by-minute account of what Harry does each day so let us consider that, since we know that Hermione speaks very quickly, he probably didn't catch the names of all these books, so he re-checks the names of the books with her and goes on one occasion to the library to try to find the books. So, he finds "Modern Magical History": "The fate of He Who Must Not Be Named is still shrouded in mystery several years after the event. What is known is that he went to the home of James and Lily Potter on the night of Hallowe'en 1981 and killed them. It would seem that he then tried to kill their infant son Harry who was fifteen months old and that the curse rebounded onto him. It is still not known for certain whether He Who Must Not Be Named was killed as a result or, as some authorities consider, disembodied. Evidence has leaked out from some of the few witnesses who have immediate knowledge of the events that the child was left with a lightning-shaped scar on his forehead. Another area of doubt is the current whereabouts of Harry Potter. Rumours have been rife that Albus Dumbledore, the Headmaster of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry was involved in action to remove Harry from the scene and place him with relatives, believed to be Muggles. The identity of these folk and their place of residence continues to be one of the great unknowns of this extraordinary period of modern Wizarding history." (MMH "The Downfall of You-Know-Who" p.865 Wizarding Press 6th edition 1990) Hmmm. Well, he knows all that already. OK, let's try "Great Wizarding Events"; "Potter, Harry. Born 31/07/80, only child of James and Lily Potter (q.v.). On 31/10/81, You-Know-Who attacked Harry Potter's family killing his parents at their home at Godric's Hollow. You-Know-Who directed an curse, probably Avadra Kedavra at the child which rebounded, either killing or disembodying him. The whereabouts of the boy have been kept secret since the event; theories are that he is with family relatives." (GWE "Index of Wizarding Personalities" p.750 Wizarding Press 1988 edition) Well, that doesn't get him much further does it? OK. Should he ask someone? Like whom? Ron and Hermione are no use. Ron knows about the scar and that's about all. I think we've probably exhausted Hermione as a source. He's learnt to avoid bothering Vernon and Petunia so that he doesn't get his ears boxed or is locked in his cupboard. Albus Dumbledore? Rather a daunting figure, despite the conversations he has from time to time. Also, rather difficult on the way to a Potions lesson to stop the Headmaster if he sees him coming by and saying "Excuse me, Professor, can you tell me about my parents?" At the end of PS or COS, the thought of raising this doesn't occur ? he's either nearly been killed by Quirrell or emerged bloody but fairly unbowed from a fight with a Basilisk. It's probably difficult to access DD; Harry doesn't even know where his office is until halfway through COS. Snape? Man, you can-not be serious. Professor McGonagall? Again, rather formidable and acid-tongued on occasions. Can he psych himself up to speak to her? And, again, how much does she know? She knew the Potters when they were at Hogwarts certainly and she was around on the evening of the Godric's Hollow disaster. But beyond that? Hagrid? Well . He is certainly approachable but what does he know that Harry hasn't already gleaned from the library visit? He obviously knew James and Lily but very closely? He did gather the photographs together (at Dumbledore's behest) to give to Harry at the end of PS. Whatever may have been said, Harry's options on who to approach are quite limited. Perhaps he has missed opportunities, particularly with Dumbledore but, as I pointed out earlier, most of these are at times of considerable stress. So, is he dim? I don't think so. I think he is nervous of approaching people and how to broach the subject. I can empathise with this. I have always been worried about raising subjects which might be difficult with people. One of the things I learned from teacher training was the ability to be a little more assertive but I can still see Harry's problems clearly. PS On the subject of my paternal grandfather. My father was very reticent about his family because of the estrangement; I first learned I possessed an aunt and uncle and seven first cousins on his side when I was 16. However, although I had some information about my grandfather, I didn't find out a lot until I was 60 when I started digging around in the Family Record centre on my occasional visits to London because some of my family wanted to have family trees sorted out. It wasn't that I lacked curiosity, it was just finding the time to spend on what can often be a long and tedious business. From dicentra at xmission.com Sun May 16 22:50:48 2004 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 22:50:48 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Fate of the Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98541 Hi folks! All posts that deal exclusively with how to navigate JKR's new site have been deleted from this list and posted on OTC. Posts 98447-98531 are in OTC message 22214. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-otchatter/message/22214 All other navigation-only posts will be summarily deleted and posted later on OTC, so you might as well save yourself some time and post there first. :D --Dicey Elf Join HPfGU Off Topic Chatter if you haven't already! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-otchatter From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun May 16 22:59:52 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 22:59:52 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98542 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > PS On the subject of my paternal grandfather. My father was very > reticent about his family because of the estrangement; I first > learned I possessed an aunt and uncle and seven first cousins on his > side when I was 16. However, although I had some information about my > grandfather, I didn't find out a lot until I was 60 when I started > digging around in the Family Record centre on my occasional visits to > London because some of my family wanted to have family trees sorted > out. It wasn't that I lacked curiosity, it was just finding the time > to spend on what can often be a long and tedious business. I quite sympathize - my family antecedents are lost in the past, probably never to be discovered, at least by me. But Harry isn't quite in the position of someone like me, who'd like to know about my maternal great-grandfather who must have lived and died somewhere in Yugoslavia, and whose traces, if any, were probably obliterated by about 4 wars passing through the area. If you discovered that your grandfather was actually, oh, Winston Churchill, I doubt you'd find such insurmountable problems in finding out SOME information about him. Harry is FAMOUS, and so were his parents, if only by association. Maybe no single person would give him an authoritative, complete picture, but if he did no more than ask each person to tell him THEIR version of the events, he'd probably be able to piece together most of it, and have a decent idea of what points needed more examination. I agree with those who've said that Harry's blank-slate existence is a plot device. Personally, I think it's outlived its usefulness, but it's up to JKR to decide whether she wants to discard it. Perhaps everything that exists in the HP world has a reason, but it's not necessarily the case that it has to be a GOOD reason, or one that would make sense in any other setting. Wanda From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun May 16 23:04:34 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:04:34 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98543 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Well, JKR's own site doesn't hold out much hope for all those > desperately trying to find the 'good Slytherin', what with: > > ...edited... > > -Theodore Nott, a clever loner, Malfoy's equal socially, and > superior intellectually who sees no need to join gangs. Sounds a bit > like a younger Snape, and not very likely to join the DA either. > > ...edited... > > Carolyn bboy_mn: Exactly how does this new information about Theodore Nott cancel out or diminish the possibility of a 'Good Slytherin'. In my view, the new information re-enforces the likelihood that T. Nott is indeed the Good Slytherin. Theodore Nott has never been part of Draco's crowd. He is clearly far too intelligent and independant to be one of Draco's 'hanger ons'. He doesn't seem like someone to be swayed by Death Eater dogma and rhetoric. He strikes me, from the limited information we have, as being someone who is capable of independant thinking, and able to make up his own mind. I have always thought that any intelligent person in the wizard world, that is, any person not blinded by lust for power and greed, should be able to see that Voldemort, while rich and powerful, would be a totally incompetent leader of the wizard world. Regimes like this always follow the same path, they sieze power with power, then maintain their hold on that power by ever more escalating oppressive applications of power until their world becomes completely disfunctional. With Voldemort as ruler, I see commerce and economy in chaos and ruin, and that does not bode well for an ambitious young Slytherin who plans on getting rich. So, I can see Theodore Nott joining the DA Club. Not because he is a great Harry or Dumbledore supporter, but because he can see the chaos that is coming and wants to be able to defend himself. In addition, he turns away from, or does not openly support, nor openly defy, Voldemort. In the long run, and more so, in the back ground, he works against the Death Eaters because he know that Dumbledore winning works to his best advantage. It's in Dumbledore's world that real long lasting fortunes and economic power are to be had. Ok, admittedly, I've filled in the blanks with a lot of speculation, but my point is that I see nothing in this new information that excludes Theodore Nott from being the Good, or at least, an OK Slytherin. For me personally, I now lean more toward T.Nott than I did before. Previously, my money was on Blaize Zabini. In the book, we only see a few Slytherins who seem truly loyal to Draco, the rest seem content to mind their own business, although, they still laugh at Draco's jokes. But then, knowing Draco and his father as they do, while they may not cultivate a friendship, they certainly would go out of their way not to get on his bad side. You don't need Draco for a friend, but more so, you REALLY REALLY don't want him as an enemy. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun May 16 23:05:16 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:05:16 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Well, JKR's own site doesn't hold out much hope for all those > desperately trying to find the 'good Slytherin', what with: > > ...edited... > > -Theodore Nott, a clever loner, Malfoy's equal socially, and > superior intellectually who sees no need to join gangs. Sounds a bit > like a younger Snape, and not very likely to join the DA either. > > ...edited... > > Carolyn bboy_mn: Exactly how does this new information about Theodore Nott cancel out or diminish the possibility of a 'Good Slytherin'. In my view, the new information re-enforces the likelihood that T. Nott is indeed the Good Slytherin. Theodore Nott has never been part of Draco's crowd. He is clearly far too intelligent and independant to be one of Draco's 'hanger ons'. He doesn't seem like someone to be swayed by Death Eater dogma and rhetoric. He strikes me, from the limited information we have, as being someone who is capable of independant thinking, and able to make up his own mind. I have always thought that any intelligent person in the wizard world, that is, any person not blinded by lust for power and greed, should be able to see that Voldemort, while rich and powerful, would be a totally incompetent leader of the wizard world. Regimes like this always follow the same path, they sieze power with power, then maintain their hold on that power by ever more escalating oppressive applications of power until their world becomes completely disfunctional. With Voldemort as ruler, I see commerce and economy in chaos and ruin, and that does not bode well for an ambitious young Slytherin who plans on getting rich. So, I can see Theodore Nott joining the DA Club. Not because he is a great Harry or Dumbledore supporter, but because he can see the chaos that is coming and wants to be able to defend himself. In addition, he turns away from, or does not openly support, nor openly defy, Voldemort. In the long run, and more so, in the back ground, he works against the Death Eaters because he know that Dumbledore winning works to his best advantage. It's in Dumbledore's world that real long lasting fortunes and economic power are to be had. Ok, admittedly, I've filled in the blanks with a lot of speculation, but my point is that I see nothing in this new information that excludes Theodore Nott from being the Good, or at least, an OK Slytherin. For me personally, I now lean more toward T.Nott than I did before. Previously, my money was on Blaize Zabini. In the book, we only see a few Slytherins who seem truly loyal to Draco, the rest seem content to mind their own business, although, they still laugh at Draco's jokes. But then, knowing Draco and his father as they do, while they may not cultivate a friendship, they certainly would go out of their way not to get on his bad side. You don't need Draco for a friend, but more so, you REALLY REALLY don't want him as an enemy. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 16 23:08:15 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:08:15 -0000 Subject: Longbottom gum wrappers / Harry as Child Abuse Survivor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98545 There are too many deleted posts on this list today; it interferes with reading posts on the website. Rhonda wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/98537 : << I'm confused! What do gum wrappers have to do with Neville and the Longbottoms? >> If you didn't read OoP yet, this is a spoiler: our three protagonists see Neville visiting his parents in the Severe Spell Damage ward at St Mungo's. His mother, who supposedly can't even recognize him, gives him a gum wrapper (Drooble's Best Blowing Gum) and Gran tells him to throw it away, he's got enough of those to wallpaper his room already, but he puts it in his pocket instead. There is widespread belief that the gum wrappers are not just a pathetic touch, but a Clue as to how to cure Neville's parents. MC Schnoor wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/98519 : << Still, it strikes me as quite odd that, under the confines of his emotionally and often physically abusive home life, we would end up with a well-rounded character such as the Harry we all know and love in books 1-4. >> Thanks for the opportunity to trot out one of my favorite hobby- horses, why Harry didn't grow up to be a resent-filled monster like Tom Marvolo Riddle or completely spineless; despite "Don't ask questions -- that was the first rule for a quiet life with the Dursleys," he stands up to them even before he ever heard of wizards. Examples: "You could just leave me here," Harry put in hopefully (he'd be able to watch what he wanted on television for a change and maybe even have a go on Dudley's computer). "I had a dream about a motorcycle," said Harry, remembering suddenly. "It was flying." The tub was full of what looked like dirty rags swimming in gray water. "What's this?" he asked Aunt Petunia. Her lips tightened as they always did if he dared to ask a question. "Your new school uniform," she said. Harry looked in the bowl again. "Oh," he said, "I didn't realize it had to be so wet." "Get the mail, Dudley," said Uncle Vernon from behind his paper. "Make Harry get it." "Get the mail, Harry." "Make Dudley get it." My explanation: I think Lily was able, with her magic, to put an image of herself in her baby's mind, that would be like an 'imaginary mum' (by analogy with 'imaginary friend') who would cuddle Harry and tell him that he's a good kid who doesn't deserve Dursley abuse and tell him about how decent people behave, thus being that one caring adult ("example of goodness" in previous paragraph) said to be necessary to even a 'resilient' child's survival of serious abuse... I kind of think Lily used her last magic to put this image in his head intentionally, instead of using her last magic in one last attempt to escape Voldemort. That is the heroic self-sacrifce that canon credits her, accepting her own death because it was more important to her to give this protection (from abusive Dursleys) of her love. I don't know why she would do that if she really believed that he would be dead seconds after she was, so I am left sympathetic to the theories that Harry survived AK because of some magic that had been done on him (presumably by Lily) or that he had been born with. When Harry resisted the Imperius Curse, the Curse's Moody-voice in his head told him to jump up on the desk, and "another voice had awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid to do, really, said the voice." I believe that that other voice is what's left of the image-Lily after all these years; she doesn't appear often, she appears as Harry's voice instead of her own, but she still is caring for Harry -- and still has free will. In addition, so far we've always seen Harry wondering and trying to find out about his father, and not about his mother. Some say that's a plot device because JKR is saving some big surprise about Lily, and some say it's normal because Harry is 11 to 14 so far, puberty and adolescence, and much more concerned about a male image to identify with. But *I* say that he doesn't search so much for Lily because, unknown to himself, he already has her with him. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 16 23:17:03 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:17:03 -0000 Subject: Gum wrappers (on topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98546 Rhonda wrote: > > I'm confused! What do gum wrappers have to do with Neville and the > Longbottoms? > > ~Rhonda~ > Potioncat: Neville's mom has given him gum wrappers every time he visits. Many of wonder if she is trying in her own confused way to communicate something important to him. You can read about it in one of the chapters about St. Mungos I think it is "Christmas on the Closed Ward." Apparantly an anagram of the name of the gum, spells a warning about St Mungoes, but that isn't in the book. Potioncat From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 16 23:26:03 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:26:03 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: << I have always thought that any intelligent person in the wizard world, that is, any person not blinded by lust for power and greed, should be able to see that Voldemort, while rich and powerful, would be a totally incompetent leader of the wizard world. Regimes like this always follow the same path, they sieze power with power, then maintain their hold on that power by ever more escalating oppressive applications of power until their world becomes completely dysfunctional. With Voldemort as ruler, I see commerce and economy in chaos and ruin, and that does not bode well for an ambitious young Slytherin who plans on getting rich. >> I feel certain that Lucius Malfoy is certain that, once Voldemort has fronted a movement to overthrow the wizarding government, Lucius Malfoy will replace Voldemort as ruler, and rule much better for commerce and economy. I imagine that Malfoy's associates share this opinion. I imagine that there are other Death Eaters who expect that themselves or their friends will be the new ruler that replaces Voldemort. How Malfoy expects to replace Voldemort: Step 1, flatter and charm him into doing what Malfoy wants instead of what Voldemort wants. Step 2, weaken Voldemort so that he secretly stays inside a luxurious tomb attended by skilled nurses, then give commands in Voldemort's name. Step3, kill or imprison Voldemort and rule in his own name. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 16 23:29:59 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:29:59 -0000 Subject: Theories out of comision In-Reply-To: <2810205480.20040516141902@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > > Saturday, May 15, 2004, 1:04:38 PM, silver_owl_01 wrote previously : > > s> - Harry will not be Minister of Magic by the end of book seven. > > I'm still not sure about this one -- She says "Seventeen is too > young", but that doesn't rule out his becoming MoM in the planned > "Postscript" chapter when we find out what happens to everyone > *after* Hogwarts. I am not sure about this one either. In fact I also thought that this answer could be a hint about Harry's becoming a Minister of Magic much later in his life. I was even more excited that she did not answer with her usual : "If he survives..." Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 17 00:43:33 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 00:43:33 -0000 Subject: Small Thing in COS - Malfoy the Ripper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98549 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" wrote: > ebennet68 > Did anyone notice in the scene in Flourish and Blotts where > Draco Malfoy tears a page out of a book before he goes down > the stairs to have a confrontation with Harry? I have > wondered for a while if there is some connection. > > samnanya > Ahh funny you should mention it....... I always thought > it was the last page of the first Artemis Fowl book -- > compare the cover design. > Thought it was intended as a cute "in joke" not related > to movie or anything else. > Any other opinions ? Potioncat: I thought I read somewhere that Koves or Columbus had put in some things to show how bad Malfoy is. Such as the scnene where he steals a Christmas present in CoS. Neither of those are in the book. From jferer at yahoo.com Mon May 17 02:18:36 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 02:18:36 -0000 Subject: Theories out of comision In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook > wrote: > > > > Saturday, May 15, 2004, 1:04:38 PM, silver_owl_01 wrote previously : > > > > s> - Harry will not be Minister of Magic by the end of book seven. > > > > I'm still not sure about this one -- She says "Seventeen is too > > young", but that doesn't rule out his becoming MoM in the planned > > "Postscript" chapter when we find out what happens to everyone > > *after* Hogwarts. > > > I am not sure about this one either. In fact I also thought that this > answer could be a hint about Harry's becoming a Minister of Magic > much later in his life. > > I was even more excited that she did not answer with her usual : "If > he survives..." Harry's fate (if her survives) has always been a great topic to wonder about, but MoM? It never seemed to me he'd like it. He's developing leadership qualities very well and he's popular, but he's not exactly a detail guy, is he? MoM would be more Hermione's cup of tea, I'd think. My favorite idea of Harry's future has been reportedly shot down by JKR, so I have no idea what he'll do. Jim From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 17 02:23:54 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 02:23:54 -0000 Subject: Small Thing in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98551 ebennet68: > > Did anyone notice in the scene in Flourish and Blotts where > > Draco Malfoy tears a page out of a book before he goes down the > > stairs to have a confrontation with Harry? I have wondered for a > > while if there is some connection. Geoff: > That scene in the DVD has left me curious on several occasions; > it's not mentioned in the book and nothing appears to come of it > in the film. Maybe there is a link. If so, how the heck did > Hermione get hold of the page if it is the one Draco tore out? > (Though I did get an odd impression that it was the first page he > ripped out and wondered if it was the signed bit from one of GL's > books). SSSusan: Hmmmmm. Maybe I just don't think hard enough [hey--stop snickering, everyone!], but I took that little movie scene as just a quick way of showing what a pr*ck Draco is. Siriusly Snapey Susan From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 02:30:37 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gum wrappers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040517023037.10374.qmail@web50003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98552 Carolyn: Yes, she did, but hey..that's an angle we didn't think of. Maybe the Longbottom's are trying to quit smoking as well ! My reply: OKay I'm going way off the deep end on this one but, I think it could be sort of a symbol of more than just her quitting smoking. She quit so that she could live longer, in a way she quit to save her life. Perhaps the gum wrappers are sending Neville a message, they are either a clue into how to save his life or a clue to help save their lives. Or rather get there lives back. Gee, how did I come up with that? ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 02:38:40 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jk on Hermione's Loves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040517023840.81562.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98553 "I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy." Like JKR, I find it hard to believe that some readers didn't work this out, but if any shippers out there still want to believe in H/H, I guess they still can. Neri My reply: Well, you know I actually see Hermione going back and forth. I'm sorry but she was not at all upset that Cho was gone, I think for a time she was actually jealous of Cho and Harry but that's just me. However, with that said I think while the question was intended to inlicit a response that indicates a certain ship I don't think that JKR really was answering it that way. I think the obvious answer to the question of who Hermione loves is.....both Harry and Ron. It's true..she loves them both. We can argue about what way but honestly it isn't that obvious with regards to Hermione/Ron. If she wanted to make it obvious she would have done so....so I think the clearest meaning of this answer is that of course Hermione loves them both. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 02:28:03 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Not so ESE:Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040517022803.78526.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98554 Samnanya Example - Yeah I know many HP fans feel that Lupin is a good guy, but that doesnt mean that someone can't present an interesting argument or four supported by canon as to how he can indeed be evil. The theory is not IMPOSSIBLE, just not popular, and i would LOVE for someone to tear it apart because i cant read right, or whatever, because I really do like Lupin, just dont necessarily trust his motives. Samnanya animallover_11: I have been putting alot of thought into the whole ESE:Lupin and I just can't buy into that. I don't think that he has any alterior motives in his actions. I have noticed that some are very quick with the support for him being Evil. (infact i am very impressed by the thought and determination of some people in this theory!!) The only thing I have to back up my feelings about Lupin is Crookshanks. He is part Kneazle (which I have since found out are pretty good character judges (somewhere in Fantastic Beast)) and he seemed to be right on the money for Peter/Scabbers. If he was able to pick up the not so nice aspects of Peter he should have been able to with Lupin as well. Also he was very fond of Sirius which to me would indicate that Sirius is also on the up and up. I do not remember if Crookshanks had any reaction to Snape in the Shreiking Shake or not but this could shed some light onto Snapes true character. It is not like JKR to give information about a character that could nto be used to help figure out theories and ideas. So these are just some of the thoughts I have. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dicentra at xmission.com Mon May 17 03:06:21 2004 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 03:06:21 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Re: Small Thing in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98555 Hey folks! Yet Another ADMIN here! We must ask that you terminate the thread on things seen in CoS. Discussion of the movie elements -- the page Draco ripped out in CoS, for example -- must take place on the Movie list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-movie/ That's where you'll need to discuss PoA when it comes out, BTW. Only a few weeks left! --Dicey Elf From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Mon May 17 03:09:21 2004 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 03:09:21 -0000 Subject: Jk on Hermione's Loves In-Reply-To: <20040517023840.81562.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Miss Melanie wrote: > "I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, > but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, > which I enjoy." > > Like JKR, I find it hard to believe that some readers didn't work > this out, but if any shippers out there still want to believe in H/H, > I guess they still can. > > Neri This is exactly the type of response JKR was hoping to illicit from the fandom (IMO). Being a firm believer in H/Hr, I might have said exactly the same thing in the opposite direction and wondered why other's didn't see what I did... but... I think Melanie has a point: > I think the obvious answer to the question of who Hermione loves is.....both Harry and Ron. It's true..she loves them both. We can argue about what way but honestly it isn't that obvious with regards to Hermione/Ron. If she wanted to make it obvious she would have done so....so I think the clearest meaning of this answer is that of course Hermione loves them both. I agree Melanie. She just loves to keep us guessing. If the answer *was* so clear cut, the shipping debate would have been won ages ago. Sienna From elfundeb at comcast.net Mon May 17 03:14:13 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 03:14:13 -0000 Subject: Random Weasley Fact Kills Another Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98557 Sadly, I have to report that I believe the "Seventh son of the Seventh Son" theory (the one that would make Ron a seer) is most likely dead. Alas, JKR reports that Arthur had only three brothers. Unless there were three more dead Weasley brothers, I think that theory may be unsalvageable. The Missing Weasley Child, while still alive, has lost a bit of canon now that Molly's terror at the Quidditch World Cup events can be explained by the fact that she's a Prewett. Too bad, as I always liked my Imperius!Arthur with an extra dose of filicide. On the other hand, JKR acknowledged the relationship between the Weasleys' name and weasels, waxing eloquent about her fondness for the "maligned" animal. This simply confirms that she's up to date on her basilisk legends, which identify the weasel as the basilisk's one enemy. According to legend, the weasel does not flinch from conflict with the basilisk, and when bitten, the weasel retires only temporarily, then returns with renewed strength to kill the basilisk. Definitely no accident that Arthur was attacked by a snake. She also states that the notion that redheads are unlucky is "nonsense". So I think there's a pretty good chance that Arthur will become Minister of Magic after he finally defeats Lucius, his mortal enemy. Debbie who must confess that she could only find one of the missing clues until she enlisted her computer-savvy children to help From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon May 17 03:50:01 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 03:50:01 -0000 Subject: Jk on Hermione's Loves In-Reply-To: <20040517023840.81562.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98559 Melanie wrote: However, with that said I think while the question was intended to inlicit a response that indicates a certain ship I don't think that JKR really was answering it that way. I think the obvious answer to the question of who Hermione loves is.....both Harry and Ron. It's true..she loves them both. We can argue about what way but honestly it isn't that obvious with regards to Hermione/Ron. If she wanted to make it obvious she would have done so....so I think the clearest meaning of this answer is that of course Hermione loves them both. vmonte responds: I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that the screen writer was given permission by JKR to play up the attraction between Ron and Hermione. vmonte From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 17 03:59:54 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 03:59:54 -0000 Subject: Not so ESE:Lupin In-Reply-To: <20040517022803.78526.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98561 > > animallover_11: > > I have been putting alot of thought into the whole ESE:Lupin and I just can't buy into that. I don't think that he has any alterior motives in his actions. I have noticed that some are very quick with the support for him being Evil. (infact i am very impressed by the thought and determination of some people in this theory!!) The only thing I have to back up my feelings about Lupin is Crookshanks. He is part Kneazle (which I have since found out are pretty good character judges (somewhere in Fantastic Beast)) and he seemed to be right on the money for Peter/Scabbers. > > If he was able to pick up the not so nice aspects of Peter he should have been able to with Lupin as well. < Trouble is, Crookshanks doesn't react to Draco, Crabbe or Goyle, either. (PoA ch 5) It seems to me he doesn't have the powers of a full Kneazle, but something more like Lord Thingy's ability to know when someone is lying. But Lord Thingy can be fooled, as we are told, by shutting down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie. I suspect Lupin is doing this, but of course I can't prove it. All I can do is point out that many of the things he says sound suspiciously equivocal--much like Harry's letter to Sirius in OOP "she's nearly as nice as your mum." [paraphrasing] One of the things Lupin says that doesn't sound equivocal is that he's not much of a potion-maker, so for whatever comfort it's worth, I don't think ESE!Lupin was slipping Confusing and Befuddlement draughts to Sirius, as someone wondered in another post. I think that clue is what I call an "odd fish". It's a red herring in OOP but may be a genuine clue in future books. Kind of like all the death omens in PoA. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 04:05:25 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 04:05:25 -0000 Subject: No more "Voldie" nickname? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98562 OK, this is just a quick question, but I am really beginning to question myself here. I really really hope that I do not sound condescending, because this is truly not my intention, but I need to hear it from somebody else. :o) When JKR wrote on her website that practice of calling Voldemort "Voldie" must stop and Voldie will not be a sweetheart even with therapy, I was absolutely positive that she was teasing us, laughing with us. I was 100% sure. Now, after reading some other lists, I am not so sure anymore. It never even came to me to think that Rowling will seriously order her fans around. :o) Please, please somebody agree with me? Anybody? :o) Alla From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon May 17 04:13:41 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 04:13:41 -0000 Subject: No more "Voldie" nickname? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98563 Alla wrote: When JKR wrote on her website that practice of calling Voldemort "Voldie" must stop and Voldie will not be a sweetheart even with therapy, I was absolutely positive that she was teasing us, laughing with us. I was 100% sure. Now, after reading some other lists, I am not so sure anymore. It never even came to me to think that Rowling will seriously order her fans around. :o) Please, please somebody agree with me? Anybody? :o) vmonte responds: I don't think JKR is ordering her fans around. I think what she is trying to say is that Voldemort is a disgusting human being and should not be given a cute cuddly nickname. It would be like giving Hitler a cute nickname. vmonte From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 04:19:23 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 04:19:23 -0000 Subject: No more "Voldie" nickname? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98564 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > me previously: > > When JKR wrote on her website that practice of calling > Voldemort "Voldie" must stop and Voldie will not be a sweetheart even > with therapy, I was absolutely positive that she was teasing us, > laughing with us. I was 100% sure. Now, after reading some other > lists, I am not so sure anymore. > > It never even came to me to think that Rowling will seriously order > her fans around. :o) Please, please somebody agree with me? > Anybody? :o) > > > vmonte responds: > > I don't think JKR is ordering her fans around. I think what she is > trying to say is that Voldemort is a disgusting human being and > should not be given a cute cuddly nickname. It would be like giving > Hitler a cute nickname. > > vmonte Oh, but as someone who often uses this nickname, I don't use it because it is cute, but I guess to emphasize that Voldie is not all powerful and unstoppable. You know, kind of emphasizing my very low opinion of him. :o) Alla From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Mon May 17 04:30:47 2004 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 00:30:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No more "Voldie" nickname? Message-ID: <15c.34b1a74b.2dd999f7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98565 Alla: > >When JKR wrote on her website that practice of calling >Voldemort "Voldie" must stop and Voldie will not be a sweetheart even >with therapy, I was absolutely positive that she was teasing us, >laughing with us. I was 100% sure. Now, after reading some other >lists, I am not so sure anymore. > >It never even came to me to think that Rowling will seriously order >her fans around. :o) Please, please somebody agree with me? >Anybody? :o) > > >vmonte responds: > >I don't think JKR is ordering her fans around. I think what she is >trying to say is that Voldemort is a disgusting human being and >should not be given a cute cuddly nickname. It would be like giving >Hitler a cute nickname. > >vmonte Alla: > Oh, but as someone who often uses this nickname, I don't use it > because it is cute, but I guess to emphasize that Voldie is not all > powerful and unstoppable. You know, kind of emphasizing my very low > opinion of him. :o) > > Alla Cassie: Maybe we're just too scared to say The Name now and "Voldie" is just part of the transition period. I happen to think "Lord Thingy" is much cuter, btw. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From toptopera at yahoo.com.br Mon May 17 03:29:32 2004 From: toptopera at yahoo.com.br (toptopera) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 03:29:32 -0000 Subject: Neville on the Quidditch team? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98568 > AmanitaMuscaria again - Thinking about it further, there's that great > catch Neville makes when Harry throws him the prophecy sphere in > OoTP - maybe it's keeper or seeker after all? I could never work that > out; he's been clumsy all the way through, then all of a sudden, with > a broken nose (which affects your bifocal vision) he does a great > catch without thinking about it. > Hmmmm. That's the key to Neville: thinking about it. It's there, in OoTp, in the DA, how much Neville improved just because his confidence was growing. And insecurity comes from thinking about things too much (personal experience). He may be quite a nice player, then, if he loses his shame (but then, he may be even worse than Ron on being taunted). "toptopera" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 05:45:54 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 05:45:54 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98569 Okay, if Snape's not ESE, then why did he stop teaching Harry > > Occlumancy? Considering all the posts regarding respect and the > > military, he disobeyed a direct order from DD. Furthermore, > > regardless of whether Snape knew LV's plans regarding Harry and > > merging his thoughts with Harry's, one of the people Snape hates > > the most conveniently gets killed because Harry didn't block out > > LV. If Snape had continued to teach Harry, then Sirius wouldn't > > have gotten killed because the DA wouldn't have known to go to the > > DoM. > > Susan (who apologizes sincerely to all you out there who love > > Snape ;-) > > > Another Susan (Siriusly Snapey) replies: > Well, I don't love Snape, and I don't always "apologize" for him, > but I do find him fascinating, intriguing, mysterious--the most > enjoyable adult character to read about. > > I also don't believe he's ESE. > > Then why did he stop teaching Harry Occlumency? I can think of a > number of reasons. First, Snape, like many of us, is a flawed > human. He possesses skill and talent and a great snarky wit. But > he is nowhere near perfect. [I've argued ad nauseum, for instance, > that *good* teachers who are concerned about particular pupils > learning, assess their effectiveness, and Snape doesn't.] But I > believe Snape stopped teaching Harry Occlumency because he was > LIVID, because he felt Harry was not trying and therefore not > learning, and perhaps because it was painful to have to go through > the process with Harry Potter. > > Could he have successfully taught Draco Malfoy? Probably. But > Draco would have been willing, Draco wouldn't have been filled with > rage just looking at his teacher, Snape wouldn't have been filled > with loathing just in looking at his pupil. There was too much > ANGST in the setting, and I think Snape knew that it wasn't working > **and** couldn't get over how p*ssed he was that Harry looked into > the penseive. > > I disagree, btw, that continuing to teach Harry would have prevented > Sirius' death. Given that DD wasn't around to supervise and step in, > I think the lack of progress would have continued. No, I actually > fault Snape more for not providing more *explanation* at the > beginning and for riling Harry up instead of helping him calm down > in those first couple of lessons than I do for his quitting when he > did. > > He disobeyed a direct order from Dumbledore, yes. THAT part > surprises me. But I think flawed Snape just couldn't take it any > more. I would love to have heard DD's conversation w/ Snape about > that insubordination, but alas, JKR didn't make us privy to it. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Just to add two more points to what SSS said: Snape told Dumbledore what had happened, explaining exactly why he had stopped the occlumency lessons, as we know from Dumbledore's long conversation with Harry at the end of OoP. If Dumbledore had given him a direct order at that point--you *will* resume occlumency lessons--Snape would have done so. But Dumbledore evidently agreed with Snape that the lessons weren't working and were perhaps doing more harm than good. Also, Snape not only informed the Order what was happening with Harry, he tried to prevent Sirius Black from going to the MoM. It was Sirius's own decision, and no fault of Snape's, that he went there, and it was his own taunt of Bellatrix that (apparently) caused her to cast the spell that threw him through the veil. His death is in no way Snape's fault--or Dumbledore's. Carol, who thinks that perhaps animosity against Snape and affection for Sirius are getting in the way of Susan's (not SSS's) reading of the events at the end of OoP From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 17 06:44:36 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 06:44:36 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Re: Small Thing in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98570 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis" wrote: Dicey Elf: > Hey folks! > > Yet Another ADMIN here! > > We must ask that you terminate the thread on things seen in CoS. > Discussion of the movie elements -- the page Draco ripped out in CoS, > for example -- must take place on the Movie list. Geoff: Just remember however, that this link arose from the fact that Hermione had a torn out page in her hand which IS in the book...... There is still room to speculate how and where she got hold of it. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 17 06:55:42 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 06:55:42 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: Wanda: > If you discovered that > your grandfather was actually, oh, Winston Churchill, I doubt you'd > find such insurmountable problems in finding out SOME information > about him. Harry is FAMOUS, and so were his parents, if only by > association. Maybe no single person would give him an > authoritative, complete picture, but if he did no more than ask each > person to tell him THEIR version of the events, he'd probably be > able to piece together most of it, and have a decent idea of what > points needed more examination. Geoff: Depends on how you define "famous". Harry is famous but, as I tried to bring out in my post, what does the average member of Wizarding society /know/ about him other than he is the only known survivor of an attack by Voldemort? Why were James and Lily famous? I could, by way of exmaple, name UK politicians who were famous in recent years - Michael Heseltine, David Steel, John Smith, High Gaitskell, Rab Butler - just to list a handful. Getting more information about their private lives and upbringing - certainly in some of these cases - would not be the easiest of tasks, especially if faced with the facilities similar to that of the Hogwarts library, more geared to educational research than biographical. From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon May 17 10:34:55 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:34:55 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" bboy_mn: Exactly how does this new information about Theodore Nott cancel out or diminish the possibility of a 'Good Slytherin'. In my view, the new information re-enforces the likelihood that T. Nott is indeed the Good Slytherin. Carolyn: Well, in the best tradition of HPfGU responses, your snipping removed further supporting evidence on the true nature of the Slytherin character. I wrote about Mafalda, the dropped Weasley cousin, that she was going to be 'a nasty little witch in Slytherin, clever, but also nosy, eavesdropping and liking to impress.' Apparently she was going to be greatly disliked by the Weasley family, who were going to have her dumped on them by their muggle relatives. This little charmer sounded spot on for the house we love to hate, although posing yet another dilemma for Snape. A true Slytherin by nature, but regrettably not a pureblood *and* connected to the Weasleys. Would have been fun to see what he did with that, but alas.. bboy_mn: Theodore Nott has never been part of Draco's crowd. He is clearly far too intelligent and independant to be one of Draco's 'hanger ons'. He doesn't seem like someone to be swayed by Death Eater dogma and rhetoric. He strikes me, from the limited information we have, as being someone who is capable of independant thinking, and able to make up his own mind. Carolyn: Whoa! hang on there. As you say, we have very little information about him, in fact really only this new snippet on JKR's new website. She says Theodore and Draco discuss what the DEs think of Dumbledore, whilst at the Malfoy manor. She also says Theodore is Malfoy's social equal, and more intelligent (which isn't difficult). This does not mean he repudiates his own father's views, or those of the DEs in general. If anything, because he's a clever Slytherin, he is liable to be even more effective in thinking of ways of fighting Dumbledore - and probably won't share them with Draco. bboy_mn: I have always thought that any intelligent person in the wizard world, that is, any person not blinded by lust for power and greed, should be able to see that Voldemort, while rich and powerful, would be a totally incompetent leader of the wizard world. (snip) With Voldemort as ruler, I see commerce and economy in chaos and ruin, and that does not bode well for an ambitious young Slytherin who plans on getting rich. Carolyn: Regrettably, you are imposing your own thoughts and wishes here. Even in the current WW, with Voldie supposedly in exile, a corrupt and silly MoM flourishes, which routinely gags the press, holds kangaroo courts and plays fast and loose with the education system. Intelligent people in the WW are apparently going along with this. Commerce and the economy currently exclude the participation of non- and part-humans, and a popular route to power is via landed estates and/or toadying for political advancement (*ahem*, Percy). Voldemort would undoubtedly reinforce many of these dubious practices, but Theodore Nott, as part of a pureblood elite and the intelligent son of a DE is in a better position than most to survive in such conditions. He would have no interest in a peasants revolution. bboy_mn: So, I can see Theodore Nott joining the DA Club. Not because he is a great Harry or Dumbledore supporter, but because he can see the chaos that is coming and wants to be able to defend himself. (snip) It's in Dumbledore's world that real long lasting fortunes and economic power are to be had. Carolyn: I think that Theodore's father is well able to teach his son not only to defend himself, but to attack as well. Theodore has no need to join the DA, with all the loyalty/alignment risks that carries. The only reason I could think of for him doing so would be as a spy. This would be a fine sub-plot, since we are still not certain of Snape's true allegiance. Snape would presumably be both in on the plot to infiltrate Theodore, and be reporting it to Dumbledore.. or would he? Perhaps Theodore's father does not trust Snape, and encourages his son in the initiative as a private venture. As to the economic advantages accruing from the values of Dumbledore's world (based on equal opportunity, support for the under- dog, muggle relations etc), so far the jury appears to be out on the correlation in RL. Its not difficult to think of oppressive regimes which nevertheless sit astride economic prosperity. Such prosperity tends to come from lucky possession of useful assets, and/or focused commercial investment, and aggressive policies towards invaders and insurgents. Whatever the basis of the WW economy, Voldie seems well up to pursuing such strategies. bboy_mn: Ok, admittedly, I've filled in the blanks with a lot of speculation, (snip) Carolyn: Tsk tsk.. and I thought speculation was only for the rabid theorists out here . bboy_mn: In the book, we only see a few Slytherins who seem truly loyal to Draco, (snip) You don't need Draco for a friend, but more so, you REALLY REALLY don't want him as an enemy. Carolyn: Whilst this is undoubtedly true, I think it masks the political maneuvering that is going on between their various fathers. Draco is a flyweight. What matters is what Lucius is up to, and who is with him and who is against. It will be fascinating to see whether Voldemort is undone by his chief henchman, or whether he has him taped. Voldemort is such an ineffective, paranoid and un-frightening baddie that I doubt if he would survive even if Harry wasn't destined to zap him. Whether the WW survives the aftermath of VW2 will depend a good deal on the relative positions of his supporters and the other WW ruling classes. Finally, prompted by thoughts of Voldemort's agenda, a general point on what we may, or may not have learnt from the new JKR website. Personally, although I joined in the fun filling my scrapbook, on reflection I think that the site is part of a very sophisticated PR strategy to manage and control expectations about the last two books. The expectations are now so great that it is almost inevitable that people may be disappointed by what eventually happens. By leaking bits and pieces, and judiciously despatching a juicy theory or two by controlled denials, the number of options as to what might happen in the end become inevitably more limited over the next couple of years. Whilst I don't think for a moment she will give away the central kernel of the plot, by adopting this strategy she can nevertheless create a climate which guides the reader to seeing that the series is really about XXX. It will be interesting to see if the ploy has any effect on the fans! Carolyn From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon May 17 09:16:06 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:16:06 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on the new Defense of the Dark Arts teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mikefeemster" wrote: > One of the things people have tried to predict is who will be the > new Defense Against the Dark Arts (DADA) teacher. Looking at > patterns in JKR's first five books, I can make some decent > guesses > about the next DADA teacher. > > With the exception of the first book all DADA teachers were > never mentioned in any earlier book. Also, all of the teachers made > an appearance before the school term began. Quirrell in The Leaky > Cauldron, Lockhart in Flourish and Blotts, Lupin on the Hogwart's > Express, Crouch Jr. At the World Quidditch Cup, (Moody was also > mentioned at this time), Umbridge at Harry's hearing. > > I see the following pattern with DADA teachers: > > 1) Try to kill Harry and bring Voldemort back (Quirrell, Crouch Jr.) > 2) Incompetent and despised by the staff (Lockhart, Umbridge) > 3) Competent and on good terms with Harry (Lupin) > > So this tells me that the next DADA will be on fairly good terms > with Harry and competent in his or her skills. This person will > have not been introduced before. We will not have known this person > before book six. Finwitch: Yes, well, you'd think Dumbledore would make certain of that! Lupin was a werewolf, though... I wonder, will the next DADA teacher be 1) a vampire with a soul, trying to make a redemption 2) otherwise odd? Although it is true that none of the previous DADA teachers have been so much as mentioned before the said book - I think that (now that Harry's had his OWLs and we only have two books left) this DADA teacher could be someone who's been mentioned before. On second thought, how about Albus Dumbledore's brother, Aberforth Dumbledore? Considering how Albus didn't manage to find anyone for the post in OotP, he *might* be asking a family member to help him out with this...? Albus told Hagrid that Aberforth was accused of practicing improper charms on a goat (which does not mean he was guilty) but that he held his head up and went about his business as usual. Then Albus adds that he's not certain whether his brother knows how to read so it might not have been bravery... Moody shows his picture, and comments how only time he met Aberforth was when the picture was taken. That's all we know of him! Well, if the next DADA teacher is mentioned, it'd be Aberforth (and I do think that Harry will be appointed as assistant teacher who ever the new teacher will be - to do the paper work and possibly educate first years!) Mike again: > I also believe that this person will visit Harry at Privet Drive > shortly after Harry returns from Kings Cross, (chapter one). My > guess that due to the attacks last year the powers that be deem it > necessary to have a bodyguard near Harry at all times. > Since JKR has mentioned that the families of the faculty and staff > at Hogwarts play an important part in the story, it is possible for > one of them to come out now. Possibilities are a family member of > McGonagall, Sprout, or Pomfrey. Why not now. I also think that > this person will be an Animagus to keep a relatively low profile on > Privet Drive. Harry and the Dursleys will know about him or her, > but none of their neighbors, (except Mrs. Figg). Finwitch: How about a family member of Albus Dumbledore? I know, Aberforth has been mentioned, but - oh well, maybe someone who's descendant or a sibling of Albus Dumbledore (somehow I doubt his mother is still alive, but who knows...) or even his wife! Mike: > JKR has mentioned that chapter twenty-nine (Career Advice) had some > clues to the future books. I believe that this person will be > someone who earned twelve O.W.L.S. while at Hogwarts and can mentor > Harry in his path to become an Auror. Finwitch: Some clues? Such as that Harry will have Charms, Transfiguration, DADA and Potions for his NEWTs (because he needs them for his Auror career), and a fifth subject... what would that be? Care of Magical Creatures(for Hagrid) or Herbology(well, Gillyweed and Devils Snare and then that new plant Neville had)? We do know, however, that IF Harry survives, he'll be an Auror. There's also McGonagall's promise that she'll help him to become one. This *might* be a hint that the next DADA teacher is McGonagall's relative/husband, but... Mike: >Also, since JKR hasn't explained how certain > wizards become ghosts and others do not, it is quite possible that > the new teacher will be killed and become a ghost. Finwitch: I think it has been! Harry spoke to Nick after Sirius' death - and Nick said he *chose* to stay behind due to having been afraid to 'move on' with some regret - and ONLY a wizard/witch can do it. Finwitch From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Mon May 17 11:08:43 2004 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 11:08:43 -0000 Subject: Jk on Hermione's Loves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Melanie wrote: > > However, with that said I think while the question was intended to > inlicit a response that indicates a certain ship I don't think that > JKR really was answering it that way. I think the obvious answer to > the question of who Hermione loves is.....both Harry and Ron. It's > true..she loves them both. We can argue about what way but honestly > it isn't that obvious with regards to Hermione/Ron. If she wanted to > make it obvious she would have done so....so I think the clearest > meaning of this answer is that of course Hermione loves them both. > > > vmonte responds: > > I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that the screen writer > was given permission by JKR to play up the attraction between Ron and > Hermione. I saw the CoS interview with Steven Kloves and JKR and she basically says (paraphrasing) that Steven alludes to feelings between the *three* of them that she doesn't touch upon until GoF. Sienna From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon May 17 11:28:37 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 11:28:37 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98576 Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > He disobeyed a direct order from Dumbledore, yes. THAT part > > surprises me. But I think flawed Snape just couldn't take it any > > more. I would love to have heard DD's conversation w/ Snape about > > that insubordination, but alas, JKR didn't make us privy to it. Carol: > Also, Snape not only informed the Order what was happening with Harry, > he tried to prevent Sirius Black from going to the MoM. It was > Sirius's own decision, and no fault of Snape's, that he went there, > and it was his own taunt of Bellatrix that (apparently) caused her to > cast the spell that threw him through the veil. His death is in no way > Snape's fault--or Dumbledore's. Jen: Talk about wanting to be a fly on the wall for a conversation, I would *love* to know what took place between Snape & Sirius that fateful night. Did Snape inform Sirius that Harry was on his way to the MOM, but Sirius needed to stay put like a good boy? Did Snape mention that he himself was doing important work for Dumbledore & the Order, but Sirius' job was to twiddle his thumbs and wait for news? I just can't imagine Snape passing on an opportunity to goad Sirius, especially after that scene where the two nearly came to blows. It would be very much in-character for Snape to remind Sirius of his "place" in the Order, just as it was in-character for Sirius to rush off recklessly despite orders from Dumbledore. And that's not to say I believe Snape caused Sirius' death even if Snape did bait him that night. Dumbledore sums it up when he says Sirius is too old and clever to respond to taunts. But isn't Snape a little too old and clever to keep dishing it out? And re: Dumbledore and his role in Sirius' death, DD believes he played a role in it and I think he's right. Dumbledore overstates his guilt--after all he can't force Sirius to stay if he chooses otherwise--but DD *continually* underestimates the emotional factors involved in human decision-making. This is a mistake Dumbledore makes over and over with all the people under his leadership. For that reason, he did play a role in Sirius' death, even though the burden of responsibity lies with Sirius. Jen For more HP discussion, visit the friendly neighborhood pub at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/ From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon May 17 13:08:49 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:08:49 -0000 Subject: Jk on Hermione's Loves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98578 > > Sienna wrote: > This is exactly the type of response JKR was hoping to illicit from > the fandom (IMO). Being a firm believer in H/Hr, I might have said > exactly the same thing in the opposite direction and wondered why > other's didn't see what I did... but... I think Melanie has a point: > I think the obvious answer to the question of who Hermione loves > is.....both Harry and Ron. Mandy here: I think the answer has a lot to do with how each of us views JKR writing. She has given us two contrasting relationships both very complex but, one obvious and one more subtle. To me the H/R ship is the obvious ship. The two of them have a very love/hate relationship that is typical of young teens. H/H is much more subtle, deeper connection that I personally see as the true love of two kids who would die for each other. I'm not going to spend any more time arguing the differences as they've been discussed in many past posts. So the question in my mind is, do I think JRK is showing us is obvious or more subtle relationship in her writing? JKR does love to play with us, leading us along one path with red herrings and clues only to reveal a different result later in the story. It's why where all here debating and loving it. ;-) I think the R/H clues are too obvious steering us away from the richer, truer H/H ship. Cheers Mandy, who's officially become a shipper! And it felt good. ;-) From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 13:23:20 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 06:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not so ESE:Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040517132320.79882.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98580 pippin: Trouble is, Crookshanks doesn't react to Draco, Crabbe or Goyle, either. (PoA ch 5) It seems to me he doesn't have the powers of a full Kneazle, but something more like Lord Thingy's ability to know when someone is lying. Pippin animallover_11: I just reread chapter 5 PoA and I see what you are saying about Draco and Company being "ignored" by Crookshanks. I happen to view the situation slighty different than you appear to. (that is what makes this interesting!!) Crookshanks is very interested in Scabbers at this time. He is one that would be truly suspicious. As much as Draco and Company are big jerks (well they are alittle worse than that but lets be polite!!) are they really that "evil"? What have they done. The act like normal rival teenagers. Pick on the ones that you fear but they have not crossed any lines. I think it is safe to say that Peter not only crossed the line but also redrew the line. That is why Crookshanks has a big reaction to Scabbers and not Draco and Company. As for the fact that Lupin says he is not that good at potions...if he was why would Snape be making his potion? I would think that would be something he would have mastered. Animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon May 17 13:29:11 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:29:11 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" > > > Jen: Talk about wanting to be a fly on the wall for a conversation, > I would *love* to know what took place between Snape & Sirius that > fateful night. Did Snape inform Sirius that Harry was on his way to > the MOM, but Sirius needed to stay put like a good boy? Did Snape > mention that he himself was doing important work for Dumbledore & > the Order, but Sirius' job was to twiddle his thumbs and wait for > news? I just can't imagine Snape passing on an opportunity to goad > Sirius, especially after that scene where the two nearly came to > blows. It would be very much in-character for Snape to remind Sirius > of his "place" in the Order, just as it was in-character for Sirius > to rush off recklessly despite orders from Dumbledore. Mel: Oh absolutely! I feel sure that Snape liberally peppered his announcement of Harry and co's DOM predicament with comments like, "We'll take care of it, why don't you sit tight and put the kettle on?" and "dust off a few knick-knacks to keep your mind off things while the rest of the order risks their lives to protect your impetuous god-son." That's just Snape, there's no way he couldn't NOT do that. However I'm as sure that he made it absolutely clear that it was *Dumbledore's* orders that Sirius stay put at #12, not Severus Snape's. (While knowing full well what Black would do anyway.) Another conversation I'd like to have witnessed was the one in which Snape was informed of Sirius' death. I somehow doubt there was the whooping and hollering a lot of folks might expect. While I'd count on a certain amount of smugness regarding arrogance and impetuousness of the Late Sirius Black, I also wonder if there wasn't quite a bit of anger at the sheer *waste* of the whole scene. As fare as the question 'Who "played a role" in Sirius' death?' That's simple. Sirius. And Bella. Sirius made the descision (for whatever reason, noble or not, however you want to see it) to enter the fray against all orders and common sense. It wasn't Snape's "fault" or Dumbledore's "fault" or Harry's "fault". Melpomene From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon May 17 13:42:49 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:42:49 -0000 Subject: Jk on Hermione's Loves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98582 Mandy wrote: >>> To me the H/R ship is the obvious ship. The two of them have a very love/hate relationship that is typical of young teens. H/H is much more subtle, deeper connection that I personally see as the true love of two kids who would die for each other. I'm not going to spend any more time arguing the differences as they've been discussed in many past posts. So the question in my mind is, do I think JRK is showing us is obvious or more subtle relationship in her writing? JKR does love to play with us, leading us along one path with red herrings and clues only to reveal a different result later in the story. It's why where all here debating and loving it. ;-) I think the R/H clues are too obvious steering us away from the richer, truer H/H ship.>>> Ali agreeing: I'm not a shipper, so I'll be happy with an H/H ending, an H/R ending or no ship ending if it's written well. But, I do feel that Rons feelings for Hermione are obvious, but Hermione's feelings are not so apparent. Harry, if he has any romantic feelings for Hermione has yet to realise it. I think his two main female relationships so far are very similar to those experienced by David Copperfield. David falls in love with the rather silly Dora - despite Cho being a Ravenclaw, I am left with an impression of her as a bit of an airhead. All the while though, David loves and is loved by Agnes. It takes him a long time to realise and reciprocate the romantic feelings he has for Agnes. Harry could easily be in the same position with Hermione. Despite Hermione's argumentative tussles with Ron - which JKR does remind us are similar to Arthur and Molly - Hermione has yet to show obvious romantic feelings in any direction. Harry goes for the pretty and vacuuous whilst all along he is with his soulmate. In short, JKR has made it obvious that Ron fancies Hermione. I think that is almost universally accepted (???). I don't believe that JKR has made the shipping as obvious as she asserts - that would be boring IMHO. Certainly, other people are jealous of the realtionship which Harry has with Hermione. Both Cho and Victor Krum think that there must be romantic involvement. Arguably, as Harry ultimately has to make the hero's journey alone, Hermione cannot be with him. Ron and Hermione are joint deputies so they have a natural link to each other. Equally, Harry is the hero, and if he survives, he should get his girl*. Despite the existence of two worthy possibilities in Ginny and Luna, Hermione is *so far* the only girl with sufficient understanding of Harry to feel right. But, we've still got 2 books to go, and I'm willing to have my mind changed. *Before you think me incredibly sexist, I only talk about Harry getting his girl as the books are Harry's hero's journey. Hermione is clearly not a trophy girl. If that was the kind of girl that Harry needed, I think Cho would be right for him. Ali From lisa at faistudio.com Mon May 17 13:26:43 2004 From: lisa at faistudio.com (lisa graves) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:26:43 -0000 Subject: Fawkes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98583 Let me start by saying that I've been reading all the postings for about a month- I still haven't mastered the art of replying to any post (the elves keep trying, but alas, I am a hopeless muggle with the intellegence level of a Dursley). I have a question that I have not seen addressed (keep in mind my muggleness- a curse in itself). In CoS, Riddle balks at Harry "So this is what Dumbledore sends you- a songbird...." now, with Riddle becoming one of the most powerful wizards in the world, would he not know that Fawkes, being a Pheonix, would be able to aid Harry in many many ways. Would he not be aware of the powers of a Pheonix? If it be that Voldy-thing by taking on the form of Riddle as a student, had only the knowledge of himself as a student- as the heir of Slytherin, would he not know that Griffendor himself would come to the aid of Harry? Not to mention the fact that he MUST know that his wand was made with one of Fawkes' feathers. Similarly, in OOtP, Fawkes once again comes to the rescue- swallowing a curse from you-know-who, it would seem to me that he want to rid the wizarding world of this meddlesome bird. What happens if Fawkes is killed, can he die? and what will happen to ol' snake-face's wand? to Harry's wand? Go easy on me please. -Lisa From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon May 17 14:05:45 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:05:45 EDT Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20[HPforGrownups]=20Mark=20Evans=20=E2=80=93=20the?= =?UTF-8?Q?=20next=20theory=20to=20be=20shot=20down=20by=20JKR=3F?= Message-ID: <1d7.215b1f81.2dda20b9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98584 In a message dated 05/16/2004 4:48:54 PM Central Daylight Time, nkafkafi at yahoo.com writes: > > Like JKR, I find it hard to believe that some readers didn't work > this out, but if any shippers out there still want to believe in H/H, > I guess they still can. > > Neri > > Then there is her quote during the Albert Hall interview where she says one of the reasons that OOTP is so long is that her need to put in additional clues for books 6 and 7. She didn't want anyone to be able to accuse her of being "a cheat" or saying "Well you sprang that on us." or "you never gave us any clues". She also says that we can figure it out if we have our wits about us. However in an interview just prior to the release of OOTP she said that, after 10 years of writing these books, she'd be quite cross if anyone figured it out in advance. Hmm rather makes one wonder what she wants us to figure out and what she doesn't. Lots of H/Hr hints in that book. But if you still want to belive in R/Hr I guess you can Melissa [who considering playing hookey on such a fine spring day but will probably give into the guilt and go to work] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Mon May 17 14:20:22 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:20:22 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: Mel: >That's just Snape, there's no way he couldn't NOT do that. However >I'm as sure that he made it absolutely clear that it was >*Dumbledore's* orders that Sirius stay put at #12, not Severus >Snape's. (While knowing full well what Black would do anyway.) "K" OoP-Ch 37-pg 830-US ~~"When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolored Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Vodemort's. He alerted certain Order members at once."~~ According to Dumbleodre, Snape was worried that Harry believed Sirius was a captive. Of course I am aware that this is what Snape told Dumbledore. :-) pg 830 ~~Dumbledore heaved a great sigh and then said, "Alastor Moody, Nymphadora Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt, and Remus Lupin were at headquarters when he made contact.~~ Snape was the one who made contact with the Order. pg 830 ~~"All agreed to go to your aid at once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment.~~ It was Snape who requested that Sirius stay behind. Not Dumbledore. Dumbledore was not yet aware of the situation. I just don't believe Snape would feel the need to lie and say that it was Dumbledore who suggested Sirius stay back. The excuse Snape used was that someone needed to stay till Dumbledore arrived. That's very believeable. Poor Snape. He just always seems to be the whipping boy! "K" From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 17 14:36:04 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:36:04 -0000 Subject: Neville on the Quidditch team? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: > Philosopher's Stone, Through the Trapdoor, p192 UK paperback "... And Neville will play Quidditch for England before Hagrid lets Dumbledore down." Ron comments, just before Harry works out Hagrid was conned into telling the mysterious stranger how to get past Fluffy. > Harry and Ron may have their differences on the team in the next books, but my money's on Neville - beater or chaser though?< Besides catching the prophecy orb in the MoM, there's Imperius'd Neville's amazing display of acrobatic ability in GoF, and his ability to get his broomstick airborne in Book One despite having never been on a broom before. His lack of control parallels his lack of control in potions class. Plenty of people botch potions but nobody else blows up their cauldron. I'd guess that Neville's flying abilities, like Neville's potions, are plenty powerful. All he needs to do is develop some confidence. Pippin who votes beater, on account of Neville's courage and his build From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon May 17 14:43:44 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:43:44 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98587 > bboy_mn: > > Exactly how does this new information about Theodore Nott cancel out > or diminish the possibility of a 'Good Slytherin'. In my view, the new > information re-enforces the likelihood that T. Nott is indeed the Good > Slytherin. > > > In the book, we only see a few Slytherins who seem truly loyal to > Draco, the rest seem content to mind their own business, although, > they still laugh at Draco's jokes. But then, knowing Draco and his > father as they do, while they may not cultivate a friendship, they > certainly would go out of their way not to get on his bad side. You > don't need Draco for a friend, but more so, you REALLY REALLY don't > want him as an enemy. > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn Antosha: I totally agree with your point--my first reaction when seeing the info that JKR shared regarding Mr. Nott was that, at the very least, we're going to be seeing a lot more of the weedy-looking boy in the books to come; she's clearly thinking about him a great deal. Having said that, I do want to point out that the only certain canon sighting of TN was in OotP, right after Rita Skeeter's interview with Harry appeared in the Quibbler. Nott was hanging out with Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, staring menacingly in Harry's direction. There a couple of other likely Nott sightings, but so far, that's his only real appearance. So, while I agree with you, I don't think we can quite say that TN is entirely free of Draco's influence.... From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon May 17 14:48:06 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:48:06 -0000 Subject: Snape's Reaction to Black's Death (Re: ESE!Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98588 > Mel: > Oh absolutely! > I feel sure that Snape liberally peppered his announcement of Harry > and co's DOM predicament with comments like, "We'll take care of it, > why don't you sit tight and put the kettle on?" and "dust off a few > knick-knacks > to keep your mind off things while the rest of the order risks their > lives to protect your impetuous god-son." That's just Snape, there's > no way he couldn't NOT do that. Jen: Lol, that's exactly what Snape would say. Although he would add: "your impetuous, arrogant godson who, like his father, only thinks of himself." Yes? Am I getting the snappy Snape dialogue here?! Mel: > Another conversation I'd like to have witnessed was the one in which > Snape was informed of Sirius' death. I somehow doubt there was the > whooping and hollering a lot of folks might expect. While I'd count > on a certain amount of smugness regarding arrogance and > impetuousness of the Late Sirius Black, I also wonder if there > wasn't quite a bit of anger at the sheer *waste* of the whole scene. Jen: I picture Snape's reaction as being similar to Phineas'--for all his bluster and pompousness, Phineas was genuinely taken aback by the events. For Snape, it was one thing to hate Sirius when he was alive, but to find out his personal nemesis is dead...well that's a very hollow victory. No matter how much he hated the Marauders, Snape is out-living them and/or watching the slow destruction of their lives. I just hope Book 6 will fill in the gaps. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 17 15:00:18 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:00:18 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98589 > > "K" wrote: > > OoP-Ch 37-pg 830-US > ~~"When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest > with Dolored Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still > believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Vodemort's. He alerted > certain Order members at once."~~ > > According to Dumbleodre, Snape was worried that Harry believed > Sirius was a captive. Of course I am aware that this is what Snape > told Dumbledore. :-) > > pg 830 > > ~~Dumbledore heaved a great sigh and then said, "Alastor Moody, > Nymphadora Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt, and Remus Lupin were at > headquarters when he made contact.~~ > > Snape was the one who made contact with the Order. > > pg 830 > ~~"All agreed to go to your aid at once. Professor Snape requested > that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at > headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at > any moment.~~ > > It was Snape who requested that Sirius stay behind. Not Dumbledore. > Dumbledore was not yet aware of the situation. > > I just don't believe Snape would feel the need to lie and say that > it was Dumbledore who suggested Sirius stay back. The excuse Snape > used was that someone needed to stay till Dumbledore arrived. That's > very believeable. > > Poor Snape. He just always seems to be the whipping boy! > > "K" Potioncat: I cannot snip any more of this and still have it work. I did snip Mel's part about Snape possibly taunting Black as he asked him to remain behind. So now I'm adding my 2 knuts as I agree with "K" We don't know the chain of command here (you can spot the military members on this list right away.) I would think it was either Moody or Shacklebolt. I wonder why Black wasn't ordered to stay behind. Looking at the list of participants available, Black is the best candidate to remain and brief DD. The others are trained Aurors and are in shape, better able to take on whatever situation they find at MoM. And, Black is already being used as bait, showing up there will make it harder on Harry, not easier. Of course we don't know how Snape requested Black to stay and I don't think of us who have an opinion will change those with an different one. But IMHO, it was Black who started the taunting at Grimmauld Place. I can't see it would have served Snape to get into that game now. And no, like another post on this thread, I do not think he was happy that Black was dead. Lucius Malfoy might be though. Potioncat From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 17 15:00:40 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:00:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98590 Jen: > And re: Dumbledore and his role in Sirius' death, DD believes he played a role in it and I think he's right. Dumbledore overstates his guilt--after all he can't force Sirius to stay if he chooses otherwise--but DD *continually* underestimates the emotional factors involved in human decision-making. This is a mistake Dumbledore makes over and over with all the people under his leadership. For that reason, he did play a role in Sirius' death, even though the burden of responsibity lies with Sirius. > I don't quite understand this. Dumbledore takes responsibility for Sirius's death because if Dumbledore had told Harry everything, then Harry would have known that Voldemort was trying to trick him into getting the prophecy, and he would never have gone to the Ministry, or he would have gone more warily. It was because of concern for Harry's emotional welfare that Dumbledore kept this information back. He did not want to burden him with the knowledge that only he, Harry, could defeat the Dark Lord. That's quite a lot to lay on someone who's not quite sixteen, isn't it? I don't think Dumbledore underestimated the toll being cooped up at the Dursleys, or in Grimmauld Place, would take on his charges. He knew it. The twinkle in his eyes goes right out as he leaves Harry at Privet Drive in Book One. From what he says about Sirius, he knew perfectly well that Sirius was suffering emotionally at Grimmauld Place. But the purpose of the Order is not to keep Harry, Sirius, Snape or anybody else from emotional pain, if that is the price of thwarting evil. There are some things worth suffering for. The purpose of the order is to defeat Voldemort. That means that Harry has to be kept alive, and the people Harry loves have to be protected from being taken hostage. If there was a safer place than Privet Drive, or Grimmauld Place, don't you think Dumbledore would have used it? Pippin From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon May 17 15:10:40 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:10:40 -0000 Subject: No more "Voldie" nickname? In-Reply-To: <15c.34b1a74b.2dd999f7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98591 > Maybe we're just too scared to say The Name now and "Voldie" is just part of > the transition period. I happen to think "Lord Thingy" is much cuter, btw. > > ~Cassie~ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] We could just call him "What's His Head" but, then again, that would be confusing when discussing QuirrelMort! From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 17 15:15:08 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:15:08 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98592 Kneasy: <> Sigune: Ah. Well. Here is Sigune the Severe ready to make an attempt, however poor ? I did read the posts you referred to, and I have a slight problem with the reasoning. OF COURSE I know you are going to wriggle your way out of it, but I just want to see you do it :). I have ? in case anyone doesn't know yet ? a *huge* problem with the thought of Snape having any love relationship at all; which means I also have a problem with one of your pet theories, namely that of Snape having a family and that family being killed by Lord Thingy (seems I'm not allowed to say `Voldie' anymore, so I'll stick to Fudge's suggestion, which IMO is even better ;-). Anyway ? I entirely agree with your description of Snape in post 98434: Kneasy: <> Sigune: Whatever anyone can say about Snape, we have never seen him affectionate, amiable or kind. He styles himself (I believe in conscious styling on his part) an Evil Wizard ? he looks the stereotype, doesn't he, and he could easily change that. He seems to deliberately keep people off. It seems like he *wants* to be disliked, while at the same time craving for recognition ? recognition for his powers, his services, his cleverness, but never for his personality. So, what I ask myself is how you would explain his even *thinking* about founding a family? Who could Snape love (not to mention: who could love Snape enough to set up house with him, because, as you pointed out in an earlier post, this is *not* Alan Rickman we are talking about)? Who would Snape share his life with? Who would he allow to get in the way of his busy potion-making, Death-Eating, success-seeking career? I know you'll say `Florence', but how or why? And all in such a hurry. If Snape is the man in the memories, as you suggest, he cannot have been older than twenty-one. All right, James was that young, too; but he was rich and didn't need to work if he didn't feel like it (dixit JKR), and for all we know he did not have Snape's ambition. In any case, as far as I know (but I admit my experience is rather limited), founding a family is not exactly the greatest boost for one's career as you have to invest lots of time, money and effort in it. Not to mention love and care. It is something you really have to *want*. Loving and caring Snape, eager to have a wife and kiddies? Hmph. (Yes, Potioncat, I greatly appreciate the running joke about the twins; but I put it in the same category as Carolyn's hilarious ending to book 7, with love bursting out of the mysterious ministry room and causing Snape to hug innocent bystanders ? LOL). No, JKR will never be able to make me swallow that. Kneasy: <> Sigune: Couldn't resist quoting this bit ? it's so delightful. But, as I said, I think it sort of jars with your overall characterisation of Snape. You can't say it is the before/after effect, after scolding other listees for being too romantic :)... In any case I would find it hard to believe Snape started a vendetta against Voldemort because now he has to cook his own dinner. But I may be wrong of course. Who can fathom the depths of the Potions Master's mind? ;) Kneasy: << Snape probably sits alone in his dungeon room, muttering and sticking pins in his Voldy Action Doll (It walks! It talks! It shoots out green rays! Amaze your friends!) dreaming dreams. Sorry, Sevvy old lad, you ain't gonna make it. Not to the end of book 7 you're not. Shame really.>> Sigune: As to that, even the idea of the Voldy Action Doll unfortunately fails to gild the bitter pill of your predicting Snape's demise. No, no, I won't hear of it! he's an escape artist. He'll survive and laugh sardonically at all those dunderheads whom he has tricked. [sighs] Bl?h. I shouldn't have become so involved in someone else's universe. And whenever I care about a character, he/she usually dies. Hate it. Yours severely, Sigune ~ready for her post to be torn to bits From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 17 15:21:02 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:21:02 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98593 > > bboy_mn: > > > > Exactly how does this new information about Theodore Nott cancel out > > or diminish the possibility of a 'Good Slytherin'. In my view, the new > > information re-enforces the likelihood that T. Nott is indeed the Good > > Slytherin. > > > You don't need Draco for a friend, but more so, you REALLY REALLY don't want him as an enemy. > > Antosha: > > I totally agree with your point--x> snip< > Having said that, I do want to point out that the only certain canon sighting of TN was in > OotP, right after Rita Skeeter's interview with Harry appeared in the Quibbler. Nott was > hanging out with Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, staring menacingly in Harry's direction. There > a couple of other likely Nott sightings, but so far, that's his only real appearance. So, while > I agree with you, I don't think we can quite say that TN is entirely free of Draco's > influence.... Potioncat: I agree with both of you and will argue along. I don't see the new info about T. Nott changing his potential for the good Slytherin. (Assuming there is to be one.) Yes, we saw him with the Slytherin trio, but they were reading about their fathers in the Quibbler. And it isn't clear who was giving Harry mean looks. But even if Nott is "good" he'd have reason to shoot some looks at Harry at that moment. Now, Nott has to be around Draco at class and at meals. (And share a dormitory. Yuck!) Except for this one time (Quibbler) we don't see him named as joining Malfoy. They don't walk to class together, they aren't on the IS together. He doesnt' attack Harry on the train and get blasted. Yeah, I know we've been told he's a loner, but loners would go along with certain actions if they felt a real interest. So Nott is going to be influenced by what he sees of Malfoy, and by what has happened to Nott senior in the DE's. He may have some very good reasons to either join the DA or to at least avoid the DE's. What concerns me more on the issue of the Good Slytherin, is JKR's statement that too many of the people on the chat she attended identified with Slytherin. It really sounds like she considers Slytherins the bad guys. Potioncat From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 17 15:22:02 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:22:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's Reaction to Black's Death (Re: ESE!Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98594 Jen wrote: << I picture Snape's reaction as being similar to Phineas'--for all his bluster and pompousness, Phineas was genuinely taken aback by the events. For Snape, it was one thing to hate Sirius when he was alive, but to find out his personal nemesis is dead...well that's a very hollow victory. No matter how much he hated the Marauders, Snape is out-living them and/or watching the slow destruction of their lives. I just hope Book 6 will fill in the gaps.>> Sigune: Snape will have to go after Bellatrix now (hmmm...) - she robbed him of the victim he would in all probability have liked to keep for himself. Yes, I bet he is sorry someone else was just a bit quicker... Too late now to slip a nice untraceable and slow-working poison in Black's cup... Yours severely, Sigune From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 17 15:32:42 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:32:42 -0000 Subject: What JKR's up to (was: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98595 Carolyn wrote: > Finally, prompted by thoughts of Voldemort's agenda, a general > point on what we may, or may not have learnt from the new JKR > website. Personally, although I joined in the fun filling my > scrapbook, on reflection I think that the site is part of a very > sophisticated PR strategy to manage and control expectations about > the last two books. The expectations are now so great that it is > almost inevitable that people may be disappointed by what > eventually happens. By leaking bits and pieces, and judiciously > despatching a juicy theory or two by controlled denials, the number > of options as to what might happen in the end become inevitably > more limited over the next couple of years. Whilst I don't think > for a moment she will give away the central kernel of the plot, by > adopting this strategy she can nevertheless create a climate which > guides the reader to seeing that the series is really about XXX. It > will be interesting to see if the ploy has any effect on the fans! > Siriusly Snapey Susan: I know that this was not the main point of Carolyn's post, but I wanted to pull it out & highlight it, to be sure it didn't get lost in the discussion of Theodore Nott. I think Carolyn is *definitely* onto something with this assessment of one of the purposes of JKR's website overhaul. Did she do it to bring some fun to the fans? I believe so, yes. Did she also do it so that she could "gently" debunk some ideas and shoot down a few theories? I believe she is doing this, too, yes. Carolyn wrote, "Whilst I don't think for a moment she will give away the central kernel of the plot, by adopting this strategy she can nevertheless create a climate which guides the reader to seeing that the series is really about XXX." And I would add to the end of that sentence, "..and NOT about YYY." Yes, I think this might be a way of trying to keep people from being too disappointed later [or maybe helping them decide to give up now if they're too attached to their pet theories??], by showing them some things that definitely aren't going to happen. I think this will tick some people off. I've already heard concern [and maybe a stronger word should be used] being expressed that JKR is TELLING people how to react or feel about characters and situations. I don't quite agree. I think she's *cautioning* us about the series which, after all, is HER series and which is still a work in progress. She alone knows how it will end. Clearly she knows that thousands & thousands of people are investing tremendous time & energy into trying to figure out the ending and into analyzing her characters & their world. That has to be flattering, but it might also be a little disconcerting if she sees large groups of people becoming attached to things which she knows won't happen. Is it so bad to let us down gently along the way? Siriusly Snapey Susan, who's a little worried about opening a can of worms with this, but.... From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon May 17 15:33:34 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:33:34 -0000 Subject: Seduction: Bella and the Boys. ( was: Why we ship.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98596 > Kneasy wrote: > I've already read the runes; Draco will meet a most interesting end at the hands of Dominatrix Bella. A schoolboy fantasy par excellence! The trouble is Draco won't be up to it. Mandy here: Not just a schoolboy fantasy I might add. ;-) I'm not sure why Bellatrix would bother with Draco. Other than digging the knife into Lucius Malfoy heart. I do see a power struggle between Lucius and Bellatrix as to just who actually is LV second in command, and now Lucius is in Azkaban and his family are vulnerable, I wouldn't put it past Bellatrix to devour Lucius Malfoy's prodigal son. But it would just be desert. There is no need to seduce and/or kill Draco for any reason other then fun. Unless Bellatrix can place Draco in favor with Harry, only to betray them both in the end. That's rather tantalizing. If there is any seducing and discarding to be done by our terrifying Dark witch, it has to be one of the good boys. Before any of my American cousins get there knickers in a twist, by seduction I'm not talking about rampant sexual intercourse, but the seduction of one of our lads into making some terrible choice that will result in irreparable damage, mayhem and death. Here are my favorite two: Ron: A prime candidate to betray Harry, as he is desperate and insecure enough to be easily seduced by money and/or his family's safety. Although it's far too easy and not enough of a challenge for Bellatrix imo. Also another member of the Weasley clan, Percy, is already crossing the line between good and evil. Neville: The seduction of Neville Longbottom would be a true fait acomple! No one would ever suspect. To take the son of the man and woman Bellatrix tortured into insanity, and seduce him into betraying Harry Potter would be a triumph equal only to Richard III's seduction of Lady Anne in Shakespeare! A challenge worthy of our Ms. Lestrange. Cheers, Mandy, who can't resist rambling about my favorite character, Bellatrix. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 17 15:48:18 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:48:18 -0000 Subject: No more "Voldie" nickname? In-Reply-To: <15c.34b1a74b.2dd999f7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98597 Alla: >>>When JKR wrote on her website that practice of calling Voldemort "Voldie" must stop and Voldie will not be a sweetheart even with therapy, I was absolutely positive that she was teasing us, laughing with us. I was 100% sure.<<< vmonte responds: >>I don't think JKR is ordering her fans around. I think what she is trying to say is that Voldemort is a disgusting human being and should not be given a cute cuddly nickname. It would be like giving Hitler a cute nickname.<< Cassie: > Maybe we're just too scared to say The Name now and "Voldie" is just part of the transition period. I happen to think "Lord Thingy" is much cuter, btw.< SSSusan: I think she was laughing along with us, as well, not ORDERING anyone to stop. I mean, please, who could? No, I think JKR was stressing that anyone who thinks Voldy [see? I'm going to keep calling him whatever I choose] isn't such a bad guy or could be reformed w/ a few sessions on a psychiatrist's couch is waaaay wrong. And that's all. I took her words more as instructive about Voldy's nature than about her annoyance with or bossing around of the fandom. As I said, I'll just call him whatever I want to call him, and it doesn't matter, because I never thought he was "an okay guy who just made a wrong choice or two" anyway. My two knuts. Siriusly Snapey Susan From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon May 17 15:53:13 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 15:53:13 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot (was: Re: Mark Evans) In-Reply-To: <1d7.215b1f81.2dda20b9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98598 > > Neri wrote: > > Like JKR, I find it hard to believe that some readers didn't work > > this out, but if any shippers out there still want to believe in H/H, > > I guess they still can. > > > Melissa wrote: > Then there is her quote during the Albert Hall interview where she says one > of the reasons that OOTP is so long is that her need to put in additional clues > for books 6 and 7. She didn't want anyone to be able to accuse her of being > "a cheat" or saying "Well you sprang that on us." or "you never gave us any > clues". She also says that we can figure it out if we have our wits about us. > However in an interview just prior to the release of OOTP she said that, after > 10 years of writing these books, she'd be quite cross if anyone figured it > out in advance. > > Hmm rather makes one wonder what she wants us to figure out and what she > doesn't. Lots of H/Hr hints in that book. But if you still want to belive in > R/Hr I guess you can Neri again: Well, some of the clues are in the best JKR tradition, very difficult to find and obscured by many red herrings, but other clues are quite simple and very easy to read (even JKR can't make *everything* complicated and convoluted, you know. Some things should be just kept simple). So if I read JKR's answers right, she is telling us that in shipping the clues are right there on the surface for everybody to read ("I can't believe some of you haven't got it yet") but with the main plot it's going to be devious in the best of JKR's style. In a way it is JKR's own fault that nobody just takes her on face value anymore, but regarding shipping she repeatedly told us that we can easily figure it out ourselves, so it means that the most obvious ships are the correct ones. This almost certainly means R/H and probably also H/G. Sorry, you fans of all other ships. I'm not an ardent shipper myself but I can read what's written. Neri From jferer at yahoo.com Mon May 17 16:07:08 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:07:08 -0000 Subject: What JKR's up to (was: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98599 Siriusly Snapey Susan:"I think Carolyn is definitely onto something with this assessment of one of the purposes of JKR's website overhaul. Did she do it to bring some fun to the fans? I believe so, yes. Did she also do it so that she could "gently" debunk some ideas and shoot down a few theories? I believe she is doing this, too, yes." Carolyn is on to something, and so are you. JKR is also gently reminding us whose universe this is. I imagine JKR sees some of the theories floating around and wonders what planet they came from. SSS: "I think this [debunking some theories] will tick some people off. I've already heard concern [and maybe a stronger word should be used] being expressed that JKR is TELLING people how to react or feel about characters and situations." Are you referring to the "Voldie" thing? I'm surprised people took that the wrong way; clearly JKR was saying it in a lighthearted and humorous way. She always seems to have been a little mystified by our tendency to rehab villains (read "Draco") and vilify good guys. How cynical we've all become. What's going on is a struggle for ownership of the Potterverse with its own creator! You are right, it's HER series. Jim Ferer From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon May 17 16:12:40 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:12:40 -0000 Subject: JRK is right! Give Voldemort respect. was: No more "Voldie" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98600 Mandy here: I agree with JKR on this one, and an glad that hardly anyone on this site uses that particular name in reference to Lord Voldemort. I've always found it silly and it doesn't in any way describe the villain worthy of our hero's trials and tribulations. `Volide' is too cute, cuddly and imo disrespectful, and if we're going to honor JKR's works by discussing as much as we do, I think we should respect her wishes. JKR wants Voldemort to maintain an aurora of menace and terror and to dumb him down with a silly nickname is wrong and disrespectful to the character and authors intention. I understand the need by some readers to diminish the villain to make him more palatable and acceptable, but anytime the bad guy in a story is dumbed down it takes away from the hero of the story. When Harry finally defeats Voldemort, the victory will be diminished if we all look upon Voldemort as a weak and cute, 'Voldie'. Most of us on this site refer to Voldemort as LV, Dumbledore as DD, and J.K. Rowling as JRK, for the sake of short hand. These shortening of names to initials, imo, are more acceptable because they don't take away from the power of the name itself. Of course JKR might disagree. Stepping of her soap box, Mandy. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 17 16:12:31 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:12:31 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98601 >>snipping several comments<<<< > >> Sigune: snip He seems to deliberately keep people off. It seems like he *wants* to be disliked, while at the same time craving for recognition ? recognition for his powers, his services, his cleverness, but never for his personality. Potioncat: Someone perhaps who's been convinced he's not worthy of love, so keeps a distance as protection? (Needing so much protection he builds a wall with cannons...not much canon here.) Yet seeks recognition in ways he can be acknowledged? (Wait a minute, which side was I taking...) >>Sigune: Who could Snape love (not to mention: who > could love Snape enough to set up house with him, because, as you > pointed out in an earlier post, this is *not* Alan Rickman we are > talking about)? ...snip<<< In any case, as far as I know (but I admit my > experience is rather limited), founding a family is not exactly the greatest boost for one's career as you have to invest lots of time, money and effort in it. Not to mention love and care. It is something you really have to *want*. Potioncat: Well, actually in older times, with more traditional ways, having a wife at home to tend to your day to day needs (Don't go there Kneasy!) being married would be a boon to your career. Someone to smile at the boss at wardroom (oops) office parties, someone to serve as hostess when you invite the boss over....Someone to wash and press your billowing robes. (I'm old enough that I was once mentioned on my husband's fitness report. Although at the time that wasn't supposed to happen any more.) And, I've known real life Snape types perhaps not as Snapey as Snape of course, and they've each had a wife and family to go home to at the end of the day. >>>snip >>>Sigune In any case I would find it hard to believe Snape started a vendetta against Voldemort because now he has to cook his own dinner. But I may be wrong of course. Who can fathom the depths of the Potions Master's mind? ;) Potioncat: It would be His family. His wife. His children. He would not take kindly to any intrusion on that. Certainly, anyone who harmed them would face his wrath. IMO he's the type of man who would be wrapped around a little daughter's little finger! I'm not sure if Florence was the wife or if Severus was the man, but I'm willing to keep it as a real possibility. I'm also willing to consider a family not yet revealed I'm also waiting to see whether JKR is shocked that anyone could think he can be loved because he can't or because he can. Well, I was responding to Kneasy and Sigune here, but I seemed to have snipped Kneasy's comments that started the whole thing. Potioncat who now favors SSSusan and SSSigune for the twins. ;-) From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 17 16:44:01 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:44:01 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > What concerns me more on the issue of the Good Slytherin, is JKR's statement that too many of the people on the chat she attended identified with Slytherin. It really sounds like she considers Slytherins the bad guys. < Erm, that's not exactly what she said. http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=63 "I was concerned to find that many of the moderators feel their spiritual home is Slytherin" I don't think there's any question but JKR believes that Gryffindor values are spiritually superior to Slytherin ones and wants us to think so too. That does not say that Slytherins themselves are morally inferior to Gryffindors. Slytherins, though schooled to be cunning, opportunistic and exclusionary, may just as freely choose to serve a greater good, while Gryffindors are every bit as capable of wrongdoing, despite that they ought to know better. Pippin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 17 16:58:42 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:58:42 -0000 Subject: Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lisa graves" wrote: > > ...edited... In CoS, Riddle balks at Harry "So this is what > Dumbledore sends you- a songbird...." ..., with Riddle becoming one > of the most powerful wizards in the world, would he not know that > Fawkes, being a Pheonix, would be able to aid Harry in many many > ways? .... If ... Voldy-..., had only the knowledge of himself as a > student- as the heir of Slytherin, would he not know that Gryffindor > himself would come to the aid of Harry? > bboy_mn: Indeed, I believe Diary!Tom Riddle had only the knowledge and experience of the 16 year old Self that created him. Too many people make the assumption that Diary!Tom Riddle knows everything Voldemort knows, and that Voldemort knows and has experienced everything that Diary!Tom has; not so. Voldemort has no more than superficial knowledge, if any, of what happened in the Chamber of Secrets that night. Young Tom, regarding Harry and the state of the modern wizard world, knows only what Ginny told him, and what he was able to piece together by logical deduction. As far as being Heir of Slytherin, that would give him no special knowledge or insight into the events at hand. And, I'm not so sure Gryffindor himself aided Harry in any way. True, Harry did use Gryffindor's sword and the Sorting Hat once belong to Gryffindor, but I think that was more a matter of fate and availability. It does however, create a strong link between Harry and Gryffindor House as well as Gryffindor character. I think it exists in the story in just that way to confirm to Harry once and for all, that he indeed does belong in Gryffindor House. As far as Tom's 'song bird' comment, I think to some extent he was trying to ridicule Harry and undermine his confidence. He would logically have, and later demonstrates that he has knowledge of the Phoenix. But given that Harry was a young boy, and that Tom had a wand, a Phoenix would not seem like much of a weapon. Phoenix has great defensive capability in the sense that it is, in a manner of speaking, immortal, but it doesn't have much in the sense of 'attack' or offensive capability. In addition, I'm sure Tom saw no potential threat from the old sorting hat. Even after the Hat produced the Sword, a sword is not much of a weapon against a wizard with a wand, and the most deadly creatures in the magic world. One of Voldemort great failings is that he is supreme in his own arrogance. He sees himself as so perfect and so powerful that any thing he thinks of must immeditately be valid and true simply because he, the great and mighty Voldemort, thought of it. This arrogance repeatedly causes him to underestimate his opponents. > Lisa: > > Not to mention the fact that he MUST know that his wand was made > with one of Fawkes' feathers. bboy_mn: But how would he know that? Voldemort/Tom's wand was sold over 50 years ago; Harry's wand only came into his possession just a few years ago. There in no way for Diary!Tom to come across that information. Harry only knows that his core came specifically from Fawkes because of his personal connection to Dumbledore. Until Harry bought the second wand, which Phoenix donated the wand cores wouldn't really have any significants beyond an interesting bit of Trivia. In the graveyard scene in Gobet of Fire, while the events play out, Voldemort doesn't seem to know why these strange things are happening. He may have been able to, and most likely did, put it together after the fact, but he would have no way of transfering the knowledge back to young Diary!Tom. > Lisa: > > Similarly, in OOtP, Fawkes once again comes to the rescue- > swallowing a curse from you-know-who, it would seem to me > that he want to rid the wizarding world of this meddlesome bird. > What happens if Fawkes is killed, can he die? and what will > happen to ol' snake-face's wand? to Harry's wand? > > Go easy on me please. > -Lisa bboy_mn: Once again, Diary!Tom and Voldemort do not share experiences beyond the time when the Diary was created. Voldemort probably has very little information about what happened in the Chamber, and Diary!Tom would have no way of know what happened to Voldemort two years later in the Graveyard. None the less, I'm sure the bad guys all see Fawkes as a troublesome meddlesome bird that they would dearly love to get rid of. While Phoenix do die, they are immediately reborn, and in that sense, are immortal; they die, but they never cease to exist. It is conceivable that a Phoenix can truly die, but I don't think we have enough of Phoenix mythology from JKR herself to determine how that might happen. Interesting thought you had about potential changes to Voldemort's and Harry's wands if Fawkes dies. The feathers are detached from the bird, so on one hand their fates should be separate, but on the other hand, the feathers do derive their magic from the living bird. Once again though, I don't think we have enough information of Rowling own personal brand of Phoenix mythology to know for sure. Welcome to the group. Most new posters are worried that their subject has been discussed before. You can be sure it has, but we never let that stop us. New discussions of old subjects come up all the time, and frequently open new insight that we previously hadn't thought of. Also... don't forget... it's just my opinion. bboy_mn From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon May 17 17:00:28 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:00:28 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98604 potioncat wrote: > What concerns me more on the issue of the Good Slytherin, is JKR's > statement that too many of the people on the chat she attended > identified with Slytherin. It really sounds like she considers > Slytherins the bad guys. > > Potioncat Eustace_Scrubb: I agree with those who think that JKR's notes about Theodore Nott increase the chances that he'll turn up in some role in one of the next two books. The real question is can one (or two or six) "Good Slytherins" effect the unity of the four houses, which the Sorting Hat alluded to in OoTP and which is behind the "Good Slytherin" speculation, if I'm not too mistaken. Unless the "Good Slytherin" is also a good leader of other Slytherins (and Theodore's a loner, not a leader, in the cut backstory). I also wonder exactly how the scene between Theodore and Draco would have worked, given that with very few exceptions (Chapter 1 of SS/PS, are there others that weren't at least part of Harry's dreams), the reader sees the story from Harry's viewpoint. It seems unlikely that Harry would have present for this meeting and doesn't seem to fit in with any of his dream patterns. Maybe that's why it was cut? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon May 17 17:06:09 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:06:09 -0000 Subject: Controlling the Potterverse (Was Re: What JKR's up to) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98605 Jim Ferer wrote: > What's going on is a struggle for ownership of the Potterverse with > its own creator! You are right, it's HER series. > > Jim Ferer Eustace_Scrubb: I think you're right. Which makes me wonder about the statement in the FAQ-- "I often get suggestions about what I ought to insert into Harry Potter books, but these are my stories and mine alone; if anyone wants to write about American wizards they are of course free to write their own book!" There are probably would-be authors all over the world ready to take her up on that, ummm, "invitation." Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 17 17:32:52 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:32:52 -0000 Subject: JRK is right! Give Voldemort respect. was: No more "Voldie" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98606 Mandy: > Most of us on this site refer to Voldemort as LV, Dumbledore as DD, > and J.K. Rowling as JRK, for the sake of short hand. These > shortening of names to initials, imo, are more acceptable because > they don't take away from the power of the name itself. Of course > JKR might disagree. > > Stepping of her soap box, > Mandy Sorry. Don't agree. Perhaps a poll is in order? I don't know that most use "LV"--I've seen a LOT of Voldy/Voldie and other variations (Lord Thingy for one). VOLDEMORT takes more effort to write out than Voldy; that's the ONLY reason I use it. I didn't attribute any significance to the name when I chose to use it; I didn't select it because it's cute or softened his image; I just liked the shortcut. Now, you're right that LV is even shorter, and I may switch to that! But it won't be because JKR said Voldie must stop. I *really* think that was a bit of a joke on her part. Siriusly Snapey Susan From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon May 17 17:41:48 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:41:48 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: >> ~~"All agreed to go to your aid at once. Professor Snape requested > that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at > headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at > any moment.~~ > > It was Snape who requested that Sirius stay behind. Not Dumbledore. > Dumbledore was not yet aware of the situation. At that time, but it was *my understanding* that Sirius was under a Standing Order from Dumbledore to SIT TIGHT. I'm sure Snape would have said something like, "You know how DD feels about this..." Something along those lines certainly, after the taunting. I'm sure Sirius got his licks in as well. Snape couldn't go to the DOM either, notice. Mel, who never, ever can be accused of making Snape the whipping boy. From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 17:45:21 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040517174521.67877.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98608 Potioncat: I wonder why Black wasn't ordered to stay behind. Looking at the list of participants available, Black is the best candidate to remain and brief DD. The others are trained Aurors and are in shape, better able to take on whatever situation they find at MoM. And, Black is already being used as bait, showing up there will make it harder on Harry, not easier. Potioncat animallover_11: I don't really think it would have mattered if DD himself order Sirius to stay behind. At that point I am sure that Sirius is thinking with his HEART not head. All he wants to do is get to the MoM to save Harry. He spent many years away from him and was just starting to really get to know him. Being Harry's Godfather he has now taken over the fathering role. I can't imagine a father not wanting to go and save their son. Sirius is Harry's connection to his father as Harry is Sirius connect to James. It is through this the have a very special bond. As much of a jerk that Snape can be...I am sure that he would not do anything to endanger Harry. He would realize that if Sirius showed up and something would have happened Harry would have a very difficult time with it. Snape I believe would swallow his hatred of Sirius for the protection of Harry. Potioncat is right in saying that all the members of the Order are ready to die for the greater good. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 17 17:48:01 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:48:01 -0000 Subject: Good Slytherins, one and all.... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > > > Eustace_Scrubb: > > I agree with those who think that JKR's notes about Theodore Nott > increase the chances that he'll turn up in some role in one of the > next two books. > > The real question is can one (or two or six) "Good Slytherins" > effect the unity of the four houses, ...edited... > > ...edited... > > Cheers, > > Eustace_Scrubb bboy_mn: In another part of this thread, it is pointed out that we have very little canon by which to judge Theodore Nott, but I say that lack of canon is the Canon by which we can attempt to judge him. Unless I'm mistake when Harry sees Nott with Draco and company in the Library, it is Hermione who reminds Harry of who Nott is. Harry can't have had much direct interaction with T.Nott or he would know who Nott is. That tells me that Nott is not following Draco's lead in persecuting, or at least, harrassing Harry. Harry, for the most part, only knows people who make it onto his radar screen, and for that to happen, there has to be some significant interaction between Harry and the person. Harry is well aware of he Creevy brothers are because Colin is a source of annoyance and embarassment for Harry. But there are many other Gryffindors that never make it into the story or onto Harry's radar screen. Equally, the majority of Slytherins never become know to Harry because, with the exception of laughing at Draco's antics, they leave Harry alone, and they also seem to leave Draco alone. Point...? Uniting the houses does not mean 100%. So, yes, one or two or six Slytherins joining the fight for the greater good does represent uniting the houses. No community is ever totally united. The main point regarding 'uniting' the houses is that the Slytherins are invited to join; they are not, for example, excluded from the DA Club as they were in OotP, and that some of them accept this invitation. Some of them are free and independant enough thinkers that they don't blindly follow the path or the person they are expected or assumed to follow. I still say the economically, Slytherins are far better off siding with Dumbledore than Voldemort. Oppressives regimes like the one I am sure Voldemort will create, eventually crumble under the weight of their own escalating corruption, greed, and oppression. Regardless of a few minor exception, history has shown us that corrupt and oppressive governments are doomed to failure. Tyranny is the architect of it's own doom, and I have to believe that there are some Slytherins smart enough and ambitions enough to see that. Just a thought. bboy_mn From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 17 18:30:38 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 18:30:38 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98610 Potioncat: > > What concerns me more on the issue of the Good Slytherin, is > JKR's statement that too many of the people on the chat she > attended identified with Slytherin. It really sounds like she > considers Slytherins the bad guys. < Pippin wrote: > Erm, that's not exactly what she said. > http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=63 > > "I was concerned to find that many of the moderators feel their > spiritual home is Slytherin" > > > I don't think there's any question but JKR believes that Gryffindor > values are spiritually superior to Slytherin ones and wants us to > think so too. That does not say that Slytherins themselves are > morally inferior to Gryffindors. Slytherins, though schooled to be > cunning, opportunistic and exclusionary, may just as freely > choose to serve a greater good, while Gryffindors are every bit as > capable of wrongdoing, despite that they ought to know better. > Potioncat again: Well, I think you and I may agree (?) that Slytherins can be as moral as Gryffindors or Gryffindors as amoral as Slytherins....my point is, quoted or paraphrased, it sounds to me that JKR sees the Slyterins as bad....Hatfields vrs McCoys, Robin Hood vrs King John, Lancasters vrs Yorks. A "good" side and a "bad" side. That's not how I want it turn out, you understand. I'm hoping she'll pull the rug out by having good Slytherins. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 17 18:34:15 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 18:34:15 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98611 Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > > I also wonder exactly how the scene between Theodore and Draco would > have worked, given that with very few exceptions (Chapter 1 of SS/PS, > are there others that weren't at least part of Harry's dreams), the > reader sees the story from Harry's viewpoint. It seems unlikely that > Harry would have present for this meeting and doesn't seem to fit in > with any of his dream patterns. Maybe that's why it was cut? x Potioncat: To tell you the truth, when I read that, I wondered if it was really a JKR site! It would be great if that's one of the bits we get to see as an aside. Boy, I love seeing deleted scenes in movies but never in my wildest dreams did I expect to see them in books! Potioncat From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon May 17 18:33:13 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 18:33:13 -0000 Subject: Good Slytherins, one and all.... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98612 > > Eustace_Scrubb: > > > > I agree with those who think that JKR's notes about Theodore Nott > > increase the chances that he'll turn up in some role in one of the > > next two books. > > > > The real question is can one (or two or six) "Good Slytherins" > > effect the unity of the four houses, ...edited... > > > > ...edited... > > > > Cheers, > > > > Eustace_Scrubb > > bboy_mn: > Uniting the houses does not mean 100%. So, yes, one or two or six > Slytherins joining the fight for the greater good does represent > uniting the houses. No community is ever totally united. > > The main point regarding 'uniting' the houses is that the Slytherins > are invited to join; they are not, for example, excluded from the DA > Club as they were in OotP, and that some of them accept this > invitation. Some of them are free and independant enough thinkers that > they don't blindly follow the path or the person they are expected or > assumed to follow. > I agree. It seems to me that, once there is one Slytherin 6th/7th year student who is independent-minded enough to break with the Malfoy junta, it will have two very powerful effects on the balance of power among the students: 1) Malfoy's dominance will be challenged from within his own house, which will be a humiliating and devastating blow for a bully such as he 2) The Trio, the DA, and the rest of the students will suddenly have to begin judging Slytherins as individuals, not as a FlintMalfoyCrabbeGoyleParkinsonBullstrode monolith Both of these effects will tend to increase overall school unity. Regarding the 100% comment above, which I believe is also quite astute: it is good to note that, while most of the non-Slytherin characters we know best at the school were in the DA, this still represented a tiny proportion of the student body--36 students out of what JKR tells us is 750 or so Hufflepuffs, Raveclaws and Gryffindors. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon May 17 18:49:43 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 18:49:43 -0000 Subject: Sharing names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98613 A few days ago, there was a little discussion about the Riddle family, with posters clearing up confusions over just who was who, and who killed whom. It's easy to get confused, as there are two Tom Riddles to keep track of. And then it occurred to me...how very odd that that would be the case! It's unusual in Rowling's books for a father and son to have the same name. In fact, I can think of only one other example: Barty Crouch Sr. and Jr. Now, it was significant for the plot that the two Crouches shared a name, because it succeeded in throwing a red herring across our path when Harry saw the name on the Marauder's Map. This leads me to believe that such an unusual occurrence in the Riddle family might ALSO be of use, plot-wise. Can anyone think of any reasons why Tom Riddle would have to have the same name as his father? Because I really do think that it's going to turn out to advance the plot somehow. Wanda From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon May 17 19:02:56 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:02:56 -0000 Subject: Love & Snape (was love between Snape & Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98614 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" wrote: > Kneasy: > <> > > Sigune: > Ah. Well. Here is Sigune the Severe ready to make an attempt, however > poor ? I did read the posts you referred to, and I have a slight > problem with the reasoning. OF COURSE I know you are going to wriggle > your way out of it, but I just want to see you do it :). > > I have ? in case anyone doesn't know yet ? a *huge* problem with the > thought of Snape having any love relationship at all; which means I > also have a problem with one of your pet theories, namely that of > Snape having a family and that family being killed by Lord Thingy > (seems I'm not allowed to say `Voldie' anymore, so I'll stick to > Fudge's suggestion, which IMO is even better ;-). > Anyway ? I entirely agree with your description of Snape in post > 98434: > > Whatever anyone can say about Snape, we have never seen him > affectionate, amiable or kind. He styles himself (I believe in > conscious styling on his part) an Evil Wizard ? he looks the > stereotype, doesn't he, and he could easily change that. He seems to > deliberately keep people off. It seems like he *wants* to be > disliked, while at the same time craving for recognition ? > recognition for his powers, his services, his cleverness, but never > for his personality. > Sigune > ~ready for her post to be torn to bits Torn to bits? Now would I do that? I'm bemused by your delightfully old-fashioned idea that (even in Snape's case) marriage = love. How quaint! You old romantic, you! Which is one thing Snape isn't. IMO his ideas on marriage are even more old-fashioned than yours. He'd see a wife as little better than a chattel. As to *why* he got married - well, accidents happen in the best regulated of families and perhaps the incident behind the green- house had unexpected consequences; or maybe it was a 'political' or 'promotion enhancing' move. Maybe her family had money; maybe (and this is going back to a suggestion made way back, long before I joined), the DEs were embarking on a pureblood breeding programme. Be that as it may, he would see it as *his* family and he would brook no interference from anyone in his private affairs. For Voldy (or one of his hench-wizards) to intrude into his home, to take something or someone that was his, would be a insult he would find unbearable. (Think Italian, then multiply x10.) He would have to respond, his self-respect would demand it. Snape is a proud man and it's very, very bad news to hit a man in his pride. Whatever his feelings for Florence he'll feel he let them down, he failed as head of the household. Now he's looking for retribution. He has something to prove, if only to himself. This is besides any feelings he may have had for Snape!Son. And you never know, someone may have slipped him a love potion when he wasn't looking. Kneasy From kristin1778 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 14:07:03 2004 From: kristin1778 at yahoo.com (kristin1778) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:07:03 -0000 Subject: No more "Voldie" nickname? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98615 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > It never even came to me to think that Rowling will seriously order > her fans around. :o) Please, please somebody agree with me? > Anybody? :o) > > > Alla I think Rowling was just teasing. I've even seen some people argue that she was being serious in her response to the question about Lily being a death eater. I really, really don't think so. I think some people are already upset with her about things that have happened in the books, or about where they think she's headed with the books, and it's causing them to read a negative tone into everything she says. Kristin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon May 17 19:10:27 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:10:27 -0000 Subject: JRK is right! Give Voldemort respect. was: No more "Voldie" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98616 > Mandy: > > Most of us on this site refer to Voldemort as LV, Dumbledore as DD, > > and J.K. Rowling as JRK, for the sake of short hand. These > > shortening of names to initials, imo, are more acceptable because > > they don't take away from the power of the name itself. Of course > > JKR might disagree. > > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > Sorry. Don't agree. Perhaps a poll is in order? I don't know that > most use "LV"--I've seen a LOT of Voldy/Voldie and other variations > (Lord Thingy for one). VOLDEMORT takes more effort to write out than > Voldy; that's the ONLY reason I use it. I didn't attribute any > significance to the name when I chose to use it; I didn't select it > because it's cute or softened his image; I just liked the shortcut. > Now, you're right that LV is even shorter, and I may switch to that! > But it won't be because JKR said Voldie must stop. I *really* think > that was a bit of a joke on her part. > Neri now: Heh, an interesting discussion... I'm guilty of using "Voldy" myself occasionally, thought I usually use LV for short. I think JKR said "this got to stop" half jokingly and half seriously. She knows very well she can't order us around, but she probably doesn't like to be reminded that she didn't manage to create a really scary arch villain. Voldy (sorry JKR) is rather a cardboard villain. Even when he murders baby Harry's parents, or trying to possess Harry, he is not really scary. I think the only time in the books when he had managed to scare me is when he peeked out of the back of Quirrell's head. Now that was scary... But as a whole, this fancy "Voldemort" that Tom invented for himself, and with the "Lord" on top of that, is rather pompous, so no wonder we like to demean him back. Note that we very rarely use pet names for Snape (some use "Sevvy", but it is not common) or even Lucius Malfoy. Bellatrix is sometimes only "Bella", I think for similar reasons that Voldemort is sometime only "Voldy". She has a similar cardboard quality to her villainy. She's just too pompous to be real. So, after giving this matter my full consideration, I reserve the right to use "Voldy" whenever I feel like it (sorry Voldy...) Neri From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon May 17 19:21:20 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:21:20 -0000 Subject: Sharing names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > A few days ago, there was a little discussion about the Riddle > family, with posters clearing up confusions over just who was who, > and who killed whom. It's easy to get confused, as there are two > Tom Riddles to keep track of. And then it occurred to me...how very > odd that that would be the case! It's unusual in Rowling's books > for a father and son to have the same name. In fact, I can think of > only one other example: Barty Crouch Sr. and Jr. Now, it was > significant for the plot that the two Crouches shared a name, > because it succeeded in throwing a red herring across our path when > Harry saw the name on the Marauder's Map. This leads me to believe > that such an unusual occurrence in the Riddle family might ALSO be > of use, plot-wise. Can anyone think of any reasons why Tom Riddle > would have to have the same name as his father? Because I really do > think that it's going to turn out to advance the plot somehow. > > Wanda Antosha: Honestly, I think the most obvious reason is the one that Tom Jr. himself gave Harry in the Chamber of Secrets: He hated is father, hated his father's name, with which he was saddled, and therefore changed his name to... well, I can't say Voldie any more, but, you know, Lord Thingy. This IS a red herring--if any of you figured out that nice-seeming Tom-in-the-diary was actually chief-head-bad-guy-incarnate without peaking or being told, then you probably also figured out that Darth Vader was Luke's dad. (Ooops. Spoiler. Hope there's nobody out there in the universe who didn't know that one already...) It's funny, I have the low distinction of having written some HP fanfic. One story involves Harry going back in time to retrieve an item of Tom Sr's. You wouldn't believe the amount of confusion that engendered. It never occurred to me that people wouldn't remember that there were TWO Tom Riddles.... From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 17 19:37:46 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:37:46 -0000 Subject: What JKR's up to (was: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98618 Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > "I think Carolyn is definitely onto something with this > > assessment of one of the purposes of JKR's website overhaul. > > Did she do it to bring some fun to the fans? I believe so, yes. > > Did she also do it so that she could "gently" debunk some ideas > > and shoot down a few theories? I believe she is doing this, too, > > yes." Jim wrote: > Carolyn is on to something, and so are you. JKR is also gently > reminding us whose universe this is. I imagine JKR sees some of the > theories floating around and wonders what planet they came from. SSS: > >"I think this [debunking some theories] will tick some people > > off. I've already heard concern (and maybe a stronger word should > > be used) being expressed that JKR is TELLING people how to react > > or feel about characters and situations." Jim wrote: > Are you referring to the "Voldie" thing? SSS again now: Actually, Jim, I mean more than the Voldie thing. That, too, of course, but the comment she made about the moderators at MuggleNet thinking Slytherin was their spiritual home, deciding "for us" which pieces of fanfic art are the most accurate representations of Remus & Sirius, earlier comments in the World Book Day chat that some people are entirely too fond of Draco, even just that she's spending time telling us some things that won't happen. These are some of the concerns I'm hearing. I don't really have problems with any of this; other people do. That's all I was saying. Call me a simpleton or whatever you will, but the truth is that I'm not as much of a critic [in at least two senses of that word] as many others here are. I enjoy reading theories, I enjoy hearing people's takes on various clues, I enjoy contemplating people's ideas for a perfect ending in their opinions; but I'm also just happy with whatever JKR chooses to give us. I might find parts of the story which I think are weak, I might wish she'd flesh a character out more fully, it *is* getting hard to take Harry's not asking questions, and if she doesn't make the ending clear, I will be annoyed. But all in all, these are minor things. It's her work, it's her effort, they're her ideas. I'll take what she gives us. And I think it's fun that she's debunking some things now, so we can focus our attention on other things. Siriusly Snapey Susan, holding out for an elegantly simple ending. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 19:52:23 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:52:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98619 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Jen earlier: > > And re: Dumbledore and his role in Sirius' death, DD believes > he played a role in it and I think he's right. Dumbledore > overstates his guilt--after all he can't force Sirius to stay if he > chooses otherwise--but DD *continually* underestimates the > emotional factors involved in human decision-making. This is a > mistake Dumbledore makes over and over with all the people > under his leadership. For that reason, he did play a role in Sirius' > death, even though the burden of responsibity lies with Sirius. > > > Pippin earlier: > I don't quite understand this. Dumbledore takes responsibility for > Sirius's death because if Dumbledore had told Harry everything, > then Harry would have known that Voldemort was trying to trick > him into getting the prophecy, and he would never have gone to > the Ministry, or he would have gone more warily. > > It was because of concern for Harry's emotional welfare that > Dumbledore kept this information back. He did not want to > burden him with the knowledge that only he, Harry, could defeat > the Dark Lord. That's quite a lot to lay on someone who's not > quite sixteen, isn't it? > > I don't think Dumbledore underestimated the toll being cooped > up at the Dursleys, or in Grimmauld Place, would take on his > charges. He knew it. The twinkle in his eyes goes right out as he > leaves Harry at Privet Drive in Book One. From what he says > about Sirius, he knew perfectly well that Sirius was suffering > emotionally at Grimmauld Place. But the purpose of the Order is > not to keep Harry, Sirius, Snape or anybody else from emotional > pain, if that is the price of thwarting evil. There are some things > worth suffering for. > > The purpose of the order is to defeat Voldemort. That means > that Harry has to be kept alive, and the people Harry loves have > to be protected from being taken hostage. If there was a safer > place than Privet Drive, or Grimmauld Place, don't you think > Dumbledore would have used it? > > Pippin Well, the only thing I can say that even if emotional wellfare of the Order members is not their commander first priority, it should be somewhere on his list of priorities. Sorry, I don't buy that Dumbledore could not find ANYTHING useful for Sirius to do. He thought it was perfectly fine for Sirius to go notify Old Crowd after GoF, now suddenly in OoP it is not safe for him to go out as a Padfoot? And sorry for being repetitive but such things as invisibility cloaks do exist for a reason. :o) And, sorry for being repetitive again, but no, I am not completely sure whether Privet Drive is the safest place for Harry all along. Alla From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon May 17 19:51:35 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:51:35 -0000 Subject: Sharing names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98620 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > Honestly, I think the most obvious reason is the one that Tom Jr. himself gave Harry in the > Chamber of Secrets: He hated is father, hated his father's name, with which he was > saddled, and therefore changed his name to... well, I can't say Voldie any more, but, you > know, Lord Thingy. > That's not quite what I was getting at. What I mean is that JKR invented all these characters - the names they have are the names SHE gave them. Some names are just ordinary names: Bill, Charlie, Ron, Percy, Harry, etc. Some names are more "invented" and kind of signal the sort of person they belong to: Slytherin & Draco (with their snake imagery), Malfoy, Filch, Peeves, etc. Then there are these two cases alone, where a parent and child have the same name. If it had been established as a wizarding tradition - if the first Weasley son was named Arthur, or Harry's father was also Harry, or it was even just a pureblood tradition, I wouldn't have remarked on it. But here comes this break in the usual pattern, and lo and behold, for one of them it turns out that the names were done that way for a *reason*. As Hercule Poirot says, when someone who always does something one way suddenly does it differently, it often indicates that something out of the ordinary is happening. What young Tom Riddle eventually does with his name in the story doesn't explain why he has that name in the first place - why that name and no other. Only the author knows that. If it was merely to establish a link to his father, well, they already share the same surname. If he had to be called "Tom" in order to preserve the "I am Lord Voldemort" anagram, that doesn't explain why his father couldn't have been George Riddle. The fact is, having two characters with the same name DOES create confusion, as you discovered in your own fiction, and yet Rowling did it anyway. I'm sure she didn't just run dry one day and figure, "Oh, hell, it's too hot out to think of a new name, I'll just call him Tom, and nobody will notice." (Reminds me of a MST3K episode, where a movie editor was named Leon Leon - 'Must have had the laziest parents in the world!' was the comment.) No, I think there's a purpose to this, I just can't figure out what it could be. Not surprising - I doubt many people figured out the trick with the names in GoF until it was explained. Maybe your time travel idea is on track - I've always had a weak spot for time travel as one possible element in the evolution of this story, and it may turn out to be significant. Wanda From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon May 17 19:53:42 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:53:42 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What JKR's up to (was: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002c01c43c48$a8ed1c80$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 98621 SSS But all in all, these are minor things. It's her work, it's her effort, they're her ideas. I'll take what she gives us. And I think it's fun that she's debunking some things now, so we can focus our attention on other things. Siriusly Snapey Susan, holding out for an elegantly simple ending. Sherry replies: I'm with you on that. I like reading all the theories, but for the most part, I just want to see where JKR takes us. It's the world she has created, and she will go wherever she wants, without taking our wishes into consideration. I remember reading the authorized biography of Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star trek. In the 70's and 80's there were many books being published as "Star Trek" novels that showed little to no effort to be faithful to the "star trek Universe". Roddenberry demanded and got the right to approve anything that was published as a Trek novel, so that he could ensure it all stayed true to his view of the universe he had created. JKR as the author and creator, can go down any road she wants, and I just can't wait to be running after her, following the path she sets for us, to discover the magic she gives us. I'm glad she's debunking some theories, so we can all concentrate on the ones she leaves us to ponder. I'll be very unhappy, if any of the trio die in the end, but on the other hand, I'll have to shut up and take it, since it's her world. Sigh. Sherry G From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 20:03:12 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:03:12 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <> > > Just to add two more points to what SSS said: Snape told Dumbledore > what had happened, explaining exactly why he had stopped the > occlumency lessons, as we know from Dumbledore's long conversation > with Harry at the end of OoP. If Dumbledore had given him a direct > order at that point--you *will* resume occlumency lessons--Snape would > have done so. But Dumbledore evidently agreed with Snape that the > lessons weren't working and were perhaps doing more harm than good. Carol, are you basing these conclusionhs on one sentence from Dumbledore: "I am aware of it"? If not, could you provide more canon for : a. When Dumbledore learned of the end of Occlumency lessons? I argued before that he could have learned about it after MoM battle. b. That if Dumbledore told Snape, he would have continued the lessons? As I can see it so far, we don't know that Snape disobeyed direct Dumbledore's order when he ended lessons, but we also don't know that Snape would have agree to continue. I think it will be very reasonable speculation to say that Snape's answer in responce to Dumbledore's demand would be something like that: "I would rather die than teach this Potter brat again" :o) > Carol, who thinks that perhaps animosity against Snape and affection > for Sirius are getting in the way of Susan's (not SSS's) reading of > the events at the end of OoP. Alla, who does not believe in ESE! Snape and who is a Sirius' fan, but who also thinks that end of Occlumency lessons gives enough reason to suspect Snape of foul play. From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon May 17 20:05:18 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:05:18 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sharing names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002d01c43c4a$478f5a00$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 98623 Wanda, What young Tom Riddle eventually does with his name in the story doesn't explain why he has that name in the first place - why that name and no other. Only the author knows that. If it was merely to establish a link to his father, well, they already share the same surname. If he had to be called "Tom" in order to preserve the "I am Lord Voldemort" anagram, that doesn't explain why his father couldn't have been George Riddle. Now me, Sherry: I always just thought that JKR had come up with Lord Voldemort for her villain, so Tom's name had to fit that. I think, going by Tom/Voldemort's character and hatred of his father, that being named after the father he so despises would have rankled very much. It added to his hatred in a way, that having George Riddle for a father wouldn't have. I just think it is a way to help show the intensity of Tom's feelings about that muggle father. Sherry G -----Original Message----- From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Mon May 17 16:38:04 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (ivogun) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:38:04 -0000 Subject: No more "Voldie" nickname? In-Reply-To: <15c.34b1a74b.2dd999f7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98624 > Cassie: > > Maybe we're just too scared to say The Name now and "Voldie" is just part of > the transition period. I happen to think "Lord Thingy" is much cuter, btw. > Well, if LD thinks "Lord Thingy sounds cute, he may very well have Fudge murdered. Ivogun From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 18:18:11 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 11:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Not so ESE:Lupin In-Reply-To: <1084806029.8468.98037.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040517181811.59271.qmail@web50301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98625 So many Lupin supporters have used the JKR quote about wishing she had someone like him as a teacher to dispute the ESE theory. Now, I still think it's valid, of course. Why would she want someone who's ever so evil as a professor? But there's more to the quote that, I believe, we've been missing: "I was also playing with that [intolerance] when I created Professor Lupin, who has a condition which is contagious, of course, and so people are very frightened of him; and I really like Professor Lupin as a character because he's someone that also has a failing, because although he is a wonderful teacher (one I myself would have liked to have had as a teacher) and a WONDERFUL MAN, he does like to be liked and that's where he slips up. He's been disliked so often that he's always so pleased to have friends, so he cuts them an awful lot of slack." -- J.K. Rowling (RAH) And there it is. Emphasis mine. We all know she picks and chooses her words with great care, and she does not say he is a wonderful ACTOR, nor does she say he is a NICE man ("nice is different than good"), nor a TALENTED man, and she certainly makes no intimation that we should be watching him, as she does for Snape... I can't recall where to find that quote, though. She says he is a "wonderful man" with a flaw. Now, he's found people who like him already: Harry, the Weasleys, Hermione, Dumbledore, Tonks, etc. Why would he screw that up and betray them? (Though I shudder at the fanon that ships Remus/Tonks! ::shudders::) Sure, he has a failing, something that causes him to "[slip] up," but I certainly don't think Jo would call him a "wonderful man" if he were siding or contemplating siding with Voldemort. We've already seen him slip up--he was afraid to tell his friends to leave Snape alone, he was afraid to tell Dumbledore about Animagus Sirius... perhaps he'll slip up again in book six or seven, but I think that "[slip] up" is a rather light term for betrayal by someone who is ever so evil. If this has already been brought up, I apologize. Justine, who realizes that the quote from Into the Woods is a bit ironic --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon May 17 20:28:22 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:28:22 -0000 Subject: JKR's opinon. was What JKR's up to In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98626 > Jim wrote: > JKR is also gently reminding us whose universe this is. > SSS: >"I think this [debunking some theories] will tick some people > off. I've already heard concern (and maybe a stronger word should be used) being expressed that JKR is TELLING people how to react or feel about characters and situations." > Jim wrote: > Are you referring to the "Voldie" thing? > SSS again now: > Actually, Jim, I mean more than the Voldie thing. That, too, of > course, but the comment she made about the moderators at MuggleNet > thinking Slytherin was their spiritual home, deciding "for us" >which pieces of fanfic art are the most accurate representations of >Remus & Sirius, earlier comments in the World Book Day chat that >some people are entirely too fond of Draco, even just that she's >spending time telling us some things that won't happen. These are >some of the concerns I'm hearing. I don't really have problems with >any of this; other people do. That's all I was saying. Mandy here: I agree with SSS. Potter is JKR's universe that she is putting out into the world and inviting us to take a share in. She has the right to guide us in any direction that she chooses, and if people don't want to hear or accept the guidelines that make up her stories universe, they can always stop reading HP. JKR is just posting her own opinions, about her own story, on her own web site, and I don't see any difference between that, and any one of us coming up with a theory and backing it up with canon. We all want to share our ideas, theories and choices, that's why we're here, and I'm certain we all secretly desire to have our theories proved right in the end, even if we don't mind being proved wrong. She is the ultimate authority on the subject, she is the only one who can say no afraid not, this is what really happened. JKR has take the time and money to create her own web page to expand our perception surrounding the it, and if she wants to scold us, humorously, for using a name she doesn't like, or associating too closely with Slytherin and it's alumni, she can go right ahead. It's up to us what we do with that information. I get so tired of living in a world where people get offended by others taking a stand or having an opinion. If JKR is not allowed to voice an opinion on her own creation and how others view it, what right do any of us have to have an opinion? JKR knows we are all going to ultimately make up our own minds as to how we see the Potterverse and all who inhabit it. It our choices that make us who we are, right? ;-) Cheers Mandy, who agrees that the reckless use of the name 'Voldie' should stop, BUT is also proud to be a card carrying Slytherin. And I love being entirly too fond of the Malfoy boys. ;-) From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 19:11:46 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (moonmyyst13) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:11:46 -0000 Subject: Lily and James Job and Hagrid's House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98627 I am new to this chat board and am really enjoying it - thank you. I have 2 quesitons that some friends of mine and I are wondering about: 1) We all assume that Lily and James were Aurors. Were they? If not, what were their jobs? They made a good bit of money to leave for Harry unless that is money handed down from James' side of the family. 2) What house was Hagrid in? In CoS, Tom confronts Hagrid in his room, thus leading one to believe that he is in Slytherin, or else Tom would not have access to his room. Is this correct or have we missed something? Thank you for your input!! "moonmyyst13" From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 17 20:45:43 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:45:43 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > Antosha: > I totally agree with your point--my first reaction when seeing the > info that JKR shared regarding Mr. Nott was that, at the very > least, we're going to be seeing a lot more of the weedy-looking boy > in the books to come; she's clearly thinking about him a great deal. > > Having said that, I do want to point out that the only certain > canon sighting of TN was in OotP, right after Rita Skeeter's > interview with Harry appeared in the Quibbler. Nott was hanging out > with Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, staring menacingly in Harry's > direction. There a couple of other likely Nott sightings, but so > far, that's his only real appearance. So, while I agree with you, I > don't think we can quite say that TN is entirely free of Draco's > influence.... Geoff: Actually, canon doesn't support your view. 'If anything more was needed to complete Harry's happiness, it was the reaction he got from Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. He saw them with their heads together later that afternoon in the library; they were with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott. They looked round at Harry as he browsed the shelves for the book he needed on PArtial Vanishment: Goyle cracked his knuckles threateningly and Malfoy whispered something undoubtedly malevolent to Crabbe.' (OOTP "Seen and Unforeseen" p.514 UK edition) Nott? No reaction recorded. No threats, scowls or anything.... From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 17 20:46:45 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:46:45 -0000 Subject: JKR's opinon. was What JKR's up to In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > Mandy here: > > If JKR is not allowed to voice an opinion on her > own creation and how others view it, what right do any of us have to > have an opinion? > > JKR knows we are all going to ultimately make up our own minds as to > how we see the Potterverse and all who inhabit it. It our choices > that make us who we are, right? ;-) > Of course, JKR is allowed to voice her opinions about our treatment of her creation, but the only reason I started this thread was because I started to doubt my ability to understand a joke,when I see one. I am glad I am not the only one who thinks she was joking. > Cheers Mandy, who agrees that the reckless use of the name 'Voldie' > should stop, BUT is also proud to be a card carrying Slytherin. And I > love being entirly too fond of the Malfoy boys. ;-) Alla, who loves using both "Voldie" and "Lord Thingy" and plans on continuing doing so. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 17 20:53:36 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:53:36 -0000 Subject: JKR is right! Give Voldemort respect. was: No more "Voldie" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: Mandy: > I agree with JKR on this one, and an glad that hardly anyone on this > site uses that particular name in reference to Lord Voldemort. I've > always found it silly and it doesn't in any way describe the villain > worthy of our hero's trials and tribulations. > > `Volide' is too cute, cuddly and imo disrespectful, and if we're > going to honor JKR's works by discussing as much as we do, I think we > should respect her wishes. JKR wants Voldemort to maintain an aurora > of menace and terror and to dumb him down with a silly nickname is > wrong and disrespectful to the character and authors intention. Geoff: I can recall that UK troops at least made up songs about Hitler during WWII which were disrespectful, silly and very funny; but I don't think that they made him cuddly and cute. BTW, why shouldn't we be disrespectful to Voldemort? I wasn't aware that he deserved any..... From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 17 20:55:51 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:55:51 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98631 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Sorry, I don't buy that Dumbledore could not find ANYTHING >useful for Sirius to do. > > He thought it was perfectly fine for Sirius to go notify Old Crowd after GoF, now suddenly in OoP it is not safe for him to go out as a Padfoot?< > > And sorry for being repetitive but such things as invisibility >cloaks do exist for a reason. :o) There was only one invisibility cloak available (Moody's spare was lost with Podmore) and it was being used to guard the Prophecy. I don't agree that it was safe for Sirius to notifiy the old crowd--it was a calculated risk that was undertaken only because there was an immediate danger and no time to set up safer ways of communication. All the surviving members of the old crowd had to be alerted of Voldemort's return ASAP. Voldemort now had the means to go after them and no need to hide the source of his information. Once his task was done, Sirius was instructed to lie low at Lupin's. Are you saying that Sirius only wanted to fight because he was feeling useless? I thought he felt useless because he thought fighting was the only worthwhile thing to do. And he couldn't be used as a spy because: a) the Padfoot disguise was blown b) As a human, he had the wrong personality for it. He couldn't resist drawing attention to himself -- kind of like Harry throwing mud at Malfoy in Hogsmeade. But I could be wrong. Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 17 20:57:44 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:57:44 -0000 Subject: Jk on Hermione's Loves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98632 vmonte responds: > > > I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that the screen > > > writer was given permission by JKR to play up the attraction > > > between Ron and Hermione. Sienna: > > I saw the CoS interview with Steven Kloves and JKR and she > > basically says (paraphrasing) that Steven alludes to feelings > > between the *three* of them that she doesn't touch upon until GoF. SSSusan: And as that's the book in which the Yule Ball occurs, wherein Ron is jealous of Krum and Hermione ends up telling Ron that, next time, if he wants to ask her to a dance, he should ask her early, I've assumed that THAT was the set of feelings from GoF that got played up early. But, of course, that's just this one SHIPper's impression. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 17 21:03:29 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 21:03:29 -0000 Subject: Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98633 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: bboy_mn: > As far as Tom's 'song bird' comment, I think to some extent he was > trying to ridicule Harry and undermine his confidence. He would > logically have, and later demonstrates that he has knowledge of the > Phoenix. But given that Harry was a young boy, and that Tom had a > wand, a Phoenix would not seem like much of a weapon. Phoenix has > great defensive capability in the sense that it is, in a manner of > speaking, immortal, but it doesn't have much in the sense of 'attack' > or offensive capability. Geoff: I think we have already touched on this approach recently in the discussion regarding Tom's reference to Hagrid as "Rubeus" in the Diary scene in COS where it was suggested that Tom did it to belittle Hagrid and suggest his own superiority. Attempted ridicule seems to be a weapon of Voldemort. Another instance where he tries it is in GOF: '"We are not playing hide-and-seek, Harry," said Voldemprt's soft, cold, voice, drawing nearer as the Death Eaters laughed. "You cannot hide from me. Does this mean you are tired of our duel? Does this mean that you would prefer me to finish it now, Harry? Come out, Harry... come out and play, then....."' (GOF "Priori Incantatem" pp.574-75 UK edition) From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon May 17 21:10:44 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 21:10:44 -0000 Subject: Lily and James Job and Hagrid's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98634 moonmyyst13 wrote: > I am new to this chat board and am really enjoying it - thank you. > I have 2 quesitons that some friends of mine and I are wondering > about: > 1) We all assume that Lily and James were Aurors. Were they? If > not, what were their jobs? They made a good bit of money to leave > for Harry unless that is money handed down from James' side of the > family. > 2) What house was Hagrid in? In CoS, Tom confronts Hagrid in his > room, thus leading one to believe that he is in Slytherin, or else > Tom would not have access to his room. Is this correct or have we > missed something? Mandy here: Welcome. There is no canon to support that Lily and James were Aurors, however is has been speculated that one or both might have been in training to be Aurours when they died. Although imo, Lily and James just didn't have enough time to fight LV, get married, have a baby and to be in school training to be Aurours. (According to Tonks, Auror training takes about 2-3 years I believe. Sorry I don't have my books handy.) Good question about Hagrid's house. I've just finished CoS again and I hadn't thought about where Riddle confronted Hagrid about Aragog. I assumed it was one of the many unused rooms in the castle. It seems unlikely to me that Hagrid was in Slytherin, as he is such a nice person and it's looking less likely that there are any nice people in Slytherin at all. I, personally, would put Hargid in Huffelpuff, as a hardworking underdog, but his huge loyalty toward Gryiffindor points to the fact that he may have spent his brief stint at Hogwarts in Gryiffindor tower. Cheers, Mandy From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 17 21:15:17 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 21:15:17 -0000 Subject: Lily and James Job and Hagrid's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "moonmyyst13" wrote: moonmyyst13: > 2) What house was Hagrid in? In CoS, Tom confronts Hagrid in his > room, thus leading one to believe that he is in Slytherin, or else > Tom would not have access to his room. Is this correct or have we > missed something? Geoff: Looking at the description at the end of the chapter "The Very Secret Diary" in COS, the action takes place near the dungeons. I get the feeling that this is /not/ Hagrid's room but somewhere which he has chosen to hide Aragog. Anybody agree or disagree? From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon May 17 21:23:55 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 21:23:55 -0000 Subject: JKR is right! Give Voldemort respect. was: No more "Voldie" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98636 > Geoff: > I can recall that UK troops at least made up songs about Hitler > during WWII which were disrespectful, silly and very funny; but I > don't think that they made him cuddly and cute. > > BTW, why shouldn't we be disrespectful to Voldemort? I wasn't aware > that he deserved any..... Mandy here: I though that might come up. Voldemort himself may not deserve respect, I do think he is a murdering bastard, who should be flayed alive for his crimes against humanity. But his persona within the Potterverse as Arch Super Villain Lord Voldemort, the nemesis of Harry Potter should be treated with respect. Otherwise we weaken our Hero Harry by weakening his enemy. I will add that I do think that Voldemort is one of the weaker villains in the story. All the HP villains, with the exception of Snape, are rather 2 dimensional, and out of all the 2 dimensional villains both Lucius Malfoy and Bellatrix LeStrange come across as more deadly and scary than Voldemort. But Voldemort is the Big Boss whether I like it or not, and he's the one who's going to be in the final show down with Harry at the end. So I want him to be great. Terrible .yes, but great. cheers, Mandy From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon May 17 21:50:51 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 21:50:51 -0000 Subject: Lily and James Job and Hagrid's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98637 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "moonmyyst13" > wrote: > > moonmyyst13: > > > 2) What house was Hagrid in? In CoS, Tom confronts Hagrid in his > > room, thus leading one to believe that he is in Slytherin, or else > > Tom would not have access to his room. Is this correct or have we > > missed something? > > Geoff: > Looking at the description at the end of the chapter "The Very Secret > Diary" in COS, the action takes place near the dungeons. I get the > feeling that this is /not/ Hagrid's room but somewhere which he has > chosen to hide Aragog. > > Anybody agree or disagree? Yes, having just read this passage, the confrontation occurs near Harry's potions classroom. Aragog says that he never saw any other parts of the castle besides the cupboard where he was hidden. And I believe that JKR said that Hagrid was in Gryffindor, in one of her chats. Meri From abigailnus at yahoo.com Mon May 17 22:03:27 2004 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 22:03:27 -0000 Subject: JKR's opinon. was What JKR's up to In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98638 > Mandy wrote: > Potter is JKR's universe that she is putting out > into the world and inviting us to take a share in. She has the right > to guide us in any direction that she chooses, and if people don't > want to hear or accept the guidelines that make up her stories > universe, they can always stop reading HP. Yes and no. While it is certainly true that the Potterverse is JKR's creation, and that within that universe she is god, it doesn't follow that that world belongs exclusively to her. Look around you. The 11,000+ members of HPfGU don't just like Harry Potter, they don't even just love it. They love the books so much that they have actively sought out a place where they could discuss them with other people who also love the books. And sure, most of started with some very basic questions, maybe one or two pithy observations, and a thirst for knowledge, but very few of us stayed there. Within a few months of joining HPfGU, or just about any HP discussion group, most members are spinning elaborate theories and analyzing characters. This isn't passive participation. This is fandom, and as anyone who has spent any time with any fandom anywhere knows, the characteristic that sets fandom apart from your average group of enthusiasts, fandom's escape velocity, if you will, is the point where the community appropriates the work as its own. I'm a former X-Files fan, and I spent a lot more time than was strictly good for me hanging around XF newsgroups in the mid-90s. It only took a short immersion in the fan community to become convinced that we, the fans, had a better grasp on the characters and the themes of the show than its writers and creators (of course, when discussing The X-Files, a show managed by manipulative liars who constantly ran their own show into the ground rather than infuse it with emotional honesty and continuity, that might actually be true, but back to the subject at hand). This might seem presumptuous, and of course it is, but reading just a few messages on HPfGU will show you that we have done the same thing. Fandom immerses itself in a made up world, whether that world is similar to our own but contains a few imaginary people, or whether it is a complete fantasy. I can never know if that immersion is deeper than the one that an author goes through when he or she creates that world, but I am certain that it is no less deep, and yet fundamentally different. JKR wrote the story of Harry Potter. That story didn't leap full-formed into her head, but neither was it revealed to her as a story in linear progression, with a beginning, a middle, and an end. She created it, and so she must have had some fundamental idea of the story she wanted to tell while, and even before, she was writing it. We are hearing the story, and so we are only slowly learning what it is as we hear it. These are diametrically different methods of ingesting information. And then, of course, there's the fact that the story that JKR thinks she's telling may not be the one that each of us hears. A fannish approach to Harry Potter is in effect a dismantling of JKR's careful creation. Sometimes we find cracks and fittings. Sometimes our own backgrounds and preferences influence how we see the characters and what we believe will happen to them. Sometimes we stumble on the truth, but more often we create something of our own, and call it the truth. Fandom is not passive, it is its own act of creation, one that JKR has no control over, nor any right to control. Whether or not she realizes this or approves of this is beside the point. There is an aspect of Harry Potter that belongs to the hearts and minds of the people who read and love and contemplate the books, and where they congregate, they make their own stories. It is no accident, I think, that JKR was ignored on the forum she posted to. Of course, this attitude isn't unique to fandom. In literary analysis, the author's opinion on his or her own work is rarely taken into consideration. Authorial intent should be made apparent through the work, or not at all. Robert Frost vehemently denied that his poem Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening expressed a desire for death, but that is how that poem was read by many. JKR created her characters, and so in a way she knows them better than we ever will. But if we see something in those characters that she may not have intended to put there? JKR doesn't like Draco Malfoy, but some of us find him interesting or pitiable. Are we wrong? Mandy is right to say that JKR has the same right as any of us to express her opinions about her own creation. What I'm saying is that her rights don't supersede any of ours to do the same, although for the record, I don't perceive her website as an attempt to curtail or control fandom. In the world of Harry Potter, JKR is god, but that doesn't mean that her word, unless it comes between the covers of a book, is the undisputed truth. An author has every right to say 'that's not what I wrote', but a reader has an equal right to respond 'that's what I read.' Abigail From john at sunstoneonline.com Mon May 17 22:26:31 2004 From: john at sunstoneonline.com (John Hatch) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:26:31 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death References: <1084831707.86852.1224.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000801c43c5e$01662400$0e00a8c0@sunstone77nev7> No: HPFGUIDX 98639 Pippin writes: There was only one invisibility cloak available (Moody's spare was lost with Podmore) and it was being used to guard the Prophecy. I don't agree that it was safe for Sirius to notifiy the old crowd--it was a calculated risk that was undertaken only because there was an immediate danger and no time to set up safer ways of communication. All the surviving members of the old crowd had to be alerted of Voldemort's return ASAP. Voldemort now had the means to go after them and no need to hide the source of his information. Once his task was done, Sirius was instructed to lie low at Lupin's. Are you saying that Sirius only wanted to fight because he was feeling useless? I thought he felt useless because he thought fighting was the only worthwhile thing to do. And he couldn't be used as a spy because: a) the Padfoot disguise was blown b) As a human, he had the wrong personality for it. He couldn't resist drawing attention to himself -- kind of like Harry throwing mud at Malfoy in Hogsmeade. But I could be wrong. John responds: I don't think you are wrong, myself. This is what is so wonderful about JKR's books and her skills as a writer. Her characters aren't two-dimensional. Sirius, like James, Lupin, and even Harry, has flaws. Sirius likes being the center of attention, he likes being in the middle of the action. He had something to do - take care of the Order's headquarters. But that wasn't *noble* enough or good enough for him. We saw a very ugly side to James in OotP. At first, I was convinced Snape's memory must have somehow been wrong. And if it was right, then I figured James was just a jerk. But then Harry talks to Sirius and Lupin, and the very things that disgust Harry about his father, they remember with fondness - the snitch and messing up his hair. He was a kid when he did it. Suddenly, there's more perspective to his character than just being a mean schoolmate. That's why Harry and Ron stealing the car to get to school in CoS is one of my favorite parts of the books. Who hasn't been there before? You think something's a brilliant idea - and loads of fun! It makes perfect sense to you. It isn't until something bad happens that suddenly you realize it wasn't all that brilliant. You didn't even stop to consider other possibilities, let alone of the consequences of your actions. At the time, it made perfect sense, but later you realize how foolish it was. It makes the characters so human, and JKR such a talented writer. John From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Mon May 17 22:33:38 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 22:33:38 -0000 Subject: Seduction: Bella and the Boys. ( was: Why we ship.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98640 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > > Kneasy wrote: > > I've already read the runes; Draco will meet a most interesting > end at the hands of Dominatrix Bella. A schoolboy fantasy par > excellence! The trouble is Draco won't be up to it. > > > Mandy here: > Not just a schoolboy fantasy I might add. ;-) I'm not sure why > Bellatrix would bother with Draco. Other than digging the knife into > Lucius Malfoy heart. I do see a power struggle between Lucius and > Bellatrix as to just who actually is LV second in command, and now > Lucius is in Azkaban and his family are vulnerable, I wouldn't put it > past Bellatrix to devour Lucius Malfoy's prodigal son. AmanitaMuscaria now: You bring up some very interesting ideas about the infighting in the DeathEaters' ranks - delicious possibilities with Bellatrix on the loose and Draco wanting to prove himself with Lucius in Azkaban, however briefly. I reckon on Draco trying something very foolish. > > If there is any seducing and discarding to be done by our terrifying > Dark witch, it has to be one of the good boys. > > Ron: A prime candidate to betray Harry, as he is desperate and > insecure enough to be easily seduced by money and/or his family's > safety. Although it's far too easy and not enough of a challenge for > Bellatrix imo. Also another member of the Weasley clan, Percy, is > already crossing the line between good and evil. > > Neville: The seduction of Neville Longbottom would be a true fait > acomple! No one would ever suspect. To take the son of the man and > woman Bellatrix tortured into insanity, and seduce him into betraying > Harry Potter would be a triumph equal only to Richard III's seduction > of Lady Anne in Shakespeare! A challenge worthy of our Ms. > Lestrange. > > Cheers, Mandy, who can't resist rambling about my favorite character, > Bellatrix. AmanitaMuscaria again - Yup. Neville. It's just got that horrible feeling of inevitability, like a speeding train heading towards you ... but then, I believe our Neville is built of stronger stuff, and would come to his senses, find his power, and turn the tables on lovely Bella. I hope. Great post! Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From t.forch at mail.dk Mon May 17 22:41:48 2004 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 00:41:48 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and James Job and Hagrid's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040518003601.01f5ec00@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 98641 At 19:11 17-05-04 +0000, moonmyyst13 wrote: >I am new to this chat board and am really enjoying it - thank you. > >I have 2 quesitons that some friends of mine and I are wondering >about: > >1) We all assume that Lily and James were Aurors. Were they? If >not, what were their jobs? They made a good bit of money to leave >for Harry unless that is money handed down from James' side of the >family. The money is inherited. As is the Invisibility Cloak (question 18 of the above chat). >2) What house was Hagrid in? Hagrid was in Gryffindor, "naturally" While definitely not quite up-to-date (there's a lot missing from the latest chat and Rowling's own site) a lot of information can be found in various places. The Lexicon: and the meta-FAQ at Hogwarts Library: Both of these contains links to other places. HTH! Troels From t.forch at mail.dk Mon May 17 22:45:16 2004 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 00:45:16 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and James Job and Hagrid's House In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040518003601.01f5ec00@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040518004430.01d8af00@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 98642 At 00:41 18-05-04 +0200, Troels Forchhammer wrote: >While definitely not quite up-to-date (there's a lot missing >from the latest chat and Rowling's own site) This was meant to only apply to the Meta-FAQ - Sorry about the confusion. Troels From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Mon May 17 22:40:47 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 22:40:47 -0000 Subject: What if it's not his powers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98643 I've been reading a bunch of the "will Harry lose his powers" stuff and it's all well and good but it seems to be based on the notion that Harry somehow sacrifices his powers because they are what means the most to him. I don't get that at all. What did Harry see in the Mirror of Erised, himself as the most powerful wizard around? Nope, a family. What Harry wants most is the kind of loving family he has never had. If he has to sacrifice what he wants the most, I think it will be a family. And I can see how it happens. Harry and Ginny hook up somewhat, in that they figure out how much they care for each other and how perfectly it all works out the two of them hook up and Ron and Hermione hook up and they all get to be a nice happy extended family and all that fun stuff. But at some point Harry has to make a decision that ends up costing Ron's life. Neither Hermione nor Ginny can really ever forgive him, yada yada et cetera and so forth. Just a thought. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon May 17 23:04:20 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:04:20 -0000 Subject: What if it's not his powers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98644 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote: > But at some point Harry has to make a decision that ends up costing > Ron's life. Neither Hermione nor Ginny can really ever forgive him, > yada yada et cetera and so forth. > > Just a thought. Well, that's an interesting thought, and I like it because it would basically put Harry in Dumbledore's shoes, having to make hard decisions that require sacrificing other people for the greater good. It's maybe been said too often that adulthood means "responsibility". I think it also means "authority", and that is both a power and a burden. Harry can yell at Dumbledore all he wants, but he has no real idea of what adults HAVE to do. He just sees them as people who have authority but don't use it in a way that he can understand or approve of, because their actions are not resulting in happiness. It would be interesting to see his reaction to a situation where he has to sacrifice, not himself, but someone else to do what's right. Wanda From keltobin at yahoo.com Mon May 17 23:15:02 2004 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:15:02 -0000 Subject: Sharing names In-Reply-To: <002d01c43c4a$478f5a00$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98645 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > Wanda, > > What young Tom Riddle eventually does with his name in the story > doesn't explain why he has that name in the first place - why that > name and no other. Naming a child after the father also shows devotion on the part of the mother. I think we'll be hearing more of Voldemort's birth story and it will involve his mother being extremely in love and devoted to his scoundrel father. This seems to be where much of his anger comes from. Kelly From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon May 17 23:21:17 2004 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:21:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No more "Voldie" nickname? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <991956643.20040517162117@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98646 Sunday, May 16, 2004, 9:13:41 PM, vmonte wrote: v> I don't think JKR is ordering her fans around. I think what she is v> trying to say is that Voldemort is a disgusting human being and v> should not be given a cute cuddly nickname. It would be like giving v> Hitler a cute nickname. Agreed. I think Jo is a bit worried about fans starting to regard Voldemort as "cool", the way many Star Wars fans feel about Darth Vader, or the love letters Nigel Havers (to his shock and dismay) received addressed to the vile scum he played in _The Charmer_ (a sort of Voldemort who's good in bed). She doesn't want any flashy posters of Voldemort, or girls swooning over his "virile power" or people dressing up as him for Halloween. She wants us to *hate* him. Really, really HATE him. -- Dave From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Mon May 17 23:52:13 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:52:13 -0400 Subject: Predictions for Chapter One of book six, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040517194832.02ab51b0@mail.tbbs.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98647 Predictions for Chapter One of book six, based upon a hint from JKR's web site: Harry Potter and the Runespoor Elixir At the first weekend of the summer holidays, Hermione's family drives off to spend a few days at the shore. In the very, very early morning her father spots something that resembles an explosion on a tiny island way out to sea. They sail out in a storm to the remote island, of the dread fortress of Azkaban. Everywhere on the muddy grounds, lay the bodies of the Wizards from the Magical Law Enforcement Squad. Since the dementors had deserted Azkaban and joined Voldemort, trained Hit Wizards had taken over guard duty. Where the fortress once stood was now a crater in the middle of the island. There were no sign of the Death Eater prisoners in the ruins of the fortress that was blown to smithereens. Phil, hoping some of this is correct. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Mon May 17 23:46:48 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 18:46:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No more "Voldie" nickname? References: <991956643.20040517162117@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <005201c43c69$38bc1760$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98648 Sunday, May 16, 2004, 9:13:41 PM, vmonte wrote: v> I don't think JKR is ordering her fans around. I think what she is v> trying to say is that Voldemort is a disgusting human being and v> should not be given a cute cuddly nickname. It would be like giving v> Hitler a cute nickname. Dave Agreed. I think Jo is a bit worried about fans starting to regard Voldemort as "cool", the way many Star Wars fans feel about Darth Vader, or the love letters Nigel Havers (to his shock and dismay) received addressed to the vile scum he played in _The Charmer_ (a sort of Voldemort who's good in bed). She doesn't want any flashy posters of Voldemort, or girls swooning over his "virile power" or people dressing up as him for Halloween. She wants us to *hate* him. Really, really HATE him. {Silverthorne} Okay, I can see and agree with that. I'll admit to being one of the ones 'put off' by the *appearant* tone she used--although my take on that is that although I understand it's hard to come across properly in printed mediums sometimes, perhaps someone should have edited her words a bit and explained that some of her 'dry humor' might actaully come across as a sort of arrogance instead...after all, fans all over the world--many of whom, like myself, actaully do *not* hang on every interview and article about her and her works, may not *know* her well enough to understand that's exactly what it is. I'm one of those people that learn about artists/writers/actors/muscians seperate from their works, if I learn about them at all. It's not that I'm not interested in the people, but that I prefer the works to stand on their own without influence from what I might or might not know about the creator. That probably seems odd--but if you take into account how much the general public is allowed to crawl into 'celebrity' lives now (and then not only flambe the creator, but their works, no matter how well done, *because* of the creator), you might understand why I try to keep it seperate. I want to be able to still enjoy the works without being offended because of *who* was involved in creating them. The site, of course, is more Rowling and her views, ideas, requests and so forth than it is about the actual books. Not a bad thing at all...except that some of her intentions are easily misread because of the way she voiced them. 'This has got to stop' *does* look like an ultimatum--and for those of us who haven't seen her humor in full force before had nothing to tell us this was an amused, half joking plea. Anyway...that's really my only point--as with those of us on this board--Rowling might have wanted to reconsider how she responded in some of the Q&A, showed a little more awareness that all she has is uniflected, printed words (which, as a writer, she should be aware of anyway...^^;). Of course, if the tone was exactly as it was meant to be, then yes, I find her a bit off-putting. Yes, it's her world, her characters, her ideas...but still...once she lets other folks near it, it's gonna get changed around, misinterpreted, plot is going to be guessed at, bitched at when it doesn't match what other folks wanted to see, and rewritten a thousand times over by people who think they can do better, opinons that she never thought of will be voiced and believed in, and characters, whether she wills it or not, are going to end up with nicknames that make her cringe. And really, the best thing you can do in that situation is *laugh* about it....because someone, somewhere, will *always* do something to 'your' babies that you never intended or wanted.... and as for the whole 'Voldie' thing--as I said before, I call him that because he is evil, self absorbed, and does not deserve any more repsect than it takes to make sure his wand and intentions are not pointed at me, so to speak....I don't consider it 'cute'--I consider it dripping, scathing contempt--and the only 'safe' and 'clean' way to express it. Unless you would rather I refer to him as 'That stupid f***head, a**hole, piece of s***, who isn't worthy of the title 'Human', let alone "wizard"! C'mon, s***head, come and get me--let me see if I can't rearrange your face for you!!!!! You total f***ing LOOSER!!!!!!!' (takes deep breath, smooths down hair, primps self and goes back to sitting like a lady.) Ahem. And yes, I meant to do that! *grins* Evening, all! *hugs* Anne From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon May 17 23:50:28 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:50:28 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98649 > > Well, the only thing I can say that even if emotional wellfare of the > Order members is not their commander first priority, it should be > somewhere on his list of priorities. > Alla wrote: > > Sorry, I don't buy that Dumbledore could not find ANYTHING useful for > Sirius to do. > > He thought it was perfectly fine for Sirius to go notify Old Crowd > after GoF, now suddenly in OoP it is not safe for him to go out as a > Padfoot? > Neri: Yep, I completely agree with Alla here. Keeping Sirius in 12GP was one of several glaring mistakes that DD did in OotP. To DD's credit, this is a classic strategic mistake that many commanders fail to avoid: they stick their troops into defensive positions that are theoretically safer, but also prevent them from doing anything. This invariably leads to deteriorating troop moral that often offsets the defensive advantages. Sirius should have been in the streets during nights as Padfoot, tracking DEs. His superior senses of smell and hearing as a dog could have been a great asset for the Order. I'd use him for spying on the Malfoy mansion, or as a secondary security screen around the MoM at nights. He'd probably have noticed Nagini before she'd managed to get into the MoM and attack Arthur. So the DEs knew about his cover as Padfoot. So what? They also most likely knew (or could have made a reasonable guess) that Arthur and Lupin and Moody are working for DD, and this had not prevented DD from using either three. As a black dog at night, probably with a disillusionment charm on him, Sirius would have been much harder to spot than them. Remember that Padfoot, Wormatil and Prongs had managed to tour Hogwarts and the Forbidden Forest for three whole years without DD or Hagrid noticing them, and Padfoot!Sirius is the only Wizard in history who escaped out of Azkaban without outside assistance. Keeping Sirius in 12GP for a year was a big waste of resources and failed to protect him in the end. Neri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 17 23:50:42 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:50:42 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > ... It's easy to get confused, as there are two Tom Riddles to keep > track of. ...edited... Can anyone think of any reasons why Tom > Riddle would have to have the same name as his father? Because I > really do think that it's going to turn out to advance the plot > somehow. > > Wanda bboy_mn: I think the reason is obvious, when young Tom Jr was born his mother was estranged from his father; more accurately, Tom Sr. had abondon them. I think to make sure that the father couldn't later deny the connection, Tom Jr's mother named him after both his father and his grandfather, and to some extent, that insured that his heritage couldn't be lost. Tom Jr. was the first born son to Tom Sr. and would therefore be the rightful heir to the Riddle Estate. I see this as a bit of heritage insurance taken out by Tom Jr's mother. I have often wondered if Tom Jr went back to claim his inheritance after he killed the Riddle family. Just a thought. bboy_mn From hpfgu_list_elves at yahoo.com Mon May 17 23:51:20 2004 From: hpfgu_list_elves at yahoo.com (hpfgu_list_elves) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:51:20 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Call for Elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98651 The HPfGU Admin Team is looking for A Few Good Elves. All elves are expected to perform one or both of the following duties: ? Welcoming new list members -- Send personal welcome e-mails to all of the people who join the list on your assigned day and enter related information in a database. ? Participation in the list-reading rota -- Read every message posted to HPforGrownups (the main list) on your assigned day, check for compliance to posting guidelines, and note the non-compliant posts in a database. ADDITIONAL TASKS In addition, if you are interested in assisting with the following additional (optional) tasks, please note this in your Elf Enslavement Application: ? Pending Messages -- Approve, reject, or edit moderated posts from new members and explain why a message was rejected or edited. ? Help Desk -- Those who have problems with grammar, spelling, and punctuation (non-native English speakers, people with dyslexia or visual impairments, etc.) submit their messages for editing before they post them to the list. ? Technical Support -- Please have one or more of the following skills: knowledge of the mysterious inner workings of Yahoomort, HTML markup, using or writing scripts (Perl, Java, SQL, etc.), security measures, or other Internet technologies. ? Public Relations -- Respond to messages sent to the HPforGrownups- owner account. ? Database Maintenance -- Clear out old entries, ensure the accuracy of database entries, and cull relevant information. (We use the databases provided by YahooGroups.) ? Monitoring HPfGU Sister Lists -- Check OT-Chatter, Movie, and other HPFGU lists for spammers, flame wars, and other irregular or illegal behavior. MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS An elf candidate must ? Have been a member of HPfGU in good standing for at least 6 months -- "Good standing" means that you are not on permanent moderated status. (Those few who are permanently moderated have been notified.) ? Have a good sense of HPfGU's posting conventions -- You understand the basic HPfGU standards of snipping, attribution, and courtesy. (You don't need to have the rules memorized, though.) ? Have good spelling, punctuation, and grammar skills -- You don't have to be a Master Linguist, but you should know the difference between a semicolon and a hole in the ground. :-) Non-native English speakers are welcome to apply. ? Have good communication skills -- It is important that you know how to express your ideas (especially disagreement) courteously and with clarity. ? Have good interpersonal skills -- Your fellow List Elves will come from a variety of backgrounds and have a variety of communication styles. You'll need to know how to get along with people you may not particularly like or understand, how to go along with decisions with which you don't necessarily agree, and how to be discreet (not reveal confidential list business to non-admins). ? Be reasonably level-headed -- You should be slow to react when insulted, slow to jump to conclusions, and quick to forgive misunderstandings. If you are in the habit of responding in anger (instead of waiting before posting), this might not be the job for you. Patience is definitely a virtue in HPfGU list admin; a sense of humor (especially in the face of the absurd) is mandatory. ? Score respectably well on the Percy scale -- If you have some perfectionist tendencies, you'll fit right in! ? Have no life -- Just kidding! However, we do ask that your real life not be so full as to prevent you from performing your elfly duties. (You can negotiate how many elfly duties you have.) We prefer that you commit to a minimum of six months in List Admin; however, you can don clothing sooner if the need arises. The ability to keep the rest of the Team supplied with eclairs is a bonus but is not required. :-) BENEFITS Becoming an HPfGU List Elf allows you to ? Blow your Harry Potter Obsession score through the roof. ? Imbibe all the butterbeer you want (except when on duty). ? Become the target of bitter and sometimes delicious insults, e.g., "Moderator Tart." ? Acquire a stylish new wardrobe of colorful tea cozies, lurid pillowcases, and violently mismatched socks. ? Get immediate first aid for ears-in-the-oven-door slammings, hand ironings, foot-in-blender jammings, and other self-inflicted punishments. If a large number of candidates apply, it may not be possible to accept every qualified candidate right away. Every application will be acknowledged, and we'll keep the applications on file for future consideration unless you notify us otherwise. You can find the Elf Enslavement Application (EEA.txt) at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/ The application includes instructions on where to send the application. The deadline for sending in applications is Friday, May 21, 2004, at 00:00 (midnight) GMT. Best regards, The HPfGU Admin Team From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue May 18 00:15:01 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 00:15:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98652 Pippin wrote: And he couldn't be used as a spy because: a) the Padfoot disguise was blown b) As a human, he had the wrong personality for it. He couldn't resist drawing attention to himself -- kind of like Harry throwing mud at Malfoy in Hogsmeade. But I could be wrong. vmonte responds: Sirius was stuck at Grimmauld Place for months. Too bad he never thought of having Snape brew him some polyjuice potion. He would have been able to take a stroll, stretch his legs, go to a movie. Then again, Sirius would have no doubt gone looking for Voldy, Voldie, LV, Lord thingy, that guy, I mean trouble. (I'm kidding folks.) vmonte vmonte From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue May 18 00:17:11 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 00:17:11 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > I think the reason is obvious, when young Tom Jr was born his mother > was estranged from his father; more accurately, Tom Sr. had abondon > them. I think to make sure that the father couldn't later deny the > connection, Tom Jr's mother named him after both his father and his > grandfather, and to some extent, that insured that his heritage > couldn't be lost. Tom Jr. was the first born son to Tom Sr. and would > therefore be the rightful heir to the Riddle Estate. Unless his parents weren't married, which I don't believe they were, which would be yet another bitter pill for Tom Jr. Just giving the boy the same name as her lover would be of no use at all in trying stake a claim. And the fact that Tom was brought up in an orphanage would argue that Tom Sr. had no legal obligation to him. This would not be the case if he'd married his mother; parents can't just refuse to acknowledge legitimate children, they're legally responsible for them. If she'd had a marriage certificate, she could not have been cast off so easily, and her son would have had legal protection. Even if he'd divorced her (which is not stated - the word is "abandoned") he'd have had to provide for their son. Anyway, this keeps bringing the question back to the logical workings of the fictional world of the book, when I think that it really originates in the real world of JKR. We are concocting backstories to explain something that she does not explain herself. As I said before, she invented the names for these characters, and has broken her pattern by giving two characters the same name. The only other time this happened, it was not because Barty Crouch's mother was so much in love with her husband that she gave their son the same name. Nor was it because there was some doubt that Barty Sr. was really the father of Barty Jr., and this was intended to put all doubt to rest (hey, I can create backgrounds too!). It was because Rowling had a use for two characters with the same name. I think that the same thing is happening here, and I guess only time will tell if I'm right. Wanda From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 00:29:49 2004 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 00:29:49 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks and other magical animals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98654 Now that we know that Crookshanks is a Kneazle (pg. 24 FB), I couldn't help but wonder if JKR has any other plans for him. Clearly, his presence in PoA is important (had I only known, it would have been a wonderful clue!) but... things I had wondered: 1. Does Hermione know yet that her 'cat' is a Kneazle? 2. Does Crookshanks have a relationship with any other magical creatures in the castle (most wondering about Fawkes)? 3. Is Dumbledore aware of what Crookshanks is? Crookshanks could be important in future books too. After all, Kneazles "can be relied upon to guide its owner safely home if they are lost." COuld this be important later on? Also, I wonder if Hermione is aware that her pet actually requires a special license for ownership... Curious, Christy From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue May 18 00:45:59 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 00:45:59 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks and other magical animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98656 Christy wrote: Crookshanks could be important in future books too. After all, Kneazles "can be relied upon to guide its owner safely home if they are lost." COuld this be important later on? vmonte responds: It may be important, especially if someone knocks Harry's glasses to the floor. Kidding aside, I wonder why Voldemort doesn't just say accio glasses! vmonte From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 02:06:37 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 02:06:37 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > There was only one invisibility cloak available (Moody's spare > was lost with Podmore) and it was being used to guard the > Prophecy. We don't know that there was only one invisibility cloak available. After all, when Ron sees Harry's in the first book, he says that those are rare, not that those are extinct. :o) In fact, we can speculate that if family is very rich, like Sirius' was, they could afford to buy invisibility cloak. > Are you saying that Sirius only wanted to fight because > he was feeling useless? I thought he felt useless because he > thought fighting was the only worthwhile thing to do. No, I am saying that make Sirius feel useful was the right thing to do for Dumbledore. But, he forgot what does it mean to be young indeed. As commander, he forgot that his soldiers are human beings too. > And he couldn't be used as a spy because: > > a) the Padfoot disguise was blown > b) As a human, he had the wrong personality for it. He couldn't > resist drawing attention to himself -- kind of like Harry throwing > mud at Malfoy in Hogsmeade. > > But I could be wrong. > > Pippin Sorry, but yes I think you may be incorrect.:o) Please, take a look at Neri's post for excellent scenarion how Sirius indeed could have been used as a spy. Alla From LadySawall at aol.com Tue May 18 02:08:58 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 22:08:58 EDT Subject: What's In It for Snape Message-ID: <63.2c2c3892.2ddaca3a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98658 Still only about a third of the way through the enormous backlog in my Inbox, so please excuse if I've missed someone else making a post that makes any of mine redundant... Apologies also if this post should have a SHIP header, though it's really more about a theoretical secret obsession that a relationship per se. In a message dated 05/01/2004 6:32:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: This is my (Susan, er... teilani) response: I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thought of this, but perhaps Snape had a crush on Lily. We know James and Severus hated each other while they were in school. We also know SS became an acolyte of LV, but what we don't know is why he left LV in the first place. Could it be that maybe he couldn't stomach the idea of killing wizards who weren't purebloods, as in, Lily's not a pureblood! And IIRC, didn't that whole episode that HP saw in the penseive happen right in front of Lily?! How humiliating! That would certainly help explain why he didn't want her sticking up for him! I'm just saying that Harry probably reminds SS about too many things: the treatment he received from the Mauraders (particularly when it happened in front of Lily), the fact that Harry looks a great deal like his father, perhaps even some shame about hooking up with LV in the first place... See where I'm going? Just a thought. It's been brought up before, and I think it makes entirely too much sense. True, Snape did call Lily a Mudblood, but look at the context--he was being humiliated in front of an audience, possibly including other Slytherins, and she was not only a Gryffindor, but a muggle-born *girl* to boot. Imagine how his own Housemates would have treated him if he had said or done anything different! Talk about out of the frying pan, into the fire! I could also make a case for a love/hate sentiment there--he could have been attracted to Lily (or even just simply inclined to be grateful for her consideration,) but also ashamed, confused, and/or angered by that feeling. Pureblood Slytherins aren't *supposed* to like "Mudblood" Gryffindors. I like the theory though (despite the fact that it's possible to poke some significant holes in it, which has also been done before, only I don't recall the specifics) because it explains rather neatly a number of things about Snape (and possibly other things in the books) that are otherwise puzzling. Why would a highly intelligent man whose worst childhood enemy is more than a decade dead, feel it necessary to mistreat that enemy's son? Maybe because he sees Lily's eyes looking back at him from James' face every day in class, reminding him inescapably of the green-eyed children he will never have. Why did he turn from Voldemort? Maybe because Voldemort threatened Lily--if not her life, then all the things that she held dear. Why go to Dumbledore, instead of just Apparating to the furthest possible locale and disappearing? Maybe because Dumbledore was the most likely person to find a way to protect Lily. Why did Voldemort tell Lily to stand aside first, instead of killing her out of hand? Maybe because a favored servant requested it of him. For me, it also puts a slightly different spin on the whole Pensieve scene and the question "Been enjoying yourself, Potter?" As a related aside, I would think it would be difficult to keep in mind, when someone else sees one of your personal disturbing memories in a Pensieve, that the other person doesn't attach the same meanings to what they see as you do. It's all taken out of context from the rest of your life, and the viewer is not privy to the emotions that go with it, only the factual sequence of events. I can imagine Snape meaning a lot more by that question than just "Think it's funny that your father and his goons make a fool of me in public?" He could also have been asking, "Think it's funny that your mother defended me? That I liked her? Or that I was obliged to call her nasty names to avoid being lynched by my own House?" I also think the title of the chapter, "Snape's Worst Memory," is rather intriguing, and possibly a hint. After all, Snape has been almost fed to a werewolf, gone through whatever nightmare initiations Voldemort requires of his followers, has had to go to Dumbledore hat in hand begging for a second chance, and has spent (at that point) twelve or thirteen years in a job he clearly hates. Certainly being upended and jeered at by a bunch of bullies would be a horrible experience, but if it literally is his *worst* memory (and by his behavior after Harry saw it, it very well could be,) then I can't help but think there's something to it beyond the obvious. It also fits in rather neatly with Snape's virulent hatred of Sirius Black, though he admittedly hardly *needs* another reason for that... Whether or not it turns out to be true in forthcoming books, it makes for interesting speculation (and I might add, some rather poignant fanfics.) ;) JCS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snapesmate at hotmail.com Tue May 18 02:12:50 2004 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 02:12:50 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus (was : Re: Use of Hagrid's name - More names) In-Reply-To: <40A0E655.3050306@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98659 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: > delwynmarch wrote: > > > > khilari also wrote : > > > >>Also Lupin sounds like a name and Black doesn't. > > > > Del is puzzled : > > How so ? > > I'm puzzled. Why Snuffles?? > > Jem Snuffles is not an uncommon name for a dog, especially a big, friendly, lovable dog. I don't know if Sirius has this description when he is transformed though. We do know when he was hiding in the mountain cave in GoF, he did describe himself (Snuffles) as a lovable stray. As far as the Lupin/Sirius thing, I too find myself naturally calling them Lupin and Sirius. I have on numerous occassions, forced myself to refer to Lupin as Remus, because in the same post I had typed Sirius and wanted to treat them "equal". Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice guy! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 18 02:15:51 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 02:15:51 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks and other magical animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98660 Christy wrote: > Now that we know that Crookshanks is a Kneazle (pg. 24 FB), I > couldn't help but wonder if JKR has any other plans for him. > Also, I wonder if Hermione is aware that her pet actually requires > a special license for ownership... JKR has said that Crookshanks is only *part* kneazle. That might mean that Hermione is off the hook in terms of that special license. Siriusly Snapey Susan From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 18 02:21:50 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 02:21:50 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Neri: > Yep, I completely agree with Alla here. Keeping Sirius in 12GP was one of several glaring mistakes that DD did in OotP. To DD's credit, this is a classic strategic mistake that many commanders fail to avoid: they stick their troops into defensive positions that are theoretically safer, but also prevent them from doing anything. This invariably leads to deteriorating troop moral that often offsets the defensive advantages.< Pippin: Hmmm...but Dumbledore's troops aren't regulars, are they? My impression was that nothing was keeping Sirius at 12GP but Dumbledore's advice and his own conviction that it was where he belonged. There was nothing to keep him from returning to his tropical refuge except that Harry might need him on short notice. Neri: > Sirius should have been in the streets during nights as Padfoot, tracking DEs. < Pippin: Huh? How do you track someone who's apparating? We have it from the ministry forces at the QWC that it's impossible. Neri: >His superior senses of smell and hearing as a dog could have been a great asset for the Order. I'd use him for spying on Malfoy mansion, or as a secondary security screen around the MoM at nights. He'd probably have noticed Nagini before she'd managed to get into the MoM and attack Arthur.< Pippin: Erm, somehow I don't think Nagini (if it was she) glided down a London street, into a phone box, and dialed 62442 with her tongue . As a matter of fact we don't know how she got in or out of the MoM. Maybe Malfoy transfigured possessed!Nagini into a grass snake, put her in his pocket, flooed to the Ministry, and when the coast was clear, transfigured her back again. Any other ideas? At any rate, if the DE's can hide themselves from human spies, surely they can hide from doggie ones, especially since they know that one of Dumbledore's spies can be a dog. And hanging around the MoM would scarcely be a good idea for the most wanted wizard on the planet. Neri: > So the DEs knew about his cover as Padfoot. So what? They also most likely knew (or could have made a reasonable guess) that Arthur and Lupin and Moody are working for DD, and this had not prevented DD from using either three. < Pippin: None of them are wanted men. Arthur is protected by his popularity (see CoS) and Moody by his reputation --Voldemort could hardly expect to take him without a fight. Most wizards are scared to death of werewolves even in human form; you'll notice no one took on Lupin at the Ministry. But all that the DE's needed to do to finish or capture Sirius was to call the Dementors on him. All perfectly legal, just helping the ministry like good wizarding citizens should. Dementors would have forced Sirius back into human form and then the DE's could have taken him hostage for real, or let the Dementors suck out his soul. Sirius is better off dead than that. As for deteriorating morale, do you really think that's the reason Sirius died? Suppose that GoF!Sirius, as calm and sane as Sirius ever gets, had learned that Harry had been lured into a trap and a rescue party was needed. Do you think he wouldn't have done exactly what he did in OOP? Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 02:28:46 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 02:28:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98662 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > As for deteriorating morale, do you really think that's the reason > Sirius died? Suppose that GoF!Sirius, as calm and sane as > Sirius ever gets, had learned that Harry had been lured into a > trap and a rescue party was needed. Do you think he wouldn't > have done exactly what he did in OOP? > > Pippin Well, I am not Neri, but I am going to give my version of the answer anyway. :) If I pretend for a second that I believe that Sirius is really dead, then the answer is Yes, that is what I think. Of course, even completely sane Sirius would have wanted to rush to Harry's rescue, but would he have been in the better emotional condition, he would have at least lsitened to sound advise (I think), even if that was advice from Snape. :o) Alla From p0tterfan at yahoo.com Tue May 18 02:45:25 2004 From: p0tterfan at yahoo.com (p0tterfan) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 02:45:25 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98663 > Neri again: > Well, some of the clues are in the best JKR tradition, very difficult > to find and obscured by many red herrings, but other clues are quite > simple and very easy to read (even JKR can't make *everything* > complicated and convoluted, you know. Some things should be just kept > simple). So if I read JKR's answers right, she is telling us that in > shipping the clues are right there on the surface for everybody to > read ("I can't believe some of you haven't got it yet") but with the > main plot it's going to be devious in the best of JKR's style. In a > way it is JKR's own fault that nobody just takes her on face value > anymore, but regarding shipping she repeatedly told us that we can > easily figure it out ourselves, so it means that the most obvious > ships are the correct ones. This almost certainly means R/H and > probably also H/G. Sorry, you fans of all other ships. I'm not an > ardent shipper myself but I can read what's written. Just another thing I noticed while reading her biography on the site, she mentions about her parents having met at Kings cross. (I believe this was discussed on HPFGU before.) However, she further talks about how her dad shared half the coat with her mom. Is this an indication of things to come? Perhaps Harry will be sharing the coat on the train journey in Book 7? Now with whom he'll be sharing the coat with I'll let the shippers decide :) I would put my $0.02 on Ginny though. -p0tterfan (Hopes to duck the incoming barge from H/H shippers!) From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Tue May 18 02:19:51 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 02:19:51 -0000 Subject: No more "Voldie" nickname? In-Reply-To: <005201c43c69$38bc1760$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" wrote: > Sunday, May 16, 2004, 9:13:41 PM, vmonte wrote: > > v> I don't think JKR is ordering her fans around. I think what she is > v> trying to say is that Voldemort is a disgusting human being and > v> should not be given a cute cuddly nickname. It would be like giving > v> Hitler a cute nickname. > > Dave > She doesn't want any flashy posters of Voldemort, or girls swooning > over his "virile power" or people dressing up as him for Halloween. > She wants us to *hate* him. Really, really HATE him. > > {Silverthorne} > and as for the whole 'Voldie' thing--as I said before, I call him that > because he is evil, self absorbed, and does not deserve any more repsect > than it takes to make sure his wand and intentions are not pointed at me, so > to speak....I don't consider it 'cute'--I consider it dripping, scathing > contempt--and the only 'safe' and 'clean' way to express it. > > Unless you would rather I refer to him as 'That stupid f***head, a**hole, > piece of s***, who isn't worthy of the title 'Human', let alone "wizard"! > C'mon, s***head, come and get me--let me see if I can't rearrange your face > for you!!!!! You total f***ing LOOSER!!!!!!!' Hello All, I think this is one of those cases where there is a loss of translation from American English to British English. In my encounters with people who speak British English, they are more precise and proper. Americans on the other hand, take great delight in butchering the language for their own purposes. I can give an example of what I'm talking about if you think about the current and previous American president. If you do not like George Bush and you are with like minded people, you could always refer to the president as "Georgie". Likewise if you didn't like Bill Clinton, he could be refered to as "Billy". These are not meant to be terms of endearments, but terms of loathing and disrespect. When I see the term "Voldie", I do no think those who are using it are doing so as a term of endearment. Besides it is far easir and quicker to type Voldie as opposed to Voldemort. I saw her website, but I didn't take her comment too seriously. I think she may find it confusing is she misinterprets Voldie as a term of endearment. When I think of people using the term Voldie, I picture them thinking "The lastest idiot to come along that thinks he's the s**t." I have a lot of respect for JKR. I am a subtitute teacher and I am amazed that there are a lot more school children that see reading as something fun to do instead of a chore. She is responsible for this more than anybody else. Let's cut her some slack. "mike feemster" From LadySawall at aol.com Tue May 18 03:02:16 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:02:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4550 Message-ID: <79.29dcf9f2.2ddad6b8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98665 In a message dated 05/02/2004 8:36:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > I get the impression that you think Snape could treat Harry better > if he just tried harder. But what if Snape, like Neville, is trying > as hard as he can already? > > Pippin I am sorry again, I don't know if you intended this post to be humorous, but I am laughing again. If what Snape does right now is the best he can do, then he should definitely try harder. :o) Gonna stick my neck out here, and say that I don't find Pippin's question in the least humorous. Personal experience, leading back to topic further on in the post: I've been stuck in a job that I loathed (retail) dealing with people that I all too often couldn't stand. Now I don't claim to be a particularly nice person, but I'm not a misanthoprist either; I get along pretty well with people in general, when I'm not obliged to wait on them hand and foot regardless of how they behave toward me. And, if for no other reason than because I needed a steady income, I had to make my best effort to be nice even to the absolute idiots I dealt with on a regular basis. There were times when, even knowing that my job depended on it and that it was The Right Thing To Do, it was very, very difficult. On particularly bad days, I'd get violently pissed off at people I had never seen before, just because they chose the wrong moment to walk into the store. I was reprimanded more than once because I got snappish with a customer (didn't matter whether or not I had a good reason.) Needless to say, the reprimands were wholly justified, and I always felt bad afterward for having let my temper get the better of me, and resolved to do better next time; but it usually didn't help when the next time actually rolled around. Bottom line, some people just aren't cut out for certain lines of work. No amount of effort on the part of the square peg will allow it to fit into that round hole. So I have a lot of sympathy for Snape, even though I don't approve of many of the things he says and does. Sort of the same way I have sympathy for Al Bundy of "Married: With Children" in his miserable little shoe-store position. Having to go in day after day to a job that one despises can sour even a more or less benign personality after a while; and someone who's already burdened with a mean streak and an inferiority complex, IMO, doesn't stand a chance. Put him in a research position--or for that matter, *any* environment where he could work with consistently competent adults--and I expect he'd do better. But I really think that if he had any choice in the matter, Snape would not be where he is. Come to think of it, I'm kinda surprised that after having to slog through fifteen years of explosions, melted cauldrons, student theft, hospital trips, wasted ingredients, and wave after wave of disrespectful inattentive dunderheads (come on, you know Harry's class isn't *that* unique!), he hasn't killed anybody yet... Jo Ann ...who does feel badly for poor Neville, but suspects that he's enough to give any Potions instructor a migraine. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 03:19:35 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 03:19:35 -0000 Subject: Digest Number 4550 In-Reply-To: <79.29dcf9f2.2ddad6b8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98666 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, LadySawall at a... wrote: > > So I have a lot of sympathy for Snape, even though I don't approve of many of > the things he says and does. snip. Put him in a research position--or for that matter, *any* environment where he > could work with consistently competent adults--and I expect he'd do better. But > I really think that if he had any choice in the matter, Snape would not be > where he is. Oh, I have no doubt that as a researcher Snape would do very well. I also almost positive that he hates a teaching profession. I still don't think that he tries as hard as he should. If he indeed was forced to become a teacher that was most likely because Dumbledore was saving his neck from Lord Thingy or MOM Aurors or both. I think it is a reasonable guess that Hogwarts is the SAFEST place for him to be. So, if he knows that he is not going to stay here forever, he is still obligated to do his job reasonably well and , IMO, he does not come close. > Come to think of it, I'm kinda surprised that after having to slog through > fifteen years of explosions, melted cauldrons, student theft, hospital trips, > wasted ingredients, and wave after wave of disrespectful inattentive dunderheads > (come on, you know Harry's class isn't *that* unique!), he hasn't killed > anybody yet... > > Jo Ann > > ...who does feel badly for poor Neville, but suspects that he's enough to > give any Potions instructor a migraine. > > Oh, I am positive that Harry's class is not that unique, but other teachers have the same class of "dunderheads" and they seem to manage to deal with the rpoblems well enough without abusing these children on a regular basis. Alla From LadySawall at aol.com Tue May 18 03:23:53 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:23:53 EDT Subject: Good Slytherins was Dumbledore's Army (DA) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98667 In a message dated 05/03/2004 2:15:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gregory_lynn writes: Doesn't it all point to a climactic situation where Harry either has to ask for help or is asked for help from/by someone he can't stand. I think what makes the most sense is for Draco to be in some sort of trouble where he needs Harry's help but Harry either doesn't know, doesn't understand, or just plain refuses to help unless Draco asks him. Draco does ask, taking a step toward house unity by surrendering some of his arrogance and showing some vulnerability. And Marianne says: >And while I know that JKR sometimes sets up a character or situation to appear to be set > in a certain way, only to pull the rug out from under those assumptions, she have to do > some really fancy footwork to pull off "Good Slytherin Draco." I dunno though...I can't help but thinking that either Draco is more obtuse than I find credible, or he's already helped Harry and his friends out in a backhanded sort of way a couple of times, without Harry even realizing it. He was the first one to tip them off that Sirius had been recognized in dog form at Platform 9 3/4, and he all but came right out and warned Hermione to get out of the way of the Death Eaters the night of the Quidditch World Cup... I wonder if he could be trying his hand at his father's game, laying the groundwork that could allow him to play off of both sides in the future if things go badly for Voldemort? Marianne again: > And, frankly, I can't see that anything Lucius could do, including killing someone, > that Draco couldn't rationalise to himself as a necessary action. Someone else mentioned the possibility of Lucius harming or killing Narcissa, but it occurs to me also that harming Draco badly enough might do it. And I do believe Lucius is enough of a cold-blooded bastard that if it were required to save his own neck, he'd offer up his son to the cause. One thing I do believe, given the theme of choice that JKR has built up in the books, is that Draco will have a pivotal *opportunity* to redeem himself at some point--whether or not he actually does. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue May 18 03:42:43 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 03:42:43 -0000 Subject: JKR's opinon. was What JKR's up to In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98668 Abigail wrote: > Of course, this attitude isn't unique to fandom. In literary analysis, > the author's opinion on his or her own work is rarely taken into > consideration. Authorial intent should be made apparent through the > work, or not at all. Robert Frost vehemently denied that his poem > Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening expressed a desire for death, > but that is how that poem was read by many. JKR created her characters, > and so in a way she knows them better than we ever will. But if we see > something in those characters that she may not have intended to put > there? JKR doesn't like Draco Malfoy, but some of us find him > interesting or pitiable. Are we wrong? > > Mandy is right to say that JKR has the same right as any of us to > express her opinions about her own creation. What I'm saying is that > her rights don't supersede any of ours to do the same, although for the > record, I don't perceive her website as an attempt to curtail or control > fandom. In the world of Harry Potter, JKR is god, but that doesn't mean > that her word, unless it comes between the covers of a book, is the > undisputed truth. An author has every right to say 'that's not what I > wrote', but a reader has an equal right to respond 'that's what I read.' > > Abigail Antosha: Wow. I am so conflicted on this subject. Yes, I agree: a piece of art--a novel, a painting, a performance--has value only insofar as it effects the audience. Art is a form of communication and as such belongs to both the creator and the recipient. Indeed, I would go a step further than you do here and say that the multiplicity of a work's possible interpretations is actually a measuring stick for its relative artistic merit. That's why Coleridge called Shakespeare "myriad minded"--his work is so complex and rich that it can be interpreted in almost as many ways as there are people to view/read it. During the 1930s, there were a pair of famous productions of Julius Caesar: one (American) was a left-wing attack on authoritarianism at the expense of individual expression; the other (French) was consciously fascist, an exploration for the need of the state to crush individuals who would tear the nation apart by putting themselves above it. Both worked. Does the Harry Potter series work on that high a level? Well, we'll have to wait to see. Which leads me to my next point: the work isn't finished. Until we can see the opus complete, it is presumptuous of us to tell the author--the only person on earth who knows where we're going--that she's wrong about her work. We can't say what Draco is like yet--we don't have all the data. We can barely say what Harry's like--he's still growing and changing, as are all of the other characters, something I think JKR is handling better than any other author of children's books I can think of. I think it is miraculous, the imagination, intelligence and breadth of thought that the fans bring to bear on her work. But it's still her work. At least until book seven is published. ;-) From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue May 18 04:41:22 2004 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 04:41:22 -0000 Subject: JRK is right! Give Voldemort respect.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98669 Mandy, from up on her soap box, wrote: > I agree with JKR on this one, and an glad that hardly anyone on > this site uses that particular name in reference to Lord > Voldemort. > Most of us on this site refer to Voldemort as LV, Dumbledore as DD, > and J.K. Rowling as JRK, for the sake of short hand. These > shortening of names to initials, imo, are more acceptable because > they don't take away from the power of the name itself. Of course > JKR might disagree. Erin, stepping onto a soapbox of her own, responds: Well, as someone who does occasionally use the nickname, in this and other groups, I don't really see a problem with it. I think JKR's only problem was insofar as the nickname was linked to thinking Voldemort redeemable. Although I use it, I don't think of him that way. The nickname is merely a convenient way of shortening a long name for me- and I actually prefer "Voldy", as it contains one less letter than "Voldie". Yes, I could go with the initials LV, and sometimes I do. But, let's face it; there are already *a lot* of initials on HPfGU. PS/SS, CoS, PoA, GoF, OoP or OotP, HP, DD, JKR, LV, and ESE are only a few of the ones everyone knows. Then there are the standard internet ones like IMO and IMHO, and that's not even mentioning all the acronyms for all the theories around here. So if I can avoid the initials at least some of the time, I think it makes my posts a bit more readable. Mandy wrote: I've always found it silly and it doesn't in any way describe the villain worthy of our hero's trials and tribulations. > `Volide' is too cute, cuddly and imo disrespectful, and if we're going to honor JKR's works by discussing as much as we do, I think we should respect her wishes. Erin: I don't come to this list to slavishly "honor" JKR like she's the head priestess of some sort of religion. I joined so that I could discuss a topic/story I'm interested in with other reasonable adults. The fact is that once the author releases her work to the general public, and they buy and read her books, it's a bit ridiculous for her to go around retroactively dictating to the readers how to refer to the characters. But I'm convinced she meant her request to be funny. That's the way I took it at first reading, and I was dismayed by all those who don't see it as funny at all, whether they are in agreement or disagreement with the request. It's silly for fans to start telling off other fans. You are not the language police, and JKR isn't either (and I really think *she*, at least, knows that). It's like the word Mudblood, which some silly newbie is always insisting on partially bleeping out or telling the list "Gosh, I sure do hate that name! It's a bad word!" Well, no, it's not. It's a made-up word, just like Lord Voldemort is a made-up person. Neither of them are real. It's just a work of fiction. I'm an adult, and I'm not actually going to be scared of Lord Voldemort no matter what I call him. Calling him by a nickname won't make me fear him less, as I never feared him in the first place. Mandy: > JKR wants Voldemort to maintain an aurora of menace and terror and > to dumb him down with a silly nickname is wrong and disrespectful > to the character and authors intention. Erin: I agree that Rowling would like Voldemort to remain frightening to the reader. And that's perfectly understandable. But the burden is on her shoulders to give him that aura, not on the fans to maintain it. Show us how scary he is in the books, don't just tell us how scary he's supposed to be on your website. LV got off to a good start in GoF, but in my opinion, he really lost ground in OoP. Mandy wrote: > I understand the need by some readers to diminish the villain to make him more palatable and acceptable, but anytime the bad guy in a story is dumbed down it takes away from the hero of the story. When Harry finally defeats Voldemort, the victory will be diminished if we all look upon Voldemort as a weak and cute, 'Voldie'. Erin: Well, in that case, what is JKR doing having practically everyone in the books calling him by name, having Dumbledore call him "Tom", and having Fudge refer to him as "Lord Thingy"? Why is he creeping around for an entire year trying not to get noticed, then blowing his cover, cowering in front of DD, losing the prophecy, and getting nearly all his DE's captured? He is weak at this point! He's weakened himself! IMO, if Voldy doesn't get a lot stronger in the next two books, Harry's victory *will* be diminished, and it won't be because of anything the fans have done. Erin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue May 18 05:12:19 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 05:12:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98670 Pippin wrote: Hmmm...but Dumbledore's troops aren't regulars, are they? My impression was that nothing was keeping Sirius at 12GP but Dumbledore's advice and his own conviction that it was where he belonged. There was nothing to keep him from returning to his tropical refuge except that Harry might need him on short notice. Neri answers: Perhaps Sirius wasn't a regular, but I'm sure he couldn't disobey DD on a regular basis and still help the Order, which was what he wanted to do. DD was clearly the commander here and it was his decision not to give Sirius any mission except house cleaning. Pippin: Huh? How do you track someone who's apparating? We have it from the ministry forces at the QWC that it's impossible. Neri: You can still keep an eye on someone's house or favorite place, and whatever are the limitations on tracking apparating wizards, they apply the same to Lupin, Moody and the rest of the Order members. Pippin: Erm, somehow I don't think Nagini (if it was she) glided down a London street, into a phone box, and dialed 62442 with her tongue . As a matter of fact we don't know how she got in or out of the MoM. Maybe Malfoy transfigured possessed!Nagini into a grass snake, put her in his pocket, flooed to the Ministry, and when the coast was clear, transfigured her back again. Any other ideas? Neri: Granted, we don't know much about all these things, which of them are possible and sensible. However, this is true not only for Nagini, but for Padfoot too. There are probably many ways he could have been used that we don't know about. Pippin: At any rate, if the DE's can hide themselves from human spies, surely they can hide from doggie ones, especially since they know that one of Dumbledore's spies can be a dog. Neri: As you say, all this is true for the other Order members, but it still doesn't mean they just sit at home for a whole year. Pippin: And hanging around the MoM would scarcely be a good idea for the most wanted wizard on the planet. Neri: If it is night and you are well hidden or disguised, it might not be such a bad place either, especially if some of the aurors are your friends. Pippin: None of them are wanted men. Arthur is protected by his popularity (see CoS) Neri: Didn't protect him from possessed!Nagini, though. Pippin: and Moody by his reputation --Voldemort could hardly expect to take him without a fight. Neri: Barty Jr. and Wormtail already took him down in GoF. Pippin: Most wizards are scared to death of werewolves even in human form; you'll notice no one took on Lupin at the Ministry. But all that the DE's needed to do to finish or capture Sirius was to call the Dementors on him. All perfectly legal, just helping the ministry like good wizarding citizens should. Neri: You've just been caught by your own argument. All Sirius has to do when the dementors close on him is apparate back to 12GP (or to the next item in his list of places to track this night). Pippin: As for deteriorating morale, do you really think that's the reason Sirius died? Suppose that GoF!Sirius, as calm and sane as Sirius ever gets, had learned that Harry had been lured into a trap and a rescue party was needed. Do you think he wouldn't have done exactly what he did in OOP? Neri: Nope, I never said Sirius wouldn't have gone to the MoM if he was calm and sane. I was referring only for wasting his great potential for a whole year doing house cleaning and feeding a hippogryph. I'm personally sure Sirius would have gone to the MoM in any case, as indeed he should have done, although he might have been fighting more sensibly if he was in a better mental condition. The MoM battle and Sirius' death happened mostly due to several other mistakes of DD. Avoiding even one of these mistakes would have probably saved Sirius' life. Neri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 05:30:07 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 05:30:07 -0000 Subject: How dim is Harry? - Abuse and Oppression. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98671 Kneasy wrote: Not to ask, not to look in the books may be a useful plot device but it is not believable. It's not a question of what you or I would do, it's a question of what anyone with a pulse would do. They'd ask. Siriusly Snapey Susan responded: What IS left, then, Kneasy, besides "a useful plot device"?? If it's not believable that Harry wouldn't ask, because anyone with a pulse would ask--even someone whose nature seems to be reticent when it comes to asking question--then what are we to do? Think Harry is a dolt? I don't think so. It *is* a plot device, imho. JKR shows us enough times where Harry is told not to ask, where he finally screws up the courage to ask DD and is rebuffed, where people like Molly step in & say, "That's enough," ... that we are simply to accept that Harry's just learned it's best to keep quiet. That gives her the "space" to take her time answering the questions. I think she *had* to write Harry this way if she's going to hide the mystery for 7 books. Carol: If we look at OoP, we can see that Harry does want to ask questions--but not about his family. What concerns him now, after the events in the graveyard, is Voldemort and the coming war. He wants to ask Mrs. Figg, or anyone connected with the Order, what's going on and why he's being kept in the dark. Later, it's these kinds of questions that he wants to ask Sirius. And once those are answered (sort of), his chief concern is his hearing--and then it's time to return to school. It isn't that he doesn't care about his parents, but they're at the back of his mind, buried by more immediate concerns. Also there's the point b_boy touched on--When Mad Eye shows Harry the photo of the former Order members, Harry is upset rather than curious. He doesn't want to think about all those happy people, many of them young, about to be murdered or tortured into insanity. I don't think it's a matter of having been taught not to ask questions, although that did play a part in earlier books. He doesn't *want* to ask questions, at least about what happened at Godric's Hollow, because everything he finds out is horrible. He *does* ask questions about the Pensieve incident (though again, Sirius doesn't give very satisfactory answers, at least from my perspective). But I think he heard more than enough about the events leading up to Godric's Hollow for his own satisfaction during the eavesdropping session at the Three Broomsticks (if he substitutes Peter for Sirius as "the murderin' traitor"). Our satisfaction is another matter--but our parents weren't murdered there, and we haven't had to deal with Dementors who forced us to relive what little we remembered of those terrible moments. And to ask, say, "What was my Mum like?" would just be to know what he had missed--at a time when fathers and father figures are more important to him than mothers and mother figures, anyway. Like it or not, he would be cutting the apron strings now, or trying to, just as the Weasley boys (except possibly Ron) are doing. BTW, Harry has already asked some of the questions most of us want answered about Snape--and he's been told that the answers are between Snape and Dumbledore--in other words, none of his business--and, for the time being, none of ours, either. Anyway, that's my take on the matter. It isn't that Harry was abused and is afraid to ask questions. It's that the answers to the questions we want answered would torture him (or, in the case of Snape, ruin the plot). So, yes, it's a plot device, but IMO, it's also believable. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 05:38:59 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 05:38:59 -0000 Subject: A different and totally serious Harry 'ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98672 > Ginger, popping into the Harry/Pansy ship discussion, wrote: > > Hang on to your hats, folks. I was just hanging out at the Lexicon > and found under Pansy a note that the pansy was called, in A > Midsummersnight's Dream, by its other name "love-in-idleness". > > Maybe there's something to this... Carol tosses in her two allusions: "And there is pansies, that's for thoughts" (Ophelia in "Hamlet") And in another famous children's book that I hope someone besides me has read, "Little Women," pansies are referred to as "heart's ease," Old Mr. Lawrence's favorite flower. Carol, who doesn't for a moment think that these references have any bearing on Pansy Parkinson, even if she does think that baby unicorns are cute From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue May 18 05:45:47 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 05:45:47 -0000 Subject: JRK is right! Give Voldemort respect.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erin" wrote: > Erin: > Well, in that case, what is JKR doing having practically everyone in > the books calling him by name, having Dumbledore call him "Tom", and > having Fudge refer to him as "Lord Thingy"? Why is he creeping > around for an entire year trying not to get noticed, then blowing his > cover, cowering in front of DD, losing the prophecy, and getting > nearly all his DE's captured? He is weak at this point! He's > weakened himself! > > IMO, if Voldy doesn't get a lot stronger in the next two books, > Harry's victory *will* be diminished, and it won't be because of > anything the fans have done. imamommy: What else would DD call him? After all, he had LV as a student once. How else would we have him address him? When DD talks about LV, he calls him Voldemort. Have you ever had the experience of watching a kid that you babysat, or taught in Sunday School, or whatever, turn form a promising, intelligent kid into a menace to society? I think there is something sad for DD in LV's choices. As for other people, JKR repeatedly makes the point of trying to get people over the cowardice of the name. IMO, she does this not to diminish the power LV has, but to increase the courage and support those who will fight him have. She wants to decrease the fear (for her characters), but not the threat itself. Lord Thingy (which I do happen to like) appears to me to be a Fudgeism. Nobody else calls him that besides our bumbling, blustered, flustered MoM. I agree with those who say Voldie is not meant to be cute, but more to take the mickey out of him. Whenever I use it, I actually think to myself "Moldie Voldie". And I laugh at him. Maybe she misunderstood her fans, maybe we are misunderstanding her, I don't know, but I bet she'll think it's hilarious that we are spending all this time talking about it. You are right about him being weak. I think his weakness has a purpose. I think he risked everything for a chance to kill Harry Potter. Yeah, he blew it, just like his rebirthing party, because Harry is drawing him into the open. But what if he had been successful? He could have taken over the ministry that same morning. imamommy From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue May 18 06:06:46 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 06:06:46 -0000 Subject: ESE Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98674 Ok, please only one person answer this dumb question, but I didn't post for a while and when I got back the abbreviation ESE was in common use. I've been trying to figure out what it stands for, but for some reason I can't read much of the HB on my computer, and I haven't been able to trace it all the way back in the archives! Thanks! imamommy From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Tue May 18 05:12:34 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 05:12:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98675 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > > There was only one invisibility cloak available (Moody's spare > > was lost with Podmore) Oh dear- this reminds me- You know what happened with Podmore. What happened if a DE has gotten hold of this cloak? Who might have been somewhere already in a scene, when WE didn't know they were there? (echose of GOF, POA-- hey where did the Crouch family cloak go, too...) Eek! aj From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 06:12:03 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 06:12:03 -0000 Subject: Survivors (was: Why we SHIP (WAS: A different and totally serious Harry 'shi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98676 Kneasy says: > I've never seen this quote before and it warms the cockles of my > evil, dark, FEATHERBOA-bedecked heart. Oh, happy day! Multiple > deaths to come and the likelihood that there will be significant > characters among the fatalities. Oh, splendid! > > Time to make a list: Carol : I agree with the person who said that a few deaths would make a greater impact than a bloodbath, and IIRC, JKR has indicated that some of those who die will be characters she assumes are dear to the readers. with that in mind, here are my predictions: Deaths (good guys): Dumbledore, Hagrid, Lupin, and a Weasley (probably a repentant Percy), miscellaneous unimportant characters like Mad Eye and Tonks Deaths (bad guys): Voldie (of course), Lucius, Bella, Peter, and a slew of other Death Eaters, including Macnair and the Lestranges; Kreacher Survivors (good guys): HRH, most of the Weasleys, Snape (the new DADA professor, now that the jinx is off), McGonagall (the new headmistress) Survivors (bad guys): Draco and his cronies, including Pansy Parkinson; possibly Narcissa Canon support: none. Rationale? It's what I'd like to see. Carol From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 18 06:41:05 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 06:41:05 -0000 Subject: JKR is right! Give Voldemort respect. was: No more "Voldie" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: Geoff: > > BTW, why shouldn't we be disrespectful to Voldemort? I wasn't aware > > that he deserved any..... Mandy: > I though that might come up. Voldemort himself may not deserve > respect, I do think he is a murdering bastard, who should be flayed > alive for his crimes against humanity. But his persona within the > Potterverse as Arch Super Villain Lord Voldemort, the nemesis of > Harry Potter should be treated with respect. Otherwise we weaken our > Hero Harry by weakening his enemy. Geoff: With respect :-), it depends what you mean by "respect". I see a phrase such as "Treat this equipment with respect, it can be dangerous" and "He deserves a great deal of respect because of his work for peace" as semantically having a subtle difference. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue May 18 06:53:28 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 06:53:28 -0000 Subject: ESE = Ever So Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > Ok, please only one person answer this dumb question, but I didn't > post for a while and when I got back the abbreviation ESE was in > common use. I've been trying to figure out what it stands for, but > for some reason I can't read much of the HB on my computer, and I > haven't been able to trace it all the way back in the archives! > Thanks! > imamommy Ever So Evil = ESE ESE!Lupin - Ever So Evil Lupin. ESE!Percy - Ever So Evil Percy I could send this directly to you, but I thought there might be some other newer members who were confused by this, and this way, they all get an answer. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 18 06:57:15 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 06:57:15 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: Wanda: > Unless his parents weren't married, which I don't believe they were, > which would be yet another bitter pill for Tom Jr. Just giving the > boy the same name as her lover would be of no use at all in trying > stake a claim. And the fact that Tom was brought up in an orphanage > would argue that Tom Sr. had no legal obligation to him. This would > not be the case if he'd married his mother; parents can't just > refuse to acknowledge legitimate children, they're legally > responsible for them. If she'd had a marriage certificate, she > could not have been cast off so easily, and her son would have had > legal protection. Even if he'd divorced her (which is not stated - > the word is "abandoned") he'd have had to provide for their son. Geoff: I quote below a part of my message 83700 which was part of a thread "No sex please, we're British." "Geoff: Perhaps I should point out that your argument is not upheld by evidence in canon: "'You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, common, Muggle who abandoned me even before I was born, just because he found out his /wife/ was a witch? (my emphasis)'" Tom Riddle to Harry (COS UK edition p.231)" From abigailnus at yahoo.com Tue May 18 06:58:53 2004 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 06:58:53 -0000 Subject: JKR's opinon. was What JKR's up to In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98680 > Antosha wrote, speaking of : > Which leads me to my next point: the work isn't finished. Until we can see the opus > complete, it is presumptuous of us to tell the author--the only person on earth who > knows where we're going--that she's wrong about her work. We can't say what Draco is > like yet--we don't have all the data. We can barely say what Harry's like--he's still growing > and changing, as are all of the other characters, something I think JKR is handling better > than any other author of children's books I can think of. > > I think it is miraculous, the imagination, intelligence and breadth of thought that the fans > bring to bear on her work. But it's still her work. Yes, I was actually going to say something about that in my post. Because Harry Potter is essentially a work in progress, the fannish reactions to it differ greatly from your average book fandom. I think we might see greater similarity to HP fandom in fan communities of television series, which are also, to a certain extent, a story in progress. The fact that there are parts of the story that we haven't read does allow us to be wrong in many more ways than your standard fans. I guess we could say there are different levels of wrong. Sometimes we assert facts that are contradicted by canon (Sirius' eyes are blue). Sometimes we presume things about the future that turn out to be false (the female DADA will be a good guy). And sometimes we just disagree with JKR. It's true that JKR knows things about her characters, including their futures, that we can't know. Maybe in future books, Malfoy will do something so horrible that he will lose all reader sympathy (right now he's a little too pathetic for me to hate). However, until that canon exists, we can only react to the canon that we have. So, shall we stop discussing characters that interest us? Shall we stop taking an interest in those characters? Shall we stop feeling for them? As you said, the fact that the HP books lend themselves to so many interpretations, and that even their darkest characters have champions among the fans, is a tribute to the strength and quality of the work. It's possible that in the future JKR's words will cause some of our feelings towards certain characters to change, but that doesn't mean that we can't have those feelings now. All that matters is that JKR makes any changes or character developments natural and realistic. We will follow where she leads us - we don't exactly have a choice. Abigail From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Tue May 18 09:12:46 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:12:46 -0000 Subject: JKR's opinon. was What JKR's up to In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98682 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abigailnus" wrote: > Because Harry Potter is essentially a work in progress, the fannish > reactions to it differ greatly from your average book fandom. (snip) Sometimes we presume things about the future that turn out to be false... > And sometimes we just disagree with JKR. > > It's true that JKR knows things about her characters, including their futures, that we can't know. (snip) However, until that canon exists, we can only react to the canon that we have. So, shall we stop discussing characters that interest us? Shall we stop taking an interest in those characters? Shall we stop feeling for them? > > As you said, the fact that the HP books lend themselves to so many > interpretations, and that even their darkest characters have champions among the fans, is a tribute to the strength and quality of the work. Carolyn: This is a great defence of theorising, and it reminds me of an apposite quote from Rose Macauley that I heard on the radio last night: 'You should always believe what you read in the newspapers, it makes them more interesting.' I think discussion sites like this add immeasurably to what JKR has created, possibly adding a depth and resonance that she could only dream of. This isn't intended as a criticism of her books - novels are a passionate editing exercise in many ways - you have to choose what to leave out as much as what to put in..the reader's mind is left to fill in the gaps. Even when the series is finished, that will be the case: there will always be hot disputes as to what was intended, what *should* have happened etc. I hope JKR continues to observe all this with detached amusement. In any case, the genie is well and truly out of the bottle; I doubt if anyone, even our author, could control it now. From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Tue May 18 09:33:50 2004 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:33:50 -0000 Subject: Jk on Hermione's Loves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98683 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > *Before you think me incredibly sexist, I only talk about Harry > getting his girl as the books are Harry's hero's journey. Hermione > is clearly not a trophy girl. If that was the kind of girl that > Harry needed, I think Cho would be right for him. > > Ali Ali, this is an interesting point you make about the hero's journey. I'm only an amateur at best, but I've always been keenly interested in mythology and psychology. To that end, I've done a bit of reading on Jungian psychology. It seems to me (and I've actually written an essay on this if anyone is interested) that Hermione has increasingly come to function as Harry's anima (feminine aspect). This is a one reason why I believe H/Hr is most likely and has been subtly built within the subtext of the series. I believe that a big part of Harry's hero journey will be the realisation and integration with his feminine aspect, symbolised by his union with Hermione. There is some discussion that can be had about who fills this role for Harry, but I believe that there is ample evidence that it is Hermione. Sienna From jferer at yahoo.com Tue May 18 09:54:38 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:54:38 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98684 Neri: "In a way it is JKR's own fault that nobody just takes her on face value anymore, but regarding shipping she repeatedly told us that we can easily figure it out ourselves, so it means that the most obvious ships are the correct ones." R/H has never seemed obvious to me, though, or to H/H shippers, of which I am one. The R/H clues always seemed desultory and cloudy, maybe an adolescent thing, muddied further in that the Trio is so close anyway. There are strong bonds between them all no matter what. And Hermione is writing to Viktor. Potterfan: " would put my $0.02 on Ginny though. -p0tterfan (Hopes to duck the incoming barge from H/H shippers!)" No barrage. Ginny's fine, but if there's anything obvious here, it's only in JKR's mind. Ginny's stock went up a lot in OoP, though, as she grows so much in independence and gumption. An /excellent/ young lady. And do we have a Luna factor now? I don't think JKR's all that devious, really, just subtle,and the most devious things about her are her statements outside the books. Jim Ferer, who still believes everybody ? repeat, everybody - would be happiest in an H/H Potterverse. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 18 09:56:38 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:56:38 -0000 Subject: No more "Voldie" nickname? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98685 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mikefeemster" wrote: mike feemster: > Hello All, > > I think this is one of those cases where there is a loss of > translation from American English to British English. In my > encounters with people who speak British English, they are more > precise and proper. Americans on the other hand, take great delight > in butchering the language for their own purposes. > > I can give an example of what I'm talking about if you think > about the current and previous American president. If you do not > like George Bush and you are with like minded people, you could > always refer to the president as "Georgie". Likewise if you didn't > like Bill Clinton, he could be refered to as "Billy". > These are not meant to be terms of endearments, but terms of > loathing and disrespect. Geoff: I was having a think about your comments while walking the dog in glorious West of England sunshine an hour or so ago. I'd overlooked the suggestion you make but it is quite right that we, here in the UK, tend to do things like that; a couple of instances occurred to me. In the late 18th/early 19th century, Napoleon who, at that time occupied most of Western Europe, was known to us as "Boney" and it was quite common in the late 1940s/early 1950s to see Stalin being referred to as "Uncle Joe" and these weren't meant as plaudits. From squeakinby at tds.net Tue May 18 11:05:22 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 06:05:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A9EDF2.3020708@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98686 Jim Ferer wrote: > Jim Ferer, who still believes everybody repeat, everybody - would > be happiest in an H/H Potterverse. I vote for Ginny. We don't know anything about the Muggle Dentist Grangers but we know a lot about the Weasleys. The Weasleys would be an entire wizarding family possessing Harry's background. Harry already loves Ron like a brother. This is the family he was denied and it provides Harry an enormous comfort level in the future. It makes all the emotional sense in the world to me. The argument for Hermione being Harry's anima is incredibly astute and she probably is but do we marry ourselves or do we marry "the other"? Jem From jferer at yahoo.com Tue May 18 11:56:29 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:56:29 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS In-Reply-To: <40A9EDF2.3020708@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98687 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: . Jem: > I vote for Ginny. We don't know anything about the Muggle Dentist > Grangers but we know a lot about the Weasleys. The Weasleys would be an entire wizarding family possessing Harry's background. Harry already loves Ron like a brother. This is the family he was denied and it provides Harry an enormous comfort level in the future. It makes all the emotional sense in the world to me. > The argument for Hermione being Harry's anima is incredibly astute and she probably is but do we marry ourselves or do we marry "the other"? I've often said that the differences between Hermione and Harry compliment each other - I used the words yin and yang. Hermione, deliberate, thinking, deep; Harry, instinctive, acting, emotional. Harry needs someone who restrains him when he goes off the deep end, which he is wont to do, and Hermione needs someone that gives her more of a purpose and draws her away from bossiness. She needs someone who needs what she's got. They balance each other, or so I always have thought. To be honest, Harry's not going to be an easy mate for anybody. He's going to be seriously bent by the War, and anybody could respectably argue he's going to be damaged goods not suitable for anyone. How can I say what I want to about Ron without seeming to diss him, which I absolutely don't want to do? Ron's instinct, despite what he's been through, leads him to want a good, decent, and ordinary life. He's going to want a home, a wife, and a family, and that will make him happy. Hermione wants and needs more, I think. She's not Molly. But I agree with you completely about Ginny and the Weasley family. the One Big Happy Weasley Family (OBHWF) idea has given a lot of people sugar shock, but it doesn't have to be so saccharine. Ginny is now a developed character (more to come) and I like her. A lot. The way she's integrated Fred and George into herself *with* better control is powerful, IMO. You have to like it. Jim Ferer From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue May 18 11:55:21 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:55:21 -0000 Subject: JRK is right! Give Voldemort respect.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erin" wrote: > > Erin: > > Well, in that case, what is JKR doing having practically everyone in > > the books calling him by name, having Dumbledore call him "Tom", and > > having Fudge refer to him as "Lord Thingy"? I took Vernon's "Voldything" as JKR's endorsement of the "Voldy" nickname. I guess not, then. Anyway, we of the filking community have the nickname too deeply ensconced in our rhyme and metric schemes to even think of removing it now. Moldy Voldy, cruel and old, he's Resurrected physically But when his wand gets put on hold, he's Forced to look on quizzically.... On the other hand, don't even get me started on the Silent T controversy! - CMC From mkeller01 at alltel.net Tue May 18 12:06:17 2004 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:06:17 -0000 Subject: References to JKR's quotes on upcoming deaths Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98689 With the recent discussion taking place on who will not survive to the end of the series, I thought I'd post a quick reference list I compiled a while ago of JKR's quotes mentioning upcoming deaths (courtesy of Quick Quotes on the Floo Network, of course): CBS News: This Morning 28 June 1999 http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0699- cbsnews.html ASSURAS: Oh. But as all children's -- I want you to tell me the ending -- as all children's books go, most -- there will there be a happy ending. ROWLING: Depends whether or not your favorite character dies because there are going to be deaths. The Press Democrat Santa Rosa, CA 30 October 1999 http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099- pressdem-lauer.html She wouldn't say much about the next book but she did reveal that one of the characters will die before the seven-volume series ends. "I won't say which one, but I will say one of them dies." The Express 28 March 2000 http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0300- express.html She said yesterday that while there are some issues she would never tackle in a children's book - including hard drugs and teenage pregnancies - she would not shy away from addressing themes like death. Declining to reveal who the victim would be, she said: "I've said all along there will be death. You see a death in book four. People should not be too worried about it as there have already been deaths in the books." The Times 30 June 2000 http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0600- treneman-times.html Now, in {Harry Potter and The Goblet of Fire}, death comes for us, too. The identity of the corpse is secret until next Saturday, though she will say that it is a character we care about. "Yes, this is the book in which the deaths start. I always planned it this way. It's become a bit of an {id?e fixe }with me. I have to follow it just the way I wanted to write it and no one is going to knock me off course. If it's done right, I think it will be upsetting but it's not going to be damaging. I have said from the beginning that if you really are honestly going to examine evil actions then you have a moral obligation not to fudge the issue." New York Times July 10, 2000 All Aboard the Potter Express Alan Cowell http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0700-nyt- cowell.htm She intimated that as the series progresses the mood may darken. The death of one character in the fourth book, she said, is "the beginning of the deaths." Canadian Broadcasting Co. July 2000 J.K. ROWLING INTERVIEW http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0700-cbc- solomon.htm E: It opens with a murder and then there's one at the end, which I won't say who it is. And you cried then? JK: Yeah. E: But in the future there's even more... JK: (Laughs deeply) There's worse coming. E: Is there? There's even worse coming, isn't there? JK: I don't know why I'm laughing. It's mild hysteria. (Looks at camera) I've got all these children peering in at me [from outside the train]. If they knew I was talking about slaughtering their favourite characters. (Waves vigorously to fans) Hallo! E: People love Ron, for example. Kids think you're going to knock off Ron because he's the best friend. JK: Kids do, exactly, because they're sharp and they've seen so many films where the hero's best friend gets it. So they think I'm going to make it personal by killing Ron. But maybe that's a double bluff... (Laughs) E: Now that you know they expect it, do you give it to them? JK: No, I decided...It's not that I sat down with a list and decided to write, 'You're going, you're going, you're going.' There are reasons for the deaths in each case, in terms of the story. So that's why I'm doing it. BBC Special Christmas 2001 http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/1201-bbc- staff.htm Death is the most important theme throughout all seven books. "More people are going to die. One death is going to be horrible to write. IT HAS TO BE." Guardian Unlimited Books Friday December 28, 2001 http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/1201- guardian-yates.htm Describing the chapter, she says, "this really wraps everything, it's the epilogue and I basically say what happens to everyone after they leave school, those who survive - because there are deaths, more deaths coming...There's at least one death that's going to be horrible to write." So, there you have it. Either Sirius was the "one death", or half the characters or better will bite the dust. Interpret as you will. Toad (who firmly believes Harry will experience a purely symbolic death...won't speak for the others, though) From tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com Tue May 18 12:37:21 2004 From: tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 08:37:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What if it's not his powers? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98690 gregory_lynn at yahoo.com: <<>> > If he has to sacrifice what he wants the most, I think it will be a > family. <<>> > But at some point Harry has to make a decision that ends up costing > Ron's life. Neither Hermione nor Ginny can really ever forgive him, > yada yada et cetera and so forth. I agree with you that Harry probably won't be sacrificing his powers. However, I very much disagree that he will end up sacrificing someone important to him. For one, it's a difficult way to end a story, making both the reader & characters uncomfortable with someone they've watch grow. At its heart, HP still attempts at being a children's series, and I can't see JKR, someone who vehemently wants us to dislike Voldemort, ending her series with her beloved character having to make such a monumental decision. Good still does good in the world of Harry Potter, and good does not sacrifice people other than the self. Voldemort definitely sends his minions to their death, but the side of good still does not attempt to do so. Deaths on the side of good are still willing sacrifices by the participants. JKR has drawn the dividing line between good and evil fairly clearly, and there is minimal grey space in between. Granted, Harry is growing and seeing more grey space, but at the end of the series, he's really still just a boy with a rather giant-sized "knight in shining armor" complex. While he may grow and mature enough to make important decisions regarding other people's lives, I don't think he'll cross that line. It's a slippery slope that JKR may not want to deal with, especially at the twilight of her series. Moreover, I think JKR genuinely is in love with the Golden Trio. Sacrificing them or anyone close to them, therefore anyone Harry values, would cause an irreparable rip in the fabric of their friendship. To put it simplistically, I don't think she wants to end the series with the Trio at odds like that. It's a silly assumption, but generally, writers don't give characters that they've grown fond of a sad ending. Harry having to sacrifice someone close to him would make for a very bittersweet ending, indeed. ~Ali [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rtb333 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 12:55:57 2004 From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:55:57 -0000 Subject: References to JKR's quotes on upcoming deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jksunflower2002" wrote: > BBC Special > Christmas 2001 > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/1201- bbc- > staff.htm > > Death is the most important theme throughout all seven books. "More > people are going to die. One death is going to be horrible to write. > IT HAS TO BE." > > > Guardian Unlimited Books > Friday December 28, 2001 > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/1201- > guardian-yates.htm > > Describing the chapter, she says, "this really wraps everything, > it's the epilogue and I basically say what happens to everyone after > they leave school, those who survive - because there are deaths, > more deaths coming...There's at least one death that's going to be > horrible to write." > > > So, there you have it. Either Sirius was the "one death", or half > the characters or better will bite the dust. Interpret as you will. > > Toad (who firmly believes Harry will experience a purely symbolic > death...won't speak for the others, though) Rob Now:\ I am 100% positive that Serius's death is not the one death that was really hard to write. Remember in either GOF or OOTP, (books not available at this moment) Firenz says that this is just a calm between two wars and the second is worse than the first. The first war saw the end of the Potters and the deaths of many characters not to mention what happened to the Longbottoms. Since this one is supposed to be worse according to the stars, we are going to see the deaths of a few characters that we hold close to our hearts. Robert out. From squeakinby at tds.net Tue May 18 13:59:13 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 08:59:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40AA16B1.4070104@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98692 Jim Ferer wrote: > > I've often said that the differences between Hermione and Harry > compliment each other - I used the words yin and yang. > > Hermione, deliberate, thinking, deep; Harry, instinctive, acting, > emotional. Harry needs someone who restrains him when he goes off the > deep end, which he is wont to do, and Hermione needs someone that > gives her more of a purpose and draws her away from bossiness. She > needs someone who needs what she's got. They balance each other, or > so I always have thought. You're right here. So much of this speculation depends on what each individual thinks is the appropriate or ideal way to choose a mate. I agree that Hermione acts as a balance but I would ask if one should be doing that in an interior fashion (Harry balances himself) or if he seeks this balance outside of himself (with Hermione). > > To be honest, Harry's not going to be an easy mate for anybody. He's > going to be seriously bent by the War, and anybody could respectably > argue he's going to be damaged goods not suitable for anyone. I wouldn't say damaged goods. People go thru war experiences yet manage to stay emotionally intact--we could name quite a few political individuals in America at the moment who seem to have gone thru fairly horrendous experiences yet have gone on to long marriages, family and service to the country. I'm thinking John McCain at the moment. And that's one reason why I vote for Ginny. She has been touched "intimately" by LV hence is the only other person who shares this unique experience with Harry. Yet she's definitely "the other". Hermione for me is detached involvement. She loves him but as a friend, there's no spark no frisson. Of course there's currently no frisson with anyone now that, thankfully, Cho is off the emotional canvas. The outcome is what JKR instinctively believes makes a good pairing, as personal a decision for her as for us. Unless we wind up with Harry Potter 10--The Travails of Divorce Court. Daily Prophet headline "Voldemort Defeater sued for child support! He claims 'I have no gold!'" Jem From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue May 18 13:48:40 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:48:40 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS In-Reply-To: <40AA16B1.4070104@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: > Jim Ferer wrote: > > > > > I've often said that the differences between Hermione and Harry > > compliment each other - I used the words yin and yang. > > > > Hermione, deliberate, thinking, deep; Harry, instinctive, acting, > > emotional. Harry needs someone who restrains him when he goes off the > > deep end, which he is wont to do, and Hermione needs someone that > > gives her more of a purpose and draws her away from bossiness. She > > needs someone who needs what she's got. They balance each other, or > > so I always have thought. > > You're right here. So much of this speculation depends on what each > individual thinks is the appropriate or ideal way to choose a mate. I > agree that Hermione acts as a balance but I would ask if one should be > doing that in an interior fashion (Harry balances himself) or if he > seeks this balance outside of himself (with Hermione). > > > > To be honest, Harry's not going to be an easy mate for anybody. He's > > going to be seriously bent by the War, and anybody could respectably > > argue he's going to be damaged goods not suitable for anyone. > > I wouldn't say damaged goods. People go thru war experiences yet manage > to stay emotionally intact--we could name quite a few political > individuals in America at the moment who seem to have gone thru fairly > horrendous experiences yet have gone on to long marriages, family and > service to the country. I'm thinking John McCain at the moment. > > And that's one reason why I vote for Ginny. She has been touched > "intimately" by LV hence is the only other person who shares this unique > experience with Harry. Yet she's definitely "the other". Hermione for > me is detached involvement. She loves him but as a friend, there's no > spark no frisson. > > Of course there's currently no frisson with anyone now that, thankfully, > Cho is off the emotional canvas. > > The outcome is what JKR instinctively believes makes a good pairing, as > personal a decision for her as for us. Unless we wind up with Harry > Potter 10--The Travails of Divorce Court. Daily Prophet headline > "Voldemort Defeater sued for child support! He claims 'I have no gold!'" > > Jem This thread has made me think of something that may make no sense to anyone other than myself: what Harry needs is to turn the corner so that he actually pursues his desires. (Warning: TMI) When I was a young teen, it never occurred to me that any young woman might find me attractive. A few actually did--so they told me later--but I was oblivious. Harry seems to be stuck in the same mode. Two girls that we know have had crushes on him--Ginny and Cho--but while he was aware of Ginny's crush, he didn't know what to do with it. (In fairness, they were twelve and eleven at the time, so there wasn't much to do.) It strikes me that Harry will find SHIP when he finds the inner strength to see a girl, find her attractive, and actually act on his feelings. Another thing that has come up this thread: the hero's journey. JKR *must* have read some Jung, Otto Rank, or Joseph Campbell (http://www.jcf.org/), because her books do in fact work out the hero journey cycle quite explicitly--both as individual volumes and as a series, so far. Now, in Campbell's hero journey scheme, which he set out in Hero with a THousand Faces, the hero heads out into the world of adventure and magic, goes through a series of trials, including being swallowed by and defeating the monster (eg LV) and the sacred marriage. THen he brings the boon that he has gained (and it can be a she, btw) back to the mundane world. Say Harry loses some or all of his magical power in the final battle? (I'm embarrassed to say that I've written a fanfic in which this is a central issue.) Which of the likely candidates would follow Harry back were he to live, Mrs. Figg-like, in the muggle world? Pure-blood Ginny? At-least-half-blood Luna? Or muggle-born Hermione? Having said that, another issue has come up that intrigues me: that the ship will involve Harry finding and integrating his anima. In the Jungian/Campbellian schema, the anima (for the woman it's the animus) represents all of those subconscious parts of yourself that you identify with the opposite sex. It is (in the male) the feminine ideal--what Freud would have called the mother figure that you subconsciously desire to marry. (I know, Freud gives me the willies too.) In that view, which of the major candidates for Harry's true love make any sense? Let's see, what do we know about Lily? That she was spunky and independent (as seen in OotP "Snape' Worst Memory") and that she was extremely brave (as evidenced by the way that she protected Harry). Oh, and she's a redhead. Who does that sound like? As I've said before, I'm open to any ship--or even Harry alone, still waiting for his OTP--so long as JKR doesn't pretend that a teen who feels as intensely as Harry does wouldn't be interested in romance at all.... Antosha, who himself has a bit of a thing for redheads. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 18 13:56:53 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 08:56:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sharing names - Heritage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98694 Wanda: > Unless his parents weren't married, which I don't believe they were, > which would be yet another bitter pill for Tom Jr. Just giving the > boy the same name as her lover would be of no use at all in trying > stake a claim. And the fact that Tom was brought up in an orphanage > would argue that Tom Sr. had no legal obligation to him. This would > not be the case if he'd married his mother; parents can't just > refuse to acknowledge legitimate children, they're legally > responsible for them. If she'd had a marriage certificate, she > could not have been cast off so easily, and her son would have had > legal protection. Even if he'd divorced her (which is not stated - > the word is "abandoned") he'd have had to provide for their son. "Geoff: "'You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, common, Muggle who abandoned me even before I was born, just because he found out his /wife/ was a witch? (my emphasis)'" sorry guys Gina: I think the key factor here is "whom" his mother was. My bet is that she is on the Black tapestry somewhere. As Sirius said all purebloods are related somehow..... ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 18 14:05:07 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:05:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98695 Jim Ferer, who still believes everybody - repeat, everybody - would be happiest in an H/H Potterverse. I agree. I think the main reason H/G is out is because that would leave Neville alone and I will never believe JKR would do that to him. He likes Ginny and I believe she likes him. Harry was a first crush just as the books said. I am not certain of H/H but I hope to see it and I think it will come to pass. I think R/H is another one of those things where a boy "thinks" he is in love with his b/f and ends up being wrong. I think she teases Ron because she does not realize how much he cares for her. Hermione is playing hard to get and will get Harry in the end. He is the one she is always kissing and look how upset she is when he yells at her. She loves him, but they are both (H/H) too worried about more important things to deal with it now. Look in PoA when the whomping willow strikes - Hermione is grabbing onto Harry and she always looks for reasons to hug or kiss him on the cheek. Being 24 it was not that long ago I was in her shoes, and when a girl likes a boy that is a friend she will do things like that in a "friendly" manner just to get away with it unnoticed! Gina - the Harry Potter romantic theorist :-) ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 18 14:28:11 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:28:11 -0000 Subject: JKR's opinon. was What JKR's up to In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98696 Antosha wrote: > > Which leads me to my next point: the work isn't finished. Until > > we can see the opus complete, it is presumptuous of us to tell > > the author--the only person on earth who knows where we're going-- > > that she's wrong about her work. We can't say what Draco is > > like yet--we don't have all the data. We can barely say what > > Harry's like--he's still growing and changing, as are all of the > > other characters, something I think JKR is handling better > > than any other author of children's books I can think of. Abigailnus [which I can't type w/o thinking of Frank Abagnale]: > Yes, I was actually going to say something about that in my post. > Because Harry Potter is essentially a work in progress, the fannish > reactions to it differ greatly from your average book fandom. The > fact that there are parts of the story that we haven't read does > allow us to be wrong in many more ways than your standard fans. I > guess we could say there are different levels of wrong. Sometimes > we assert facts that are contradicted by canon (Sirius' eyes are > blue). Sometimes we presume things about the future that turn out > to be false (the female DADA will be a good guy). And sometimes we > just disagree with JKR. > > It's true that JKR knows things about her characters, including > their futures, that we can't know. Maybe in future books, Malfoy > will do something so horrible that he will lose all reader sympathy > (right now he's a little too pathetic for me to hate). However, > until that canon exists, we can only react to the canon that we > have. So, shall we stop discussing characters that interest us? > Shall we stop taking an interest in those characters? Shall we > stop feeling for them? SSSusan: I've enjoyed both your comments very much and agree. Abigail, re: your questions here at the end. Heck no, we shouldn't stop discussing or taking interest or having feeling for the characters; that's what all the fun here is about, imo. What I can get a little frustrated with is when people appear to be judging JKR *already* for what they think she's "done" to the characters or the story, how she's ruined X or Y, without waiting for what's to come. Of course, it's anybody's right to decide the books aren't for them and to ditch the series at any time. But I'm taking any concerns I have & weaknesses I see with a grain of salt *for now.* As Abigail said, maybe JKR will write a storyline in which Draco does something so horrible that it would be difficult for anyone to have sympathy for him or to find him appealing. Any final judgments of Draco or JKR for how she's drawn him would be premature, correct? It's kind of like the many here who have recently stated that Voldy, well, isn't really that scary! Some found him kind of weak at the end of OoP and feel that he just hasn't elicited a great deal of fear. As another recently posted, if *this* is the "condition" Voldy is in when Harry defeats him, then I think many WILL be disappointed in JKR for not fleshing out her villain more fully and giving us reasons why we should be scared. So I can see approaching this with a little concern but not passing a summary judgment on JKR now for why she's doing "a crappy job". She might just have a reason for what she's doing & how she's doing it. Siriusly Snapey Susan, who's got a nasty headache and so wonders if she really shouldn't have written this.... Be gentle, please!? From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue May 18 14:34:10 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:34:10 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98697 Antosha (that's me) wrote: > This thread has made me think of something that may make no sense to anyone other > than myself: what Harry needs is to turn the corner so that he actually pursues his desires. > (Warning: TMI) When I was a young teen, it never occurred to me that any young woman > might find me attractive. A few actually did--so they told me later--but I was oblivious. > Harry seems to be stuck in the same mode. > > Two girls that we know have had crushes on him--Ginny and Cho--but while he was > aware of Ginny's crush, he didn't know what to do with it. (In fairness, they were twelve > and eleven at the time, so there wasn't much to do.) It strikes me that Harry will find SHIP > when he finds the inner strength to see a girl, find her attractive, and actually act on his > feelings. > The thing I forgot to say before I got all caught up in Jungian stuff was this: wouldn't it be interesting if Harry suddenly had to pursue Ginny? "Hi, Ginevra, I know you're dating Dean, and I know you're over that crush and all, but I've suddenly realized I fancy you...." Antosha, who may have a thing for redheads, but whose wife is nothing at all like his mother, so what is a Jungian to do with that? From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 18 14:40:52 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:40:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98698 Alla: > If I pretend for a second that I believe that Sirius is really dead, then the answer is Yes, that is what I think. Of course, even completely sane Sirius would have wanted to rush to Harry's rescue, but would he have been in the better emotional condition, he would have at least lsitened to sound advise (I think), even if that was advice from Snape. :o) > Pippin: I guess we'll just have to disagree on that. Sirius had a saving people thing, and he had it a lot longer than Harry. IMO, he'd have gone to the Ministry no matter who told him to stay behind. After losing Lily and James the way he did, how could he have lived with himself if something had happened to Harry and he hadn't tried to help? > Neri: > You can still keep an eye on someone's house or favorite place, and whatever are the limitations on tracking apparating wizards, they apply the same to Lupin, Moody and the rest of the Order members. < Pippin: Perhaps that's why they weren't doing it either. As far as we know, watch was not kept on the Malfoy manor or the exterior of the Ministry. Nor does either side seem to have been keeping exterior watch on Grimmauld Place. Guard was kept on the targets: Privet Drive and the entrance to the Department of Mysteries. And the guard on Privet Drive wasn't to keep the Death Eaters from getting in, it was to make sure Harry wasn't set up by the Ministry, who would have loved to have evidence that Harry is not only unstable, he's in league with the Death Eater Sirius Black. Nope, can't send Sirius there. As for the DoM, suppose Sirius instead of Arthur had been on duty the night Nagini attacked. Do you think he'd have been rushed to St. Mungo's? He'd have been kissed on the spot. Neri: >I was referring only for wasting his great potential for a whole year doing house cleaning and feeding a hippogryph< Pippin: Potential to do what? I'm afraid the mission wouldn't have interested Sirius unless it was really dangerous, and on any dangerous mission, somebody might have made a mistake and he might have died. I think the real complaint here is against JKR, who's up against the same problem Shakespeare had with Mercutio. It seems a sad waste to create a wonderful character only so he can die and make the hero feel like a failure. But that, I'm afraid, is what Sirius was for. Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 18 14:41:21 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:41:21 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98699 Antosha wrote: > Say Harry loses some or all of his magical power in the final > battle? (I'm embarrassed to say that I've written a fanfic in which > this is a central issue.) Which of the likely candidates would > follow Harry back were he to live, Mrs. Figg-like, in the muggle > world? Pure-blood Ginny? At-least-half-blood Luna? Or muggle-born > Hermione? Siriusly Snapey Susan: Antosha, since I'm one of the ones who considers Harry's losing his magical powers as a possibility for the conclusion, I'm intrigued by this. I'm curious why you think the woman might have to "follow Harry back...in the muggle world"? Why couldn't Harry STAY in the WW? I'd think he'd want to--it's what he knows and loves; it's where those he cares about all reside. It's not like people would shun him and say, "Eeew, you've lost all your powers! We don't want you around us!" I could see Harry quite nicely continuing to live in the WW...with help, of course. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From l_hooper at sbcglobal.net Tue May 18 14:09:18 2004 From: l_hooper at sbcglobal.net (Laura E Hooper) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape Message-ID: <20040518140918.29123.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98700 Pippin wrote: JKR intorduced another means of remaining hidden at the beginning of OoP...the disillusionment charm. (I think that is the correct name.) Would this have provided enough protection for Sirius to leave Grimmauld Place? Or was Harry's flight from Privet Drive the only time we will see that? Laura [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From albus696 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 14:15:58 2004 From: albus696 at yahoo.com (Albus Dell) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Contradictions in "Quiddich Through the Ages" Message-ID: <20040518141558.26852.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98701 I've found the following inconsistancies in the book "Quiddich Through the Ages": 1) In 1674, the Brittish and Irish League was founded, and the 13 best teams were chosen to continue to play, and still exist. What about the Banchory Bangers, which were disbanded in 1814? 2) In 1473, all 700 fouls were commited. What about stooging, only disallowed in 1884? Does anyone have any ideas? albus696 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 18 14:53:09 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:53:09 -0000 Subject: DoM and Nott, Sr Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98702 I'm sure I saw a post once that attempted to sort out who went where during the DoM battle. Can anyone direct me to a post, or help answer this question in general. Do we know what happened to Nott after he was left behind by Malfoy during the battle? Were his "injuries" caused by Hermione's "stupefy"? and would that have put him out of commission for the rest of the battle? One of the other DE's gets up right away after such a curse (BabyHead) and although we heard some names of the DEs at the battle, during the fight they are often referred to as "another DE appeared...." To be honest, I'm completely lost in that chapter! I'm also trying to remember if we see him other than the battle and the graveyard. I'm sort of wondering how loyal he really is. Potioncat From TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com Tue May 18 14:22:35 2004 From: TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com (TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:22:35 -0400 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: <658E0195.5B7C6792.FD754928@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98703 Gina wrote: "I think the main reason H/G is out is because that would leave Neville alone and I will never believe JKR would do that to him" But if Hermione has Harry, where does that leave Ron? Why would she leave Ron out in the cold like that? Ron obviously likes Hermione, I think Harry dating Hermione would ruin the trio. Luna going with Neville makes more sense. Ginny going with Harry fit with JKR's parents' experience where they met at King's Cross (Harry meets or sees Ginny at platform 9 3/4). From laurens at leroc.net Tue May 18 13:10:24 2004 From: laurens at leroc.net (lauren_silverwolf) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:10:24 -0000 Subject: No more "Voldie" nickname? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98704 Geoff Bannister wrote: > In the late 18th/early 19th century, Napoleon who, at that time > occupied most of Western Europe, was known to us as "Boney" and it > was quite common in the late 1940s/early 1950s to see Stalin being > referred to as "Uncle Joe" and these weren't meant as plaudits. And indeed, more recently, the use of "Comical Ali"? I think we are meant to take these comments as tongue-in-cheek. All throughout the series there are examples of where words could be taken differently, if it were not for the context. For instance - right at the very start of Philosopher's Stone: ..."in fact, Mrs Dursley pretended she didn't have a sister, because her sister and her good-for-nothing husband were as unDursleyish as it was possible to be"... It's already clear, from the previous unflattering descriptions of the Dursleys, even halfway down the very first page of the very first book, that we're not meant to be sympathetic towards their viewpoint, and to already question whether James is truly a "good-for-nothing". With such examples as this, in addition to witnessing her previous use of names such as "Lord Thingy" and "Voldything", I firmly believe believe that it was meant ironically, and she meant us to appreciate the knowing humour in her website comments. Perhaps it's reactions to the use of irony in humour that are different on both sides of the pond, as opposed to name calling? From albus696 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 14:29:16 2004 From: albus696 at yahoo.com (Albus Dell) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sharing names Message-ID: <20040518142916.98963.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98705 Wanda wrote: And then it occurred to me...how very odd that that would be the case! It's unusual in Rowling's books for a father and son to have the same name. In fact, I can think of only one other example: Barty Crouch Sr. and Jr. My (albus696) answer: About Tom, I find it interesting that there are 3 characters in the series named Tom - the third being the inn keeper at The Leaky Cauldron. albus696 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue May 18 15:05:29 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:05:29 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98706 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: "K" wrote: > > OoP-Ch 37-pg 830-US > > ~~"When, however, you did not return from your trip into the > forest > > with Dolored Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still > > believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Vodemort's. He alerted > > certain Order members at once."~~ Potioncat: > I cannot snip any more of this and still have it work. I did snip > Mel's part about Snape possibly taunting Black as he asked him to > remain behind. So now I'm adding my 2 knuts as I agree with "K" > Of course we don't know how Snape requested Black to stay and I > don't think of us who have an opinion will change those with an > different one. But IMHO, it was Black who started the taunting at > Grimmauld Place. I can't see it would have served Snape to get >into that game now. Mel: >At that time, but it was *my understanding* that Sirius was under a >Standing Order from Dumbledore to SIT TIGHT. I'm sure Snape would >have said something like, "You know how DD feels about this..." >Something along those lines certainly, after the taunting. I'm sure >Sirius got his licks in as well. Snape couldn't go to the DOM >either, notice. "K": I know Snape and Sirius have a habit of taunting each other but I just think this was such an important event that there wasn't much time for that. It's possible there were one or two licks between Snape and Sirius but I don't believe Snape speaks to any other person in the Order that way. It's a personal thing between Snape and Sirius and possibly Lupin. All I really wanted to point out is that even though Snape can be petty at times I don't believe this was one of them. Too much was at stake. >Mel, who never, ever can be accused of making Snape the whipping >boy. "K": Ah, well, my humblest apologies! From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue May 18 15:06:31 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:06:31 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Antosha wrote: > > Say Harry loses some or all of his magical power in the final > > battle? (I'm embarrassed to say that I've written a fanfic in which > > this is a central issue.) Which of the likely candidates would > > follow Harry back were he to live, Mrs. Figg-like, in the muggle > > world? Pure-blood Ginny? At-least-half-blood Luna? Or muggle-born > > Hermione? > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > Antosha, since I'm one of the ones who considers Harry's losing his > magical powers as a possibility for the conclusion, I'm intrigued by > this. I'm curious why you think the woman might have to "follow > Harry back...in the muggle world"? Why couldn't Harry STAY in the > WW? I'd think he'd want to--it's what he knows and loves; it's where > those he cares about all reside. It's not like people would shun him > and say, "Eeew, you've lost all your powers! We don't want you > around us!" > > I could see Harry quite nicely continuing to live in the WW...with > help, of course. :-) > > Siriusly Snapey Susan I was just following Campbell's scheme on the most literal level--the last stage of the jounrrey is called "The Return." Think about it this way: each of the books begins and ends in the muggle world; wouldn't it make sense for the series to end that way? (I'm not married to this, btw, just woolgathering...) I was thinking more in terms of Harry looking up and wanting to live in a world where he would be considered whole.... From dk59us at yahoo.com Tue May 18 15:00:03 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:00:03 -0000 Subject: Whose sacrifice? was Re: What if it's not his powers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98708 Ali" wrote: > > Moreover, I think JKR genuinely is in love with the Golden Trio. Sacrificing them or anyone close to them, therefore anyone Harry values, would cause an irreparable rip in the fabric of their friendship. To put it simplistically, I don't think she wants to end the series with the Trio at odds like that. It's a silly assumption, but generally, writers don't give characters that they've grown fond of a sad ending. Harry having to sacrifice someone close to him would make for a very bittersweet ending, indeed. > > ~Ali Eustace_Scrubb: I think I know what you're saying here, but I hope that JKR isn't so attached to the characters that she ends the series with a too-neat ending. I doubt very much that Harry will make a decision to sacrifice Ron or Hermione or Neville or Ginny or Luna. I am fairly certain that any of those five and undoubtedly others by the end of Book 7 would be willing to sacrifice themselves for Harry. Remember in PS/SS, Ron insisted on sacrificing himself to win the chess match; he didn't allow the others to dissuade him. If one of the central characters loses his/her life, I suspect it will be a similar self-sacrifice. And Harry (and the readers) will need to learn another aspect of Dumbledore's COS wisdom: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." That is, we know Harry by _his_ choices and we'll come to know others by their own choices. The Harry of OoTP would beat himself up if any of those five had died at the Ministry, despite the fact that each of them chose to go along. By the end of Book 7, he may have gained the wisdom to understand that he is responsible for his choices and that his friends are equally responsible for their own. (And thinking about it in those terms, I think Ron and Hermione will probably make it, but that Neville may well not--he tends to make courageous decisions that go beyond his abilities--although his abilities are certainly improving). As hypothetical as that sort of ending is, it gets the Trio to the end of the series alive, sadder yet wiser than before, with a chance at a full adult life ahead of them. (which we'll learn little of, unless JKR ends up like Conan Doyle, trying and failing to free herself from her greatest creation.) Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue May 18 15:08:43 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:08:43 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > "Geoff: > > Perhaps I should point out that your argument is not upheld by > evidence in canon: > > "'You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for > ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, > through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, common, Muggle > who abandoned me even before I was born, just because he found out > his /wife/ was a witch? (my emphasis)'" > > Tom Riddle to Harry (COS UK edition p.231)" I stand corrected. Well, in that case, it was illogical writing on Rowling's part. If a woman from a small village had married the son of the rich family who lived in the big house, it would have been common knowledge to everyone in town. If they'd kept it secret, she could have exposed him when he deserted her. A wife has power, a mistress has none. And there's no reason for the state to take care of an "orphan" if he has a legal father or other relatives to do so, so Tom could not have ended up in an orphanage the way she describes. Wanda From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 18 15:11:34 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:11:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98710 Gina wrote: "I think the main reason H/G is out is because that would leave Neville alone and I will never believe JKR would do that to him" But if Hermione has Harry, where does that leave Ron? Why would she leave Ron out in the cold like that? Ron obviously likes Hermione, I think Harry dating Hermione would ruin the trio. Luna going with Neville makes more sense. Ginny going with Harry fit with JKR's parents' experience where they met at King's Cross (Harry meets or sees Ginny at platform 9 3/4). Gina again: He met Hermione on the train! I think Luna likes Ron, but I think Ron will end up with someone that we do not expect or maybe even know yet. Besides, as sad as I am to say it, if any of the Golden Trio die it will IMO be Ron :-( ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From squeakinby at tds.net Tue May 18 16:17:12 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:17:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: <658E0195.5B7C6792.FD754928@aol.com> References: <658E0195.5B7C6792.FD754928@aol.com> Message-ID: <40AA3708.5080402@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98711 TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com wrote: > Gina wrote: > "I think the main reason H/G is out is because that > would leave Neville alone and I will never believe JKR would do that to him" Why does Neville have to have someone, he has his mimbulous mimbletonia. He'll work with Prof. Sprout, he'll eventually take over herbology, meeting a nice witch with dragon dung under her fingernails and they will live happily ever after slapping Teething Tentaculas to keep them in place. All the arguing between Hermione & Ron is sexual tension with nowhere to go. Even Harry recognizes that. It's classic. Watch daytime TV for a week and you'll see it played 20 times. Jem From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 18 15:20:54 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:20:54 -0000 Subject: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98712 Potioncat: Do we know what happened to Nott > after he was left behind by Malfoy during the battle? Were > his "injuries" caused by Hermione's "stupefy"? and would that have > put him out of commission for the rest of the battle? > Potioncat: Sloppy homework! I just realized that on JKR's site she describes Nott as having been seriously injured at the battle. I'm still not sure how Hermione's curse did that unless it was because he was elderly. So why would you take an elderly wizard to a battle? More importantly, who will take care of Theo now that his elderly, injured father is in Azkaban? Potioncat who knows this was probably all worked out long before she joined this group. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 18 15:26:15 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:26:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98713 * Gina wrote: > "I think the main reason H/G is out is because that > would leave Neville alone and I will never believe JKR would do that to him" Why does Neville have to have someone, he has his mimbulous mimbletonia. He'll work with Prof. Sprout, he'll eventually take over herbology, meeting a nice witch with dragon dung under her fingernails and they will live happily ever after slapping Teething Tentaculas to keep them in place. All the arguing between Hermione & Ron is sexual tension with nowhere to go. Even Harry recognizes that. It's classic. Watch daytime TV for a week and you'll see it played 20 times. Jem * * gina: * The weasley family ending just seems a little too overdone and cheesy for JKR but who knows? Gina - who hates to think of anything sexual with 14-15 year olds :-) ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From squeakinby at tds.net Tue May 18 16:33:21 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:33:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40AA3AD1.80604@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98714 Miller, Gina (JIS) wrote: > Gina - who hates to think of anything sexual with 14-15 year olds :-) So don't we all which is why, gratefully, it has nowhere to go! But JKR made the point many times that hormones would begin to take over and there's no reason to think that the Harry/Cho aberration was the only instance of hormones at work. Although that whole bit of hormones business is on my "don't go there" list as well. Jem From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 18 15:38:35 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:38:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98715 Miller, Gina (JIS) wrote: Gina - who hates to think of anything sexual with 14-15 year olds :-) -------------- So don't we all which is why, gratefully, it has nowhere to go! But JKR made the point many times that hormones would begin to take over and there's no reason to think that the Harry/Cho aberration was the only instance of hormones at work. Although that whole bit of hormones business is on my "don't go there" list as well. Jem ___________ I don't know why I am even in this debate -LMAO! My only concern is that Dobby lives! Gina - who actually named her show dog after the infamous house elf! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 18 15:43:29 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:43:29 -0000 Subject: Would he stay or would he go? (was:Re: Clues for SHIPS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98716 Antosha wrote: >>> Say Harry loses some or all of his magical power in the final battle? Which of the likely candidates would follow Harry back were he to live, Mrs. Figg-like, in the muggle world? Pure-blood Ginny? At-least-half-blood Luna? Or muggle-born Hermione?<<< Siriusly Snapey Susan: >> Antosha, since I'm one of the ones who considers Harry's losing his magical powers as a possibility for the conclusion, I'm intrigued by this. I'm curious why you think the woman might have to "follow Harry back...in the muggle world"? Why couldn't Harry STAY in the WW? I'd think he'd want to--it's what he knows and loves; it's where those he cares about all reside. It's not like people would shun him and say, "Eeew, you've lost all your powers! We don't want you around us!" I could see Harry quite nicely continuing to live in the WW...with help, of course. :-)<< Antosha replied: > I was just following Campbell's scheme on the most literal level-- > the last stage of the jounrrey is called "The Return." Think about > it this way: each of the books begins and ends in the muggle world; > wouldn't it make sense for the series to end that way? (I'm not > married to this, btw, just woolgathering...) > > I was thinking more in terms of Harry looking up and wanting to > live in a world where he would be considered whole.... SSSusan again: Thanks for the explanation. Now I see what you mean about following the pattern established already. I still think Harry, with a little time, and the love of good friends & a good woman [OBHWF! ], would relish his continued participation in the WW **and** the fact that he could live a much more low-key life there. No more being called upon to save the world from an Evil Overlord! Just a thought. Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 18 15:46:41 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:46:41 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot and a pun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98717 > Gina - who hates to think of anything sexual with 14-15 year olds :-) > -------------- > > Jem > I don't know why I am even in this debate -LMAO! My only concern is > that Dobby lives! > >Gina - who actually named her show dog after the infamous house elf! Potioncat I have two teens and a tween...too much hormones already! And when Hermione said that Ginny was "going with someone" I said, "Oh no she isn't Missy!" or some such motherly type comment. BTW I just discovered that dobby is a type of dish cloth. Did everyone else already get that joke? Potioncat From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 18 15:48:42 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:48:42 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98718 Geoff: > > "'You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for > > ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin > > himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, > > common, Muggle who abandoned me even before I was born, just > > because he found out his /wife/ was a witch? (my emphasis)'" > > > > Tom Riddle to Harry (COS UK edition p.231)" Wanda: > I stand corrected. Well, in that case, it was illogical writing on > Rowling's part. A wife has power, a mistress has none. > And there's no reason for the state to take care of an "orphan" if > he has a legal father or other relatives to do so, so Tom could not > have ended up in an orphanage the way she describes. > SSSusan: I disagree. There are ways that a child can end up in the care of the state even if he/she has a biological parent still alive. Tom Sr. might have refused to care for the child, he might have abused him, or might even have claimed that the child wasn't his--that Tom's mother had had an affair. (Who would be there to deny it? Do they do blood tests in the WW?) Tom Jr. might well have been put into the only place where he could receive care: an orphanage. Siriusly Snapey Susan From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 18 15:56:50 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:56:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot and a pu n Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98719 Potioncat I have two teens and a tween...too much hormones already! And when Hermione said that Ginny was "going with someone" I said, "Oh no she isn't Missy!" or some such motherly type comment. BTW I just discovered that dobby is a type of dish cloth. Did everyone else already get that joke? Potioncat Gina: I have found at least 50 uses of the name Dobby sense Harry Potter - from clothing to houses. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 18 15:59:18 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:59:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Would he stay or would he go? (was:Re: Clues for SHIPS) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98720 SSSusan again: Thanks for the explanation. Now I see what you mean about following the pattern established already. I still think Harry, with a little time, and the love of good friends & a good woman [OBHWF! ], would relish his continued participation in the WW **and** the fact that he could live a much more low-key life there. No more being called upon to save the world from an Evil Overlord! Just a thought. Siriusly Snapey Susan Gina: I am not big on Harry losing ALL his powers, but someone has to teach Muggle Studies.... If he loses them but wants to stay it's a possiblility.. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cubs9911 at aol.com Tue May 18 16:03:39 2004 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:03:39 -0000 Subject: Ron's future/ Was Clues for SHIPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98721 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: > . > > How can I say what I want to about Ron without seeming to diss him, > which I absolutely don't want to do? Ron's instinct, despite what > he's been through, leads him to want a good, decent, and ordinary > life. He's going to want a home, a wife, and a family, and that will > make him happy. Hermione wants and needs more, I think. She's not Molly. > JR: I disagree here. I think Ron has a lot of aspiration. He is still young and I think we have yet to see him at his best. When Harry looked into the mirror of Erised he saw family. So the thing that Harry desire's for his life is to have a family. When Ron looked he saw himself being head boy and winning the house cup and the quidditch cup. I think Ron wants to set himself apart from the rest of the Weasleys and I think now that his brothers are gone he will really shine. If anything, I think Harry will be the one that will want to settle down after the war is over. He has never liked the fame, and I think he will be happy to live quietly with his family and friends. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 18 15:52:32 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:52:32 -0000 Subject: Not so ESE:Lupin In-Reply-To: <20040517181811.59271.qmail@web50301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Justine wrote: > So many Lupin supporters have used the JKR quote about wishing she had someone like him as a teacher to dispute the ESE theory. Now, I still think it's valid, of course. Why would she want someone who's ever so evil as a professor? But there's more to the quote that, I believe, we've been missing: > > "I was also playing with that [intolerance] when I created Professor Lupin, who has a condition which is contagious, of course, and so people are very frightened of him; and I really like Professor Lupin as a character because he's someone that also has a failing, because although he is a wonderful teacher (one I myself would have liked to have had as a teacher) and a WONDERFUL MAN, he does like to be liked and that's where he slips up. He's been disliked so often that he's always so pleased to have friends, so he cuts them an awful lot of slack." > -- J.K. Rowling (RAH) > > And there it is. Emphasis mine. We all know she picks and chooses her words with great care, and she does not say he is a wonderful ACTOR, nor does she say he is a NICE man ("nice is different than good"), nor a TALENTED man, and she certainly makes no intimation that we should be watching him, as she does for Snape... Pippin: Erm, your version of the quote seems to have been edited a tiny bit. It goes like this: **** http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2003/060 3-AlbertHall-FryRowling.htm I was also playing with that when I created Professor Lupin who has a condition that is contagious of course and so people arevery frightened of him and I really like Professor Lupin, the character,because he's somebody who also has his failing he's such a great man and he's a wonderful teacher in fact I would say that Lupin is the one time I've written a teacher I loved really liked to have had because ProfessorMcGonnagol is a very good teacher but she can be quite scary at times, very strict. So Lupin's a wonderful teacher and a very nice man but he has a failing and his failing is that he does like to be liked and that's where he slips up because he has been disliked so often that he's always so pleased to have friends so he cuts them and awful lot of slack. ** I'm afraid she did say he was a nice man. Sorry. The lovable wolfy, driven by his need to please others, displaying saintly forbearance toward his oppressors, slipping up only in harmless or comical ways, is all too similar to the "Uncle Tom" (not to mention "Uncle Remus") stereotype. I'm afraid that JKR may have a nasty surprise in store for those who find it appealing. http://faculty.uwb.edu/mgoldberg/courses/definitions/stereotype. htm Pippin From cubs9911 at aol.com Tue May 18 16:12:36 2004 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:12:36 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > Jim Ferer, who still believes everybody - repeat, everybody - would > I think she > teases Ron because she does not realize how much he cares for her. Hermione > is playing hard to get and will get Harry in the end. He is the one she is > always kissing and look how upset she is when he yells at her. She loves > him, but they are both (H/H) too worried about more important things to deal > with it now. Look in PoA when the whomping willow strikes - Hermione is > grabbing onto Harry and she always looks for reasons to hug or kiss him on > the cheek. Being 24 it was not that long ago I was in her shoes, and when a > girl likes a boy that is a friend she will do things like that in a > "friendly" manner just to get away with it unnoticed! > > Gina - the Harry Potter romantic theorist :-) > Hemione is always kissing Harry? I don't think so. She has kissed him on the cheek once and that was at the end of GOF when they were leaving for the summer. And she kissed Ron on the cheek before his Quidditch match in OOTP. Needless to say, I am a R/Hr shipper. I think they will end up together. But I don't think that clouds my judgement here. Have any other H/Hr shippers seen Hermione kiss Harry more than once or try to find excuses to grab onto him or kiss him. If you have, I would love to know about them. JR From squeakinby at tds.net Tue May 18 17:16:57 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:16:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Very random thoughts on Gringott's Bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40AA4509.4040909@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98724 Steve wrote: > > You know the Goblin's motto, "Anything for a buck". (I made that up.) > > Well, it's all pure speculation with hardly a shred of evidence to > back it up, but that's how I see it. Thank you for the very satisfying answers to goblin financial practices! Jem From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 18 17:19:06 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 17:19:06 -0000 Subject: What if it's not his powers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: Ali: > I agree with you that Harry probably won't be sacrificing his powers. However, I very much disagree that he will end up sacrificing someone important to him. For one, it's a difficult way to end a story, making both the reader & characters uncomfortable with someone they've watch grow. At its heart, HP still attempts at being a children's series, and I can't see JKR, someone who vehemently wants us to dislike Voldemort, ending her series with her beloved character having to make such a monumental decision. Good still does good in the world of Harry Potter, and good does not sacrifice people other than the self. Geoff: There is possibly a different take on this. I remember a story once where the hero was faced with a situation in which two of his colleagues were threatened and he could only save one of them. Supposing that were to happen. Harry would not be making an apparently cold decision to "write off" one of his friends but would have to make the agonising decision of whom to save. Of course, it could also arise at such speed that he acts instinctively without having time to weigh the consequences of his choice. Just my idea.... From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue May 18 17:46:03 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 17:46:03 -0000 Subject: Ron's future/ Was Clues for SHIPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98726 > JR: I disagree here. I think Ron has a lot of aspiration. He is > still young and I think we have yet to see him at his best. When > Harry looked into the mirror of Erised he saw family. So the thing > that Harry desire's for his life is to have a family. When Ron > looked he saw himself being head boy and winning the house cup and > the quidditch cup. I think Ron wants to set himself apart from the > rest of the Weasleys and I think now that his brothers are gone he > will really shine. If anything, I think Harry will be the one that > will want to settle down after the war is over. He has never liked > the fame, and I think he will be happy to live quietly with his > family and friends. Antosha: Hmmm.... Makes me think. The Mirror of Erised does seem to be gaining more weight as a divining tool as the series continues, isn't it? Harry's wish has continued to be to surround himself with a loving family--therefore his relationship with the Weasleys, his relationship with with Sirius and his perfectly understandable devastation at Sirius's death. We might posit that, at fifteen-plus, he might have a significant other in the picture too.... Ron's wishes? Probably have remained the same too--romantic desires notwithstanding. The really interesting thing is--as has been pointed out in these threads--he seems to be achieving those desires one by one. He's won the House Cup (PS/SS), Quidditch Cup (OotP), and has become a prefect, which makes him a likely candidate for Head Boy. I think he's much better suited to be Quidditch captain than Harry--they being the oldest remaining members of the Gryffindor team in book six. Yup. He does look good. Does this set him apart from the rest of the Weasleys, though? Bill and Percy were each Head Boy. Charlie was a Quidditch star and won the cup (PS/SS)--since we're told that Gryffindor haven't won the cup since Charlie Weasley's day, it isn't unreasonable to assume he was captain as well. What I do think is interesting is your point that Ron's desires are more likely to be realized by the end of year seven, unlike Harry or Hermione's (whose ambitions, while unrevealed, seem to be on a somewhat larger scale), and that, therefore, he may be the one who is likely to buy the proverbial farm.... Antosha, who hopes none of the Trio snuff it, but who can see that it might happen From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue May 18 17:52:19 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 17:52:19 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98727 > wrote: > > Jim Ferer, who still believes everybody - repeat, everybody - would > > I think she > > teases Ron because she does not realize how much he cares for her. > Hermione > > is playing hard to get and will get Harry in the end. He is the one > she is > > always kissing and look how upset she is when he yells at her. She > loves > > him, but they are both (H/H) too worried about more important > things to deal > > with it now. Look in PoA when the whomping willow strikes - > Hermione is > > grabbing onto Harry and she always looks for reasons to hug or kiss > him on > > the cheek. Being 24 it was not that long ago I was in her shoes, > and when a > > girl likes a boy that is a friend she will do things like that in a > > "friendly" manner just to get away with it unnoticed! > > > > Gina - the Harry Potter romantic theorist :-) > > > > Hemione is always kissing Harry? I don't think so. She has kissed > him on the cheek once and that was at the end of GOF when they were > leaving for the summer. And she kissed Ron on the cheek before his > Quidditch match in OOTP. Needless to say, I am a R/Hr shipper. I > think they will end up together. But I don't think that clouds my > judgement here. Have any other H/Hr shippers seen Hermione kiss > Harry more than once or try to find excuses to grab onto him or kiss > him. If you have, I would love to know about them. > > JR Well, there's film contamination, but that works both ways: at the end of the CoS film, we get the H/Hr hug followed by the awkward Hr/R handshake--which I always interpreted as the twelve-year-old equivalent of sexual tension rather than lack of interest. But you could interpret that shot either way: H/Hr or R/Hr. Then there's the very intriguing holding-hands-dropping-hands bit in that we can glimpse in the PoA trailer. That seems to imply R/Hr. I realize this is film stuff, but if JKR is watching at all and isn't interested in R/Hr, you'd think she'd have said, "Oi, what are they supposed to be doing!" Antosha, who swears he doesn't care who ends up with whom, as long as the teens continue to act like teens From TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com Tue May 18 15:18:59 2004 From: TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com (TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:18:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: <4B50FA01.0641358E.FD754928@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98728 Gina wrote: "He met Hermione on the train! I think Luna likes Ron, but I think Ron will end up with someone that we do not expect or maybe even know yet. Besides, as sad as I am to say it, if any of the Golden Trio die it will IMO be Ron :-( " I think, perhaps, that the relationship being started by a meeting on the King's Cross platform may be played out as Ron and Harry. I'm not saying they're starting a romance, but rather a deep friendship based on their meeting on the train. I think Luna may like Ron, but he obviously does not like Luna. He thinks she's weird. I also think Hermione's jealous of Luna's liking of Ron. She always says nasty little things about her, when normally Hermione is quite nice. Trixie From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue May 18 18:05:18 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:05:18 -0000 Subject: Ginevra Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98729 So I've been looking through baby name books (pathetic, I know) regarding Ginny's full name: Ginevra Molly Weasley. "Ginevra" has a couple of roots (so to speak). One is a (possible) connection to the ginger plant ('gingiver' being the name in late Latin). Of course, 'ginger' is a common nickname for a redhead. The other is that it is a Celtic name related to "Guinevere." Both mean "foam white." Now the implications are interesting. First of all, Guinevere is the beloved of both King Arthur and of Lancelot. Hmmm.... All kinds of implications there, running from the romantic to the Freudian. Secondly--and this is a bit of a stretch, but grant that JKR is interested in both Celtic and Classical Greek myth--'white foam' is, mythologically speaking, connected with the birth of Aphrodite/Venus. When Chronos/Saturn was killed by Zeus/Jupiter and his other children, they threw his severed testicles (ewww!) into the ocean, raising a (wait for it) white foam. Out of this was the Goddess of Love born. THat's what Botticelli is depicting in his famous painting of Venus-in-a-garlic-butter-sauce. So we have connections between Ginny and two of the great traditional symbols of the female romantic ideal.... Oh, and also a very spicy-hot, yummy tuber. From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Tue May 18 17:08:45 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 17:08:45 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: <40AA3AD1.80604@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98730 > Miller, Gina (JIS) wrote: > > >Gina - who hates to think of anything sexual with 14-15 year olds :-) Jem: > But JKR made the point many times that hormones would begin to take over > and there's no reason to think that the Harry/Cho aberration was the > only instance of hormones at work. Remember by book 7 they will be seventeen and it seems likely that JKR will deal this aspect of growing up. "mcmaxslb" From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue May 18 18:10:05 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:10:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sevvy and Mudblood Lil (can't remember the original title, sorry...) References: <1084849013.18289.93449.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003901c43d03$f9fcb160$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 98731 JCS wrote: >I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thought of this, but perhaps >Snape had a crush on Lily. We know James and Severus hated each other There is a very longstanding theory (started long before I joined the list) about Snape and Lily but my own version is very close to yours - he had a crush on her but it wasn't reciprocated. >while they were in school. We also know SS became an acolyte of LV, >but what we don't know is why he left LV in the first place. Could >it be that maybe he couldn't stomach the idea of killing wizards who >weren't purebloods, as in, Lily's not a pureblood! And IIRC, didn't >that whole episode that HP saw in the penseive happen right in front >of Lily?! How humiliating! That would certainly help explain why he >didn't want her sticking up for him! Just to introduce another possibility: I wonder if, when Sevvy finally got away from the Marauders' clutches and limped back to the dungeon to lick his wounds and plot, he fell to thinking about Lily. We seem to get the impression that the young Snape wasn't too much of a ladies' man, the image of the "broomstick girl", apparently laughing at him being one example. In his circle of associates there's only one girl, Bella, who I suspect treated _everyone_ like something she'd scraped off her shoe. And then along comes Mudblood Lil (his phrase, not mine) and stands up for him in front of his enemies. Raging teenage hormones being what they are, he ends up developing a huge crush on her. >Why would a highly intelligent man whose worst childhood enemy is more than a >decade dead, feel it necessary to mistreat that enemy's son? Maybe because >he sees Lily's eyes looking back at him from James' face every day in class, >reminding him inescapably of the green-eyed children he will never have. Why >did he turn from Voldemort? Maybe because Voldemort threatened Lily--if not her >life, then all the things that she held dear. Why go to Dumbledore, instead >of just Apparating to the furthest possible locale and disappearing? Maybe >because Dumbledore was the most likely person to find a way to protect Lily. >Why did Voldemort tell Lily to stand aside first, instead of killing her out of >hand? Maybe because a favored servant requested it of him. > >For me, it also puts a slightly different spin on the whole Pensieve scene >and the question "Been enjoying yourself, Potter?" Because of course his message to Dumbledore _failed_ and Lily ended up dead and Harry ended up alive. And Snape's been incubating that for 10 years. "Why are you alive, Potter, when your mother's dead?" Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue May 18 18:10:05 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:10:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sevvy and Mudblood Lil (can't remember the original title, sorry...) References: <1084849013.18289.93449.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002a01c43d03$6fee4920$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 98732 JCS wrote: >I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thought of this, but perhaps >Snape had a crush on Lily. We know James and Severus hated each other There is a very longstanding theory (started long before I joined the list) about Snape and Lily but my own version is very close to yours - he had a crush on her but it wasn't reciprocated. >while they were in school. We also know SS became an acolyte of LV, >but what we don't know is why he left LV in the first place. Could >it be that maybe he couldn't stomach the idea of killing wizards who >weren't purebloods, as in, Lily's not a pureblood! And IIRC, didn't >that whole episode that HP saw in the penseive happen right in front >of Lily?! How humiliating! That would certainly help explain why he >didn't want her sticking up for him! Just to introduce another possibility: I wonder if, when Sevvy finally got away from the Marauders' clutches and limped back to the dungeon to lick his wounds and plot, he fell to thinking about Lily. We seem to get the impression that the young Snape wasn't too much of a ladies' man, the image of the "broomstick girl", apparently laughing at him being one example. In his circle of associates there's only one girl, Bella, who I suspect treated _everyone_ like something she'd scraped off her shoe. And then along comes Mudblood Lil (his phrase, not mine) and stands up for him in front of his enemies. Raging teenage hormones being what they are, he ends up developing a huge crush on her. >Why would a highly intelligent man whose worst childhood enemy is more than a >decade dead, feel it necessary to mistreat that enemy's son? Maybe because >he sees Lily's eyes looking back at him from James' face every day in class, >reminding him inescapably of the green-eyed children he will never have. Why >did he turn from Voldemort? Maybe because Voldemort threatened Lily--if not her >life, then all the things that she held dear. Why go to Dumbledore, instead >of just Apparating to the furthest possible locale and disappearing? Maybe >because Dumbledore was the most likely person to find a way to protect Lily. >Why did Voldemort tell Lily to stand aside first, instead of killing her out of >hand? Maybe because a favored servant requested it of him. > >For me, it also puts a slightly different spin on the whole Pensieve scene >and the question "Been enjoying yourself, Potter?" Because of course his message to Dumbledore _failed_ and Lily ended up dead and Harry ended up alive. And Snape's been incubating that for 10 years. "Why are you alive, Potter, when your mother's dead?" Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue May 18 18:15:45 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:15:45 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98733 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcmaxslb" wrote: > > Miller, Gina (JIS) wrote: > > > > >Gina - who hates to think of anything sexual with 14-15 year olds :-) > > Jem: > > But JKR made the point many times that hormones would begin to take over > > and there's no reason to think that the Harry/Cho aberration was the > > only instance of hormones at work. > > > > Remember by book 7 they will be seventeen and it seems likely that JKR will deal this aspect of growing up. > > "mcmaxslb" Absolutely. And as someone who has worked around teens from 13 on up, while the idea that they are awash in hormones may make us adults sqee-ish, it is what it is. There have been studies--beginning around the US drinking age, we start to forget/deny the urges that buffeted us in are teens. I'm not sure why this is, but it's fairly universal. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 18 18:38:49 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:38:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98734 Gina wrote: "He met Hermione on the train! I think Luna likes Ron, but I think Ron will end up with someone that we do not expect or maybe even know yet. Besides, as sad as I am to say it, if any of the Golden Trio die it will IMO be Ron :-( " I think, perhaps, that the relationship being started by a meeting on the King's Cross platform may be played out as Ron and Harry. I'm not saying they're starting a romance, but rather a deep friendship based on their meeting on the train. I think Luna may like Ron, but he obviously does not like Luna. He thinks she's weird. I also think Hermione's jealous of Luna's liking of Ron. She always says nasty little things about her, when normally Hermione is quite nice. Trixie Gina: I do not disagree, but Ron was awful to Hermione when he met her too. He called her a "mental" and a "know-it-all" as well. Well, everyone has called her that, but still. I think Hermione/Luna is another Minerva/Sybill love/hate relationship. Hermione may end up with Ron but I hardly think that is why she dislikes Luna. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 18 18:41:29 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:41:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sevvy and Mudblood Lil (can't remember the or iginal title, sorry...) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98735 * JCS wrote: >I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thought of this, but perhaps >Snape had a crush on Lily. We know James and Severus hated each other Gina: * I have always wondered if something like this was the case. Didn't the book say something about Lily being shocked or surprised when Snape called her a mudblood? I do not think she expected it because he had never attacked her before. You always hear Snape talk about James but to my knowledge he has never said anything derogatory about Lily. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 18 18:55:03 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:55:03 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Geoff: > > > "'You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for > > > ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin > > > himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, > > > common, Muggle who abandoned me even before I was born, just > > > because he found out his /wife/ was a witch? (my emphasis)'" > > > > > > Tom Riddle to Harry (COS UK edition p.231)" > > Wanda: > > I stand corrected. Well, in that case, it was illogical writing on > > Rowling's part. A wife has power, a mistress has none. > > And there's no reason for the state to take care of an "orphan" if > > he has a legal father or other relatives to do so, so Tom could not > > have ended up in an orphanage the way she describes. > > > > > SSSusan: > I disagree. There are ways that a child can end up in the care of > the state even if he/she has a biological parent still alive. Tom > Sr. might have refused to care for the child, he might have abused > him, or might even have claimed that the child wasn't his--that Tom's > mother had had an affair. (Who would be there to deny it? Do they > do blood tests in the WW?) Tom Jr. might well have been put into the > only place where he could receive care: an orphanage. Geoff: The quote I gave above was one I wrote last October as part of message 83700. Might I suggest that folks following today's thread go back to message 83683 (the one preceding the one I quoted) - thread title "Re: No sex please, we're British" which was the point in the thread where Tom Riddle's mother entered the debate and follow it through into a thread "Tommy Riddle's birth". There's a lot of discussion there on this matter - rather too much to start cutting and pasting but probably of interest to those involved here. From squeakinby at tds.net Tue May 18 19:57:11 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:57:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40AA6A97.80503@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98737 antoshachekhonte wrote: > >>Remember by book 7 they will be seventeen and it seems likely that JKR will deal this > > aspect of growing up. I think Gilderoy Lockhart wrote a book about this. "Please Your Partner--Magical Wand Uses You Never Dreamt Of!" Wasn't it on the Daily Prophet bestseller list for 29 weeks? Jem From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 18 19:05:28 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:05:28 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" wrote:JR: > Hemione is always kissing Harry? I don't think so. She has kissed > him on the cheek once and that was at the end of GOF when they were > leaving for the summer. And she kissed Ron on the cheek before his > Quidditch match in OOTP. Needless to say, I am a R/Hr shipper. I > think they will end up together. But I don't think that clouds my > judgement here. Have any other H/Hr shippers seen Hermione kiss > Harry more than once or try to find excuses to grab onto him or kiss > him. If you have, I would love to know about them. Geoff: 'Hermione's lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him. "Hermione!" "Harry - you're a great wizard you know"' (PS "Through the Trapdoor" p.208 UK edition) From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Tue May 18 18:40:28 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:40:28 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: <4B50FA01.0641358E.FD754928@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98739 Trixie wrote: > I think Luna may like Ron, but he obviously does not like Luna. > He thinks she's weird. I also think Hermione's jealous of Luna's > liking of Ron. She always says nasty little things about her, when > normally Hermione is quite nice. Hermione acts jealous about Cho as well. So that's a draw. From cubs9911 at aol.com Tue May 18 19:39:43 2004 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:39:43 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" > wrote:JR: > > Hemione is always kissing Harry? I don't think so. She has kissed > > him on the cheek once and that was at the end of GOF when they were > > leaving for the summer. And she kissed Ron on the cheek before his > > Quidditch match in OOTP. Needless to say, I am a R/Hr shipper. I > > think they will end up together. But I don't think that clouds my > > judgement here. Have any other H/Hr shippers seen Hermione kiss > > Harry more than once or try to find excuses to grab onto him or > kiss > > him. If you have, I would love to know about them. > > Geoff: > > 'Hermione's lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw > her arms around him. > "Hermione!" > "Harry - you're a great wizard you know"' > > (PS "Through the Trapdoor" p.208 UK edition) This is not a scene where Hermione was trying to find an excuse to hug or kiss Harry. This is a scene when they are 11 years old and Hermione is simply showing emotion towards her friend in a critical situation. I don't think that anyone would think of this as a shipping scene. JR From TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com Tue May 18 18:52:09 2004 From: TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com (TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:52:09 -0400 Subject: Ginevra Message-ID: <13311EE0.61654281.FD754928@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98741 Antosha wrote: "Ginevra" has a couple of roots (so to speak). One is a (possible) connection to the ginger plant ('gingiver' being the name in late Latin). Of course, 'ginger' is a common nickname for a redhead. The other is that it is a Celtic name related to "Guinevere." Both mean "foam white." Now the implications are interesting. First of all, Guinevere is the beloved of both King Arthur and of Lancelot. Hmmm.... All kinds of implications there, running from the romantic to the Freudian. Secondly--and this is a bit of a stretch, but grant that JKR is interested in both Celtic and Classical Greek myth--'white foam' is, mythologically speaking, connected with the birth of Aphrodite/Venus. When Chronos/Saturn was killed by Zeus/Jupiter and his other children, they threw his severed testicles (ewww!) into the ocean, raising a (wait for it) white foam. Out of this was the Goddess of Love born. THat's what Botticelli is depicting in his famous painting of Venus-in-a-garlic-butter-sauce. So we have connections between Ginny and two of the great traditional symbols of the female romantic ideal.... " I agree. Ginny is being set up as the ideal female lead for Harry. She's not as bookish as Hermione, but she's smart. She is clearly as fun as Fred and George. Sooner or later, Hermione and Ron will hook up. Then Harry will feel left out and he could hang with Ginny and Neville. Trixie From cubs9911 at aol.com Tue May 18 19:43:24 2004 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:43:24 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcmaxslb" wrote: > Trixie wrote: > > I think Luna may like Ron, but he obviously does not like Luna. > > He thinks she's weird. I also think Hermione's jealous of Luna's > > liking of Ron. She always says nasty little things about her, when > > normally Hermione is quite nice. > > > Hermione acts jealous about Cho as well. So that's a draw. I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you list some specific instances where Hermione acts jealous about Cho because I don't remember her acting that way. I do remember Hermione helping Harry is his relationship with Cho and not being jealous at all. JR From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 18 19:47:16 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:47:16 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98743 Tom's mother does sound more like an abandoned mistress than an abandoned wife. I know Tom refers to her as a wife, but might that not be wishful thinking on his part. Bad enough to be the son of a hated muggle without being a bastard as well. Sylvia From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 18 20:22:35 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:22:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98744 > > 'Hermione's lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw > her arms around him. > "Hermione!" > "Harry - you're a great wizard you know"' > > (PS "Through the Trapdoor" p.208 UK edition) This is not a scene where Hermione was trying to find an excuse to hug or kiss Harry. This is a scene when they are 11 years old and Hermione is simply showing emotion towards her friend in a critical situation. I don't think that anyone would think of this as a shipping scene. JR Gina: I do. How many times has she ever done that to Ron compared to the times she has done so with Harry? ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Tue May 18 20:23:43 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 20:23:43 -0000 Subject: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > Do we know what happened to Nott > > after he was left behind by Malfoy during the battle? Were > > his "injuries" caused by Hermione's "stupefy"? and would that have > > put him out of commission for the rest of the battle? > > AmanitaMuscaria here : "'Colloportus!' gasped Hermione and the door sealed itself with an odd squelching noise." then, a couple of lines later, "... Lucius Malfoy roar(ed) 'Leave Nott, leave him, I say - his injuries will be nothing to the Dark Lord compared to losing that prophecy. ...'" So Nott was squished in the door - could cause some nasty injuries. > More importantly, who will take care of Theo now that his elderly, > injured father is in Azkaban? > > Potioncat AmanitaMuscatia again : Good thought, as Theo's father is said to be a widower, and we see that families who were targeted, possibly on both sides, having more than one member wiped out. Perhaps Theo will be spending Christmas at Hogwarts? I could see where many families would want their children home more if the war hots up - might leave Harry and Theo pretty much on their own over the break? On that same line of thought, we don't know who looks after Susan Bones either, do we? Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 20:29:17 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040518202917.40580.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98746 > > 'Hermione's lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw > her arms around him. > "Hermione!" > "Harry - you're a great wizard you know"' > > (PS "Through the Trapdoor" p.208 UK edition) This is not a scene where Hermione was trying to find an excuse to hug or kiss Harry. This is a scene when they are 11 years old and Hermione is simply showing emotion towards her friend in a critical situation. I don't think that anyone would think of this as a shipping scene. JR Gina: I do. How many times has she ever done that to Ron compared to the times she has done so with Harry? animallover_11: Hermione had a very similar feeling when she wanted to rush over to Ron when he was attacked by the Queen. I have always thought of this scene much like a "goodbye". She knew that Harry was off to face a big evil and may not make it back. I have never looked at this as a possilbe sign for either H/H or H/R. Just the worried girl hoping and wishing her friends are ok. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue May 18 20:27:31 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:27:31 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001c01c43d16$8c4d5670$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 98747 Gina: I do. How many times has she ever done that to Ron compared to the times she has done so with Harry? Sherry now: Actually--and i've tried to stay out of the relationship discussion--when I am very interested in a man, I am extra careful not to touch him or show it in any way, in that sense, until I know if the feeling is mutual. I am far more likely to hug or kiss a man on the cheek, spontaneously, if he is only my friend. Sherry G From peckham at cyberramp.net Tue May 18 20:29:43 2004 From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 20:29:43 -0000 Subject: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I'm sure I saw a post once that attempted to sort out who went where > during the DoM battle. Can anyone direct me to a post, or help > answer this question in general. Do we know what happened to Nott > after he was left behind by Malfoy during the battle? Were > his "injuries" caused by Hermione's "stupefy"? and would that have > put him out of commission for the rest of the battle? The key to the injuries in not so much that Nott Sr. was stunned, but that he leaped to grab Harry at the same time several towering shelves were falling down due to the Reductor Curses that had just hit them. Being stunned while a large number of heavy shelves and glass balls raining down on top of you is bound to produce a couple of cuts and bruises. As for what happened to the elder Nott after being injured, I am sure the aurors would have found him bleeding where his fellow Death Eaters had left him after the battle. Allen From cubs9911 at aol.com Tue May 18 20:36:09 2004 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 20:36:09 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98749 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > > > > 'Hermione's lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry > and threw > > her arms around him. > > "Hermione!" > > "Harry - you're a great wizard you know"' > > > > (PS "Through the Trapdoor" p.208 UK edition) > > > This is not a scene where Hermione was trying to find an > excuse to hug or kiss Harry. This is a scene when they are > 11 years old and Hermione is simply showing emotion towards > her friend in a critical situation. I don't think that > anyone would think of this as a shipping scene. > > JR > > Gina: > > I do. How many times has she ever done that to Ron compared to the times she > has done so with Harry? Gina, If you think that a hug between two 11 year old friends in a potentially life threating situation is a shipping scene then i'm not going to argue with you. But I would still like to know where these other scenes are in which Hermione kisses Harry? JR From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 18 20:42:03 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:42:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98750 * > 'Hermione's lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry > and threw > > her arms around him. > > "Hermione!" > > "Harry - you're a great wizard you know"' > > > > (PS "Through the Trapdoor" p.208 UK edition) > > > This is not a scene where Hermione was trying to find an > excuse to hug or kiss Harry. This is a scene when they are > 11 years old and Hermione is simply showing emotion towards > her friend in a critical situation. I don't think that > anyone would think of this as a shipping scene. > > JR > > Gina: > > I do. How many times has she ever done that to Ron compared to the times she > has done so with Harry? Gina, If you think that a hug between two 11 year old friends in a potentially life threating situation is a shipping scene then i'm not going to argue with you. But I would still like to know where these other scenes are in which Hermione kisses Harry? JR Gina: * Most people experience their first crush before age 11. I do not remember the exact places but there were several scenes that caught my attention where Hermione hugged Harry or kissed him on the cheek or something along those same lines when she did not necessarily have to. I do not really even think they will end up together, but there are feeling there at least on her side. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 18 20:51:02 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 20:51:02 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98751 I don't think Hermione is jealous of either Luna or Cho but she is used to being THE girl in the group. I remember, at Hermione's age or perhaps a little older, being slightly put-out when a close friend fell for a girl outside our group, even though I had no romantic feelings about him whatsoever. I suspect she has no real interest in Cho, but Luna certainly gets on her nerves, mainly due, I think, to a clash of personalities. Kneasy once compared Luna to Madeline Bassett in P.G. Wodehouse's mighty works. I would compare Hermione to another of Bertie Wooster's fiancees, Florence Craye. Can't see those ladies getting on too well either, should they ever meet. I'm still sorry that Hermione so rudely interupted Luna when she was going to say what she thought was behind the locked door. I have a feeling it might have been important. Sylvia (sorry for going a bit OT in my adoration of Wodehouse. It won't happen again). From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue May 18 20:56:58 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 20:56:58 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98752 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > "Geoff: > > > > Perhaps I should point out that your argument is not upheld by > > evidence in canon: > > > > "'You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for > > ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin > > himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, > > common, Muggle who abandoned me even before I was born, just > > because he found out his /wife/ was a witch? (my emphasis)'" > > > > Tom Riddle to Harry (COS UK edition p.231)" > Wanda: > > I stand corrected. Well, in that case, it was illogical writing on > Rowling's part. If a woman from a small village had married the son > of the rich family who lived in the big house, it would have been > common knowledge to everyone in town. If they'd kept it secret, she > could have exposed him when he deserted her. A wife has power, a > mistress has none. And there's no reason for the state to take care > of an "orphan" if he has a legal father or other relatives to do so, > so Tom could not have ended up in an orphanage the way she > describes. > > Wanda bboy_mn: Keep in mind that this all occurred in roughly 1930 in a very small village presumably in England. A time when a men had much more power, and could easily take the common male attitude that an unwanted pregnancy is 'the woman's problem'. Today we have laws that force every father to assume responsibility for any offspring they create regardless of the circumstance. In that era, I have no trouble seeing Tom Sr take the attitude that he didn't want anything to do with this child. If he ordered the child sent to an orphanage, then I have every reason to believe that's exactly where the child would go. Also, it's not that uncommon in a country like England where the first born son has the priority position in inheritance of a families estate. I suspect that an illegitimate first born son would be able to challenge the distribution of an estate and actually prevail over a younger son from the widow of the deceased. I seem to recall many movies and novels based on the very theme. I seem to remember challenges to the ruling throne of various European countries based on that theme (at least in movie and novels). True, you are correct, a wife takes precedence over a mistress, but a first born son is a first born son. In closing, I still stand by my claim that Tom Jr's mother gave him a name that tied him to his heritage. Being estrange from her husband/lover, Tom Jr's mother would have wanted to make sure young Tom did not lose his connection to his father no matter to what extent the father tried to deny it. Just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 18 21:02:06 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:02:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sharing names - Heritage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98753 > Wanda: > > I stand corrected. Well, in that case, it was illogical writing on > Rowling's part. If a woman from a small village had married the son > of the rich family who lived in the big house, it would have been > common knowledge to everyone in town. If they'd kept it secret, she > could have exposed him when he deserted her. A wife has power, a > mistress has none. And there's no reason for the state to take care > of an "orphan" if he has a legal father or other relatives to do so, > so Tom could not have ended up in an orphanage the way she > describes. > > Wanda Gina: I might add that in those days (ever seen or read Nicholas Nickelby?) that if a father did not want a son he could pay to have him sent away - school, orphanage, etc. and more often than not it was a horrible place they landed. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 18 21:15:38 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:15:38 -0000 Subject: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98754 > > AmanitaMuscaria here : > > "'Colloportus!' gasped Hermione and the door sealed itself with an > odd squelching noise." then, a couple of lines later, "... Lucius > Malfoy roar(ed) 'Leave Nott, leave him, I say - his injuries will be > nothing to the Dark Lord compared to losing that prophecy. ...'" > So Nott was squished in the door - could cause some nasty injuries. > snip two posts<< Good thought, as Theo's father is said to be > a widower, and we see that families who were targeted, possibly on > both sides, having more than one member wiped out. Perhaps Theo will > be spending Christmas at Hogwarts? I could see where many families > would want their children home more if the war hots up - might leave > Harry and Theo pretty much on their own over the break? > On that same line of thought, we don't know who looks after Susan > Bones either, do we? Potioncat: Ewww...missed the door part...just saw that in a movie too! I think Susan Bones' aunt or grandparents were the ones killed, not her parents. And she does have an aunt in the MoM. But you have a point, we don't see how the kids are taken care of...and we know Tom Riddle was simply sent back to the orphanage each summer. So Theo's situation will only surface if it impacts Harry....and you have another good point, that could be at Christmas! Potioncat who won't get silly and suggest that Theo and Harry will join the twins at Snape Cottage this summer..... From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 18 21:17:31 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:17:31 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98755 Gina wrote: I might add that in those days (ever seen or read Nicholas Nickleby?) that if a father did not want a son, he could pay to have him sent away - school, orphanage etc. and more often than not it was a horrible place they landed. Now me (Sylvia) But Dickens was writing in the 1830's, when it was easier to dispose of unwanted children. By the time Tom Riddle was born, I wouldn't have thought it was so easy to summarily dump an unwanted baby. It would, of course, have been possible to pack him off to a boarding school, but not, I think, to an orphanage. BTW, not all illegitimate children ended up like Smike. Harriet Smith, in "Emma" by JKR's favourite author, was certainly not wanted at home, but was very well provided for and quite happy. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue May 18 21:27:56 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:27:56 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98756 > Wanda: > > I stand corrected. Well, in that case, it was illogical writing on Rowling's part. A wife has power, a mistress has none. > > And there's no reason for the state to take care of an "orphan" if he has a legal father or other relatives to do so, so Tom could not have ended up in an orphanage the way she describes. > SSSusan: > I disagree. There are ways that a child can end up in the care of > the state even if he/she has a biological parent still alive. Tom > Sr. might have refused to care for the child, he might have abused > him, or might even have claimed that the child wasn't his--that Tom's mother had had an affair. (Who would be there to deny it? Do they do blood tests in the WW?) Tom Jr. might well have been put into the only place where he could receive care: an orphanage. Mandy here: Of course he would have gone into an orphage. If Miss Marvolio died, leaving the hospital to send to Mr. Riddle to pick up his child and he simply said 'It's not mine', the hospital would have no choice but to give the child to the 1940's equivalent of child protective services. If the social services could not convince Mr. Riddle to take the child, the baby would have gone into an orphanage. Social services would not have sued a man to take responsibility for a child he doesn't want. Keep in mind too that this was just after the war, and there were many lost, orphaned and unclaimed children who were sent out to the countryside for saftey and who's parents then died in air raids. This obviously didn't happen to Tom Riddle Jr., but the system would have been over loaded with orphaned children and stretched to the limits. Cheers Mandy From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 18 21:29:38 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:29:38 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" wrote: JR: > This is not a scene where Hermione was trying to find an > excuse to hug or kiss Harry. This is a scene when they are > 11 years old and Hermione is simply showing emotion towards > her friend in a critical situation. I don't think that > anyone would think of this as a shipping scene. Geoff: Weeelll... It was an excuse to grab hold of him which was one of your parameters...... From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue May 18 21:36:54 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:36:54 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98758 > Gina wrote: > I might add that in those days (ever seen or read Nicholas Nickleby?) that if a father did not want a son, he could pay to have him sent away - school, orphanage etc. and more often than not it was a horrible place they landed. > Sylvia wrote: > But Dickens was writing in the 1830's, when it was easier to dispose of unwanted children. By the time Tom Riddle was born, I wouldn't have thought it was so easy to summarily dump an unwanted baby. It would, of course, have been possible to pack him off to a boarding school, but not, I think, to an orphanage. Mandy here: But if you have enough money and power in a relatively small community you can do anything. It was still a huge stigma to have a child out of wedlock in the 1940s and 50s. If indeed Miss Marvolio was unwed and died in childbirth the child would have been wisked strait to an orphage, no questions asked. If she was wed, and he abandoned her it would have been easy for Tom Riddle Sr.'s family to have arranged for baby Tom to have been packed away. It might seem impossible to us now, but very easy 50 years ago. Mandy From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 18 21:41:39 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:41:39 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > > > > > Wanda: > > > > I stand corrected. Well, in that case, it was illogical writing on > > Rowling's part. If a woman from a small village had married the son > > of the rich family who lived in the big house, it would have been > > common knowledge to everyone in town. If they'd kept it secret, she > > could have exposed him when he deserted her. A wife has power, a > > mistress has none. And there's no reason for the state to take care > > of an "orphan" if he has a legal father or other relatives to do so, > > so Tom could not have ended up in an orphanage the way she > > describes. > > > > Wanda > > > Gina: > > I might add that in those days (ever seen or read Nicholas > Nickelby?) that if a father did not want a son he could pay to have him sent > away - school, orphanage, etc. and more often than not it was a horrible > place they landed. Geoff: I'm more inclined to agree with Steve (message 98752) in that Tom Snr might arrange for the child to go to an orphanage but it would be a lot more civilised than the situation you quote. I think we calculated in a previous thread that it would have been 1926/1927 when Tom Jnr was born whereas Smike in NN found himself in Dotheboys Hall in the mid-19th century and after Dickens blew the whistle on the Yorkshire schools and similar institutions, things were tightened up a lot. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue May 18 21:44:03 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:44:03 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98760 Sylvia (ladyramkin2000) wrote: > I don't think Hermione is jealous of either Luna or Cho but she is > used to being THE girl in the group. I remember, at Hermione's age > or perhaps a little older, being slightly put-out when a close friend > fell for a girl outside our group, even though I had no romantic > feelings about him whatsoever. Del comments : Absolutely. The more I read the books, the more I understand Hermione's inner workings, and the more it becomes obvious to me that all SHIPpers could be both right and wrong. Hermione is indeed something like Harry's soulmate, but neither of them seem to want to add romance to a relationship that suits them perfectly fine the way it is. There's simply no sign that they will ever be anything but good friends. I had an incredible male friend in senior high, but we never took it any further. Things were absolutely fine for us the way they were, why change them ? There's a definite sexual tension between Hermione and Ron. I think neither of them knows how to handle the fact that they are different-gendered good friends. But other than that, they seem to be growing more and more apart as time goes by. Or at least, they don't seem to be growing any closer. It looks like they are too different to ever get along. So it would seem like there's not enough sexual tension between Harry and Hermione, and too much between Ron and her. On the other hand, she could get along relatively fine with Harry, but not with Ron. That doesn't sound good either for the H/H nor for the R/H SHIPpers. And finally, I'd like to remind everyone that the girl *already has a boyfriend* ! Viktor Krum is in love with her, and we don't know that she doesn't reciprocate that feeling. We do know, however, that they write to each other, which is the closest to going out together that they can do under the current circumstances. And the final touch is that she doesn't seem to talk about Viktor to *anyone* : not the boys, but not Ginny either it would seem. Ginny knew Hermione was going to the Yule Ball with Viktor, but she never lets out any piece of information about Viktor or Hermione's relationship with him. Hermione is keeping that part of her life completely private. The best reason she would do that is that it means A LOT to her. Del, who would have thought Viktor was just a plot device in GoF if only Hermione wasn't still writing to him in OoP. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 18 21:51:17 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:51:17 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98761 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: Mandy: > Keep in mind too that this was just after the war, and there were > many lost, orphaned and unclaimed children who were sent out to the > countryside for saftey and who's parents then died in air raids. > This obviously didn't happen to Tom Riddle Jr., but the system would > have been over loaded with orphaned children and stretched to the > limits. Geoff: Mandy, You've got your time frame wrong. Tom was about 15-16 at the time of COS and that was 1942 (50 years prior to Harry's second year which was 1992/3). So he was born about 1926/7. He might have gone to the countryside in the Second World War as a teenager. We had a thread on Stockwell Orphanage and its evacuation from London. It was part of a thread on Vauxhall Road and the diary and began around message 86880. From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 22:02:32 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sharing names - Tom's story truth or fiction? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040518220232.12095.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98762 Mandy here: If indeed Miss Marvolio was unwed and died in childbirth the child would have been wisked strait to an orphage, no questions asked. If she was wed, and he abandoned her it would have been easy for Tom Riddle Sr.'s family to have arranged for baby Tom to have been packed away. It might seem impossible to us now, but very easy 50 years ago. Mandy animallover_11: I don't think that we can assume that she died during child birth because she named him...there is no way 50 years ago she would have known she was having a boy. Also I believe that in the quote it is stated that Sr. left before Jr was born. If that is the case this also proves that mom must have lived long enough to name the child. If Sr had anything to do with his being sent to the orphanage from birth I am sure he would have changed Jr names. He would not want anyone to find out about him. It is possible that Tom has the story wrong. It is possible that maybe his Mom left his dad (family pressure or something) and she told Tom Jr that dad left so he would not go looking for him. It is possible that the whole situation was set up by his mother....Ginny is the first Weasley girl in many generations.....what if Slytherins family had all gilrs and no boys for many generations...Tom's mom would have wanted to protect her son from a good fathers influence possibly. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 22:02:44 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040518220244.16723.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98763 --- mcmaxslb wrote: > Trixie wrote: > > I think Luna may like Ron, but he obviously does > not like Luna. > > He thinks she's weird. I also think Hermione's > jealous of Luna's > > liking of Ron. She always says nasty little > things about her, when > > normally Hermione is quite nice. > > > Hermione acts jealous about Cho as well. So that's a > draw. > How so? She defended Cho's wishy-washy, jealous behavior and encouraged Harry in the relationshp. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ From kreneeb at hotmail.com Tue May 18 22:11:20 2004 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 22:11:20 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98764 Geoff said: 'Hermione's lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him. "Hermione!" "Harry - you're a great wizard you know"'(PS "Through the Trapdoor" p.208 UK edition) JR said... This is not a scene where Hermione was trying to find an excuse to hug or kiss Harry. This is a scene when they are 11 years old and Hermione is simply showing emotion towards her friend in a critical situation. I don't think that anyone would think of this as a shipping scene. Gina asked: I do. How many times has she ever done that to Ron compared to the times she has done so with Harry? kitten says At least once that I remember off hand (so it's a tie).... "Hermione flung her Arms around Ron's neck and broke down completely."page 292 in the American paperback This is during the scene when Ron tells Hermione that she will not have to work on buckbeak's appeal alone anymore. I can safely bet all my money in my pocket against all the money in your pocket that you probably won't consider this a "shippy moment" so...round and round we go ;) it's what makes shipping so much fun! kitten From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue May 18 22:27:47 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 22:27:47 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98765 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionekitten9" wrote: > > Geoff said: > 'Hermione's lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw > her arms around him. "Hermione!" "Harry - you're a great wizard you > know"'(PS "Through the Trapdoor" p.208 UK edition) > > JR said... > This is not a scene where Hermione was trying to find an > excuse to hug or kiss Harry. This is a scene when they are > 11 years old and Hermione is simply showing emotion towards > her friend in a critical situation. I don't think that > anyone would think of this as a shipping scene. > > Gina asked: > I do. How many times has she ever done that to Ron compared to the > times she has done so with Harry? > > > kitten says > > At least once that I remember off hand (so it's a tie).... > > "Hermione flung her Arms around Ron's neck and broke down > completely."page 292 in the American paperback > > This is during the scene when Ron tells Hermione that she will not > have to work on buckbeak's appeal alone anymore. > > I can safely bet all my money in my pocket against all the money in > your pocket that you probably won't consider this a "shippy moment" > so...round and round we go ;) it's what makes shipping so much fun! > > kitten imamommy: Wait, there's more: "''Bye, Harry!' said Hermione, and she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek." (GoF p.734, US) and then: "'Good luck, Ron,' said Hermione, standing on tiptoe and kissing him on the cheek." (OoP p.404, US) Blimey, she seems confused. I wonder if JKR ever intended to cause so much distress over romance ;) imamommy From mica_perez at hotmail.com Tue May 18 20:56:20 2004 From: mica_perez at hotmail.com (Michelle Perez) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 20:56:20 -0000 Subject: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98766 AmanitaMuscaria: > On that same line of thought, we don't know who looks after Susan > Bones either, do we? Susan's Aunt and Uncle were killed in the previous war..not her parents. "Michelle" From LadySawall at aol.com Tue May 18 22:54:17 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (Jo Ann) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 22:54:17 -0000 Subject: Sevvy and 'Mudblood' Lil (can't remember the original title, sorry...) In-Reply-To: <002a01c43d03$6fee4920$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98767 Susan (originally) wrote: > >I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thought of this, but perhaps > >Snape had a crush on Lily. We know James and Severus hated each other Ffred: > There is a very longstanding theory (started long before I joined > the list) about Snape and Lily but my own version is very close to > yours - he had a crush on her but it wasn't reciprocated. > Just to introduce another possibility: I wonder if, when Sevvy > finally got away from the Marauders' clutches and limped back to > the dungeon to lick his wounds and plot, he fell to thinking about > Lily. > > We seem to get the impression that the young Snape wasn't too much > of a ladies' man, the image of the "broomstick girl", apparently > laughing at him being one example. In his circle of associates > there's only one girl, Bella, who I suspect treated _everyone_ like > something she'd scraped off her shoe. > > And then along comes Mudblood Lil (his phrase, not mine) and stands >up for him in front of his enemies. Raging teenage hormones being > what they are, he ends up developing a huge crush on her. Jo Ann: > >For me, it also puts a slightly different spin on the whole > Pensieve scene and the question "Been enjoying yourself, Potter?" Ffred: > Because of course his message to Dumbledore _failed_ and Lily ended > up dead and Harry ended up alive. And Snape's been incubating that > for 10 years. > > "Why are you alive, Potter, when your mother's dead?" Jo Ann again: Exactly. Imagine the dilemna for Snape--Harry, the one who should have died in Lily's place, who arguably (due to the Prophecy) was the cause of her death to begin with; yet at the same time, the most important thing in the world to her, and the only thing that's left of her. Walking around Hogwarts, wearing James Potter's face, breaking the rules, surrounded by fame and applause...but at the same time, defending the weak and befriending the outcasts, just as his mother did. Snape's therapy bill must be outrageous. Throw in the life-debt to James, and Harry's sometimes reckless behavior and overall importance to the future of the wizarding world; cross-reference it all with the thread concerning Snape's general hatred of the teaching profession; add the tightrope act he has to walk between Dumbledore and Voldemort, and it's a wonder that Severus hasn't long since taken a dive off the top of the Astronomy Tower. Backtracking a bit, I can also see Lily being an underlying cause of James' and Snapes' mutual hatred from fairly early on, as well as the reason they kept at it after (according to Sirius) James had gotten over his bullying tendencies for the most part. She might be quite oblivious to the whole thing--in fact I'm almost certain she would have been, or she probably wouldn't have gone on defending Snape, which might encourage him unduly. 'Because he exists' indeed--no young man in his right mind would tell the girl he's trying to woo, "Well, you see, Lily, it's just that Snivvy here fancies you, and since I fully intend to bed you sometime between now and graduation, I'm obliged to assert my authority as Alpha Male by kicking the living tar out of him at every opportunity." [Heck, for that matter, I could turn the whole thing on its head and postulate that Snape really *did* hate the "Mudblood", because she had defended him once, and James latched onto him after that as a quick way to get Lily's attention...or file that under the love/hate variant: "I don't need help from a Mudblood!" being Slytherin for "Oh gods, no, Lily, you're not helping! Please just shut up and let him get it out of his system!"] But getting back to the main topic, I'm reminded again of JKR's comment, "Why would anyone want Snape to love them?" or words to that effect. Which doesn't really speak one way or another to this theory, but what a sad thought! It doesn't preclude the possibility that Snape *is* capable of love; but she must envision him as a 'deeply horrible person' indeed, if there's not a soul alive who would welcome his affection, let alone return it. Jo Ann ...who tends to agree with whoever suggested that groups like this one (and for that matter fandom in general) add depths to the HP mythos that JKR could only dream of. From TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com Tue May 18 20:59:11 2004 From: TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com (TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:59:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: <33DB6787.13203B9C.FD754928@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98768 "Hermione acts jealous about Cho as well. So that's a draw." 1. This was attributed to me, I never said this. JR wrote: "I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you list some specific instances where Hermione acts jealous about Cho because I don't remember her acting that way. I do remember Hermione helping Harry is his relationship with Cho." I agree with JR on this. She's never been jealous of any girls Harry has liked. She was jealous of Fleur when she kissed Ron. Trixie From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 20:54:35 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 20:54:35 -0000 Subject: Not so ESE:Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98769 > Pippin: > Erm, your version of the quote seems to have been edited a tiny > bit. It goes like this: > **** > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2003/060 > 3-AlbertHall-FryRowling.htm > > I was also playing with that when I created Professor > Lupin who has a condition that is contagious of course and so > people are very frightened of him and I really like Professor Lupin, > the character, because he's somebody who also has his failing > he's such a great man and he's a wonderful teacher in fact I > would say that Lupin is the one time I've written a teacher I loved > really liked to have had because Professor McGonnagol is a very > good teacher but she can be quite scary at times, very > strict. So Lupin's a wonderful teacher and a very nice man but he > has a failing and his failing is that he does like to be liked and > that's where he slips up because he has been disliked so often > that he's always so pleased to have friends so he cuts them and > awful lot of slack. > ** > > I'm afraid she did say he was a nice man. Sorry. > > The lovable wolfy, driven by his need to please others, > displaying saintly forbearance toward his oppressors, slipping > up only in harmless or comical ways, is all too similar to the > "Uncle Tom" (not to mention "Uncle Remus") stereotype. I'm > afraid that JKR may have a nasty surprise in store for those who > find it appealing. > > http://faculty.uwb.edu/mgoldberg/courses/definitions/stereotype.htm Justine: Well, gee. I concede that. The Lexicon should really put some sort of disclaimer on that quote, then. BUT! In the real quote, she, besides saying he is a NICE man, says he is a GREAT man. "SUCH a great man," actually. Now, "great" is most definitely a synonym for "wonderful." I realize "great" could also mean "powerful," and we've seen that Remus is a competent wizard and a fantastic teacher, but there's been no hint, as far as I can remember, that he is a very powerful wizard. It doesn't say "great wizard" anyway. It says "great man." I guess that brings up a new question: is Remus Lupin a powerful man? As a werewolf, he isn't in the wizarding world. In connection to Voldemort, he'd merely be a pawn. In the Order, he headed the Advance Guard. So he's powerful in some aspects of the Order, but so is Arthur, so is Shacklebot, so is Moody. Each member of the Order is important to the Order. I've concluded that--especially in the context of a quote talking about his wonderful teaching, how she'd love him as a teacher, and which mentions only one flaw--her use of the word "great" simply means that: "great," a synonym of "wonderful." To end this, I'd like to quote my best friend and fellow Potterhead: "i think the 'great man' is definitely strong...we know jkr doesn't choose her words loosely and even going with less factual reasoning: she seems very candid in this quote, she has a very distinctive 'coy voice' and it doesn't seem like she's doing a 'you just wait' thing here" Justine I really do admire your theory, Pippin, and will applaud you should it be correct. I just don't buy it, though. It's just that it involves SO much speculation... and I'm rather enamored of Remus. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 21:16:01 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginevra In-Reply-To: <13311EE0.61654281.FD754928@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040518211601.58132.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98770 TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com wrote: I agree. Ginny is being set up as the ideal female lead for Harry. She's not as bookish as Hermione, but she's smart. She is clearly as fun as Fred and George. Sooner or later, Hermione and Ron will hook up. Then Harry will feel left out and he could hang with Ginny and Neville. Keep in mind that HP is already feeling left out to some degree. Ron and Hermione are both prefects. As such, they are required to spend time together away from HP (train, etc). Also, Hermione spent all of the summer between GoF and OotP with the Weasleys at #12. "moonmyyst" From cottell at dublin.ie Tue May 18 23:09:55 2004 From: cottell at dublin.ie (muscatel1988) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 23:09:55 -0000 Subject: Weddings in the WW (Was: Sharing names - Heritage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98771 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote:> I quote below a part of my message 83700 which was part of a > thread "No sex please, we're British." > > "Geoff: > > Perhaps I should point out that your argument is not upheld by > evidence in canon: > > "'You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for > ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, > through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, common, Muggle > who abandoned me even before I was born, just because he found out > his /wife/ was a witch? (my emphasis)'" > > Tom Riddle to Harry (COS UK edition p.231)" After reading all the interesting posts that flowed from this one, it occurs to me that we don't know anything at all about how wizards and witches get married, other than that they do. There must be, by assumption, some sort of ceremony, which would, in the WW, be legally binding. But the point is that the Muggle authorities would have no record of such a union, so that if a Muggle and a witch/wizard were to be married only by the WW ceremony, a child born to them would, for Muggle legal purposes, be illegitimate. Warning: what follows is pure speculation! We only have Tom/Voldemort's word for what went on between his parents, and even if he were completely trustworthy, the events he describes happened when he was a baby, or perhaps before. He says that Riddle Snr left his mother "just because he found out his wife was a witch" - what we don't know is how soon he left. Either it happened as soon as he found out ("Darling, why is that matinee jacket floating in mid air being knitted?" "Why, sweetheart, I'm a witch." "You're what? I'm off!" (Door slams.)), or it happened some time after, when he realised on reflection that he couldn't take it. If the latter, then it's possible that the couple had been married, in a WW ceremony, so Tom/Voldemort was telling the truth - in WW terms, they were man and wife. If they hadn't also had a Muggle ceremony, the baby subsequently born would have been a candidate for an orphanage. I'm not saying that this happened, of course - just that it's a situation that could arise given the two parallel worlds. It might also be relevant that we're learning Tom/Voldemort's past from his own lips, and if he rewrites history to the extent that he tells the DEs that he's a pureblood, then my suspicion is that he would be just as likely to rewrite it by retrofitting a marriage to his parents. It's exactly the sort of thing that a nasty little snob like him, brought up in mid 20th century Britain, with an intense belief in his own superiority, would do. From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 23:04:42 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 23:04:42 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98772 *snip* > Del, who would have thought Viktor was just a plot device in GoF if > only Hermione wasn't still writing to him in OoP. Regarding Hermione still writing to Victor in OoP: I made this point in more detail a while back, in post number 97326, so you might want to check there for the details of my argument. Just for the sake of summarizing though, I think the canon supports the conclusion that the reason Hermione was writing to Viktor right in front of Ron in OoP was to make Ron jealous (the reasoning, quotes and chapter citations appear in message # 97326, if you're interested; in fact I'd be interested to know if you have a different interpretation of the chain of communication between Hermione, Ron & Harry than I). We don't know how often Hermione has written to Viktor other than the one time that we do know about, but as it appears to me that she was trying to make Ron jealous the one time we saw her writing to him, isn't it possible that is the only reason she is still writing to him? --Cory From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue May 18 23:29:07 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 23:29:07 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Tom's story truth or fiction? In-Reply-To: <20040518220232.12095.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98773 animallover 11: > It is possible that Tom has the story wrong. It is possible that maybe his Mom left his dad (family pressure or something) and she told Tom Jr that dad left so he would not go looking for him. It is possible that the whole situation was set up by his mother.... Jen: You have to wonder where Tom Jr. got his information. Documentation wouldn't be a priority in an orphanage at the time of TR's birth. And we don't know who took him to the orphanage, right? If a mid-wife or someone assisting with the birth took Tom Jr. there, who's to say how much of his family history she would even know? Yet, Tom Jr. knows he's related to Salazar Slytherin. How? Did his mom leave him a letter? Then we have the very cryptic information from JKR herself that we will "find out more about the circumstances of his birth in the next book", which tells me Riddle could very well have misinformation, or not enough information, about how he ended up in a Muggle orphanage. Whew! No answers here, just more questions. I take what Diary!Tom tells Harry in COS with a grain of salt, but I think *he* believes the story of his birth. Jen, hoping someone will share a theory on how Tom found out about his history. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 19 00:03:45 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 00:03:45 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Tom's story truth or fiction? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98774 > Jen: You have to wonder where Tom Jr. got his information. > Documentation wouldn't be a priority in an orphanage at the time of TR's birth. And we don't know who took him to the orphanage, right? If a mid-wife or someone assisting with the birth took Tom Jr. there, who's to say how much of his family history she would even know?< Pippin: I actually researched this once to find out how orphans of the period were typically treated, starting with Great Ormond Street because it was the only British orphanage name I knew, on account of its connection with Peter Pan. Fortunately a lot of people and organizations have put their history on the web. I imagine that the Marvolo family kicked their daughter out for marrying a Muggle and wouldn't take her back when she wound up pregnant and abandoned. The Wizarding world doesn't seem much on social services, so maybe she ended up giving birth in a Muggle charity hospital. Many of these were connected with orphanages. The orphanage would have tried to get the father to pay child support. Often the father was willing to do this to avoid publicity. The child's name was changed, the infant was sent to a foster family until the age of five or six, and then restored to the orphanage. This was horribly traumatic as you can guess. The former foster parents were allowed to visit the child but many times they couldn't afford it. The child's true name and ancestry were sealed. Tom wouldn't have known his real name until his Hogwarts letter came. But I don't suppose the files of an orphanage would have been safe from TM Riddle, so he could have found out who his father was that way. His mother might have left a letter for him explaining who she was. But I rather like the idea that Salazar left all sorts of goodies in the Chamber for his heir. Pippin From kreneeb at hotmail.com Wed May 19 00:45:28 2004 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 00:45:28 -0000 Subject: Ginevra Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98775 antoshachekhonte said... >So I've been looking through baby name books (pathetic, I know) >regarding Ginny's full name: Ginevra Molly Weasley. >"Ginevra" has a couple of roots (so to speak). One is a (possible) >connection to the ginger plant ('gingiver' being the name in late >Latin). Of course, 'ginger' is a common nickname for a redhead. >The other is that it is a Celtic name related to "Guinevere." Both >mean "foam white." Now the implications are interesting. First of >all, Guinevere is the beloved of both King Arthur and of Lancelot. >Hmmm.... All kinds of implications there, running from the romantic >to the Freudian. Secondly--and this is a bit of a stretch, but >grant that JKR is interested in both Celtic and Classical Greek >myth--'white foam' is, mythologically speaking, connecten with the >birth of Aphrodite/Venus. When Chronos/Saturn was killed by >Zeus/Jupiter and his other children, they threw his severed >testicles (ewww!) into the ocean, raising a (wait for it) white >foam. Out of this was the Goddess of Love born. THat's what >Botticelli is depicting in his famous painting of Venus-in-a-garlic- >butter-sauce. >So we have connections between Ginny and two of the great >traditional symbols of the female romantic ideal.... Oh, and also a >very spicy-hot, yummy tuber. kitten says... I don't by the whole Ginny=Ginevra=Guinevere=Harry's girl thing... mainly because I think every ship has something of this nature. The Harry/Luna ship has the alchemy connection, the word Luna is an alchemical symbol also known as the bride, or the white queen" and Susan(as in Bones) means "lily" in Hebrew, and we don't have to change her name to make it work. So I just don't see it being a Clue for Harry/Ginny. These "Clues" are great fun but not proof of anything, Though I might be a little biased because I don't like Harry with Hermione, Harry with Ginny, or Harry with Luna ;) My biggest problem with Harry/ Ginny is that it seems to me that R/Hr shippers in their desperate desire to not have Harry being the "third wheel" immediately pairs him up with the first girl they can come up with, which is Ginny. You can look at all the R/H who also ship Harry with Ginny, and EVERY single R/Hr fanfic I have read always has a Harry and Ginny side dish to go along with it. I have yet to hear the "obvious evidence" that is in the books. All the evidence I have heard is of the nature of "Ginevra=Guinevere" type, things like "Ginny looks like Harry's mom" or " JKR is writing a classic boarding school story" I just don't buy these clues mainly because there isn't any thing in cannon to support them. It has been said that R/Hr and H/G are the most "obvious" ships in the books... I, being an R/Hr shipper, can understand the R/Hr being obvious, but did I miss something with Harry/Ginny? I just don't see it as "obvious" in the books. Can someone please explain this "Harry and Ginny is obvious" thing? Kitten Who ships Harry with *anybody* other then Hermione, Ginny, or luna From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 19 00:52:13 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 00:52:13 -0000 Subject: Weddings in the WW -Tom Jr. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98776 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "muscatel1988" wrote: > > After reading all the interesting posts that flowed from this one, > it occurs to me that we don't know anything at all about how wizards > and witches get married, other than that they do. > > There must be, by assumption, some sort of ceremony, which would, in > the WW, be legally binding. But the point is that the Muggle > authorities would have no record of such a union, so that if a > Muggle and a witch/wizard were to be married only by the WW > ceremony, a child born to them would, for Muggle legal purposes, be > illegitimate. > bboy_mn: Well, we are drifting a bit from direct discussion of canon, but I think the discussion is still closely enough related to events in the book that we can continue. First, let's look a marriage in its most basic form. It is nothing but a contract; two parties mutually agree to the terms, they sign their names, and the event is verified by an official and witnesses. ...in it's most basic form. "Do you take this man to be your husband?" "I do" "Do you take this woman to be your wife?" "I do" "Twenty bucks... sign here." Add the official's signature and a couple of witnesses, and you have a legally binding contract. In the beginning, in the absents of clear law regarding marriage, marriages were simply recorded at the local church. Point; as long as there are neutral witnesses, and an unbias third part to officiate, you have a wedding. Second, Tom Riddle Sr being a muggle and assuming a marriage took place, would have logically arranged, at least, a simple muggle wedding. It could have been as simple as recording the marriage at the local church, courthouse, magistrate, or tax office. He would not have logically arrange a Magical wizard's wedding; that make no sense. > muscatel1988: > > Warning: what follows is pure speculation! We only have > ...edited... > > It might also be relevant that we're learning Tom/Voldemort's past > from his own lips, and if he rewrites history to the extent that he > tells the DEs that he's a pureblood, then my suspicion is that he > would be just as likely to rewrite it by retrofitting a marriage to > his parents. It's exactly the sort of thing that a nasty little > snob like him, brought up in mid 20th century Britain, with an > intense belief in his own superiority, would do. bboy_mn: Here I whole heartedly agree, we can't trust anything Tom/Voldemort says. Voldemort says he is Heir of Slytherin, and Dumbledore echos that statement, but we don't know if Dumbledore is merely echoing Tom's assertion or if he is stating an independantly verified fact; so even Dumbledore's statement can't be completely trusted. In this group, the everwise always brilliant Shaun Hately uses this tagline in this posts- "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil This discribes Voldemort to a TEE. He alters facts to fit his views, or more accurately, I suspect, he alters facts to conform to his dillusions. Anything Voldemort says needs to be read with a healthy does of skepticism and suspicion. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From BrwNeil at aol.com Wed May 19 01:17:59 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:17:59 EDT Subject: Do brooms fit in trunks. Message-ID: <81.c268736.2ddc0fc7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98777 On numerous occasions JKR has mentioned that Harry put his broom in his trunk. Even if he has one of those old steamer trunks, I doubt a broom would fit in it. How does he do it? Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed May 19 01:19:18 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 01:19:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98778 Neri wrote:: >I was referring only for wasting his great potential for a whole year doing house cleaning and feeding a hippogryph< Pippin answered: Potential to do what? I'm afraid the mission wouldn't have interested Sirius unless it was really dangerous, and on any dangerous mission, somebody might have made a mistake and he might have died. Neri again: This is exactly why I suggested missions for Sirius where he would act alone and endanger only himself. There are several kinds of missions in warfare in which the ability to act alone and take risks is essential for getting results. Sirius had a very good record of working alone in a hostile territory, something that very few soldeirs are capable of. Yes, it would have been dangerous and he might have died, but this is what he wanted to do, what he was capable of doing and what the Order needed him to do. The other Order member were taking big risks, so why shouldn't Sirius? Pippin: I think the real complaint here is against JKR, who's up against the same problem Shakespeare had with Mercutio. It seems a sad waste to create a wonderful character only so he can die and make the hero feel like a failure. But that, I'm afraid, is what Sirius was for. Neri: I fully agree that Sirius was for, but I wasn't criticizing JKR. JKR intentionally chose to plot her story so that Sirius death would result from a series of strategic mistakes, made by none other than the great DD (At least this is the subject line above, although for some reason the discussion keeps shifting to Sirius' temper). Had Sirius died because he wanted a dangerous job and DD gave it to him, I wouldn't have any problem with it. War is a dangerous business and sides that are not prepared to take any risks usually lose. But as it happened, DD wasted Sirius for a whole year in order to keep him safe and then lost him anyway. Neri From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Wed May 19 01:22:28 2004 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 01:22:28 -0000 Subject: Hermione as Harry's Anima (Was: Clues for SHIPS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98779 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: > . > Jem: > The argument for Hermione being Harry's anima is incredibly astute and > she probably is but do we marry ourselves or do we marry "the other"? Jim: > I've often said that the differences between Hermione and Harry > compliment each other - I used the words yin and yang. Hi guys! I thought I would post the essay I had written here about this very issue. It is easier than outlining why I believe that the symbolism of Hermione as Harry's anima does point to H/Hr. I apologise because it is *very* long. :) THE ANIMA: JUNGIAN ARCHETYPES AND H/HR What follows is not a discussion on the totality of the archetypal imagery within Harry Potter (of which there is a lot). This essay focuses solely on the archetypal imagery surrounding Hermione and her place within the Harry Potter universe. Within this essay, I will refer to existing literature on archetypes and to some existing analyses of archetypes in the Harry Potter books. You will find the links to these throughout the essay. Let me just clarify that I am not an expert on Jung nor on archetypes per se. I am a past student of psychology and an amateur (at best) mythologist. I say this in order to present the following within the proper context. I would not wish anybody to attribute to me more expertise than I have. This is also not an exhaustive analysis and I am sure that there is much more to say. I offer this as an introduction therefore and hope that the responses and ensuing debate will assist in rewriting a more thorough analysis in the fullness of time. ARCHETYPES: WHAT ARE THEY? Any essay on archetypal imagery in literature must of course come with a definition of what an archetype is. The concept of archetypes was developed by the psychologist Carl Gustav Jung (1875 ? 1961). Initially a student of Sigmund Freud, Jung was a Swiss-German psychoanalyst who developed one of several theories of the unconscious. Jung theorised that there were two sorts of unconscious ? the personal and the collective. Within the collective unconscious, Jung discerned the existence of archetypes (C.G. Jung, `The Archetypes of the Collective Unconscious'): `The collective unconscious, being the repository of man's experience and at the same time the prior condition of this experience, is an image of the world which has taken aeons to form. In this image certain features, the archetypes, have crystallized out in the course of time. They are the ruling powers, the gods, images of the dominant laws and principles, and of typical, regularly occurring events in the soul's cycle of experience.' These archetypes occur repeatedly as images within the mythology of the world ? the wise old man, the shadow and the anima are just a few. Jung postulated that myths are narrative elaborations of archetypal images (ie. conscious representations of unconscious instincts). The anima in particular, is the archetype that interests me here. THE ANIMA The anima is the female soul image of a man (as the animus is the masculine soul image of a woman). The anima therefore is the feminine archetype of the male psyche. In other words, the `inner woman'. Anima literally means `soul' in Latin. The form the anima takes depends on the state and needs of the man's soul at the time. S.F. Walker, Jung and the Jungians on Myth, pg 48: 'Representations of the anima are legion in art, folklore, literature, mythology, and popular culture. Every female figure who enters the tale to cast a spell on a hero, or to lead him into and then perhaps out of the labyrinthine perils of life, is the figure of the anima in another mythological incarnation: Ariadne, Melusine, Circe ' The anima can cause delusions and negativity, but positively expressed, is the man's companion in the exploration of the psyche. It is the anima who sends the figure on the exploration of the unknown: 'If one is on good terms with one's Anima she can prove a valuable messenger between the unconscious and the conscious, a connecting link - a veritable Hermes.' (http://www.wynja.com/personality/jungarchf.html) The anima can take many forms, (one of the most popular images is that of a bird) but as a man matures, so too does the form of the anima become increasingly focused within one figure (S.F.Walker, Jung and the Jungians on Myth): 'To realize one's anima is to begin to integrate the power of eros into one's life and to gain some glimpse of the secret of "the love that moves the sun and other stars".' This concept of the integration of the two dual aspects of a person's nature (ie. integration of the feminine `anima' for men and the masculine `animus' for woman), corresponds very closely to concepts such as yin and yang ? the integration of the masculine and feminine to form a whole. My assertion is that within the Harry Potter series, the archetypal figure of the anima has become increasingly expressed in the form of Hermione. HERMIONE AS ANIMA As a character, Hermione has come to increasingly embody Harry's anima. In her essay, The Secrets of Harry Potter (http://www.cgjungpage.org/content/view/145/28/), Jungian analyst Gail Grynbaum refers to Hermione as a soror mystica: 'At school, Harry goes through his Training with two new friends, Hermione Granger, a soror mystica who is also a lively, challenging presence, and Ron Weasley, a good brother figure.' The term soror mystica literally means `mystical sister' ? the female half of the male-female partnership. In alchemical literature, these two together seek the philosopher's stone. Hermione's and Harry's shared muggle experience is an important foundation for this mirroring. They both enter as outsiders into the magical world. 'The alchemical partnership seeks, in essence, to find each person's own divinity through the conscious assistance of another who, in intimate relationship, mirrors back all the aspects of the other's soul which lay hidden.' (http://www.iconoclastpress.com/sorormystica.html) Gail Grynbaum analyses Hermione's increasing role of the anima in Goblet of Fire: 'Hermione, ever an anima wisely guides Harry while confidently grappling with powerful energies of her own. She, too, is learning compassion: she actively imagines ways of helping Harry as well as the House Elves, the slaves traditionally assigned to wizards . Her social consciousness stems from a mixture of exquisite sensitivity to unfair treatment and identification with a group that mirrors her own outcast status, as a witch in a Muggle family. Her special psychic gifts feed a thinking that is becoming a trusted road map for Harry.' Within the texts themselves, we see Hermione increasingly taking on the role of anima. Hermione is the one who points Harry in the right direction and guides him through the `labyrinthine perils' of his quest. It is Hermione who acts as a messenger, reflected in her name which is a feminine form of `Hermes'. In PS/ SS, it is Hermione who solves the riddle that enables Harry to pass through into the last room and obtain the philosopher's stone. In CoS, it is Hermione who provides Harry with the necessary information to solve the riddle of the Chamber of Secrets. In PoA, Hermione literally acts as a guide with the help of the timeturner and helps Harry to save his Godfather (archetypal guardian of Harry's psychic underworld). In GoF, it is the summoning charm that Hermione teaches Harry which allows him to get past the Dragon and grab the golden egg and which allows him to call to him the Triwizard Cup (archetypal chalice) and escape Voldemort (the archetypal shadow). In OotP, it is Hermione who leads Harry into forming the DA, provides him with the means to a voice in the Rita Skeeter article and leads him out of his self-imposed solitude at Christmas time. Here she clearly acts as messenger between Harry and the outside world. This is developed further when Hermione appears in Harry's dream and when Harry begins to hear Hermione's voice in his head, representing the 'messenger' between his conscious and unconscious self. Hermione also acts as Harry's equal opposite. When Harry is at his wildest, it is Hermione who attempts to restore equlibrium: `Harry,' said Hermione in a rather frightened voice, `er how how did Voldemort get into the Ministry of Magic without anybody realizing he was there?' 'How do I know?' bellowed Harry. `The question is how we're going to get in there!' 'But Harry, think about this,' said Hermione, taking a step towards him, `it's five o'clock in the afternoon ' OotP, pg 645 Hermione's role as anima is clear even in the beginning of the series in PS/SS, where she represents the overlogical reaction to Harry's unsure anxiety, providing him with an overload of information. 'Are you really?' said Hermione. 'I know all about you, of course - I got a few extra books for background reading, and you're in Modern Magical History and The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts and Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century. 'Am I?' said Harry, feeling dazed. PS: 6 (UK Edition), pg 79 Hermione, as Harry's anima, is the one who is in the best position to point out Harry's weaknesses: `You this isn't a criticism, Harry! But you do sort of I mean ? don't you think you've got a bit of a ? a ? saving-people thing?' she said. OotP, pg 646 The imagery of the two coming together to form a whole is repeated often within the book and is reflected in the circular imagery that surrounds the two in OotP and in previous books (e.g. Pig flying over their heads). Within this context of integration of the feminine, the following scene is particularly interesting: 'He and Ron both tapped the teacups they were supposed to be charming with their wands. Harry's sprouted four very short legs that could not reach the desk and wriggled pointlessly in midair. Ron's grew four very thin spindly legs that hoisted the cup off the desk with great difficulty, trembled for a few seconds, then folded, causing the cup to crack into two `Well, yes, that occurred to me, too,' said Hermione, allowing her teacup to jog in neat little circles around Harry's, whose stubby little legs were still unable to touch the desktop ' OotP pg 598-9 The above imagery is very important. Firstly, I would draw your attention to the length of the legs on the cups. Ron's are thin and spindly, reflecting both his height and his insecurity (his legs are not stable). Harry's legs in contrast are short. This reflects his shorter stature but can also be said to represent his current emotional state (his has not quite found his legs yet). That said, the imagery takes on new connotations as Hermione's cup circles Harry's. We can compare this imagery to Leonardo Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man. The Vitruvian Man is the anatomical drawing of a man surrounded by a circle. The symbolism of Da Vinci's drawing is discussed below: 'The circle around the man's body is a feminine symbol of protection. The feminine circle with a naked man represents the balance between male and female ' Design in the Da Vinci Code (http://web.syr.edu/~adhanson/words/page7e.html) This feminine circle (Hermione's cup) around the masculine centre (Harry's cup) is therefore particularly striking. Particularly when the following quote is also considered: `I mis-translated ehwaz,' said Hermione furiously. `It means partnership, not defence ' OotP, pg 631 The above symbolises in my opinion what will ultimately be the integration of the hero with his feminine aspect and the marriage between the masculine and feminine. Hermione's progression to saying the name `Voldemort' in OotP is therefore particularly important. She is the only one of Harry's peers to say the name, which has significant meaning for her ultimate role as Harry's partner. As one analyst points out: 'Only when we don't deny the existence of our own Jungian shadow and recognize our private dark side, we can [sic] hope to know ourselves completely ' http://theliterarylink.com/potterrr.html This progression is an important one for Harry and Hermione's increasing integration as it represents their increasingly equal development. Hermione has progressed to recognizing and identifying the shadow and can now fully stand as equal by Harry's side. WHAT THIS MEANS FOR H/HR As Harry's anima and his soror mystica, Hermione has an important role to play within the progression of the plot. Gail Grynbaum alludes to this when she states the following about Voldemort's rebirth in GoF: 'Unlike the royal marriage of the King and Queen in the Rosarium Philosophorum "where love plays the decisive part," here power rules: the egomaniacal Voldemort uses only himself and three dismembered parts to transform into a red-eyed, murderous bridegroom. There is no feminine partner, no bride.' Unlike Harry, Voldemort (as shadow) is the epitome of the unintegrated psyche. He has no feminine partner - no bride. It is my assertion therefore, that Hermione's role as Harry's feminine counterpart (his equal opposite) will be of primary importance to Harry's hero quest and to the ultimate defeat of Voldemort. Furthermore, JKR has developed Hermione in such a way that her role as anima is clear. All of the clues point to the role of female companion being fulfilled by Hermione. For this reason, I believe that H/Hr is the ship that will sail the HP seas. Sienna From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 01:29:23 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 01:29:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98780 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Neri: > Had > Sirius died because he wanted a dangerous job and DD gave it to him, > I wouldn't have any problem with it. War is a dangerous business and > sides that are not prepared to take any risks usually lose. But as it > happened, DD wasted Sirius for a whole year in order to keep him safe > and then lost him anyway. > > Neri Exactly, thank you! It is not like Sirius wanted something unrelated to what was going on around him. He wanted to fight and WW is in the middle of war preparations. Actually, for the members of the Order the war already started. So, again without going into details, Dumbledore could have come up for something useful for Sirius to do. Alla From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Wed May 19 01:35:31 2004 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 01:35:31 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: <20040518220244.16723.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98781 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > --- mcmaxslb wrote: > > Trixie wrote: > > > I think Luna may like Ron, but he obviously does > > not like Luna. > > > He thinks she's weird. I also think Hermione's > > jealous of Luna's > > > liking of Ron. She always says nasty little > > things about her, when > > > normally Hermione is quite nice. > > > > > > Hermione acts jealous about Cho as well. So that's a > > draw. > > > > > How so? She defended Cho's wishy-washy, jealous > behavior and encouraged Harry in the relationshp. > > > Rebecca I'm not sure agree with the Hermione is jealous of Luna line of argument. Hermione reacts in an entirely natural way to a girl who is almost the antithesis of her. She reacts to Luna's wild assertions, not to Luna herself. And she reacts to her long before Luna demonstrates in any *real* way that she *might* have a crush on Ron. I don't think the two are connected personally. Sienna From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed May 19 02:10:19 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 02:10:19 -0000 Subject: Do brooms fit in trunks. In-Reply-To: <81.c268736.2ddc0fc7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98782 Neil wrote: > On numerous occasions JKR has mentioned that Harry put his broom in > > his trunk. Even if he has one of those old steamer trunks, I doubt a > broom would fit in it. How does he do it? > > Neil Eustace_Scrubb: Perhaps the trunk has a permanent expanding charm on it, like the Ministry of Magic cars that Arthur borrows (4th year?) to get everyone to King's Cross? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From teshara at yahoo.com Wed May 19 02:51:56 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 02:51:56 -0000 Subject: References to JKR's quotes on upcoming deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98783 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jksunflower2002" wrote: > With the recent discussion taking place on who will not survive to > the end of the series, I thought I'd post a quick reference list I > compiled a while ago of JKR's quotes mentioning upcoming deaths > (courtesy of Quick Quotes on the Floo Network, of course): <> > The Express > 28 March 2000 > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0300- > express.html > > She said yesterday that while there are some issues she would never > tackle in a children's book - including hard drugs and teenage > pregnancies - she would not shy away from addressing themes like > death. But she did cover drugs in OOP. It was subtle but there were illegal magical enhancers going around. Hermione was confiscating them and Ron begged her to give him some. I don't remember what it was supposed to be, but when she analyzed it the make-up was completely different and possibly dangerous. I'd imagine like anyone else, she changes her mind about things from time to time. ~ Chelle From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 19 03:01:37 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 03:01:37 -0000 Subject: References to JKR's quotes on upcoming deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98784 x > wrote: > > > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0300- > > express.html > > > > She said yesterday that while there are some issues she would never > > tackle in a children's book - including hard drugs and teenage > > pregnancies - she would not shy away from addressing themes like > > death. Chelle wrote: > But she did cover drugs in OOP. It was subtle but there were illegal magical enhancers going around. Hermione was confiscating them and Ron begged her to give him some. Potioncat: I always thought Snape's opening speech in Harry's first Potions class sounded like drugs to me....something along the line of "coursing through the veins..." But of course, I'll bet JKR is not going to have anyone addicted to magic brownies.... Potioncat From teshara at yahoo.com Wed May 19 03:06:18 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 03:06:18 -0000 Subject: Weddings in the WW (Was: Sharing names - Heritage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98785 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "muscatel1988" wrote: > > There must be, by assumption, some sort of ceremony, which would, in > the WW, be legally binding. But the point is that the Muggle > authorities would have no record of such a union, so that if a > Muggle and a witch/wizard were to be married only by the WW > ceremony, a child born to them would, for Muggle legal purposes, be > illegitimate. > Just because normal people don't know about witches and wizards dosn't mean there aren't records that are cross filed. We know the British authorities know about the WW because Fudge has to make explinations for revealing Sirius was on the loose in PoA. I can't imagine he popped into the Prime Minister's fire one night, did some parlor tricks and went: "Now that you see magic is real, I have to confess there are hundreds of us, we have our own hidden communities, and I hate to say it but there's a maniac on the loose. Terribly sorry." Wizarding weddings would probably be impressive, but I'm sure they make arrangements for mixed marriages. Speaking of mixed marriages, Seamus says in the first book that his father finding out his mother was a witch was a bit of a shock. I always took this to mean Mr. Finnegan didn't know Mrs. Finnegan was a witch until after she was a Mrs. Possibly even up to the point when Seamus got his letter. (His mum does seem to be a bit out of touch...) Maybe that's part of the Statude of Secrecy as well. If you marry a muggle you have to forsake magic unless your child requires training. ~ Chelle From teshara at yahoo.com Wed May 19 03:09:59 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 03:09:59 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Tom's story truth or fiction? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98786 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Jen, hoping someone will share a theory on how Tom found out about > his history. The Sorting Hat would remember. Chatty thing. ~ Chelle From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed May 19 03:12:22 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 03:12:22 -0000 Subject: Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98787 > kitten says... > I don't by the whole Ginny=Ginevra=Guinevere=Harry's girl thing... > mainly because I think every ship has something of this nature. The > Harry/Luna ship has the alchemy connection, the word Luna is an > alchemical symbol also known as the bride, or the white queen" and > Susan(as in Bones) means "lily" in Hebrew, and we don't have to > change her name to make it work. So I just don't see it being a Clue > for Harry/Ginny. These "Clues" are great fun but not proof of > anything, Though I might be a little biased because I don't like > Harry with Hermione, Harry with Ginny, or Harry with Luna ;) > > My biggest problem with Harry/ Ginny is that it seems to me that > R/Hr shippers in their desperate desire to not have Harry being > the "third wheel" immediately pairs him up with the first girl they > can come up with, which is Ginny. You can look at all the R/H who > also ship Harry with Ginny, and EVERY single R/Hr fanfic I have read > always has a Harry and Ginny side dish to go along with it. I have > yet to hear the "obvious evidence" that is in the books. All the > evidence I have heard is of the nature of "Ginevra=Guinevere" type, > things like "Ginny looks like Harry's mom" or " JKR is writing a > classic boarding school story" I just don't buy these clues mainly > because there isn't any thing in cannon to support them. > > It has been said that R/Hr and H/G are the most "obvious" ships in > the books... I, being an R/Hr shipper, can understand the R/Hr being > obvious, but did I miss something with Harry/Ginny? I just don't see > it as "obvious" in the books. Can someone please explain this "Harry > and Ginny is obvious" thing? I really wasn't saying anything about shipping with this. I was just exploring the implications of some new information: Ginny's full name. I have said I'm happy to think of Harry with any of the likely suspects--or even with some one else, or even with no one, so long as JKR doesn't try to pretend that eros isn't at the center of most teen relationships, one way or another. In other words, I'm not really a shipper. Having said that, I think you're being quite hard on Ginny... er, Ginevra. She's one of the more interesting secondary characters, and has grown more so as the series has progressed. Antosha From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed May 19 03:21:34 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 03:21:34 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Tom's story truth or fiction? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98788 > Pippin: > The child's true name and ancestry were sealed. Tom wouldn't > have known his real name until his Hogwarts letter came. But I > don't suppose the files of an orphanage would have been safe > from TM Riddle, so he could have found out who his father was > that way. His mother might have left a letter for him explaining > who she was. But I rather like the idea that Salazar left all sorts > of goodies in the Chamber for his heir. Jen: The idea of Tom finding out his Slytherin heritage through opening the chamber, and not before, is a compelling idea. I like this possibility better than a letter from Mum, since she probably died during childbirth or shortly thereafter and wouldn't have much time to write a letter *and* make sure it was delivered to the orphanage with Tom. Oooh, I just thought of something though. Wouldn't it be another interesting parallel if Tom Jr. was left on the orphanage doorstep with a couple of letters, one for the staff and one magically-sealed letter for Tom Jr.? Very similar to Harry's entry into the Muggle world. Still, the idea of Tom Jr. opening the Chamber, thus verifying his suspicion that he was related to Salazar Slytherin, makes for a very dramatic moment. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 03:59:01 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 03:59:01 -0000 Subject: Prophecy fullfilment in SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98789 > Meri: > > Here's my question, if Harry had been killed by Quirrell there, > > would this have been counted as fullfilment of the prophecy? If > only > > Harry can defeat LV, then is LV the only one who can kill Harry? > > Would Quirrell have been able to kill Harry? Any thoughts? > > Geoff: > Yes, but surely at this point, Quirrell and Voldemort were in a > symbiotic relationship, so how far were Quirrell's actions actually > those of Voldemort? Maybe Voldemort was trying to get his head round > this problem..... Carol: What about the earlier attempt to kill Harry, cursing his broom during the Quidditch match? Even though Voldemort is inside Quirrell's head, keeping an eye on him, so to speak, he hasn't completely robbed him of his own personality or will. He's not possessed, exactly, since he has conversations with his "master" and knows who is who. So, IMO, it would have been Quirrell (or, technically, a fall from a broom), not Voldemort, that killed Harry if he had died in that scene (rather a fatal blow to the series as well, but that's beside the point). My point, or rather, my question is this: We know that Harry is the only one who can destroy Voldemort, but do we know that Voldemort is the only person or thing that can kill Harry? I don't see anything in the infamously ambiguous Prophecy to that effect. "Either must die at the hand of the other and neither can live while the other survives" only means, IMO, that if Voldemort is to be destroyed, Harry must destroy him (in which case Harry will "live" rather than merely surviving as he does now), but if Voldemort were to destroy Harry, the only one who can vanquish him, he would become immortal and invincible. It doesn't mean that Harry can't die (theoretically) in some other way before the confrontation takes place. Or at least I don't see anything to that effect in the Prophecy. Certainly Snape, assuming that he's familiar with the Prophecy, doesn't think it means that Harry is invulnerable to any kind of illness or injury other than an AK from Voldemort, or he wouldn't have thought it was necessary to counter Quirrell's curse at the Quidditch match. Why try to save Harry from a fall (or from a werewolf in PoA or the DEs in OoP), if Harry can't die except by Voldemort's hand? (IMO, if Harry were bitten by Lupin in werewolf mode, he'd be in as bad a plight as anyone else, and if Bella or Lucius Malfoy had AK'd him, he'd be dead.) Opinions, anyone? Carol From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed May 19 04:02:42 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:02:42 -0000 Subject: Ginevra - why is H/G obvious In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98790 kitten says: It has been said that R/Hr and H/G are the most "obvious" ships in the books... I, being an R/Hr shipper, can understand the R/Hr being obvious, but did I miss something with Harry/Ginny? I just don't see it as "obvious" in the books. Can someone please explain this "Harry and Ginny is obvious" thing? Neri: I think it was me who referred to these two ships as "obvious" several days ago, so I guess now I owe the explanation (in fact I think it was in the post that unintentionally started the current wave of shipping. My sincere apologies to all the non-shippers ;-) So lets see, why is H/G obvious? Here is my list: 1. When the evil wizard kidnaps the innocent maiden to his secret chamber and puts an enchanted sleep on her, and the hero goes through underground tunnels to save her, slays the guardian monster with a sword and get rid of the evil wizard by finding where his heart is hidden, well, my mom taught me at an early age how these stories are supposed to end. 2. When a girl has a desperate crush on the hero for several years and he doesn't bother to notice her, well, at least in the books he just might notice her in the end (or why had the author devised this crush in the first place?) 3. When our girl actually had the opportunity to go to a great ball with said hero, who just happened to be the school champion at the time, but she refuses only because she had already promised to go with the least popular boy in the school, well, in the books (as opposed to realty) such a noble behavior is usually rewarded appropriately in the end. 4. When said girl gets herself a personality, guts and two boyfriends, and tells the hero exactly what she thinks about his rude behavior, then he really should start noticing her. 5. When our girl replaces the hero in his position in quidditch, and wins the cup by stealing the sneach just under the nose of hero's previous girlfriend, that just might be a clue. 6. When this girl is the only person who can understand the hero when he is in a terrible situation, because she went through a similar terrible experience herself, yep, this is pretty obvious also. But I fully agree with Kitten on one point (I think I sniped it, sorry): I don't attribute any importance to the Ginevra name either. Neri From c_robocker at yahoo.com Wed May 19 02:44:27 2004 From: c_robocker at yahoo.com (c_robocker) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 02:44:27 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: <33DB6787.13203B9C.FD754928@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98791 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, TrixieCookie2326 at a... wrote: > "Hermione acts jealous about Cho as well. So that's a draw." > > 1. This was attributed to me, I never said this. > > > JR wrote: > "I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you list some specific > instances > where Hermione acts jealous about Cho because I don't remember her > acting that way. I do remember Hermione helping Harry is his > relationship with Cho." > > I agree with JR on this. She's never been jealous of any girls > Harry has liked. She was jealous of Fleur when she kissed Ron. > Trixie Giving in to impulse to fan the fire I'll just add this note. I've been listening to the audio of GoF and Fleur kissed Harry, then Ron. After the kissing's all done we're told Hermione was irritated. At Fleur in general? Because she kissed Harry? Ron? hee hee Crobo From mimi.barker at mindspring.com Wed May 19 03:30:48 2004 From: mimi.barker at mindspring.com (Mimi Barker) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 03:30:48 -0000 Subject: Random facts about the Weasleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98792 On her new website, JKR states, "Before her marriage Mrs. Weasley was Molly Prewett. As you will note from chapter one, Philosopher's Stone, she has lost close family members to Voldemort." Ok, I just reread chapter one of Sorcerer's Stone (I have the American edition), and can't see where anything is that I could note indicating that Molly Prewett Weasley lost close family members to Voldemort. True, OoP, tells us about Gideon and Fabian Prewett when we are introduced to the first members of the Order, but not in chapter one, and I refuse to believe that JKR could commit a double flint on her website, by citing not only the wrong chapter, but the wrong book as well. Or could she? Can anyone show me where I'm not reading between the lines carefully enough in PS/SS? Surely this isn't a difference between the British and American editions? Mimi, befuddled From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 19 04:13:42 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:13:42 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98793 > Neri again: > This is exactly why I suggested missions for Sirius where he would act alone and endanger only himself. The other Order member were taking big risks, so why shouldn't Sirius? > Ah, I think this is where we come to the parting of the ways "the person Sirius cared most about in the world was you [...] you were coming to regard Sirius as a mixture of father and brother. Voldemort knew already, of course, that Sirius was in the Order, that you knew where he was -- but Kreacher's information made him realize that the one person whom you would go to any lengths to rescue was Sirius Black." -- OOP 37 Sirius could not possibly endanger only himself. Any danger to him was a danger to Harry, a danger that Dumbledore could not protect against, because in Harry reposes a power "more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature [...the power that ] took you to save Sirius tonight." Dumbledore knew that if Sirius were captured Harry would go after him and he would *not* be able to prevent it, any more than he had been able to stop Harry from going after the Stone, or entering the Chamber, or following Ron into the Shrieking Shack. Sirius was more heroic than we realize. By keeping himself safe, much as he hated doing it, he protected Harry until Harry had strength enough to survive the confrontation with Voldemort at the MoM. Pippin From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed May 19 04:14:23 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:14:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" > wrote: > > > Neri: > > Yep, I completely agree with Alla here. Keeping Sirius in 12GP > was one of several glaring mistakes that DD did in OotP. To > DD's credit, this is a classic strategic mistake that many > commanders fail to avoid: they stick their troops into defensive > positions that are theoretically safer, but also prevent them from > doing anything. This invariably leads to deteriorating troop moral > that often offsets the defensive advantages.< > > Pippin: > Hmmm...but Dumbledore's troops aren't regulars, are they? My > impression was that nothing was keeping Sirius at 12GP but > Dumbledore's advice and his own conviction that it was where > he belonged. There was nothing to keep him from returning to > his tropical refuge except that Harry might need him on short > notice. Marianne here: Exactly right. I'm sure Sirius was not kept at Grimmauld Place as a prisoner. He had the freedeom to simply walk out of everyone's life and go bask on a beach somewhere. I think Dumbledore knew perfectly well Sirius wouldn't do that because he knew that Sirius would see that as an abandonment of Harry and no power on earth would make him do that. Dumbledore's mistake is that, while he left the choice in Sirius' hands on what to do ("Should I stay or should I go?" for all you Clash fans out there) as the leader and assigner of tasks in this irregular corps, he more or less said to a "brave, clever and energetic man" (DD's words, not mine) "Stay put. Stay hidden. There's nothing I as your leader can think of for you to do that plays into those strengths. So content yourself with keeping the place free of dust." Yes, I know. Sirius is a member of the corps and, if nothing better as an assignment comes along, then, sure he should be content with keeping the Order's headquarters clean. But, after that one outing to see Harry off, Sirius did stay put. He did obey DD's orders to keep hidden. For 9 months. And, in all that time, we have no canon evidence that there was any task given to him that might exercise his strengths. Part of being a good leader in any situation is using the strengths of the people who follow you. You have to find ways to integrate what people are good at into the whole strategy of what you are trying to accomplish. In Sirius' case, Dumbledore failed miserably. For that matter, he erred with Snape and Harry, too. Harry is different in that he's still a child and DD's reluctance to tell Harry too much too soon is understandable. But, Dumbledore also misjudged how Snape would react to dealing with Harry one-on-one, with the specter of James hanging over both of them. DD did no favors for Snape, either. > Pippin: on Nagini: > As a matter of fact we don't know how she got in or out of the > MoM. Maybe Malfoy transfigured possessed!Nagini into a grass > snake, put her in his pocket, flooed to the Ministry, and when the > coast was clear, transfigured her back again. Any other ideas? Marianne: I think this is just another of those things that have no explanation. JKR needed Nagini to be in the Ministry, and, without further ado, she was. Pippin: > At any rate, if the DE's can hide themselves from human spies, > surely they can hide from doggie ones, especially since they > know that one of Dumbledore's spies can be a dog. And hanging > around the MoM would scarcely be a good idea for the most > wanted wizard on the planet. Marianne: Well, Voldemort didn't seem shy about revealing himself. Granted his bumbling henchmen were botching the attempt to lay their hands on the Prophecy, but old Vmort didn't hesitate to appear when he thought he was needed. For that matter, since the Order had an Invisibility cloak (or two), why couldn't a wanted wizard remain hidden beneath it? > Neri: > > So the DEs knew about his cover as Padfoot. So what? They > also most likely knew (or could have made a reasonable guess) > that Arthur and Lupin and Moody are working for DD, and this > had not prevented DD from using either three. < > > Pippin: > None of them are wanted men. Arthur is protected by his > popularity (see CoS) and Moody by his reputation --Voldemort > could hardly expect to take him without a fight. Marianne: I'm not sure what being a wanted man has to do with anything. Moody was taken by Crouch Jr. in GoF, so surely the DEs are not quaking in their boots about getting their hands on him. And I think Neri's point still stands. If Sirius can't go out because the DEs might see a big black dog hanging about, surely Moody and Lupin are in danger whenever they may be seen because the DEs know from the previous war what side they were on. If I was Vmort, one of my orders to my loyal henchmen would be to murder any person they came across who had been a member of the original Order. Pippin: > Most wizards are scared to death of werewolves even in human > form; you'll notice no one took on Lupin at the Ministry. But all > that the DE's needed to do to finish or capture Sirius was to call > the Dementors on him. All perfectly legal, just helping the > ministry like good wizarding citizens should. Marianne: How do Dementors show up? Can they apparate? If Lucius Malfoy saw a big black dog lurking in an alley, can he simply snap his fingers and have a Dementor or two at hand instantaneously? And, if these Dementors do appear immediately, what's to prevent Sirius from apparating away from them? Pippin: > As for deteriorating morale, do you really think that's the reason > Sirius died? Suppose that GoF!Sirius, as calm and sane as > Sirius ever gets, had learned that Harry had been lured into a > trap and a rescue party was needed. Do you think he wouldn't > have done exactly what he did in OOP? Marianne: Oh, I think he'd have done that in any case. I don't think Sirius dashing off to the Ministry had anything to do with what JKR did with the whole situation in which she put Sirius in OoP. I wonder what she was thinking. Was the whole point to show that Sirius did indeed try to be a good, if cranky, soldier by staying put for all of those months, only to be drawn out of the safety of Headquarters because of Harry being in danger? If that's the case, I think she erred. I think nothing short of full body binds or being chained to the walls or rendered unconscious would have kept Sirius from going to Harry's aid. Part of the problem I've had with JKR's whole treatment of Sirius in OoP is that, in his case, magic seems to provide no assistance. He can't go out of the house because he's a wanted man and now the DEs know about Padfoot. Like there are armies of DEs on the hunt for big black dogs. There's a DE on every street corner just waiting to catch a glimpse of Padfoot. Okay, so Padfoot can't be used. But neither, apparently, can any other magic. Invisibility cloaks can't be used. Polyjuice potions can't be used. Disillusionment charms can't be used. Sirius can't even apparate to the Cote d'Azur for a day, just to get out of that dreadful house. No, sorry. Doesn't fit into the story. He must remain incarcerated in Grimmauld Place, being trapped and surly and useless. Until, of course, he dashes off to the MoM to help Harry. It's never made any sense to me. Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed May 19 04:24:03 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:24:03 -0000 Subject: References to JKR's quotes on upcoming deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98795 Massive snippage of Toad's death links... > So, there you have it. Either Sirius was the "one death", or half > the characters or better will bite the dust. Interpret as you will. > > Toad (who firmly believes Harry will experience a purely symbolic > death...won't speak for the others, though) Marianne: JKR also said that one has to be ruthless in writing children's books. She said this in reference to her husband, who was in their ktichen when JKR came in crying after having killed off Sirius, and advised her that maybe she shouldn't kill this character since it upset her. I figure that if she really means it about being ruthless, then a bunch of other characters will die, too. And, I mean main characters, not just someone who's been mentioned in passing. Why else do you think there are so many Weasleys??? It'll be easy to knock a few off. Either Charlie or Bill (or maybe both), and one of the twins. Marianne From birum at hawaii.edu Wed May 19 04:14:52 2004 From: birum at hawaii.edu (Jolene M Birum) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:14:52 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Random facts about the Weasleys Message-ID: <26c49db26c5166.26c516626c49db@hawaii.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 98796 From: Mimi > Ok, I just reread chapter one of Sorcerer's Stone (I have the > American edition), and can't see where anything is that I could > note indicating that Molly Prewett Weasley lost close family members to > Voldemort. Hagrid mentions "the McKinnons, the Bones, and the Prewetts" in chapter four of SS, on page 56. --Jolene From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 04:32:24 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:32:24 -0000 Subject: Victor Krum In-Reply-To: <20040516110944.47603.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98797 snow15145 wrote: Could Victor Krum be a male Veela and are Veela part bird? "astrud" responded: Well, JKR has never yet given any clues in the books that male veelas exists. It could be that Krum was just highly skilled in the air. And of course, one would resemble what he's good at. > > Carol: We do glimpse Viktor Krum's parents briefly in GoF. His parents are both dark-haired and his father is hook-nosed like Viktor (and like Snape, who certainly is not part Veela :-) ). I think it's just genetics, as the narrator says ("He had inherited his father's hooked nose," GoF Am. ed., p. 613). Besides, they don't allow Muggle-borns at Durmstrang. I doubt very much that they'd allow "part-human nonwizards," if I recall the expression correctly. Interestingly, Fleur's mother is mentioned, but she doesn't seem to have a father, which again raises the question of whether there are male Veelas and if not, how a girl could be only part (presumably a quarter) Veela. Carol, who thinks there must be male Veelas and female leprechauns, but that both are very rare, like female dwarves in LOTR ("It's the beards.") From laurel31 at chartermi.net Wed May 19 04:25:25 2004 From: laurel31 at chartermi.net (Laurel Carmer) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:25:25 -0000 Subject: Ginevra (SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98798 Kitten: It has been said that R/Hr and H/G are the most "obvious" ships in > the books... I, being an R/Hr shipper, can understand the R/Hr being > obvious, but did I miss something with Harry/Ginny? I just don't see > it as "obvious" in the books. Can someone please explain this "Harry > and Ginny is obvious" thing? ****Actually, Harry/Ginny is more obvious than either H/H or R/H, or any other ship. Except maybe Bill/Fleur, now that they're dating. None of the H/G clues, taken by themselves, are enough. But, if you look at them all together, it makes more sense. 1) The boarding school theme. Yes, not every hero of a boarding school story married their best friend's little sister, but it happens enough to make it noticable. 2) The other leading lady in his life is meant for someone else. Harry WILL NOT end up with Hermione. This is IMHO, of course, as is the rest of this badly written essay. H/H are very good, platonic friends. It's obvious in the story, and JKR has stated it. There aren't any other girls who have been developed as much as Ginny. 3) Ginny was the first girl Harry met who was his own age. Harry watched Ginny run after the Hogwarts Express the first time he rode it. Romantic foreshadowing, plus the fact that JKRs parents met at a train station. Yes, he met Hermione there, too, but he met Ginny first. And his first meeting with Hermione wasn't wonderful, was it? 4) Harry saved Ginny from a dragon. 5) Ginny has gotten over her crush and is now Harry's friend. 6) Even though Ginny was not prevelant in the first four books (even in CoS we didn't see much of her until the end) Harry knows more about her than he realizes. JKR has given quite interesting adjectives for Ginny, and, since the books are in Harry's POV, he has noticed these things, and filed them away. "Bright brown eyes", "Flaming red hair", "A mane of red hair", "Vivid head", anyway, you get the idea. He also knows she a powerful witch, that she's normally talkitive, that she likes cats, that she's good at Quidditch, that she has Fred and George's sense of humour and their daring-do, and he doesn't put her in the "uncool" catagory with Luna and Neville. 7) Ginny is dating other boys, apparently leaving Harry behind. 8) Harry dated Cho; Ginny dated Michael; now Cho and Michael are dating. 9) Harry has never, in any of the five books, had an unkind thought about Ginny. In OotP, he is angry with her twice, but it is to her face. He did not find her crush annoying, and was actually glad no one noticed her elbow in the butter dish. He was impressed with her Quidditch abilities. She didn't send him the singing Valentine -- she gave him a get well card her second year to his face, if she wanted to give him a Valentine she would have just given it to him, without the dwarf. 10) Harry and Ginny are the only two people, outside of Dumbledore (who doesn't really count, as he is more powerful than almost any other wizard) who have faced Voldemort and lived. 11) Ginny is the only girl in a family of six boys, and the first girl born into the Weasley family in several generations. This means she will be important somehow. Why bother to do this if it won't mean anything? She will be important to Harry, and, going along with all this other information, I think he will fall in love with her. I think the OBHWF is obvious. It's not going to be all sugar and spice. The war is going to tramatize everyone. The best place for Harry to be is with the Weasleys (who will probably be minus at least one member) for comfort. As much as they shower love on him, he does not yet feel a part of thier family. Marriage to Ginny will solidify that. Well, there you go. Feel free to disagree, as I'm sure you will. Laurel From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Wed May 19 04:32:45 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:32:45 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: <20040518220244.16723.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98799 mcmaxslb: > > Hermione acts jealous about Cho as well. So that's a > > draw. > > > > Rebecca: > How so? She defended Cho's wishy-washy, jealous > behavior and encouraged Harry in the relationshp. The Order of the Pheonix (American version) Just as he had decided not to say anything, Hermione took matters out of his hands. 'Is it Cho?' she asked in a businesslike way. 'Did she corner you after the meeting?' Numbly surprised, Harry nodded. Ron sniggered, breaking off when Hermione caught his eye. 'So - er - what did she want?' she asked in a mock casual voice. 'She -' Harry began, rather hoarsely; he cleared his throat and tried again. 'She - er -' 'Did you kiss?' asked Hermione briskly. Sounds jealous to me. "mcmaxslb" From laurel31 at chartermi.net Wed May 19 04:36:30 2004 From: laurel31 at chartermi.net (Laurel Carmer) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:36:30 -0000 Subject: Random facts about the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98800 Mimi: On her new website, JKR states, "Before her marriage Mrs. Weasley was > Molly Prewett. As you will note from chapter one, Philosopher's > Stone, she has lost close family members to Voldemort." > > Ok, I just reread chapter one of Sorcerer's Stone (I have the > American edition), and can't see where anything is that I could note > indicating that Molly Prewett Weasley lost close family members to > Voldemort. True, OoP, tells us about Gideon and Fabian Prewett when > we are introduced to the first members of the Order, but not in > chapter one, and I refuse to believe that JKR could commit a double > flint on her website, by citing not only the wrong chapter, but the > wrong book as well. Or could she? ****I think she just misspoke herself. They're not mentioned in the first chapter, but in the fourth -- when Hagrid is telling Harry about his parents. Laurel From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 04:38:42 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:38:42 -0000 Subject: Neville on the Quidditch team? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98801 AmanitaMuscaria wrote: Thinking about it further, there's that great > catch Neville makes when Harry throws him the prophecy sphere in > OoTP - maybe it's keeper or seeker after all? I could never work that > out; he's been clumsy all the way through, then all of a sudden, with > a broken nose (which affects your bifocal vision) he does a great > catch without thinking about it. > Hmmmm. Carol: Exactly. *Without thinking about it.* He's fine when he doesn't have time to become self-conscious and think "I can't." Rather like Ron, who's a very good keeper when he trusts his instincts and turns off his conscious mind. I don't think Neville will play Quidditch for Hogwarts, much less for England, but I do think that he'll become less clumsy and forgetful when he stops thinking of himself in those terms. Success breeds success--unless you think about it too much and assume that you can't repeat a good performance. Carol, who can only type if she trusts her fingers to find the letters From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed May 19 04:46:43 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:46:43 -0000 Subject: Ginevra - why is H/G obvious In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98802 > But I fully agree with Kitten on one point (I think I sniped it, > sorry): I don't attribute any importance to the Ginevra name either. > > Neri I think your analysis of the developing Harry/Ginny dynamic is, at the least, extremely thought-provoking. Of course, as so often happens here, there are multiple ways of interpreting the facts. And JKR has shown herself more than happy to set up what looks like a conventional story line and then gleefully blow it up. I'll admit the white foam/Aphrodite connection was a bit of a stretch--I was just having fun--but don't you think that an author who has created a werewolf named Remus Lupin, a prickly (if girly-voiced) sadist named Dolores Umbridge and a vicious, peculiar woman named Bellatrix LeStrange might *mean* something when, after withholding a character's full name for five books, she tells us that it is a form of Guinevere? What that meaning might be, I certainly can't say. But there has to be a reason that she bothered to choose that name, and then bothered to tell us on her site. Antosha From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed May 19 04:51:49 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:51:49 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Snip of Neri's post and quote from book 5 Pippin wrote: > Sirius could not possibly endanger only himself. Any danger to > him was a danger to Harry, a danger that Dumbledore could not > protect against, because in Harry reposes a power "more > wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence, than > the forces of nature [...the power that ] took you to save Sirius > tonight." Dumbledore knew that if Sirius were captured Harry > would go after him and he would *not* be able to prevent it, any > more than he had been able to stop Harry from going after the > Stone, or entering the Chamber, or following Ron into the > Shrieking Shack. > > Sirius was more heroic than we realize. By keeping himself safe, > much as he hated doing it, he protected Harry until Harry had > strength enough to survive the confrontation with Voldemort at > the MoM. > > Pippin I was just going to ask the question: "Why? Why did DD need to keep Sirius alive?" Thank you for the answer. This also gives a great deal of depth to the conversation between Fred, George and Sirius at Christmas right after their dad was attacked and they were angry they could not go to St. Mungo's. I don't have my book, but if memory serves Sirius says "You don't understand. There are things worth dying for, your father knows this and he will not thank you for putting the Order in jeopardy." I guess in Sirius' case, there are things worth wasting your life for, if all you can do is stay safe so someone else will too. Great post Pippin! Sue(hpfan) From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Wed May 19 04:55:44 2004 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:55:44 -0000 Subject: References to JKR's quotes on upcoming deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98804 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: Either Charlie or Bill (or maybe both), > and one of the twins. I've always felt the twins were in danger of an untimely demise. For some reason I can really see Fred biting the dust and George being left behind. This really saddens me (sob) as they are among my favourite characters, but they rely on each other so much (more like two halves of a whole than two separate people) that I can't help feeling JKR will get rid of one by the end of it all. Sienna *crosses fingers and hopes she's wrong* From erikal at magma.ca Wed May 19 06:13:17 2004 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 01:13:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: <09d801c43d68$610001a0$0d8b1a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 98805 Trixie wrote: She's never been jealous of any girls Harry has liked. She was jealous of Fleur when she kissed Ron. Actually, the issue of whether or not Hermione's irritation with Fleur is really due to Ron has been hotly debated amongst shippers for years. You see it's not all that clear cut. For one, Hermione displays irritation with Fleur _before_ Ron becomes infatuated with her: "Three of them [the Beauxbatons students] were still clutching scarves and shawls around their heads. 'It's not _that_ cold," said Hermione irritably. (GoF 220 UK) One of the Beauxbatons girls still clutching a muffler around her head gave what was unmistakeably a derisive laugh. 'No one's making you stay!" Hermione whispered, bristling at her. (221) It's only after that that the girl, who is indeed Fleur, comes to the table and is ogled by Ron. Hermione is initially irritated with him, but then also with Harry as he ogles Cho: "When you've both put your eyes back in," said Hermione briskly (223) She becomes annoyed with either of them for ogling girls. In light of this, I don't think it's a matter of jealously so much as it's related to her general disregard for looks and her insecurities regarding her own looks at this point in GoF. The fact that she was already irritated with Fleur surely did not help matters. The other instance of alleged jealously regarding Fleur is when she kisses the boys. However, though the statement that Hermione scowls is tacked on to the end of that section, the fact of the matter is that one can't with any certainty attribute her reaction solely to jealously over Ron since Harry was kissed as well. Best, Erika (Wolfraven) For friendly shipping discussion join us at The Great Debate http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGreatDebate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Wed May 19 05:27:38 2004 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 05:27:38 -0000 Subject: Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98806 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > > kitten says... > > I don't by the whole Ginny=Ginevra=Guinevere=Harry's girl thing... > > mainly because I think every ship has something of this nature. The > > Harry/Luna ship has the alchemy connection, the word Luna is an > > alchemical symbol also known as the bride, or the white queen" and > > Susan(as in Bones) means "lily" in Hebrew, and we don't have to > > change her name to make it work. So I just don't see it being a Clue > > for Harry/Ginny. These "Clues" are great fun but not proof of > > anything, Though I might be a little biased because I don't like > > Harry with Hermione, Harry with Ginny, or Harry with Luna ;) > > > > My biggest problem with Harry/ Ginny is that it seems to me that > > R/Hr shippers in their desperate desire to not have Harry being > > the "third wheel" immediately pairs him up with the first girl they > > can come up with, which is Ginny. You can look at all the R/H who > > also ship Harry with Ginny, and EVERY single R/Hr fanfic I have read > > always has a Harry and Ginny side dish to go along with it. I have > > yet to hear the "obvious evidence" that is in the books. All the > > evidence I have heard is of the nature of "Ginevra=Guinevere" type, > > things like "Ginny looks like Harry's mom" or " JKR is writing a > > classic boarding school story" I just don't buy these clues mainly > > because there isn't any thing in cannon to support them. > > > > It has been said that R/Hr and H/G are the most "obvious" ships in > > the books... I, being an R/Hr shipper, can understand the R/Hr being > > obvious, but did I miss something with Harry/Ginny? I just don't see > > it as "obvious" in the books. Can someone please explain this "Harry > > and Ginny is obvious" thing? > > > I really wasn't saying anything about shipping with this. I was just exploring the > implications of some new information: Ginny's full name. > > I have said I'm happy to think of Harry with any of the likely suspects--or even with some > one else, or even with no one, so long as JKR doesn't try to pretend that eros isn't at the > center of most teen relationships, one way or another. In other words, I'm not really a > shipper. Having said that, I think you're being quite hard on Ginny... er, Ginevra. She's one > of the more interesting secondary characters, and has grown more so as the series has > progressed. > > Antosha I agree with Kitten here (bet your shocked K ). I think JKR has threaded many symbolic images through her narrative, some of which appear to contradict each other when it comes to shipping. I primarily believe that Ginny's name as Ginevra (if taken with the Guinevere connection) simply points to the Weasley family as the future first-family of the WW. I think it foreshadows Arthur's appointment as the MoM. (Don't forget there's not just Ginevra but also Percy - maybe short for Percival? - and Arthur himself). I think this is also why there are *seven* kids, as opposed to another, less symbolic number. Also, there is another interesting connection to Ginny's full name - Leonardo Da Vinci's early painting 'Ginevra Da Benci'. Ginevra also means Juniper in Italian and this tree might be symbolically relevant also. I think in the end, there is very little else we can say about the Guinevere connection until more information becomes available. Sienna Who while a solid H/Hr shipper, isn't averse to H/G if it does end up happening in the end. From erikal at magma.ca Wed May 19 06:59:35 2004 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 01:59:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: <0a3b01c43d6e$d8c36f00$0d8b1a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 98807 Del wrote: >And finally, I'd like to remind >everyone that the girl *already has a >boyfriend* ! Viktor Krum is in love >with her, and we don't know that >she doesn't reciprocate that feeling. >We do know, however, that they >write to each other, which is the >closest to going out together that >they can do under the current >circumstances. And the final touch is >that she doesn't seem to talk about >Viktor to *anyone* : not the boys, >but not Ginny either it would seem. >Ginny knew Hermione was going to >the Yule Ball with Viktor, but she >never lets out any piece of >information about Viktor or Hermione's >relationship with him. Hermione >is keeping that part of her life >completely private. The best reason >she would do that is that it means A >LOT to her. I have to disagree. It's clear that Viktor has strong feelings for Hermione, but I don't believe she returns them. I think she's flattered, of course, to have been noticed by him, and she seems to find him pleasant company, but I think there are indications that she does not feel nearly as strongly as Viktor does. Two main bits of evidence here. First, she seems to spend an inordinate amount of her time with Viktor talking about Harry. Viktor says she "talks about [Harry] very often" (479 UK), enough that Viktor feels threatened by Harry and confronts him. The other thing is the scene after the second task. Though Harry doesn't hear this at the time, we find out later (chapter 27) that, after getting her out of the lake, Viktor invited her to Bulgaria and said that "he'd never felt the same way about anyone else" (446). So there's Viktor baring his heart and meanwhile what's Hermione doing? She's congratulating Harry: "Harry well done!" Hermione cried [...] Harry had the impression that Krum was drawing her attention back onto himself; perhaps to remind her that he has just rescued her from the lake, but Hermione brushed the beetle away impatiently and said, "You're well outside the time limit, though, Harry..." (438 UK) And then, after Harry is awarded points for "moral fibre," putting him in a tie with Viktor: "Fleur was clapping very hard, too, but Krum didn't look very happy at all. He attempted to engage Hermione in conversation again, but she was too busy cheering Harry to listen." (440) This to me suggests that she isn't feeling a whole lot for Viktor. He bares his heart and she's "too busy" to respond. As an H/Hr I feel that her intense focus on Harry is a clue to a developing ship. However, even if you don't accept this and, instead, believe her interest is strictly platonic, it remains that that platonic friendship took up far more attention that Viktor's advances. That doesn't bode well for a V/Hr ship IMO. As for Hermione not talking about her relationship, whatever its nature, how can you know she hasn't said anything to Ginny? There's no evidence as to whether she has or hasn't; either way it's pure speculation at this point. And even if she doesn't talk about it, why should one assume that it's because she harbours deep feelings for Viktor? Couldn't it just as easily be that she wants to have her privacy and doesn't want to be pestered about the whole thing? After all, Ron has pressed her so often about the status of her relationship with Krum that she could just want to make the point that she can do as she pleases and that it's her own business-- a sort of assertion of her independence in the face of Ron's jealous possessiveness. I really don't think the fact that she keeps it private is indicative of her reciprocating Viktor's feelings. Just my two knuts, Erika (Wolfraven) For friendly shipping discussion join us at The Great Debate http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGreatDebate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 06:09:40 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:09:40 -0000 Subject: Bellatrix as Richard III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98808 Mandy wrote: Bellatrix betraying > Harry Potter would be a triumph equal only to Richard III's seduction > of Lady Anne in Shakespeare! A challenge worthy of our Ms. > Lestrange. Carol: This is totally off-topic but I had to respond: Lady Anne Neville was Richard III's first cousin once removed and they grew up in the same household. There is evidence that they loved each other deeply and he was devastated by her death. Shakespeare's "history" plays are based on the kinds of biased sources that Eustace-Scrubb recently described, further distorted by a dramatic license that has Richard fighting in a battle that occurred when he was eight years old. My apologies to the List Elves (and to Mandy, who has every right to like Shakespeare's Richard as a literary character even though he bears no resemblance to the real Richard). Bellatrix, though she has no historical antecedents, can be enjoyed for similar reasons. Carol, hoping that the List Elves will be kind and not delete this post From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 06:42:35 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:42:35 -0000 Subject: Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98809 Lisa wrote: What happens if Fawkes is killed, can he die? and what will happen to ol' snake-face's wand? to Harry's wand? > bboy_mn: While Phoenix do die, they are immediately reborn, and in that sense, are immortal; they die, but they never cease to exist. It is conceivable that a Phoenix can truly die, but I don't think we have enough of Phoenix mythology from JKR herself to determine how that might happen. > Interesting thought you had about potential changes to Voldemort's and Harry's wands if Fawkes dies. The feathers are detached from the bird, so on one hand their fates should be separate, but on the other hand, the feathers do derive their magic from the living bird. Once again though, I don't think we have enough information of Rowling own personal brand of Phoenix mythology to know for sure. > Carol: We've seen Fawkes die twice (IIRC) only to be immediately reborn. I think that's the whole point of a Phoenix--he *can't* die--and it's also one reason why Voldemort's wand is appropriate for him, given his obsession with immortality. Its significance for Harry is more complicated and harder to assess accurately--I personally think that the Gryffindor colors are Fawkes's colors and that, like the sword and the Sorting Hat, he once belonged to Godric Gryffindor. In a sense, Dumbledore, the quintessential Gryffindor, is GG's spiritual heir and Fawkes is tied to that. If so, and if Harry is DD's spiritual heir (though he'll never be headmaster of Hogwarts), Fawkes is tied to him as well, not only attacking the Basilisk and healing his wounds twice, but creating through his donated feathers the Phoenix song in the battle in the graveyard, which brought hope to Harry's heart and (presumably) despair to Voldemort's. I don't know whether there are any other Phoenixes or any other wands with Phoenix feather cores. I'm guessing that they're rather rare and that most Ollivander-made wands (like Cedric's and both of Ron's) have unicorn hair cores, with possibly a fewer, but still a substantial number, having dragon heart string cores. Which brings me to the second point. I don't think that Fawkes or any other Phoenix can die, but if he did, I don't think it would make any difference to the wand's powers, any more than it would matter to Ron's wand if the unicorn that "donated" its tail-hair core died. And the dragons who so willingly sacrifice their heart strings to become wand cores are undoubtedly already dead, yet the heart strings are still "a powerful substance," in Mr. Ollivander's words. So the life or death of the donor animal clearly has no influence on the power of the wand. Carol From erikal at magma.ca Wed May 19 07:47:05 2004 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 02:47:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: <0ab601c43d75$7b9448c0$0d8b1a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 98810 Geoff said: >'Hermione's lip trembled and she >suddenly dashed at Harry and threw >her arms around him. "Hermione!" "Harry >- you're a great wizard you >know"'(PS "Through the Trapdoor" p.208 >UK edition) JR retorted: >This is not a scene where Hermione was >trying to find an >excuse to hug or kiss Harry. This is a >scene when they are >11 years old and Hermione is simply >showing emotion towards >her friend in a critical situation. I >don't think that >anyone would think of this as a shipping scene. Gina asked: >I do. How many times has she ever done >that to Ron compared to the >times she has done so with Harry? kitten replied: >At least once that I remember off hand >(so it's a tie).... >"Hermione flung her Arms around Ron's >neck and broke down >completely."page 292 in the American >paperback >This is during the scene when Ron tells >Hermione that she will not >have to work on buckbeak's appeal alone >anymore. >I can safely bet all my money in my >pocket against all the money in >your pocket that you probably won't >consider this a "shippy moment" >so...round and round we go ;) it's what >makes shipping so much fun! Round and round indeed! Let me mention a couple more hugs which were forgotten. After the first task when Harry and Ron make up: "Then, before either of them could stop her, she had given them both a hug" (314 UK) So there's a point for each ship, which I'd say cancels it out. Ship neutral then, okay? But what about this from OoP? "then there was a loud twittering noise, followed by an even louder shriek, and his vision was completely obscured by a large quantity of very bushy hair. Hermione had thrown herself on to him in a hug that nearly knocked him flat" (60 UK) Now that's a hug! ;) She doesn't even let go till halfway down the next page when Ron tells her to let Harry breathe. To sum up, I think the H/H side may have one more hug. Is it shippy? Well that's another matter. I would like to make it clear that in no way do I think Hermione tries to find _excuses_ to hug, kiss, or otherwise touch Harry (BTW she kisses Harry in GoF and Ron in OoP so I maintain that it's one all on that front). I do, however, think that there's a lot of physical contact between Harry and Hermione in the series, an increasing amount even. Just look at their interactions in OoP, particularly in some of the later scenes such as when they meet Grawp together. Their interactions in that scene are very physical. Harry catches her before she falls at one point (607 UK), he pulls her away from Grawp when he grabs for her (614); she clings to him (614). Here's a good bit: "One of the giant's massive hands reached down. Hermione let out a real scream, ran a few steps backwards and fell over. Devoid of a wand, Harry braced himself to punch, kick, bite or whatever or whatever else it took as the hand swooped towards him and knocked a snow-white centaur off his legs" (668) Harry's standing over Hermione with no wand, facing down a giant. He's very protective of her in this scene, much as he is at the DoM. Hermione keeps close to Harry (and not Ron) throughout the scene: she's standing next to or just behind Harry when they are facing the DEs, close enough that he can hear her moan in his ear and hear her intake of breath when he steps on her toes (692). When they run for it, Harry grabs Hermione's robes: "He seized a handful of Hermione's robes and dragged her forwards" (694 UK) Now think about this for a second. It's life and death here and who does Harry reach for? Not Ginny, not Ron. When it's comes down to a snap decision on who he should protect, a decision based on instinct rather than on rational thought, it's Hermione he reaches for. To me that says a lot about Hermione's importance to Harry. Either way, I think we do see quite a lot of physical interaction between these two. I know some R/Hrs argue that Hermione's contact with Harry only shows that she feels more comfortable with him since they are only platonic friends, whereas with Ron, she would not be comfortable due to her feelings for him. However, I think the pre-Quidditch kiss she gives Ron makes that a rather feeble argument. Either she has no feelings for either of them at this time or she is in fact comfotable kissing or otherwise touching someone she has feelings for. So is there physical contact between Harry and Hermione? Yes, clearly. Is it shippy? Well that all comes down to interpretation, doesn't it? As Kitten said, round and round we go ;) Best, Erika (Wolfraven) For friendly shipping discussion join us at The Great Debate http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGreatDebate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 19 06:54:43 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:54:43 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Tom's story truth or fiction? In-Reply-To: <20040518220232.12095.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, animal lover wrote: Mandy: > If indeed Miss Marvolio > was unwed and died in childbirth the child would have been wisked > strait to an orphage, no questions asked. If she was wed, and he > abandoned her it would have been easy for Tom Riddle Sr.'s family to > have arranged for baby Tom to have been packed away. It might seem > impossible to us now, but very easy 50 years ago. animallover_11: > > I don't think that we can assume that she died during child birth because she named him...there is no way 50 years ago she would have known she was having a boy. Also I believe that in the quote it is stated that Sr. left before Jr was born. If that is the case this also proves that mom must have lived long enough to name the child. Geoff: (1) A piece of canon: '"You live in a Muggle orphanage during the holidays, I believe?" said Dippet curiously. "yes, sir," said Riddle reddening slightly. "You are Muggle-born?" "Half-blood, sir," said Riddle, "Muggle fathr, witch mother." "And are both your parents - ?" "My mother died just after I was born, sir. they told me at the orphanage she lived just long enough to name me: Tom after my father, Marvolo after my grandfather."' (COS "The Very Secret Diary" p.182 UK edition) (2) Why the reference to Miss Marvolo? I assume that Marvolo was one of grandfather's first names. (3) There was a lot of discussion on this matter some months ago. The following messages (and their follow-ups etc.) might help. 83792, 83878, 86830. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 19 06:58:31 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:58:31 -0000 Subject: Ginevra In-Reply-To: <20040518211601.58132.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98812 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > TrixieCookie2326 at a... wrote: > I agree. Ginny is being set up as the ideal female lead for Harry. She's not as bookish as Hermione, but she's smart. She is clearly as fun as Fred and George. Sooner or later, Hermione and Ron will hook up. Then Harry will feel left out and he could hang with Ginny and Neville. Geoff: I must be being a bit thick or something (please don't bother to agree!!) but where does this reference fo Ginny as Ginevra come from? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 06:59:49 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:59:49 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98813 Eustace_Scrubb: I agree with those who think that JKR's notes about Theodore Nott increase the chances that he'll turn up in some role in one of the next two books. The real question is can one (or two or six) "Good Slytherins" effect the unity of the four houses, which the Sorting Hat alluded to in OoTP and which is behind the "Good Slytherin" speculation, if I'm not too mistaken. Unless the "Good Slytherin" is also a good leader of other Slytherins (and Theodore's a loner, not a leader, in the cut backstory). I also wonder exactly how the scene between Theodore and Draco would have worked, given that with very few exceptions (Chapter 1 of SS/PS, are there others that weren't at least part of Harry's dreams), the reader sees the story from Harry's viewpoint. It seems unlikely that Harry would have present for this meeting and doesn't seem to fit in with any of his dream patterns. Maybe that's why it was cut? Carol: I've always been intrigued by Theo (I'm sure he's the "stringy" Slytherin who saw the Thestral, probably because he saw his mother die) and I was glad to see that JKR has devoted some thought to him. Like Snape, he could go either way, but I'm clinging to my hope that he'll be the "good Slytherin," or even the student who changes houses, though as a loner, he probably doesn't care which house he's in. In any case, I agree with you that the POV is probably the reason she cut the scene. It just doesn't fit with the way most of the story is told. The other cut scene involving the Philosopher's Stone didn't seem quite as limited as the current book, either; the narrator was apparently able to tell what more than one character was thinking. I don't think JKR had hit her narrative stride yet--or found her narrative voice--when that scene was composed, and it's possible that she hadn't made a conscious decision to limit the story to Harry's POV, but once she became aware of it, she would have realized that there was no way to make the Draco/Theo scene fit the pattern. You asked whether there are any scenes other than SS/PS chapter one and the various dreams that is not from Harry's point of view. I can think of one full scene--Hermione lighting Snape's robe on fire in SS/PS--and a few snippets. There's a dream that Harry can't remember, but the narrator does, and a moment when Neville is lying awake, like Harry, but Harry doesn't know it. (Bits like that jump out at me because they're variations in the normal pattern.) Carol, hoping we'll see more of Theo in Book 6 From SnapesRaven at web.de Wed May 19 07:35:05 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:35:05 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do brooms fit in trunks. References: Message-ID: <001501c43d73$ce0ba6e0$0202a8c0@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 98814 Good morning! *rustles her feathers, still grumpy from sleep* I think he put a shrinking charm on the broom. I wondered myself how so many (Dudley-sized!) clothes, books (in every schoolyear there are new ones, and I imagine the 5th year books for example to be bigger than standard spell books from first year), and personal things fit into the trunk (if it's really the same size as depicted in the movies). Putting shrinking spells on the items inside the trunk allows the wizard to keep the outer appearance of a 'normal' (well, it depends...) trunk even in the Muggle world and simultaneously carry everything and anybody (see Crouch!Moody) with him. The last example might also apply to the case that an enlargement charm has been cast but I myself prefer the idea of shrinking things and changuing their size back and forth just for fun ; ) (play-raven) The more I think about it, however, I tend to think that an enlargement charm/spell is more logical because such trunks could be purchased in the wizarding world quite easily; I'm under the impression many first or second year students (especially those raised in Muggle households) would mess shrinking their belongings up. But, on the other hand, first years aren't normally allowed to own (or, at least, bring)brooms, right? SnapesRaven *wishing EVERYBODY a nice day!* ----- Original Message ----- From: Eustace_Scrubb To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 4:10 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do brooms fit in trunks. Neil wrote: > On numerous occasions JKR has mentioned that Harry put his broom in > > his trunk. Even if he has one of those old steamer trunks, I doubt a > broom would fit in it. How does he do it? > > Neil Eustace_Scrubb: Perhaps the trunk has a permanent expanding charm on it, like the Ministry of Magic cars that Arthur borrows (4th year?) to get everyone to King's Cross? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed May 19 07:24:01 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:24:01 -0000 Subject: Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > Geoff: > I must be being a bit thick or something (please don't bother to > agree!!) but where does this reference fo Ginny as Ginevra come from? Hickengruendler: >From JK Rowlings official site www.jkrowling.com . The site was completely redone, and, among other things, JKR has given background informations about the characters annd told us about some of the deleted scene. It really is a fun site and worth to be explored. Anyway, on this site she stated that Ginny's name is Ginevra. The information that Molly's maiden name is Prewett and that she is related to the Prewetts who were killed in the First War is also from this site. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 07:24:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:24:34 -0000 Subject: Controlling the Potterverse (Was Re: What JKR's up to) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98816 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > Jim Ferer wrote: > > What's going on is a struggle for ownership of the Potterverse with > > its own creator! You are right, it's HER series. > > > > Jim Ferer > > Eustace_Scrubb: > I think you're right. Which makes me wonder about the statement in > the FAQ-- > "I often get suggestions about what I ought to insert into Harry > Potter books, but these are my stories and mine alone; if anyone wants > to write about American wizards they are of course free to write their > own book!" > > There are probably would-be authors all over the world ready to take > her up on that, ummm, "invitation." > > Cheers, > > Eustace_Scrubb And yet, in a sense, the stories arent "hers alone," except that she'll write and publish them and get paid millions of pounds. But they're ours to interpret, and as long as we stay with the canon, we don't have to agree with her. Like all of us, she's limited by her own preferences and biases, which affect her own interpretation of her own works. (To take one example, the group moderators see things in Slytherin that she doesn't see and never intended, but that doesn't mean they're not really there. And I very much doubt that any two readers will ever see Snape in exactly the same way, much less the way she "intended" him to be seen, even after the books are all published.) As I've said before, literary critics would be out of a job if all that could be said about a book is in the book itself or the author's commentary on it. Whether JKR likes it or not, and clearly, she doesn't, her characters have taken on lives of their own outside her control, not just in fan fic but in serious (yet enjoyable) discussions like these. Look what happened to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, or rather, to Frankenstein's monster. It became part of the culture that gave it being and Mary Shelley had no more control over its destiny and its various manifestations than Frankenstein himself did. And look what's happened to LOTR. Would Tolkien recognize Faramir as he's depicted in the films? Or the "pointy-eared Elven princeling"? Or the computer-generated Golllum? Would he approve of the changes to Frodo, who actually tries to hand the One Ring to a Nazgul? How can Peter Jackson and his co-writers do that? How? Because LOTR has its own life, its own mythology, that others can shape to their liking. JKR doesn't "own" Harry Potter in anything except the legal ownership of the copyright, any more than Homer "owned" the characters in the Iliad. Just ask the Greek tragedians, who wrote their own versions of Agamemnon and his relatives. Or ask Brad Pitt whether Achilles is alive today and whether he must be exactly as Homer depicted him. No, I think JKR is wrong. What she's created is bigger than she ever anticipated. All that's in her control is whether the characters live or die, how Harry defeats Voldemort, what happens to them in the epilogue. The events are in her hands. But the characters are already ours. Carol, who does *not* mean that speculation and wishful thinking can take the place of canon-supported analysis or that any interpretation is as good as any other From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 08:09:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 08:09:34 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98817 Carol wrote: > > Just to add two more points to what SSS said: Snape told Dumbledore what had happened, explaining exactly why he had stopped the occlumency lessons, as we know from Dumbledore's long conversation with Harry at the end of OoP. If Dumbledore had given him a direct order at that point--you *will* resume occlumency lessons--Snape would have done so. But Dumbledore evidently agreed with Snape that the lessons weren't working and were perhaps doing more harm than good. > > > Carol, are you basing these conclusionhs on one sentence from > Dumbledore: "I am aware of it"? > > If not, could you provide more canon for : > > a. When Dumbledore learned of the end of Occlumency lessons? > I argued before that he could have learned about it after MoM battle. > > b. That if Dumbledore told Snape, he would have continued the lessons? > Carol: There's more to it than "I'm aware of it." DD goes on to explain that he forgot about how deep some wounds can be--how Snape never got over the humiliation he suffered at James's hands, etc., so we know that Snape told him the story in detail. You're right that I'm assuming that Snape told him about it right away, but the assumption is based on what we know of Snape and his past behavior. It appears from the Pensieve scene where Snape talks about his scar that he reports regularly to Dumbledore. It seems likely that he reported to Dumbledore after every lesson, while the events were fresh in his mind. We know, for example, that he told DD that Harry was dreaming about the corridor. Also, we have never seen Sanpe refuse to obey an order from Dumbledore, even when he resents it. He is Dumbledore's righthand man; Dumbledore trusts him, and he wants to maintain that trust. It would be to his great disadvantage if he stopped the occlumency lessons without telling Dumbledore and Dumbledore found out about it. And if Dumbledore had ordered him to resume the lessons, he would have done so--because that's how Snape acts. It's what Snape does. He didn't choose to give Harry occlumency lessons; he didn't even want to do it, as he made clear to Harry when he told him about it at Grimmauld Place. But he did it because Dumbledore told him to do it. He has to keep his job and he wants to keep his place in the Order. He has no choice in the matter. And besides, his loyalty, as far as we can tell, is to Dumbledore. Fortunately for Snape, Dumbledore did not judge him harshly for dropping the occlumency lessons. He understood his fury at the violation of his most private and painful memory, which Snape had specifically removed from his head so that Harry wouldn't see it. But it's also possible, and in my view logical, that Snape, who told Dumbledore that Harry was dreaming about the corridor, would have expressed the view that the lessons were doing more harm than good. He would certainly have stated that Harry wasn't cooperating and wasn't practicing. Based on all of that--canon and speculation together--I think it's a reasonable assumption that Snape told Dumbledore immediately and that it was a joint decision not to resume the lessons. Carol From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed May 19 09:24:14 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 05:24:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Victor Krum Message-ID: <98.b51f061.2ddc81be@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98818 In a message dated 5/19/2004 1:12:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: Fleur's mother is mentioned, but she doesn't seem to have a father, which again raises the question of whether there are male Veelas and if not, how a girl could be only part (presumably a quarter) Veela. ========================== Sherrie here: According to the myth on which they're based, veela are strictly female. They mate with mortal men, but the female offspring they produce will have veela characteristics. It's a Slavic mythos thing. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed May 19 09:29:31 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:29:31 -0000 Subject: Random facts about the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laurel Carmer" wrote: > Mimi: On her new website, JKR states, "Before her marriage Mrs. Weasley was > > Molly Prewett. As you will note from chapter one, Philosopher's > > Stone, she has lost close family members to Voldemort." > > (snip) I refuse to believe that JKR could commit a double > > flint on her website, by citing not only the wrong chapter, but the > > wrong book as well. Or could she? > (Laurel): > ****I think she just misspoke herself. They're not mentioned in the first chapter, but in the fourth -- when Hagrid is telling Harry about his parents. > Carolyn: Wasn't the only slip she made either. When she explained about the missing Weasley cousin, Mafalda, who got cut, she said that she was the daughter of a muggle second cousin who was a 'stockbroker.' I think it was 'accountant' in the book (or in my UK edition anyway). A very minor detail, but I was slightly surprised, as her website is not like the pressurised situation of an interview where mistakes are easy to make. Maybe its different in the US editions? From jferer at yahoo.com Wed May 19 09:32:37 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:32:37 -0000 Subject: Hermione Jealous? was Clues for SHIPS and the plot In-Reply-To: <09d801c43d68$610001a0$0d8b1a40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98820 Erika Wofraven: "Actually, the issue of whether or not Hermione's irritation with Fleur is really due to Ron has been hotly debated amongst shippers for years. You see it's not all that clear cut. For one, Hermione displays irritation with Fleur before Ron becomes infatuated with her..." "It's only after that that the girl, who is indeed Fleur, comes to the table and is ogled by Ron. Hermione is initially irritated with him, but then also with Harry as he ogles Cho: "When you've both put your eyes back in," said Hermione briskly (223) "She becomes annoyed with either of them for ogling girls. In light of this, I don't think it's a matter of jealously so much as it's related to her general disregard for looks and her insecurities regarding her own looks at this point in GoF. The fact that she was already irritated with Fleur surely did not help matters." Exactly. Hermione's a girl, she's never got that kind of attention, and her two best (male) friends are getting warmed over an imported over-pheromoned Barbie and one of the best looking girls in school. What's a girl got to do with these two louts, save the world? I feel like knocking their heads together myself. Jim Ferer From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 11:21:55 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Random facts about the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040519112155.10584.qmail@web20027.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98821 > Carolyn: > Wasn't the only slip she made either. When she > explained about the > missing Weasley cousin, Mafalda, who got cut, she > said that she was > the daughter of a muggle second cousin who was a > 'stockbroker.' I > think it was 'accountant' in the book (or in my UK > edition anyway). snip > Maybe its different in the US > editions? > Nope, we got "accountant" too. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Wed May 19 12:12:14 2004 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:12:14 -0000 Subject: Ships: Meta-thinking Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98822 Ok...coming out of lurkdom just to throw another log on the ship fire (ok...did that make any sense?). Anyways...I've been doing a little meta-thinking on the ship debates and I noticed one thing. Hermione is based on Rowling when she was younger. Ron is based on her friend Sean. Now I've seen people using the "her parents met on a train and so did H/G so they will get together argument." Well how about the Sean and J.K. Rowling didn't end up together so neither will Hermione and Ron? Discuss. Oh, and just for clairfication...I believe that yes R/Hr and H/G are the most obvious ships...but I can't help being a H/Hr simply because I relate best the Hr and absolutely adore H. Serena (who is now convinced the J.K. Rowling is lurking on every HP message board she posts on and is probably very amused at everything Serena's written) From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 19 13:39:09 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 13:39:09 -0000 Subject: Prophecy fullfilment in SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98823 snip Carol wrote: > Certainly Snape, assuming that he's familiar with the Prophecy, > doesn't think it means that Harry is invulnerable to any kind of > illness or injury other than an AK from Voldemort, or he wouldn't have > thought it was necessary to counter Quirrell's curse at the Quidditch > match. Why try to save Harry from a fall (or from a werewolf in PoA or > the DEs in OoP), if Harry can't die except by Voldemort's hand? (IMO, > if Harry were bitten by Lupin in werewolf mode, he'd be in as bad a > plight as anyone else, and if Bella or Lucius Malfoy had AK'd him, > he'd be dead.) > > Opinions, anyone? > Potioncat: Oh good, you asked for opinions. Opinions, I have lots of! I think the prophecy is talking about two different events. The one with the power to vanquish approaches...(Is that close enough?) He has the power to, doesn't mean he will....and if something happened to him...too bad. I think the "either, neither, other" part is referring to a paticular episode still to come. And may have been enhanced by events at the graveyard with that potionmaking session. And during that yet to come episode, one must kill the other because at that point, they can't both live (wording changed a little to make my view clear) In other words, I think something big will be happening and it will be a case for Harry, not of showing up and killing LV, but of fighting for his life and killing LV in the process. I'm not sure if being the one with the power to vanquish LV means LV can only be killed by him....could LV trip on his robe while coming down the steps and break his neck?... At any rate, I'm sure there's going to be something that throws us all for a loop...there always is with prophecies... So, yes, I think Harry could be harmed/killed by someone else or by LV via means we havent' considered. And keep in mind, although it was Wormtail who said the AK curse, DD still considers it LV who killed Cedric. Potioncat From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed May 19 14:03:47 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:03:47 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98824 > Geoff: > Mandy, You've got your time frame wrong. Tom was about 15-16 at the > time of COS and that was 1942 (50 years prior to Harry's second year > which was 1992/3). So he was born about 1926/7. > > He might have gone to the countryside in the Second World War as a > teenager. We had a thread on Stockwell Orphanage and its evacuation > from London. It was part of a thread on Vauxhall Road and the diary > and began around message 86880. Mandy here: Yep your right. Sorry folks. :%) From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed May 19 14:08:33 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:08:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98825 "Hermione acts jealous about Cho as well. So that's a draw." 1. This was attributed to me, I never said this. JR wrote: "I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you list some specific instances where Hermione acts jealous about Cho because I don't remember her acting that way. I do remember Hermione helping Harry is his relationship with Cho." I agree with JR on this. She's never been jealous of any girls Harry has liked. She was jealous of Fleur when she kissed Ron. Trixie Gina: Fleur kissed them BOTH, Ron just made a bigger deal about her. Hermione could just have been mad that anyone thought she was pretty for fear Harry would like her - or Krum for that matter. I agree that Krum may be more of a key player and I totally agree that Hermione (like any girl) that hangs out with the guys, does not want ANY other girl stepping into her territory. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed May 19 14:12:51 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:12:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do brooms fit in trunks. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98826 On numerous occasions JKR has mentioned that Harry put his broom in his trunk. Even if he has one of those old steamer trunks, I doubt a broom would fit in it. How does he do it? Neil Gina: Silly as it sounds I would associate this with Mary Poppins' bag - where she pull the mirror, etc. out. ITS MAGIC!!! LOL. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 19 14:19:32 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:19:32 -0000 Subject: Ginevra SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionekitten9" wrote: >I, being an R/Hr shipper, can understand the R/Hr being obvious, but did I miss something with Harry/Ginny? I just don't see it as "obvious" in the books. Can someone please explain this "Harry and Ginny is obvious" thing?< Pippin: I think the Ginny/Ginevra shipping clue is not to Guinevere specifically but to the Matter of England, the whole body of English chivalric romances of which La Morte Darthur is only the best known. In these stories the hero's romantic destiny is generally with the first eligible woman that he sees. The readers were familiar with the convention of course, and expected the author to provide, and the couple to overcome, huge obstacles to their union. ::Pippin trots out one of her favorite hobby horses:: The Harry Potter novels resemble in plot and structure the child exile romances which are the oldest recorded stories in the Matter of England. In these romances, such as "King Horn" and "Havelock the Dane", the hero is a boy, deprived of his family and inheritance by the collusion of an exterior foe and a traitor. He is given to cruel relatives or strangers and is kept ignorant of his true rank and worth, while the kingdom he should have inherited falls into disarray. The hero must survive periodic encounters with the foe who murdered his parents and is now attempting to destroy him, and who fails only because he insists on trying to kill the hero in absurdly elaborate ways. However, the stories mostly concern the hero's attempts to achieve status and deal with social situations. He is taken under the guidance of a paternal figure who raises him to manhood. While the hero struggles to discover the true nature of those around him, the good characters immediately perceive his worth. The hero does not woo his future bride. It is she who pursues him, often as one of many other young women. Eventually, of course, the hero defeats the villain, exposes the traitor, recovers his throne, restores order to the kingdom, unites with the heroine, and they live happily ever after. King Horn http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/hornint.htm Havelock the Dane http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/daneint.htm Pippin From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed May 19 14:27:35 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:27:35 -0000 Subject: Do brooms fit in trunks. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98828 I't's not clear who wrote this: > On numerous occasions JKR has mentioned that Harry put his broom in his trunk. Even if he has one of those old steamer trunks, I doubt a broom would fit in it. How does he do it? > Gina wrote: > Silly as it sounds I would associate this with Mary Poppins' bag - > where she pull the mirror, etc. out. ITS MAGIC!!! LOL. Mandy here: I like the Mary Poppins reference. But Magic aside, the standard witches broom, (like the one I have in my kitchen, and was used in the first Quiditch scene in the PS/SS movie) could fit into the kind of trunks that were often taken to boarding schools. They are huge, the trunks that is. Think of those beautiful trunks that passengers on ocean liners used to take on board, they could turn them up on their end and use them a short closet, and chest-of-draws. But then again, the Quidditch brooms do seem to be longer and thicker that the standard broom, so magic must come into play. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed May 19 14:35:14 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:35:14 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98829 > JR wrote: > "I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you list some specific > instances where Hermione acts jealous about Cho because I don't >remember her acting that way. I do remember Hermione helping Harry >is his relationship with Cho." I agree with JR on this. She's never >been jealous of any girls Harry has liked. She was jealous of Fleur >when she kissed Ron. > > Crobo wrote: > Giving in to impulse to fan the fire I'll just add this note. I've > been listening to the audio of GoF and Fleur kissed Harry, then > Ron. After the kissing's all done we're told Hermione was > irritated. At Fleur in general? Because she kissed Harry? Ron? Mandy here: Because Fleur had the audacity to kiss both boys in front of her. Ron and Harry are Hermione's boys, and no matter who she is loves, she feels a certain amount of ownership and responsibility toward both of them. Just as Ron feels about Harry and Hermione, and Harry feels about Ron and Hermione. From burgess at cynjut.net Wed May 19 14:42:11 2004 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:42:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4605 In-Reply-To: <1084936911.8336.8846.m14@yahoogroups.com> References: <1084936911.8336.8846.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <61868.143.250.2.101.1084977731.squirrel@www2.neonramp.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98830 Subject: Re: Weddings in the WW -Tom Jr. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "muscatel1988" wrote: > > After reading all the interesting posts that flowed from this one, > it occurs to me that we don't know anything at all about how wizards > and witches get married, other than that they do. > > There must be, by assumption, some sort of ceremony, which would, in > the WW, be legally binding. But the point is that the Muggle > authorities would have no record of such a union, so that if a > Muggle and a witch/wizard were to be married only by the WW > ceremony, a child born to them would, for Muggle legal purposes, be > illegitimate. > In OOTP - the bass player for wierd sisters is getting married (in the paper when the trio finds out that someone has ratted Sirius out). Sounds like marriage is marriage. I would have to assume that the muggle marriage license is probably used for muggles marrying wizards (especially when the muggle finds out that their new spouse is a wizard). Dave From squeakinby at tds.net Wed May 19 15:36:37 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:36:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginevra SHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40AB7F05.1040005@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98831 pippin_999 wrote: "In these stories the hero's romantic destiny is generally with the first eligible woman that he sees. The readers were familiar with the convention of course, and expected the author to provide, and the couple to overcome, huge obstacles to their union. " Given the times, and that it's about 800 years since these conventions, I find it unlikely Ginny or Harry would not experience other relationships/friendships before they come together as mature individuals. Was that a "crush" or was it Ginny's instinct recognizing Harry as her soulmate? He didn't recognize her? One can hardly depend on a guy of 11 or 12 to be alert to such things ;-) ! Thank you, Pippin, for your astute commentary and valuable literary perspective. And the links. Much appreciated. Jem From burgess at cynjut.net Wed May 19 14:42:46 2004 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:42:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Weddings in the WW -Tom Jr. Message-ID: <62336.143.250.2.101.1084977766.squirrel@www2.neonramp.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98832 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "muscatel1988" wrote: > > After reading all the interesting posts that flowed from this one, > it occurs to me that we don't know anything at all about how wizards > and witches get married, other than that they do. > > There must be, by assumption, some sort of ceremony, which would, in > the WW, be legally binding. But the point is that the Muggle > authorities would have no record of such a union, so that if a > Muggle and a witch/wizard were to be married only by the WW > ceremony, a child born to them would, for Muggle legal purposes, be > illegitimate. > In OOTP - the bass player for wierd sisters is getting married (in the paper when the trio finds out that someone has ratted Sirius out). Sounds like marriage is marriage. I would have to assume that the muggle marriage license is probably used for muggles marrying wizards (especially when the muggle finds out that their new spouse is a wizard). Dave From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed May 19 14:46:28 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:46:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98833 * JR wrote: > "I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you list some specific > instances where Hermione acts jealous about Cho because I don't >remember her acting that way. I do remember Hermione helping Harry >is his relationship with Cho." I agree with JR on this. She's never >been jealous of any girls Harry has liked. She was jealous of Fleur >when she kissed Ron. > > Crobo wrote: > Giving in to impulse to fan the fire I'll just add this note. I've > been listening to the audio of GoF and Fleur kissed Harry, then > Ron. After the kissing's all done we're told Hermione was > irritated. At Fleur in general? Because she kissed Harry? Ron? Mandy here: Because Fleur had the audacity to kiss both boys in front of her. Ron and Harry are Hermione's boys, and no matter who she is loves, she feels a certain amount of ownership and responsibility toward both of them. Just as Ron feels about Harry and Hermione, and Harry feels about Ron and Hermione. * Gina: * Okay, no promises, but I think this will be my final point. (applause from JR - j/k :-) ) * * I have always thought that it would play out like this - Ron does love Hermione and when at some point * (book 6 maybe) he tells her how he feels she says something to the effect of, "Ron, I had no idea and I'm sorry, but I care for someone else" * * Ron gets mad thinking it is Vicktor and is furious when it turns out being Harry -he has already led up to breaking point with being jealous of his friend. * * Now, the only reason I now think it may not happen is do to the H/R separation in GoF - would JKR do that same scenario again? Maybe-maybe not. She could be done or that could be setting us up for something bigger. I do not know. * * I will end asking everyone a question (especially ladies -sorry guys).. * * Picture yourself back at 15 and say you are somewhere scary like a haunted house and you are with a guy that is "just a friend" and a guy that you are in love with (THAT DOES NOT KNOW IT) - who would you be most likely to grab hold of when you are scared or run to when you are afraid? If he KNEW how she felt it would be a different ball game because it would be embarrassing to her if he knew why she was doing this, but he doesn't. So what I am saying is that Hermione acts with Harry like any 15 year old girl that has realized she is in love with her best friend and though he has not realized it yet he feels the same. I would not think this but the more the books go on the more physical H/Hr get. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed May 19 14:53:00 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:53:00 -0000 Subject: Bellatrix as Richard III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98834 > Carol wrote: > This is totally off-topic but I had to respond: Lady Anne Neville was Richard III's first cousin once removed and they grew up in the same household. There is evidence that they loved each other deeply and he was devastated by her death. Shakespeare's "history" plays are based on the kinds of biased sources that Eustace-Scrubb recently described, further distorted by a dramatic license that has Richard fighting in a battle that occurred when he was eight years old. > My apologies to the List Elves (and to Mandy, who has every right to > like Shakespeare's Richard as a literary character even though he > bears no resemblance to the real Richard). Bellatrix, though she has > no historical antecedents, can be enjoyed for similar reasons. Mandy here: Back on topic: and no apology necessary. It's why I made sure Shakespeare's name was in my post, as the example I used did not happen in real life but was a literary creation. But for those who may not know the story I do want to expand a little. Just for fun. In Shakespeare, (not in real life) Richard III performs the massive achievement of seducing the beautiful Lady Anne while she is weeping over the coffin of her dead husband, who Richard had killed. Between the curses and insults she throws at Richard he manages to calm her down and convince her, to not only give him a second chance, but even love him and consider him as her future husband. And she does! My idea is how fantastic would it be for Bellatrix to seduce Neville in to betraying Harry! Little Neville who's parents she tortured, and who hates her about as deeply as any boy could, to succumb to her dark whisperings and fall. Cheers Mandy. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed May 19 15:16:51 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 15:16:51 -0000 Subject: Prophecy fullfilment in PS/SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98835 Carol: > My point, or rather, my question is this: We know that Harry is the > only one who can destroy Voldemort, but do we know that Voldemort is > the only person or thing that can kill Harry? I don't see anything in > the infamously ambiguous Prophecy to that effect. "Either must die at > the hand of the other and neither can live while the other survives" > only means, IMO, that if Voldemort is to be destroyed, Harry must > destroy him (in which case Harry will "live" rather than merely > surviving as he does now), but if Voldemort were to destroy Harry, the > only one who can vanquish him, he would become immortal and > invincible. It doesn't mean that Harry can't die (theoretically) in > some other way before the confrontation takes place. Or at least I > don't see anything to that effect in the Prophecy. Jen: When LV was immortal, it was true that Harry was the only one with the 'power to vanquish him', because the killing curse wouldn't affect him. Now I wonder, though--can someone else kill him in his mortal state? Because I agree with Carol that Harry can die by other means, so if "either must die at the hand of the other" leaves wiggle room for Harry to die on other ways, I wouldn't think LV would be exempt now, either. Dumbledore seems to believe Harry can die in other ways, hence the intervention at the MOM. When Dumbledore didn't seek to kill LV at the MOM himself, it was presumably because he believes only Harry has the power to do that. But what if he's wrong, what if LV reclaiming his mortal body changes things? From pt4ever at yahoo.com Wed May 19 15:27:25 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 15:27:25 -0000 Subject: Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98836 According to Babyzone.com Baby Name finder (http://www.babyzone.com/babynames/babynamedisplay.asp?ID=21986), Ginevra is Italian and means "from the race of women." Perhaps Arthur and Molly (*cough*JKR*cough*) wanted a name to reflect the fact that she's the first Weasley girl born in several generations. Incidentally, do you think the fact that Ginny's the first Weasley girl born in several generations will become plot point? I'm inclined to think not - if it was, I'd imagine JKR would have mentioned it by now. However, there were a lot of new plot points developed in book 5, so it's possible. Thoughts? - JoAnna From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 15:55:35 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 08:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sharing names - Tom's story truth or fiction? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040519155535.21059.qmail@web13809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98837 Geoff: (3) There was a lot of discussion on this matter some months ago. The following messages (and their follow-ups etc.) might help. 83792, 83878, 86830. animallover_11: I must say that the posts you suggested are very interesting. But they touch on his stay in the orphanage. My main question deals with his story. I am really starting to wonder if it is all a lie. Harry and Tom are very simliar. We are continuely reminded of this throughout all of the stories. The only difference (I think it is safe to assume from DD) is the choices they make. Harry believed his parents to be killed in the car crash...Tom believes his father to have left him. I am just not conviced that this is what happened. Based on what we have in the books so far I am sure that JKR is going to through it to us that Tom was not abandoned by his father at all. But that Sr was abandoned by Jrs mom. (not sure if she is Mrs Riddle or something else). JKR seems to have away of mixing it up and hitting you with something that is different then first thought. Granted at this point we do not have much to go on just the similarities between Harry and Tom and the current story we have been told. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed May 19 16:13:27 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 16:13:27 -0000 Subject: Prophecy fullfilment in SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Oh good, you asked for opinions. Opinions, I have lots of! > I think the prophecy is talking about two different events. The one > with the power to vanquish approaches...(Is that close enough?) He > has the power to, doesn't mean he will....and if something happened > to him...too bad. > > I think the "either, neither, other" part is referring to a paticular > episode still to come. And may have been enhanced by events at the > graveyard with that potionmaking session. And during that yet to come > episode, one must kill the other because at that point, they > can't both live (wording changed a little to make my view clear) I agree. It may be significant that DD uses the word 'vanquish' when describing what happened to Voldy at Godric's Hollow ; "Voldemort had been vanquished hours before, yet his supporters..." OoP Chap 37. And JKR is pretty punctilious about her vocabulary. So it's quite possible that the vanquishing happened long since. And vanquish is defined as to triumph, to defeat. It does not usually mean 'to kill'. Harry had the power to vanquish, does he have the power to kill, as the Prophecy requires and as DD says he must? If so, then how? Voldy seems AK proof and damn near immortal. I doubt if beaming love and compassion at him would work, either. Could be some fascinating plot twists developing as Harry struggles with this one. Kneasy From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 16:29:43 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prophecy fullfilment in SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040519162943.86316.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98839 Kneasy: Harry had the power to vanquish, does he have the power to kill, as the Prophecy requires and as DD says he must? Could be some fascinating plot twists developing as Harry struggles with this one. Kneasy animallover_11 We know that part of the prophecy was overheard by one of LV's groupies. But what about the rest of it? Is it possible that DD knowing Tom/LV so well "exagerated" the prophecy. The only thing that LV seems to really fear is death, the prophecy is about his death. He seems to have spent many years chasing after Harry. This has prevented him taking over the WW. It seems that his fear of death out weighs his desire for power. This could be DD's way of "controlling" LV and his actions. As long as DD keeps Harry "protected" LV is focusing his attention and efforts on maing sure that Harry does not fulfill the prophecy. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed May 19 16:49:02 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 16:49:02 -0000 Subject: Ginevra SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98840 > > Pippin: > ::Pippin trots out one of her favorite hobby horses:: > The Harry Potter novels resemble in plot and structure the child > exile romances which are the oldest recorded stories in the > Matter of England. In these romances, such as "King Horn" and > "Havelock the Dane", the hero is a boy, deprived of his family and > inheritance by the collusion of an exterior foe and a traitor. He is > given to cruel relatives or strangers and is kept ignorant of his > true rank and worth, while the kingdom he should have inherited > falls into disarray. > > The hero must survive periodic encounters with the foe who > murdered his parents and is now attempting to destroy him, and > who fails only because he insists on trying to kill the hero in > absurdly elaborate ways. However, the stories mostly concern > the hero's attempts to achieve status and deal with social > situations. He is taken under the guidance of a paternal figure > who raises him to manhood. While the hero struggles to > discover the true nature of those around him, the good > characters immediately perceive his worth. > > The hero does not woo his future bride. It is she who pursues > him, often as one of many other young women. Eventually, of > course, the hero defeats the villain, exposes the traitor, recovers > his throne, restores order to the kingdom, unites with the > heroine, and they live happily ever after. > Antosha: Wow. I really should have read more of the pre-Chaucer stuff in college. There certainly do seem to be some parallels here. Some of them are explicable as archetypes, in the Jung/ Joseph Campbell sense--they work out patterns that are intrinsic to the human mind. But some of them certainly seem to be quite specific. Thanks for sharing, Pippin. From mkeller01 at alltel.net Wed May 19 16:53:56 2004 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 16:53:56 -0000 Subject: References to JKR's quotes on upcoming deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > > JKR also said that one has to be ruthless in writing children's > books. She said this in reference to her husband, who was in their > ktichen when JKR came in crying after having killed off Sirius, and > advised her that maybe she shouldn't kill this character since it > upset her. I figure that if she really means it about being > ruthless, then a bunch of other characters will die, too. And, I > mean main characters, not just someone who's been mentioned in > passing. Why else do you think there are so many Weasleys??? It'll > be easy to knock a few off. Either Charlie or Bill (or maybe both), > and one of the twins. > > Marianne Yeah, I see what you mean....but,there are a couple of quotes giving me pause: The Press Democrat Santa Rosa, CA 30 October 1999 http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099- pressdem-lauer.html She wouldn't say much about the next book but she did reveal that one of the characters will die before the seven-volume series ends. "I won't say which one, but I will say one of them dies." and.... BBC Special Christmas 2001 http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/1201-bbc- staff.htm Death is the most important theme throughout all seven books. "More people are going to die. One death is going to be horrible to write. IT HAS TO BE." Sounds to me as if Sirius was perhaps the BIG DEATH, and that she doesn't expect the rest of the deaths to have much of an impact on us (obscure students, family of the students, DE's.) I don't know. It's difficult to reconcile these quotes with the ominous warnings of impending deaths that she's been hinting at for a few years now. Until I read these quotes, I was expecting a blood bath (with Bill getting my top vote as first Weasley to be offed.) Toad (perfectly happy to have the Weasleys make it through intact) From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed May 19 17:41:54 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:41:54 -0000 Subject: ... upcoming deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98842 "jksunflower2002" wrote: > Death is the most important theme throughout all seven books. "More > people are going to die. One death is going to horrible to write. > IT HAS TO BE." > > Sounds to me as if Sirius was perhaps the BIG DEATH, and that she > doesn't expect the rest of the deaths to have much of an impact on > us (obscure students, family of the students, DE's.) I don't know. > It's difficult to reconcile these quotes with the ominous warnings > of impending deaths that she's been hinting at for a few years now. > Until I read these quotes, I was expecting a blood bath (with Bill > getting my top vote as first Weasley to be offed.) -------------------------- I disagree that Sirius was the 'horrible' death. It wasn't horrible at all. He_fell_thru_a_veil! You blinked and you missed it! It was there one minute and gone the next. His loss was one of hope and promise for a future that Harry had wanted--not one of loss for friendship/kinship that Harry relied upon. (He was getting there but, really, they never had time to get close--really close.) 'Horrible' to me means it's going to hurt--badly. Sirius's death sucked, yeah, sure but I didn't cry. I wasn't torn up about it and, as far as watching someone gets killed goes, seeing Sirius fail back is pretty danm tame. Now 'horrible' will either be something gruesome or someone very close (Ron, Hermione *are* fair game.) or both. Dumbledore is likely to bite it before the end--if he grows close to Harry in the wake of Sirius' death, then this could be 'horrible'. The other Weasley's (beside Ron) would likely have to be killed in a somewaht more brutal fashion in front if HArry for those to be 'horrible'. Heck, I think even McGonagall's off-page death would be more 'horrible' than what we saw with Sirius--at least she has a very huge day-to-day impact on Harry's life at school. Her death could even be more anomic than Hagrid's. Arya (who thinks there are many characters we've only been led to love so that we will miss them when they die) From jmmears at comcast.net Wed May 19 17:44:05 2004 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:44:05 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > And finally, I'd like to remind everyone that the girl *already has a > boyfriend* ! Viktor Krum is in love with her, and we don't know that > she doesn't reciprocate that feeling. We do know, however, that they > write to each other, which is the closest to going out together that > they can do under the current circumstances. And the final touch is > that she doesn't seem to talk about Viktor to *anyone* : not the boys, > but not Ginny either it would seem. Ginny knew Hermione was going to > the Yule Ball with Viktor, but she never lets out any piece of > information about Viktor or Hermione's relationship with him. Hermione > is keeping that part of her life completely private. The best reason > she would do that is that it means A LOT to her. Oh boy! Finally a chance to trot out my favorite OOP theory . Of course keeping her correspondance with Victor private means A LOT to her, but not because of their personal relationship or anything shippy. She has a far more important reason. Victor Krum is a member of the Order and Hermione is the one entrusted with being his contact. Way back in July I wrote a post (#66827) where I laid the theory out in some detail but unfortunately the replies fell back into the (apparently) far more entertaining shipping discussion :(. I've been waiting to re-introduce it ever since. Here's what I said at the time: If you recall Dumbledore's speech at the end of GoF, he emphasised the need for cooperation among those who oppose Voldemort and that, "Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." Previous to this statement, Krum is said to look "wary, almost frightened, as though her expected Dumbledore to say something harsh." The next time we seem him is when HRH are outside waiting for the carriages to take them to the Hogwarts express. He approaches them, speaks disdainfully of Karkaroff, and then asks Hermione with a private "vord." Of course, Ron is seized with jealous curiosity, and as readers we are led to believe that the private conversation has to do with the romantic feelings Krum has for Hermione. We're left wondering about what was said when Hermione comes back looking impassive. Now in OoP, we know that Hermione is writing a very long letter to Krum when she and Ron are sitting in the common room and Harry returns from kissing Cho. When Ron finds out that she is writing Krum, he reacts jealously again, but Hermione seems more absorbed in writing her letter than she is in either Harry's interlude with Cho, or Ron's feelings on the matter. On the first read, I assumed that either Hermione is still somewhat romantically involved with Victor, or that she was writing him platonically, but letting Ron conclude that they were still involved for her own reasons ;-). However, now that I've started reading my UK version the following statement from George really jumped out at me.: "'Charlie's in the Order, too,' said George, 'but he's still in Romaina. Dumbledore wants as many foreign wizards brought in as possible, so Charile's trying to make contacts on his days off.'" OoP p67 UK I really think that Krum is now part of the Order, and that Hermione has been asked by Dumbledore to keep him up to date. After all, based on their interaction in GoF and Rita Skeeter's articles, no one would suspect that Hermione has been writing to him for any reason beyond the obvious personal one, and Krum is no longer a student at Durmstrang where, according to Draco, they actually "teach" the dark arts. He's old eonough to be a full member,since he's of age. *That's* what I think they were really talking about at the end of GoF, and that's why her face was impassive. Hermione is excellent at keeping secrets, Harry has very little interest in her interaction with Krum anyway, and Ron's reaction is a great way to cover up her true purpose in maintaining the correspondence (and I don't really think she minds tweaking Ron a little in the bargain). Now the reasonable question to ask is "how can Hermione be writing and receiving letters from Krum concerning the Order without having them intercepted by Umbridge?" My answer is *I*Don't*Know . However, I *do* know that she does have a way of getting around Umbridge which she doesn't seem to be sharing with Harry. If you recall, in "The Beetle at Bay" Chapter 25, OOP, just after HRH read about the DEs breakout of Azkaban, Hermione does something rather odd. "...then Hermione pulled the newspaper back toward her, closed it, glared for a moment at the pictures of the ten escaped Death Eaters on the front, then leapt to her feet. "Where are you going?" said Ron, startled. "To send a letter," said Hermione, swinging her bag onto her shoulder. "It... well, I don't know whether...but it's worth trying...and I'm the only one who can ..." We find out later that she's writing to Rita Skeeter to set up the Valentines Day interview with Harry. Obviously, Umbridge would never have allowed *that* to happen if she had found out about it in advance, so when Hermione says, "... and I'm the only one who can..." she's refering to the fact that she's the only one who can communicate with people outside Hogwarts without Umbridge intercepting the letter. >Del, who would have thought Viktor was just a plot device in GoF if > only Hermione wasn't still writing to him in OoP. Oh, he's a plot device all right. Just not so much a *shipping* plot device ;-). And as far as Harry and Hermione being soulmates, it's sufficient to say that I think JKR has written them to be the most romantically incompatible pair since Trelawney and Lupin. I can't imagine why anyone thinks that they are "soulmates". But that's a topic for another post ;-). Jo S., who is determined to go on record with this theory again so she can gloat when it turns out that's she was right :D! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 19 17:51:18 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:51:18 -0000 Subject: Do brooms fit in trunks - It's Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > On numerous occasions JKR has mentioned that Harry put his broom in > his trunk. Even if he has one of those old steamer trunks, I doubt > a broom would fit in it. How does he do it? > > Neil > > > Gina: > Silly as it sounds I would associate this with Mary Poppins' bag - > where she pull the mirror, etc. out. > > ITS MAGIC!!! LOL. > > Gina bboy_mn: Well, undoubtedly, the answer is MAGIC. But I think the magic has to be on the trunk, and not as someone suggested, Shrinking Charms on the contents. Since the students are not allowed to perform magic outside of school they would not be allowed to shrink and enlarge their possessions. That means that the trunk must have a spell that makes the interior automatically adjust to accommodate whatever is put into it. Similar to Mr. Weasley car which is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside, and similar to the seventh lock on Moody's trunk which contains an entire room, the standard Hogwarts trunk, which is unlikely to be more than four feet long, would likely have a permanent expansion charm on it so as the number of books and general possession of a student increase, the trunk's interior would grow to accommodate it all. Key points- -it has to be the trunk that is enchanted. -it has to be automatic. -it has to be permanent. -it has to affect only the interior of the trunk. A a side note, much like Moody's trunk, the Hogwarts student trunks must also have a 'Weight' charm on them. Once they reach a weight limit, the functional weight of the trunk never increases beyond that pre-set amount. Think about the real world weight of Moody's Seven Lock Trunk as an example. It contains, amoung other things, and entire room; that can't be light. So, not only are time and space malleable in the wizard world, but mass (or weight) is also a 'relative' commodity. But then... that's just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From garybec at yahoo.com Wed May 19 17:18:08 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:18:08 -0000 Subject: Fudge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98845 I believe I found a clue on JKR's web site, reinforcing what she said in her last chat in March. In the RUMORS portion, there was an ad at the bottom from the QUIBBLER with the headline, "Minister of Magic, Corniellous Fudge Ran out of Town". This ad has not been repeated like the rest of the ads which is what makes me think that it is true. I know that she confirmed that there would be a new MOM but the way this is written, it sounds like it will be a fun bit of the book. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed May 19 18:23:28 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 13:23:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98846 Oh boy! Finally a chance to trot out my favorite OOP theory . Of course keeping her correspondance with Victor private means A LOT to her, but not because of their personal relationship or anything shippy. She has a far more important reason. Victor Krum is a member of the Order and Hermione is the one entrusted with being his contact. Jo S., who is determined to go on record with this theory again so she can gloat when it turns out that's she was right :D! Gina: Great theory. And wasn't there a discussion awhile ago about WHY Hermione was even at 12 Grimmauld Place? Maybe this is the reason! Gina - who loves speculating with you guys even when we don't agree! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rtb333 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 18:25:42 2004 From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:25:42 -0000 Subject: Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98847 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "garybec" wrote: > I believe I found a clue on JKR's web site, reinforcing what she > said in her last chat in March. In the RUMORS portion, there was an > ad at the bottom from the QUIBBLER with the headline, "Minister of > Magic, Corniellous Fudge Ran out of Town". This ad has not been > repeated like the rest of the ads which is what makes me think that > it is true. I know that she confirmed that there would be a new MOM > but the way this is written, it sounds like it will be a fun bit of > the book. Rob Now: I caught that too. But to tell you the truth, I am disappointed that this is the only spoiler she gave us. It was pretty obvious that Fudge would be thrown from office given the events at the ministry. On the other hand, I wouldn't want her to give up too much. Rob (who wants to know what is going to happen. no I don't. yes I do. no I don't ....???) From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 19 18:31:54 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:31:54 -0000 Subject: Weddings in the WW -Tom Jr. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98848 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: bboy_mn: > In the beginning, in the absents of clear law regarding marriage, > marriages were simply recorded at the local church. > > Point; as long as there are neutral witnesses, and an unbias third > part to officiate, you have a wedding. > > Second, Tom Riddle Sr being a muggle and assuming a marriage took > place, would have logically arranged, at least, a simple muggle > wedding. It could have been as simple as recording the marriage at > the local church, courthouse, magistrate, or tax office. Geoff: In the UK, if a marriage is not conducted at a place of worship, it is usually at a Registry Office, by the Registrar of Births, Marriages and Deaths or his/her representative. Nowadays, some other places are also licensed but, certainly in Tom Riddle Snr's day, it would be the church or the registry office. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 19 18:43:30 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:43:30 -0000 Subject: Random facts about the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <26c49db26c5166.26c516626c49db@hawaii.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jolene M Birum wrote: > From: Mimi > > Ok, I just reread chapter one of Sorcerer's Stone (I have the > > American edition), and can't see where anything is that I could > > note indicating that Molly Prewett Weasley lost close family members to > > Voldemort. > > Hagrid mentions "the McKinnons, the Bones, and the Prewetts" in chapter > four of SS, on page 56. --Jolene Geoff: The reference for UK editions is (PS "The Keeper of the Keys" p.45 UK edition) From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed May 19 18:54:03 2004 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 11:54:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JRK is right! Give Voldemort respect.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1055550767.20040519115403@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98850 Mandy wrote: > Most of us on this site refer to Voldemort as LV, Dumbledore as DD, > and J.K. Rowling as JRK, for the sake of short hand. These > shortening of names to initials, imo, are more acceptable because > they don't take away from the power of the name itself. Of course > JKR might disagree. Well in my case, the problem is that in my own mind "V" = "Vangelis" and "LV" = "Little Voice", so I usually end up "roughing it" and write out the full name. :) As for "JKR" -- On her site she says, "Jo to you", so I intend to hereafter go ahead and call her "Jo"! :) -- Dave From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 18:58:04 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 11:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040519185804.16864.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98851 garybec wrote: an ad at the bottom from the QUIBBLER with the headline, "Minister of Magic, Corniellous Fudge Ran out of Town". I think the key to this is that he "Ran out of Town". This makes his exit sound more by choice like he was scared of the results of his lack of actions. There has been some discussion on what side Fudge is on.....this could lead to proving that he was working with LV along. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 19 18:59:03 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:59:03 -0000 Subject: Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > Hickengruendler: > > From JK Rowlings official site www.jkrowling.com . The site was > completely redone, and, among other things, JKR has given background > informations about the characters annd told us about some of the > deleted scene. It really is a fun site and worth to be explored. > Anyway, on this site she stated that Ginny's name is Ginevra. The > information that Molly's maiden name is Prewett and that she is > related to the Prewetts who were killed in the First War is also from > this site. Geoff: Thank you Jim lad. I have visited the new site but I haven't looked into every nook and cranny and hadn't found that snippet of information about Ginny. Mark you, I prefer Ginny. Her full name is - well - quaint. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 19 19:24:28 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 19:24:28 -0000 Subject: Fudge In-Reply-To: <20040519185804.16864.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98853 Animallover_11 wrote: > I think the key to this is that he "Ran out of Town". This makes his exit sound more by choice like he was scared of the results of his lack of actions. There has been some discussion on what side Fudge is on.....this could lead to proving that he was working with LV along. > Potioncat: In American English a headline that read "Fudge Ran Out of Town" would mean that the townspeople ran him out, or more likely here, he was forced out of office. Potioncat From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed May 19 19:28:53 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 19:28:53 -0000 Subject: website and canon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98854 Is JKR's new website considered canon, given that the other books, chocolate frog cards, etc., are? Julie From LadySawall at aol.com Wed May 19 19:51:51 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (Jo Ann) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 19:51:51 -0000 Subject: A Rather Disturbing Snape Idea Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98855 Had a rather morbid thought last night. (Okay, a REALLY morbid thought. You have been warned.) :) An awful lot of speculating has been done as to why Snape behaves the way he does, why he hates Harry so much, whether he's really a good guy or a bad guy, and when JKR plans to clue us in on it all. At the risk of being stoned by an angry mob...what if she doesn't? In all honesty, I wouldn't defend this as a serious prediction, if only because I don't want to see it happen. And I'm not sure it's the kind of topic JKR would want to touch on, though I'm not sure it's one she would refuse to, either. But if she decided to be particularly evil, or just wanted to shock everyone with a twist ending to his story...once the life debt is paid, the spying done, the Order of Merlin awarded...everything all wound up neat and tidy, no unfinished business to attend...I could see the guy found dead at his desk one morning, with empty bottles of Old Ogden's and some painless, lethal poison next to him. What makes me think of this? It's just the way certain facts play together. Particularly JKR's statement that she's "stunned" that someone saw a redemptive pattern to the character. I'm also thinking of DD's remark, that some wounds are too deep for healing, and of the kind of life that Snape seems to lead--no matter how you slice him, he looks like one miserable sod! But it would be so ironic if his major issue with Harry is that he can't end his own life until he has saved Harry's. And I can just imagine someone asking DD at the funeral, "So was he really one of us?" and DD saying sadly, "I believe he was--but I've never been completely sure, and now we'll never know." Wouldn't that be the ultimate Snapish insult--taking his motives to the grave with him, just to spite everyone? Even us? :) [Raises tiny little umbrella] Let the hurling of boulders commence! But no anvils, please. Jo Ann From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 19 20:00:57 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 20:00:57 -0000 Subject: A Rather Disturbing Snape Idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98856 JoAnne wrote: > > But if she decided to be particularly evil, or just wanted to shock > everyone with a twist ending to his story...once the life debt is > paid, the spying done, the Order of Merlin awarded...everything all > wound up neat and tidy, no unfinished business to attend...I could > see the guy found dead at his desk one morning, with empty bottles of > Old Ogden's and some painless, lethal poison next to him. > Potioncat: Well, given that Jo said she won't take on teen pregnancy or drugs, I doubt she'll take on suicide. ESE!Potioncat who just pictured Harry finding Snape, as described above, just in time! From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 20:14:09 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 13:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040519201409.71944.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98857 Potioncat: In American English a headline that read "Fudge Ran Out of Town" would mean that the townspeople ran him out, or more likely here, he was forced out of office. Potioncat animallover_11 Either way, him leaving in the dark of night or being removed by force....why? Is it because he did nothing for fear or because he did nothing so he could help LV? Whether the WW decides he should have known from the beginning because of DD and Harry or because he is a DE as well could play a very important twist to the story. If it turns out that he is a DE I think there will be some very interesting plot situations. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed May 19 20:14:50 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 20:14:50 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98858 mcmaxslb wrote: > The Order of the Pheonix (American version) > > Just as he had decided not to say anything, Hermione took matters out > of his hands. > > 'Is it Cho?' she asked in a businesslike way. 'Did she corner you > after the meeting?' > > Numbly surprised, Harry nodded. Ron sniggered, breaking off when > Hermione caught his eye. > > 'So - er - what did she want?' she asked in a mock casual voice. Del notes : In the British edition, it's *Ron* who asks that question. mcmaxslb wrote: > 'She -' Harry began, rather hoarsely; he cleared his throat and tried > again. 'She - er -' > > 'Did you kiss?' asked Hermione briskly. > > > Sounds jealous to me. Del replies : It doesn't to me, especially if you consider that she barely stopped writing her letter and goes back to it right away. *Ron* is the one who makes a big deal out of The Kiss, not Hermione. In fact, I find her so incredibly detached but not too unnaturally so, that it seems obvious to me that she's absolutely not jealous. That scene was the last proof I needed to convince me that Hermione isn't interested in Harry. I guess that's just another proof that the whole SHIPping debate depends entirely on everyone's very personal inner workings. It seems absolutely *obvious* to me in this scene that Hermione is NOT jealous, I just can't imagine any jealous girl reacting the way she does, but I guess that could be only because *I* would never ever react in any way close to that way if *I* were jealous. Del, who finds the whole SHIPping debate so incredibly hopeless as to be deliciously entertaining :-) From rowen_lm at yahoo.com Wed May 19 20:16:27 2004 From: rowen_lm at yahoo.com (Liz Muir) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 20:16:27 -0000 Subject: website and canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98859 Julie wrote: > Is JKR's new website considered canon, given that the other books, > chocolate frog cards, etc., are? I would definitely consider JKR's website canon. It states on the main page welcome message that everything on the site was written by JKR herself. I think that's the definition of canon. It's why the chocolate frog cards (which JKR had final approval over, IIRC) are considered canon whereas the movies (which JKR has little control over) are not. Rowen From probono at rapidnet.com Wed May 19 20:26:52 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 20:26:52 -0000 Subject: Book 7 Title? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98860 Has there been any speculation about the blurb of information JK put on her site referring to the title of book 7? She wrote: Never give up, you lot, do you? I suppose you think that one of these days I'll crack under the pressure and let slip that book seven is going to be called - wow, I nearly gave it away then. It's just that I had the image of leaky cauldrons zooming at my head from out of nowhere upon reading that passage. Not that I think book seven would be called Harry Potter and the Leaky Cauldron or Harry Potter and the Pressure Cooker of Doom or Harry Potter and That Old Cracked Pot or anything, it's just that I feel she intentially planted some clues in there. Darnit, if we just knew where to cook, I mean look. probono From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed May 19 20:29:18 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 20:29:18 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98861 > > "I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you list some specific > > instances where Hermione acts jealous about Cho because I don't > >remember her acting that way. I do remember Hermione helping Harry > >is his relationship with Cho." I agree with JR on this. She's never > >been jealous of any girls Harry has liked. She was jealous of Fleur > >when she kissed Ron. Crobo wrote: > > Giving in to impulse to fan the fire I'll just add this note. I've > > been listening to the audio of GoF and Fleur kissed Harry, then > > Ron. After the kissing's all done we're told Hermione was > > irritated. At Fleur in general? Because she kissed Harry? Ron? Mandy wrote : > Because Fleur had the audacity to kiss both boys in front of her. > Ron and Harry are Hermione's boys, and no matter who she is loves, > she feels a certain amount of ownership and responsibility toward > both of them. Just as Ron feels about Harry and Hermione, and Harry > feels about Ron and Hermione. Del isn't so sure : I'm not sure if this is the scene you're discussing, but here's what I noticed : GoF, hardback British edition, pg 628 : "'Arry!" He looked around. Fleur Delacour was hurrying up the stone steps into the castle. (snip unrelated stuff) "We will see each uzzer again, I 'ope", said Fleur, as she reached him, holding out her hand. "I am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to improve my Eenglish." "It's very good already," said Ron, in a strangled sort of voice. Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled. "Goodbye, 'Arry," said Fleur, turning to go. "It 'az been a pleasure meeting you !" I'm afraid Hermione scowled only after Ron displayed emotion towards Fleur and got a smile from her in return. She didn't react in any way when Fleur was interacting with Harry. Del, who wonders why nobody taught Fleur about the English "h"... From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed May 19 20:47:59 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 20:47:59 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: <09d801c43d68$610001a0$0d8b1a40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98862 Erika (Wolfraven) wrote: > The other instance of alleged jealously regarding Fleur is when she > kisses the boys. However, though the statement that Hermione scowls > is tacked on to the end of that section, the fact of the matter is > that one can't with any certainty attribute her reaction solely to > jealously over Ron since Harry was kissed as well. Del is confused : It's the second time tonight that I come accross that "Fleur kisses the boys" scene. But I just can't remember it ! Can you point me to it ? The only one I can see coming close to it is the scene at the end of GoF, when Fleur is wishing good bye to the Trio. She shakes Harry's hand while saying that she's hoping to get a job in England to improve her English. Ron then says in a strangled voice that her English is very good, Fleur smiles at him, and Hermione scowls. There are no kisses, Fleur is described as holding her hand out only to Harry (though we don't even know if he takes it), and we see no reaction whatsoever from Hermione as long as Fleur is interacting with Harry. Del From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Wed May 19 20:57:51 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 20:57:51 -0000 Subject: Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "garybec" wrote: > I believe I found a clue on JKR's web site, reinforcing what she > said in her last chat in March. In the RUMORS portion, there was an > ad at the bottom from the QUIBBLER with the headline, "Minister of > Magic, Corniellous Fudge Ran out of Town". This ad has not been > repeated like the rest of the ads which is what makes me think that > it is true. AmanitaMuscaria writes: The ad has been repeated, some ads come up more often than others. The wording on the one I see is "Fudge Forced to Flee Minister of Magic Chased from Office" I suspect it is confirmation of the hints in OoTP, but it IS in the Quibbler, so who knows? Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From CoyotesChild at charter.net Wed May 19 21:09:18 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 16:09:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] website and canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c43de5$92dfc480$6601a8c0@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 98864 >Julie >Is JKR's new website considered canon, given that the other books, >chocolate frog cards, etc., are? Iggy here: I would think that it could be considered canon, considering that the website is specifically hers, and the words come from JKR herself rather than second hand like some other sites. Iggy McSnurd From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed May 19 21:16:09 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:16:09 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98865 Jo S. (serenadust) wrote: > Oh boy! Finally a chance to trot out my favorite OOP theory . > Of course keeping her correspondance with Victor private means A LOT > to her, but not because of their personal relationship or anything > shippy. She has a far more important reason. > > Victor Krum is a member of the Order and Hermione is the one > entrusted with being his contact. Del replies : Yes, I've wondered about that too, though I don't think I ever wrote a post about it. But you've obviously given that theory a lot more thought than I ever did :-) You even very nicely answered my main question while I was reading your earlier post : how *could* she write to Viktor ? She would have a secret way... That's very possible, especially since the girl has already proven herself to be trustworthy in PoA over the Time-Turner matter. You could very well be right you know ? Jo S. wrote : > And as far as Harry and Hermione being soulmates, it's sufficient to > say that I think JKR has written them to be the most romantically > incompatible pair since Trelawney and Lupin. I can't imagine why > anyone thinks that they are "soulmates". Del replies : Ah well :-) I don't see them as real soulmates. I see Hermione as being very attuned to Harry's needs and inner workings, though she still does make big mistakes sometimes. But I just don't see Harry as being any good for Hermione. He gives her a purpose, but that's all. He doesn't care about her emotional needs, he doesn't bother trying to figure out how she works inside. The way I see it, she could become his soulmate, but he will never be hers. And I want the girl to be happy, understood and truly supported by her companion, which is why I can't envision a H/H SHIP. Sorry guys :-) ! Serena wrote : > Jo S., who is determined to go on record with this theory again so > she can gloat when it turns out that's she was right :D! Del replies : In case we forget to give you due credit, do send me a private email, and I'll write the elogious post you'll deserve :-) ! Del From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 19 21:17:50 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:17:50 -0000 Subject: Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Animallover_11 wrote: > > I think the key to this is that he "Ran out of Town". This makes > his exit sound more by choice like he was scared of the results of > his lack of actions. There has been some discussion on what side > Fudge is on.....this could lead to proving that he was working with > LV along. > > > > > Potioncat: > In American English a headline that read "Fudge Ran Out of Town" > would mean that the townspeople ran him out, or more likely here, he > was forced out of office. > Potioncat Geoff: This idea crossed my mind but shouldn't that have been "Fudge /run/ out of town" rather than "ran"? Is this just a typo? From cubs9911 at aol.com Wed May 19 21:18:45 2004 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:18:45 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98867 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Erika (Wolfraven) wrote: > > The other instance of alleged jealously regarding Fleur is when she > > kisses the boys. However, though the statement that Hermione scowls > > is tacked on to the end of that section, the fact of the matter is > > that one can't with any certainty attribute her reaction solely to > > jealously over Ron since Harry was kissed as well. > > > Del is confused : > It's the second time tonight that I come accross that "Fleur kisses > the boys" scene. But I just can't remember it ! Can you point me to it ? > > The only one I can see coming close to it is the scene at the end of > GoF, when Fleur is wishing good bye to the Trio. She shakes Harry's > hand while saying that she's hoping to get a job in England to improve JR: I don't have my books with me so I can not give you an exact page number but I remember that when they come out of the lake after the second task, Fleur gives Harry a kiss for saving her sister than she says something to Ron like "Oh and you helped too." And she gives Ron a kiss. And then it says something about Hermione scowling. So the scene in question is at the end of the second task. > her English. Ron then says in a strangled voice that her English is > very good, Fleur smiles at him, and Hermione scowls. There are no > kisses, Fleur is described as holding her hand out only to Harry > (though we don't even know if he takes it), and we see no reaction > whatsoever from Hermione as long as Fleur is interacting with Harry. > > Del From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 19 21:31:35 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:31:35 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Del replies : > In case we forget to give you due credit, do send me a private email, > and I'll write the elogious post you'll deserve :-) ! Geoff (scratching head slightly puzzled): Are you meaning that you will write an elegy? First, according to my dictionary, that is a mournful poem, and, second, if so, the word you want is elegaic...... Should matters of the heart between our HP stalwarts be the cause of mournfulness? From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 19 21:38:51 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:38:51 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" > wrote: Del: > > It's the second time tonight that I come accross that "Fleur kisses > > the boys" scene. But I just can't remember it ! Can you point me to it ? > > JR: I don't have my books with me so I can not give you an exact page > number but I remember that when they come out of the lake after the > second task, Fleur gives Harry a kiss for saving her sister than she > says something to Ron like "Oh and you helped too." And she gives Ron > a kiss. And then it says something about Hermione scowling. So the > scene in question is at the end of the second task. Geoff: You are quite right. 'Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his face burn and wouldn't have been surprised if steam was coming out of his ears again), then said to Ron "And you too - you 'elped -" "Yeah" said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, "yeah, a bit -" Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simple furious....' (GOF "The Second Task" p.439 UK edition) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed May 19 21:50:59 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:50:59 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98870 I, Del, asked : > > It's the second time tonight that I come accross that "Fleur kisses > > the boys" scene. But I just can't remember it ! Can you point me to > > it ? JR answered : > I don't have my books with me so I can not give you an exact page > number but I remember that when they come out of the lake after the > second task, Fleur gives Harry a kiss for saving her sister than she > says something to Ron like "Oh and you helped too." And she gives > Ron a kiss. And then it says something about Hermione scowling. So > the scene in question is at the end of the second task. Del replies : Ah, thank you !! So let's see : GoF, hardback British edition, page 439 : "Look after Gabrielle," she told her, and then she turned to Harry. "You saved 'er," she said breathlessly. "Even though she was not your 'ostage." "Yeah," said Harry, who was now heartily wishing he'd left all three girls tied to the statue. Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his face burn and wouldn't have been surprised if steam was coming out of his ears again), then said to Ron, "And you, too, - you 'elped-" "Yeah," said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, "yeah, a bit-" Fleur swooped down on him, too, and kissed him. Hermuione looked simply furious, but just then etc... Huh, well, I'm not sure we can use that scene as evidence for either SHIP. I would agree with those who say that Hermione is simply jealous of *Fleur*, not because of either boys. And by the way, I'd like to add that I'm surprised that Hermione wouldn't have learned during her holidays in France that kissing on the cheeks doesn't mean much for French people. Fleur wasn't doing anything more than saying thank you in the best way she knows. When I'm offered a gift, I say thank you and kiss the person who gave the present to me, whoever it might be. It doesn't mean anything. I'm in fact surprised that oh-so-smart Hermione didn't see it coming :-) Fleur *had* to go and kiss Harry, she was supposed to in order to be polite, so she would probably have done it even if she hadn't felt true gratitude towards Harry. Del, who loves it when Hermione lets her emotions rule over her brain once in a while :-) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed May 19 21:45:44 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:45:44 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98871 serenadust wrote: Oh boy! Finally a chance to trot out my favorite OOP theory . Of course keeping her correspondance with Victor private means A LOT to her, but not because of their personal relationship or anything shippy. She has a far more important reason. Victor Krum is a member of the Order and Hermione is the one entrusted with being his contact. Neri: This is a nice theory, and I definitely see Krum in the Order. It makes a lot of sense. JKR said in a chat something like "we'll see Krum again but not soon", which I interpret as Book 7. Right on time for the final showdown. It doesn't seem logical, however, to have Hermione as Krum's contact woman. She is as far from him as HQ in 12GP, or DD's office. If DD wanted to send Krum orders it doesn't make much sense to find Hermione and ask her to write him. And if Hermione were entrusted with a way to send safe mail in and out of Hogwarts, why not entrusting it to Harry also, and why didn't Hermione suggested it when Harry needed to talk with Sirius and Lupin? She was very afraid of that crazy plan to use Umbridge's fireplace with the twins' diversion. Why didn't she say to Harry "if you just put it in the letter, I'll find a safe way to smuggle it out"? The fact that Hermione wrote to Rita does not mean that she had a safe way to send mail. Rita in the Three Broomsticks clearly didn't know why Hermione wanted to meet her. This means that all Hermione had to write her would be something like "will you be at the Three Broomsticks this Saturday? If I won't see you there I'll be very upset, and you know what is likely to happen when I'm upset" or something innocent of that sort. If Harry managed to get past Umbridge's screen this way, Hermione surely can. But I certainly won't be surprised if Krum is in the Order and Hermione is the only one from the Trio who knows about it. It won't be the first time (or the second) she keeps her little secrets from the others. She was writing a very long letter to Krum that night. What was she writing him that took such a long scroll??? (now I'm coming out like Ron). Perhaps she was detailing everything that was happening in Hogwarts, so it will look innocent but Krum will be able to read the dire situation between the lines. Neri From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed May 19 21:59:33 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:59:33 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98872 I, Del, wrote : > > In case we forget to give you due credit, do send me a private > > email, and I'll write the elogious post you'll deserve :-) ! Geoff (scratching head slightly puzzled) replied : > Are you meaning that you will write an elegy? First, according to my > dictionary, that is a mournful poem, and, second, if so, the word you > want is elegaic...... > > Should matters of the heart between our HP stalwarts be the cause of > mournfulness? Del lols and replies : Nah :-) ! This is just another case of my English getting sloppy. I too need to eemprove my Eenglish, you see :-) I just took the French word "elogieux" and turned it into an English word which obviously doesn't exist :-) So what would it be in English ? I meant "the post that will give you high praises" or something like that. Oh and by the way, we don't know that someday the matters of the heart of the Trio won't be cause for mourning. I sure hope it won't happen, but it might. Del, who shivers at the idea that one of the Trio might die after two of them have finally gotten together... From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed May 19 22:20:14 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:20:14 -0000 Subject: References to JKR's quotes on upcoming deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98873 Toad wrote: re the big death > > The Press Democrat Santa Rosa, CA > 30 October 1999 > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099- > pressdem-lauer.html > > She wouldn't say much about the next book but she did reveal that > one of the characters will die before the seven-volume series > ends. "I won't say which one, but I will say one of them dies." > > and.... > > BBC Special > Christmas 2001 > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/1201- bbc- > staff.htm > > Death is the most important theme throughout all seven books. "More > people are going to die. One death is going to be horrible to write. > IT HAS TO BE." > > Sounds to me as if Sirius was perhaps the BIG DEATH, and that she > doesn't expect the rest of the deaths to have much of an impact on > us (obscure students, family of the students, DE's.) I don't know. Marianne: I don't have a problem with your reasoning. JKR's OoP interviews sure seemed to imply that it was horrible for her to write Sirius' death. I guess I'd find it somewhat unbelievable if none of the other major or relatively major characters died. Or if only important DEs died. Toad: > It's difficult to reconcile these quotes with the ominous warnings > of impending deaths that she's been hinting at for a few years now. > Until I read these quotes, I was expecting a blood bath (with Bill > getting my top vote as first Weasley to be offed.) Marianne: I hope, in a twisted sort of way, that she won't be content to simply off minor characters. It would be too much like action movies where the body count is astronomical, but the deaths don't really mean anything because the audience has no connection with the nameless, faceless victims. It cheapens death and makes it too cartoonish. So, if the body count is limited to Emmeline Vance and Hestia Jones and the like, then I think the impact will be too minimal. I'd rather that very few people died that have a large body count of characters we don't really know. > Toad (perfectly happy to have the Weasleys make it through intact) Marianne: agreed From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 19 22:21:05 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:21:05 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98874 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" wrote: > I really think that Krum is now part of the Order, and that Hermione has been asked by Dumbledore to keep him up to date. After all, based on their interaction in GoF and Rita Skeeter's articles, no one would suspect that Hermione has been writing to him for any reason beyond the obvious personal one, and Krum is no longer a student at Durmstrang where, according to Draco, they actually "teach" the dark arts. He's old enough to be a fullmember,since he's of age. < Erm, but Hermione isn't. I think that Dumbledore would dislike using an underage witch as a conduit for order business. Also, if she were Krum's contact, she herself would have to have a controller, whom she could have consulted about Sirius's supposed captivity. It's a cute theory, but Dumbledore doesn't need Hermione to write to Viktor. Vicky's an international Quidditch star--anybody could correspond with him. I have wondered though, if Hermione, who talks about Harry all the time, is as careful as she should be in those letters. Someone else might be reading them. Jo S. > However, I *do* know that she does have a way of getting around Umbridge which she doesn't seem to be sharing with Harry. If you recall, in "The Beetle at Bay" Chapter 25, OOP, just after HRH read about the DEs breakout of Azkaban, Hermione does something rather odd. > > "...then Hermione pulled the newspaper back toward her, closed it, glared for a moment at the pictures of the ten escaped Death Eaters on the front, then leapt to her feet. > > "Where are you going?" said Ron, startled. > "To send a letter," said Hermione, swinging her bag onto her > shoulder. "It... well, I don't know whether...but it's worth > trying...and I'm the only one who can ..." > Pippin: Hermione is the only one who can get Rita to write Harry's story because "I've told her she's to keep her quill to herself for a whole year." --GoF ch 37. Without Hermione's permission, Rita would have had to refuse the assignment. Pippin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed May 19 22:31:31 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:31:31 -0000 Subject: Ginevra - why is H/G obvious In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98875 Antosha wrote: I'll admit the white foam/Aphrodite connection was a bit of a stretch- -I was just having fun--but don't you think that an author who has created a werewolf named Remus Lupin, a prickly (if girly-voiced) sadist named Dolores Umbridge and a vicious, peculiar woman named Bellatrix LeStrange might *mean* something when, after withholding a character's full name for five books, she tells us that it is a form of Guinevere? What that meaning might be, I certainly can't say. But there has to be a reason that she bothered to choose that name, and then bothered to tell us on her site. Neri: This reminds me that when I read PoA the first time, I immediately realized that both of Remus Lupin's names have a connection with wolves, but I still didn't suspect he was a werewolf, not even after Snape's assignment. Pretty dense of me, isn't it? So I agree with Kitten (up-thread) - these name clues are good mainly in hindsight. If Ginny will end up with Harry (something I'm maybe 85% sure of today, certainly not 100%) then we'll all say: sure, a girl going by the name Guinevere, disguised as simple-Ginny-best-friend's-little- sister, how could she end up as anything but the hero's girl? We'd probably say similar things if it is Hermione (this name also has respected mythological origins) or Luna or Susan Bones. And is Dumbledore really a bumblebee animagus? Could be, but I doubt it. Neri From erikal at magma.ca Wed May 19 23:38:24 2004 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:38:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: <018801c43dfa$61074040$4ea31a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 98876 Del wrote: >So let's see : GoF, hardback British >edition, page 439 : >"Look after Gabrielle," she told her, >and then she turned to Harry. >"You saved 'er," she said breathlessly. >"Even though she was not your >'ostage." >"Yeah," said Harry, who was now >heartily wishing he'd left all three >girls tied to the statue. >Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on >each cheek (he felt his face >burn and wouldn't have been surprised >if steam was coming out of his >ears again), then said to Ron, "And >you, too, - you 'elped-" >"Yeah," said Ron, looking extremely >hopeful, "yeah, a bit-" >Fleur swooped down on him, too, and >kissed him. Hermuione looked >simply furious, but just then etc... >Huh, well, I'm not sure we can use that >scene as evidence for either >SHIP. I would agree with those who say >that Hermione is simply jealous >of *Fleur*, not because of either boys. >And by the way, I'd like to >add that I'm surprised that Hermione >wouldn't have learned during her >holidays in France that kissing on the >cheeks doesn't mean much for >French people. Hermione may have known that, but the thing is, Fleur's kisses, however innocent in intention, do have an effect on the boys. Harry blushes furiously and Ron is hankering to get the same treatment ("Ron, looking extremely hopeful"). So she could be jealous about either one, but more likely she's just annoyed with them for acting-- well for acting like most fourteen year old boys, and probably also with Fleur for her ability to manipulate them so easily. So basically I'm agreeing that this isn't a very shippy moment. in another message (# 98861) Del wrote: >GoF, hardback British edition, pg 628 : >"'Arry!" >He looked around. Fleur Delacour was hurrying up the stone steps into >the castle. >(snip unrelated stuff) >"We will see each uzzer again, I 'ope", said Fleur, as she reached >him, holding out her hand. "I am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to improve >my Eenglish." >"It's very good already," said Ron, in a strangled sort of voice. >Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled. >"Goodbye, 'Arry," said Fleur, turning to go. "It 'az been a pleasure >meeting you !" >I'm afraid Hermione scowled only after Ron displayed emotion towards >Fleur and got a smile from her in return. She didn't react in any way >when Fleur was interacting with Harry. Actually, I think we see the same dynamic in this scene as in the scene by the lake. Here Fleur addressed Harry specifically rather than Ron, so it isn't impossible that Hermione was annoyed with her for that. However, despite being an H/Hr even I think that's a bit of a stretch, mainly due to the semicolon separating the statement that Fleur smiled and Hermione scowled. A semicolon is meant to link separate clauses, implying that there is a connection between them. It _could_ have shippy implications; I'm not denying that it's possible. However, I really think it's a continuation of Hermione's annoyance with Fleur in general. Fleur is able to elicit a reaction from boys in general with ease, while Hermione, in contrast, has had the unflattering experience on Ron's amazed announcement that she's a girl. Can you blame her for being annoyed with Fleur? After all, as I pointed out earlier on the thread, we see Hermione become annoyed with Fleur _before_ Ron meets her, and we see her become annoyed with _both_ Harry and Ron for their ogling of girls. Ron's "strangled sort of voice" is a continuation of that behaviour and thus Hermione's annoyance does not require that she have any romantic interest in Ron. I don't think Hermione's dislike of Fleur is as clear cut as Ron's reaction towards Krum, which is almost certainly due to jealously of Krum for his involvement with Hermione. With Hermione I just don't think there's anything shippy about it. Best, Erika (Wolfraven) For friendly shipping discussion join us at The Great Debate http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGreatDebate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed May 19 22:51:11 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:51:11 -0000 Subject: Victor Krum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98877 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says There aren't male veelas. JKR didn't make them up (ever see the ballet "Giselle"?), they're basic Eastern European succubus-type wild girls. In the Bulgarian version, they don't make good wives or mothers, but the rare veela that falls in love, marries and has babies grows breasts so huge that she has to sling them over her shoulders to get them out of her way. Fleur's grandmother probably dropped the baby on its paternal relatives' doorstep and got the heck out of Dodge while she could still wear cute underwear. --JDR From TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com Wed May 19 18:23:00 2004 From: TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com (TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:23:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginevra Message-ID: <37D45548.062E6992.FD754928@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98878 JoAnna wrote: Incidentally, do you think the fact that Ginny's the first Weasley girl born in several generations will become plot point? I'm inclined to think not - if it was, I'd imagine JKR would have mentioned it by now. However, there were a lot of new plot points developed in book 5, so it's possible. Thoughts I think it must be a plot point. Why would JKR include the detail that she's the first born in several generations? There has to be a reason for that. Perhaps she was born for a reason? (Besides the obvious idea that her parents wanted her.) --Trixie From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 19:19:11 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge In-Reply-To: <20040519185804.16864.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040519191911.27694.qmail@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98879 animal lover wrote: garybec wrote: an ad at the bottom from the QUIBBLER with the headline, "Minister of Magic, Corniellous Fudge Ran out of Town". I think the key to this is that he "Ran out of Town". This makes his exit sound more by choice like he was scared of the results of his lack of actions. There has been some discussion on what side Fudge is on.....this could lead to proving that he was working with LV all along. animallover_11 Here is a thought.... If Fudge is run out of town, what happens to Percy? I suspect that he is close to (if not already) crossing over to LV. how close am I? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mimi.barker at mindspring.com Wed May 19 20:19:54 2004 From: mimi.barker at mindspring.com (Mimi Barker) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 20:19:54 -0000 Subject: Random facts about the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98880 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jolene M Birum > wrote: > > From: Mimi > > > Ok, I just reread chapter one of Sorcerer's Stone (I have the > > > American edition), and can't see where anything is that I could > > > note indicating that Molly Prewett Weasley lost close family members to > > > Voldemort. > > > > Hagrid mentions "the McKinnons, the Bones, and the Prewetts" in chapter > > four of SS, on page 56. --Jolene > > Geoff: > The reference for UK editions is > (PS "The Keeper of the Keys" p.45 UK edition) I wonder if JKR will correct this (and the stockbroker/accountant bit) when she edits her page next. I'll have to keep a sharp eye out for changing info as well as new info. Will we have to wait a full month, or just until the first of June? Now we know who the Prewetts are and their connection to people in Harry's immediate world, and the Bones are his classmates Susan Bones' relatives. Who are the McKinnons, and do we know if they connect to anyone close to Harry? Mimi, who is far from her books so can't look it up From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 22:37:32 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:37:32 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98881 > Del replies : > Ah well :-) I don't see them as real soulmates. I see Hermione as > being very attuned to Harry's needs and inner workings, though she > still does make big mistakes sometimes. But I just don't see Harry as > being any good for Hermione. He gives her a purpose, but that's all. > He doesn't care about her emotional needs, he doesn't bother trying to > figure out how she works inside. The way I see it, she could become > his soulmate, but he will never be hers. And I want the girl to be > happy, understood and truly supported by her companion, which is why I > can't envision a H/H SHIP. Sorry guys :-) ! I agree with this, but I think Harry might grow emotionally. I'm not predicting an H/H ending, but I think it *could* happen. At this point, Hermione is much more emotionally mature than both Harry and Ron -- and isn't that the way it always seems to work in real life too? Girls at that age are almost always a couple years ahead of boys in terms of emotional development. Harry's interractions with Cho were a complete disaster; it took Hermione to explain to him what Cho's needs were, and in the end, he still didn't seem to get it. When they all mature, we'll see what happens. When it comes down to it, I think almost any set of pairings is possible, but personally I think I like H/H slightly more than H/R. --Cory From wcombs at cavtel.net Wed May 19 22:55:00 2004 From: wcombs at cavtel.net (glopmeister53) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:55:00 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98882 Hi! I thought I would give my opinion to the group about Harry Potter's future and possible relationship. So here it is: On page (582-583) of OOTP (Scholastic U.S.), it says, "Professor Trelawney broke into hysterical sobs during Divination and announced to the startled class, and a very disapproving Umbridge, that Harry was not going to suffer an early death after all, but would live to a ripe old age, become Minister of Magic, and have twelve children." Professor Trelawney does seem to make off-hand predictions that, at times, come true. Is this one of those predictions? If Harry is going to eventually have 12 children, then I don't think H\Hr is a suitable match. Hermione's ambition is more toward being a career oriented person, i.e working to advance a cause. (S.P.E.W.) I don't see her having twelve children. Who do we know who does have a lot of children, including an only daughter, who deep down, IMO, has stong feeling toward Harry and would be more likely, like her mother, to have a large family. Hmmm! Any thoughts? "glopmeister" From jmmears at comcast.net Wed May 19 23:04:14 2004 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:04:14 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98883 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > It doesn't seem logical, however, to have Hermione as Krum's contact > woman. She is as far from him as HQ in 12GP, or DD's office. If DD > wanted to send Krum orders it doesn't make much sense to find > Hermione and ask her to write him. And if Hermione were entrusted > with a way to send safe mail in and out of Hogwarts, why not > entrusting it to Harry also, and why didn't Hermione suggested it > when Harry needed to talk with Sirius and Lupin? She was very afraid > of that crazy plan to use Umbridge's fireplace with the twins' > diversion. Why didn't she say to Harry "if you just put it in the > letter, I'll find a safe way to smuggle it out"? Well, when I think about it, Hermione would be the only logical choice to be Krum's correspondant. After all, she was the "thing he would miss the most" in the TWT in addition to being publicly linked to him (in a romantic way) by Rita Skeeter in the Daily Prophet during the previous year. Wouldn't it seem a bit odd if Harry, or even Dumbledore were found to be writing to the Durmstrang champion? JKR has positioned Hermione as being precocious enough in her third year to have gotten special permission to use a time-turner, whose use is regulated by the MoM. I would imagine that if Dumbledore wanted someone who could be relied upon to be discreet as well as clever with such an important task, Hermione would be the only choice. As to why she wouldn't use this method to help Harry correspond with Sirius, I would think that she had been instructed to only use it for Order business with Krum and above all, to let no one else know about it. Writing to 12 GoP or Sirius Black in any capacity would be far too risky and might blow her cover. Neri continued: > The fact that Hermione wrote to Rita does not mean that she had a > safe way to send mail. Rita in the Three Broomsticks clearly didn't > know why Hermione wanted to meet her. This means that all Hermione > had to write her would be something like "will you be at the Three > Broomsticks this Saturday? If I won't see you there I'll be very > upset, and you know what is likely to happen when I'm upset" or > something innocent of that sort. If Harry managed to get past > Umbridge's screen this way, Hermione surely can. Your scenario is possible I suppose since Rita doesn't know why Hermione has summoned her. Still, can you imagine Umbridge allowing any Hogwarts student set up a meeting with *Rita Skeeter*,(of all people)? We do know that she's monitoring all post in and out of Hogwarts, so I think she'd be very, very suspicious of Hermione Granger setting up a date with a notorious reporter who has been very critical of the MoM in the past. I would imagine that would set off all sorts of alarm bells for Dolores Jane ! Thanks for your questions, Neri. This theory doesn't have all the i's dotted and t's crossed, and I like having to think through all possible challenges to it. Still, I'm so very fond of it that I'm thinking of ressurecting the old HPfGU acronym generator from the bottom of Theory Bay and giving it a Proper Name :D. Jo Serenadust, wondering if anyone's seen Tabouli or Grey Wolf lately From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 19 23:18:31 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:18:31 -0000 Subject: website and canon = Caution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: > Is JKR's new website considered canon, given that the other books, > chocolate frog cards, etc., are? > > Julie bboy_mn: JKR's website isn't canon; it's canonish. We have to be careful not to take everything as absolutely literal. JKR, like all people when they comminicate, makes generalization, snide comment, uses sarcasm, makes mild and sometimes subtly humorous comments, etc.... When JKR says Molly is a Prewett, then that is a fact. But when she says we can't use the endearing term 'Voldie' any more, I think we need to be careful. She is merely reminding us that Voldie is truly vicious and evil, and not a cute cuddly misunderstood 'bad boy'. So, when tempered with restrianed enthusiasm, common sense, and applied intellect; yes, I think it can be taken as canon. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 19 23:25:25 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:25:25 -0000 Subject: Fudge & Percy In-Reply-To: <20040519191911.27694.qmail@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > MoonMyyst: > > Here is a thought.... If Fudge is run out of town, what happens to Percy? I suspect that he is close to (if not already) crossing over to LV. > > how close am I? > bboy_mn: Simple; Percy's Ministry career not having gone so well, he decides to move to the field of education and accepts a postion as Defense Against Dark Art teacher at Hogwarts. Remember, you heard it here first. bboy_mn From patnkatng at cox.net Wed May 19 23:30:44 2004 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:30:44 -0000 Subject: Sharing names - Heritage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" > wrote: > > Mandy: > > Keep in mind too that this was just after the war, and there were > > many lost, orphaned and unclaimed children who were sent out to the > > countryside for saftey and who's parents then died in air raids. > > This obviously didn't happen to Tom Riddle Jr., but the system > would > > have been over loaded with orphaned children and stretched to the > > limits. > > Geoff: > Mandy, You've got your time frame wrong. Tom was about 15-16 at the > time of COS and that was 1942 (50 years prior to Harry's second year > which was 1992/3). So he was born about 1926/7. > > He might have gone to the countryside in the Second World War as a > teenager. We had a thread on Stockwell Orphanage and its evacuation > from London. It was part of a thread on Vauxhall Road and the diary > and began around message 86880. Katrina: On the other hand, that would mean he was born 8-9 years after the Great War. Surely that would affect the orphanages as well? From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed May 19 23:36:43 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:36:43 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98887 Pippin wrote: Ah, I think this is where we come to the parting of the ways "the person Sirius cared most about in the world was you [...] you were coming to regard Sirius as a mixture of father and brother. Voldemort knew already, of course, that Sirius was in the Order, that you knew where he was -- but Kreacher's information made him realize that the one person whom you would go to any lengths to rescue was Sirius Black." -- OOP 37 Sirius could not possibly endanger only himself. Any danger to him was a danger to Harry, a danger that Dumbledore could not protect against, because in Harry reposes a power "more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature [...the power that ] took you to save Sirius tonight." Dumbledore knew that if Sirius were captured Harry would go after him and he would *not* be able to prevent it, any more than he had been able to stop Harry from going after the Stone, or entering the Chamber, or following Ron into the Shrieking Shack. Sirius was more heroic than we realize. By keeping himself safe, much as he hated doing it, he protected Harry until Harry had strength enough to survive the confrontation with Voldemort at the MoM. Neri: Hmmm, so do you say that if it were Lupin or Arthur, not Sirius, tortured by LV in the DoM in that false vision, Harry wouldn't have flown to London to rescue them? I think he would. Perhaps not with so much fervor, but had he thought he is the only one who can do something about it, he would. As Hermione accurately diagnosed, Harry has a "people-saving thing", not merely a "Sirius-saving thing". Heck, he even put his life on the line to get Cedric's body back home. It is not specifically Sirius who is Harry's weak spot. It's anyone in need of rescue. If Hermione can appreciate this, so should DD. During most of year 5, DD didn't know that Kreacher is going to tell LV that the-one-person-whom-Harry-Potter-would-go-to-any-lengths-to- rescue-is-Sirius-Black, but still he tried to overprotect and over- control Sirius, and naturally failed. Same as he tried to overprotect and over-control Harry and again, naturally, failed. Sure, in the level of the author's intension, Sirius' fate was to die in order to raise that Power-that-the-Dark-Lord-knows-not in Harry. But in the level of the characters' motives and actions, DD failed in estimating the capabilities and limitations of two, or actually three of his key troopers: Harry, Sirius *and* Snape. Luckily he managed (as these things sometimes happen in RL also) to narrowly get out of this debacle with just one casualty, instead of total defeat, because one of his mistakes canceled the others: He didn't realise he can't run Sirius and Harry on remote control with zero information, but he also failed in realizing that it is Harry's heart, not his mind, that is his best protection. Well, as Napoleon once noted, Luck is a great virtue in a commander... Neri From tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com Wed May 19 23:50:17 2004 From: tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 19:50:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Ginevra References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98888 kitten says... > It has been said that R/Hr and H/G are the most "obvious" ships in > the books... I, being an R/Hr shipper, can understand the R/Hr being > obvious, but did I miss something with Harry/Ginny? I just don't see > it as "obvious" in the books. Can someone please explain this "Harry > and Ginny is obvious" thing? Ali: Not being a shipper of anything (I like the idea of certain couples but don't see much proof of anything in the books), I'm not sure I should jump into this volatile conversation, but I'll risk it. One of my friends staunchly believes that Harry/Ginny is the most obvious relationship in the books aside from the R/Hr pairing. His reasoning is that Harry will be drawn to Ginny by the fact that he is Ron's best friend. Ron's family has practically adopted Harry, and by marriage to Ginny, Harry will be fully integrated into the family. The combination of Ginny's pull - she is a spunky girl and not too bad a match for Harry's personality - and her family's happiness is my friend's reasoning behind the Harry/Ginny theory. Personally, I can't see it. I see minor indications for the possibility of the R/Hr thing, but I can't see that working out in the long term. They would drive each other to madness. If forced to pick a pair, I'd have to go with H/Hr. There's not a lot of cannon evidence, but the dynamics between the two makes me think that their getting together is probably more likely in the long term. ~Ali, who would like to sail the HMS Pumpkin Pie except she can't really see its happening as such a likely thing (like other Pumpkin Piers) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmmears at comcast.net Wed May 19 23:59:06 2004 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:59:06 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > I've often said that the differences between Hermione and Harry > compliment each other - I used the words yin and yang. > > Hermione, deliberate, thinking, deep; Harry, instinctive, acting, > emotional. Harry needs someone who restrains him when he goes off the > deep end, which he is wont to do, and Hermione needs someone that > gives her more of a purpose and draws her away from bossiness. She > needs someone who needs what she's got. They balance each other, or > so I always have thought. The thing is, I don't actually think that they do balance each other. I see Hermione, relentlessly well-intentioned, nagging and even sometimes hounding Harry to do what she thinks he should. Sometimes she even presumes to take actions which she feels are in his best interests but which backfire (remember when she "cleared away" Harry's left over potion so that he was unable to re-submit his assignment earning him yet another zero?). Harry responds with evasion, tooth-gritting silence, and finally, furious outbursts. The fact that this dynamic hasn't changed over the 5 books so far (and seemed to get worse in OoP) suggests to me that while they are fast friends, anything more would not work at all. Jim continued: > To be honest, Harry's not going to be an easy mate for anybody. He's > going to be seriously bent by the War, and anybody could respectably > argue he's going to be damaged goods not suitable for anyone. > > How can I say what I want to about Ron without seeming to diss him, > which I absolutely don't want to do? Ron's instinct, despite what > he's been through, leads him to want a good, decent, and ordinary > life. He's going to want a home, a wife, and a family, and that will > make him happy. Hermione wants and needs more, I think. She's not Molly. But I think Hermione *is* Molly! I mean, JKR practically beats us over the head with comparisons in OOP. They both fuss, nag at times, seem to hold the same opinions and worries when it comes to Sirius Black, Dumbledore and the twins' antics. And don't forget the knitting. I wonder where Hermione learned magical knitting ? The parallels were certainly emphasized heavily, and while there are obvious physical, age, and circumstantial differences, the similarities seem obvious to me. I'm sure you wouldn't want to imply that because Hermione is a very bright and energetic student, she wouldn't want to be a wife and mother. For all we know, Molly may have been very much like Hermione while at school. Jim continued: > But I agree with you completely about Ginny and the Weasley family. > the One Big Happy Weasley Family (OBHWF) idea has given a lot of > people sugar shock, but it doesn't have to be so saccharine. Ginny is > now a developed character (more to come) and I like her. A lot. The > way she's integrated Fred and George into herself *with* better > control is powerful, IMO. You have to like it. I certainly agree with you here. I'm not totally convinced of a Harry/Ginny ship just yet, but I do believe that Ginny has a very significant part to play and I've become very fond of her. Jo S. From tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com Thu May 20 00:03:55 2004 From: tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 20:03:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do brooms fit in trunks. References: <81.c268736.2ddc0fc7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98890 Neil: > On numerous occasions JKR has mentioned that Harry put his broom in his > trunk. Even if he has one of those old steamer trunks, I doubt a broom would fit > in it. How does he do it? It's a good question. I never thought about it much, but I've always figured that the trunk is magical. I guess I read a bit too much Mary Poppins, but my thoughts were that Harry's trunk was akin to Mary's carpetbag. ~Ali From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu May 20 00:08:36 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 00:08:36 -0000 Subject: website and canon = Caution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98891 > wrote: > > Is JKR's new website considered canon, given that the other books, > > chocolate frog cards, etc., are? > > > > Julie > > bboy_mn: > > JKR's website isn't canon; it's canonish. > > We have to be careful not to take everything as absolutely literal. > JKR, like all people when they comminicate, makes generalization, > snide comment, uses sarcasm, makes mild and sometimes subtly humorous > comments, etc.... > > When JKR says Molly is a Prewett, then that is a fact. But when she > says we can't use the endearing term 'Voldie' any more, I think we > need to be careful. She is merely reminding us that Voldie is truly > vicious and evil, and not a cute cuddly misunderstood 'bad boy'. > > So, when tempered with restrianed enthusiasm, common sense, and > applied intellect; yes, I think it can be taken as canon. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Antosha: I grant your point absolutely. Some of the language on the site is less than purely declarative; indeed, some of it is intentionally so. Having granted that, the same could be said of the novels. They are rife with ambiguity, irony and puns. Does that make them canon-ish too? ;-) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu May 20 01:06:33 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 01:06:33 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98892 >Jo Serenadust wrote: >Wouldn't it seem a bit odd if Harry, or > even Dumbledore were found to be writing to the Durmstrang champion? > >Still, can you imagine Umbridge allowing > any Hogwarts student set up a meeting with *Rita Skeeter*,(of all > people)? We do know that she's monitoring all post in and out of > Hogwarts, so I think she'd be very, very suspicious of Hermione > Granger setting up a date with a notorious reporter who has been > very critical of the MoM in the past. I would imagine that would > set off all sorts of alarm bells for Dolores Jane ! > Neri: I think you are missing something here. As I understand it, there is no easy way to find out where or to whom an owl was sent (or you could use this to locate any wizard in the world). Harry sending an owl to mass murderer Sirius Black would be even more noticeable than Hermione writing to Rita Skeeter, but Harry easily diverted this by addressing his letter to "Snuffles". In the same way, if Hermione addressed her letter to "My dearest Beetle", Umbridge wouldn't have any way to know who is Beetle, but Rita would have got the message all right. For the same reason, DD can easily send owls directly to Krum and nobody will know about it, even assuming DD doesn't have a safer and faster way to contact Krum. >Jo Serenadust wrote: > Thanks for your questions, Neri. This theory doesn't have all the > i's dotted and t's crossed, and I like having to think through all > possible challenges to it. Still, I'm so very fond of it that I'm > thinking of ressurecting the old HPfGU acronym generator from the > bottom of Theory Bay and giving it a Proper Name :D. > Neri: Can't help you there. My poor English is not up to acronyms, or I would have found some for my own theories :-) But good luck with your theory. I think it has a lot of truth in it. Neri From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu May 20 01:18:25 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 01:18:25 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98893 > Del wrote: > It doesn't to me, especially if you consider that she barely stopped > writing her letter and goes back to it right away. *Ron* is the one > who makes a big deal out of The Kiss, not Hermione. In fact, I find > her so incredibly detached but not too unnaturally so, that it seems > obvious to me that she's absolutely not jealous. That scene was the > last proof I needed to convince me that Hermione isn't interested in > Harry. > > I guess that's just another proof that the whole SHIPping debate > depends entirely on everyone's very personal inner workings. It seems absolutely *obvious* to me in this scene that Hermione is NOT jealous, I just can't imagine any jealous girl reacting the way she does, but I guess that could be only because *I* would never ever react in any way close to that way if *I* were jealous. :-) Mandy here: But I would act that way. It is funny isn't it? How we all perceive the relationships differently and it is hopeless! We're just going to have to wait for Jo to give us the answer. To me, when I read Hermione acting briskly, hardly looking up and going strait back to her book, speaks that she is jealous and determined to hide it from both of the boys. She wants avoid giving herself away and showing she her feelings of jealous for Harry to her too closest friends. When you have a crush or are in love with someone who doesn't realize it, or is not reciprocating the feelings, you are reluctant to show how you feel for all sorts of reasons. Embarrassment, the fear of rejection, the fear of changing the relationship as it stands. Also Hermione knows very well that if Ron thought she was jealous of Harry it would produce one of two reactions from him (Ron); either his jealousy and resentment of her feelings to his friend or un-merciless teasing and laughter. Cheers Mandy. From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 01:30:15 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 01:30:15 -0000 Subject: Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98894 > > Animallover_11 wrote: > > > I think the key to this is that he "Ran out of Town". This makes > > his exit sound more by choice like he was scared of the results of > > his lack of actions. There has been some discussion on what side > > Fudge is on.....this could lead to proving that he was working with > > LV along. > > > > > > > > > Potioncat: > > In American English a headline that read "Fudge Ran Out of Town" > > would mean that the townspeople ran him out, or more likely here, > he > > was forced out of office. > > Potioncat > Jason now: I was just looking for that quote from the quibbler and when it came up, it said "Fudge forced to flee: Minister of magic chased from office" seems to end the debate as to whether he left on his own accord or not. From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 01:32:09 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 01:32:09 -0000 Subject: What if it's not his powers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98895 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote: > I've been reading a bunch of the "will Harry lose his powers" stuff > and it's all well and good but it seems to be based on the notion > that Harry somehow sacrifices his powers because they are what means > the most to him. > > I don't get that at all. > > > What did Harry see in the Mirror of Erised, himself as the most > powerful wizard around? Nope, a family. What Harry wants most is > the kind of loving family he has never had. If he has to sacrifice > what he wants the most, I think it will be a family. > > And I can see how it happens. > > Harry and Ginny hook up somewhat, > But at some point Harry has to make a decision that ends up costing > Ron's life. Neither Hermione nor Ginny can really ever forgive him, > yada yada et cetera and so forth. > > Just a thought. Mo: I agree somewhat. I agree with your point about the Miror of Erised and Harry possibly loosing the very thing he desires - a family. I am not saying that I think Harry is going to loose a family, or the chance at having a family, necessarily. BUT, if it turns out to be the case, I don't think it will be a result of him loosing Ron's life and not being forgiven by Hermione or Ginny. I think it will be the mear factor that Harry has just seen too much. In Ootp, HP states that he has always been a "marked man." Marked men don't lead normal, happy lives. Harry wants a normal happy life with a family, but due to his remarkable circumstances, it makes it impossible. Harry's formidable, growing up years have been nothing but abuse and trauma with the occasional reasurance from a friend (which he never had until he was 11) Think about a person in the human world. If they had endured even half as much as Harry, they would have to be in severe therapy. Harry is "scarred" in much more than one way. He is scarred with the events of his life. I think it will be impossible for him to have or seek out a normal relationship and health family even if LV is destroyed and gone for good. ~Mo From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu May 20 02:19:57 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 02:19:57 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98896 Jo wrote: Your scenario is possible I suppose since Rita doesn't know why Hermione has summoned her. Still, can you imagine Umbridge allowing any Hogwarts student set up a meeting with *Rita Skeeter*,(of all people)? We do know that she's monitoring all post in and out of Hogwarts, so I think she'd be very, very suspicious of Hermione Granger setting up a date with a notorious reporter who has been very critical of the MoM in the past. I would imagine that would set off all sorts of alarm bells for Dolores Jane ! vmonte responds: Rita may have a cute animagus nickname/codename like Sirius did. Hermione wouldn't have to write Rita's name on the letter, just whatever code/contact name they decided on. By the way, maybe they contact each other through personal ads in the newspaper. vmonte From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu May 20 02:26:34 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 02:26:34 -0000 Subject: Crouch!Moody and the Unforgivables Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98898 I am currently rereading my copy of GoF, and have just finnished the chapter (chapter 15, Beaxbatons and Durmstrang) where Crouch!Moody teaches Harry and his DADA class about the Imperius curse, and had put each of them under it in turn. This is also where Harry learns to resist the curse, which will come in handy later when he finally duels LV in the graveyard. After Harry throws off the curse for the first time, Crouch!Moody makes an interesting comment, and I quote: "Very good, Potter, very good indeed! "They'll have trouble controlling you!" (page 232, American hardcover). Here's my question: who on earth is the "them" he's talking about? Now there has, of course, been endless speculation about Crouch!Moody's reasons for teaching this particualr curse and, more importantly how to resist it, from a personal distaste for the Imperius curse too merely keeping up appearances for DD (and I have searched as best I could through the Yahoo search engine for posts on this particualr subject and didn't find anything close to what I'm thinking). But something hit me tonight. What if, in the vein of many classic right- hand men, Crouch!Moody had his own designs on LV's power? I know that he will state while under the veritaserum that he will be closer than a son to LV, but that doesn't mean that he didn't have ambitions of his own, and he allready showed that he was capable of killing a (admittedly despised) father. Perhaps, if DD and the others hadn't busted in on him and Harry in the Veritaserum chapter (after LV's rebirth and Cedric's death) he would, like LV in SS, have asked Harry to join him? Asked Harry to be his right hand man? I know, I know it's crazy, but could the "them" refer not to DE's, but DD? And Crouch wanted to prevent Harry from being manipulated by the side of good as much as the dark side? We know that he was kissed by a dementor (dementorized?) but where has his body gone? Is recovery possible? Will Crouch be back to challenge LV? Or am I completely cracked? Feel free to crush my rantings to bits. Meri - who's attempts at theorization are completely lame to the much more esteemed memebers of TBAY... From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu May 20 02:33:26 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 02:33:26 -0000 Subject: A Rather Disturbing Snape Idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98899 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > JoAnne wrote: > > > > But if she decided to be particularly evil, or just wanted to shock > > everyone with a twist ending to his story...once the life debt is > > paid, the spying done, the Order of Merlin awarded...everything all > > wound up neat and tidy, no unfinished business to attend...I could > > see the guy found dead at his desk one morning, with empty bottles > of > > Old Ogden's and some painless, lethal poison next to him. > > > > > Potioncat: > Well, given that Jo said she won't take on teen pregnancy or drugs, I > doubt she'll take on suicide. > > ESE!Potioncat who just pictured Harry finding Snape, as described > above, just in time! Yeah, it would be awful of JKR not to explain everything, especially about Complicated!Snape, but the real interesting thing would be what Harry would do if he caught Snape about to take the fatal dose...hmmm...that one will fester overnight. Meri - not wanting to open up another debate about Snape-Harry reconciliation From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu May 20 02:43:52 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 02:43:52 -0000 Subject: Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98900 > kitten says... > > It has been said that R/Hr and H/G are the most "obvious" ships in > > the books... I, being an R/Hr shipper, can understand the R/Hr being > > obvious, but did I miss something with Harry/Ginny? I just don't see > > it as "obvious" in the books. Can someone please explain this "Harry > > and Ginny is obvious" thing? > > Ali: > Not being a shipper of anything (I like the idea of certain couples but don't see much proof of anything in the books), I'm not sure I should jump into this volatile conversation, but I'll risk it. One of my friends staunchly believes that Harry/Ginny is the most obvious relationship in the books aside from the R/Hr pairing. His reasoning is that Harry will be drawn to Ginny by the fact that he is Ron's best friend. Ron's family has practically adopted Harry, and by marriage to Ginny, Harry will be fully integrated into the family. The combination of Ginny's pull - she is a spunky girl and not too bad a match for Harry's personality - and her family's happiness is my friend's reasoning behind the Harry/Ginny theory. > > Personally, I can't see it. I see minor indications for the possibility of the R/Hr thing, but I can't see that working out in the long term. They would drive each other to madness. If forced to pick a pair, I'd have to go with H/Hr. There's not a lot of cannon evidence, but the dynamics between the two makes me think that their getting together is probably more likely in the long term. > > ~Ali, who would like to sail the HMS Pumpkin Pie except she can't really see its happening as such a likely thing (like other Pumpkin Piers) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] :shakes head and smiles: Sorry. I didn't mean to start another H/Hr vs. H/G shipping debate--I just wanted to speculate on the significance of Ginny's newly discovered full name.... Ah, well, l'amour.... Since Jung has already been mentioned here recently, it occurs to me that a lot of the shipping brouhaha can be put down to projection--each of us has a romantic relationship we aspire to, one that Jung would say is represented in the anima/animus (our internalized ideal image of the opposite sex). We tend to see the OTP for Harry that most closely matches our own subconscious desires, and our own perceptions of and associations with the various characters. So think of your 'obvious' ship as a sort of Rorsarch test... But don't think about it too hard. ;-) Pumpkin Pie? That's a new one to me. What means? From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu May 20 02:49:23 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 02:49:23 -0000 Subject: A Rather Disturbing Snape Idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98901 Meri: > Yeah, it would be awful of JKR not to explain everything, especially > about Complicated!Snape, but the real interesting thing would be > what Harry would do if he caught Snape about to take the fatal > dose...hmmm...that one will fester overnight. > Meri - not wanting to open up another debate about Snape-Harry > reconciliation Antosha: Oh, boy, can you imagine if Snape went through all of that, only to find himself in a life- debt to a Potter... AGAIN. Poor Severus. I like that Snape--unlike the rest of the nasties in the series--really has begun to show real complexity. I mean, I still think he's a sadistic, horrible man, and I'll never believe that someone incapable of grading fairly or helping floundering students can ever be considered a good teacher, but he certainly is interesting. From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu May 20 02:57:12 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 02:57:12 -0000 Subject: Why did Ginevra petrify Mrs. Norris anyway? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98902 vmonte: All this talk about Ginevra has got me thinking. Why did she petrify Mrs. Norris in CoS? (I'm sure this was discussed before but I began to have suicidal thoughts while using yahoo's search engine.) Did the cat just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time? And why not just leave the cat on the floor; why hang it by it's tail? Is it possible that Ginny is an animagus, but doesn't yet know it? Could she have been walking the corridors (in a trance-like state) as a cat and bumped into Mrs. Norris? Did she discover something about her while she was in cat form? Hanging the cat upside down seems rather personal doesn't it? Especially considering that Ginny usually likes animals. I do have to admit though that that cat is annoying... By the way, I don't see Harry and Hermione as an item. Harry and Ginny make a better match IMO. vmonte From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu May 20 03:04:00 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 03:04:00 -0000 Subject: Why did Ginevra petrify Mrs. Norris anyway? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98903 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > > All this talk about Ginevra has got me thinking. Why did she petrify > Mrs. Norris in CoS? (I'm sure this was discussed before but I began > to have suicidal thoughts while using yahoo's search engine.) Did the > cat just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time? And why > not just leave the cat on the floor; why hang it by it's tail? Is it > possible that Ginny is an animagus, but doesn't yet know it? Could > she have been walking the corridors (in a trance-like state) as a cat > and bumped into Mrs. Norris? Did she discover something about her > while she was in cat form? > > Hanging the cat upside down seems rather personal doesn't it? > Especially considering that Ginny usually likes animals. > > I do have to admit though that that cat is annoying... > > By the way, I don't see Harry and Hermione as an item. Harry and > Ginny make a better match IMO. > > vmonte Ginny was possessed by Diary!Tom Riddle when she did all this, her own feelings towards animals nonwithstanding. The attack on Mrs. Norris was surely directed at Filch the Squib, who in Tom's eyes would probably be unworthy even to clean the mud off the floors of Hogwarts, and I would guess that poor (ahem) Mrs. Norris was hung up on the wall to make sure everyone noticed the message Ginny left. And also, everyone else was at dinner in the crowded hall, so there wasn't anyone else to attack. (And busting into the Great Hall would have blown the basilisk's cover.) Also, as to Ginny being an animagus unwittingly, I don't think being an animagus is something you are born, it takes years of studying and skill to complete the transformation. Anyway, to knuts worth. Meri From garybec at yahoo.com Thu May 20 00:28:21 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 00:28:21 -0000 Subject: Fudge & Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98904 > > MoonMyyst: > > Here is a thought.... If Fudge is run out of town, what happens > > to Percy? I suspect that he is close to (if not already) > > crossing over to LV. > bboy_mn: > Simple; Percy's Ministry career not having gone so well, he > decides to move to the field of education and accepts a postion as > Defense Against Dark Art teacher at Hogwarts. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98905 Pippin wrote: > Sirius could not possibly endanger only himself. Any danger to > him was a danger to Harry, a danger that Dumbledore could not > protect against, > Dumbledore knew that if Sirius were captured Harry would go after > him and he would *not* be able to prevent it, any more than he had > been able to stop Harry from going after the Stone, or entering the > Chamber, or following Ron into the Shrieking Shack. > > Sirius was more heroic than we realize. By keeping himself safe, > much as he hated doing it, he protected Harry until Harry had > strength enough to survive the confrontation with Voldemort at > the MoM. Neri: > Hmmm, so do you say that if it were Lupin or Arthur, not Sirius, > tortured by LV in the DoM in that false vision, Harry wouldn't have > flown to London to rescue them? > > I think he would. Perhaps not with so much fervor, but had he > thought he is the only one who can do something about it, he would. > As Hermione accurately diagnosed, Harry has a "people-saving thing", > not merely a "Sirius-saving thing". > During most of year 5, DD didn't know that Kreacher is going to > tell LV that the-one-person-whom-Harry-Potter-would-go-to-any-lengths- > to-rescue-is-Sirius-Black, but still he tried to overprotect and over- > control Sirius, and naturally failed. Same as he tried to > overprotect and over-control Harry and again, naturally, failed. It is just a thought. But linking both your ideas together and in agreement that yes Harry would sacrifice himself to protect any of his friends. Even so I would have to say he would be less reasoned when it comes to Sirius. So we have Harry rushing off blindly to save Sirius, instead of thinking that he may be being manipulated into it. The one person Harry will respond to with out thinking is suddenly in need of him. Had Harry used as much brain as heart then he would have waited for more information, so could the lesson have been for Harry to use his head as well as his heart and that sometimes he may have to sacrifice one of his friends, echoes of P/Stone in this, in battle to win the war and that he Harry has to make that choice of who he must let die? Dumbledore could be seen as reaffirming that thought to Harry when he mentions to Harry that Sirius was too old and too wise to rise to Snape's bait fully. That Sirius knew what was at stake deep down and was more than prepared for his sacrifice. So was the lesson to think before you act a painful lesson but one Harry needs to learn and not to trust all you are told, a lesson he should have learned from his encounter with Tom Riddle in CoS? I also think that Sirius realised that he was a liability to Harry and that perhaps he, Sirius, was getting in the way. Harry wondered several times what Sirius would think about something, yes he was helping Harry with information but Harry was also giving up some ground to Sirius and Sirius knew Harry was the one who had to do as Ron said in Book one, it's you Harry, you alone or words to that effect. Had Sirius stayed as you say he would have endangered Harry more? But perhaps Sirius knew he could help Harry from the other side of the veil too and finally got to make his sacrifice and pay back his friends trust in him, by going beyond the veil, knowing he can't come back, but on that side being able to help Harry, somewhat as James and Lily did in GoF. Thus continuing the theme of sacrificing oneself for the love of others. Just a thought, sorry if it's a bit muddled it's very late for me but I was drawn to this post. "scarletsorceress666" From angellima at xtra.co.nz Thu May 20 01:43:25 2004 From: angellima at xtra.co.nz (Blackness) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 13:43:25 +1200 Subject: another LV - Riddle question References: Message-ID: <004401c43e0b$d97878d0$982c56d2@Angel> No: HPFGUIDX 98906 Lynette: > As to why SS recognized TR as his true heir - he could speak > parseltongue, he studied the dark arts for years, he agreed with > the no mud-bloods (even though he was a half blood), and he cared > enough to try to find the chamber for years. His hatred of his > muggle father increased his hatred of the mud-bloods. The magic > that SS left to protect the chamber recognized this kindred of > spirit in TR. Gina: Okay let me clarify - I know it is possible Tom could be related "heir" of Slytherin, but why would SS RECOGNIZE a mudblood as his heir? Does that make more sense? Yes, they could be related, but why would Slytherin condone this mudblood messing up the perfectly pure family tree? I have a theory about this. Slytherin's "Heir" was often referred to in the singular. There is no other mention of the Chamber ever being opened other than Riddle Jr's time in school and revisiting of Hogwarts via his diary in Harry's time - Dumbledore was adamant in the hosp wing that it WAS Voldemort responsible then too, even before it was made known. What if - all the Slytherin descendents were female until Tom Riddle Jnr? And the missing ingredient all that time was Muggle blood, because being pureblood fanatics the females refused to intermarry? From garybec at yahoo.com Thu May 20 01:44:47 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 01:44:47 -0000 Subject: Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98907 Potioncat: > > In American English a headline that read "Fudge Ran Out of > > Town" would mean that the townspeople ran him out, or more > > likely here, he was forced out of office. Jason now: > I was just looking for that quote from the quibbler and when it > came up, it said > > "Fudge forced to flee: Minister of magic chased from office" > > seems to end the debate as to whether he left on his own accord or > not. Becki writes; Sorry for the paraphrasing on my original post, but I was going by memory and I could not find the original message. Indeed he was "chased out". I had to chuckle when I saw that quibbler headline. I am sure it will make for a funny bit in the book. Kind of like the Umbridge bit in the hospital wing at the end of OoP, when the kids were making "clucking/clicking sounds" like hooves and she was startled. Ya just gotta like the deserving ones getting it in the end. Becki From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 05:38:58 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 05:38:58 -0000 Subject: Tragic Hero Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98908 Well we've looked at the HP books in terms of the Bible. Has anyone explored the poss. of JKR using the classic Greek tragedy as a model. I didn't find any posts in the archive, but I didn't look all that hard. The books seem to have all the necessary elements: prophesy, war, and a tragic hero. Aristotle says that a tragic hero has several important characteristics that lead to his downfall. A tragic hero must be admired and envied by the reader (in the case of Greek drama the audience). Harry certainly fits this characteristic. Who wouldn't want to be a wizard? Harry isn't just any wizard either, he's already The Boy Who Lived and certainly has the potential to be The Boy Who Lived Twice. A tragic hero must evoke pity from the audience. I certainly felt for the little boy tormented by the Dursley's and then again we pity the loss of Harry's parents and his godfather. DD certainly feels pity for Harry when he reveals his error in judgement in OotP. Next our hero must have a tragic flaw and that flaw must cause him to make a grand error in judgement that causes his downfall. Hubris, pride of the gods, is the primary flaw used in Greek tradgedy. Harry flaw, IMHO, is already being eploited by LV. His need to "save the world" He's always rushing off to save someone, usually without thinking about the consequences or taking the time to prepare himself. Thus far, Harry has had help in his tasks. Eventually the time will come when he doesn't have that help. If this senario plays out, he will over estimate his ablities and fail. Finally, the hero must have a predestined fate, usually made known through prophesy. Well we've certainly seen this. I also have a feeling that Trelawney isn't finished, she has one more message to share with us. The downside is that the tragic hero has to fail to change his destiny. Lady McBeth From scarletsorceress666 at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 20 01:50:08 2004 From: scarletsorceress666 at yahoo.co.uk (scarletsorceress666) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 01:50:08 -0000 Subject: What if it's not his powers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98909 "gregory_lynn" wrote: > I've been reading a bunch of the "will Harry lose his powers" > stuff and it's all well and good but it seems to be based on the > notion that Harry somehow sacrifices his powers because they are > what means the most to him. > > I don't get that at all. > > What did Harry see in the Mirror of Erised, himself as the most > powerful wizard around? Nope, a family. What Harry wants most > is the kind of loving family he has never had. If he has to > sacrifice what he wants the most, I think it will be a family. Haven't we seen that Harry and Lord Voldemort are equal in most things and by the time we get to Book 7 in all but one thing and that is love? It is more likely to be Harry's life he will give up to save someone else that will defeat Lord Voldemort, as that is the only thing he cannot understand, to love, to be loved and to want love, and I don't mean romance. Just a thought.^_^ "scarletsorceress666" From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 05:43:52 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 05:43:52 -0000 Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: <004401c43e0b$d97878d0$982c56d2@Angel> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98910 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Blackness" wrote: > Lynette: > > > As to why SS recognized TR as his true heir - he could speak > > parseltongue, he studied the dark arts for years, he agreed with > > the no mud-bloods (even though he was a half blood), and he cared > > enough to try to find the chamber for years. His hatred of his > > muggle father increased his hatred of the mud-bloods. The magic > > that SS left to protect the chamber recognized this kindred of > > spirit in TR. > > > Gina: > Okay let me clarify - I know it is possible Tom could be related > "heir" of Slytherin, but why would SS RECOGNIZE a mudblood as his heir? > Does that make more sense? Yes, they could be related, but why would > Slytherin condone this mudblood messing up the perfectly pure family > tree? > SNIP Jason writes, Maybe Salazar himself wasn't a pureblood. Does it specifically say he was in canon? Ive thought all along that he shared the same sort of past as Voldemort and thats just one of the many reasons V turned out the way he did. From garybec at yahoo.com Thu May 20 01:53:31 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 01:53:31 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98911 Mandy here: > To me, when I read Hermione acting briskly, hardly looking up and > going straight back to her book, speaks that she is jealous and > determined to hide it from both of the boys. She wants avoid > giving herself away and showing she her feelings of jealous for > Harry to her two closest friends. When you have a crush or are in > love with someone who doesn't realize it, or is not reciprocating the > feelings, you are reluctant to show how you feel for all sorts of > reasons. Embarrassment, the fear of rejection, the fear of changing > the relationship as it stands. Becki writes: I agree with you Mandy. I do think that Hermione is very jealous, but her reaction may have even surprised herself? Maybe that is why she asked the questions in such a way? Trying to distance herself but on the inside, burning? Maybe she is struggling with her feelings right now. I have to admit that I am a H/Hr shipper. I think they belong together. Even Lily detested James until their 7th year. A lot can happen, and I am sure...will. Becki, now an official, admitted H/Hr shipper. From azakitpgr at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 20 04:05:30 2004 From: azakitpgr at yahoo.co.uk (PGR) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 04:05:30 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98912 Jo S. (serenadust) wrote: > > Oh boy! Finally a chance to trot out my favorite OOP theory . > > Victor Krum is a member of the Order and Hermione is the one > > entrusted with being his contact. Del replied : > Yes, I've wondered about that too, > how *could* she write to Viktor ? She would have a secret way... Perhaps she sent him a protean charmed parchment! PGR From mousepad at insightbb.com Thu May 20 04:09:57 2004 From: mousepad at insightbb.com (Mousepad) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:09:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why did Ginevra petrify Mrs. Norris anyway? References: Message-ID: <001c01c43e20$4fefd5d0$6901a8c0@brmkam> No: HPFGUIDX 98913 vmonte: > All this talk about Ginevra has got me thinking. Why did she > petrify Mrs. Norris in CoS? Lady Kate: Clearly Ginny did not do the petrification. It was the basilisk. Ginny merely opened the Chamber while being posessed. I am not even sure that she had any control over what the basilisk did when it was out. I can't imagine that she hung around the basilisk when it was loose or she would have been petrified at the very least or worse, killed like Myrtle. Perhaps she would be immune to its effects while posessed? I doubt it, and there is no canon support for that. Lady Kate From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu May 20 05:55:19 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 05:55:19 -0000 Subject: FILK: To My Inner Eye, Said I Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98914 To My Inner Eye, Said I To the tune of When I Went to the Bar (aka Said I to Myself, Said I), from Gilbert and Sullivan's Iolanthe. Dedicated to Sylvia Blundell THE SCENE: Divination Class. PROFESSOR TRELAWNEY reflects back to the onset of her teaching career TRELAWNEY: When I went to Hogwarts as a teacher brand new To my Inner Eye, said I I'll teach Divination without grand ado To my Inner Eye, said I I will not go in for cheap beads and incense Or fill up my classroom with perfumes too dense And breakable teacups I will not dispense To my Inner Eye, said I My lighting will never be gloomy or dim To my Inner Eye, said I I'll never scare students with thestrals or Grims To my Inner Eye, said I Clairvoyant theatrics I'll always avoid For students are apt to become quite annoyed If I keep predicting that they'll be destroyed To my Inner Eye, said I Professional friendships I'll strongly promote To my Inner Eye, said I I'll never act mystic or strange and remote To my Inner Eye, said I When dining with colleagues, you'll not see me preen Or discomfit them by creating a scene Should our table by some happenstance seat thirteen To my Inner Eye, said I With learning and knowledge our teachers are armed To my Inner Eye, said I In Potions, Defenses, and Runes and in Charms To my Inner Eye, said I Their goals and their methods are clear and precise And the Prophetic Arts should accept their advice For mere smoke and mirrors no longer suffice To my Inner Eye, said I - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (the next update is almost done ? maybe tomorrow!) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 20 06:06:44 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 06:06:44 -0000 Subject: website and canon = Caution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98915 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > > wrote: > > > Is JKR's new website considered canon, given that the other > > > books, chocolate frog cards, etc., are? > > > > > > Julie > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > JKR's website isn't canon; it's canonish. > > > > We have to be careful not to take everything as absolutely > > literal. JKR, like all people when they comminicate, makes > > generalization, snide comment, uses sarcasm, makes mild and > > sometimes subtly humorous comments, etc.... > > > > ...edited... > > > > So, when tempered with restrianed enthusiasm, common sense, and > > applied intellect; yes, I think it can be taken as canon. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > bboy_mn > > > Antosha: > > I grant your point absolutely. Some of the language on the site is > less than purely declarative; indeed, some of it is intentionally > so. > > Having granted that, the same could be said of the novels. They are > rife with ambiguity, irony and puns. Does that make them canon-ish > too? > > Antosha ;-) bboy_mn: Actually,... Yes. When we take some ambiguious irony, pun, bit of humor, insignificant action, or general statement, and use it as the foundation for some grand conspiracy, to determine who's in love with who, or who is 'Ever So Evil', then it ceases to be canon, and becomes 'canon-ish'. An overly active imagination and too much time on our hands is a terrible (and terribly fun) thing to waste. ;) Just a thought. bboy_mn From kirklander368 at hotmail.com Thu May 20 06:38:27 2004 From: kirklander368 at hotmail.com (burnoweatherhead) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 06:38:27 -0000 Subject: Ginny and The Basilisk was Re: Why did Ginevra petrify Mrs. Norris anyway? In-Reply-To: <001c01c43e20$4fefd5d0$6901a8c0@brmkam> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98916 Lady Kate: > Ginny merely opened the Chamber while being posessed. I can't imagine that she hung around the basilisk > when it was loose or she would have been petrified at the > very least or worse, killed like Myrtle. > Perhaps she would be immune to its effects while posessed? There isn't canon support but I'll remark again that the only creature able to withstand the gaze of a basilisk in mythology is a weasel. I know the Weasleys aren't really weasels but I think this detail of mythology is important. JKR likes and knows her mythology well. Burno From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 20 06:52:21 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 06:52:21 -0000 Subject: Why did Ginevra petrify Mrs. Norris anyway? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98917 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > > All this talk about Ginevra has got me thinking. Why did she petrify > Mrs. Norris in CoS? Geoff: She didn't. It was the basilisk wot did it... onest, guv! :-) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 07:05:37 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 07:05:37 -0000 Subject: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98918 Potioncat asked: Do we know what happened to Nott after he was left behind by Malfoy during the battle? Were his "injuries" caused by Hermione's "stupefy"? and would that have put him out of commission for the rest of the battle? Allen responded: The key to the injuries in not so much that Nott Sr. was stunned, but that he leaped to grab Harry at the same time several towering shelves were falling down due to the Reductor Curses that had just hit them. Being stunned while a large number of heavy shelves and glass balls raining down on top of you is bound to produce a couple of cuts and bruises. As for what happened to the elder Nott after being injured, I am sure the aurors would have found him bleeding where his fellow Death Eaters had left him after the battle. Carol: Good theory. I like it better than the one where he's squished in the closing door (I don't think hermione would have used a door closing spell if a stunned person were in the way, even if he is a DE). So probably Nott (and BabyHead) were taken to St. Mungo's while the rest were carted off to Azkaban, and presumably Nott, at least, has joined his friends in prison. But as Potioncat and others noted, that leaves the motherless Theo without a parent. Anyone care to speculate on where he spent the summer? Surely not Hogwarts, since JKR says that even the teachers leave and only Filch stays behind (though I imagine Hagrid does, too, to care for the game and the grounds). Maybe he and Draco will be forced to have a little time together other than sharing a dorm room--Theo taken in by a kindly Narcissa? That doesn't fit well with what we've seen of her, but since young Nott is a pureblood, at least it wouldn't degrade her (in her view) to show him some kindness. Or maybe the Head of Slytherin House is watching over him to be sure he doesn't fall into the wrong hands? It would be really interesting if Severus Snape were young Theo's temporary guardian. At least we could be pretty sure he wouldn't get out of line! Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 08:13:39 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 08:13:39 -0000 Subject: Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98919 Geoff: I must be being a bit thick or something (please don't bother to agree!!) but where does this reference fo Ginny as Ginevra come from? > > Hickengruendler: > > From JK Rowlings official site www.jkrowling.com . The site was > completely redone, and, among other things, JKR has given background > informations about the characters annd told us about some of the > deleted scene. It really is a fun site and worth to be explored. > Anyway, on this site she stated that Ginny's name is Ginevra. The > information that Molly's maiden name is Prewett and that she is > related to the Prewetts who were killed in the First War is also from > this site. Carol: There's also some backstory on Dean Thomas, who turns out to be a "half and half" like Seamus and not a Muggle-born after all. He was originally called Gary (glad she changed it!) And of course the background on Theodore Nott, which has led to one of the few nonSHIPPING threads on the site lately. Carol, desperately hoping that someone (Kneasy? Pippin?) will come up with something new to make it worth her while to catch up on posting From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 08:27:19 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 08:27:19 -0000 Subject: Victor Krum In-Reply-To: <98.b51f061.2ddc81be@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/19/2004 1:12:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > justcarol67 at y... writes: > Fleur's mother is mentioned, but she doesn't seem to have a father, > which again raises the question of whether there are male Veelas and > if not, how a girl could be only part (presumably a quarter) Veela. > ========================== > Sherrie here: > > According to the myth on which they're based, veela are strictly female. > They mate with mortal men, but the female offspring they produce will have veela > characteristics. It's a Slavic mythos thing. > > Sherrie Carol: But JKR appears to have changed the myth since Fleur speaks of her grandmother but not her mother as a Veela and she herself is referred to as "part Veela." I doubt she'd be allowed to participate in the tournament if she were a full-blooded Veela able to turn herself into a bird when she's angry. She might not even be eligible to enter Beauxbatons, which appears to be a rather exclusive school. (Or maybe it's only Fleur's attitude toward the food and the decor that makes it seem that way.) Karkaroff, who doesn't allow Muggle-borns at his school, would certainly have raised a fuss about a non-wizard part human participating in the tournament. So would Fudge, for that matter. So my point is that JKR's Veelas apparently don't have pure Veela daughters when they "mate" with human men. Apparently Fleur's mother is half Veela and she herself is one quarter Veela--presumably they both had human fathers. But what would a true Veela's father be? A male Veela? Or, heaven forefend, a bird? Maybe it's a question we shouldn't ask. Carol From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 20 10:08:16 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:08:16 -0000 Subject: Why did Ginevra petrify Mrs. Norris anyway? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > vmonte: > > > > All this talk about Ginevra has got me thinking. Why did she > petrify > > Mrs. Norris in CoS? > > Geoff: > She didn't. It was the basilisk wot did it... onest, guv! > > :-) Geoff again: Picking up on my own reply and that of Burno (message 98916), I noticed an interesting point when I glanced at the relevant bit this morning.... '"Haven't you guessed yet, Harry Potter?" said Riddle soflty, "Ginny Weasley opened the Chamber of Secrets. She strangled the school roosters and daubed threatening messages on the walls. She set the serpent of Slytherin on four Mudbloods and the Squib's cat"' "COS "The Heir of Slytherin" p.229 UK edition) Interesting - was Mrs.Norris petrified deliberately because she belonged to a Squib? Seems a typically underhand Riddle/Voldemort sort of action. Was Filch not likely to come up against the basilisk? From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 20 10:25:31 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:25:31 -0000 Subject: Fudge & Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98922 bboy_mn wrote: > > Simple; Percy's Ministry career not having gone so well, he decides to > move to the field of education and accepts a postion as Defense > Against Dark Art teacher at Hogwarts. > > Remember, you heard it here first. > Potioncat: Ok, If Percy shows up prior to the first day of school, we'll all be reading frantically to see if you're right! (Theory: that Harry always meets DADA teacher before school) ;-) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu May 20 11:02:53 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 11:02:53 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98923 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Sirius was more heroic than we realize. By keeping himself safe, > much as he hated doing it, he protected Harry until Harry had > strength enough to survive the confrontation with Voldemort at > the MoM. > Really? This would imply that Sirius knew in advance that Harry would be meeting Voldemort in the Ministry, or at least that he would be meeting Voldy fairly soon. That's post facto rationisation IMO. Regular readers of my burblings will know that I am not a great fan of Sirius; I don't consider him to be a hero at all. Last year there were a series of threads that covered this and I stated that Sirius is a rotten role model for Harry and that he would not be considered an admirable character by most *males*. The distaff side may regard him differently, but they always seem to have a soft spot for flawed 'heroes'. Let me present the case for the prosecution by considering just what Sirius has done, achieved or inspired. If our first view of Sirius had been the one shown in 'Snape's worst Memory' what would our impression of him be? Not nice at all. Consider the passages in which he is described: "Sirius stared around at the students milling over the grass, looking rather haughty and bored, but very handsomely so." "Put that away, will you," said Sirius finally, as James made a fine catch and Wormtail let out a cheer, "before Wormtail wets himself with excitement." Lupin-"We've still got Transfiguration, if you're bored you could test me. Here.." But Sirius snorted. "I don't need to look at that rubbish, I know it all." Then Snape appears. The passage indicates that of the quartet he sees James and Sirius as his chief tormentors; naturally they attack him before he can get his wand out and Sirius (so brave!) hits him with an Impedimenta! spell after James has disarmed him. So, a conceited, patronising bully. Then there is the Secret Keeper debacle. Rotten planning by Sirius. Now he's a bungling, conceited, patronising bully. Follow this up with his massively stupid confrontation with Peter. Somehow (and there's debate on how and why) he gets out of Azkaban. Having learned nothing, his aim appears to be another attempt at homicide in the Shrieking Shack. Up-grade to a rash, bungling, conceited, patronising bully with recurring homicidal tendencies. And so we reach Grimmauld Place. Where he leaches on to Harry as his sole salvation. Very astute. His entire credibility now rests on his association with James, Lily and Harry. He pushes his position of Godfather to the limit, even though in the UK this title does not confer any authority over the Godchild or his up-bringing and is normally a purely honorary connection. Indeed, he tries to actively interfere with the plans that DD has for Harry, has a confrontation with Snape (Snape the winner on points), is dismissive of Kreacher and caps it all by accompanying Harry to the station (despite instructions/warnings) and is promptly recognised by Malfoy. Wonderful! With friends like these, who needs enemies? What's left for Sirius? A rush to the Ministry and involvement in a fight where he dies while showboating (Yah! Can't touch me!) Typical. Posturing to the end. A fitting climax for a stupid, rash, bungling, conceited, whining, patronising bully with recurring homicidal tendencies. I'll repeat a sentence I've used before - "Much better for all concerned that Sirius should be a poignant memory to Harry than be an active influence." And that's probably why he died. Kneasy From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 20 11:24:47 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 11:24:47 -0000 Subject: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98924 snipping Potioncat's first post > > Allen responded: snipping<< > > As for what happened to the elder Nott after being injured, I am sure > the aurors would have found him bleeding where his fellow Death Eaters > had left him after the battle. > > > Carol: snip > But as Potioncat and others noted, that leaves the motherless Theo > without a parent. Anyone care to speculate on where he spent the > summer? snip Maybe he and Draco will be > forced to have a little time together other than sharing a dorm > room--Theo taken in by a kindly Narcissa? snip Or maybe the Head of Slytherin House is watching over him to be sure he doesn't fall into the wrong hands? It would be really interesting if Severus Snape were young Theo's temporary guardian. At least we could be pretty sure he wouldn't get out of line! Potioncat: I started out thinking that Nott Sr, was a spy for DD...not picking up that he really had been injured. Now I wonder how Theo's situation will play into the story? We never see anyone except Harry in the summer, so unless Harry and Nott have reason to be at the same place....? Interesting too, that at the end, it's still Draco and his shadows who are after revenge, we still don't see Theo involved. And I wonder how Nott Sr.'s treatment by his fellow DE's will play into Theo's opinion of the organization? Potioncat...who can just imagine Theo and Harry (remedial OWLS) taking care of the Snape twins! From djrfdh at yahoo.com Thu May 20 11:46:12 2004 From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 11:46:12 -0000 Subject: Two thoughts....really Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98925 Has no one ever wondered why Ginny wasn't killed by the Basilisk? I mean, surely, SHE saw it up-close-and-personal.... Has anyone read the recent interview with Daniel Radcliffe about the possible outcome of the series? (He swears that JKR has told him nothing), but he suggests that perhaps Harry and Voltemort...say the name!....having "twin" wands....cancel each other out in the end....now that's a really sad ending, but it would explain why the story ends and doesn't continue past book seven. Personally, I have thought that this may be the ending....think about it....Harry has been abused his entire life and being constantly hunted by the most evil wizard in recent memory....what kind of life does he have to look forward to? How can he marry and have a family if he's always looking over his shoulder? A more likely scene would be the moment Harry decides to "surrender" himself to Voltemort and at the last moment, he also cancels him out....well, Harry could finally go "behind the veil" and rejoin his parents...thereby making the mirror of Erised's vision true..."it only shows us the most desperate desires of our hearts"....and we all know, the most desperate desire of Harry's life is to be loved.... From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 20 11:45:35 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 11:45:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98926 Kneasy wrote: > > Regular readers of my burblings will know that I am not a great > fan of Sirius; I don't consider him to be a hero at all. Last year > there were a series of threads that covered this and I stated > that Sirius is a rotten role model for Harry and that he would > not be considered an admirable character by most *males*. The > distaff side may regard him differently, but they always seem to > have a soft spot for flawed 'heroes'. > >snip<. Indeed, he tries to actively interfere with the plans > that DD has for Harry, has a confrontation with Snape (Snape the > winner on points), is dismissive of Kreacher and caps it all by > accompanying Harry to the station (despite instructions/warnings) > and is promptly recognised by Malfoy. > Wonderful! With friends like these, who needs enemies? Potioncat: This member of the distaff side doesn't care for Sirius either. (Me and Molly, what can I say?) I really don't know why Jo was so upset at "killing" him off, unless it was because of the pain it was causing Harry. One of your examples was the confrontation with Snape....I cannot understand why Sirius would undermine DD's order! It certainly didn't make Harry's situation any better. Or course, he wasn't very good at following orders at all, was he? Except that I cannot get all the pieces together, I'd suggest ESE/Sirius, because I also agree his escape from Azkaban looks very fishy! Potioncat, who will keep Snape as her "flawed" hero. From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu May 20 12:03:03 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 12:03:03 -0000 Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: <004401c43e0b$d97878d0$982c56d2@Angel> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98927 Gina wrote: I have a theory about this. Slytherin's "Heir" was often referred to in the singular. There is no other mention of the Chamber ever being opened other than Riddle Jr's time in school and revisiting of Hogwarts via his diary in Harry's time - Dumbledore was adamant in the hosp wing that it WAS Voldemort responsible then too, even before it was made known. What if - all the Slytherin descendents were female until Tom Riddle Jnr? And the missing ingredient all that time was Muggle blood, because being pureblood fanatics the females refused to intermarry? vmonte responds: Is that why he put the entrance to the chamber in a girl's bathroom? vmonte From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu May 20 12:08:33 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 12:08:33 -0000 Subject: Victor Krum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98928 justcarol wrote: Carol, who thinks there must be male Veelas and female leprechauns, but that both are very rare, like female dwarves in LOTR ("It's the beards.") Neri (sitting at home with a nasty allergy and finding solace in pestering the HPFG group): Speaking as a biologist, the elegant solution to your problem above seems quite clear: leprechauns and veelas are the males and females of the same, highly di-morphic species. Once per 17 years (say) in the spring they both meet for a mating season on a remote island in the arctic ocean. Pregnancy is only 3 months or so, after which the leprechauns take the male babies with them to Ireland and the Veelas take the female babies to eastern Europe. Both leprechauns and veelas seem to be rather embarrassed of their other sex since they keep this as a dark secret. This explains the enmity between them in the QWC and also why the leprechauns are immune to the veela charm. I guess they are only susceptible to it during the mating season when the sex hormones peek. In contrast, Veela sexual drive is apparently active all the time, so between mating seasons they vent it by tempting humans. Neri (groping for the kleenex) From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 12:09:57 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 05:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: <004401c43e0b$d97878d0$982c56d2@Angel> Message-ID: <20040520120957.7910.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98929 Gina: What if - all the Slytherin descendents were female until Tom Riddle Jnr? And the missing ingredient all that time was Muggle blood, because being pureblood fanatics the females refused to intermarry? Gina animallover_11: I think this is where the information about Ginny being the first Female Weasley in many generations comes in to play. Tom Jr was the first male in many generations and that is why I think it is more likely that his mother left his father. She knew what Tom Jr would be and what he needed to due. She probably did not know until he was born but would not be willing to take any chances of Tom Sr messing up her heritage. The only way that Tom Jr would be able to fulfill his "destiny" is to be in the WW. I don;t think she expected him to be raised in the Orphanage but that was better than by a loving father. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From djrfdh at yahoo.com Thu May 20 12:36:40 2004 From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 12:36:40 -0000 Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98930 > > > vmonte responds: > > Is that why he put the entrance to the chamber in a girl's bathroom? > > vmonte I still think perhaps Harry's mother was a Slytherin....and it has been suggested, although not confirmed, that she was "muggle-born" djrfdh.....wondering From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu May 20 13:05:27 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 13:05:27 -0000 Subject: Why did Ginevra petrify Mrs. Norris anyway? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98931 > > vmonte: > > > > All this talk about Ginevra has got me thinking. Why did she > petrify > > Mrs. Norris in CoS? > > Geoff: > She didn't. It was the basilisk wot did it... onest, guv! > > :-) Geoff again: '"Haven't you guessed yet, Harry Potter?" said Riddle soflty, "Ginny Weasley opened the Chamber of Secrets. She strangled the school roosters and daubed threatening messages on the walls. She set the serpent of Slytherin on four Mudbloods and the Squib's cat"' "COS "The Heir of Slytherin" p.229 UK edition) Interesting - was Mrs.Norris petrified deliberately because she belonged to a Squib? Neri now: Actually, I think starting with Mrs. Norris was a calculating and smart move of Diary!Tom. She was always spying after rule-breakers in the corridors, and unlike Filch she was able to hear and smell the basilisk as he was crawling through the pipes. Clearing the corridors of her perpetual presence was a prerequisite for the successful execution of the subsequent attacks. Her being a squib's cat was only a bonus. Neri From sophierom at yahoo.com Thu May 20 13:07:53 2004 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (Christina Kopp) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 06:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's end (was: Two thoughts....really) In-Reply-To: <1085053628.11222.23450.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040520130753.37891.qmail@web90003.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98932 djrfdh wrote: Sophierom: Just coming out of lurkdom for a moment to say that I really hope that this is not the end for Harry. Yes, yes, I know this has been discussed a billion times already, but if Harry must die, please don't let it be because he was an abused kid who had such a hard life that a post-Voldemort world would simply be impossible for him. That's a really depressing thought ... that those of out there who've grown up with enormous pain and suffering can never achieve happiness except through death. Rather suicidal, and an idea that I hope JKR wouldn't promote. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains Claim yours for only $14.70/year http://smallbusiness.promotions.yahoo.com/offer From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 20 13:20:16 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 13:20:16 -0000 Subject: Victor Krum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98933 snipping question about only female veelas and only male lepredhauns Neri wrote: > > Speaking as a biologist, the elegant solution to your problem above > seems quite clear: leprechauns and veelas are the males and females > of the same, highly di-morphic species. Once per 17 years (say) in > the spring they both meet for a mating season on a remote island in > the arctic ocean. > Potioncat: Does that mean veela and Leprechaun are related to the cicada? Potioncat who is very tired of the dead cicadas on the sidewalk and think they would made excellent role models for some of Jo's magical critters. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu May 20 14:08:22 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:08:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98934 Huh, well, I'm not sure we can use that scene as evidence for either SHIP. I would agree with those who say that Hermione is simply jealous of *Fleur*, not because of either boys. And by the way, I'd like to add that I'm surprised that Hermione wouldn't have learned during her holidays in France that kissing on the cheeks doesn't mean much for French people. Fleur wasn't doing anything more than saying thank you in the best way she knows. When I'm offered a gift, I say thank you and kiss the person who gave the present to me, whoever it might be. It doesn't mean anything. I'm in fact surprised that oh-so-smart Hermione didn't see it coming :-) Fleur *had* to go and kiss Harry, she was supposed to in order to be polite, so she would probably have done it even if she hadn't felt true gratitude towards Harry. Del, who loves it when Hermione lets her emotions rule over her brain once in a while :-) Gina: I think the irritation was with Ron BUT because he was obviously lying about helping so he WOULD get a kiss. If you remember Ron went on for days retelling the events in different versions. I think Hermione is annoyed at Ron's need for approval and eagerness for attention - another reason I do not think she will go for him. Have you ever noticed Hermione LISTENS when Harry has an idea and if Ron does 9/10 she blows it off as ridiculous before he ever finishes? ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu May 20 14:48:44 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:48:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny and The Basilisk was Re: Why did Ginev ra petrify Mrs. Norris anyway? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98935 * Ginny merely opened the Chamber while being posessed. I can't imagine that she hung around the basilisk > when it was loose or she would have been petrified at the > very least or worse, killed like Myrtle. > Perhaps she would be immune to its effects while posessed? There isn't canon support but I'll remark again that the only creature able to withstand the gaze of a basilisk in mythology is a weasel. I know the Weasleys aren't really weasels but I think this detail of mythology is important. JKR likes and knows her mythology well. Burno Gina: * Maybe Ginny can become one. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu May 20 14:53:17 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:53:17 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > One of your examples was the confrontation with Snape....I cannot > understand why Sirius would undermine DD's order! It certainly > didn't make Harry's situation any better. Or course, he wasn't very > good at following orders at all, was he? > > Except that I cannot get all the pieces together, I'd suggest > ESE/Sirius, because I also agree his escape from Azkaban looks very > fishy! > > Potioncat, who will keep Snape as her "flawed" hero. It's eminently possible to interpret almost all of Sirius' actions as those of a Voldy agent and very difficult to justify those same actions as reasonable behaviour by a committed member of the Order who accepts DD as unquestioned leader. For good or ill there is no incontrovertible evidence of ESE!Sirius, just varying levels of suspicion. Of course, the many apologists for Sirius seem to consider that because he said (or pretended) that he loved Harry, everything else could be forgiven, dismissed or ignored. After all, anyone who loves Harry must be good, right? No, not necessarily. Those that argue that the Harry/Sirius axis is a heart-warming, sensitive, let's-comfort-Harry aspect of the stories tend to look at this love-fest in isolation - it's just Harry and Sirius. But it's not. It has much wider repercussions - on the Order and on Voldy's actions. It is part of an intricate plot-line, everything else doesn't stop just because they are into male bonding. What Harry may learn from this episode is that emotional involvements are bad for you. They may be hazardous to your health. Harry is emotionally vulnerable. On the basis of a few fraught minutes in the Shrieking Shack he believes that he has an emotional anchor, a replacement for his lost family. How much time have Harry and Sirius actually spent together? Not much - and almost zero time without someone else being present. Does Harry really know Sirius? No. He's made a judgement based on his emotional needs. Dodgy, very dodgy. Naturally, Harry won't hear a word against Sirius no matter what he does or what others may say- but Harry cannot be objective; he has a vested interest in Sirius being what he wants him to be. But just because Harry wants something to be so doesn't automatically mean that it is so, and mostly, except for the occasional glimpse (such as in Snape's Worst Memory) it is Harry's view that is presented to us. The fact that Harry is inclined to give more weight to Sirius's views or opinions that they actually warrant makes Sirius highly dangerous. Whether the danger stems from Sirius's impetuosity and desire to be the sole or major influence on Harry from now on, or from a more malign motivation is arguable. The results would probably be catastrophic in either case. So - Sirius has to go. He's a liability. Now did he fall valiantly in battling the enemy or was he removed by the 'good' side before he could do too much damage? Kneasy From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu May 20 15:13:36 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 15:13:36 -0000 Subject: Funny little coincidence - names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98937 I know it's been pointed out that "Mrs. Norris" is the name of a particularly nasty character in Jane Austen's 'Mansfield Park.' Well, I'm re-reading 'Mansfield Park' right now, and came across this little passage: 'How long ago is it, aunt, since we used to repeat the chronological order of the kings of England, with the dates of their accession, and most of the principal events of their reigns!' 'Yes,' added the other; 'and of the Roman emperors as low as Severus...' I'll bet Rowling first came across the name in this way, maybe before she even began to write the text. It might have just stuck in her mind as a very appropriate name for a real SOB, and Snape developed accordingly. Wanda From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu May 20 15:35:17 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 15:35:17 -0000 Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98938 Gina wrote: > Okay let me clarify - I know it is possible Tom could be >related "heir" of Slytherin, but why would SS RECOGNIZE a mudblood >as his heir? Does that make more sense? Yes, they could be related, >but why would Slytherin condone this mudblood messing up the >perfectly pure family tree? > Jason wrote: > Maybe Salazar himself wasn't a pureblood. Does it > specifically say he was in canon? I've thought all along that he > shared the same sort of past as Voldemort and thats just one of the >many reasons V turned out the way he did. Mandy replies: Although I doubt it, it is possible until we heve canon that Slytherin may not have been a pure blood himself. After all Hitler was not a German. Personally I think S. Slytherin was a pure blood but either way, as I wrote before SSlytherin, did not have had any choice if Tom Riddle Jr., was his only remaining ancestor and as such, the only one who could have opened the Chamber. It would have meant abandoning his plan for ever. Beggars can't be choosers even if they are evil overlords. > djrfdh wrote: > I still think perhaps Harry's mother was a Slytherin....and it has > been suggested, although not confirmed, that she was "muggle-born" Mandy replies: Sorry djrfdh, but Jo herself has stated that Lily was in Gryffindor. (Even though I would have loved to have had her in Slytherin.) And I think it is accepted as canon that Lily and Petunia's parents were both muggles as Snape calls Lily a `Mudblood' in OotP, Snapes Worst Memory. As it is stands the term `Mudblood' has only been used to insult the offspring of muggles, not half-bloods or any other degree of mixed blood status, so it seem that an insult that specific would have been corrected it indeed Lily anything but muggle born. Mandy From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu May 20 15:35:24 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 15:35:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98939 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: So - Sirius has to go. He's a liability. > > Now did he fall valiantly in battling the enemy or was he removed > by the 'good' side before he could do too much damage? > > Kneasy Carolyn Oh dear.. I've suddenly become terribly gloomy that even Mr Arrowsmith has decided we are in for a dull moral conclusion. Sirius is indeed the classic, impetuous bad boy..and Harry instinctively responds in spades. What was that wonderful Jane Austen remark - 'the pleasantness of an employment does not always evince its propriety'. Absolutely...and that wicked spark has been stamped out in both of them by the OOP squad determined that Harry will do exactly what he's told and save their skins, if not his own. Alas, Harry has been forced back on to the path of righteousness, his coordinates locked back on to his true mission - to save the WW, marry Hermione or someone or other ghastly, and leave us all bathed in a golden glow that He Did the Right Thing, Even If It Was The Dull Thing, and possibly even His Last Thing. Children of the world take note. Bleh....no wonder 'I love Draco' societies flourish. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 20 15:45:59 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 15:45:59 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98940 > Neri: > Hmmm, so do you say that if it were Lupin or Arthur, not Sirius, tortured by LV in the DoM in that false vision, Harry wouldn't have flown to London to rescue them? > I think he would. Perhaps not with so much fervor, but had he thought he is the only one who can do something about it, he would. As Hermione accurately diagnosed, Harry has a "people-saving thing"< Pippin: Hmmm...so you think what Dumbledore calls 'moral fibre' and Hermione labels 'the saving people thing' is the same as the power behind the door? I don't. There is a special bond between Harry and Sirius, though I don't expect to convince you of this if JKR couldn't. At any rate, Dumbledore and Kreacher perceived it, though they'd seen Harry with Arthur and Lupin too. The one thing Voldemort understands about love is that people are willing to compromise their principles for it. The hostage had to be someone who would bring Harry to the Ministry *even if* Harry knew why Voldemort was plotting to get him there. What's complicated is that Harry didn't know as much as Voldemort thought he did, and so Harry didn't realize there was a moral dilemma--he'd have handed over the prophecy for Neville if the Order hadn't shown up in time. I agree with Neri (and Kneasy ) that Dumbledore couldn't have anticipated that Voldemort would learn about the Harry-Sirius bond from Kreacher. But he might well have feared that Voldemort would learn about it from *Sirius* . If Sirius fell into Voldemort's hands, Voldemort might find he had captured not simply an Order member but one who could be used against Harry himself. Sirius was the weapon. Did he know it? I think he did. Pippin who salutes Kneasy for steadfastly defending EverSoEvil!Sirius theory, but thinks he has the wrong man From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu May 20 15:47:26 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 15:47:26 -0000 Subject: Victor Krum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98941 snipping question about only female veelas and only male lepredhauns Neri wrote: > > Speaking as a biologist, the elegant solution to your problem above > seems quite clear: leprechauns and veelas are the males and females > of the same, highly di-morphic species. Once per 17 years (say) in > the spring they both meet for a mating season on a remote island in > the arctic ocean. > Potioncat: Does that mean veela and Leprechaun are related to the cicada? Neri again: Only in the hazy mind of the biologist. Too much antihistamines, most likely. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu May 20 15:49:35 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 15:49:35 -0000 Subject: website and canon = Caution and Delight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98942 >drjuliehoward wrote: > Is JKR's new website considered canon, given that the other > books, chocolate frog cards, etc., are? Mandy here: I've been reading the whole thread on this and what we all have to remember is: REDHERINGS!! All in the name of fun, of course. But don't forget Jo loves to play with us. She wants to keep us guessing and in doing so, is going to love feeding us tidbits that are as likely to lead us down the wrong path as the right one. Just because she wants to debunk some rumors put out there by others, it may not mean that she isn't going to start some of her own. Didn't she say somewhere that one of her favorite authors was Agather Christie? I think the site is definitely canon, but is also going to be full of trapdoors, red hearings, maguffins and all manner or wonderful tricks. I can't wait. Way to go, Jo! From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 20 16:00:07 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 16:00:07 -0000 Subject: Two thoughts....really In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "djrfdh" wrote: > Has anyone read the recent interview with Daniel Radcliffe about > the possible outcome of the series? (He swears that JKR has told > him nothing), but he suggests that perhaps Harry and > Voltemort...say the name!....having "twin" wands....cancel each > other out in the end....now that's a really sad ending, but it > would explain why the story ends and doesn't continue past book > seven. > > Personally, I have thought that this may be the ending....think > about it....Harry has been abused his entire life and being > constantly hunted by the most evil wizard in recent memory....what > kind of life does he have to look forward to? How can he marry and > have a family if he's always looking over his shoulder? A more > likely scene would be the moment Harry decides to "surrender" > himself to Voltemort and at the last moment, he also cancels him > out....well, Harry could finally go "behind the veil" and rejoin > his parents...thereby making the mirror of Erised's vision > true..."it only shows us the most desperate desires of our > hearts"....and we all know, the most desperate desire of Harry's > life is to be loved.... SSSusan: Ummmm. I guess I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for Harry to actually KILL Voldemort? I can see where it might be that they DO end up killing each other/"canceling each other out", but why would Harry decide he MUST surrender himself? Why not just go out there-- as he's shown he's wont to do--and just take Voldy on with the hope of defeating him? If he's successful, then he won't *have* to look over his shoulder anymore...not for VOLDY anyway...and he *would* be free to move on in life. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see why it's either keep hiding or surrender himself. Why can't he WIN? Siriusly Snapey Susan...one of several on this list, I believe, who think Harry would have quite a nice life to look forward to, even if there is loss & sadness & regret (or loss of powers!). From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Thu May 20 15:58:10 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:58:10 -0500 Subject: Slytherin Lily (Was: Re: another LV - Riddle question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98944 Mandy wrote: Sorry djrfdh, but Jo herself has stated that Lily was in Gryffindor. (Even though I would have loved to have had her in Slytherin.) And I think it is accepted as canon that Lily and Petunia's parents were both muggles as Snape calls Lily a `Mudblood' in OotP, Snapes Worst Memory. As it is stands the term `Mudblood' has only been used to insult the offspring of muggles, not half-bloods or any other degree of mixed blood status, so it seem that an insult that specific would have been corrected it indeed Lily anything but muggle born. Lady Macbeth replies: I've been of the opinion that Lily was in Gryffindor HOUSE, but was a DESCENDANT of Slytherin. Yes, Snape calls Lily a Mudblood - but for whatever reason, Fudge and the other examiners didn't recognize Arabella Figg as a squib. I got the impression that they thought she was some Muggle that Dumbledore dug up, and were going to try to get him in trouble for that until she said she was a squib. And even after that revelation, they didn't want to believe that a squib could see or sense a Dementor. I'm thinking that both of Lily's parents were squibs, and that the family had possibly been non-magical so long that the magical world forgot about that branch. After all, if pureblood families like the Blacks are willing to erase all record of a family member for something as tame as marrying a Muggleborn or giving money to a hated nephew, then there's no reason they couldn't just forget about a branch of the family that was non-magical. After all, Molly Weasley has that cousin who's an accountant, but the family never talks about. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop, from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu May 20 16:13:13 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 16:13:13 -0000 Subject: Random facts about the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98945 Mimi: > Now we know who the Prewetts are and their connection to people in > Harry's immediate world, and the Bones are his classmates Susan > Bones' relatives. Who are the McKinnons, and do we know if they > connect to anyone close to Harry? > > Mimi, who is far from her books so can't look it up Antosha: I too am away from my books, but I got this far just by poking around hp-lexicon.org... Marlene McKinnon was a member of the first Order of the Phoenix (Moody showing Harry the picture of the Order, OotP chapter 9). We've been told in SS/PS chapter 4 (Hagrid yelling at the Durselys) and GoF chapter 30 (where Karkarov accuses Travers (?) of their murder) that Voldemort and his gang were responsible for the deaths of Marlene and her entire family and that--along with the Bones and the Prewetts--they were among the finest wizards of the age. And that's about it. Perhaps the McKinnons were Potter cousins? Antosha, who wishes he had a searchable e-text of the HP series.... From liz at studylink.com Thu May 20 16:21:31 2004 From: liz at studylink.com (liz) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 17:21:31 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin Lily (Was: Re: another LV - Riddle question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98946 > Mandy wrote: > Sorry djrfdh, but Jo herself has stated that Lily was in Gryffindor. > (Even though I would have loved to have had her in Slytherin.) > > > Lady Macbeth replies: > > I've been of the opinion that Lily was in Gryffindor HOUSE, but was a > DESCENDANT of Slytherin. Yes, Snape calls Lily a Mudblood - but for Liz now: In the rumours section on the website JKR says: "And hasn't Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin." She's pretty emphatic there. I don't think you can wiggle around that one. If Harry is not a descendent of SS, neither is Lily. Liz From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu May 20 16:27:41 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 16:27:41 -0000 Subject: Nott, Malfoy and Narcissa. Re: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98947 > Carol: > Good theory. But as Potioncat and others noted, that leaves >the motherless Theo without a parent. Theo taken in by a >kindly Narcissa? That doesn't fit well with what we've seen of her, >but since young Nott is a pureblood, at least it wouldn't degrade >her (in her view) to show him some kindness. Mandy here: I'm interested in how you can make that particular judgment of Narcissa when we know so little about her, and what we do know actually points to her being a kindly, loving mother toward her son Draco. What we've seen of Narcissa Malfoy is at the Quidditch World Cup, when she was described as wearing a look as if she had something bad smelling under her nose. Well, when she realizes she is going too have to share the "royal" box with almost the entire dirt poor Weasley clan, a mudblood girl and that halfblood boy, Potter frankly, I'm not surprised at her reaction, when you consider her upbringing, her wealth and her position in the community. "What is the WW coming too!" I'm not saying she was right in her judgment of the situation, she is seen to be arrogant and snobbish when considering those beneath her, but a reflection on her abilities as a mother? I don't think so. What we know of Narcissa is that she wanted her son to attend school at home in Britain, when her husband wanted to send Draco away to Europe, and that she regularly sends her son gifts at school, which is, imo, something Molly Weasley would do if she only had the money. Narcissa does have the evil Bellatrix as a sister, but she also has Andromeda for a sister as well, showing that compassionate blood does run on that side of the Black family too. I don't think Narcissa would never take in a non-pureblooded child, we know her husband would never allow it even if she wanted to, but as you point out above, young Nott is indeed a pureblood himself, so I can easily see Narcissa taking him in for the summer if not longer. I think Narcissa is selective who she chooses to be compassionate about, just as I'm sure she is selective about who she socializes with, and a fellow pureblood would qualify. I'm sure Lucius wouldn't mind either, except that his is prison. It would only be an advantage for Lucius Malfoy to have an orphaned pureblood under his wing as a second son, to use as he sees fit. Cheers Mandy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 20 16:41:02 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 16:41:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98948 Kneasy wrote: > > Regular readers of my burblings will know that I am not a great > > fan of Sirius; I don't consider him to be a hero at all. Last year > > there were a series of threads that covered this and I stated > > that Sirius is a rotten role model for Harry and that he would > > not be considered an admirable character by most *males*. The > > distaff side may regard him differently, but they always seem to > > have a soft spot for flawed 'heroes'. > > > >snip< > > Indeed, he tries to actively interfere with the plans > > that DD has for Harry, has a confrontation with Snape (Snape the > > winner on points), is dismissive of Kreacher and caps it all by > > accompanying Harry to the station (despite instructions/warnings) > > and is promptly recognised by Malfoy. > > Wonderful! With friends like these, who needs enemies? Potioncat: > This member of the distaff side doesn't care for Sirius either. (Me > and Molly, what can I say?) I really don't know why Jo was so > upset at "killing" him off, unless it was because of the pain it > was causing Harry. SSSusan: This member of the distaff side, while recognizing certain failings in Sirius, does mark herself as a fan. I'll even weakly admit that a part of it has to do w/ his sexiness. On the other hand, I think Potioncat has hit on something here w/ her suggestion that perhaps it was so hard for JKR to write Sirius' death **because of the pain it was causing Harry.** This is the *main* reason for my own sadness over his death: Harry has lost ANOTHER adult whom he loved *and* it was the adult he hoped to get to be a kid with, share a home with, share a life with. Sirius was surly; Sirius could be quite juvenile; certainly teenaged Sirius proved himself a git on occasion and Kneasy & others would argue he did so again as an adult. But when Harry BELIEVED him in PoA, when Harry was filled with JOY at the end of PoA at the thought of having a "real family" again, I was filled with happiness for him, too. Whether they would have ended up being GOOD for one another or not is certainly open to contemplation & argument, but for me, that's not what it was about. For me, I was simply identifying with Harry, and feeling his hopefulness and joy at the thought that someone cared enough for him to come after him, to protect him, to WANT to share a life with him. Taking all that away from him before it ever had a chance to come to fruition *really* sucked. IMO, of course. Siriusly Snapey Susan From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 16:43:50 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 16:43:50 -0000 Subject: Let's not forget Viktor ! (was: Clues for SHIPS...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98949 > > Del, who would have thought Viktor was just a plot device in GoF if > only Hermione wasn't still writing to him in OoP. Exactly. I think he's going to be rather prominent in the next two books. His former headmaster, Karkaroff, has a nasty connection with the DEs, he fled, etc. And Krum IS an excellent flyer, and he likes Hermione (how much he likes her, we don't know yet, but she IS a m&*blood)so if he was only a plot device for GoF, then why mention Hermione still writing to him in OoP? I think he's going to come back. And further, since Hagrid et al are trying to unite the WW not just in the UK, but apparently all of Europe, then I think we're going to see kids from Durmstrang and Beaubaton coming to help fight in the war. Susan (just my two knuts) From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 16:55:25 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040520165525.64282.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98950 pippin: I don't. There is a special bond between Harry and Sirius, though I don't expect to convince you of this if JKR couldn't. At any rate, Dumbledore and Kreacher perceived it, though they'd seen Harry with Arthur and Lupin too. Pippin animallover_11: I think that pippin is right about the bond that is shared between Harry and Sirius but I think she is not giving credit to the bond with Arthur Weasley. Harry provied in OoP that he would risk just about everything to save Arthur. When he awoke from the dream about Arthurs attack he went crazy trying to get to DD to get him help. He risked alot in his panic running to DD and going to Grimmuald place. I am not sure what his reaction would be if Lupin was in trouble but I think it is safe to assume that it would be very little compared to Sirius or Arthur. However now that Sirius is dead this may change how Harry interacts with Lupin. I am not sure if he will become closer to him looking for the "father" figure or if he will start avoiding everyone so that nobody can get close to him. It is more likely that he is going to start cutting himself off from everyone so nobody else gets hurt. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 17:06:37 2004 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (Regina Olshan) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: meta analysis of rumor section of JKR site In-Reply-To: <1085068924.2768.93854.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040520170637.97333.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98951 What I find most interesting in the site is not so much the new info in the rumors section (I was not a believer in any of the rumors that she busts) but the attitude JKR displays towards them. The attitude seems to come in three flavors: 1. legitimate or expected question: "is LP still alive", "will there be prequels, "is Crookshanks/animagus/kneazle", "does Lupin have a twin", "will HP be MOM", "can prefects take points" "questions re book names, sizes, timing, etc." 2. the answer is obvious/how can you ask in light of info in the books: "is Dumbledore HP's grandfather", "is HP/Voldermort or Slytherin descendant", "does H like H or R" 3. outrage at the misunderstanding that such a view could even be held by a reader: "was Lily a DE" "is Neville PP's son" It strikes me that the attitude underlying the responses suggests that the darker or "more adult" predictions, or ones involving betrayal by beloved characters, or ones that contradict already laid down information by explaining it away, are unlikely to be true. Does anyone else get that impression or am I getting carried away because this is more in tune with my natural approach to the series? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains Claim yours for only $14.70/year http://smallbusiness.promotions.yahoo.com/offer From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 20 17:28:52 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 17:28:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98952 snipping only a little ;-) > Kneasy wrote > Now did he fall valiantly in battling the enemy or was he removed > by the 'good' side before he could do too much damage? > Potioncat: Uhoh, I'm getting all the theories mixed up. Would that be ESE! Lupin killing Sirius or Lupin killing ESE!Sirius? (I presume it's Lupin you're hinting at...) OK, I'll ask: If Sirius was a Voldy agent, why did he just sit still in 12 Grimmauld Place and do nothing when he had all those opportunities to deliver Harry to LV? Potioncat, who, like Carol, would like some more non-shipping threads From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 17:52:18 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040520175218.9091.qmail@web13809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98953 Potioncat: Uhoh, I'm getting all the theories mixed up. Would that be ESE! Lupin killing Sirius or Lupin killing ESE!Sirius? (I presume it's Lupin you're hinting at...) OK, I'll ask: If Sirius was a Voldy agent, why did he just sit still in 12 Grimmauld Place and do nothing when he had all those opportunities to deliver Harry to LV? Potioncat, who, like Carol, would like some more non-shipping threads animallover_11: If Sirius was one of LV's agents than it makes sense that he would help lead him to the MoM. He would not want to do anything obvious or he would risk being discovered. This would be similar to snap trying to kill LV, the cover would be blown and they would be of no use. There was discussion awhile back about how Kreacher knew when to "hurt" Buckbeak so Sirius would not be around for Harry to talk to. Up until now I did not think too much about it. But now with this thread (and the ever so clever Kneasy) I am thinking that Sirius was deliberately not around. He was in contact with LV and made the arrangements to "trap" Harry. Sirius was never concerned when Kreacher was gone and "thought" he was just in the attic...but maybe he knew where he was because he sent Kreacher to the Malfoys to get his instructions. Sirius was removed form the family tree but it is possible that he removed himself not his mother. His mother (well the portrait) just kept yelling at him about being a traitor. We assume it is because he is on the good side but it is possibly because he is letting the good side use his house. If it was the good side that took out Sirius this could explain why Lupin was so reserved in his reaction to the death. DD was also very matter of fact about the death. It is possible that the Order members figured out that Sirius, all though wrongly accused of the Potter murders, was working with LV along. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu May 20 18:36:47 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 18:36:47 -0000 Subject: website and canon = Caution and Delight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98954 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > >drjuliehoward wrote: > > Is JKR's new website considered canon, given that the other > > books, chocolate frog cards, etc., are? > > > Mandy here: > I've been reading the whole thread on this and what we all have to > remember is: > > REDHERINGS!! > > All in the name of fun, of course. > > But don't forget Jo loves to play with us. She wants to keep us > guessing and in doing so, is going to love feeding us tidbits that > are as likely to lead us down the wrong path as the right one. Just > because she wants to debunk some rumors put out there by others, it > may not mean that she isn't going to start some of her own. > > Didn't she say somewhere that one of her favorite authors was Agather > Christie? > > I think the site is definitely canon, but is also going to be full of > trapdoors, red hearings, maguffins and all manner or wonderful > tricks. I can't wait. > > Way to go, Jo! Antosha: Well, now that you put it that way, of COURSE there are red herrings in there. It's what she does best--spread information and disinformation at the same time. Speaking of favorite authors, did anyone else enjoy scanning the bookshelf in the links section? Jane Austen, E. Nesbit, Katherine Mansfield, Dorothy L. Sayers (rather than Christie), Roddy Doyle..... :-) From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 20 18:53:32 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 18:53:32 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: <20040520175218.9091.qmail@web13809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98955 snipping Potioncat's post > > animallover_11 responds: > If Sirius was one of LV's agents than it makes sense that he would help lead him to the MoM. He would not want to do anything obvious or he would risk being discovered. This would be similar to Snape trying to kill LV, the cover would be blown and they would be of no use. > There was discussion awhile back about how Kreacher knew when to "hurt" Buckbeak so Sirius would not be around for Harry to talk to. Up until now I did not think too much about it. But now with this thread (and the ever so clever Kneasy) I am thinking that Sirius was deliberately not around. He was in contact with LV and made the arrangements to "trap" Harry. >snip< Potioncat: And how would Peter fit into this? Oh, Oh, I get it! The little rat sneaks into 12 Grimmauld Place to give ESE!Sirius LV's instructions. ESC!Kneasy may be onto something! But how about the battle with Bella? Tricks? Potioncat: who reserves the right to not make up her mind. But to have a lot of fun. From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Thu May 20 18:54:06 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 18:54:06 -0000 Subject: meta analysis of rumor section of JKR site In-Reply-To: <20040520170637.97333.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98956 Regina Olshan wrote: > It strikes me that the attitude underlying the > responses suggests that the darker or "more adult" > predictions, or ones involving betrayal by beloved > characters, or ones that contradict already laid down > information by explaining it away, are unlikely to be > true. Does anyone else get that impression or am I > getting carried away because this is more in tune with > my natural approach to the series? Lady Macbeth replied: It's not just you. If I didn't want to have fun and explore the possibilities, I could probably lay out the general idea of the last two books right now. I tend to fall victim to forgetting my own preaching - these are CHILDRENS' books. JK's already said that she won't go into topics children shouldn't have to deal with - teen pregnancy and the like. I expect that, contrary to a lot of fan fiction and theories, we'll see a lot of the following: - The books will continue to be secular in nature. Can't offend some readers who aren't Christian, but JK is Christian herself and won't want to offend God or the Church by having any of the characters (except a heniously evil one, like Voldemort) be anything but. - Draco Malfoy and the other Slytherin children will continue to be flat, easily read characters. Those with Death Eaters as fathers (such as Draco) will continue to be increasingly antagonistic toward Harry and his friends for no good or given reason. ("You're a good guy - we hate you" kind of mentality.) Near the final battle, one "good" Slytherin may show up to help "unite" the four houses, as the Hat suggested was necessary. - Harry will learn to put his own needs aside "for the good of the whole". - Harry will have to deal with the loss of another close friend to help foster his resolve to end the war and the suffering of everyone. But, as I said, I like to pretend I don't know that the books are for kids and play with the possibilities. That being said, I'm not going to buy the "Harry is NOT a descendant of Salazar Slytherin" rumor-buster at face value. I will be creative and call upon my experience and knowledge in genealogy to remind me and other devotees of this theory that patriarchal societies trace descent through the father - that's why Voldemort's a Riddle, not a Slytherin. GENETICS, on the other hand, go through both, and when doing DNA testing, the maternal side has to be tested through mitochondrial DNA - genetic codes that are passed through the MOTHER. Remember, Tom Riddle Sr was a muggle - Voldemort got his "inheritance" of Salazar Slytherin's bloodline and talents from his mother. Harry very well would not be considered a descendant of Salazar Slytherin - because I never inferred or believed that James was. LILY, on the other hand, is a whole different can of worms. ;) -Lady Macbeth From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu May 20 18:56:39 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 18:56:39 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98957 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > > Carolyn > Oh dear.. I've suddenly become terribly gloomy that even Mr > Arrowsmith has decided we are in for a dull moral conclusion. > > Sirius is indeed the classic, impetuous bad boy..and Harry > instinctively responds in spades. What was that wonderful Jane Austen > remark - 'the pleasantness of an employment does not always evince > its propriety'. Absolutely...and that wicked spark has been stamped > out in both of them by the OOP squad determined that Harry will do > exactly what he's told and save their skins, if not his own. > > Alas, Harry has been forced back on to the path of righteousness, his > coordinates locked back on to his true mission - to save the WW, > marry Hermione or someone or other ghastly, and leave us all bathed > in a golden glow that He Did the Right Thing, Even If It Was The Dull > Thing, and possibly even His Last Thing. Children of the world take > note. Bleh....no wonder 'I love Draco' societies flourish. You underestimate my propensity for violence, betrayal, mayhem and murder. Moral? The only moral is don't turn your back to a friend. Well, maybe that's a slight exaggeration. No, Harry is not (or at least not willingly) ready to become the saviour of the WW. I fully expect that in the coming book he will make concerted efforts to deny the future that DD has mapped out for him. He wants nothing to do with it and will try to opt out. His parents dead, Sirius dead - not exactly encouraging examples for an impressionable young lad. A most reluctant hero. This will cause no end of trouble, ending in unfortunate deaths (how nice!) for which Harry may be presumed to bear some moral blame. ("If you'd done your duty it wouldn't have happened!") Weapon!Harry becomes Stroppy!Harry becomes Repentant!Harry before strapping on his wand for the final showdown in book 7. Marry Hermione? Don't be silly - he'd rather face Voldy. Who the hell would want to marry Hermione? Dentists daughters learn how to inflict pain at a very young age and Hermione has learned well. I can hear her now - "It's for your own good!" Kneasy From burgess at cynjut.net Thu May 20 19:00:20 2004 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:00:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Fudge In-Reply-To: <1085000362.11359.37099.m6@yahoogroups.com> References: <1085000362.11359.37099.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <58802.143.250.2.102.1085079620.squirrel@www2.neonramp.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98958 >Animallover_11 wrote: >> I think the key to this is that he "Ran out of Town". This makes >>his exit sound more by choice like he was scared of the results of >>his lack of actions. There has been some discussion on what side >>Fudge is on.....this could lead to proving that he was working with >>LV along. >> > > >Potioncat: >In American English a headline that read "Fudge Ran Out of Town" >would mean that the townspeople ran him out, or more likely here, he >was forced out of office. >Potioncat Not to quibble (OK, yes, it is, but....) but if he were forced out of office and the Ministry (and town) wouldn't the headline be "Fudge Run Out of Town"? Of course, "Fudge Ran Out of Town" could go either way (on a rail, or uder his own steam). For non-American English speakers, the reference we are using is to a quaint American custom sometimes refered to as 'tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail', where a ne'er-do-well is trussed up, bound hand and foot, and then hung from a fence rail (as in 'rail and stile') and carried out of town, with the admonition not to return. I thought I'd explain it, since I didn't realize the genesis of the saying until just a couple of years ago. I don't know if other English speaking group have shared this particular method of inviting someone to move on, but I know it was really popular in the American South until the middle of the 20th century. Dave From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 20 19:04:20 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 19:04:20 -0000 Subject: Nott, Malfoy and Narcissa. Re: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98959 > Mandy here: > > What we've seen of Narcissa Malfoy is at the Quidditch World Cup, > when she was described as wearing a look as if she had something bad > smelling under her nose. Potioncat: While I'm sure it was the others in the box, as you said, but what if she was upset at being with Lucius? It wouldn't be the first time we've been misled about a character. Mandy: > What we know of Narcissa is that she wanted her son to attend school > at home in Britain, when her husband wanted to send Draco away to > Europe, and that she regularly sends her son gifts at school, which > is, imo, something Molly Weasley would do if she only had the money. Potioncat: What if her reason for sending Draco to Hogwarts wasn't to have him close, but to keep him away from Karkaroff's influence? Mandy: I'm sure Lucius wouldn't mind either, except that his is prison. It would only be an advantage for Lucius Malfoy to have an orphaned pureblood under his wing as a second son, to use as he sees fit. Potioncat: Now that gives me cold chills. I'd vote for Snape taking young Nott instead! Potioncat...who wonders if we have a counterpart for ESE! to use for bad characters who might really be good? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu May 20 19:09:18 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 19:09:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Uhoh, I'm getting all the theories mixed up. Would that be ESE! > Lupin killing Sirius or Lupin killing ESE!Sirius? (I presume it's > Lupin you're hinting at...) > > OK, I'll ask: If Sirius was a Voldy agent, why did he just sit still > in 12 Grimmauld Place and do nothing when he had all those > opportunities to deliver Harry to LV? > What opportunities? I can't remember many good ones. No, Grimmauld Place was where it was all happening, the nerve centre of the Order and it's operations. Why bother moving? Besides, after DD had more or less ordered him to sit still it'd look a bit odd if he started doing conducted tours of Magical London. With Kreacher as his runner he was sitting pretty until eventually the Order inexplicably left the Ministry unguarded and gave a window of opportunity for Voldy's plan. It's possibly significant that whenever Harry contacted G.P. Lupin seemed to be there; keeping a close eye on Sirius? Lupin is favourite as hit-wizard, but only by default; he never seemed to be involved in the battle much. Waiting for a clear shot? Still, that's what good friends are for, isn't it? Kneasy From theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 19:15:58 2004 From: theanimallover_11 at yahoo.com (animal lover) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 12:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040520191558.72274.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98961 potioncat But how about the battle with Bella? Tricks? Potioncat: who reserves the right to not make up her mind. But to have a lot of fun. animallover_11: If I remember the scene correctly neither Bella or Sirius seemed to use very powerful or effective spells. For two "accomplished" wizards they did not seem to do anything. The Potter gang had better success dueling Bella and the DE's then Sirius did. It does seem alittle odd that if he were truly worried about Harry that he would take the time to "play" and taunt Bella instead of making sure that there was no way for her to get to Harry and move on to the next DE. As for the Peter part (sorry I snipped that out) I am not sure if he played into this or not. I think that it is safe to assume that like DD LV has his hands in many different fires and they are not all connected. In PoA I am sure that Sirius is in a furry to kill Peter because he does not want Peter telling anyone about his own LV connection. animallover_11 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu May 20 19:26:27 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 19:26:27 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: <20040520191558.72274.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98962 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, animal lover wrote: > In PoA I am sure that Sirius is in a furry to kill Peter because he does not want Peter telling anyone about his own LV connection. > Carolyn: I assume he would be most in a furry in his dog form? ..sorry..couldn't resist, clearly a natural slip for an animal lover! From squeakinby at tds.net Thu May 20 20:35:01 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 15:35:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: meta analysis of rumor section of JKR site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40AD1675.3000405@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 98963 Lady Macbeth wrote: > It's not just you. If I didn't want to have fun and explore the > possibilities, I could probably lay out the general idea of the last > two books right now. I tend to fall victim to forgetting my own > preaching - these are CHILDRENS' books. Technically they are children's books but there are books that are about children (rather than strictly *for* children)that seem to inhabit a no man's land in publishing. C.S. Lewis, an Inkling, held the same territory. It's often said JKR is the next generation Inkling. What makes the Potter books work--why we're all here--is that they are layered enough so that each age group can extract meaning at their own level. You're not reading into the books, you are reading the books. Jem From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu May 20 19:36:08 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 19:36:08 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98964 Pippin: Hmmm...so you think what Dumbledore calls 'moral fibre' and Hermione labels 'the saving people thing' is the same as the power behind the door? Neri: "Er ? yeah, that sounds about right" Pippin: I don't. There is a special bond between Harry and Sirius, though I don't expect to convince you of this if JKR couldn't. At any rate, Dumbledore and Kreacher perceived it, though they'd seen Harry with Arthur and Lupin too. Neri: Wow. An impressive procession of witnesses: JKR, Dumbledore AND Kreacher. And, as you write below, Voldemort too. But lets deconstruct this evidence: "but Kreacher information made him [Voldemort] realize that the one person whom you would go to any length to rescue was Sirius Black" So basically JKR wrote that DD said that Voldemort realized, on the basis of information from Kreacher, that the one person whom Harry would go to any length to rescue was Sirius Black. This boils down to Voldy, not the greatest expert on the subject, making this deduction according to the information from a half-crazy house-elf, who had his reasons to hate Sirius specifically. So was it the correct deduction? I don't know, of course. This is a hypothetical question. In JKR's story it was Sirius that Harry went to rescue. It was Sirius who died, and therefore it was Sirius whom DD and Harry talked about in this end-of-the-year-talk. And I certainly agree that there was a special bond between Harry and Sirius. Of course, there is also a special bond, for different reasons, between Harry and Ron, or between Harry and Hermione. And Harry was known to go to great length to rescue other people too. So I guess each reader will have to decide for him/herself, to what length would Harry Potter go to rescue: 1. Sirius 2. Hermione 3. Ron 4. Ginny 5. Neville 6. Fleur's little sister 7. Cedric's body And the bonus question: what does the-power-behind-the-locked-door got to do with each of the above? Pippin: The one thing Voldemort understands about love is that people are willing to compromise their principles for it. Neri: Quite a powerful thing. So what was the part that he missed? Pippin: The hostage had to be someone who would bring Harry to the Ministry *even if* Harry knew why Voldemort was plotting to get him there. What's complicated is that Harry didn't know as much as Voldemort thought he did, and so Harry didn't realize there was a moral dilemma--he'd have handed over the prophecy for Neville if the Order hadn't shown up in time. Neri: Exactly. So Harry didn't know that in order to save Sirius, or in order to save Neville, he has to trade the future of the whole WW. Had he known this, would he go to THIS length to rescue Sirius? I don't know. That's another hypothetical question. Pippin: I agree with Neri (and Kneasy ) that Dumbledore couldn't have anticipated that Voldemort would learn about the Harry-Sirius bond from Kreacher. But he might well have feared that Voldemort would learn about it from *Sirius* . If Sirius fell into Voldemort's hands, Voldemort might find he had captured not simply an Order member but one who could be used against Harry himself. Sirius was the weapon. Did he know it? I think he did. Neri: Perhaps Sirius indeed thought that he is the ultimate anti-Harry weapon. We know that Voldemort thought so. But did Sirius? Could be, but I don't think he was that arrogant. Pippin who salutes Kneasy for steadfastly defending EverSoEvil!Sirius theory, but thinks he has the wrong man Neri must add: OK, I think I finally got it. The point is to take a character who is as good as possible and prove that he is actually ESE. No problem, I can do that. How about ESE!Hermione ? She's actually a DE who is a metamorphmagus. This been done already? If so, I can try ESE!Harry. This will be slightly more difficult. Give me a day or two. Neri From kcawte at ntlworld.com Thu May 20 19:36:37 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 20:36:37 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge References: <1085000362.11359.37099.m6@yahoogroups.com> <58802.143.250.2.102.1085079620.squirrel@www2.neonramp.com> Message-ID: <000d01c43ea1$c47ed640$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 98965 > >Potioncat: > >In American English a headline that read "Fudge Ran Out of Town" > >would mean that the townspeople ran him out, or more likely here, he > >was forced out of office. > >Potioncat > Dave > Not to quibble (OK, yes, it is, but....) but if he were forced out of > office and the Ministry (and town) wouldn't the headline be "Fudge Run Out > of Town"? Of course, "Fudge Ran Out of Town" could go either way (on a > rail, or uder his own steam). > K I snipped Dave's rather interesting description of the origin of the phrase. By using Ran and not Run the headline means that Fudge is doing the running not that someone is running him out of town. The correct English (Oh God I feel like a stick in the mud here) is Fudge was run out of town, now I can see a headline writer dropping the was (in fact its common to do so in headlines) but why change the verb form? Of course it does depend what sort of paper we're talking about - a tabloid might well screw up the grammar totally making the headline ambiguous - but as it stands it *means* that he did the running himself, *but* it's rather a torturous way of saying that so what it *means* and what it was *meant* to mean may be different. In other words the writer in me would like to strangle the (fictional) headline writer for mangling the English language either way :) K From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Thu May 20 17:19:24 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 13:19:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot - Let's not forget Viktor ! (long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040520131648.031f3eb0@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98966 >Del replied : > > Yes, I've wondered about that too, > > how *could* she write to Viktor ? She would have a secret way... Phil replies: Hermione could have used Crookshanks In POA, Sirius used Crookshanks to carry a letter. Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me. I used your name but told them to take the gold from my own Gringotts vault. Please consider it as thirteen birthdays' worth of presents from your godfather. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cottell at dublin.ie Thu May 20 20:25:21 2004 From: cottell at dublin.ie (muscatel1988) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 20:25:21 -0000 Subject: Fudge In-Reply-To: <000d01c43ea1$c47ed640$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98967 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > K (Big snip!) "Fudge forced to flee! Minister of Magic chased from office!" These are the headlines as I found them on the banner at the bottom of the Rumours section, in the ad for The Quibbler. I can't seen anything about "ran/run out of town". Am I missing something? My first thought on reading them was that the whole Quibbler thing is a satire on tabloids, and that I could easily imagine that the associated story would be about Fudge having to leave his physical office at speed after, for example, Doxies hatched in the curtains and chased him. That's the sort of wordplay that tabloids love! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 20 20:38:10 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 20:38:10 -0000 Subject: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Potioncat asked: > Do we know what happened to Nott > after he was left behind by Malfoy during the battle? ... > > Allen responded: > The key to the injuries in not so much that Nott Sr. was stunned, > but.... Being stunned while a large number of heavy shelves and > glass balls raining down on top of you is bound to produce a couple > of cuts and bruises. > > ..., I am sure the aurors would have found him bleeding where his > fellow Death Eaters had left him after the battle. > Carol: > Good theory. I like it better than the one where he's squished in > the closing door ... > > But as Potioncat and others noted, that leaves the motherless Theo > without a parent. Anyone care to speculate on where he spent the > summer? ... Maybe he and Draco will be forced to have a little time > together ... It would be really interesting if Severus Snape were > young Theo's temporary guardian. At least we could be pretty sure he > wouldn't get out of line! > > Carol bboy_mn: Just my vote, but I think Allen is right, Nott Sr. was injured when the shelves fell; directly or indirectly. When Carol says Theo is left 'without a parent', I hope she doesn't mean that Nott Sr is dead, because that isn't how I read it. I think we could assume that Nott was capture, but I'm not sure that's actually stated in the book, so until the next books confirm or deny it, it can never be more than an assumption. It's possible that since Nott was off by himself when the Order appeared, he may have been able to escape. While it would make for an interesting story for Theo Nott to spend the summer with someone else, how would we learn that? How could we gain that knowledge given that the story is from Harry's point of view? True it could be stated in conversation, but that wouldn't give us much insight. Don't see how it could advance the plot unless Harry can somehow be involved. I would love to read the unpublished conversation between Theo and Draco (referenced on JKR's website). Partly, of course, for the insight into Theo, but for me, more so for the insight into Draco. Draco struts around Hogwarts like a mini-Voldie, and I think in my personal expansion of Draco, in his own mind, he sees himself as king of the Slytherins; the best of the best. And it's very easly to re-enforce the illusion of your own superiority when you surround youself by toadies and idiots. But it would be very interesting to see Draco in a conversation with someone who is his equal or superior in heritage and intellect, and more so, with someone who is not the least bit impressed or intimidated by Draco. Just a small thought. bboy_mn From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu May 20 20:58:15 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 20:58:15 -0000 Subject: meta analysis of rumor section of JKR site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98969 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Huzzah! Another Lily McSlytherin theorist! I say she's the first witch in a long line of Squibs (don't try to distract me with genetic science, or you'll force me to use sophistry...) and that's why they're so proud that they have finally produced a witch. However, the Potter books are kid books as opposed to children's books, meaning that there will be fart and booger/bogie jokes, and suspension of disbelief is *essential*. It's not about the magic. It's a ripping yarn about a boy and his school chums. JKR keeps trying to tell us this. What do you think she meant when she said "Look out for Squidward"? --JDR From probono at rapidnet.com Thu May 20 21:05:28 2004 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:05:28 -0000 Subject: meta analysis of rumor section of JKR site In-Reply-To: <20040520170637.97333.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98970 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Regina Olshan wrote: > What I find most interesting in the site is not so > much the new info in the rumors section (I was not a > believer in any of the rumors that she busts) but the > attitude JKR displays towards them. The attitude seems > to come in three flavors: > > 1. legitimate or expected question: "is LP still > alive", "will there be prequels, "is > Crookshanks/animagus/kneazle", "does Lupin have a > twin", "will HP be MOM", "can prefects take points" > "questions re book names, sizes, timing, etc." > > 2. the answer is obvious/how can you ask in light of > info in the books: "is Dumbledore HP's grandfather", > "is HP/Voldermort or Slytherin descendant", "does H > like H or R" > > 3. outrage at the misunderstanding that such a view > could even be held by a reader: "was Lily a DE" "is > Neville PP's son" > > It strikes me that the attitude underlying the > responses suggests that the darker or "more adult" > predictions, or ones involving betrayal by beloved > characters, or ones that contradict already laid down > information by explaining it away, are unlikely to be > true. Does anyone else get that impression or am I > getting carried away because this is more in tune with > my natural approach to the series? > probono: I think anything in which JK did not give a crystal clear yes/no answer to is an evasive tactic and highly suspect. Just my .02. ;D From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu May 20 21:05:46 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:05:46 -0000 Subject: Candidates for the Ever So Good!BadPerson? was: Nott, Malfoy and Narcissa. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98971 > Potioncat wrote: >..who wonders if we have a counterpart for ESE! to use for bad characters who might really be good? Mandy here: Ever So Good Narcissa! That's what I've been imagining and hoping for in a while. We need one of the bad guys to really be good. Other than Snape of course. Although Jo seems reluctant to have any bad characters with any depth, that might turn out to be good deep down inside. It seems to me that the 'good' Gryffindors are allow multi- dimensions, like James and Sirius being assholes in school while growing up to fight to the side of justice, while the 'bad' Slytherins are doomed to always be just bad! Snape is the only fully realized 'bad' guy, which is why we enjoy him so much. To see his struggle and question his motivation. Voldemort, Malfoy, Bellatrix et al are still too 2 dimensional imo. Pettigrew is more interesting, but again he started out as a 'good' boy didn't he, before he turned 'bad.' What we need is ESG!Narcissa. Who was sorted in to Gryffindor, became Lily's best friend at school along with Alice Longbottom and Dorcas Meadows. Who holds secrets for Harry that she will reveal, whilst standing in front of the Black tapestry at Grimmauld Place. Secretly working for DD and the Order against her husband! Or some such scenario. If not ESG!Narcissa then who else? There has been speculation about a SPY!Lucius, but as he will only ever be working for yours truly, he could never be considered ESG!Lucius, even if it turns out he's secretly working for DD. ESG!Bellatrix -- never in a million years! Plus I want her to stay bad, we need some evil witches as badly as we need an ESG!Bad person. Hum, there are not too many to choose from are there. Any thoughts? Cheers Mandy From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu May 20 21:07:57 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:07:57 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98972 Mandy wrote: > To me, when I read Hermione acting briskly, hardly looking up and > going strait back to her book, speaks that she is jealous and > determined to hide it from both of the boys. She wants avoid giving > herself away and showing she her feelings of jealous for Harry to her > too closest friends. When you have a crush or are in love with > someone who doesn't realize it, or is not reciprocating the feelings, > you are reluctant to show how you feel for all sorts of reasons. > Embarrassment, the fear of rejection, the fear of changing the > relationship as it stands. Del replies : I know that, because that's also how I would act. However, from what we've seen of her in the previous books, Hermione doesn't seem to be the kind who hides her feelings that well, even when she wants to. Any time she's had a crush or any kind of romantic interest in a boy, she couldn't hide it when faced with it. In CoS, she could hardly pronounce the name "Lockhart" without blushing or getting breathless. In GoF, she keeps blushing every time the name of Viktor Krum is said. Not to mention that she's so viscerally jealous of Fleur that she can hardly be in the same room with her without scowling. So I find it quite strange that she could discuss Harry's love life without displaying any of her usual signs of jealousy, if she were indeed jealous. Instead, she sounds merely scientifically interested in the events, which is usually the attitude she puts on when dealing with things that don't get to her emotionnally. Of course, it could be that Harry missed all the clues, and thus the narrator didn't use the right adjectives to describe Hermione's behaviour... Del From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 20 21:21:59 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:21:59 -0000 Subject: Fudge -Seriously Now In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "muscatel1988" wrote: > muscatel1988: > > "Fudge forced to flee! > Minister of Magic chased from office!" > > These are the headlines as I found them on the banner at the bottom > of the Rumours section, in the ad for The Quibbler. I can't seen > anything about "ran/run out of town". Am I missing something? > > My first thought on reading them was that the whole Quibbler thing > is a satire on tabloids, and that I could easily imagine that the > associated story would be about Fudge having to leave his physical > office at speed after, for example, Doxies hatched in the curtains > and chased him. That's the sort of wordplay that tabloids love! bboy_mn: Some one correct me if I am wrong, but in the European/British Parlimentary form of government, when the current 'rules' annoys the people and the Parliment, can't they have a 'Vote of No Confidence', thereby, forcing an immediate election to replace the official in question? (Side note: in the US, we call that a 'recall election'; just happened to the governor of California.) Regardless of the quality of my knowledge of Euro-government, it's entirely possible the Fudge will simply step down, or the office will change hands in the course of normal democratic process. However, common information doesn't sell newspapers; you need overblown, highly sensationalized headlines which are accompanied by stories full of hyperbole, distortions, half-truths, exagerations, and overblown editiorializing. Which seems to be standard fare for the Daily Prophet; throw in an overactive imagination and some wild speculation and you have the Quibbler. Let's not take those headlines as abolute true, but as nothing more than headlines. I think in an interview, JKR already said there will be a new Minister of Magic, so the headline isn't really telling us anything about the event itself or the underlying details. Just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu May 20 21:35:17 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:35:17 -0000 Subject: Bellatrix killed Sirius!!! wasDumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: <20040520191558.72274.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98974 > animallover_11 wrote: > If I remember the scene correctly neither Bella or Sirius seemed to use very powerful or effective spells. For two "accomplished" wizards they did not seem to do anything. The Potter gang had better success dueling Bella and the DE's then Sirius did. It does seem alittle odd that if he were truly worried about Harry that he would take the time to "play" and taunt Bella instead of making sure that there was no way for her to get to Harry and move on to the next DE. Mandy here: There is no canon as to exactly what spells Sirius and Bellatrix used on each other in their dual. I for one have no reason to doubt that they were very, quick, fast, strong and lethal. The amount of time that passed between Harry noticing Sirius running to meet Bellatrix and the moment she finally killed him was very short. They only had time to throw about 3 or 4 spells at each other, that is a quick fight. You are mistaken if you think that Sirius stopped fighting to taunt and play with Bellatrix. Sirius did shout, " Come on you can do better than that" during the dual while they were fighting. It is a classic technique used by some one who is out classed and afraid to get their opponent angry, so they will make a mistake which can then taken advantage of. Sirius was desperate and grabbing at straws, and unfortunately for Sirius Black he underestimated his opponent, and instead Bellatrix took advantage of his moment of distraction to throw the deathblow at him. A foolish mistake on Sirius part which, when you consider his character not at all surprising. Also, as much as I like the ESE!Lupin theory of Kneaseys, and even if Lupin was a hit wizard sent to kill Sirius, he failed because Bellatrix did it for him. Cheers Mandy, who refused to believe anyone other than Bellatrix killed Sirius. From inky_quill at hotmail.com Thu May 20 21:42:57 2004 From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:42:57 -0000 Subject: Sirius' influence on Harry (was:Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98975 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote regarding Sirius and Harry's adoration of his godfather: . . . [snipped] Harry is emotionally vulnerable. On the basis of a few fraught minutes in the Shrieking Shack he believes that he has an emotional anchor, a replacement for his lost family. How much time have Harry and Sirius actually spent together? Not much - and almost zero time without someone else being present. Does Harry really know Sirius? No. He's made a judgement based on his emotional needs. Dodgy, very dodgy. Naturally, Harry won't hear a word against Sirius no matter what he does or what others may say . . . .[rest snipped] Kneasy My own thoughts: I agree with Kneasy (and also Potioncat) that Sirius has been a bad influence on Harry. I've never taken a shine to Sirius. Nor do I understand why Harry so enthusiastically embraced Sirius Black as the best thing since sliced bread. Helping Sirius escape on Buckbeak in PoA was the right thing for Harry to do. Sirius' innocence and Peter's guilt in the Potters' murders were not only established, but accepted by Remus Lupin whom Harry has come to know and trust over the past year. Ok, the man was innocent of the charges, but what had Harry seen him do over the last few weeks/months? Scared him half to death while waiting for the Knight bus, he stole Neville's list of passwords and got Neville into a lot of trouble (he couldn't just copy it down and put it back?), he used violence & a knife against the Fat Lady and trashed Harry's dorm, and he kidnapped Ron to get at Scabbers breaking Ron's leg in the process. Sirius might have been wrongly convicted, but he's neither harmless nor innocent. (I wonder if Harry is influenced by Sirius' animagus form?the black lab is such a friendly, gentle dog.) But while the revelations in the Shack are important, I think its not so much those `few fraught minutes' alone that ensure Harry's love and emotional dependence on Sirius but what comes after. Sirius, at least initially, has bought Harry's affection with promises and gifts. He offers what Harry assumes will be a better home (with no mention of any responsibilities like having to do the dishes or mow the lawn). He gives Harry the very, very, expensive and awesome broom that not only makes Harry the envy of the student body, enabling Harry to keep beating Draco and be the Quidditch hero. Sirius overrides the Dursleys' parental authority by giving permission for Harry to enjoy the hitherto forbidden joys of Hogsmeade, and his violent reputation serves as the `my-godfather 's-a-vicious-murderer' stick for Harry to beat the Dursleys with. Some might say that's too simplistic, but I do think its part of Harry's devotion to his godfather. Yes, he was delighted to meet someone who had been so close to his parents. Yes, Sirius wanted Harry, was concerned about Harry's welfare. Yes, he listened to Harry and showed pleasure in his life rather than disapproval, criticism, or scorn, or weighed Harry down with expectations. Its unfortunate that Sirius is killed (or whatever) just as Harry was starting to realize (even if he resisted the idea) that Sirius wasn't a perfect fantasy parent. I must say that the end of OotP left me alarmed for Harry's future behavior. I know he's the hero of the story, and that we've been promised a happy ending, but I worry about Harry. He's learned very bad lessons in this book, IMO, and while I was relieved that someone finally had a word with the Dursleys about the way they treat Harry? Dumbledore himself should have done that long ago?I was alarmed at the form it took. Its set up as another "be good to me or I'll tell my friends and they'll hurt you'' stick. Not a good example for Harry. Moody, Lupin, Tonks, and Arthur are not threatening the Dursleys with child welfare investigations and the resulting social embarrassment (although Harry keeps insisting that's the sole source of Aunt Petunia's concern), but are implying violence: either physical or magical. It seems that Harry is being given a message that might makes right and that revenge is appropriate. Just my two cents. Julie From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 20 21:53:53 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:53:53 -0000 Subject: Fudge -Seriously Now In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > bboy_mn: > Some one correct me if I am wrong, but in the European/British > Parlimentary form of government, when the current 'rules' annoys the > people and the Parliment, can't they have a 'Vote of No Confidence', > thereby, forcing an immediate election to replace the official in > question? (Side note: in the US, we call that a 'recall election'; > just happened to the governor of California.) Geoff: Not necessarily an election. A successful vote of no confidence expects that the recipient will step down. If, say, Tony Blair was on the receiving end, he could go to the Queen, tender his resignation and recommend to Her Majesty that she send for person X to replace him. In the case of another minister, then Blair would just ring up someone and ask them to take over. I'm not sure whether the minister of Magic is elected? Canon seems a bit vague, certainly when Crouch is discussed... "He had his supporters, mind you - plenty of people thought he was going about things the right way and there were a lot of witches and wizards clamouring for him to take over as Minister of Magic. When Voldemort disappeared, itlooked like only a matter of time until Crouch got the top job. But then something rather unfortunate happened...." (GOF "Padfoot Returns" p.457 UK edition) '"So old Crouch lost it all, just when he thought he had it made," he (Sirius) continued, wiping his mouth with the back of his hand. "One moment a hero, poised to become Minister for Magic... next, his son dead, his wife dead, the family name dishonoured and, so I've heard since I escaped, a big drop in popularity..... ...So Cornelius Fudge got the top job and Crouch was shunted sideways into the Department of International Magical Cooperation."' (GOF "Padfoot Returns" p.459 UK edition) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu May 20 22:00:15 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:00:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98977 >Potioncat: > OK, I'll ask: If Sirius was a Voldy agent, why did he just sit still > in 12 Grimmauld Place and do nothing when he had all those > opportunities to deliver Harry to LV? > Kneasy: What opportunities? I can't remember many good ones. Neri: One opportunity that immediately comes to mind is the night Arthur was attacked. Harry and the Weasley kids were alone the whole night with Sirius, while DD and the rest were busy with helping Arthur and covering after him. Sirius brought everybody butterbeer. He could have put a sleeping drought inside it so he'll have no problem with the Weasleys, then kill Harry and get out of the house to find LV and collect his prize, or he could bring drugged Harry to LV. I'd think Voldy would have been ready to blow Sirius' cover for this. Actually, to make it even simpler, whenever Sirius and Harry were in the same room together, Sirius could kill Harry and disaparate to Voldy. But I guess this would have been much too simple :-D Neri From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu May 20 22:04:30 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:04:30 -0000 Subject: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98978 Tom Riddle is the /Heir/ of Slytherin. Being an heir is more than being a descendant. An heir, by definition, is "one who inherits or is entitled to inherit another's property, title, etc." whereas a descendant is "an offspring of a certain anscestor, family, group" (Webster's New World Dictionary). Being an heir implies being designated as such by the person bequeathing the property, etc. This is especially true in Tom's case. Otherwise, any descendant of Slytherin would have been able to open the Chamber, control the Basilisk, etc. What is it about Tom Marvolo Riddle that made him the HEIR, not just the descendant? His maternal anscestory was full of descendants of Slytherin, but Tom is the heir. Why? Do we know yet? Julie From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu May 20 22:08:08 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:08:08 -0000 Subject: website and canon = Caution and Delight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98979 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > >drjuliehoward wrote: > > Is JKR's new website considered canon, given that the other > > books, chocolate frog cards, etc., are? > > > Mandy here: > I've been reading the whole thread on this and what we all have to > remember is: > > REDHERINGS!! > > All in the name of fun, of course. > > But don't forget Jo loves to play with us. She wants to keep us > guessing and in doing so, is going to love feeding us tidbits that > are as likely to lead us down the wrong path as the right one. Just > because she wants to debunk some rumors put out there by others, it > may not mean that she isn't going to start some of her own. > > Didn't she say somewhere that one of her favorite authors was Agather > Christie? > > I think the site is definitely canon, but is also going to be full of > trapdoors, red hearings, maguffins and all manner or wonderful > tricks. I can't wait. > > Way to go, Jo! My thoughts exactly! Some of what she said was just too tongue-in- cheek. I do have a question about the little secrets. I do not have a microphone on my computer, so I have not been able to try this. Has anyone taken the portkey to the "Do Not Disturb" door and tried any of the phrases (e.g., "Sherbert Lemon") used to access Dumbledore's office? From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu May 20 22:44:04 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:44:04 -0000 Subject: website and canon = Caution and Delight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98980 Mandy wrote: Didn't she say somewhere that one of her favorite authors was Agatha Christie? vmonte replies: Is this true? Does anyone know if this statement is true? If it is I'm pretty sure I know what character Snape may be based on. vmonte From Batchevra at aol.com Thu May 20 22:43:47 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 18:43:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was... Message-ID: <103.4654f3b0.2dde8ea3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98981 In a message dated 5/20/04 7:45:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com writes: Really? This would imply that Sirius knew in advance that Harry would be meeting Voldemort in the Ministry, or at least that he would be meeting Voldy fairly soon. That's post facto rationisation IMO. Regular readers of my burblings will know that I am not a great fan of Sirius; I don't consider him to be a hero at all. Last year there were a series of threads that covered this and I stated that Sirius is a rotten role model for Harry and that he would not be considered an admirable character by most *males*. The distaff side may regard him differently, but they always seem to have a soft spot for flawed 'heroes'. Let me present the case for the prosecution by considering just what Sirius has done, achieved or inspired. If our first view of Sirius had been the one shown in 'Snape's worst Memory' what would our impression of him be? Not nice at all. Consider the passages in which he is described: (snip) In how we see Sirius for the first time in Snape's Pensieve memory, you forgot what Sirius and James did in the first part. They both ask Remus about Werewolf question on the OWL exam, and when Remus makes a joke about it, they both laugh with him, Wormtail doesn't laugh. Why is it that you forget about the good part of the Pensieve moment and focus all on the bad part. What I see in that memory is that James and Sirius show how good they were, how bad they were, and how they were teens at that point. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 22:47:17 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 15:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Candidates for the Ever So Good!BadPerson? was: Nott, Malfoy and Narcissa. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040520224717.84935.qmail@web50009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98984 Mandy wrote: Hum, there are not too many to choose from are there. Any thoughts? Cheers Mandy My reply: There will be a good slytherin. I'm still, as crazy as this sounds, holding faith in Draco Malfoy. Draco, as we all know, still holds Snape in some sort of regard. He still respects the man to some degree I'm sure. So I still hope that Snape will be able to exert some influence on Draco. I have always thought this about Draco, we don't see many hints that he is at all redeemable. However, I still go back to the fact that to me it seems like he is extremely coward type of child. If something would happen to his mother or something to himself perhaps he may be persuaded to change his persuasion. Perhaps, I'm jsut too in love with the idea of Draco...LOL. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 20 23:00:03 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 23:00:03 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98985 Neri: >So basically JKR wrote that DD said that Voldemort realized, on the basis of information from Kreacher, that the one person whom Harry would go to any length to rescue was Sirius Black. This boils down to Voldy, not the greatest expert on the subject, making this deduction according to the information from a half-crazy house-elf, who had his reasons to hate Sirius specifically< Pippin: Dumbledore says, flat out, that the power behind the locked door took Harry to save Sirius, because of the bond that had grown between them. Was he wrong? Possibly. But can you offer another reason why Dumbledore felt he had to protect Sirius specifically, when he let Arthur and Lupin face danger? Was it because Sirius was too rash to be trusted? That is what Molly thinks. But she conveniently forgot that Lupin and Arthur have been known to act rashly too. > Pippin previously: > The one thing Voldemort understands about love is that people are willing to compromise their principles for it.< > > > Neri: > Quite a powerful thing. So what was the part that he missed? Pippin: According to canon, that it would save baby Harry from the killing curse and teenage Harry from possession. But I'm sure JKR will have more to say about this. > Pippin previously: > The hostage had to be someone who would bring Harry to the Ministry *even if* Harry knew why Voldemort was plotting to get him there. > What's complicated is that Harry didn't know as much as Voldemort thought he did, and so Harry didn't realize there was a moral dilemma--he'd have handed over the prophecy for Neville if the Order hadn't shown up in time.< > Neri: > Exactly. So Harry didn't know that in order to save Sirius, or in order to save Neville, he has to trade the future of the whole WW. Had he known this, would he go to THIS length to rescue Sirius? I don't know. That's another hypothetical question. < But it's not a hypothetical question for Dumbledore. Consider Molly. Dumbledore says she might know already, from her magical clock, that Arthur was in mortal peril. She knew where he was. But even though he might have died unrescued, Dumbledore trusted her not to go to him, lest she betray the Order. That's what's expected of her. No child should have to make such a decision. Dumbledore knew that, so he decided, unwisely, to keep Harry in the dark. > Pippin: > I agree with Neri (and Kneasy ) that Dumbledore couldn't have anticipated that Voldemort would learn about the Harry-Sirius bond from Kreacher. But he might well have feared that Voldemort would learn about it from *Sirius* . > > If Sirius fell into Voldemort's hands, Voldemort might find he had captured not simply an Order member but one who could be used against Harry himself. Sirius was the weapon. > Did he know it? I think he did. > Neri: > Perhaps Sirius indeed thought that he is the ultimate anti-Harry weapon. We know that Voldemort thought so. But did Sirius? Could be, but I don't think he was that arrogant. < Arrogant, to believe Dumbledore if Dumbledore explained to him that his love for Harry might become a weapon in Voldemort's hands? Why would that be arrogant? > Neri must add: > OK, I think I finally got it. The point is to take a character who is as good as possible and prove that he is actually ESE. < Pippin: I can only speak for myself, but I was merely applauding Kneasy for his determination. Did you think I was trying to prove that Dumbledore was evil? I was trying to show that he was good, in that he did care about Sirius's emotional state, but was willing, with Sirius's consent, to put it at risk to defend Harry. It is much the same situation that Harry faced on the chessboard. He would not go to any lengths to save Ron, if it meant that Voldemort got the stone. Of course Dumbledore was foolish, as he admits. He should have realized that Harry had already faced such a test and passed it. But it's one thing to watch a child assume such a burden on his own, and quite another to lay it on him. Pippin From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Thu May 20 23:04:54 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 18:04:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98986 Julie Wrote: Tom Riddle is the /Heir/ of Slytherin. Being an heir is more than being a descendant. An heir, by definition, is "one who inherits or is entitled to inherit another's property, title, etc." whereas a descendant is "an offspring of a certain anscestor, family, group" (Webster's New World Dictionary). Being an heir implies being designated as such by the person bequeathing the property, etc. This is especially true in Tom's case. Otherwise, any descendant of Slytherin would have been able to open the Chamber, control the Basilisk, etc. What is it about Tom Marvolo Riddle that made him the HEIR, not just the descendant? His maternal anscestory was full of descendants of Slytherin, but Tom is the heir. Why? Do we know yet? Lady Macbeth Replies: If his mother's maiden name was Slytherin, and she had no brothers, uncles or older sisters to inherit the estate, she would have been the rightful "heir". All of her stuff would have passed onto her husband upon her death; her wizarding inheritance would have passed onto her wizard children, which we know of only one - Tom. Upon Tom killing the Riddles, he would have gotten everything - part of the reason he had no problem obtaining rights to keep and use the Riddle House. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop, from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the_bad_gene at yahoo.com Thu May 20 08:06:37 2004 From: the_bad_gene at yahoo.com (Tim Cuthbertson) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 01:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Caradoc Dearborn Message-ID: <20040520080637.20470.qmail@web50606.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98987 Can any one let me know if Caradoc Dearborn has ever been mentioned on this site? Moody mentions him whilst talking to harry and showing him a picture of the old order. He was apparently killed by Death Eaters but they never founf his body!!!!! Methinks he may actually be a loyal supporter of Voldy, and is very much alive!!! Just an idea Tim --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From laurens at leroc.net Thu May 20 09:25:19 2004 From: laurens at leroc.net (lauren_silverwolf) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:25:19 -0000 Subject: Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98988 JoAnna wrote: > Incidentally, do you think the fact that Ginny's the first Weasley > girl born in several generations will become plot point? I'm > inclined to think not - if it was, I'd imagine JKR would have > mentioned it by now. However, there were a lot of new plot points > developed in book 5, so it's possible. Thoughts? One thing that's not been mentioned yet in regards to the source of the name Ginevra is that it also shares it roots from Genever - a spirit made from Juniper berries, which we know today as Gin. Back in 18th Century England gin was very simple to make, and thus cheap and popular with the poor. It was particularly popular with women, who liked the taste and drank large quantities to escape their miserable existance. It was at this point it obtained its nickname - "Mother's Ruin". There are possibly 2 reasons for this. Firstly, gin was thought to affect fertility, and to bring on the termination of unwanted pregnancies. Secondly, as seen in Hogarth's painting "Gin Lane", it made women drunk & irresponsible mothers (a drunk woman allows her baby to fall, unnoticed to the floor). I'm wondering whether "Mother's Ruin" is a pointer towards Ginny & Molly's relationship deteriorating in the future. I'm not for one minute suggesting any alcoholism or unwanted pregnancies! However, we have seen Ginny grow from a shy child, into a spunky teenager. One thing we've not witnessed yet, though, is how this has altered the Molly/Ginny relationship dynamic (and, as all mothers with teenage daughters know - it's not necessarily smooth sailing). I'd like to see this in the next book ? but I'm hoping that it's not a complete portent of doom for poor Molly... Lauren. From garybec at yahoo.com Thu May 20 11:15:25 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 11:15:25 -0000 Subject: Crouch!Moody and the Unforgivables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98989 Meri: > I am currently rereading my copy of GoF, and have just finnished the > chapter (chapter 15, Beaxbatons and Durmstrang) where Crouch!Moody > teaches Harry and his DADA class about the Imperius curse, and had > put each of them under it in turn. This is also where Harry learns > to resist the curse, which will come in handy later when he finally > duels LV in the graveyard. After Harry throws off the curse for the > first time, Crouch!Moody makes an interesting comment, and I > quote: "Very good, Potter, very good indeed! "They'll have trouble > controlling you!" (page 232, American hardcover). But > something hit me tonight. What if, in the vein of many classic right- > hand men, Crouch!Moody had his own designs on LV's power? I know > that he will state while under the veritaserum that he will be > closer than a son to LV, but that doesn't mean that he didn't have > ambitions of his own, and he allready showed that he was capable of > killing a (admittedly despised) father. Perhaps, if DD and the > others hadn't busted in on him and Harry in the Veritaserum chapter > (after LV's rebirth and Cedric's death) he would, like LV in SS, > have asked Harry to join him? Asked Harry to be his right hand man? > I know, I know it's crazy, but could the "them" refer not to DE's, > but DD? And Crouch wanted to prevent Harry from being manipulated by > the side of good as much as the dark side? We know that he was > kissed by a dementor (dementorized?) but where has his body gone? Is > recovery possible? Will Crouch be back to challenge LV? Or am I > completely cracked? Feel free to crush my rantings to bits. Becki says: Meri, you raise some interesting questions. I have never quite understood the moody/crouch's behavior. During the veritumserium scene, he has fessed up to "if's there's one think I hate more than any other, it's a death eater that walked free", and continues to say that he alone remained faithful, GoF 675 Am HB. My question is if he was so devoted, why did he do the very same thing as the other DE, deny LV at his hearing to his father and the rest of the court that we witnessed in DD pensive? And also, with his protecting Harry to get him through to the end, he 'armed' with many weapons to help him fight. One would almost think that he went too far, taught him too much, and that he could have achieved his goal and not given Harry so many weapons to fight LV in the end. What do you think? Becki From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 11:29:28 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 04:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge & Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040520112928.71504.qmail@web50105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98990 garybec wrote: > > MoonMyyst: > > Here is a thought.... If Fudge is run out of town, what happens > > to Percy? I suspect that he is close to (if not already) > > crossing over to LV. > bboy_mn: > Simple; Percy's Ministry career not having gone so well, he > decides to move to the field of education and accepts a postion as > Defense Against Dark Art teacher at Hogwarts. No: HPFGUIDX 98991 I have been searching across the internet for fact or discussion or theory on this point. JKR is deliberately not explicit about activity or place when Mr. Weasley is bitten in OotP (p.462). As far as I can tell, the location is an important wizarding place, with metal bars, stone floords and at least two headmaster pictures (Everard and Elfrida Cragg) upstairs. If this has been munched over before, I beg pardon and would appreciate being pointed in the proper direction. -nrt From Snarryfan at aol.com Thu May 20 16:51:02 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 16:51:02 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98992 First this, POA,UK version, page 359: *Black started toward Snape, but Snape pointed his wand straight between Black's eyes. "Give me a reason," he whispered."Give me a reason to do it, and I swear I will." Black stopped dead. It would have impossible to say which face showed more hatred.* We have two people who hate each other. One humiliated/hurt the other before, and now the 'victim' is so angry that he points his wand on his ex 'bully', ready to attack, to make him pay, waiting for any excuse to give in. Now this, OOTP, UK version, page 19: *"[...]Don't you point that thing at me!" Dudley backed into the alley wall. Harry was pointing the wand directly at Dudley's heart. Harry could feel fourteen year's hatred of Dudley pounding in his veins_what wounldn't he give to strike now, to jinx Dudley so thoroughly he'd have to crawl home like an insect, struck dumb, sprouting feelers...* So, there we have... two people who hate each other, one humiliated/hurt by the other before, and the ex-victim ready to make the bully pay, waiting for any excuse to strike. Am I only one who sees the likeness? Do you know of other moments where Snape and Harry had the same reactions in similar situations? Christelle From imontero at iname.com Thu May 20 16:53:30 2004 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 16:53:30 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98993 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "garybec" wrote: > Mandy here: > > To me, when I read Hermione acting briskly, hardly looking up and > > going straight back to her book, speaks that she is jealous and > > determined to hide it from both of the boys. She wants avoid > > giving herself away and showing she her feelings of jealous for > > Harry to her two closest friends. When you have a crush or are in > > love with someone who doesn't realize it, or is not reciprocating the > > feelings, you are reluctant to show how you feel for all sorts of > > reasons. Embarrassment, the fear of rejection, the fear of changing > > the relationship as it stands. > > > Becki writes: > > I agree with you Mandy. I do think that Hermione is very jealous, > but her reaction may have even surprised herself? Maybe that is why > she asked the questions in such a way? Trying to distance herself > but on the inside, burning? Maybe she is struggling with her > feelings right now. I have to admit that I am a H/Hr shipper. I > think they belong together. Even Lily detested James until their > 7th year. A lot can happen, and I am sure...will. Luna: It is funny that you mention Lily hating James! I see this as a sign that there might be a possibility between Ron and Hermione... Many H/Hers say that R/H wont happen because they'll get each other mad. Lily hated James, and she ended up marrying him. Maybe Ron and Hermione will end up being a couple too :-)) From mnaperrone at aol.com Thu May 20 17:46:54 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 17:46:54 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98994 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scarletsorceress666" scarletsorceress wrote: > Dumbledore could be seen as reaffirming that thought to Harry when he > mentions to Harry that Sirius was too old and too wise to rise to > Snape's bait fully. That Sirius knew what was at stake deep down and > was more than prepared for his sacrifice. So was the lesson to think > before you act a painful lesson but one Harry needs to learn and not > to trust all you are told, a lesson he should have learned from his > encounter with Tom Riddle in CoS? > > I also think that Sirius realised that he was a liability to Harry > and that perhaps he, Sirius, was getting in the way. Harry wondered > several times what Sirius would think about something, yes he was > helping Harry with information but Harry was also giving up some > ground to Sirius and Sirius knew Harry was the one who had to do as > Ron said in Book one, it's you Harry, you alone or words to that > effect. Had Sirius stayed as you say he would have endangered Harry > more? But perhaps Sirius knew he could help Harry from the other > side of the veil too and finally got to make his sacrifice and pay > back his friends trust in him, by going beyond the veil, knowing he > can't come back, but on that side being able to help Harry, somewhat > as James and Lily did in GoF. > > Thus continuing the theme of sacrificing oneself for the love of > others. Ally: I'm a little late to the thread - I can never keep up with this group!! But, I will say that I find it unlikely that we will learn either of those things. I very much like the idea of DD as a calculating man who is wise enough to know he must make sacrifices, but I find it hard to believe he would in some way arrange for the death of Sirius. It's a level of personal betrayal towards Harry that, while I find very realistic for a leader in war time, I am not sure JKR would write. Although who knows, she has cautioned us against applying too much Star Wars to HP, and I like many view DD as very Obi Wan. But even if he did it, I don't think Sirius knew he was going to sacrifice himself b/c of the look of fear on his face as he fell and his reactions when he went in. I would think that if he knew he was going to his death, given his belief that some things are worth dying for, that he would not be afraid. I would have expected his expression to be "steely with resolve" or "sad and resigned" - something other than surprised and then afraid. --Ally From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 19:19:45 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 12:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nott, Malfoy and Narcissa. Re: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040520191945.80528.qmail@web50102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98995 potioncat wrote: > Potioncat...who wonders if we have a counterpart for ESE! to use for > bad characters who might really be good? ETG! Evil Turned Good ??? moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 20 23:56:58 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 23:56:58 -0000 Subject: Nott, Malfoy and Narcissa. Re: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: <20040520191945.80528.qmail@web50102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98996 > > > Potioncat...who wonders if we have a counterpart for ESE! to use for > > bad characters who might really be good? > > ETG! Evil Turned Good ??? > > moonmyyst Potioncat: Let's see Sirius, Remus,(though not at the same time), then Neville, Percy, Fudge, maybe Ron and sometimes Molly are all evil or at least bad. And we have "good" Narcissa, Draco, maybe Theo Nott and possibly Lucius. Snape is good, but only when he's bad...or is that Bellatrix? Come to think of it, she probably taught young Severus a thing or two back at Hogwarts... Potioncat who blames all this silliness on the cicadas and their constant buzzing. From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Thu May 20 21:36:52 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 17:36:52 -0400 Subject: Look out for Squidward, was meta analysis of rumor section of JKR site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040520173240.02abfeb0@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 98997 >The Sergeant Majorette says > >Huzzah! Another Lily McSlytherin theorist! I say she's the first >witch in a long line of Squibs (don't try to distract me with genetic >science, or you'll force me to use sophistry...) and that's why >they're so proud that they have finally produced a witch. > >However, the Potter books are kid books as opposed to children's >books, meaning that there will be fart and booger/bogie jokes, and >suspension of disbelief is *essential*. It's not about the magic. >It's a ripping yarn about a boy and his school chums. JKR keeps >trying to tell us this. What do you think she meant when she >said "Look out for Squidward"? > >--JDR > >Phil replies: Squidward Tentacles? Squidward is a main character on the TV show, Spongebob SquarePants and, uh, dislikes Spongebob and Patrick. He's very grumpy and always playing his clarinet, which he is horrible at, anyway, he is an artist :). He is a squid that lives in an Easter Island head, works as a cashier in the Krusty Krab, he has no friends, besides he lives between the houses of Spongebob and Patrick. His most prized posession is his clarinet. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri May 21 00:14:55 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 00:14:55 -0000 Subject: Caradoc Dearborn In-Reply-To: <20040520080637.20470.qmail@web50606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tim Cuthbertson wrote: > Can any one let me know if Caradoc Dearborn has ever been mentioned on this site? > > Moody mentions him whilst talking to harry and showing him a picture of the old order. He was apparently killed by Death Eaters but they never founf his body!!!!! > > Methinks he may actually be a loyal supporter of Voldy, and is very much alive!!! Jen: Yes! I think Caradoc will return as well. Here's a post from Nov., but there's no other mention in the archives except on 'death toll' lists: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85106 Unfortunately, no one responded. Does everyone think he's dead? JKR slipped him in so carefully, and he's notable for being the *only other person in Potterverse besides Pettigrew* whose body wasn't found. That's enough for me to sit up and take notice! Another theory: Caradoc was the Longbottom's Secret Keeper and was captured while LV was still alive. The Order presumed him dead, but really he was a prisoner. After LV's death, Bellatrix became frenzied and Crucio'd Caradoc until he gave over the location of the Longbottoms. He lost his memory in the proccess, the DE's left him for dead, but he actually wandered away and will return once he gets his memory back, i.e., soon. Hey, it could happen! From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Fri May 21 00:26:16 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 19:26:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Caradoc Dearborn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 98999 Jen Wrote : Yes! I think Caradoc will return as well. Here's a post from Nov., but there's no other mention in the archives except on 'death toll' lists: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85106 Lady Macbeth Replies: I'm not sure if it'll help or not, but since that aforementioned November post mentions that Caradoc Dearborn's name is Welsh, here's the detail, for anyone who wants to take it and run with it: CARADOC masculine Usage: Welsh Variant of CARADOG CARADOG masculine Usage: Welsh Derived from Welsh cariadus "beloved". This was the name of a 1st-century British chieftain who rebelled against Roman rule. DEARBORN surname Variants: DEARBOURNE, DEERBOURNE Derived from deer bourne "from the deer brook". A deer brook is a stream that many animals, particularly deer, visit. Seems like a pretty typical British name to me, but knowing how the seemingly "stupidest" things in those books can have internal meanings, there might be something to the idea that he's on the other side - especially considering the bit about that 1st-century British cheiftain. :) -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop, from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kewpiebb99 at yahoo.com Fri May 21 00:37:48 2004 From: kewpiebb99 at yahoo.com (Joan) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 17:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Look out for Squidward, was meta analysis of rumor section of JKR site In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040520173240.02abfeb0@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: <20040521003748.36178.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99000 --- Phil Vlasak wrote: > > >The Sergeant Majorette says > >. What do you think she meant when she > >said "Look out for Squidward"? > >Phil replies: > > Squidward Tentacles? > Squidward is a main character on the TV show, Spongebob SquarePants > and, uh, dislikes Spongebob and Patrick. He's very > grumpy and always playing his clarinet, which he is horrible at, anyway, he > is an > artist :). > He is a squid that lives in an Easter Island head, works as a cashier in > the Krusty > Krab, he has no friends, besides he lives between the houses of Spongebob > and Patrick. > His most prized posession is his clarinet. In fact, it's quite popular among Snape fans that Squidward is THE Snape in the Spongebob universe. He got a big hook nose, grumpy, lonely and is always mean to Spongebob. And there are discussion topic "anyone notice Squidward is a lot like Snape"over at Mugglenet where JKR chat at. Also, did you all see JKR's cute curly doodles around Snape's name in that Sorting Hat sketch note? Isn't that cute? K From grahadh at yahoo.com Fri May 21 01:07:38 2004 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (grahadh) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 01:07:38 -0000 Subject: Look out for Squidward, was meta analysis of rumor section of JKR site In-Reply-To: <20040521003748.36178.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Joan wrote: > > > > >The Sergeant Majorette says > > >. What do you think she meant when she > > >said "Look out for Squidward"? > > > In fact, it's quite popular among Snape fans that Squidward is THE Snape in the Spongebob > universe. He got a big hook nose, grumpy, lonely and is always mean to Spongebob. And > there are discussion topic "anyone notice Squidward is a lot like Snape"over at Mugglenet > where JKR chat at. > > Also, did you all see JKR's cute curly doodles around Snape's name in that Sorting Hat > sketch note? Isn't that cute? > > K As a fan of both SpongeBob and Harry Potter I love the Squidward/Snape analogy! I though that JKR was just telling the other mugglenet chatters (who ignored her book 7 theories) that she used the screen name 'Squidward' and so to look out for her next time. But who knows. . . . -Dhyana, who wonders how many 'Squidwards' mugglenet has now. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri May 21 01:50:29 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 01:50:29 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99002 Pippin: Dumbledore says, flat out, that the power behind the locked door took Harry to save Sirius, because of the bond that had grown between them. Neri: Sorry to nitpick, but I think you are connecting several different pieces of canon in a way that might be misleading. DD says basically three separate things: 1. "the fact that you [Harry] were coming to regard Sirius as a mixture of father and brother" (I assume this is what you mean by "bond"? I didn't find this word in DD's words). 2. "Kreacher's information made him [Voldemort] realise that the one person for whom you would go to any lengths to rescue was Sirius Black" (the sentence I analyzed in my previous post) 3. (much later) "That power took you to save Sirius tonight" What I'm saying is, suppose that Voldy would have concluded from Kreacher information that it is Lupin, not Sirius, that Harry would go to any length to rescue. So in his false vision to Harry he shows Lupin as a hostage in the DoM. Harry rushes to the DoM to rescue Lupin, the Order appears at the last moment to save the day but Lupin get killed. So DD would have said to Harry "the power that took you to save REMUS tonight". This alternative scenario would not have as much impact as the Sirius scenario, of course (because JKR intentionally built GoF and OotP with Sirius as Harry's "mixture of father and brother") but it would still be, IMO, quite plausible. Harry WOULD have rushed to the DoM to save Lupin. So in this chain of cause and effect it was Voldy who decided whom would it be that Harry would go to save. I hope I made myself clearer. Pippin: Was he wrong? Possibly. But can you offer another reason why Dumbledore felt he had to protect Sirius specifically, when he let Arthur and Lupin face danger? Was it because Sirius was too rash to be trusted? That is what Molly thinks. But she conveniently forgot that Lupin and Arthur have been known to act rashly too. Neri: The official reason is the one that Sirius gives Harry at his first day in 12GP: My cover as Padfoot is blown. From Sirius' bitterness ("There's not much I can do for the Order of the Phoenix . . . or so Dumbledore feels") and from DD's words in the end ("I was trying to keep him safe") it seems that it was DD's order. It is possible that DD ordered it because he believed from the beginning that Sirius was the ultimate anti-Harry weapon. It is even possible that he explained this to Sirius and Sirius decided to stay in 12GP, but this is not how I read it. I think DD simply erred in estimating Sirius' specific capabilities and limitations. After all, he made similar errors regarding Harry and Snape. Pippin: No child should have to make such a decision. Dumbledore knew that, so he decided, unwisely, to keep Harry in the dark. Neri: Yes, this is a point I've been trying to make for several months now. It was unwise of DD to keep Harry in the dark, and it was wise of Sirius to want to enlighten Harry. But the myths of wise!DD and irresponsible!Sirius seem to be more powerful than mere canon. Pippin: I can only speak for myself, but I was merely applauding Kneasy for his determination. Did you think I was trying to prove that Dumbledore was evil? Neri: Not at all. When you wrote that Kneasy got the wrong man, I was assuming you meant the right man is ESE!Lupin. Did I understand you correctly? BTW I was just starting to work on my ESE!Harry theory as a pure exercise, but as the clues fall into place it seems more and more logical... Neri From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri May 21 02:51:01 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 02:51:01 -0000 Subject: Happy ending? (was: Sirius' influence on Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99003 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie" wrote: > I must say that the end of OotP left me alarmed for Harry's > future behavior. I know he's the hero of the story, and that > we've been promised a happy ending, but I worry about Harry. Whoa! Julie, can I ask where it is we've been promised a happy ending? I thought that one was one of the big Up In The Airs of the series. Siriusly Snapey Susan From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri May 21 03:08:50 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 03:08:50 -0000 Subject: Prophecy fullfilment in PS/SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Jen: When LV was immortal, it was true that Harry was the only one > with the 'power to vanquish him', because the curse wouldn't > affect him. Now I wonder, though--can someone else kill him in his > mortal state? Because I agree with Carol that Harry can die by other > means, so if "either must die at the hand of the other" leaves > wiggle room for Harry to die on other ways, I wouldn't think LV > would be exempt now, either. > imamommy: I think that LV has done other things to prevent his physical demise; the body he is in now may not be a normal body, susceptible to the same physical hurts as anyone else. Secondly, he's already been reduced to a low spirit form, and come back, so who's to say that wouldn't happen again? He says something to his DE's about the steps he's taken to overcome . And also, what about DD's clue that there are worse things than (physical) ? I think Harry is the only one with the power to make Voldemort go away forever, not just for a season. imamommy From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri May 21 03:19:50 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 03:19:50 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99006 Christelle wrote: Dudley backed into the alley wall. Harry was pointing the wand directly at Dudley's heart. Harry could feel fourteen year's hatred of Dudley pounding in his veins_what wounldn't he give to strike now, to jinx Dudley so thoroughly he'd have to crawl home like an insect, struck dumb, sprouting feelers...* So, there we have... two people who hate each other, one humiliated/hurt by the other before, and the ex-victim ready to make the bully pay, waiting for any excuse to strike. Am I only one who sees the likeness? Do you know of other moments where Snape and Harry had the same reactions in similar situations? vmonte responds: Harry and Snape have similar backgrounds. The difference between them is how they deal with there past. Snape is bitter and cannot let go of the past, while Harry is compassionate and is able to care for others. The begining of OOTP also reminds me of the penseive scene but in a different way. If you didn't know who Dudley was and happened to come upon the scene where Harry is taunting him (the scene right before the dementor attack), what kind of an opinion would you have of Harry? Would you think that Harry was a bully? (I'm not condoning Sirius and James actions towards Snape, but we also don't know anything about what, if anything, may have precipitated that event.) vmonte From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri May 21 03:22:13 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 03:22:13 -0000 Subject: Book 7 predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99007 > Del asked: > > > I still don't see that Harry has any > > > more love or compassion than any average kid. Harry has a lot of > > > qualities, courage and perseverance for example, but he doesn't > > > strike me as either particularly loving or exceptionnally > > > compassionate. Can someone explain that to me yet again :-) ? > > Annemehr answered : > > There is something to say for him in how *unhesitatingly* he runs > > off to "save people." In the day-to-day little things, you don't > > see anything special from him, but when he knows someone, or > > everyone, is in great danger, he wants to help with very little > > thought for his own safety. > > Del replies : > I agree. But I don't think that's just compassion. It's bravery, > courage, self-assurance, recklessness, whatever you want, and > usually based on compassionate feelings, but it's not exceptional > compassion. Annemehr: I haven't been around this list in over a week (May is always a busy month for me), and I've just caught up to your post! Anyway... See, I don't think we can just chalk it up to bravery. Look at the contrast between how Harry rushes off to help and his immediate *dread* when he found out he had to face a dragon. This is the kid who went straight into the lair of a basilisk that could kill him with just a look -- how bad are fifty-foot jets of flame after that? Harry felt the dread about the dragon because there was no need for compassion that could have numbed it. Harry's bravery only seems to kick in to help him do something he feels he has to for some other reason, never just for the sake of doing something dangerous. He seems to me to be quite different from the picture that Sirius painted of James ("The risk would've been what made it fun for James."). Harry never does things out of bravery alone; his bravery only comes out when it's *forced* to, either in service of his compassion or when he's just cornered. That's how I see it, anyway. Del: Most of us, I would think, would have the same impulse > to run and help when someone needs help. But the difference with > Harry is that most of the time, we stop ourselves for following our > impulse. > So yes Harry is exceptional in the way he just goes and does what > needs to be done, no matter how dangerous. But he doesn't do so > because he's any more compassionate or loving that most of us. > That's strictly IMO, of course. Annemehr: Well, he does indeed seem to be braver than average, and he certainly is placed in unique circumstances which make him the "only man for the job." But, IMO, that's not *instead* of being loving, but added to it. One place Harry didn't rush in to help was after the QWC, and this fits one of your (snipped) examples of why people don't help: there are better qualified people around to do so. But, Harry still *cared* about the muggles. He also cared about the Longbottoms, for whom there was no help to be had. No possiblility of recklessness or special circumstances in these examples. Well, that's my Harry, anyway -- there is plenty of love in him as far as I can see. Annemehr who certainly hopes that by now Del is all better :) From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri May 21 03:28:03 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:28:03 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c43ee3$a13db290$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 99008 vmonte beginning of OOTP also reminds me of the pensive scene but in a different way. If you didn't know who Dudley was and happened to come upon the scene where Harry is taunting him (the scene right before the dementor attack), what kind of an opinion would you have of Harry? Would you think that Harry was a bully? (I'm not condoning Sirius and James actions towards Snape, but we also don't know anything about what, if anything, may have precipitated that event.) Sherry replies I wonder, now that the comparison of the two scenes has come into my mind, if Snape saw any of the marauders being attacked by dementors, what would he have done. Harry keeps trying to warn Dudley, even while he's looking for his wand, even after Dudley has just slugged him. That's the thing that always struck me in this scene. Dudley has tormented Harry all these years, but he still tries to protect him and does save him. To me, that shows good stuff in Harry's character. I don't know if I think Snape would have acted the same in similar circumstances. And I'm not one who thinks Snape is a traitor or anything. I find his character to be very complex and interesting. I just think that Harry acted with compassion, and I don't know that Snape would have. I guess it all goes back to Harry's desire to save people. Sherry G From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Fri May 21 03:48:31 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 03:48:31 -0000 Subject: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99009 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > Julie Wrote: > > Tom Riddle is the /Heir/ of Slytherin. Being an heir is more than > being a descendant. An heir, by definition, is "one who inherits or > is entitled to inherit another's property, title, etc." whereas a > descendant is "an offspring of a certain anscestor, family, group" > (Webster's New World Dictionary). Being an heir implies being > designated as such by the person bequeathing the property, etc. > This is especially true in Tom's case. Otherwise, any descendant of > Slytherin would have been able to open the Chamber, control the > Basilisk, etc. What is it about Tom Marvolo Riddle that made him > the HEIR, not just the descendant? His maternal anscestory was full > of descendants of Slytherin, but Tom is the heir. Why? Do we know > yet? > > > Lady Macbeth Replies: > > If his mother's maiden name was Slytherin, and she had no brothers, uncles > or older sisters to inherit the estate, she would have been the rightful > "heir". All of her stuff would have passed onto her husband upon her death; > her wizarding inheritance would have passed onto her wizard children, which > we know of only one - Tom. Upon Tom killing the Riddles, he would have > gotten everything - part of the reason he had no problem obtaining rights to > keep and use the Riddle House. > > -Lady Macbeth > But we're not talking about houses, etc. When Tom refers to himself as the HEIR of Slytherin, he talks of carrying on Salazar Sytherin's noble work. If that was something that was passed down generation upon generation, then why didn't one of his ancestors open the chamber? No, it had to be Tom, the heir. How did he know he was the last remaining heir unless he already planned not to marry and have children. Could it be that this choice precisely was needed to become the heir, the last to carry on the work? Could all descendants of Slytherin speak parseltongue? If not, why not? How was it that Tom could? How did Tom find out how to open the chamber while in school? My theory is that something (and I don't know what) had to happen for Tom to be bequeathed of the powers of Slytherin. Could this be where Grindelwalde comes in? Something has set Tom apart from being more than a descendant. He is an heir. I am a descendant of Jim Bowie, but I'm not an heir. I think we will find out more about how Tom was chosen, just as we will find out how Harry was chosen. Julie From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Fri May 21 03:51:45 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 03:51:45 -0000 Subject: website and canon = Caution and Delight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99010 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Mandy wrote: > > Didn't she say somewhere that one of her favorite authors was Agatha > Christie? > > > vmonte replies: > > Is this true? Does anyone know if this statement is true? If it is > I'm pretty sure I know what character Snape may be based on. > > vmonte I remember reading that in an interview she gave, but I don't know the link. I am an Agatha Christie fan as well, so you have my cuirousity piqued about Snape. Do tell!! Julie From dk59us at yahoo.com Fri May 21 04:02:45 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 04:02:45 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99011 I'll apologize in advance if this has been brought up before... We know that Voldemort knew enough of the prophecy that he was aware that a child born as the 7th month died to parents who had thrice defied him _could_ vanquish him. Apparently he deduced that both Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom _could_ fit that description. We know that he killed James and Lily Potter and marked Harry Potter as the one described in the prophecy, losing his body in the process. Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort decided Harry "the half-blood like himself" was the more likely danger and that's why he went to Godric's Hollow. We also know that Neville's parents were tortured to insanity by Bellatrix LeStrange and company sometime shortly after Godric's Hollow (how long after, though? days? weeks? I can't tell). Allegedly this was done because the Death Eaters were frantic to find Voldemort in the wake of Godric's Hollow. Why did Bellatrix and the others believe that the Longbottoms would have any useful information? Well, here's an idea...probably not original and maybe easily refuted...but anyway: Dumbledore at least seems to assume that Voldemort knew about both children. Now I know that Voldemort regularly does things that seem illogical, but I would think Voldemort would actually want to eliminate both children, not try to _guess_ which one he should kill. I mean, there are two candidates, not a thousand. If he can kill one infant, two wouldn't be that much harder. And it would be so much tidier. The only problem is that he can't kill them at the same time; one has to be first (yes, I know time turners could solve that problem, but let's assume that time turners are not going to be in rampant use in the series). So Voldemort plans to kill the Potters first, then the Longbottoms and he told at least some of the Death Eaters that he would be doing this. But he probably did not confide in even his most trusted followers _why_ he wanted to kill these two families; why give them the idea that he might be vulnerable? There was ample reason to set an example by these murders, as both sets of parents had been thorns in his side. Of course, nobody counted on the rebound of the AK spell that disembodied Voldemort. The Death Eaters knew that the Potters were dead, their house destroyed--all signs of their Dark Lord's success; yes their child had survived, but they probably didn't see the significance of that. The Longbottoms on the other hand were alive and well...how could that be, unless they had somehow defeated/captured/killed Voldemort when he got to them? This is why the LeStranges and Barty Crouch Jr. tortured the Longbottoms (rather than just killing them, for example). By the time it became clear that Frank and Alice had no information, the Crucio curses had driven them mad. Now if this scenario makes sense, it could make Harry's selection over Neville more a matter of random selection or even convenience, rather than a calculated choice of the "half-blood" over the "pure-blood." It doesn't make Harry any less the chosen one of the prophecy, but it could explain why the Longbottoms were tortured. We could also speculate that it creates even stronger ties between Harry and Neville, for though Harry is the marked one, Neville's personality was also marked by the same events. Any thoughts on this? Is this off the wall? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri May 21 04:11:04 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 04:11:04 -0000 Subject: website and canon = Caution and Delight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99012 Julie wrote: I remember reading that in an interview she gave, but I don't know the link. I am an Agatha Christie fan as well, so you have my cuirousity piqued about Snape. Do tell!! vmonte responds: (This is from one of my previous post # 95723) ...Snape is emotionally abusive. He is a powerful manipulator. In one of the books (I cannot remember where) I seem to remember MaGonagall (someone let me know if I'm remembering this correctly) stating that words are often more powerful than magic. This is how I feel about Snape. He is great at verbal manipulation. I sometimes feel that Snape is not on the side of Dumbledore's OOTP, nor Voldemort's DE. He seems to have contempt for both sides, and enjoys manipulating people from both camps. I remember reading Agatha Christie's last Hercule Piorot book (Curtain?)as a kid. The murderer in that book never actually killed anyone. The murderer was great at motivating other people to commit murders. The villian was so talented at emotionally manipulating others that he even makes them think that murder was their own idea. Oh wait, that also reminds me of Iago in Shakespeare's Othello. By the way... How many times did Snape verbally attack Sirius while he was at OOTP headquarters? I remember him basically calling Sirius a coward. Snape knows Sirius, and he knows how to get to him. If he wanted Sirius out of the way, these verbal attacks would work to get Sirius out in the open, away from the safety of headquarters. (This is just a thought. I'm not sure I believe in ESE Snape yet, although he would be a better villian than Voldemort.) vmonte From garybec at yahoo.com Fri May 21 00:48:53 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 00:48:53 -0000 Subject: Fudge & Percy In-Reply-To: <20040520112928.71504.qmail@web50105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99013 > > > I think Arthur will become MoM and Percy will have to eat crow, and > he will never live it down from his brothers. > I am also hoping that Tonks will be the new DADA. > Besides, Percy the DADA? He doesn't really seem the type. moonmyyst: > I am working on getting the canon together for it, but you can see in each book the progression of Percy changing sides. SS/PS has the badge going to his head, CoS you find him sending secret messages from the burrow, caught reading a book on Diagon Alley that has to do with Prefects Who Seek Power. (and what was it that LV said in SS/PS *there is no good and evil - only power and those too weak to seek it* or something to that effect). This is as far as I have been able to get so far as far as specifics, but we see him going on to Head Boy and then his rise at the MoM. This is where I get the idea of him becoming a DE. He is young, he is trying to break out of what he sees as a joke of a family (argument with his dad) and is trying to seek his own power and is seduced into the other side. If he comes back, it will be as a spy. The other side only wants him in order to use him. > > As for the DADA job, who has always wanted it and even when there were no others, was denied for it? What is his one big weakness/hatred? What is the one thing that will swing him back to the other side? And who has already shown himself as a wonderful teacher of the subject? Yes, I think that in some way Harry will be offered the job. Not sure if it will be offered out right or as a teaching assistant or tutor, but either way, it will chap Snape's goat. > > Moonmyyst (hiding behind her shelties, waiting on the poop to fly!!) No poop for Moonmyyst, just some other ideas; From Becki You give valid reasons that Percy is going after power, even though he is a git, he is not evil. He has not shown any signs of being evil and in order to be a DE, you have to be. Even Bellatrix says to Harry in OoP when he attempts an unforgivible curse that you "have to truly mean it" and I don't think he has the evilness. In regards to the next DADA, it couldn't be Harry, for one, he is still a student, and for a second, I am certian that Jo said that Harry could never be a teacher because he could never settle for something that boring, (don't remember the exact wording), that he would need something with a lot of action. I would not rule out that Snape could be the next DADA. McGonnagal did say that Snape only takes students into his NEWT classes with nothing less than an O (outstanding) on their OWLS for him to be an auror. If he was no longer the Potion Master, Harry may be able to get into it and do well. Becki From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Fri May 21 03:37:48 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 03:37:48 -0000 Subject: Caradoc Dearborn In-Reply-To: <20040520080637.20470.qmail@web50606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99014 Tim wrote: > Can any one let me know if Caradoc Dearborn has ever been mentioned on this site? > > Moody mentions him whilst talking to harry and showing him a picture of the old order. He was apparently killed by Death Eaters but they never founf his body!!!!! > > Methinks he may actually be a loyal supporter of Voldy, and is very much alive!!! > > Just an idea I reread this passage and something else occured to me. I have wondered who had approached Pettigrew (Wormtail) to spy against the order. I do not think that Pettegrew would decide to betray his close friends on his own. Somebody must have approached him to put the idea in my head. I have had three candidates, Snape, Lucius Malfoy, or the Dark Lord himself. Depending on when this picture was taken Caradoc Dearborn could have been the one who approached Pettigrew, or gave somebody the idea that Pettigrew was susceptible to turning. Just a posibility or a red herring. Mike Feemster From toptopera at yahoo.com.br Fri May 21 03:36:02 2004 From: toptopera at yahoo.com.br (toptopera) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 03:36:02 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: <000001c43ee3$a13db290$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > Sherry replies > > I wonder, now that the comparison of the two scenes has come into my mind, > if Snape saw any of the marauders being attacked by dementors, what would he > have done. toptopera replies: But we know exactly what Snape'd do when he'd seea marauder facing a dementor. In the end of PoA, he refused to believe Sirius's story and would gladly receive an Order of Merlin for having him capture and kissed. From erikal at magma.ca Fri May 21 06:31:10 2004 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 01:31:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione as Harry's Anima (Was: Clues for SHIPS) Message-ID: <00cb01c43efd$35762640$9ea31a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 99016 Sienna wrote: >What follows is not a discussion on the totality of the >archetypal imagery within Harry Potter (of which there >is a lot). This essay focuses solely on the archetypal >imagery surrounding Hermione and her place within >the Harry Potter universe. Before beginning I thought I'd mention, for anyone interested, that this summer there's going to be a Harry Potter convention in Ottawa (www.conventionalley.org) and one of our presenters will be discussing Jungian archetypes in HP. First I'd like to say congratulations on managing such a concise and accessible summary of archetypes and the anima and offering some really intriguing analysis of the text. Like you, though, I'd like to add a major disclaimer here and say that my knowledge of Jung is largely second hand. I have a general familiarity with the concepts due to having a mother who's a Jungian, and I've read bits and pieces. I'm not sure that I can really engage with you on the same level even, but I did a little reading in the last couple of days and thought I'd toss in a few random observations on the subject. I hope you'll forgive me, though, if I just end up looking like Luna reading the Quibbler upside down- or worse, sounding like Professor Binns ;) There are a few issues I wanted to bring up related to the anima in HP. First is the fact that I think one could argue that the anima is represented by different characters at various point in the story, though I tend to agree that Hermione increasingly takes on this role. I was reading an argument recently which, while focussing on Hermione as anima, also pointed to other characters who take on the role of "maiden" (also called "Kore" in Jung). Again, I should stress my limited knowledge here as I'm basing most of my understanding on Jung's "The Psychological Aspects of the Kore." from _The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious_ . Ginny in CoS certainly is cast in the role of maiden (think damsel in distress). "The maiden's helplessness exposes her to all sorts of dangers, for instance of being devoured by reptiles or ritually slaughtered like a beast of sacrifice. Often there are bloody, cruel, and even obscene orgies to which the innocent child falls victim." (_The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious_ para 311) Sound familiar at all? Ginny's innocence makes her vulnerable to diary!Tom, which eventually leads to her being taken down into the Chamber, guarded of course by the Basilisk, where she becomes a quasi-sacrifice to diary!Tom. This process, I would argue, does represent a sort of loss of innocence for Ginny; she is more-or-less seduced by diary!Tom and the result is a gross mental/emotional violation. There's a certain parallel to Persephone who is raped by Hades and taken to the underworld to be his bride. On the other hand, though Ginny takes clearly takes on the role of maiden in CoS, particularly of the damsel in distress variety, Hermione has as well. After all, Harry first becomes friends with Hermione thanks to the incident with the troll in which, for a brief time, she too becomes a damsel in distress. >As a character, Hermione has come to increasingly >embody Harry's anima. In her essay, The Secrets of >Harry Potter >(http://www.cgjungpage.org/content/view/145/28/), >Jungian analyst Gail Grynbaum refers to Hermione as >a soror mystica: >'At school, Harry goes through his Training with two >new friends, Hermione Granger, a soror mystica who >is also a lively, challenging presence, and Ron >Weasley, a good brother figure.' >The term soror mystica literally means `mystical >sister' -- the female half of the male-female >partnership. In alchemical literature, these two >together seek the philosopher's stone. >Hermione's and Harry's shared muggle experience is >an important foundation for this mirroring. They both >enter as outsiders into the magical world. I found the argument to be very interesting. I wanted to add a couple of ideas that I found while reading. "In the products of unconscious activity, the anima appears equally ad maiden and mother" "the anima is bipolar and can therefore appear positive one moment and negative the next; now young, now old, now mother, now maiden; now a good fairy, now a witch; now a saint, now a whore." (_Archetypes _ para 356) I thought this suggestion of the dual aspect of the anima was quite interesting in relation to Hermione as it oftentimes seems to me that she does have a very dualistic role in Harry's life. As I suggested earlier, she does take on the role of maiden, but is also at times the mother-hen. She can be regarded at one moment as a faithful helper to Harry and at the next, as an overprotective or nagging nuisance. Even the saint/whore dichotomy appears in GoF thanks to Rita Skeeter's articles where Hermione is portrayed first as Harry's loving girlfriend, and later as the treacherous scarlet woman. Here's another bit which I found amusing, though I'm likely taking it out of context: "Whenever she [the anima] emerges with some degree of clarity, she always has a peculiar relationship to time: as a rule she is more or less immortal, because outside of time. [...] In all these accounts, the anima is outside of time as we know it and consequently immensely old or a being who belongs to a different order of things." (_Archetypes _ para 356) While I realize that Hermione doesn't really correspond with the types of female figures described above, ones who exist outside of time (would Dante's Beatrice qualify as such a figure perhaps?), I still found it amusing as we do see Hermione having "a peculiar relationship to time" in PoA thanks to her use of the time turner. Maybe not the most useful observation, but I got a kick out so it so I thought I'd throw it in. I have to say that it is a bit tricky trying to make actual predictions based on a psychoanalytical approach to the text. If nothing else, Jungian interpretation is really meant to analyse dreams as well as myths and fairy tales, all of which are far more connected to the collective unconscious. Though unconscious elements work their way into the novels, it remains that they are a conscious creation and thus are subject to conscious intent far more than dreams. Then there's the further complication of the fact that, though we're dealing with a male protagonist, he is the creation of a female writer. This has interesting implications in terms of how we perceive Harry as a male ego figure. Actually, there's an article by Ximena Gallardo-C and C. Jason Smith which makes some interesting observation regarding gendering in the HP novels ("Cindefella: J.K. Rowling's Wily Web of Gender" from _Reading Harry Potter: Critical Essays_ ed Giselle Liza Anatol) All this to say that think I'll forego drawing specific conclusions from the varied observations I've made. Hope some bit of that was useful. Best, Erika (Wolfraven) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 21 06:04:15 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 06:04:15 -0000 Subject: What was Arthur Weasley doing when he was bitten? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ntillman" wrote: > I have been searching across the internet for fact or discussion or > theory on this point. JKR is deliberately not explicit about > activity or place when Mr. Weasley is bitten in OotP (p.462). As > far as I can tell, the location is an important wizarding place, > with metal bars, stone floors and at least two headmaster pictures > (Everard and Elfrida Cragg) upstairs. If this has been munched over > before, I beg pardon and would appreciate being pointed in the > proper direction. > > -nrt bboy_mn: I think all indications, and most assumptions, are that Mr. Weasley was in the hallway outside the Dept. of Mysteries standing (actually sitting) guard. JKR can't flatly state that because Harry doesn't recognise the place. Since we see everything from Harry's point of view, that's means Harry can't reveal it, and therefore the author can't reveal it directly, but I think there are enough clues there. Just a thought. bboy_mn From alina at distantplace.net Fri May 21 06:26:43 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (alina at distantplace.net) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 02:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <45795.127.0.0.1.1085120803.squirrel@www.distantplace.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99018 Wanda wrote: A few days ago, there was a little discussion about the Riddle family, with posters clearing up confusions over just who was who, and who killed whom. It's easy to get confused, as there are two Tom Riddles to keep track of. And then it occurred to me...how very odd that that would be the case! It's unusual in Rowling's books for a father and son to have the same name. In fact, I can think of only one other example: Barty Crouch Sr. and Jr. Now, it was significant for the plot that the two Crouches shared a name, because it succeeded in throwing a red herring across our path when Harry saw the name on the Marauder's Map. This leads me to believe that such an unusual occurrence in the Riddle family might ALSO be of use, plot-wise. Can anyone think of any reasons why Tom Riddle would have to have the same name as his father? Because I really do think that it's going to turn out to advance the plot somehow. My reply: I don't have my books at hand, but I believe in his conversation with Harry, the 16 year old Riddle said something along the lines of his name being the only thing his muggle father left him. Come to think of it, maybe he said that during the graveyard resurrection scene, either way I'm pretty sure he said something to that extent. Basically, I think that's the whole significance of the same father/son name in this case. That Voldemort, for all his pure-blooded, anti-muggle/mudblood zeal has to go through life with a muggle name. Alina, who, for all her hatred for Voldemort, derives pleasure from the image of Malfoy serving the whims of a "mudblood." From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Fri May 21 10:35:38 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:35:38 -0000 Subject: Nott, Malfoy and Narcissa. Re: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > > > Potioncat...who wonders if we have a counterpart for ESE! to use > for > > > bad characters who might really be good? > > > > ETG! Evil Turned Good ??? > > > > moonmyyst > AmanitaMuscaria here - How about EBGB? (Evil But Good Basically)! Cheers. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri May 21 10:41:57 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:41:57 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Not at all. When you wrote that Kneasy got the wrong man, I was > assuming you meant the right man is ESE!Lupin. Did I understand you > correctly? BTW I was just starting to work on my ESE!Harry theory as > a pure exercise, but as the clues fall into place it seems more and > more logical... > Good oh! Another potential character assassin! It's quite possible that Kneasy has got the wrong man; not that that would bother me much. My posts are constructed as mental exercises in a last ditch attempt to stave off a decline into mumbling senility and addiction to TV soaps as much as anything else. And I just love playing with words. But you put your finger on a key point; the ambiguity of character in the books. Once you start to look it's almost certain that you'll find phrases, actions that are incongruent with the accepted consensus of their role in the story. So you look a bit closer, and wonder a bit more - is that a clue or a red herring? Who knows? But it'd make a fun post. Eventually a detailed analysis appears - "J'accuse!" followed, if you're lucky, by responses that range from canon based refutation (the best), to wishful thinking non-canon theories (usually easy to counter), to appeals not to spoil the kiddies fun (to be ignored). That'll keep the old keyboard active for a while. Then you can do it all over again with somebody else. Splendid! Submitting Harry to radical re-assessment might be a bit extreme for some, but it's quite possible to build up a case that presents him as ESE using canon as the basis for the theory. I await your presentation with interest and may have a few things to contribute to the fun and games myself. Kneasy From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 21 12:01:16 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 12:01:16 -0000 Subject: Look out for Squidward, was meta analysis of rumor section of JKR site In-Reply-To: <20040521003748.36178.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99021 "K" wrote: > In fact, it's quite popular among Snape fans that Squidward is THE Snape in the Spongebob > universe. He got a big hook nose, grumpy, lonely and is always mean to Spongebob. And > there are discussion topic "anyone notice Squidward is a lot like Snape"over at Mugglenet > where JKR chat at. > > Also, did you all see JKR's cute curly doodles around Snape's name in that Sorting Hat > sketch note? Isn't that cute? > Potioncat: No theory about Snape, nothing, no matter how vile, has bothered me as much as the comparison of Squidward to Snape!!!!! As a mom of a young boy, I have to hear SpongeBob every day and will most likely attend the movie....and now I will be thinking "That's Snape." Does that mean Planton is LV? BTW, what curly doodles and what sorting hat sketch note? Potioncat who aplogizes if this is way too OT. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 21 12:23:50 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 12:23:50 -0000 Subject: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99022 snipping some posts > bboy_mn: > When Carol says Theo is left 'without a parent', I hope she doesn't > mean that Nott Sr is dead, because that isn't how I read it. > > I think we could assume that Nott was capture, but I'm not sure that's > actually stated in the book, so until the next books confirm or deny > it, it can never be more than an assumption. It's possible that since > Nott was off by himself when the Order appeared, he may have been able > to escape. > Potioncat: Yes, but Jo says he was seriously injured, and that would mean he didn't escape. If he did escape, I'd hardly think he'd be able to meet Theo at the train. So the boy would still be without a parent. bboy_mn wrote: > While it would make for an interesting story for Theo Nott to spend > the summer with someone else, how would we learn that? How could we > gain that knowledge given that the story is from Harry's point of > view? True it could be stated in conversation, but that wouldn't give > us much insight. Don't see how it could advance the plot unless Harry > can somehow be involved. Potioncat: Yeah, you're right. Unless there is some reason for them to come into contact, we may never know. In fact it's also possible that the situation won't be mentioned in the book at all. It'll just be a piece of information that the real fanatics have about a character, but the casual reader won't know about. But I'm thinking that Theo is going to be more important in the upcoming books and his summer may play into it. bboy_mn wrote: > I would love to read the unpublished conversation between Theo and > Draco (referenced on JKR's website). Partly, of course, for the > insight into Theo, but for me, more so for the insight into Draco. snip But it would be very interesting to see > Draco in a conversation with someone who is his equal or superior in > heritage and intellect, and more so, with someone who is not the least > bit impressed or intimidated by Draco. Potioncat: So would I! That would be a nice reward to have on the site. If it would advance the plot in some way, Jo could have Harry overhear a conversation between them at Hogwarts. Potioncat From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri May 21 12:58:38 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 12:58:38 -0000 Subject: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99023 Julie: > But we're not talking about houses, etc. When Tom refers to himself > as the HEIR of Slytherin, he talks of carrying on Salazar Sytherin's > noble work. If that was something that was passed down generation > upon generation, then why didn't one of his ancestors open the > chamber? No, it had to be Tom, the heir. How did he know he was > the last remaining heir unless he already planned not to marry and > have children. Could it be that this choice precisely was needed to > become the heir, the last to carry on the work? Jen: You ask a good question about why no one else opened the Chamber before Tom. And how *did* he know he was the Heir of Slytherin? Personally, I like the idea that he became the heir when he opened the chamber and not before. Tom was born a parselmmouth and descended from Slytherin, but it was putting two & two together-- researching Slytherin and the Chamber until he realized the mystery to open it--that he became the Heir of Slytherin. Pippin was proposing in post # 98774, that Slytherin left "goodies" in the Chamber for whoever discovered and opened it. Presumably those things would assist the Heir in his mission. Julie: > Could all descendants of Slytherin speak parseltongue? If not, why > not? How was it that Tom could? How did Tom find out how to open > the chamber while in school? My theory is that something (and I > don't know what) had to happen for Tom to be bequeathed of the > powers of Slytherin. Could this be where Grindelwalde comes in? > I think we will find out more about how Tom was chosen, just as we > will find out how Harry was chosen. Jen: I keep thinking Grindelwald will come into play again and this would be an interesting twist. JKR promised us in the chat we would find out more about Riddle's birth--I hope that information will answer the question of how Tom discovered his origins. Some say it was through a letter written by his Mom, but...Does he have a scar somewhere, too? Was another Prophecy made about "The Heir of Slytherin approaches...." Hehe. Jen, who just saw "The Alamo" movie and wonders if Julie lives in Texas since she descended from Jim Bowie? From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 21 13:04:19 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:04:19 -0000 Subject: Look out for Squidward, was meta analysis of rumor section of JKR site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99024 "k": > > Also, did you all see JKR's cute curly doodles around Snape's name in that Sorting Hat sketch note? Isn't that cute?<< Potioncat: > BTW, what curly doodles and what sorting hat sketch note? > Pippin: They're in the hidden content. You'll have to solve a puzzle to get to them (search for hints over on OT-Chatter.) But yes, I did notice them. I was immediately reminded of this from CoS "*Why*," demanded Ron, seizing [Hermione's] schedule, "have you outlined all Lockhart's lessons in little hearts?" Who'd want Snape in love with them? Ah, JkR, we know your secret now! Pippin who thinks she heard JKR's site make rooster sounds as the sun came up. Way cool From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 21 13:12:47 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:12:47 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99025 > toptopera replies: > > But we know exactly what Snape'd do when he'd see a marauder facing a dementor. In the end of PoA, he refused to believe Sirius's story and would gladly receive an Order of Merlin for having him capture and kissed.< That's what he says. But Snape's actions are often at odds with his words. When he comes to and sees the Dementors returning to their stations at the gates, Sirius is utterly in his power. He does not turn Sirius over to the Dementors. Instead he puts Sirius on a stretcher, treating him with far more dignity that Sirius accorded to him, and turns him over to Dumbledore. Pippin From dk59us at yahoo.com Fri May 21 13:22:09 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:22:09 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99026 Further on the above subject: After a few hours sleep, I've realized that of course the Fidelius Charm and the identity of the Potters' Secret Keeper played a role in Voldemort's decision on which family to hit first, at least as to when to act. But that doesn't rule out the possibility that he intended to kill the Longbottoms as well. I don't think canon tells us whether Dumbledore advised the Longbottoms to go into hiding as well, does it? If they did, then it would seem unlikely that both families' Secret Keepers would betray them at the same time and that _would_ kill off my theory. But if so, would the Longbottoms have emerged from hiding so quickly after Godric's Hollow that Bella and the gang would be able to find and torture them? I'm guessing they weren't in hiding before or after Godric's Hollow. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 21 13:26:42 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:26:42 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99027 > > > toptopera replies: > > > > But we know exactly what Snape'd do when he'd see a > marauder facing a dementor. In the end of PoA, he refused to > believe Sirius's story and would gladly receive an Order of Merlin > for having him capture and kissed.< Pippin wrote: > That's what he says. But Snape's actions are often at odds with > his words. When he comes to and sees the Dementors > returning to their stations at the gates, Sirius is utterly in his > power. He does not turn Sirius over to the Dementors. Instead > he puts Sirius on a stretcher, treating him with far more dignity > that Sirius accorded to him, and turns him over to Dumbledore. Potioncat agrees: Yes, and this is before DD has revealed Black as a good guy. Snape has every reason to think Black is a murderer. Or at best, only a slight reason to doubt it. Potioncat From jlaming426 at aol.com Fri May 21 13:37:58 2004 From: jlaming426 at aol.com (jimlaming) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:37:58 -0000 Subject: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99028 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Julie: > > But we're not talking about houses, etc. When Tom refers to > himself > > as the HEIR of Slytherin, he talks of carrying on Salazar > Sytherin's > > noble work. SNIP > Jen: You ask a good question about why no one else opened the > Chamber before Tom. And how *did* he know he was the Heir of > Slytherin? Personally, I like the idea that he became the heir when > he opened the chamber and not before. Tom was born a parselmmouth > and descended from Slytherin, but it was putting two & two together- - > researching Slytherin and the Chamber until he realized the mystery > to open it--that he became the Heir of Slytherin. > > Pippin was proposing in post # 98774, that Slytherin left "goodies" > in the Chamber for whoever discovered and opened it. Presumably > those things would assist the Heir in his mission. > > Julie: > > Could all descendants of Slytherin speak parseltongue? If not, > why > > not? How was it that Tom could? How did Tom find out how to open > > the chamber while in school? My theory is that something (and I > > don't know what) had to happen for Tom to be bequeathed of the > > powers of Slytherin. Could this be where Grindelwalde comes in? > > I think we will find out more about how Tom was chosen, just as we > > will find out how Harry was chosen. > > Jen: I keep thinking Grindelwald will come into play again and this > would be an interesting twist. JKR promised us in the chat we would > find out more about Riddle's birth--I hope that information will > answer the question of how Tom discovered his origins. Some say it > was through a letter written by his Mom, but...Does he have a scar > somewhere, too? Was another Prophecy made about "The Heir of > Slytherin approaches...." Hehe. Jim Postulates: I have always thought that there would have been clues left by SS that would lead the candidate along the path to becoming the Heir, al la daVinci code. If the candidate could recognize this clue it would lead them to the next clue and the next until the candidate had proven themselves both physically capable, mentally attuned and magically skilled enough to be bestowed with the gifts found in the chamber. SS wanted to purify the school and the WW. TR updated that with his own goal of getting Harry and on to WW domination. I wouder... here I go asking questions again... would SS have approved of the new goals? JimLaming, always asking questions... From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri May 21 14:00:53 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 14:00:53 -0000 Subject: Nott, Malfoy and Narcissa. Re: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99029 > Potioncat...who wonders if we have a counterpart for ESE! to > use for bad characters who might really be good? > moonmyyst wrote: > ETG! Evil Turned Good ??? > AmanitaMuscaria wrote: > How about EBGB? (Evil But Good Basically)! Mandy here: EBBG! Evil But Basically Good has a better ring to it somehow. I still like the boring but straightforward ESG! Ever So Good! As I said in the spin off thread from this conversation which I renamed the Ever So Good!Bad Person, (98971) there aren't many to choose from. Here are the ones I came up with: ESG!Lucius. Could potentially be SPY!Lucius but he only works for himself so he can't really qualify for ESG!Lucius. ESG!Draco has potential only if some big event changes he perception of the world and he decides to help Harry. ESG!Narciss is my personal favorite see above mentioned post number 98971 ESG!Bellatrix no, no, no, no, no! Again, as I said before, we have a desperate need for evil witches as much as we do ESG!Bad People. ESG!Crabe and Goyle. Well, they would do anything their told, so that's boring. ESG!Karkaroff might be interesting if he doesn't get killed by Voldemort first. ESG!Fudge, humm that too might be interesting. Could Fudge really be working for DD? He could decide to move over to DD side in a desperate atempt to stay in the position of Minister of Magic. ESG!Percy. Let's hope so. He could realize his mistake and go weeping back to mum and dad to fight hard for the Order. ESG!Umbridge. The Centaurs taught her to see the light and now she is truly repentant? Nope. Same applies to Umbridge as to Bellatrix let's keep the evil witches we already have. ESG!Any Other Death Eater. Do any of them have the gut to betray Voldemort? But this option is covered by Snape anyway. Any others: Cheers Mandy Sorry to repeat anything I wrote in my other post that is similar to this one. I couldn't resist the chance to respond here. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 21 14:29:53 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 14:29:53 -0000 Subject: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99030 Neri: > > When you wrote that Kneasy got the wrong man, I was assuming you meant the right man is ESE!Lupin. Did I understand you correctly? BTW I was just starting to work on my ESE!Harry theory as a pure exercise, but as the clues fall into place it seems more and more logical...<< Pippin: Yes, that is what I meant. And I know the feeling Kneasy: >> Good oh! Another potential character assassin! It's quite possible that Kneasy has got the wrong man; not that that would bother me much. My posts are constructed as mental exercises in a last ditch attempt to stave off a decline into mumbling senility and addiction to TV soaps as much as anything else. And I just love playing with words. But you put your finger on a key point; the ambiguity of character in the books. Once you start to look it's almost certain that you'll find phrases, actions that are incongruent with the accepted consensus of their role in the story. So you look a bit closer, and wonder a bit more - is that a clue or a red herring? Who knows? But it'd make a fun post. << Pippin: The ambiguity lends itself to the intellectual exercise. But there's something else in it for me. HP is a bildungsroman about a boy who has neither family, friends nor teachers who care about him until he comes to Hogwarts. Naturally he tends to idealize them. The fairy tale atmosphere of the work invites the reader to escape into this fantasy along with Harry -- who wouldn't want a friend like Ron, a father figure like Dumbledore, a brother as devoted as Sirius, a teacher as brilliant as Lupin? But Harry is being brought, slowly and inexorably, down to earth. What has he still got to learn? In real life your beloved friends, family and teachers can let you down. They can, though they honestly care about you and vice versa, knowingly and deliberately act against your interests. And ironically enough, because they do value the relationship, they may do it behind your back. Of course that's what Ron thought Harry had done in GoF. Some readers thought Ron had violated some sort of code by even suspecting Harry. They've been expecting ESE!Ron ever since. But what Ron really did was violate the reader's expectations by accusing Harry of something no idealized friend would ever do. Ron understands that even in the magical world just caring about someone doesn't make you a saint. Harry has yet to learn it. The question of course, is what will happen when he does. I don't expect Harry, or the books, to descend all the way from romantic idealism to nihilism, though it could happen, and that would give us ESE!Harry, I suppose. But I suspect the books will lend themselves to the conclusion that ideals exist and have value, even if none of us can live up to them "It is only by preserving faith in human dreams that we may, after all, perhaps some day make them come true." ? James Branch Cabel. Pippin also awaiting ESE!Harry From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri May 21 15:35:01 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 15:35:01 -0000 Subject: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99031 Pippin: > In real life your beloved friends, family and teachers can let you > down. They can, though they honestly care about you and vice > versa, knowingly and deliberately act against your interests. And > ironically enough, because they do value the relationship, they > may do it behind your back. > > Of course that's what Ron thought Harry had done in GoF. > Some readers thought Ron had violated some sort of code by > even suspecting Harry. They've been expecting ESE!Ron ever > since. > > But what Ron really did was violate the reader's expectations by > accusing Harry of something no idealized friend would ever do. > Ron understands that even in the magical world just caring > about someone doesn't make you a saint. Harry has yet to learn > it. Jen: I thought that was the whole point of OOTP, that Harry saw all the previous fairy-tale elements of the WW in a new light: His once beloved Sirius took a nose-dive long before he fell through the veil; James & Sirius were depicted as bullies; Dumbledore shows signs of weakness and admits he made mistakes; Molly's once welcome ministrations were seen as mollycoddling; the MOM & Fudge were found to be corrupt and guilty of censorship at the highest levels. Why does JKR have to go further to make the point that Harry no longer idealizes the WW? She said in her recent chat that Harry will begin to master his emotions and make a contribution, since the war is on. To me, that means Harry's downhill slide will curve back up in the final two books. Pipin: > The question of course, is what will happen when he does. I > don't expect Harry, or the books, to descend all the way from > romantic idealism to nihilism, though it could happen, and that > would give us ESE!Harry, I suppose. But I suspect the books will > lend themselves to the conclusion that ideals exist and have > value, even if none of us can live up to them > > "It is only by preserving faith in human dreams that we may, after > all, perhaps some day make them come true." ? James Branch > Cabel. Jen: Harry already understands how many ways there are for people to let him down, and he still finds hope when he's by the lake, when he talks to Luna, and in the last sentence of OOTP: "He somehow could not find words to tell them what it meant to him, to see them all ranged there, on his side. Instead, he smiled, raised a hand in farewell, turned around, and led the way out of the station toward the sunlit street, with Unlce Vernon, Aunt Petunia, and Dudley hurrying along in his wake." I love that scene, Harry walking toward the sunlight, the imperfect people he loves most in the world supporting him, and the Durlsey's 'following in his wake'. I'd say he's arrived. From jferer at yahoo.com Fri May 21 15:52:31 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 15:52:31 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > Further on the above subject: > > After a few hours sleep, I've realized that of course the Fidelius > Charm and the identity of the Potters' Secret Keeper played a role in > Voldemort's decision on which family to hit first, at least as to when > to act. > > But that doesn't rule out the possibility that he intended to kill the > Longbottoms as well. I don't think canon tells us whether Dumbledore > advised the Longbottoms to go into hiding as well, does it? If they > did, then it would seem unlikely that both families' Secret Keepers > would betray them at the same time and that _would_ kill off my > theory. But if so, would the Longbottoms have emerged from hiding so > quickly after Godric's Hollow that Bella and the gang would be able to > find and torture them? I'm guessing they weren't in hiding before or > after Godric's Hollow. I've believed this as well, and called it the "King Herod" solution. But why wait until he found out where the Potters were? To avoid the other family going into hiding by doing both in one night. I think you've made an excellent case why the Longbottoms weren't in hiding. Like you, I can't imagine why Voldemort would kill one family and spare the other. He certainly isn't worried about the injustice of it. Jim Ferer From burgess at cynjut.net Fri May 21 15:48:07 2004 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:48:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Look out for squidward. In-Reply-To: <1085135790.6870.10513.m16@yahoogroups.com> References: <1085135790.6870.10513.m16@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <57704.143.250.2.102.1085154487.squirrel@www2.neonramp.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99033 > -Dhyana, who wonders how many 'Squidwards' mugglenet has now. After I get it fixed, I could log on and check - I own the server. Right now it's down with a flaky problem that looks like it could be a bad memory stick. Dave From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Fri May 21 16:12:56 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 16:12:56 -0000 Subject: ETG Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99034 First, just wanted to note that the poster (a new poster?) signing off as Lady Macbeth is NOT me changing my spelling, its someone else. Moving on the topic of ETG "Evil Turned Good" Snape, at least appears to DD, to be ETG. I also thing the argument of the Good Slytherine falls into this catagory. The picture Jo has painted of the Slytherine house is certainly NOT positive! Are there other possibilities? I rather like Lucius Malfoy for this role. He's been seen selling off some of his dark wares. He's concerned about getting caught with them. I realize that he's in Azkaban at the moment, but I feel like Lucius is only concerned with Lucius and could really care less about the Dark Lord. An alliance with Voldemort was the means to an end: power. His usefulness for Voldemort is pretty much used up. He's been outed as a Death Eater to the entire wizarding world. Perhaps its time to switch sides. Mussolini(sp?) anybody? I could see his dear friend Severus convincing him to use what's left of the Malfoy money for a better cause. He's certainly not going to prosper if he continues down the road he was on! Lady McBeth, grades are turned in, three more days of teaching and then I'm free! I feel like I've been given clothes! (Until August anyway!) From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri May 21 16:27:27 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 16:27:27 -0000 Subject: Hermione as Harry's Anima (Was: Clues for SHIPS) In-Reply-To: <00cb01c43efd$35762640$9ea31a40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99035 > Sienna wrote: > > >What follows is not a discussion on the totality of the > >archetypal imagery within Harry Potter (of which there >is a lot). This essay focuses solely on the archetypal >imagery surrounding Hermione and her place within >the Harry Potter universe. > > > Before beginning I thought I'd mention, for anyone interested, that this summer there's going to be a Harry Potter convention in Ottawa (www.conventionalley.org) and one of our presenters will be discussing Jungian archetypes in HP. > > First I'd like to say congratulations on managing such a concise and accessible summary of archetypes and the anima and offering some really intriguing analysis of the text. Like you, though, I'd like to add a major disclaimer here and say that my knowledge of Jung is largely second hand. I have a general familiarity with the concepts due to having a mother who's a Jungian, and I've read bits and pieces. I'm not sure that I can really engage with you on the same level even, but I did a little reading in the last couple of days and thought I'd toss in a few random observations on the subject. I hope you'll forgive me, though, if I just end up looking like Luna reading the Quibbler upside down- or worse, sounding like Professor Binns ;) > > There are a few issues I wanted to bring up related to the anima in HP. First is the fact that I think one could argue that the anima is represented by different characters at various point in the story, though I tend to agree that Hermione increasingly takes on this role. I was reading an argument recently which, while focussing on Hermione as anima, also pointed to other characters who take on the role of "maiden" (also called "Kore" in Jung). Again, I should stress my limited knowledge here as I'm basing most of my understanding on Jung's "The Psychological Aspects of the Kore." from _The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious_ . Ginny in CoS certainly is cast in the role of maiden (think damsel in distress). "The maiden's helplessness exposes her to all sorts of dangers, for instance of being devoured by reptiles or ritually slaughtered like a beast of sacrifice. Often there are bloody, cruel, and even obscene orgies to which the innocent child falls victim." (_The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious_ para 311) Sound familiar at all? Ginny's innocence makes her vulnerable to diary!Tom, which eventually leads to her being taken down into the Chamber, guarded of course by the Basilisk, where she becomes a quasi-sacrifice to diary!Tom. This process, I would argue, does represent a sort of loss of innocence for Ginny; she is more-or-less seduced by diary!Tom and the result is a gross mental/emotional violation. There's a certain parallel to Persephone who is raped by Hades and taken to the underworld to be his bride. > > On the other hand, though Ginny takes clearly takes on the role of maiden in CoS, particularly of the damsel in distress variety, Hermione has as well. After all, Harry first becomes friends with Hermione thanks to the incident with the troll in which, for a brief time, she too becomes a damsel in distress. > > >As a character, Hermione has come to increasingly >embody Harry's anima. In her essay, The Secrets of >Harry Potter > >(http://www.cgjungpage.org/content/view/145/28/), >Jungian analyst Gail Grynbaum refers to Hermione as >a soror mystica: > > >'At school, Harry goes through his Training with two >new friends, Hermione Granger, a soror mystica who >is also a lively, challenging presence, and Ron >Weasley, a good brother figure.' > > >The term soror mystica literally means `mystical >sister' -- the female half of the male-female >partnership. In alchemical literature, these two >together seek the philosopher's stone. > >Hermione's and Harry's shared muggle experience is >an important foundation for this mirroring. They both >enter as outsiders into the magical world. > > I found the argument to be very interesting. I wanted to add a couple of ideas that I found while reading. > > "In the products of unconscious activity, the anima appears equally ad maiden and mother" > > "the anima is bipolar and can therefore appear positive one moment and negative the next; now young, now old, now mother, now maiden; now a good fairy, now a witch; now a saint, now a whore." > > (_Archetypes _ para 356) > > I thought this suggestion of the dual aspect of the anima was quite interesting in relation to Hermione as it oftentimes seems to me that she does have a very dualistic role in Harry's life. As I suggested earlier, she does take on the role of maiden, but is also at times the mother-hen. She can be regarded at one moment as a faithful helper to Harry and at the next, as an overprotective or nagging nuisance. Even the saint/whore dichotomy appears in GoF thanks to Rita Skeeter's articles where Hermione is portrayed first as Harry's loving girlfriend, and later as the treacherous scarlet woman. > > > All this to say that think I'll forego drawing specific conclusions from the varied observations I've made. Hope some bit of that was useful. > > Best, > > Erika (Wolfraven) > > Thank you, Erika and Sienna, for the well-informed, well-thought-out exploration of Hermione's role as Harry's anima... Your points are extremely compelling. It will be interesting to see if Harry tries to marry his anima or to integrate it in another way.... ;-) From dk59us at yahoo.com Fri May 21 16:31:03 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 16:31:03 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99036 Jim Ferer wrote: > > I've believed this as well, and called it the "King Herod" solution. > But why wait until he found out where the Potters were? To avoid the > other family going into hiding by doing both in one night. > > I think you've made an excellent case why the Longbottoms weren't in > hiding. > > Like you, I can't imagine why Voldemort would kill one family and > spare the other. He certainly isn't worried about the injustice of it. > > Jim Ferer Eustace_Scrubb again: I was also thinking of that analogy...but King Herod should have had it so easy--only two innocents to worry about! But what bothers me about this now is: was Dumbledore so certain that Voldemort would either (a) attack only the Potters; or (b) attack the Potters and be annihilated as a result--that he failed to urge the Longbottoms into hiding as well? I suppose they could have rejected the suggestion, too. Perhaps Neville will never be alone in Dumbledore's office with the opportunity to rant at DD as Harry did, but he may have just as much right. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri May 21 17:05:55 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 17:05:55 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99037 > Eustace_Scrubb again: > I was also thinking of that analogy...but King Herod should have had > it so easy--only two innocents to worry about! > But what bothers me about this now is: was Dumbledore so certain that Voldemort would either (a) attack only the Potters; or (b) attack the Potters and be annihilated as a result--that he failed to urge the > Longbottoms into hiding as well? I suppose they could have rejected > the suggestion, too. Perhaps Neville will never be alone in > Dumbledore's office with the opportunity to rant at DD as Harry did, > but he may have just as much right. Mandy here: But perhaps the Longbottoms were in hiding and, foolishly, came out after they heard that Voldemort had been vanquished by little baby Harry? Perhaps Voldemort had intended to kill both boys that night, had gotten the Secret Keeper/s of both families, and just happened to pick the Potters first? Perhaps Voldemort was accompanied by his DE's, who after witnessing the disintegration of Voldemort fled. Bellatrix, who to me seems to be Voldemort right hand, may have known about his intention to kill both boys, went after the Longbottoms later, because knowing that they were also on Voldemort hit list that night, the Longbottoms might know something about what actually happened to her Master. Bellatrix, the Lestranges and Crouch could have also been torturing the Longbottoms not just for information on Voldemort's whereabouts, but also the whereabouts of baby Neville to finish the job. We don't know exactly when the Bellatrix, the Lestrages and Crouch Jr. went after the Longbottoms, and it could have been immediately after the events at Godrick's Hollow, or from a couple of hours to a couple of days or even weeks. I think we are going to have to wait for more canon on this one. Cheers Mandy. From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Fri May 21 17:09:54 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 12:09:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ETG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99038 Lady McBeth wrote: First, just wanted to note that the poster (a new poster?) signing off as Lady Macbeth is NOT me changing my spelling, its someone else. Lady Macbeth replies: My bad. ^_^; I've been lurking for a long time and saw your sig pop up, but I didn't even think to mention it when I delurked! I've actually been here quite a long time (can't remember the exact date, but I know I was on this list when I got ownership of the "Snapefans" ML back in December of 2002) but I tend to have long periods of lurkerdom, particularly during tough semesters at college, like my last one was. ^_^; Lady McBeth wrote: I rather like Lucius Malfoy for this role. He's been seen selling off some of his dark wares. He's concerned about getting caught with them. I realize that he's in Azkaban at the moment, but I feel like Lucius is only concerned with Lucius and could really care less about the Dark Lord. An alliance with Voldemort was the means to an end: power. His usefulness for Voldemort is pretty much used up. He's been outed as a Death Eater to the entire wizarding world. Perhaps its time to switch sides. Mussolini(sp?) anybody? I could see his dear friend Severus convincing him to use what's left of the Malfoy money for a better cause. Lady Macbeth replies: I'm a fan of the "ETG Lucius" myself. ^_^; I tend to write him that way in my fan fiction - and as much as I really, really, hope that it's what's in store for us in the books, I'm not going to hold out TOO much hope. If ALL of Harry's "arch enemies" were gone except Voldemort, there wouldn't be too much suspense in whether Harry'll win or not. ^_^v -Lady Macbeth (The only one who spells it as a given name rather than a surname. ~_^ ) No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop, from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri May 21 17:17:21 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 17:17:21 -0000 Subject: Clues for SHIPS and for the plot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99039 Del wrote about how Hermione should have expected Fluer to kiss Ron and Harry after the first task as Hermione has spent time in France and knows that it is done that way. > Gina responds: > I think the irritation was with Ron BUT because he was obviously > lying about helping so he WOULD get a kiss. If you remember Ron went on for > days retelling the events in different versions. I think Hermione is annoyed > at Ron's need for approval and eagerness for attention - another reason I do > not think she will go for him. > (snip the rest) Ginger butts in: Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but these seem to be two different spots. First Ron got out of the lake and got the kiss. Hermione looked furious. Later he aggrandized the story and it was Padma who paid more attention to him. Hermione was just catty then. So he lied for Padma's attention (and, no doubt, the rest of the school's to some extent), but he told the truth for the kiss. Starting on p. 503, US Paperback, Harry drags Ron and Gabrielle to the surface where the awaken. Harry asks Ron to help him with Gabrielle as she can't swim well. Fleur kisses Harry and then turns to Ron saying "and you too-you 'elped" to which Ron replies, "yeah, a bit". He got his kiss. So he did help a bit, by helping her swim back. After all that, I'm sure she found him to be a bit of an idiot for expanding the story, but he did tell the truth for the kiss! Ginger, gotta stick up for my boy Ron, mindless little goober that he is sometimes. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri May 21 17:24:03 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 17:24:03 -0000 Subject: saying Ginevra Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99040 Filking minds need to know: How do you pronounce Ginevra? Is it Gin- EV-ra or Gin-EEV-ra or GIN-ev-ra? Or something else I haven't mentioned? Heck, it was some hour in the midst of the night when I saw the site and thought it was Ginerva. Ginger, who is glad to know what Ginny is short for, and relieved it wasn't Gingervitis (latin for "living ginger"). <--I made that up. From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Fri May 21 17:25:27 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 12:25:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] saying Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99041 Ginger wrote: Filking minds need to know: How do you pronounce Ginevra? Is it Gin- EV-ra or Gin-EEV-ra or GIN-ev-ra? Or something else I haven't mentioned? Heck, it was some hour in the midst of the night when I saw the site and thought it was Ginerva. Lady Macbeth replies: Good question - I've been mentally using short vowels and emphasizing the middle syllable...but that's probably the American in me. ^_^; And don't feel bad...for whatever reason I keep seeing it as "Ginerva" too. ^_^; -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop, from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Fri May 21 17:59:55 2004 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 17:59:55 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote:<> > We know that Voldemort knew enough of the prophecy that he was aware > that a child born as the 7th month died to parents who had thrice > defied him _could_ vanquish him. Apparently he deduced that both > Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom _could_ fit that description. > > We know that he killed James and Lily Potter and marked Harry Potter > as the one described in the prophecy, losing his body in the process. > Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort decided Harry "the half-blood > like himself" was the more likely danger and that's why he went to > Godric's Hollow.<> Now karenoc1: This is an interesting theory, but I'm having problems with the timing of the events. I believe that we can assume that Voldemort found out about the prophecy *before* Harry and Neville were born. However, he does not attack the Potters until one year and three months *after* Harry and Neville are born. The Potters (and possibly the Longbottoms) went into hiding as soon as Dumbledore learned that the prophecy had been overheard by someone loyal to Voldemort. (Isn't there a strong theory that Snape may have told Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters and why?) And then, Voldemort would have had to take the time to recruit a spy close to the Potters (and possibly a spy close to the Longbottoms) in order to find them and attack them. But would that have taken over a year to accomplish? Voldemort had a lot of followers and spies at this point; he was at the peak of his power. I believe he took time to consider which boy might be a greater threat to him and then decided on Harry and not Neville at all. After he defeated the Potters, he (or one of his followers) could always take out the Longbottoms. Also, Frank Longbottom was an Auror for the Ministry --wouldn't the Ministry have noticed if he were in hiding and not doing his job? Eustace_Scrubb continues: <> > We also know that Neville's parents were tortured to insanity by > Bellatrix LeStrange and company sometime shortly after Godric's Hollow > (how long after, though? days? weeks? I can't tell). Allegedly this > was done because the Death Eaters were frantic to find Voldemort in > the wake of Godric's Hollow.<> Actually, we do know that it was at least *months* after the failed AV curse before the LeStranges and company tortured the Longbottoms. Pettigrew blew up the street and escaped within days of Voldemort's attack on the Potters. Sirius was sent to Azkaban without a trial. But later, the Ministry made great efforts to round up the rest of the DE's and the trials began. First Karkaroff, then Ludo Bagman, and then later still, the Lestranges, Barty Crouch, Jr. (and another Death Eater, I just don't remember which one). Remember in GoF how much older Crouch, Sr. looked with each progressing trial. Yes, it could be stress, but I think it was due to stress over a period of time. Naturally, Frank Longbottom would have been a target for a DE looking for Voldemort. Frank was an Auror, and busy rounding up the likes of the Lestranges. Dumbledore states on p. 603 of the Scholastic edition of Goblet of Fire: "'The Longbottoms were very popular.... The attacks on them came after Voldemort's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe. ..." I don't think anyone would have felt really safe until all of the initial DE trials had ended, and every perceived DE was in custody or had renounced Voldemort. The Longbottom attack had to be some time after Voldemort was defeated, possibly even a year or more. Eustace_Scrubb continues: <> > Why did Bellatrix and the others believe that the Longbottoms would > have any useful information?<> Probably because Frank Longbottom was an Auror, a pretty informed line of work at the Ministry. He was also an Auror with a family, with something to lose. That would make him seem more vulnerable to a group of Death Eaters making their move against the Ministry. But again, I think that the chronology of events must be considered carefully. That way, we have more of a chance of piecing together the mysteries before us. karenoc1 From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri May 21 17:59:33 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 17:59:33 -0000 Subject: Survivors (was: Why we SHIP (WAS: A different and totally serious Harry 'shi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99043 > Kneasy says: > I've never seen this quote before and it warms the cockles of my > evil, dark, FEATHERBOA-bedecked heart. Oh, happy day! Multiple > deaths to come and the likelihood that there will be significant > characters among the fatalities. Oh, splendid! > > Time to make a list: > DD for certain- he's not described as increasingly old and tired > for nothing. It's a foreshadowing. > > SSSusan says: > Yup, I think this one's a given. I'll bet if we polled the group, > we'd be at least 90% on this one. SeriouslyBehind!Annemehr says: All right, then, I'll speak up here. Dumbledore *won't* die, at least not before Voldemort's defeat. Nope, things won't be going his way, Harry won't follow his program, and he may be literally or figuratively powerless, but he'll be alive and struggling at least into the epilogue. The mentor dying during The Hero's Journey is a rule, but JKR's not following the rules... Annemehr who now understands Kneasy's aversion to the butterflies-in-the-meadow ending -- he didn't realise it was a field of poppies! From dk59us at yahoo.com Fri May 21 18:10:11 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 18:10:11 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99044 Eustace_Scrubb: I agree with you that most of this can be explained in multiple ways; way back at the top of the thread I mentioned that it's unclear how long after Godric's Hollow the Longbottoms were attacked, and that could affect the theory a great deal. Mandy: > But perhaps the Longbottoms were in hiding and, foolishly, came out > after they heard that Voldemort had been vanquished by little baby > Harry? Eustace_Scrubb: Yes, this is certainly possible, as is the possibility they refused advice to go into hiding in the first place. If we think we know relatively little about the Potters, we know less about the Longbottoms. Mandy: > Perhaps Voldemort had intended to kill both boys that night, had > gotten the Secret Keeper/s of both families, and just happened to > pick the Potters first? Eustace_Scrubb: Well, we know he picked the Potters first. The part of this I don't buy is Voldemort having both Secret Keepers fall into his lap at the same time. Mandy: > Perhaps Voldemort was accompanied by his DE's, who after witnessing > the disintegration of Voldemort fled. Eustace_Scrubb: I am still a skeptic on the matter of whether there was anyone else around Godric's Hollow on that Halloween, particularly Death Eaters. I have a sense that Voldemort would have wanted to take care of these particular killings on his own. Just my own sense, though... Mandy: > Bellatrix, who to me seems to be Voldemort right hand, may have known > about his intention to kill both boys, Eustace_Scrubb: My take on Bellatrix is a bit different. I believe she thinks of herself as Voldemort's right hand. I'm not sure her boss thinks of anyone as his right hand. (All this talk of right hands is going to get me back to the Prophecy again...must resist Prophecy analysis...) Mandy: > ...went after the Longbottoms > later, because knowing that they were also on Voldemort hit list that > night, the Longbottoms might know something about what actually > happened to her Master. Eustace_Scrubb: Yup, that fits my scenario, too. But if any of this group knew that Voldemort went into the Potters' house but didn't come out, this wouldn't make as much sense, would it? Why would they think the Longbottoms knew anything in that case? Mandy: > Bellatrix, the Lestranges and Crouch could > have also been torturing the Longbottoms not just for information on > Voldemort's whereabouts, but also the whereabouts of baby Neville to > finish the job. Eustace_Scrubb: Or for fun, knowing what we do about Bellatrix...I don't have the books available right now, but doesn't someone describe the group that tortured the Longbottoms as "frantic" or in panic mode over the whereabouts of their master? If so, I doubt that they cared at that point about Neville or Harry, just what happened to Voldemort. And I think the more the Death Eaters knew in advance about the significance of the children _or_ exactly when/where Voldemort disappeared, the less reason they would have had to seek out the Longbottoms and "interrogate" them. Mandy: > I think we are going to have to wait for more canon on this one. Eustace_Scrubb: Agreed! But working from canon and filling in the gaps plausibly is fun, even though most of the resulting theories won't wash in the end! Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri May 21 18:41:41 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 18:41:41 -0000 Subject: saying Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: Ginger: > Filking minds need to know: How do you pronounce Ginevra? Is it Gin- > EV-ra or Gin-EEV-ra or GIN-ev-ra? Or something else I haven't > mentioned? Heck, it was some hour in the midst of the night when I > saw the site and thought it was Ginerva. Lady Macbeth: > > Good question - I've been mentally using short vowels and emphasizing the > middle syllable...but that's probably the American in me. ^_^; And don't > feel bad...for whatever reason I keep seeing it as "Ginerva" too. Geoff: Because you are posibly thinking of Minerva? I find myself favouring Gin-EV-ra. But, on the other hand, I prefer to think of her still as Ginny - rather as I prefer my own name in its shortened form. Although Jo Rowling has said that is her full name, it doesn't really grab me. But I suppose, as a mere male, I shouldn't go around grabbing young ladies called Ginevra.... :-) From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri May 21 18:54:21 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 19:54:21 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge Message-ID: <005a01c43f65$06f9d6a0$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 99046 O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri ----- Original Message ----- From: "manawydan" To: <> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4613 > > O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon > Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion > Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri > Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:00:20 -0500 (CDT) > From: "David Burgess" > Subject: Re: Fudge > > > >Animallover_11 wrote: > >> I think the key to this is that he "Ran out of Town". This makes > >>his exit sound more by choice like he was scared of the results of > >>his lack of actions. There has been some discussion on what side > >>Fudge is on.....this could lead to proving that he was working with > >>LV along. > >> > > > > > >Potioncat: > >In American English a headline that read "Fudge Ran Out of Town" > >would mean that the townspeople ran him out, or more likely here, he > >was forced out of office. > >Potioncat > > Not to quibble (OK, yes, it is, but....) but if he were forced out of > office and the Ministry (and town) wouldn't the headline be "Fudge Run Out > of Town"? Of course, "Fudge Ran Out of Town" could go either way (on a > rail, or uder his own steam). > > For non-American English speakers, the reference we are using is to a > quaint American custom sometimes refered to as 'tarred, feathered, and run > out of town on a rail', where a ne'er-do-well is trussed up, bound hand > and foot, and then hung from a fence rail (as in 'rail and stile') and > carried out of town, with the admonition not to return. I thought I'd > explain it, since I didn't realize the genesis of the saying until just a > couple of years ago. I don't know if other English speaking group have > shared this particular method of inviting someone to move on, but I know > it was really popular in the American South until the middle of the 20th > century. > > Dave > > > > From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri May 21 18:54:58 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 18:54:58 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99047 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karenoc1" wrote: karenoc1: > This is an interesting theory, but I'm having problems with the > timing of the events. I believe that we can assume that Voldemort > found out about the prophecy *before* Harry and Neville were born. > However, he does not attack the Potters until one year and three > months *after* Harry and Neville are born. The Potters (and possibly > the Longbottoms) went into hiding as soon as Dumbledore learned that > the prophecy had been overheard by someone loyal to Voldemort. > (Isn't there a strong theory that Snape may have told Dumbledore that > Voldemort was after the Potters and why?) And then, Voldemort would > have had to take the time to recruit a spy close to the Potters (and > possibly a spy close to the Longbottoms) in order to find them and > attack them. But would that have taken over a year to accomplish? > Voldemort had a lot of followers and spies at this point; he was at > the peak of his power. I believe he took time to consider which boy > might be a greater threat to him and then decided on Harry and not > Neville at all. After he defeated the Potters, he (or one of his > followers) could always take out the Longbottoms. Geoff: May I direct your attention to the following messages, which formed part of a thread entitled "Marking as an Equal" and which covered this question of the time delay.... 82446, 82534, 82575, 82583 and 82607 From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri May 21 18:56:26 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 18:56:26 -0000 Subject: saying Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99048 Ginger: > > Filking minds need to know: How do you pronounce Ginevra? Is > > it Gin-EV-ra or Gin-EEV-ra or GIN-ev-ra? Geoff: > I find myself favouring Gin-EV-ra. But, on the other hand, I > prefer to think of her still as Ginny - rather as I prefer my own > name in its shortened form. > Siriusly Snapey Susan: The times I've heard this name spoken aloud, it's been pronounced GIN-ev-ra. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri May 21 19:00:07 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 20:00:07 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge Message-ID: <005f01c43f65$d7d00ec0$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 99049 Apologies for the last two blank posts... David wrote: > > For non-American English speakers, the reference we are using is to a > > quaint American custom sometimes refered to as 'tarred, feathered, and run > > out of town on a rail', where a ne'er-do-well is trussed up, bound hand > > and foot, and then hung from a fence rail (as in 'rail and stile') and > > carried out of town, with the admonition not to return. I thought I'd > > explain it, since I didn't realize the genesis of the saying until just a > > couple of years ago. I don't know if other English speaking group have > > shared this particular method of inviting someone to move on, but I know > > it was really popular in the American South until the middle of the 20th > > century. Yes, the general title for that sort of activity is "rough music" and it's well known across England (where it went under various names such as "skimmington" and "riding the stang") and Wales (where it was known as "cwlstrin" and "ceffyl pren"). Had all sorts of variants, blowing horns and banging pans outside someone's house, parading them in effigy, or tying them up and parading them on a pole. It was usually used for people who offended social norms of "rightness", like domestic abusers of both sexes. Potterverse relevance? Well possibly. If "rough music" is a prevalent form of justice in the WW, then maybe that's the counterbalance to the highly dubious official legal system. And if it can be done to the Minister, it's obviously not something that's limited to the lower classes... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri May 21 18:53:24 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 19:53:24 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4613 References: <1085086712.14000.42220.m16@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005501c43f64$e5205f40$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 99050 O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:00:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "David Burgess" Subject: Re: Fudge >Animallover_11 wrote: >> I think the key to this is that he "Ran out of Town". This makes >>his exit sound more by choice like he was scared of the results of >>his lack of actions. There has been some discussion on what side >>Fudge is on.....this could lead to proving that he was working with >>LV along. >> > > >Potioncat: >In American English a headline that read "Fudge Ran Out of Town" >would mean that the townspeople ran him out, or more likely here, he >was forced out of office. >Potioncat Not to quibble (OK, yes, it is, but....) but if he were forced out of office and the Ministry (and town) wouldn't the headline be "Fudge Run Out of Town"? Of course, "Fudge Ran Out of Town" could go either way (on a rail, or uder his own steam). For non-American English speakers, the reference we are using is to a quaint American custom sometimes refered to as 'tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail', where a ne'er-do-well is trussed up, bound hand and foot, and then hung from a fence rail (as in 'rail and stile') and carried out of town, with the admonition not to return. I thought I'd explain it, since I didn't realize the genesis of the saying until just a couple of years ago. I don't know if other English speaking group have shared this particular method of inviting someone to move on, but I know it was really popular in the American South until the middle of the 20th century. Dave From s.l.dale at bham.ac.uk Fri May 21 11:09:04 2004 From: s.l.dale at bham.ac.uk (thecybertigeruk) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 11:09:04 -0000 Subject: Why did Ginevra petrify Mrs. Norris anyway? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99051 vmonte > Also, as to Ginny being an > animagus unwittingly, I don't think being an animagus is something > you are born, it takes years of studying and skill to complete the > transformation. Anyway, to knuts worth. > Meri (Not good for a newbie poster I know but)I'm afraid I have to disagree. There are several comments in canon that seem to support my theory that Ginevra is in fact an animagus (either a lion/tiger or some other cat/Kneazle). Unfortunately,I don't have any of the books to hand (darn me and my career getting in the way of a good HP discussion :-) ) but I think there is a least one mention/reference in each book to support my 'Ginny is an animagus' theory. First (and remember this is from memory - so please try not to flame me!), in CoS Ginny's hair was described as a 'mane'. Second, in GoF (I think) she is 'curled like a cat' at the bottom of Hermione's bed. Third in OoP she 'hisses like a cat' at the twins for some reason I can't remember off hand. Forgive me if this is total crap - but since I first noticed a cat reference I've looked quite closely at Ginny, and the things she does. Its not only refences to appearance and actions, but also her history especially of '...taking (the twins) brooms out individually..' seems a rather 'cunning' (and thus a cat- like response to not being allowed to do something). With regard to her not knowing, I think she does know, but its something she doesn't know how to control, perhaps, and thus why she doesn't want anyone else knowing. but I think if Ginny really doesn't know then she'll be finding out pretty soon. Also, Tonks mentioned that she was born a metamorphmagus, and those who aren't born take years of training and practice, so perhaps this is the same with animagi? Also, I notice that Ginny has an affinity to both Crookshanks (cat/Kneazle) and Tonks (meta(is there an abbreviation for this?!)morphmagus. Sorry for the long-winded response, but I think Ginny is THE best character, and SOOOO under-rated in these forums!! CTUK xx From jferer at yahoo.com Fri May 21 19:22:11 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 19:22:11 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99052 Eustace_Scrubb, on the torture of the Longbottoms: "...Or for fun, knowing what we do about Bellatrix...I don't have the books available right now, but doesn't someone describe the group that tortured the Longbottoms as "frantic" or in panic mode over the whereabouts of their master? If so, I doubt that they cared at that point about Neville or Harry, just what happened to Voldemort. And I think the more the Death Eaters knew in advance about the significance of the children or exactly when/where Voldemort disappeared, the less reason they would have had to seek out the Longbottoms and "interrogate" them." And therein lies a problem. We've been told that the Lestranges et. al. tortured the Longbottoms for information on Voldemort's whereabouts. If that's true, then they couldn't have done it the same night; how would they believe that the Longbottoms knew anything about it? At the same time, I just can't imagine that Voldemort wouldn't try to kill both boys the Prophecy could be about. So, the alternatives: 1.The story that the Longbottoms were tortured for information about Voldemort is a cover, designed to mask the existence of the Prophecy. 2.The Longbottoms were deep into the hunt for what was left of Voldemort, and their torture occurred at some later time. There are suggestive hints that Voldemort wasn't totally alone when he attacked Godric's Hollow. How did word get out of what happened? How did the DE's know that Voldemort still existed at all? How was his wand recovered? There's possible explanations for all of them, but the simplest one is that Voldemort had backup that night. (But if there was backup, why didn't they finish the job on Harry? I think it's understandable why not, but it still bothers me a little.) The most persuasive thing to me is that, despite all the evidence, I have a hard time believing Voldemort is dumb enough not to bring support. Anybody who's been through Basic Training in the Army knows that much. I think I ought to go through canon and make a list of Voldemort's blunders. It would a long one, consisting of definite blunders and possible ones. Voldemort reminds me more and more of Adolph Hitler, who made epic, incredibly blatant blunders, sprung from the same root: psychopathic megalomania. Jim Ferer From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Fri May 21 13:00:06 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 06:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge & Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040521130006.94435.qmail@web50102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99053 No poop for Moonmyyst, just some other ideas; From Becki You give valid reasons that Percy is going after power, even though he is a git, he is not evil. He has not shown any signs of being evil and in order to be a DE, you have to be. Even Bellatrix says to Harry in OoP when he attempts an unforgivible curse that you "have to truly mean it" and I don't think he has the evilness. Moonmyyst: I am not saying that Percy is now evil, but power, itself, is such a seducer and for someone from a family that does not have much, it can be a lure. Remember what Ron saw in the mirror? He also was looking for something, power of a sort, that would raise him above his brothers. Maybe Percy is looking for something that will raise him above his family. When you are that age, you feel that you are "10 foot tall and bullet proof" - as the song goes. (I have 2 kids that age!!) He may be seeing the power but thinking that he can get it without having to do anything evil ("I can handle it"). But then again, at the end of the last war, there were several people (including the Malfoys) who "claim" that they were placed under a spell, making them do things. What if there actually is a spell. It is going to be next to impossible in such a closed world as WW to get a plant into the middle of the Order, so what better way? Find an ambitious, power hungry middle son of one of the key members of the order, seduce him with empty promises, place him under a spell, then send him back as a "repentent son" in order to gain information from the inside. I have to admit that this would be something I would try if I were a DE. Moonmyyst (who's shelties are too smart and fast to hold still) From sweetongoo at yahoo.com Fri May 21 13:56:35 2004 From: sweetongoo at yahoo.com (Ashley Hawkins) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 06:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy ending? (was: Sirius' influence on Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040521135635.12675.qmail@web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99054 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie" wrote: > I must say that the end of OotP left me alarmed for Harry's > future behavior. I know he's the hero of the story, and that > we've been promised a happy ending, but I worry about Harry. I doubt that there will be a TRULY happy ending. I believe bittersweet might be a better word to use. Just because 'a happy ending' doesn't seem to be Rowling's type of style. Plus a bittersweet ending is what gives a book class. And if the ending is purely tragic, I'm sure that there will be a lesson to learn from it. SweetOnGoo --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Snarryfan at aol.com Fri May 21 14:14:46 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 14:14:46 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: <000001c43ee3$a13db290$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99055 Sherry replies: > > I wonder, now that the comparison of the two scenes has come into my mind, > if Snape saw any of the marauders being attacked by dementors, what would he > have done. Harry keeps trying to warn Dudley, even while he's looking for > his wand, even after Dudley has just slugged him. That's the thing that > always struck me in this scene. Dudley has tormented Harry all these years, > but he still tries to protect him and does save him. To me, that shows good > stuff in Harry's character. I don't know if I think Snape would have acted > the same in similar circumstances. And I'm not one who thinks Snape is a > traitor or anything. I find his character to be very complex and > interesting. I just think that Harry acted with compassion, and I don't > know that Snape would have. I guess it all goes back to Harry's desire to > save people. Yes he helped him. One point for the Gryffindor. What I like, it's what he did after: He dragged Diddy home,and when he's ill and his parents hyperworried, and Harry prefer go upstairs, stay 'invisible'. It's like 'ok, I've done the minimum, now *I*'m in danger, better to go far away before the explosion'. For once, he thought to him and only him, his security before Dudley's, like a...Slytherin. Oh! And I find another little likeness. When Harry meets Draco, he dislike him because he reminds him Dudley in the first time. Then, the actions of Draco prove hm right. Snape dislikes Harry ( maybe hates later) because he reminds him James, then, Harry's action proves him right (in his mind anyway, when he had the broom, his place in the Quidditch team, blatant disrespect of the rules, favoritism...). Christelle. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri May 21 19:24:32 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 19:24:32 -0000 Subject: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > The ambiguity lends itself to the intellectual exercise. But there's > something else in it for me. HP is a bildungsroman about a boy > who has neither family, friends nor teachers who care about him > until he comes to Hogwarts. Naturally he tends to idealize them. > The fairy tale atmosphere of the work invites the reader to > escape into this fantasy along with Harry -- who wouldn't want a > friend like Ron, a father figure like Dumbledore, a brother as > devoted as Sirius, a teacher as brilliant as Lupin? But Harry is > being brought, slowly and inexorably, down to earth. What has > he still got to learn? > Hate to be a wet blanket, but I wouldn't. Bildungsroman I can take or leave alone; what matters are the glorious puzzles - the what when who dunnit. All the characters are JKR's - not mine. And so is the story. Yes, it's good, but there are other books I pick up and re-read in preference to HP. I see only one fully developed character in the series, and that's Snape. I sometimes worry that this perception of mine is solely because he is a mystery - and when that is resolved (in JKR's terms) he may be revealed as something mundane. That would be a personal tragedy. The other persona I do not engage with except at the most superficial level. Maybe it's because I'm a fair bit older than the average age for members of the site, but most of the cast stereotypes have turned up at some time or other in real life and have not been particularly profound or engaging. The DD type can be particularly irritating, spouting Delphic profundities when all you want is a straight answer. No, I don't confuse HP with reality or it's characters with real world complexities, it's harmless fun, to be taken with a large pinch of salt. But the puzzles! Ahh! Now you're talking! If A does this to C without D knowing, what will be E's likely reaction when B lets the cat out of the bag and why? So in the meantime (and as a hedge against disappointment) I devise convoluted explanations based on incomplete evidence. That's what attracted me to HP in the first place - it's a play- ground with very elastic boundaries, solely because the tale is not yet told. Haven't a clue what I'll do when it is. Kneasy From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Fri May 21 14:54:56 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava Gordon) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 14:54:56 -0000 Subject: Gender differences and magic - ties to Bellatrix Lestrange & Lily Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99057 On another forum, someone suggested that, all other things being equal, male wizards have greater endurance than female & therefore are likely to be better duelers. I've had a few days to mull this over, & am convinced this is wrong Wrong WRONG. Here's why. (1) Physiologic fallacy: A review of recent physiologic studies shows strong evidence that small-muscle (particularly the thumb adductor) endurance over time is greater in women than men. (http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/91/1/100) Significant factor in dueling, no? (2) On a magical level: The power in the ancient magic that Lily Potter imparted to Harry is powerful enough to protect him ,even long after her death, from the extreme destructive power of Voldemort. There is no question in my mind that the 'ancient' magic which V. fails to comprehend and vastly underestimates, is 'female' magic, while V's is distinctly destructive and 'male'. What this would suggest is that JKR is leading up to the rather subversive conclusion that it is ancient, visceral, exclusively female witch- magic that will finally be essential to defeat Voldemort. Another thought - we've got Bella, who has the external trappings of a very attractive female, yet seems highly uncomfortable with her femaleness (I use the term 'femaleness' rather than 'femininity' deliberately). The fact that she uses a repulsive baby-talk to taunt children rather than in its usual maternal fashion points to such an interpretation. Meanwhile, she is the ultimate disciple of V. She worships him. She wants to e like him. At 1st I thought there was a sort of sexual thing going on here, but I think it all comes down to Power. If Bella is V.'s mistress, his disciple, his most loyal follower, it is because she wants to live through him, she wants a piece of his power. In a word, she wants to be a man. Heck, she wants to be The Man. And you know that in the end, she will fall, defeated, I am certain, by the female magic she so utterly rejects. In other words, Girlz Rule, Boyz Drool. From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Fri May 21 16:14:20 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava Gordon) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 16:14:20 -0000 Subject: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99058 Pippin: > > In real life your beloved friends, family and teachers can let > you > > down. They can, though they honestly care about you and vice > > versa, knowingly and deliberately act against your interests. And > > ironically enough, because they do value the relationship, they > > may do it behind your back. * * * Ava: Which is, of course, why Snape is so essential to Harry's development. In his less-than-ideal way, he serves as an anchor to reality. > Jen: I thought that was the whole point of OOTP, that Harry saw all > the previous fairy-tale elements of the WW in a new light: His once > beloved Sirius took a nose-dive long before he fell through the > veil; James & Sirius were depicted as bullies; Dumbledore shows > signs of weakness and admits he made mistakes; Molly's once welcome > ministrations were seen as mollycoddling; the MOM & Fudge were found > to be corrupt and guilty of censorship at the highest levels. Why > does JKR have to go further to make the point that Harry no longer > idealizes the WW? Ava: Because he still has much further to go in accepting the flaws he's discovered. James and Sirius were bullies? Sirius blows it off & even Lupin makes light of it. That confuses Harry a bit, to his credit he finds that raises troubling questions - but he doesn't make the next step, to try to find out the undoubtedly even-more- troubling answers. As Snape had earlier pointed out in PoA, Harry didn't want to know the truth, & Harry had to admit (to himself) that Snape was right. I see no sign that he's quite ready to face the unpleasant truths yet, either, in OotP. He may have seen Snape's POV in the Pensieve, but clearly, he hasn't yet internalized it. > She said in her recent chat that Harry will begin to master his > emotions and make a contribution, since the war is on. To me, that > means Harry's downhill slide will curve back up in the final two > books. Ava: I would hope so. IMHO, JKR has captured 15-year-old stubborness, obnoxious, self-righteous & ready to blame the Usual Suspects for everything and anything he (or those he admires) might otherwise share blame for. In a word: S-n-a-p-e. > Jen: Harry already understands how many ways there are for people to > let him down, and he still finds hope when he's by the lake, when he > talks to Luna, and in the last sentence of OOTP: > > "He somehow could not find words to tell them what it meant to him, > to see them all ranged there, on his side. Instead, he smiled, > raised a hand in farewell, turned around, and led the way out of the > station toward the sunlit street, with Unlce Vernon, Aunt Petunia, > and Dudley hurrying along in his wake." > > I love that scene, Harry walking toward the sunlight, the imperfect > people he loves most in the world supporting him, and the > Durlsey's 'following in his wake'. I'd say he's arrived. Ava: Arrived where? He's taken a step in the right direction, no doubt. But until he can accept Sirius' own responsibility for his death, and even his OWN culpability, and can recognize that it wasn't really UsualSuspect!Snape's fault, he's still in danger of making serious mistakes - in his relationship with the world, in his personal development, and in the battle against Voldemort. From dk59us at yahoo.com Fri May 21 20:05:17 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 20:05:17 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99059 karenoc1: > This is an interesting theory, but I'm having problems with the > timing of the events. Eustace_Scrubb: Yes, as usual, we don't know enough of the "when." karenoc1: > The Potters (and possibly > the Longbottoms) went into hiding as soon > as Dumbledore learned that the prophecy had been overheard by someone > loyal to Voldemort. But didn't he know or suspect this during Trelawney's trance at the Hog's Head? He certainly knew that part of the prophecy had been overheard by someone who was not trustworthy. But he only told the Potters to go into hiding when he heard (as you suggest, maybe from Snape) that Voldemort was actually going to go after them...and Dumbledore's informant may not have had the whole story (e.g., a spy could tell Dumbledore that Voldemort is going to attack the Potters. That spy would not have to know why, for Dumbledore already believes he knows why Voldemort would do that). karenoc1: > Frank Longbottom was an Auror for the Ministry --wouldn't the > Ministry have noticed if he were in hiding and not doing his job? Eustace_Scrubb: Good point...perhaps Frank couldn't go into hiding at all. > > Eustace_Scrubb continues: <> > > We also know that Neville's parents were tortured to insanity by > > Bellatrix LeStrange and company sometime shortly after Godric's > Hollow > > (how long after, though? days? weeks? I can't tell). Allegedly this > > was done because the Death Eaters were frantic to find Voldemort in > > the wake of Godric's Hollow.<> > > Actually, we do know that it was at least *months* after the failed > AV curse before the LeStranges and company tortured the Longbottoms. karenoc1: > Pettigrew blew up the street and escaped within days of Voldemort's > attack on the Potters. > But later, the Ministry made great efforts to round up the rest of > the DE's and the trials began. First Karkaroff, then Ludo Bagman, > and then later still, the Lestranges, Barty Crouch, Jr. (and another > Death Eater, I just don't remember which one). Remember in GoF how > much older Crouch, Sr. looked with each progressing trial. Yes, it > could be stress, but I think it was due to stress over a period of > time. Eustace_Scrubb: I agree that the trial of the LeStranges and Crouch Junior occurred much later. But they couldn't be tried until they were arrested and we don't know how long that took. As some of the more dangerous, desperate and skilled DEs, they could have stayed at large for quite a while. But I don't think that necessarily means the attack for which they were arrested also took place long after Godric's Hollow. (see below) karenoc1: > Dumbledore states on p. 603 of the Scholastic edition of Goblet of > > Fire: > > "'The Longbottoms were very popular.... The attacks on them came > after Voldemort's fall from power, just when everyone thought they > were safe. ..." > > I don't think anyone would have felt really safe until all of the > initial DE trials had ended, and every perceived DE was in custody or > had renounced Voldemort. The Longbottom attack had to be some time > after Voldemort was defeated, possibly even a year or more. Eustace_Scrubb: Well, although McGonagall disapproved, it appears that the majority of the WW was celebrating by the time Harry was deposited on the Dursleys' front steps. Even Dumbledore says as he leaves Privet Drive, "We may as well go and join the celebrations." I think the Longbottom attack occurred quite close to the events of Godric's Hollow. That attack may well have brought those who had "thought they were safe" on November 1 back to their senses, at which point it became clear that even with Voldemort gone, there was plenty of work for the Aurors to do. karenoc1: > But again, I think that the chronology of events must be considered > carefully. That way, we have more of a chance of piecing together > the mysteries before us. Eustace_Scrubb: Agreed! From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 21 20:09:41 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 20:09:41 -0000 Subject: Why did Ginevra petrify Mrs. Norris anyway? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99060 CTUK wrote: > With regard to her not knowing, I think she does know, but its > something she doesn't know how to control, perhaps, and thus why she > doesn't want anyone else knowing. but I think if Ginny really > doesn't know then she'll be finding out pretty soon. Also, Tonks > mentioned that she was born a metamorphmagus, and those who aren't > born take years of training and practice, so perhaps this is the > same with animagi? Potioncat: If you look at Sirius, Peter and James you'll see lots of images that fit their animagi and to a certain extent, that is true of Remus and wolf. And yes, Ginny is certainly described as cat-like in many ways. So I have no doubt she'll become an animagi, but I doubt she is one now. Does anyone see cat qualities in McGonagall? Potioncat From LadySawall at aol.com Fri May 21 20:12:53 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 16:12:53 EDT Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99061 In a message dated 05/21/2004 7:12:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sherry G. writes: Dudley has tormented Harry all these years, but he still tries to protect him and does save him. To me, that shows good stuff in Harry's character. I don't know if I think Snape would have acted the same in similar circumstances. And I'm not one who thinks Snape is a traitor or anything. I find his character to be very complex and interesting. I just think that Harry acted with compassion, and I don't know that Snape would have. I guess it all goes back to Harry's desire to save people. > toptopera replies: > But we know exactly what Snape'd do when he'd see a marauder facing a dementor. In the end of PoA, he refused to believe Sirius's story and would gladly receive an Order of Merlin for having him capture and kissed.< And Pippin rebuts: > That's what he says. But Snape's actions are often at odds with his words. When he comes to and sees the Dementors returning to their stations at the gates, Sirius is utterly in his power. He does not turn Sirius over to the Dementors. Instead he puts Sirius on a stretcher, treating him with far more dignity that Sirius accorded to him, and turns him over to Dumbledore. My thoughts: First off, I think Snape's actions in that situation would depend entirely on which Marauder we're talking about, and at what point in his life it happened. If he is likely to have compassion for any Marauder, I would say it's Lupin (which is not to say that I think he likes him, or that he wasn't very willing to get him kicked out of Hogwart's. He's probably still scared to death of him. But it occurs to me that he is probably also very well aware that he was not the only one who could have suffered terribly because of the Prank. Part of his current dislike of Remus may stem from the fact that the latter refused to turn his back on Sirius, leaving him, Snape, to carry the grudge for them both.) Following the Prank, there was the life-debt to consider, so he might well help James, especially if he could do it without too great a risk to his own neck. As far as the stretcher goes, we do have to keep in mind that Sirius isn't working for DD and isn't trying for an Order of Merlin. He can be as nasty to Snape as he wants as long as he doesn't do him any permanent damage, and it won't cost him anything, other than brownie points with DD. OTOH, it was in Snape's best interest to appear magnanimous. So it's hard to judge from that incident whether he would have done the same under other circumstances. I do think that Sirius occupies a special place on Snape's hate-list, above and beyond any other Marauder, perhaps even James. Look at Sirius through his eyes: not only did the guy torment him throughout their school days and contribute to James doing the same; not only did he put Snape in a position where he could have been maimed, lycanthropized, or killed; but he betrayed the trust and threatened the well-being of one of his own best friends, just because he thought it would be funny. It's no wonder Snape isn't willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, or thinks anyone who does is out of their mind. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri May 21 20:39:12 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 20:39:12 -0000 Subject: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99062 > Ava: Which is, of course, why Snape is so essential to Harry's > development. In his less-than-ideal way, he serves as an anchor > to reality. Jen: Yes, I totally agree Snape has taught Harry an enormous amount, even if his methods are questionable. Basically, I accept JKR's answer from the B&N chat in 2000: Q: Why does Professor Dumbledore allow Professor Snape to be so nasty to the students (especially to Harry, Hermione, and Neville)? A:Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life; horrible teachers like Snape are one of them! Jen: > > I thought that was the whole point of OOTP, that Harry saw > all > > the previous fairy-tale elements of the WW in a new light > > Why does JKR have to go further to make the point that Harry no > >longer idealizes the WW? Ava: > Because he still has much further to go in accepting the flaws > he's discovered. James and Sirius were bullies? Sirius blows it > off & even Lupin makes light of it. That confuses Harry a bit, to > his credit he finds that raises troubling questions - but he doesn't > make the next step, to try to find out the undoubtedly even-more- > troubling answers. As Snape had earlier pointed out in PoA, Harry > didn't want to know the truth, & Harry had to admit (to himself) > that Snape was right. I see no sign that he's quite ready to face > the unpleasant truths yet, either, in OotP. He may have seen > Snape's POV in the Pensieve, but clearly, he hasn't yet internalized it. Jen: I don't need for Harry to have resolution with Snape, or for him to fully accept Snape's POV to feel satisfied with the series and Harry's development. As you said, Harry admitted to himself Snape was right when he saw with his own eyes that James and Sirius had some serious flaws--that may be the extent of Harry's resolution. I fully expect some of Snape's truths will be given the hatchet job before the series ends, too. No one seems immune to having their weaknesses exposed. > Ava: Arrived where? He's taken a step in the right direction, no > doubt. But until he can accept Sirius' own responsibility for his > death, and even his OWN culpability, and can recognize that it > wasn't really UsualSuspect!Snape's fault, he's still in danger of > making serious mistakes - in his relationship with the world, in his > personal development, and in the battle against Voldemort. Jen: This does seem to be Harry's Achilles heel, but to me his finger-pointing at Snape seemed like a lot of bluster to cover the very deep sadness and culpability he already *did* feel. Harry tends to feel guilty pretty often, like in the scene where he removed himself from everyone at Grimmauld Place, certain he was the weapon and would harm anyone who came near him. After Sirius' death, in Dumbledore's office, Harry thinks, "It was his fault Sirius had died; it was his fault. If he Harry had not been stupid enough to fall for Voldemort's trick...." (US, chap. 37, p. 820-821) Personally, I think he's being really hard on himself when practically all the adults he counted on were making mistakes right & left during OOTP. Like you said, these things may be the first step for Harry and there's more resolution to come, or it could be Harry moves on, never totally resolving the conflict with Snape or even his feelings about his father. I tend to think the latter would be a more important resolution, finding a way to make peace with his dad's memory. From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Fri May 21 04:51:34 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 04:51:34 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99063 "Eustace_Scrubb"wrote: > The only problem is that he can't kill them at the same time; one has > to be first (yes, I know time turners could solve that problem, but > let's assume that time turners are not going to be in rampant use in > the series). So Voldemort plans to kill the Potters first, then the > Longbottoms and he told at least some of the Death Eaters that he > would be doing this. But he probably did not confide in even his most > trusted followers _why_ he wanted to kill these two families; why give > them the idea that he might be vulnerable? There was ample reason to > set an example by these murders, as both sets of parents had been > thorns in his side. Mike here, This makes perfect sense. If Voldemort knew of two children, either one could possibly fulfill the prophecy, he would want to kill them both. One could speculate as to why he went after Potter first. It could be just as simple that the Potters were closer. This also explains the dramatic change in Neville throughout book five. He was rather clumsy and forgetful going in, but became good enough to take part in the battle of the MOM. It also allowed him to confront Bellatrix Lestrange. We got a hint of Neville in book four when Harry saw the trial in the pensieve. Now in book five, we see the full extent of what Neville has gone through and that he has a key role in the whole series. Mike Feemster From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Fri May 21 13:54:35 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 06:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040521135435.70953.qmail@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99064 Eustace_Scrubb wrote: Dumbledore at least seems to assume that Voldemort knew about both children. Now I know that Voldemort regularly does things that seem illogical, but I would think Voldemort would actually want to eliminate both children, not try to _guess_ which one he should kill. I have often wondered if it were Neville and not Harry that is supposed to face LV in the end or if it is somehow Neville helping Harry, though I could never exactly place that in context with the prophecy. moonmyyst (who has been driving co-workers crazy with HP conspiracy theories) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 21 21:11:47 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 21:11:47 -0000 Subject: Curious Duality of Snape: (was: Harry begins to act ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99065 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Pippin wrote: > > ... But Snape's actions are often at odds with his words. ... He > > (Snape) does not turn Sirius over to the Dementors. Instead he > > puts Sirius on a stretcher, treating him with far more dignity > > that Sirius accorded to him, and turns him over to Dumbledore. > > Potioncat agrees: > Yes, and this is before DD has revealed Black as a good guy. Snape > has every reason to think Black is a murderer. Or at best, only a > slight reason to doubt it. > > Potioncat bboy_mn: Well, well, well... something I hadn't considered before. Why indeed did Snape not simply call back the Dementors? I'm pretty sure he said that when he awoke, he saw the Dementors retreating to their guard posts. If he could see them and he thought Sirius truly needed to be 'kissed', Snape could have just yelled for the Dementors to come back. Perhaps with so many unconscious people lying around and only the vaguest idea of why they were unconscious, he thought it best to get everyone to the hospital first. Still even with that, he could have enchanted stretchers for the children, bound Sirius, called the Dementors and let them take care of Sirius while he took the children to the castle. If he called the Dementors, they would have surely gone straight for Sirius. Of course, the ulitmate reason is that JKR needed for Sirius NOT to die or be permanently incapacitated at that point. But that doesn't change the curiousity regarding Snape's motivations at that point in time. Snape's comments in the Shieking Shack could have been a vindictive taunt against Sirius and Remus. He could have simply been enjoying the moment when he had absolute power over this once tormentors, but with no real intention of calling the Dementors for an immediate 'kiss'. This is very curious; one new underlying possibility that I never considered before. In addition, this last scenerio I proposed would not be out of character for Snape. Snape is not nice, but, we are to assume, he is good. Gleefully tormenting his former tormentors would fit nicely with Snape's 'not nice' part, and the no real intent to do harm would fit nicely with the part of him that Dumbledore trusts. Interesting.... very interesting. bboy_mn From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri May 21 21:28:48 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 21:28:48 -0000 Subject: Gender differences and magic - ties to Bellatrix Lestrange & Lily Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99066 Ava Gordon wrote: > On another forum, someone suggested that, all other things being > equal, male wizards have greater endurance than female & therefore > are likely to be better duelers. I've had a few days to mull this > over, & am convinced this is wrong Wrong WRONG. Here's why. > Mandy here: Who, and where, on earth did some idiot actually believe the idea that men have better endurance than women? It is absolutely not true. In fact it opposite is true, women have far more endurance and stamina both physically and mentally than men do. A fact that has been proven by science! Men are obviously physically bigger and stronger, and win at bursts of quick strength and power. Woman, on the other hand have more stamina and endurance and are winners when it comes to endurance over long periods of time. How does physical strength and endurance effect magic? Magical ability is not divided along gender lines. The individual strength and endurance of any witch or wizard has nothing to do with their magical ability. Or it does, only in the sense that a healthy body supports a healthy mind. The healthier a witch or wizard is, the better they will be all around. Magical strength is naturally imparted to the individual either through genes or just potluck. Example; Hermione, who comes from muggle parents is hugely magically gifted as opposed to Neville, a pureblood, who is magically backward. It has nothing to do with size, strength or stamina. The art of dueling, magical or not, does require very important skills, that not everyone is going to excel at. The participants need to be: aggressive, very fast, quick thinking, instinctually intuitive about yourself and your opponent, and be a strong, quick strategic thinker. You need to be able to read your opponent very quickly, and be able to judge what they are about to do, and react to it before they are able to execute their move. The only element in dueling I would say that a woman has a disadvantage in, is the aggression. Naturally, women don't have the same levels of aggression that men do, and often lose the fight before it is even fought. But I would also say that men are equally lacking in the intuition that is also required to win a dual, so the field is leveled. If you know anything about dueling throughout history, you'll know that duals would only ever last for a `brief' period of time. They were quick, ferocious and not always deadly, sometimes only going to first blood. Look at today's Fencing and Epee Fighting as the closes thing we have to dueling. It's so bloody fast you can't see what is happening most of the time. So endurance, while certainly an advantage, is rarely a factor. Talent, speed, and aggression are what you need to win. Magic levels the playing field. It is why throughout history men have always been terrified of witches. They are suddenly without the ability to control women, and heaven forbid that would ever happen! Which forum came up with the conclusion above? I'd like to visit and knock some sense and intelligence in to those idiots. Cheers Mandy, who is amazed that boys can sometimes be so insecure about themselves they can't even except a women winning in fantasy, let alone in real life. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 22 00:53:39 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 00:53:39 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99067 Jo Ann wrote: > > As far as the stretcher goes, we do have to keep in mind that Sirius isn't > working for DD and isn't trying for an Order of Merlin. He can be as nasty to > Snape as he wants as long as he doesn't do him any permanent damage, and it > won't cost him anything, other than brownie points with DD. OTOH, it was in > Snape's best interest to appear magnanimous. So it's hard to judge from that > incident whether he would have done the same under other circumstances. Potioncat; Sorry, I don't quite get your point. Sirius didn't have to be nice to Snape, so he wasn't. Snape didn't have to be nice to Sirius, but he was. Now, Snape very likely doesn't know anything about his trip from the Shack to the spot on the ground where he woke. But he puts the appropriate people on stretchers and takes them to the hospital wing. I don't see that he had anything to lose by letting Sirius be taken or kissed. I also don't think Snape is working toward any awards at this point. That is, during the rescue part of the evening. I also think he originally went after the trio because he thought they would be in danger from Lupin. Jo Ann: > I do think that Sirius occupies a special place on Snape's hate- list, above > and beyond any other Marauder, perhaps even James. Look at Sirius through his > eyes: not only did the guy torment him throughout their school days and > contribute to James doing the same; not only did he put Snape in a position where he > could have been maimed, lycanthropized, or killed; but he betrayed the trust > and threatened the well-being of one of his own best friends, just because he > thought it would be funny. It's no wonder Snape isn't willing to give him the > benefit of the doubt, or thinks anyone who does is out of their mind. > Potioncat: I agree. Although we don't know about adult James and adult Severus, but we do know Severus and Remus don't seem to hold such animosity as between Snape and Black. And I sort of wonder if young Sirius didn't fuel the fire between James and Severus. Potioncat From lb140900 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 01:03:35 2004 From: lb140900 at yahoo.com (Louis Badalament) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 01:03:35 -0000 Subject: Neville's Grandmother In Danger? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99068 Is Neville's Grandmother due for trouble? Let's look in Talons and Tea Leaves in Prisoner of Azkaban to see what our resident prophesizer has to say: --- "You, boy," she said suddenly to Neville, who almost toppled off his pouf. "Is your grandmother well?" "I think so," said Neville tremulously. "I wouldn't be so sure if I were you, dear," said Professor Trelawney, the firelight glinting on her long emerald earrings. --- Now, granted, Trelawney's not the most reliable source to go to, the plotline's made that very plain. But there's something about this chapter in particular which gives one pause, which hints at things to come, which we've already seen. Let's move a bit further in the chapter, when Harry's staring into his teacup trying to divine Ron's future: ---- "Right, you've got a crooked sort of cross... " He consulted Unfogging the Future. "That means you're going to have 'trials and suffering' - - sorry about that -- but there's a thing that could be the sun... hang on... that means 'great happiness'... so you're going to suffer but be very happy...." ---- Though at the time, Ron tells Harry he needs his 'Inner Eye checked,' we'll all remember that one point in Book Five with the Department of Mysteries battle where Ron has been hit with that weird spell which made him laugh moronically while he was wounded. He suffered, but was very happy. Let's continue, when Ron looks into Harry's cup: --- "My turn..." Ron peered into Harry's teacup, his forehead wrinkled with effort. "There's a blob a bit like a bowler hat," he said. "Maybe you're going to work for the Ministry of Magic... He turned the teacup the other way up. "But this way it looks more like an acorn.... What's that?" He scanned his copy of Unfogging the Future. "'A windfall, unexpected gold.' --- A windfall, unexpected gold. Doesn't Harry wind up with a thousand galleons at the end of Goblet of Fire? And working for the Ministry... Harry's already shown an interest in becoming an Auror, who are, by nature, Ministry employees. Is this chapter hinting at more than it lets on? And can we infer, therefore, that something terrible might befall Neville's grandmother in one of the upcoming books, as Trelawney has warned? Louis Badalament From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat May 22 01:04:28 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 01:04:28 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I also don't think Snape is working toward any awards at this > point. That is, during the rescue part of the evening. I also think > he originally went after the trio because he thought they would be > in danger from Lupin. > I don't think Snape would have been able to see the trio on the map. The Marauder's Map doesn't show the Shreiking Shack, after all. He may have thought perhaps that Lupin would be a danger to someone, but I think that by this time he suspected that Lupin and Sirius were in cahoots as it were, judging by the fact that he didn't seem at all surprised that Sirius was there in the shack. I think that concern for HRH's lives was the last thing on his mind that night. He was much more interested in settling old scores with Black and Lupin. Meri From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 22 01:48:41 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 01:48:41 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99070 Potioncat snipping part of my post: I also think he originally went after the trio because he thought they would be in danger from Lupin. > > Meri wrote: > I don't think Snape would have been able to see the trio on the map. > The Marauder's Map doesn't show the Shreiking Shack, after all. He > may have thought perhaps that Lupin would be a danger to someone, > but I think that by this time he suspected that Lupin and Sirius > were in cahoots as it were, judging by the fact that he didn't seem > at all surprised that Sirius was there in the shack. I think that > concern for HRH's lives was the last thing on his mind that night. > He was much more interested in settling old scores with Black and > Lupin. Potioncat again: Let's see who can get to canon first. It may be awhile before I can. I don't remember what Snape saw on the map. But, if he didn't see the trio, he didn't see Lupin or Black either. As far as old scores go. I have to admit, Snape is the type for revenge. But think of this: He advised DD not to hire Lupin in the first place, because he felt Lupin might be helping Black, particularly when Black did get into Hogwarts. Now, in the Shreiking Shack what does he find, but the good old buddies, Lupin and Black....just as he suspected. Every bad thought he ever had about Black appears to be well founded and true....at least to him. So he has a werewolf about to transform, a murderer, an injured student and two students who think Black and Lupin are nice guys.... Come to think of it, it's no wonder he goes to pieces later in the evening!!!! Potioncat From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 22 02:36:53 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 02:36:53 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat snipping part of my post: > I also think he originally went after the trio because he thought > they would be in danger from Lupin. > > > > > > Meri wrote: > > I don't think Snape would have been able to see the trio on the map. The Marauder's Map doesn't show the Shreiking Shack, after all. He may have thought perhaps that Lupin would be a danger to someone, but I think that by this time he suspected that Lupin and Sirius were in cahoots as it were, judging by the fact that he didn't seem at all surprised that Sirius was there in the shack. I think that concern for HRH's lives was the last thing on his mind that night. He was much more interested in settling old scores with Black and Lupin. > > > Potioncat again: > Let's see who can get to canon first. It may be awhile before I > can. I don't remember what Snape saw on the map. But, if he > didn't see the trio, he didn't see Lupin or Black either. Pippin: Snape says he saw Lupin running out the tunnel to the Shack. We don't know whether TT!Harry and Hermione were visible on the map as they waited by the edge of the forest, but since the map shows only the tunnel, Snape couldn't have seen anyone in the shack itself. Snape went in pursuit, leaving the castle barely two minutes after Hagrid entered it. If he had a chance to talk to Hagrid in the Hall, then Snape might have learned that Buckbeak had escaped. Snape found Harry's invisibility cloak at the base of the willow. He put it on and went after Lupin. That makes sense since he didn't know that Sirius was on the grounds and did know that Lupin was going to transform soon. At that point he might have feared that Harry, who doesn't know what Lupin is, had been lured into the willow just as Snape had been long before. He may have even fancied that he would rescue Harry from the werewolf and pay back the debt. He says he never dreamed he'd find Lupin and Sirius together in the Shack. Pippin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat May 22 02:50:19 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 02:50:19 -0000 Subject: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99072 Pippin: also awaiting ESE!Harry Neri: Naahh, I was kidding. I'm not very interested in ESE theories, because it is usually obvious they'll just won't happen. I got interested for about a day in ESE!Harry only because it seemed more difficult to generate. You'd have to get over the point-of-view problem: as readers we get to look into Harry's mind all the time, so we know he is not evil. But then I realized this is actually easy. You see, Harry got not only some of LV's powers in that fateful night in GH, he also got some of LV's memories. So Harry actually always knew he is a wizard. All those years in the Dursleys' cupboard (the years from age 1 to 10 that JKR conveniently doesn't describe) he was thinking about how he's going to turn the Dursleys into toads, get even with DD and all the other wizards for dumping him with the worst muggles ever, and take over the WW like Tom always wanted and failed. But when Harry turns 10 years old, and already waiting impatiently for the letter from Hogwarts that he knows should arrive by the end of the year, he suddenly realizes he has a BIG problem: From Tom's memories he knows that DD always suspected Tom, even when all the others in Hogwarts thought Tom was a fine kid and a model student. Harry realizes that DD is a skillful legilimen, and is going to see through him, Harry, exactly as he saw through Tom, and find out that Harry is actually Ever So Evil. So Harry uses the powers he got from LV to construct a fake personality. Very similar to Tom's diary, actually, only this personality is not written in a diary but stays inside Harry's head. This fake!Harry is a good, brave and noble kid, someone that DD will just adore, never bothering to look below the surface. And naturally, the fake!Harry is constructed without LV's memories of the WW, so its surprised response to everything "new" always look so genuine. Most of the time it is fake!Harry that interacts with the people around him according to his programming, but the true Harry, ESE!Harry, is always lurking just below the surface and watching, sometime making the necessary adjustments. Most of the time this works quite well, but there were some perilous moments, for example when the Sorting Hat looked inside his head and found that his house should be (naturally) Slytherin. Only repeating the command "Not Slytherin!" three times to the fake personality managed to convince the damn hat. Phew, that was close. But even worse were the Occlumency lessons with Snape. Snape was starting to get into Harry's early memories, from the years before the fake!Harry existed. Harry reprogrammed his fake personality to hate the lessons and avoid them as much as possible, but this still didn't help. Then he had an inspiration: he made the fake personality look into Snape's worst memory in the Pensieve and keep looking until Snape returned. Heh! No more Occlumency lessons after that... But in Hogwarts Harry had learned that LV is still around (he had no way of knowing this before), and trying to kill him. So he had to form a new plan: he's going to play DD and LV against each other, both wasting their powers and supporters in the war between them. According to his plan, one of these two should kill the other, but only after a lengthy war and a tough fight, so that the one left standing will be very weak and Harry will be able to finish him off easily. Until OotP Harry wasn't sure if it's DD or LV who should die first. But now he has finally managed to make DD reveal to him the second part of the prophecy (the part that he didn't already know about from LV's memories). Now the plan is obvious: he should let LV get rid of DD for him, then kill LV according to the prophecy. After that Harry will be the hero of the WW. His way to power will be open, and he will be able to terminate that annoying fake personality, which starts to really getting on his nerves with its noble conduct. OK, this is the point were I start to get bored with this theory. Clearly it still requires a lot of work: going over the books looking for pieces of canon that happen to fit nicely with it (and writing excited posts about them to HPFG), and explaining away those parts of canon that don't fit. Tedious and dull, IMO. Anyone who is interested is invited to it. I'll be probably thinking on something REALLY interesting, like what's going on with those bubblegum wrappers that Neville gets from his mother, or who kissed Florence behind the greenhouses, or what is the power behind the locked door, or why does DD trusts Snape. Neri From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sat May 22 03:20:54 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 03:20:54 -0000 Subject: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99073 Jen: I keep thinking Grindelwald will come into play again and this > would be an interesting twist. JKR promised us in the chat we would > find out more about Riddle's birth--I hope that information will > answer the question of how Tom discovered his origins. Some say it > was through a letter written by his Mom, but...Does he have a scar > somewhere, too? Was another Prophecy made about "The Heir of > Slytherin approaches...." Hehe. > > Jen, who just saw "The Alamo" movie and wonders if Julie lives in > Texas since she descended from Jim Bowie? I like your ideas about becoming the heir once he discovered the chamber. Almost like finding a will leaving all possessions to "the one who finds this will." Tom Riddle was a brilliant student (according to Dumbdledore). He certainly could have put the clues together. Julie - who is from Arkansas, close enough to Texas. When I lived in Europe, I grew tired of explaining where AR was so I said I lived "Five hours from Dallas." Does that count? LOL From dk59us at yahoo.com Sat May 22 03:53:53 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 03:53:53 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: <20040521135435.70953.qmail@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99074 Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > > Dumbledore at least seems to assume that Voldemort knew about both > children. Now I know that Voldemort regularly does things that seem > illogical, but I would think Voldemort would actually want to > eliminate both children,not try to _guess_ which one he should kill. Then moonmyst added: > I have often wondered if it were Neville and not Harry that is supposed to face LV in the end or if it is somehow Neville helping Harry, though I could never exactly place that in context with the prophecy. Now Eustace_Scrubb: Well, even if the theory I proposed is completely true (and folks have pointed out some probable weaknesses in it), it really doesn't affect Harry's role as "the one" of the prophecy. My thought is that Neville has still been affected by the prophecy and that he probably will have a fairly important role in its fulfillment...but that whatever he does it will be in support of Harry's carrying out the prophecy. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 04:01:12 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 04:01:12 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99075 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evita2fr" wrote: > Yes he helped him. One point for the Gryffindor. I would say more like 100 points for Gryffindor. Let's take a closer look at his dear cousin:o) "Dudley's favourite punching bag was Harry, but he could not often catch him" PS/SS, p.20 "Harry was glad school was over, but there was no escaping Dudley's gang, who visited the house every single day. Piers, Dennis, Malcolm and Gordon were all big and stupid, but as Dudley was the biggest and stupidiest of the lot, he was the leader. The rest of them were quite happy to join in Dudley's favourtie sport: Harry Hunting" PS/SS, p.31 "Harry knew perfectly well that Dudley had not been to tea ahywhere; he and his gang spent every evening vandalising the play park, smoking on street corners, and throwing stones at passing cars and children". OoP, p.3 I think the fact that Harry helped Dudsley is by itself a lot. Harry is not perfect, so I do not expect him in addition to that care to much about Dudsley physical and emotional well-being after the fact. What I like, it's > what he did after: > He dragged Diddy home,and when he's ill and his parents hyperworried, > and Harry prefer go upstairs, stay 'invisible'. It's like 'ok, I've > done the minimum, now *I*'m in danger, better to go far away before > the explosion'. Well, yeah, except I think he did more than minimum. :o) Besides, that is what Dursleys wanted all the time for Harry to stay "invinsible", right? Sorry, I am with Sherry on this one. --- > Sherry previously wrote: > > > > I wonder, now that the comparison of the two scenes has come into > my mind, > > if Snape saw any of the marauders being attacked by dementors, what > would he > > have done. Harry keeps trying to warn Dudley, even while he's > looking for > > his wand, even after Dudley has just slugged him. That's the thing > that > > always struck me in this scene. Dudley has tormented Harry all > these years, > > but he still tries to protect him and does save him. To me, that > shows good > > stuff in Harry's character. I don't know if I think Snape would > have acted > > the same in similar circumstances. And I'm not one who thinks > Snape is a > > traitor or anything. I find his character to be very complex and > > interesting. I just think that Harry acted with compassion, and I > don't > > know that Snape would have. I guess it all goes back to Harry's > desire to > > save people. > Hmm. what Snape would have done? We have Shrieking Shack as a prime example, of course. I won't go into details of him threatening to feed Sirius to dementors. I've said enough on this subject in the past. :o) I want to comment on the fact that Snape puts Sirius on the stretcher, when push comes to shove. Does it show that he can treat his beaten enemy with decency, as Pippin suggested? Very, very possibly and honestly, despite the fact that I often look for negative interpretation of Snape's actions, I would prefer for Rowling to surprise me. Honestly. :o) Now, another possibility of why Snape did not feed Sirius to dementors right away would be that he simply wanted to deliver him to Dumbledore and get the "Order of Merlin, first class" for PROPERLY catching Sirius. :( Who could blame Dear Severus, really. But if this is true, I see no comparison to how Harry acts towards his enemies. Yes, Harry snaps often, especially in OoP Yes, he gets angry often, especially in OoP (quite understandable, IMO). But frankly, I stopped worrying about his possible lack of compassion, when he stopped Sirius and Remus from killing Peter. I mean, sure he did not start loving Snape yet, but there are two more books to come. :o) Alla From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat May 22 04:14:03 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 04:14:03 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99076 Now karenoc1: ... I'm having problems with the timing of the events. I believe that we can assume that Voldemort found out about the prophecy *before* Harry and Neville were born. However, he does not attack the Potters until one year and three months *after* Harry and Neville are born. Bookworm: I had a difficult time understanding why Voldemort waited 15 months or more ? depending on when the prophecy was made - to attack the Potters. Finally, I came up with this theory. I may have posted this theory before, but I can't find it in my own notes. So here it is in a very rough form: I suspect the eavesdropper was Snape or someone who worked for him. But instead of telling Voldemort about it, he used it as his ticket to work with Dumbledore. Realizing that the "thrice defied" referred to either the Longbottoms or Potters, Dumbledore started to work with both families to set up protections using the "ancient magic" that Voldemort underestimates. When they were ready (or as ready as one can be in a war) Dumbledore told Snape to go ahead and tell Voldemort about the prophecy. That's how Dumbledore knew that the Potters (and Longbottoms) were in danger and sent them into hiding, and why there was a long delay before the attack. If Voldemort had heard there might be a prophecy, it was in their best interest to have Snape tell him ? confirming his cover with Voldemort as a spy. As I said, it's a rough version. Like a many others, I haven't figured out why Snape decided to return to Dumbledore's side. But I think it fits the canon we do know about. Ravenclaw Bookworm From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat May 22 04:14:59 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 04:14:59 -0000 Subject: Random facts about the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99077 Jolene: > > > Hagrid mentions "the McKinnons, the Bones, and the Prewetts" in chapter > > > four of SS, on page 56. --Jolene > > > > Geoff: > > The reference for UK editions is > > (PS "The Keeper of the Keys" p.45 UK edition) Mimi: > I wonder if JKR will correct this (and the stockbroker/accountant > bit) when she edits her page next. Annemehr: I never thought it was JKR's mistake so much as Ron's. He said, "I think Mum's got a second cousin who's an accountant, but we never talk about him." If they never talk about him, he could have gone from an accountant just out of school to a stockbroker with a Hogwarts-aged daughter without their ever knowing. Ron didn't sound to sure about it, anyway. Annemehr who doesn't know who the McKinnons might be, either From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat May 22 04:37:30 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 04:37:30 -0000 Subject: FILKS: H.M.S. Dumbledore - The Grand Finale Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99078 Here's the grand finale of HMS Dumbledore, my PS/SS musical via Gilbert & Sullivan, now completed. The three songs from the finale include Quirrell, the Stone - to Farewell, My Own http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/pinafore/web_opera/pn19.html A Couple Years Ago - to A Many Years Ago http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/pinafore/web_opera/pn20.html Oh Joy, Oh Capture of the Stone - Oh, Joy, Oh Rapture Unforseen http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/pinafore/web_opera/pn21.html Dedicated to Annemehr VOLDEMORT Quirrell, the stone Bring me to life, Quirrell Do not postpone This deed so I can get well QUIRRELL I'll get the stone. Or my name ain't Quirrell! I won't postpone This deed so you can get well VOLDEMORT (aside) Alone, alone Lost in an Albanian hell Though he's a drone And dunce, I must use Quirrell VOLDEMORT, QUIRRELL & CHORUS Until I'm/he's cloned I/He simply can't cast any spells Anxious my tone Awaiting that boy's death knell QUIRRELL Flesh, blood & bone Until the fourth book won't jell They'll be dethroned Is now what we two foretell VOLDEMORT & CHORUS Quirrell, the stone Bring me/him to life, Quirrell Do not postpone This deed so I/he can get well Enter The Trio TRIO Such pain and such distress Don't ever play McGonagall in chess Through the maze went us three guys Even though we're all of us pint-size VOLDEMORT (aside) It's wonderful, those three face their demise! QUIRRELL Hold! Ere upon this song We all digress, A non-Canonic twist I must protest!. [dialogue, explaining why all of Gryffindor is present, ommited] SONG ? QUIRRELL & CHORUS QUIRRELL A couple years ago, When I was in the Balkans I met your foulest foe, I saw the Dark Lord walk in TRIO & GRYFFINDOR CHORUS (explaining to each other) Just hear how he is talkin'! When he was in the Balkans He saw the Dark Lord walk in A couple years ago. QUIRRELL It seems a wicked curse Sent him into remission His body was dispersed Into an apparition. TRIO & GRYFFINDOR CHORUS (explaining to each other) Now, thanks to his sedition He went into remission As a mere apparition. Several years ago. QUIRRELL We could not get the stone My master nearly tanked it Unicorn I laid prone And then her blood we drank it TRIO (explaining to each other) Quite dark their deed we'd rank it! His master nearly tanked it Unicorn blood they drank it A couple days ago. QUIRRELL Here's how we intertwine In ways both grim and moldy The face in front is mine The face behind is Voldy!!! TRIO, VOLDEMORT & GRYFFINDOR CHORUS (explaining to each other) Quirrell is now controlled, see, In ways both grim and moldy By a Dark Lord called Voldy He's/I'm You-Know-Who, you know FINALE ? THE COMPANY VOLDEMORT & QUIRRELL Oh joy, oh capture of the stone Oh, in the mirror be it shone! It's in the pocket of that kid And of him we shall soon be rid And I/he will get a life The lying brat we try to seize VOLDEMORT, QUIRRELL & HARRY But we/they find much to our/their unease He/I wriggle(s) out of our/their fell clutch And burn(s) us/them with his/my slightest touch An unfair/foresquare sort of strife Enter DUMBLEDORE, accompanied by the rest of the cast DUMBLEDORE:. For I am Albus Brian Dumbledore . ALL: And he is anti-Dark Lord, too! DUMBLEDORE: Though Voldy may invade He is of me quite afraid So, he now says "Toodle-loo" ALL & VOLDEMORT Though Voldy/And though I may invade He's/I'm of Dumble quite afraid So, he/I'll now say(s) "Toodle-loo" DUMBLEDORE: I did, Harry, save your life As Nicky and his wife Are ready now to both turn in The stone they shall destroy It can no more be deployed Now Voldemort can never win VOLDEMORT & QUIRRELL Till Seven! DUMBLEDORE: Not Seven! VOLDEMORT & QUIRRELL Book Seven! DUMBLEDORE: Not in Seven! ALL In Seven, Voldemort won't win! Then give three cheers, and not one less For Albus Dumbledore, our H.M.S! VOLDEMORT & QUIRRELL In Seven, Voldemort will win! Then give three jeers, and much distress To Albus Dumbledore, their H.M.S! TRIO For we thwarted his Potter-ops, foul anti-Potter ops Voldemort's back on Square One We toppled his Potter-ops, his plot went Potter-flop Against James & Lily's son ALL/VOLDEMORT & QUIRRELL For they thwarted his/my Potter-ops, foul anti-Potter ops Voldemort's/And I am back on Square One They toppled his/my Potter-ops, his/my plots were utter flops Against James & Lily's son DRACO But the green and silvery Has achieved a victory It seems that Slytherin will again the house cup nab CRABBE & GOYLE Thanks to all the efforts made by Goyle and by Crabbe Especially by Goyle Who's our truest son of toil, All the efforts made by Goyle and by Crabbe DUMBLEDORE. But it goes to Gryffindor ALL: We win because of Neville With his friends he dared to level Proving he's a Gryffindor! He is a Gryffindor! (Prolonged cheering from the good guys) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated today with tons of new stuff!) From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 05:02:00 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 22:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040522050200.9303.qmail@web50003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99079 toptopera replies: But we know exactly what Snape'd do when he'd seea marauder facing a dementor. In the end of PoA, he refused to believe Sirius's story and would gladly receive an Order of Merlin for having him capture and kissed. My reply: Which is the one and probably only reason I can't stand Snape. He makes me ill because I just can't imagine him having no idea what so ever that Sirius didn't do it. There is a certain level that you have to wonder, can it be true? Certainly, I think that Snape had at least some knowledge of Wormtail, and if Wormtail was the death eater then obviously Sirius was not. Yet, he was going to have the him killed. He didn't care if he died. You can say that is the same for Sirius, but I just can't imagine Sirius turning innocent Snape over to the death eaters. That's just me. And I must add at this point that Sirius did not condemn Snape to the children in GOF, quite the opposite he said he coudln't believe that Dumbledore would have employed him if he didn't trust him. He put some faith in Snape's credibility, I personally believe that says a great deal. He told the kids to watch out for Karakoff not Snape. ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com Sat May 22 05:24:37 2004 From: tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com (tub_of_earwax) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 05:24:37 -0000 Subject: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99080 I was thinking about the bartender in the Hog's Head and Aberforth when I re-read the part in OotP where Moody shows Harry the old OotP picture. I've been reading the posts on HPFGU for a long time now, and I have not come across a post concerning the people in the picture. So, behold my speculation and thoughts on: The Picture. Notes: I will not mention people who were not in the Order in the 70's, unless connected to the original Order. And, thanks of course to the Lexicon, which has provided me with some information when I didn't feel like walking to the closet and getting the book and looking it up (you get the point). Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore: Headmaster of Hogwarts, former transfiguration teacher at Hogwarts, head of the order in both wars, he discovered the 12 uses of dragon- blood, worked on alchemy/the philosopher's stone with Nicholas Flamel, defeated the dark wizard Grindlewald in 1945, and Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot and Chairman of the International Confederation of Wizards. Generally considered the best wizard of his time, not to mention a bit mad. STATUS: Still in & head of the order Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody: Retired Auror, who is thought of as brilliant and crazy (do those come separately anyway?). He never wanted to use unforgivables or kill, only as a last resort. Very trusted by Dumbeldore. Personally I think he's a cool, loyal guy. STATUS: Still in the Order. James & Lilly Potter: Parents of Harry Potter, defied Voldemort three times, but were personally killed by Voldemort the fourth time, while Baby Harry survived. Apparently very talented and bright people. Lilly seamed responsible (prefect) and smart, and good at charms (wand, SS/PS), whereas James was a marauder, smart and better at transfiguration (animagus and wand). STATUS: Killed by Voledmort Peter Pettigrew: One of the best friends of James Potter (well, ex, that is). He was not very talented or bright and looked up to people who were more powerful than he was, i.e. James, and Voldemort. Turned spy for Voldemort, and delivered the Potters. STATUS: Death-Eater Remus Lupin: Werewolf, was given a chance at Hogwarts by Dumbledore. Bright and talented, but shunned by the general population of the WW. Was DADA- teacher at Hogwarts for a year. One of the best friends of the late James Potter. Greatest flaw: he wants people to like him (according to JKR). STATUS: Still in the Order Sirius Black: One of the best friends of the late James Potter. Bright and talented, he was the fake-secret-keeper. He came from a pure-blooded family who were very pro-Voldemort, he was very recalcitrant. Spent 12 years in Azkaban but was the only person to escape and is innocent, even though not known by most of the WW. STATUS: Killed in battle in the second war. The Longbottoms: Parents of Neville Longbottom, classmate of Harry. They come from an old pureblooded family and were both bright and talented. They were both great Aurors and were crucio'd to insanity by the Lestranges and Barty Crouch Jr. Both faced Voldemort three times and survived. STATUS: insane & incapable of pretty much anything useful (as harsh as it sounds). Emeline Vance: "Staely-looking". Part of the Advanced Guard who came to Rescue Harry from the Dursley's. STATUS: Still in the order. Dedalus Diggle: McGonnagal said she thought him "mad" in SS, when she heard how it was most probably he who sent shooting stars in Kent when he heard about the Boy who lived and the "defeat" of Voldemort. He was standing next to Dumbledore in the picture and is probably someone you can trust. He was part of the Advance Guard that helps Harry escape from the Dursley's, and appears to have helped protect pre- Hogwarts Harry. He was in the Leaky Cauldron when Hagrid brought Harry, in SS/PS. He once bowed to Harry in a shop. STATUS: Still in the order. Elphias Dodge: Old wizard. At the time of the original order, he wore a supid hat. Part of the Advance Guard that helped Harry escape from the Dursley's. STATUS: still in the order. Sturgis Podmore: Was Imperio'd when on guard, and sent to Azkaban. In the picture Moody says he looks "really young". Now the Lexicon says he was at Hogwarts with Lucius, although about 5 years younger, but I don't know where they got the info (I've searched). See thoughts later on in the post for more info on this. STATUS: Still in the order (as far as we know) Edgar Bones: Brother of Amelia Bones, part of the Wizengamot, relation of Susan Bones, in Harry's year. According to Hagrid a great wizard, along with his family. STATUS: Killed by Death-Eaters with his wife and kids. Caradoc Dearborn: STATUS: vanished, body never found. Bennji Fenwick, STATUS: killed, only bits of him found. Marlene McKinnon: Killed by Death Eaters with her whole family, two weeks after the team photo was taken. Hagrid thought her one of the best witches of the age. STATUS: Killed by Death-Eaters Dorcas Meadows: Personally killed by Voldemort, which shows how important she was to the fight against him. STATUS: Killed by LV Gideon and Fabian Prewett: Brothers who died fighting a group of 5 Death Eaters. Moody thought very highly of them, and Hagrid considered them to be among the best wizards of the age. Somehow related to Molly Weasley-Prewett. STATUS: Killed By DE Thoughts: 1) When was the picture taken? A lot of order-members were there, and it was before the demise of Voldemort. My thought would be the Christmas, or Halloween (some Holiday) before James and Lilly died. Voldemort had gone into hiding a couple of months or a year before he became Vapor!mort, so that is why maybe their spirits were not as low (they were waving, smiling and drinking), and the deaths after the picture was taken could be because Death-Eaters were still busy. So my guess would be Christmas/Halloween 1980 according to the generally accepted Timeline. Although the one problem with this date is that Harry would have been 3/6 months old. Where was he? I mean, a kid that young you don't leave with someone else usually, and the most people you trust are in the order, so where would they leave him? And if they didn't leave him (as I thought they wouldn't and couldn't because also of the dangers of the war and of such a young baby, not to mention such an important one) why was he not in the picture? Moody would have mentioned him, and we would have seen him (people in the back came to the front etc). So would it have been the Christmas/Halloween before that maybe, in 1979? 2) Why have we not seen more of Dedalus Diggle, as he must be a bit of an extrovert to be shooting stars in the air out of joy that caught the attention of muggles, which is almost against the law. Plus, in the picture he's next to Dumbledore, and he has been in the order in both wars. We have met him several times, directly and indirectly, yet he has never had a conversation with Harry or has had a part in the books as for example Kingsley had. Strange. 3) Why was Dorcas Meadows so important that he was killed by Voldemort personally? 4) Sturgis Podmore is said to look young in the picture. Lilly, James, Sirius, Peter and Remus were all young, about 23 if my memory serves me right at the time the picture was taken. Now, if Sturgis looks younger than they do, and you have to be of age etc to be in the order that means that Sturgis would have been at Hogwarts at about the same time as MWPP, Snape and Lilly, maybe even in their year. May he'll be a future window of information for Harry? Maybe even regarding Sirius? What is his place in the story anyway? He has to have some part, especially if Moody comments on how young he looked. Someone so young and willing to be in a fight against Voldemort must be cool and interesting (like Tonks). What does it mean that he is in Azkaban/ that he's been Imperio'd? Of course, this all could be a coincidence .as JKR has many unimportant coincidences. I don't see where the Lexicon gets the at school with Lucius information. It could be that he was with Lucius, and just looks younger than the Potters for example, even though he isn't. Still, interesting nonetheless. 5) Caradoc Dearborn vanished and they never found his body. This can serve two purposes: one can be that it nicely shows what war is, and how ruthless Voldemort is, or, as I speculate, it is a seemingly unsuspicious comment for the reason given above, but is actually someone who made himself conveniently vanish and then joined the dark side. One problem with my theory is that he would have had to hide out for about 12-15 years when Voldemort was Vapor! mort and in hiding. He could not have joined him, for then he would have helped him, as Peter did. He could not have shown up after Voldemort became Vapormort, as Moody would have mentioned it. He could however easily hide in the WW in another country, or in Britain in a muggle neighborhood, or with an aging potion he could slightly alter his appearance etc etc etc. Another possibility is that he turned spy, but that Dumbledore never told anyone about it. But, what did he do all the time that Voldemort was Vapormort? Did he maybe keep his new identity? Either way, except for the first possibility, an interesting figure/name to watch. 6) Why isn't Amelia Bones in the order? She seems a fair woman, talented, respected, from a good family, part of the Wizengamot, and high up also. Her brother was in it, why not she? Too dangerous? 7) Now, why Molly and Arthur weren't in the Order the first time `round has been discussed already, what I am wondering is why McGonnagal was not in the order the first time `round. She is close to Dumbledore, an able witch, who is willing to be in the order. So why isn't she? And as a matter of fact, why wasn't Hagrid? Hagrid was after all trusted with getting baby!Harry from the pile or rubble on that faithful night. 8) Same question, but with Prof Sprout and Prof Flitwick. Now Sprout I can kind of imagine, as she doesn't seem the person to go and actively battle LV. In school, you can also see that the people that are most referred to are McGonnagal, Snape, the DADA teacher, Flitwick, Hagrid, and Dumbledore when something is wrong and such. So Flitwick, why? 9) If Arabella Figg is an old friend of Dumbledore's, then why was she not in the order in the 70's? Maybe she was but just not in the picture, as she is a squib and maybe couldn't come to the location. On the other hand, Moody would have mentioned it, right? Thoughts? Just my two Knuts. *Lara*. From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 05:33:28 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 22:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge & Percy In-Reply-To: <20040521130006.94435.qmail@web50102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040522053328.34439.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99081 Moonmyyst: I am not saying that Percy is now evil, but power, itself, is such a seducer and for someone from a family that does not have much, it can be a lure. Remember what Ron saw in the mirror? He also was looking for something, power of a sort, that would raise him above his brothers. Maybe Percy is looking for something that will raise him above his family. When you are that age, you feel that you are "10 foot tall and bullet proof" - as the song goes. (I have 2 kids that age!!) He may be seeing the power but thinking that he can get it without having to do anything evil ("I can handle it"). But then again, at the end of the last war, there were several people (including the Malfoys) who "claim" that they were placed under a spell, making them do things. What if there actually is a spell. It is going to be next to impossible in such a closed world as WW to get a plant into the middle of the Order, so what better way? Find an ambitious, power hungry middle son of one of the key members of the order, seduce him with empty promises, place him under a spell, then send him back as a "repentent son" in order to gain information from the inside. I have to admit that this would be something I would try if I were a DE. Moonmyyst (who's shelties are too smart and fast to hold still) My reply: Percy Weasley is not under any spell. He has always been the odd one of the bunch. I often compare Percy to his brother Bill. Why? Well, for one thing they both were extremely smart. (Although, Charlie is probably smart..it's not his OWLS that get noticed). They both have pretty prestigious jobs, I am guessing that if you are in charge of money then you have lots of power. Money in many ways equals power. However, we don't see Bill striving for money...for power. He HAS the power, yet he chooses not to flaunt it or use it to take advantage of others. On the other hand, Fred and George have the money and flaunt it but they don't neccessarily strive for power beyond what they currently have. I don't think Percy is pure evil, however, I do think he is very blinded by what is going on right in front of him. He wants power so much that he ignors all of the warning signs that are flashing at him. Although, the wizarding world is very quick to turn their oppions of people. I mean look how quickly the condemned Sirius, even if they had a ton of muggle witnesses. Since when did muggle witnesses mean much to their world anyhow? It just seems odd to me that people through out what all they knew of Sirius, and if nothing else they ignored that it is obvious that Sirius was quite loved by James and Lily. It was a mutual love too. I mean I know you can believe one thing and have it turn out quite oppossite. But this is a boy afterall who at age 11 made a choice to defy his family and choose the house that he felt he truly belonged in. This is a child that at age 16 left home because he couldn't handle them and their "pure-blooded superiority." It just doesn't seem like the same guy who would in just a couple of years send Voldie to kill the people that had become his family. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 05:38:19 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 22:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy ending? (was: Sirius' influence on Harry) In-Reply-To: <20040521135635.12675.qmail@web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040522053819.96566.qmail@web50008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99082 SweetOnGoo wrote: I doubt that there will be a TRULY happy ending. I believe bittersweet might be a better word to use. Just because 'a happy ending' doesn't seem to be Rowling's type of style. Plus a bittersweet ending is what gives a book class. And if the ending is purely tragic, I'm sure that there will be a lesson to learn from it. SweetOnGoo My reply: I still think it's going to end with Harry dying and going to the other world. Of course, it will be happy because then Sirius can introduce him to his parents. That just makes me happy! ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jasonlava at yahoo.com Sat May 22 03:25:59 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 03:25:59 -0000 Subject: FILK: Mama Tried Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99083 Mama Tried (to the tune of Mama Tried by Merle Hagrid.. er... Haggard) HARRY The first thing I remember knowin', in a muggle family growin' And a cousin mean and almost twice my size To this family I am bound, always they put me down About from where I came the Dursley's lied Born an only wizard child, from a family meek and mild My mama knew betrayal was in store In a wizard family's lovin', disappeared right into nuthin' Till we all got attacked by Voldemort And I turned 11 at the Dursley's till he bursted through the door HAGRID: We tried to save your life, your mama tried mama tried Mama tried to save you Harry `twas the reason that she died That is why you're here today, `cuz Mama tried James and Lilly rest their souls, left us all a heavy load We knew it was the hardest thing to do Dumbledore he knew what's best, leaving you right on those steps He sent me here to find and rescue you HARRY: And I turned 11 at the Dursley's living in that filthy hole HAGRID: We tried to save your life, your mama tried mama tried Mama tried to save you Harry `twas the reason that she died That is why you're here today, `cuz Mama tried From garybec at yahoo.com Sat May 22 03:02:47 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 03:02:47 -0000 Subject: Curious Duality of Snape: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99084 > > Pippin wrote: > > > ... But Snape's actions are often at odds with his words. ... He > > > (Snape) does not turn Sirius over to the Dementors. Instead he > > > puts Sirius on a stretcher, treating him with far more dignity > > > that Sirius accorded to him, and turns him over to Dumbledore. > > bboy_mn: > > Well, well, well... something I hadn't considered before. Why indeed > did Snape not simply call back the Dementors? I'm pretty sure he said > that when he awoke, he saw the Dementors retreating to their guard > posts. If he could see them and he thought Sirius truly needed to be > 'kissed', Snape could have just yelled for the Dementors to come back. Becki ponders; I too am curious about this point, that Snape did not call the dementors over to finish off Sirius. My thought is that Snape always points out that Harry has a "certian disregard for the rules", as he repeats all through the books. Which makes me think that Snape is a stickler for rules, in which I am sure he does not have the authority to turn over Sirius over to the dementors. Also, maybe he wanted the glory of catching him and turning him over. He was of course up for the "Order of Merlin, 2nd class or possibly even 1st class, if Fudge had anything to do with it. Be that as it may, he does show enormus self-control by doing "the right thing". Starting to see Snape in a whole new lumos. --Becki From amlesis at yahoo.com Sat May 22 03:48:42 2004 From: amlesis at yahoo.com (Franzi schuerch) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 20:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040522034843.67364.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99085 > Eustace_Scrubb again: > But what bothers me about this now is: was Dumbledore so certain that Voldemort > would either (a) attack only the Potters; or (b) attack the Potters and be > annihilated as a result--that he failed to urge the Longbottoms into hiding as > well? I suppose they could have rejected the suggestion, too. Perhaps Neville > will never be alone in Dumbledore's office with the opportunity to rant at DD as > Harry did, but he may have just as much right. Franzi: The Longbottoms were aurors and may have revused to leave their jobs despite the danger. But they may have left Neville with his grandmother and used a secret keeper for the grandmother's hous? Neville wasen't attacked after all. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 22 05:54:17 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 05:54:17 -0000 Subject: Random facts ... Weasleys- inconsistency or flint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Jolene: > > > > Hagrid mentions "the McKinnons, the Bones, and the Prewetts" > > > > in chapter four of SS, on page 56. --Jolene > > > Geoff: > > > The reference for UK editions is > > > (PS "The Keeper of the Keys" p.45 UK edition) > Mimi: > > I wonder if JKR will correct this (and the stockbroker/accountant > > bit) when she edits her page next. > Annemehr: > I never thought it was JKR's mistake so much as Ron's. He said, "I > think Mum's got a second cousin who's an accountant, but we never > talk about him." If they never talk about him, he could have gone > from an accountant just out of school to a stockbroker with a > Hogwarts-aged daughter without their ever knowing. Ron didn't sound > to sure about it, anyway. > > Annemehr > who doesn't know who the McKinnons might be, either bboy_mn: Also, keep in mind that we are comparing a portion of the published book with a draft that was never integrated into the story; that is never published, and therefore subject to change. Note from JKR's website that Ron is one of something like three characters in the whole series who kept the same last name from beginning to end; beginning to end of the planning of the books. So, it's possible that other Weasley brothers were not originally Weasleys, but as JKR worked out the story and refind things a bit, they were merged into one big happy family. Not stating that as a fact, just trying to illustrate how this mysterious Weasley relative could, as Ron said, be an accountant in Ron's mind, yet still be a stockbroker in the rough draft in which that person orginally was intended to appear. We can't treat every detail of a rough draft as absolute canon. We have an apparent inconsistency, but not necessarily an mistake or a flint. Just a thought. bboy_mn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 06:24:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 06:24:27 -0000 Subject: another LV - Riddle question In-Reply-To: <004401c43e0b$d97878d0$982c56d2@Angel> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99087 > Gina: Okay let me clarify - I know it is possible Tom could be related heir" of Slytherin, but why would SS RECOGNIZE a mudblood as his heir? Does that make more sense? Yes, they could be related, but why would Slytherin condone this mudblood messing up the perfectly pure family tree? Carol: I thought sure this had been mentioned before, but apparently it was overlooked so I'll repeat it. Tom is *not* a mudblood; he's a halfblood. His father was a Muggle, but his witch mother is descended from Salazar Slytherin. In fact, as DD points out, he's the "only living ancestor of Slytherin" ("ancestor" is an obvious error for "descendant"; IIRC, JKR has acknowledged it as a flint). So, *by blood,* Tom is the heir of Slytherin. And the fact that he can speak Parseltongue, a trait inherited from Salazar, enables him to open the door. That, possibly, is how the very dead Salazar determined that his heir would be recognized when the time came. He himself can't recognize anyone, being dead. I also think that Tom found out somehow about the legend of Salazar Slytherin and the Chamber of Secrets, and since he shared Slytherin's ability to speak Parseltongue and his hatred of Muggles and Muggle-borns because of his own "filthy Muggle father," he suspected that perhaps *he* was the mysterious heir of Slytherin. All he needed to do was to ask a sympathetic professor, possibly even Dumbledore but more likely the then-head of Slytherin House, about his wizard relatives, find out Grandpa Marvolo's last name and look him up in "Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Genealogy," and trace his ancestry back to Salazar himself. From that point on, he would devote all his spare time to the search for the Chamber of Secrets, and once he found it, as the born heir and a Parseltongue speaker, he would have been able not only to open it (as Harry also did), but to unseal it. It has nothing to do, IMO, with Salazar Slytherin recognizing him, or with his having Muggle blood on one side. He was, so to speak, born with the power, or at least the potential, to open the chamber. And his father being was actually an asset because Tom's hated Muggle blood fueled his hatred of Muggles and Muggle-borns. It isn't logical, but hatred never is. BTW, I would call Salazar Slytherin SS, but those are Snape's initials. I guess we could call him Sally or Sallie (JKR will never know). Or how about Sal? Carol, who is trying to remember what Kneasy calls Salazar S. but doesn't want to waste half an hour using the search engine to jog her memory From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 06:39:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 06:39:52 -0000 Subject: Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99088 Becki wrote: > > Sorry for the paraphrasing on my original post, but I was going by > memory and I could not find the original message. Indeed he > was "chased out". I had to chuckle when I saw that quibbler > headline. I am sure it will make for a funny bit in the book. Kind > of like the Umbridge bit in the hospital wing at the end of OoP, > when the kids were making "clucking/clicking sounds" like hooves and > she was startled. Ya just gotta like the deserving ones getting it > in the end. Carol: Then again the Quibbler also said that Fudge had an army of heliopaths and that he has ordered goblins to be baked in pies. I'm not so sure that we can trust a Quibbler headline as an accurate prediction of the way things are going to happen in the books. We do know that there will be a new minister of magic, presumably in Book 6 but possibly in Book 7, but that's from the March 4 chat, a more reliable source than a cute headline in the Rumours section of JKR's new Web site. I did note, though, that the Quibbler ad was on the right-hand side of the page, under "Exclusives" rather than "Gossip." For those of you who don't have hours to spend waiting for Peeves to strike and pursuing those elusive clues (neither do I!), the ad also refers to the Quibbler as "the Wizarding World's Alternative Voice" and asks, with reference to the Fudge article, "Can you afford NOT to read it?" Carol, who wonders whether Lupin has read the ad for Madam Malkin's self-ironing and self-mending robes (too bad only the super-sized robes are on sale for half price) From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat May 22 07:06:47 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 07:06:47 -0000 Subject: Random facts ... Weasleys- inconsistency or flint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99089 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Mimi: > > > I wonder if JKR will correct this (and the stockbroker/accountant > > > bit) when she edits her page next. > > > > Annemehr: > > I never thought it was JKR's mistake so much as Ron's. He said, "I > > think Mum's got a second cousin who's an accountant, but we never > > talk about him." If they never talk about him, he could have gone > > from an accountant just out of school to a stockbroker with a > > Hogwarts-aged daughter without their ever knowing. Ron didn't sound > > to sure about it, anyway. Geoff: I would agree. Ron says "I /think/ Mum's got a second cousin...." He's not sure whether (1) he's a second cousin or (2) he's an accountant. (3) I assume he's a good deal older than Ron and so he hasn't bothered/wanted/needed to find out. Again, why "think"? Because they never talk about him. I have a second cousin who is older than me, whom I only met for the first time last year. I don't know what she did as a job; it's just never come up in conversation. I've side before that, in real world situations, we don't interrogate new acquaintances or our realtives so that we know every last detail about them. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat May 22 07:50:18 2004 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 07:50:18 -0000 Subject: Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > So I've been looking through baby name books (pathetic, I know) regarding Ginny's full > name: Ginevra Molly Weasley. > > "Ginevra" has a couple of roots (so to speak). One is a (possible) connection to the ginger > plant ('gingiver' being the name in late Latin). Of course, 'ginger' is a common nickname > for a redhead. > > The other is that it is a Celtic name related to "Guinevere." I personally go for the Ginevra -> Guinevere connection, but I thought I'd mention another famous Ginevra. Leonardo de Vinci did a famous painting of Ginevra de' Benci. More information and a picture can be found here: http://www.lairweb.org.nz/leonardo/female.html --Arcum From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 22 09:31:01 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 09:31:01 -0000 Subject: Curious Duality of Snape: (was: Harry begins to act ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Well, well, well... something I hadn't considered before. Why indeed > did Snape not simply call back the Dementors? I'm pretty sure he said > that when he awoke, he saw the Dementors retreating to their guard > posts. If he could see them and he thought Sirius truly needed to be > 'kissed', Snape could have just yelled for the Dementors to come back. > Two points to consider: 1. Who do the Dementors take their orders from? The Ministry. That being so, why would they take any notice of Snape? If any wizard-in- the-street could give them instructions or requests then the WW would be a very dangerous place. The only instruction they seem to respond to is "Go away!" accompanied by a Patronus. 2. (And this covers one of my favourite theories), what makes you think they were after Sirius anyway? On the three occasions that they enter Hogwarts grounds they seem much more interested in Harry. At no time in PoA does a Dementor even attempt to attack Sirius. Don't you think that's a bit odd? No; in Snape's position I wouldn't try to call them back either. There's no guarantee that even if they responded they would restrict their amorous propensities to the target you designate. Kneasy From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 22 09:38:06 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 09:38:06 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99092 Melanie wrote: I just can't imagine Sirius turning innocent Snape over to the death eaters.. This would be the same Sirius who happily turned him over to a werewolf!! Sylvia (who is hoping you are not going to say he was only 15) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat May 22 10:32:25 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 10:32:25 -0000 Subject: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99093 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tub_of_earwax" wrote: I snipped your statements- > > Thoughts: > > 1) When was the picture taken? Your guess is as good as mine. If it's true, that Lily and James were pretty young when they had Harry, then it must have been after 1978, because otherwise they still would have been at school and therefore wouldn't be allowed to join the Order. But because I think that James and Lily are in fact a bit older, and that JKR meant that Snape was 35 during PS and not during GF, it is also possible that it was a few years earlier. > > 4) Sturgis Podmore is said to look young in the picture. Lilly, > James, Sirius, Peter and Remus were all young, about 23 if my memory > serves me right at the time the picture was taken. Now, if Sturgis > looks younger than they do, and you have to be of age etc to be in > the order that means that Sturgis would have been at Hogwarts at > about the same time as MWPP, Snape and Lilly, maybe even in their > year. May he'll be a future window of information for Harry? > Maybe > even regarding Sirius? What is his place in the story anyway? He has > to have some part, especially if Moody comments on how young he > looked. Someone so young and willing to be in a fight against > Voldemort must be cool and interesting (like Tonks). What does it > mean that he is in Azkaban/ that he's been Imperio'd? Of > course, > this all could be a coincidence .as JKR has many unimportant > coincidences. I don't see where the Lexicon gets the at school > with > Lucius information. It could be that he was with Lucius, and just > looks younger than the Potters for example, even though he isn't. > Still, interesting nonetheless. I don't know where it was in the book, but I am sure that Sturgis' age was given. I haven't got the book to look right now, sadly. But it might have been during the article where it was stated that he was arrested. But I know that I read his age somehwere in the books. > > 5) Caradoc Dearborn vanished and they never found his body. > This can serve two purposes: one can be that it nicely shows what > war is, and how ruthless Voldemort is, or, as I speculate, it is a > seemingly unsuspicious comment for the reason given above, but is > actually someone who made himself conveniently vanish and then > joined the dark side. One problem with my theory is that he would > have had to hide out for about 12-15 years when Voldemort was Vapor! > mort and in hiding. He could not have joined him, for then he would > have helped him, as Peter did. He could not have shown up after > Voldemort became Vapormort, as Moody would have mentioned it. He > could however easily hide in the WW in another country, or in > Britain in a muggle neighborhood, or with an aging potion he could > slightly alter his appearance etc etc etc. Another possibility is > that he turned spy, but that Dumbledore never told anyone about it. > But, what did he do all the time that Voldemort was Vapormort? Did > he maybe keep his new identity? Either way, except for the first > possibility, an interesting figure/name to watch. I thought about this, too. Maybe we will hear from him again. The same is possible for Benji Fenwyck. Yes, they found bits of him, but they found also bits of Peter Pettigrew (okay, one bit). About your questions why certain characters weren't in the Order the first time. The simple answer could be, that they were in the Order, but just not there when the picture was taken. After all, there was no moment, when every Order member was at Grimmauld Place, so why should there have been a moment when every Order member was at headquarters during the first war. Besides, we know that Arabella Figg and Mundungus Fletcher were part of the old crowd. The old crowd has to be the Order, meaning Arabella and Mundungus were Order members in the first war. They just weren't on the photo. Hickengruendler From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 22 10:42:33 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 10:42:33 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99094 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Naahh, I was kidding. I'm not very interested in ESE theories, > because it is usually obvious they'll just won't happen. I got > interested for about a day in ESE!Harry only because it seemed more > difficult to generate. You'd have to get over the point-of-view > problem: as readers we get to look into Harry's mind all the time, so > we know he is not evil. Obvious it won't happen? So what? What's that got to do with anything? 90% of the SHIPping theories won't happen either but that's never stopped the romantically inclined from indulging their fantasies. The ESE!Harry scenario that I occasionally indulge in is based on the premise that Harry is involutarily ESE - *but doesn't yet realise it.* This is more intellectually challenging but also more logical. How many people class *themselves* as evil? Damn few. Usually that's the opinion of others - it's a title that is given rather than claimed. Do the Malfoys consider themselves evil, or Snape, or even Bella? I doubt it. They are just doing what they consider to be necessary to achieve their ends. I doubt too that they see their ends as evil - just perhaps a little selfish and very convenient for their dream life-styles. By the same token Harry would not perceive himself as evil - it's just that nobody seems to agree with him, nobody considers what he wants and he 's getting more and more out of step with those around him. Self-regard and selfishness. A potentially long slippery slope to true Slytherin-hood, inevitably engendered by whatever bits of Voldy were transferred to him at Godric's Hollow. And one day he'll wake up and realise that his friends aren't so close any more, he's fed up of DD running his life and isn't it time to consider other options? And isn't he about the same age that Tom was when he made decisions about his future? The odds of this actually happening are miniscule (probably), but it can be examined as *one* logical extrapolation, given his history, behaviour and circumstances. The Prophecy did say that he (presumably) would be Voldy's equal; it didn't say that he would be Voldy's opposite. Yes he fights Voldy, and why? Because Voldy is evil? Not really. He has two reasons - firstly because Voldy keeps attacking him and secondly because Voldy killed his parents. Both very *personal* reasons - philosophical convictions about good and evil are very low on the list. I've been twiddling my thumbs waiting for the 'Temptation' - a classic plot device where the hero is seduced by, well, the Dark Side, if you like. Who wouldn't be tempted by say, unlimited power? As yet this hasn't happened. Yes, I know Draco tried to recruit him very early on, but what did Harry know then? Not much. Yet again it was a decision based on personal likes/dislikes. So much of what Harry does is based on the personal. It makes him vulnerable; he can be conned. He could even con himself. If the 'Temptation' happens at all it'll probably be in the next book. Maybe for the first time Harry will have to make one of those choices that DD is so keen on. Won't that be interesting? Kneasy From queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com Sat May 22 11:38:10 2004 From: queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 11:38:10 -0000 Subject: Curious Duality of Snape: (was: Harry begins to act ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > Two points to consider: > > 1. Who do the Dementors take their orders from? The Ministry. That > being so, why would they take any notice of Snape? If any wizard-in- > the-street could give them instructions or requests then the WW > would be a very dangerous place. The only instruction they seem to > respond to is "Go away!" accompanied by a Patronus. > 2. (And this covers one of my favourite theories), what makes you > think they were after Sirius anyway? On the three occasions that they > enter Hogwarts grounds they seem much more interested in Harry. > At no time in PoA does a Dementor even attempt to attack Sirius. > Don't you think that's a bit odd? Yeah, I always considered that the Ministry and Dumbledore would have been controlling the Demetors. We've heard Dumbledore had gotten mad at the Dementors at the Quidditch match, and he would've backed them off. That said, I don't think the Dementors were acting on orders in some instances, because their temptation got the better of them. But yes, they were their under orders to get Sirius Black, but Harry, considered a bigger treat was there too. I presume that before Voldemort's defeat the first time, Dementors were on Voldemort's side. What if Dementors were not interested in Harry because of his dark past, but because Voldemort had wanted to defeat him in the first place? I'm sure Harry isn't the only one at Hogwarts with a tragic past as bad as his... so in one way they were not acting on Ministry orders when faced with Harry, bu they might have been loyal to voldemort, maybe? Maria http://www.geocities.com/queen_amidalachic From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 22 11:41:33 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 11:41:33 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: <20040522050200.9303.qmail@web50003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99096 Melanie wrote: > My reply: Which is the one and probably only reason I can't stand Snape. He makes me ill because I just can't imagine him having no idea what so ever that Sirius didn't do it. There is a certain level that you have to wonder, can it be true? Certainly, I think that Snape had at least some knowledge of Wormtail, and if Wormtail was the death eater then obviously Sirius was not. Yet, he was going to have the him killed. He didn't care if he died. You can say that is the same for Sirius, but I just can't imagine Sirius turning innocent Snape over to the death eaters. That's just me. > > And I must add at this point that Sirius did not condemn Snape to the children in GOF, quite the opposite he said he coudln't believe that Dumbledore would have employed him if he didn't trust him. He put some faith in Snape's credibility, I personally believe that says a great deal. He told the kids to watch out for Karakoff not Snape. > Potioncat; I didn't snip at all because I'm responding to it all. I understand what you mean. If you believe that Snape knew about Wormtail and had reason to doubt Black's guilt, then Snape is terrible. But if he thinks Black was the traitor (as I think he does) then he's behaving pretty well. He doesnt' turn Sirius over to the dementers. Sirius said he'd never heard of Snape being a Death Eater and doubted DD would have hired him if he had been. On the other hand, he knew Karkaroff was a DE. That's why he told them to watch out for him. And, Snape never told Harry about Sirius or really even how bad James had been. Harry found that out himself. Potioncat From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Sat May 22 06:32:15 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 06:32:15 -0000 Subject: Fudge & Percy In-Reply-To: <20040522053328.34439.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99097 Melanie wote: > > Percy Weasley is not under any spell. He has always been the odd one of the bunch. I often compare Percy to his brother Bill. Why? Well, for one thing they both were extremely smart. (Although, Charlie is probably smart..it's not his OWLS that get noticed). They both have pretty prestigious jobs, I am guessing that if you are in charge of money then you have lots of power. Money in many ways equals power. However, we don't see Bill striving for money...for power. He HAS the power, yet he chooses not to flaunt it or use it to take advantage of others. On the other hand, Fred and George have the money and flaunt it but they don't neccessarily strive for power beyond what they currently have. > My understanding of Percy is that he is a political animal. He blows with the wind. And in book five, the wind was with Fudge. Notice how loyal he is to Dumbledore when he is prefect. He stays over for the Christmas holidays because it was his duty as a prefect to support the teachers during this troubled time. (CoS 12) As Head Boy he follows Dumbledore's orders and guards the students while the faculty look for Black (POA 9). Once he is out of Hogwarts, he no longer needs Dumbledore and now the winds blows the direction of Mr. Crouch. Between the ending of book 4 and the begining of book 5 the political winds change again. This time to Fudge, and more importantly, against Dumbledore and Harry. Since he knows how close his family is to these two, he distances himself from them. Now that the political winds have changed again, this time against Fudge, I expect Percy to change with him. However, he does not realize the bridges he has already burned. Mike From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat May 22 13:37:49 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 13:37:49 -0000 Subject: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99098 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tub_of_earwax" wrote: >Lara's Thoughts: > > 1) When was the picture taken? A lot of order-members were > there, and it was before the demise of Voldemort. My thought would > be the Christmas, or Halloween (some Holiday) before James and Lilly > died. Voldemort had gone into hiding a couple of months or a year > before he became Vapor!mort, so that is why maybe their spirits were > not as low snip Meri: Where does it say in cannon that LV was in hiding a year before the attack on the Potters? I have just finished rereading the first four books of the series and I don't recall that peice of information. > 7) Now, why Molly and Arthur weren't in the Order the first > time `round has been discussed already, what I am wondering is > why > McGonnagal was not in the order the first time `round. She is > close > to Dumbledore, an able witch, who is willing to be in the order. So > why isn't she? And as a matter of fact, why wasn't Hagrid? > Hagrid > was after all trusted with getting baby!Harry from the pile or > rubble on that faithful night. Meri: Hagrid was in the picture, and the Order, as well. Page 174: Moody says, "Hagrid, of course, looks exactly the same as ever..." Meri From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Sat May 22 06:20:10 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 06:20:10 -0000 Subject: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99099 Lara wrote: > Thoughts: > > > 2) Why have we not seen more of Dedalus Diggle, as he must be a > bit of an extrovert to be shooting stars in the air out of joy that > caught the attention of muggles, which is almost against the law. > Plus, in the picture he's next to Dumbledore, and he has been in > the > order in both wars. We have met him several times, directly and > indirectly, yet he has never had a conversation with Harry or has > had a part in the books as for example Kingsley had. Strange. > I am also confused about Dedalus Diggle. He was excited to meet Harry in The Leaky Cauldron (SS 5). When Harry says that he has seen him before, Dedalus tells everyone, "He remembers! Did you hear that? He remembers me!" Even in the movie we see Doris Crockford, but not Mr. Diggle. In the fifth book (OoTP 3) When Lupin introduces Dedalus Diggle, Diggle squeaks. "We've met before," and drops his top hat. There seems to be more to this character than what we are seeing. Although McGonagall says he never had much sense (SS 1). He is not mentioned in the next three books but here he is again. Something like an old Colin Creevey. My guess is that he is a friend of Dumbledore and joined out of loyal to him, rather than actually being of some use. He does seem the tyoe to voluteer to be a part of the advanced guard. Mike From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 12:36:17 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 05:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040522123617.5744.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99100 tub_of_earwax wrote: Sturgis Podmore: Was Imperio'd when on guard, and sent to Azkaban. In the picture Moody says he looks "really young". Now the Lexicon says he was at Hogwarts with Lucius, although about 5 years younger, but I don't know where they got the info (I've searched). See thoughts later on in the post for more info on this. STATUS: Still in the order (as far as we know) Is it my imagination, but wasn't the ghost who denied Nick from riding in the Headless Hunt a Podmore? (just a random thought) I like your reasoning on the picture. I cannot wait until the canon experts weigh in!! I learn so much from you guys!! Moonmyyst From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 22 14:35:31 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 14:35:31 -0000 Subject: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tub_of_earwax" wrote: > Sirius Black: > One of the best friends of the late James Potter. Bright and talented, he was the fake-secret-keeper. He came from a pure-blooded family who were very pro-Voldemort, he was very recalcitrant. < It would be as true to say that he came from a family who rebelled against Voldemort. Remember who killed Regulus. > Bennji Fenwick, > STATUS: killed, only bits of him found. He's another one who could still be alive, depending on which bits were found. Moody does not say that the picture showed everyone who was in the Order at the time it was taken. It would be a security risk to have all the members meet at one time. And perhaps someone was taking the picture, as well. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 14:55:01 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 14:55:01 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > Melanie wrote: > > I just can't imagine Sirius turning innocent Snape over to the death > eaters.. > > This would be the same Sirius who happily turned him over to a > werewolf!! > > Sylvia (who is hoping you are not going to say he was only 15) Ummm, hate to disturb the Prank again, but we don't know what exactly went on in Sirius' head that night, we don't know whether he was happily planning to turn Snape over to werewolf, or scare him badly. (Which of course does not excuse him at all, but by the same token does not make him to be attempted murderer, who yes indeed was 15 :o)) We also don't know whether Sirius had some understandable reasons to plot revenge against Snape (not JUSTIFIABLE, mind you , but UNDERSTANDABLE. Like some posters speculated that Snape could have something to do with Regilus recrutment to DE). We don't know a lot about events of that night and I was so happy to read from JKR that we will learn more eventually. At the same time, we saw full events of PoA Shrieking Shack and I still cannot draw the fair comparison yet because of the lack of information. Alla From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat May 22 15:21:22 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 15:21:22 -0000 Subject: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99104 >Lara wrote: > Sturgis Podmore: > Was Imperio'd when on guard, and sent to Azkaban. In the picture > Moody says he looks "really young". Now the Lexicon says he > was at > Hogwarts with Lucius, although about 5 years younger, but I don't > know where they got the info (I've searched). Neri: OotP, Ch. 14: "the item was barely an inch long and placed right at the bottom of a column. It was headlined: TRESPASS AT MINISTRY Sturgis Podmore, 38, of number two, Laburnum Gardens, Clapham, has appeared in front of the Wizcngamot charged with trespass and attempted robbery at the Ministry of Magic on 31" August. Podmore was arrested by Ministry of Magic watchwizard Eric Munch, who found him attempting to force his way through a top-security door at one o'clock in the morning. Podmore, who refused to speak, in his own defence, was convicted on both charges and sentenced to six months in Azkaban. 'Sturgis Podmore?' said Ron slowly. 'He's that bloke who looks like his head's been thatched, isn't he?" Neri From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sat May 22 17:13:43 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 17:13:43 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99105 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > > Why did Bellatrix and the others believe that the Longbottoms would > have any useful information? Well, here's an idea...probably not > original and maybe easily refuted...but anyway: > > Dumbledore at least seems to assume that Voldemort knew about both > children. Now I know that Voldemort regularly does things that seem > illogical, but I would think Voldemort would actually want to > eliminate both children, not try to _guess_ which one he should kill. > I mean, there are two candidates, not a thousand. If he can kill one > infant, two wouldn't be that much harder. And it would be so much > tidier. > > The only problem is that he can't kill them at the same time; one has > to be first (yes, I know time turners could solve that problem, but > let's assume that time turners are not going to be in rampant use in > the series). So Voldemort plans to kill the Potters first, then the > Longbottoms and he told at least some of the Death Eaters that he > would be doing this. But he probably did not confide in even his most > trusted followers _why_ he wanted to kill these two families; why give > them the idea that he might be vulnerable? There was ample reason to > set an example by these murders, as both sets of parents had been > thorns in his side. > > Of course, nobody counted on the rebound of the AK spell that > disembodied Voldemort. The Death Eaters knew that the Potters were > dead, their house destroyed--all signs of their Dark Lord's success; > yes their child had survived, but they probably didn't see the > significance of that. The Longbottoms on the other hand were alive > and well...how could that be, unless they had somehow > defeated/captured/killed Voldemort when he got to them? This is why > the LeStranges and Barty Crouch Jr. tortured the Longbottoms (rather > than just killing them, for example). By the time it became clear > that Frank and Alice had no information, the Crucio curses had driven > them mad. > For your theory to be correct, we must assume that the Longbottoms were attacked almost immediately after the Potters' death, since within a day or two it was known all over the WW that Voldemort had been vanquished by Harry Potter. But according to canon, the Longbottoms were attacked a long time (years) after Voldemort's downfall. My theory about why the DEs targeted the Longbottoms is also speculative and relates to their job as Aurors: We know that DD and others in the WW didn't believe that Voldemort had been truly vanquished. It makes sense, then, that there would be aurors assigned specifically to find where he was hiding, what exactly had happened to him, etc. In fact, it doesn't make sense not to have done so, when we know that there was a sustained, years-long effort to round up DEs. If there were such aurors, the Lestranges et al. would of course try to find information regarding Voldemort from them. They might have had many connections with the MoM, but we are certain of one - Crouch Jr. was the son of one of the most powerful MoM officials, and could easily find out who were the aurors assigned to find Voldemort. So, my theory is that the Longbottoms were attacked because they were the aurors (or some of them) whose mission was to find Voldemort. Naama From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 17:22:04 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 17:22:04 -0000 Subject: Dementors and orders (was: Curious Duality of Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99106 --- > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > Two points to consider: > > > > 1. Who do the Dementors take their orders from? The Ministry. That > > being so, why would they take any notice of Snape? If any wizard- in- > > the-street could give them instructions or requests then the WW > > would be a very dangerous place. The only instruction they seem to > > respond to is "Go away!" accompanied by a Patronus. > > > 2. (And this covers one of my favourite theories), what makes you > > think they were after Sirius anyway? On the three occasions that > they > > enter Hogwarts grounds they seem much more interested in Harry. > > At no time in PoA does a Dementor even attempt to attack Sirius. > > Don't you think that's a bit odd? > > Maria > Yeah, I always considered that the Ministry and Dumbledore would have > been controlling the Demetors. We've heard Dumbledore had gotten mad > at the Dementors at the Quidditch match, and he would've backed them > off. > snip > Lady McBeth: Haven't we also seen a situation where someone else controls the Dementors, although she probably used her authority at the MOM to send them? That's right, everyone's favorite toad: Umbridge sends the Dementors to Privet Drive to shut Harry up. It is certainly possible, based on the info in OotP, that the Demenors were following the orders of someone else in the Ministry in POA. Unless of course you happen to be a fan of ESE!Fudge. Who else in the MOM might have had access to Dementor orders? Lady McBeth From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sat May 22 17:27:57 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 17:27:57 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99107 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > > But what bothers me about this now is: was Dumbledore so certain that > Voldemort would either (a) attack only the Potters; or (b) attack the > Potters and be annihilated as a result--that he failed to urge the > Longbottoms into hiding as well? I suppose they could have rejected > the suggestion, too. Perhaps Neville will never be alone in > Dumbledore's office with the opportunity to rant at DD as Harry did, > but he may have just as much right. > There's no canon to show that DD told the Potters to go into hiding immediately after he heard the prophecy. What we are told (by Fudge, I believe) is that a spy told him that Voldemort was after the Potters, and it was only then that he urged them to go into hiding. I've always thought that DD didn't know, until the warning came from his "useful spy" that Voldemort had any knowledge of the prophecy. Naama From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sat May 22 17:48:06 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 17:48:06 -0000 Subject: Random facts ... Weasleys- inconsistency or flint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99108 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" > bboy_mn: > > Also, keep in mind that we are comparing a portion of the published > book with a draft that was never integrated into the story; that is > never published, and therefore subject to change. > > Note from JKR's website that Ron is one of something like three > characters in the whole series who kept the same last name from > beginning to end; beginning to end of the planning of the books. So, > it's possible that other Weasley brothers were not originally > Weasleys, but as JKR worked out the story and refind things a bit, > they were merged into one big happy family. > > Not stating that as a fact, just trying to illustrate how this > mysterious Weasley relative could, as Ron said, be an accountant in > Ron's mind, yet still be a stockbroker in the rough draft in which > that person orginally was intended to appear. We can't treat every > detail of a rough draft as absolute canon. > Can't a person be an accountant (i.e., trained as one) AND a stockbroker (i.e., in his current job)? Naama From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 22 18:07:10 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 18:07:10 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Ummm, hate to disturb the Prank again, but we don't know what exactly went on in Sirius' head that night, we don't know whether he was happily planning to turn Snape over to werewolf, or scare him badly. < By the same token, when Snape said he was going to turn Sirius over to the Dementors, and your little werewolf too, we don't know whether he was happily planning to do it, or scare them badly. Pippin From LadySawall at aol.com Sat May 22 18:29:24 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 14:29:24 EDT Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... Message-ID: <1e2.2140999c.2de0f604@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99110 In a message dated 05/22/2004 12:46:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Potioncat writes: Sirius said he'd never heard of Snape being a Death Eater and doubted DD would have hired him if he had been. On the other hand, he knew Karkaroff was a DE. That's why he told them to watch out for him. And, Snape never told Harry about Sirius or really even how bad James had been. Harry found that out himself. Another good point...even if Snape didn't care to revisit his own Worst Memory, at any time throughout the series he could surely have arranged for Harry to find out *exactly* what a prat James had been. With a little selective editing, he could have gotten the essentials across without having to reveal how thoroughly the Marauders had victimized him personally. Lily did say James would hex *anyone* who annoyed him, just because he could. Heck, Snape's a spy...surely he could even arrange to plant the information in such a way that Harry would never know he was the source. But he has always stuck to generalizations about James' character, never delving into specifics of any kind...I wonder why? Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat May 22 18:32:12 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 19:32:12 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? References: <1085135790.6870.10513.m16@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000a01c4402b$19e18d00$1a4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 99111 Eustace wrote: > Why did Bellatrix and the others believe that the Longbottoms would > have any useful information? Well, here's an idea...probably not > original and maybe easily refuted...but anyway: > the series). So Voldemort plans to kill the Potters first, then the > Longbottoms and he told at least some of the Death Eaters that he > would be doing this. But he probably did not confide in even his most > trusted followers _why_ he wanted to kill these two families; why give > them the idea that he might be vulnerable? There was ample reason to > set an example by these murders, as both sets of parents had been > thorns in his side. We know that Voldemort heard part of the prophecy second hand from the eavesdropper, so at least one other DE knew it. We don't know of course how closely Voldemort would have kept his own counsel on something like that or whether he would have sought the views of his lieutenants. _Somone_ would have had to have done the research to find out how many children would have fitted the bill, also. But it's interesting that Voldemort didn't take a full posse to Godric's Hollow with him - if he had, then firstly they would have known what had happened, and secondly, one of them could have physically scooped Harry out of the ruins and disposed of him in a thoroughly non-magical manner, such as dropping him in the Irish Sea. Harry sleeps with the fishies and there's no story to tell. > significance of that. The Longbottoms on the other hand were alive > and well...how could that be, unless they had somehow > defeated/captured/killed Voldemort when he got to them? This is why > the LeStranges and Barty Crouch Jr. tortured the Longbottoms (rather > than just killing them, for example). By the time it became clear > that Frank and Alice had no information, the Crucio curses had driven > them mad. One other possibility is that the Longbottoms _were_ at Godric's Hollow that night and that they were sent with Hagrid as a rescue party. We know from canon that someone else was there with Hagrid because Dumbledore hadn't talked with Hagrid between his rescuing Harry and the rendezvous at Privet Drive, but nonetheless he was fully aware of what had happened. There are other good reasons: Hagrid, bless 'im, is a good bloke in a fight, but sending him against Voldemort on his own would have meant certain death if Voldemort had still been alive. Also, someone told the media what had happened in time for the early editions, meaning that the WW were out on the streets first thing in the morning for Vernon to see on his way to work. If the mysterious "someone" was the Longbottoms - say they arrived just too late, just in time to see a green flash in the upstairs room, the explosion, and the house collapsing - then it would explain why the DEs would be really interested in interrogating them afterwards. > Any thoughts on this? Is this off the wall? But JKR alone knows all Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From happydogue at aol.com Sat May 22 18:54:46 2004 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 14:54:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99112 In a message dated 5/21/2004 1:13:49 PM Central Daylight Time, dk59us at yahoo.com writes: > My take on Bellatrix is a bit different. I believe she thinks of > herself as Voldemort's right hand. I'm not sure her boss thinks of > anyone as his right hand. (All this talk of right hands is going to > get me back to the Prophecy again...must resist Prophecy analysis...) > > Here is another take... Before LV 's powers were diminished could have Bellatrix been LV's lover? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 22 19:06:16 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 19:06:16 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > My theory about why the DEs targeted the Longbottoms is also > speculative and relates to their job as Aurors: > > We know that DD and others in the WW didn't believe that Voldemort had been truly vanquished. It makes sense, then, that there would be aurors assigned specifically to find where he was hiding, what exactly had happened to him, etc.< Pippin: "[...] I dared not go where other humans were plentiful, for I knew the Aurors were still abroad and searching for me." -Voldemort, GoF ch33. It makes sense to me that the Longbottoms would be in charge of the hunt for Voldemort since they'd survived more encounters with him than anyone else. >From what Fudge says, Voldemort tried to keep it secret that he was after the Potters. Maybe he was just more successful in keeping secret that he was after the Longbottoms, too. It would be a reasonable precaution for them to go into hiding anyway. If they had a more faithful secret keeper, then neither Voldemort or his servants could have found them. But they might have come out of hiding to pursue Voldemort once he had been disembodied and his followers had been arrested or deserted him. I think the attack on the Longbottoms came after most of the suspected Death Eaters had been rounded up. Sirius says in GoF that the Lestranges had "talked their way out of Azkaban" before young Crouch was found with them. Pippin From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Sat May 22 19:33:02 2004 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 19:33:02 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: <000001c43ee3$a13db290$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > I guess it all goes back to Harry's desire to > save people. Alice: You mean he has a "saving people thing"? Watch out for the Hermione in you... :) Christelle : Alice: I thought your mail was utterly fascinating. It got me thinking about the first Occlumency lesson, when Snape goes on about "fools who bear their hearts" or something, who are weak. I was wondering whether Snape displays exactly this kind of wekness somewhere along the line, can you think of anything? Or maybe he DID do that before he was taunted at Hogwarts? Alice From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat May 22 19:54:18 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 19:54:18 -0000 Subject: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99116 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: Hickengruendler: > I don't know where it was in the book, but I am sure that Sturgis' > age was given. I haven't got the book to look right now, sadly. But > it might have been during the article where it was stated that he was > arrested. But I know that I read his age somehwere in the books. Geoff: 'Sturgis Podmore, 38, of number two Laburnham Gardens, Clapham, has appeared in front of the Wizengamot charged with trepass and attempted robbery at the Ministry of Magic on 31st August.' (OOTP "Percy and Padfoot" p.258 UK edition) So that settles Sturgis' age for us in the summer of 1995. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat May 22 20:10:54 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 20:10:54 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: Naama; > For your theory to be correct, we must assume that the Longbottoms > were attacked almost immediately after the Potters' death, since > within a day or two it was known all over the WW that Voldemort had > been vanquished by Harry Potter. But according to canon, the > Longbottoms were attacked a long time (years) after Voldemort's > downfall. Geoff: Unless I've missed something, canon is rather vague about the timescale... '"The Longbottoms were very popular," said Dumbledor. "The attacks on them came after Voldemort's fall from power just when everyone thought they were safe.'" (GOF "The Pensieve" p.524 UK edition) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat May 22 21:21:56 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 21:21:56 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99118 wrote: > > Ummm, hate to disturb the Prank again, but we don't know what exactly went on in Sirius' head that night, we don't know whether he was happily planning to turn Snape over to werewolf, or scare him badly. < Pippin: By the same token, when Snape said he was going to turn Sirius over to the Dementors, and your little werewolf too, we don't know whether he was happily planning to do it, or scare them badly. Neri: Yet he acted extremely disappointed and furious when Sirius escaped his execution by the dementors. Was he putting a show? And if so, for whom? Fudge? Harry? From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat May 22 22:16:15 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 22:16:15 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99119 Neri originally wrote: > I'm not very interested in ESE theories, > because it is usually obvious they'll just won't happen. Kneasy answered: Obvious it won't happen? So what? What's that got to do with anything? 90% of the SHIPping theories won't happen either but that's never stopped the romantically inclined from indulging their fantasies. Neri now: But it is practically a surety that SOME ships will happen. So the question (which does interests me) is WHICH. OTOH I'll bet you anything that none of the main good characters, such as Lupin or Sirius (or Harry...), will turn out to be ESE. IMHO this should be pretty obvious to anybody who read the books in more levels than merely the plot level. Kneasy: The ESE!Harry scenario that I occasionally indulge in is based on the premise that Harry is involutarily ESE - *but doesn't yet realise it.* Neri: I think what you are suggesting is more GTE!Harry (Good Turns Evil) than ESE!Harry. This is indeed much easier plotwise. I'll grant there is a chance this might happen for a short time, just as another trial in the hero's journey, but we have only two out of seven books to go and much that still has to happen, so I don't think this specific episode will last very long, if at all. Kneasy: This is more intellectually challenging but also more logical. How many people class *themselves* as evil? Damn few. Usually that's the opinion of others - it's a title that is given rather than claimed. Do the Malfoys consider themselves evil, or Snape, or even Bella? I doubt it. Neri: Voldy proudly styles himself as the "Dark Lord", and his followers, such as Bella and the Malfoys, regard this as an honorific (Snape, as we all know, is a more complex case). Their mark is a skull with a snake coming out of its mouth. Why do you think they chose these specific symbols for themselves? Kneasy: They are just doing what they consider to be necessary to achieve their ends. I doubt too that they see their ends as evil - just perhaps a little selfish and very convenient for their dream life- styles. Neri: The question of relative moral in RL aside, the Potterverse DOES have a God, or rather a Goddess. Her name is Jo K Rowling and She seems to have very established opinions on the universality of Good and Evil. And as well she should, since she is obviously writing a novel in the celebrated genre of good-against-evil. It is of course your basic right to hijack the Potterverse and change it to your heart content. Fanfiction writers do it all the time. I sometime read them and sometimes it is even interesting, but I still find the original Potterverse much more interesting. Kneasy: I've been twiddling my thumbs waiting for the 'Temptation' - a classic plot device where the hero is seduced by, well, the Dark Side, if you like. Neri: I agree, and I personally believe this already happened. It was when Harry tried to use an Unforgivable curse on his friend's killer. The punishment for yielding to the temptation was immediate and appropriate: the Dark Lord possessed him. Sometimes you have to look fast to catch these things... Kneasy: Yes he fights Voldy, and why? Because Voldy is evil? Not really. He has two reasons - firstly because Voldy keeps attacking him and secondly because Voldy killed his parents. Both very *personal* reasons - philosophical convictions about good and evil are very low on the list. Neri: Murdering your parents because they were protecting you IS evil. Philosophical convictions are not needed to appreciate this. It is obvious to any 11 yrs old child. Kneasy: Yes, I know Draco tried to recruit him very early on, but what did Harry know then? Not much. Yet again it was a decision based on personal likes/dislikes. So much of what Harry does is based on the personal. Neri: I know this is your interpretation of this scene, but my interpretation is different. This is a classic scene, used (usually many times) in any good-against-evil novel, of the good hero instinctively recognizing evil and opposing it. A similar scene of choice is the sorting scene, when Harry refuses to go to Slytherin House. DD refers to it as The Choice that distinguished Harry from Tom, and DD is JKR's voice (the Goddess' prophet, if you will). In the mere level of the plot this choice of Harry was based on superficial impressions. In deeper levels this was a defining choice, based on the inherent ability of the good hero to recognize the path to evil and reject it. In the Potterverse this metaphoric ability may take the form of a magical device, such as the power behind the locked door. I apologize for the boring literature lecture. I almost never analyze it in such an intellectual way when I read the books. I just know it, as I think 95% of the readers do. Neri From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 22 22:21:16 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 22:21:16 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99120 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > wrote: > > > > > Ummm, hate to disturb the Prank again, but we don't know > what exactly went on in Sirius' head that night, we don't know > whether he was happily planning to turn Snape over to werewolf, > or scare him badly. < > > Pippin: > By the same token, when Snape said he was going to turn Sirius over to the Dementors, and your little werewolf too, we don't know whether he was happily planning to do it, or scare them badly. > > Neri: > Yet he acted extremely disappointed and furious when Sirius escaped his execution by the dementors. Was he putting a show? And if so, for whom? Fudge? Harry?< Pippin If I had turned in a terrorist whom I believed to be responsible for the death of someone who saved *my* life, only to see said terrorist escape, I'd be disappointed and furious myself. There was no show. At that point, Snape still believed that Sirius was guilty, and that Harry and Hermione were confunded. Snape was not present when Dumbledore sent Harry and Hermione to save Sirius. For all Snape knows, Dumbledore had concluded after talking to Harry and Hermione that Snape was right and they were indeed confunded. Pippin who is also willing to give Sirius the benefit of the doubt, even though he says it would have served Snape right if he'd been killed. From tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com Sat May 22 22:39:19 2004 From: tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com (tub_of_earwax) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 22:39:19 -0000 Subject: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" > wrote: > > Hickengruendler: > > I don't know where it was in the book, but I am sure that Sturgis' > > age was given. I haven't got the book to look right now, sadly. But > > it might have been during the article where it was stated that he > was > > arrested. But I know that I read his age somehwere in the books. > > Geoff: > 'Sturgis Podmore, 38, of number two Laburnham Gardens, Clapham, has > appeared in front of the Wizengamot charged with trepass and > attempted robbery at the Ministry of Magic on 31st August.' > > (OOTP "Percy and Padfoot" p.258 UK edition) > > So that settles Sturgis' age for us in the summer of 1995. So in 1979, Sturgis would be 38 - 16 = 22 According to the lexicon, James and Lilly were born in about 1960, if they didn't die, they'd be about 35 in 1995. In 1979 they'd be 19, 3 years younger than Sturgis. So this solidifies that he went to school with MWPP, Lilly and Snape. Interesting. Thanks :) *Lara*. From tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com Sat May 22 22:45:31 2004 From: tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com (tub_of_earwax) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 22:45:31 -0000 Subject: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: <20040522123617.5744.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99122 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > tub_of_earwax wrote: > > Sturgis Podmore: > Was Imperio'd when on guard, and sent to Azkaban. In the picture > Moody says he looks "really young". Now the Lexicon says he > was at > Hogwarts with Lucius, although about 5 years younger, but I don't > know where they got the info (I've searched). See thoughts later > on > in the post for more info on this. > STATUS: Still in the order (as far as we know) > > > > > > Is it my imagination, but wasn't the ghost who denied Nick from riding in the Headless Hunt a Podmore? (just a random thought) > > I like your reasoning on the picture. I cannot wait until the canon experts weigh in!! I learn so much from you guys!! > > Moonmyyst Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore. Indeed. No one knows whether there is a connection though. Knowing JKR, it's probably just a "coincidence". *Lara*. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 23:07:08 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 23:07:08 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99123 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" > wrote: > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Ummm, hate to disturb the Prank again, but we don't know > > what exactly went on in Sirius' head that night, we don't know > > whether he was happily planning to turn Snape over to > werewolf, > > or scare him badly. < > > > > Pippin: > > By the same token, when Snape said he was going to turn > Sirius over to the Dementors, and your little werewolf too, we > don't know whether he was happily planning to do it, or scare > them badly. > > > > Neri: > > Yet he acted extremely disappointed and furious when Sirius > escaped his execution by the dementors. Was he putting a > show? And if so, for whom? Fudge? Harry?< > > Pippin > If I had turned in a terrorist whom I believed to be responsible > for the death of someone who saved *my* life, only to see said > terrorist escape, I'd be disappointed and furious myself. > > There was no show. At that point, Snape still believed that Sirius > was guilty, and that Harry and Hermione were confunded. Snape > was not present when Dumbledore sent Harry and Hermione to > save Sirius. For all Snape knows, Dumbledore had concluded > after talking to Harry and Hermione that Snape was right and > they were indeed confunded. Pippin, I perfectly understand his feelings towards Sirius, if he indeed truly believed that Sirius betrayed Potters. No doubt about that. I am just not completely sure that Snape did not hear the whole story, while standing outside the Shack. I have to say that PoA is the book where I sympathised most strongly with Snape. I am not sure why. Probably because this is the only book, where Snape got caught with "carmic justice", so to speak. In the fictional reality the characters do not necessarily pay for their wrongdoings right away, but they usually pay one way or another. So, in PoA Snape gets humiliated in the boggart scene and Harry and Hermione save Sirius right under his nose. That was very satisfactory. When I was especially annoyed with Snape's behaviour in OoP, I sometimes pictured Snape in a dress. :o) The same way with Sirius. I consider him spending twelve years in Azkaban to be payment in full for whatever he did to Snape in school. > Pippin > who is also willing to give Sirius the benefit of the doubt, even > though he says it would have served Snape right if he'd been > killed. Alla, who would have been definitely upset with Sirius for saying that, if he said it while being in more stable mental condition and not right out of Azkaban. From rowen_lm at yahoo.com Sat May 22 23:24:42 2004 From: rowen_lm at yahoo.com (Liz Muir) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 23:24:42 -0000 Subject: Assyria and Wizardly Geography Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99124 Hello everyone. Long time lurker delurk-ing for a moment. <> Alright, in recently rereading OotP and again pondering the significance of Mimbulus mimbletonia, I came across this quote by Neville: " ... My great-uncle Algie got it for me in Assyria." (OotP, US Hardback, Ch. 10, pg. 186) As far as I can tell, most people discussing this quote have focused on the fact that the plant is from Neville's Uncle Algie. However, this time it struck me that the plant was from Assyria. Being a person severely lacking in what I assumed was Middle East geography, I pulled out several atlases (atli?) to look the country up. To my astonishment, I discovered the country doesn't exist anymore, but is a country from Biblical times controlled by Babylonia. (I found the most definitive and unbiased information at Wikipedia.) To me, the current non-existance of Assyria poses a large problem with many implications, including but not limited to "How did Uncle Algie manage to bring a plant back from a country that doesn't exist?" <> Some possibilities present themselves: a) Algie possesses a time turner or other means of time travel. Therefore, he traveled either backwards to ancient Assyria or forward to the future Assyria, which according to the Bible (or particular interpretations) will be established prior to the Second Coming. However, Neville's matter-of-fact way of talking about his uncle's trip makes this rather hard to believe. IIRC, time travel is very limited in the WW. In order to take such a large trip, Algie would need to either have a very important mission (probably for the Department of Mysteries or other MoM business) or be doing it illegally. In either case, he is not likely to mention it to Neville, or if he did, Neville would not be dropping information about it so easily. b) Assyria was used just to refer to that region, which is in modern day Iraq. This seems unlikely since using archaic names to refer to a region would certainly cause a lot of confusion. In addition, besides a possible mention in History of Magic class, I have little reason to believe Neville would really know about Assyria and use it in that context . . . . c) JKR is geographically challenged and just pulled Assyria out of a hat of place names she could use. Certainly possible, given I'm pretty sure she doesn't check her geographical facts to well (eg. mixing up King's Cross station with another station while writing). But I am hoping this isn't true, so moving on to what I consider the most mind-boggling, but likely, possibility . . . . d) Wizardly geography and geopolitical boundaries are completely separate from muggle boundaries. This last option leads to many problems in the series and a lot to work out with regards to the wizarding world. I'll need to look at all instances of geography in the books. However, before I delve into developing this theory, I'd like some feedback: Have I missed an obvious explanation for the presence of Assyria? Is there already a theory dealing with this, or one which is related to it? Any potential supportive information I may have missed? Replies are very much appreciated as is further development of this pre-theory. Rowen, who considered titling this post "What is the Capital of Assyria: A Foray into Wizardly Geography" in tribute to Monty Python, but decided that was much too long and assuming, much like this signature From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 23:25:09 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040522232509.57914.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99125 Potioncat wrote: Sirius said he'd never heard of Snape being a Death Eater and doubted DD would have hired him if he had been. On the other hand, he knew Karkaroff was a DE. That's why he told them to watch out for him. And, Snape never told Harry about Sirius or really even how bad James had been. Harry found that out himself. Potioncat My reply: He never told Harry about Sirius but he certainly said really horrible things about his father at ever point he could. Whether you think James is a jerk or not, which I don't really believe that he was, you never belittle a child about his dead father. That's just not right. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 23:35:10 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040522233510.2905.qmail@web50009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99126 Alla wrote:, who would have been definitely upset with Sirius for saying that, if he said it while being in more stable mental condition and not right out of Azkaban. My reply: I agree with you about that Alla. I think people give Snape the benefit of doubt all the time and give Sirius very little benefit. I personally believe that he regrets the way he treated Snape in school, but not all that much. There is obviously a lot more to their story, I just wish we would get to hear about it sometime. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 23:36:30 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 23:36:30 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: <20040522232509.57914.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99127 > Potioncat wrote previously: Sirius said he'd never heard of Snape being a Death Eater and doubted > DD would have hired him if he had been. On the other hand, he knew > Karkaroff was a DE. That's why he told them to watch out for him. > And, Snape never told Harry about Sirius or really even how bad James > had been. Harry found that out himself. > Potioncat Melanie wrote: He never told Harry about Sirius but he certainly said really horrible things about his father at ever point he could. Whether you think James is a jerk or not, which I don't really believe that he was, you never belittle a child about his dead father. That's just not right. > > ~Melanie > I don't usually have many positive things to say about Snape's treatment of Harry and I agree with Melanie - you don't belittle a child about his dead father, ever. But, when Snape was saying these horrible things in PoA, I felt the despair beyond the insults. I thought that Snape was upset by James and Lily death and did not want Harry to die. I don't know if I feel like that after OoP, though. Alla From lisa_croke at yahoo.com.au Sat May 22 14:56:19 2004 From: lisa_croke at yahoo.com.au (Lisa Croke) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 14:56:19 -0000 Subject: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: <20040522123617.5744.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99128 Moonmyyst wrote: > Is it my imagination, but wasn't the ghost who denied Nick from riding in the Headless Hunt a Podmore? (just a random thought) No, it wasn't your imagination at all. Page 95 of the UK edition of CoS, ending the letter to Nearly-Headless Nick about being rejected from the headless hunt:- "It is with the greatest regret, therefore, that I must inform you that you do not fulfil our requirements. With very best wishes, Sir Patrick Delaney-PODMORE." Personally, I prefer Nick's name for him. Sir Properly Decapitated- Podmore. lol. Lisa From sweetongoo at yahoo.com Sat May 22 14:58:03 2004 From: sweetongoo at yahoo.com (Ashley Hawkins) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 07:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's Grandmother In Danger? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040522145803.9988.qmail@web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99129 Louis Badalament wrote: A windfall, unexpected gold. Doesn't Harry wind up with a thousand galleons at the end of Goblet of Fire? And working for the Ministry... Harry's already shown an interest in becoming an Auror, who are, by nature, Ministry employees. Is this chapter hinting at more than it lets on? And can we infer, therefore, that something terrible might befall Neville's grandmother in one of the upcoming books, as Trelawney has warned? This is definitely an option, especially if Neville is supposed to pocess great powers. Neville's grandmother is the only living, (I might be wrong, I'm sorry if I am), relative that actually is quite sane. Although his grandmother can be quite annoying to him most of the time, she has all of his love. And if something happened to his grandmother I believe that would push him over the edge. (especially if it had something to do with LV). Now his true powers conquer over his clumsy behavior. Am I right? SweetOnGoo From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sat May 22 15:05:04 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 11:05:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67C6F529-AC01-11D8-96C7-000A95DC8A32@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99130 Pippin wrote: > Moody does not say that the picture showed everyone who was > in the Order at the time it was taken. It would be a security risk to > have all the members meet at one time. And perhaps someone > was taking the picture, as well. > We need to keep into account wizard photos are a bit odd too. After all, the people in them can move around or leave. Remember in CoS when Dumbledore left his photo on the Frog candy card. And Harry may not have seen the complete photo because he got upset when he saw his parents and left. Maybe if he had stayed he would have seen more people? Who knows? Anyway, I wouldn't conclude that the people that Harry sees in that photo are the only people who were in the first order either. Ivogun [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Sat May 22 18:36:43 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava Gordon) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 18:36:43 -0000 Subject: Gender differences and magic - ties to Bellatrix Lestrange & Lily Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99131 Ava Gordon wrote: > > On another forum, someone suggested that, all other things being > > equal, male wizards have greater endurance than female & therefore > > are likely to be better duelers. I've had a few days to mull this > > over, & am convinced this is wrong Wrong WRONG. Here's why. > > > > > Mandy here: > Who, and where, on earth did some idiot actually believe the idea > that men have better endurance than women? It is absolutely not > true. In fact it opposite is true, women have far more endurance and > stamina both physically and mentally than men do. A fact that has > been proven by science! > > Magic levels the playing field. It is why throughout history men > have always been terrified of witches. They are suddenly without the > ability to control women, and heaven forbid that would ever happen! That was exactly why the I found it an interesting matter to contemplate. The 'girls are better than boys' angle was somewhat facetious, of course, but I think the issue is lying there under the surface, not so much a question of girls vs. boys, but as in the case of comparing Bellatrix and Lily, as a matter of gender-related pwer. And yes, I agree, it is EXACTLY why witches have been feared throughout history. > Which forum came up with the conclusion above? I'd like to visit and > knock some sense and intelligence in to those idiots. > > Cheers Mandy, who is amazed that boys can sometimes be so insecure > about themselves they can't even except a women winning in fantasy, > let alone in real life. Oh, this was a woman, sad to say. And I won't reveal the forum - it's one I used to thoroughly enjoy and has, of late, sunk to rather pathetic depths. Perhaps this too shall pass. Ava From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Sat May 22 18:43:06 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava Gordon) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 18:43:06 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99132 Sylvia wrote: > > > > I just can't imagine Sirius turning innocent Snape over to the > death > > eaters.. > > > > This would be the same Sirius who happily turned him over to a > > werewolf!! > > Dumbledore11214 wrote: > > Ummm, hate to disturb the Prank again, but we don't know what exactly > went on in Sirius' head that night, we don't know whether he was > happily planning to turn Snape over to werewolf, or scare him badly. OK - either he was aware of the potential consequences, in which case his behavior was inexcusable, or he wasn't aware, in which case he was an idiot (even if only 15). And I don't think Sirius is an idiot. Of course, we have plenty of OotP evidence that he tends to ignore the practical consequences of his actions, but I can't see how that makes for a better alternative explanation for his actions. Ava From sarahmint at yahoo.com Sat May 22 19:53:14 2004 From: sarahmint at yahoo.com (sarahmint at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 19:53:14 -0000 Subject: Snape and Petunia, a couple? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99133 I was watching the first Harry Potter movie yesterday and I realized something. Keep in mind Joanne Rowling has an influence on the screenwriters of her movies. Aunt Petunia acts just like Snape. Could they have had an affair thirty years ago? (Seems like a soap opera doesn't it?) She did get a howler in the latest book (how did some of you guess that was going to happen?), and are still hiding things from Harry. Order of the Phoenix gave an introduction to the previous generation of Hogwarts students. Petunia and Lilly are flowers. Lilly seemed to care for Snape, but he rejected her. Could Petunia have taken advantage of Lilly's affections out of spite? Could Petunia have denied the wizarding world because she was born of wizard parents but did not have powers herself? By the way, Harry speaks Parseltounge, just like the original master of Slytherin house. Hogwarts is the breed of a flower, just like his parents. Do you know what I am hinting? From jferer at yahoo.com Sun May 23 01:31:06 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 01:31:06 -0000 Subject: Neville's Grandmother In Danger? In-Reply-To: <20040522145803.9988.qmail@web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99134 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ashley Hawkins wrote: > > Louis Badalament wrote: > > Is this chapter hinting at more than it lets on? And can we infer, > therefore, that something terrible might befall Neville's > grandmother in one of the upcoming books, as Trelawney has warned? > > SweetOnGoo: " This is definitely an option, especially if Neville is supposed to pocess great powers. Neville's grandmother is the only living, (I might be wrong, I'm sorry if I am), relative that actually is quite sane. Although his grandmother can be quite annoying to him most of the time, she has all of his love. And if something happened to his grandmother I believe that would push him over the edge. (especially if it had something to do with LV). Now his true powers conquer over his clumsy behavior. Am I right?" Anybody close to Harry and everybody close to them is in terrible danger. Voldemort, having failed in obtaining the Prophecy or discrediting Harry and Dumbledore, is going to lash out now. All of Harry's friends and their families will be targets. LV's going to go after Harry through his friends. I don't know if Neville will display new powers, but he will always be Voldemort's implacable enemy. This kid is serious. We've been told over and over that 99% of Trelawney's predictions aren't real, and the real ones have been easy to distinguish from her usual yada yada, so I don't take this one all that seriously. I mean, she's going to be right sometime by accident, but a real Prophecy? From tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com Sun May 23 01:29:16 2004 From: tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 21:29:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy ending? (was: Sirius' influence on Harry) References: <20040522053819.96566.qmail@web50008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99135 Melanie: > My reply: I still think it's going to end with Harry dying and going to the other world. Of course, it > will be happy because then Sirius can introduce him to his parents. That just makes me happy! I dearly hope this isn't the ending. I don't know whether there's going to be a happy or bittersweet ending, but I know there won't be a sad ending. To me, Harry's death foretells a sad ending. To be sure, you can put happy spin on the matter and say that it could be viewed as a happy ending. However, at the end of the books, Harry will be a boy on the cusp of adulthood. To me, happiness is knowing that he has the courage to face life in a post-Voldemort world. To paraphrase an old saying, it is easier to die than live but more happiness can be found in life if you're willing to face it. ~Ali From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 01:46:16 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 01:46:16 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99137 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ava Gordon" > wrote: > > Dumbledore11214 wrote previously : > > > > > > Ummm, hate to disturb the Prank again, but we don't know what > > exactly > > > went on in Sirius' head that night, we don't know whether he was > > > happily planning to turn Snape over to werewolf, or scare him > > badly. > > > Ava: > > OK - either he was aware of the potential consequences, in which > > case his behavior was inexcusable, or he wasn't aware, in which > case > > he was an idiot (even if only 15). And I don't think that Sirius was an idiot. > Of course, we have plenty of OotP evidence that he tends to > > ignore the practical consequences of his actions, but I can't see > > how that makes for a better alternative explanation for his actions. > > Alla: > Aware of which consequences? It is entirely possible that in his mind > the only possible consequence of Snape going to Shrieking Shack will > be him getting a huge scare. > > > How exactly does it make him an idiot? Not thinking through his > actions? - Absolutely. Idiot? I disagree with that. Maybe dojg an > diotic thing, yes. > > In our minds it is a given conclusion that werewolf eats people. > Sirius run with Remus on a monthly basis as a animagi. Who knows, > maybe Sirius suspected of Snape being one (I used to think of Vampire! > Snape, but now I think that one is almost dead) > > > Sirius does not think things through indeed (Not always, at least). > > How that makes for better explanation of his actions? Well, it is > entirely possible that Sirius got very angry at Snape and could not > come up with better revenge ( not attempted murder plan) except > telling him where Remus went every month. > > By the way, Snape was trying to find out about that for a long time > according to canon, so it is not like Sirius had to think much about > that one. > > And, as I said there are possible understandable reasons of why > Sirius got very angry at Snape. Possible recruitment of Regulus is > one of them. > > > Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 23 01:48:33 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 01:48:33 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99138 > Kneasy: > Yes, I know Draco tried to recruit him very early on, > but what did Harry know then? Not much. Yet again it was a decision > based on personal likes/dislikes. So much of what Harry does is based > on the personal. > > Neri: > I know this is your interpretation of this scene, but my > interpretation is different. This is a classic scene, used (usually > many times) in any good-against-evil novel, of the good hero > instinctively recognizing evil and opposing it. Harry instinctively recognizes evil? If this is supposed to be an instinct, it's a pretty weak one. Harry doesn't recognize Quirrell, Tom Riddle, Scabbers, or Fake!Moody as evil. He doesn't even recognize when Voldemort is putting lies into his head. Besides, if Harry has the inherent ability to recognize and reject the path of evil, then why should we care that he chose Gryffindor? He should have gone into Slytherin and led all the other Slythies back to the light. And how can I sympathize with all those poor Potterverse people agonizing over their choices, if all they have to do is whatever Harry feels is right? IMO, the major theme of the books is that people, including readers, should not trust their subjective sense of good and evil very far. Pace Star Wars, you really shouldn't trust your feelings--even Dumbledore cannot. To paraphrase OOP, he should have known he was doing the wrong thing because he felt so good about it. I think JKR has made a great leap forward in good-vs-evil novels. She has dared to make the good side morally complex. Unlike Tolkien or Star Wars, everyone in the Potterverse does not draw the line between good and evil in the same place. The characters may not draw the line where Dumbledore would, but, JKR seems to be saying, as long as they draw it somewhere, and refuse to cross it, Dumbledore is on their side. Pippin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun May 23 01:53:30 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 01:53:30 -0000 Subject: Assyria and Wizardly Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz Muir" wrote: > > > ... pondering the significance of Mimbulus mimbletonia, I came > across this quote by Neville: " ... My great-uncle Algie got it for > me in Assyria." (OotP, US Hardback, Ch. 10, pg. 186) > > ... it struck me that the plant was from Assyria. ... I > (...tried...) to look the country up. > > To my astonishment, I discovered the country doesn't exist anymore, > but is a country from Biblical times controlled by Babylonia. .... > > Some possibilities present themselves: > a) Algie possesses a time turner or other means of time travel. > ...edited... > > b) Assyria was used just to refer to that region, which is in modern > day Iraq. ...edited... > > c) JKR is geographically challenged and just pulled Assyria out of a > hat of place names she could use. ...edited... > > d) Wizardly geography and geopolitical boundaries are completely > separate from muggle boundaries. > > This last option leads to many problems in the series and a lot to > work out with regards to the wizarding world. ... Have I missed > an obvious explanation for the presence of Assyria? ...edited... > > Replies are very much appreciated as is further development of this > pre-theory. > > Rowen, bboy_mn: You know, I always thought it would be cool to go to Czechoslovakia. I hear the make really great beer there. There is just one problem; it doesn't exist, at least not any more. Despite the fact that I would have to go to the Czech Republic, if I told someone I was traveling to Prague, I would probably still say I was going to Czechoslovakia becuase that's how it's been designated on maps for my whole life. How about Siam? People still go to Siam. The people who live there still hold on to their culture. I'm sure that some old people still refer to it as Siam. But the people who live there decide to change their name to 'land that is alway free' or as we know it-Thailand. Up until 1871, there was a country in Northern (what we call) Germany called Prussia (Blend of Russia, Poland, and Germany). They had a unigue language and culture. The local dialet in that area is still so strong that many mainstream Germans can't understand them. I'm sure people who are descended from Prussians still maintain some hold to their historical geographical culture. Despite the fact the it doesn't exist in the Geo-Political sense, it still exist in the Geo-Sociological sense. Take the Gypsies of Romania; unless I'm mistaken, their country vanished when politicians redrew the country boundaries in that region. The Gypsies were left with out a country, yet they still found themselves tied to a unique identity and to the land where they lived. My point is that Assyria may not exist from a Geo-political perspective, but the land and the people are still there, and they still feel their ties to their cultural history. In that same sense, while today we have people who are Persians, we no longer have a Persia. So, my vote is for (b.), this is a reference to a cultural region of the middle east, not to a geo-political region. I also give some weight to option (d), I don't think wizards and witches recognise the same geo-political boundaries as muggles do. Recently, we were talking about Quidditch teams, and came to the general conclusion that the wizard world doesn't recognise Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland; it's all Ireland to them. The Republic vs Northern was founded in religious and political strife that the wizard world wasn't part of. For what it's worth... bboy_mn From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sun May 23 01:57:33 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 01:57:33 -0000 Subject: Assyria and Wizardly Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99140 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Maybe JKR was assuming nobody would look up stuff like that. If she had said "Iraq", a lot of people would be too distracted wondering what she meant by it to absorb the story. Victorian English travelers were notorious for wandering around political hotspots infallibly armored by obliviousness; the WW does seem to have the sensibilities of an earlier century. And as for confusion, come to my city sometime and ask for directions to Rockefeller Center. The street signs have said "Avenue of the Americas" since shortly after Assyria became Iraq, but no New Yorker ever calls it that. Even typing the offending phrase makes me feel like a traitor to my homeland... --JDR From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun May 23 02:28:13 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 02:28:13 -0000 Subject: Assyria and Wizardly Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99141 Rowen wrote: Alright, in recently rereading OotP and again pondering the significance of Mimbulus mimbletonia, I came across this quote by Neville: " ... My great-uncle Algie got it for me in Assyria." (OotP, US Hardback, Ch. 10, pg. 186) However, before I delve into developing this theory, I'd like some feedback Neri: I'd like to see a research on Wizard geography. Don't miss QttA, FbaWtFT and the Lexicon. However, regarding this specific Assyria, I think it was simply meant to go well with Mimbulus mimbletonia. That is, a weird plant with a name that practically means something- undecipherable-but-vaguely-latin-like should just come from a-land- that's-not-on-the-map-but-sounds-vaguely-biblical. From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Sat May 22 18:06:50 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 18:06:50 -0000 Subject: Happy ending? (was: Sirius' influence on Harry) In-Reply-To: <20040522053819.96566.qmail@web50008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99142 Melanie: > My reply: I still think it's going to end with Harry dying and going to the other world. Of course, it will be happy because then Sirius can introduce him to his parents. That just makes me happy! > I've thought this before too, but at the end of OoP I saw a different theme emerging. When Sirius died, Harry went into denial; he refused to believe it at first. Then he was possessed by Voldemort, and his thoughts were "Dumbledore, just kill me; then I can see Sirius again." Finally, at the very end, he found his mirror, and he was convinced he was still going to be able to talk to Sirius in it, but alas, he could not. In the end, he was forced to accept that Sirius was really, truly gone. (I apologize for not giving page or chapter cites; I am in the process of moving and my books are still packed.) My point in all of this is that this has been part of Harry's development throughout the series. He had to accept that he could not bring his parents back by seeing them in the Mirror of Erised, and now he's had to accept the fact that Sirius has gone. Learning to deal with the loss of his loved ones has been a major part of Harry's development as a character, and having taken him so far down that path, I doubt JKR is going to end the series by killing him and reuniting him with them. I think it more likely that Harry will lose more of those he cares about, and the lesson learned is that losing loved ones is a part of life, and he has to go on living. --Cory From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 03:02:20 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 03:02:20 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99143 Pippin: who is also willing to give Sirius the benefit of the doubt, even though he says it would have served Snape right if he'd been killed. Snow- going off a bit on Sirius' benefit of the doubt: There are always two sides to a story and we really don't know the whole story behind why that joke occurred and why Sirius said it would have served Snape right. We were only given a one-sided view of that whole scenario. What did Snape do to provoke such a response from Sirius? He must have done something to one of Sirius' friends, most likely James, for Sirius to have said it would have served him right. Served him right for what! I don't think we have been allowed to know that whole scene anymore than the scenes in the pencieve in Snape's office. You can defiantly misinterpret if you don't have all the facts. Like Harry feeling sorry for Snape because he was viewing what he saw from Snape's view of "his" worst memory. To bad there wasn't a pencieve thought from James' point of view so you could have seen the other side of the coin. Harry does ask Sirius and, if Harry was listening, was told that Snape never missed an opportunity to curse James. What are some of the things that Snape did to James? It's just a bit one-sided here. We are allowed to see what has happened to Snape but not some of the things that Snape obviously did to James. How can you form a healthy decision based on half the fact. We do know that at some point Snape did become a death eater and knew way too much about the dark arts. This fact seemed to be dismissed by Harry when he felt bad for the way in which his father treated Snape and for that matter what Snape called his mother. You know that person (Lily) that only saved his life. Harry knew that Hermione was called the same dirty word by Draco, and yet Harry dismissed this in the pencieve scene and felt bad for Snape. I personally don't even understand how Harry could be sympathetic to a person (Snape) who just called his mother a mudblood. Just for this fact, I would have appreciated what my father had done to Snape if I were Harry. Snow-aka Kathy King From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 23 03:10:41 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 03:10:41 -0000 Subject: Assyria and Wizardly Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99144 > Rowen wrote: > > Alright, in recently rereading OotP and again pondering the > significance of Mimbulus mimbletonia, I came across this quote by > Neville: " ... My great-uncle Algie got it for me in Assyria." (OotP, > US Hardback, Ch. 10, pg. 186) > > However, before I delve > into developing this theory, I'd like some feedback > > Neri: However, regarding this specific Assyria, I > think it was simply meant to go well with Mimbulus mimbletonia. That > is, a weird plant with a name that practically means something- > undecipherable-but-vaguely-latin-like should just come from a-land- > that's-not-on-the-map-but-sounds-vaguely-biblical. Potioncat I did snip here and there...honest! Back when we were all wondering what sort of name "Karkaroff" is and what it might mean, someone found an Assyrian town or person with a similar name. It was Biblical and had to do with a battle. Someone more adept than me would have to find it though, if anyone is interested. Any way, it adds to the Assyria connection. And I vote with the others who think "Assyria" is how the WW still refers to an area. Given how long wizards live, I would think old names would be very slow to die out. Potioncat From nakedkali at yahoo.com Sun May 23 03:12:25 2004 From: nakedkali at yahoo.com (Sea Change) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 03:12:25 -0000 Subject: Assyrians still exist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99145 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Rowen wrote: > > Alright, in recently rereading OotP and again pondering the > significance of Mimbulus mimbletonia, I came across this quote by > Neville: " ... My great-uncle Algie got it for me in Assyria." (OotP, > US Hardback, Ch. 10, pg. 186) > > However, before I delve > into developing this theory, I'd like some feedback > > Neri: > I'd like to see a research on Wizard geography. Don't miss QttA, > FbaWtFT and the Lexicon. However, regarding this specific Assyria, I > think it was simply meant to go well with Mimbulus mimbletonia. That > is, a weird plant with a name that practically means something- > undecipherable-but-vaguely-latin-like should just come from a-land- > that's-not-on-the-map-but-sounds-vaguely-biblical. Sea Change replies: Perhaps Uncle Algie is more progressive than we think. In real life, smack dab in the center of California is a city called Ceres, and a decently large proportion of the people living there call themselves Assyrian. They think they've still got a homeland and are probably interested in the current events in Iraq. It's not much of a stretch for me to suppose in the Wizarding world this feeling is much stronger. It's also possible that Uncle Algie is a Great Uncle Algie, and was around pre-WW1. Many muslim empires had semi-autonomous regions with names that we either recognize, or which were called by that name by our diplomats. The Mimbulus Mimbletonia Neville has could just be a cutting or a meristem of the original plant. Sea Change, who unfortunately doesn't get on all that well with anyone assyrian, but knows an acquaintance or two From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Sun May 23 03:24:05 2004 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 03:24:05 -0000 Subject: Hermione as Harry's Anima (Was: Clues for SHIPS) In-Reply-To: <00cb01c43efd$35762640$9ea31a40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99146 Erika: > First I'd like to say congratulations on managing such a concise and accessible summary of archetypes and the anima and offering some really intriguing analysis of the text. Now me: Thanks Erika! Your input was extremely thought provoking and very thorough. I thought I would respond to a couple of your points here, because I found them extremely interesting. Erika: > Ginny in CoS certainly is cast in the role of maiden (think damsel in distress). "The maiden's helplessness exposes her to all sorts of dangers, for instance of being devoured by reptiles or ritually slaughtered like a beast of sacrifice. Often there are bloody, cruel, and even obscene orgies to which the innocent child falls victim." (_The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious_ para 311) Sound familiar at all? Ginny's innocence makes her vulnerable to diary!Tom, which eventually leads to her being taken down into the Chamber, guarded of course by the Basilisk, where she becomes a quasi-sacrifice to diary!Tom. This process, I would argue, does represent a sort of loss of innocence for Ginny; she is more-or-less seduced by diary!Tom and the result is a gross mental/ emotional violation. There's a certain parallel to Persephone who is raped by Hades and taken to the underworld to be his bride. Me: I think this is an extremely important observation because Ginny, at least in this CoS scene, certainly does represent the archetypal young feminine. My feeling here is that this imagery is linked to Hogwarts, not Harry (which is why I make the argument for Hermione as Harry's anima). Hogwarts is in danger and Ginny, as the archetypal young feminine/ maiden is pulled down into the underworld. (I like the Persephone link here... well spotted). Harry must save Hogwarts and this is represented thematically by saving Ginny. I believe in this context Ginny and Hogwarts are linked. The damsel in distress is, if you like, actually Hogwarts... ;) Erika: > On the other hand, though Ginny takes clearly takes on the role of maiden in CoS, particularly of the damsel in distress variety, Hermione has as well. After all, Harry first becomes friends with Hermione thanks to the incident with the troll in which, for a brief time, she too becomes a damsel in distress. Me: I think in the early books the role of anima is more scattered. For example, McGonnagal could be said to fulfill this role early in PS when she leads Harry to the position of seeker of the Gryffindor quidditch team. Only later does it become more focused in Hermione. Erika: > I found the argument to be very interesting. I wanted to add a couple of ideas that I found while reading. > > "In the products of unconscious activity, the anima appears equally ad maiden and mother" > > "the anima is bipolar and can therefore appear positive one moment and negative the next; now young, now old, now mother, now maiden; now a good fairy, now a witch; now a saint, now a whore." > > (_Archetypes _ para 356) > > I thought this suggestion of the dual aspect of the anima was quite interesting in relation to Hermione as it oftentimes seems to me that she does have a very dualistic role in Harry's life. As I suggested earlier, she does take on the role of maiden, but is also at times the mother-hen. She can be regarded at one moment as a faithful helper to Harry and at the next, as an overprotective or nagging nuisance. Even the saint/whore dichotomy appears in GoF thanks to Rita Skeeter's articles where Hermione is portrayed first as Harry's loving girlfriend, and later as the treacherous scarlet woman. > > Here's another bit which I found amusing, though I'm likely taking it out of context: > > "Whenever she [the anima] emerges with some degree of clarity, she always has a peculiar relationship to time: as a rule she is more or less immortal, because outside of time. [...] In all these accounts, the anima is outside of time as we know it and consequently immensely old or a being who belongs to a different order of things." (_Archetypes _ para 356) > > While I realize that Hermione doesn't really correspond with the types of female figures described above, ones who exist outside of time (would Dante's Beatrice qualify as such a figure perhaps?), I still found it amusing as we do see Hermione having "a peculiar relationship to time" in PoA thanks to her use of the time turner. Maybe not the most useful observation, but I got a kick out so it so I thought I'd throw it in. Me: These are excellent observations Erika and ones I had not thought of. :) Erika: > I have to say that it is a bit tricky trying to make actual predictions based on a psychoanalytical approach to the text. If nothing else, Jungian interpretation is really meant to analyse dreams as well as myths and fairy tales, all of which are far more connected to the collective unconscious. Though unconscious elements work their way into the novels, it remains that they are a conscious creation and thus are subject to conscious intent far more than dreams. Then there's the further complication of the fact that, though we're dealing with a male protagonist, he is the creation of a female writer. This has interesting implications in terms of how we perceive Harry as a male ego figure. Actually, there's an article by Ximena Gallardo-C and C. Jason Smith which makes some interesting observation regarding gendering in the HP novels ("Cindefella: J.K. Rowling's Wily Web of Gender" from _Reading Harry Potter: Critical Essays_ ed Giselle Liza Anatol) > > All this to say that think I'll forego drawing specific conclusions from the varied observations I've made. Hope some bit of that was useful. > Me: It was very useful, thanks! I agree that predictions made via analytical means like this need to be taken with a pinch of salt. I make my prediction of the implications this has for Harry and Hermione's relationship within that context. If we view the series seperately from it's potential to be analysed as JKR's internal mythology (which is an entirely different matter and one that would be fascinating to explore), then the development of the archetypal images within the myth can provide us with clues in my opinion. Within the hero's journey or the journey towards internal self-realisation, the integration of feminine and masculine to form a whole is an important and common step. It is within this context that I hypothesise that Hermione (as Harry's anima) will be important. A kind of symbolic yin and yang. However, I would be interested in reading the essay you refer to. Does it perhaps touch upon Harry as being potentially a representation of JKR's animus? I would also have to say here that while the HP series is a conscious creation, so too was the ancient mythology of the world. It's connection to the collective unconscious is something that was identified after the fact almost (if that makes any sense at all). In fact, at the time that the myths and legends of the ancient world were being consciously developed as a way of understanding and telling stories about the world around them, the ancients weren't even awar that there was such a thing. :) Thanks so much Erika for taking the time to respond in such a well-researched and thoughtful manner. I very much appreciate it. Sienna From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Sun May 23 03:25:34 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 22:25:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Petunia, a couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99147 sarahmint at yahoo.com said: Aunt Petunia acts just like Snape. Could they have had an affair thirty years ago? (Seems like a soap opera doesn't it?) Lady Macbeth replied: I don't know about an affair thirty years ago, but I'm a fan of them as a couple. ~_^ I've done a couple of fan art pieces and am writing them as a couple in one of my Harry Potter fan fics. As far as I know, however, there's not a big liking for the couple. ^_^; -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop, from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 23 03:27:24 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 03:27:24 -0000 Subject: Assyrians still exist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99148 > Sea Change replies: > > It's also possible that Uncle Algie is a Great Uncle Algie, and was > around pre-WW1. Many muslim empires had semi-autonomous regions with > names that we either recognize, or which were called by that name by > our diplomats. The Mimbulus Mimbletonia Neville has could just be a > cutting or a meristem of the original plant. Potioncat: I really like the idea that Uncle Algie is Great Uncle Algie. We haven't seen much evidence of older relatives, but this would fit perfectly. He doesn't sound like he would be a brother to either of Neville's parents, but he could be Gran's brother or Grandfather Longbottom's brother. (To contradict myself, I can see Gred or Forge dropping one of Ron's kids out the window to see if he bounces!) Potioncat From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 03:30:01 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 03:30:01 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99149 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > Snow- going off a bit on Sirius' benefit of the doubt: > There are always two sides to a story and we really don't know the > whole story behind why that joke occurred and why Sirius said it > would have served Snape right. We were only given a one-sided view of > that whole scenario. What did Snape do to provoke such a response > from Sirius? He must have done something to one of Sirius' friends, > most likely James, for Sirius to have said it would have served him > right. Served him right for what! Absolutely, that is what I had been saying all along. I don't think we know enough yet. To be fair, I don't think that Snape deserved to be sent to Lupin under any circumstances (Unless he tried to kill anybody Sirius cared about), but I definitely think that there are thinngs Severus could have done that made Sirius irrationally angry and not thinking through of what could have been at all. > I don't think we have been allowed to know that whole scene anymore > than the scenes in the pencieve in Snape's office. You can defiantly > misinterpret if you don't have all the facts. Like Harry feeling > sorry for Snape because he was viewing what he saw from Snape's view > of "his" worst memory. To bad there wasn't a pencieve thought from > James' point of view so you could have seen the other side of the > coin. Harry does ask Sirius and, if Harry was listening, was told > that Snape never missed an opportunity to curse James. What are some > of the things that Snape did to James? It's just a bit one-sided > here. We are allowed to see what has happened to Snape but not some > of the things that Snape obviously did to James. How can you form a > healthy decision based on half the fact. We do know that at some > point Snape did become a death eater and knew way too much about the > dark arts. This fact seemed to be dismissed by Harry when he felt bad > for the way in which his father treated Snape and for that matter > what Snape called his mother. You know that person (Lily) that only > saved his life. Harry knew that Hermione was called the same dirty > word by Draco, and yet Harry dismissed this in the pencieve scene and > felt bad for Snape. I personally don't even understand how Harry > could be sympathetic to a person (Snape) who just called his mother a > mudblood. Just for this fact, I would have appreciated what my father > had done to Snape if I were Harry. > > Snow-aka Kathy King Hmmm. I do think that there are more revelations coming which will show that Snape was just as horrible to Maraduers at school as they were to him. I also think that there was a reason of why Maraduers disliked Snape and vice versa. BUT regardless of that I definitely felt bad for Snape in the Pensieve scene. If Pensieve records memories objectively, this was bad, very bad. Does not mean that I will condemn Marauders as adults because of that, though. I know people interpreted James' "it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean" (ooP, p.647) as a statement of someone who just hates his adversary for no reason at all, but I think that it hints at something. I wish I could know what. The obvious speculation will be Snape's having feelings for Lily, I guess. I wanted to strangle him, when he called Lily "mudblood" (that word , sounding differently, brings very unpleasant memories). But I understand that it was humiliating for him to be saved by a girl, whom he liked. So, while still hating it, I can forgive that under that circumstances, I suppose. I also don't think there was anything wrong with Harry feeling sorry for Snape, even if Pensieve did not show the complete picture and Harry's dad was less guilty than Harry thought. It just shows that fifteen years old is capable of showing more empathy than his professor, who is in his midthirties, but so quick to rush to judgment about Harry's feelings about Pensieve scene. Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 23 03:37:51 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 03:37:51 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99150 Snow: This fact seemed to be dismissed by Harry when he felt bad for the way in which his father treated Snape and for that matter what Snape called his mother. You know that person (Lily) that only saved his life. Harry knew that Hermione was called the same dirty word by Draco, and yet Harry dismissed this in the pencieve scene and felt bad for Snape. I personally don't even understand how Harry could be sympathetic to a person (Snape) who just called his mother a mudblood. Just for this fact, I would have appreciated what my father had done to Snape if I were Harry.< Harry agrees with Lily that James was just as offensive to her as Snape was. Dehumanizing someone on account of sex is just as bad as dehumanizing on account of race, IMO. James was behaving rudely whether he used rude language or not. Pippin From dk59us at yahoo.com Sun May 23 04:16:10 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 04:16:10 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99151 Naama; > > For your theory to be correct, we must assume that the Longbottoms > > were attacked almost immediately after the Potters' death, since > > within a day or two it was known all over the WW that Voldemort had > > been vanquished by Harry Potter. But according to canon, the > > Longbottoms were attacked a long time (years) after Voldemort's > > downfall. > Geoff: > Unless I've missed something, canon is rather vague about the > timescale... > > '"The Longbottoms were very popular," said Dumbledor. "The attacks on > them came after Voldemort's fall from power just when everyone > thought they were safe.'" > > (GOF "The Pensieve" p.524 UK edition) Eustace_Scrubb again: It does seem that the most common interpretation of canon is that the attack came some months after Godric's Hollow. But I agree with Geoff that Dumbledore's statement to Harry in GOF doesn't necessarily mean that, especially in light of the reaction of the WW immediately after Voldemort's disappearance as noted in Chapter 1 of SS/PS. As I've noted earlier in this thread, though McGonagall felt caution was in order, clearly the average wizard/witch on the street "thought they were safe" then, as they celebrated with fireworks and even revealed their feelings to muggles like Vernon Dursley. And even Dumbledore felt moved to join the celebrations after leaving Harry on Privet Drive. Again, I absolutely realize the common interpretation may well be right; I just don't see canon that rules out my interpretation...so far. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From rowen_lm at yahoo.com Sun May 23 04:41:42 2004 From: rowen_lm at yahoo.com (Liz Muir) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 04:41:42 -0000 Subject: Assyria and Wizardly Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99152 ---------Message 1-------- bboy_mn wrote: >You know, I always thought it would be cool to go to Czechoslovakia. I >hear the make really great beer there. There is just one problem; it >doesn't exist, at least not any more. Despite the fact that I would >have to go to the Czech Republic, if I told someone I was traveling to >Prague, I would probably still say I was going to Czechoslovakia >becuase that's how it's been designated on maps for my whole life. First of all, this development is not even pre-Cold War. The name and boundary change occurred 1 January 1993, when it split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia, due to the two nationalities present in the country. As a matter of fact, Czechoslovakia didn't even exist before WWI, during which it won it's independence from Austria- Hungary. So, following your logic, do you think anyone would understand me if I said I was going to the Dual Monarchy? Though it was an extremely common nickname before WWI, I doubt anyone would acknowledge it today. Czechoslovakia is such a recent development in history that it couldn't possibly be an accurate comparison to an name/boundary change which occurred in the fairly early AD (or CE, if you are feeling PC). It takes about 100 years for collective consciousness to render a name obscure and useless (except in trivia games and specialist studies). Although most people would understand what I meant by Czechoslovakia, only those with a good knowledge of history would understand if I went to Austria-Hungary. I say the percentage would continue to decline as I go further back. Assyria wouldn't even be recognizable if it didn't have such a prominent place in the Bible. (A more extreme example of this would be that a good number of people would know what I meant by Babylon, due to its prominence as a symbol and country in the Bible, even though it is almost as old as Assyria. But Assyria is not symbolic in exactly the same way, although it is a possibility that JKR is being symbolic . . .) >How about Siam? People still go to Siam. The people who live there >still hold on to their culture. I'm sure that some old people still >refer to it as Siam. But the people who live there decide to change >their name to 'land that is alway free' or as we know it-Thailand. I'm sure they do, since the change was only made in 1949. Unless you know St. John the Divine (the only person I know of who MIGHT be around from when Assyria existed), I don't expect this could apply to Assyria at all. People also may recognize Siam from references in common terms, such as Siamese twins, in the same way they recognize Babylon, but Assyria does not fall under this case. (And BTW, what does holding on to culture have to do with anything? Culture, I believe, doesn't fall under a specific name, but is a name-surpassing set of traditions.) >Up until 1871, there was a country in Northern (what we call) Germany >called Prussia (Blend of Russia, Poland, and Germany). They had a >unigue language and culture. The local dialet in that area is still so >strong that many mainstream Germans can't understand them. I'm sure >people who are descended from Prussians still maintain some hold to >their historical geographical culture. Despite the fact the it doesn't >exist in the Geo-Political sense, it still exist in the >Geo-Sociological sense. You might be surprised to find that I have actually heard of Prussia. I paid attention during this high school history class. I'm actually descended from many people who lived in Prussia (from with my maternal grandfather gets the name Miller, or Millius). I have a chart in my house if you'd like to see it. I'm actually quite far in tracing my genealogy, back to the 1500's. If my history class serves me right, culture in Prussia is mostly just the common German culture which it shared with various other German states, which had formerly existed together as the Holy Roman Empire from about 843 to 1803 and were still semi-associated via a weak central government called the German Confederation until Bismark unified the country prior to WWI. Having spent almost a millennium speaking the same language under the same government, all these states have fairly similar culture. With this example you come a little closer to a valid comparison with Assyria, but remember that Assyria was dissolved in 586 AD or earlier, before the HRE or Prussia were even close to formation. Although it's still much too recent to compare, but people wouldn't recognize it if I said I brought this back from Prussia, now would they? >Take the Gypsies of Romania; unless I'm mistaken, their country >vanished when politicians redrew the country boundaries in that >region. The Gypsies were left with out a country, yet they still found >themselves tied to a unique identity and to the land where they lived. I believe you refer to the Roma, who live throughout Europe and not just in Romania. The Roma never actually had an organized country, so it doesn't really compare to the powerful empire of Assyria. Also, the Roma, who hate being called Gypsies, aren't even one distinct culture but several. Saying the Roma have the same culture is like saying Europeans have the same culture. Partially true, but not very correct. No one would understand if I brought a plant back from a trip to "Roma." >My point is that Assyria may not exist from a Geo-political >perspective, but the land and the people are still there, and they >still feel their ties to their cultural history. In that same sense, >while today we have people who are Persians, we no longer have a Persia. The same relationship to Assyria seems unlikely to me. Persia was, in the first place, not the correct name for the country, but a mistake made by western diplomats. Again, the `change' in names (1935) is too recent to compare. If we assumed this kind of relationship with ancient countries by current people, Germans would call themselves citizens of the Holy Roman Empire (or some earlier version) and I'm sure the English would insist on being called Anglo- Saxon. Such a connection only exists when the ancient version continued into recent times and as part of a cultural reclamation (eg, as far as I understand, the Scots, the Celts, Castillians and other examples). >So, my vote is for (b.), this is a reference to a cultural region of >the middle east, not to a geo-political region. Which I completely disagree with, as pointed out in the preceding paragraphs. There is no comparable precedent, at least that anyone has cared to site, and no reason for Neville to speak in that way in the first place. >I also give some weight to option (d), I don't think wizards and >witches recognise the same geo-political boundaries as muggles do. >Recently, we were talking about Quidditch teams, and came to the >general conclusion that the wizard world doesn't recognise Republic of >Ireland and Northern Ireland; it's all Ireland to them. The Republic >vs Northern was founded in religious and political strife that the >wizard world wasn't part of. This was more of the kind of discussion I was looking for! I have looked up said posts, but would have appreciated it if you had focused more on this than the many invalid examples above. In summary: I find no similar case for referring to the region as Assyria, but do find the Quidditch World Cup posts interesting. Rowen, who is sorry if she insults anyone because she is in a bad mood as she writes From rowen_lm at yahoo.com Sun May 23 04:48:52 2004 From: rowen_lm at yahoo.com (Liz Muir) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 04:48:52 -0000 Subject: Assyria and Wizardly Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99153 Replies to two messages in this one, so stay tuned. The Sergeant Majorette wrote: >Maybe JKR was assuming nobody would look up stuff like that. If she >had said "Iraq", a lot of people would be too distracted wondering >what she meant by it to absorb the story. Now this is an interesting and valid point. JKR does tend to avoid anything too controversially modern in the WW. With the current war in Iraq and the controversy surrounding it, she may have not wanted to mention it. This could lead to a whole other discussion of the medieval character of the wizarding world. I won't go into that now, since I need to stew on it a bit, but you have given me a very important point to cover. >Victorian English travelers were notorious for wandering around >political hotspots infallibly armored by obliviousness; the WW does >seem to have the sensibilities of an earlier century. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this statement, though it sounds interesting. Can you elaborate for me? >And as for confusion, come to my city sometime and ask for directions >to Rockefeller Center. The street signs have said "Avenue of the >Americas" since shortly after Assyria became Iraq, but no New Yorker >ever calls it that. Even typing the offending phrase makes me feel >like a traitor to my homeland... Although I doubt it could literally be `shortly after,' since there was no New York in 586 AD, I get the point. The stigma of using the term "Iraq" in a book is interesting in this day and age. Just saying the name brings up a whole controversial image. But it does still seem a weak justification for the term. Why not just pick a non-controversial location? Perhaps India (I know there still is some controversy, but not as large) or Egypt. Did it have to be this geographical location? If it didn't have to, that invalidates the "Iraq" issue. If it did, why is that region particularly important to this plant? Another reason against this arguement: "Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself," yes? Neri wrote: >I'd like to see a research on Wizard geography. Don't miss QttA, >FbaWtFT and the Lexicon. Yes, I've already checked the Lexicon, but have so far found very little pertinent information. Anything specific? As for QttA and FB, it wouldn't be a researched essay without them! >However, regarding this specific Assyria, I >think it was simply meant to go well with Mimbulus mimbletonia. That >is, a weird plant with a name that practically means something- >undecipherable-but-vaguely-latin-like should just come from a-land- >that's-not-on-the-map-but-sounds-vaguely-biblical. Hmmm, interesting theory, but I wouldn't be truly obsessive if I let JKR get off with that excuse, now would I? Rowen From rowen_lm at yahoo.com Sun May 23 04:57:44 2004 From: rowen_lm at yahoo.com (Liz Muir) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 04:57:44 -0000 Subject: Assyrians still exist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99154 Sea Change replied: > Perhaps Uncle Algie is more progressive than we think. In real life, > smack dab in the center of California is a city called Ceres, and a > decently large proportion of the people living there call themselves > Assyrian. They think they've still got a homeland and are probably > interested in the current events in Iraq. It's not much of a stretch > for me to suppose in the Wizarding world this feeling is much stronger. Sounds interesting and pertinant. It brings up a lot of questions for me. Can I find any information about this on the net somewhere? > It's also possible that Uncle Algie is a Great Uncle Algie, and was > around pre-WW1. Many muslim empires had semi-autonomous regions with > names that we either recognize, or which were called by that name by > our diplomats. The Mimbulus Mimbletonia Neville has could just be a > cutting or a meristem of the original plant. I've run into the problem of Europeans not knowning proper Middle Eastern names before WWI as well. Got any specific instances I could use, or do I need to do the searching? As for the plant being a cutting, the way Neville phrases it makes it sound fairly recent, as in over the summer. Algie brought it specifically for him (implied: because of his aptitude for herbology). You don't usually bring someone a gift from a trip and not give it to them for years. If it were a cutting, Neville might have said, "My Uncle Algie gave it to me. It's part of a plant he got on a trip to Assyria." Slightly different meaning there. Rowen From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sun May 23 05:33:48 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 05:33:48 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Harry instinctively recognizes evil? If this is supposed to be an > instinct, it's a pretty weak one. Harry doesn't recognize Quirrell, > Tom Riddle, Scabbers, or Fake!Moody as evil. He doesn't even > recognize when Voldemort is putting lies into his head. > > Besides, if Harry has the inherent ability to recognize and reject > the path of evil, then why should we care that he chose > Gryffindor? He should have gone into Slytherin and led all the > other Slythies back to the light. And how can I sympathize with all > those poor Potterverse people agonizing over their choices, if all > they have to do is whatever Harry feels is right? > > IMO, the major theme of the books is that people, including > readers, should not trust their subjective sense of good and evil > very far. Pace Star Wars, you really shouldn't trust your > feelings--even Dumbledore cannot. To paraphrase OOP, he > should have known he was doing the wrong thing because he > felt so good about it. Pippin imamommy: I think a major theme of these books is Harry learning by his own experiences to discern good from evil. No, he does not have a perfect moral compass, although I think he has a pure, honest heart and good intentions. He "recognizes" Malfoy as evil based on two experiences he's already had; firstly, the encounter in Madame Malikin's, and secondly, his being befriended by Ron almost instantly. Personal, yes. I think we all learn to make these distinctions at least partly because of personal experiences, but by the time Malfoy makes this offer, Harry has already figured him out. You're right, Pippin, Harry doesn't recognize a lot of evil. I think that is the point. He, being honest himself, *is* easy to manipulate at times. But each experience will help teach him to be wary. To quote from Matthew in the Bible, "be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Harry needs to learn to recognize evil, and that is what he spends a lot of time doing: learning. I also happen to agree with Professor Snape (in this instance, anyway), Harry does need to learn to control his emotions so that he can make rational decisions. He *is* an easy target for Voldemort, is he not, when he is unable to think clearly. I don't mean he should ditch the feelings, but he will need to control them in the future. I absolutely love that Jo has been able to write Harry as a kid who is in need of gaining maturity, as opposed to someone who is already grown up. I think we see our own journey to hood (whatever our age) as we watch him struggle with these issues. imamommy From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 05:38:24 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 05:38:24 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99156 Pippin said: Harry agrees with Lily that James was just as offensive to her as Snape was. Dehumanizing someone on account of sex is just as bad as dehumanizing on account of race, IMO. James was behaving rudely whether he used rude language or not. Snow replies: Yet! Lily dated James two years later, and married him and became part of the Order against Voldemort and his followers, which Snape was a part of. (No one, hopefully, can see Snape as being good at that point) Lily, as I see it, attempted to do what was right, as Harry always does, but in the end what was it that Lily said to Snape, after Snape's mudblood reply? OOP pg. 648- "Fine," she said coolly. "I wont bother in future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus." Wouldn't this statement from Lily be just as bad as what James did, extremely insulting? (the tongue is mightier than the sword) Lily seemed a bit Hermione-ish here. Like don't embarrass me Snape, can't you see I am attempting to help you. What follows after this statement is directed to James being as childish or as bad as Snape is, correcting both of them with the same blow. (quite a woman) It's almost like Harry protecting Dudley from Dementors. This boy (Dudley) caused Harry more harm than enough and yet what did Harry do protect him. Dudley doesn't care about Harry and yet Harry saved him. That doesn't mean that Harry feels that Dudley is a good person. Harry, like his mother, just can't see injustice done to anyone no matter how much you don't like that person, no matter what they say or do to you. But in this respect, where Harry sees his father as being bad and Snape as the victim has me extremely puzzled given the circumstances of what his mother said to Snape in the end, it all comes back to why Harry would be sympathetic to Snape, for me. There are a lot of puzzle pieces missing. Snow-confused From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sun May 23 05:48:12 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 05:48:12 -0000 Subject: Fudge & Percy In-Reply-To: <20040522053328.34439.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99157 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Miss Melanie wrote: Although, the wizarding world is very quick to turn their opinions of people. I mean look how quickly they condemned Sirius, even if they had a ton of muggle witnesses. Since when did muggle witnesses mean much to their world anyhow? It just seems odd to me that people threw out what all they knew of Sirius, and if nothing else they ignored that it is obvious that Sirius was quite loved by James and Lily. It was a mutual love too. I mean I know you can believe one thing and have it turn out quite opposite. But this is a boy afterall who at age 11 made a choice to defy his family and choose the house that he felt he truly belonged in. This is a child that at age 16 left home because he couldn't handle them and their "pure-blooded superiority." It just doesn't seem like the > same guy who would in just a couple of years send Voldie to kill the people that had become his family. > > ~Melanie > imamommy "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." I don't think this particular social malady is unique to the wizarding world, do you? But not only did they judge Sirius harshly, look what Harry's been through. He's been up again-down again on the public opinion polls since he first started at Hogwarts. He gets to learn the hard way, I guess, that what other people think doesn't really matter. imamommy > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Sun May 23 06:02:07 2004 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 06:02:07 -0000 Subject: Uncle Algie's purpose (was Assyrians still exist) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99158 >" ... My great-uncle Algie got it for me in Assyria." (OotP, > US Hardback, Ch. 10, pg. 186) Perchance Uncle Algie is making diplomatic contact with foreign wizards in Assyria? Assyria meaning all the region that this empire once covered, which includes Iraq, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, parts of Egypt and North Eastern Africa, part of Turkey and other countries in that area as well. Uncle Algie may have a role we do not see yet; but the plant is one of JKR's clues?? HedwigsTalons From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun May 23 06:47:07 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 06:47:07 -0000 Subject: Assyrians still exist - yes, they do In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99159 Sea Change: Perhaps Uncle Algie is more progressive than we think. In real life, smack dab in the center of California is a city called Ceres, and a decently large proportion of the people living there call themselves Assyrian. They think they've still got a homeland and are probably interested in the current events in Iraq. It's not much of a stretch for me to suppose in the Wizarding world this feeling is much stronger. It's also possible that Uncle Algie is a Great Uncle Algie, and was around pre-WW1. Many muslim empires had semi-autonomous regions with names that we either recognize, or which were called by that name by our diplomats. The Mimbulus Mimbletonia Neville has could just be a cutting or a meristem of the original plant. Neri: To the best of my knowledge, Assyrians exist and are a small minority in Iraq today. I think they are actually christian, not muslims, thought I'm not sure of which church exactly. Might be something gnostic. Their connection with the biblical Assyrians might not be very established. The ancient Assyrians were a very warlike empire that vanquished, among other nations, the kingdom of Israel and exiled the ten tribes of Israel into the realm of legend (the modern Jews are supposed to be decedents of the remaining tribes from the kingdom of Judea). Shortly after that the Assyrian empire was itself conquered by Babylon and vanished forever. The modern Assyrians are actually one of the more advanced and peaceful cults in Iraq. However, to my knowledge they are not located within a single place in Iraq, and there is no geographic region called Assyria. This is all general knowledge that I didn't bother to verify, and should be treated accordingly. Neri From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Sun May 23 06:48:52 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 06:48:52 -0000 Subject: Slytherin in Sorting Hat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99160 Hi, We know that The Sorting Hat has elements of all the four founders of Hogwarts in it. If Godric Gryffindor's element was his sword which Harry pulled out, true to Gryffindor's essential quality which is supposed to be bravery, what could be the element of Salazar Slytherin that is hidden in it? Would this have to be pulled out to defeat Voldemort or at least tame him in one more battle? Even if its not used as a plot device I would even be interested in what each of the founders put in the Hat. Bye Adi From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 23 06:51:31 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 06:51:31 -0000 Subject: King's Cross (was Re: Assyria and Wizardly Geography) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz Muir" wrote: Rowen: > c) JKR is geographically challenged and just pulled Assyria out of a > hat of place names she could use. Certainly possible, given I'm > pretty sure she doesn't check her geographical facts to well (eg. > mixing up King's Cross station with another station while writing). Geoff: I'm interested in your comments on King's Cross and how JKR has mixed up the station with another. I know that in the film, they used exterior shots of St.Pancras which is right next to KX but used the correct interior shots. I have one or two suspicions in canon about the station - particularly about the platform numbering - but would like to hear your ideas. From chrissilein at yahoo.com Sun May 23 06:58:35 2004 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Lady Of The Pensieve) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 06:58:35 -0000 Subject: Snape and Petunia, a couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99162 Hello, indeed Petunia and Snape act very alike. The similarities are obviously from my point of view. Even they seem to have a very different background Petunia and Snape have got something very important in common: They hatred for James Potter, yes they hated him both with a passion. The big question is: WHY?? Ok, Snape hated James for what he has done to him, but what went wrong with Petunia? Was it really jeaulousy? Nothing more? If Snape and Petunia were a couple is questionable, of course. Maybe we get a hint by Petunia?s anagram for her name? Petunia Evans: Venutia Snape (hehe). (Don?t take it too seriously, please) LadyOfThePensieve --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sarahmint at y... wrote: > I was watching the first Harry Potter movie yesterday and I realized > something. Keep in mind Joanne Rowling has an influence on the > screenwriters of her movies. Aunt Petunia acts just like Snape. > Could they have had an affair thirty years ago? (Seems like a soap > opera doesn't it?) She did get a howler in the latest book (how did > some of you guess that was going to happen?), and are still hiding > things from Harry. Order of the Phoenix gave an introduction to the > previous generation of Hogwarts students. Petunia and Lilly are > flowers. Lilly seemed to care for Snape, but he rejected her. > Could Petunia have taken advantage of Lilly's affections out of > spite? Could Petunia have denied the wizarding world because she > was born of wizard parents but did not have powers herself? > > > > By the way, Harry speaks Parseltounge, just like the original > master of Slytherin house. Hogwarts is the breed of a flower, just > like his parents. Do you know what I am hinting? From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun May 23 07:15:27 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 07:15:27 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99163 > Neri: > I know this is your interpretation of this scene, but my > interpretation is different. This is a classic scene, used (usually > many times) in any good-against-evil novel, of the good hero > instinctively recognizing evil and opposing it. Pippin: Harry instinctively recognizes evil? If this is supposed to be an instinct, it's a pretty weak one. Harry doesn't recognize Quirrell, Tom Riddle, Scabbers, or Fake!Moody as evil. He doesn't even recognize when Voldemort is putting lies into his head. Neri: I did a poor job of explaining myself. HP would have been a very boring story if Harry could always tell good from evil. This is certainly not what I meant. In the specific scene Kneasy and I were discussing, it is actually not difficult at all to tell that the clueless Ron is the good kid and the conceited Draco is the bad kid. What I meant is that when Draco offered his hand and Harry didn't take it, Harry was making a fateful choice. He is going to be a Gryphindor, not a Slytherin. He is going to be Harry Potter and not another Tom. This choice is going to affect all his years in Hogwarts and the future of the whole WW. The inherent quality of the good hero is to recognize these critical moments of choice. This is what makes him the good hero. It is not a plot device. It is in a deeper level. In the level of the plot all Harry is aware of is that (as Kneasy wrote) he likes Ron and dislikes Draco. Perhaps the reason I find it so difficult to explain is that this is so obvious. This is the first time I bothered to try putting it in words. I believe most readers just take it for granted. I'm not even sure that JKR is fully aware of this. Maybe she just writes what "feels right" to her. Pippin: Besides, if Harry has the inherent ability to recognize and reject the path of evil, then why should we care that he chose Gryffindor? He should have gone into Slytherin and led all the other Slythies back to the light. Neri: Perhaps this is how you would have written the story, but this is not how JKR chose to write it. I identify with all those who want to redeem Draco or find another "good slytherin", but after five out of seven books we still haven't found him. If you don't like it you can write your own version of HP, but in JKR's version, Harry choosing Slytherin and shunning the Weasleys and Hagrid (Draco practically stated this as his condition) would have made him a second Tom. But I wonder why JKR wrote it this way. Perhaps she is telling us that even when you are only 11 years old, you already have to make your choices between right and wrong. Pippin: IMO, the major theme of the books is that people, including readers, should not trust their subjective sense of good and evil very far. Pace Star Wars, you really shouldn't trust your feelings--even Dumbledore cannot. To paraphrase OOP, he should have known he was doing the wrong thing because he felt so good about it. Neri: I certainly agree that a major lesson of HP, and also what makes it so much fun, is that things are frequently not what they're seem to be. A bad man might masquerade as a good man. Something that feels good might turn out to be wrong. But there are limits to this. You can fool some people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time. A character like Lupin, who is so obviously brave, kind, troubled and flawed, can't turn out to be pretending the whole time. A complex character like Snape, no matter how "deeply horrible" he is, is almost sure to redeem himself in the end. Harry rushing to the MoM to save Sirius was a terrible mistake in the level of the plot, but in a deeper level, Sirius' death made Harry stronger. The good characters often mistake the wrong for the right or the right for the wrong, but that's not an excuse to say that there's actually no difference between right and wrong. Pippin: I think JKR has made a great leap forward in good-vs-evil novels. She has dared to make the good side morally complex. Neri: Well, many authors before had morally complex characters, but then their novels were not classic good-vs-evil. Yes, I agree that what makes HP especially interesting is this apparent contradiction between the good-evil duality and the complexity of many of the characters. Pippin: Unlike Tolkien or Star Wars, everyone in the Potterverse does not draw the line between good and evil in the same place. The characters may not draw the line where Dumbledore would, but, JKR seems to be saying, as long as they draw it somewhere, and refuse to cross it, Dumbledore is on their side. Neri: I agree, but again there is a limit to this. You can't draw the line anywhere you want. Some things are just plainly wrong. Neri From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 23 07:17:12 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 07:17:12 -0000 Subject: Veelas / Wizarding Elections / Elements of Founders / Mixed Up King's X Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99164 Just Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/98797 : << Fleur's mother is mentioned, but she doesn't seem to have a father, which again raises the question of whether there are male Veelas and if not, how a girl could be only part (presumably a quarter) Veela. >> I think that Fleur being quarter-Veela comes from her *father* being half-Veela, because the one mention of Fleur's mother doesn't say anything about her being unusually pretty for her age or looking like Fleur. If there are no male Veelas and the female Veelas reproduce their kind by sex with human men, then it could be that their daughters are Veelas and their sons are half-Veela. If there are no male Veelas, it could be that the female Veelas grow on trees and any chldren they bear in the human way are half-Veela. I *loved* the suggestion Neri made of Veelas and Leprechauns being females and males of the same species, but I had thought that the males of the Potterverse Veela species are kobolds or some other kind of ugly underground miner dwarf who live in the same geographic region, and they come up to orgy with the females every Midsummer Night. I've also considered the possibility that Potterverse Veelas are not non-humans, but rather are a lineage of witches with a little something extra: a built-in Imperius "desire me" and the ability to transform to a big dangerous flying bird. Geoff wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/98976 : << I'm not sure whether the minister of Magic is elected? Canon seems a bit vague, certainly when Crouch is discussed... >> I'm inclined to think that the Wizengamot elects the Minister and the Minister appoints the members of the Wizengamot: a nicely self-perpetuating oligarchy (tempered mainly by fear of riots: a mob of angry wizards surely could do a great deal of damage; perhaps also tempered by fear of duels). Giving the vote to the wizarding general public is another reform Hermione could campaign for in her career as a political activist (remember, her career plan was to do more with SPEW?). Adi wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr ownups/message/99160 : << We know that The Sorting Hat has elements of all the four founders of Hogwarts in it. If Godric Gryffindor's element was his sword which Harry pulled out, true to Gryffindor's essential quality which is supposed to be bravery, what could be the element of Salazar Slytherin that is hidden in it? Would this have to be pulled out to defeat Voldemort or at least tame him in one more battle? Even if its not used as a plot device I would even be interested in what each of the founders put in the Hat. >> I don't think the Founders put physical objects into the Sorting Hat, but at least Gryffindor left his tool around somewhere, maybe in the Headmaster's office, and I like to think that the others did so also. I think they are a wand for Slytherin (since wizardry was such a big deal to him), a pen for Ravenclaw, and a broom for Hufflepuff - meant to represent a sweeping broom. Geoff wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/99161 : << I'm interested in your comments on King's Cross and how JKR has mixed up the station with another. I know that in the film, they used exterior shots of St.Pancras which is right next to KX but used the correct interior shots. I have one or two suspicions in canon about the station - particularly about the platform numbering - but would like to hear your ideas. >> She said somewhere that she was thinking of Euston Station. Off I go to Goat Pad to find the quote ... http://www.angelfire.com/magic/aberforthsgoat/index.html http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/arti cles/2001/1201-bbc-staff.htm "BBC Special Christmas 2001" "She wrote platform 9 3/4 when she was in Manchester and wrongly visualised the platforms of Euston and Kings Cross." From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun May 23 08:00:32 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 08:00:32 -0000 Subject: Assyria and Wizardly Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz Muir" wrote: > bboy_mn: > > ...substantially edited... > > >So, my vote is for (b.), this is a reference to a cultural region > > of the middle east, not to a geo-political region. > Liz: > > Which I completely disagree with, as pointed out in the preceding > paragraphs. There is no comparable precedent, at least that anyone > has cared to site, and no reason for Neville to speak in that way in > the first place. bboy_mn: But, by your own admission, you claim a heritage and cultural attachment to a place that no longer exist. By the way, the bit about Germans in the North speaking a dialet that was difficult to understand by other Germans. That was told to me while I was living in Germany (near Luxemburg) and by a native German. I took her word for it. > > bboy_mn: > > >I also give some weight to option (d), I don't think wizards and > >witches recognise the same geo-political boundaries as muggles do. > >... the wizard world doesn't recognise Republic of Ireland and > > Northern Ireland; it's all Ireland to them. The Republic vs > > Northern was founded in religious and political strife that the > > wizard world wasn't part of. > Liz continues: > > This was more of the kind of discussion I was looking for! I have > looked up said posts, but would have appreciated it if you had > focused more on this than the many invalid examples above. > > In summary: I find no similar case for referring to the region as > Assyria, but do find the Quidditch World Cup posts interesting. > > Rowen, bboy_mn: Perhaps we have a problem with word definitions, what I gave you were not 'examples' but 'illustrations' (I do that a lot). They illustrate how cultural and social regions are frequently independant of ever changing political regions. They also illustrate how people can cling to cultural identities even when the geo-political place no longer exist, and this illustration holds true whether modern or ancient. Perhaps a better example would have been aboriginal tribes. The Sioux Nation still exists and they do not define themselves by the political borders of reservations, states, or political nations. They define themselves by a culture and ancestral lands which have existed for thousands of years. I think my illustrations, now deleted, and this example all point to the same thing, that a social and culturally defined region is independant of political boundaries. As far as Neville, he could have been parroting what his uncle told him, and his uncle could have been referring to having traveled to the Assyrian social, historical, and cultural region of a place whose current political boundaries are defined as Iraq. In other words... Assyrians are the indigenous people of north Iraq - members of the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorian), the Chaldean Church of Babylon, and the Syriac Orthodox Church - who read and write Aramaic, a Semitic language which is used in their religious observances. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian The political boundaries are long gone, but the people and the place exist even today. There are people today who define themselves as Persians, and you can still go to Persia, even though politically Persia doesn't exits. There are people today who define themselves as Bavarians, and you can still go to Bavaria, even though politically it doesn't exist. There are people today who define themselves as Assyrians, and you can still go to Assyria, their ancient ancestral homeland, even though politically the place doesn't exits. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying... bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun May 23 08:11:02 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 08:11:02 -0000 Subject: Assyria & Wizardly Geography- Correction Bavaria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > ...edited... > > There are people today who define themselves as Bavarians, and you can > still go to Bavaria, even though politically it doesn't exist. > bboy_mn: Apparently, I was wrong about Bavaria. It is currently an Administrative District of Germany. Although, I highly suspect that it's cultural identity extends far beyond being an 'administrative district'. Sorry, I used a dictionary when I should have used an encyclopedia. bboy_mn From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun May 23 10:44:47 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 10:44:47 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > I know this is your interpretation of this scene, but my > interpretation is different. This is a classic scene, used (usually many times) in any good-against-evil novel, of the good hero > instinctively recognizing evil and opposing it. (snip) Perhaps the reason I find it so difficult to explain is that this is so obvious. This is the first time I bothered to try putting it in words. I believe most readers just take it for granted. I'm not even sure that JKR is fully aware of this. Maybe she just writes what "feels right" to her. (snip discussion with Pippin) Neri: I agree, but again there is a limit to this. You can't draw the line anywhere you want. Some things are just plainly wrong. Carolyn: As I don't agree with your POV, I have been following this thread with interest. Whilst I don't mind endless discussion culminating in all parties flopping exhausted on the ground totally unconvinced of the other party's argument, I do object when broad statements are made about what 'most readers think'. Not only is this the weakest debating tactic in the book, but I would have thought it was *obvious* that nearly 110 000 post later, there is not a lot of agreement (on this list at least) about anything, ranging from the trivial to the sublime (and this is pretty much the same on most such discussion lists). Instead, in time-honoured fashion, you are simply projecting your own values, wishes and wants on to the books, no less, no more. Fortunately, perhaps, the democratic nature of internet groups make it impossible for anyone to *win* such debates, and I commend to you a salutary, and very funny post from the archives on the nature of such discussions: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77115 From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun May 23 10:58:21 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 10:58:21 -0000 Subject: Snape and Petunia, a couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Of The Pensieve" wrote: > Hello, > > indeed Petunia and Snape act very alike. The similarities are > obviously from my point of view. > Even they seem to have a very different background Petunia and Snape > have got something very important in common: They hatred for James > Potter, yes they hated him both with a passion. The big question is: > WHY?? Ok, Snape hated James for what he has done to him, but what went > wrong with Petunia? Was it really jeaulousy? Nothing more? Hickengruendler: I don't think Petunia really hated James as a person. I think she hated him, because he was a part of the wizarding world. From what we can assume from her rant in PS, she was very jealous of Lily and probably even felt that her parents neglected her because they had a witch in the family. I have no idea how much of this feeling was justified, but I tend to think that the Evans parents were probably really interested in the wizarding world, and therefore asked Lily probably a lot of questions about it during the holidays. Petunia went to a muggle school. The parents knew everything about it and therefore weren't that much interested in Petunia. Add to this that Lily is always described as very beautiful, while Petunia is rather ugly, and I think you can see where her loathing for Lily and the wizrading world comes from. When she speaks ill about James, I doubt it had anything to do with James as a person, but more with the fact that he was Lily's husband and a wizard. Although you never know. Petunia probably didn't share James sort of humor, therefore she might have a grudge against him, too. About the original question: No, I don't think Petunia and Snape were, are or will ever be a couple. They couldn't live with each other for three minutes. Prim and proper Petunia would be driven mad by the greasy Snape. But I do think the characters have some similarities. Both are rather unpleasant people, who hold grudges against one of Harry's parents. Both of them are not able to forgive and forget and therefore treat Harry badly, although he is completely innocent. But both of them obviously don't want Harry to die and try their best to save his life. Hickengruendler From jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 23 08:51:24 2004 From: jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk (jojobinks1983) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 08:51:24 -0000 Subject: The Temptation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99169 I think that it was Kneasy who suggested "the temptation" as a likely future plot device, and i would go so far as to say it's inevitable. Although at the moment it's difficult to imagine FilthyTurncoat!Harry imagine the possible circumstances with which he may be faced in his personal relationships in the remaining books. Hermione and Ron get together and he becomes the expendable third wheel. There may be something new about the relationship between Sirius, James and Snape that could get him in a huff. The biggie though is when DD knocks him for six, the moment Harry discovers that most of the dangerous situations he has gotten himself into were more contrived than a Krypton Factor obstacle course. Why would you guard the PS with a set of tasks, their innate purpose being to be solved? A DADA teacher that can't fight trolls? I won't go on to the other books because they must have been extensively ripped apart, but you can see my point. Harry finds out that DD, one of the people he trusts most in the world, is the maker of all this hell he has been through. I'd be a bit cheesed off. He also falls from the pedestal he has placed himself on having discovered there was very little initiative involved in his heroics. By comparison the evil faction of the WW has very little to live up to in Harry's eyes. Any actions they take would potentially be a step up from the heinous murderers category they currently occupy, and there are plenty of candidates for who will lead Harry astray (please be Snape!). Harry has expectations of the Hogwarts crew, so when they come crashing down around him he may be open to a bit of evil seduction, and he does come across as a forgetful lad doesn't he? Parents...what parents? Jo, who is sorry if this has been done before but is looking forward to DD's deathbed scene with Harry. Wonder what Hermione will have to say about that one? From linda_gaunt at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 23 09:51:56 2004 From: linda_gaunt at yahoo.co.uk (linda_gaunt) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 09:51:56 -0000 Subject: Dan's predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99170 Don't know if I am repeating info here, i have too many messages to read them all - pressures of work, etc.. apologies if so! I was very interested in Dan's opinions on Harry's fate, as quoted to Page at Danradcliffe.co.uk, because I tend to go with this theory. Here's that quote: I think there's going to be something, and I'd like to say before I answer this, that this is completely unfounded. Jo Rowling has told me absolutely nothing I promise, but I think because of the link between Harry and Voldemort's wands, there's going to be something, whereby, Harry, I mean I don't want to cause a big out cry. But I've got really bad feelings that something not so good's going to happen to Harry. Because maybe like if he died that's the only way Voldemort could die as well and so they cancel each other out. I think people are going to go mad when I've said that I'm sure. Or he would become a Quidditch player. It's a happier ending. From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 11:46:26 2004 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:46:26 -0000 Subject: Lord Byron Anyone? (Was Assyria and Wizardly Geography} In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99171 This has been an interesting thread to follow! But does anyone else think of the Lord Byron poem, "The Destruction of Sennacherib," when they hear the word Assyria? Maybe I'm just a literature geek, but the first line of the poem is: "The Assyrian came down like the wolf on the fold" You can read the entire poem here: http://englishhistory.net/byron/poems/destruct.html I think I agree the most with the poster (sorry for not remembering the post!) who mentioned that maybe the mention of Assyria is a clue to reinforce the Biblical parallels in the plot? karenoc1 From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun May 23 11:48:54 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:48:54 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99172 > Snow wrote: - going off a bit on Sirius' benefit of the doubt: > There are always two sides to a story and we really don't know the > whole story behind why that joke occurred and why Sirius said it > would have served Snape right. We were only given a one-sided view of > that whole scenario. What did Snape do to provoke such a response > from Sirius? He must have done something to one of Sirius' friends, > most likely James, for Sirius to have said it would have served him > right. Served him right for what! > > I don't think we have been allowed to know that whole scene anymore > than the scenes in the pencieve in Snape's office. You can defiantly > misinterpret if you don't have all the facts. Like Harry feeling > sorry for Snape because he was viewing what he saw from Snape's view > of "his" worst memory. To bad there wasn't a pencieve thought from > James' point of view so you could have seen the other side of the > coin. Harry does ask Sirius and, if Harry was listening, was told > that Snape never missed an opportunity to curse James. What are some > of the things that Snape did to James? It's just a bit one-sided > here. We are allowed to see what has happened to Snape but not some > of the things that Snape obviously did to James. Marianne: Just another example of JKR's tendency to dole out information a little bit at a time so that we don't get the complete picture until the proper moment in the series. I had felt that we would find out something nasty about James simply because we hadn't heard anything negative about him, except from Snape. Now, in OoP, not only are we presented with a "living" example of James' bad behavior, we are also shown things about Snape's past that make him more sympathetic. Or, if not sympathetic, at least as someone who has also had instances in his life that were very painful. The fact that Sirius engaged in bullying Snape also reinforces some readers' opinions that Sirius did indeed try to murder Snape using Remus as the weapon. I personally think that has not been proved yet. Who knows? Maybe it was a premeditated attempted murder. OTOH, JKR's penchant for showing characters in one light, only to reveal something different later may also be at work here. She's highlighted some of Sirius' negative characteristics in OoP, which also makes it easier for some to believe in Sirius!Attempted Murderer. JKR had Harry, Molly and Hermione all make the point throughout the book that Sirius is reckless. Was she engaged in simply trying to make that point in giant letters so we would be sure not to miss it? Or was she doing a massive head-fake to settle that thought fimly in our minds, only to undermine it in a later book? I await the revelations of the back-story of Snape and Sirius and the Prank with great impatience and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it comes in Book 6 and not 7. Somehow, I doubt that what JKR considers "the whole story" will really be enough for us to satisfy all the questions we have now, and will come up with later. Marianne From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun May 23 13:28:28 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:28:28 -0000 Subject: Slytherin in Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99173 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > Hi, > We know that The Sorting Hat has elements of all the four founders > of Hogwarts in it. If Godric Gryffindor's element was his sword which > Harry pulled out, true to Gryffindor's essential quality which is > supposed to be bravery, what could be the element of Salazar > Slytherin that is hidden in it? It's difficult to guess: bravery=sword is an easy link to make, but what would equal "ambition"? Because that is the real characteristic of Slytherin, not the pureblood stuff that came to be associated with him. I think the four founders are also representative of the four elements: fire, water, air and earth, all of which are necessary for life, and Slytherin would represent the water element, but how that could physically end up in the Sorting Hat is problematic. Perhaps we're not supposed to take the legend literally? I also wonder if Slytherin is more or less tainted by his despicable followers (and descendent) so that we no longer have a very clear idea of who he was. Was Salazar Slytherin an early Voldemort? It hardly seems possible, since the other 3 founders of Hogwarts worked with him, and for some time they all got along well together. On the other hand, there is that basilisk incident, and it's hard to see how Slytherin could have meant any good to come of installing a monster in the school basement. Wanda From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Sun May 23 13:46:34 2004 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:46:34 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99174 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: Snow: > > Lily, as I see it, attempted to do what was right, as Harry always > does, but in the end what was it that Lily said to Snape, after > Snape's mudblood reply? OOP pg. 648- "Fine," she said coolly. "I wont > bother in future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus." > Wouldn't this statement from Lily be just as bad as what James did, > extremely insulting? (the tongue is mightier than the sword) Lily > seemed a bit Hermione-ish here. Like don't embarrass me Snape, can't > you see I am attempting to help you. Renee: IMO, Lily certainly isn't lily-white here. Sure, she defended the victim against his bullies, but if someone is treated unjustly and you intervene, lack of gratitude and even racial slurs should *not* cause you to turn your back to them. What Snape says, doesn't make James's and Sirius's treatment of him any more justified than it was. Of course, it would take a saint to ignore Snape's reaction altogether; that Lily pays him back in kind shows she's no saint or angel but a normal human being. It's what she does next that I find so disappointing. In the first place, her words to James show that her desire to take him down a notch plays a major role in her decision to intervene. This makes her indignation look somewhat less righteous than before, and it makes me suspect it wasn't difficult for her to do something. Then she leaves, practically begging James to continue his torment of Snape. After all, how else is he to remain cool in the eyes of the general public? So he pretends to be unaffected and goes on as if nothing has happened. (Maybe he actually took Snape's pants off - it seems unlikely that Lupin suddenly acquired a bit of spine and took over Lily's part.) Would James have turned Snape upside down again if Lily had stayed, without defending Snape verbally, yet showing she wasn't going to abandon her responsibility as a prefect? I don't think so. But she does leave Snape to his fate. To me, this almost brings Lily down to the level of the other actors in this drama. Though I'm not sure if this is what JKR intended. Renee From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun May 23 14:37:32 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 14:37:32 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99175 Carolyn wrote: As I don't agree with your POV, I have been following this thread with interest. Whilst I don't mind endless discussion culminating in all parties flopping exhausted on the ground totally unconvinced of the other party's argument, I do object when broad statements are made about what 'most readers think'. Not only is this the weakest debating tactic in the book, but I would have thought it was *obvious* that nearly 110 000 post later, there is not a lot of agreement (on this list at least) about anything, ranging from the trivial to the sublime (and this is pretty much the same on most such discussion lists). Instead, in time-honoured fashion, you are simply projecting your own values, wishes and wants on to the books, no less, no more. Fortunately, perhaps, the democratic nature of internet groups make it impossible for anyone to *win* such debates, and I commend to you a salutary, and very funny post from the archives on the nature of such discussions: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77115 Neri: Thanks for this link. It is very funny and enlightening. It also suggests why it is impossible to reach any consensus (which was not the objective anyway): The rules and dynamics of the forum practically prevent it. If you go to the polls section of the group, you'll notice that sometime there is quite a wide agreement on subjects that in the forum itself can never be agreed upon (I won't give specific examples in order not to start another three or four landslides, but you probably know what I mean). But I'll try to avoid this tactic next. I already gained a lot from this discussion, just because I was forced to put in words something that I always knew but never thought about. I didn't quite manage it yet, but another three or four rounds might do it. Or some forum member will just drop a three-lines post that says it better than I'll ever be able to. But if it is not "obvious" to you, then I'd like very much to know, do you think that Harry is the "good hero" of HP, and if so, what is the key quality that makes him so? Or, to put it in Kneasy's words, did Harry become a Gryphindor and not a Slytherin only because, after less than a day of acquaintance, he thought he likes Ron better than he likes Draco? Neri From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 23 15:02:32 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 23 May 2004 15:02:32 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1085324552.36.45832.m5@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99176 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, May 23, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From rowen_lm at yahoo.com Sun May 23 16:01:46 2004 From: rowen_lm at yahoo.com (Liz Muir) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 16:01:46 -0000 Subject: King's Cross (was Re: Assyria and Wizardly Geography) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99177 Rowen wrote: > > c) JKR is geographically challenged (eg. > > mixing up King's Cross station with another station while > > writing). > Geoff replied: > I'm interested in your comments on King's Cross and how JKR has mixed > up the station with another. > > I know that in the film, they used exterior shots of St.Pancras which > is right next to KX but used the correct interior shots. I have one > or two suspicions in canon about the station - particularly about the > platform numbering - but would like to hear your ideas. What I was referring to was an interview I once heard with JKR. In the movies, and in real life, King's Cross station doesn't match up with the description in the books. (I made a point of going there on my trip to England.) IIRC, in the books, there is a wooden (or brick) barrier between the platforms 9 and 10. In the actual station, the two platforms are the sidewalk on opposite sides of the central railway track, making it very difficult to find any barrier between them. :) Apparently, when JKR was writing, she mixed the layout of the station with a different one. I cannot yet find it in an exact quote by JKR, but here's a narrated version from quick quotes. "She wrote platform 9 3/4 when she was in Manchester and wrongly visualised the platforms of Euston and Kings Cross." - http://www.the- leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/1201-bbc-staff.htm I'll keep searching for that quote. I swear I heard her say it somewhere. Either way, the incorrect layout is apparent if you visit the actual station. :D Rowen From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 16:22:28 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 16:22:28 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Carolyn wrote: > As I don't agree with your POV, I have been following this thread > with interest. Whilst I don't mind endless discussion culminating in > all parties flopping exhausted on the ground totally unconvinced of > the other party's argument, I do object when broad statements are > made about what 'most readers think'. > > Not only is this the weakest debating tactic in the book, but I would > have thought it was *obvious* that nearly 110 000 post later, there > is not a lot of agreement (on this list at least) about anything, > ranging from the trivial to the sublime (and this is pretty much the > same on most such discussion lists). Instead, in time-honoured > fashion, you are simply projecting your own values, wishes and wants > on to the books, no less, no more. > > Fortunately, perhaps, the democratic nature of internet groups make > it impossible for anyone to *win* such debates, and I commend to you > a salutary, and very funny post from the archives on the nature of > such discussions: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77115 > > > > Neri: > > Thanks for this link. It is very funny and enlightening. It also > suggests why it is impossible to reach any consensus (which was not > the objective anyway): The rules and dynamics of the forum > practically prevent it. If you go to the polls section of the group, > you'll notice that sometime there is quite a wide agreement on > subjects that in the forum itself can never be agreed upon (I won't > give specific examples in order not to start another three or four > landslides, but you probably know what I mean). But I'll try to avoid > this tactic next. > > I already gained a lot from this discussion, just because I was > forced to put in words something that I always knew but never thought > about. I didn't quite manage it yet, but another three or four rounds > might do it. Or some forum member will just drop a three-lines post > that says it better than I'll ever be able to. But if it is > not "obvious" to you, then I'd like very much to know, do you think > that Harry is the "good hero" of HP, and if so, what is the key > quality that makes him so? > > Or, to put it in Kneasy's words, did Harry become a Gryphindor and > not a Slytherin only because, after less than a day of acquaintance, > he thought he likes Ron better than he likes Draco? > > Neri He! I found that other post to be incredibly funny too. Part of the reason why I joined the list was indeed to improve my language and discussion skills. Personally, I do try not to do sweep generalisations while I debate, but TO ME there are some things in HP universe, which are obvious indeed. I will go even further and say that I do believe that there are some things, which we can state to 99% ceratinty will never happen in canon, even if consensus about that can not be reached on the list. Here are some examples on which I am ready to bet anything. 1. Vodemort will be defeated in the end. We have no clue how it will happen, but he will be defeated. 2. Harry will not turn evil on a permanent basis, if ever. yes, as we saw possession is possible, but besides that? Now, I am enjoying reading Kneasy's intellectual exercises on ESE! Harry. I am sure people can put forward very well argued theories about the possibility that Voldemort will win in the end and evil will prevail, but it does not make the likelihood of those two things happening in canon any greater, IMO. So, to make a long story short, I don't see anything wrong in saying that some happenings in Potterverse are obvious. Alla From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 17:10:44 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:10:44 -0000 Subject: Assyria and Wizardly Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Rowen wrote: > > > > Alright, in recently rereading OotP and again pondering the > > significance of Mimbulus mimbletonia, I came across this quote by > > Neville: " ... My great-uncle Algie got it for me in Assyria." > (OotP, > > US Hardback, Ch. 10, pg. 186) > > >> > Potioncat > Back when we were all wondering what sort of name "Karkaroff" is and > what it might mean, someone found an Assyrian town or person with a > similar name. It was Biblical and had to do with a battle. > > Someone more adept than me would have to find it though, if anyone is > interested. Any way, it adds to the Assyria connection. > (snip) > Lady McBeth: Okay I can't find the post in the archive, it refuses to give me anything that wasn't posted this month, however since I found the info originally it went something like this: The Battle of KarKar took place between several armies and is thought to be the largest battle in number of participants at that time. Karkar is supposed to be a place on the Orontes in Lebanon or Syria, but it seems that the right spot has not been identified. To the east of Sidon there is a mountain called Jebel Karkar, near the Litani; perhaps the battle was fought there? Anyway it was near a river. A 'Karkor' is mentioned in Judges 8:10; it was not far from Penuel. This would have been Assyria later right? Also, King Ahab and his great army took part in the battle of Karkar against the Assyrians under Shalmaneser III, together with other princes. The Assyrian records say that an Egyptian army was present, but they do not say what pharaoh sent it. It is supposed that it was Osorkon II, the same Osorkon who was buried in Tanis. I know that wasn't really necessary, but that's where the Assyria connection came from originally. Lady McBeth, damn steel trap mind that refuses to remember important things, but never forgets the useless trivia! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun May 23 17:52:44 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:52:44 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > Neri now: > But it is practically a surety that SOME ships will happen. So the > question (which does interests me) is WHICH. OTOH I'll bet you > anything that none of the main good characters, such as Lupin or > Sirius (or Harry...), will turn out to be ESE. IMHO this should be > pretty obvious to anybody who read the books in more levels than > merely the plot level. > Kneasy: Maybe one of the SHIPs will come home, but in my opinion it will be passed over in a paragraph or two. No big thing will be made of it in the books. ESE is something else. Most of us consider ESE to be shorthand for a range of behavioural or plot possibilities, particularly as evil is not an absolute - it depends on when, where and in what circumstances the action takes place. Two of the major themes in the story are betrayal and the motivations for choosing sides. 'Betrayal' is itself conditional. In some circumstances it could be considered 'good'. The more interesting characters have an air of ambiguity about them, as if their final choice has not yet been finally made or is open to re-assessment. In this list you can put Pettigrew, Snape, Fudge, Malfoy. The last of these could easily change sides; Voldy himself calls him "slippery." These are the ones in plain view and *all* of them are on the other side. I've posted before about Snape. By conviction and temperament he is not a 'goody'; he is a 'baddy' estranged from his natural allies. The 'why' of this will be very important IMO and may have important consequences. But it's reasonable to expect some balance; someone 'good' won't be. Betcha. With a writer like JKR it's quite probable that there are surprises to come; not everyone will turn out be what they seem. The WW isn't involved in a war tribe against tribe, it's a society at war with itself, a civil war where families are divided against each other. The stance a person takes is likely to be strongly influenced by personal interactions that are marginal to the philosophy of either side, that's one of the reasons civil wars are so terrible. > Neri: > I think what you are suggesting is more GTE!Harry (Good Turns Evil) > than ESE!Harry. This is indeed much easier plotwise. I'll grant there > is a chance this might happen for a short time, just as another trial > in the hero's journey, but we have only two out of seven books to go > and much that still has to happen, so I don't think this specific > episode will last very long, if at all. > Kneasy: No, I'm not. If enough of Voldy was in Harry then he would always have been ESE, but inactive, waiting for an opportune moment to show or declare his true colours. Not likely, but with Voldy delving into his mind and Harry *still* not studying hard on his Occlumency, outside influences could stimulate something that has lain dormant. > Neri: > Voldy proudly styles himself as the "Dark Lord", and his followers, > such as Bella and the Malfoys, regard this as an honorific (Snape, as > we all know, is a more complex case). Their mark is a skull with a > snake coming out of its mouth. Why do you think they chose these > specific symbols for themselves? > Kneasy: Symbols can be odd; the Nazis stole the swastika symbol from the old Indian Aryan cosmology where it was a traditional sign for good luck. The snake is probably Slytherin, but again, the snake is an ancient symbol for wisdom - there are two intertwined snakes on the caduceus of Mercury's staff, now often used as a medical sign. The skull? Conquering death? That's what Voldy wants. We might find out before the end. > Neri: > The question of relative moral in RL aside, the Potterverse DOES have > a God, or rather a Goddess. Her name is Jo K Rowling and She seems to > have very established opinions on the universality of Good and Evil. > And as well she should, since she is obviously writing a novel in the > celebrated genre of good-against-evil. It is of course your basic > right to hijack the Potterverse and change it to your heart content. > Fanfiction writers do it all the time. I sometime read them and > sometimes it is even interesting, but I still find the original > Potterverse much more interesting. > Kneasy: Not me doing the hi-jacking, not when JKR says the theme of the books is death. I'm going along with it. > Neri: > Murdering your parents because they were protecting you IS evil. > Philosophical convictions are not needed to appreciate this. It is > obvious to any 11 yrs old child. > Kneasy: Voldy's view is different. There's this kid who is prophesied to kill him. What to do...? Let him? Er, no. > Neri: > I apologize for the boring literature lecture. I almost never analyze > it in such an intellectual way when I read the books. I just know it, > as I think 95% of the readers do. > Kneasy: Me, I'm just the opposite. If a book is not susceptical to analysis then it lacks depth, is superficial pap and probably not worth reading. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun May 23 18:37:12 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 19:37:12 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? References: <1085273627.4872.70695.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003d01c440f4$f67cfa00$75e76151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 99181 Geoff wrote: > Unless I've missed something, canon is rather vague about the > timescale... > > '"The Longbottoms were very popular," said Dumbledor. "The attacks on > them came after Voldemort's fall from power just when everyone > thought they were safe.'" Yes. This would suggest it came after, but not too long after. My feeling is that the day after Voldemort's fall was one in which the Order busied themselves rounding up as many DEs as possible, just in case there was a further attempt on Harry. This would explain firstly why Hagrid took Harry and disappeared for the day, and why McGonagall was assigned to watch Privet Drive, just in case the DEs turned up there, either looking for Harry, or intending to dispose of Petunia and remove Harry's protection. Meanwhile the rest of the Order (and doubtless the Ministry wizards too) were out and about arresting Voldemort's main lieutenants and acolytes before they could regroup. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 23 18:41:17 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:41:17 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > I already gained a lot from this discussion, just because I was > forced to put in words something that I always knew but never thought > about. I didn't quite manage it yet, but another three or four rounds > might do it. Or some forum member will just drop a three-lines post > that says it better than I'll ever be able to. But if it is > not "obvious" to you, then I'd like very much to know, do you think > that Harry is the "good hero" of HP, and if so, what is the key > quality that makes him so? > > Or, to put it in Kneasy's words, did Harry become a Gryphindor and > not a Slytherin only because, after less than a day of acquaintance, > he thought he likes Ron better than he likes Draco? > Canon is explicit about the reason Harry didn't like Draco--it's because Draco reminded him of Dudley. Harry's had a whole ten years to learn what bullies are like. What's amazing is that he knew, somehow, that there was an alternative. It's hard to see how he could have learned that from experience--maybe it has to do with the same power that protected him as a baby. But it wouldn't have mattered if he hadn't had the gumption to argue with the Hat. He's a Gryffindor because he asked not to be in Slytherin, even though for all he knew, the choice was Slytherin or nothing.So I would say the key difference between Harry and Tom was courage. I think it's risky to try to predict what will happen based on our subjective impression of the story. Literary conventions exist because authors copy one another. But JKR has a habit of setting convention on its ear. Snape in PS/SS follows the conventions of a literary villain: he picks fights with the hero, punishes Harry unfairly, his ugliness verges on ethnic stereotyping, he dresses in black, and favors Harry's enemy. On my first reading, I thought he was way overdone, and I was surprised and delighted to discover he wasn't trying to steal the Stone after all. Lupin also strikes me as overdone--in fact JKR admits to idealizing him as a teacher. That raises a red flag with me, as does the fact thathe has three times confessed to moral cowardice -- after he was caught. Harry pays no attention, even though Dumbledore and JKR have emphasized that courage may mean taking a stand against your friends. When Harry ignores something JKR thinks is important, watch out! JKR has told us the stories will get darker, that Harry is going to go through some miserable times. Readers, conditioned by the conventions of the fantasy epic and the horror genre, immediately think in terms of corridors awash in blood and a body count in the zillions. But both Hagrid and Sirius told us that the worst terrors of Voldemort's reign were psychological. You couldn't tell who to trust. Judging by the polls section, JKR is pretty good at flummoxing reader expectations. How many people thought Ron would be prefect or that Sirius would die in OOP? On the other hand, most people guessed who the other Gryffindor prefect and Slytherin prefects would be. JKR obeys convention just enough to seduce us into thinking we know what's going to happen next. Pippin From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun May 23 18:51:03 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:51:03 -0000 Subject: Predictions(speculations) for Book 6... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99183 Apart from the 'obvious' - being 16 - there are certain things... Emotional control. (It's been on for a long time, hasn't it? Controlling his desire(Mirror), his fear AND despair (Boggart/Dementor)...- his anger got out of control.. And then, Occlumency in which he fails - partly because he was too tired (that Dumbidge) and because he was unable to wipe his mind off his anger (and Snape *taunts* him, thus preventing Harry from learning when he's supposed to be teaching!)... Supposedly it's Harry's anger that comes into spotlight somehow. Last time Harry's magic got out of control was due anger towards Marge - is this sort of thing going to happen again? Mind you, it's a bit curious that as angry as Harry was during his entire time at Hogwarts, NO accidental magic at Hogwarts. Still, it happened to Neville all the time! Also, Harry has only learned to suppress his anger and dwell on guilt (Dursleys engouragement, that - everything wrong is Harry's fault, they say and act - Vernon in particular). Now Harry has LOTS of suppressed anger in store. He broke things in Dumbledore's office by throwing them - I'm waiting for the climax of his anger - when are things starting to explode or catch fire? All that supposed protection - 'as long as he can call home this place where his mother's blood dwells...' - since when was 4 Privet Drive a *home* to Harry? He's always felt more at home while in Hogwarts, and back at his third year, it was HOME that Sirius offered him. Home. Magic WILL happen (always has! Dudley's pig tail, Dobby's Hovering Charm, blown Aunt Marge, Ton Tongue Toffee&Arthur Weasley, Patronus Charm&Order Members) Two books with controlled magic, one with uncontrolled, two with controlled magic (more advanced) - I think Harry's going to lose control of his magic - again. But this time it is going to do more than blow up a glass or send someone up to ceiling... Howabout Harry blowing up the house? or if not (without intent) killing his relatives, then at least doing considerable damage. (burn them?) I sort of see a furious Harry throwing fireballs and making things explode at slightest provocation and simply unable to stop himself. Next, a couple of Wizards apparate to the place and attempt to deal with it. Snape trying to force some Calming Draught into him, but Harry makes the vial explode and Snape gets into the line of fire until he disapparates. Finally, with Dumbledore there - Harry finally admits he *can't* calm down. (With all the people telling him to calm down, no one told him how...) As I recall, uncontrollable anger was one of the symptoms of things treated in St. Mungos (Dragon Pox?). Thinking of that Wizard hospital - all the talk about it, Harry visits another - perhaps Harry will be a patient this time! OR how about intercepted OWL results, charmed into a portkey by Voldemort? Dumbledore's 'best protection' is terribly faulty! For other things... Where's that new pet of Harry's we heard of? I doubt Sirius the dog really counts - a phoenix, perhaps? (inheriting Dumbledore due to a Will/finding another one somewhere) A snake (well, Harry IS a parselmouth so why not - though I think a phoenix would be the best!) Oh, and... I wonder if Harry's going to find out why Petunia acted the way she did - some horrible memory? The same one Dudley went trough with Dementors (unintended Legilimens on Petunia or something?) -- Finwitch From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun May 23 19:55:58 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 19:55:58 -0000 Subject: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "linda_gaunt" wrote: > Linda: > ...I was very interested in Dan's opinions on Harry's fate, as > quoted to Page at Danradcliffe.co.uk, because I tend to go with this > theory. > >Here's that quote: (Dan Radcliffe from interview) > > "I think there's going to be something, ... like .... because of the > link between Harry and Voldemort's wands, there's going to be > something, whereby, Harry, ... if he died that's the only way > Voldemort could die as well and so they cancel each other out. I > think people are going to go mad when I've said that I'm sure. Or he > would become a Quidditch player. It's a happier ending." bboy_mn: This theory is not new and has been discussed he in various forms probably since the beginning of the series. I suspect that nearly everyone has come up with their own 'Harry dies' scenerio at one time or another. Given the popularity of that theory, there may be some truth to it. There was a recent discussion that perhaps the Harry Potter story would follow the model of the Greek Tragedy. Others are hoping for more of a bittersweet ending. Still others like myself have predicted a 'death and rebirth' ending. That perhaps Harry need only die by some techincal definition of the word. People techinically die all the time in the real world and are brought back. Perhaps Dumbldedore will devise a plan whereby, for example, Harry is given Elixer of Life just before the final battle with Voldemort. He is given a small amount just to protect him in the moment. Voldemort curses Harry killing him by techincal definition for a short period of time, during that short period of time while Voldemort is vulnerable, some other 'hero' (Ron, Dumbledore, Dobby, Neville, etc...) steps in and finishes Voldemort off. Harry is then quickly revived, our hearts return to a normal pace, we wipe away a tear, and life goes on. I don't want a 'Harry Dies' ending, but at the same time I could see it happening. What really bothers me, is not so much Harry dying, as the out pouring of grief that would follow. To many many millions of children and adults alike Harry is real. He has touched our emotional hearts, and I can see his death bringing an outpouring of grief so intense and widespread that it nearly cripples the world; Schools and businesses closed because people are too grief stricken to carry on. Children weeping in the bedrooms as if their best friend had suddenly died. I can forsee an international day (or week or month) of mourning that exceeds the grief cause by the death of beloved presidents and kings. In short, I can see this ending happening, I just don't know if I can stand the pain. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 23 20:17:06 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 20:17:06 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99185 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Pippin: > I think JKR has made a great leap forward in good-vs-evil novels. > She has dared to make the good side morally complex. Unlike > Tolkien or Star Wars, everyone in the Potterverse does not draw > the line between good and evil in the same place. The > characters may not draw the line where Dumbledore would, but, > JKR seems to be saying, as long as they draw it somewhere, > and refuse to cross it, Dumbledore is on their side. Geoff: I think that there are plenty of morally complex characters in Tolkien. There are some who begin on the good side and fall by the wayside - you could probably include Boromir, Denethor and Saruman in this lot. Gollum is a singularly complex character and Frodo himmself almost succumbs at Mount Doom. And Sauron, in an echo of Tom Riddle/Voldemort perhaps, was originally a Maia of Aule before he was corrupted by Melkor/Morgoth. And, again, in the Narnia books, what about Edmund in "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" and Eustace Scrubb in "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader"? Not such well fleshed out characters but both drawn towards the evil side. From Batchevra at aol.com Sun May 23 20:17:20 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 16:17:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Assyria and Wizardly Geography Message-ID: <191.29671520.2de260d0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99186 In a message dated 5/23/04 1:21:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rowen_lm at yahoo.com writes: (snip) But it does still seem a weak justification for the term. Why not just pick a non-controversial location? Perhaps India (I know there still is some controversy, but not as large) or Egypt. Did it have to be this geographical location? If it didn't have to, that invalidates the "Iraq" issue. If it did, why is that region particularly important to this plant? (snip) Because the area is the cradle of civilization. Most of the ancient cities were established in this area, because of the rivers and the ability to grow food for future consumption instead of hunting and gathering on a daily basis. People were able to stay in one area and live for years instead of being nomadic. I would guess that the plant that Neville's Uncle Algie got for him, was grown there and probably cultivated, and was grown away from muggle's eyes. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rowen_lm at yahoo.com Sun May 23 16:21:51 2004 From: rowen_lm at yahoo.com (Liz Muir) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 16:21:51 -0000 Subject: Assyria and Wizardly Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99187 Rowen wrote: > > > > Which I completely disagree with, as pointed out in the preceding > > paragraphs. There is no comparable precedent, at least that anyone > > has cared to site, and no reason for Neville to speak in that way in > > the first place. bboy_mn replied: > > But, by your own admission, you claim a heritage and cultural > attachment to a place that no longer exist. Actually, I do not. I would never even consider calling myself Prussian. Even German would be a stretch because the other half of my family was Scottish and English. Although I am descended from them, I really have no cultural ties to them, except we get to open one present on Christmas Eve, in remembrance of the German tradition. That's it. The reason I brought my genealogy up was merely to counter your condescending tone when speaking of Prussia, as if I wouldn't have heard of it when anyone who took a high school history class should know about it. I hate being patronized and that was my subtle way of combating your tone in the message. But I didn't want to make it a central theme and risk breaking the rule about courtious behavior (not a direct quote) in the HBFile. Alright? Liz continues: > > > > This was more of the kind of discussion I was looking for! I have > > looked up said posts, but would have appreciated it if you had > > focused more on this than the many invalid examples above. > > > > In summary: I find no similar case for referring to the region as > > Assyria, but do find the Quidditch World Cup posts interesting. bboy_mn again: > > Perhaps we have a problem with word definitions, what I gave you were > not 'examples' but 'illustrations' (I do that a lot). They illustrate > how cultural and social regions are frequently independant of ever > changing political regions. They also illustrate how people can cling > to cultural identities even when the geo-political place no longer > exist, and this illustration holds true whether modern or ancient. Actually, where we really have a problem is this: You claim that time is not a factor in the illustrations, but I believe it is. What we differ on it the importance of time. I believe each 'illustration' shows a fairly recent change, but a _major factor_ in dealing with Assyria is that it was such a long time ago that it doesn't fit under these cases. Therefore, I consider these illustrations not relevant. I know that people can cling to a cultural identity, that's quite obvious and didn't really need to be stated, but I doubt it would still be valid after being gone so many years. (Of course, I have now been told otherwise in the "Assyrians Still Exist" thread and need to research that.) bboy_mn again: > I think my illustrations, now deleted, and this example all point to > the same thing, that a social and culturally defined region is > independant of political boundaries. Yes, they are illustrating the same thing, but they are illustrating a point which I consider invalid. I'm not going to bother really arguing the rest of this post because a) I don't consider these points valid, and b) it is making me more than a little angry at being so obviously patronized. Rowen, who would appreciate a few less illustrations and more points. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 23 20:34:17 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 20:34:17 -0000 Subject: Assyria and Wizardly Geography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99188 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Potioncat: Back when we were all wondering what sort of name "Karkaroff" is and > what it might mean, someone found an Assyrian town or person with a > similar name. It was Biblical and had to do with a battle. > > Someone more adept than me would have to find it though, if anyone is > interested. Any way, it adds to the Assyria connection. Geoff: Was this by any chance Carchemish? It was the Eastern capital of the Hittite Empire and commanded one of the most important fords of the Euphrates. My source quotes it as "a gate to Syria for invading Egyptians and Assyrians to the Tigris-Euphrates valley." There are at least two brief Biblical references: Jeremiah 46:2 which mentions Nebuchadnezzar's crushing defeat of the Pharaoh Neco (605 BC) and a further mention in Isaiah 10:9. From squeakinby at tds.net Sun May 23 21:43:47 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 16:43:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40B11B13.30707@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99189 Steve wrote: > I don't want a 'Harry Dies' ending, but at the same time I could see > it happening. What really bothers me, is not so much Harry dying, as > the out pouring of grief that would follow. JKR might want to do this from an artistic POV but it would probably kill the series as a future classic in the process. Do you go to a movie knowing ahead of time that the main character dies? I was really annoyed when Tom Hanks died in that WWII movie whatever it was I've completely blanked out on it. May have been a fine movie but I wouldn't watch it again or buy it on DVD. Some people just don't want things ending that badly and if you know ahead of time that things don't end well, there are going to be people who won't start the process at all. Killing Harry off is beyond a betrayal to those who have stuck with him thru 7 books, it seems to send a rather grim message. You can work for a good and noble cause and your reward is an early death. It's all too RW if you ask me and no one actually did but still I don't think that's where JKR's taking us. As for an outpouring of grief, it would rival our despair over Princess Diana's death. Jem From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun May 23 21:09:55 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 21:09:55 -0000 Subject: Lily (wasPrank revisited.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99190 > > Renee: > > IMO, Lily certainly isn't lily-white here. Sure, she defended the > victim against his bullies, but if someone is treated unjustly and > you intervene, lack of gratitude and even racial slurs should *not* > cause you to turn your back to them. What Snape says, doesn't make > James's and Sirius's treatment of him any more justified than it > was. Of course, it would take a saint to ignore Snape's reaction > altogether; that Lily pays him back in kind shows she's no saint or > angel but a normal human being. It's what she does next that I find > so disappointing. > > In the first place, her words to James show that her desire to take > him down a notch plays a major role in her decision to intervene. > This makes her indignation look somewhat less righteous than before, > and it makes me suspect it wasn't difficult for her to do something. > Then she leaves, practically begging James to continue his torment > of Snape. After all, how else is he to remain cool in the eyes of > the general public? So he pretends to be unaffected and goes on as > if nothing has happened. (Maybe he actually took Snape's pants off - > it seems unlikely that Lupin suddenly acquired a bit of spine and > took over Lily's part.) Marianne: Am the only one to think that Lily's cataloging of James' faults as a possible indication that she's spent a whole lot of time keeping an eye on him? Knowing that she eventually ended up with James, I couldn't help read that as the passionate outburst of someone who is denying to herself on some level that she is attracted to James, and she fights against that by trying to concentrate on his faults. It reminded me of one of my close friends in high school who used to rant about how awful one particular guy in our class was. Swore up and down how obnoxious and loud and overbearing he was and how she couldn't stand him...And several months later, she simperingly told me they were going to the senior prom together. Marianne From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 21:17:14 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 14:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dan's predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040523211714.78382.qmail@web50006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99191 I guess Daniel Radcliffe Said(LOL): Don't know if I am repeating info here, i have too many messages to read them all - pressures of work, etc.. apologies if so! I was very interested in Dan's opinions on Harry's fate, as quoted to Page at Danradcliffe.co.uk, because I tend to go with this theory. Here's that quote: I think there's going to be something, and I'd like to say before I answer this, that this is completely unfounded. Jo Rowling has told me absolutely nothing I promise, but I think because of the link between Harry and Voldemort's wands, there's going to be something, whereby, Harry, I mean I don't want to cause a big out cry. But I've got really bad feelings that something not so good's going to happen to Harry. Because maybe like if he died that's the only way Voldemort could die as well and so they cancel each other out. I think people are going to go mad when I've said that I'm sure. Or he would become a Quidditch player. It's a happier ending. My reply: That is the viable and only viable theory assuming that Harry kills Voldemort that way. Of course I never say it as a fight of swords. If Voldemort finnally learns to love that would kill him. There is my boring, sappy but sweet ending. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 23 21:21:51 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 21:21:51 -0000 Subject: King's Cross (was Re: Assyria and Wizardly Geography) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz Muir" wrote: Rowen: > What I was referring to was an interview I once heard with JKR. In > the movies, and in real life, King's Cross station doesn't match up > with the description in the books. (I made a point of going there on > my trip to England.) IIRC, in the books, there is a wooden (or > brick) barrier between the platforms 9 and 10. In the actual > station, the two platforms are the sidewalk on opposite sides of the > central railway track, making it very difficult to find any barrier > between them. :) > Geoff: Your posts have triggered off this line of thought. I was last in Kings Cross last year and knew the station well when I lived in London. The station is divided into two sections, the mainline part and the suburban area. The main station has eight platforms (1-8) and there are currently three suburban platforms (9- 11). Platforms 9 and 10 do not share a common platform but have two tracks between them. There is a substantial brick barrier and various offices etc. between 8 and 9. The main line train shed is in two sections, so there is another brick wall between (I think) platforms 4 and 5. Having just taken a close look at the DVD (which I've never really dome before), the opening shot shows Harry and Hagrid walking east (ie towards platform 1) along the bridge which connects platforms 1 and 8. The terminal ends are to the left of them. Harry is then seen walking along platform 4 when he speaks to the guard and moved through to platform 5, the other side of the barrier when he overhears Molly Weasley. As a lifelong railway enthusiast, I always get very cross when films are sloppy over details like this. If you want a map of KX, try: www.networkrailstations.co.uk/pdfs/maps/king.pdf I remember actually being in the station around the time of the release of PS and there were Hogwrats Express banners and platform numbers mounted on platform 9, the most easterly of the suburban plstforms. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 23 21:34:58 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 21:34:58 -0000 Subject: King's Cross (was Re: Assyria and Wizardly Geography) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99193 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Geoff: Having just taken a > close look at the DVD (which I've never really dome before), the > opening shot shows Harry and Hagrid walking east (ie towards platform > 1) along the bridge which connects platforms 1 and 8. The terminal > ends are to the left of them. Geoff again: Replying to my own post, I'm getting my knickers in a twist - reading too many posts too quickly at this time of the evening I think. The bridge shot shows the platform ends on the left hand side - to the right of H and H, so they are moving away from platform 9 towards platform 1. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun May 23 22:07:05 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 22:07:05 -0000 Subject: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: <40B11B13.30707@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99194 > Steve wrote: > > > I don't want a 'Harry Dies' ending, but at the same time I could see > > it happening. What really bothers me, is not so much Harry dying, as > > the out pouring of grief that would follow. Jem: > > JKR might want to do this from an artistic POV but it would probably > kill the series as a future classic in the process. Do you go to a > movie knowing ahead of time that the main character dies? I was really > annoyed when Tom Hanks died in that WWII movie whatever it was I've > completely blanked out on it. May have been a fine movie but I wouldn't > watch it again or buy it on DVD. Meri now: I don't know about Harry's death killing the series as a potential classic. After all, everyone in "All Quiet on the Western Front" dies, and that's one of the biggest classics ever. Almost everyone dies in "The Illiad" and King Arthur dies in most versions of his ledgend, too. And as for that WWII movie that Tom Hanks dies in, I am guessing you mean "Saving Private Ryan", and I have seen that film several times, and not only am I still moved to tears in that last scene every single time I see it, I think that it made sense from a storytelling perspective, as did the main character's death in "Gladiator". Maximus dies every single time I see the movie, but that doesn't keep me from enjoying it. Like I said, (and to bring myself back on-topic) as long as it makes sense from a storytelling perspective, the death of a main character can be okay. Just as long as Harry, you know, doesn't survive the whole Voldemort war only to get hit by a taxi exiting King's Cross after seveth year or comes down with a nasty case of food poisoning from a Pumpkin Pastie. Jem: > Some people just don't want things ending that badly and if you know > ahead of time that things don't end well, there are going to be people > who won't start the process at all. > > Killing Harry off is beyond a betrayal to those who have stuck with him > thru 7 books, it seems to send a rather grim message. You can work for > a good and noble cause and your reward is an early death. It's all too > RW if you ask me and no one actually did but still I don't think that's > where JKR's taking us. Meri again: As someone who just finished reading the first five books last night (and stayed up til 2 am to finish the last four chapters of Order) I don't really see Harry dying as a betrayal to anyone, as long as, like I said, its done in a good storytelling context. I mean, look at it this way: here's this kid, he spends his first year of life living in hiding with his folks, witnesses his parents die at the age of one, spends the next ten years living with abusive relatives, and then goes off to a wizard's school, where his life is perpetually threatened and he is the focus of unwanted attention due to the fact that his parents were murdered by a famous evil wizard. Then, to top it all off, said evil wizard has made it his life's (er, half-life's?) mission to destroy this kid, and this kid, all of fifteen, now has the responsibility of ridding the world of said evil wizard. Now, answer me this: how in the heck is poor, abused, marked man, target on his back Harry supposed to live anything at all resembling a normal life post-grad? He can't. I am someone who desperatly wants to see him live, marry, have six kids, play Quidditch for England, and live to the ripe old age of 175 and even I can admit that the chances of Harry being anything close to normal once the whole LV business is over is slim to none. I want Harry to live, I really really do. But If JKR kills him in some ultimate sacrifice type thing and then he's welcomed to the afterlife by his long lost folks (I weep just thinking about that), I would also be okay. Anyway, don't pelt me with owls, just IMHO. Meri - who for some strange reason has always finished reading OotP sometime between 2-3 in the morning... From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun May 23 22:15:07 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 22:15:07 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99195 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > > Pippin: > > I think JKR has made a great leap forward in good-vs-evil novels. > > She has dared to make the good side morally complex. Unlike > > Tolkien or Star Wars, everyone in the Potterverse does not draw > > the line between good and evil in the same place. The > > characters may not draw the line where Dumbledore would, but, > > JKR seems to be saying, as long as they draw it somewhere, > > and refuse to cross it, Dumbledore is on their side. > > Geoff: > I think that there are plenty of morally complex characters in > Tolkien. There are some who begin on the good side and fall by the > wayside - you could probably include Boromir, Denethor and Saruman in > this lot. Gollum is a singularly complex character and Frodo himmself > almost succumbs at Mount Doom. And Sauron, in an echo of Tom > Riddle/Voldemort perhaps, was originally a Maia of Aule before he was > corrupted by Melkor/Morgoth. And, again, in the Narnia books, what > about Edmund in "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" and Eustace > Scrubb in "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader"? Not such well fleshed out > characters but both drawn towards the evil side. Meri: Also, is Star Wars there's Darth Vader, who starts out good, slowly gets corrupted, spends a lifetime acting evil and redeems himself in the end. And Luke Skywalker, who gets tempted by the Dark Side, and Han Solo and Lando, two former criminals. Meri - astonished at how big of a nerd she really is... From squeakinby at tds.net Sun May 23 23:37:17 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:37:17 -0500 Subject: cauldron cakes Message-ID: <40B135AD.2040208@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99196 This shouldn't be too controversial. What's a cauldron cake? Is it like some English thing that really exists? Is it like a Twinkie or Mr. Whippy (kidding). Is it like a pumpkin pie with 2 crusts? Would a Yank consider "cake" a misnomer the way we don't understanding "pudding"? Is it not a dessert but a savory like a pasty? Is it really cooked in a cauldron or was it in the past but now it's cooked in an oven? Is it like a dumpling or grunt the way that could be cooked over a fire and not necessarily in the oven. But then how would one consume such an item? Especially on a train. And if anyone is really in an explaining mood, what's Spotted Dick? Jem From nakedkali at yahoo.com Sun May 23 22:38:08 2004 From: nakedkali at yahoo.com (Sea Change) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 22:38:08 -0000 Subject: Assyrians still exist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99197 I did write: SC>> In real life, smack dab in the center of California is a city SC>> called Ceres, and a decently large proportion of the people SC>> living there call themselves Assyrian. ... and Rowen responded: R> Sounds interesting and pertinant. It brings up a lot of questions R> for me. Can I find any information about this on the net R> somewhere? ____________ Sea Change responds: Nope, not a clue. This is all information I have learned by talking to real people. I'm told there's a website for the Assyrian homeland but have never bothered to look for it. It's a huge defect in my character that I really don't like these people much (not having met many but kinda not liking something major about every single one of the 5 Assyrians that I have met), and I'm not terribly curious. Try using Chalabi and Ceres and California (and perhaps also Kiwanis or Rotary), and minus for Iraq and Pentagon. The LA Times occasionally runs articles on California's Central Valley, so this might help you research. _______________________ Now, Rowen skeptically continues: R> If it were a cutting, Neville might have said, "My Uncle Algie gave R> it to me. It's part of a plant he got on a trip to Assyria." R> Slightly different meaning there. ____________________ Sea Change responds: I agree my evidence is weak here. I used to work in an orchid greenhouse, whose owner was mad to go collecting. She would definitely take only one or two specimens from the wild, but she would intend to propagate them to sell or give other conservators, years later, not knowing who they might be. Similarly sister's thumb is only yellow-greenish and she loves fuchsias, so I buy new plants with the idea that she might want a cutting years later. I never tell people "I gave her a cutting of 'Ballerina Blau'." I say, "I gave her 'Ballerina Blau' for her birthday.", and let people guess as to whether I spend a fortune to purchase my sister a specimen plant, or am I a cheapskate and grew it to size myself. And, the Mimbulus Mimbletonia may be a slow grower and rather rare, and Uncle Algie could have been cautious and gave it to Neville only *5 years after* he started showing prowess at herbology. Sea Change, who has mastered fuchsias, and is rather into passiflora vines nowadays. Pity I'm most like a Slytherin. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 23 22:59:12 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 22:59:12 -0000 Subject: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: Meri: Now, answer me this: how in the heck is poor, > abused, marked man, target on his back Harry supposed to live > anything at all resembling a normal life post-grad? He can't. I am > someone who desperatly wants to see him live, marry, have six kids, > play Quidditch for England, and live to the ripe old age of 175 and > even I can admit that the chances of Harry being anything close to > normal once the whole LV business is over is slim to none. Geoff: Why not? There are examples of people, famous for one reason or another, who have later managed to stay out of the public eye and live pretty normal lives. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 23 23:13:56 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 23:13:56 -0000 Subject: cauldron cakes In-Reply-To: <40B135AD.2040208@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99199 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: Jem: > This shouldn't be too controversial. What's a cauldron cake? Is it > like some English thing that really exists? I have a suspicion that JKR, if tackled, woukld give the same reply as the White Knight in 'Through the Looking Glass' - "it's my own invention". Jem: > And if anyone is really in an explaining mood, what's Spotted Dick? Geoff: This has actually been covered in a previous thread. The following is pasted across from message 86589... thread "Spotted Dick (was Questionable desserts)", dated 6th December 2003. "Klinkat: > So... what in the name of a name is "Spotted Dick?" And where did > that name come from? I'm guessing something like rice pudding with > raisins? Geoff: Spotted Dick is a traditional light steamed sponge pudding with raisins, currants and suet, served hot and usually eaten with custard or cream. By an odd coincidence, I was out today for lunch with the team from the village computer centre and I nearly ordered Spotted Dick which was on the menu; chocolate pudding won, however. Just remind me when Spotted Dick turns up - is it at Hogwarts, or something rustled up at the Burrow?" Enjoy! From mnaperrone at aol.com Sun May 23 19:42:31 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 19:42:31 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99201 Dumbledore11214 wrote: > > > > Ummm, hate to disturb the Prank again, but we don't know what > exactly > > went on in Sirius' head that night, we don't know whether he was > > happily planning to turn Snape over to werewolf, or scare him > badly. Ava wrote: > OK - either he was aware of the potential consequences, in which > case his behavior was inexcusable, or he wasn't aware, in which case > he was an idiot (even if only 15). And I don't think Sirius is an > idiot. Of course, we have plenty of OotP evidence that he tends to > ignore the practical consequences of his actions, but I can't see > how that makes for a better alternative explanation for his actions. Ally: Ava, I agree with you on this one. There are lots of Sirius apologists when it comes to the prank, and I don't think there's any way to justify it. What would we think if some 15 year old pushed a classmate into the lion enclosure at the zoo and said, it was just a prank? We'd think: that kid's lying and should be in prison; or that kid has serious behavioral issues and needs to be in therapy. Either way, there's something seriously wrong with that kid. I don't doubt that Sirius and Snape had a history or that Snape also engaged in some bad behavior towards the Marauders. But in my mind, no amount of pranks and teasing and hexes justifies a kid engaging in what is basically attempted murder. I'm also not saying that Sirius is a better or worse person than Snape, b/c undoubtedly, they have both made mistakes. But Sirius' prank seems worthy of Draco in its utter arrogance and stupidity. Maybe its that Slytherin upbringing? From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun May 23 21:22:46 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:22:46 -0400 Subject: Tom Riddle's Name (was RE: [HPforGrownups]) In-Reply-To: <45795.127.0.0.1.1085120803.squirrel@www.distantplace.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99202 Hi, I guess I can say I'm a new kid on the block, so to speak, and have really enjoyed reading the myriad of posts I've seen over the past few days. Suffice it to say that I only have about 200 more to read before I'm really current! | From: alina at distantplace.net (Replying to Wanda): | | I don't have my books at hand, but I believe in his conversation | with Harry, | the 16 year old Riddle said something along the lines of his name | being the | only thing his muggle father left him. Come to think of it, maybe he said | that during the graveyard resurrection scene, either way I'm | pretty sure he | said something to that extent. Basically, I think that's the whole | significance of the same father/son name in this case. That Voldemort, for | all his pure-blooded, anti-muggle/mudblood zeal has to go through | life with | a muggle name. [Lee responds]: Remember in COS, the 16-year-old Tom used Harry's wand and, writing out the letters of his full name, scrambled them into: "I Am Lord Voldemort." In my opinion, simply put, Tom decided to make something he desperately hated into something he could use to his advantage...something he could love (if Voldemort could love anything save for power!) :-) | Alina, | who, for all her hatred for Voldemort, derives pleasure from the image of | Malfoy serving the whims of a "mudblood." [Lee, chuckling]: Yes, the ultimate irony, I guess. And magnify that to all the other "pure-blood wizarding families" serving LV...Hmm--something interesting to stimulate the brain cells. P.S.--Any HP people in New Jersey? I live in Madison, and my house would make Petunia cry! :-) Peace, Lee Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun May 23 21:57:32 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:57:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bellatrix killed Sirius!!! wasDumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99203 | From: Mandy [mailto:ExSlytherin at aol.com] | | You are mistaken if you think that Sirius stopped fighting to taunt | and play with Bellatrix. Sirius did shout, " Come on you can do | better than that" during the dual while they were fighting. It is a | classic technique used by some one who is out classed and afraid to | get their opponent angry, so they will make a mistake which can then | taken advantage of. Sirius was desperate and grabbing at straws, | and unfortunately for Sirius Black he underestimated his opponent, | and instead Bellatrix took advantage of his moment of distraction to | throw the deathblow at him. A foolish mistake on Sirius part which, | when you consider his character not at all surprising. [Lee says]: Yes...but the distraction technique isn't only something that might be used by someone who feels outclassed, I think. Perhaps he knew that Bellatrix might be somewhat distractible and not as totally focused as she should have been and tried to take advantage of this. Unfortunately, she launched a surprise at him. Now, this is where I deviate a bit from the "Bellatrix killed Sirius" as an actual occurrence. They were in that room of--uh--souls, I guess one would call it. They were right by the curtain. I am going to postulate that Bellatrix stunned Sirius; yes, he was dern surprised because he probably thought he'd knocked her off of her game. He fell right through the veil and disappeared. Is it possible that once one goes through the veil, one can never return? In a nutshell, my opinion, Sirius dies when he falls through the veil, not from the actual spell imparted by Bellatrix. Okay, so I'm twisted?? I've been told that for years. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun May 23 22:15:15 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:15:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death was Re: ESE!Snape (Was loads of other stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99204 Neri: | One opportunity that immediately comes to mind is the night Arthur | was attacked. Harry and the Weasley kids were alone the whole night | with Sirius, while DD and the rest were busy with helping Arthur and | covering after him. Sirius brought everybody butterbeer. He could | have put a sleeping drought inside it so he'll have no problem with | the Weasleys, then kill Harry and get out of the house to find LV and | collect his prize, or he could bring drugged Harry to LV. I'd think | Voldy would have been ready to blow Sirius' cover for this. [Lee shakes head]: Uh--if Sirius were working for LV, why, O why would he then be so concerned that Harry's name had been pulled from the Goblet in GOF? And I really don't think it was a put-on. And, if it were, then Dumbledor's trust would have been betrayed, too. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 23:36:31 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 23:36:31 -0000 Subject: cauldron cakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99205 > Geoff: > Spotted Dick is a traditional light steamed sponge pudding with > raisins, currants and suet, served hot and usually eaten with custard > or cream. > > By an odd coincidence, I was out today for lunch with the team from > the village computer centre and I nearly ordered Spotted Dick which > was on the menu; chocolate pudding won, however. Just remind me when > Spotted Dick turns up - is it at Hogwarts, or something rustled up at > the Burrow?" In GOF the chapter "The Triwizard Tournament" towards the end of the start of term feast. Pg. 183 am. ed. "Treacle tart, Hermione!" said Ron, deliberately wafting its smell toward her. "Spotted dick, look! Chocolate gateau!" Snow From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 11:49:59 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 04:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040523114959.52285.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99206 Julie: I like your ideas about becoming the heir once he discovered the chamber. Almost like finding a will leaving all possessions to "the one who finds this will." Tom Riddle was a brilliant student (according to Dumbdledore). He certainly could have put the clues together. Julie - who is from Arkansas, close enough to Texas. When I lived in Europe, I grew tired of explaining where AR was so I said I lived "Five hours from Dallas." Does that count? LOL I cannot wait until we find out how he figured out to even start looking for something that no one thought existed and probably wasn't even thought about for many, many years. No one, from what I can tell, knew about it in Harry's class, so I want to know how he even knew to start looking. Moonmyyst (who lives IN Dallas - Georgia that is) From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Mon May 24 00:02:30 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 19:02:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The permanent problem with Slytherin House References: Message-ID: <000c01c44122$6871d2c0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99207 Nora: The Sorting Hat tells us in OotP that Slytherin only wanted students of the finest ancestry. In other words, he not only distrusted the Muggleborn (told us in CoS), but he considered blood a real requirement to be a student of his. Plain and simple, this is prejudiced. ...Discrimination by ancestry is an inherent part of the founding ideology of Slytherin House, and it lingers strongly to this day. This is not to say that all Slytherins are necessarily evil--but so far as they identify fully with this ideology, I have to conclude that are evil in that respect. Silverthorne: Okay, I can see where that is easy to assume--after all, JKR has only given us concrete evidence of the 'negative' Slytherins..and it's probably 100% intentional. After all, as with the arguements about Sirius/Snape, someone has to have the 'black' part of the black and white veiwpoint pinned firmly on them. I won't argue whether or not Salazar intended *only* pure blooded, ambitious (dare we even say back stabbing) students to be in his house--I'm sure he did. It was after all what caused him and the other three to break it off...but I have to say that unless JKR is going back on her own themes of "just because you're *this label*, it doesn't mean you are *this way*. And if she is, well, then she's shot herself in the foot a bit I think by making *all* of Slytherin 'bad' (prejudiced in this case). However, I tend to think that despite what Salazar wanted, he had the other three founders *and* the Hat's ideals to contend with...which means that despite all his efforts, Salazar is going to end up with students in 'his' house that do not meet some of his requirements, whether it be evil, backstabbing, overt ambition...or the snobbishness of depending on 'Blood Purity'....centuries have passed, and so has Salazar's grasp on the House--what keeps it where it is now is *not* 'his' ideals--but those of the pure blooded families living in the past....and I doubt, even though all we've seen is the worst of the house, that *all* slyths are 'evil' and 'prejudiced'.--that assumption on the part of outsiders is just as prejudiced in the other direction as the supposed Slytherin ideal...and it makes me wonder if that's what helped feed into the hatred and rivalry between the five boys we so love to anaylize and try to figure out just who was right, wrong, mean, justified, whatever (as well as other non-slyths in regards to how they treated and interacted with Slyths over the years). I mean, geez, we're STILL having problems with the homosexuality issue even though in theory, we're 'getting better' about it. Or try RL Wiccan practitioners--I still get called either a Satanist or delusional--and the people saying that have no clue what they're putting down. I'm sure in some cases (Rowling's insistence on showing us only 'bad' slyths not-with-standing), there are Slyths that do not deserve the rep their founder and his **fanatical** supporters have created over the centuries... Nora: I used to not think that the blood issue was so major in the Potterverse, but I'm more and more convinced that it *is* the driving ideology of the current conflict--and what it will take is, in part, Slytherins willing to repudiate the ideology of their House. Slytherin House must cease to exist. :) Silverthorne: No, it doesn't need to cease to exist--it needs a damned face lift...^^ And probably some social counciling...lol. I do have to agree though that two things needs to happen ASAP--the pure blood idealogy needs to take a freaking hike, first of all--I have to agree full heartedly with that. Just because you happen to be 'royalty', does not make you 'god'. As soon as we can get a generation of Slyths that can get that predominantly into their head, we'll be okay...AND the other houses need to back off and give those Slyths that would be willing to step out of their box a chance--I dont know about any of you, but most teens aren't going to step out of their own stereotypes for the sake of a bunch of other kids who hate them anyway....I know that I sure as hell wasn't interested in 'proving them wrong' when they were always picking on me because I wasn't like them in school. My first thought was 'hell with them--I'll stick with my few friends who really know what I'm like--and it's nothing like what those bozos over there are thinking...' Incidently, anyone notice that our favorite Slyth to hate has only ever once indulged in 'Mixed blood' bashing--and that was when he was young and suspended upside down in an embarrasing situation? People say and do a lot of things they don't mean when they feel hurt, trapped and completely shat upon...something to think about for all of you arguing the validity of whether or not Snape's (or any Slyths) feelings at that moment were valid...he's still human, guys. Maybe not the nicest human in the world even then, but if you think the Fab Four giving him the treatment they did would have taught him a damned thing other then to continue to be hateful right back, you're out of your mind. Hate breeds hate--and it's never right, no matter *how* much you think the other person 'deserves' it. It's not just the Slyths that will have to change, guys--it's the whole freaking system. Anne/Silverthorne From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 00:09:27 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 00:09:27 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > > Ally: > > > I don't doubt that Sirius and Snape had a history or that Snape also > engaged in some bad behavior towards the Marauders. But in my mind, > no amount of pranks and teasing and hexes justifies a kid engaging in > what is basically attempted murder. When I know for sure that Sirius PLANNED to get Snape killed, I will absolutely agree with you that it was an attempted murder. For now, I will reserve judgment on that. No amount of prank and teasing and hexes will justify what? I was not speculating that whatever Snape supposedly did to Sirius or James was anything trivial. Again, if he got Regulus involved with the Death Eaters, I can see Sirius getting incredibly angry and understandably so. Also nowhere in my posts I said that Prank was justifiable, I said that there are could be UNDERSTANDABLE reasons of why Sirius got irrationally angry. I believe that those reasons, which we are not aware of yet will allow me to forgive Sirius for what he did, not justify it by any means. :o) Alla From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon May 24 00:12:13 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 00:12:13 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Name (was RE: [HPforGrownups]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99209 > | Alina, > | who, for all her hatred for Voldemort, derives pleasure from the image of > | Malfoy serving the whims of a "mudblood." > > [Lee, chuckling]: Yes, the ultimate irony, I guess. And magnify that to all > the other "pure-blood wizarding families" serving LV...Hmm--something > interesting to stimulate the brain cells. > > P.S.--Any HP people in New Jersey? I live in Madison, and my house would > make Petunia cry! :-) > Antosha: Would she be crying with joy or in dismay, as she would at my office? I wonder if Harry's 'outing' of LV's unclean lineage in the Dept. of Mysteries battle is going to have repercussions? "?Did you know he?s a half?blood too?? said Harry recklessly. Hermione gave a little moan in his ear. ?Voldemort? Yeah, his mother was a witch but his dad was a Muggle ? or has he been telling you lot he?s pure?blood?? " OotP, Ch. 34, "The Department of Mysteries" From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 00:26:55 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 00:26:55 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99210 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: > I've been thinking about why JKR would be a little worried about the > Mugglenet moderators finding their spiritual home in Slytherin--and > finally, I think the reasons are obvious. :) > > Most all who identify with Slytherin identify with the cunning and > ambitious descriptions, which can be either good or bad--let's be > fair and call them neutral. But Slytherin has another qualifier > which **cannot be whitewashed out of existence**. > > The Sorting Hat tells us in OotP that Slytherin only wanted students > of the finest ancestry. In other words, he not only distrusted the > Muggleborn (told us in CoS), but he considered blood a real > requirement to be a student of his. > > Plain and simple, this is prejudiced. I've seen people try to argue > around the Pureblood thing not being bigoted/discriminatory. If > anyone here knows a good explication of this position, send it to me- > -every single one I've read has ducked the issue of essentialism. > > Discrimination by ancestry is an inherent part of the founding > ideology of Slytherin House, and it lingers strongly to this day. > This is not to say that all Slytherins are necessarily evil--but so > far as they identify fully with this ideology, I have to conclude > that are evil in that respect. > > Slytherin demands specific qualities AND the blood requirement. > Ravenclaw and Gryffindor wanted specific qualities in their > students, but made no blood requirement. Hufflepuff comes out on > the completely opposite end, with no requirements in any category. > > I used to not think that the blood issue was so major in the > Potterverse, but I'm more and more convinced that it *is* the > driving ideology of the current conflict--and what it will take is, > in part, Slytherins willing to repudiate the ideology of their > House. > > Slytherin House must cease to exist. :) > > -Nora wants to hear feedback on this, as it's extrapolation, but > seems fairly solid To tell you the truth, I was a little bit dissapointed with JKR recent statement that she was concerned about mugglenet moderators, who like Slytherin House. Yes, the main problem with Slytherin House is their "pureblood" bigotry and it is clear cut prejudice to me, but, but, but... Supposedly Sorting Hat song hints at possible reconciliation between Gryffs and Slyths, right? I am not so sure anymore. Nobody can suspect me of being great lover of Slytherin House, but it is dissappointing to consider that JKR may state that the age of eleven children who get sorted to Slytherin House are evil. (I am getting back to another suspicion of mine that Snape was a Gryffindor, by the way) Are we heading to New and Improved Slytherin House? Purebloods better than others will certainly have to go at the end, but what else will have to go? I suspect that all houses will cease to exist at the end. Alla From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon May 24 00:31:41 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 00:31:41 -0000 Subject: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" > wrote: > > Meri: > Now, answer me this: how in the heck is poor, > > abused, marked man, target on his back Harry supposed to live > > anything at all resembling a normal life post-grad? He can't. I am > > someone who desperatly wants to see him live, marry, have six kids, > > play Quidditch for England, and live to the ripe old age of 175 and > > even I can admit that the chances of Harry being anything close to > > normal once the whole LV business is over is slim to none. > > Geoff: > Why not? There are examples of people, famous for one reason or > another, who have later managed to stay out of the public eye and > live pretty normal lives. Fair point, Geoff, but remember, Harry's not just famous. He's a marked man, as he describes himself at the end of Order. He also feels at the end of that book as if he were completely seperate from the rest of his classmates allready. So how do you imagine he'll feel once he's been at the center of a violent struggle in which he is the only hope for the survival of an entire people? I, personally, was shocked at what a bad place Harry was at mentally at the beginning of book 5, so I don't imagine that JKR would pull any punches when it comes to Harry coming to terms with the implications of the prophecy. And let's face it, if he suceeds in vanquishing LV (and I am sure he will) his birthday will probably be renamed "Boy Who Lived Day" (as McGonogall suggested in SS) so, unless he goes to live as a Muggle, Harry will never really be able to slip out of the public eye. And perhaps all this means is that Harry's post Hogwarts life will be just as extraordinary as his life in school: cheif auror, world famous Quidditch player, international motivational speaker...who knows? Anyway, I just made my above arguements to show why I would understand if JKR killed Harry at the end of book seven. Anyhow, two knuts worth... Meri - who wonders if book six will be called "Harry Potter and the Depths of Despair" From BrwNeil at aol.com Mon May 24 00:44:47 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 20:44:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The permanent problem with Slytherin House Message-ID: <3e.3f5fedcf.2de29f7f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99212 In a message dated 5/23/2004 7:38:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nrenka at yahoo.com writes: Slytherin demands specific qualities AND the blood requirement. Ravenclaw and Gryffindor wanted specific qualities in their students, but made no blood requirement. Hufflepuff comes out on the completely opposite end, with no requirements in any category. I used to not think that the blood issue was so major in the Potterverse, but I'm more and more convinced that it *is* the driving ideology of the current conflict--and what it will take is, in part, Slytherins willing to repudiate the ideology of their House. Slytherin House must cease to exist. :) The issue of blood brings up two interesting topics. One: Voldemort now has Harry's blood in him. What affect and how important is this. Two: The sorting head was (using a modern term) programed to sort students into proper houses. One would think that based on Salazar's requirements that only purebloods would ever get into Slytherin. Yet Tom Riddle is certainly a big exception. Was this because he was the heir of Slytherin? Did the hat know this? Have there been other exceptions? Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 00:47:46 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 00:47:46 -0000 Subject: Lily. Was: Prank revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99213 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee" wrote: > Renee: > > IMO, Lily certainly isn't lily-white here. Sure, she defended the > victim against his bullies, but if someone is treated unjustly and > you intervene, lack of gratitude and even racial slurs should *not* > cause you to turn your back to them. Lack of gratitude should not cause you turn your back on the person, you are trying to save, I agree with you. I strongly disagree with you about racial slurs though. If I am helping someone, I don't expect their gratitude. But I don't think I deserve ANY negative reaction either. I happen to associate the word "mudblood" with one VERY degrating word for jews in the soviet union. I can tell you with absolute certainty that if the person I was helping with anything would call me that word, that would be the end of my help. Period. Any sympathy I would feel for that person would dissappear in a blink of an eye. What Snape says, doesn't make > James's and Sirius's treatment of him any more justified than it > was. Of course, it would take a saint to ignore Snape's reaction > altogether; that Lily pays him back in kind shows she's no saint or > angel but a normal human being. It's what she does next that I find > so disappointing. > > In the first place, her words to James show that her desire to take > him down a notch plays a major role in her decision to intervene. > This makes her indignation look somewhat less righteous than before, > and it makes me suspect it wasn't difficult for her to do something. > Then she leaves, practically begging James to continue his torment > of Snape. After all, how else is he to remain cool in the eyes of > the general public? So he pretends to be unaffected and goes on as > if nothing has happened. (Maybe he actually took Snape's pants off - > it seems unlikely that Lupin suddenly acquired a bit of spine and > took over Lily's part.) > > Would James have turned Snape upside down again if Lily had stayed, > without defending Snape verbally, yet showing she wasn't going to > abandon her responsibility as a prefect? I don't think so. But she > does leave Snape to his fate. To me, this almost brings Lily down to > the level of the other actors in this drama. Though I'm not sure if > this is what JKR intended. > > Renee Did Lily have other reasons for interfering? As Marianne argued very well, she could have been. Especially due tot he fact that she ended up with James at the end. She must have kept really close eye on him. :o) The question I want to ask - does it really matter? For whatever reasons she wanted to help. She interfered. Snape called her the most degrating word possible in the WW as a gratitude. I perfectly understand why she walked away. She might have had "a saving people thing", but to me it is a GOOD thing. I think if I am in trouble, I would definitely prefer the person, who passes by to help me, instead of walking away. Even if the only reason the person would help is because he/she has a "hero complex" That is why I could never understand why people argue that "saving people thing" is a bad quality of Harry's character. Alla From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 00:47:26 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: <3e.3f5fedcf.2de29f7f@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040524004726.45253.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99214 --- BrwNeil at aol.com wrote: > Slytherin House must cease to exist. :) I think all houses must cease to exist. The sorting hat says houses are bad, and I trust it. ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains Claim yours for only $14.70/year http://smallbusiness.promotions.yahoo.com/offer From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 24 01:07:43 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 01:07:43 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99215 Alla: > No amount of prank and teasing and hexes will justify what? > > I was not speculating that whatever Snape supposedly did to Sirius or James was anything trivial. Again, if he got Regulus involved with the Death Eaters, I can see Sirius getting incredibly angry and understandably so.< Er, Sirius thought his parents would have thought Regulus was "a right little hero" for joining the Death Eaters, and he never even knew that Snape was involved with them until GoF. So whatever Sirius had against Snape, it couldn't have been that. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 01:14:57 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 01:14:57 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99216 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Alla: > > No amount of prank and teasing and hexes will justify what? > > > > I was not speculating that whatever Snape supposedly did to > Sirius or James was anything trivial. Again, if he got Regulus > involved with the Death Eaters, I can see Sirius getting incredibly > angry and understandably so.< > > Er, Sirius thought his parents would have thought Regulus was > "a right little hero" for joining the Death Eaters, and he never even > knew that Snape was involved with them until GoF. So whatever > Sirius had against Snape, it couldn't have been that. > > Pippin No matter what Sirius' parents thought about Regilus joining, Sirius' reaction was probably very different, because he did not share his parents values and maybe he still loved his little brother at that time and did not want him to join. But you are right. Sirius did seem surprised in GoF. Alla From darkthirty at shaw.ca Mon May 24 01:24:00 2004 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (dan) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 01:24:00 -0000 Subject: there are SHIPs and there are SHIPs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99217 Well, what I mean is, we can SHIP as a point of contention, or rather, as an active choosing ourselves, that is, acting out how we would work things out, or we can ship according to what we gather Rowling SHIPs (if at all) - but - if we do both, I think they don't have to agree. I remember a really good fan fiction, which I've forgotten the name of, where Hermione goes off somewhere to develop her "empathetic" powers under the tutelage of some witch on a remote island. It was well written, and fun to read, even if it had nothing to do with the Hermione I got from the books. It was, as far as I could tell, an expression of the first kind of SHIP. Not exactly A/U - there's a difference - but alternate personality, perhaps (though we could argue the tendancies are latent in the Rowling characters, and we just move those tendancies out). Myself, I have long thought there was a kind of complex, latent bond between Harry and Hermione, and that Ron's role, in terms of that bond, anyway, was intermediary. As in PS, Hermione must leave Harry at some point and return to look after Ron. A foreshadowing, say. That is, the tension between Ron and Hermione so broadly spoken of in the story is in fact partly a result of the much more unsettling tension between Harry and Hermione. So unsettling that it takes the form of projection - both projecting onto Ron - Harry his own interest in Hermione, and Hermione her own misgivings about potentially being with Harry. But, my chosen SHIP is Luna, for entirely different reasons. Starting from the moment they share after Harry's sit down by the lake at the end of OOP, where he faces the lake as if he were facing mute fate/history/earth, and working backwards through the book, I have "decided" that The Room is "out here", that is, the RW in the meta sense, and that Luna Lovegood is somehow "from here" - her appearance signals the beginning of the resolution of the series - whether or not she in fact somehow embodies that resolution I can't say. I may go into this in detail, if anyone wants me to. Let's just say that I see the whole series as a kind of escape from the closet - not of homosexuality, but, in fact, literally. At any rate, what I am saying about SHIPs is that there seem to be two main kinds, and different kinds of supporting arguements or whatnot for each of them. Often, when I'm expressing points about the series, or reading other's posts, it's as if the two are working together in some way, not distinct from each other. The potential we identify in the characters to be something they do not at present seem to be arises from Rowling's tendancy to make possession, impersonation, or self-transformation in some way key to every book - polyjuice, animagi, metamorphmagi, possession (of Quirrell) or mental coercion by telepathy. She encourages us to SHIP away, the coniver! We see potential for change/transformation/alteration everywhere. So, if someone asked me who Harry would "be with" (if he survived, which he won't) I'd say Hermione, but if they asked who, in the best of all possible outcomes, he would be with (though even there he'd not survive) I'd say Luna. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 01:41:13 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 01:41:13 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99218 > Alla wrote: Again, if he got Regulus involved with the Death Eaters, I can see Sirius getting incredibly angry and understandably so. Pippin wrote: > Er, Sirius thought his parents would have thought Regulus was > "a right little hero" for joining the Death Eaters, and he never even > knew that Snape was involved with them until GoF. So whatever > Sirius had against Snape, it couldn't have been that. > Potioncat: I'm lost here! Is the Snape recruiting Regulus a theory or is it from canon? I've seen it mentioned in the posts a lot recently. Potioncat: who knows Snape's twins have toy wands but no canon. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 01:43:05 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 01:43:05 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99219 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > Alla wrote: > Again, if he got Regulus involved with the Death Eaters, I can see > Sirius getting incredibly angry and understandably so. > > > Pippin wrote: > > Er, Sirius thought his parents would have thought Regulus was > > "a right little hero" for joining the Death Eaters, and he never > even > > knew that Snape was involved with them until GoF. So whatever > > Sirius had against Snape, it couldn't have been that. > > > > > Potioncat: > I'm lost here! Is the Snape recruiting Regulus a theory or is it > from canon? I've seen it mentioned in the posts a lot recently. > > Potioncat: who knows Snape's twins have toy wands but no canon. No, it is a speculation, as far as I know, but the one I quite like. :o) Alla, who apologises for one - liner. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 24 02:06:29 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 02:06:29 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99220 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > > Pippin: > > I think JKR has made a great leap forward in good-vs-evil novels. She has dared to make the good side morally complex. Unlike Tolkien or Star Wars << > Geoff: > I think that there are plenty of morally complex characters in > Tolkien. . And, again, in the Narnia books, what about Edmund in "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" and Eustace Scrubb in "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader"? Not such well fleshed out characters but both drawn towards the evil side.< I didn't explain that well. I don't mean that the characters in Tolkien, Lewis and Star Wars don't struggle with moral issues. What I mean is that when Aragorn says, 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men,' nobody thinks he's talking nonsense. And a similar sort of universal morality prevails in the Star Wars movies: the Jedi have been upholding one ideal of peace and freedom accepted across the galaxy for thousands of years But Rowling's world doesn't have that kind of unity. Pippin From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon May 24 02:59:23 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 02:59:23 -0000 Subject: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99221 Geoff: Why not? There are examples of people, famous for one reason or another, who have later managed to stay out of the public eye and live pretty normal lives. Meri: Fair point, Geoff, but remember, Harry's not just famous. He's a marked man, as he describes himself at the end of Order. He also feels at the end of that book as if he were completely seperate from the rest of his classmates allready. So how do you imagine he'll feel once he's been at the center of a violent struggle in which he is the only hope for the survival of an entire people? Bookworm : Voldemort marked Harry; once Voldemort is gone/defeated/vanquished Harry won't be marked any more. And while Harry will be at the center of the struggle, I suspect that there will be so many friends and allies who help him get there, that he will be one hero among many. He feels alone now but I think that will change when he learns to trust others to help him. Ravenclaw Bookworm From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon May 24 03:28:40 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 03:28:40 -0000 Subject: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: <40B11B13.30707@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99222 Steve wrote: > > >I don't want a 'Harry Dies' ending,but at the same time I could see > >it happening. What really bothers me,is not so much Harry dying, as > > the out pouring of grief that would follow. Then Jem replied: > JKR might want to do this from an artistic POV but it would probably > kill the series as a future classic in the process. Do you go to a > movie knowing ahead of time that the main character dies? > Some people just don't want things ending that badly and if you know > ahead of time that things don't end well, there are going to be > people who won't start the process at all. Eustace_Scrubb: I'm sure you're right about some potential future readers not wanting to start the series if they know that Harry will not survive the last book. >From a writing-business point of view, JKR might wish to do away with Harry. After all, she has lived with the character for at least 6 or 7 years longer than any of us readers. Like Conan Doyle, she may wish to escape her most famous creation once she's written the last word of the last chapter of book 7. Unlike Conan Doyle, she's probably well enough off (he wasn't richer than King Edward VII was he?) to follow through if that's what she wants to do. Especially since it could make perfect sense from a literary standpoint, too. Jem again: > Killing Harry off is beyond a betrayal to those who have stuck with > him thru 7 books, it seems to send a rather grim message. You can > work for a good and noble cause and your reward is an early death. > It's all tooRW if you ask me and no one actually did but still I > don't think that's where JKR's taking us. Eustace_Scrubb: Alas, the "real world" and fantasy literature both feature many who give their lives or at least undergo great suffering for the good and noble cause. If Harry's death (and frankly, I don't expect him to die) comes as a result of the completion of his quest, then I couldn't complain about JKR's writing it that way. Although the following comes from Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens rather than Tolkien, I think Sam's speech from the _Two Towers_ movie defines the potential outcome of Harry's story for me too: "It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened. But in the end, it's only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something... Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back only they didn't. They kept going. Because they were holding on to something...there's some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it's worth fighting for." Of course, Frodo doesn't die, but he's so scarred by his quest that he can't stay in Middle-earth. Again, I don't think Harry will die but at some point I think he'll decide that he's willing to do so if that's what it takes to defeat Voldemort for good. It's all in his choices. If he chooses not to turn back even when he can, even when he doesn't want to know the end, then the HP story has a chance to be one of the "great stories...the ones that really mattered." Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon May 24 03:33:54 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 03:33:54 -0000 Subject: Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99223 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > > > wrote: > > > > Pippin: > > > I think JKR has made a great leap forward in good-vs-evil > novels. She has dared to make the good side morally complex. > Unlike Tolkien or Star Wars << > > > Geoff: > > I think that there are plenty of morally complex characters in > > Tolkien. . And, again, in the Narnia books, > what about Edmund in "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" > and Eustace Scrubb in "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader"? Not > such well fleshed out characters but both drawn towards the evil > side.< > > I didn't explain that well. I don't mean that the characters in > Tolkien, Lewis and Star Wars don't struggle with moral issues. > What I mean is that when Aragorn says, 'Good and ill have not > changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves > and Dwarves and another among Men,' nobody thinks he's > talking nonsense. And a similar sort of universal morality > prevails in the Star Wars movies: the Jedi have been upholding > one ideal of peace and freedom accepted across the galaxy for > thousands of years > > But Rowling's world doesn't have that kind of unity. > > Pippin Antosha: This is an excellent point. I think this is why we're having arguments about ESE!Whomever, the Good Slytherin, whether Snape is a good guy or not, etc. These novels--unlike those of Tolkien and Lewis--are humanist. They approach questions of Good and Evil not as abstract absolutes, but as parts of the human equation. For all that she is a Christian--and I don't think a humanistic view is incompatible with that--JKR is interested in the characters working out their problems, not in having the mouths of the gods lay down the law. Even Dumbledore's end-of-book revelations aren't deus ex machina revelations of right and wrong; they're simply revelations of the unknown causes of much of what's happening. (I'm getting kind of tired of those, btw. If, as many surmise, DD bites the dust--thanks to the Illiad for that phrase--at the end of book six, this will be the one happy by-product.) Oh, and it seems to me that part of what sets the original Star Wars head-and-shoulders above the 'new' trilogy is the humanism in the aspect of Han Solo. He made that series-- you cared more about the rest of them, you believed in their struggles, because of his moral ambivalence. It's what makes all of the Dashiell Hammett/Raymond Chandler mysteries so compelling. You knew you liked the hero, but you were never REALLY sure he'd do the right thing--or if he (or you) were entirely certain what the right thing was. From kkearney at students.miami.edu Mon May 24 03:49:36 2004 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 03:49:36 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99224 Nora wrote: > The Sorting Hat tells us in OotP that Slytherin only wanted students > of the finest ancestry. In other words, he not only distrusted the > Muggleborn (told us in CoS), but he considered blood a real > requirement to be a student of his. > > Plain and simple, this is prejudiced. I've seen people try to argue > around the Pureblood thing not being bigoted/discriminatory. If > anyone here knows a good explication of this position, send it to me- > -every single one I've read has ducked the issue of essentialism. I believe the pureblood idea started as one of self-preservation. The Wizarding World originally decided to go into hiding because, magic powers or no, they were losing the battle to magic-fearing Muggles. By accepting Muggle-born witches and wizards into their society, the Wizarding World is keeping open a path between themselves and this potential danger. If the Wizarding World became exclusive, allowing no non-legacy members, then eventually they could become completely cut off from the Muggle world, and thus be ensured safety from it. I believe this was Slytherin's original motivation, rather one of unfounded prejudice. Which doesn't make the idea right, but it does seem more understandable. Based on the Sorting Hat's most recent song, it seems that all the founders except Ms. Hufflepuff wanted to exclude a portion of young witches and wizards from the school. Slytherin wanted only purebloods, of course. What about the others? Gryffindor wanted only those "with brave deeds to their name". Not brave young witches and wizards, or those with the potential for bravery, but those with brave deeds to their name. I think this means one of two things. One, the child has already proven his- or herself with a brave deed of some sort. Unlikey, before the age of eleven. Which leaves a second possiblity: a brave deed has already been committed by someone of the same name, i.e. an ancestor of the young witch or wizard. What's that? Gryffindor wanted to choose pupils on the basis of their ancestry? Inconceivable! And then there's Ravenclaw, who wanted only those "whose intelligence is surest". Hmm, can I twist this one to be ancestry-related? Of course. Again, the line doesn't specify that the child be intelligent, but rather that intelligence is a strong possiblity, either now or in the future. Now what would one use to determine whether or not a child had the potential to excel? Even if you don't want to accept the idea that Gryffindor and Ravenclaw discriminated on the basis of ancestry, it's seems pretty obvious that they did disciminate, just as Slytherin did. Does that mean that all students except Hufflepuffs are doomed to be horrible, disciminating people? Well, according to you... Nora again: > Discrimination by ancestry is an inherent part of the founding > ideology of Slytherin House, and it lingers strongly to this day. > This is not to say that all Slytherins are necessarily evil--but so > far as they identify fully with this ideology, I have to conclude > that are evil in that respect. I don't remember any evidence that says all Slytherins share this ideology. Nowhere does Slytherin say he wanted only those who respected only purebloods. He simply wanted purebloods. I think it's very possible that there are ambitious, pureblooded wizards who were sorted into Slytherin on the basis of these two qualities but who do not share the idea that this makes them superior to their classmates. We can't judge everyone by the company they keep, especially when said company is forced upon them by the sorting process. That said, what the founders wanted and how the hat currently interprets those ideas seem to be quite different. Tom Riddle ended up in Slytherin house, despite his mixed blood. Neville Longbottom, who has hardly shown any magical ability, much less accomplished brave deeds in his first ten years of life, ends up in Gryffindor, as does Ron, who also hasn't shown any signs of heroism yet and doesn't even have any parental brave deeds to gain him acceptance. Hermione shows obvious signs of intelligence well before being sorted, and yet ends up in Gryffindor rather than Ravenclaw. Perhaps the current Hogwarts students aren't really as closely tied to the ideologies of their house's founders as some think? Nora: > I used to not think that the blood issue was so major in the > Potterverse, but I'm more and more convinced that it *is* the > driving ideology of the current conflict--and what it will take is, > in part, Slytherins willing to repudiate the ideology of their > House. > > Slytherin House must cease to exist. :) Does removing the label of a bottle change the poison inside? Getting rid of Slytherin House won't change the problem. Sure, the truly prejudiced might have to work a little harder to find those who share their ideology. But find them they will. The problem of prejudice is much more deeply rooted than some silly school label, and will be much harder to kill than simply eliminating a house. Not only must the Houses themselves be eliminated, so must the idea of categorizing people based upon singular traits, and judging people based solely on a label bestowed at the age of eleven. -Corinth From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 04:02:40 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 04:02:40 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Lily (Was: Re: another LV - Riddle question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99225 Lady Macbeth wrote: I've been of the opinion that Lily was in Gryffindor HOUSE, but was a DESCENDANT of Slytherin. I'm thinking that both of Lily's parents were squibs, and that the family had possibly been non-magical so long that the magical world forgot about that branch. Carol: While I agree that there's a Squib or two in Lily's background, I don't think either of her parents is a Squib because a Squib (to quote JKR) is "the nonmagical child of magical parents." Such a person would not refer to him or herself as a Muggle. (A Squib passing as a Muggle is another ballgame that I don't want to get into.) As I understand it, based on this definition, it would take only one generation for Squibs to become Muggles. That is, if two Squibs had a nonmagical child, that child would be a Muggle (the nonmagical child of nonmagical parents). The same would be true if a Squib married a Muggle: two nonmagical parents producing a nonmagical child would make the child a Muggle. So, IMO, "a long line of Squibs" is a contradiction in terms or an impossibility. But I agree that the magical world would quickly lose sight of such people. There'd be no record in the MoM of their marriage or their children, and any magical Evanses would be blissfully unaware of their Muggle relatives until one of them produced a Muggle-born Witch or Wizard like Lily. Another point: Squibs are very rare, and it would be difficult to sustain a "line" of them even if it were possible to do so (and I don't think it is). I would hope, if I were a young Squib, to marry a Wizard and have children with magical powers, but I would probably end up passing as a Muggle and having Muggle children. Carol, who still hopes that Mark Evans is a distant cousin of Harry's, another Evans Muggle-born like Lily, and the grandchild or great-grandchild of an Evans Squib From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 04:31:29 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 04:31:29 -0000 Subject: Nott, Malfoy and Narcissa. Re: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > > Carol: > > Good theory. But as Potioncat and others noted, that leaves > >the motherless Theo without a parent. Theo taken in by a > >kindly Narcissa? That doesn't fit well with what we've seen of her, > >but since young Nott is a pureblood, at least it wouldn't degrade > >her (in her view) to show him some kindness. > > > Mandy here: > I'm interested in how you can make that particular judgment of > Narcissa when we know so little about her, and what we do know > actually points to her being a kindly, loving mother toward her son > Draco. Carol: As far as Draco is concerned, her behavior could as easily be called indulgent as loving. And as you admit (in a part fo your post that I snipped), she certainly shares her husband's pureblood prejudices (and has apparently helped pass them on to her son). I'm not suggesting that she joined her husband in Muggle-baiting at the QWC, but I doubt that she disapproved of Lucius's behavior. But I'm basing my judgment on the fact that Kreacher went to Narcissa as the one Black (other than the imprisoned Bellatrix) that he could still respect (meaning that she shared Mrs. Black's views of propriety), that Kreacher gave her information about Sirius and Harry that he knew could be used against both of them, and that "the Malfoys" (not just Lucius) made sure that information reached Voldemort. See Harry's conversation with Dumbledore at the end of OoP, which unfortunately I don't have time to quote. There's also Dobby's reference to his "masters" in CoS as "bad Dark wizards." Obvously one of the "masters" is Lucius, but it clearly includes at least one other person. If only one other person is meant, IMO it's more likely to be the adult who is Dobby's co-owner than her twelve-year-old son. Most likely, though, Dobby was including the whole Malfoy family in his unflattering description. Given Narcissa's nose-in-the-air behavior at the QWC, I doubt that she treated Dobby any better than Lucius did. Harsh treatment of her servant, pureblood views, and expressed or tacit approval of Lucius's little plan to return Diary!Tom to Hogwarts would probably be enough to class her as a "Dark wizard" in Dobby's view. But there could be more to her than just the passive partner of a Death Eater. I very much doubt, though, that she's on the side of Good. Carol, who thinks Narcissa is a Black through and through and wonders if she'll bribe someone to spring Lucius from Azkaban From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 05:28:43 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 05:28:43 -0000 Subject: Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99229 Potioncat wrote: In American English a headline that read "Fudge Ran Out of Town" would mean that the townspeople ran him out, or more likely here, he was forced out of office. Dave responded: Not to quibble (OK, yes, it is, but....) but if he were forced out of office and the Ministry (and town) wouldn't the headline be "Fudge Run Out of Town"? Of course, "Fudge Ran Out of Town" could go either way (on a rail, or uder his own steam). Carol adds: This is getting dangerously off-topic and I don't want to annoy the List Elves, but I have to step in. "Fudge Ran Out of Town" probably would not be a headline in any paper. If Fudge ran away on his own power, the paper would use the present tense, "runs." "Run" in a headline implies the passive voice, which would appear (again written newspaper-style, in present tense), as "Fudge (Is) Run Out of Town." "Fudge (Is) Ran Out of Town" is ungrammatical regardless of which side of the Atlantic you're on. Fortunately the headline actually reads, "Fudge Chased From Office," so there's no ambiguity. We know, despite the missing "is," that the headline is in the passive voice and Fudge is on the receiving end of the action. IOW, he's being chased, not doing the chasing. (Whether we can trust the Quibbler or not is another matter, but I've already dealt with that in another post.) Carol, who promises to stop talking like an (ex-) English teacher now From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon May 24 05:30:05 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 05:30:05 -0000 Subject: cauldron cakes In-Reply-To: <40B135AD.2040208@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99230 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Well, I didn't like to mention it, because there's no telling what will precipitate the drawing of swords around here, plus it gets wearing keeping track of details what with Dementors and movie premieres and whatnot. Anyway, I just decided they had to be a magical version of "kettle cakes" which are an old Dutch thing that evolved, in the US, into what we call "doughnuts". Or not. Whatever. Don't hurt me, I'm old. --JDR From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon May 24 05:37:47 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 05:37:47 -0000 Subject: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99232 Pippin wrote: Moody does not say that the picture showed everyone who was in the Order at the time it was taken. It would be a security risk to have all the members meet at one time. And perhaps someone was taking the picture, as well. vmonte responds: It seems strange that the Order members would photograph themselves in the first place. Now I'm curious, who took the photograph? Are there copies of the same photo, or other photos from that party floating around? (Moody has one and he didn't take the photograph.) Did a DE have, or get, a copy? It would be a great piece of info to get a hold of, wouldn't it? How about the Order people that are not in it? Maybe they should feel lucky -- it may be why some of them are still alive. vmonte From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon May 24 05:45:41 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 05:45:41 -0000 Subject: The Picture - longish. LV goes after all the children... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99234 tub_of_earwax wrote: lots of snips Edgar Bones: Brother of Amelia Bones, part of the Wizengamot, relation of Susan Bones, in Harry's year. According to Hagrid a great wizard, along with his family. STATUS: Killed by Death-Eaters with his wife and kids. and... Marlene McKinnon: Killed by Death Eaters with her whole family, two weeks after the team photo was taken. Hagrid thought her one of the best witches of the age. STATUS: Killed by Death-Eaters vmonte responds: I think that as soon as Voldemort heard the prophecy, he went for all the Order members that had children. The DEs didn't just go after the Potter's, and the LongBottoms, they went after the Mckinnon's and the Bones' children as well. (It sound like a Moses type scenario, in which Voldemort probably said: "just kill them all," to play it safe.) I don't think he realized Harry as the "one" until after Godric's Hollow. Regarding the prophecy: Voldemort may have understood "born to those" as meaning born from the Order. vmonte From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Mon May 24 06:15:16 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 06:15:16 -0000 Subject: two questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99235 Hi, What's a basset hound? Mundungus is described as looking like one. And how did Dumbledore know that the Dursleys will order Harry to move out of their house in the first chapter of OOTP. Was something or someone spying for him? bye adi From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon May 24 06:25:22 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 02:25:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] two questions Message-ID: <75.2a64e033.2de2ef52@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99236 In a message dated 05/24/2004 1:17:18 AM Central Daylight Time, theadimail at yahoo.co.in writes: > Hi, > What's a basset hound? Mundungus is described as looking like one. It has a long body, short legs and long floppy ears. usauuly white, brown and black spotted Big sad looking eyes. > And how did Dumbledore know that the Dursleys will order Harry to > move out of their house in the first chapter of OOTP. Was something > or someone spying for him? Yes, Arabella Figg was spying on them and I've no doubt she had some way of reporting back to Dumbledore. That brings up an interesting thought: How would Dumbledore have communicated with her . .Owl post? Floo powder .. would that have even worked for a squib? Something else altogether? bye > adi > Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 24 06:36:56 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 06:36:56 -0000 Subject: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin In-Reply-To: <20040523114959.52285.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: Moonmyyst: > I cannot wait until we find out how he figured out to even start looking for something that no one thought existed and probably wasn't even thought about for many, many years. No one, from what I can tell, knew about it in Harry's class, so I want to know how he even knew to start looking. Geoff: Possibly by digging around in the library at Hogwarts - it might even be in "Hogwarts, a History", that oft-mentioned but never seen tome!!! It wasn't as if no one knew about the Chamber. Binns kne about it, so presumably did other teaching staff. Geoff who lives in West Somerset and didn't even know there was a Dallas in Georgia.... we've got a Washington and a California in the UK..... From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 24 06:53:35 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 06:53:35 -0000 Subject: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: Bookworm: > Voldemort marked Harry; once Voldemort is gone/defeated/vanquished > Harry won't be marked any more. And while Harry will be at the > center of the struggle, I suspect that there will be so many friends > and allies who help him get there, that he will be one hero among > many. He feels alone now but I think that will change when he learns > to trust others to help him. Geoff: This situation involving Harry suddenly reminded me of a Biblical parallel, that of Elijah. He had a stand-off with the prophets and priests of the cult of Baal, whose worship was supported by the king and queen (Ahab and Jezebel) in which with the power of God, he was able to defeat over eight hundred of these people. Immediately afterwards, Jezebel sent a message threatening his life; Elijah had a sudden loss of confidence and ran away into the desert where he became depressed. Paraphrasing the story, God spoke to him and said "What are you doing here?" and he replied "I am the only one of your believers left and the followers of Baal are trying to kill me". God then said "You are not the only one. There are 7000 people in Israel who have not worshipped Baal." Harry may feel marked but, like Elijah, he has supporters, some of whom he may not know. (The full Elijah story is in the Old Testament 1 Kings 18 & 19). From LadySawall at aol.com Mon May 24 07:26:14 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 03:26:14 EDT Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House Message-ID: <158.35ce3bf5.2de2fd96@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99239 In a message dated 05/23/2004 11:52:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nora writes: I used to not think that the blood issue was so major in the Potterverse, but I'm more and more convinced that it *is* the driving ideology of the current conflict--and what it will take is, in part, Slytherins willing to repudiate the ideology of their House. Slytherin House must cease to exist. :) -Nora wants to hear feedback on this, as it's extrapolation, but seems fairly solid Rebecca: > I think all houses must cease to exist. The sorting > hat says houses are bad, and I trust it. I've given this quite a bit of thought, and I tend to agree that the Pureblood issue is at the root of the Slytherin problem. I have a hard time believing, however, given the allegedly close friendships between the Four Founders, that Salazar Slytherin was the kind of bigot that we see among the purebloods today, or that he would approve of what Riddle and his Death Eaters have done in his name. I'm not sure I believe that he personally built the Chamber of Secrets, or if he did, that he stocked it with a Basilisk and left it for an Heir to find and carry on his "noble work." He could have had a personal dislike for Muggle-born students that had nothing to do with "purity of blood" and everything to do with the fact that magic was seen by Muggles at the time as the tool of the Devil. Imagine trying to educate students in the use of their potentially dangerous magical skills, when they think that you're the Spawn of Evil and that their own immortal souls are forfeit because of their abilities! The only intelligence that we've heard from that goes back to the days of the Four Founders is the Sorting Hat, and I note with interest that the Hat has said that Salazar argued with the other Founders and eventually felt compelled to leave the school--but it never says that he was evil, or that he and the others hated one another. In fact, it states that Salazar's departure "left us quite downhearted." That sounds to me more like an honest dispute between respected colleagues than a struggle between good and evil. A lot can happen in a thousand years, and I can easily see some arrogant pureblood Parselmouth coming along years later, twisting the old stories about Salazar's disagreements with his fellow Founders into an excuse to advance his own agenda... Let's remember that the four Houses have managed to co-exist for nearly a thousand years. There have undoubtedly been other times when nasty rivalries flared up between them, but the only one we know of for sure is the one that has existed since Tom Riddle began his rise to power fifty years ago. So I am inclined to believe that the ultimate root of the current conflict lies in Voldemort, not in his House (though the atmosphere fostered by the House undoubtedly contributes; and Voldemort, in turn, has influenced the current atmosphere in the House.) That said, I wouldn't be too surprised if at some point before the series ends, someone calls for the dissolution of House Slytherin. (In fact, I've been writing a fic in which exactly that happens.) I think it would be very interesting to see what sorts of arguments would be brought to the table by either side, who would speak for which side, and which side Harry would wind up on--given that he himself could have been a Slytherin. Jo Ann ...who thinks that Snape would have to change his tune awfully quick to win over people he's spent years antagonizing, but that he could also come up with a fairly devastating presentation based solely on the acts of Peter Pettigrew. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 24 07:52:31 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 08:52:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] King's Cross (was Re: Assyria and Wizardly Geography) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040524075231.60950.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99240 Geoff Bannister wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Geoff: Having just taken a > close look at the DVD (which I've never really dome before), the > opening shot shows Harry and Hagrid walking east (ie towards platform > 1) along the bridge which connects platforms 1 and 8. The terminal > ends are to the left of them. Geoff again: Replying to my own post, I'm getting my knickers in a twist - reading too many posts too quickly at this time of the evening I think. The bridge shot shows the platform ends on the left hand side - to the right of H and H, so they are moving away from platform 9 towards platform 1. UdderPD here Hey we are all Muggles, what we can see at Kings Cross is not what the Wizzards see. I can not even see The Leaky Cauldron in TCRoad and lets not confuse the highly inaccurate Films with Cannon. UdderPD ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From squeakinby at tds.net Mon May 24 09:27:43 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 04:27:43 -0500 Subject: Book 7 predictions Message-ID: <40B1C00F.6020004@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99241 Book 1 first chapter--The Boy Who Lived Book 7--last chapter--The Boy Who Died (This will scare some of us.) My predictions for the last lines.... "Harry Potter was the boy who lived. Tom Riddle, Voldemort, was the boy who died never able to understand the power of the scar." From squeakinby at tds.net Mon May 24 09:29:01 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 04:29:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: cauldron cakes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40B1C05D.4040102@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99242 > The Sergeant Majorette says > > Anyway, I just decided they had to be a magical version of "kettle > cakes" which are an old Dutch thing that evolved, in the US, into > what we call "doughnuts". Thank you! Delicious! And makes sense to me! Jem From kmsyarto at hotmail.com Mon May 24 08:38:19 2004 From: kmsyarto at hotmail.com (marigoldevans) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 08:38:19 -0000 Subject: two questions In-Reply-To: <75.2a64e033.2de2ef52@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99243 > And how did Dumbledore know that the Dursleys will order Harry to > > move out of their house in the first chapter of OOTP. Was something > > or someone spying for him? > > > Yes, Arabella Figg was spying on them and I've no doubt she had some way of > reporting back to Dumbledore. That brings up an interesting thought: How would > Dumbledore have communicated with her . .Owl post? Floo powder .. would that > have even worked for a squib? Something else altogether? > Melissa Marigold here, after several more months of lurking. Actually, I believe that DD was alerted by Arthur. If you look at the order of letters arriving by owl post at the Dursleys' (OotP, chpt. 2), you'll see that the first one is from the Ministry. The next one is from Arthur telling Harry that DD has just arrived at the Ministry and is attempting to sort things out. So, because of his work and work-connections, Arthur immediately found out what had happened and alerted DD using the mysterious method that DD mentions in chpt. 37, "The Lost Prophesy" (pg. 830). As to the other part about DD knowing the Dursleys might try to order Harry out of the house, DD answers that himself. Chpt. 37 (pg. 8360): "Wait," said Harry. "Wait a moment." He sat up straighter in his chair, staring at Dumbledore. "You sent that Howler. You told her to remember --- it was your voice ---" "I thought," said Dumbledore, inclining his head slightly, "that she might need reminding of the pact that she had sealed by taking you. I suspected the dementor attack might have awoken her to the dangers of having you as a surrogate son." Marigold Evans From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon May 24 09:24:37 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:24:37 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: <20040524004726.45253.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > --- BrwNeil at a... wrote: > > Slytherin House must cease to exist. :) > > I think all houses must cease to exist. The sorting > hat says houses are bad, and I trust it. > I wouldn't be so sure: Live Web Chat 4th March 2004 - Arianna: Can we believe everything the Sorting Hat says? JKR: The Sorting Hat is certainly sincere. A very clever answer this and not one that enlightens us much. It implies that the SH believes that what it says is true but that it could be honestly mistaken about the actual / future situation. A belief can be sincerely held but may not necessarily be valid. Now all we have to do is decide; bluff or double bluff by JKR? Kneasy From msmerymac at yahoo.com Mon May 24 09:33:23 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:33:23 -0000 Subject: two questions In-Reply-To: <75.2a64e033.2de2ef52@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99245 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 05/24/2004 1:17:18 AM Central Daylight Time, > theadimail at y... writes: > > > > Hi, > > What's a basset hound? Mundungus is described as looking like one. > > > It has a long body, short legs and long floppy ears. usauuly white, brown and > black spotted Big sad looking eyes. Luckie: Yes, I picture 'Dung to be somewhat stocky with large brown eyes, and a lined, saggin face, probably with jowls, or perhaps mutton chop side burns that look like jowls. > > > > And how did Dumbledore know that the Dursleys will order Harry to > > move out of their house in the first chapter of OOTP. Was something > > or someone spying for him? > > > Yes, Arabella Figg was spying on them and I've no doubt she had some way of > reporting back to Dumbledore. > Luckie: Aside from Mrs. Figg, there were others tracking Harry all summer - Mungungus was supposed to be on duty during the Dementor attack, but we can be fairly certain that several Order members were on Harry- guarding duty, not to mention Prophecy-guarding duty. I can just imagine Mundungus, Dedalus Diggle, and Sturgis Podmore taking 8 hours shifts a day, perhaps sleeping at Mrs. Figg's house in between duties... From naama_gat at hotmail.com Mon May 24 09:56:00 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:56:00 -0000 Subject: Good & Evil in the Potterverse (was Harry Agonistes ( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99246 > I didn't explain that well. I don't mean that the characters in > Tolkien, Lewis and Star Wars don't struggle with moral issues. > What I mean is that when Aragorn says, 'Good and ill have not > changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves > and Dwarves and another among Men,' nobody thinks he's > talking nonsense. And a similar sort of universal morality > prevails in the Star Wars movies: the Jedi have been upholding > one ideal of peace and freedom accepted across the galaxy for > thousands of years > > But Rowling's world doesn't have that kind of unity. > Now it's my turn to ask, are we reading the same books. I don't see any ambivalence at all regarding Right and Wrong in the Potterverse. IMO, JKR holds a universalistic concept of morality, and Aragorn's quote, "Good and ill have not changed..." could easily have been said by Dumbledore. The complexity in the series (and like Neri, I think it is less morally complex than what some people here think (or hope?)), comes from the distance between the moral ideal (which is constant) and reality. When Lupin, for instance, fails to inform DD of Sirius' animagus abilities, he does wrong. But the fact that we have a basically good person doing something wrong doesn't mean that there is any doubt regarding what he should, ideally, have done. Right is right, whether people do it or not. Moreover, Right is right whether *people believe it or not*. In JKR's world, the fact that the Voldemort and the DEs have an ideology doesn't justify their actions. On the contrary, holding an ideology that justifies and glorifies evil is what makes them totally evil. The battle between the racial ideology and the ideology of equality begun a thousand years before - and what was right and wrong then is still what is right and wrong now. JKR shows us that different species have members who are good (Dobby, Firenze) and bad (Kreacher, Bane) - but good elves and good centaurs and good people uphold the same values, and in that sense are good in the same way. I find JKR, in fact, remarkably similar to Tolkien in her moral views. Think of Frodo (who, by the way, Geoff, *completely* succumbed at Mount Doom) - he knew what he *should* do; the problem was that it was so difficult to do it. In the same way, DD makes it clear to his students that the crucial moral moment involves the choice of Right over Easy. Naama From mimi.barker at mindspring.com Mon May 24 03:28:34 2004 From: mimi.barker at mindspring.com (Mimi Barker) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 03:28:34 -0000 Subject: Benjy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tub_of_earwax" > wrote: > > > Bennji Fenwick, > > STATUS: killed, only bits of him found. > > He's another one who could still be alive, depending on which > bits were found. This is the first thing I thought about Benjy too. The pattern with Pettigrew is there. And remember the news Harry heard at the beginning of OoP? There was the report about Bungy the water skiing budgie..... A couple of thoughts. I too would like to know just what bits of Benjy were found. I doubt it is an exact parallel to Pettigrew/Scabbers, but JKR could put a twist in it. I think another unregistered animagus would be overdoing that bit, but what about a registered animagus? Hermione tells us that there have only been seven registered animagi in the last century, but she only names McGonagall. Maybe Benjy was one of the other six, but since Hermione didn't know anything about him at that point, she didn't have any reason to mention him. Or maybe it has nothing to do with animagi, but he is under some other kind of curse that turned him into a budgie and keeps him that way. I've just been listening to the tapes of POA, and something I hadn't noticed before caught my attention. When Trelawny gives her prediction about the servant rejoining his master, she says that his chains will be broken, implying that he has been restrained in some way beyond his own will. Maybe he COULDN'T transform back into a human but didn't want to admit that to Lupin and Black. Or maybe prophecies aren't meant to be literal in every word... I'll have to read the bit with the evening news again and see if the Fenwick part of his name fits in anywhere there. From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Mon May 24 03:58:47 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 03:58:47 -0000 Subject: Lily. Was: Prank revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99248 Alla wrote > > That is why I could never understand why people argue that "saving > people thing" is a bad quality of Harry's character. I don't think that the fact the Harry has a "saving people thing" is a character flaw so to speak. However, when Hermione mentions this to Harry (OoTP 32) she is making an arguement that Voldemort is leading Harry into a trap. Since Voldemort (and everybody else for that matter) knows this about Harry, his enemies can use this particular character trait against Harry. We have to take that comment by Hermione in context with her overall arguement gving the situation. She is desperately trying to get Harry to realize that Voldemort could be setting a trap for him. She is the only one thinking logically and wants Harry to consider other options. All the evidence to this point of the novel points to the fact that Voldemort has realized that he can enter Harry's mind and plant something he wants Harry to see. Remember Hermione is the only student who implores Harry to continue his Occlumency lessons with Snape. I do not see this portion as highlighting a character flaw in Harry, but as highlighting the logical thinking of Hermione and showing that Harry is not surrounded by yes people. Mike Feemster From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon May 24 04:02:03 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 00:02:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99249 Hi, I'm still not quite current, so if I voice someone else's thoughts, don't send the dimentors after me. I've been watching the Harry character development and start seeing stuff coming up at POA...Flares of temper, seemingly bad attitude problems, etc. Simply put, Harry has several things working against him. First off, he's growing up; he's experiencing hormonal changes which can stress a body out and make many a teen go from lto Hyde. Now, pile on the treatment given him by the Dursleys...enough to shake anyone's self-confidence and self-worth. Add to this Volde's visions (starting with GOF) which no one seems to be able to help him truly understand, partly because he's not leveling with anyone completely except for Hermione, perhaps, and this is probably attributable to the fact that he feels different enough already and is afraid of more things to differentiate him. Okay, now for OOTP--He's got Volde's emotions and visions to increase his stress levels, a lot of very vague contacts from those he hoped would give him hope during a miserable summer, he's got a girl he likes but who's main interest is wanting to talk about what happened to Diggery which is the last thing in the universe Harry wants to have to keep reliving, and a lot of almost-explanations from the Order. Dumbledore, a person he truly trusts, can't look him in the eye and won't say why so he probably thinks he's done something to rate Dumbledore's disapproval. He's got to deal with Snape not only for potions but for occlumancy. Ah--and don't forget, he's got Umbridge to deal with. Take all of these ingredients and put them together, add any other interesting stuff like Harry's fame, etc., and you have a kid who, in a sense, really does have the weight of the world on his shoulders. Yes, he's a marked man; he has been and will continue to be; he's going to have to endure a lot more heartache and stress. However, as we have seen, there's always help from unlikely places (unlikely to him, at least), and I think that, especially after Dumbledor's explanation (in my opinion, badly timed) those trying to keep things from Harry may realize that this can no longer be done and Harry's going to have to mature and deal emotionally or completely crumble. I seriously doubt the latter. Anyway, that's my two knuts' worth. Peace, Lee :-) From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon May 24 04:59:19 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 00:59:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99250 | From: lauren_silverwolf [mailto:laurens at leroc.net] | | I'm wondering whether "Mother's Ruin" is a pointer towards Ginny & | Molly's relationship deteriorating in the future. I'm not for one | minute suggesting any alcoholism or unwanted pregnancies! However, we | have seen Ginny grow from a shy child, into a spunky teenager. One | thing we've not witnessed yet, though, is how this has altered the | Molly/Ginny relationship dynamic (and, as all mothers with teenage | daughters know - it's not necessarily smooth sailing). I'd like to | see this in the next book but I'm hoping that it's not a complete | portent of doom for poor Molly... [Lee says]: Hmm--I think that Molly will have a lot of re-evaluation to do. Her kids are growing up and things are going to get a bit--no, probably a lot tougher now. She's a bit on the over-protective side...a lovely woman with a big and good heart, but her own ideas of what her kids should be like and act like, etc. Unfortunately, things aren't working out the way she possibly hoped/dreamed. She's lost contact with Percy who's gone on his own stream of bad judgment calls and mistakes. Fred and George have opened their joke shop, a far cry from working in the Ministry as, I gather, Molly had hoped. She's going to hang on to Ron and Gini for all she's worth and, inevitably, there will be strain and possibly a bit of rift. However, I can't help but feel that, in the final analysis, Molly will find the proper balance in the relationships. She's gonna have a lot of heartache, I'm sure, but she has a lot of love in her, and I believe that will be her aid in doing the balancing act. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon May 24 06:42:08 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 06:42:08 -0000 Subject: two questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99251 adi: > Hi, > What's a basset hound? Mundungus is described as looking like one. > And how did Dumbledore know that the Dursleys will order Harry to > move out of their house in the first chapter of OOTP. Was something > or someone spying for him? Finwitch: A Basset Hound is a dog... I think it's the one with a skin that'd fill a bigger dog, sad eyes and little legs. Cute thing really... As to your second question... I doubt Dumbledore *knew* as such - but Mrs Figg told him of the Dementors (and complained about Mundungus Fletcher who wasn't there when he was supposed to be) and Harry's Patronus. So, I'd say that Dumbledore would suspect they *might*. (Well, after what happened a year before with Ton Tongue Toffee and their refusal, which I'm sure Arthur has told AD of, I'd say he suspected) -- Finwitch From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon May 24 11:21:30 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:21:30 -0000 Subject: A DE ready to take over LV 's place after Godric's Hollow. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99252 vmonte: I wonder why the LongBottoms were attacked after LV was thought to have been defeated. Is it possible that a certtain DE saw this as their chance to become the new Lord Thingy? The only problem though, was that LV's defeat/death was still only a rumor; they needed to make sure that LV was really dead. So, when they found the Longbottoms, they tortured them for information regarding the events at Godric's Hollow. So, why didn't this person take over LV's "noble" cause? Was it because they were captured and sent to prison? Did they realize that LV was still alive as Vapormort and decided it was too risky to take over? Or, did this person defect to the Order to save their own skin? (They may have realized that the DEs were being captured left and right and may have thought their own capture was a matter of time.) I would like to know who sent Bellatrix after the LongBottoms? Because I don't think it was her idea; although, she loves her work. I wonder if this person was planning for some time to take over as Lord Thingy and came up with the idea of the prophecy as a way to keep Voldemort busy and unfocused? If this is true, this person knows LV's fears and weaknesses. And they could be using Trelawny as a conduit for their own plan. vmonte From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 11:22:18 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:22:18 -0000 Subject: Who Hatched the Basilisk? was Re: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99253 > Moonmyyst: > > I cannot wait until we find out how he figured out to even start > looking for something that no one thought existed and probably wasn't > even thought about for many, many years. No one, from what I can > tell, knew about it in Harry's class, so I want to know how he even > knew to start looking. > > Geoff: > Possibly by digging around in the library at Hogwarts - it might even > be in "Hogwarts, a History", that oft-mentioned but never seen > tome!!! It wasn't as if no one knew about the Chamber. Binns kne > about it, so presumably did other teaching staff. Snip Potioncat: It's come up a few times that Salazar must have been pretty wicked to have left a monster in the school. It doesn't really fit with his being friends with the other founders, does it? I mean it's one thing to have a falling out, but to leave a monster? I wonder if there is any chance that the legend was just that? Perhaps there was a chamber, but no monster. Tom Riddle found it and hatched a basilisk in the chamber? There are chickens on the grounds and lots of toads or is it frogs that's needed? Any thoughts? Potioncat From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 24 11:38:48 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:38:48 -0000 Subject: King's Cross (was Re: Assyria and Wizardly Geography) In-Reply-To: <20040524075231.60950.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, udder_pen_dragon wrote: UdderPD: > Hey we are all Muggles, what we can see at Kings Cross is not what the Wizzards see. I can not even see The Leaky Cauldron in TCRoad and lets not confuse the highly inaccurate Films with Cannon. Geoff: Maybe, but the fact is that the access to Platform 9 3/4 cannot be between Platform 9 and 10 because they don't share platform faces in reality. To get between the two, Harry and the others would have to walk along the tracks. That ain't the film, that's from the canon description. Changing the topic, unless you are a wizard, perhaps you are not meant to see the Leaky Cauldron. In passing, I'm not sure that it has been established that it is in Tottenham Court Road. Have a look at a long thread about its location which started at message 76570. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 11:41:10 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:41:10 -0000 Subject: Benjy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99255 tub_of_earwax wrote: Bennji Fenwick, STATUS: killed, only bits of him found. He's another one who could still be alive, depending on which bits were found. Mimi wrote: This is the first thing I thought about Benjy too. The pattern with Pettigrew is there. And remember the news Harry heard at the beginning of OoP? There was the report about Bungy the water skiing budgie..... A couple of thoughts. I too would like to know just what bits of Benjy were found. I doubt it is an exact parallel to Pettigrew/Scabbers, but JKR could put a twist in it. >snip< Snow: I don't know how important this is but did you notice that Lupin was not standing next to his best buddies in the picture? In fact, he's pictured two rows in front of his friends, right between Emmeline Vance and Benjy Fenwick. From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Mon May 24 11:47:23 2004 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:47:23 -0000 Subject: Lily. Was: Prank revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: Renee >Of course, it would take a saint to ignore Snape's reaction > > altogether; that Lily pays him back in kind shows she's no saint or > > angel but a normal human being. It's what she does next that I find > > so disappointing. >she leaves, practically begging James to continue his torment > > of Snape. After all, how else is he to remain cool in the eyes > > of the general public? > > Would James have turned Snape upside down again if Lily had stayed, > > without defending Snape verbally, yet showing she wasn't going to > > abandon her responsibility as a prefect? I don't think so. > > Ally: > The question I want to ask - does it really matter? For whatever > reasons she wanted to help. She interfered. Snape called her the most > degrating word possible in the WW as a gratitude. I perfectly > understand why she walked away. > Renee: Oh, I do understand why she walked away. I'm just not inclined to excuse it. My problem - and maybe I didn't make myself clear in my previous post - is that she's not just Lily Evans in this scene. She's a prefect. If she really thinks what James does is wrong, it's her duty as a prefect to put an end to his treatment of Snape. By walking away, she pracically made sure James would go on. Lily may have been right to leave (though she'd already put Snape in place verbally). My question is: was *Prefect Evans* right to leave? Isn't this another instance of right vs. easy? Unless her reason for intervening was drawing James's attention, but that would actually make it worse. It would mean she's merely using Snape's predicament as a pretext. So yes, to me it does matter why she did it. Renee From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 11:56:41 2004 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 04:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4624 In-Reply-To: <1085370594.10816.53003.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040524115641.8703.qmail@web51003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99257 Message: 7 Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 04:49:59 -0700 (PDT) From: K G Subject: Re: Re: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin I cannot wait until we find out how he figured out to even start looking for something that no one thought existed and probably wasn't even thought about for many, many years. No one, from what I can tell, knew about it in Harry's class, so I want to know how he even knew to start looking. Moonmyyst (who lives IN Dallas - Georgia that is) I would think the tale of the chamber would have been kept alive in Slytherin House. Tom would have heard it soon after arriving at Hogwarts and begun his search. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains Claim yours for only $14.70/year http://smallbusiness.promotions.yahoo.com/offer From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 12:24:06 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:24:06 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: <158.35ce3bf5.2de2fd96@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99258 Jo Ann wrote: > I'm not sure I believe that he personally built the Chamber of Secrets, or if > he did, that he stocked it with a Basilisk and left it for an Heir to find > and carry on his "noble work." He could have had a personal dislike for > Muggle-born students that had nothing to do with "purity of blood" and everything to > do with the fact that magic was seen by Muggles at the time as the tool of the > Devil. Potioncat: It takes two HGfGU members to change a light bulb. One to change it and one to come behind and change it again. That's what I did. Wrote a similar comment to Jo Ann's then proptly read her post. Oh, well, it's good to know I'm not totally out of it in ideas! I do think the purity of blood has been the major problem for Slytherin House. But I agree, I think it started out as "let's wait until the magic has run a generation or two before allowing the magic child in" and turned into "Muggle blood is dirty blood." The idea that comes up, both in canon and in posts, that those in Slyterin House are inately evil bothers me. And to me, makes no sense. Because if that was the intent, why wouldn't all Slytherin students be promptly expelled or transferred to a Magical St. Brutus'? Potioncat who apologizes for this "me too" post. From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 24 12:30:43 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:30:43 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99259 I simply can't believe some of the excuses the Sirius-lovers are coming up with to defend their darling. So Snape may have possibly recruited Regulus into the DE (evidence??). This makes Sirius cross and it is understandable (though not, of course, justifiable)that he should want to feed Severus to his werewolf friend. Oh, he did it just to scare him did he? How exactly was he going to prevent Snape being torn limb from limb? If he really didn't anticipate the consequences of what he was doing, then he WAS an idiot. If he did, he was prepared to let Snape die. Sylvia (who doesn't expect to make many friends) From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 12:40:11 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:40:11 -0000 Subject: Curious Duality of Snape: (was: Harry begins to act ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99260 bboy_mn wrote: >>snip<< If he could see them and he thought Sirius truly needed to be > > 'kissed', Snape could have just yelled for the Dementors to come back. > Kneasy responded: > 1. Who do the Dementors take their orders from? The Ministry. That > being so, why would they take any notice of Snape? If any wizard-in- > the-street could give them instructions or requests then the WW > would be a very dangerous place. The only instruction they seem to > respond to is "Go away!" accompanied by a Patronus. Potioncat: Given that they were assigned to protect Hogwarts, I would think a Hogwarts professor would have the authority to call to them for assistance in dealing with Black. Kneasy: (And this covers one of my favourite theories), what makes you > think they were after Sirius anyway? On the three occasions that they > enter Hogwarts grounds they seem much more interested in Harry. > At no time in PoA does a Dementor even attempt to attack Sirius. > Don't you think that's a bit odd? Potioncat: Yes I do think that's odd. I think you're on to something with this theory. ESE!Dementors, now that's a nightmare! But does Snape "know" that? Does Snape suspect that? And in this episode he didn't see them attack Harry did he? Kneasy: > No; in Snape's position I wouldn't try to call them back either. There's > no guarantee that even if they responded they would restrict their > amorous propensities to the target you designate. Potioncat: Now that makes a lot of sense! One is hard enough to deal with, but that many? Of course, he could have bound Sirius, taken the others to the castle and used sonorous to call up the dementors, dashing into the safety of the castle. No, I think Snape may be too brave to take that avenue, even if he does protect his own neck. But I don't think at this point, he's less "heroic" or "noble" or whatever word one would want to choose. The point is, he did not leave Sirius for the dementors. Potioncat who hopes she hasn't dashed this off with too many mistakes! From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon May 24 13:26:09 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 08:26:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Caradoc Dearborn Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99261 Can any one let me know if Caradoc Dearborn has ever been mentioned on this site? Moody mentions him whilst talking to harry and showing him a picture of the old order. He was apparently killed by Death Eaters but they never founf his body!!!!! Methinks he may actually be a loyal supporter of Voldy, and is very much alive!!! Just an idea Tim Gina chimes in: YES! I posted a while back (or I thought I did) about that photo Moody shows Harry. There was also a lady that he said "Voldemort killed her personally" and I have often wondered why since his DEs usually do the dirty work. Gina --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Mon May 24 13:20:22 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 8:20:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who Hatched the Basilisk? was Re: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin Message-ID: <20040524132022.BFFM1551.out004.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99262 Potioncat: I wonder if there is any chance that the legend was just that? Perhaps there was a chamber, but no monster. Tom Riddle found it and hatched a basilisk in the chamber? There are chickens on the grounds and lots of toads or is it frogs that's needed? Silverthorne: Interesting idea that Salazar did not actaully leave the basilisk behind (although I think he did but also think that perhaps maybe the basilisk was originally approved by all the founders--perhaps to keep the castle protect way abck then--after all, the world was more more violent and 'eat or be eaten' back then so to speak..;) As for how to hatch one: A Rooster must lay the egg--during a certain phase of the moon, a lot of legends say, but I can't remember what phase off the top of my head... It must be buried in a dung heap It then must be tended by a toad (or some legends say a snake) until the egg hatches. Silverthorne/Anne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 24 13:38:06 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:38:06 -0000 Subject: Lily. Was: Prank revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99264 > Renee: > > Oh, I do understand why she walked away. I'm just not inclined to excuse it. My problem - and maybe I didn't make myself clear in my previous post - is that she's not just Lily Evans in this scene. She's a prefect.< Dumb canon question here. I know Lily was eventually Head Girl. But is there canon that she was a prefect? Harry doesn't notice that she's wearing a badge. If she was a prefect, then she shouldn't have intervened unless she was prepared to do something about it. But if she was a prefect, why should she threaten James with her wand instead of taking points or assigning detention? It seems that James's infatuation with Lily was no secret, so Snape's insult may have been directed at him too. One reason that nobody wants to talk much about the Potter grandparents might be that they weren't so thrilled to have a Muggleborn in the family. As Sirius says, you can't stay a pureblood family unless you're willing to forbid your children from marrying others. I think, too, that in assessing Snape's use of the M-word, we have to remember that at this time although Voldemort had begun his rise to power, he was not yet openly advocating or committing atrocities. He might even have been making a great show of condemning them, similar to Lucius Malfoy in CoS. What I'm saying is the context for the word might have been different. It might not yet carry the implication of violence that it would acquire later. Pippin certain someone will reply that James's parents couldn't possibly have been racists--wanna bet? From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 13:49:24 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:49:24 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99265 > > Alice: > I thought your mail was utterly fascinating. > It got me thinking about the first Occlumency lesson, when Snape goes > on about "fools who bear their hearts" or something, who are weak. > I was wondering whether Snape displays exactly this kind of wekness > somewhere along the line, can you think of anything? > Or maybe he DID do that before he was taunted at Hogwarts? > Potioncat: I snipped two posts and left this one. I also went upthread to read the one that inspired this one and I'm a little confused. OK, so what else is new.... Are you asking if Snape wears his heart on his sleeve? or if he has also has a "saving people" thing? The answer to both just might be yes. In his case, he also has a strong need for recognition. Which he doesn't seem to get. It's hard to say if the Life Debt which he feels is unpaid, is a debt of honor or a magically-bound debt. But something is motivating him to watch out for Harry. He's stepped in once or twice to help out Neville too. And I think the real reason he's stalking the halls at night is for the safety of the studnets, not for a snack. Any how, that's my take on it. Potioncat From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 24 14:01:47 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:01:47 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: <3e.3f5fedcf.2de29f7f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99266 Neil: > I used to not think that the blood issue was so major in the > Potterverse, but I'm more and more convinced that it *is* the > driving ideology of the current conflict--and what it will take is, > in part, Slytherins willing to repudiate the ideology of their > House. > > Slytherin House must cease to exist. :) What if the problem isn't racism but paranoia, and racism is just the expression of it? Old Slytherin's power-hungriness is typical paranoid behavior. If you're paranoid you can't feel safe in any situation where others have power over you. Maybe, as long as the four founders were working together as equals and Slytherin could run his house as he chose, Slytherin could compensate. But when "feeding on our faults and fears" strife grew among them,and each "sought to rule", Slytherin's paranoid tendencies got the better of him. He blamed it all on the influence of Muggleborns, but if there hadn't been Muggleborns he'd have blamed somebody else I'm sure. In all dysfunctional situations there's some enabling going on. I'm sure it's very convenient for the other houses to have the kids with paranoid tendencies gravitate to Slytherin. Racist and paranoid attitudes are formed very early in life. If Slytherin were abolished, the other Houses would have to take their share of the "problem children". Pippin From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon May 24 14:02:41 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:02:41 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > I simply can't believe some of the excuses the Sirius-lovers are > coming up with to defend their darling. So Snape may have possibly > recruited Regulus into the DE (evidence??). This makes Sirius cross > and it is understandable (though not, of course, justifiable)that he > should want to feed Severus to his werewolf friend. Oh, he did it > just to scare him did he? How exactly was he going to prevent Snape > being torn limb from limb? If he really didn't anticipate the > consequences of what he was doing, then he WAS an idiot. If he did, > he was prepared to let Snape die. > > Sylvia (who doesn't expect to make many friends) Yes, Sirius was an idiot. And he admits that. In Order he says that he and James were "arrogant little berks" and that he is not proud of some of the things they used to do at school. And that, IMHO, is the big difference between Snape and Sirius. Sirius was able to admit that he was wrong to do those things, while I have always seen Snape paint himself as a martyr. He has sainted himself, and in five books I have never seen him once admit responsibility for something he did wrong. And everyone, and I mean everyone has done stuff that they're not proud of, even really stupid things like the prank. But I think we should all bare in mind here that we don't know the whole story. A few snippets from slightly biased sources and a dip into a possibly biased Pensieve is no way to judge three characters (James, Snape, Sirius) about whom we know so little. I am patiently waitng for JKR to explain... Meri - who wonders if there are no depths to which Snapephiles won't sink to defend that man... From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 14:06:38 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:06:38 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99268 Potiocat wrote: snip And, Snape never told Harry about Sirius or really even how bad > James had been. Harry found that out himself. > > Potioncat > > > > Melanie wrote: He never told Harry about Sirius but he certainly > said really horrible things about his father at ever point he could. >> > Alla wrote: > I don't usually have many positive things to say about Snape's > treatment of Harry and I agree with Melanie - you don't belittle a > child about his dead father, ever. But, when Snape was saying these > horrible things in PoA, I felt the despair beyond the insults. I > thought that Snape was upset by James and Lily death and did not want Harry to die. > > I don't know if I feel like that after OoP, though. Potioncat again: My original comment was in response to someone saying that Sirius hadn't spoken against Snape in PoA. Sirius was surprised that Snape was at Hogwarts, didn't think Snape had been a DE, and warned them about Karkaroff. Yes, Snape was wrong to belittle Harry's dad. But, IIRC, all he ever said was that James strutted around and thought he was better than everyone else. Not so horrible. He could have said worse if he really wanted to. (Somewhat confirmed by James' friends later on.) I'm not entirely certain that Snape understands that Harry isn't like that. Alla, could you expand on your feeling after OoP....of my goodness, I sound like a support group leader Potioncat who just thought that we might all need support groups after book 7. And before this gets out of hand, wants to say that support groups are good things and she is now or has been in part of one...or more. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 14:09:10 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:09:10 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99269 Pippin wrote: > What if the problem isn't racism but paranoia, and racism is just > the expression of it? Old Slytherin's power-hungriness is typical > paranoid behavior. If you're paranoid you can't feel safe in any > situation where others have power over you. Potioncat: This makes Salazar sound a little like Moody...and Crouch..Sr and Jr...And makes very good sense! From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon May 24 14:08:07 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:08:07 -0000 Subject: Another 12 and 13... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99270 Hey all, I was thinking about the number 13 as I was rereading my books last week and something occured to me. Because he missed the train at the begining of his second year, during Harry's seventh year at Hogwarts, his trip to school will be his 12th trip on the Hogwarts Express, while his trip from school will be his 13th. Anyone else want to speculate about what could happen on that unlucky 13th ride? Meri - who now pictures the final battle between Harry and LV taking place on a moving train, like out of some Western... From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 14:20:49 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:20:49 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99271 Meri wrote: > Yes, Sirius was an idiot. And he admits that. In Order he says that > he and James were "arrogant little berks" and that he is not proud > of some of the things they used to do at school. And that, IMHO, is > the big difference between Snape and Sirius. >>snip<< But I think we should all bare in mind here that we don't know the whole story. A few snippets from slightly biased sources and a dip into a possibly biased Pensieve is no way to judge three characters (James, > Snape, Sirius) about whom we know so little. > Meri - who wonders if there are no depths to which Snapephiles won't sink to defend that man... Potioncat, putting on her scuba gear Sirius and Severus are both flawed. There are lots of reasons to like and dislike each of them. To me, one difference between them, is that while neither let go of the animosity, Snape at least contained his. I still think that Sirius should have kept his mouth shut in front of Harry when Snape told him about occlumency. Although at that point they both turned 15 again. In OoP we learned that James was pretty rotten at times. Not only to Snape. His friends say he'd hex people in the halls just because he could. Perhaps we'll learn Snape wasn't/isn't so bad. Although, by DD's trust we already see that. And it seems to me, that while DD seemed to feel an affection for Sirius, he trusted Snape more. Potioncat From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon May 24 14:25:32 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:25:32 -0000 Subject: Another 12 and 13... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99272 meriaugust wrote: > Hey all, > I was thinking about the number 13 as I was rereading my books last > week and something occured to me. Because he missed the train at the > begining of his second year, during Harry's seventh year at > Hogwarts, his trip to school will be his 12th trip on the Hogwarts > Express, while his trip from school will be his 13th. Anyone else > want to speculate about what could happen on that unlucky 13th ride? > > Meri - who now pictures the final battle between Harry and LV taking > place on a moving train, like out of some Western... Eustace_Scrubb: Well, I've thought for a while that something more important than turning Malfoy into a giant slug in a Hogwarts uniform would happen on the train--or maybe at King's Cross. But I rather thought it would be on the way to Hogwarts rather than the return. Then again, he missed the train 2nd year but he was at the station. So his 13th trip to catch the train at King's Cross _will_ be on his way to school. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From naama_gat at hotmail.com Mon May 24 14:29:55 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:29:55 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99273 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Neil: > > I used to not think that the blood issue was so major in the > > Potterverse, but I'm more and more convinced that it *is* the > > driving ideology of the current conflict--and what it will take is, > > in part, Slytherins willing to repudiate the ideology of their > > House. > > > > Slytherin House must cease to exist. :) > > What if the problem isn't racism but paranoia, and racism is just > the expression of it? Old Slytherin's power-hungriness is typical > paranoid behavior. If you're paranoid you can't feel safe in any > situation where others have power over you. > > In all dysfunctional situations there's some enabling going on. > I'm sure it's very convenient for the other houses to have the kids > with paranoid tendencies gravitate to Slytherin. Racist and > paranoid attitudes are formed very early in life. If Slytherin were > abolished, the other Houses would have to take their share of > the "problem children". > As seen - over and over again - in history, there is a huge different in outcome between spontaneous, "naturally" occuring bouts of xenophobia, and an ideologically rationalized, justified and institutionalized prejudice. People can do various things with impulses towards defensive anger and aggression. They can vent it on a random selection of victims; they can sublimate it via symbolic expression; they can even become aware, through reflexion, of their tendencies and *not* act on them. A hate ideology doesn't leave room for any of these other options; it doesn't leave room for people to change their attitudes, through experience, to the feared/hated minority. It also turns a gut impulse into a political issue, with factions for and against it. Which further insinuates it into various political agendas, not to mention peoples' minds. So, I fully agree that in so far as Slytherin house is based on racial ideology, it should be dismantled. Naama, in full writing mode today From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 14:32:26 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:32:26 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99274 Kathy King wrote: I personally don't even understand how Harry > could be sympathetic to a person (Snape) who just called his mother a mudblood. Just for this fact, I would have appreciated what my father had done to Snape if I were Harry. Potioncat: Harry saw the Marauders taking OWLS, and going outside to relax. He saw Snape in the shade, reading over the test. And he saw the Marauders attack Snape out of boredom. Had they said something like, "OK, let's get him back for that hex he did on the way into class..." maybe Harry would have felt differently. With all the bad blood between Harry and Draco, Harry would never just attack Draco. So he's a better person at 15 than his dad was at 15. And he doesn't approve of the behavior. And certainly, at this point he can better identify with Severus the victim than James the bully. I'm sure he doesn't think Snape calling Lily a name was OK either, but given the circumstances, something he could overlook. And keep in mind, James wasn't defending Lily, he was tormenting Snape. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 14:40:23 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:40:23 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99275 Naama wrote: > > So, I fully agree that in so far as Slytherin house is based on > racial ideology, it should be dismantled. > > Potioncat: Well, given that the houses are formed according to certain traits, and that most of us would have placed students differently than the hat did, what would happen to "Slytherin" students? Would brave racists go to Gryffindor and loyal racists go to Hufflepuff and smart racists go to Ravenclaw...where would the ambitious ones go? The racists would still be racists. Is it a racial ideology that determines Slytherin? Or should there be a new fourth house with ambition but no pureblood baggage? Of course, Jo isn't going to do this anyway. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 14:53:26 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:53:26 -0000 Subject: Nott, Malfoy and Narcissa. Re: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99276 Carol wrote: Given Narcissa's nose-in-the-air behavior at the QWC, I doubt that she treated Dobby any better than Lucius did. Harsh treatment of her servant, pureblood views, and expressed or tacit approval of Lucius's little plan to return Diary!Tom to Hogwarts would probably be enough to class her as a "Dark wizard" in Dobby's view. But there could be more to her than just the passive partner of a Death Eater. I very much doubt, though, that she's on the side of Good. > > Carol, who thinks Narcissa is a Black through and through and wonders > if she'll bribe someone to spring Lucius from Azkaban Potioncat: Well, I'm not sure we can make Narcissa into BTG!Narcissa any more than we can really believe in ESE!Lupin and ESE!Sirius and ESEeveryothergoodcharacter. (Although all that is very fun.) There are a few little hints that she may not be what we think she is. I still think there was more to her keeping Draco at Hogwarts than meets the eye. And given how Sirius treats Kreacher, I doubt if Narcissa knows any other way to treat a house-elf. (I am not defending her.) At any rate, I can't wait to see if Narcissa will be the new baddy or a surprise not-so-bad character. (but never good.) Potioncat From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 24 15:04:49 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:04:49 -0000 Subject: Good & Evil in the Potterverse (was Harry Agonistes ( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99277 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > > > I didn't explain that well. I don't mean that the characters in > > Tolkien, Lewis and Star Wars don't struggle with moral issues. What I mean is that when Aragorn says, 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men,' nobody thinks he's talking nonsense. And a similar sort of universal morality prevails in the Star Wars movies: the Jedi have been upholding one ideal of peace and freedom accepted across the galaxy for thousands of years > > > > But Rowling's world doesn't have that kind of unity. > > Naama: > Now it's my turn to ask, are we reading the same books. I don't see any ambivalence at all regarding Right and Wrong in the Potterverse. IMO, JKR holds a universalistic concept of morality, and Aragorn's quote, "Good and ill have not changed..." could easily have been said by Dumbledore. << Can you imagine Gandalf or Aragorn seeking alliance with Giants who "half-kill each other every few weeks" and decorate themselves with human bones? Would they offer rights and freedoms to the Orcs? JKR may well believe that there is a constant moral ideal and that everyone should aspire to it. Dumbledore does his best to influence others. But he does not assert the power to make other men see the truth, nor does he condemn out of hand those who do not see it as he does. The message of the Sorting Hat's new song, and of Dumbledore's closing words at the GoF feast imply to me that any aim, no matter how noble, may become corrupt once we close our hearts to those who do not share it. Now I could be wrong, and it may be that JKR has introduced this idea only to show us how wrong-headed it is. We'll see. To me JKR seems to be saying that while we are threatened by the truly perverse, we would do better to stop expecting that everyone conform to our ideal of morality and concentrate on fighting perversity together. Pippin From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 24 15:41:31 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:41:31 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99278 Kathy King wrote: << I personally don't even understand how Harry could be sympathetic to a person (Snape) who just called his mother a mudblood. Just for this fact, I would have appreciated what my father had done to Snape if I were Harry. >> Potioncat: < Harry saw the Marauders taking OWLS, and going outside to relax. He saw Snape in the shade, reading over the test. And he saw the Marauders attack Snape out of boredom. Had they said something like, "OK, let's get him back for that hex he did on the way into class..." maybe Harry would have felt differently. With all the bad blood between Harry and Draco, Harry would never just attack Draco. So he's a better person at 15 than his dad was at 15. And he doesn't approve of the behavior. And certainly, at this point he can better identify with Severus the victim than James the bully. I'm sure he doesn't think Snape calling Lily a name was OK either, but given the circumstances, something he could overlook. And keep in mind, James wasn't defending Lily, he was tormenting Snape.> Sigune adds: Very good points, Potioncat! I think it is also significant that Snape is *on his own* (where is that infamous 'gang of Slytherins' when you need them? Or is Snape way less close to them than Sirius seems to think?) whereas the dear Marauders hunt in packs... A typical sample of Gryffindor bravery? No matter how good Snape's reflexes are, he cannot handle *two* quick and talented wizards at once, and they know it. Lupin does not join the bullying, but condones it; and Peter positively goads James and Sirius on. As for James and Sirius having good cause to torment Snape, I feel bound to question Sirius's excuse. He defends James and himself by saying that Snape lost no opportunity for hexing James; surely James could not take that 'lying down' (if I remember the expression correctly - ?). Well, we know from Lily that James was not averse to hexing random people in the corridors just because he could; should Snape be expected to take that 'lying down'? So who started hexing whom? They probably didn't remember it themselves. In any case, I think Sirius's argument a feeble excuse indeed. Lily's defense of Snape, also, seems half-hearted at best. At times when I am really evil I think she merely did it in order to create an opportunity for bickering with James - she does take advantage of the situation by displaying an ability for quick repartee and establishing a powerful image of herself - sort of: if you want to impress me, you will have to do better than that. I have an uneasy feeling by the fact that she has to repress a smile while watching the Marauders humiliate Snape (haven't got my book here, sorry! but I know it's there). Even if you can't stand a person, seeing him or her treated in such a way is hardly a cause for mirth - or so I think. Just by way of clarification: I *don't* want to defend Snape calling Lily names, and I *do* understand why she backed off after having been insulted. But I can understand perfectly why Harry was upset at his father's behaviour, and I agree with him. Yours severely, Sigune ~who does confess she changed her opinion on the Marauders and Snape after reading the Pensieve scene, having no sympathy for playground bullies, and feels bound to add that, although Snape is her favourite character in the series, she certainly could not stand him in RL on account of his horrible behaviour in class. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 24 15:44:09 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:44:09 -0000 Subject: repost Re: Good & Evil in the Potterverse (was Harry Agonistes ( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99279 Sorry, messed up the attribution but good there. Pippin: > > > I didn't explain that well. I don't mean that the characters in > > > Tolkien, Lewis and Star Wars don't struggle with moral > issues. What I mean is that when Aragorn says, 'Good and ill > have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing > among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men,' nobody > thinks he's talking nonsense. And a similar sort of universal > morality prevails in the Star Wars movies: the Jedi have been > upholding one ideal of peace and freedom accepted across the galaxy for thousands of years > > > > > > But Rowling's world doesn't have that kind of unity. > > > > Naama: > > Now it's my turn to ask, are we reading the same books. I don't see any ambivalence at all regarding Right and Wrong in the Potterverse. IMO, JKR holds a universalistic concept of morality, and Aragorn's quote, "Good and ill have not changed..." could easily have been said by Dumbledore. << Pippin: Can you imagine Gandalf or Aragorn seeking alliance with Giants who "half-kill each other every few weeks" and decorate themselves with human bones? Would they offer rights and freedoms to the Orcs? JKR may well believe that there is a constant moral ideal and that everyone should aspire to it. Dumbledore does his best to influence others. But he does not assert the power to make other men see the truth, nor does he condemn out of hand those who do not see it as he does. The message of the Sorting Hat's new song, and of Dumbledore's closing words at the GoF feast imply to me that any aim, no matter how noble, may become corrupt once we close our hearts to those who do not share it. Now I could be wrong, and it may be that JKR has introduced this idea only to show us how wrong-headed it is. We'll see. To me JKR seems to be saying that while we are threatened by the truly perverse, we would do better to stop expecting that everyone conform to our ideal of morality and concentrate on fighting perversity together. Pippin From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon May 24 15:48:25 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:48:25 -0000 Subject: Another 12 and 13... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99280 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: snip > So his 13th trip to catch the train at King's Cross _will_ be on his > way to school. > > Cheers, > > Eustace_Scrubb Actually it will be his seventh trip to catch the train at King's Cross. Meri From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon May 24 16:06:36 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 16:06:36 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat, putting on her scuba gear > Sirius and Severus are both flawed. There are lots of reasons to like > and dislike each of them. > > To me, one difference between them, is that while neither let go of > the animosity, Snape at least contained his. Meri jumping in: Snape has contained his? With all those veiled references to Sirius' supposed cowardice, his haughty allusions to his risking his own life in service to the Order, and his treatment of Harry at school before he had even met the boy and could judge whether or not he was like his father? Snape tortured and humiliated Harry because he was a Potter, not because this eleven year old boy had ever done anything to him. You call this "containing his animosity"? And don't even get me started on his treatment of Neville. snip > Potioncat: > In OoP we learned that James was pretty rotten at times. Not only to > Snape. His friends say he'd hex people in the halls just because he > could. Perhaps we'll learn Snape wasn't/isn't so bad. Although, by > DD's trust we already see that. And it seems to me, that while DD > seemed to feel an affection for Sirius, he trusted Snape more. Meri again: Yes, in Order we learned that James was a flawed human being. And yes he was nasty. And yes he was arrogant. But as Lupin (or Sirius, can't remember which) said, don't judge him by what you see in one memory. He grew up eventually, something that I don't think Snape ever did, as evidenced by his treatment of Harry over the last five books. Now I'm not saying that Snape deserved what he got in that memory because no one deserves humiliation like that, but again, we don't know the whole story behind Snape and the Marauders. Snape supposedly came to school knowing more jinxes and hexes than most seventh years, so I would bet he used those whenever he wanted. As to DD trusting Snape more, in GoF he says he trusts both Snape and Sirius, and I see no evidence that he trusts Sirius any less than Snape. And, finally, as to Snape not being so bad, I am sure that he is on the side of good, and I am sure that DD trusts him for good reason. I do not believe that he will betray the Order and I believe that he acted as was best at the end of OotP. However, as a human being I find him lacking, as evidenced by his treatment of Harry and Neville in class, as evidenced by his actions in the Shreiking Shack, and as evidenced by his comment to Hermione as she was hit by a stray curse in GoF that made her front teeth grow abnormally large: "I see no difference." Cruel, petty and immature? I think so. Meri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 24 16:25:43 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 16:25:43 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: <20040524004726.45253.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > --- BrwNeil at a... wrote: > > Slytherin House must cease to exist. :) > > Rebecca: > > I think all houses must cease to exist. The sorting hat says houses > are bad, and I trust it. > > > ===== bboy_mn: Here is an interesting thought to ponder, although it addresses the thread only indirectly. 'Houses' tend to develope personalities even when the residents aren't sorted according to strict cirteria. At least that's what I've observed based on my own experience in my college days. I suspect that even if they stopped using the Sorting Hat, and divided new students into houses by some other more general and broad parameters very little would change. The school would still have four 'residence halls' for housing students, and I would logically guess that the houses or halls would retain the name of their founders. Gryffindor House would become Gryffindor Residence Tower; Ravenclaw Residence Tower, Hufflepuff Hall, and Slytherin Hall. There would still be fierce competition between the houses/halls/towers for the House Cup and for the Quidditch Cup. Back to my main point that Houses/Halls/Towers tend to develope personality associations even when students are assigned randomly. On college campuses various Residence Halls and Fraternity Houses have a reputation for being a certain way; the jock house, the brainiac house, the party house, etc.... They may not preceive themselves that way, but none the less, to the campus in general these preceptions exits. My secondary point is that even if they stopped using the Sorting Hat, many of the problems we see at Hogwarts would still exist because they are more a reflection of human nature than a reflection of the preceived division created by The Hat. Don't know what that adds, but there it is. bboy_mn From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 24 16:27:19 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 16:27:19 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99283 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: >> Sirius was able to admit that he was wrong to do those things, while I have always seen Snape paint himself as a martyr. He has sainted himself, and in five books I have never seen him once admit responsibility for something he did wrong.<< What about when he showed his Dark Mark to Fudge? All this ambiguity about whether Snape or Sirius is worse is very clever work on JKR's part, since it distracts us from Lupin who was worse than either of them. There is no question that he thought what he was doing was wrong and he continued to do it. Pippin From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon May 24 16:54:35 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 16:54:35 -0000 Subject: Slytherin in Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99284 "theadimail wrote: > > Hi, We know that The Sorting Hat has elements of all the four > founders of Hogwarts in it. If Godric Gryffindor's element was his sword which Harry pulled out, true to Gryffindor's essential quality which is supposed to be bravery, what could be the element of Salazar Slytherin that is hidden in it? > Wanda > It's difficult to guess: bravery=sword is an easy link to make, but what would equal "ambition"? I think the four founders are also representative of the four elements: fire, water, air and earth, all of which are necessary for life, and Slytherin would represent the water element, but how that could physically end up in the Sorting Hat is problematic. Perhaps we're not supposed to take the legend literally? Mandy here: I immediately though of the Tarot when I read the above posts. The four suits in Tarot are Swords, Cups, Wands, and Coins, and each suit is equated with one of the four elements, Air, Water, Fire and Earth. While thinking about symbolism and the four Hogwarts houses, this is what I came up with: The Sword of Gryffindor: Gryffindor as bravery is obviously the suit of Swords, as represented by the Sword of Godrick Gryffindor. Swords are equated with conflict. They point to decisive action and interaction, as well as mental activity. Very much Gryffindor to me. The element of air is the sword. The Wand of Slytherin: Slytherin as ambition has got to be the suit of Wands. Wands are all about Enterprise, Growth, Goals and Ambitions. The element of fire. You've got to have a fire burning in your soul to drive ambition. Drawing a wand out of the Sorting hat with Slytherin's name on it could be interesting. It could be seen as destructive, but also just the thing to achieve you goal with. The Coins of Ravenclaw: Ravenclaw is Coins. The suit of Coins represents the Material. Materialistic gain, but don't think necessarily about stereos and cars. Material gain also includes the need to know how why things are. The acquisition of knowledge, and achievement in understanding. The element of earth, the Coin. Very grounded and solid. The Cup of Hufflepuff: Hufflepuff, as the hard working kids who's focus is not on ambition, the material or bravery, are left with the matters of the heart and soul. The suit of Cups represents emotion and matters of the heart. The element of water. Just a thought. Cheers, Mandy From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 17:01:08 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 17:01:08 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99285 > > Potioncat, putting on her scuba gear snip > > > > To me, one difference between them, is that while neither let go > of > > the animosity, Snape at least contained his. > > Meri jumping in: Snape has contained his? With all those veiled > references to Sirius' supposed cowardice, his haughty allusions to > his risking his own life in service to the Order, and his treatment > of Harry at school before he had even met the boy and could judge > whether or not he was like his father? Snape tortured and humiliated > Harry because he was a Potter, not because this eleven year old boy > had ever done anything to him. Potioncat responding: I was referring to the episode in Sirius' kitchen, not to any other episode. Both of them come out acting like 15 year olds or maybe 5 year olds. Name calling and wand waving! But in my opinion, it was still Sirius who started it off. Yes, at that point Snape says "Sit down, Potter." and Sirius goes off the deep end. What was Snape supposed to say? He was there for a meeting with Potter as directed by Dumbledore. A teacher using a surname to a student is considered appropriate, sit down is not rude. "Sit!" might have been. The book does not give any clue as to the tone of voice Snape used when telling Potter to have a seat. >From that point on, it's just crazy! I think some of the episodes between Snape and Harry have been explained in different posts and I would welcome any other Snape fans to don scuba gear as well if we want to get into that thread. > snip snipping my first post(potioncat) > Meri again: Yes, in Order we learned that James was a flawed human > being. And yes he was nasty. And yes he was arrogant. But as Lupin > (or Sirius, can't remember which) said, don't judge him by what you > see in one memory. Potioncat: I brought up James only as a contrast, not to bad mouth James. He started out as a show off but must have changed. Everyone seems to remember him with great fondness. My point was that we started out thinking James was wonderful-boy and didn't learn until book 5 that he hadn't always been good. We may get a surprise about Snape as well. snipping Meri: Snape supposedly came to school knowing more jinxes and > hexes than most seventh years, so I would bet he used those whenever he wanted. Potioncat: Yes, and James enjoyed hexing people too. See, what bothers me a lot is that Sirius describes Snape as knowing hexes and jinxes as a bad thing. But thinks it's funny that James hexed people. It seems to me that James and Severus may have been a lot alike. And I also wonder if there isn't a foggy area of who was using dark arts and who wasn't? But I'm getting off our thread here. Meri: As to DD trusting Snape more, in GoF he says he trusts > both Snape and Sirius, and I see no evidence that he trusts Sirius > any less than Snape. Potioncat: My opinion is that DD trusted both as loyal. But he gave Snape a job and an active, dangerous role in the Order. He told Black to sit still and stay put. Now, I know some of that was to protect Black....but he didn't seem to think that Severus needed protection. So perhaps I should say he felt Severus was the one he could depend on? The one he gave more responsibility to? Meri: However, as a human being I find him lacking, as evidenced by his treatment of Harry and Neville in class, as evidenced by his actions in the Shreiking Shack, and as evidenced by his comment to Hermione as she was hit by a stray curse in GoF that made her front teeth grow abnormally large: "I see no difference." Cruel, petty and immature? > I think so. > Potioncat: I agree, as a human being he could use some work. I cannot excuse or forgive his treatment of Hermione, even though I have come up with a possible reason for it. But what did he do in the Shrieking Shack that you found so bad? Potioncat who hopes once again she hasn't rushed a response, but has a child to pick up from school. From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 24 17:05:26 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 17:05:26 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99286 Can I just add a bit to my rather testy original post. The fact that I am growing tired of the deification of Sirius does not mean that I excuse Snape's behaviour toward Harry, Neville or Hermione. He behaves abominably and I can find no excuse for it. However, all this business about Snape coming to school up to his ears in the dark arts comes from Sirius - hardly an unprejudiced witness. And when it comes to dragging Snape's supposed seduction of Regulus into the argument, without any authority from canon, it just makes me cross. Sylvia (who thinks Harry shows himself more grown-up than either of them in his reaction to the Pensieve scene). From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Mon May 24 17:30:10 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:30:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? Message-ID: <20040524173010.FROG29216.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99287 Meri: Yes, Sirius was an idiot. And he admits that. In Order he says that he and James were "arrogant little berks" and that he is not proud of some of the things they used to do at school. Silverthorne: I remember *Remus* admitting to some pretty stupid stuff that the Fab Fiyr did, but not Sirius.... BTW, guys, lets not 'stoop' to chewing on each other's fan preferences, okay? This subject is hot enough without throweing insults at each other. Silverthorne/Anne (Who quit *any* Sirius vs. Snape discussion because everyone tends to go for the throat and not just discuss possibilities--both guys were asses in their own right, and both have valid reasons for being the way they are. Cut it out and play nice, okay?) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 17:32:59 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 17:32:59 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99288 Slyvia: > Sylvia (who thinks Harry shows himself more grown-up than either of > them in his reaction to the Pensieve scene). Potioncat: And more grown up in the kitchen when Sirius and Severus were fighting too! From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon May 24 18:05:40 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 18:05:40 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99289 Nora Renka wrote: > Plain and simple, this is prejudiced. I've seen people try to argue around the Pureblood thing not being bigoted/discriminatory. If anyone here knows a good explication of this position, send it to me-every single one I've read has ducked the issue of essentialism. Slytherin House must cease to exist. :) Mandy here: Excellent post. And I want to play devils advocate for a while. How is prejudice based on blood any worst than prejudice based on intelligence or the amount of bravery a child has in him/her? Because we can control intelligence and bravery and we can't control the type of blood we are born with? But then one could argue, that just as intelligence and bravery can be improved over time with hard work and study, making it within the reach of any child who desires it, so can pure blood status be reached in time. It just takes longer than one generation to do it. What I am trying to say is this: How does the sorting hat make it's choices? Does it magically measure the amount of intelligence/bravery/blood a child has in its body and soul? And if so, is it based on what the child is carrying at birth, at 11 or at full maturity? Because if these children are selected for, let's say - Gryffindor, based solely on how much bravery they are born with or ever likley to have, then it is absolutely no different than selecting a child for Slytherin based on how much blood that child is born with or ever likley to have. It become beyond the child's control. With the exception of Hufflepuff, each house discriminates and is prejudice against the others. It just depends on where your tolerance lies as to what is acceptable discrimination. Is it better to segregate based on how brave a child is, rather than how much pure blood they have in their veins? What about those children considered not brave or not intelligent? Don't they live with shame and ridicule? Surely `You coward' or `you dummy' holds as much weight as `you mudblood'? Or for that matter, if we are to scrap Slytherin why not scrap Hogwarts itself. After all the whole school is one big house of prejudice. Not letting in muggle children. What about those muggle kids who want to learn magic? And before you say if can't be learned, it can. Otherwise why would Filtch bother to send away for a magical correspondence course? A squib had no magical powers right? He must have felt there was hope to even bother. What about those people Jo has mentioned who develop magic later in life? If we are to be so politically correct, let's open Hogwarts to all children. It is wrong to destroy Slytherin House without destroying the others. Are you not discriminating against the Slytherins and their freedon to chose how they live their lives? Blood is no less of a noble measure then intelligence, bravery or hard work. All have their faults, and all can produce good and evil. And before you can say what good can pureblood produce. Well, look at any of the royal families in existence today. You may not agree with their role in the modern world, but they do provide a figurehead for a nation that can produce fierce national pride and see a country through hard times. There is a certain pride and respect that comes with a family that has survived and been so successful for so long. Their blood is what ties them to their ancestors, and places them above all others, to be looked upon with pride, honour and deep respect. Just sharing nationality with that family is enough to produce the kind of devotion essential in a country striving for greatness. Royal families are the result of hundreds of years of bravery, intelligence, hard word and pureblooded, elitist breading. A perfect combination of all four of the qualities of the Hogwarts houses. I'm not saying Slytherin is right, but it has it's place along side Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff. Cheers, Mandy From burgess at cynjut.net Mon May 24 18:15:18 2004 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:15:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A DE ready to take over LV 's place after Godric's Hollow. In-Reply-To: <1085409186.25833.75330.m19@yahoogroups.com> References: <1085409186.25833.75330.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <40795.143.250.2.101.1085422518.squirrel@www2.neonramp.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99290 >vmonte: > >I wonder why the LongBottoms were attacked after LV was thought to >have been defeated. Is it possible that a certtain DE saw this as >their chance to become the new Lord Thingy? The only problem though, >was that LV's defeat/death was still only a rumor; they needed to >make sure that LV was really dead. So, when they found the >Longbottoms, they tortured them for information regarding the events >at Godric's Hollow. > There have been rumblings on the list about a 'romantic' relationship between Bellatrix and LV. While supplication to the master would be enough, if Bellatrix were also emotionally devoted to LV, she'd do whatever it took to find out if he was really gone and to take whatever steps were required to find him. Now, if a certain DE that was trying to position himself for the 'Evil Overlord' position (to quote userfriendly.org) then the obvious next step after the Vapormort incident would be to try and figure out how it happened and to try and figure out if he was "properly dead." Who do we know that has the kind of charisma and power (and money) to successfully draw a crowd, and the kind of anti-muggle leanings that would be needed to truly become the King of the WWorld? So, my supposition along this line is that Lucius Malfoy went with LV to attack the Potters (and probably would have followed up and done in the Longbottoms the same night) and saw the attack bounce back. Obviously, a year old child isn't going to be able to do magic, so it was clearly something else. Rather than risk another attack, he panics and leaves. Since Lucius doesn't seem the type to get his hands literally dirty, he doesn't think to just put Harry on the floor and stomp on his head. We've seen Lucius react rashly a couple of times in the past, so what would lead anyone to believe that he was LESS hot-headed as a relative youth? Anywqay, word gets back to the DEs through the Floo Network, where it is picked up by the WSA (Wizard Security Agency), who promptly forwards the message to the WBI and the WIA ([you figure it out] since it IS a domestic wizarding problem). "Of course, since the whole thing is a secret, everyone knows." >So, why didn't this person take over LV's "noble" cause? > In this scenario, two possible reasons: 1) The little brat isn't dead yet, and he just fulfilled the prophecy: "(all sing) Ding-dong, the wizard's dead...." Obviously, if this is the way Evil Overloards are going to be treated, there isn't much of an incentive to become one. 2) Who says he didn't? Assuming it was Lucius, we know that Lucius can be rash and taken by fits of temper, but we also know that he's willing to put a plan into motion that will literally take the bulk of the school year to come to fruition. Perhaps there are other nefarious schemes in place that will eventually put him in the position to start, through fiat, to exact some of these changes. He is on the Hogwarts Board of Regents (or whatever that group is) and any good techno-geek will tell you, the best way to get people to adopt your point of view is to expose them to it as children in a formal school setting. >Was it because they were captured and sent to prison? I doubt it. For all of the bluster and bravado, the DEs are nothing but a bunch of bullies. As such, when real force of will is required, they are likely to cave in like a house of cards. I'm thinking that, if anyone was in a position to take over, they would do it by establishing themselves, first, as a legitimate business man and upstanding member of the community. After that, kill anyone that disagrees with you, and pretty soon everyone left is on your side. > >Did they realize that LV was still alive as Vapormort and decided it >was too risky to take over? > That, I think, was part of the impetus for torturing the Longbottoms. They wanted to find out, for sure, what happened to LV. If he is properly dead, they can move on with Plan 'B'. If he isn't, they keep going with Plan 'A'. I've read (I don't remember if this is canonical) that one of the side-effects of multiple memory charms is muddled confusion. >Or, did this person defect to the Order to save their own skin? (They >may have realized that the DEs were being captured left and right and >may have thought their own capture was a matter of time.) > I'm thinking not. "I was Imperiod, I didn't know what I was doing. Look at all of the good things that I do for the community and what an upstanding member of the community I am." If Crabbe, Goyle, and Malfoy (senior) were a cell apart from the rest of the DEs, then they would only be implicated, but nothing would ever be proven if they kept their story straight. >I would like to know who sent Bellatrix after the LongBottoms? >Because I don't think it was her idea; although, she loves her work. > My bet is Lucius. He seems to type, and even though it is JKR, the obvious answer could be the right one. Of course, he would rely on a right-hand man to help him formulate the idea and to pick the right team. Someone like Snape (who seems more like the evil Vizir than an Evil Overlord). >I wonder if this person was planning for some time to take over as >Lord Thingy and came up with the idea of the prophecy as a way to >keep Voldemort busy and unfocused? If this is true, this person >knows LV's fears and weaknesses. And they could be using Trelawny as >a conduit for their own plan. > Now THAT is an interesting idea. Imperio Trelawny and have her speak the first prohecy where a DE or two could hear it. Dumbledore wouldn't know to look for the control, since the prophecy itself was stunning enough. It would take someone who was readily familiar with the Dark Arts, and was close to the school. If Snape put the words in her mouth, and Dumbledore believed them, and the spare DE overheard them (or made them up and reported that he heard them) then the master behind the Malfoy puppet would be Snape. In fact, if Snape helped Lily put the charms together to protect Harry, and told LV "Try not to hurt the girl, just kill the kid and move on" without realizing how much damage the spell rebound was going to do, that would explain why "Step aside, you silly girl" was there. If Snape was acting in his own enlightened self-interest, he could have also told Neville's parents how to protect the kid. This could also be a good reason for altering their memories to the point of addling them. OK, so where did I end up? Let me summarize: - Snape manages to produce the prophecy through Trelawny. He reports it to LV, who immediately takes it to heart. He then begins plotting the demise of all of the July-born children of people that have defied him. - Snape set up LV for the fall by giving Lily a charm to protect Harry from harm and to cause whatever spell was cast to rebound onto the caster. Since Snape is on the inside for LV, he would have specific knowledge about LV's weaknesses and strengths. This would probably have been enough to 'vanquish' LV, but then Lily tossed in a couple more that kicked in if she died protecting her kid. This extra spell protection is what really blew the house apart. The prophecy then becomes self-fulfilling through the actions of Snape. - Snape convinced Lucius Malfoy to try and find out if LV is properly dead. Snape has already called on the Longbottoms, and cast enough memory charms on them to put them on the verge of insanity. Follow this up with the various spells and charms from Bellatrix, and they are permanently hosed, mentally. He knew that Bellatrix would screw with their heads (or made sure she would) thus finishing the job he'd started earlier. - All the while, Snape is reporting the movements of the DE to DD. This convinces DD that Snape is a trustworthy member of the team. Plausible deniability, a reasonable level of indirection, and he never actually does any of the work himself. I like it. Dave From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon May 24 18:19:36 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 18:19:36 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99291 Major snips and then Meri jumps back in: > Potioncat: > My opinion is that DD trusted both as loyal. But he gave Snape a > job and an active, dangerous role in the Order. He told Black to > sit still and stay put. Now, I know some of that was to protect > Black....but he didn't seem to think that Severus needed > protection. So perhaps I should say he felt Severus was the one he > could depend on? The one he gave more responsibility to? Meri now: DD was, of course, protecting Sirius, but not from LV. He's being protected from the Ministry, which is at the time doing all it can to undermine DD and is still desperately clining to the belief that Sirius is a mass murderer. Sirius is still a wanted man with a 10000 Galleon price on his head, and his dog-disguise was blown, so there wasn't really anything he actively could do. Snape, as a former member of LV's inner circle, would obviously have the more important job. And of course Snape didn't need protection. He's not a wanted man. And even if he did need protecting, wouldn't DD's protection have blown Snape's cover as well? > Meri: > However, as a human being I find him lacking, as evidenced by his > treatment of Harry and Neville in class, as evidenced by his actions > in the Shreiking Shack, and as evidenced by his comment to Hermione > as she was hit by a stray curse in GoF that made her front teeth > grow abnormally large: "I see no difference." Cruel, petty and > immature? > > I think so. > > > > > Potioncat: > I agree, as a human being he could use some work. I cannot excuse > or forgive his treatment of Hermione, even though I have come up > with a possible reason for it. > > But what did he do in the Shrieking Shack that you found so bad? > Meri again: In the Shreiking Shack he let his petty schoolboy quarrells take over. He wouldn't listen to reason from any of them, and seemingly fully intended to throw not just Sirius, but Lupin as well to the dementors, two perfectly innocent men whom he could not forgive long enough to listen to hear them out. Even Harry, who believed Sirius to be responsible for his parents' murder wound up listening to Sirius, and he had far more cause to be angry at Sirius than Snape does. Anyway, as Harry said himself, Snape acted pathetically. And I would be very interested to know what you think his reasoning is behind his insult of Hermione. Meri - who often wonders how things would have been different if Snape had been made to listen. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 24 18:51:03 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 18:51:03 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99292 Potioncat snipping part of her own > > But what did he do in the Shrieking Shack that you found so bad? > > > > Meri again: In the Shreiking Shack he let his petty schoolboy > quarrells take over. He wouldn't listen to reason from any of them, > and seemingly fully intended to throw not just Sirius, but Lupin as > well to the dementors, two perfectly innocent men whom he could not > forgive long enough to listen to hear them out. Potioncat: Well, he was expecting Lupin to transform at any minute. And I'm not sure I would have bought that story either...not without seeing Scabbers transfigure into Pettigrew. At best, he would have had to take them all in for DD to question...wait a minute, he did take them all in for DD to question. But this takes us right into the post with a subject "who is Harry acting like..." {oops, I forgot the actual heading and I don't know how to go back without losing this.} But there is a very good comment by Pippin about the Shreiking Shack in post # 99025. snip Meri And I would be very interested to know what you think > his reasoning is behind his insult of Hermione. > > Meri - who often wonders how things would have been different if > Snape had been made to listen. Potioncat: I'll address Hermione at a different time. I need to refer to canon or to one of my previous posts, but at any rate, I need more time (and my time turner is in the shop) But I want to add, that I find his behavior at that time inexcusable even if he did have a reason. How would things have been different if Snape had been made to listen...I wonder that as well! Potioncat who is having fun with this and hopes you are too! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 18:57:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 18:57:04 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99293 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat snipping part of her own > > > But what did he do in the Shrieking Shack that you found so bad? > > > > > > > Meri again: In the Shreiking Shack he let his petty schoolboy > > quarrells take over. He wouldn't listen to reason from any of > them, > > and seemingly fully intended to throw not just Sirius, but Lupin > as > > well to the dementors, two perfectly innocent men whom he could > not > > forgive long enough to listen to hear them out. > > Potioncat: > Well, he was expecting Lupin to transform at any minute. And I'm > not sure I would have bought that story either...not without seeing > Scabbers transfigure into Pettigrew. At best, he would have had to > take them all in for DD to question...wait a minute, he did take > them all in for DD to question. > > But this takes us right into the post with a subject "who is Harry > acting like..." {oops, I forgot the actual heading and I don't know > how to go back without losing this.} But there is a very good > comment by Pippin about the Shreiking Shack in post # 99025. Hi, Potioncat! Yes, if Snape did not hear complete story, he certainly had reasons to think of Sirius as a murderer. Do you remember by the way, if PoA addresses how long he had been standing there in the invisibility cloak. I thought PoA was fuzzy on the subject, but no I am not so sure. > Potioncat: > How would things have been different if Snape had been made to > listen...I wonder that as well! > > Potioncat who is having fun with this and hopes you are too! Alla, who is absolutely having fun talking to potioncat and wants to thank her for being very respectful debater. :o) From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 24 19:15:59 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 19:15:59 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99294 > > > > Meri again: In the Shreiking Shack he let his petty schoolboy quarrells take over. He wouldn't listen to reason from any of them, and seemingly fully intended to throw not just Sirius, but Lupin as well to the dementors, two perfectly innocent men whom he could not forgive long enough to listen to hear them out. << ESE! considerations aside, neither Sirius nor Lupin was acting like an innocent man. Sirius had broken into Gryffindor Tower with a knife, and Lupin had withheld information about Sirius and about the map. Worse than that, he hadn't taken his potion and was about to transform into a dangerous monster. There is no canon that Snape heard anything in the shack prior to when the door opened. That would mean Snape was present when Lupin confessed that he should have turned his information about Sirius over to Dumbledore, and that he and Sirius had made the map. Snape was *not* present when the Trio were told that Ron's rat was Pettigrew, or to see Scabbers try to escape from Sirius. Granted that Snape lost his temper almost immediately and regressed to his teenaged self, and that he was wrong to threaten them with the dementors, but he had no reason at all to think that Lupin or Sirius was innocent at that point. Snape is much more familiar than Harry with the tactics of Lord Voldemort--it's not safe to give his servants free rein, because they'll trick, jinx or blackmail you if they can. Remember, even in court, with dementors just outside, Bella and her cohorts were chained to their chairs. As for Snape's insult of Hermione, no, it wasn't right. But after all, three or four months earlier, Harry, Ron and Hermione thought themselves perfectly capable of taking on two full grown Death Eaters, and now they want Snape's help to deal with...Draco Malfoy? Gimme a break! Pippin who wonders what would have happened if Harry had let Snape take Sirius, Lupin and Pettigrew up to the castle. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 14:10:42 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 07:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] two questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040524141042.84394.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99295 theadimail wrote: > Hi, > What's a basset hound? Mundungus is described as looking > like one. I am a dog trainer and know a great deal about the different dog breeds. This one is fairly easy. I do not know which side of the "pond" you are on, but if you are on the US side... think of the Hush Puppy Shoes dog with the long face and the long, floppy ears. They are short and always have this sad and "life done me wrong" look on their faces (though the puppies are to DIE for!!) If that does not clear that up, go to AKC.org and look then up under "breeds" and it will give you more info. Hope that helps Moonmyyst (who prefers the shaggy, herding dogs) From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Mon May 24 19:34:57 2004 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 19:34:57 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99296 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > > > What concerns me more on the issue of the Good Slytherin, is > > JKR's statement that too many of the people on the chat she > > attended identified with Slytherin. It really sounds like she > > considers Slytherins the bad guys. < > > > Pippin wrote: > > Erm, that's not exactly what she said. > > http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=63 > > > > "I was concerned to find that many of the moderators feel their > > spiritual home is Slytherin" > > > > > > I don't think there's any question but JKR believes that > Gryffindor > > values are spiritually superior to Slytherin ones and wants us to > > think so too. That does not say that Slytherins themselves are > > morally inferior to Gryffindors. Slytherins, though schooled to be > > cunning, opportunistic and exclusionary, may just as freely > > choose to serve a greater good, while Gryffindors are every bit as > > capable of wrongdoing, despite that they ought to know better. > > > > Potioncat again: > Well, I think you and I may agree (?) that Slytherins can be as > moral as Gryffindors or Gryffindors as amoral as Slytherins....my > point is, quoted or paraphrased, it sounds to me that JKR sees the > Slyterins as bad....Hatfields vrs McCoys, Robin Hood vrs King John, > Lancasters vrs Yorks. A "good" side and a "bad" side. > > That's not how I want it turn out, you understand. I'm hoping > she'll pull the rug out by having good Slytherins. > > Potioncat I think it's practically a definite. She's been laying clues all along that while Slytherin House and many individual Slytherins do have and present real problems, the unilateral equation of Slytherin and Bad isn't accurate. In the first book we see Snape (a Slytherin) turn out to be among the heroes instead of the villain. In the second we have Voldemort humanized (though this does NOT mean made out to be good or excusable), and even though it's also implied that being in Slytherin would have been a bad choice, it's emphasized that Salazar looked for some pretty good qualities. (We also have Hermione being quite ruthless. Let's drug 'em and take their shoes! Honestly, Salazar would have had to either use her as an example of why Muggle-borns couldn't be trusted, or co-opt her, and I think the latter might have been safer for the rest of his students.) In PoA both the believed and the real villain are... drumroll... Gryffindors, and that means that even as a public perception, "Every witch or wizard who went bad was in Slytherin" isn't accurate. In GoF, I keep blanking. *wry grin* In OotP, we even get a new, fun Slytherin -- Phineas Nigellus -- and for all the irritation he's provoked before, and for all Harry's fury at Snape that leads some to think he'll never come around, those imaginings about the Slytherin who was the Least Popular Hogwarts Headmaster Ever and how he might mourn Sirius were... awfully sympathetic, don't you think? But actually, I think a very key piece of evidence is right in PS, on the very first occasion when Harry looks at the Slytherin table and evaluates them: "It might have been Harry's imagination, after all he'd heard about Slytherin House, but he thought they looked an unpleasant lot." (Slightly paraphrased.) I think it's crystal clear from that quote that the anti-Slytherin bias is something JKR is absolutely aware of, and that it's both intentional and intentionally unfair -- not unfounded, but unfair as a full generalization. The very first time Harry gets a look at Slytherin House as a whole and makes a sweeping negative statement about them himself, planted in the same sentence is the suggestion that he's *imagining* more ill of them is there, based on what he's heard elsewhere. PK From Snarryfan at aol.com Mon May 24 15:19:19 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:19:19 -0000 Subject: Curious Duality of Snape: (was: Harry begins to act ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99297 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Potioncat: > ESE!Dementors, now that's a nightmare! But does Snape "know" > that? Does Snape suspect that? And in this episode he didn't see them > attack Harry did he? > Directly from POA, Page387, chap 21: "What amazes me most is the behavior of the dementors...you've really no idea what made them retreat, Snape?" "No, Minister...by the time I come 'round they were heading back to their positions at the entrances..." There, he said he only saw them go away after he's awaked. But page 421 (chap 22): "And the dementors?" said Dumbledore."They'll be removed from the school, I trust?" "Oh yes, they'll have to go,"said Fudge, running his fingers distractedly through his hair."Never dreamed they'd attempt to administer the Kiss on an innocent boy..." Nobody saw the dementor trying to Kiss Harry, every one was fainted, so how Fudge could know that ? Christelle. From Snarryfan at aol.com Mon May 24 15:35:00 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:35:00 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99298 Potioncat: > Are you asking if Snape wears his heart on his sleeve? Or if he has > also has a "saving people" thing? The answer to both just might be > yes. In his case, he also has a strong need for recognition. > Which he doesn't seem to get. > > It's hard to say if the Life Debt which he feels is unpaid, is a > debt of honor or a magically-bound debt. But something is motivating > him to watch out for Harry. He's stepped in once or twice to help out > Neville too. And I think the real reason he's stalking the halls > at night is for the safety of the students, not for a snack. Well, Jo loves show us something to better leads us elsewhere. We often were sure about a thing and she showed later that we were completely wrong. I don't have an example there, it's like when she make Harry thinks again and again something, we end to believe it, and it was a trap. In GOF, chap 25, page 411: "I merely thought," said Snape, in a voice of forced calm,"that if Potter was wandering around after hours again...it's an unfortunate habit of his...he should be stopped. For-for his own safety." "Ah, I see" said Moody softly. "Got Potter's best interests at heart, have you?" The first instinct of the reader is 'of course Snape lies, he doesn't care about Harry!' And if we are wrong? Maybe Jo hides something, that Snape really thinks to Harry's safety. Maybe against himself (I hate him but I want to protect him), and it's why he made the 'For-for', he doesn't want admit that to himself and to the others. Christelle From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon May 24 15:45:59 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:45:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: <000001c43ee3$a13db290$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99299 | Sherry Writes: | | I wonder, now that the comparison of the two scenes has come into my mind, | if Snape saw any of the marauders being attacked by dementors, | what would he | have done. Harry keeps trying to warn Dudley, even while he's looking for | his wand, even after Dudley has just slugged him. That's the thing that | always struck me in this scene. Dudley has tormented Harry all | these years, | but he still tries to protect him and does save him. To me, that | shows good | stuff in Harry's character. I don't know if I think Snape would | have acted | the same in similar circumstances. And I'm not one who thinks Snape is a | traitor or anything. I find his character to be very complex and | interesting. I just think that Harry acted with compassion, and I don't | know that Snape would have. I guess it all goes back to Harry's desire to | save people. [Lee pokes out her head]: In COS, Snape did move to save Harry from the snake brought forth by Malfoy in the Dueling Club incident. You're very right in the complexity of Snape's character. I think he, deep down where he hopes no one can see it, has some love and/or compassion, but disguises it, perhaps even on a subconscious level, to look like something else because he (1) doesn't want to be perceived as weak and (2) just plain won't allow himself to believe he has those qualities. He seems to need/want the glory or power, I think, but perhaps that goes back to his bad treatment as a kid, too...observe the fragment of memory Harry picked up in the Occlumancy class in OOTP. So, yes, in one way, Snape has the need to prove himself and it's a far more surface thing; any compassion is as buried as it can get but will manifest itself at the oddest times. I don't think that his attempt to save Harry from the snake was all tied up with either a debt to James or with the need to be sure a student remained unharmed at the school. I want to believe there was something else in that action. Lee :-) (Ever hopeful.) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 24 19:51:35 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 19:51:35 -0000 Subject: Bad news ... for Slytherins- The Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "persephone_kore" wrote: >In GoF, I keep blanking. *wry grin* < All the girls in COMC cluster around the unicorn to pet it, which would include the Slytherin girls. At the closing feast all the Slytherins stand to honor Cedric Diggory and some of them stand to honor Harry Potter. Pippin From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 24 19:49:56 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 19:49:56 -0000 Subject: two questions In-Reply-To: <20040524141042.84394.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99301 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > theadimail wrote: > > Hi, > > What's a basset hound? Mundungus is described as looking > > like one. Moonmyyst: > I am a dog trainer and know a great deal about the different dog breeds. This one is fairly easy. I do not know which side of the "pond" you are on, but if you are on the US side... think of the Hush Puppy Shoes dog with the long face and the long, floppy ears. They are short and always have this sad and "life done me wrong" look on their faces Geoff: We do have Hush Puppies on this side of the pond as well. Another clue might be, if you're on the east side of the pond is that one of the daily newspapers (Daily Mail??) has (or had) a srip cartoon called "Fred Bassett" about the doings of - guess - a Bassett hound. From Snarryfan at aol.com Mon May 24 15:46:48 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:46:48 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99302 Potiocat wrote: > [Snip] > > I'm not entirely certain that Snape understands that Harry isn't > like [his father] that. I don't think that Snape doesn't understand. I think he doesn't want to see/understand it. I made a post about it, n? 98299 What I said was that: It is really difficult to change, very frightening, and Snape could be scared to forget the past and go forward. Hatred is easy and comfortable to him; it's familiar. If he sees that Harry's childhood is not what he thought but worse, similar to his own childhood, he'll have to acknowledge that Harry is not James, that James is really gone and that he can't hurt him anymore. He would have to accept that the past is just that, the past, and a new life is here. He would also have to accept what he's done when he was a DE. Yeah, he knows what he did, and he told all (maybe) to Albus, but does he realize or accept it? Could he do like Andrew in Buffy, only he sees his past in such a way as to not see the truth, to stay in his difficult, yes, but so familiar life? Could he be too scared to go forward and repent? Or to go forward at all? He could create in his mind an exaggerated view of Harry's acts to compare them with what he sees -- James -- and not separate the son from the father. I think he began to see the real Harry, and it bothers him, so he kept attacking him on a 'safe' subject (so-called stupidity, arrogance, etc.) to stay in his safe 'world'. Every time that Harry reacts, Snape sees Potter, his Harry, the Little James one, and it's what he wants to see. Christelle (At the same time, the year where someone really sees what the Dursleys have done is the one where someone finally warns the Dursleys in person. Yeah, it could be only a coincidence ;D) From mnaperrone at aol.com Mon May 24 16:41:24 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 16:41:24 -0000 Subject: Prank/Sirius' motives/Regulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99303 > > Ally: > > I don't doubt that Sirius and Snape had a history or that Snape > > also engaged in some bad behavior towards the Marauders. But > > in my mind, no amount of pranks and teasing and hexes justifies > > a kid engaging in what is basically attempted murder. > Alla: > When I know for sure that Sirius PLANNED to get Snape killed, I > will absolutely agree with you that it was an attempted murder. > For now, I will reserve judgment on that. Ally: Whether he PLANNED to get Snape killed or not, Snape being dead would have been the end result if James hadn't intervened. I don't see how it redeems Sirius one bit to say that, at age 15, he didn't understand the effects of luring Snape into mortal danger. I am constantly appalled by this action on his part. Alla wrote: > Again, if he got Regulus involved with > the Death Eaters, I can see Sirius getting incredibly angry and > understandably so. Also nowhere in my posts I said that Prank was > justifiable, I said that there are could be UNDERSTANDABLE reasons > of why Sirius got irrationally angry. I believe that those reasons, > which we are not aware of yet will allow me to forgive Sirius for > what he did, not justify it by any means. :o) Ally: Well, I think the idea of Snape recruiting Regulus is a stretch. First, Snape and Sirius were 15, and there's no indication that teenagers are joining the DEs. Second, the Black family comes from a long line of Slytherins of which apparently ONLY Sirius was a misfit, not Regulus. Wouldn't it be more likely that their own cousin, Bellatrix, would have had a hand in recruiting Regulus? Or that the whole family expected it? And isn't it written somewhere that the reason Sirius did it is because he was fed up with Snape following them around? I don't think it got more complex than that. Of course, it's in Sirius' nature to be impetuous and act without thinking - that's what ultimately got him killed. So, I do understand that this flaw is behind the things he does. But Sirius also seemed to have a sense of entitlement and ego as a youth that I have a hard time finding attractive or the least bit sympathetic. So, unless JKR comes out and says Snape tried to kill Lupin or Sirius a few days before, I have a hard time believing there will ever be anything truly forgivable about Sirius' actions. From CoyotesChild at charter.net Mon May 24 19:57:34 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:57:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c441c9$5f5849b0$6401a8c0@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 99304 >Pippin > >What about when he showed his Dark Mark to Fudge? All this >ambiguity about whether Snape or Sirius is worse is very clever >work on JKR's part, since it distracts us from Lupin who was >worse than either of them. There is no question that he thought >what he was doing was wrong and he continued to do it. > Iggy here. I must admit to some confusion. How is Lupin worse than either Sirius or Snape? It's my opinion that he was not only the most responsible of the Marauders, but he's also the only adult (with the possible exception of Prof. MacGonagall) who actually cares about Harry and tries to watch over him with a truly level head. Sirius and Snape both see/saw Harry as a young James Dumbledore allowed himself to be blinded by his own emotions so far as Harry is concerned. Molly is overprotective of him. Arthur... well, ok... add Arthur to the list with Lupin and Minerva... He actually has a moderately realistic idea of what Harry's capable and who he is. Hagrid places too much on Harry's shoulders and asks him to accept a lot... even if it's upholding Hagrid's expectations of him. Petunia and Vernon only care for him because they don't really have much choice. Fudge has professed to be watching out for Harry (in PoA) but actually fears him (as shown in GoF and OotP.) Fake!Moody watched out for Harry, but only to deliver him to Voldemort, and we don't really know HOW the real Moody thinks of him. Tonks likes Harry, but she, IMHO, sees him as a little brother type of person who she likes and is friends with, but knows she'd have her work too cut out for her to watch over him alone and would rather be part of a team helping him. (My own speculation from what I read in OotP.) All in all, I don't really see how Lupin is worse than any of these people... Iggy McSnurd From mnaperrone at aol.com Mon May 24 16:48:02 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 16:48:02 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99305 Meri wrote: > >> Sirius was able to admit that he was wrong to do those > things, while I have always seen Snape paint himself as a > martyr. He has sainted himself, and in five books I have never > seen him once admit responsibility for something he did > wrong.<< Pippin wrote: > > What about when he showed his Dark Mark to Fudge? All this > ambiguity about whether Snape or Sirius is worse is very clever > work on JKR's part, since it distracts us from Lupin who was > worse than either of them. There is no question that he thought > what he was doing was wrong and he continued to do it. EXCELLENT POINT PIPPIN!! I myself almost forgot how much I sometimes loathe this quality in Remus (I'd loathe Remus, but JKR has made that nearly impossible!), b/c I got caught up in the Snape/Sirius comparison. You are absolutely right. Lupin's flaw is really the most reprehensible of all, isn't it? At least Sirius and Snape will pick a side - although they may make mistakes about it - and fight for it. Remus fully understood it there was no justification for doing terrible things to Snape. He allowed it because he was too weak and afraid to stop it. The question is often asked for civil rights atrocities - who is worse, the person with the hate or the person without it who allows the hate-fueled violence to take place? A very good question, I think. Remus doesn't get a pass with me, because he's a nice guy. I think people should be much more critical of his weaknesses. That said, do you think JKR will do something significant with it in future books? Ally From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon May 24 20:05:38 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:05:38 -0500 Subject: book 7 my most hated ending Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99306 Before posting I would like to say I DO NOT believe this will happen, but I just had a thought about this ending that is in my opinion overdone in modern writing. I HATE IT! My worst fear is that Harry would die and then wake up back at the Dursley's with all of this having been a dream and him looking to find himself back under the stairs. Now THAT would be horrible! Gina A. Miller [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Mon May 24 19:55:50 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 19:55:50 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? (Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99307 > Pippin: > As for Snape's insult of Hermione, no, it wasn't right. But after > all, three or four months earlier, Harry, Ron and Hermione > thought themselves perfectly capable of taking on two full grown > Death Eaters, and now they want Snape's help to deal > with...Draco Malfoy? Gimme a break! McMax: Harry & Ron just want Snape to do his job and maintain discipline not just let that nasty little snake get away with everything, like he always does. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 20:07:25 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:07:25 -0000 Subject: Prank/Sirius' motives/Regulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99308 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > Ally: > > Well, I think the idea of Snape recruiting Regulus is a stretch. > First, Snape and Sirius were 15, and there's no indication that > teenagers are joining the DEs. Second, the Black family comes from a > long line of Slytherins of which apparently ONLY Sirius was a misfit, > not Regulus. Wouldn't it be more likely that their own cousin, > Bellatrix, would have had a hand in recruiting Regulus? Or that the > whole family expected it? > > And isn't it written somewhere that the reason Sirius did it is > because he was fed up with Snape following them around? I don't > think it got more complex than that. Well, we obviously differ on this one, but I am ready to chew my words at the end of book 7. :o) It does not say anywhere that that was the reason that Sirius sent Snape to shack, as far as I remember. I remember Sirius complaining about Snape following them around, but definitely not stating that as a reason. I think that this is another example of JKR's cunning writing style. > So, unless JKR comes out and says Snape tried to kill Lupin or Sirius > a few days before, I have a hard time believing there will ever be > anything truly forgivable about Sirius' actions. So, wait, are you saying that nothing less that Severus considering attempted murder is sufficient excuse for Sirius' actions? Even if it will turn out that Sirius truly did not think that Remus will kill him? Well, it is your prerroggative, of course to held this point of view. :o) Alla From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 24 20:08:45 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:08:45 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: Lee: > In COS, Snape did move to save Harry from the snake brought forth by Malfoy > in the Dueling Club incident. You're very right in the complexity of > Snape's character. I think he, deep down where he hopes no one can see it, > has some love and/or compassion, but disguises it, perhaps even on a > subconscious level, to look like something else because he (1) doesn't want > to be perceived as weak and (2) just plain won't allow himself to believe he > has those qualities. > > He seems to need/want the glory or power, I think, but perhaps that goes > back to his bad treatment as a kid, too...observe the fragment of memory > Harry picked up in the Occlumancy class in OOTP. > > So, yes, in one way, Snape has the need to prove himself and it's a far more > surface thing; any compassion is as buried as it can get but will manifest > itself at the oddest times. I don't think that his attempt to save Harry > from the snake was all tied up with either a debt to James or with the need > to be sure a student remained unharmed at the school. I want to believe > there was something else in that action. Geoff: That incident is rather an interesting one. Let's look at canon for a minute: 'Snape moved nearer to Malfoy and whispered something in his ear. Malfoy smirked too. Harry looked nervously up at Lockhart and said "Professor, could you show me that blocking thing again?" "Scared?" muttered Malfoy, so that Lockhart couldn't hear him. "You wish," said Harry out of the corner of his mouth. Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder. "Just do what I did, Harry!" "What, drop my wand?" But Lockhart wasn't listening. "Three - two - one - go!" he shouted. Malfoy raised his wand quickly and bellowed "Serpensortia!" The end of his wand exploded. Harry watched, aghast, as a long black snake shot out of it, fell heavily onto the floor between them and raised itself, ready to strike. There were screams as the crowd backed swiftly away, clearing the floor. "Don't move, Potter," said Snape lazily, clearly enjoying the sight of Harry standing motionless, eye to eye with the angry snake. "I'll get rid of it..."' (COS "The Duelling Club" p.145 UK edition) Now certain things have already been suggested in the past about this incident. (1) What exactly did Snape whisper to him? Why was Malfoy smirking? Was it because Malfoy had just been given this spell? (2) If Snape is keen on saving Harry, why is he lazily enjoying the sight? Certainly looks more along the glory/power line than rescuing Harry.... From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 24 20:42:42 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:42:42 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: <000201c441c9$5f5849b0$6401a8c0@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99310 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: > >Pippin > > > >What about when he showed his Dark Mark to Fudge? All this ambiguity about whether Snape or Sirius is worse is very clever work on JKR's part, since it distracts us from Lupin who was worse than either of them. There is no question that he thought what he was doing was wrong and he continued to do it. > > > > Iggy here. > > I must admit to some confusion. How is Lupin worse than either Sirius or Snape? It's my opinion that he was not only the most responsible of the Marauders, but he's also the only adult (with the possible exception of Prof. MacGonagall) who actually cares about Harry and tries to watch over him with a truly level head. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99311 Meri snips out her original post about the Shreiking Shack > Potioncat: > Well, he was expecting Lupin to transform at any minute. And I'm > not sure I would have bought that story either...not without seeing > Scabbers transfigure into Pettigrew. At best, he would have had to > take them all in for DD to question...wait a minute, he did take > them all in for DD to question. Meri: You make a fair point. It must be a testament to how well written that book is because I am always surprised when Lupin transforms into the werewolf after that scene, and I usually forget that little detail about the wolfsbane potion. (On a side note, I really wish JKR would get in to the specifics about lycanthropy in her universe.) Anyway, had he listened to Sirius and Lupin's protests and taken them straight up to the castle (and not threatened them with dementorization) then things would have, of course, been very different. > Potioncat who is having fun with this and hopes you are too! Meri - having a great time, though she is ready to admit that it is clear that neither of us will see eye to eye on this particular issue... From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon May 24 21:14:18 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:14:18 -0000 Subject: Why Drag Harry Into It? Was: Re: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99312 Pippin: > Granted that Snape lost his temper almost immediately and > regressed to his teenaged self, and that he was wrong to > threaten them with the dementors, but he had no reason at all to > think that Lupin or Sirius was innocent at that point. > Pippin > who wonders what would have happened if Harry had let Snape > take Sirius, Lupin and Pettigrew up to the castle. Annemehr: But Snape's inability to control his temper was fatal. I agree with your assessment of his opinion of Black and Lupin at this point, but if he felt urgency with regard to Lupin's transformation, why didn't he take the most expedient course? From PoA: ----------------------------------------------------------- "Vengeance is very sweet," Snape breathed at Black. "How I hoped I would be the one to catch you...." "The joke's on you again, Severus," Black snarled. "As long as this boy brings his rat up to the castle" -- he jerked his head at Ron -- "I'll come quietly...." "Up to the castle?" said Snape silkily. "I don't think we need to go that far. All I have to do is call the dementors once we get out of the Willow. They'll be very pleased to see you, Black...pleased enough to give you a little kiss, I daresay...." --------------------------------------------------------------- This was Snape's opportunity to save everyone from the murderer and the werewolf right here. Black had agreed to go up to the castle; Harry certainly wouldn't have stood in the way of that -- *if only he had known that's what Snape would really have done.* Annemehr who is not sure if Snape may have actually meant to do just as he said, and only thought better of it later From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 21:21:34 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:21:34 -0000 Subject: Why Drag Harry Into It? Was: Re: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99313 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > Pippin previously: > > > Granted that Snape lost his temper almost immediately and > > regressed to his teenaged self, and that he was wrong to > > threaten them with the dementors, but he had no reason at all to > > think that Lupin or Sirius was innocent at that point. > > > Pippin > > who wonders what would have happened if Harry had let Snape > > take Sirius, Lupin and Pettigrew up to the castle. > > Annemehr: > But Snape's inability to control his temper was fatal. I agree with > your assessment of his opinion of Black and Lupin at this point, but > if he felt urgency with regard to Lupin's transformation, why didn't > he take the most expedient course? From PoA: > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > "Vengeance is very sweet," Snape breathed at Black. "How I hoped I > would be the one to catch you...." > > "The joke's on you again, Severus," Black snarled. "As long as this > boy brings his rat up to the castle" -- he jerked his head at Ron -- > "I'll come quietly...." > > "Up to the castle?" said Snape silkily. "I don't think we need to go > that far. All I have to do is call the dementors once we get out of > the Willow. They'll be very pleased to see you, Black...pleased enough > to give you a little kiss, I daresay...." > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > This was Snape's opportunity to save everyone from the murderer and > the werewolf right here. Black had agreed to go up to the castle; > Harry certainly wouldn't have stood in the way of that -- *if only he > had known that's what Snape would really have done.* > > Annemehr > who is not sure if Snape may have actually meant to do just as he > said, and only thought better of it later Anne, you are absolutely right. Had Severus calmed down a bit and did that right away, I guess we would be reading a different story. I am certainly ready to excuse his behaviour as temporary insanity, but I am not ready to praise it. While I was feeling bad for both Snape and Sirius in the Shrieking Shack, Harry is definitely the one, who behaved maturely there and deserves praise for that, IMO. Alla From LadySawall at aol.com Mon May 24 21:24:54 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 17:24:54 EDT Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? Message-ID: <1e6.21179dbc.2de3c226@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99314 In a message dated 05/24/2004 10:34:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sylvia writes: I simply can't believe some of the excuses the Sirius-lovers are coming up with to defend their darling. So Snape may have possibly recruited Regulus into the DE (evidence??). This makes Sirius cross and it is understandable (though not, of course, justifiable)that he should want to feed Severus to his werewolf friend. Oh, he did it just to scare him did he? How exactly was he going to prevent Snape being torn limb from limb? If he really didn't anticipate the consequences of what he was doing, then he WAS an idiot. If he did, he was prepared to let Snape die. Something I read in TIME a couple of weeks ago, which may be relevant--and I hasten to assure any teenagers reading this that it is not intended as a slam: Apparently, although the human brain reaches its full mass very early on, it matures in stages through one's early 20's, and the last part to mature is the prefrontal cortex--the area which governs "sober second thought." According to the article, "The parts of the brain responsible for things like sensation seeking are getting turned on in big ways around the time of puberty...But the parts for exercising judgment are still maturing throughout the course of adolescence. So you've got this time gap between when things impel kids toward taking risks early in adolescence, and when things that allow people to think before they act come online." Now I am not a Sirius apologist, though I don't discount the possibility that Snape did something truly awful that provoked him. But I do think that his youth (as well as the other Marauders', Snape's, and Lily's) should be given a certain amount of weight when judging his/their actions around that time. (Same for Harry and his friends, for that matter.) That said, there *is* a rather large difference between taking risks with one's own life and risks with someone else's. I don't think Sirius was a heartless bastard or a cold-blooded killer, but I do think there's a lot of Black in him, and he probably spent his entire life struggling against it. What I personally find most disturbing about the Prank, however, is the sheer number of Things That Could Have Gone Wrong: 1. The most obvious consequence, and the one that seems to get the most attention: Snape could have been killed. (Or mangled. Or maimed.) 2. Snape could have been turned into a werewolf, and I am frankly astonished that Sirius didn't give *that* one a second thought. Not so much because of the problems it would cause Snape, but because of the problems it would cause the Marauders! They all knew quite well how problematical even a friendly werewolf could be--imagine having one after you who hates your guts and blames you for his condition! 3. Remus could have been hurt. Now I am certain (as I may have said before) that if Snape and Lupin had tangled that night, Snape would have lost, probably quite spectacularly. It's unlikely he had any silver on him. But do we know for a fact that he couldn't have found *any* way to hurt the werewolf? (Any experts on JKR werewolf physiology? Are they immune to magic?) And if he managed to get out of the Shrieking Shack alive with Remus after him, whoever he ran to for help might have put down the wolf without a second thought. 4. Remus could have been expelled. 5. Remus could have been imprisoned. 6. Remus could, conceivably, have been executed. 7. Sirius could have been expelled. 8. Sirius could have gone to jail. 9. Dumbledore could have gotten in all kinds of trouble, possibly removed as Headmaster. And *that's* only if the whole thing remained more or less secret. If word got leaked about the specifics... 10. Slytherin could have gone on the warpath in a serious way against Gryffindor. 11. No great loss, but god only knows how the pureblood community would react to the news that a Black had arranged the injury/death/dismemberment/lycanthropization of a fellow Pureblood. 12. Hogwarts would likely have been gone over with a fine-toothed comb. How many other peoples' secrets would have been blown? I reiterate that I don't think Sirius actually intended for any of these things to happen, and that he was probably acting on impulse, for which I neither entirely condemn nor entirely excuse him. But I also wonder whether Sirius, having spent all those nights keeping Moony company as Padfoot, simply found it impossible to believe that his friend could really be as dangerous to humans as everyone said. Jo Ann ...who isn't quite sure which side she's arguing for here, though she tends to have a Snape bias, and wonders if JKR set Sirius and Snape up this way to intentionally muddy the waters for us. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon May 24 21:32:53 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:32:53 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mommy_can=92t_protect_you_forever?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99315 When LV used Harry's blood for his resurrection, he did it in order to have for himself the protection that Lily's sacrifice gave Harry. But did LV indeed get this protection? Well, he demonstrated that he can touch Harry without feeling pain. This proves that he indeed got the protection, doesn't it? No, it does not. There is a very simple alternative explanation to account for this: The protection wasn't working in the first place. It was not protecting even Harry anymore. I already commented here once that Hermione's observation, according to which "some of the greatest wizards don't have an ounce of logic", applies very well to Voldy (it must have been Quirrell, not him, who solved Snape's poison bottles puzzler). If Voldy had the logic of a scientist or a car mechanic, he would have done a simple test in the graveyard: touch Harry for one second BEFORE the resurrection, just to make sure it still hurts, then touch him again after the resurrection. Had Voldy done this simple test, I think he would have found that he can touch Harry without feeling pain even before the resurrection. Of course, he didn't bother to check it, but we have another proof, almost as good: Wormtail DID touch Harry. He was dragging him several feet and tying him to the gravestone. And he was not showing any pain at all. Well, you might say, Wormtail isn't Quirrell. He didn't drink unicorn blood and he wasn't sharing his body with Voldy. But still, Wormtail is quite a baddie by his own right. He betrayed Harry's parents to their death. He murdered 12 muggles. Only seconds before he had used an Unforgivable to kill an innocent boy, and now he is dragging Harry and binding him to what should be Harry's torture and death by LV, even though he owes Harry a life-debt. If the protection isn't doing anything to him, it doesn't take a security expert to realize that some wires are disconnected. Or, more likely, the batteries are expended. Voldy had bought himself a non-working system, and he doesn't even realize it. Is this why DD had that fleeting gleam of triumph in his eyes when he heard about it? The protection that Lily's ancient magic gave Harry was probably strongest immediately after Lily's sacrifice. It was then strong enough to stop an AK curse, something that was thought to be impossible. Ten years later, in SS/PS, it probably couldn't have stopped an AK anymore, but it was still strong enough to hurt Quirrelmort. A year later it was not, apparently, protecting Harry from the Basilisk's poison. By the time of GoF it had probably waned almost entirely, except only in the Dursleys where it is reinforced by Petunia's continuing decision to have Harry in her house. This makes not only scientific sense, but also magical sense: You're mother can't protect you forever. She protects you the most when you are a baby, and she still protects you a lot when you are 11, but after that, you increasingly have to take care of yourself. But if so, what about the power that Harry has in such quantities and Voldy knows not at all? The power that saved Harry from possession by Voldy? This is NOT the protection of Lily's sacrifice. This is the power that Harry has by his own right. This is the power that he earned when he let Wormtail live, or when he risked everything to take Cedric's body back to Hogwatrs, or when he went to save Sirius. It may have originated from Lily's sacrifice (as many good qualities in people originate from what they learned from their parents) but when you are fifteen, you are already a person by your own right. And what about Voldy? Well, it would be just fitting if he'll continue to walk around thinking he's bulletproof, and then someone score on him at the most critical moment. Neri From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 24 22:29:06 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 22:29:06 -0000 Subject: Things that could have gone wrong Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99316 Excellent and fair-minded post, Jo Ann, listing all the consequences of the so-called Prank. I've said it before and I'll say it again - It's time we stopped using that light-hearted name for a very dubious episode. It is NOT just a piece of boyish mischief and calling it a prank lessens the seriousness of what could have been a tragedy for so many people. Sylvia (sorry for sounding like a school-marm) From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Mon May 24 23:17:13 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 16:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040524231713.70839.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99317 Sylvia wrote: I simply can't believe some of the excuses the Sirius-lovers are coming up with to defend their darling. So Snape may have possibly recruited Regulus into the DE (evidence??). This makes Sirius cross and it is understandable (though not, of course, justifiable)that he should want to feed Severus to his werewolf friend. Oh, he did it just to scare him did he? How exactly was he going to prevent Snape being torn limb from limb? If he really didn't anticipate the consequences of what he was doing, then he WAS an idiot. If he did, he was prepared to let Snape die. Sylvia (who doesn't expect to make many friends) My reply: You know I don't want to condone or not condone his actions that night. But you ask me if I like Sirius? I do, and you know why? Because when I see Sirius in the books I see a person who sat in Azkaban thinking everyday of his life what he did wrong? I see a guy who sat there depressed and beaten down because he lost the only true family he had, James and Lily. I see a guy who I believe truly cared for his godson. You know you can say whatever you want about Sirius but if he's bad then my God Snape is. I don't care who you are or what you are you have no reason to treat a child like Snape does. None. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 24 23:56:34 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 23:56:34 -0000 Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99318 > Pippin wrote: > > > > What about when he showed his Dark Mark to Fudge? All this ambiguity about whether Snape or Sirius is worse is very clever work on JKR's part, since it distracts us from Lupin who was worse than either of them. There is no question that he thought what he was doing was wrong and he continued to do it.<< Ally: > EXCELLENT POINT PIPPIN!! I myself almost forgot how much I sometimes loathe this quality in Remus (I'd loathe Remus, but JKR has made that nearly impossible!), b/c I got caught up in the Snape/Sirius comparison. > You are absolutely right. Lupin's flaw is really the most reprehensible of all, isn't it? At least Sirius and Snape will pick a side - although they may make mistakes about it - and fight for it. Remus fully understood it there was no justification for doing terrible things to Snape. He allowed it because he was too weak and afraid to stop it. > That said, do you think JKR will do something significant with it in future books?<< Pippin: *Finally!!!!* Somebody gets it! ::blushes:: er, yes. If Lupin were tricked or blackmailed or jinxed into serving Lord Voldemort, how would he get out of it, given how weak and afraid he is? Would he tell the truth to Dumbledore? Or would he find an excuse not to tell...continue to serve the Dark Lord in secret, hoping against hope that Voldemort would overreach himself in the end. But the prophecy says there's a choice to be made--you can serve Harry or Voldemort, not both. Ever notice how much Lupin's boggart looks like a prophecy orb? Pippin who has been saying that Lupin is definitely dodgy since post 39362 From jferer at yahoo.com Mon May 24 23:59:26 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 23:59:26 -0000 Subject: book 7 my most hated ending In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99319 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > Before posting I would like to say I DO NOT believe this will happen, but I > just had a thought about this ending that is in my opinion overdone in > modern writing. I HATE IT! > > My worst fear is that Harry would die and then wake up back at the Dursley's > with all of this having been a dream and him looking to find himself back > under the stairs. > > Now THAT would be horrible! Woooeeey, Mama, that would be pretty bad - the "Dallas" ending. And JKR was worried some people had watched too much Star Wars? Actually, this was floated as a "theory" that Harry was/is in a psychotic abused child syndrome, and the entire wizard world is an escape fantasy. Jim Ferer, quivering in horror From LadySawall at aol.com Tue May 25 00:22:12 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:22:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4628 Message-ID: <1e9.2132b95d.2de3ebb4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99320 In a message dated 05/24/2004 3:55:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: Mandy here: I immediately though of the Tarot when I read the above posts. The four suits in Tarot are Swords, Cups, Wands, and Coins, and each suit is equated with one of the four elements, Air, Water, Fire and Earth. While thinking about symbolism and the four Hogwarts houses, this is what I came up with: The Sword of Gryffindor: Gryffindor as bravery is obviously the suit of Swords, as represented by the Sword of Godrick Gryffindor. Swords are equated with conflict. They point to decisive action and interaction, as well as mental activity. Very much Gryffindor to me. The element of air is the sword. The Wand of Slytherin: Slytherin as ambition has got to be the suit of Wands. Wands are all about Enterprise, Growth, Goals and Ambitions. The element of fire. You've got to have a fire burning in your soul to drive ambition. Drawing a wand out of the Sorting hat with Slytherin's name on it could be interesting. It could be seen as destructive, but also just the thing to achieve you goal with. The Coins of Ravenclaw: Ravenclaw is Coins. The suit of Coins represents the Material. Materialistic gain, but don't think necessarily about stereos and cars. Material gain also includes the need to know how why things are. The acquisition of knowledge, and achievement in understanding. The element of earth, the Coin. Very grounded and solid. The Cup of Hufflepuff: Hufflepuff, as the hard working kids who's focus is not on ambition, the material or bravery, are left with the matters of the heart and soul. The suit of Cups represents emotion and matters of the heart. The element of water. Jo Ann: That's really interesting...I also assigned Tarot correspondences to the Houses, but I made Slytherin (the house associated with ambitious purebloods and wealthy Old Money families) Pentacles/Earth. I also had Hufflepuff as Wands and Ravenclaw as Cups, but I can see why you made the choices you did... Hmm. Looking back over my own data, I see that I've got the associated characteristics as well as the compass points for those two Houses reversed; but if I swap them, then their colors will be backward. (Blue, Ravenclaw's color, is supposed to go with the Chalice/Water; and yellow--Hufflepuff's--with the Wand/Air. This is also one reason why I chose Earth for Slytherin, whose color is green.) I tend to associate the Sword with Fire, which I like especially for HP purposes because of the Phoenix symbology. Gryffindor's color, red, which symbolizes among other things courage and love, is also associated in some systems with the Sword. But then I've seen it all done many different ways. YMMV. :) [Ponders] Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nakedkali at yahoo.com Tue May 25 00:44:12 2004 From: nakedkali at yahoo.com (Sea Change) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 00:44:12 -0000 Subject: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99321 Geoff said: G> There are examples of people, famous for one reason or another, who G> have later managed to stay out of the public eye and live pretty G> normal lives. Meri followed: M> Fair point, Geoff, but remember, Harry's not just famous. He's a M> marked man, as he describes himself at the end of Order. [snip] Ravenclaw Bookworm then responded: [snip] B> Voldemort marked Harry; once Voldemort is gone/defeated/vanquished B> Harry won't be marked any more. [snip] ___________________________ Sea Change now adds to this particular mix: Geoff wrote an interesting response to this chain based on Elijah. I'm gonna do a response based on Salman Rushdie. Just as the Longbottoms were tortured by fanatical followers, after Voldemort is dead, Harry will be subject to fatwah by fierce believers. I don't believe the Lestranges are Lord Thingy's only nutsy followers. Most of us thought that things died down and things were safe for Rushdie, but the flames continually reignited for years. If one Voldemort dies, another purist ayatollah will take his place, and Harry will be both the obstacle and the opposition to him will be the symbol of unity. Sea Change, who wonders what Harry Potter's 'Satanic Verses' will read like From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue May 25 00:51:06 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 00:51:06 -0000 Subject: Who Hatched the Basilisk? In-Reply-To: <20040524132022.BFFM1551.out004.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99322 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Silverthorne wrote: > Potioncat: > > I wonder if there is any chance that the legend was just that? > Perhaps there was a chamber, but no monster. Tom Riddle found it and > hatched a basilisk in the chamber? There are chickens on the > grounds and lots of toads or is it frogs that's needed? > > > Silverthorne: > > ...edited... > > As for how to hatch one: > > A Rooster must lay the egg--during a certain phase of the moon, a > lot of legends say, .... It must be buried in a dung heap > It then must be tended by a toad (or some legends say a snake) until > the egg hatches. > > Silverthorne/Anne bboy_mn: While we don't have the exact details of how to create and grow a Basilisk in JKR's world, I think it's safe to say that it didn't grow to a length of 40 to 60 feet in just a few years. This seems to be an ancient long-lived creature, so my vote is for Slytherin to have indeed hatched it. Given my opinion, I will also agree there are reasons to be suspicious. If Slytherin himself hatched it, that would make the Basilisk 900 to 1,000 years old, and it seemed to be healthy and thriving when Harry killed it, so no apparent signs of old age. That would appear to imply that it had easily another 500 to 1,000 years of life left in it. That's quite a long life for a creature that is not immortal. Then there is the problem of food. There seemed to be a lot of rats, mice, and other small creatures to eat, combined with the fact that reptiles don't eat that much or that often. But in the course of 1,000 years and given it's enormous size, one must ponder just how much food it takes to satisfy a creature that big. Then there is the problem of Basilisk 'waste'; you would expect the Chamber to be knee deep in Basilisk Dung. To the original question of how and why Slytherin would have had and/or left a monster in the castle, I don't think he did. If the Basilisk was indeed hatched by Slytherin then despite it's obvious dangers, it probably would have only been a few feet long. One could also assume that Slythering could talk to it in Parsletongue and control it in much the same fashion that Tom Riddle did. It's clear Slytherin had an affinity for snakes, and what better snake for a powerful parsletongue than the king of all serpents, the Basilisk. Admittedly, it may not be wise to have such a dangerous creature, but on the other hand, where's the fun if there isn't a bit of danger involved? I also think we need to be careful about what we /assume/ about Slytherin. I think the Sorting Hat is our only reliable source of information, everything else is myth and legend. The Sorting Hat doesn't say that Slytherin was an evil racist. It says that he was a benevolent founder of the wizards school and a good friend to the other founders. Until they were divided over the issue of allowing muggle-borns into the school. The other founders wanted to admit any magical person, but Slytherin didn't trust muggle, and therefore, didn't trust muggle-borns, and given the extreme persecution of the day, that distrust was justified. Nearly all the negative aspects of Slytherin come from the mouths of people who are pushing their own agendas. Very much that way modern Islamic extremests have corrupted the story and teachings of Mohamed to their own ends. Various extremest Christians have also done the same thing through out history. Untill the end of the series, I'm putting very little weight into what most people are saying about Slytherin. bboy_mn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 01:22:12 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 01:22:12 -0000 Subject: Things that could have gone wrong In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again - > It's time we stopped using that light-hearted name for a very dubious > episode. It is NOT just a piece of boyish mischief and calling it a > prank lessens the seriousness of what could have been a tragedy for > so many people. > > Sylvia (sorry for sounding like a school-marm) "Prank" is called so in canon, so nope, I am not going to stop calling it so, untill I see more evidence to the contrary. Alla From msmerymac at yahoo.com Tue May 25 01:45:59 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 01:45:59 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99324 Alla: Do you > remember by the way, if PoA addresses how long he had been standing > there in the invisibility cloak. I thought PoA was fuzzy on the > subject, but no I am not so sure. > Hey Alla, I'll jump in and answer this, which is the point where we are supposed to believe Snape entered in on the conversation: [From "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs," page 352, American paperback] "If you're going to tell the story, get a move on, Remus," snarled Black, who was still watching Scabbers's every desperate move. "I've waited twelve years, I'm not going to wait much longer." "All right, but you'll need to help me, Sirius," said Lupin. "I only know how it began..." Lupin broke off. There had been a loud creak behind him. The bedroom door had opened of its own accord. All five of them stared at it. Then Lupin strode toward it and looked out into the landing. "No one there..." "This place is haunted!" said Ron. [snipped the rest of the chapter in which Lupin explains the shack is not haunted, as well as his werewolf transformations, the whomping willow, the animagi and the "prank" on Snape.] [same chapter, the very end, page 357, American paperback] "So that's why Snape doesn't like you," said Harry slowly, "because he thought you were in on the joke?" "That's right," sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin. Severus Snape was pulling off the invisibility cloak, his wand pointed directly at Lupin. Snape was then knocked out BEFORE Sirius and Lupin explained how Pettigrew must have faked his own death and forced him to transform back into a human. Hope that helps! ~Luckie, who finds it hard to believe the Shrieking Shack is the most haunted place in Britain, given all the Hogwarts ghosts. From msmerymac at yahoo.com Tue May 25 01:45:59 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 01:45:59 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99325 Alla: Do you > remember by the way, if PoA addresses how long he had been standing > there in the invisibility cloak. I thought PoA was fuzzy on the > subject, but no I am not so sure. > Hey Alla, I'll jump in and answer this, which is the point where we are supposed to believe Snape entered in on the conversation: [From "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs," page 352, American paperback] "If you're going to tell the story, get a move on, Remus," snarled Black, who was still watching Scabbers's every desperate move. "I've waited twelve years, I'm not going to wait much longer." "All right, but you'll need to help me, Sirius," said Lupin. "I only know how it began..." Lupin broke off. There had been a loud creak behind him. The bedroom door had opened of its own accord. All five of them stared at it. Then Lupin strode toward it and looked out into the landing. "No one there..." "This place is haunted!" said Ron. [snipped the rest of the chapter in which Lupin explains the shack is not haunted, as well as his werewolf transformations, the whomping willow, the animagi and the "prank" on Snape.] [same chapter, the very end, page 357, American paperback] "So that's why Snape doesn't like you," said Harry slowly, "because he thought you were in on the joke?" "That's right," sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin. Severus Snape was pulling off the invisibility cloak, his wand pointed directly at Lupin. Snape was then knocked out BEFORE Sirius and Lupin explained how Pettigrew must have faked his own death and forced him to transform back into a human. Hope that helps! ~Luckie, who finds it hard to believe the Shrieking Shack is the most haunted place in Britain, given all the Hogwarts ghosts. From dk59us at yahoo.com Tue May 25 02:18:28 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 02:18:28 -0000 Subject: Another 12 and 13... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99326 Eustace_Scrubb doltishly dashed off the following: > snip > > So his 13th trip to catch the train at King's Cross _will_ be on > his > > way to school. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Eustace_Scrubb Meri alerted corrected him: > Actually it will be his seventh trip to catch the train at King's > Cross. > Meri Eustace_Scrubb: Doh! Thanks for setting me straight on that...once upon a time I could count! So, I'll just pretend I know what I'm talking about and say that what I _meant_ to say was that it would be his 13th time to catch the Hogwarts Express...7 times at King's Cross, 6 at Hogsmeade. Cheers, Homer_Simpson, er, Eustace_Scrubb From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 02:20:00 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 02:20:00 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99327 In all fairness there's one thing that appears to be left out in the "Ruthlessness of Sirius and Sympathy for Snape scenario" which is; that no one twisted Snape's arm to go to the Shrieking Shack. It was Snape's own free will and choice to make that decision. Yes, he was enticed to go there but it was still Snape's animosity and suspicious behavior that would have caused his own demise. Snape followed the marauders in an attempt to find out what they were up to and possibly get them thrown out of Hogwarts for it. Sirius did take advantage of Snape's curiosity, but in the end if it were not for James Snape's "worst memory" would have defiantly changed. Sirius of course did bait Snape, of that there is no denial. To what extent each is to blame is another question: Sirius' guilt in showing or offering Snape the preverbal drug, or Snape's curiosity to use it. "It is our choices that show us what we really are Snow-who always likes to see both sides of the story and is still awaiting the other side Hurry Jo! From arielock at aol.com Tue May 25 02:20:47 2004 From: arielock at aol.com (arielock at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 22:20:47 EDT Subject: Slytherin in Sorting Hat Message-ID: <45.caeee1f.2de4077f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99328 "theadimail" asked: "We know that The Sorting Hat has elements of all the four founders of Hogwarts in it. If Godric Gryffindor's element was his sword which Harry pulled out, true to Gryffindor's essential quality which is supposed to be bravery, what could be the element of Salazar Slytherin that is hidden in it? Would this have to be pulled out to defeat Voldemort or at least tame him in one more battle? Even if its not used as a plot device I would even be interested in what each of the founders put in the Hat." Arianna replies: Isn't it obvious? It's the shield Voldemort is holding in the final fight at the ministry in OOP (top of p815 Am Ed). Maybe that is why he is the "heir" as opposed to simply the "last descendent." He somehow (magically) inherited the Slytherin's shield. Besides, it makes sense: racism stems from fear, the brave house has the sword, the self-preserving one has a shield. Arianna P.S. Maybe that is why Jo is disturbed when people consider Slytherin their spiritual home: because she decided the unifying aspect of the students in the house is not evil, but fear. From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue May 25 02:23:34 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:23:34 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: <20040524231713.70839.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001901c441ff$481c59e0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 99329 Miss Melanie: My reply: You know I don't want to condone or not condone his actions that night. But you ask me if I like Sirius? I do, and you know why? Because when I see Sirius in the books I see a person who sat in Azkaban thinking everyday of his life what he did wrong? I see a guy who sat there depressed and beaten down because he lost the only true family he had, James and Lily. I see a guy who I believe truly cared for his godson. You know you can say whatever you want about Sirius but if he's bad then my God Snape is. I don't care who you are or what you are you have no reason to treat a child like Snape does. None. ~Melanie Sherry now: I guess that's it in a nutshell for me. Sirius was still a teenager. He should have known better, but there are reasons for the fact that kids aren't allowed to perform certain jobs or operate certain kinds of equipment even at 16. They are still developing a sense of judgment. Which doesn't make the pensive scene any better or excuse it. But Snape is an adult, who is verbally and emotionally abusing students and getting away with it. I try very hard to view him with an open mind, since Dumbledore trusts him, but I still can't get around the fact that he treats Neville in particular with cruelty. There's no pretty way to express it. If I had a child who had a teacher who constantly humiliated him, I'd be pounding on doors and doing whatever I could to get that teacher removed. As someone else pointed out, Sirius was able to admit he had been wrong, but Snape has never admitted being wrong in his treatment of Neville or Harry or Hermione. He is constantly acting like a bullying teenager, not the adult teacher he is supposed to be. Just my two cents. sherry G From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Tue May 25 02:28:18 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 22:28:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink?/Remus is the worst Message-ID: <070EA6FB.326E04C9.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99330 Okay, I finally made it through all these posts! 1. Sirius and Severus are both completely immature. Both of them are stuck in the identity they were in school. Sirius was in Azkaban for 12 years, so what? He was out of school, fighting the dark wizards before that. Severus was picked on, so what? There are kids who were picked on in school who don't become what they hated the most. Who people defend (IMHO) is based on who they identify with more. I was (am, actually) the kid who got picked on by the cool kids, and everyone else just stood by and watched. I see myself in Severus. There's no way I can identify with the popular and handsome Sirius. The Sirius who has a group of close friends. I didn't even have very close friends until 8th grade. These debates get ugly because people identify so much with a character that they feel an attack on the character is an attack on themselves. I know when someone attacks Severus, I don't even think before I start typing a reply (most of which I manage to stop myself from sending *grin*). 2. I have to agree with Pippin on this. Remus is the worst of the lot. There is nothing worse than standing by and doing nothing when you know something is wrong. I know there's a line in Farenheit 451 about this, but I can't remember it. By standing by and letting things happen, a person is just as guilty as those who act. It wasn't just once that Remus stood by, it was time after time. 3. Lily leaving wasn't a good thing either. That was the easy choice. Just because someone doesn't want your help doesn't mean they don't need it. Did Harry *want* Severus to use the countercurse to save him? Did Severus *want* James to save him from Werewolf!Remus, thus making a life debt? Sometimes you have to help people -- even when they don't want it. If the Siriophiles defend Sirius, the Snapefans accuse them of making excuses. If the Snapefans defend Severus, the Siriophiles accuse them of making excuses. To me, it all goes back to #1. I won't talk about not making this personal, because I am guily of doing it myself when it comes to Severus. Oryomai From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 02:37:40 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 02:37:40 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: <001901c441ff$481c59e0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > Miss Melanie previously : > > My reply: You know I don't want to condone or not condone his actions that > night. But you ask me if I like Sirius? I do, and you know why? Because > when I see Sirius in the books I see a person who sat in Azkaban thinking > everyday of his life what he did wrong? I see a guy who sat there depressed > and beaten down because he lost the only true family he had, James and Lily. > > > I see a guy who I believe truly cared for his godson. You know you can say > whatever you want about Sirius but if he's bad then my God Snape is. I > don't care who you are or what you are you have no reason to treat a child > like Snape does. None. > > > > ~Melanie > > Sherry now: > > I guess that's it in a nutshell for me. Sirius was still a teenager. He > should have known better, but there are reasons for the fact that kids > aren't allowed to perform certain jobs or operate certain kinds of equipment > even at 16. They are still developing a sense of judgment. Which doesn't > make the pensive scene any better or excuse it. But Snape is an adult, who > is verbally and emotionally abusing students and getting away with it. I > try very hard to view him with an open mind, since Dumbledore trusts him, > but I still can't get around the fact that he treats Neville in particular > with cruelty. There's no pretty way to express it. If I had a child who > had a teacher who constantly humiliated him, I'd be pounding on doors and > doing whatever I could to get that teacher removed. As someone else pointed > out, Sirius was able to admit he had been wrong, but Snape has never > admitted being wrong in his treatment of Neville or Harry or Hermione. He > is constantly acting like a bullying teenager, not the adult teacher he is > supposed to be. Just my two cents. > > sherry G Oh, Sherry, absolutely. As I said many times to me emotionally Snape is still fifteen. Your reaction is the exactly same reaction I have when I think of Snape as a teacher. Going back to Snape and Sirius, if Harry was not in the equation, I would most definitely cared equally for both of those guys, but since I admitted many times to Harry being my favourite character (and Sirius and Snape coming number two and three), that definitely influences my other likes and dislikes in the books (although there are only a few characters in the potterverse which I dislike). Sirius and Severus are very very similar in many respects, that I have NO problem admitting whatsoever, but one of them loves Harry and the other ...well, not as far as we know yet. :o) I will say again it influences me. Alla From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue May 25 02:45:44 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:45:44 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink?/Remus is the worst In-Reply-To: <070EA6FB.326E04C9.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: <000101c44202$60df47f0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 99332 Okay, I finally made it through all these posts! 1. Sirius and Severus are both completely immature. Both of them are stuck in the identity they were in school. Sirius was in Azkaban for 12 years, so what? He was out of school, fighting the dark wizards before that. Severus was picked on, so what? There are kids who were picked on in school who don't become what they hated the most. Who people defend (IMHO) is based on who they identify with more. I was (am, actually) the kid who got picked on by the cool kids, and everyone else just stood by and watched. I see myself in Severus. There's no way I can identify with the popular and handsome Sirius. The Sirius who has a group of close friends. I didn't even have very close friends until 8th grade. These debates get ugly because people identify so much with a character that they feel an attack on the character is an attack on themselves. I know when someone attacks Severus, I don't even think before I start typing a reply (most of which I manage to stop myself from sending *grin*). Sherry says: Very good points! Fortunately, it is only a book and characters in a book. I am disabled and went to public schools all my life. Though I was not picked on, except in the early grades of elementary school, I was ignored by everyone. I did know other kids who were picked on mercilessly, and it was terrible to witness. I was painfully shy anyway, which didn't help matters. I was afraid of the other kids, and they were afraid of me. The thing is that as adults, we choose our behavior, even if we have patterns that were formed in our childhood. We don't have to give into those patterns. If there's one thing in these books I have really appreciated it is that the characters are an interesting mix of "good and bad" Snape must have some redeeming qualities, even though he is an abusive teacher. Sirius had some redeeming qualities, even though he was reckless and rash and cruel as a teenager. I admit I relate more to Sirius, but it has nothing to do with me having had cool friends or anything. It has all to do with the fact that he was Harry's godfather, and that Harry finally had the father figure he wanted. Whether Sirius would have been a good parental type in a world after the war, I don't know. I guess I see him through Harry's eyes. I hope to find something in the last two books to make me believe Snape doesn't mean to be a bully as a teacher. So, even though I am a Sirius fan, I try to keep an open mind about all the characters eventual outcome. I always want to be proved wrong, to find that the people I dislike really do have something good and honorable about them that I can admire or at least respect. I really don't think people take this personally, as much as they just enjoy the debate and interchange. Sherry G From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 02:48:23 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 02:48:23 -0000 Subject: Lily. Was: Prank revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99333 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee" wrote: > Renee wrote previously > >Of course, it would take a saint to ignore Snape's reaction > > > altogether; that Lily pays him back in kind shows she's no saint > or > > > angel but a normal human being. It's what she does next that I > find > > > so disappointing. > > > > >she leaves, practically begging James to continue his torment > > > of Snape. After all, how else is he to remain cool in the eyes > > > of the general public? > > > > Would James have turned Snape upside down again if Lily had > stayed, > > > without defending Snape verbally, yet showing she wasn't going > to > > > abandon her responsibility as a prefect? I don't think so. > > > > > Ally: > > > The question I want to ask - does it really matter? For whatever > > reasons she wanted to help. She interfered. Snape called her the > most > > degrating word possible in the WW as a gratitude. I perfectly > > understand why she walked away. > > > > Renee previously: > > Oh, I do understand why she walked away. I'm just not inclined to > excuse it. My problem - and maybe I didn't make myself clear in my > previous post - is that she's not just Lily Evans in this scene. > She's a prefect. If she really thinks what James does is wrong, it's > her duty as a prefect to put an end to his treatment of Snape. By > walking away, she pracically made sure James would go on. > > Lily may have been right to leave (though she'd already put Snape in > place verbally). My question is: was *Prefect Evans* right to leave? > Isn't this another instance of right vs. easy? > > Unless her reason for intervening was drawing James's attention, but > that would actually make it worse. It would mean she's merely using > Snape's predicament as a pretext. So yes, to me it does matter why > she did it. > > Renee I'll concede, if Lily as a prefect had an affirmative duty to intervene to prevent wrongdoing, the situation takes a slightly different turn. The question is then how much is required of prefects? Are they required to prevent every wrong they see on their way? Are they required to do more than they are capable of handling emotionally? Lily tried to intervene, she was degraded for that. Surely, in the ideal scenario, she would have still defended Snape, what if she was too annoyed to do that. Without doubt, she was probably supposed to notify the teacher, if she could not handle the situation herself. (After all, prefects only help teachers to maintain discipline, right?) We did not see what happened after she left. It is possible that she did call the teacher. Alla From nakedkali at yahoo.com Tue May 25 03:04:23 2004 From: nakedkali at yahoo.com (Sea Change) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 03:04:23 -0000 Subject: I know some UK-republicans (was: The permanent problem ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99334 Nora wrote: N> Most all who identify with Slytherin identify with the cunning and N> ambitious descriptions, which can be either good or bad--let's be N> fair and call them neutral. But Slytherin has another qualifier N> which **cannot be whitewashed out of existence**. [snip by Sea Change] N> -every single one I've read has ducked the issue of essentialism. [snip by Sea Change] N> Slytherin demands specific qualities AND the blood requirement. N> Slytherin House must cease to exist. :) ________________________ Sea Change, with a brush full of whitewash: I know some Unitedkingdomese republicans (little r, not like the American political party). For the Americans on this thread, I should point out that little 'r' republicans of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland have a main goal of eliminating the monarchy and making their country a republic. One particular Welshbeing I know was of the opinion that his royals were so delightful to us americans was because while we generally approved of *someone* observing this quaint and historical custom, we didn't have to live with them. I got sent a number of links to various BBCi articles, and indeed, there were plenty of Real Life Crabbes and Goyles for every one of your Lady Shirleys (a Malfoy indeed!). ***See! I'm on topic!*** I'm gonna gloss over the discussion of whether or not Slytherin can contain muggleborns or not, we've discussed this at length, and everyone agrees there's at least one canon instance (Tom himself) who isn't pureblood. A millenium ago, Slytherin definitely had to live in a world chock-full of these retarded nobles, which the Welshcreature had informed me about. If Slytherin values purebloodedness so much more than Cleverness and Ambition, given his fictional-life experiences of them, just how clever could he possibly have been? Given the Crabbes Goyles and other DEs dumb enough to succumb to Voldemort's does-everything-wrong-from-the-Evil-Overlord-Handbook blandishments, it can't *possibly* be a successful long-term strategy. Sea Change, who owns his Jungian Shadow of evil, compensates just fine for it in a civilized society, and doesn't mind if there's never an ETG!Slytherin From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue May 25 03:23:14 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 03:23:14 -0000 Subject: King's Cross (was Re: Assyria and Wizardly Geography) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99335 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says And the reason they don't share platform faces in reality may be because if they *did*, crazy people in pilgrimage from all over the world would be butting their heads against the walls during the height of the morning commute. There'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen in that, like when a phone number for a criminal in a TV show turns out to belong to a sweet old lady or a young couple with minor children. --JDR From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 03:29:02 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 03:29:02 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Meredith" wrote: > > Alla: > Do you > > remember by the way, if PoA addresses how long he had been > standing > > there in the invisibility cloak. I thought PoA was fuzzy on the > > subject, but no I am not so sure. > > > > Hey Alla, I'll jump in and answer this, which is the point where we > are supposed to believe Snape entered in on the conversation: > > [From "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs," page 352, American > paperback] > > "If you're going to tell the story, get a move on, Remus," snarled > Black, who was still watching Scabbers's every desperate move. "I've > waited twelve years, I'm not going to wait much longer." > > "All right, but you'll need to help me, Sirius," said Lupin. "I only > know how it began..." > > Lupin broke off. There had been a loud creak behind him. The bedroom > door had opened of its own accord. All five of them stared at it. > Then Lupin strode toward it and looked out into the landing. > > "No one there..." > > "This place is haunted!" said Ron. > > > [snipped the rest of the chapter in which Lupin explains the shack > is not haunted, as well as his werewolf transformations, the > whomping willow, the animagi and the "prank" on Snape.] > > [same chapter, the very end, page 357, American paperback] > > "So that's why Snape doesn't like you," said Harry slowly, "because > he thought you were in on the joke?" > > "That's right," sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin. > > Severus Snape was pulling off the invisibility cloak, his wand > pointed directly at Lupin. > > > Snape was then knocked out BEFORE Sirius and Lupin explained how > Pettigrew must have faked his own death and forced him to transform > back into a human. > > Hope that helps! > > ~Luckie, who finds it hard to believe the Shrieking Shack is the > most haunted place in Britain, given all the Hogwarts ghosts. Thanks, Luckie! So, canon clearly hints that Snape did not hear the whole story. So, I will give him the benefit of the doubt for now. May change my mind tomorrow though, we all know that Snape can move really quietly. Who knows maybe he ad been standing outside all that time? :o) Alla From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue May 25 03:52:46 2004 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 03:52:46 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99337 Nora: > The WW went into hiding way after the founding of Hogwarts, though, > remember. What evidence do you base this on? I don't remember exactly where the approximate dates for these two events are mentioned, but a quick check of the Lexicon shows both events (founding of Hogwarts and the Wizarding World's withdrawl from Muggles) to happen concurrently. Nora: > And what is objectionable in the language used (although > this could be wrong) is that it establishes a kind of hierarchy > within wizards--if your ancestry is purer, you're a better student > for me. Yes, and I never argued that this idea is a good one. You asked for an explanation other than "Slytherin was evil" to explain his pureblood bias, and I offered one. I wrote: > > Gryffindor wanted only those "with brave deeds to their name". Not > > brave young witches and wizards, or those with the potential for > > bravery, but those with brave deeds to their name. I think this > > means one of two things. One, the child has already proven his- > > or herself with a brave deed of some sort. Unlikey, before the > > age of eleven. Which leaves a second possiblity: a brave deed has > > already been committed by someone of the same name, i.e. an > > ancestor of the young witch or wizard. What's that? Gryffindor > > wanted to choose pupils on the basis of their ancestry? > > Inconceivable! And Nora contested: > See below. This is really trying to make the text say things more > than it does. Well, that's your opinion. I feel it is a perfectly valid interpretation of the text. If you want to argue it, offer me canon refuting the idea. Arguing these ideas is fun, but it becomes less so when your debating oponent falls back on "I don't agree; therefore it isn't so". Me: > > And then there's Ravenclaw, who wanted only those "whose > > intelligence is surest". Hmm, can I twist this one to be ancestry- > > related? Of course. Again, the line doesn't specify that the > > child be intelligent, but rather that intelligence is a strong > > possiblity, either now or in the future. Now what would one use > > to determine whether or not a child had the potential to excel? Nora: > I'm sorry, that's a tendentious reading. Well, of course it is. Why else would I have written "can I twist this one"? :) Nora: > Reading "those who" > as "those who are going to have kids who..." is, well...a little > specious. That's not really what I said. I was emphasizing the difference between "those whose intelligence is surest" and "those who are most intelligent". The latter directly connects intelligence to the student as an already-present trait, while the former is a bit more ambiguous. I was arguing that it could be interpreted to mean intelligence has not yet been seen in abundant quantity in the student, but other facts (e.g. family achievement) may point to potential. (of course, it may just be easier to rhyme "surest" than "intelligent", but where's the fun in that?) Nora: > Intelligence is notoriously unpredictable in transmission > down generations, as well. I don't really need to give examples. Yes, I'll concede that point. But children of overachievers are more likely to be overachievers themselves, due to environment, than children of those who place no value on education. Nora: > First of all, there's a major difference between the type of > discrimination that's going on with Ravenclaw/Gryffindor and > Slytherin. Bravery and cleverness can pop up in any part of the > population. Ancestry is determined at birth and cannot be altered. > That's NOT a distinction without a difference. Choosing students > for qualities they possess that anyone could have is different than > picking people based on who their daddy is. I strongly disagree. Both Gryffindor and Ravenclaw chose a single trait to decide whether or not a student should qualify to receive an education. Under Gryffindor's system, a brilliant, talented, but very shy and timid young wizard would be excluded, due to this single fault. Likewise, a diligent, loyal, hard working young wizard who happened to struggle when it came to tests and schoolwork would be denied a chance to learn under Ravenclaw's restrictions. How are these exclusions any more fair than exclusion based on ancestry? Not everyone can be above average in intelligence or bravery, even if they try their hardest. Can a student change these faults any more than one can change their parents? > But Slytherin House is an institutionalized bulwark of > this ideology. It's oh-so-easy for kids to go into it, and because > there are no Muggleborn students in it, to never have to reconsider > some of their ideas. The ideology of Slytherin House encodes these > values, and yes, I think they *are* distinguished in *kind* from > those of the other houses. (That last comment was a cheerful joke > as well, natch.) Do we have any direct evidence that there are no Muggleborns in Slytherin? I know it seems unlikely, but we know half-bloods have been allowed in. That's certainly against Slytherin's ideology; if the Sorting Hat decided to break the rules a little, why not a lot? > I think the House system should go. But I think Slytherin by its > foundational nature is pernicious in a way that the others aren't. I think the problem with Slytherin is more that it's a collection of extremely ambitious people. If offered an easy path to success, a chance to join the Old Boys Club of the Wizarding World, simply by embracing or pretending to embrace an ideology, most of these students would leap at the chance (not all, mind you, but most). I think if the House system were disbanded, and the overly ambitious dispersed among students who were not always trying to get ahead at any cost, then many of the evils of Slytherin House would be greatly reduced. One of my favorite quotes: "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Especially if said stupid people are offered a prime group of young students with an easy-to-exploit weakness. -Corinth From Batchevra at aol.com Tue May 25 04:17:57 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 00:17:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink?/R... Message-ID: <1e2.216e7f67.2de422f5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99338 In a message dated 5/24/04 10:30:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SnapesSlytherin at aol.com writes: >1. Sirius and Severus are both completely immature. Both of them are stuck in the identity they were in school. Sirius was in Azkaban for 12 years, so what? He was out of school, fighting the dark wizards before that. Severus was picked on, so what? There are kids who were picked on in school who don't become what they hated the most. Who people defend (IMHO) is based on who they identify with more. I was (am, actually) the kid who got picked on by the cool kids, and everyone else just stood by and watched. I see myself in Severus. There's no way I can identify with the popular and handsome Sirius. The Sirius who has a group of close friends. I didn't even have very close friends until 8th grade. These debates get ugly because people identify so much with a character that they feel an attack on the character is an attack on themselves. I know when someone attacks Severus, I don't even think before I start typing a reply (most of which I manage to stop myself from sending *grin*).< I was picked on in school by someone who then, years later, became one of my family through marriage. Had children, but I don't take my anger for that person out on the children, in fact, I will probably take them and treat them to the HP movie coming out. Snape is so immature that he can't see past his own anger. He takes it out on everyone except the Slytherins, his own house. So, before you think I don't like Snape, I enjoy reading his scenes and what his character is. I happen to think that Snape is on Dumbledore's side and will work against Voldemort, but he needs to grow up, and see Harry for who he is not who his father was. >2. I have to agree with Pippin on this. Remus is the worst of the lot. There is nothing worse than standing by and doing nothing when you know something is wrong. I know there's a line in Farenheit 451 about this, but I can't remember it. By standing by and letting things happen, a person is just as guilty as those who act. It wasn't just once that Remus stood by, it was time after time.< Why is it that everyone forgets that Remus had gone through years of being shunned by both children and adults because he is a werewolf. For the first time in his life, he has friends who when they found out what he became monthly, they didn't shun him, they were still friends and they learned a skill to keep him company. No matter that it was illegal and they could have chosen the easy way and said, well you'll stay alone we can't help you. Instead two pureblood wizard children, said ok we will keep you company as animals. When the Pensieve scene takes place, they have only been out eight times at most together, not long and he felt he was on shaky ground. Remus understands now that he made a big mistake, but then he was also fifteen. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 04:20:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 04:20:27 -0000 Subject: DoM and Nott, Sr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99339 Carol wrote: But as Potioncat and others noted, that leaves the motherless Theo without a parent. Anyone care to speculate on where he spent the summer? ... Maybe he and Draco will be forced to have a little time together ... It would be really interesting if Severus Snape were young Theo's temporary guardian. At least we could be pretty sure he wouldn't get out of line! bboy_mn responded: > When Carol says Theo is left 'without a parent', I hope she doesn't > mean that Nott Sr is dead, because that isn't how I read it. I think we could assume that Nott was capture, but I'm not sure that's actually stated in the book, so until the next books confirm or deny it, it can never be more than an assumption. It's possible that since Nott was off by himself when the Order appeared, he may have been able to escape. Carol again: No. Sorry to be unclear. As I indicated in another post, I'm not sure whether he's in St. Mungo's with the Baby-Headed Death Eater or in Azkaban with the "friends" who abandoned him under Malfoy's orders. Either way, Theo will need a temporary guardian. (Even if Nott and the other DEs escape, they're not likely to go home and resume their normal lives.) I don't think he got away given the apparent extent of his injuries and the fact that Theo was uncharacteristically in the company of Draco and his cronies in the brief glimpse we have of him near the end of Book 5. bboy_mn wrote: > While it would make for an interesting story for Theo Nott to spend > the summer with someone else, how would we learn that? How could we > gain that knowledge given that the story is from Harry's point of > view? True it could be stated in conversation, but that wouldn't give us much insight. Don't see how it could advance the plot unless Harry can somehow be involved. Carol responds: We could have HRH overhear a conversation between Draco and Theo on the Hogwarts Express. Or we could see Snape suddenly paying attention to Theo. (I think he'll be keeping a close eye on him whether Harry knows it or not, but as you say, how will we know unless Harry finds out?) Whatever the case may be, I think Theo will be important either in Book 6 or Book 7. He's being eased into our view in much the same way that "young Sirius Black" was in Book 1. bboy_mn wrote: I would love to read the unpublished conversation between Theo and Draco (referenced on JKR's website). Partly, of course, for the insight into Theo, but for me, more so for the insight into Draco. Draco struts around Hogwarts like a mini-Voldie, and I think in my personal expansion of Draco, in his own mind, he sees himself as king of the Slytherins; the best of the best. And it's very easly to re-enforce the illusion of your own superiority when you surround youself by toadies and idiots. But it would be very interesting to see Draco in a conversation with someone who is his equal or superior in heritage and intellect, and more so, with someone who is not the least bit impressed or intimidated by Draco. Carol again: I agree completely except that I'm more interested in Theo than Draco. I like intelligent, mysterious Slytherins (like Snape) better than arrogant little bullies who snidely insult everyone but are too cowardly to enter the Forbidden Forest without the dubious protection of Fang. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 04:54:43 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 04:54:43 -0000 Subject: Heir versus Descendant of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99340 Julie Wrote: Tom Riddle is the /Heir/ of Slytherin. Being an heir is more than being a descendant. An heir, by definition, is "one who inherits or is entitled to inherit another's property, title, etc." whereas a descendant is "an offspring of a certain anscestor, family, group" This is especially true in Tom's case. Otherwise, any descendant of Slytherin would have been able to open the Chamber, control the Basilisk, etc. What is it about Tom Marvolo Riddle that made him the HEIR, not just the descendant? Lady Macbeth replied: If his mother's maiden name was Slytherin, and she had no brothers, uncles or older sisters to inherit the estate, she would have been the rightful "heir". All of her stuff would have passed onto her husband upon her death; Then Julie responded: > But we're not talking about houses, etc. When Tom refers to himself > as the HEIR of Slytherin, he talks of carrying on Salazar Sytherin's > noble work. If that was something that was passed down generation > upon generation, then why didn't one of his ancestors open the > chamber? No, it had to be Tom, the heir. > > Could all descendants of Slytherin speak parseltongue? If not, why > not? How was it that Tom could? How did Tom find out how to open > the chamber while in school? My theory is that something (and I > don't know what) had to happen for Tom to be bequeathed of the > powers of Slytherin. Could this be where Grindelwalde comes in? > > I think we will find out more about how Tom was chosen, just as we > will find out how Harry was chosen. Carol: I agree that "heir of Slytherin" has nothing to do with property: Tom is Slytherin's *spiritual* heir--he shares not only his blood but his values. But he wasn't *chosen* except in the sense that only a person who could speak Parseltongue could unseal the Chamber, and since Parseltongue is such a rare gift, that person was almost certain to be a blood descendant of Slytherin. In other words, it was a genetic trait like Tonks's ability to, um, metamorph. As I've said in another post, I think that Tom (unlike Harry) asked questions about Grandpa Marvolo and his other ancestors and discovered that he was descended from Salazar Slytherin. Putting that together with the information that Salazar shared his own rare gift of being able to speak Parseltongue and whatever he may have overheard in the Slytherin common room about the Chamber of Secrets, he started doing research which evolved into a quest to find the chamber and carry on his famous ancestor's "great work." And to think that I originally envisioned the following very short post: "What makes Tom the heir of Slytherin is his ability to speak Parseltongue. That ability enables him to open the chamber and 'marks' him as the Heir of Slytherin." There. I did it. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 05:14:25 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 05:14:25 -0000 Subject: Caradoc Dearborn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99341 Mike Feemster wrote: > I reread this passage and something else occured to me. I have > wondered who had approached Pettigrew (Wormtail) to spy against the > order. I do not think that Pettegrew would decide to betray his > close friends on his own. Somebody must have approached him to put > the idea in my head. > > I have had three candidates, Snape, Lucius Malfoy, or the Dark Lord > himself. Depending on when this picture was taken Caradoc Dearborn > could have been the one who approached Pettigrew, or gave somebody > the idea that Pettigrew was susceptible to turning. > > Just a posibility or a red herring. Carol responds: IIRC, the photograph was taken just a few weeks before half the people in it, including the Potters, were killed. If Caradoc was a traitor, no one knew it yet, and he seems to have disappeared either just before or just after the Potters were killed, probably the former. I don't know whether that helps your theory or not. . . . Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 05:33:43 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 05:33:43 -0000 Subject: "Mudbloods" vs. halfbloods In-Reply-To: <45795.127.0.0.1.1085120803.squirrel@www.distantplace.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99342 Alina signed off with: Alina, who, for all her hatred for Voldemort, derives pleasure from the image of Malfoy serving the whims of a "mudblood." Carol: It took me a moment to understand your sign off here. I hope you'll forgive me for clearing up your apparent confusion by repeating an important distinction. Tom is a half-blood (Muggle father, witch mother), not a "mudblood" (two Muggle parents). He may taunt Harry, but he clearly respects him as a worthy rival, a fellow half-blood (in Harry's case, two Muggle grandparents and two magical grandparents). "Mudbloods," in contrast, are worthy in Tom's view only of being victims of the basilisk. So Lucius Malfoy is "serving the whims" of a half-blood, not a "mudblood"--and what's more, Lucius knows it, and so do all the DEs who were present at the graveyard scene. Even Bellatrix has been told (by Harry in the MoM), but she appears to be in denial. Carol, who wonders how many DEs secretly hold LV in contempt for having a Muggle father and resent him for tricking their pureblood selves into serving him From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 06:36:35 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 06:36:35 -0000 Subject: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or Both? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99343 Mandy wrote: > We don't know exactly when the Bellatrix, the Lestrages and Crouch > Jr. went after the Longbottoms, and it could have been immediately > after the events at Godrick's Hollow, or from a couple of hours to a > couple of days or even weeks. I think we are going to have to wait > for more canon on this one. Carol: Dumbledore says (in "The Pensieve" chapter in GoF) that it happened after everyone felt safe, which is why it created so much outrage in the WW. That, to me, suggests more than a few hours or a few days--more like several months at the least. Carol From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 25 06:44:11 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 06:44:11 -0000 Subject: book 7 my most hated ending In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99344 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" > wrote: Gina: > > My worst fear is that Harry would die and then wake up back at the > Dursley's > > with all of this having been a dream and him looking to find himself > back > > under the stairs. > > > > Now THAT would be horrible! Jim: > Woooeeey, Mama, that would be pretty bad - the "Dallas" ending. And > JKR was worried some people had watched too much Star Wars? > Actually, this was floated as a "theory" that Harry was/is in a > psychotic abused child syndrome, and the entire wizard world is an >escape fantasy. Geoff: This has cropped up on than one occasion in the past. I wrote as part of message 75634: "I shall await the arrival of books 6 & 7 with increasing impatienceto see how accurate the outcomes of our musings are. One hope is that it is not a dream in the manner of Dallas or I shall be joining the lynch party! My only wish would be that HP does not die. He is a great survivor already; may it remain so." and, as part of message 78617: "None of our favourite book characters are real; that's what "fiction" means! Frodo Baggins is not real. Jane Eyre is not real. Shylock is not real. They may be based in part on real people but they themselves are not intrinsically real. That does not mean that we cannot treat them as real, to share in their experiences, to cheer for them, cry for them and hope against hope that things will work out for them. To use the idea of a dream is a cop out. I remember how angry my wife got when the Dallas incident occurred. I have my own "wishes" as to how HP will work out. In the event, it won't end the way I have wished but, if it does finish in a dream resolution, I shall feel that I have been the subject of a confidence trick to lure me through seven books to a disappointing conclusion. And, as someone pointed out recently, it would be a possible disaster to the younger readers of the books - for whom Harry was firstintroduced - as it would undermine the power of their imaginationswhich are such a valuable part of their development." From lupinesque at yahoo.com Tue May 25 06:50:01 2004 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 06:50:01 -0000 Subject: Chapter 18: Dumbledore's Army Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99345 I'm sorry it's so late . . . Chapter 18 Dumbledore's Army Summary: Charms, always a good place to carry on conversations about the really important stuff, allows Harry, Ron and Hermione to discuss the attack on Hedwig and Sirius's near miss of the previous night. Ironically, they are learning Silencing Charms; Umbridge has her own ways of imposing silence. While they are inside between classes, Angelina informs them that Umbridge has reluctantly allowed the re-formation of the Gryffindor Quidditch team under pressure from McGonagall and, she suspects, Dumbledore. Hermione, troubled by Sirius's encouragement, expresses second thoughts about starting the DADA group, infuriating Ron because it was her idea in the first place and Harry because she's questioning Sirius's judgment. After Quidditch practice, Harry gets the worst flare-up in weeks in his scar and knows, without knowing how, that it's because Voldemort is in a rage over something not getting done fast enough. Questioned by Ron, he also now realizes that the feelings he was picking up on in earlier incidents were happiness (in Umbridge's office) and anger (at Grimmauld Place). They both realize that he is reading Voldemort's moods, and Ron presses him to tell Sirius and Dumbledore, but Harry says Sirius is impossible to contact and Dumbledore already knows. Studying late, Harry falls asleep in the common room and has his recurring dream. He is just reaching for the door at the passage's end when he is awoken by Dobby, who is returning a now- healed (yay!) Hedwig. It turns out that Dobby has been taking all of Hermione's offerings (a few for Winky) and that most of the house- elves are so insulted by all the hats and socks that they refuse to clean Gryffindor Tower. Harry asks him if he knows a place that the DADA group can practice without being caught by Umbridge, and Dobby tells him about the Room of Requirement. The next night is the first meeting. The Room of Requirement appears when Harry, Ron, and Hermione follow Dobby's instructions, and it is furnished exactly the way the group needs it to be. Harry is unanimously elected leader, the group names itself the Defense Association and then quickly adopts the name Dumbledore's Army instead, because, as Ginny says, it's the Ministry's worst fear. They practice Disarming, almost everyone is very enthusiastic about the whole project, and Harry gets in a couple of stomach-turningly exciting interactions with Cho. Bits of interesting information revealed in this chapter: -Apparently, it's generally required that students go outside at break. Did anyone else feel a touch of school memory at the line "They were allowed to remain inside over break due to the downpour outside"? Remember being required to spend recess outside? Even when it was below freezing and wet out? -The Quidditch locker rooms include a Captain's office. -We get to read a bit of a Potions textbook. Its style is a bit more 18th-century than A History of Magic. Questions to kick off discussion: 1. Proposition: Hermione, by fretting about the restlessness and recklessness that will in fact do Sirius in, is shaping up into an insufferable know-it-all and JKR had better bring her down a peg or two or we'll really hate her (Hermione, not JKR) before the series is over. Discuss. 2. Harry reads about a potion that creates confusion, recklessness and hotheadedness. Just when a reader might think "hmmm . . . Sirius," the text explicitly draws the connection, thereby undermining the red flag?but is that drawing of attention itself misdirection? Is Snape (or someone) actually giving Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts to Sirius, or to Harry himself? 3. Harry says Dark detectors can be fooled. What do you suppose he means? 4. So, what do you think about Harry as a teacher? And, given that he already has a beaut of a curse on him, should he go for the DADA job? 5. And one to take to OTChatter: If you found the Room of Requirement, what need would take you there and what would you find in the room? Amy Z - - - - - - - He had told the examiner in detail about the ugly man with a wart on his nose in his crystal ball, only to look up and realize he had been describing his examiner's reflection. --HP and the Order of the Phoenix From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 07:01:44 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 07:01:44 -0000 Subject: Rabastan Lestrange (Was:Re: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or both) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99346 karenoc1 wrote: Sirius was sent to Azkaban without a trial. > But later, the Ministry made great efforts to round up the rest of > the DE's and the trials began. First Karkaroff, then Ludo Bagman, > and then later still, the Lestranges, Barty Crouch, Jr. (and another > Death Eater, I just don't remember which one). Carol: Thanks for doing such a fine job on the chronology of the events relating to the Longbottom tragedy. Probably the reason you can't remember the other DE is that he's also sometimes included in the term "the Lestranges." He's Rodolphus Lestrange's brother, Rabastan. His name is not given in the trial scene, but Sirius reveals it to Harry in "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" chapter of OoP. He's also present in the battle of the DoM and is now presumably back in Azkaban with his brother and sister-in-law. I think that he was with the other two Lestranges near the end of the DoM (something happened to his original partner--maybe he was the Baby-headed Death Eater). I always see him as a follower, sort of a Peter Pettigrew type, who idolizes Bellatrix and possibly Rodolphus, or else a Crabbe type who latches onto them because he's too dumb to think for himself. He seems to me to fit into the pattern of paired, usually contrasting, brothers that we see so often in the HP books, but unfortunately we don't know much about him. But JKR has to have a reason for creating him and for having four rather than three people involved in the Crucioing of the Longbottoms. Anyone else have any theories or speculations about Rabastan? ESG!Rabastan, anybody? Carol, who is intrigued by the characters on the fringes of the story and hopes they're not just filler From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 07:11:38 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 07:11:38 -0000 Subject: saying Ginevra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99347 Ginger asked: Filking minds need to know: How do you pronounce Ginevra? Is it Gin-EV-ra or Gin-EEV-ra or GIN-ev-ra? > Siriusly Snapey Susan responded: > The times I've heard this name spoken aloud, it's been pronounced > GIN-ev-ra. Carol: That makes sense, since it's derived from Guinevere and a variant of Jennifer. (I was pronouncing it Gin-EEV-ra, but I stand corrected.) Carol From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Tue May 25 08:25:35 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 08:25:35 -0000 Subject: Unlikeable Hermione wasRe: Chapter 18: Dumbledore's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99348 Amy: Proposition: Hermione, by fretting about the restlessness and recklessness that will in fact do Sirius in, is shaping up into an insufferable know-it-all and JKR had better bring her down a peg or two or we'll really hate her (Hermione, not JKR) before the series is over. Discuss. I think so. By far, Hermione is least likeable in this novel. Come to think of it, even Ron is. When I first read it I thought, JKR was making an attempt to focus attention solely on Harry. In fact, Harry for the first time outshines the other two in the attention-grabbing quotient. Whereas the other two and the other characters as well, constantly manage to take the shine away from Harry in the previous novels, I find Harry and only him grabbing attention in this one. Well, Harry is also disenchanted with the world at large in this novel, so the other characters( Hermione, Ron, Sirius, Lupin) who all looked exciting before do not do so now, to him and because we see from his perspective, to us. It's like the pall of disappointment thrown over all the characters and we see them through these yellow- tinted spectales and they do not look pretty. One thing that really irritated me about Hermione in this book was how she gasps so much when anything untoward happens, and keeps closing her mouth with her hands. And also her beyond the reasonable affection for Kreacher. I hope these things change in the next book, because they irritate so much. Also there is an inevitable charm that each age has of its own. I mean the toddlers have this cuddly sweet charm while old ones have this forgetful irritating but endearing charm of their own. So as these characters are growing they are leaving their charm of tender years behind. But it's only Harry who is so manly and heroic and the other youngsters look, well, somewhat sheepish beside him whereas they all looked equal before. I suspect this will become the norm in the next two novels. Because Harry is destined for something very big he has to grow in stature to achieve that. And unless Hermione and Ron can share a significant responsibilty in that destiny, not just help him in the sidelines, they risk to be overshadowed by Harry. In Book One all the three had the adventure together, book two has Harry and Ron, book three Harry and Hermione, book four Harry doing it alone though both helped him out, book five has him alone most of the time, but for the first time, many others beyond the trio helping him. What can be the trend in the next two be? e Adi,who has written his first long mail here and deserves to be forgiven for elliptical style and unclear post. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue May 25 09:38:07 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:38:07 -0000 Subject: A DE ready to take over LV 's place after Godric's Hollow. In-Reply-To: <40795.143.250.2.101.1085422518.squirrel@www2.neonramp.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99349 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David Burgess" wrote: > > In fact, if Snape helped Lily put the charms together to protect Harry, > and told LV "Try not to hurt the girl, just kill the kid and move on" > without realizing how much damage the spell rebound was going to do, that > would explain why "Step aside, you silly girl" was there. If Snape was > acting in his own enlightened self-interest, he could have also told > Neville's parents how to protect the kid. This could also be a good > reason for altering their memories to the point of addling them. > Small snag. Dumbledore claims to have set up the charms to protect Harry (OoP chap.37). Another small snag; can you really see Voldy taking advice on how to deal with the various impedimentia that get in his way? I can't. The way I read it, it wasn't just about knocking off Harry (though that had priority). Voldy was in the business of terrorising the WW and Harry was a potentially troublesome item that there really was no rush to dispose of. After all, what danger does a 15 month old child present? Just so long as he was nailed before he could compete for the top slot anytime would do. James and Lily were examples - "pour encourager les autres" as much as anything else. What's the point of being Evil Mastermind if you don't take every opportunity to be evil? Might as well grow begonias instead. Besides, although Harry was given protection, I strongly suspect that nobody forsaw the spell back-firing to such an extent that Voldy would be vapourised. Kneasy From darkthirty at shaw.ca Tue May 25 09:40:36 2004 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (dan) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:40:36 -0000 Subject: book 7 my most hated ending In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99350 Geoff > To use the idea of a dream is a cop out.... as it would > undermine the power of their imaginations which are such a valuable > part of their development. This post is also addressed to others who have spoken on the subject in this thread and others. I realize every few months I really do need to post any developments of my theories, since it seem the gist of what I've posted in the past gets speedily reduced to the "wake up from a dream" idea, something I've never ever posited, by the way, but which seems a kind of default response. The idea is very simple, but it has nothing to do with waking up, or with the Witchwizard world being any "different" from what it is right now (which is to say, it isn't). It is, in essence, a kind of "meta" - yet no more so than many of the SHIPs or theories being posted every day here. (Yes, that means I see MAGIC DISHWASHER, for instance, as just as "meta.") The theory is that the Harry Potter books can be read as if they were the fantasies of someone still locked in a closet (mental, physical, spiritual, or such), and the progression in the series, whether alchemical or psychological or whatever, a kind of liberation. Each mental act encapulated by a school year gains this person some kind of internal freedom - represented as a bigger room, a bit more protection from the Dursleys, or alternatives to the Dursleys, and the like - a broadening vision of self, self-definition, even, in exactly the same way that adult readers of the series "participate" in the progression of the books. We can certainly say that we adult readers are choosing to make these books significant by participating in this list, for example, by posting on fanfiction net 4 or 5 times as many HP fictions than all other combined, by writing books and essays about the books. Is this related to the hyperbole-ridden silliness of the muggle world as the books represent it, and related to the more accurate reflection of our own real world, certainly politically, as the witchwizard world of the books? I think it is. But at the heart is the fact that, in the witchwizard world, people can say things and it is so, as they say, magically. What a boon to someone in a closet that would be! And who among us wouldn't like our intentions to actually bear fruit just because we say such and such with conviction? Reading Harry Potter as an adult is, in fact, pretty much a political gesture. There are two ways, however, to take this. One is to reiterate to ourselves how what we really really mean should be enough. The other is to acknowledge that it never is, and know that, after all, things like friendship, courage, heart etc. are what matters. Also, to respond to the last statement in your post, if the application of imagination arises from a real world situation, and Rowling's explication is about such a thing, how would that demean imagination? If there are things in the books directed toward young readers, like Arthur's rubber duck question, or the very silly fellytone joke, what do we adults make of them? We turn off the critical reader for those passages. But why? I guess it's just that there our (adult reader) responsibility to explore what resonates so about the series. Not that we owe an explanation for the midnight lineups, for this group or whatever, but that we owe it to ourselves to not avoid questioning why - as in everything else, when it comes down to significance. For me that means I have to question why feel it is significant to read these books. I have stated before that, in some ways, by reading the books I feel, strangely, as if I were participanting in Harry's liberation - and the liberation of whatever it is I identify with in him, for example. How is this so? Perhaps the anarchism, or "queerness" in the books is reflective of a very socially critical (and liberal) intelligence. dan From msmerymac at yahoo.com Tue May 25 09:41:44 2004 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:41:44 -0000 Subject: Unlikeable Hermione wasRe: Chapter 18: Dumbledore's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99351 > Amy: > Proposition: Hermione, by fretting about the restlessness and > recklessness that will in fact do Sirius in, is shaping up into an > insufferable know-it-all and JKR had better bring her down a peg or > two or we'll really hate her (Hermione, not JKR) before the series > is over. Discuss. > Adi: > I think so. By far, Hermione is least likeable in this novel. Come > to think of it, even Ron is. When I first read it I thought, JKR was > making an attempt to focus attention solely on Harry. In fact, Harry > for the first time outshines the other two in the attention- grabbing > quotient. Whereas the other two and the other characters as well, > constantly manage to take the shine away from Harry in the previous > novels, I find Harry and only him grabbing attention in this one. Luckie: Oh, how quickly we forget how truly annoying Hermione was in SS/PS - mostly as a cover, I believe, for her insecurities and lack of friends. But back to my point - how often have we known Hermione to be wrong? OK, significantly wrong? Everyone was wrong about Snape in SS/PS, but in CoS Hermione figured out the Basilisk and the pipes. In PoA she knew Lupin was a werewolf when no one else did. And she WAS correct that Sirius and Harry's rashness would lead to danger. Harry does have a helping-people-thing. If you were consistently right for 5 years and your two best friends simply rolled their eyes and ignored you advice, I don't think you'd become more timid in you suggestions. Adi again: But it's only Harry who is so manly and heroic and the > other youngsters look, well, somewhat sheepish beside him whereas > they all looked equal before. I suspect this will become the norm in > the next two novels. Because Harry is destined for something very big > he has to grow in stature to achieve that. And unless Hermione and > Ron can share a significant responsibilty in that destiny, not just > help him in the sidelines, they risk to be overshadowed by Harry. Luckie: But they've ALWAYS been overshadowed by Harry. Harry always has to do things alone. In SS/PS, he had to go on alone. In CoS, he had to leave Ron behind. In PoA, he produced the Patronus without Hermione. In GoF, he was utterly alone. In OotP he was basically alone when he was occupied by Voldy - fighting a mental as well as physical war with the Dark Lord. Harry is the boy who lived, Ron has always been the 6th weasley kid, and Hermione is a m*dblood with good grades. Yes, we've seen Ron's jealousy in GoF, but Hermione knows Harry can't help who he is and knows that being overshadowed come with the territory. Besides, she's the one who helps the boy-who-lived pass history of magic. Shippers should also have a field day with this. Is Hermione becoming "more annoying" because she is MORE worried about Harry than she has been, or *should* be? Hey, it appears that hormones have gotten the best of Harry, so why not PMSing!Hermione and hormoneridden!Ron as well? If anything annoyed me about Hermione in OotP and GoF (and that's a big if) it's her tendency to be a little more mother hen-like fussy, a la Molly Weasley, not know-it-all bossy. We've always known Hermione was a know-it-all, and she's been called on it before (by Snape, mostly). But her bravery and friendship far exceeds that. Besides, there are worse faults - actually, we know lots of people with worse faults, don't we? ~ Luckie, who's a devil's advocate, not a H/Hr shipper. From naama_gat at hotmail.com Tue May 25 09:46:55 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:46:55 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99352 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: > > Nora: > > > First of all, there's a major difference between the type of > > discrimination that's going on with Ravenclaw/Gryffindor and > > Slytherin. Bravery and cleverness can pop up in any part of the > > population. Ancestry is determined at birth and cannot be >>altered. That's NOT a distinction without a difference. Choosing >>students for qualities they possess that anyone could have is >>different than picking people based on who their daddy is. > > I strongly disagree. Both Gryffindor and Ravenclaw chose a single > trait to decide whether or not a student should qualify to receive >an education. Under Gryffindor's system, a brilliant, talented, but >very > shy and timid young wizard would be excluded, due to this single > fault. Likewise, a diligent, loyal, hard working young wizard who > happened to struggle when it came to tests and schoolwork would be > denied a chance to learn under Ravenclaw's restrictions. How are > these exclusions any more fair than exclusion based on ancestry? >Not everyone can be above average in intelligence or bravery, even >if they try their hardest. Can a student change these faults any >more than one can change their parents? > The classic liberal stance is that people should be judged on their *own merit.* In specific contexts, having more of a certain trait (say, intelligence in an academic context) makes you more valuable. Is it unfair to rank people at all? Maybe, but it's a lot fairer than ranking them on a scale that has no real connection to the specific field of endeavor. People who are more intelligent, *do better* in academia; people who have more courage, *do better* in the army (say). Darkness of skin, however, would be an arbitrary scale on which to rank people either in academia or in the army. So, to return to your argument, the point is not whether one can change a trait or not, but whether that trait is relevant to the specific field of endeavor. We don't really know whether brains or courage are more important to learning magic, but surely it's clear that ancestry is an arbitrary criterion in this context? This makes Slytherin discriminatory where Gryffindor and Ravenclaw are merely meritocratic. Definitely a very different order of "unfairness." Naama From spaebrun at yahoo.com Tue May 25 01:04:12 2004 From: spaebrun at yahoo.com (spaebrun) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 01:04:12 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Mommy_can=92t_protect_you_forever?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99353 Neri wrote: > Had Voldy done this simple test, I think he would have found that he > can touch Harry without feeling pain even before the resurrection. Of > course, he didn't bother to check it, but we have another proof, > almost as good: Wormtail DID touch Harry. He was dragging him several > feet and tying him to the gravestone. And he was not showing any pain > at all. Reed (me): Well, I always believed that the protection Lily gave Harry when dying for him protected him against the one person who threatened him at this moment: Voldemort. It will not ward off *everyone* who touches Harry with bad intentions. Quirrel was affected because, as you pointed out yourself, he shared a body with Voldemort, so the ancient magic was triggered by Voldemort's presence and destroyed the body he used at the moment (Quirrel's). Wormtail, however, was simply his own malvolent self. He was (most likely) not even present when Lily made her sacrifice and the magic does not extend to him. The fact that he owes a life debt to Harry has nothing do with this - I never read that a life debt has any burning side effects ;-) Reed From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Tue May 25 02:08:51 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 02:08:51 -0000 Subject: book 7 my most hated ending In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99354 Miller, Gina (JIS)wrote: > > My worst fear is that Harry would die and then wake up back at the Dursley's > with all of this having been a dream and him looking to find himself back > under the stairs. > > Now THAT would be horrible! > It would be quite possible for this to happen, however I do not think so because we have two chapters that happen outside of Harry's POV. All of the action in the first chapter in the first book lays down a lot of fundamental information that Harry could not know about. Also the first chapter in the fourth book talks a lot about Tom Riddle's family from his father's side. Harry would have no idea the history of Riddle House or Frank Bryce. Mike Feemster From astrudschuck at yahoo.com Tue May 25 06:38:40 2004 From: astrudschuck at yahoo.com (astrud schuck) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 23:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Mudbloods" vs. halfbloods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040525063840.32249.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99355 Carol ended with: Carol, who wonders how many DEs secretly hold LV in contempt for having a Muggle father and resent him for tricking their pureblood selves into serving him Astrud: The DEs may not hold any contempt for LV afterall. Their desire to wipe out every witch and wizard who isn't pureblood was seen possible through LV because he was very powerful even if he was halfblood. So they placed themselves under his service. From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue May 25 08:31:10 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 04:31:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99356 | --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: | > | > Is it my imagination, but wasn't the ghost who denied Nick from | riding in the Headless Hunt a Podmore? (just a random thought) | [Lara]| | Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore. Indeed. No one knows whether there is a | connection though. Knowing JKR, it's probably just a "coincidence". Hmm--I wonder...in that Nick said that only wizards come back as ghosts in OOTP. Therefore, the possibility/probability exists that Sir Podmore may be a Sturgis ancestor. Makes sense to me. Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From flitwicksman at yahoo.com Mon May 24 21:36:23 2004 From: flitwicksman at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:36:23 -0000 Subject: book 7 my most hated ending In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99357 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > Before posting I would like to say I DO NOT believe this will happen, but I > just had a thought about this ending that is in my opinion overdone in > modern writing. I HATE IT! > > My worst fear is that Harry would die and then wake up back at the Dursley's > with all of this having been a dream and him looking to find himself back > under the stairs. > Hopefully, Dumbledore will not wave his wand in front of Harry and have him say to himself; "there's no place like home. There's no place like home...". But then again, JKR has said that the last work in book 7 will be "scar". It would be even cheesier if he woke up from the dream and found the scar still on his forehead. But I think that JKR will give us a much better ending that that. Brian:-) From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Tue May 25 10:27:50 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:27:50 -0000 Subject: Progression of the books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99358 I am anxiously looking forward to the release of POA later this month and after seeing the trailer and how far it seems to have progressed since the previous two, found myself wondering about the maturity of the upcoming books. I am sure it has been discussed before that PS/SS and COS are of a different style than the rest of the series, primarily in that they cater to a younger audience and lack the subtelty and depth of the ones that follow. Each book has since become not only darker, but more mature, dealing with "grown up" issues. I know that JK has progressed as a writer, but is she intending the books to grow with her *original* fans. For example, when the first book came out someone who was 10 then and enjoyed PS/SS for the simplicity of it, would now appreciate the latest, deeper, volume. But what would be interesting to monitor would be if JK continues to write more mature topics, will she lose her younger audience? I personally cannot see an average 10 year old now enjoying much of GOF or OOTP, nevermind understanding its complexities. And when I was ten I wouldn't have wanted to wait until I was older to read the rest of the 'Famous Five' series, for example. Will these younger readers bypass Harry Potter for another author? How 'grown up' can she get before the books are too adult for children, and will she make Book 6 inaccessible for them? My goddaughter is 8, and after being thrilled by PS and COS has since stopped reading the series. She stopped halfway through GOF. Nevertheless I personally, as a big kid, would very much like to see book 6 continue to progress, it would be disastrous to dumb them down now. But I would feel sad to see fewer children engrossed in Harry Potter. Wonder away everyone... Josephine From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue May 25 11:11:36 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:11:36 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99359 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > > > > In all fairness there's one thing that appears to be left out in > the "Ruthlessness of Sirius and Sympathy for Snape scenario" which > is; that no one twisted Snape's arm to go to the Shrieking Shack. It > was Snape's own free will and choice to make that decision. Yes, he > was enticed to go there but it was still Snape's animosity and > suspicious behavior that would have caused his own demise. Snape > followed the marauders in an attempt to find out what they were up > to and possibly get them thrown out of Hogwarts for it. Sirius did > take advantage of Snape's curiosity, but in the end if it were not > for James Snape's "worst memory" would have defiantly changed. > I'd made a resolution not to get involved in another Snape/Sirius thread before the next blue moon, but of course I can resist everything except temptation. I first posted last year that DD and Snape were the best double act in the WW. DD knows what Snape's doing, knows how he treats the kids and is fully aware of his antipathy towards James, Sirius and to a lesser extent Lupin. Another little chore that DD has dumped on Snape's plate is to "keep an eye on young Potter. Make sure nothing disasterous happens to him." The number of times in the books when Harry is up to something and Snape just happens to be wandering about in the vicinity beggars belief. Harry has a watch-dog cum guardian at Hogwarts and his name is Snape. It's a chore; it's frustrating; it's boring. But Snape does it. And to do = it he doesn't have to like Harry and Harry doesn't have to like him. In fact it adds verisimilitude if Harry thinks that Snape is out to get him. It's quite possible that Snape would find this amusing, he's that sort of person. But as DD's leg-man he's the one that does the running about after Harry. That's the primary reason why he went to the Shack - because Harry was there with some very odd and potentially dangerous people. Snape is not nice, So what? But he is fun. I took this into account when coining the two labels - Siriophiles for The Sirius Black Adoration and All= - Purpose Fan Club and Snape-aholics for those that want to see Sevvy on every page. Snape-aholics don't neccessarily like Snape's character, but they do savour it. It's something sharp and astringent to counter the slightly sickly-sweet fakery and hypocrisy of Sirius. Snape is what he is; he offers no excuses. Sirius pretends to be something he isn't. He's different things to different people. If he hadn't spent years in Azkaban I could see him being very like Bagman; and that says it all. Other posters have highlighted Sirius's hypocrisy in this thread but no-one has mentioned that in the Shack, before Lupin arrives, Sirius has a fair go at strangling Harry - more than just holding him off: "The fingers tightened, Harry choked, his glasses askew. Then he saw Hermione's foot swing out of nowhere. Black let go of Harry with a grunt of pain." Yes, Sirius obviously cares for Harry very deeply. He just has a funny way of showing it sometimes. Conversely, Harry's care is one of Snape's functions - and he's not interested in showing it. He *enjoys* baiting Harry and his little group of supporters. It's probably the best in-door sport Snape has indulged in for years. Sirius desperately wants to be loved; Snape doesn't give a toss, just so long as Harry follows the instructions of wizards who know what they're doing and what they're hoping to achieve. Snape and Sirius know each other of old. To Sirius Snape is the nasty, sneaky Snivellus to be obstructed on principle. To Snape Sirius is the cowardly would-be murderer who'll hex a disarmed person. Right or wrong has little to do with it anymore. Harry of course, hasn't a clue what's really going on. Kneasy From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Tue May 25 11:15:10 2004 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 04:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book 7 my most hated ending In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040525111510.152.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99360 I just wanted to say that I was about to post about my most hated ending and Brian you hit it on the head. I think it would be such a let down if that happened - however I can't imagine JKR doing that to all of her fans! Beckah Brian wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > Before posting I would like to say I DO NOT believe this will happen, but I > just had a thought about this ending that is in my opinion overdone in > modern writing. I HATE IT! > > My worst fear is that Harry would die and then wake up back at the Dursley's > with all of this having been a dream and him looking to find himself back > under the stairs. > Hopefully, Dumbledore will not wave his wand in front of Harry and have him say to himself; "there's no place like home. There's no place like home...". But then again, JKR has said that the last work in book 7 will be "scar". It would be even cheesier if he woke up from the dream and found the scar still on his forehead. But I think that JKR will give us a much better ending that that. Brian:-) ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 25 11:25:39 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:25:39 -0000 Subject: Things that could have gone wrong Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99361 Where exactly is the world "prank" used in canon.? I was under the impression that it was a fan word that has gradually crept in. Apologies if I am wrong. Sylvia (quite prepared to admit I may be - I often am) From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Tue May 25 12:07:21 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 7:07:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? Message-ID: <20040525120721.RNQW28276.out007.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99362 I would still like to see the quote from the books where *Sirius* admits he was wrong in the whole Shack incident, guys. I know Lupin did (in the same conversation that he was explaining the animosity, poorly, between the Mauraders and Snape), But I never saw Sirius himself anywhere in the books admit that he was wrong--either about the prank or anything else in regards to Snape. About being hotheaded and acting without thinking in the past yes--but that was to keep Harry from going out and doing anything hotheaded himself--no specifics in regards to very specific situations--no "I should have never lead another student to a werewolf', no 'I should never have treated Kreacher that way', none of that. *Lupin* has specified situations in his apologetic speeches, but for all we (or at least I) know, with as general and non-commital as Sirius's 'admit to guilt' is, he just may have been parroting words fed to him by Dumbledore, and most likely *only* to keep Harry out of trouble. And for the record, I don't have the 'we were such berks' qoute in my own Amercian copy... Which means, likely, that without concern for Harry, Sirius would very much *not* think he had done anything wrong. Harry is a justification for him to express his 'remorse'--not quite the same thing as coming to the bright idea, all on your own, that maybe, just maybe, the things you did were bone-headed and flat out wrong--no matter *Who* they were directed at. I quite honestly think Sirius's change of heart was due more to the realization, most likely *presented to him* by DD and/or Lupin, that his own actions are an example--and important example--to Harry--and would have never occured to him on his own. Why? Because he fell right back into old patterns wtih Kreacher, with Snape, with going to the MoM. I have to admire him for his loyalty, his love, his bravery. But he still needed to work on a bunch of things, just as Snape needs to work on a bunch of things. And he needed to get a lot more brutally honest with himself. Yes, Yes, I know, so does Snape. But you know what? Unlike Sirius, whose family problems, from what we can tell, stemmed more from him simply not fitting in (we don't see or hear about any scenes with Sirius being witness/possibly victim to abuse, being alone in dark rooms for hours shooting flies off the walls...getting picked on by the popular school bullies), Snape *was* a victim of abuse. Those of you who claim to be familair with the abuse pattern should remember, that without help, and with factors in the environemnt adding to the problem--the abusee turns into the abuser. If any of you actually worked with the abuser who was trying to reform(and not just the victims), then you know just how hard it is to break those patterns, even for those totally sincere and wanting to do it *right now*. Snape is verbally harsh, yes. He has yet to take out his anmger in a physical way on another being that we know of (sorry, but DE years I am not counting here--I'm talking about the present, not what *may* have happened in the past--and if you really want to count those and assume he was the worst in the lot in regards to hurting other people--then the man really DOES have a lot of control now to keep from continuing that trend at Hogwarts). Physcial abuse is easy to point out--it leaves very visible marks. Mental abuse is very *hard* to track down--and nowadays, a lot of people consider looking sideways at your kid mental abuse. A lot of 'metal abuse' is also in the eyes of the beholder--and the concept gets ovcerused as an excuse, as false charges, and so forth. Most of you think that he is abusive and damaging--me, having a mother who did things that I wont lsit here, including mental games (which she still tries when I bother to talk to her), see Snape as little more than an annoyance.--and would have even as a child. Then again, I know he would have very little control over my life beyond his classroom, so perhaps that made it easier for me to blow people like him off. Snape is harsh. Yes. NO question there. But he is no harsher then many military trainers. He is no harsher than a lot of atheltic trainers, if you want to chuck the first comparison because of age. He is no harsher than a great many 'traditional' music and dance teachers. Point is--the damage he does to Harry, at least, is minimal. Other then making sure the kids hate his guts, his actions and words have very little effect on Potter (And its obvious that it doesn't--after all, we ride herd in Harry's head for most of the series. That little brain seems to be working just fine). The damage he does to Neville is as bad as it is because Neville's own family neglected his coping skills--Neville was *already* a quivering mass before he got to the school. Snape didn't bring him up to doubt himself--that was Gran's damage. Someone like Snape *will* reduce a kid like that to tears everytime. I'm not saying that it's right--but I am saying that for all the howling going on about "Snape and the poor kids", Snape is largely ineffective in regards to all but one of them--and that one really needs to have his Grandmother spoken to. This S**** starts at home. Now back to Snape and Sirius--which is really what the discussion was about originally. Both sides--listen close. They are *both* wrong. And they are *both* right. Sirius has a whole bunch of character traits that are glossed over because, well, quite frankly, he looks out for Harry. Take Harry out of the equation, and Sirius is nothing more than a hot-headed, rebellious man who could have caused a very ugly accident because he let his own *hatred* and *prejudice* of another student rule his actions. And he still endulged that nature in his adult years when he turned those same ugly traits on another being. Justification? "Oh, this person/creature is just plain evil and nasty--they don't deserve more regards than it takes for me to be totally unpleasant". And so it goes. Thats what it is, in a nutshell--whether it's Severus or Kreacher, he has no respect and no kindness. And at least in the first case, we *know* Severus had a crappy childhood that helped to make him what he is now. It still stuns me that as a race, we can have all the compassion in the world for a being that matches our ideology to a 'T', no matter what horrid things they do--and then when someone who 'isn't like us' does those same things, all understanding and willingness to understand goes right out the window. They aren't us, so we have a right, somehow, to think them 'less'--even when they are trying, no matter how feeble, to 'do it our way'. That's why I defend Snape--I know he's a bastard, I know that I would be having words with a teacher that talked to my children in that way in the RL--but he is *trying*. He sucks at it, but he is trying (and yes, I count leaving the DE, working for Dumbledore, and risking your life to betray former friends 'trying'. I even count the very few times that he complimented or at least listened to Harry as well. You have to change in order to do all that--and it is a lot, especially for a man who appearently spent most of his life not giving one wit about anything but himself, since that was all he had). Snape is still unpleasant despite that. I wouldn't want to have tea with him--not unless he really was as polite to adults as his actions to Minerva amd DD indicate. Even then, I'd likely be uncomfortable knowing how he *could* be towards others. I sure as hell would not want indulge any fangirl fantasies and date him--because I'd either drive him away with interfering with him when he was being a git, or I;d likely take a few chunks out of him myself *for* being a git. But really, after all is said and done, other then being a nasty grouchy git and not good with children (understanement of the year), Snape is not all that bad. Not to mention that he;s overhauled his life, and is now risking it--a hell of a chance for a mam who joined a group looking out only for themselves, killing everyone they didn't like, and being generally evil. Sirius....great, brave, child protecting man that he is....simply did change. He was what he was, and that did not change, from what we know of him in school until the moment that he fell through the veil--he was always arrogant, always treated 'lesser, evil beings' like shit, always did things impulsively and out of boredom. Azkaban did not do that to him--he was, and I will remind you again, always that way. And we still have to deal with the issue that quite frankly, they already have reputations that are preconcieved in the reader--Brave Gryffindor Sirius, who was always trying to do the right thing, even though he screwed it up, and Sneaky Slytherin Severus--and we all know about Slytherin, don't we? Especially greasy, nasty tempered Slytherin... Appearances guys. Remember the whole thing about appearances? Sounds rather like the issue brought up about the houses, doesn't it? Silverthorne/Anne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 25 12:41:55 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:41:55 -0000 Subject: Prank/Sirius' motives/Regulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99363 > > Ally: > > > > Well, I think the idea of Snape recruiting Regulus is a stretch. > > First, Snape and Sirius were 15, and there's no indication that > > teenagers are joining the DEs. Second, the Black family comes from > a > > long line of Slytherins of which apparently ONLY Sirius was a > misfit, > > not Regulus. Wouldn't it be more likely that their own cousin, > > Bellatrix, would have had a hand in recruiting Regulus? Or that > the > > whole family expected it? > > Potioncat: I'm not sure if this has come up or not, so I'll jump in. I think the original point was that Sirius may have disliked Snape because Snape recruited Regulus. However, Sirius did not know until after he escaped Azkaban that Snape had been a DE and at first he said he'd never even heard it suggested. That does not of course mean that Snape couldn't have had a hand in recruiting Regulus. After all, Snape was supposed to be in Bella's group. Just that Sirius would not have known about it. Potioncat From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue May 25 12:54:20 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:54:20 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Mommy_can=92t_protect_you_forever?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99364 Neri wrote: > Had Voldy done this simple test, I think he would have found that he > can touch Harry without feeling pain even before the resurrection. Of > course, he didn't bother to check it, but we have another proof, > almost as good: Wormtail DID touch Harry. He was dragging him several > feet and tying him to the gravestone. And he was not showing any pain > at all. Reed answered: Well, I always believed that the protection Lily gave Harry when dying for him protected him against the one person who threatened him at this moment: Voldemort. It will not ward off *everyone* who touches Harry with bad intentions. Quirrel was affected because, as you pointed out yourself, he shared a body with Voldemort, so the ancient magic was triggered by Voldemort's presence and destroyed the body he used at the moment (Quirrel's). Wormtail, however, was simply his own malvolent self. He was (most likely) not even present when Lily made her sacrifice and the magic does not extend to him. Neri again: According to your interpretation, Lily's protection is very Voldemort- specific. Suppose for a minute that Voldy in GH, after getting rid of Lily, would have suddenly become cautious, and instead of AKing baby Harry himself, he would have summoned Lucius on the dark mark line and order HIM to AK Harry. Do you say that Lucius could have nailed Harry with no damage to himself? Not a very smart protection. But suppose we buy your explanation for a moment, and Lily's ancient magic works only against Voldemort specifically. In GoF, Voldemort bought himself immunity against this protection. He proved it, remember? He touched Harry in the graveyard without feeling pain. So how come in OotP he fails to possess Harry because he "can't reside in a body so full of a power he despises"? Why didn't Lily's ancient magic work against Voldemort in the graveyard, but then does work against him in the MoM??? I see only one logical explanation: the power that saved Harry in the Mom was NOT Lily's ancient magic. In his end-of-the-year-talk in OotP, DD first talks about Lily's ancient magic, explaining how he used it to protect Harry in the Dursleys house. Note how he manages to avoid saying that the ancient magic had also protected Harry tonight in the MoM. In the last part of his talk he speaks about the power behind the locked door. He tells us that this is the power that sent Harry to save Sirius tonight. Why would Lily's ancient magic protection send Harry to save Sirius? DD also tells us specifically that this power had saved Harry from possession in the MoM. Note how he manages to avoid saying that this power is Love, or that this power is Lily's ancient magic. So why do we assume that the-power-behind-the-locked-door and Lily's ancient magic protection are one and the same? I'll tell you why. Because JKR is playing her little games with our minds. Again. Neri From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Tue May 25 13:03:10 2004 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:03:10 -0000 Subject: Lily. Was: Prank revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99365 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" >> > Renee previously: > > > > Oh, I do understand why she walked away. I'm just not inclined to > > excuse it. My problem - and maybe I didn't make myself clear in my > > previous post - is that she's not just Lily Evans in this scene. > > She's a prefect. If she really thinks what James does is wrong, > it's > > her duty as a prefect to put an end to his treatment of Snape. > Alla: > > I'll concede, if Lily as a prefect had an affirmative duty to > intervene to prevent wrongdoing, the situation takes a slightly > different turn. Renee: In message 99264 Pippin asked if Lily actually was a prefect in canon - a very good question. As I haven't been able to find any evidence for this, it could be I presumed too much here (probably read too many fanfics that make her a prefect...). And if Lily isn't a prefect, her only obligation in this scene is moral and she has the right to walk away after Snape's insult. Then why do I still don't like her in this scene? Maybe because Lily almost laughs when James turns Snape upside down, or maybe because she doesn't merely walk away but can't refrain from insulting Snape back first? Or maybe she'd also more or less been deified until this scene, and I'd expected more of her? Alla: > The question is then how much is required of prefects? Are they > required to prevent every wrong they see on their way? Are they > required to do more than they are capable of handling emotionally? > > > Without doubt, she was probably supposed to notify the teacher, if > she could not handle the situation herself. (After all, prefects > only help teachers to maintain discipline, right?) Theoretically, notifying a teacher would probably be the right thing to do in a situation like this. The announcement alone might have been enough. I do wonder, though, what effect this would have on the status of the prefect. Renee From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 25 13:28:32 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 08:28:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book 7 my most hated ending Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99366 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > Before posting I would like to say I DO NOT believe this will happen, but I > just had a thought about this ending that is in my opinion overdone in > modern writing. I HATE IT! > > My worst fear is that Harry would die and then wake up back at the Dursley's > with all of this having been a dream and him looking to find himself back > under the stairs. > > Now THAT would be horrible! Woooeeey, Mama, that would be pretty bad - the "Dallas" ending. And JKR was worried some people had watched too much Star Wars? Actually, this was floated as a "theory" that Harry was/is in a psychotic abused child syndrome, and the entire wizard world is an escape fantasy. Jim Ferer, quivering in horror Gina: Yikes! Maybe even a little too much like Pink Floyd's "The Wall" -lol. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 25 13:42:21 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:42:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99367 Snow15145 wrote: > > In all fairness there's one thing that appears to be left out in > > the "Ruthlessness of Sirius and Sympathy for Snape scenario" which > > is; that no one twisted Snape's arm to go to the Shrieking Shack. It > > was Snape's own free will and choice to make that decision. Yes, he > > was enticed to go there but it was still Snape's animosity and > > suspicious behavior that would have caused his own demise. snip Potioncat: Sirius knew Snape was curious and told him how to get into the passageway. So if Snape had been injured, it would not have been Sirius' fault? Sorry, I don't buy that. Snape had no reason to expect a deadly situation. I will say, that although we don't know what happened when DD found out about it, he does not now seem to take it as seriously as Snape does. Or if he did at the time, he must have considered actual damage (none) compared to possible damage if it was revealed. Kneasy: snip > Harry has a watch-dog cum guardian at Hogwarts and his name is Snape. > It's a chore; it's frustrating; it's boring. But Snape does it. And to do it he doesn't have to like Harry and Harry doesn't have to like him. snip > > Snape is not nice, So what? But he is fun. snip Snape-aholics don't neccessarily like Snape's character, > but they do savour it. snip Sirius desperately wants to be loved; Snape doesn't give > a toss, just so long as Harry follows the instructions of wizards who > know what they're doing and what they're hoping to achieve. > > Snape and Sirius know each other of old. To Sirius Snape is the nasty, > sneaky Snivellus to be obstructed on principle. To Snape Sirius > is the cowardly would-be murderer who'll hex a disarmed person. > Right or wrong has little to do with it anymore. > > Harry of course, hasn't a clue what's really going on. > Potioncat: Me too to Kneasy's post. (Articulate, aren't I?) I have to admit, Snape is a generally unpleasant fellow. Perhaps that is why he's easy to defend. He's a bad person performing good deads (with attitude.) While Serius is good person behaving badly. We expect more of the "good" person. IMO, Snape accomplishes far more than Serius does. And while I'm not really a fan of ESE! I do have my doubts as to Sirius' loyalty. Potioncat From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue May 25 13:45:37 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:45:37 -0000 Subject: Slytherin in Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <45.caeee1f.2de4077f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99368 > Arianna replies: > Isn't it obvious? It's the shield Voldemort is holding in the final fight at the ministry in OOP (top of p815 Am Ed). Maybe that is why he is the "heir" as opposed to simply the "last descendent." He somehow (magically) inherited the Slytherin's shield. Besides, it makes sense: racism stems from fear, the brave house has the sword, the self-preserving one has a shield. Mandy here: The Shield could very well be the symbol of Slytherin but I find your explanation of why it may be just too narrow. Both the sword and shield have a duality to them. They can be used for good and bad. Weapon and Defense. Conquest and the Stuggle for freedom. Used for oneself and for others. Neither are black or white. The sword has two purposes: one is to attack another, and one is to defend oneself and/or another. While bravery could be required to use a sword in the defense of oneself and/or other, so could cowardice and fear be a motivation in using the sword to protect oneself, or to force another into obeying your will. The shield can also be used selfishly or wisely for self- preservation, but also as protection from an attack for not only yourself but for others who may be without a means of defense too. Mandy From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Tue May 25 13:50:32 2004 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:50:32 -0000 Subject: Remus is the worst In-Reply-To: <070EA6FB.326E04C9.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: Oryomai: > 2. I have to agree with Pippin on this. Remus is the worst of the lot. There is nothing worse than standing by and doing nothing when you know something is wrong. I know there's a line in Farenheit 451 about this, but I can't remember it. By standing by and letting things happen, a person is just as guilty as those who act. It wasn't just once that Remus stood by, it was time after time. Renee: Sorry, but I fail to see why standing by and doing nothing is worse than actively harming someone without any direct provocation, as happens in the Pensieve scene. I don't see why Remus is worse than Peter, either. Fortunately, you put it differently the second time: Remus is just as guilty. He's not worse. Or at least, not in this scene. (PoA is a different matter.) It's not true either that Remus always remains inactive. He does stand up for Neville in the boggart scene. He intervenes in the Molly-Sirius conflict in the kitchen of Grimmauld Place. It's when he fears the disapproval of people whose appreciation he's after that he does nothing. Being considered less than human by the society you live in - and knowing that once a month this isn't unjustified! - won't have a positive effect on your behaviour. (Btw, I can think of situations where standing by and doing nothing is excusable. Do you jump between the gunman and his target when you've got a couple of small children at home who are dependent on you?) Renee From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue May 25 13:55:13 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:55:13 -0000 Subject: Rabastan Lestrange (Was:Re: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or both) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99370 > Carol: He's (Rastaban)also present in the battle of the DoM and is now presumably back in Azkaban with his brother and sister-in-law. Mandy here: Just a little point. I'm sure this was a typo as Carol is usually flawless with her information in her posts. Bellatirx hasn't gone back to Azkaban she was the only one to escape with LV at the end of OopT. So Rastaban is likley to be in Azkaban with just his brother for company this time. Cheers, Mandy From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 25 13:55:40 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:55:40 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99371 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > The classic liberal stance is that people should be judged on their *own merit.* In specific contexts, having more of a certain trait (say, intelligence in an academic context) makes you more valuable. Is it unfair to rank people at all? Maybe, but it's a lot fairer than ranking them on a scale that has no real connection to the specific field of endeavor. < Pippin: The wizarding world knows *now* that selective breeding of pureblood lines does not produce more powerful or trustworthy wizards. But Salazar Slytherin couldn't know this, nor could he know the results of the twentieth century's drastic and horrifying experiments with eugenics. It's already clear though, that pureblood endogamy is non-viable in the long run. The attempt will have to be abandoned or Slytherin House will disappear anyway. But IMO, it would be no worse to have a House that honors pureblood traditions than it would be to have a House that honors Muggleborns. What was and is pernicious is the idea that purebloods should rule the others. A belief in the rightness of pureblood hegemony, though it is now apparently a part of Slytherin culture, is not a selection criterion for Slytherin House. It wasn't part of Slytherin's philosophy when the Hat was created. The Hat says it was already in existence when strife developed among the founders and each sought to rule. Nor does it remark on Harry's politics when it considers where to put him. The identification of pureblood hegemony with Slytherin House is an accretion, which could, in principle, be scraped off without reporgamming the Hat or eliminating the House. Slytherin House could be restored rather than eliminated. Pippin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue May 25 14:06:18 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:06:18 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99372 Kneasy wrote: I'd made a resolution not to get involved in another Snape/Sirius thread before the next blue moon, but of course I can resist everything except temptation. I first posted last year that DD and Snape were the best double act in the WW. DD knows what Snape's doing, knows how he treats the kids and is fully aware of his antipathy towards James, Sirius and to a lesser extent Lupin. Another little chore that DD has dumped on Snape's plate is to "keep an eye on young Potter. Make sure nothing disasterous happens to him." The number of times in the books when Harry is up to something and Snape just happens to be wandering about in the vicinity beggars belief. Harry has a watch-dog cum guardian at Hogwarts and his name is Snape. It's a chore; it's frustrating; it's boring. But Snape does it. Neri (also yielding to the temptation): We don't have direct canon that DD gave Snape this mission. But we do have canon that DD gave Snape an extremely critical mission: teach Harry occlumency. And at this moment of truth, Snape let his emotions get the better of him. He stopped giving Harry lessons because Harry peeped and saw his 20 yrs old underwear. Snape knew exactly what was at stake here. Sirius knew it also. He said to Harry in Umbridge's fireplace (paraphrasing from memory) "listen to me Harry, the most important thing in the world right now is for you to learn occlumency". Sirius hated the fact that Snape was the one to teach Harry occlumency, but unlike Snape, Sirius usually doesn't let his emotions get the better of him. Not in the really critical moments. Not since he was 16. Kneasy wrote: Yes, Sirius obviously cares for Harry very deeply. He just has a funny way of showing it sometimes. Neri: Yeah, I know. Like rushing to save Harry's life (and the life of five other kids) in the DoM against a superior force of DEs. You won't catch "watch-dog" Snape doing such a funny thing. Neri From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue May 25 14:19:01 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:19:01 -0000 Subject: The permanent problem with Slytherin House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99373 Pippin wrote: The identification of pureblood hegemony with Slytherin House is an accretion, which could, in principle, be scraped off without reporgamming the Hat or eliminating the House. Slytherin House could be restored rather than eliminated. Neri asks: How? Can you elaborate? Neri (adding a line so it won't be a one-liner response) From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue May 25 14:28:15 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:28:15 -0000 Subject: Does ancestry play a part in magical ability? was: The permanent prob. with Slyt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99374 > Naama wrote: > So, to return to your argument, the point is not whether one can > change a trait or not, but whether that trait is relevant to the > specific field of endeavor. We don't really know whether brains or > courage are more important to learning magic, but surely it's clear > that ancestry is an arbitrary criterion in this context? This makes > Slytherin discriminatory where Gryffindor and Ravenclaw are merely > meritocratic. Definitely a very different order of "unfairness." Mandy here: The question is then; does ancestry play a part in the magical ability of children? It seems as if Jo wants us to think not, how else can Hermione be as magically powerful as she is, and Neville be a bad as he is. But are they the exception to the rule or the norm? Do the children of two Magical parents have an advantage? If they do then selection based on blood purity has validity and merit. They would by nature have greater potential to pass on to their offspring, and the rules of natural selection dictates that at least some pureblood must remain or the WW would eventually die out. What canon do we have to support either argument? Why does the WW contain mostly pureblood families if ancestry doesn't play a part? Cheers Mandy From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 14:42:08 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:42:08 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99375 Snow (me) previously: In all fairness there's one thing that appears to be left out in the "Ruthlessness of Sirius and Sympathy for Snape scenario" which is; that no one twisted Snape's arm to go to the Shrieking Shack. It was Snape's own free will and choice to make that decision. Yes, he was enticed to go there but it was still Snape's animosity and suspicious behavior that would have caused his own demise. Snape followed the marauders in an attempt to find out what they were up to and possibly get them thrown out of Hogwarts for it. Sirius did take advantage of Snape's curiosity, but in the end if it were not for James Snape's "worst memory" would have defiantly changed. >snip< Kneasy responded: I'd made a resolution not to get involved in another Snape/Sirius thread before the next blue moon, but of course I can resist everything except temptation. I first posted last year that DD and Snape were the best double act in the WW. DD knows what Snape's doing, knows how he treats the kids and is fully aware of his antipathy towards James, Sirius and to a lesser extent Lupin. >snip< Snow again: Kneasy,I would like to apologize for not making myself clear in the post you responded to. I was actually discussing the prank where Snape was enticed by Sirius to explore the Shrieking Shack while werewolf Lupin was there. I would also like to clear up any misunderstanding that I am trying to defend Sirius. I am not a Sirius-lover anymore than I am a Snape- hater. I like both characters and am suspicious of both characters equally. I do however tend to play devils advocate when I feel that one side is unjustly favored. (Of course this is in my point of view) I just can't understand why the one character's actions are seen to be more to blame than the others in this particular instance. The one character, Sirius, is to blame for luring someone into possible danger while the other, Snape, is to blame for allowing himself to be lured into a situation of "unknown" by a person he shouldn't trust. To me they appear to be equally at fault. Again, just my opinion. Snow-who always tries to understand both sides... From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue May 25 14:47:56 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:47:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99376 > Neri (also yielding to the temptation)wrote: > Sirius hated the fact that Snape was the one to teach > Harry occlumency, but unlike Snape, Sirius usually doesn't let his > emotions get the better of him. Not in the really critical moments. > Not since he was 16. Mandy here: I too, tried to be just an observer but.....have to disagree with your last statement. Sirius died because he let his emotions get the better of him. He laughed at Bellatrix and she killed him. I'd call that a critical moment. The Secret Keeper switch. Yet another critical moment. Sirius made the switch because 'he' thought it would be the best for everybody. It didn't matter that DD probably organized the whole plan. Sirius allowed his emotions for James overwhelm what he knew to be the most sensible plan of action in keeping the Potter safe. Cheers Mandy From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue May 25 15:00:16 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:00:16 -0000 Subject: Does ancestry play a part in magical ability? was: The permanent prob. with Slyt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99377 Mandy here: Do the children of two Magical parents have an advantage? If they do then selection based on blood purity has validity and merit. Neri: This idea is a common mistake, regardless of the moral issues. Even when you purposely breed in order to get some desired ability, inbreeding within a small population won't get you there. It makes the DNA from the mother and from the father become very similar to each other, which invariably cause recessive genes to raise their ugly heads, and you get a lot of defects. This is why crossbreeds are often stronger and healthier than both pure-blood parents. When people want to breed animals for ability, such as faster horses or cows with more milk (as opposed to show animals that are only supposed to conform to some "ideal" model) they are constantly bringing in new blood into the lineage, or they quickly arrive at a dead end. Neri From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue May 25 15:16:35 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:16:35 -0000 Subject: Remus is the worst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99378 Mandy here: Renee you make a very good point. Life is about choices, and it is easy to say `make a choice between what is easy and what is right', but sometimes the choice that has to made, is between bad and worse. How then, so you decide which is right and because neither choice will be easy? I have defended Peter Pettigrew on many occasion. He's a fascination to me because I see similarities between himself and myself at high school. Fortunately I grew up to be a relatively normal adult. Haven't killed anyone, although I've though about it at times. ;-) In thinking about Peter's defection, I have speculated that he was put in a position where he had to choose between his family and his friends. Of course this is pure speculation, but it does beg the question how do you choose between people you love? Sirius' answer was to die. He told Peter he should have died rather than sacrifice his friends, but that is easy coming from a man with no children, or family, only friends. Again, we don't know if Peter has any family at all either and perhaps he doesn't and Sirius was right. But I'm certain the DE and Voldemort used such techniques in converting people to their side. Threatening to kill children and family to force someone into committing heinous crimes. How do you choose between one child and another? How do you choose between the deaths of one or two people over the deaths of many? Is it easy to make that sacrifice for the greater good? Well, what if those two deaths are your children or parents, or brothers and sisters? I think Remus is constantly battling with the kind of conflict within himself. How could he stand up to James and Sirius in school when he knew they were the only friends he had and they knew his secret? He knew how vindictive they were, if he spoke out against them they could have destroyed his life with one sentence. "He's a werewolf." Remus now appears to be alone. Remus lives in fear, a very dark and sad place. And I have to say it would be, or was, as easy for Remus to fall to Voldemort as it was for Peter. Just some ramblings, Mandy From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 25 15:17:14 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:17:14 -0000 Subject: Does ancestry play a part in magical ability? was: The permanent prob. with Slyt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99379 Mandy wrote: > > Do the children of two Magical parents have an advantage? If they do > then selection based on blood purity has validity and merit. They > would by nature have greater potential to pass on to their offspring, > and the rules of natural selection dictates that at least some > pureblood must remain or the WW would eventually die out. > > What canon do we have to support either argument? Why does the WW > contain mostly pureblood families if ancestry doesn't play a part? Potioncat: Currently in the WW there is a group who believe Purebloods are better than Muggle-born...just because. Half-blood isn't quite as good as Pureblood, but at the point that all grandparents are Magic, you are considered Pureblood. This is convention, not genetics. And it is of course, my interpretation of canon. It goes with my opinion that Salazar Slytherin wanted only those students who were from magic families. And at that time, IIRC, not every magic child went to Hogwarts. (I'm not sure about every magic child now, but I don't know that canon speaks to that.) But whether or not he was correct, I think his intention was changed over the years. Potioncat From burgess at cynjut.net Tue May 25 15:31:13 2004 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:31:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Rules of Magic In-Reply-To: <1085478492.66290.85327.m15@yahoogroups.com> References: <1085478492.66290.85327.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <37016.143.250.2.101.1085499073.squirrel@www2.neonramp.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99380 In canon, we are introduced to many interesting 'rules' of magic. In fact, the framework seemed strangely familiar to me. I finally figured out why last night. My wife Tivos and watches an old TV show called "Bewitched." I usually ignore it, not being a huge fan of 40 year old situation comedy. Let me know if any of this sounds familiar: In the series, we meet Samantha, who marries a Muggle (mortal on the show) and proceeds to produce a pair of little wizards. She tells him on their wedding night and the zany antics run rampant from then. The Muggle is portrayed as a pig-headed bigot who pathelogically hates the Wizarding World and rails against it at every turn. In spite of the many ways that it could make his life easier, he can't see the advantage of having a wizard in the family. His mother-in-law was clearly in Slytherin (all the way down to the accent) and the father-in-law was from Beauxbaton. Every time something happens, the husband blames the WW for his inconveniences, and the in-laws spend the entire series trying to convince Samantha that she has married below her station and that her children suffer for it. The husband never refers to them as 'your lot', but the attitude and reactions are amazingly close to those of the Dursley's. In the show and in HP, the wizards can't "produce" anything, per se, they can only cause it to appear from somewhere else or can create a temporary facsimile. So, conjuring up an elephant requires an elephant from somewhere else to pop into being. Transfiguration of items happens all the time; from the elephant above being pink with blue spots, to a Wizard with 'fast hands' being transfigured against his will into the Loch Ness Monster. The WW has its own medical establishment, as well as a putative government. Several episodes involve the equivalent of the Winzengamot taking away someone's powers. In fact, many of the episodes involve the antics of a couple of witches that remind me of other HP characters. One character (Esmerelda) can't control much of her magic, and causes "funny stuff to 'appen" when she sneezes, not unlike a young pre-wizard we know. Another character (Aunt Clara) reminds me of many of young Neville's problems. Through mental defect (she's getting old, Neville's just been memory charmed one time too many) both have lost their ability to remember spells and can't perform completely well. In the show, the Wizards live an ethereal existence for much of their (effectively immortal) time. In HP, the Wizard World lives wedged into the muggle world through the use of alternative physical spaces (which could be considered ethereal). Of course, there are differences. In HP, the wand is used as the nexus of magical power. In the show, there are no wands; all magic is wandless and performed through the use of the waving of hands (or some other body part as the focus), the incantation of a spell, and sometimes the use of some kind of spell component. The spells on the show are rhymes (usually bad ones) instead of psuedo-Latin, although the 'turn this great fat rat yellow' spell was pretty close to a Bewitched spell. In addition, no one can 'undo' one of someone else's spells. In HP's Wizarding World, there doesn't seem to be a similar restriction. In the show, they pop into and out of the human timeline virtually at will. Many come to Earth to interact with the mortals, and it sometimes goes badly for them (the Salem witch trials are a good example). Just some fun observations on the confluence of magical lifestyles in popular culture. Dave From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue May 25 15:51:21 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:51:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > Kneasy,I would like to apologize for not making myself clear in the > post you responded to. I was actually discussing the prank where > Snape was enticed by Sirius to explore the Shrieking Shack while > werewolf Lupin was there. > Kneasy: No need to apologise, I was fully aware of your thrust, but as I said, temptation gets the better of me and I'm quite likely to launch into the wild blue yonder at the least excuse. Snow: > I would also like to clear up any misunderstanding that I am trying > to defend Sirius. I am not a Sirius-lover anymore than I am a Snape- > hater. I like both characters and am suspicious of both characters > equally. I do however tend to play devils advocate when I feel that > one side is unjustly favored. (Of course this is in my point of view) > I just can't understand why the one character's actions are seen to > be more to blame than the others in this particular instance. The > one character, Sirius, is to blame for luring someone into possible > danger while the other, Snape, is to blame for allowing himself to be > lured into a situation of "unknown" by a person he shouldn't trust. > To me they appear to be equally at fault. Again, just my opinion. Kneasy: Opinions are what this site is about. Always defend your opinions, otherwise you might as well plumb the depths of degradation and become a SHIPper. Is there a worse fate? Apportioning blame depends on your point of view. I don't care what stance a poster takes so long as they can defend it with intelligence and if possible humour. Nobody gets extra points for supporting the 'right' character, mostly because I suspect that 'right' is negotiable in the WW. There'll be more than one road to acceptance, you mark my words. Snape often gets blamed for being verbally unpleasant to whoever. Personally I don't understand this 'wrap kids in cotton-wool and never utter a harsh word to them' attitude. Beater to beat 'em round the head with a sock full of sand - at least that way they'd soon learn that life ain't fair and never will be. Coping with unfairness and disappointment is part of growing up; if they never experience it, how can they learn? Read a text-book? Not if you're Harry Potter - you'll learn the hard way and like it. JKR has already ruled on that one. > Snow-who always tries to understand both sides... Kneasy: A laudable aim; trouble is, you'd miss out on all the fun. The cut and thrust of debate, screams of outrage from offended supporters of this character or another, searching for more and better canon, subtle analyses and interpretations. Lovely! Remember, it's those in the middle of the road that end up getting stenciled down the highway on the tyres of some juggernaut. Besides, does it matter if you make a mistake and support the baddy? Not in the least. It's unlikely to appear on your CV, now is it? From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue May 25 15:59:58 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:59:58 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Mommy_can=92t_protect_you_forever?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99382 > Neri wrote: > > Had Voldy done this simple test, I think he would have found that he > > can touch Harry without feeling pain even before the resurrection. > Of > > course, he didn't bother to check it, but we have another proof, > > almost as good: Wormtail DID touch Harry. He was dragging him > several > > feet and tying him to the gravestone. And he was not showing any > pain > > at all. > > Reed answered: > > Well, I always believed that the protection Lily gave Harry when > dying for him protected him against the one person who threatened him > at this moment: Voldemort. It will not ward off *everyone* who > touches Harry with bad intentions. > > > > Neri again: > According to your interpretation, Lily's protection is very Voldemort- > specific. Suppose for a minute that Voldy in GH, after getting rid of > Lily, would have suddenly become cautious, and instead of AKing baby > Harry himself, he would have summoned Lucius on the dark mark line > and order HIM to AK Harry. Do you say that Lucius could have nailed > Harry with no damage to himself? > > Not a very smart protection. Annemehr: Actually, I quite agree with Reed. I don't know about how "smart" it is; it's just how the magic works: Lily died defending Harry against Voldemort, and Harry is protected from Voldemort's touch. Remember in PS/SS that Quirrell, with LV residing inside him, could not even withstand mere skin contact with Harry without getting blistering burns, not even when *Harry* touched *him.* Yet, Dudley has always been able to punch Harry with no ill effects (and wasn't it Piers who was normally the one to *hold* the victim's arms while Dudley beat him up?), and he did it for years before Harry ever met Quirrell. So, yes, I'm sure the skin contact protection applied only to Voldemort, and furthermore that it was triggered by contact alone and not just when Harry was being attacked. Neri: > But suppose we buy your explanation for a moment, and Lily's ancient > magic works only against Voldemort specifically. In GoF, Voldemort > bought himself immunity against this protection. He proved it, > remember? He touched Harry in the graveyard without feeling pain. So > how come in OotP he fails to possess Harry because he "can't reside > in a body so full of a power he despises"? Why didn't Lily's ancient > magic work against Voldemort in the graveyard, but then does work > against him in the MoM??? > > I see only one logical explanation: the power that saved Harry in the > Mom was NOT Lily's ancient magic. Annemehr: Here, I agree. The power that saved Harry in the MoM came from his own heart. I hadn't noticed that anyone thought it was part of Lily's protection before, but it had never even occured to me that Lily had anything to do with it. The power of Lily's love saved Harry in Godric's Hollow, but Harry has his own powers and goodness himself. Neri: > In his end-of-the-year-talk in OotP, DD first talks about Lily's > ancient magic, explaining how he used it to protect Harry in the > Dursleys house. Note how he manages to avoid saying that the ancient > magic had also protected Harry tonight in the MoM. In the last part > of his talk he speaks about the power behind the locked door. He > tells us that this is the power that sent Harry to save Sirius > tonight. Why would Lily's ancient magic protection send Harry to save > Sirius? DD also tells us specifically that this power had saved Harry > from possession in the MoM. Note how he manages to avoid saying that > this power is Love, or that this power is Lily's ancient magic. > > So why do we assume that the-power-behind-the-locked-door and Lily's > ancient magic protection are one and the same? > > I'll tell you why. Because JKR is playing her little games with our > minds. Again. > > Neri Annemehr: It might be useful to try and sort out all these protections, if only because I myself find them all confusing and tend to forget which applies where. Please tell me if I'm not making sense! 1)Lily's Sacrificial Death -1a)Caused AK rebound. Was it limited to that *one* AK, or was LV then generally unable to AK Harry, if only he could hold a wand? As for other wizards, I believe that they could still AK Harry if they tried. In any case, LV is quite unafraid to attempt AK on Harry since his reembodiment, and DD felt compelled to block the one aimed at Harry in the MoM with a statue. -1b)Touch Protection. IMO, LV, and LV alone, could no longer stand skin-to-skin contact with Harry; extended to those LV possesses. Overcome by LV by using Harry's blood in reembodiment potion. 2)Privet Drive Protection. DD used Lily's sacrificial death to arrange protection for Harry at the home of Lily's blood relative as long she takes him in and Harry can call it "home." Unclear to me exactly who this applies to and what the boundaries are. As DD sent Harry back there after LV's overcoming of 1), it's implied that it is still in effect independently of the sacrifice which made it possible, which is why I listed it separately as 2) rather than 1c). 3)Resistance to Possession by LV. As I said, IMO this is a power of Harry himself. Here, I will agree that Jo is playing games with us, though. DD is so cagey about explaining it to Harry, telling him Harry knows what that power is as if it's obvious, yet he takes pains not to name it. I assume that Harry's resistance to LV's possession is very important to how Harry will defeat him, which is probably why Jo doesn't want to define it too closely. Though we've toyed with various ideas on this list, I always come back to "love" being the most fitting explanation. The key to the whole thing may be the particular form or manifestation of love that will come into play, which she's still keeping secret. So -- Mommy can't protect you forever. I believe you are right. I think LV can AK as well as touch Harry, and I think it's a good bet the Privet Drive protection will fall, too (though I hope we get a better explanation of what exactly it *is,* as well). What Harry will always keep from Lily is the fact that she loved him that much. He'll have that, the support of his friends, and his own heart to help him in the end. Not to say there won't be other things involved as well (Neville, Harry's and Lily's eyes...), but that much at least. Annemehr who feels odd calling her "Jo," but a bit curmudgeonly typing "JKR" after she'd written "Jo, to you" so nicely... From mimi.barker at mindspring.com Tue May 25 14:01:16 2004 From: mimi.barker at mindspring.com (Mimi Barker) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:01:16 -0000 Subject: Life Debts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99383 In POA, we find out via Dumbledore talking to Harry, "When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them... This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable,..." This got me thinking about all the life debts that are in place around Harry. Wizards whose lives he has saved, and those who have saved his life. I wonder if some of these will come in to play in books six and seven. Of course, we know that Pettigrew's life debt will be a factor, but what about some of these others that have not been in focus as much? And what happens to a life debt when one of the wizards involved dies? It doesn't seem that James' death cancelled the life debt between himself and Snape, or is there something else behind Snape's protecting Harry in PS? Lives Harry has saved: Hermione: in PS with Ron's help Ginny: COS Peter Pettigrew: POA Sirius Black: POA, twice, once with Hermione's help... (I wonder if this deep magic will allow Harry and/or Hermione to have a connection with Sirius behind the veil?) Buckbeak: POA, but not human, so maybe the life debt doesn't apply Dudley: OoP, but Dudley isn't a wizard is he? Those who have saved Harry's life: Lily: her sacrifice saved Harry from Quirrell in PS, but was it also the main factor that saved him Voldemort in the beginning? Snape: in PS, does this repay Snape's life debt to James, or create a new bond with Harry? Can a life debt be repaid, or is it permanent? Dumbledore: PS Harry: POA, his future self saved his past self when he conjured his patronus What others have I forgotten? From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Tue May 25 11:50:32 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 07:50:32 -0400 Subject: Lily (wasPrank revisited.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99384 > Renee: > > IMO, Lily certainly isn't lily-white here. Sure, she defended the > victim against his bullies, but if someone is treated unjustly and > you intervene, lack of gratitude and even racial slurs should *not* > cause you to turn your back to them. What Snape says, doesn't make > James's and Sirius's treatment of him any more justified than it > was. Of course, it would take a saint to ignore Snape's reaction > altogether; that Lily pays him back in kind shows she's no saint or > angel but a normal human being. It's what she does next that I find > so disappointing. Snape may have been on the loosing side *this* time. He was probably caught off guard with tests, spring fever et al. He is not generally cast as a victim. Usually, he can take care of himself. We are told that he knew more about curses and counter-curses coming into Hogwarts than many older students knew (something to that effect.). And we probably know this that we know this because Snape used these curses against fellow students. We also saw how well he could handle himself in the dueling match in CoS. Snape is not a magical weakling. I also think that Lily knew that James wouldn't continue his behavior after being chastised by her. There was little need for her to stay around and take abuse from Snape, who didn't need or wish for much help from her. She broke up the incident and I think that all she needed to do to put a stop to it. I find little evidence to suggest that James and Sirius were true bullies like Dudley. True bullies like to show their power by seeking out weaker victims to attack. Dudley and his gang hang around the school yard just looking for weaker kids. Anyone will do. (Kind of how Snape manages his classroom.) With James and Snape the confrontation seems to be more personal and all the participants seem to be are more equal in power. I expect that there were a whole series of escalating incidents where the losers and winners rotated. Just like Harry's and Draco's confrontations have played out. My opinion anyway, Ivogun From LadySawall at aol.com Tue May 25 16:43:20 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:43:20 EDT Subject: Sirius Vs. Snape Message-ID: <104.475040f4.2de4d1a8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99385 In a message dated 05/25/2004 11:01:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Potioncat writes: Sirius knew Snape was curious and told him how to get into the passageway. So if Snape had been injured, it would not have been Sirius' fault? Sorry, I don't buy that. Snape had no reason to expect a deadly situation. You know, there's an interesting point. You could say that Snape was being gullible here, or you could say that he put enough faith in the doctrine of Gryffindor chivalry at the time to trust that Sirius would not intentionally put him in danger. He might have sneered at the do-gooder reputation, but he believed in it to some extent, in spite of all the nasty things the Marauders had done to him. Otherwise he would have just said "Oh, a secret tunnel under the Whomping Willow that leads to all the answers? Yeah, right, Black, pull the other one. You go first." Once again, I have to say, I don't blame him for not buying into Sirius' innocence later on. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 25 17:14:22 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:14:22 -0000 Subject: The Rowse system Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99386 The historian A.L. Rowse (who Carol will certainly know, because he detested Richard III) perfected a system for establishing his guesses as certainties. He would state on Page X "It has been suggested that the Dark Lady of the Sonnets was Emilia Lanier". Ten pages later, we get "There is a strong possibility that Emilia Lanier was the Dark Lady of the Sonnets". Thirty pages on, he would conclude triumphantly "We have established that Emilia Lanier was the Dark Lady of the Sonnets". I think we are all guilty of doing this a bit, with our pet theories. Fun, though... Sylvia (still waiting to learn whether the term "Prank" is canon or fan-speak) From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 25 17:27:43 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:27:43 -0000 Subject: The Rowse system Now prank/joke/trick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99387 > Sylvia (still waiting to learn whether the term "Prank" is canon or > fan-speak) Potioncat: In the US edition of PoA, it is referred to as a joke and a trick. Is it ever discussed anywhere else? From burgess at cynjut.net Tue May 25 17:35:15 2004 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:35:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Progression of the books In-Reply-To: <1085497242.5997.92339.m21@yahoogroups.com> References: <1085497242.5997.92339.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <32990.143.250.2.101.1085506515.squirrel@www2.neonramp.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99388 From: "Jospehine" > [...] >Nevertheless I personally, as a big kid, would very much like to see >book 6 continue to progress, it would be disastrous to dumb them down >now. But I would feel sad to see fewer children engrossed in Harry >Potter. When GoF was released, Steven King was in the throes of a tour promoting his most recent book. That Friday morning, he was on the Today Show. I don't have the quote, but basically the conversation went something like this: Katey Couric: "As you know, the most recent installment of the Harry Potter book series is being released this week-end. What do think about that?" Steven King: "I really like the books. If I had the chance, though, as a fellow writer, I'd ask her one question - 'When did you decide not to write children's books?'" This question crystalized the entire series for me and validated something that had been rolling around in my head since PoA. In my view, these books are a story about a child, but are clearly NOT a children's story. >From a pure mass perspective, GoF would have been impossible for most children to read. I mean, I started it when it came in at 2PM on Saturday, and finished it at 5PM on Sunday, and I read for a living - there's no way a 10 or 11 year old kid is going to sit down and read an 1100 page book in one sitting. I'm even daunted from starting it again, just because I don't have 27 hours to grind through it again. Now, I know a lot did and I understand how they did it, but if you are writing a children's book, you aren't going to do it 1100 pages at a time. My wife (the librarian) keeps telling me that "If you like Harry Potter, you'll love Limony Snickett" and I'm skeptical. The Snicket books are children's books about a child wizard. I can't agree that the same can be said about HP, especially the more recent books. Dave From LadySawall at aol.com Tue May 25 17:38:16 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:38:16 EDT Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? Message-ID: <141.2a8200fc.2de4de88@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99389 In a message dated 05/25/2004 5:48:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sherry writes: >There's no pretty way to express it. If I had a child who had a teacher who constantly humiliated him, I'd be pounding on doors and doing whatever I could to get that teacher removed. As someone else pointed out, Sirius was able to admit he had been wrong, but Snape has never admitted being wrong in his treatment of Neville or Harry or Hermione. He is constantly acting like a bullying teenager, not the adult teacher he is supposed to be. Just my two cents. The thing is, once again, we only get Harry's POV. Snape may say all sorts of things to DD in private, and possibly to some of the other teachers, that he would never say in front of Harry. You know, that's something I'd really like to see in one of the upcoming books. I'd like to get a few other teachers' POV. Obviously the faculty can't gossip about one another to the students, but I'd love for Harry to overhear McGonagall and Sprout or Flitwick griping at each other about Snape, or Snape having a conversation with one of them in the staff room. Harry sure spends enough time sneaking around under that cloak for it to happen. Picture it: McGonagall: [Making tea] "You know the Longbottom boy would probably melt fewer cauldrons if you weren't always making him so nervous." Snape: "I make *him* nervous?" [Downs half a bottle of antacid tablets] "His Philter of Puppy Control ate a ten-inch hole in the dungeon floor! I got a Howler from Percy Weasley this morning because the Ministry had to relax the cauldron-thickness standards to avoid a shortage!" Two, and I can't believe that neither Hermione nor Dumbledore has ever suggested it, I really wish Harry would make an attempt to just have a civil conversation with the man and *try* to bury the hatchet. (Or, well, it would probably take more than one attempt, but still...) And I don't mean a teary-eyed reconciliation either...I'd be happy if they could come to an uneasy truce. I think we can be fairly sure Snape isn't going to make the effort, but honestly, what's stopping Harry? I mean, what's the worst Snape could possibly do? Insult his dad again and take a few points for being too agreeable? Maybe throw another jar of cockroaches? Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 25 17:58:51 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:58:51 -0000 Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: <141.2a8200fc.2de4de88@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99390 Jo Ann wrote: > The thing is, once again, we only get Harry's POV. Snape may say all sorts > of things to DD in private, and possibly to some of the other teachers, that he > would never say in front of Harry. > > You know, that's something I'd really like to see in one of the upcoming > books. I'd like to get a few other teachers' POV. Obviously the faculty can't > gossip about one another to the students, but I'd love for Harry to overhear > McGonagall and Sprout or Flitwick griping at each other about Snape, or Snape > having a conversation with one of them in the staff room. snip ... I really wish Harry would make an attempt to just have a civil > conversation with the man and *try* to bury the hatchet. (Or, well, it would > probably take more than one attempt, but still...) And I don't mean a teary-eyed > reconciliation either...I'd be happy if they could come to an uneasy truce. I > think we can be fairly sure Snape isn't going to make the effort, but honestly, > what's stopping Harry? > > I mean, what's the worst Snape could possibly do? Insult his dad again and > take a few points for being too agreeable? Maybe throw another jar of > cockroaches? Potioncat: I'd like to see some behind the staff room door scenes too! We did see one in Chamber of Secrets when Snape manipulated Lockhart with the other teachers following his lead. And there have a very few comments by McGonagall that have several of us thinking she and Snape at the very least respect each other. No idea what he might say about Harry. As far as Harry making the first move....I just can't see it.....not while he's still a teen. I'm not sure if all of Snape's "loathing" of Harry is for real or is partially an act, but I don't see him making any effort in the near future either. As long as he may have to face LV, he needs some unpleasant Harry memories to toss out. And as long as there is a chance LV can look into Harry's head Snape needs for Harry to honestly dislike him. Potioncat From crussell at arkansas.net Tue May 25 17:59:02 2004 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:59:02 -0000 Subject: Unlikeable Hermione wasRe: Chapter 18: Dumbledore's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Meredith" wrote: > > If anything annoyed me about Hermione in > OotP and GoF (and that's a big if) it's her tendency to be a little > more mother hen-like fussy, a la Molly Weasley, not know-it-all > bossy. We've always known Hermione was a know-it-all, and she's been > called on it before (by Snape, mostly). But her bravery and > friendship far exceeds that. Besides, there are worse faults - > actually, we know lots of people with worse faults, don't we? > Hermione's tendency to mother hen has been present, IMO, in all of the books. Perhaps, the noticeable increase in the last two books is due to the ever increasing danger of the Voldemort situation and, especially in OotP, Harry's increasing volatile temper. I believe Hermione's prime objective has always and will continue to be Harry's well-being. Let's face it, IMO, Harry is becoming more and more rash in his thinking. At certain times, there are adults who act as a calming influence- or at at least attempt it- on Harry. Hermione seems to step in when no other voice of reason is available. In the past, Hermione's mother henning was primarily confined to choosing homework over quidditch practice. The stakes are getting higher. By the way, I love the character of Hermione and I love the dynamics of the H/Hr friendship. Their friendship is very vital to Harry in some ways more so than his friendship with Ron. After all, JKR did say "Harry needs her badly"-didn't she? Bugaloo37, who came out of lurkdom to defend her girl, Hermione From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue May 25 18:10:32 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:10:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Progression of the books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99392 Katey Couric: "As you know, the most recent installment of the Harry Potter book series is being released this week-end. What do think about that?" Steven King: "I really like the books. If I had the chance, though, as a fellow writer, I'd ask her one question - 'When did you decide not to write children's books?'" Gina: If that is the same interview I saw he was saying how impressed he was with her writing ability and said "When did she stop writing ONLY for children and start writing for everyone" - this is not an exact quote! But in several interviews plus his book "On Writing" King has said how impressed he is with the fact that JKR has written so beautifully an entire series that is targeted at EVERYONE! Gina- who agrees with King that this series was some impressive writing. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue May 25 18:12:39 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:12:39 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99393 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > We don't have direct canon that DD gave Snape this mission. But we do > have canon that DD gave Snape an extremely critical mission: teach > Harry occlumency. And at this moment of truth, Snape let his emotions > get the better of him. He stopped giving Harry lessons because Harry > peeped and saw his 20 yrs old underwear. Snape knew exactly what was > at stake here. Sirius knew it also. He said to Harry in Umbridge's > fireplace (paraphrasing from memory) "listen to me Harry, the most > important thing in the world right now is for you to learn > occlumency". Sirius hated the fact that Snape was the one to teach > Harry occlumency, but unlike Snape, Sirius usually doesn't let his > emotions get the better of him. Not in the really critical moments. > Not since he was 16. > Kneasy: No canon, no. Just another Kneasy theory extrapolating from the text. I don't blame Snape for throwing Harry out. Just who the hell does Harry think he is? Poking into people's private affairs, not trying to learn, disobeying not only Snape but DD, never considering that someone else may know better than he. Obnoxious little creep. A true Slytherin. What Harry was taught and how was no business of Sirius. He should never have intervened with Snape at Grimmauld Place. He's being a petulant prima donna - again. It's liable to encourage a dangerous mind set in Harry "Well, Sirius is against him too, so that's all right!" What could Harry possibly learn from Sirius? Nothing, except how to ruin everything you touch. > Kneasy wrote: > Yes, Sirius obviously cares for Harry very deeply. He just has a funny > way of showing it sometimes. > > Neri: > Yeah, I know. Like rushing to save Harry's life (and the life of five > other kids) in the DoM against a superior force of DEs. You won't > catch "watch-dog" Snape doing such a funny thing. > Kneasy: Yes. Rushing off, disregarding all blandishments and where did it get him? The final curtain. Sirius cocks it up again. You have to hand it to him, he's remarkably consistent. Secret Keeper, Pettigrew I, Pettigrew II, Kreacher, accompanying Harry to the station, the Ministry....... an unblemished record of total failure. There seems to be this strange idea that just because he's professed that he cares for Harry then it would be sacrilege to consider him less than a shining example of near perfection. Not so. He's dangerously flawed if not an outright ESE. Suppose he had survived, what would be the likely result - Harry would consider that he could do no wrong, he would do nothing without Sirius's approval. And Sirius would mess up again, he can't help it. He was a danger to Harry. Better he be removed. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 18:14:33 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:14:33 -0000 Subject: Things that could have gone wrong In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > Where exactly is the world "prank" used in canon.? I was under the > impression that it was a fan word that has gradually crept in. > Apologies if I am wrong. > > Sylvia (quite prepared to admit I may be - I often am) No, I was wrong. I was under impression that in the Shack Remus actually called it "Prank", while he calls it Trick. So, unless "Prank" appears in OoP somewhere (I cannot look it up today - only have my PoA copy with me), Prank is not a canon term. Regardless, I happen to find it fitting. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 18:23:57 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:23:57 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > Kneasy: > What Harry was taught and how was no business of Sirius. He should > never have intervened with Snape at Grimmauld Place. He's being a > petulant prima donna - again. It's liable to encourage a dangerous > mind set in Harry "Well, Sirius is against him too, so that's all right!" > What could Harry possibly learn from Sirius? Nothing, except how to > ruin everything you touch. > Kneasy, Kneasy, Kneasy... I know you like Sirius.... very deep inside. :o) (I suspect just as much as Pippin admires Lupin :o)) What Harry was taught and how was Sirius' business. Even under normal circumstances family can take interest in their younglings studies and Harry's situation is very far from normal. He interfered, because he cared for Harry. A lot, I'd say. > Kneasy: > There seems to be this strange idea that just because he's professed > that he cares for Harry then it would be sacrilege to consider him less > than a shining example of near perfection. Not so. He's dangerously > flawed if not an outright ESE. Suppose he had survived, what would be > the likely result - Harry would consider that he could do no wrong, he > would do nothing without Sirius's approval. And Sirius would mess up > again, he can't help it. > He was a danger to Harry. Better he be removed. Love. It all goes back to love for me. I prefer human being who is able to express love for someone else. If Sirius survived (until Rowling officially negates that on her site, I am still inclined to believe in it :o)), Harry would have a father figure, who loves him just for him. I know that some posters said that Snape is the real father figure for Harry, but sorry, does not cut for me yet. Yes, being strict is good, but positive reinforcement is also necessary. :o) Alla From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue May 25 18:34:26 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:34:26 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius vs. Snape References: Message-ID: <000801c44286$e8ddfe10$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 99396 I haven't read all of the posts in this thread because there are just so darn many of them - but I'm confused by the amount of venom being thrown at Severus by Sirius lovers and vice versa. Surely I'm not the only person here who is capable of considering them *both* as being far from 'perfect' (but no-one's perfect and they both seem to have a heap load of good reasons for why they act the way they do, without trying to excuse the way they act because they're both capable of being quite spiteful and *incredibly* childish at times) and *still* adores them both absolutely (to the point where I refuse to get too deeply involved in this thread because it's doing dangerous things to my blood pressure and my ability to be polite to people). And pretty much the same thing goes for Remus too - although minus the bit about him being spiteful since his faults lie in other areas. No, none of them are perfect. Yes, all of them periodically exhibit some very bad characteristics. But this doesn't stop any of them from being utterly lovable (in my opinion). K From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 18:55:54 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:55:54 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: <000801c44286$e8ddfe10$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99397 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > I haven't read all of the posts in this thread because there are just so > darn many of them - but I'm confused by the amount of venom being thrown at > Severus by Sirius lovers and vice versa. > > Surely I'm not the only person here who is capable of considering them > *both* as being far from 'perfect' (but no-one's perfect and they both seem > to have a heap load of good reasons for why they act the way they do, > without trying to excuse the way they act because they're both capable of > being quite spiteful and *incredibly* childish at times) and *still* adores > them both absolutely (to the point where I refuse to get too deeply involved > in this thread because it's doing dangerous things to my blood pressure and > my ability to be polite to people). > > And pretty much the same thing goes for Remus too - although minus the bit > about him being spiteful since his faults lie in other areas. > > No, none of them are perfect. Yes, all of them periodically exhibit some > very bad characteristics. But this doesn't stop any of them from being > utterly lovable (in my opinion). > > K No, you are not the only one. As I said in my earlier post, if I were to compare Sirius and Severus only between themselves, I would most likely liked them the same. The problem is I do consider "Harry's factor". :o) Remus is a different story for me. Way too blah. Unless Rowling will "spice him up" later. :) From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 25 18:59:05 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:59:05 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: <000801c44286$e8ddfe10$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99398 K wrote: > I haven't read all of the posts in this thread because there are just so > darn many of them - but I'm confused by the amount of venom being thrown at > Severus by Sirius lovers and vice versa. > > Surely I'm not the only person here who is capable of considering them > *both* as being far from 'perfect' (but no-one's perfect and they both seem > to have a heap load of good reasons for why they act the way they do, > without trying to excuse the way they act because they're both capable of > being quite spiteful and *incredibly* childish at times) and *still* adores > them both absolutely (to the point where I refuse to get too deeply involved > in this thread because it's doing dangerous things to my blood pressure and > my ability to be polite to people). > > Potioncat: If you really step back and look at them without favoring one over the other, you see that they are a lot alike, in looks and behavior. And someone pointed out neither can look at Harry without seeing James. (Oh oh, sounds like a prophecy..neither can look at the one without seeing the other...) I have lots of fun defending Snape, because let's face it, he's a pretty terrible person! Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 25 19:11:52 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:11:52 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99399 Alla wrote: > Love. It all goes back to love for me. I prefer human being who is > able to express love for someone else. If Sirius survived (until > Rowling officially negates that on her site, I am still inclined to > believe in it :o)), Harry would have a father figure, who loves him > just for him. I know that some posters said that Snape is the real > father figure for Harry, but sorry, does not cut for me yet. > > Yes, being strict is good, but positive reinforcement is also > necessary. :o) Potioncat: Snape? A father figure? For Harry (his twins, maybe, but Harry?) Nope, can't see it either, and I'm a Snape fan. I'm not sure Sirius should have been a father figure either....uncle figure perhaps. What did DD call Sirius? Father/brother...or was it friend/brother to Harry? I don't think anyone has really stepped in to be a father figure for him. Although, Lupin came closer I think. Now, let's not get into his faults.... Potioncat From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue May 25 19:13:42 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:13:42 -0000 Subject: Chapter 18: Dumbledore's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99400 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" wrote: > I'm sorry it's so late . . . > > Chapter 18 Dumbledore's Army > > ...Summary removed.... > > Bits of interesting information revealed in this chapter: > > -Apparently, it's generally required that students go outside at > break. Did anyone else feel a touch of school memory at the > line "They were allowed to remain inside over break due to the > downpour outside"? Remember being required to spend recess > outside? Even when it was below freezing and wet out? > bboy_mn: When I was in grade school, I used to hide in my locker rather than go out in the freezing cold or pouring rain. I had a pretty good system where I would wait until I heard the kid at the locker next to mine hang up his coat. Then when it got quiet again, I would rejoin the rest of the kids in the classroom. Worked great until one day when the kid with the next locker was absent from school and I stayed in the locker 20 minutes past the beginning of class. Had a heck of a time talking my way out of that one. Actually, upon reflection it seems a little sad, as well as a little sick. But I assure you that I turned out to be a perfectly normal axe murde... er... electronics techincian... yes, that's it... electronics techician. (Just kidding) > Amy Z: > > Questions to kick off discussion: > > 1. Proposition: Hermione, by fretting about the restlessness and > recklessness that will in fact do Sirius in, is shaping up into an > insufferable know-it-all and JKR had better bring her down a peg or > two or we'll really hate her (Hermione, not JKR) before the series > is over. Discuss. > bboy_mn: Everyone seems to be having a go at Hermione. Personally, I find her character perfectly believable, and she makes plenty of mistakes. Example: knitting hats and socks for the house-elves; she couldn't possibly have been more misquided. Some people critisized her comments about relationships (Harry & Cho), but I thought they fit very well for an intelligent level-headed girl her age. It's very easy to see and understand the relationships of the people around you, much more so than your own relationships, because you have no emotional investment to cloud your thinking. I think any intelligent mature outside observer (especially a girl) could have given Harry the same advise. It's also very easy to come up with the answers after the fact. Harry had to function under the pressure of the moment, whereas Hermione has the luxury of time and hindsight. More to the main issue of the book itself and its author, I think JKR has done an outstanding job of capturing the internal thought processes and emotions of young teens, especially boys. I'm really amazed that she, JKR, understands them so well. > Amy Z: > > 2. Harry reads about a potion that creates confusion, recklessness > and hotheadedness. ... Is Snape (or someone) actually giving > Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts to Sirius, or to Harry himself? > bboy_mn: Well, you are not the only person to read that into this scene, but personally I don't see it. Harry is very tired and having trouble concentrating as he reads, so when he reaches certian keywords, those words trigger thoughts, thoughts about things that are troubling him, thoughts that are on his mind, and he drifts of into these new unrelated thoughts until his concentration returns and he continues on reading. Then he reaches a new keyword, and his thoughts drift off again. That happens all the time to me when I read; my mind drifts off on tangents. We are simply seeing an intersection of the words on the page of the book Harry is reading with thoughts that are percolating in the back of Harry's mind. I think any hotheadedness or recklessness by either Harry or Sirius have other perfectly logical explanations; explanation that are either stated or implied in the overal storyline. > Amy Z: > > 3. Harry says Dark detectors can be fooled. What do you suppose he > means? > bboy_mn: I think this comes from the time when Harry is having tea with Moody in Moody's office. Moody explain why some of his Dark Detectors had to be disabled, and other can't be trusted. It's very hard to determine when Dark Deceptive Wizards are lurking about when the place is saturated with minor deception like kids playing pranks and lying about their homework. In a way, it's not so much that the detectors can be fool as it is that the readings they give can't always be trusted or interpreted properly. So, it's not the dark detectors that can be fool, but the wizard who is relying on them that can be fooled. > Amy Z: > > 4. So, what do you think about Harry as a teacher? And, given that > he already has a beaut of a curse on him, should he go for the DADA > job? > bboy_mn: I think Harry does a good job, and would likely improve greatly with experience. But I don't think we will see him in the role of a professional teacher; in other words, he won't take the DADA position. However, I'm a firm believer that the DA Club will continue as a school-wide (Slytherins included) club. In a school-wide club which would logically have many many more members, Harry now has the 24 original members of the DA Club with a year of training and experience to act as his assistant teachers. Plus, he has that great set of books Remus and Sirius gave him for Christmas. Not to restart an old discusison, but the continuation of the DA Club ties into my blief in the appearance of one or more Good Slytherins. One thing to consider, in the OotP DA Club, Harry had members who were eager, friendly, and cooperative. It will be interesting when he has to teach kids who are a little less loyal and a little less enamoured with him. > Amy Z ends with: : > 5. And one to take to OTChatter: If you found the Room of > Requirement, what need would take you there and what would you find > in the room? > > > Amy Z > bboy_mn: How about a box full of winning lottery tickets? Heaven knows I could use the money. bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue May 25 19:39:07 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:39:07 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Kneasy, Kneasy, Kneasy... I know you like Sirius.... very deep > inside. :o) > > (I suspect just as much as Pippin admires Lupin :o)) > > What Harry was taught and how was Sirius' business. Even under normal > circumstances family can take interest in their younglings studies > and Harry's situation is very far from normal. He interfered, because > he cared for Harry. A lot, I'd say. > > Kneasy: Like Sirius? Why on earth should I like Sirius? He's the sort I avoid in pubs. See, I suspect that you're going back to the "But he likes/loves Harry" bit. So what? How does that change his basic nature? It doesn't IMO. After all, it's possible Goering loved his mother - does that make him any more acceptable? Sirius isn't family at all. He has an honorary title (Godfather) that means absolutely nothing unless you are a professed Christian. The only obligation it carries is to make sure that the Godchild is eventually Confirmed according to established Church practices. And I can't see how that has anything to do with the WW. Otherwise it has no more connection than being Best Man at the Wedding does. At most it identifies him as a friend of James and Lily. It gives him no rights or control whatsoever. > Alla: > Love. It all goes back to love for me. I prefer human being who is > able to express love for someone else. If Sirius survived (until > Rowling officially negates that on her site, I am still inclined to > believe in it :o)), Harry would have a father figure, who loves him > just for him. I know that some posters said that Snape is the real > father figure for Harry, but sorry, does not cut for me yet. > > Yes, being strict is good, but positive reinforcement is also > necessary. :o) > > Kneasy: Love. That stuff. It addles your brain, encourages you to do things that in retrospect you'd rather forget. That's romantic love, of course. So what sort of 'love' do you postulate between Harry and Sirius? Father and son? I don't think so. Harry sees Sirius as a link to James, not a replacement. Unless you're thinking of going gay just about any other sort of love between males is pretty unlikely. IMO Harry is grasping at the idea of belonging somewhere - the fact that it's Sirius is largely irrelevant. Anyone would do. A boy and his dog perhaps? That's understandable; I cried buckets over Old Shep. What does Sirius feel for Harry? A debt. He feels he owes him for Lily and James. He feels guilty. And that isn't love. Left to his own devices he would spoil Harry rotten. Not good. Positive reinforcement? A boot up the backside is the best there is. From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue May 25 17:05:58 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:05:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99402 | From: snow15145 [mailto:snow15145 at yahoo.com] | Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 1:38 AM | Harry, like his mother, just can't see injustice done to anyone no | matter how much you don't like that person, no matter what they say | or do to you. But in this respect, where Harry sees his father as | being bad and Snape as the victim has me extremely puzzled given the | circumstances of what his mother said to Snape in the end, it all | comes back to why Harry would be sympathetic to Snape, for me. [Lee says]: Go back before the pencieve scene. Unfortunately, I can't give you page numbers because I'm using Jim Dale's reading of the audio books, US. (And I'd love to get a good copy of the audio UK editions from S. Fry.) Anyway, the place I'm talking about is when Harry uses a "Protego" charm to stop Snape and starts to see pitiful childhood memories of Snape being shouted at and cowering. How many times had Harry been in that same circumstance, perhaps, when he was very small? Of course a part of him would sympathize; he's seen parts of Severus' life that Severus would probably wish he himself could forget. So, IMHO, instinctively, Harry champions the weak because he knows how it feels. It's a rotten feeling and no one should have to go through it and if Harry can help, he will. That's my take on this, for whatever it's worth. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From mnaperrone at aol.com Tue May 25 17:18:14 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:18:14 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99403 > > Neri (also yielding to the temptation): > We don't have direct canon that DD gave Snape this mission. But we do > have canon that DD gave Snape an extremely critical mission: teach > Harry occlumency. And at this moment of truth, Snape let his emotions > get the better of him. He stopped giving Harry lessons because Harry > peeped and saw his 20 yrs old underwear. Snape knew exactly what was > at stake here. Sirius knew it also. He said to Harry in Umbridge's > fireplace (paraphrasing from memory) "listen to me Harry, the most > important thing in the world right now is for you to learn > occlumency". Sirius hated the fact that Snape was the one to teach > Harry occlumency, but unlike Snape, Sirius usually doesn't let his > emotions get the better of him. Not in the really critical moments. > Not since he was 16. Ally: Well, not to condone Snape here, but I don't think the occlumency lessons are a good example of Snape failing at something important for a few reasons. 1) I think the person most responsible for Harry not learning occlumency is Harry. We have ample evidence that he never, during the entire course of the lessons, bothered to really try to learn. He had a few instinctual moments of success with Snape, but he never did his homework, so to speak. So even if Snape had continued, there's no reason to believe Harry would have applied himself, because he hadn't in the past. 2) Occlumency lessons really weren't that important after all. After Snape stopped giving the lessons, what happened? Remus said he would talk to him. DD was informed as well, as he later told Harry. If occlumency was so important, why wasn't Snape forced to resume them? DD said that in the end, occlumency wasn't important. Did he know that after Snape and Harry's blow up? It seems likely to me, given that he apparently didn't order Snape to resume the lessons. [Aside - I've always thought the occlumency lessons were just a ploy by DD to force Snape and Harry to spend time together in hopes of them finding a common ground, kind of like the dueling club may have been a ploy and DD may have allowed Harry to face V in the first book.] I think it's apples and oranges to compare Snape and Sirius. Both have problems and both have done stupid things as a result of them. Sirius did lose his head at a critical moment, though - when he left Grimmauld Place. That doesn't make him better or worse than Snape - who knows what opportunities will come for Snape to lose his head in future books? I just don't think occlumency lessons are a good example of that. From mnaperrone at aol.com Tue May 25 01:20:22 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 01:20:22 -0000 Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Pippin wrote: > > > > > > What about when he showed his Dark Mark to Fudge? All > this ambiguity about whether Snape or Sirius is worse is very > clever work on JKR's part, since it distracts us from Lupin who > was worse than either of them. There is no question that he > thought what he was doing was wrong and he continued to do > it.<< > > Ally: > You are absolutely right. Lupin's flaw is really the most > reprehensible of all, isn't it? At least Sirius and Snape will pick > a side - although they may make mistakes about it - and fight for > it. Remus fully understood it there was no justification for doing > terrible things to Snape. He allowed it because he was too weak > and afraid to stop it. > > > That said, do you think JKR will do something significant with it > in future books?<< > > Pippin: > *Finally!!!!* Somebody gets it! ::blushes:: er, yes. If Lupin were > tricked or blackmailed or jinxed into serving Lord Voldemort, > how would he get out of it, given how weak and afraid he is? > Would he tell the truth to Dumbledore? > > Or would he find an excuse not to tell...continue to serve the > Dark Lord in secret, hoping against hope that Voldemort would > overreach himself in the end. > > But the prophecy says there's a choice to be made--you can > serve Harry or Voldemort, not both. Ever notice how much > Lupin's boggart looks like a prophecy orb? > > Pippin > who has been saying that Lupin is definitely dodgy since post > 39362 Ally I'm ready to jump on the dodgy Remus bandwagon! I think you make an excellent point about how JKR pushed Snape and Sirius into the forefront, leaving Remus always there in the background. I've always really detested Remus' wishy-washiness, but its so easy to give him a pass when JKR paints him as such a nice guy and never has him do anything offensive or "loud," so to speak. He drove me crazy in the pensieve scene, and it drove me BONKERS when he forgot his wolfsbane potion. How ineffectual is that? So, I think Remus is definitely vulnerable to manipulation, particularly if V had something over Remus that would make him look bad in Harry's or DD's eyes. Didn't JKR say Remus would play and important part in future books? Everyone assumes its going to be something heroic or good, and I generally did, too, but I do think its interesting that JKR has not called too much attention to Remuses weakness. She could be setting us all up. . . From offworld_xanatos at yahoo.com Tue May 25 17:30:28 2004 From: offworld_xanatos at yahoo.com (xani) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:30:28 -0000 Subject: Remus is the worst (Peter's motivation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99405 Mandy here: I have speculated that he was put in a position where he had to choose between his family and his friends. Of course this is pure speculation, but it does beg the question how do you choose between people you love? Now xani: I too am fascinated by Peter and the choices he made. Is he really Evil, or just weak? I would like to think that he had to make a terrible choice to try to save someone, but there is evidence against it. In the Shack, Peter defends his actions by saying that Voldemort was going to kill him only. It would have made for a much more tragic and complex scene if Peter had told Sirius that he had to do what he did because the DE's had his mother, sibling, child. That would have helped Sirius (and us) understand and empathize with him. But JKR has shown us only a weak man who gave his friends lives for his own. ~xani (who believes that Peter WAS good at one time....) From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Tue May 25 17:43:29 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava Gordon) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:43:29 -0000 Subject: Remus is the worst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99406 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > > Mandy here: > Renee you make a very good point. Life is about choices, and it is > easy to say `make a choice between what is easy and what is right', > but sometimes the choice that has to made, is between bad and worse. > How then, so you decide which is right and because neither choice > will be easy? Ava - Just wondering if you could clarify - when you say 'bad' and 'worse', do you mean (A) morally/ethically or (b)in terms of how rotten it would make the decision-makers life? Mandy - > I have defended Peter Pettigrew on many occasion. He's a fascination > to me because I see similarities between himself and myself at high > school. Fortunately I grew up to be a relatively normal adult. > Haven't killed anyone, although I've though about it at times. ;-) Ava - Relating to my question, above - is that because (a) killing is wrong or because (b) the punishment for the crime sounds unpleasant, & you're not best buddies with Johnny Cochran. If you're like most people, I suspect, the answer is a combination of both, but ultimately, the question is - why does someone make the choices they make? Mandy - > In thinking about Peter's defection, I have speculated that he was put > in a position where he had to choose between his family and his > friends. Of course this is pure speculation, but it does beg the > question how do you choose between people you love? Ava - No evidence he made any such choice. In fact, little Petey decided to follow Voldemort even when the Big Cheese was at his weakest & there was nothing stopping him from continuing his miserable ratty little life. What could be defensible about that? Mandy - > Sirius' answer was to die. Ava - How so? If you're talking about Way Back Then, he foisted his duty on Peter, & then tried to kill the Rat. Arguably, if the thought that killing Peter could send him to Azkaban entered Sirius' mind at all, he made a sacrifice in risking imprisonment by chasing Peterdown, but at that point, he was already a wanted man for the Potters death, so heck, what's another friend's murder, in the scheme of things? Mandy - He told Peter he should have died rather than sacrifice > his friends, but that is easy coming from a man with no children, or > family, only friends. Again, we don't know if Peter has any family > at all either and perhaps he doesn't and Sirius was right. But I'm > certain the DE and Voldemort used such techniques in converting > people to their side. Threatening to kill children and family to > force someone into committing heinous crimes. Ava - Know what? From what we've seen of Peterkins, I bet he's sacrifice his 1st born to save his own hide. Mandy - > How do you choose between one child and another? How do you choose > between the deaths of one or two people over the deaths of many? Is > it easy to make that sacrifice for the greater good? Well, what if > those two deaths are your children or parents, or brothers and > sisters? Ava - Don't see that any of that lot, w/ the possible exception of Potter, had that choice to make. Mandy - > I think Remus is constantly battling with the kind of conflict within > himself. How could he stand up to James and Sirius in school when he > knew they were the only friends he had and they knew his secret? He > knew how vindictive they were, if he spoke out against them they > could have destroyed his life with one sentence. "He's a werewolf." Ava - If he thought that of his best friends, doesn't say much for them, does it? But I agree, Lupin more or less admits that part of the reason he couldn't control P&B was because he didn't want to risk losing their friendship. Mandy - > Remus now appears to be alone. Remus lives in fear, a very dark and > sad place. And I have to say it would be, or was, as easy for Remus > to fall to Voldemort as it was for Peter. Ava - Peter had no compunctions about ratting out his best friend to the biggest bully in the playground. Can't see Lupin doing that. Now, if you want to weigh Lupin against Snape, that seems more plausible. Of course the fun thing with Snape is to play around with the question of his big Why Voldemort? (Well, that's not the only fun thing of Snape's to play around with, but I digress...) From mimi.barker at mindspring.com Tue May 25 18:49:52 2004 From: mimi.barker at mindspring.com (Mimi Barker) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:49:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst Memory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99407 This chapter works better for me if I add a mental parentheses after the title, i.e. "Snape's Worst Memory (For Harry To See)". I think that if Harry had seen Snape beeing humiliated by any other students, it would have had little or no effect on him. He may have snickered, he may have had a moment of sympathy, but it would not have changed him much. It was the fact that the tormentors were his father and godfather that makes this scene so powerful. He has idolized and idealised his parents his whole life. The times he gets really angry and loses his temper are when people insult his parents. Think Aunt Marge and when Snape suspects he's been to Hogsmeade in POA. Snape says that James strutted around, and Harry loses his temper where he had been keeping it under control until that point. Now, on viewing this memory, Harry finds out that Snape was right. James did strut around. Not only that, but when I read that scene I thought James and Sirius were behaving very much like Draco Malfoy does. What a horrible thing for Harry to discover. Not only is James (at 15) not the great guy everyone has told Harry he is (and undoubtedly became as he matured), but he is as nasty as the person Harry most dislikes among his own peers, and Harry himself has been wrong in his adamant defense of his dad. Even Lily doesn't come off so well, and James and Lily aren't the loving couple Harry imagines. I think the thing that makes this the worst memory is not how awful Snape was treated, but that Harry's idealization of his parents (which is really all he has of them) is shattered. From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 20:15:52 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink?/Remus is the worst In-Reply-To: <070EA6FB.326E04C9.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040525201552.33028.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99408 oraymai wrote:I see myself in Severus. There's no way I can identify with the popular and handsome Sirius. The Sirius who has a group of close friends. I didn't even have very close friends until 8th grade. These debates get ugly because people identify so much with a character that they feel an attack on the character is an attack on themselves. I know when someone attacks Severus, I don't even think before I start typing a reply (most of which I manage to stop myself from sending *grin*). My reply: The odd thing about this is that even though I never had friends I still like Sirius more. Perhaps, it's because as a teacher I see what Severus does and it scares me. However, I am going to say one thing...to me it's not what you were in school but what you become as an adult that is who you are. I am not sure if Sirius or Snape really became much, Snape can still do that I suppose. But Sirius did impact at least one person on a very intimate level and that is Harry. Snape on the other hand is so bitter and holds people at a distance it kind of scares me. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lmthib at earthlink.net Tue May 25 19:24:59 2004 From: lmthib at earthlink.net (Lynette) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:24:59 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Does ancestry play a part in magical ability Message-ID: <13379155.1085513099607.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99409 Mandy here: Do the children of two Magical parents have an advantage? If they do then selection based on blood purity has validity and merit. Neri: This idea is a common mistake, regardless of the moral issues. This is why crossbreeds are often stronger and healthier than both pure-blood parents. When people want to breed animals for ability, such as faster horses or cows with more milk (as opposed to show animals that are only supposed to conform to some "ideal" model) they are constantly bringing in new blood into the lineage, or they quickly arrive at a dead end. Neri Lynette: Neri is very correct and you only have to look at those groups, who interbred because of "pure blood" reasons (the royal houses of Europe and the resulting blood diseases) or religion (the eastern European Jews and Tas Skas (sp?) disease) or geographic isolation (Cajins and several rare genetic diseases). If these groups had added new blood and not internamed with first through third cousins, the genetic diseases would have not been seen, but have only been producing less and less carriers. You have to have 2 carriers marry and then you would only get 1 out of 4 chances with the disease, 2 chances of carriers, and 1 chance of non-carrier. Lynette Hermione is misunderstood From mnaperrone at aol.com Tue May 25 17:32:24 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:32:24 -0000 Subject: Remus is the worst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99410 > Oryomai: > > > 2. I have to agree with Pippin on this. Remus is the worst of the > lot. There is nothing worse than standing by and doing nothing when > you know something is wrong. I know there's a line in Farenheit 451 > about this, but I can't remember it. By standing by and letting > things happen, a person is just as guilty as those who act. It > wasn't just once that Remus stood by, it was time after time. > > Renee: > > Sorry, but I fail to see why standing by and doing nothing is worse > than actively harming someone without any direct provocation, as > happens in the Pensieve scene. I don't see why Remus is worse than > Peter, either. Fortunately, you put it differently the second time: > Remus is just as guilty. He's not worse. Or at least, not in this > scene. (PoA is a different matter.) Ally: I think Remus is worse. When I think of Remus, I think of the person in the South during Jim Crow who didn't believe the races were unequal but stood by and watched a lynching occur. I think of the German citizens in WWII who had nothing against the Jews but didn't speak out when a jewish neighbor was carted off to a concentration camp. It didn't JUST take the KKK or the Nazis to commit these atrocities. It took the silence and refusal to intervene of those around them. The actors and the passive observers were equal partners in the terrible things that occurred. Their passivity was a necessary component of the actors' success. But we focus so much on the actors - because they're out in the open - that we forget the role the passive observers play. So what makes Remus worse to me is, in a sense, the easy presumption that he somehow isn't. At least Sirius' impetuousness and arrogance are out in the open. Remus' wishy-washiness - his contribution to Snape's humiliation - is hidden. He is a partner in it, but pretends he isn't. It makes it easier to feel you aren't responsible if you don't act, and it makes it easy for others to forget the part you played. And, in my mind, that makes it easier to repeat those mistakes. Its that insidious aspect of it that makes it worse. Its harder to see and harder to fight. From Snarryfan at aol.com Tue May 25 20:23:06 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 20:23:06 -0000 Subject: Future change in Snape(was Re: Sirius vs. Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99411 Alla wrote: > Harry would have a father figure, who loves him > just for him. I know that some posters said that Snape is the real > father figure for Harry, but sorry, does not cut for me yet. > > Yes, being strict is good, but positive reinforcement is also > necessary. :o) Waiiit, he needs to forget the past, first! :) What I see in the last book, around Christmas,it's a meeting with the Dursley. Vernon, apparently encouraged by harsh treatment of Snape on Harry, goes too far and try to hurt Harry (again). Snape stop him and send Harry away for a moment, to search someone or something. When he come back, Snape looks paler. In the next days, or months, Harry sees something different in Snape; he looks at him strangely, the insults sound different, and no more comparison with his father. Harry thinks that Snape try to hurt him at the good moment with a snide comment about the Dursley, but what he don't know ( and us too), it's that Snape Legilimesed Vernon to verify if he was Imperioed but he saw that he made the attack on his own will, and the rest too, the attempt of strangle, the cupboard and more. Now, he doesn't know how act around him anymore, he lost his marks and he try to see who's the true Harry, or to find again a familiar place/world. In the same time, he forgets James. I had also another scenario, where someone poison Harry and only Snape manages to see it, or he manages to find him when every one search him, and noone find him. ( I could see Harry hiding in Snape's office because nobody would think to search him there. No, really, would you think to search him there? :D) Christelle, who wonder if McGonagall knows about the cloak and the map. From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Tue May 25 16:31:05 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava Gordon) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 16:31:05 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape (Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99412 Kneasy: > Coping with unfairness and disappointment is part of growing up; > if they never experience it, how can they learn? Read a text-book? > Not if you're Harry Potter. Not if you're anybody. Kneasy: > Besides, does it matter if you make a mistake and support the baddy? > Not in the least. It's unlikely to appear on your CV, now is it? Well, that depends what your occupational objective is, doesn't it? "Ava Gordon" From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue May 25 20:43:21 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 20:43:21 -0000 Subject: Life Debts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99413 > Lives Harry has saved: > > Hermione: in PS with Ron's help > Ginny: COS > Peter Pettigrew: POA > Sirius Black: POA, twice, once with Hermione's help... (I wonder if > this deep magic will allow Harry and/or Hermione to have a > connection with Sirius behind the veil?) > Buckbeak: POA, but not human, so maybe the life debt doesn't apply > Dudley: OoP, but Dudley isn't a wizard is he? > > What others have I forgotten? What about Arthur Weasley In OOtP when he was bitten by the snake. Harry's alerted MM and DD after his "dream" and the prompt response saved his life. Julie From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue May 25 20:57:28 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 20:57:28 -0000 Subject: Remus changed James and Sirius was Re: Remus is the worst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99414 Ally wrote:- >>>> It didn't JUST take the KKK or the Nazis to commit these atrocities. It took the silence and refusal to intervene of those around them. The actors and the passive observers were equal partners in the terrible things that occurred. Their passivity was a necessary component of the actors' success. But we focus so much on the actors - because they're out in the open - that we forget the role the passive observers play. > So what makes Remus worse to me is, in a sense, the easy presumption that he somehow isn't. At least Sirius' impetuousness and arrogance are out in the open. Remus' wishy-washiness - his contribution to Snape's humiliation - is hidden. He is a partner in it, but pretends he isn't. It makes it easier to feel you aren't responsible if you don't act, and it makes it easy for others to forget the part you played.>>> Ali responds:- I agree that Lupin is in many ways an emotional coward. I think that Lupin himself would agree. But I feel that your comparison is rather an extreme one. Lupin is certainly guilty of not carrying out the role of prefect properly, but that is hardly a crime. Are you a criminal because you watch a crime? I don't think so. He's not an accessory to James' and Sirius' crimes, he did not agree with much of what they did. He just didn't have the gumption to face up to them. Even so, his lack of support did temper their, err, shall we say enthusiasm. The fact that he did not challenge them to stop, is not the same as giving them tacit support ? they knew that. There is a very famous phrase, which I misquoted once before, but is something along the lines of "For evil to succeed, all it needs is for good men to do nothing". There are two things that need to be pointed out here; Lupin did not collude with Sirius and James: he made them "feel ashamed of ourselves sometimes" p. 591 OoP UK edition. Secondly, look at my garbled quote: the phrase "good men". It is a sad fact that through history basically good people have failed to stand up to atrocities. This certainly doesn't make them brave, but I absolutely fail to see how this makes them as bad or worse as the ones who are committing the acts. I don't think that anybody would try and argue that Sirius and James were not bullies. But, however despicable their acts, I feel they fall a long way short of the heinous groups you mentioned. However much we like to imagine ourselves as brave and doing the "right" thing, fear is a very real emotion and threats whether real or perceived can have very real consequences. Is it not possible that had Lupin challenged James and Sirius, they would simply have bullied him as well? But instead, they had a moral compass attached to them, and in time, little by little, they did take heed of it, and ceased to act like bullies. Perhaps, Lupin's cowardice actually paid off and did more for them than if he had openly challenged them. By staying with them, but without supporting them he helped them to see the error of their ways more than any detentions or confrontations would ever have done. Ali From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 25 21:21:39 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:21:39 -0000 Subject: Remus is the worst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99415 > Ally: > > I think Remus is worse. When I think of Remus, I think of the person > in the South during Jim Crow who didn't believe the races were > unequal but stood by and watched a lynching occur. I think of the > German citizens in WWII who had nothing against the Jews but didn't > speak out when a jewish neighbor was carted off to a concentration > camp. > > Potioncat: I understand what you're saying, but I disagree about Lupin. He would not be in the Order if he was that type of coward. Yes, as a teen he was unable to stand up to friends. As an adult he was afraid to tell DD about some of his past, but he faced Pettigrew and Black when he thought they were attacking Harry. Potioncat (who agrees Lupin is flawed, but who isn't?) From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 21:30:52 2004 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Remus is the worst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040525213052.54263.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99416 --- potioncat wrote: > > > Ally: > > > > I think Remus is worse. When I think of Remus, I > think of the > person > > in the South during Jim Crow who didn't believe > the races were > > unequal but stood by and watched a lynching occur. > I think of the > > German citizens in WWII who had nothing against > the Jews but > didn't > > speak out when a jewish neighbor was carted off to > a concentration > > camp. > > > > > > Potioncat: > I understand what you're saying, but I disagree > about Lupin. He > would not be in the Order if he was that type of > coward. Yes, as a > teen he was unable to stand up to friends. As an > adult he was afraid > to tell DD about some of his past, but he faced > Pettigrew and Black > when he thought they were attacking Harry. > Potioncat (who agrees Lupin is flawed, but who > isn't?) I'd like to use Dumbledore's comments from the end of PS. He was proud of Neville, and told Neville that it took a special kind of courage to stand up to ones friends. That's where Remus fails. He can stand against an enemy, but not a friend. He's too afraid of losing that friendship to challege those friends when they do something horribly wrong. Likewise, he's too afraid of losing Dumbledore's respect to tell him about the secret passage. He let Snape be terrorized and he put Harry life at more risk (well, technically he didn't, but he didnt' know that) because of that. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 21:34:21 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:34:21 -0000 Subject: Remus is the worst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Potioncat: > I understand what you're saying, but I disagree about Lupin. He > would not be in the Order if he was that type of coward. Yes, as a > teen he was unable to stand up to friends. As an adult he was afraid > to tell DD about some of his past, but he faced Pettigrew and Black > when he thought they were attacking Harry. > Potioncat (who agrees Lupin is flawed, but who isn't?) I don't think that Lupin is more flawed than Sirius or Snape. On the contrary, to me he is so far significantly less flawed and this is going back to ... boring character. You know what I am hoping for? I am really hoping for than in those twelve years before Remus came to teach at Hogwarts, he did something really exciting or something really in the grey area as far as morals are concerned. No matter how much I love Pippin's theory, I don't believe that Rowling will ever make Remus a "black" character, but I certainly hope that she will add more "greyness" to him. Alla From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue May 25 21:40:11 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:40:11 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99418 Kneasy: I don't blame Snape for throwing Harry out. Just who the hell does Harry think he is? Poking into people's private affairs, not trying to learn, disobeying not only Snape but DD, never considering that someone else may know better than he. Obnoxious little creep. A true Slytherin. What Harry was taught and how was no business of Sirius. He should never have intervened with Snape at Grimmauld Place. He's being a petulant prima donna - again. Neri: I apparently wasn't very clear. I'll try again: This is a war. The whole future of the WW is at stake. Harry learning Occlumency was thought to be the difference between winning and loosing. Snape knew it. And still he stopped giving Harry Occlumency lessons just because the obnoxious, disobedient, inconsiderate (and whatever) Harry peeped into his memories. Snape got annoyed with an unruly student, so he knowingly left the most critical and sensitive position of his side open to the enemy's attack. And you call SIRIUS prima donna? > Kneasy wrote: > Yes, Sirius obviously cares for Harry very deeply. He just has a funny > way of showing it sometimes. > > Neri: > Yeah, I know. Like rushing to save Harry's life (and the life of five > other kids) in the DoM against a superior force of DEs. You won't > catch "watch-dog" Snape doing such a funny thing. > Kneasy: Yes. Rushing off, disregarding all blandishments and where did it get him? The final curtain. Sirius cocks it up again. Neri: I'll try clarifying this too. Sirius didn't "cock it up". He achieved precisely what he went out to do: preventing four other Order members and six kids (including Harry) from getting killed AND preventing the prophecy from falling into Voldy's hand. The final curtain wasn't a failure. It was just a price that he was ready to pay for achieving this goal. He would have rather not paid it, but he knew that he might have to. Do you think he was not aware of it when he "rushed off"? The funny thing is, I'm not even a Sirius fan. I didn't feel sad when he died, and I always thought that it was convenient for JKR to get rid of him because she didn't manage to develop him properly as a character. I also like to read about Snape, and I think he is a much more complex and interesting character than Sirius (and their sex- appeal isn't a factor for me...). It is just that I like to get my terms straight. What is a responsible person? It's a person that estimates the importance of the situation at hand, knows what are the possible consequences, what are the risks, weights them against each other and makes the correct decision, whatever it takes. What is an irresponsible person? It's a person that estimates the importance of the situation at hand, knows what are the possible consequences, what are the risks, and then acts by his emotions. Perhaps I just think so because I had to spend a year or two in a war zone. If I had to choose who I want to cover my flank, Sirius or Snape, I wouldn't hesitate even a single second deciding. Neri From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Tue May 25 22:05:10 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:05:10 -0500 Subject: Fw: [Hogs_Head] [HPforGrownups] The permanent problem with Slytherin House Message-ID: <001801c442a4$591f26a0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99420 **Sending this also here, since SSSusan seems to have asked both boards...***--Anne > If that were true--if the > emphasis on purebloodedness had phased out over the years--then why > does the Sorting Hat still bring it up during Sorting? THAT is my > problem with it--it's still given as an attribute of Slytherins, is > it not? > > Or have I made that up and the Sorting Hat doesn'e mention that? > Have I just extrapolated from what the students were told about the > four founders' falling out? > > > > Silverthorne: > > Hmmmmm...*gets books* > > Book 1: > '...Or perhaps in Slytherin, You'll make your real friends > Those Cunning folk use any means, to achieve their ends....' > > Book 2: > Missed due to Whomping Willow. > > Book 3: > Missed due to Dementor attack > > Book 4: > 'Shrewd Slytherin from fen...(snip) > And power-hungry Slytherin > Loved those of great ambition.... > > Book 5: > 'The Houses that, like pillars four > Had once held up the school > Now --turned upon each other-- and, > --Divided, sought to rule--....(snip) > What with dueling and with fighting > And the clash of friend on friend > And at last there came a morning when old Slytherin departed > And though the fighting then died out > He left us quite downhearted > And never since the founders four > have wittled down to three > Have the houses been united > As they were once meant to be..." > > Lost about ambition, but no mention of Pure Blood in the Hat's songs--So I > think that came afterwards with those that twisted Salazar's intents... > From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Tue May 25 22:14:54 2004 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:14:54 -0000 Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99421 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" Ally: > Didn't JKR say Remus would play and important part in future books? > Everyone assumes its going to be something heroic or good, and I > generally did, too, but I do think its interesting that JKR has not > called too much attention to Remuses weakness. She could be setting > us all up. . . Renee: She could. But in that case, she'd be a liar. In the Albert Hall interview, quoted in post 98769 by Justine, JKR called Lupin 'a great man', and the other things she says about him confirm the positive connotation this phrase has (if anyone can give me a quote where it's used in a purely negative way, to denote a thoroughly bad guy, I may have to change my mind about it). JKR knows how many children and young adults devour everything she says about her own characters. I simply can't imagine she'd first tell them Lupin is one of the positive characters in the series, and then betray their trust by turning him into the exact opposite. My own kids believe her, and a Lupin turned evil would partly spoil the books for them. (And for me, too, though not as badly as a Snape who turns out to be on Voldemort's side after all.) Meanwhile, I do think the text as such allows for a Lupin-induced disaster. My impression is, that JKR has a better opinion of Lupin than he actually deserves. Which is a testimony to the power of her characterisation: In RL the person you admire can be the one your neighbour detests while still being the same person (I'm not talking about situations where the neighbour knows more about him). JKR has given Lupin a number of qualities she admires and one huge flaw. Some of her readers think the flaw overshadows the good qualities. But to me, it's apparent that she doesn't. It's nice to play with possible developments. But I'll draw the line when I'm being asked to believe JKR is deliberately lying in order to present us with surprising plot twists. Renee From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Tue May 25 22:17:28 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:17:28 -0500 Subject: Fw: [Hogs_Head] Re: Fw: [HPforGrownups] The permanent problem with Slytherin House Message-ID: <002501c442a6$11071e20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99422 > Oops...song was way too bloody long...(flipped back a page...^^;) > > 'Said Slytherin, "We'll just teach those whose ancestry is purest... > For instance, Slytherin > Took only pure-blood wizards > Of great cunning, just like him...' > > Silverthorne, correcting her own research mistake! > Okay, so it *is* canon--late cannon. but cannon. > > Seems more like JKR added it in later to cover her own arse in making > Slytherin House justifiably 'evil'. > > Not fair, Jo! Should have had a hint other then other people just saying it > before book four! > > > ************************************* > > Anne/Silverthorne > Silverthorne.Dragon at verizon.net (Nights and Weekends) > Anne-TMC-RCVG.Campbell at tenetheath.com (6am-3pm American Central, Mon-Fri.) > > "It is better to die than to loose your wrench"--Paraphrased from a former > Navy Mechanic. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Silverthorne > To: Hogs_Head at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 5:03 PM > Subject: Re: [Hogs_Head] Re: Fw: [HPforGrownups] The permanent problem with > Slytherin House > > > If that were true--if the > emphasis on purebloodedness had phased out over the years--then why > does the Sorting Hat still bring it up during Sorting? THAT is my > problem with it--it's still given as an attribute of Slytherins, is > it not? > > Or have I made that up and the Sorting Hat doesn'e mention that? > Have I just extrapolated from what the students were told about the > four founders' falling out? > > > > Silverthorne: > > Hmmmmm...*gets books* > > Book 1: > '...Or perhaps in Slytherin, You'll make your real friends > Those Cunning folk use any means, to achieve their ends....' > > Book 2: > Missed due to Whomping Willow. > > Book 3: > Missed due to Dementor attack > > Book 4: > 'Shrewd Slytherin from fen...(snip) > And power-hungry Slytherin > Loved those of great ambition.... > > Book 5: > 'The Houses that, like pillars four > Had once held up the school > Now --turned upon each other-- and, > --Divided, sought to rule--....(snip) > What with dueling and with fighting > And the clash of friend on friend > And at last there came a morning when old Slytherin departed > And though the fighting then died out > He left us quite downhearted > And never since the founders four > have wittled down to three > Have the houses been united > As they were once meant to be..." > > Lost about ambition, but no mention of Pure Blood in the Hat's songs--So I > think that came afterwards with those that twisted Salazar's intents... > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > Hogs_Head-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 25 22:20:45 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:20:45 -0000 Subject: "Mudbloods" vs. halfbloods In-Reply-To: <20040525063840.32249.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99423 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, astrud schuck wrote: > Carol ended with: > > Carol, who wonders how many DEs secretly hold LV in contempt for > having a Muggle father and resent him for tricking their pureblood > selves into serving him > > Astrud: > The DEs may not hold any contempt for LV afterall. Their desire to wipe out every witch and wizard who isn't pureblood was seen possible through LV because he was very powerful even if he was halfblood. So they placed themselves under his service. Geoff: Comparisons have been drawn on the group previously with Adolf Hitler. He was not German; he did not fit the Aryan criteria he laid down for those Gemans who fitted the Herrenvolk - the superior race who would rule the world - and yet he was feted and adored by his supporters because he appeared to be giving them the power which they sought. Which remarks would also apply to Adolf Voldemort it would seem.... From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 25 22:35:54 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:35:54 -0000 Subject: Progression of the books In-Reply-To: <32990.143.250.2.101.1085506515.squirrel@www2.neonramp.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David Burgess" wrote: Dave: >> From a pure mass perspective, GoF would have been impossible for most > children to read. I mean, I started it when it came in at 2PM on > Saturday, and finished it at 5PM on Sunday, and I read for a living - > there's no way a 10 or 11 year old kid is going to sit down and read an > 1100 page book in one sitting. Geoff: But why should you expect folk to read it at one sitting? I've just restarted reading the whole cycle and I've got to about Chapter 8 in PS and am managing to find time to read perhaps one chapter a day. So i'm going to be some little while yet on this first book. Even when I first bought OOTP last year, it took me abou four days to get through. Dave: > I'm even daunted from starting it again, > just because I don't have 27 hours to grind through it again. Now, I know > a lot did and I understand how they did it, but if you are writing a > children's book, you aren't going to do it 1100 pages at a time. Geoff: On the question of younger children reading the later books, which was raised in a recent post on this thread, one of the families in my church is, like me, well into HP. Their youngest child, a girl of 8, got through OOTP quite safely in a few days and was able to talk about it quite happily and enjoy the story. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue May 25 22:38:03 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:38:03 -0000 Subject: there are SHIPs and... sorry but Luna reminds me of wormtail. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99425 Dan wrote: So, if someone asked me who Harry would "be with" (if he survived, which he won't) I'd say Hermione, but if they asked who, in the best of all possible outcomes, he would be with (though even there he'd not survive) I'd say Luna. vmonte responds: I hate to say this because I really like the character of Luna, but I just reread the book and she reminded me a lot of wormtail. She really seems like a kiss a** in certain sections of the book. The train scene where she laughs uncontrollably at Ron reminded me of the penseive scene where Sirius tells James (not sure who made this remark) to stop before wormtail wets himself. (I really hope I'm wrong because I think Luna is an interesting character. vmonte From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Tue May 25 22:33:51 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:33:51 -0500 Subject: The Sorting Hat (Was: The permanent problem with Slytherin House) References: <002501c442a6$11071e20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <003101c442a8$5b1a3680$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99426 > 'Said Slytherin, "We'll just teach those whose ancestry is purest... > For instance, Slytherin > Took only pure-blood wizards > Of great cunning, just like him...' Silverthorne: *Small rant and a bit of disillusionment* Now that I've had *that* rude little awakening...I have to say that I honestly *do* believe JKR is shooting herself in the foot--if we're to believe that this *is* one of the absolute criteria the Hat is using for Slytherin...that means she really *has* set up the House, as a whole, to be 'evil'...no wonder she doesn't understand fans identifyng with it--they bought into her whole 'Looks aren't everything' thing and applied it even to the House that it should not be applied to, if we're following the hats (her) rules. What happened to "The Label isn't Everything?" Everyone but Slyth house is permitted that excuse, I guess.... Well, I guess now I'll have to wait until JKR really *does* pull a non-bigoted Slytherin out of her hat (Since there's enough ambiguity to Snape that we can't say with complete impunity that he isn't Salazar's 'ideal'...) Thanks JKR...you couldn't just leave it be with the rumors? (Now feeling *very* annoyed and unhappy and disillusioned...*sigh*) Anne/Silverthorne Who believes far more in individual choice then determining a person by placing them in a box.... From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 23:05:13 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 23:05:13 -0000 Subject: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99427 Ally said: Well, not to condone Snape here, but I don't think the occlumency lessons are a good example of Snape failing at something important for a few reasons. 1) I think the person most responsible for Harry not learning occlumency is Harry. We have ample evidence that he never, during the entire course of the lessons, bothered to really try to learn. He had a few instinctual moments of success with Snape, but he never did his homework, so to speak. So even if Snape had continued, there's no reason to believe Harry would have applied himself, because he hadn't in the past. 2) Occlumency lessons really weren't that important after all. After Snape stopped giving the lessons, what happened? Remus said he would talk to him. DD was informed as well, as he later told Harry. If occlumency was so important, why wasn't Snape forced to resume them? DD said that in the end, occlumency wasn't important. Did he know that after Snape and Harry's blow up? It seems likely to me, given that he apparently didn't order Snape to resume the lessons. >snip< Snow: Did you ever consider the possibility that this whole occlumency thing could have very well been created by DD for the specific purpose of using Snape and his pencieve memory purely for Harry's emotional response? Nothing else was obtained by the actual lessons. When DD learned about Snape's refusal to further teach Harry, DD did not pursue it. Could that have been because the lesson that needed to be taught, was taught? (IMO) Harry was being taught it just wasn't occlumency. Harry learned exactly what DD wanted him to know. Harry needed to be put through enough ordeals in an attempt to teach him restraint and control over his emotions. Mcgonagall attempts to teach Harry this fact when Harry persists in antagonizing Umbridge. Harry learned throughout the whole 5th year of emotions and was forced to deal with them, most of which he had to deal with on his own, but constantly being guided towards controlling his emotions. The list is ever so long of the people and situations that Harry had (was allowed?) to endure. I don't believe in the "ever so evil" DD but how about the "ever so manipulative" DD? The end product was Harry's emotions saving him from being possessed by Voldemort. Would Harry, during the attempted possession, have felt enough emotion to endure the pain if he had not previously had several doses of pain to assure the strongest emotional result? This very question that I pose reminds me of what DD said to Harry at the end of book 1: DD says: "I arrived just in time to pull Quirrell off you-" "I feared I might be too late." Harry says: "You nearly were, I couldn't have kept him off the Stone much longer-" DD replies: Not the Stone, boy, you- the effort involved nearly killed you." To that I ask what effort? I think it may be the same effort that was needed to stop the possession of Voldemort this time around, too. This time, after enduring a substantial amount of emotional ordeals, Harry is much stronger and endured the test. Wasn't possession by Voldemort the real concern from the very beginning of book 5? That was DD's greatest fear that Voldemort would attempt to use Harry by possessing him and not to DD's demise but to Harry's. I don't think DD created all the anguish Harry had to go through but I do believe he allowed it to happen and possibly prompted some of it in an attempt to make him stronger for the eventual confrontation. Something else from book 1 that I think foreshadows this scenario: Oliver Wood calls Harry the "secret weapon" before the first Quidditch game and now in book 5 he is "Weapon Harry." Just something to think about. Snow From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Tue May 25 23:03:15 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:03:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Sorting Hat (Was: The permanent problem with Slytherin House) In-Reply-To: <003101c442a8$5b1a3680$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99428 Silverthorne wrote : Now that I've had *that* rude little awakening...I have to say that I honestly *do* believe JKR is shooting herself in the foot--if we're to believe that this *is* one of the absolute criteria the Hat is using for Slytherin...that means she really *has* set up the House, as a whole, to be 'evil'...no wonder she doesn't understand fans identifyng with it--they bought into her whole 'Looks aren't everything' thing and applied it even to the House that it should not be applied to, if we're following the hats (her) rules. Lady Macbeth replies: But what you're suggesting there is that being pureblood makes someone automatically "evil". It's the same argument I have with people who are quick to label people of any group "evil" just because they fall under the label of that group. It should be noted that Slytherins are also, by Hat traits, cunning and ambitious - both of those words tend to take on negative connotations with the average person, but neither is inherently "bad" in and of itself. Americans pride themselves on cunning and ambition. (Wait a minute...I think I just contradicted myself...) I think what worries Jo about fans identifying with Slytherin house is that she can't be certain that all of those fans have looked beyond the surface - would YOU want to hang around with someone who, for all practical purposes, acted like a total arse to anyone who was different than them, made prejudices based on name alone, randomly attacked people for no apparent reason and belittled weaker people? Probably not. But, that's what we've been offered out of Slytherin House, as far as canon goes. And, with the exception of Draco Malfoy and his parents, we've no good reason to believe any Slytherins are even "pretty" or "good looking". Digging below the surface, however, people start to see themselves. Some people use group affiliation as a defensive mechanism. People LIKED the Nazis when they first started out, after all - the Nazi party was a NATIONAL, SOCIALIST party - they promoted better life for the average German person. No they didn't want Jews in their country - Jews were (in their eyes) destroying their country and the morality of the German people. The same was said for gypsies, homosexuals, and even people who had abortions. Salazar Slytherin was not that far off that same mark - he wanted what was good for the WIZARDING people. Muggles, especially in that time, were a THREAT. Did he honestly have any reason to believe that muggle-born students wouldn't bring muggle influence to Hogwarts with them? No. But, like the Nazi party, Slytherin house has gotten carried away. It's spawned leaders like Voldemort who push to the extremes and walk the fine line between genius and insanity. It's taken a good but flawed goal and twisted it into a dangerous mechanism against other people. People today can claim to be Nationalists, or Socialists, but they are hesitant at best to even admit that they see any good in the Nazi party. The same has happened to Slytherin house. It's not a "bad" thing for wizards to be called "purebloods". The Weasleys are purebloods. We all noticed in Order of the Phoenix that at least one Weasley took his ambition for success to the point that he alienated himself from the rest of the family. The Blacks are purebloods. The Blacks were notorious for their various goals in ambition. The Malfoys are purebloods - and not at all lacking in ambition. But, in their world, it IS a bad thing to be called "Slytherin". I think that's why Slytherin is a house that Jo would be worried about her fans emulating - because to do so, we have to read deep into what motivates a Slytherin, or else be the crappy kind of person they are on the surface. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop, from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saitaina at frontiernet.net Tue May 25 23:27:11 2004 From: saitaina at frontiernet.net (Saitaina) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 16:27:11 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Sorting Hat (Was: The permanent problem with Slytherin House) References: <002501c442a6$11071e20$05030f04@dslverizon.net> <003101c442a8$5b1a3680$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <009901c442af$cef095c0$01fea8c0@domain.invalid> No: HPFGUIDX 99429 Silverthorne wrote: But we're not sure if this IS criteria the Sorting Hat has. It's mentioned in a song, far removed from the time the hat was created. And considering the times the Founders lived in I can understand that Salazar would only want to teach the purest, but it's never mentioned that he specifically told the hat that this was an absolute (and not just a launching point), nor is there any talk of what happened after he left. For all we know, Godric, Rowena and Helga could have talked the hat into lessening that requirement after Salazar left. JKR can't understand her fans identifying with the house because she herself doesn't. It's rather hard to understand traits in others that we don't share (Just like I can't understand some people who would lean toward Gryffindor or Hufflepuff). Besides, is there any doubt that Tom M. Riddle, a half blood, was in any other house? I mean really, he has Slytherin written across his forehead. And Harry, who would be by Salazar's standards, a half blood also has Slytherin qualities (and not just those he got via The Curse That Failed). Lady Macbeth wrote: Actually, I would. We only see the public faces of the Slytherin's, and not what they're like away from the other houses, or even their dormates. When your main traits are ambition, cunning, manipulation, ect, you learn very quickly to hide behind whatever mask you need to. The students expect certain things from the Slytherins and the Slytherin's in turn give it to them. They've been classified as evil, cruel and bastards for so long that it's easier to just play along then to go against the tide. I've been in their shoes, heck, I still am in those shoes. I've worn whatever mask I could to get me where I needed to go. I've been cruel, I've been a jerk, and I even took pleasure in it at times. But that wasn't who I was, not really. It was just a part to be played. Any evil that does come from the house (Voldemort) is not the result of him being in Slytherin. He could have been a Gryffindor or Hufflepuff and I still think he would have choosen to go down that road. The seeds of who he is were sown long before he came to Hogwarts, the school just helped him release it. Any trait from any house can be used for to disadvantage or ill, often more so then the Slytherin traits because Slytherin is always looking out for themselves, and often can see the personal danger (unless of course you become immune to even your own failings). And I don't see how emulating some of the surface aspects of Slytherin's would be all that dangerous of turning someone into the public face (or crappy person) of a Slytherin. Each house has something to be desired, and each has something to be ignored. Saitaina who hopes that lot made sense **** "Potter, if a sixteen year old has perfect skin, that's a pretty good indication that he's dabbling in the Dark Arts." http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue May 25 23:34:39 2004 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 23:34:39 -0000 Subject: Does ancestry play a part in magical ability? was: The permanent prob. with In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99430 Mandy asked: > The question is then; does ancestry play a part in the magical > ability of children? ... > Do the children of two Magical parents have an advantage? If they do > then selection based on blood purity has validity and merit. They > would by nature have greater potential to pass on to their offspring, > and the rules of natural selection dictates that at least some > pureblood must remain or the WW would eventually die out. This would only be true if magic behaved as a genetic trait, which previous discussions have led me to believe it does not. Pureblood and half-blood are only social terms; they don't seem to have any basis in fact. First of all, the magic ability does not come in degrees; you are either a witch/wizard, or you aren't. The terms pureblood, half-blood, and Muggle-born don't actually indicate anything about level of ability. I don't think Rowling could possibly emphasize this point any more than she has; she's given us Muggle-borns with above average ability (Hermione, Lily), purebloods with below average ability (Neville, Crabb, Goyle), and the entire spectrum in between. The lack of a correlation between magicness and number of magical parents indicates against magic being a multi-gene trait. Also, magic ability is certainly not inherited as a single-allele trait. From what we've seen, a muggle-born with is as likely as a pureblood to have magical children, i.e. extremely likely. Ohterwise, I would have expected to hear about this phenomenon when we were introduced to Squibs, who despite numerous theories remain an extreme minority. I disagree with the idea that purebloods must remain or magic will die out. It seems that once magic "appears" in a child, it's available to be passed down to future generations, regardless of how that child received it (whether from two magical parents, only one, or by the random chance by which it appears in Muggle-borns). And in a similar line of thought, "inbreeding" between purebloods shouldn't have any negative effects on the magical ability of their children (although the normal genetic results will of course surface if it continues in too small a group). So, in my opinion, no, purity of blood remains a social idea, and does not convey any actual benefit, other than social acceptance in certain circles. -Corinth From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 25 23:56:56 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 23:56:56 -0000 Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99431 > Ally: > > > Didn't JKR say Remus would play and important part in future books? Everyone assumes its going to be something heroic or good, and I generally did, too, but I do think its interesting that JKR has not called too much attention to Remuses weakness. She could be setting us all up. . . > > Renee: > > She could. But in that case, she'd be a liar. In the Albert Hall > interview, quoted in post 98769 by Justine, JKR called Lupin 'a > great man', and the other things she says about him confirm the positive connotation this phrase has (if anyone can give me a quote where it's used in a purely negative way, to denote a thoroughly bad guy, I may have to change my mind about it). > Pippin quotes: "I think we must expect great things from you, Mr. Potter....After all, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things--terrible, yes, but great" -- PS/SS ch 5 "Not Slytherin, eh?" said the small voice. "Are you sure? You could be great, you know, it's all here in your head and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that--no? Well, if you're sure--better be GRYFFINDOR!" --PS/SS ch 7 Greatness isn't synonymous with goodness, that's for sure. Pippin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed May 26 00:28:40 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 00:28:40 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Mommy_can=92t_protect_you_forever?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99432 Annemehr: Actually, I quite agree with Reed. I don't know about how "smart" it is; it's just how the magic works: Lily died defending Harry against Voldemort, and Harry is protected from Voldemort's touch. Remember in PS/SS that Quirrell, with LV residing inside him, could not even withstand mere skin contact with Harry without getting blistering burns, not even when *Harry* touched *him.* Yet, Dudley has always been able to punch Harry with no ill effects (and wasn't it Piers who was normally the one to *hold* the victim's arms while Dudley beat him up?), and he did it for years before Harry ever met Quirrell. So, yes, I'm sure the skin contact protection applied only to Voldemort, and furthermore that it was triggered by contact alone and not just when Harry was being attacked. Neri: DD words in SS/PS: "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realise that love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection for ever. It is in your very skin. Quirrell, full of hatred, greed and ambition, sharing his soul with Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason. It was agony to touch a person marked by something so good." This can be interpreted as if only LV or someone sharing his soul with him would trigger the protection, but also as if any extremely bad person could do it. Dudley wouldn't have fit the bill, but Wormtail could have. Voldy in the graveyard scene says: "I wanted Harry Potters blood. I wanted the blood of the one who had stripped me of power thirteen years ago for the lingering protection his mother once gave him would then reside in my veins too. " If the protection is specifically anti-LV, I'd say the last thing Voldy would want to do is get it into his body. It is much easier to explain why he did it if we assume that the protection protects the carrier from any great threat. It is of course possible and even likely that Voldy himself got it wrong, but there is still the question, how could LV get Lily's anti-LV protection into his own blood without suffering. Annemehr: Here, I agree. The power that saved Harry in the MoM came from his own heart. I hadn't noticed that anyone thought it was part of Lily's protection before, but it had never even occured to me that Lily had anything to do with it. The power of Lily's love saved Harry in Godric's Hollow, but Harry has his own powers and goodness himself. Neri: Is it indeed obvious to anybody? I'd be glad for some feedback on this. Annemehr: It might be useful to try and sort out all these protections, if only because I myself find them all confusing and tend to forget which applies where. Please tell me if I'm not making sense! 1)Lily's Sacrificial Death -1a)Caused AK rebound. Was it limited to that *one* AK, or was LV then generally unable to AK Harry, if only he could hold a wand? As for other wizards, I believe that they could still AK Harry if they tried. In any case, LV is quite unafraid to attempt AK on Harry since his reembodiment, and DD felt compelled to block the one aimed at Harry in the MoM with a statue. -1b)Touch Protection. IMO, LV, and LV alone, could no longer stand skin-to-skin contact with Harry; extended to those LV possesses. Overcome by LV by using Harry's blood in reembodiment potion. Neri: See above why I think the protection was not specific to LV. One might say that this question doesn't have any importance now, if we agree that Lily's protection doesn't work anymore anyway. However, there is one scenario in which this question can be very important: if LV believes he bought himself protection from anybody with Harry's blood, but it actually doesn't work, LV might take a hit when he least expects to. Annemehr: 2)Privet Drive Protection. DD used Lily's sacrificial death to arrange protection for Harry at the home of Lily's blood relative as long she takes him in and Harry can call it "home." Unclear to me exactly who this applies to and what the boundaries are. As DD sent Harry back there after LV's overcoming of 1), it's implied that it is still in effect independently of the sacrifice which made it possible, which is why I listed it separately as 2) rather than 1c). 3)Resistance to Possession by LV. As I said, IMO this is a power of Harry himself. Here, I will agree that Jo is playing games with us, though. DD is so cagey about explaining it to Harry, telling him Harry knows what that power is as if it's obvious, yet he takes pains not to name it. I assume that Harry's resistance to LV's possession is very important to how Harry will defeat him, which is probably why Jo doesn't want to define it too closely. Though we've toyed with various ideas on this list, I always come back to "love" being the most fitting explanation. The key to the whole thing may be the particular form or manifestation of love that will come into play, which she's still keeping secret. Neri: "Love" was the word DD used when explaining Lily's ancient magic in SS/PS, but now you agree that the-power-behind-the-locked-door is something else than Lily's protection. So is it a different kind of love? One key for finding the identity of this power might be asking: How did Harry get it? Lily's protection took no less than sacrificing her life. This suggests that Harry must have done some very powerful things to acquire his new power. What did he do that can fit this bill? Here are some things that Harry had done: 1. He put his life on the line to prevent LV coming to power in SS/PS. 2. He saved Ginny's life in CoS, again risking his life and preventing LV's rise to power. 3. He let Wormtail live in PoA 4. He took Cedric's body home in GoF, again risking his life for it. 5. He went to rescue Sirius in OotP The last one is also given as an effect: "that power took you to save Sirius tonight", but it does not mean that it couldn't be also a cause. It means, however, that Harry had at least some of his power before the DoM battle. And things that other people had done for Harry: 6. Ron sacrificed himself on the chess board in SS/PS for Harry 7. Sirius gave his life to save Harry in OotP 2, 5, 6, and 7 can be ascribed to Love. The others cannot. Therefore I think it is not exactly love. Neri From jferer at yahoo.com Wed May 26 00:44:28 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 00:44:28 -0000 Subject: there are SHIPs and... sorry but Luna reminds me of wormtail. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Dan wrote: > So, if someone asked me who Harry would "be with" (if he survived, > which he won't) I'd say Hermione, but if they asked who, in the best > of all possible outcomes, he would be with (though even there he'd > not survive) I'd say Luna. > > vmonte responds: > I hate to say this because I really like the character of Luna, but I > just reread the book and she reminded me a lot of wormtail. She > really seems like a kiss a** in certain sections of the book. The > train scene where she laughs uncontrollably at Ron reminded me of the > penseive scene where Sirius tells James (not sure who made this > remark) to stop before wormtail wets himself. I don't see Luna as a Wormtail at all. Wormtail had this insecurity, a resentment of those around him who were better than he was; he was second or third class and knoew it. Luna's not like that; it takes a lot of sense of self to be an eccentric. Genuine eccentrics are often happy people, because their sense of self doesn't rise and fall with what other people think. (People who act odd because of some underlying problem aren't eccentrics). I like Luna. We don't know her well enough to have a good idea who she'd be good for, but I kinda doubt it's Harry. Actually, she gives the first impression of being a no-shipper herself, pursuing her life interests on her own. That's highly subject to change, but she's an interesting, sympathetic, character who seems to have a lot of peace with herself. Jim Ferer From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Wed May 26 00:44:06 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:44:06 -0500 Subject: House Associations (Was: Re: Slytherin in Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99434 Mandy here: I immediately though of the Tarot when I read the above posts. The four suits in Tarot are Swords, Cups, Wands, and Coins, and each suit is equated with one of the four elements, Air, Water, Fire and Earth. While thinking about symbolism and the four Hogwarts houses, this is what I came up with: The Sword of Gryffindor: The Wand of Slytherin: The Coins of Ravenclaw: The Cup of Hufflepuff: Just a thought. Lady Macbeth replies: I've also noticed an elemental connection in the houses, but I set them up a bit differently. In comparing the elements, names, symbols, colors and traits given to the houses, I thought this association likely: Gryffindor: Their symbol is the lion, a traditional fire-element creature. This is also appropriate for the Gryffin, a creature said to appear as half eagle and half lion. Colors are red and gold - traditional colors associated with fire; even five year olds use these colors when coloring in fire. Gryffindors, at least on the outside, are portrayed as brave, noble and honorable - all traits that suggest a male element. This points to Wands - which, of its own, also indicates energy, creativity, passion and spirit. Interestingly enough, wands are also associated with career or work situations. In excess, this can lead to obsession about a career, as we've seen in Percy Weasley. Slytherin: Their symbol is the serpent, a traditional water-element creature. Their name reflects the symbolism well, as "slither" is most often associated with snakes and serpents. Colors are green and silver - traditional colors associated with water. Slytherins are portrayed as ambitious, cunning, using any ends to achieve their goals and prideful of blood heritage. They are also noted for being sneaky, subversive and otherwise "dark" magicians, all of which suggest a traditional female element. This points to Cups, which govern emotions, relationships, love and intuition. The least noticed aspect, however, is immediately seen but rarely observed - the cup is a natural way to keep things hidden, and thus is associated with hidden agendas. (And, if we want to get nitpicky and stretch things, who was it that kept winning the House CUP and the Quidditch CUP until Harry showed up and shifted the balance?) Hufflepuff: Their symbol is a badger, a defensive but not often noticed creature of the earth. They fiercely protect themselves and their underground dens from intruders but otherwise stay out of peoples' way. Colors are yellow (gold) and black - traditional colors associated with earth. Hufflepuffs are portrayed as hardworking, diligent, loyal, unassuming and accepting. Their quiet and accepting nature suggests a female element. This suggests Pentacles - Pentacles traditionally represent money, material matters and physical well-being, but are also a reflection of gain through hard work. Ravenclaw: Their symbol is a hawk, an agressive and dominant bird of prey. Birds, particularly birds of prey, have long been associated with the sky and air, and thus the mind. Ravenclaws find strength in intelligence and dedication to education and study. These aspects, the strength of the bird and the focus of the mind, suggests a male element - Swords. Swords represent the mind and intellect, communicating and conflict. As we saw with Cho Chang, this can also (when reversed) be disastrous - lack of communication and too much conflict fractures bonds. I think that Harry pulling the Sword of Gryffindor was significant in that it showed the Gryffindor in him - but that it was just that, a sword. I imagine a lot of "brave, daring and noble" men of Godric Gryffindor's era carried them. ^_^; -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop, from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at vcem.com Wed May 26 00:56:15 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:56:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Progression of the books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75445574.20040525175615@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99435 Hi, Tuesday, May 25, 2004, 3:27:50 AM, Jospehine wrote: > But what would be interesting to monitor > would be if JK continues to write more mature topics, will she lose > her younger audience? Well, she might, but she is also losing some of her audience by taking longer between the new installments. My husband used to be very much into HP, but he hasn't even looked at OoTP, and I don't think he will, at this point. His interest has moved on to other subjects, and I know he is not the only one this will happen to. One thing about the younger audience: there is always the hope they will pick up the books when they are older, and more able to understand the subtleties, and not so intimidated by the number of pages. At some point, the rave will wear off, and HP will be just another story among many, I suspect. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From BrwNeil at aol.com Wed May 26 01:03:21 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:03:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: there are SHIPs and... sorry but Luna reminds me of w... Message-ID: <48.2c42a264.2de546d9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99436 In a message dated 5/25/2004 8:46:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jferer at yahoo.com writes: I don't see Luna as a Wormtail at all. Wormtail had this insecurity, a resentment of those around him who were better than he was; he was second or third class and knoew it. That is scary. You just described Ron. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snow15145 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 01:39:28 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 01:39:28 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99437 > > Snow-who always tries to understand both sides... > > Kneasy: > A laudable aim; trouble is, you'd miss out on all the fun. The cut and > thrust of debate, screams of outrage from offended supporters of this > character or another, searching for more and better canon, subtle > analyses and interpretations. Lovely! > > Remember, it's those in the middle of the road that end up getting > stenciled down the highway on the tyres of some juggernaut. Besides, > does it matter if you make a mistake and support the baddy? Not in > the least. It's unlikely to appear on your CV, now is it? Snow in response: Kneasy, I appreciate your response to my post. I would just like to say: I try never to become to emotionally attached to a character...it clouds the vision of the inner eye=== From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 02:02:56 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 02:02:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > The funny thing is, I'm not even a Sirius fan. I didn't feel sad when > he died, and I always thought that it was convenient for JKR to get > rid of him because she didn't manage to develop him properly as a > character. I also like to read about Snape, and I think he is a much > more complex and interesting character than Sirius (and their sex- > appeal isn't a factor for me...). It is just that I like to get my > terms straight. What is a responsible person? It's a person that > estimates the importance of the situation at hand, knows what are the > possible consequences, what are the risks, weights them against each > other and makes the correct decision, whatever it takes. What is an > irresponsible person? It's a person that estimates the importance of > the situation at hand, knows what are the possible consequences, what > are the risks, and then acts by his emotions. > > Perhaps I just think so because I had to spend a year or two in a war > zone. If I had to choose who I want to cover my flank, Sirius or > Snape, I wouldn't hesitate even a single second deciding. > > Neri Neri, for someone who is not the fan of the character, you are doing a great job of defending the said character, IMO. Yes, I would not hesitate either if I had to choose who I want to cover my flank, but because of the only reason that I am still a bit afraid that Snape may switch sides. I have no doubt that Snape can be just as loyal as Sirius was , the problem is we still don't know where his true loyalties lie. Alla From siskiou at vcem.com Wed May 26 02:18:45 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:18:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: there are SHIPs and... sorry but Luna reminds me of w... In-Reply-To: <48.2c42a264.2de546d9@aol.com> References: <48.2c42a264.2de546d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <1938186321.20040525191845@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99439 Hi, Tuesday, May 25, 2004, 6:03:21 PM, BrwNeil wrote: > In a message dated 5/25/2004 8:46:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jferer at yahoo.com writes: > I don't see Luna as a Wormtail at all. Wormtail had this insecurity, a > resentment of those around him who were better than he was; he was > second or third class and knoew it. > That is scary. You just described Ron. Ron might be insecure, but do you see him worship at Harry's feet, and generally act the way Wormtail does? And does Harry treat Ron the way Sirius and James treated Peter? Ron may have one thing i common with PP, but that doesn't mean he otherwise is like him, or will make similar choices. In fact, so far his personality and choices seem vastly different. And Ron is perfectly able to try and defend himself and others, without relying on Harry's powers. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed May 26 02:48:27 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 02:48:27 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99440 Alla said: > > Love. It all goes back to love for me. I prefer human being who is > > able to express love for someone else. If Sirius survived (until > > Rowling officially negates that on her site, I am still inclined to > > believe in it :o)), Harry would have a father figure, who loves him > > just for him. I know that some posters said that Snape is the real > > father figure for Harry, but sorry, does not cut for me yet. > > > > Yes, being strict is good, but positive reinforcement is also > > necessary. :o) And Kneasy replied: > Love. That stuff. It addles your brain, encourages you to do things that > in retrospect you'd rather forget. That's romantic love, of course. > So what sort of 'love' do you postulate between Harry and Sirius? > Father and son? I don't think so. Harry sees Sirius as a link to James, > not a replacement. Unless you're thinking of going gay just about any > other sort of love between males is pretty unlikely. Marianne interjects: I'm a bit confused. Love between males can only be father-son or gay? Seems a bit limiting. God, how wonderful it is to be female and able to feel and express others sorts of love...but I digress. As much as you may hate it, JKR has several times in OoP expressed Harry's affection for Sirius. Chap 5, pg. 83 (US edition): "Harry felt a sudden upsurge of affection for his godfather." Chapter 14, pg. 300. "And with a surge of sympathy for his godfather, Harry thought that Sirius was probably the only person he knew who could really understand how he felt at the moment, because Sirius was in the same situation..." Chapter 37, pg. 828 "He would have been so interested to know all this months ago, and now it was meaningless compared to the gaping chasm inside him that was the loss of Sirius..." Now, of course, this could be merely the whinging of the dim, addled, stupid, head-up-his-arse, clueless Harry that a lot of people claim to see. Or, horror of horrors, it could actually be JKR trying to indicate that, indeed, there was a bond, which included some sort of affection (not gay, not necessarily father-son) between Harry and Sirius. And that's all. Affection. Not that the bond between them was the equal of any father-son bond. Not even that the two of them may have not necessarily perceived each other clearly, seeing the warts and flaws in each other's character. But, affection none the less. Kneasy: IMO Harry is grasping > at the idea of belonging somewhere - the fact that it's Sirius is largely > irrelevant. Anyone would do. Marianne: Yes, Harry does want to belong somewhere. But, evidently "anyone" would not do. Hagrid? Dumbledore? Vernon? Arthur Weasley? Snape? None of these people seem to have fit whatever void Harry is trying to fill. Maybe Sirius is not the ideal person; I guess Harry has to keep searching. Kneasy: > What does Sirius feel for Harry? A debt. He feels he owes him for Lily and > James. He feels guilty. And that isn't love. Left to his own devices he would > spoil Harry rotten. Not good. Marianne: I'm one of those who does think that Sirius loves Harry. I won't argue the point with you. Neither of us will convince the other. Marianne From Batchevra at aol.com Wed May 26 02:59:35 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:59:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths Message-ID: <158.35fcb37e.2de56217@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99441 In a message dated 5/25/04 4:00:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mnaperrone at aol.com writes: (snip) He drove me crazy in the pensieve scene, and it drove me BONKERS when he forgot his wolfsbane potion. How ineffectual is that? (snip) I know people who have forgotten to take their medication even though it was vital that they take it. Haven't you ever forgotten to buy something that you needed immediately or even when it is right in front of you, you don't remember. JKR is pointing at flaws that are done everyday. So Lupin forgot the potion that night, let's see why, He sees on the map a friend that he thought was dead for 12 years, he sees the other friend of his go down a passage that had been a source of revulsion and the best time of his life. He also sees children who are going to the same place and he has to help them. So Lupin forgot, does that make him evil? I personally don't think so, it makes him human. I don't know why people haven't said anything about this, but since it was a night of the full moon, and the Marauders used to roam about the Hogwarts grounds on those nights, ironic that it is repeated in Harry's time. Pettigrew is in rat form, Black is in his dog form, Lupin changes into the werewolf, and Harry conjures the stag Patronus. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed May 26 03:21:45 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 03:21:45 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: <000801c44286$e8ddfe10$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > I haven't read all of the posts in this thread because there are just so > darn many of them - but I'm confused by the amount of venom being thrown at > Severus by Sirius lovers and vice versa. Marianne: Oh, well, a bit of vitriol never hurt anyone ;-). These Snape/Sirius explosions have cropped up at least once a year for the 3 years I've been on this list. Usually someone mentions the Prank, and maybe not in a particularly antagonistic way towards either of our S-men, and people start responding and somehow the train just leaves the tracks. Kathryn: > Surely I'm not the only person here who is capable of considering them > *both* as being far from 'perfect' (but no-one's perfect and they both seem > to have a heap load of good reasons for why they act the way they do, > without trying to excuse the way they act because they're both capable of > being quite spiteful and *incredibly* childish at times) and *still* adores > them both absolutely (to the point where I refuse to get too deeply involved > in this thread because it's doing dangerous things to my blood pressure and > my ability to be polite to people). Marianne: It helps if you learn to identify people whose posts you know will simply send you over the edge and simply avoid reading them. I don't mean to sound elitist or anything, but I know that there are some people who have expressed their opinions about specific characters VERY strongly, and it's almost impossible to have a dialog with them because their views are so strongly held. Nothing you can say will even elicit a "I understand what you're saying, but I disagree." It's more the "How can ANYONE believe that [fill in your least favorite character] is anything but a [fill in your favorite negative adjective.]" It's always interested me that the two characters who spark the most heated discussions and who are always pitted against each other to this level are Sirius and Snape. Not Harry and Draco. Not Harry and Snape. Not Snape and James. Not Voldemort and anyone. These two. I'm not counting SHIPS because that's another kettle of fish... Marianne From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed May 26 04:02:55 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 04:02:55 -0000 Subject: there are SHIPs and... sorry but Luna reminds me of wormtail. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99443 Jim wrote: I don't see Luna as a Wormtail at all. Wormtail had this insecurity, a resentment of those around him who were better than he was; he was second or third class and knoew it. Luna's not like that; it takes a lot of sense of self to be an eccentric. Genuine eccentrics are often happy people, because their sense of self doesn't rise and fall with what other people think. (People who act odd because of some underlying problem aren't eccentrics). I like Luna. We don't know her well enough to have a good idea who she'd be good for, but I kinda doubt it's Harry. Actually, she gives the first impression of being a no-shipper herself, pursuing her life interests on her own. That's highly subject to change, but she's an interesting, sympathetic, character who seems to have a lot of peace with herself. vmonte responds: You're right of course. I'm starting to read too much into everything. It's hard now to read the books without dissecting every little bit. vmonte From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 16:40:05 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Life Debts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040525164005.13198.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99444 Mimi Barker wrote: > Lives Harry has saved: > > Hermione: in PS with Ron's help > Ginny: COS > Peter Pettigrew: POA > Sirius Black: POA, twice, once with Hermione's help... (I wonder if > this deep magic will allow Harry and/or Hermione to have a > connection with Sirius behind the veil?) > Buckbeak: POA, but not human, so maybe the life debt doesn't apply > Dudley: OoP, but Dudley isn't a wizard is he? > > Those who have saved Harry's life: > > Lily: her sacrifice saved Harry from Quirrell in PS, but was it also > the main factor that saved him Voldemort in the beginning? > Snape: in PS, does this repay Snape's life debt to James, or create > a new bond with Harry? Can a life debt be repaid, or is it permanent? > Dumbledore: PS > Harry: POA, his future self saved his past self when he conjured his > patronus > > What others have I forgotten? Don't forget GoF with the tournament: The underwater task (but does that count?) The help that Crouch Jr!Moody gives (what about that one?) Moonmyyst (who just painted her porch the color of Georgia mud on acid) From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue May 25 23:41:19 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:41:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99445 | From: Geoff Bannister [mailto:gbannister10 at aol.com] | Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 16:09 PM | Geoff: | That incident is rather an interesting one. Let's look at canon for a | minute: | | | (COS "The Duelling Club" p.145 UK edition) | | Now certain things have already been suggested in the past about this | incident. | | (1) What exactly did Snape whisper to him? Why was Malfoy smirking? | Was it because Malfoy had just been given this spell? | (2) If Snape is keen on saving Harry, why is he lazily enjoying the | sight? | | Certainly looks more along the glory/power line than rescuing | Harry.... [Lee--Trying to Kill a Migraine): I see what you're saying, Geoff, and also see where you're coming from. :-) Let's say Snape gave Draco the spell...I can buy that. As far as the enjoyment factor displayed by Snape, I'm gonna put a wiggle in here and say that perhaps Snape was conflicted; part of him was, indeed, enjoying the sight of the famous and (dare I say) lauded Harry Potter in a most dangerous position. There might also be a part of Snape that's tickled proud of Draco for handling such a spell. But, there's that part that, for all his seeming hatred of Harry, can't allow the snake to really _do_ anything to him. It's really easy to put Severus Snape in the baddy role, but I can't help looking at what Quirrel said in the first book...about Snape making it easy because of his action. I don't have an exact quote to hand, sorry. Hmm--guess I'm going to have to pull out my HP CDs. Cheers, Lee :-) (And, no, the migraine is from my allergies to the pollen; I'm not allergic to the list!) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed May 26 04:09:14 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 04:09:14 -0000 Subject: Chapter 18: Dumbledore's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99446 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" wrote: > 1. Proposition: Hermione, by fretting about the restlessness and > recklessness that will in fact do Sirius in, is shaping up into an > insufferable know-it-all and JKR had better bring her down a peg or > two or we'll really hate her (Hermione, not JKR) before the series > is over. Discuss. Marianne: I wouldn't call her a know-it-all. She is often right in her assessments and judgements. The problem I had with her in OoP is that she never seems to doubt herself. Or to think that her life experiences as a 15-year-old do not necessarily put her at the same level of experiences as the adults in her world, yet she feels like she understands everyone's personality and motivations perfectly. I can buy it when she's talking about teen relationships, but in other cases, she hit some some wrong notes, at least to my ear. I won't go into the whole elf liberation thing, where I think her heart is in the right place, but she seems to have blinders on. I found her assessment of Sirius' reaction to the successful outcome of Harry's hearing at the Ministry curious. As the time comes close for the kids to leave for school and Sirius' mood darkens, Hermione says it's because he's being selfish because he was really hoping that Harry would have been expelled and then they'd both be outcasts. She also thinks he's been lonely for a long time, but, not to worry, he'll have company because he's living in the Orders headquarters. I think she's right in her assumption that Sirius has been lonely. But, she then thinks that loneliness shouldn't be a problem because other Order members will be around. She doesn't see the nuances in personal relationships. It never occurs to her that perhaps Sirius would be less lonely if the people hanging around are people he cares about, and not simply any warm bodies that walk through the door. Hermione has a lack of empathy towards others that I find a little off-putting. Maybe she's simply at that stage in her teen life where she thinks she knows it all. Maybe she's still over-compensating because she's still trying to prove herself in the Wizard world. Or maybe JKR is using her to tell us things we need to know about other characters because it's quick way of getting information to the reader. I'll be watching Hermione in the next book with this in mind. > 2. Harry reads about a potion that creates confusion, recklessness > and hotheadedness. Just when a reader might think "hmmm . . . > Sirius," the text explicitly draws the connection, thereby > undermining the red flag?but is that drawing of attention itself > misdirection? Is Snape (or someone) actually giving Confusing and > Befuddlement Draughts to Sirius, or to Harry himself? Marianne: I know others have postulated that very fact. And that Sirius' mood always seems to be better when Kreacher is nowhere to be found. It seems a bit too obvious for JKR, doesn't it? But, then again, maybe she figured it was time to simply hit us in the face with something, knowing we'd probably not believe it...My head is starting to hurt. > 5. And one to take to OTChatter: If you found the Room of > Requirement, what need would take you there and what would you find > in the room? Answers. I need answers. I'd find the complete versions of Books 6 and 7 waiting for me. Marianne From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed May 26 00:26:28 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 20:26:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? In-Reply-To: <20040524231713.70839.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99447 | From: Miss Melanie [mailto:ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com] | Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 19:17 PM | (Re Sirius) | I see a guy who I believe truly cared for his godson. You know | you can say whatever you want about Sirius but if he's bad then | my God Snape is. I don't care who you are or what you are you | have no reason to treat a child like Snape does. None. [Lee] Seems to be that Snape treats all Gryffindor students with a fair bit of distain and malice. Malfoy and the other Slytherins are never taken into detention, they never lose points with him, etc., but Gryffindor... Like I said, Snape is a complex character, indeed, so, what are his reasons for being so horrible to not just Harry but the Gryffindor kids in general? Could it be that, as an adult, he feels he can wield power over the house from whence his tormentors came? Another stick to add to the fire. :-) Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed May 26 00:43:10 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 20:43:10 -0400 Subject: Don't Believe All You Hear (wasRE: [HPforGrownups] Who Hatched the Basilisk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99448 | From: Steve [mailto:bboy_mn at yahoo.com] | Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 20:51 PM | | Untill the end of the series, I'm putting very little weight into what | most people are saying about Slytherin. [Lee] Good for you! :-) And remember the bad report on Durmstrang...about all the dark wizards that came from that school. Yet, we have Victor Krum who, I believe, really is a good guy. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 02:01:38 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Progression of the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040526020138.97698.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99449 Dave: > I'm even daunted from starting it again, just because I don't > have 27 hours to grind through it again. Now, I know a lot > did and I understand how they did it, but if you are writing a > children's book, you aren't going to do it 1100 pages at a time. Geoff: > On the question of younger children reading the later books, > which was raised in a recent post on this thread, one of the > families in my church is, like me, well into HP. Their youngest > child, a girl of 8, got through OOTP quite safely in a few days > and was able to talk about it quite happily and enjoy the story. I agree. I read the books aloud to my 3 kids - and my oldest sits on long distance from Texas (she is 22) because she says I do the voices the best. My youngest is 10 and he will stand up and act out the action as I read. We plan to re-read SS on his 11th birthday (same age as Harry). Yes, there are words that he has trouble with when he reads it himself, but I help him with them. There are also things that are over his head, but my favorite books are the ones that you discover something new each time you read it, and I see this with the kids as they grow. They will discover new things each time as they get older on grasp more. Will a 10 year old get the same out of it as a 22 year old? No! But that is okay. Moonmyyst From mnaperrone at aol.com Wed May 26 02:26:54 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 02:26:54 -0000 Subject: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99450 Snow wrote (in #99427): > When DD learned about Snape's refusal to further teach Harry, DD > did not pursue it. Could that have been because the lesson that > needed to be taught, was taught? (IMO) Harry was being taught it > just wasn't occlumency. Harry learned exactly what DD wanted him > to know. Harry needed to be put through enough ordeals in an > attempt to teach him restraint and control over his emotions. > > > I don't believe in the "ever so evil" DD but how about the "ever > so manipulative" DD? The end product was Harry's emotions saving > him from being possessed by Voldemort. Would Harry, during the > attempted possession, have felt enough emotion to endure the pain > if he had not previously had several doses of pain to assure the > strongest emotional result? > This time, after enduring a substantial amount of emotional ordeals, > Harry is much stronger and endured the test. Ally: That's an interesting theory. I did suspect occlumency was a set up by DD, but I was thinking that he wanted Snape and Harry to see each other's memories and learn that they had some things in common. In my mind, it was building to the two of them working together in the way that DD has emphasized is necessary for success. But I think I might like your theory better (although I suppose that ours aren't necessarily mutually exclusive). But what did Harry learn - that his father was less than perfect? I'm not sure I see the connection between this lesson and his ability to fight off V in the end. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed May 26 04:35:20 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 04:35:20 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Mommy_can=92t_protect_you_forever?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99451 Neri: See above why I think the protection was not specific to LV. One might say that this question doesn't have any importance now, if we agree that Lily's protection doesn't work anymore anyway. However, there is one scenario in which this question can be very important: if LV believes he bought himself protection from anybody with Harry's blood, but it actually doesn't work, LV might take a hit when he least expects to. vmonte responds: I think the problem in Voldemort's thinking is that he never thinks things through, and he always underestimates people. He thinks that he is only receiving the blood protection that Lily gave Harry, but what if Harry's father gave him another kind of protection; one that we don't know anything about yet. Or better yet, what if Harry has his own kind of power (a power that Voldemort fears), and this power is now also coursing through LV's veins. The books are always comparing Harry with Lily, James, and Tom Riddle. What if Harry is more than the sum of his parents and scar traits. Why wouldn't Harry have his own traits and talents? I think that LV's downfall will be that he cannot think outside-of- the-box. To LV Harry is what Lily gave him. This also applies to the other characters in the book who see Harry as being like James or Lily, or TR, and not as an individual who is greater than the sum of his parts. From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed May 26 03:13:03 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 23:13:03 -0400 Subject: Rabastan Lestrange (Was:Re: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or both) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99452 | > Carol: | He's (Rastaban)also present in the battle of the DoM and is | now presumably back in Azkaban with his brother and sister-in-law. | | Mandy here: | Just a little point. I'm sure this was a typo as Carol is usually | flawless with her information in her posts. | | Bellatirx hasn't gone back to Azkaban she was the only one to escape | with LV at the end of OopT. So Rastaban is likley to be in Azkaban | with just his brother for company this time. [Lee] Are you sure, Mandy? I know she got crunched by the stone witch from the Fountain of Magical Brethren, but I don't think she escaped. Cheers, Lee (Still trying to kill the migraine) :-( Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From thekrenz at yahoo.com Wed May 26 03:38:41 2004 From: thekrenz at yahoo.com (thekrenz) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 03:38:41 -0000 Subject: Progression of the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99453 Geoff: > On the question of younger children reading the later books, > which was raised in a recent post on this thread, one of the > families in my church is, like me, well into HP. Their youngest > child, a girl of 8, got through OOTP quite safely in a few days > and was able to talk about it quite happily and enjoy the story. I began reading the entire series to my children (7 and 10) about 3 months ago. The oldest tried reading them herself, but *gasp* doesn't really enjoy reading very much. I, on the other hand can't read enough, so I used reading TO my kids as an excuse to read the HP books yet again. The are truly enjoying the stories and seem to have little if any trouble following the complexites as Harry and his world grow and mature. We are now about 1/3 into OotP and the youngest is anticipating some of the plot line. (How cool is that!) I suppose what I am saying is, don't underestimate the comprehension skills of children. Cyndi (This is my first post, so don't be too hard on me. Please.) From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 02:09:29 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: _Mommy_can?t_protect_you_forever In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040526020929.95053.qmail@web50104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99454 Neri wrote: > One key for finding the identity of this power might be asking: How did Harry get it? Lily's protection took no less than sacrificing her life. This suggests that Harry must have done some very powerful things to acquire his new power. What did he do that can fit this bill? Here are some things that Harry had done: 1. He put his life on the line to prevent LV coming to power in SS/PS. 2. He saved Ginny's life in CoS, again risking his life and preventing LV's rise to power. 3. He let Wormtail live in PoA 4. He took Cedric's body home in GoF, again risking his life for it. 5. He went to rescue Sirius in OotP The last one is also given as an effect: "that power took you to save Sirius tonight", but it does not mean that it couldn't be also a cause. It means, however, that Harry had at least some of his power before the DoM battle. And things that other people had done for Harry: 6. Ron sacrificed himself on the chess board in SS/PS for Harry 7. Sirius gave his life to save Harry in OotP 2, 5, 6, and 7 can be ascribed to Love. The others cannot. Therefore I think it is not exactly love. >>> Two words come to mind when reading your list: Compassion Sacrifice Have not thought all the way through on this one. I agree that love is not what is behind the door. Moonmyyst From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 05:59:48 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 05:59:48 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99455 Alla wrote: > I don't usually have many positive things to say about Snape's > treatment of Harry and I agree with Melanie - you don't belittle a > child about his dead father, ever. But, when Snape was saying these > horrible things in PoA, I felt the despair beyond the insults. I > thought that Snape was upset by James and Lily death and did not want > Harry to die. > > I don't know if I feel like that after OoP, though. Carol responds: I know you think that Snape should not have stopped giving Harry occlumency lessons. But even if you're right (and I've already expressed my views on that subject), surely that mistake was compensated for by Snape's actions later in the book. It was Snape who alerted both the Order and Dumbledore that Harry was in danger. If it weren't for Snape, Harry and his friends would almost certainly be dead. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 06:03:15 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 06:03:15 -0000 Subject: The Picture (dramatic sound) - longish. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99456 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lisa Croke" wrote: > Moonmyyst wrote: > Is it my imagination, but wasn't the ghost who denied Nick from > riding in the Headless Hunt a Podmore? (just a random thought) > > > Lisa responded: > No, it wasn't your imagination at all. Page 95 of the UK edition of > CoS, ending the letter to Nearly-Headless Nick about being rejected > from the headless hunt:- "It is with the greatest regret, > therefore, that I must inform you that you do not fulfil our > requirements. With very best wishes, Sir Patrick Delaney-PODMORE." > Personally, I prefer Nick's name for him. Sir Properly Decapitated- > Podmore. lol. > > Carol: We had a thread on this topic quite recently. It shouldn't be hard to find, even with our Bloody Baron of a search engine. We didn't come to any earth-shaking conclusions, but you might want to see what has already been said on the topic. Carol From lupinesque at yahoo.com Wed May 26 06:07:55 2004 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 06:07:55 -0000 Subject: Unlikeable Hermione wasRe: Chapter 18: Dumbledore's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99457 Luckie wrote: > But back to my point - how often have we known Hermione to > be wrong? OK, significantly wrong? Everyone was wrong about Snape in > SS/PS, but in CoS Hermione figured out the Basilisk and the pipes. > In PoA she knew Lupin was a werewolf when no one else did. And she > WAS correct that Sirius and Harry's rashness would lead to danger. > Harry does have a helping-people-thing. That's actually what bothers me about Hermione's Cassandra role in OP. Having a character who clearly and correctly predicts what will happen and why is a weak device, IMO. Hermione is right: Sirius is reckless; Harry is liable to be taken in by Voldemort, especially if his savior complex is activated. None of this makes Hermione a problematic person, but it does make her role in the story highly irritating (to me--YMMV). So it isn't Hermione I'm getting annoyed with, it's JKR. Amy Z - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree which stood alone in the middle of the grounds. --HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 06:19:23 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 06:19:23 -0000 Subject: Prank revisited. WAS: Harry begins to act like someone I know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99458 Alla wrote: And, as I said there are possible understandable reasons of why Sirius got very angry at Snape. Possible recruitment of Regulus is one of them. Carol: Whatever reason Sirius had for choosing that moment to send Severus into grave danger, I don't think it had anything to do with recruiting Regulus to the Death Eaters. Severus himself was only fifteen, and judging from his obsessive reexamination of the DADA exam after he had turned in his answers, his mind was on his OWLS, not on joining the ranks of the Dark Lord or recruiting others to do so. It's most unlikely that he was a Death Eater at that early age. (IMO, he didn't join till he was out of school, but there's no canon to prove that.) And Regulus was even younger, about twelve IIRC--too young to be a Death Eater even if he wanted to be. And Sirius and Regulus weren't close, in any case. Sirius's reaction to his brother's death (OoP, "Noble and Most ancient House of Black") appears to be that the "idiot" got exactly what he deserved. Carol From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Wed May 26 06:26:02 2004 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 06:26:02 -0000 Subject: Lesson Harry learned from Occ.Re: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99459 > Ally: > >But what did Harry learn - that his father was less than perfect? >I'm not sure I see the connection between this lesson and his >ability to fight off V in the end. HedwigsTalons replies: Maybe Harry needed to learn that people aren't always what they seem to be. James wasn't always a great guy, nor was Sirius. Perhaps THIS insight will help to bridge the animosity between himself and Snape; and might possibly help him in the final showdown with V. (the hidden Tom Riddle within?) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed May 26 06:26:02 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 06:26:02 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99460 Alla wrote: Neri, for someone who is not the fan of the character, you are doing a great job of defending the said character, IMO. Yes, I would not hesitate either if I had to choose who I want to cover my flank, but because of the only reason that I am still a bit afraid that Snape may switch sides. I have no doubt that Snape can be just as loyal as Sirius was , the problem is we still don't know where his true loyalties lie. Neri: Thanks Alla :-) but I think you misunderstood me a bit. I don't have any problems with Snape's loyalty. I actually believe he is loyal to DD. I think DD accurately estimated Snape (but a bit too late, unfortunately) when he said: "I trust Severus Snape. But I forgot ? another old man's mistake ? that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father ? I was wrong." My problem with Snape is exactly that. He can't overcome his feelings, his "issues". Even when he knows that Harry learning occlumency can make the difference between losing the war and winning it. Where I served, Snape's behavior would have earned him an immediate court martial. He is a commander who practically aborted his mission, a most critical mission, because the troopers under his command (or actually his single trooper) where unruly and hurt his feelings. In a war, this is just not an acceptable excuse. If your troopers are unruly, you take care of it. By being brutal or by being nicer, whatever works. We don't care how you achieve it, but you don't abort the mission that was entrusted to you. You just don't. People's life depend on you completing your damn mission. Sirius also is known to let his feelings get the better of him sometimes, but never on the front under fire. Anyone with combat experience knows there`s only one way to survive and win in a war: everyone gives the maximum to the others, no one quits. When the bullets whistle, you don't have "issues". You give everything, including your life, to the trooper near you, even if you hate his guts. Because this is the only way to ensure that he'll do the same for you (even if he hates YOUR guts). And if anybody in your unit can't do this to anybody else in the unit, you've already lost the battle. This is something that the Sirius type, or perhaps I should say the Gryffindor type, knows without explanations. Read again the behavior of the Gryffindors (and Luna) during the DoM battle, and you'll get a good example. All for one and one for all. This is not just a nice slogan from a romantic adventure book. On the front, this is the only way to work together and survive as a unit. Snape aborting his mission is, I suspect, typical Slytherin behavior. He slithered away from responsibility. In the front you quickly learn to recognize the Slytherin type. If you get a Slytherin to your unit, you transfer him to a back unit, or anywhere where other people don't depend on him, before he corrupts all the others. Because once mistrust creeps into your unit, once people start having the tiniest doubt if the guy next to them would do anything for them, you're all in big trouble. This is also the reason why closing Sirius in 12GP for a whole year was such a terrible punishment for him. It is not (as some group members think) because he liked to take chances. It was because for a soldier like Sirius, staying safe in HQ while seeing his fellow soldiers risking their life each day, it is something just not done. It is practically the worst thing he could have done in his own eyes. He felt like he was deserting them, quitting on them, each single day again. Asking Sirius to stay behind while Lupin, Moody, Kingsley and Tonks went to the DoM was absurd. There was just no way in the world he'd let the four of them take on ten DEs while he's waiting for DD in HQ, even if it wasn't Harry, Ron and Hermione in there. Back to Snape, he might be a great double agent. Perhaps the same properties that makes him a terrible soldier and commander also makes him a great double agent. But if DD has any sense, he mustn't put Snape in a position where other troopers should depend on him and trust him. It just won't work. It is not a question of loyalty, it's a question of trust. I hope I've managed to make the difference clear. Neri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 06:49:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 06:49:52 -0000 Subject: Snape and Petunia, a couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99461 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > sarahmint at y... said: > > Aunt Petunia acts just like Snape. > Could they have had an affair thirty years ago? (Seems like a soap > opera doesn't it?) > > Lady Macbeth replied: > > I don't know about an affair thirty years ago, but I'm a fan of them as a couple. > > -Lady Macbeth Carol: If you mean thirty years ago as of OoP, Snape would have been about seven and Petunia, I'm guessing, not much older, possibly ten. Carol, who can't imagine Snape even acknowledging the existence of a Muggle From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 06:52:09 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 06:52:09 -0000 Subject: Assyrians still exist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99462 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > Sea Change replies: > > > > > It's also possible that Uncle Algie is a Great Uncle Algie, and was > > around pre-WW1. Many muslim empires had semi-autonomous regions > with > > names that we either recognize, or which were called by that name by > > our diplomats. The Mimbulus Mimbletonia Neville has could just be a > > cutting or a meristem of the original plant. > > > Potioncat: > I really like the idea that Uncle Algie is Great Uncle Algie. We > haven't seen much evidence of older relatives, but this would fit > perfectly. He doesn't sound like he would be a brother to either of > Neville's parents, but he could be Gran's brother or Grandfather > Longbottom's brother. (To contradict myself, I can see Gred or Forge > dropping one of Ron's kids out the window to see if he bounces!) > Potioncat Carol: IIRC, he's referred to as Great Uncle Algie in the story about Neville being dropped out the window and bouncing down the hill. I'm guessing that he's Gran's slightly dotty brother. Carol From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 06:58:36 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 23:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths In-Reply-To: <1085544567.6677.49558.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040526065836.9954.qmail@web50309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99463 Pippin: Greatness isn't synonymous with goodness, that's for sure. Justine: It certainly can be, though. My last post (98769) went through the different synonyms and the nouns for which the adjective "great" has been used. I think, in the context of Jo's quote about Remus, greatness *does* seem to equal goodness. When Ollivander talks of great things, he also uses the adjective "terrible," and he's talking about an extremely evil wizard. When the Sorting Hat speaks of greatness, he's talking about placing Harry in Slytherin, and that house as a rather terrible connotation as well, doesn't it? When she uses the word for Remus, she's also calling him a wonderful teacher and a nice man. I'm too tired to coherently type what I'm thinking, so I'll direct you to Renee (99421, in which my name is mentioned... that made me smile!). She is, of course, not the only one I agree with, but her post sums up my thinking at the moment. Here's a quote: If you had to choose one teacher from your books to teach your child, who would it be and why? A. It would be Professor Lupin, because he is kind, clever, and gives very interesting lessons. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0200-scholastic-chat.htm Justine: There's the word "kind." That's even better than great, because it has no negative connotations, and better than nice, because it strongly implies there's positive emotion behind it. Here's one more: Professor Lupin, who appears in the third book, is one of my favourite characters. He?s a damaged person, literally and metaphorically. I think it?s important for children to know that adults, too, have their problems, that they struggle. His being a werewolf is a metaphor for people?s reactions to illness and disability. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2002/1102-fraser-scotsman.htmlJustine: Remus is the wizarding world's version of a child who has been given a blood transfusion and has contracted AIDS, especially when thinking of the 80s when so many were afraid to even be in a room with someone who had it. Wouldn't turning Remus into a traitor equal telling these children that such reactions are acceptable and even right? Cheers, Justine --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 26 07:01:31 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 07:01:31 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99464 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: Lee: > I see what you're saying, Geoff, and also see where you're coming from. :-) > > Let's say Snape gave Draco the spell...I can buy that. As far as the > enjoyment factor displayed by Snape, I'm gonna put a wiggle in here and say > that perhaps Snape was conflicted; part of him was, indeed, enjoying the > sight of the famous and (dare I say) lauded Harry Potter in a most dangerous > position. There might also be a part of Snape that's tickled proud of Draco > for handling such a spell. But, there's that part that, for all his seeming > hatred of Harry, can't allow the snake to really _do_ anything to him. Geoff: I see what you're saying and where you're coming from. However, although it would seem that Snape is trying to protect Harry, he is doing it in a rather disgruntled manner. '"Yes.." said Dumbledore dreamily, "Funny, the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt... I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father quits. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace..."' (PS "The Man with Two Faces" p.217 UK edition) In COS, Snape probably feels that he has repaid the debt but still needs to keep an eye on Harry but still has a need to twist the knife in the wound - look at his snide comments to Harry in the later books. It's high time he learned to get this grudge out of his system; it's affecting his whole outlook on life. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed May 26 07:09:49 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 07:09:49 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99465 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > If I had to choose who I want to cover my flank, Sirius or > > Snape, I wouldn't hesitate even a single second deciding. > > Neri > > > Neri, for someone who is not the fan of the character, you are doing > a great job of defending the said character, IMO. > > Yes, I would not hesitate either if I had to choose who I want to > cover my flank, but because of the only reason that I am still a bit > afraid that Snape may switch sides. > > I have no doubt that Snape can be just as loyal as Sirius was , the > problem is we still don't know where his true loyalties lie. > Alla It's all about motivations. If you know what's driving someone you can assess their reliabilty in a given situation, particularly in a low intensity war such as the one JKR has presented us with. We're very aware that this isn't a conflict between professional armies; highly trained, strictly disciplined and taking a series of tactical objectives after careful planning. Generally, it's a series of individual actions with the occasional larger skirmish thrown in for fun. It's a conflict of agents, double-cross and assassins. Would I trust Snape? It depends. Trust him to fight Voldy - yes. But if he were asked to say, take on Malfoy - no. And IMO that's a very good reason why he shouldn't get involved in something like the fight at the Ministry. He has, or seems to have, a reason for opposing Voldy (I've posted many times on what I think the 'why' of this is), but it's likely that it's personal . He's working to the principle that "My enemy's enemy is my friend". His loyalty is limited and conditional and his aims may not be entirely congruent with those of the Order. DD gives the impression that he understands what Snape's about and why he is doing what he is. No-one else seems to. Nice he ain't. Compelling he is. I do love nasty characters in fiction. In a different way Sirius is a bit of a problem. He has so many faults he could be a seismologists benefit. Does this matter? Are his faults a sign that he can't be trusted or an illustration that even the flawed can be true to an ideal? You pays your money and you makes your choice. I've made mine and nailed my colours to the mast. If I'm wrong, so what? Until all is revealed I'll have a lot of fun defending my position. This is what makes the books so interesting. There are only a limited number of cardboard cut-out characters that you can slap a label on and say with certainty "Good" or "Bad". Unfortunately such ambiguity sits uncomfortably with some, they'd be happier with a little more predictive certainty. Not me. I love it! The ESE!Sirius/Nasty!Snape brouhaha is harmless fun for the most part; partisan posters cheering on their favourite and rubbishing the other. Highly entertaining; anyone who thinks it matters should have a reality check. For sure the ins and outs of Snape will eventually be revealed - I can hardly wait. Interestingly, in the Web Chat in March JKR said that'll we'll be learning more about Sirius in the future books. So his tale is not yet complete. Hope it doesn't happen too soon, it would lower my enjoyment index no matter which of the possible resolutions it turned out to be. Kneasy From sunnylove0 at aol.com Wed May 26 09:15:43 2004 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 05:15:43 EDT Subject: What is with the "Prank" ? Message-ID: <139.2f8702bb.2de5ba3f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99466 The recent discussion of the prank has got me thinking about the whole business..and into some really disturbing thoughts...now I know this is a sensitive topic around here, so bear with me. Did Snape figure out that Lupin was a werewolf before the prank? It's not exactly cold fusion, you know..... POA chap. 17 " He'll be delighted," said Lupin coolly. " He assigned that essay hoping someone would realize what my symptoms meant...Did you check the lunar chart and realize I was always ill at the full moon? Or did you realize that the boggart changed into the moon when it saw me?" POA chap. 18 " Now my three friends could hardly fail to notice that I disappeared once a month. I made up all sorts of stories..." ".....anyway Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform..." OOP chap. 28 " Did you like question ten, Moony?" asked Sirius as they emerged into the entrance hall. " Loved it." said Lupin briskly. " Give five signs that identify the werewolf. Excellent question." " D'you think you managed to get all the signs?" said James in mock concern. " Think I did." said Lupin seriously as they joined the crowd thronging around the front doors eager to get out into the sunlit grounds. " One: He's sitting on my chair. Two: He's wearing my clothes. Three: His name's Remus Lupin.." The more I think about it.... DADA, as evidenced by his absorption in his OWL paper and his application to teach it year after year is obviously one of Snape's favorite subjects, or at least one he takes seriously. Remus Lupin, the best friend of James Potter and Sirius Black, the one who sits by and ignores them while they torture Snape, disappears once a month (and always during the full moon) led away by the nurse, and not to the hospital wing but across the grounds. MWPP, even Lupin, talk about it openly when it's possible for anyone to hear them... I mean, come on! JKR has given Snape a reputation for putting two and two together, and he has plenty of motive in this case. But why would he have fallen for Sirius's bait if he knew? Well.... 1) Snape is a emotional kid (note the nickname " Snivellus" ) in a situation where no one seems to give a damn about him. ( Except Lily, who is angry at James, and possibly Dumbledore, who has 249-999 other students to worry about, though I think he might have done something about it sometime ( does anyone wonder why Snape trusts Dumbledore instead of vice versa? I'd like to know) At home, He comes from a family where at least verbal and possibly physical domestic violence is present, and sits alone in his bedroom with the flies for company. At school, he is unpopular, bullied, can't fly, and his closest reputed "friends" are Bellatrix Black and her future DE gang....what emotional support they must have given him.... Snape is not taking care of himself, he's expecting to be attacked at any moment....and speaking from personal experience, I've been where it's hell at school and hell at home, and, what I'm trying to say is, I would not be surprised if suicide was not on his mind even before the prank....and even if it hadn't got to that point yet...this is the boy who grew up to spy on Voldemort, for whatever reason, and if he had to take a lethal risk to get the torment to stop, or just out of revenge, I wouldn't put it past him.... And Sirius walks up to him and says, "If you want to know, just prod the knot on the Whomping Willow." In front of witnesses, probably. ( James heard about it, not heard it. From who? ) If Snape dies under that tree or comes back to say what he saw and who sent him to see it, Sirius and Lupin, and he believes James was responsible too, will get what he believes what they deserve for at least five years of hell. Expulsion. But fate or Murphy's Law or whatever intervenes. James saves his life, and it gets hushed up. And Snape becomes a DE, and you know the rest. Now for heaven's sake, someone prove me wrong. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rmmiller at gci.net Wed May 26 06:57:30 2004 From: rmmiller at gci.net (rmmiller95) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 06:57:30 -0000 Subject: Progression of the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99467 Jospehine wrote: > Each book has since become not only darker, but more mature, > dealing with "grown up" issues. I know that JK has progressed as a > writer, but is she intending the books to grow with her *original* > fans. > But what would be interesting to monitor > would be if JK continues to write more mature topics, will she > lose her younger audience? I personally cannot see an average 10 > year old now enjoying much of GOF or OOTP, nevermind understanding > its complexities. Will these younger readers bypass Harry > Potter for another author? How 'grown up' can she get before the > books are too adult for children, and will she make Book 6 > inaccessible for them? rmmiller95: I have a 7 year old and she has listened to all five books and understands them just fine. She can't wait for the next one to come out. I read somewhere that JKR is writing as Harry is growing up so the syles will grow with him. Maybe if your grandaughter could use the book tapes she would have an easier time with it. I know that the reading is to hard for my seven soon to be eight year old. I don't post much so sorry if it isn't done well. From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed May 26 07:33:58 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 03:33:58 -0400 Subject: Truly Human (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius vs. Snape) In-Reply-To: <000801c44286$e8ddfe10$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99468 | From: Kathryn Cawte [mailto:kcawte at ntlworld.com] | Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 14:34 PM | Surely I'm not the only person here who is capable of considering them | *both* as being far from 'perfect' (but no-one's perfect and they | both seem | to have a heap load of good reasons for why they act the way they do, | without trying to excuse the way they act because they're both capable of | being quite spiteful and *incredibly* childish at times) and | *still* adores | them both absolutely (to the point where I refuse to get too | deeply involved | in this thread because it's doing dangerous things to my blood | pressure and | my ability to be polite to people). [Lee] Ah--don't let it get yr pressure up. :-) Look, one of the beauties of the books is that every single character is flawed. And why is that? Because they are all--mostly all--human. As long as humans exist, there will be flaws. No matter who you meet, no matter how much you might love someone, that person is going to do things that will irk you, seem totally out of character, make really big mistakes, etc., but you love them anyway. I adore my husband; this doesn't mean there aren't times I might want to throttle him for acting really stupid about something. But what I need to remember is that what seems stupid, irrational, off-the-wall to me is not the same for him. Easier said than done, true? :-) Now, back to Sirius and Snape and the rest of the gang: there are things they will do and say that will seem irrational to one of the other characters, but to the one doing it, that one feels he/she has a really good reason for the action or words. When you get characters that are always perfect, always right, always stable, the interaction is always oh-so-predictable. But the most lovable thing about the Potterverse is that there isn't one flawless character which makes the interactions and ships so _unpredictable_ and interesting. Smile...the Daily Prophet is watching... :-) Cheers, Lee :-) (Who loves your spelling of "Kathryn") Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed May 26 07:54:01 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 03:54:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 18: Dumbledore's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99469 | From: Steve [mailto:bboy_mn at yahoo.com] | Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 15:14 PM | | > Amy Z ends with: | : | > 5. And one to take to OTChatter: If you found the Room of | > Requirement, what need would take you there and what would you find | > in the room? | > | > | > Amy Z | > | | bboy_mn: | | How about a box full of winning lottery tickets? Heaven knows I could | use the money. [Lee] Can't we all use the money...but then, just go for galleons! Boxes and boxes of galleons. But me...I want chocolate! Boxes and boxes of the deepest, darkest chocolate. :-) Hmm--see you at Honeydukes. :-) Lee Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 26 09:43:14 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:43:14 -0000 Subject: Lily (wasPrank revisited.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99470 Ivogun wrote: << Snape is not a magical weakling. I also think that Lily knew that James wouldn't continue his behavior after being chastised by her. There was little need for her to stay around and take abuse from Snape, who didn't need or wish for much help from her. She broke up the incident and I think that all she needed to do to put a stop to it. I find little evidence to suggest that James and Sirius were true bullies like Dudley. True bullies like to show their power by seeking out weaker victims to attack. Dudley and his gang hang around the school yard just looking for weaker kids. Anyone will do. (Kind of how Snape manages his classroom.) With James and Snape the confrontation seems to be more personal and all the participants seem to be are more equal in power. I expect that there were a whole series of escalating incidents where the losers and winners rotated. Just like Harry's and Draco's confrontations have played out. >> Sigune replies: No, Snape certainly isn't a 'magical weakling', and I have little doubt that he could hold his own ground against either James or Sirius. But the point is (I have elaborated on this in post #99278) that they take him on *together*, which, as far as I am concerned, makes them 'true bullies'indeed, and not so very different from Dudley and his gang. I don't know what it is with bullies, but they tend to be a cowardly lot who, even if they are strong enough to pick on someone by themselves, will still make sure they are surrounded with supporters. As I said in the post mentioned, no matter how quick and strong Snape is, he cannot possibly win against *two* wizards of his stature in a situation like this (only knights of the Round Table like Gawain and Lancelot can fight whole armies on their own, it seems; even Cuchulain of Ulster had to ask his enemies to come to him one by one); besides, two more Marauders are waiting in the background. I think there is a world of difference between two young wizards, or any two schoolchildren, having a duel/fight in a corridor (the very word 'duel' implying that there are only two of you), and several people banding together against one. The first is called an argument; the second is called bullying. But then I am a little touchy on the subject. What Snape does in his classroom is equally reprehensible, but different: abuse of authority. Yours severely, Sigune From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed May 26 10:47:13 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:47:13 -0000 Subject: What is with the "Prank" ? In-Reply-To: <139.2f8702bb.2de5ba3f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99471 Amber wrote: OOP chap. 28 " Did you like question ten, Moony?" asked Sirius as they emerged into the entrance hall. " Loved it." said Lupin briskly. " Give five signs that identify the werewolf. Excellent question." " D'you think you managed to get all the signs?" said James in mock concern. " Think I did." said Lupin seriously as they joined the crowd thronging around the front doors eager to get out into the sunlit grounds. " One: He's sitting on my chair. Two: He's wearing my clothes. Three: His name's Remus Lupin.." vmonte responds: I agree with you. If Hermione was able to figure out what Lupin was, Snape would have also pieced the clues together. vmonte From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Wed May 26 10:56:24 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 5:56:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius vs. Snape Message-ID: <20040526105624.YZLE29216.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99472 Back to Snape, he might be a great double agent. Perhaps the same properties that makes him a terrible soldier and commander also makes him a great double agent. But if DD has any sense, he mustn't put Snape in a position where other troopers should depend on him and trust him. It just won't work. It is not a question of loyalty, it's a question of trust. I hope I've managed to make the difference clear. Silverhtorne Great comparison, Neri, and I have to agree with the analysis as far as 'troops' go. Although, if I may interject here? Snape...is a spy. Not a soldier. Huge difference--it really is. Soldiers aren't really worried about having to sneak around anything (except the guys on the other side of the feild with the grenade launcher). Every move Snape has to do is a *sneak*, a misidrection, and at least partially a lie. And, although those qualities may be associated with Slytherin--in this case, it's a convienient comparison. Snape *Has* to sneak--he goes out in the open, the *main* mission (which ultimately is not Harry) *he* has been given is screwed. His main mission--to spy on the DE. Rather hard to do when there's proof laying around that you are not exactly the person you're claiming to be (and in Snape's case, that would be a disagreeable git who 'belongs' to the DE). There is a world of difference in the mind set, there really is--but that still does no make Snape any 'less' of a being--it makes him different. As for abandoning the lessons--honestly, I think Snape came to the realization (while cleaning up his cockroaches), that it just was *not* going to work--Potter presses too many of his buttons, and he can't seem to stop pressing buttons right back...so...even in the military, I'm sure there's some allowances for people to appeal to the higher ranks and go 'Hey, I know this guy needs this, I know I'm supposed to do it, but if you leave us in a cage together, we'll kill each other and nothing will get done'. And even if that is not the case--well, Civilians *do* have that set up, and the smart ones *will* go and tell their higher ups there's a problem and another solution needs to be found... Anyone ever consided that maybe he suggested to Dumbledore that maybe it was just to hot? And DD agreed? Incidently, although the arguement is good for Sirius as to who folks would like beside them in a battle zone--honestly, and truly, I would choose Snape over Sirius--simply because since they both let their emotions get the better of them--Snape does it less often, and with *one* specific person more or less. So I already know what will set the guy off--I'd just keep his ass away from it in the battle feild if I could. Sirius....keeps finding new things to go off on. IMHO both of them would risk their necks for their friends/allies when the brass tacks were down--Sirius is just eaiser to pinpoint that way... Ultimately though--I would rather go it alone than have either at my back--one is too much the spy--the other too reactionary to depend on on the battlefield. Although it's great in the movies when the soldier goes against his orders to 'save the day'--nine times out of ten in RL it will go badly...very badly...if you do that. And Sirius has a nasty habit of doing *exactly* that (not staying put when told to, not taking advice, reacting emotionally to situations). Both would need a lot of Basic training and control pounded into them before I would *really* trust either of their squirrelly asses...;) Anne/Silverthorne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 26 10:57:27 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:57:27 -0000 Subject: Assyrians still exist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol: > IIRC, he's referred to as Great Uncle Algie in the story about Neville > being dropped out the window and bouncing down the hill. I'm guessing > that he's Gran's slightly dotty brother. Geoff: You're right, he is. "My great-uncle Algie kept trying to catch me off my guard and force some magic out of me - he pushed me off the end of Blakpool pier once, Inearly drowned - but nothing happened until I was eight. great- uncle Algie came round for tea and he was hanging me out of an upstairs window by the ankles when my great-auntie Enid offered him a meringue and he accidentally let go." (PS "The Sorting Hat" p.93 UK edition) Hm. I wonder whether Enid was put up to it by somebody? Make an interesting plea in a court of law if it had gone wrong.. "I was offered a meringue and, in a moment of weakness, I let go, M'lud." :-) From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 26 11:26:52 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:26:52 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat (Was: The permanent problem with Slytherin House) In-Reply-To: <003101c442a8$5b1a3680$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99474 Silverthorne wrote: > > 'Said Slytherin, "We'll just teach those whose ancestry is purest... > > For instance, Slytherin > > Took only pure-blood wizards > > Of great cunning, just like him...' > > > > *Small rant and a bit of disillusionment* > > Now that I've had *that* rude little awakening...I have to say that I > honestly *do* believe JKR is shooting herself in the foot--if we're to > believe that this *is* one of the absolute criteria the Hat is using for > Slytherin...that means she really *has* set up the House, as a whole, to be > 'evil'...no wonder she doesn't understand fans identifyng with it-- they > bought into her whole 'Looks aren't everything' thing and applied it even to > the House that it should not be applied to, if we're following the hats > (her) rules. Potioncat: Wait, hold on! OK, Salazar and Lucius are pureblood bigots. But the Weasley's are purebloods and they aren't bigots. And I do think Percy would have done well in Slytherin. Being pureblood doesn't make you "evil." The hat says cunning purebloods, not cunning pureblood bigots...and we know the hat doesn't always follow the pureblood rule. Everything Jo's written and said makes Slytherin look evil. But it goes against what she seems to believe in general about good and evil and choices. Who, other than Harry, was given a choice? And if you look at Sirius (this is difficult, because the hat doesn't always make sense) Was he in Gryffindor because he was "good" or because he was brave but wasn't cunning or ambitious? (Well, actually, he was cunning, to trick Severus into the tunnel.) OK, this paragraph isn't the strongest of arguments...But you get my point. Potioncat...who wonders how she became a Slytherin defender? From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Wed May 26 11:33:07 2004 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 04:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040526113307.36910.qmail@web12206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99475 --- nkafkafi wrote: > Alla wrote: > I have no doubt that Snape can be just as loyal as > Sirius was , the > problem is we still don't know where his true > loyalties lie. > > Neri: I don't > have any problems with Snape's loyalty. I actually > believe he is > loyal to DD. I think DD accurately estimated Snape > (but a bit too > late, unfortunately) when he said: "I trust Severus > Snape. But I > forgot another old man's mistake that some > wounds run too deep > for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could > overcome his > feelings about your father I was wrong." > > My problem with Snape is exactly that. He can't > overcome his > feelings, his "issues". Even when he knows that > Harry learning > occlumency can make the difference between losing > the war and winning > it. *snip* Chris: I agree with Snape not getting over his issues. However, I think he has not had the time to deal or ability with those issues. We know for some time before the end of the first war that Snape defected and became a spy. Before that, there had be some time that he felt something was wrong with what he was doing and had to hide it (or die). So for approx 16-17 (or more) years, Snape has had 2 personalities he had to maintain. It would be rather hard to develop each personality without giving one or the other away. Remaining mean and bitter was probabliy easer. [I'm assuming he is different away from the view of the general public, Harry included] Beside, most people who hang onto 2 personalities that long are often locked away with nice meds. Snape maybe just a little crazy. Being a teacher, and a realitively young one at that, teaching student that knew him as a student leaves little time for self improvement. One of my closest friends is a teacher of high school. Every so often, she digresses into a teenage fit even though she is ten years older than the oldest student. Humans are social creatures and take their personalities from those around them. [I'm assuming Snape is human here, even though I want him to be part-vampire] Snape is always around the school and it is infered that when he is not, he is with Malfoy or DEs (from conversation between Sirius & Harry in OooP). Children or mass murderers, not a great choice for what you would like to develop yourself as. $0.02 Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 26 11:41:33 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:41:33 -0000 Subject: Progression of the books In-Reply-To: <75445574.20040525175615@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Tuesday, May 25, 2004, 3:27:50 AM, Jospehine wrote: > > > But what would be interesting to monitor > > would be if JK continues to write more mature topics, will she lose > > her younger audience? Susanne wrote: > Well, she might, but she is also losing some of her audience > by taking longer between the new installments. > Potioncat: There are two time frames. My oldest became intersted in Harry Potter when he was about 10 or 11. The same age as Harry was. Now he's 15..the same age as Harry. If Harry had stayed 11, my son would have long forgotten him. Once the books are written and the story told, future kids will pick them up and grow with them too. I also think these are books that kids will come back to later on and enjoy on a different level. Potioncat From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Wed May 26 12:30:17 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 7:30:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Sorting Hat (Was: The permanent problem with Slytherin House) Message-ID: <20040526123017.MFPU9273.out002.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99477 Potioncat: Wait, hold on! OK, Salazar and Lucius are pureblood bigots. But the Weasley's are purebloods and they aren't bigots. And I do think Percy would have done well in Slytherin. Being pureblood doesn't make you "evil." The hat says cunning purebloods, not cunning pureblood bigots...and we know the hat doesn't always follow the pureblood rule. Silverthorne: No, it doesn't, but since the subject IIRC, was that there was canon in the Sorting Hat song to support the idea that Salazar *was* a bigot (and therefor the House probably was too, since that was a require,ment--being pure blooded, I mean), that's what set me off--it's very easy to read it that way, and with all the other 'clues' JKR throws around about the memebrs of Slyth house on the whole being unsavory, this little bit that I had forgotten sort of knocked me on my side. I no more believe now that all Slyths are evil than I did *before* I found the quotes for SSS's question--but Damn, JKR is making it very hard to believe that that isn't what she's getting at...and quite frankly, it torques me a bit because she's already pulled the distraction and false info bit so many times on so many other things. For once, the straight forward, 'No, all Slyths are not evil, even though Salazar *preferred* Pure Blooded (and clever, ambitious, cunning) students...' would have been much nicer. Not everything in a well-written mystery novel needs to be or should be mutable right up to the last minute... Potioncat: Everything Jo's written and said makes Slytherin look evil. But it goes against what she seems to believe in general about good and evil and choices. Who, other than Harry, was given a choice? And if you look at Sirius (this is difficult, because the hat doesn't always make sense) Was he in Gryffindor because he was "good" or because he was brave but wasn't cunning or ambitious? (Well, actually, he was cunning, to trick Severus into the tunnel.) OK, this paragraph isn't the strongest of arguments...But you get my point. Silverthorne: Yes, I do get the point--I was simply reacting to the very strong possibility that JKR presented for the case against the House and everyone in it thanks to that song and all the rumors and comments made by other characters...it's one thing to throw a little ambiguity in, but she's all but screaming "They Have no choice but to be evil!!" (or at least bigoted against those not of pure-blood ancestry). Although being Pure Blooded is no more 'bad' than being mixed, this insistance on it is bad--both for the gene pool, and for anyone whose brought up to believe in it--its another bit of prejudice which will only seperate everyone further apart, and quite honesty for the dumbest of reasons. If you want to throw science into the mix for about two seconds, and if Wizards are really just humans with genetic differences, then we're all related at the molecular level anyway thanks to 'Eve' (the scientific one from africa).... So....pureblood is pretty much a useless label anyway. We all share that chromosome--how much more pure can you get???? Potioncat...who wonders how she became a Slytherin defender? Silverthorne: Probably the same way I ended up being a Snape defender after reading book four--you sat down and looked at every side instead of just your favorite one...;) Anne/Silverthorne (Done with rant now that she's slept, had coffee, and fixed the flat *Again within the period of three days* that her roomie out to her while she was typing the original post...) Now where's my meds....? From: "potioncat" Date: 2004/05/26 Wed AM 06:26:52 CDT To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Sorting Hat (Was: The permanent problem with Slytherin House) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 26 12:53:23 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 12:53:23 -0000 Subject: ... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Amber wrote: > OOP chap. 28 > > " Did you like question ten, Moony?" asked Sirius as they emerged into the entrance hall. > > " Loved it." said Lupin briskly. " Give five signs that identify the werewolf. Excellent question." > > " D'you think you managed to get all the signs?" said James in mock concern. > > " Think I did." said Lupin seriously as they joined the crowd > thronging around the front doors eager to get out into the sunlit > grounds. " One: He's sitting on my chair. Two: He's wearing my > clothes. Three: His name's Remus Lupin.." > > > vmonte responds: > > I agree with you. If Hermione was able to figure out what Lupin > was, Snape would have also pieced the clues together. > > vmonte bboy_mn: I have a slightly different take on this subject. We need to remember that Snape was not in the same house as James, Sirius, and Remus; so Remus's absences would not have been as conspicuous to Snape as they were to Sirius and James. So, on this point, at the time of the 'prank', I don't think Snape had figured it out. If he had, why would he have gone into the tunnel? Snape is just not that stupid; he wouldn't knowingly trap himself in an enclosed space with a werewolf. --- Quote PoA Ch-18, pg 356; Am Ed HB --- [Lupin:] "...anyway Snape had seen me (Lupin) crossing the grounds with Madame Pomfrey one evening as she lead me toward the Whomping Willow to transform." "Sirius thought it would be -- er -- amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree with a long stick, and he's be able to get in after me." --- End Quote --- This doesn't establish that Snape did NOT figure out that Lupin was a werewolf, but does seem to indicate that his suspicions were arroused not by the times when Lupin was missing but by having seem Madame Pomfrey escort Lupin into the Whomping Willow tunnel. It seems that the suspicions aroused by this event were what lead to the 'Prank'. I have alway felt that while Sirius deserved a HEAPING HELPING of blame for this 'prank', he was wise enough to play on Snape's emotions, his hated for the four Marauders, and his desire to get them expelled. So I can hear Sirius saying something to this effect, '... so you want to know what's going on do you? Well, prod the knot on that tree, and enter the tunnel and you'll know more than you ever dared to know. Yes, Snape... go ahead, if you dare, but be warned, death awaits you in that tunnel. So, go and meet your doom.' Or something along this general line, sort of a bit of reverse pyschology. Sirius says your a dead man if you enter that tunnel, but if you really want to go then this is how you do it. It's classic 15 year old boy baiting. Tell them it dangerous and that they shouldn't do it, then tell them how, and it's almost a guarantee that they'll try. This could have also been a way for Sirius to satisfy his own pyschology and conscience. If it went horribly wrong, he could always say that he warned Snape not to do it and that it was deadly dangerous, but Snape did it any way. In addition, we need to weigh the impulsiveness of kids that age. They do horribly dangerous things all the time because they only look at the thrill of the event, and never look past to the consequences. Young kids, especially boys, get themselves into trouble like this all the time. Don't get me wrong on this last point, youthful impulsiveness may explain what happened, but it doesn't excuse it. Not in this book and not in real life. Just a thought. bboy_mn From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 26 13:47:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:47:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99479 > > Neri: Where I served, Snape's behavior would have earned him an > immediate court martial. He is a commander who practically aborted > his mission, a most critical mission, because the troopers under his > command (or actually his single trooper) where unruly and hurt his > feelings. In a war, this is just not an acceptable excuse. If your > troopers are unruly, you take care of it. By being brutal or by being > nicer, whatever works. We don't care how you achieve it, but you > don't abort the mission that was entrusted to you. You just don't. > People's life depend on you completing your damn mission. Potioncat: (who also served in a war zone): An officer tells a subordinate that they'll continue later. The officer comes back and finds the subordinate reading his personal papers. Something would happen to that subordinate! At this point throwing Harry out makes sense. If Snape goes to DD and reports the incident and DD says to stop lessons. Then Snape has not aborted his mission. If Snape keeps quiet until much later...say just before the DoM battle, then he did abort his mission and was a poor commander. We don't really know which way it happened. Too bad no one officially told Harry that the mission had changed. Also, not to carry the comparison too far, but Occlumency was a training session, not a combat mission. Neri: > Sirius also is known to let his feelings get the better of him > sometimes, but never on the front under fire. Anyone with combat > experience knows there`s only one way to survive and win in a war: > everyone gives the maximum to the others, no one quits. When the > bullets whistle, you don't have "issues". You give everything, > including your life, to the trooper near you, even if you hate his > guts. Because this is the only way to ensure that he'll do the same > for you (even if he hates YOUR guts). And if anybody in your unit > can't do this to anybody else in the unit, you've already lost the > battle. Potioncat: And if someone's duty was to be at a certain place to give the arriving general a briefing, I'd want him there! > >Neri: > This is also the reason why closing Sirius in 12GP for a whole year > was such a terrible punishment for him. It is not (as some group > members think) because he liked to take chances. It was because for a > soldier like Sirius, staying safe in HQ while seeing his fellow > soldiers risking their life each day, it is something just not done. > It is practically the worst thing he could have done in his own eyes. > He felt like he was deserting them, quitting on them, each single day > again. Potioncat: Agreed to this part. Neri: Asking Sirius to stay behind while Lupin, Moody, Kingsley and > Tonks went to the DoM was absurd. There was just no way in the world > he'd let the four of them take on ten DEs while he's waiting for DD > in HQ, even if it wasn't Harry, Ron and Hermione in there. > Potioncat: Someone needed to stay and at this point, Black was really the best choice. The others were better suited by training to go to the MoM. Neri: > Back to Snape, he might be a great double agent. Perhaps the same > properties that makes him a terrible soldier and commander also makes > him a great double agent. But if DD has any sense, he mustn't put > Snape in a position where other troopers should depend on him and > trust him. It just won't work. It is not a question of loyalty, it's > a question of trust. I hope I've managed to make the difference clear. > Potioncat: Snape has set himself up to be distrusted by Gryffidors. But I'll bet if you had a group of "good" Slytherins, Snape could lead them. I'd bet a number of teachers would follow him too. I'd still rather have Snape protecting the rear than Black. At least I'd know he would be there while Black might be charging on to the front. Potioncat (who should add that she served in the field in a hospital and was very glad to be surrounded by Marines who did not dash to the front no matter how much they wanted to!) From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Wed May 26 13:43:56 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:43:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Petunia, a couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99480 Carol wrote : If you mean thirty years ago as of OoP, Snape would have been about seven and Petunia, I'm guessing, not much older, possibly ten. Carol, who can't imagine Snape even acknowledging the existence of a Muggle Lady Macbeth wrote: My bad: Thirty years ago our time. I was thinking 1970's, when the infamous Marauders, Lily and Snape were all in Hogwarts. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop, from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed May 26 13:53:16 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:53:16 -0000 Subject: ... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Don't get me wrong on this last point, youthful impulsiveness may > explain what happened, but it doesn't excuse it. Not in this book and > not in real life. Even if it did, Black's flippant attitude, "He deserved it." YEARS later (after he'd, according to a large faction here, 'matured') would have negated any excuse that might have been formulated at age 15. Sorry, Black deserved whatever the worst punishment available at the time was. Apologists, take Snape completely out of the picture and consider the consequences to *Lupin* if this 'prank' had gone further. It absolutely astounds me that some here can't see the difference between 'turning over' a 15 year old to a deadly creature and 'turning over' a wanted criminal to the authorities, as unpleasant as they are. And all because it's Snape. Change the character to, say, Arthur Weasley and watch what happens. Yes, in the timeframe of PoA, he'd have turned Black over to Fudge and the Dementors as well. Mel From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed May 26 13:58:43 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:58:43 -0000 Subject: Rabastan Lestrange (Was:Re: LV's Choice: Potters or Longbottoms or both) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99482 Lee wondered about Bellatrix's current whereabouts: > Are you sure, Mandy? I know she got crunched by the stone witch from > the Fountain of Magical Brethren, but I don't think she escaped. > > Cheers, > > Lee (Still trying to kill the migraine) :-( Eustace_Scrubb: I hope you've gotten the better of the migraine! Anyway, from Chapter 36, OoTP: 'He was there!' shouted a scarlet-robed man with a ponytail, who was pointing at a pile of golden rubble on the other side of the hall, where Bellatrix had lain trapped only moments before. 'I saw him, Mr Fudge, I swear it was You-Know-Who, he grabbed a woman and Disapparated!' So apparently Voldemort freed her from under the statuary and they both disapparated. Or he was able to take her with him...I guess there's a difference. Anyway, she wasn't around to be taken back to Azkaban. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed May 26 13:59:19 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:59:19 -0000 Subject: Little Ginevra Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99483 Like a mountain must be climbed because it is there, so new information must be incorporated into a filk for the same reason. I asked the list how to pronounce Ginvera. I had been saying Gin-EV- ra, but SSSusan and Carol brought forth good reasons to use GIN-ev- ra, and so it shall be here. This is dedicated to both of them. "Little Ginevra" to the tune of "Mrs. Robinson" by Simon and Garfunkel. Tom Riddle, recently released from his diary, stands over the nearly lifeless form of Ginny, musically taunting her. All due to you, Little Ginevra, You have told me all I need to know, Wo-wo-wo. Mudbloods will freeze, Little Ginevra, Half a term in Poppy's wing they stay, Hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, hey. I'd like to thank you for your help in updating my files. It's 50 years behind I left myself. Since I saw the gleam of fear in your pathetic eyes, When I dragged you here to my ancestral home... It's due to you, Little Ginevra, You have told me all I need to know, Wo-wo-wo. Mudbloods will freeze, Little Ginevra, Half a term in Poppy's wing they stay, Hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, hey. Chuck it in a haunted loo where no one ever goes. Put it in your backpack with your spellbooks. It's a Riddle secret, just known to the Slyth'rin heir. Only Dumbledore suspected what I did. It's due to you, Little Ginevra, You have told me all I need to know, Wo-wo-wo. Mudbloods will freeze, Little Ginevra, Half a term in Poppy's wing they stay, Hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, hey. Waiting in the chamber, for your death will happen soon. I will now be whole; you dissipate. I don't doubt it, I must tout it- You were meant to lose. No one even noticed all the clues... Roosters all gone, Little Ginevra, There's not a single cock-a-doodle-doo. Woo-woo-woo. Spiders queued up, Little Ginevra, To the forest they all went to stay, Hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, hey. Ginger, who made this up at work, and got a bad case of the giggles with the "loo where no one ever goes" line, and now half my co- workers think me mad, but there you have it! From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed May 26 14:07:24 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:07:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Associations (Was: Re: Slytherin in So rting Hat) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99484 Mandy here: I immediately though of the Tarot when I read the above posts. The four suits in Tarot are Swords, Cups, Wands, and Coins, and each suit is equated with one of the four elements, Air, Water, Fire and Earth. While thinking about symbolism and the four Hogwarts houses, this is what I came up with: The Sword of Gryffindor: The Wand of Slytherin: The Coins of Ravenclaw: The Cup of Hufflepuff: Just a thought. Gina: The only thing I would change is I would say that Slytherin would be the Coins because they are all "pure" bloods and considered to be the better class. I would say Ravenclaw would be the wand because they are the intellectuals, the Sword for Gryffindor is obvious, and the Cup is generally a symbol for hospitality which would fit Hufflepuff well. Just my 2 cents! Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed May 26 14:09:26 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:09:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: there are SHIPs and... sorry but Luna rem inds me of w... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99485 jferer at yahoo.com writes: I don't see Luna as a Wormtail at all. Wormtail had this insecurity, a resentment of those around him who were better than he was; he was second or third class and knoew it. That is scary. You just described Ron. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies Gina: I will go on record again saying that Hermione is going to confess she is in love with Harry and that is going to push Ron over the edge with Harry beating him at something yet again! I think we were being set up for this in GoF but I hope Ron does not go too far over the edge. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed May 26 14:08:39 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:08:39 -0000 Subject: Filk: Amelia Susan Bones Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99486 Sometimes the goofy muse strikes. To the tune of the Adam's Family. I'll just put *** in where the instrumental and finger snapping is supposed to be. I'd appreciate it if you added it yourself as I can't snap my fingers. *** She sat through Harry's trial Near Toady's simp'ring smile Whilst Fudge was in denial. Amelia Susan Bones. *** "Patronus corporeal?" She asked with gaze of steel That Harry could quite feel. Amelia Susan Bones. *** By monicle bespected, Austere, stern, and respected, To Hufflepuff connected. Amelia Susan Bones. *** To fight the good fight ready, Just like poor brother Eddy, Her moral keel quite steady. Amelia Susan Bones. *** Ginger, who realized that she did not put FILK in the subject like of her last, and is truly contrite. (The iron is heating as we speak, er, type.) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 14:10:21 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:10:21 -0000 Subject: ... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > > Don't get me wrong on this last point, youthful impulsiveness may > > explain what happened, but it doesn't excuse it. Not in this book > and > > not in real life. > > > Even if it did, Black's flippant attitude, "He deserved it." YEARS > later (after he'd, according to a large faction here, 'matured') > would have negated any excuse that might have been formulated at age > 15. Matured? Right out of Azkaban? When his darkest thoughts were with him every single day? Where Snape probably occupied not the last place? If Sirius said that "serves him right" say in GoF, I would have been considerably more upset with him. > Sorry, Black deserved whatever the worst punishment available at the > time was. No, he did not. Snape may have thought that he did and if he honestly believed in that, I'll forgive him, but otherwise... Sorry. Apologists, take Snape completely out of the picture and > consider the consequences to *Lupin* if this 'prank' had gone > further. > It absolutely astounds me that some here can't see the difference > between 'turning over' a 15 year old to a deadly creature > and 'turning over' a wanted criminal to the authorities, as > unpleasant as they are. "Turning over"? Did Sirius tied Snape and threw him into Shrieking Shack for Lupin to eat? Oh, I forgot, Snape really wanted to know where Lupin went every month. REALLY wanted to know. Sirius answered his question. > And all because it's Snape. Change the character to, say, Arthur > Weasley and watch what happens. Yes, in the timeframe of PoA, he'd > have turned Black over to Fudge and the Dementors as well. > > Mel I disagree. Me thinks Arthur Weasley would have been willing to listen to Black's story or at least delivered him to Dumbledore right away. Alla From crussell at arkansas.net Wed May 26 14:24:40 2004 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:24:40 -0000 Subject: Chapter 18: Dumbledore's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > > Hermione has a lack of empathy towards others that I find a little > off-putting. Maybe she's simply at that stage in her teen life >where she thinks she knows it all. Once again I feel compelled to defend Hermione. IMO, I do not see a lack of empathy on her part concerning Sirius (and by the way I love Sirius too). She seems to be the only one that senses Sirius' loneliness. Keep in mind when she refers to the members of the Order being around, she is also referring to Remus, a close friend. The fact that Sirius sees Harry as being another "James" is something that does not occur to our two boys-but it does not get past our girl. I am not saying that Hermione is perfect. Her efforts concerning the house-elfs are way-off. But as a loyal supporter of Harry, her importance to him should not be questioned. I guess what I am saying is, that as long as she continues to provide Harry with much needed support, her small quirks of character should be overlooked. bugaloo37, who loves Harry and therefore loves anyone who so obviously loves him From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed May 26 14:38:40 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:38:40 -0000 Subject: Lupin on the Hogwarts Express Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99490 Has anyone figured out why Prof. Lupin rode the train to Hogwarts for the start of term in PoA? No other DADA professors (Lockhart, Moody, Umbridge) in particular (and in fact no other teachers) have ever been on the train so why was Lupin? I was thinking that Lupin might have been a last minute appointee to the post of DADA teacher, and so the train was the only way for him to get to Hogwarts. But why was he a last minute appointee? Was it because he had a relationship with Sirius Black, who has just escaped from Azkaban and DD (fearing, I don't know, something) wanted Lupin close at hand? It's too big of a coincidence that Lupin should have been appointed to the DADA post *before* Black escaped. After all, DD appointed ex-Auror Moody to the post when he knew that LV was on the rise again, so maybe there was reasoning behind Lupin's appointment, too. Any thoughts? Or am I cracked? Meri - who really really really really cannot wait for the PoA movie next week!!!!!!!!! From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 26 14:58:33 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:58:33 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99491 I started to add this to a running post about Sirius and Severus and the prank, but it's enough different to make a new, baggage-free post. I've no doubt that Sirius was impulsive and did not intend for Severus to be killed. He should have been held accountible if Severus had been injured. I believe Snape feels that Black was trying to kill him. James thought that Severus was in danger. Lupin (current WW time) thinks Severus was in danger. Let's see, every month Remus is taken to the Shack. The other three go through the tunnel and join him. He's in the shack, not the tunnel, and cannot get out. They can get into the Shack. Severus is tricked into going through the tunnel. James goes after him to save him from the werewolf. Severus sees the werewolf just before he's dragged away. Isn't the werewolf on the other side of the door? Why would Severus have even opened the door if he could see that there was a werewolf on the other side? Didn't Lupin say he made horrible noises and sounds when he was in the werewolf state? So wouldn't Severus had heard something when he got close, even if he didn't see the werewolf? Seems to me he would have seen it, heard it and gone back to tell everyone. What am I missing? Potioncat From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed May 26 15:12:14 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:12:14 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Mommy_can=92t_protect_you_forever?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99492 Okay, Neri, now you've made me doubt what I once thought obvious. Now I'm thinking we don't have enough information, but I'll examine the new thoughts you've prompted and let's see if we can't get any further. > Neri: > DD words in SS/PS: > "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot > understand, it is love. He didn't realise that love as powerful as > your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible > sign to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved > us is gone, will give us some protection for ever. It is in your very > skin. Quirrell, full of hatred, greed and ambition, sharing his soul > with Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason. It was agony to > touch a person marked by something so good." > > This can be interpreted as if only LV or someone sharing his soul > with him would trigger the protection, but also as if any extremely > bad person could do it. Dudley wouldn't have fit the bill, but > Wormtail could have. Annemehr: Going by Dudley's obvious lack of burns, he didn't fit the bill (yay! something for certain!). But are we sure why that was? Is it because Dudley is a Muggle? If so, then Harry's only protected against certain people (wizards), not everyone. Is it because Dudley, full of malice as he must have been, did not actually intend murder? Well, neither did Wormtail, technically, and besides, DD does not mention "murder" in the passage you quoted. Is it because Dudley, being a child at the time, could not be evil enough to trigger the protection? This one I could buy. Is this what you were thinking of? Neri: > Voldy in the graveyard scene says: > "I wanted Harry Potters blood. I wanted the blood of the one who had > stripped me of power thirteen years ago for the lingering protection > his mother once gave him would then reside in my veins too. " > > If the protection is specifically anti-LV, I'd say the last thing > Voldy would want to do is get it into his body. It is much easier to > explain why he did it if we assume that the protection protects the > carrier from any great threat. Annemehr: Actually, I have no problem with LV wanting Harry's blood if the protection was LV-specific. It's like a vaccine then, isn't it? A vaccine puts the very virus you want protection against into your body so you can develop a resistance to it. Or, it's like anti-venin being made out of the same snake venom it's meant to block. Even homeopathic medicine uses this idea. So, LV took a few drops of the blood of the one who could burn him by a touch, to make himself immune to that. I think that makes narrative sense, so I don't think the use of Harry's blood is an argument for either of our viewpoints. I still think my original idea of LV-specific protection is valid, but now I think it's only one possible view. > > Neri: > See above why I think the protection was not specific to LV. One > might say that this question doesn't have any importance now, if we > agree that Lily's protection doesn't work anymore anyway. However, > there is one scenario in which this question can be very important: > if LV believes he bought himself protection from anybody with Harry's > blood, but it actually doesn't work, LV might take a hit when he > least expects to. Annemehr: There are a couple different ideas at work here, so I'll try not to be confusing. First of all, the idea that Lily's sacrifice conferred protection against anyone of murderous intent is maybe too much for my personal taste -- the protection is too broad for my liking. If it's limited to physical contact alone, though, at least it's not making anyone immortal. I'm interested in exactly what you posit that LV thinks he's now protected against? The reason I agreed that Lily's protection didn't work anymore was because I assumed it was specific to LV, and since LV had overcome it with Harry's blood, it was gone. Or rather, the burning skin part was gone; I had my mind kept open that there may still be more to it that we don't know yet (the infamous gleam, you know). But if Lily's sacrifice provided protection against *anyone* attacking Harry with enough evil intent, then I don't know why it wouldn't work anymore. If I understand you correctly, you attribute it to Harry's age -- the protection "wore off" as Harry grew and matured. But the quote from Dumbledore at the beginning of this post says it would provide some protection *forever.* Here's another attack on Harry that was dire enough to trigger protection if it had applied -- it's in the battle in the DoM in OoP, in the Death Chamber shortly before Dumbledore's arrival: "[T]hen a thick arm came out of nowhere, seized Harry around the neck and pulled him upright, so that his toes were barely touching the floor. 'Give it to me,' growled a voice in his ear, 'give me the prophecy --' The man was pressing so tightly on Harry's windpipe that he could not breathe -- [...] nobody seemed to realise that Harry was dying...." So, if I was right, and the protection was specific to LV, then MacNair (that's who the strangler was) would not have been affected by it. If you were right, and the protection was universal but had worn off by that time, that also explains why MacNair was unscathed, but then you have to explain why Dumbledore said "forever" in a passage where I think we have to take him at his word or be resigned to really knowing nothing at all. > > Annemehr, previously: > I assume that Harry's resistance to LV's possession is very important > to how Harry will defeat him, which is probably why Jo doesn't want to > define it too closely. Though we've toyed with various ideas on this > list, I always come back to "love" being the most fitting explanation. > The key to the whole thing may be the particular form or > manifestation of love that will come into play, which she's still > keeping secret. > > Neri: > "Love" was the word DD used when explaining Lily's ancient magic in > SS/PS, but now you agree that the-power-behind-the-locked-door is > something else than Lily's protection. So is it a different kind of > love? > > One key for finding the identity of this power might be asking: How > did Harry get it? Lily's protection took no less than sacrificing her > life. This suggests that Harry must have done some very powerful > things to acquire his new power. > > 2, 5, 6, and 7 can be ascribed to Love. The others cannot. Therefore > I think it is not exactly love. > > Neri Annemehr: I think we're looking at this from different angles. I'm thinking that Love is the cause for all of these things. Lily's love caused her to sacrifice her life which gave Harry protection. Harry didn't acquire his capacity for love by doing things; rather, he did things because of love. That's how I see it (though, doing things out of love will strengthen love much like exercising a muscle strengthens it -- but the love was there to begin with). So, during the possession, when he was in such pain and LV goaded DD to kill him, the thought of death only reminded Harry of Sirius which triggered Harry's emotions of love for him. Harry's love caused the emotions which drove LV away. In other words, Harry's power of love is something that he just *has,* in the same way that he just has his magical power. He didn't do anything to acquire either of them except be born; by excersising and practicing them he can increase their power as he grows. That's what I think. So, to get back to the locked door: if it hides Love, it is not anyone's love in particular, Harry's or Lily's or anyone else's, but must be some manifestation or symbol of Love in general. The other rooms had concretised aspects of their themes: time turners and the bell jar, a tank of brains, floating planets, a doorway with a veil -- all things which would have their various effects on you if you meddled with them. The locked door may well hide something of that sort. And, no, I can't imagine what form it might take without coming up with something silly (like lacy valentines :P). And as a very general prediction of what this all will mean, I think Lily's sacrifice may be a foreshadowing or prefiguring of what Harry ends up doing -- but that doesn't mean I'm at all certain that Harry will die, even; I still have no idea what Jo has in mind other than lots of vague possibilities. I do think Jo means Harry to do something huge out of love, as Lily did. Apologies to those who now feel overly-saccharined. ;) Annemehr From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 15:13:11 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:13:11 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I started to add this to a running post about Sirius and Severus and > the prank, but it's enough different to make a new, baggage-free > post. > > I've no doubt that Sirius was impulsive and did not intend for > Severus to be killed. He should have been held accountible if > Severus had been injured. I believe Snape feels that Black was > trying to kill him. James thought that Severus was in danger. Lupin > (current WW time) thinks Severus was in danger. > > Let's see, every month Remus is taken to the Shack. The other three > go through the tunnel and join him. He's in the shack, not the > tunnel, and cannot get out. They can get into the Shack. > > Severus is tricked into going through the tunnel. James goes after > him to save him from the werewolf. Severus sees the werewolf just > before he's dragged away. > > Isn't the werewolf on the other side of the door? Why would Severus > have even opened the door if he could see that there was a werewolf > on the other side? Didn't Lupin say he made horrible noises and > sounds when he was in the werewolf state? So wouldn't Severus had > heard something when he got close, even if he didn't see the > werewolf? Seems to me he would have seen it, heard it and gone back > to tell everyone. What am I missing? > > Potioncat That is the problem. We are missing soo much information about that night. I want to know when for example Peter started to look at Voldemort supporters and think about joining. We have absolutely no information supporting or negating the assumption that people could joing while in Hogwarts. Did Peter have anything to do with Prank? Could he have put Severus under Imperium curse? It is outlandish, I know, but also possible. Alla From pt4ever at yahoo.com Wed May 26 15:15:10 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:15:10 -0000 Subject: Lupin on the Hogwarts Express In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99494 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > Has anyone figured out why Prof. Lupin rode the train to Hogwarts > for the start of term in PoA? JoAnna: I think he was there to watch over Harry, since Dumbledore & Co. knew there was a good chance that Dementors would be searching the train, and that they might strongly affect Harry considering the horrors in his past. They might also have wanted a teacher there (especially a good DADA teacher) just in case Sirius decided to do something stupid and sneak onto the train. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed May 26 15:18:18 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:18:18 -0000 Subject: Remus is the worst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99495 Woa. Hello Ava, OK, here goes: > > I wrote: > > Renee you make a very good point. Life is about choices, and it is Easy to say `make a choice between what is easy and what is right', But sometimes the choice that has to made, is between bad and worse. How then, so you decide which is right and because neither choice will be easy? > Ava responded: > Just wondering if you could clarify - when you say 'bad' > and 'worse', do you mean (A) morally/ethically or (b)in terms of how rotten it would make the decision-makers life? Mandy again: Both. Morally/ethically, and in terms of living with the consequences of ones actions. The dilemma is how to weight up the results if both results are going to be terrible. For example, I just finished reading The Dream of Scipio by Ian Pears. (The whole books deals with this issue, which is why it's on my mind.) In the book one of the characters, a French man living in Vichy France, is put in the position to make the choice between, informing the Nazis of the identity of French Jewish families living in his town, (friends of his included) or having the Nazis execute 12 random villagers every month until he comes through with the information. (Men, women and children that he also knows). I won't tell you the decision he finally reaches, but after the war it weighs so heavily on him that he commits suicide. The ramifications of such a decision are endless. Both choices are terrible. It seems to me that you have to try and do what is right for the community as a whole, (although sometimes even deciding what is right for the community is difficult) while knowing that you, as an individual, will have to live with that decision for the rest of your life. You and yours are the ones who are going to have to live with the consequences of that. > I wrote: > > I have defended Peter Pettigrew on many occasion. He's a fascination to me because I see similarities between himself and myself at high school. Fortunately I grew up to be a relatively normal adult. Haven't killed anyone, although I've though about it at times. ;-) > Ava responded: > No evidence he made any such choice. In fact, little Petey > decided to follow Voldemort even when the Big Cheese was at his > weakest & there was nothing stopping him from continuing his > miserable ratty little life. What could be defensible about that? Mandy again: Yes I said that in my post. My thoughts on Peter are pure speculation. But it was those thoughts that simulated my questioning of the dilemma of decision making in extreme circumstances that most of us have no understanding of. > I wrote: > Sirius' answer was to die. > > Ava responded: > How so? If you're talking about Way Back Then, he foisted his > duty on Peter, & then tried to kill the Rat. Arguably, if the > thought that killing Peter could send him to Azkaban entered Sirius' mind at all, he made a sacrifice in risking imprisonment by chasing Peterdown, but at that point, he was already a wanted man for the Potters death, so heck, what's another friend's murder, in the > scheme of things? Mandy again: I was referring to Sirius' comment he makes to Peter in the Shack. When Peter asked Sirius what else he should have done when faced with Voldemorts power, Sirius answer was simple; if Voldemort asks you betray your friends or die, you die. My point was that that kind of bravado comes from a man who has nothing else to live for but his friends that he is choosing for. So therefore the choice for him is easy. If he had a family, or wife and kids who depended on him being alive Sirius' choice whole have been a whole lot more complicated. > I wrote: > Again, we don't know if Peter has any family > > at all either and perhaps he doesn't and Sirius was right. But I'm certain the DE and Voldemort used such techniques in converting > > people to their side. Threatening to kill children and family to > > force someone into committing heinous crimes. > Ava responded: > Know what? From what we've seen of Peterkins, I bet he's sacrifice his 1st born to save his own hide. Don't see that any of that lot, w/ the possible exception of Potter, had that choice to make. Mandy again: You might be right there, but I was attempting to understand how and why people make the choices they do in extreme situations. It is too easy for us on the outside looking in. > I wrote: > > Remus now appears to be alone. Remus lives in fear, a very dark and sad place. And I have to say it would be, or was, as easy for Remus to fall to Voldemort as it was for Peter. > Ava responded: > Peter had no compunctions about ratting out his best friend to the biggest bully in the playground. Mandy again: But we don't know that. It looks that way, but it's too easy. I hope that Peter had a deeper reason of doing what he did. If so it will make him a far more interesting, 3 dimensional character worthy of the important role he is to play in future books I suppose what I'm trying to say is the answer is not always black and white as we all know. And the choice is always simple for us on the outside looking in, or looking back with all the facts in hand. Especally for us ananlizing avery detail of the books over and over again. Jo has created a world in which realism plays such an important part, and is the main reason why the books are so popular. I'm holding out for the bad guys to become as fully realized and as real as the good guys once we get some of their back story. If we do? Cheers Mandy From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed May 26 15:40:04 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:40:04 -0000 Subject: Remus is the worst (Peter's motivation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99496 > Now xani: > I too am fascinated by Peter and the choices he made. Is he really > Evil, or just weak? I would like to think that he had to make a > terrible choice to try to save someone, but there is evidence > against it. In the Shack, Peter defends his actions by saying that Voldemort was going to kill him only. It would have made for a much more tragic and complex scene if Peter had told Sirius that he had to do what he did because the DE's had his mother, sibling, child. That would have helped Sirius (and us) understand and empathize with him. > But JKR has shown us only a weak man who gave his friends lives for > his own. Mandy again: Yipee, I not completely alone! ;-) I know I have no canon, and the evidence is against me, but I'm holding out for a deeper, more conflict Peter Pettigrew. We know he's coming back for more fun in the next 2 books, I hope he has a big show with Harry so we can glimpse into his psyche a little deeper. Cheers Mandy, Wormtail is misunderstood. ;-) From snow15145 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 16:39:38 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 16:39:38 -0000 Subject: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99497 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > Snow wrote (in #99427): > > When DD learned about Snape's refusal to further teach Harry, DD > > did not pursue it. Could that have been because the lesson that > > needed to be taught, was taught? (IMO) Harry was being taught it > > just wasn't occlumency. Harry learned exactly what DD wanted him > > to know. Harry needed to be put through enough ordeals in an > > attempt to teach him restraint and control over his emotions. > > > > > > I don't believe in the "ever so evil" DD but how about the "ever > > so manipulative" DD? The end product was Harry's emotions saving > > him from being possessed by Voldemort. Would Harry, during the > > attempted possession, have felt enough emotion to endure the pain > > if he had not previously had several doses of pain to assure the > > strongest emotional result? > > > This time, after enduring a substantial amount of emotional ordeals, > > Harry is much stronger and endured the test. > > > Ally: > > That's an interesting theory. I did suspect occlumency was a set up > by DD, but I was thinking that he wanted Snape and Harry to see each > other's memories and learn that they had some things in common. In > my mind, it was building to the two of them working together in the > way that DD has emphasized is necessary for success. > > But I think I might like your theory better (although I suppose that > ours aren't necessarily mutually exclusive). But what did Harry > learn - that his father was less than perfect? I'm not sure I see > the connection between this lesson and his ability to fight off V in > the end. Snow again: The penceive is actually a separate lesson than the occlumency lessons which taught Harry how to deal with emotions like humility among other things. The penceive memories themselves were not what was important, but how Harry perceived what he had seen. To understand it fully you need to look at the first time Harry peeped into a pencieve. DD told Harry GOF pg.398 "Curiosity is not a sin but we should exercise caution with our curiosity" DD then precedes to teach Harry through the penceive about Bertha Jorkins: "He put a hex on me, Professor Dumbledore, and I was only teasing him, sir, I only said I'd seen him kissing Florence " It is DD's reply that is important here: But why, Bertha," said Dumbledore sadly "Why did you have to follow him in the first place?" Again place DD's advice to Harry here: that we should exercise caution with our curiosity as if to say you may end up in a situation,like Bertha, you don't want to be in or in Harry's case see something you shouldn't have seen. Peeping Harry just couldn't resist the curiosity of what he felt Snape was hiding in the penceive and it backfired on him. Harry didn't get the scoop on Snape but ended up feeling sorry for him and having to deal with more emotional difficulty because he didn't heed DD's advice about exercising caution with curiosity. Harry's always being taught. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 17:08:37 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:08:37 -0000 Subject: Imperio! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99498 I know this has been touched on in various ways, but I'd still like to add my two knuts. I think that it's very important that so many wizards seemed to come out of a trance when LV disappeared after GH, and I'm sure we're going to see more of that happening. In the Fudge/Percy posts, some of you have mentioned whether or not Percy is under a spell, or whether he'll be put under a spell. I think he's a good candidate. Lure him with false promises, then Imperio his butt. Hagrid, in SS, even says that no one knew who to trust. I think that's why it was so easy for many of them to let Sirius get railroaded into Azkaban. And slightly OT, it struck me as odd that Bella and her gang, who were truly mad, got to have a trial, whereas, Sirius, who's proven time and again, to _not_ hold the same views re:purebloods as his family did, still gets sent to Azkaban without a trial. But I digress. I have a few opinions as to who else might be a good candidate for the Dark Side to Imperio, but I'd love to hear what you all think. Besides Percy, who's an excellent candidate, I think Draco would be someone that the DE's could go after. Now, I know he's not exactly a good guy, but I doubt he's capable of murder, especially at his age, and with his privileged upbringing. However, it wouldn't take much convincing, especially under a powerful spell, cast by a powerful witch/wizard, to convince him to do any number of nasty things. Who else? Susan :-) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 26 17:31:00 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:31:00 -0000 Subject: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99499 > Snow: > Did you ever consider the possibility that this whole occlumency thing could have very well been created by DD for the specific purpose of using Snape and his pencieve memory purely for Harry's emotional response? Nothing else was obtained by the actual lessons. > When DD learned about Snape's refusal to further teach Harry, DD did not pursue it. Could that have been because the lesson that needed to be taught, was taught? (IMO) < Dumbledore says at the end that it was a matter of great urgency that Harry master Occlumency and that it was a mistake for him not to have taught Harry himself. So I think the lessons were a genuine attempt. But I also think they were stopped purposefully. I mean, the more I think about that set up with the Pensieve, the more it smells. Harry is careless, and so he never thinks it's significant when someone else makes a careless mistake. But Snape is obsessively *not* careless--it's what makes him an excellent potion maker and a successful spy. Do we really believe that he was so distracted by Montague's plight that he ran out of his office leaving Potter and a Pensieve full of highly dangerous memories behind him? There's a lot about the Occlumency lessons that we don't know. Harry was having them every week, but we see only three or four. The impression is that Snape discovered Harry's vision of Rookwood, Dumbledore decided Occlumency was more important than ever, and Snape threw him out the very next lesson. But in between is the chapter about Firenze, where he tells Harry that Hagrid's attempt is not working and it should be abandoned. Dumbledore is forced from office. March blurs into April. Harry is still constantly dreaming about the corridor and still dwelling on his dream of being Voldemort. And there may have been more than one. Canon is vague about it. We don't actually know how many lessons or visions there were between the Rookwood vision and Harry's look into Snape's past. But we do get a hint that an attempt which is not working may be abandoned. It could be that Dumbledore realized the lessons weren't working and instructed Snape to find a way to abandon them without causing Harry to ruminate on why they had failed--lest Voldemort dwell on this too. Why reveal a weakness to the enemy? Of course Snape does seem really angry with Harry when he finds him in his memories. But you don't have to be a devotee of MAGIC DISHWASHER to notice that Snape goes on the warpath in situations where it would be very inconvenient for him to answer questions. IMO, he doesn't want to tell Harry *why* he's stopping Occlumency, so he arranges to fly into a towering rage instead. Of course he couldn't have planned for Montague to turn up when he did, but Snape could have taken advantage of it to do something he was planning to do already. Let Potter see what his sainted father was really like, and at the same time, end the lessons in such a way that Harry will not wonder if his failure to learn is what caused it. Of course Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry all this without admitting how closely he and Snape are working together. It's not time for that yet. Pippin From LadySawall at aol.com Wed May 26 17:38:37 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:38:37 EDT Subject: Remus is the worst Message-ID: <67.2a35621b.2de6301d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99500 In a message dated 05/25/2004 6:20:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ally writes: >I think Remus is worse. When I think of Remus, I think of the person in the South during Jim Crow who didn't believe the races were unequal but stood by and watched a lynching occur. I think of the German citizens in WWII who had nothing against the Jews but didn't speak out when a jewish neighbor was carted off to a concentration camp. >It didn't JUST take the KKK or the Nazis to commit these atrocities. It took the silence and refusal to intervene of those around them. The actors and the passive observers were equal partners in the terrible things that occurred. Their passivity was a necessary component of the actors' success. But we focus so much on the actors - because they're out in the open - that we forget the role the passive observers play. Jo Ann: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." --Attributed to Edmund Burke "In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. They they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." --Martin Niemoeller, on the Holocaust I think in Severus' place, I would probably rank Remus right up there with James and Sirius on the hate-list. Not just because he stood by and did nothing, but also because on one memorable occasion he was a co-victim, betrayed by Sirius' carelessness, and *still* he did nothing. I do understand Remus's dilemna, and as with Sirius, I don't believe he's evil. But I do think that the Marauders' history, and Severus', and by extention Harry's, would be very different if Remus had stood up to his friends. Heck, he wouldn't even have had to do it alone--he could have joined forces with Lily. I hope that when it comes down to it, if the responsibility to stop some new atrocity lands in his lap, he'll find it in himself to speak out and to act, no matter what it might cost him. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed May 26 17:43:18 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:43:18 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99501 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Severus is tricked into going through the tunnel. James goes after > him to save him from the werewolf. Severus sees the werewolf just > before he's dragged away. > > Isn't the werewolf on the other side of the door? Why would Severus have even opened the door if he could see that there was a werewolf on the other side? Didn't Lupin say he made horrible noises and sounds when he was in the werewolf state? So wouldn't Severus had heard something when he got close, even if he didn't see the werewolf? Seems to me he would have seen it, heard it and gone back to tell everyone. What am I missing? > Carolyn: No, there is no door, all Lupin says is that 'Snape glimpsed me..at the end of the tunnel' But, never mind the door, there is the little question of how a tunnel so small that the kids had to crouch double to walk along in POA (1), was big enough to take a full-grown stag, complete with antlers *and* a large werewolf(2)- at the time of the Prank, and at other times a gigantic dog (3). Is it possible that at the time of the Prank, James also went down the tunnel in human form to get Snape? If Lupin could not actually get out that way when in werewolf mode because he was simply too big, it would seem neither Snape nor James was in much danger. It could be that Sirius knew this all along, and hence has been maligned unfairly for his rashness, and Snape was too frightened at the time to realise. Even if this is not true, there are further unexplained aspects to this part of the story. If it was possible for the Marauders to somehow get in to the Shack in their gigantic transformed states and lead a large werewolf out, what was to prevent Lupin getting out anytime he was confined to the Shack? Was there not a danger he would inevitably find the tunnel exit and rush out? There seems to have been nothing to stop him. Surely all-powerful Dumbledore could manage a blocking spell or two ? If he didn't why not? More forgetfulness ? If he had put such a spell on the Shack, then the Marauders could never have got Lupin out, in their transformed states or not. Making an effort to be charitable to DD, perhaps the simple explanation is that a werewolf *is* too big to get down that tunnel, and DD knew that Snape was never in any danger, and that's why no one was ever punished for the Prank. In which case, how did Lupin get out to play each month. The only other logical explanations are that there is another way out of the Shack, or animagi can also shrink if they need to, or the tunnel expands and contracts to suit the size of the people trying to get down it (4) - again, not particularly safe for caging a werewolf, don't you think? Whichever way you look at this, all the explanations are unsatisfactory. We have no canon to support another exit from the Shack. It is beyond credibility that the transformed Lupin, thrashing around regularly once a month might not discover the exit to the tunnel. The simplicity of the spells needed to prevent this are obvious. If Sirius, Peter and Lupin are telling the truth about what they did all those years ago, then DD took a fantastic, careless risk in allowing it to happen..or he knew it was happening. Did no one in the Forbidden Forest tell him about a werewolf regularly on the loose accompanied by at least two other enormous animals? All those magical centaurs, the mer-people having a midnight float on the surface of the lake? The intelligent owls, and who knows what else goes squeak in the night in the WW? Even the most rudimentary information system should have informed him what was happening. Carolyn Wondering where the DUST* squad have got to these days (*Dumbledore Surveillance Team) Refs: (1) POA,p247 (UK)'Harry went next; he crawled forwards, headfirst, and slid down an earthy slope to the bottom of a very low tunnel'.. 'This way, said Harry, setting off, bent-backed, after Crookshanks'....'They moved as fast as they could, bent almost double..' (2) POA, p.260 'Sirius & James transformed into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check' p279 (UK) 'As the werewolf reared, snapping its long jaws, Sirius disappeared from Harry's side. He had transformed. The enormous, bear- like dog..' (3)p.260 'They transformed..Peter, as the smallest could slip beneath the Willow...They would then slip down the tunnel and join me.' (4)p.277 As they exit the Shack, the tunnel is suddenly big enough to allow four adults to creep along in single file, with Snape 'bumping his lolling head on the low ceiling'. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 26 17:53:18 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:53:18 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > PotionCat: > > I've no doubt that Sirius was impulsive and did not intend for > Severus to be killed. He should have been held accountible if > Severus had been injured. I believe Snape feels that Black was > trying to kill him. James thought that Severus was in danger. Lupin > (current WW time) thinks Severus was in danger. > bboy_mn: This kind of touches on my statement in the other thread about youthful impulsiveness. I don't think Sirius intended for Snape to be killed or harmed. Partly because, if that happened it would have been devastating for Remus Lupin in many ways. That would have been a terrible thing to happen to Remus, and I can't see Sirius wanting to hurt Remus. In his youthful impulsive mind, I think Sirius had visions of Snape running away in fear wetting himself as he went. That image would certainly be a great laugh for Sirius. That's a classic case of a kid so caught up in an impulse that he can't see the devistation to all concerned if it doesn't go quite they way he envisions. Once again, I emphasize that just because I can explain how and why it happened, doesn't in anyway excuse it. So, if Snape and the werewolf had tangled, then Sirius, as well as others, would have suffered severe consequences in the moral, spiritual, and most importantly, legal sense. Indeed, if there had been harm, there would have been grave punishment. Given that no harm was done, I want to remind people that we don't know that involved parties were not punished. Snape tends to imply or hint at Sirius and James getting off scot-free, but Snape, being the victim, has a somewhat biased view. Any punishment in his mind would have been too light. I could easily see Snape getting a weeks detention for nosing around in Dumbledore's business when he knew, without question, that he had no buisness doing so. Plus a weeks detention for James, even though by some stretch we could call him a hero, there was probably a reasonable assumption that he was in on it. Then a months worth of detentions for Sirius for being so impulsive and short sighted as to think having his best friend kill a fellow student constituded a joke. I can't say that for a fact, and even if right, that would be mild punishment for all concerned. The problem is, we simple do not have enough information about what really happened before, during, or after this event. > PotionCat continues: > > Let's see, every month Remus is taken to the Shack. The other three > go through the tunnel and join him. He's in the shack, not the > tunnel, and cannot get out. They can get into the Shack. > bboy_mn: The whole entrance to and exit from the Shack has alway had me confused. Could we logically assume that the Shack was enchanted in such a way that once in the Shack, Remus could not get out? That would seem a reasonable safeguard, but we know that all of them were able to leave the Shack and roam the grounds and village. Maybe Jame or Sirius found a way around that protective enchantment. Perhaps Madame Pomfrey sealed the tunnel or the exit from the Shack, and James removed the sealing enchantment. If the hole at the Shack end of the tunnel were sealed by Madame Pomfrey that would prevent Snape and Remus from interacting. But if that's true, then what was the problem? If the exit is sealed, then Snape wasn't really in any danger unless he too removed the protective enchantment. Again, I think at this point, the only thing we can truly conclude is that we don't have enough information to draw any reasonable conclusion. But that brings up the question, once Remus is inside, is the entrance sealed from both directions; barring entrance and exit, or allowing entrance but barring exit? But again, the Marauder seem to come and go at will. Perhaps in his werewolf form, Remus simply didn't have the logic skills to exit from the Whomping Willow on his own, or perhaps, he didn't have the logic and reasoning skills to exit the Shack and enter the tunnel. Although, how much logic does it take for a wolf to crawl into a hole? Again, too many questions, and not enough facts. > Potioncat concludes: > Severus is tricked into going through the tunnel. James goes after > him to save him from the werewolf. Severus sees the werewolf just > before he's dragged away. > > Isn't the werewolf on the other side of the door? Why would Severus > have even opened the door if he could see that there was a werewolf > on the other side? ...snip... What am I missing? > > Potioncat bboy_mn: The whole layout of the entrance to the Shack has always been a little unclear to me, as I said before. Here is what the book tells us... ---quote PoA - AM Ed. HB PG 337 --- And the tunnel begain to rise; .... ...Harry could see a patch of dim light through a small opening. ...He and Hermione ...raised thier wands to see what lay beyond. It was a small room .... (description of room). Harry pulled himself out of the hole, staring around. The room was deserted, but a door to their right stood open, leading into a shadowy hallway. --- End Quote --- First, the door of which you spoke does not seal the entrance to the Shack. The entrance is a hole into a room, but whether a hole in the floor or a hole in the wall, I do not know. As you can see, the only door mentioned here is an open door that exits the room and enters a hallway. In the absents of a sealing door, we are left with my statements in the previous section above. The tunnel ends in a hole which opens into a room. Can we logically assume any sealing or barring enchantments on that hole? Well, we can assume it, but there is no evidence of it. Does that leave the Whomping Willow as the only effective seal? So, now all I can do is what I do best; speculate. Perhaps as James caught up to Snape in the tunnel, Snape was able to observe Wolf!Remus looking back into the hole at him. In an effort to keep Wolf!Remus in the Shack, James shot sparks at him (or something) while he dragged Snape back toward the Whomping Willow. Even this very compact, logical, and reasonable explanation is based on almost NO facts. It has to be pure speculation, because we have so very very very few facts to base any conclusions on. Summary of Key Points- -Reasonable assumption to think Sirius did NOT intend for Snape to die or be bitten. To assume deadly intent toward Snape, also assumes grave and serious consequences for his close and dear friend Remus. -Sirius's action were impulsive and extremely short sighted. No matter what side you are on, how could this statement be anything but true? -We don't know what Sirius said to Snape. He may have warned Snape of the mortal danger, but did so knowing that it would encourage rather than discourage Snape. (related to statements in the other thread) -We don't know if Sirius or anyone else was punished for this incident, but I think it's reasonable to assume they were. The true argument would be over the degree of punishment and how well it fit the circumstances. -The only thing sealing the entrance to the Shack that is an established fact is the Whomping Willow. -Finally, we simple don't have enough data about this incident to reach any solid conclusions regarding intent, motivation, execution, or punishment. We have the obvious overview as written, but are missing the underliying facts. Don't know if this helps, but none the less, here it is. bboy_mn From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Wed May 26 17:59:18 2004 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:59:18 -0000 Subject: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99503 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: ><> > But in between is the chapter about Firenze, where he tells Harry > that Hagrid's attempt is not working and it should be abandoned. > Dumbledore is forced from office. March blurs into April. Harry is > still constantly dreaming about the corridor and still dwelling on > his dream of being Voldemort. And there may have been more > than one. Canon is vague about it. We don't actually know how > many lessons or visions there were between the Rookwood > vision and Harry's look into Snape's past. > > But we do get a hint that an attempt which is not working may be > abandoned. now Shirley: Hmmm, that's interesting. I always assumed that Firenze's comment about Hagrid's attempt not working was related to Grawp. I thought he was telling Harry to tell Hagrid to give up on trying to 'civilize' Grawp. So, if that's not the case, what do *you* think he's hinting at? (because I'm still not clear on that from your discussion in this post) Shirley, who hopes she doesn't sound stupid with that question.... From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 26 18:08:45 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 18:08:45 -0000 Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths In-Reply-To: <20040526065836.9954.qmail@web50309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99504 > Pippin: > Greatness isn't synonymous with goodness, that's for sure. > > Justine: > It certainly can be, though. My last post (98769) went through the different synonyms and the nouns for which the adjective "great" has been used. I think, in the context of Jo's quote about Remus, greatness *does* seem to equal goodness. When Ollivander talks of great things, he also uses the adjective "terrible," and he's talking about an extremely evil wizard. When the Sorting Hat speaks of greatness, he's talking about placing Harry in Slytherin, and that house as a rather terrible connotation as well, doesn't it? When she uses the word for Remus, she's also calling him a wonderful teacher and a nice man. > > Here's a quote: > If you had to choose one teacher from your books to teach your child, who would it be and why? > A. It would be Professor Lupin, because he is kind, clever, and gives very interesting lessons. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/020 0-scholastic-chat.htm > Justine: > There's the word "kind." That's even better than great, because it has no negative connotations, and better than nice, because it strongly implies there's positive emotion behind it.< Pippin: I guess it all depends on where Jo draws the line between a trick and a con. Rowling has tricked me over and over again in the books by encouraging me to draw false conclusions from context. But she always gave the true information somewhere, even as she encouraged me to discount it. Context implied that Snape was stalking Harry in Book One, that Scabbers was in no way interesting, etc. But Hagrid did say that Snape wouldn't hurt a student. The lady in the creature shop did say that common rats don't live more than three years. But did I think, "Percy's *old* rat," or that Scabbers had had time to lose his toe and part of an ear before Percy even got him? Remus definitely has his admirable qualities, and Jo is always effusive about them in her interviews, but she also points out that he has his flaws. She makes them sound rather endearing, but they are flaws all the same. She has never said, as she has of Dumbledore, that Lupin is goodness. I take Jo's words in chat and interviews in the spirit of watching a stage magician do his tricks. When she bares her arm and says there's nothing up her sleeve, the odds are she's shaking something into her palm from the other one. Is Lupin terrible but great? He can use the patronus charm, and he uses wandless magic to make a light that doesn't go out in the presence of Dementors. Snape considers him even more dangerous than Sirius--in the shack he restrains Lupin, not Black. Is Lupin kind? Undoubtedly. But Jo is explicit that not everyone who is kind means well. Tom Riddle brags of his kindness to Ginny. Fake!Moody's kindness to Neville reminds Harry of Lupin, no less. Is he an effective teacher? Certainly, but so was Fake!Moody. "Mind you, we still learned loads." -- Dean Thomas, speaking of Fake!Moody OOP ch 12 Justine: > Here's one more: > Professor Lupin, who appears in the third book, is one of my favourite characters. He's a damaged person, literally and metaphorically. I think it's important for children to know that adults, too, have their problems, that they struggle. His being a werewolf is a metaphor for people's reactions to illness and disability. > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2002/110 2-fraser-scotsman.html Justine continued: > Remus is the wizarding world's version of a child who has been given a blood transfusion and has contracted AIDS, especially when thinking of the 80s when so many were afraid to even be in a room with someone who had it. Wouldn't turning Remus into a traitor equal telling these children that such reactions are acceptable and even right? Pippin: Would it? Our children have to live in a world where, unfortunately, people who have genuinely earned their admiration do dreadful things and bigots try to take advantage of it. A beloved athlete kills his wife. A financier who gave millions to charity goes to jail for cheating little old ladies of their savings. Does it prove "they" can't be trusted with women, or "they" are slimy and avaricious? Of course not. Does it make life easier for bigots? 'Fraid so. Is it going to help to refuse to talk about this or even admit that it occurs? I think we'll know Harry, Ron and Hermione have really stopped stereotyping werewolves when they're willing to consider each one as an individual, whatever Remus turns out to be. Pippin From drdara at yahoo.com Wed May 26 18:43:02 2004 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Progression of the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040526184302.15622.qmail@web60710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99505 I'm studying in early childhood education and we've learned that most kids stop learning to read around 8/9 and then they read to learn, so it's understandable if 7 year olds have problems reading them but love to be read out loud to them and listening to the tapes, I'm working with school agers this summer at the ymca and one of my activities I think will be acting out HP adventures or reading them and everyone gets a part to read. Danielle --- potioncat wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Tuesday, May 25, 2004, 3:27:50 AM, Jospehine > wrote: > > > > > But what would be interesting to monitor > > > would be if JK continues to write more mature > topics, will she > lose > > > her younger audience? > > Susanne wrote: > > Well, she might, but she is also losing some of > her audience > > by taking longer between the new installments. > > > > > Potioncat: > There are two time frames. My oldest became > intersted in Harry > Potter when he was about 10 or 11. The same age as > Harry was. Now > he's 15..the same age as Harry. If Harry had stayed > 11, my son > would have long forgotten him. Once the books are > written and the > story told, future kids will pick them up and grow > with them too. > > I also think these are books that kids will come > back to later on > and enjoy on a different level. > Potioncat > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed May 26 18:45:46 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 18:45:46 -0000 Subject: Assyrians still exist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99506 Sea Change wrote: > Perhaps Uncle Algie is more progressive than we think. In real life, > smack dab in the center of California is a city called Ceres, and a > decently large proportion of the people living there call themselves > Assyrian. They think they've still got a homeland and are probably > interested in the current events in Iraq. It's not much of a stretch > for me to suppose in the Wizarding world this feeling is much stronger. And there is also the town of Assyria, Barry County, Michigan (somewhere near Kalamazoo), whose population of 1,912 could rightly claim to be Assyrians too. It could be an obscure way of putting more American stuff in canon (why do I doubt that?). However, I suspect that JKR was in fact referring to the "original" region of the historical Assyria. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 26 18:47:26 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 18:47:26 -0000 Subject: Remus is the worst (Peter's motivation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99507 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: xani: > > I too am fascinated by Peter and the choices he made. Is he really > > Evil, or just weak? I would like to think that he had to make a > > terrible choice to try to save someone, but there is evidence > > against it. In the Shack, Peter defends his actions by saying that > Voldemort was going to kill him only. It would have made for a much > more tragic and complex scene if Peter had told Sirius that he had to > do what he did because the DE's had his mother, sibling, child. Geoff: But he couldn't because he hasn't got family. '"And Black standing there laughing with what was left of Pettigrew in front of him..... a heap of blood-stained robes and a few - a few fragments -" Fudge's voice stopped abruptly. There was the sound of five noses being blown. "Well, there you have it, Rosmerta," said Fudge thickly. "Black was taken away by twenty members of the Magical Law Enforcement Patrol and Pettigrew received the Order of Merlin, First Class, which I think was some comfort to his poor mother."' (POA "The Marauders' Map p.155 UK edition) >From which we deduce that PP was a bachelor - or possibly a widower. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed May 26 19:01:55 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:01:55 -0000 Subject: FILK: To Do A Dark Detention Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99508 Something about Umbridge and The Mikado just seem to go together..... To Do A Dark Detention To the tune of To Sit in Solemn Silence from Gilbert & Sullivan's The Mikado NOTE: I'm only using the later part of the song, a trio which begins "I Am So Proud" ? scroll down to the final stanza. Text and MIDI are here: http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/mikado/webopera/song10.html The above MIDI is untimed ? on this MIDI, the song begins at 2:21. http://www.broadwaymidi.com/opera/mikado.html Ideally, this song should be sung by three voices ? did anyone else serve detention with Umbridge besides Harry & Lee? If so, I haven't been able to find mention of it THE SCENE: Gryffindor Commons. HARRY & LEE JORDAN, singing very rapidly, share their experience of serving detention with Delores. HARRY & LEE: To do her dark detention is a drear dread drill As we hear her hemful hacking like a sharp shriek shrill We scribble every sentence with her cold cruel quill That bids our blood be bludgeoned to this fiend fulfill! To do her dark detention is a drear dread drill And hear her hemful hacking like a sharp shriek shrill We scribble every sentence with her cold cruel quill That bids our blood be bludgeoned to this fiend fulfill! A drear dread drill, A sharp shriek shrill, Her cold cruel quill, This fiend fulfill! To do a dark detention As we hear her hemful hacking And to scribble every sentence That bids our blood be bludgeoned to this fiend fulfill! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Wed May 26 19:02:43 2004 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:02:43 -0000 Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99509 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Pippin: > Is Lupin terrible but great? He can use the patronus charm, and > he uses wandless magic to make a light that doesn't go out in > the presence of Dementors. Snape considers him even more > dangerous than Sirius--in the shack he restrains Lupin, not > Black. Renee: At that moment, Sirius doesn't have a wand; the Trio has yet to take out Snape, whose wand Sirius uses later to untransform Wormtail together with Lupin. If Lupin is more dangerous at that point, it's because he's armed and Sirius is not. This doesn't necessarily mean Lupin is weaker than Sirius. But I don't think this passage can be used to prove he's stronger. Renee From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 26 19:07:26 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:07:26 -0000 Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99510 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > > Pippin: > > > Is Lupin terrible but great? He can use the patronus charm, and > > he uses wandless magic to make a light that doesn't go out in > > the presence of Dementors. Snape considers him even more > > dangerous than Sirius--in the shack he restrains Lupin, not > > Black. > > Renee: snip If Lupin is more dangerous at that point, it's > because he's armed and Sirius is not. > > This doesn't necessarily mean Lupin is weaker than Sirius. But I > don't think this passage can be used to prove he's stronger. Potioncat: He's also about to transform into a werewolf. From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Wed May 26 19:17:27 2004 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:17:27 -0000 Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99511 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > > wrote: > > > > Pippin: > > > > > Is Lupin terrible but great? He can use the patronus charm, and > > > he uses wandless magic to make a light that doesn't go out in > > > the presence of Dementors. Snape considers him even more > > > dangerous than Sirius--in the shack he restrains Lupin, not > > > Black. > > > > Renee: > snip > If Lupin is more dangerous at that point, it's > > because he's armed and Sirius is not. > > > > This doesn't necessarily mean Lupin is weaker than Sirius. But I > > don't think this passage can be used to prove he's stronger. > > > Potioncat: > He's also about to transform into a werewolf. Renee: True, but I don't think ropes, even magical ropes from a wand, are enough to restrain a werewolf. If it were that easy... From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed May 26 19:16:47 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 20:16:47 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Sorting Hat (Was: The permanent problem with Slytherin House) References: <1085544567.6677.49558.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004701c44355$fd9e2ee0$264c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 99512 Lady MacBeth wrote: >Salazar Slytherin was not that far off that same mark - he wanted what was >good for the WIZARDING people. Muggles, especially in that time, were a >THREAT. Did he honestly have any reason to believe that muggle-born >students wouldn't bring muggle influence to Hogwarts with them? No. Let me pose some scary questions about a scary scenario (it's not something I suspect actually happened in the Potterverse, but I think it brings into focus some of the thought processes of pureblood wizards) Just suppose. From tomorrow, 99 out of every 100 children born in our world (a higher proportion if you think there are fewer wizards in the Potterverse) is suddenly born suffering from a genetic disorder. The symptoms of it are - a severe learning disability which prevents them from doing mentally many of the things that we can - dramatically shortened lifespans, perhaps a half to a third of our own - much greater physical fragility: a trauma from which we would walk away would kill them These "new humans" are capable of self support in a basic way. They are also capable of being conscious of their difference from the "old humans" which will in turn make them bitter and resentful of those differences. Someone with two "old human" parents will be born "old human". Someone with two "new human" parents will almost certainly be born "new human". Now then 1. How long before our existing "old human" cultures and societies are irretrievably compromised and break down? 2. How long before "old humans" begin to seek one another out as prospective mates? 3. How long before "new humans" begin to persecute "old humans" and the "old humans" have to lead secret lives? I would say "not very long" to all three of those questions. >But, like the Nazi party, Slytherin house has gotten carried away. It's >spawned leaders like Voldemort who push to the extremes and walk the fine >line between genius and insanity. It's taken a good but flawed goal and >twisted it into a dangerous mechanism against other people. People today >can claim to be Nationalists, or Socialists, but they are hesitant at best >to even admit that they see any good in the Nazi party. The same has I'd have to say that I am certainly both a nationalist and a socialist and consider that the Nazi party were neither, they were from the beginning a bunch of evil scumbags who should have been stamped out with extreme prejudice. But I know that we're not supposed to talk about politics here... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From LadySawall at aol.com Wed May 26 19:27:25 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:27:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4634 Message-ID: <78.57f92bf4.2de6499d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99513 In a message dated 05/26/2004 12:35:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: Lady Macbeth: But, like the Nazi party, Slytherin house has gotten carried away. It's spawned leaders like Voldemort who push to the extremes and walk the fine line between genius and insanity. It's taken a good but flawed goal and twisted it into a dangerous mechanism against other people. People today can claim to be Nationalists, or Socialists, but they are hesitant at best to even admit that they see any good in the Nazi party. The same has happened to Slytherin house. It's not a "bad" thing for wizards to be called "purebloods". The Weasleys are purebloods. We all noticed in Order of the Phoenix that at least one Weasley took his ambition for success to the point that he alienated himself from the rest of the family. The Blacks are purebloods. The Blacks were notorious for their various goals in ambition. The Malfoys are purebloods - and not at all lacking in ambition. But, in their world, it IS a bad thing to be called "Slytherin". Jo Ann: Every ideology has its negative side, and can get twisted and used to oppress an unpopular or disadvantaged group. Most of them, quite simply, fail to take into account the realities of human nature. Marxism looks *great* on paper (in fact it's got some ideas frighteningly similar to that of democracy.) I tend to equate Salazar with Karl Marx--a guy who sincerely wanted to do good, and had some theoretically sound ideas, but who failed to see the practical weaknesses in his theories and how they could be exploited by the ruthless. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadySawall at aol.com Wed May 26 19:27:29 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:27:29 EDT Subject: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99514 In a message dated 05/26/2004 6:52:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Lee writes: Like I said, Snape is a complex character, indeed, so, what are his reasons for being so horrible to not just Harry but the Gryffindor kids in general? Could it be that, as an adult, he feels he can wield power over the house from whence his tormentors came? Jo Ann: Something hit me last night after running across a very interesting piece of fanfic on the Sugar Quill, called "They are the Marauders, and they Hunt in a Pack." Much has been made of the fact that Snape hated James, envied him, and resented being in debt to him. This undoubtedly extended to the other three Marauders, and quite possibly to the House of Gyrffindor as a whole. What doesn't often seem to get brought up is the strong possibility that (though I'm sure he would throw himself off the Astronomy Tower before admitting it) he was probably scared to death of him, too. As an aside, this is not to say that I consider Snape weak or a coward. Yes, he and James may have been equals or near-equals individually; but with his Marauders behind him, James always had the advantage, and even if the Marauders weren't around at a given moment, you could be sure they would hear about anything that happened to James. Snape undoubtedly found this out the hard way fairly early on. Which to me, goes a long way toward explaining his reactions to Harry. Harry looks just like James. He's in James' House. He shares some of James' talents. Some of Harry's actions, and more importantly, the reactions of people around Harry, can be misinterpreted as James-like. By the time he got to Hogwarts for the first time, he'd already acquired one hanger-on (Ron), and by the end of his First Year he had another one (Hermione) plus a potential third (Neville.) Might as well call them the Marauders: Mark II. So what do you think is Snape's gut-instinct reaction to Harry? Hatred, envy, resentment--and fear. Think how much that would piss him off, to find himself irrationally scared of a child. Probably perfectly well aware of where it comes from and why, but unable to shake it off, just as Sirius knew quite well that Harry wasn't James, but treated him as though he was by reflex... And it would be a vicious downward spiral. Harry started out more or less powerless and without a bias toward Snape one way or the other; but the more powerful he becomes and the more the two of them clash, the more *genuine* reasons Snape has to fear him, and the worse his attitude will get...thus, the more he'll pick on Harry himself and Harry's friends and Housemates, especially those that present easy targets. Yeah, he's become what he hates. He may be aware of that, too. But who do you think he'll blame? Jo Ann ...who thinks DD's greatest mistake re. Snape is not insisting that the guy get into therapy! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadySawall at aol.com Wed May 26 19:28:18 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:28:18 EDT Subject: What is with the "Prank" ? Message-ID: <1ab.24c016df.2de649d2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99515 In a message dated 05/26/2004 6:52:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Amber writes: I would not be surprised if suicide was not on his mind even before the prank....and even if it hadn't got to that point yet...this is the boy who grew up to spy on Voldemort, for whatever reason, and if he had to take a lethal risk to get the torment to stop, or just out of revenge, I wouldn't put it past him.... And Sirius walks up to him and says, "If you want to know, just prod the knot on the Whomping Willow." In front of witnesses, probably. ( James heard about it, not heard it. From who? ) If Snape dies under that tree or comes back to say what he saw and who sent him to see it, Sirius and Lupin, and he believes James was responsible too, will get what he believes what they deserve for at least five years of hell. Expulsion. But fate or Murphy's Law or whatever intervenes. James saves his life, and it gets hushed up. And Snape becomes a DE, and you know the rest. Now for heaven's sake, someone prove me wrong. Jo Ann: Sorry, I think it's a coolly evil idea. I love the perversity of the thought that Snape hates Harry because his blood debt to James, carried on through Harry, is the only thing stopping him from ending his own miserable life. And though I strongly suspect it's not going to turn out that way, and ultimately I really wouldn't want it to (I *like* Severus,) I can't really cite anything from canon that disproves it. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadySawall at aol.com Wed May 26 19:28:42 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:28:42 EDT Subject: Sirius vs. Snape Message-ID: <1cc.21e85f89.2de649ea@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99516 In a message dated 05/26/2004 12:35:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Marianne writes: > It's always interested me that the two characters who spark the most heated discussions and who are always pitted against each other to this level are Sirius and Snape. Not Harry and Draco. Not Harry and Snape. Not Snape and James. Not Voldemort and anyone. These two. I'm not counting SHIPS because that's another kettle of fish... Jo Ann: I suspect it has a lot to do with the bully/victim, popular/unpopular dynamic between the two. It exists in some of those other relationships, but the story of the Prank and the Pensieve scene highlight it so starkly that it's impossible to ignore. I think it's easy for someone who identifies strongly with either type of person to get caught up in defending one or the other. I've seen those two referred to as flip sides of a coin (even seen it speculated that Snape might miss Sirius in some perverse way, wondering how a one-sided coin can exist.) I tend to think of them as cold gray and warm gray, both equal parts light and dark, complementary but opposing forces... And again, I suspect JKR may have set them against each other that way intentionally. It's weird how she can play up the struggle between good and evil as though they were absolutes, and have an almost entirely unsympathetic villain like Voldemort, but at the same time confound us with a couple of mixed bags like S&S. Jo Ann ...who is starting to scare herself with the number of outgoing HPFGU posts piling up on her desktop today. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadySawall at aol.com Wed May 26 19:27:36 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:27:36 EDT Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths Message-ID: <9b.48667f17.2de649a8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99517 In a message dated 05/25/2004 6:20:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Renee writes: > She could. But in that case, she'd be a liar. In the Albert Hall interview, quoted in post 98769 by Justine, JKR called Lupin 'a great man', and the other things she says about him confirm the positive connotation this phrase has (if anyone can give me a quote where it's used in a purely negative way, to denote a thoroughly bad guy, I may have to change my mind about it). Melanie: > My impression is, that JKR has a better opinion of Lupin than he actually deserves. Which is a testimony to the power of her characterisation: In RL the person you admire can be the one your neighbour detests while still being the same person (I'm not talking about situations where the neighbour knows more about him). JKR has given Lupin a number of qualities she admires and one huge flaw. Some of her readers think the flaw overshadows the good qualities. But to me, it's apparent that she doesn't. And Jo Ann: This is why I tend to be very cautious about accepting JKR's statements at face value. She may or may not be trying to put one over on us, but there's also no guarantee that her definition of "a great man" (or "a deeply horrible person" or any of her other descriptors) is going to agree with my own, or yours, or the guy down the street's. When we get to the end of the stories, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see JKR saying in interviews, "Well, there you have it...now you know everything there is to know about Character X, don't you agree that he's a (insert quality here) type of person?" And a large contingent of her fans replying, "Umm...no." Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saitaina at frontiernet.net Wed May 26 19:24:03 2004 From: saitaina at frontiernet.net (Saitaina) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 12:24:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Sorting Hat (Was: The permanent problem with Slytherin House) References: <1085544567.6677.49558.m20@yahoogroups.com> <004701c44355$fd9e2ee0$264c6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <000901c44357$0593bb00$01fea8c0@domain.invalid> No: HPFGUIDX 99518 Ffred wrote: <3. How long before "new humans" begin to persecute "old humans" and the "old humans" have to lead secret lives? I would say "not very long" to all three of those questions.> Actually, it would be a bit longer then one would think. Genetic anomalies are not something that people accept at face value. If, from tomorrow, all these children were born, they wouldn't get out of the hospital. Science would demand awnsers of them, doctors would need to be assured they were actually fit enough to survive in 'our' world, parents would either be too ashamed, or too afraid (various reasons: their health, outside reaction, ect) to let them out. These children, the first generation would live their lives under our scrutiny. They wouldn't be given a chance to band together to persecute us for several generations because we would be persecuting them. It would be the same story as the wizarding world yes, but the secret lives to be lead, would be by the 'new humans'. The same reason the muggles fear wizards is the same reaction "Old humans" would have to the new. We can't understand what is diffrent. Saitaina **** "Potter, if a sixteen year old has perfect skin, that's a pretty good indication that he's dabbling in the Dark Arts." http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From LadySawall at aol.com Wed May 26 19:28:00 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:28:00 EDT Subject: Sirius vs. Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99519 In a message dated 05/26/2004 11:44:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Potioncat writes: Snape has set himself up to be distrusted by Gryffidors. But I'll bet if you had a group of "good" Slytherins, Snape could lead them. I'd bet a number of teachers would follow him too. Jo Ann: I'll bet you're right, or at the very least that they would work with him effectively...the other Heads of Houses all backed him up without hesitation in CoS when he called Lockhart's bluff, and nobody seemed surprised or taken aback either that he had come up with the idea or that McGonagall, Flitwick and Sprout followed his lead, in spite of the fact that he's the youngest and probably the least-liked of the four. Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed May 26 19:42:26 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:26 -0000 Subject: Remus is the worst (Peter's motivation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99520 > Geoff: > But he couldn't because he hasn't got family. > '"And Black standing there laughing with what was left of Pettigrew > in front of him..... a heap of blood-stained robes and a few - a few fragments -" Fudge's voice stopped abruptly. There was the sound of five noses being blown. "Well, there you have it, Rosmerta," said Fudge thickly. "Black was taken away by twenty members of the Magical Law Enforcement Patrol and Pettigrew received the Order of Merlin, First Class, which I think was some comfort to his poor mother."' > (POA "The Marauders' Map p.155 UK edition) > From which we deduce that PP was a bachelor - or possibly a widower. Mandy here: His Mother isn't family? I know what you're driving at, and Peter most likely doesn't have a wife and kids, but his mum could have been threatened for all we know. Cheers Mandy. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 26 20:06:11 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 20:06:11 -0000 Subject: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99521 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > > now Shirley: > Hmmm, that's interesting. I always assumed that Firenze's comment about Hagrid's attempt not working was related to Grawp. I thought he was telling Harry to tell Hagrid to give up on trying to 'civilize' Grawp. > > So, if that's not the case, what do *you* think he's hinting at? > (because I'm still not clear on that from your discussion in this > post) I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Trying to explain Jo's convoluted plot lines is a real challenge! Especially when it's all hypothetical. But she's admitted that she purposefully drops information into "innocent" chapters. I agree that Firenze was sending a message to Hagrid about Grawp. But sometimes, when it would give too much away to have Harry wonder about something directly, Jo seems to drop a hint to one mystery in the story-line of another. So I wonder if that element was not put in the story to give the reader, not Harry, a hint that there might be a good reason why Snape would stop the lessons. Pippin From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 20:07:32 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 20:07:32 -0000 Subject: Lily. Was: Prank revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99522 --- > > Renee: > I think, too, that in assessing Snape's use of the M-word, we > have to remember that at this time although Voldemort had > begun his rise to power, he was not yet openly advocating or > committing atrocities. He might even have been making a great > show of condemning them, similar to Lucius Malfoy in CoS. > What I'm saying is the context for the word might have been > different. It might not yet carry the implication of violence that > it would acquire later. > > Ok guys, I'm a bit behind in the posts, so I hope this hasn't been mentioned before, but what makes you say that LV wasn't advocating or committing atrocities, or moreover, that he may have been condemning them? In Ch 1, pgs 10-11 in SS, DD says twice that the WW has had precious little to celebrate in the past 11 years. The WW was frightened of him so much for the past 11 years that DD's been trying to convince them to call him by his real name, Voldemort. So obviously, regardless of if teens at Hogwarts were being recruited, LV was already doing his thing when the Fab Four et al were still in school. Susan :-) From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed May 26 21:08:59 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:08:59 -0000 Subject: Introducing Accio UK 2005 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99523 Introducing Accio UK 2005: The first Harry Potter Conference in the UK. Accio UK is delighted to announce that our first conference will take place over the weekend of 29-31st July 2005 at Reading University, England. Accio 2005 will be a friendly event, bringing together adult Harry Potter fans and academics to discuss all aspects of J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter books, in what we believe is the first such conference in the UK. Planned events include presentations, panels, speeches, games, Quidditch, a banquet, and informal discussions into the small hours! Accio UK aims to foster an intimate atmosphere so that members can get to know fellow fans without being overwhelmed. For this reason, we are offering attending membership as an all-inclusive package ? with all accommodation and all meals, including the feast, being part of the ticket price and a secondary option which allows members to arrange their own overnight accommodation but still share in everything other than breakfast. We are now open for registration and payments are acceptable by Paypal or UK cheque. Places are limited by the size of the venue, so early registration is encouraged. We are also offering an early bird discount of ?20 off the full price which we will honour until Halloween 2004. We recognise that some fans might wish to spread the costs of membership, and for this reason we are offering an instalment plan in which membership is payable in three quarterly payments. We are contemplating adding optional bolt-on day trips or even a mini-tour to the event; so watch this space for further details. Although this event is sponsored in part by HPfGU, further discussion of Accio should not take place here. Instead, we'd like to summon you to our website http://www.accio.org.uk to find out more about Accio." Meanwhile, please register at the Accio 2005 volunteer Yahoo Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpukcon-volunteers if you are interested in volunteering for the convention Ali Hewison Accio Chair From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 26 21:21:03 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:21:03 -0000 Subject: Remus is the worst (Peter's motivation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: Mandy: > His Mother isn't family? > > I know what you're driving at, and Peter most likely doesn't have a > wife and kids, but his mum could have been threatened for all we know. Geoff: Not in an immediate sense. If I meet someone and ask, "Have you any family?" I am actually asking if they are married or have children. From tmar78 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 21:27:05 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imperio! In-Reply-To: <1085602024.6508.76427.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040526212705.67795.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99525 Susan: And slightly OT, it struck me as odd that Bella and her gang, who were truly mad, got to have a trial, whereas, Sirius, who's proven time and again, to _not_ hold the same views re:purebloods as his family did, still gets sent to Azkaban without a trial. Tyler: Technically, Bella & her gang didn't get a trial. >From what I recall, the "trial" basically consisted of Crouch Sr. asking the jury if they thought their crimes were deserving of a life sentence. No evidence was presented, no one argued the defense's case. Not really a trial. I think it was more a chance for Crouch Sr. to publicly wash his hands of his son so his own reputation might be spared. Didn't work too well though. Susan: Besides Percy, who's an excellent candidate, Tyler: Well, I don't know how likely it is but I'd like to see either Ron or Hermione Imperio'd. It would be interesting to see how Harry would react to fighting one or both of his best friends, especially if their using lethal curses, inadvertently putting Harry in a situation where he might have to give a response in kind. Or, failing that, how about Molly? Now there'd be a twist noone would see coming! Last but not least, Snape! Just imagine him attacking Harry and then afterwards (after throwing the curse off) trying to convince him that he didn't mean it. Snape: "LV made me do it; honest!" Harry: "Yeah, right. See you in hell" (Harry fires a reductor curse at his head) Sorry, not trying to offend any of the Snape-fans! I don't want to see him die either. I think he's cool, in a creepy sort of way ===== A friend is a person with whom I may be sincere. Before him, I may think aloud ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 26 21:51:01 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:51:01 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's rise to power Re: Lily. Was: Prank revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99526 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > --- Pippin, not Renee: > > I think, too, that in assessing Snape's use of the M-word, we have to remember that at this time although Voldemort had begun his rise to power, he was not yet openly advocating or committing atrocities. He might even have been making a great show of condemning them, similar to Lucius Malfoy in CoS. What I'm saying is the context for the word might have been different. It might not yet carry the implication of violence that it would acquire later. Susan: > Ok guys, I'm a bit behind in the posts, so I hope this hasn't been mentioned before, but what makes you say that LV wasn't advocating or committing atrocities, or moreover, that he may have been condemning them? In Ch 1, pgs 10-11 in SS, DD says twice that the WW has had precious little to celebrate in the past 11 years. The WW was frightened of him so much for the past 11 years that DD's been trying to convince them to call him by his real name, Voldemort. So obviously, regardless of if teens at Hogwarts were being recruited, LV was already doing his thing when the Fab Four et al were still in school. > Pippin: "There were quite a few people, before Voldemort showed his true colors, who thought he had the right idea about things...They got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first." --Sirius, OOP ch 6 "I bet my parents thought" puts the time of Regulus's joining after Sirius became estranged from his parents at age sixteen. So I'd guess that when Snape and Sirius were fifteen, about the fifth year of Voldemort's rise to power, the Dark Lord was still keeping his intentions hidden, and his agents were publically deploring violence against Muggleborns the way Lucius Malfoy does in CoS. Dumbledore says in GoF ch 30 that the years of Voldemort's ascent to power were marked by disappearances. Voldemort did a lot of his dirty work in secret. If the Blacks, a wealthy pureblood family, didn't know what was going on, how could Snape? Dumbledore, speaking after the fact on the Dursley's doorstep, would not want to ignore the suffering that had been taking place before the wizarding world at large became aware of it. Pippin From garybec at yahoo.com Wed May 26 14:20:48 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:20:48 -0000 Subject: Progression of the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99527 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rmmiller95" wrote: > Jospehine wrote: > > Each book has since become not only darker, but more mature, > > dealing with "grown up" issues. I know that JK has progressed as a > > writer, but is she intending the books to grow with her *original* > > fans. > > But what would be interesting to monitor > > would be if JK continues to write more mature topics, will she > > lose her younger audience? I personally cannot see an average 10 > > year old now enjoying much of GOF or OOTP, nevermind understanding > > its complexities. Will these younger readers bypass Harry > > Potter for another author? How 'grown up' can she get before the > > books are too adult for children, and will she make Book 6 > > inaccessible for them? > > > Becki's thoughts; Just because they are classified as 'Childrens Books', does not mean that they are for pre-readers. You don't have to be in elementary school to be catagorized as a child. Some children are better readers than others and fortunatly there are many books out there for all. My 9 year old read the last 2 in a mater of a couple of weeks, and would have finished them much faster if other things had not gotten in her way, (school). The brilliance of these books is that a child of 9 or 10 can read them and enjoy them in a way that a 9 or 10 year old enjoy's them. They can then again re-read the very same book several years later and see them with a whole different prospective. Becki From mnaperrone at aol.com Wed May 26 16:45:11 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 16:45:11 -0000 Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths In-Reply-To: <20040526065836.9954.qmail@web50309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Justine wrote: > Pippin: > Greatness isn't synonymous with goodness, that's for sure. > > Justine: > Remus is the wizarding world's version of a child who has been given a blood transfusion and has contracted AIDS, especially when thinking of the 80s when so many were afraid to even be in a room with someone who had it. Wouldn't turning Remus into a traitor equal telling these children that such reactions are acceptable and even right? Ally: Not in the least. First of all, if she does have Remus do something wrong, it will definitely be written in a way that reflects well on Remus. A romantic way, just the way Sirius' flaw of impetuousness resulted in his death, but he was doing something "heroic" when it happened. Did Sirius make a mistake when he ran off? Yes. But JKR wrote it in such a way that its hard to hold it against him. If Remus ends up doing something against the Order, I guarantee JKR will take the same kind of care to not make him look to bad. It will be a one time mistake he feels bad about and tries to correct (maybe too late), but it will be there. While JKR has said Remus is a wonderful man, she has said he's a wonderful man with a flaw, and consider some her principal themes: people are not easily categorized and can possess good and bad qualities; and a person must have constant vigilance to make the right choices in life. To me, having Remus make a mistake that hurts the Order b/c of his flaw would fit very well into these themes. Ally From mimi.barker at mindspring.com Wed May 26 14:59:53 2004 From: mimi.barker at mindspring.com (Mimi Barker) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:59:53 -0000 Subject: Life Debts In-Reply-To: <20040525164005.13198.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > Mimi Barker wrote: > > Lives Harry has saved: > > What others have I forgotten? > > Don't forget GoF with the tournament: > > The underwater task (but does that count?) If it does, we can add Ron and Gabrielle to the list, but I'm not sure that their lives were truly at stake. > The help that Crouch Jr!Moody gives (what about that one?) What specifically are you thinking about here? He helped Harry accomplish the tasks and win, but did his help actually save Harry's life at any point? Mimi From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed May 26 19:36:35 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:36:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99530 | From: mnaper2001 [mailto:mnaperrone at aol.com] | Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 22:27 PM | | Snow wrote (in #99427): | > When DD learned about Snape's refusal to further teach Harry, DD | > did not pursue it. Could that have been because the lesson that | > needed to be taught, was taught? (IMO) Harry was being taught it | > just wasn't occlumency. Harry learned exactly what DD wanted him | > to know. Harry needed to be put through enough ordeals in an | > attempt to teach him restraint and control over his emotions. | > | | Ally: | | That's an interesting theory. I did suspect occlumency was a set up | by DD, but I was thinking that he wanted Snape and Harry to see each | other's memories and learn that they had some things in common. In | my mind, it was building to the two of them working together in the | way that DD has emphasized is necessary for success. | | But I think I might like your theory better (although I suppose that | ours aren't necessarily mutually exclusive). But what did Harry | learn - that his father was less than perfect? I'm not sure I see | the connection between this lesson and his ability to fight off V in | the end. [Lee] I got the impression that Dd didn't force the continuation of the Occlumency because of the grudge still held by Snape. Unable to teach Harry himself because of the fear of VL using Harry against him, Dd had to hope that Harry would have what it took in the final analysis. This is all supposition, of course. :-) But, remember, Dd in his long monolog indicated that he had made many mistakes/miscalculations; they, I'm sure, weren't' the first and won't be the last. Goes back to that being human and imperfect thing. And, when Harry finally assimilates everything Dd tried to tell him (I don't think he got the half of it in the grief mode he was in), I think he's going to realize that, for all Dd's mistakes, it took a lot of courage to admit to those mistakes. Disillusionment? Yes, definitely. But that's part of life. I think that once Harry gets through the burst of hormones which is playing havoc with his perceptions and emotions, he's probably going to admire Dd a bit more...not the idol-on-a-pedestal type, but admire real courage. And, hopefully, he'll appreciate Dd's honesty and glean something of the love that Dd had/has for him. Just my little knut-worth. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) (With a non-hurting head on her shoulders.) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed May 26 20:00:05 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 16:00:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99531 | Geoff to Me: | I see what you're saying and where you're coming from. However, | although it would seem that Snape is trying to protect Harry, he is | doing it in a rather disgruntled manner. [Lee]: Oh--Absolutely! No question about that. I can see his thought...Sure, I'll rescue the brat, but I want him to have a little taste of what was done--or almost done to me! | | '"Yes.." said Dumbledore dreamily, "Funny, the way people's minds | work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's | debt... I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year | because he felt that would make him and your father quits. Then he | could go back to hating your father's memory in peace..."' | | (PS "The Man with Two Faces" p.217 UK edition) | | In COS, Snape probably feels that he has repaid the debt but still | needs to keep an eye on Harry but still has a need to twist the knife | in the wound - look at his snide comments to Harry in the later | books. It's high time he learned to get this grudge out of his | system; it's affecting his whole outlook on life. [Lee]: Ain't that the truth! And I can't help but feel that this grudge-holding thing is going to be either Snape's downfall or, and one can only hope, Snape will realize that it's not doing him any good and move forward to something better. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From Snarryfan at aol.com Wed May 26 21:13:05 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:13:05 -0000 Subject: A question about Fudge ( Fans of ESE!Fudge, you could like that) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99532 I posted this in answer for another post, but then the Sirius/Severus thread blown up, so... :) What I asked was this: Directly from POA, Page387, chap 21: "What amazes me most is the behavior of the dementors...you've really no idea what made them retreat, Snape?" "No, Minister...by the time I come 'round they were heading back to their positions at the entrances..." There, he said he only saw them go away after he's awaked. Future! Harry can testify, he came after the Patronus' departure ( And if we think to that, after his awakening, he had to free himself, see Ron, conjure the stretcher, and find where everyone is gone, it must take a moment.) Sirius and Hermione fainted before Harry. Future!Harry saw the scene from afar, but he can't really said what he saw to Fudge. So the only witness of the near-Kiss are Harry and the dementors. But Page 421 (chap 22): "And the dementors?" said Dumbledore."They'll be removed from the school, I trust?" "Oh yes, they'll have to go,"said Fudge, running his fingers distractedly through his hair."Never dreamed they'd attempt to administer the Kiss on an innocent boy..." Nobody saw the dementor trying to Kiss Harry ( safe the other dementors, are they able to talk ?), every one was blacked out, so how Fudge could know that ? Christelle. From Schlobin at aol.com Wed May 26 22:36:14 2004 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 18:36:14 EDT Subject: Rosmerta Message-ID: <190.2a2d9d37.2de675de@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99533 Hi, all...just found out that Rosmerta is a Celtic and Roman goddess..Celtic goddess of plenty and fertility..... Susan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 26 22:37:47 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:37:47 -0000 Subject: What is with the "Prank" ? In-Reply-To: <139.2f8702bb.2de5ba3f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > But why would he have fallen for Sirius's bait if he knew? >Well.... If Snape wanted to kill himself, surely he'd use a potion instead. And how, in your scenario, would James or Lupin have been implicated? Not that it refutes your theory but there's another possibility/ Snape could have been under the Imperius curse. He might not know what had happened to him...students weren't usually taught how it feels. If the curse was lifted by the shock of seeing the werewolf, no one would know why Snape had gone into the tunnel. That would, of course, make it murder. I don't believe Sirius was capable of that, whatever Snape thinks. I can see Sirius killing somebody in a passion, but not in cold blood. But EverSoEvil!Lupin ... As long as Snape was watching the willow there couldn't be any more marauder escapades. That gives Lupin a stronger motive than Sirius. It would have been easy for Lupin to suggest to Sirius that it would serve Snape right if he *did* find out where Lupin went every month. It would have been easy for Dumbledore to believe that Snape had found his way into the willow on his own, given his propensity for spying. Dumbledore would not consider Lupin guilty for the werewolf's deed. All it needed was for Sirius to keep quiet, and James not to interfere, and the whole thing could have been hushed up as a tragic accident, or a blunder of Snape's. Pippin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed May 26 22:55:19 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:55:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99535 Potioncat: (who also served in a war zone): An officer tells a subordinate that they'll continue later. The officer comes back and finds the subordinate reading his personal papers. Something would happen to that subordinate! Neri: Heh, definitely! Snape's authority problem here is that he had gave Harry so many punishments in the past, usually unjustified, that now when it IS justified he has nothing left in storage that will make any impression. Potioncat: At this point throwing Harry out makes sense. Neri: Agreed. Potioncat: If Snape goes to DD and reports the incident and DD says to stop lessons. Then Snape has not aborted his mission. Neri: Well, he still failed in it. Most officers I know would do just about anything to succeed in such a critical mission. Flunking it because they didn't manage to control their subordinates would be the worst disgrace in their career. But I agree: the responsibility in such a case is on DD. Potioncat: If Snape keeps quiet until much later...say just before the DoM battle, then he did abort his mission and was a poor commander. Neri: Worse than just a "poor commander" where I come from, especially when a comrade got killed as a result (and many more might have). Potioncat: We don't really know which way it happened. Too bad no one officially told Harry that the mission had changed. Neri: Agreed. They (Snape or DD, whoever was responsible) left Harry alone and open to attack with no warning. Potioncat: Also, not to carry the comparison too far, but Occlumency was a Training session, not a combat mission. Neri: Technically you are correct. Practically, Harry's mind was a front position. A most critical and the least defended position. Potioncat: And if someone's duty was to be at a certain place to give the arriving general a briefing, I'd want him there! Someone needed to stay and at this point, Black was really the best choice. The others were better suited by training to go to the MoM. Neri: Here we arrive at another rant I have, not about Snape but about DD. Read this carefully: OotP, Ch.37 : "When, however, you did not return from your trip into the Forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's. He alerted certain Order members at once.' Dumbledore heaved a great sigh and continued, 'Alastor Moody, Nymphadora Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt and Remus Lupin were at Headquarters when he made contact. All agreed to go to your aid at once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at Headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment. In the meantime he, Professor Snape, intended to search the Forest for you. 'But Sirius did not wish to remain behind while the others went to search for you." Do you believe this? DD, the supreme commander of the forces of Good, does not have an immediate way of communication with his own HQ??? Would someone please give him a two-way mirror, or a portrait of Phineas Nigelus, or just a cell phone??? What would have happened had DD got delayed and taken an hour, not five minutes, to reach 12GP? Was Sirius supposed to wait for him all that time while his fellows are butchered in the DoM? Had DD got a message from 12GP (or better, directly from Snape) he could have apparate, from wherever he was, straight to the DoM, arriving at the same time the other order members had arrived there, and most likely saving Sirius' life and preventing Harry from nearly getting killed. And where were Arthur, Molly, Diggle, Vance and all the rest??? Why don't they have and immediate way to summon them to any place? Should they ask Hermione for fake Galeons with a Proteus charm on them? Ah well, JKR is clearly not versed in basic military communication procedures. But if you want to blame it on the characters, DD is your man, not Sirius. Potioncat: Snape has set himself up to be distrusted by Gryffidors. But I'll bet if you had a group of "good" Slytherins, Snape could lead them. Neri: Could be, but I'm not that sure. Would they trust him when taking on Lucius Malfoy, say, after he'd known to be Malfoy's lap dog for years? Potioncat: I'd bet a number of teachers would follow him too. Neri: Could be. The teachers had a chance to work with him as equals. However, it is not your relationships with the person during peacetime that matters. You might like each other or hate each other, it's almost irrelevant. The question is: do you absolutely trust him to come and get you out of a difficult spot under fire? Potioncat: I'd still rather have Snape protecting the rear than Black. At least I'd know he would be there while Black might be charging on to the front. Neri: No person is a perfect soldier, but I've met the Sirius type and the Snape type during my service. The Sirius type might not be the right man in certain positions but a priceless asset in others. The Snape type I wouldn't want on my platoon at all. He'd ruin any mutual trust in it long before the first shot. Dumbledore (in SS/PS, ch. 1): "I would trust Hagrid with my life" Yes, Hagrid is another emotional, not-very-reliable Gryffindor. And when it comes to guarding someone's life, I'd take an emotional Gryphindor over a sophisticated Slytherin any time. Neri From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed May 26 23:05:57 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 23:05:57 -0000 Subject: Chapter 18: Dumbledore's Army In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99536 Marianne wrote: > Hermione has a lack of empathy towards others that I find a little > > off-putting. Maybe she's simply at that stage in her teen life > >where she thinks she knows it all. > And Bugaloo37 replied: > Once again I feel compelled to defend Hermione. IMO, I do not see a > lack of empathy on her part concerning Sirius (and by the way I love > Sirius too). She seems to be the only one that senses Sirius' > loneliness. Keep in mind when she refers to the members of the Order > being around, she is also referring to Remus, a close friend. Marianne: Granted, but that's part of my point. Remus is a close friend, and maybe the only one of the Order who is. Hermione seems to lump all of the Order together as equally adept (or willing) to alleviate Sirius' loneliness. Bugaloo37: The > fact that Sirius sees Harry as being another "James" is something > that does not occur to our two boys-but it does not get past our > girl. Marianne: Ah, the Hermione/Molly chorus! Harry as another James is certainly one way to look at Sirius' perception of Harry. The only evidence we're shown that this might be true is in the comment Sirius makes after Harry shoots down the idea of Sirius coming up for a Hogwarts weekend. Other than that, we simply have to take Hermione's and Molly's words that this is indeed the case. So, maybe it's really not Hermione that I find irritating in these instances. Maybe it's that I'd like JKR to actually show me through a character's actions and words what's going on in his/her head, and not use the shorthand version of having some other character uttering statements to sum things up in a neat, little package. If JKR had written this characteristic in Neville or Luna, and not Hermione, I'd find it annoying in them, too. bugaloo37: I am not saying that Hermione is perfect. Her efforts > concerning the house-elfs are way-off. But as a loyal supporter of > Harry, her importance to him should not be questioned. I guess what > I am saying is, that as long as she continues to provide Harry with > much needed support, her small quirks of character should be > overlooked. Marianne: Oh, I'm sure I'm picking on Hermione here for pretty small sins. On the whole, I really don't have a problem with her. Nor do I doubt her support of Harry, and she has proven herself to be an asset to him time and time again. What I'm looking to see is if JKR really does intend to have Hermione's judgement or assumptions take a spectacularly bad turn in one of the later books, as some folks have predicted. Marianne From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 26 23:22:30 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 23:22:30 -0000 Subject: A question about Fudge ( Fans of ESE!Fudge, you could like that) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99537 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evita2fr" wrote: > I posted this in answer for another post, but then the Sirius/Severus > thread blown up, so... :) > > What I asked was this: > > Directly from POA, Page387, chap 21: > > "What amazes me most is the behavior of the dementors...you've really > no idea what made them retreat, Snape?" > > "No, Minister...by the time I come 'round they were heading back to > their positions at the entrances..." > > There, he said he only saw them go away after he's awaked. Future!Harry can testify, he came after the Patronus' departure ( And if we think to that, after his awakening, he had to free himself, see Ron, conjure the stretcher, and find where everyone is gone, it must take a moment.) > > Sirius and Hermione fainted before Harry. > > Future!Harry saw the scene from afar, but he can't really said what he saw to Fudge. > > So the only witness of the near-Kiss are Harry and the dementors. > > But Page 421 (chap 22): > > "And the dementors?" said Dumbledore."They'll be removed from the > school, I trust?" > "Oh yes, they'll have to go,"said Fudge, running his fingers > distractedly through his hair."Never dreamed they'd attempt to > administer the Kiss on an innocent boy..." > > > Nobody saw the dementor trying to Kiss Harry ( safe the other > dementors, are they able to talk ?), every one was blacked out, >so how Fudge could know that ? > We know that they can communicate because they reported to Fudge that Sirius was saying 'He's at Hogwarts' in his sleep for days. Fudge makes two trips to Azkaban, the first, where he gives Sirius the newspaper, and a second, secret one on the night that Sirius escaped. The second trip is hushed up, though Arthur knows about it, so Fudge naturally doesn't mention it to Rosemerta. But if Fudge had done this to help Sirius escape, he wouldn't have let Arthur know, surely? The dementors would have no reason not to tell Fudge they had tried to kiss Harry. They don't know he's an innocent boy. They're blind, so they don't know he's a boy at all. As far as they're concerned, he's interfering with them in the course of their lawful duties. It's not in their nature to understand pleading or excuses--why wouldn't they think they were doing what they were supposed to do? Since they're blind, they also wouldn't be able to report the form of the patronus that chased them off, or tell Fudge who conjured it. Pippin From Batchevra at aol.com Wed May 26 23:27:01 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:27:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Remus is the worst Message-ID: <1f0.21a54f2d.2de681c5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99538 In a message dated 5/26/04 11:19:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ExSlytherin at aol.com writes: (snip) > I wrote: > Again, we don't know if Peter has any family > > at all either and perhaps he doesn't and Sirius was right. But I'm certain the DE and Voldemort used such techniques in converting > > people to their side. Threatening to kill children and family to > > force someone into committing heinous crimes. (snip) Peter does have a mother who got the finger and the Order of Merlin medal that Peter was given posthumously. It is said twice in POA. Peter stayed a rat for 12 years and let his mother think he was dead, even Remus asks, if you were innocent why remain a rat? There are deeper motives for what Peter did, and he went to Voldemort voluntarily not threatened. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed May 26 23:27:17 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 23:27:17 -0000 Subject: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" : > Dumbledore says at the end that it was a matter of great urgency > that Harry master Occlumency and that it was a mistake for him > not to have taught Harry himself. So I think the lessons were a > genuine attempt. But I also think they were stopped purposefully. > > I mean, the more I think about that set up with the Pensieve, the > more it smells. Harry is careless, and so he never thinks it's > significant when someone else makes a careless mistake. But > Snape is obsessively *not* careless--it's what makes him an > excellent potion maker and a successful spy. Do we really > believe that he was so distracted by Montague's plight that he > ran out of his office leaving Potter and a Pensieve full of highly > dangerous memories behind him? > > There's a lot about the Occlumency lessons that we don't know. > Harry was having them every week, but we see only three or four. > The impression is that Snape discovered Harry's vision of > Rookwood, Dumbledore decided Occlumency was more > important than ever, and Snape threw him out the very next > lesson. > > But in between is the chapter about Firenze, where he tells Harry > that Hagrid's attempt is not working and it should be abandoned. > Dumbledore is forced from office. March blurs into April. Harry is > still constantly dreaming about the corridor and still dwelling on > his dream of being Voldemort. And there may have been more > than one. Canon is vague about it. We don't actually know how > many lessons or visions there were between the Rookwood > vision and Harry's look into Snape's past. > > But we do get a hint that an attempt which is not working may be > abandoned. It could be that Dumbledore realized the lessons > weren't working and instructed Snape to find a way to abandon > them without causing Harry to ruminate on why they had > failed--lest Voldemort dwell on this too. Why reveal a weakness > to the enemy? Marianne: Or, perhaps Snape really didn't want to be forced to teach Harry Occulmency, and set up the entire pensieve situation to ensure Harry would precipitate an incident that Snape could use to end the lessons, especially if he'd been giving Dumbledore a running commentary about how poorly the lessons were going. (Let's hear it for run-on sentences!) If Dumbledore thought these lessons were that important, and he himself is not in a position to be teaching them, I'm not sure why the only other teacher available to provide this instruction is allowed to walk away from it. Somehow, Dumbledore and Snape putting together a plan to end the lessons seems to indicate that they were not of such dire importance in the first place. Marianne From snow15145 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 23:51:45 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 23:51:45 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99540 Neri: Here we arrive at another rant I have, not about Snape but about DD. Read this carefully: OotP, Ch.37 : "When, however, you did not return from your trip into the Forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's. He alerted certain Order members at once.' Dumbledore heaved a great sigh and continued, 'Alastor Moody, Nymphadora Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt and Remus Lupin were at Headquarters when he made contact. All agreed to go to your aid at once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at Headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment. In the meantime he, Professor Snape, intended to search the Forest for you. 'But Sirius did not wish to remain behind while the others went to search for you." Do you believe this? DD, the supreme commander of the forces of Good, does not have an immediate way of communication with his own HQ??? Would someone please give him a two-way mirror, or a portrait of Phineas Nigelus, or just a cell phone??? What would have happened had DD got delayed and taken an hour, not five minutes, to reach 12GP? Was Sirius supposed to wait for him all that time while his fellows are butchered in the DoM? Had DD got a message from 12GP (or better, directly from Snape) he could have apparate, from wherever he was, straight to the DoM, arriving at the same time the other order members had arrived there, and most likely saving Sirius' life and preventing Harry from nearly getting killed. And where were Arthur, Molly, Diggle, Vance and all the rest??? Why don't they have and immediate way to summon them to any place? Should they ask Hermione for fake Galeons with a Proteus charm on them? Ah well, JKR is clearly not versed in basic military communication procedures. But if you want to blame it on the characters, DD is your man, not Sirius. Snow: IMO, throughout the series, this setting is the most controversial. What you pointed out, Neri, is a lot of the very questions that I had/have with this scene. Isn't there a bit too much time lapse for something that was a top priority alert status? I especially appreciate the sarcastic but true statement of whether they should ask Hermione for her expertise. That pretty much sums up the less than childish way in which some of the adults in this scene prioritized their response time. Somewhat like, I know you need me Harry hang on, I'll be there as soon as I am done rescuing Umbridge (worthless as she is, she takes precedent over you at the moment)and talking with Kreacher (who, I figured out what he did but I just wanted to be sure). Unless of course stalling for time was a bigger priority. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Thu May 27 00:45:44 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 00:45:44 -0000 Subject: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99541 Marianne >snip< If Dumbledore thought these lessons were that important, and he himself is not in a position to be teaching them, I'm not sure why the only other teacher available to provide this instruction is allowed to walk away from it. Somehow, Dumbledore and Snape putting together a plan to end the lessons seems to indicate that they were not of such dire importance in the first place. Snow: Ok, where did Snape get the penceive? Most likely borrowed it from DD, unless every teacher has one. Why did Snape borrow it from DD? Perhaps DD suggested it by saying "you wouldn't want Harry to see some of the past issues you had with his father, siphon off some of your memories in here (penceive) before you begin each lesson". (That kind of sounded a bit like an enticement there.) Snape ends the lessons after Harry's curious peeping and DD feels no need to resume them in any way. You mean there isn't one other person besides Snape and DD that could possibly teach Harry occlumency? Sounds a bit doubtful. How many Aurors does DD know? Not one of the trusted Aurors that are in the Order is capable of teaching something like this? Too far fetched for that to be true. Harry sees, Harry knows, lessons over. Harry now has been taught what DD wanted Harry to know and more importantly, deal with. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Thu May 27 00:46:26 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 00:46:26 -0000 Subject: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99542 Marianne >snip< If Dumbledore thought these lessons were that important, and he himself is not in a position to be teaching them, I'm not sure why the only other teacher available to provide this instruction is allowed to walk away from it. Somehow, Dumbledore and Snape putting together a plan to end the lessons seems to indicate that they were not of such dire importance in the first place. Snow: Ok, where did Snape get the penceive? Most likely borrowed it from DD, unless every teacher has one. Why did Snape borrow it from DD? Perhaps DD suggested it by saying "you wouldn't want Harry to see some of the past issues you had with his father, siphon off some of your memories in here (penceive) before you begin each lesson". (That kind of sounded a bit like an enticement there.) Snape ends the lessons after Harry's curious peeping and DD feels no need to resume them in any way. You mean there isn't one other person besides Snape and DD that could possibly teach Harry occlumency? Sounds a bit doubtful. How many Aurors does DD know? Not one of the trusted Aurors that are in the Order is capable of teaching something like this? Too far fetched for that to be true. Harry sees, Harry knows, lessons over. Harry now has been taught what DD wanted Harry to know and more importantly, deal with. From ck32976 at yahoo.com Thu May 27 01:23:33 2004 From: ck32976 at yahoo.com (ck32976) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 01:23:33 -0000 Subject: Mundungus and the Hog's Head Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99543 Hi all... It has been quite some time since my last post, but I was reading book five again and something struck me. When AD is telling Harry about the night Trelawney made the prophecy, he mentions that the person that was listening was discovered and thrown out of the Hog's Head. Mundungus had been banned from the Hog's Head. It probably means nothing, and I apologize if it has been discussed (I checked, but didn't find anything) Do you think it was Mundungus that overheard the prophecy? If so, did he just tell the wrong person, or did he deliberately pass it on to Voldemort? Either way what does it mean in regard to his position (past present and/or future) in the order. Sirius said that Mundungus is very loyal to AD, but has that always been the case? Any thoughts? Carrie-Ann From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 27 02:13:20 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 02:13:20 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99544 > Neri: > Could be. The teachers had a chance to work with him as equals. However, it is not your relationships with the person during peacetime that matters. You might like each other or hate each other, it's almost irrelevant. The question is: do you absolutely trust him to come and get you out of a difficult spot under fire? < > > Potioncat: I'd still rather have Snape protecting the rear than Black. At least I'd know he would be there while Black might be charging on to the front.< > > Neri: > No person is a perfect soldier, but I've met the Sirius type and the Snape type during my service. The Sirius type might not be the right man in certain positions but a priceless asset in others. The Snape type I wouldn't want on my platoon at all. He'd ruin any mutual trust in it long before the first shot.< Pippin: Good thing it's not your job to unite the houses then I'm not even an armchair general, but I've always understood that non-uniform communication styles are a problem for irregular organizations like the Order. Snape's waspishness may be as much cultural as personal--come to think of it, have we ever met a Slytherin who wasn't waspish? I can't believe I've never thought of this before, but I'm suddenly reminded of the first meeting between my laid-back Midwestern husband and my Sabra (native Israeli) relatives. They all became great friends eventually, but for a while there they thought he was a hopeless wimp. And he of course thought they had determined to hate him on sight. Sheds a little light on Snape's interactions with Neville and Harry, doesn't it? Dumbledore in GoF to Snape and Sirius: "I trust you both." Neri: >Do you believe this? DD, the supreme commander of the forces of Good, does not have an immediate way of communication with his own HQ??? Would someone please give him a two-way mirror, or a portrait of Phineas Nigelus, or just a cell phone???< Pippin: Cell phones wouldn't work in a place as heavily enchanted as Grimmauld Place. But the WW probably *could* use Muggle expertise, including Hermione's--it's long been a theory of mine that Voldemort's imperialist ambitions come from his Muggle upbringing in the old days of the British Empire. Most of the WW's communications and transportation technology seems cumbersome compared to ours, at least for wartime. An owl's really nothing more than a glorified carrier pigeon, is it? And floo powder is cool, but you can't put a fireplace in your pocket. The Ministry keeps tabs on Apparation and Portkey use., which means Voldemort can too. Brooms and other flying vehicles are conspicuous and invisibility charms are prone to fail. The portraits can't be cloned, as far as we know. Phineas has been dead a while, so getting some of his blood and such to make another portrait would be difficult. In any case, if 13 dead is the Ministry's idea of a horrific attack, they are way behind Muggles when it comes to what Professor Tolkien once called ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once. I seem to recall that a lot of our advanced communications technology was developed for military use. As the WW doesn't seem to have fought a full scale war since the last Goblin rebellion, maybe they haven't devoted a lot of thought to this stuff since then. I am slowly reaching the conclusion that wonderful as it is, magic isn't all it's cracked up to be as substitute technology. And that may be just what JKR intends. Pippin From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu May 27 01:03:10 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:03:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin on the Hogwarts Express In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99545 | From: meriaugust [mailto:meriaugust at yahoo.com] | Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 10:39 AM | | Has anyone figured out why Prof. Lupin rode the train to Hogwarts | for the start of term in PoA? No other DADA professors (Lockhart, | Moody, Umbridge) in particular (and in fact no other teachers) have | ever been on the train so why was Lupin? I was thinking that Lupin | might have been a last minute appointee to the post of DADA teacher, | and so the train was the only way for him to get to Hogwarts. But | why was he a last minute appointee? Was it because he had a | relationship with Sirius Black, who has just escaped from Azkaban | and DD (fearing, I don't know, something) wanted Lupin close at | hand? It's too big of a coincidence that Lupin should have been | appointed to the DADA post *before* Black escaped. After all, DD | appointed ex-Auror Moody to the post when he knew that LV was on the | rise again, so maybe there was reasoning behind Lupin's appointment, | too. Any thoughts? Or am I cracked? [Lee] Hmm-perhaps it's the rest of the world that's cracked; not us!! No way!! :-) I'm thinking that Dd knew/suspected there might be dementor problems, especially knowing that they were going to be guarding the school. Dd probably figured that the ugly things might take it on to search the train for Sirius. So, Lupin riding the train seems like an excellent precaution. It's also possible that Lupin was asked by Dd because of his friendship with Sirius and, since Lupin also indicated that jobs were really hard to come by, Dd was killing a couple birds with one stone, so to speak. | Meri - who really really really really cannot wait for the PoA movie | next week!!!!!!!!! [Lee] I'm gonna wait a couple days because the local theater will be mashingly crowded and their seats are so--uh--compact that you want at least one empty seat next to you to hold your popcorn! Uh--house elves would love the seats. :-0 Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Thu May 27 01:24:04 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 01:24:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99546 > Neri: > > Ah well, JKR is clearly not versed in basic military communication > procedures. But if you want to blame it on the characters, DD is your > man, not Sirius. > > Snow: > IMO, throughout the series, this setting is the most controversial. > What you pointed out, Neri, is a lot of the very questions that I > had/have with this scene. Isn't there a bit too much time lapse for > something that was a top priority alert status? I especially > appreciate the sarcastic but true statement of whether they should > ask Hermione for her expertise. That pretty much sums up the less > than childish way in which some of the adults in this scene > prioritized their response time. Somewhat like, I know you need me > Harry hang on, I'll be there as soon as I am done rescuing Umbridge > (worthless as she is, she takes precedent over you at the moment) and > talking with Kreacher (who, I figured out what he did but I just > wanted to be sure). Unless of course stalling for time was a bigger > priority. Mike Feemster: Another ket point in this whole sequence is that Dumbledore should have gave Harry a means to communicate to someone in the Order who is outside of Hogwarts. Sirius gave him the mirror, but Harry was too concerned for his safety to use it. If one argues that LV could see who Harry is communicating with via this device, then let someone else use it. A good candidate would have been Hermione. If she had a means to communicate with Lupin, this whole scene could have been avoided. That being said, this is her story and she writes it how she sees fit. Still it is fun discussing the tactical aspects of the operation. Mike Feemster From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Thu May 27 01:37:27 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 01:37:27 -0000 Subject: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99547 > Snow wrote: > You mean there isn't one other person besides Snape and DD that could > possibly teach Harry occlumency? Sounds a bit doubtful. How many > Aurors does DD know? Not one of the trusted Aurors that are in the > Order is capable of teaching something like this? Too far fetched for > that to be true. Harry sees, Harry knows, lessons over. Harry now has > been taught what DD wanted Harry to know and more importantly, deal > with. Remember that Snape told Harry, "You will receive private lessons once a week, but you will not tell anyone what you are doing, least of all Dolores Umbridge." This tells me that nobody knowing that Harry is taking occlumency lessons is just as or maybe more important than Harry taking them. Snape tells Harry to use the excuse that he has to take remedial potions. It may be possible that some of the Aurors know how to teach this, but there presence on campus would alert Umbridge that something was up. That then leaves one of the teachers, possible McGonagall, Flitwick, or Sprout. The question is can they teach Harry and does Dumbledore trust them to do so. Mike Feemster From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Thu May 27 01:45:15 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 01:45:15 -0000 Subject: Mundungus and the Hog's Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99548 Carrie-Ann wrote: > Hi all... > It has been quite some time since my last post, but I was reading > book five again and something struck me. When AD is telling Harry > about the night Trelawney made the prophecy, he mentions that the > person that was listening was discovered and thrown out of the Hog's > Head. Mundungus had been banned from the Hog's Head. It probably > means nothing, and I apologize if it has been discussed (I checked, > but didn't find anything) Do you think it was Mundungus that > overheard the prophecy? > I don't think so because of the timing. Sirius tells the trio that Mundungus has been banned from the Hog's Head twenty years ago. (OoTP 17) Dumbledore tells Harry that, "On a cold wet night sixteen years ago," is when he heard the prophecy from Trelawney. By these two facts, I don't think Mundungus is the one that overheard the prophecy that night. Mike Feemster From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu May 27 02:01:21 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:01:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Imperio! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99549 | From: Susan [mailto:teilani2002 at yahoo.com] | Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 13:09 PM | But I digress. I have a few opinions as to who else might be a good | candidate for the Dark Side to Imperio, but I'd love to hear what you | all think. Besides Percy, who's an excellent candidate, I think | Draco would be someone that the DE's could go after. Now, I know | he's not exactly a good guy, but I doubt he's capable of murder, | especially at his age, and with his privileged upbringing. However, | it wouldn't take much convincing, especially under a powerful spell, | cast by a powerful witch/wizard, to convince him to do any number of | nasty things. I have to wonder what Draco intended to do to Harry when they had their encounter by the great front door near the end of Book 5...you know---just before McGonagal returns. Malfoy commit murder? I kind of think he doesn't really have the guts. A lot of bluster and not as much real fight as he wants people to think. Up till now, at least, he could go running to dear daddy who could pull strings and make some things happen. But daddy Malfoy is now in Azkaban and won't be there to fix whatever's broken. :-) Just my take. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From ck32976 at yahoo.com Thu May 27 03:12:29 2004 From: ck32976 at yahoo.com (ck32976) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 03:12:29 -0000 Subject: Mundungus and the Hog's Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mikefeemster" wrote: > I don't think so because of the timing. Sirius tells the trio > that Mundungus has been banned from the Hog's Head twenty years ago. > (OoTP 17) > > Dumbledore tells Harry that, "On a cold wet night sixteen years > ago," is when he heard the prophecy from Trelawney. By these two > facts, I don't think Mundungus is the one that overheard the > prophecy that night. > > Mike Feemster I guess that the timing is why I think that it is Mundungus. If he had been banned 20 years ago, and the prophecy was made 16 years ago, he would already have been banned when the prophecy was msde. So, if he was there 16 years ago while the prophecy was being made, and the owner/bartender found him there, he would have been thrown out immediately. Also, Mundungus is clearly not the type to let a little thing like banishment keep him from where he wanted to be. He showed that by being in the Hog's head during the initial DA meeting. From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu May 27 03:32:40 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 03:32:40 -0000 Subject: Occlumency was RE: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99551 Snip > > But we do get a hint that an attempt which is not working may be > abandoned. It could be that Dumbledore realized the lessons > weren't working and instructed Snape to find a way to abandon > them without causing Harry to ruminate on why they had > failed--lest Voldemort dwell on this too. Why reveal a weakness > to the enemy? > > Of course Snape does seem really angry with Harry when he > finds him in his memories. But you don't have to be a devotee of > MAGIC DISHWASHER to notice that Snape goes on the warpath > in situations where it would be very inconvenient for him to > answer questions. > > IMO, he doesn't want to tell Harry *why* he's stopping > Occlumency, so he arranges to fly into a towering rage instead. > Of course he couldn't have planned for Montague to turn up when > he did, but Snape could have taken advantage of it to do > something he was planning to do already. Let Potter see what > his sainted father was really like, and at the same time, end the > lessons in such a way that Harry will not wonder if his failure to > learn is what caused it. > > Of course Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry all this without > admitting how closely he and Snape are working together. It's > not time for that yet. > > Pippin Excellent post Pippin, very astute observations. I have felt since I read OotP the first time that Harry *did* learn what he needed to learn about Occlumency but that it was completely ineffective in blocking Voldemort from his mind because the connection is different. I believe Snape knew this fairly early on (no canon of course, just my opinion). What makes me believe Snape had stopped being able to "get anywhere" in Harry's mind was that he was continually reliving the same memories over and over again. On *occasion* Snape found something new but it was rare. What was important for Snape to know and what Harry was most interested in hiding were two different things (he never did see what happened between Harry and Cho, did he.) Snape has a flair for drama and ending lessons this way, with Harry ravaged by confusion and disappointment about who his father was, plays right into Snape's rather vindictive hands. The job was done and as an added bonus the kid feels like garbage. Not a bad day's work. Sue(hpfan) From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu May 27 03:48:01 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 03:48:01 -0000 Subject: FILK: Possibly Podmore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99552 Possibly Podmore (OOP, Chap. 26) To the tune of Suddenly, Seymour from The Little Shop of Horrors MIDI at: http://addagirl.com/littleshop.htm Dedicated to Gail Bohacek (and this is a one-shot deal, Gail ? I'm not going to filk the entire musical!) THE SCENE: Hogwarts' courtyard. THE TRIO confer concerning the implications of HARRY'S latest Dark Lord dream, and arrive at several important conclusions, one of which is that they shouldn't be discussing this stuff in the first place HERMIONE When we saw Bode Recover at Mungo's He was still flummoxed With his voice took away But then a plant Struck without warning And now Bode is dead Through floral foul play Possibly Podmore Has been made the fall-guy I think Lucius snuck up When Sturgis stood guard Possibly Podmore He didn't at all spy Curse unforgiven Podmore fell hard. HARRY Somebody evil Stood out quite plainly Daddy L. Malfoy Fudge at his side He cast a spell that made Bode act ungainly To stop his talking, they Made sure he died. Probably Podmore Was Malfoy's next target For trespass arrested When weapon he sought Probably Podmore He couldn't too far get Curse unforgiven Sturgis got caught. HERMIONE We know that Voldy So wants the weapon He'll stop at nothing His aims to achieve Now it seems Rookwood The Dark Lord's enlightening ? Still, this scenario You should not retrieve HERMIONE & RON Harry, don't see more! Let your mind closed be Harry, don't see more! Make Snape your guide Your dreams of the door Are Voldy-imposed, see? Let sweet Occlumency Let sweet Occlumency Let sweet Occlumency Keep him outside! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From elfundeb at comcast.net Thu May 27 04:00:02 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 04:00:02 -0000 Subject: Lupin is worse was 'Re: Are there no depths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99553 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Pippin: > *Finally!!!!* Somebody gets it! ::blushes:: er, yes. If Lupin were > tricked or blackmailed or jinxed into serving Lord Voldemort, > how would he get out of it, given how weak and afraid he is? > Would he tell the truth to Dumbledore? > > Or would he find an excuse not to tell...continue to serve the > Dark Lord in secret, hoping against hope that Voldemort would > overreach himself in the end. I agree that Lupin's flaw is quite dangerous, possibly more so than his disease, as there's a limit to how much killing he could do in one full moon, but his silence endangers many. The trouble I have with Pippin's scenario, though, is that Lupin's sins are sins of inaction which he rationalized to himself (e.g., "I convinced myself that Sirius was getting into the school using dark arts he learned from Voldemort, that being an Animagus had nothing to do with it"), whereas serving the Dark Lord would require positive betrayal. Inaction is easy -- and reversible at any time -- but succumbing to blackmail is a big step further than we have seen Lupin go to protect himself. He's seen the effects of Pettigrew's betrayal; why would he follow that same path? And how would this advance the story? Moreover, if Lupin were jinxed, or imperio'd into doing Voldemort's bidding, I'm not sure I see how Voldemort could use that fact to coerce further support. The WW is full of respectable wizards and witches who acted -- or claim to have acted -- under a curse. Remember Hagrid telling Harry that on Voldemort's fall "People who was on his side came back ter ours. Some of 'em came outta kinda trances." We also have Imperius!Arthur theories on this list, but no one talks of betrayal. One more point. Lupin's biggest failure to act, IMO, was not telling Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus during PoA. However, Dumbledore did not reject him because of this failure. In fact, Dumbledore specifically mentions Lupin when he calls for Sirius to round up the old crowd at the end of GoF. I expect he'll remember that if Voldemort does come calling. Justine wrote: > Remus is the wizarding world's version of a child who has been given a blood transfusion and has contracted AIDS, especially when thinking of the 80s when so many were afraid to even be in a room with someone who had it. Wouldn't turning Remus into a traitor equal telling these children that such reactions are acceptable and even right? > I think the most apt analogy is mental illness. They are similar in the public reaction they elicit, but mentally ill persons can be uncontrollably dangerous to themselves as well as others. And though mental illness often can be controlled with medication, the medication can have side effects (recall how ill Lupin seems around the full moon) and a mentally ill person who forgets his medication can become quite dangerous. But such people are uncontrollably dangerous. They don't make a conscious choice to hurt others. Nor does Lupin. > Pippin > who has been saying that Lupin is definitely dodgy since post > 39362 Debbie who has been defending Lupin against ESE charges since post 39964 From ck32976 at yahoo.com Thu May 27 04:16:48 2004 From: ck32976 at yahoo.com (ck32976) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 04:16:48 -0000 Subject: Apology Re: Mundungus and the Hog's Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99554 I apologize for posting before reading OotP FAQ. I only did an archive search that turned up nothing on the subject. Sorry. :( Quite silly, really, to think I found something new when the iincredible minds on this list have had almost anentire year in which to discuss the book, but anyway. I do still wonder if it has any meaning if it were Mundungus who heard the prophecy, though. Carrie-Ann --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ck32976" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mikefeemster" > wrote: > > > I don't think so because of the timing. Sirius tells the trio > > that Mundungus has been banned from the Hog's Head twenty years > ago. > > (OoTP 17) > > > > Dumbledore tells Harry that, "On a cold wet night sixteen years > > ago," is when he heard the prophecy from Trelawney. By these two > > facts, I don't think Mundungus is the one that overheard the > > prophecy that night. > > > > Mike Feemster > > I guess that the timing is why I think that it is Mundungus. If he > had been banned 20 years ago, and the prophecy was made 16 years ago, > he would already have been banned when the prophecy was msde. So, if > he was there 16 years ago while the prophecy was being made, and the > owner/bartender found him there, he would have been thrown out > immediately. Also, Mundungus is clearly not the type to let a little > thing like banishment keep him from where he wanted to be. He showed > that by being in the Hog's head during the initial DA meeting. From elfundeb at comcast.net Thu May 27 04:20:29 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 04:20:29 -0000 Subject: Imperio! In-Reply-To: <20040526212705.67795.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99555 Tyler: > Technically, Bella & her gang didn't get a trial. > From what I recall, the "trial" basically consisted > of Crouch Sr. asking the jury if they thought their > crimes were deserving of a life sentence. No evidence > was presented, no one argued the defense's case. Not > really a trial. I think it was more a chance for > Crouch Sr. to publicly wash his hands of his son so > his own reputation might be spared. Didn't work too > well though. > Not exactly. This was clearly the verdict/sentencing phase of the trial, as Crouch states, "We have heard the evidence against you." It's an open question, though, whether the defendants were allowed to present evidence on their behalf. Much has been written about Crouch's motives. For a very lengthy discussion, try Elkins' Crouch novenna, which were posted in mid- December 2002, starting at #47927. Debbie From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Thu May 27 05:30:48 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my Remus Is Good! crusade and sketchy Snape (was Lupin is worse) (longish) In-Reply-To: <1085625480.9835.95338.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040527053048.44121.qmail@web50304.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99556 Pippin: Rowling has tricked me over and over again in the books by encouraging me to draw false conclusions from context. Justine: Right. In the books. Are there any instances in which Jo says something in an interview and then flips it around? When she's asked about her favorite characters, she lists "Harry, Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, and Professor Lupin." http://www.mugglenet.com/scholchat1.shtml He's with good company. Pippin: Remus definitely has his admirable qualities, and Jo is always effusive about them in her interviews, but she also points out that he has his flaws. She makes them sound rather endearing, but they are flaws all the same. Justine: >From my many readings of her interviews, if something's not what it seems, she is either very coy about it or she skirts the issue entirely. Pippin: She has never said, as she has of Dumbledore, that Lupin is goodness. Justine: Who else besides Dumbledore has she said that of? The closest I can think of is calling Remus kind. Pippin: Is Lupin terrible but great? He can use the patronus charm, and he uses wandless magic to make a light that doesn't go out in the presence of Dementors. Snape considers him even more dangerous than Sirius--in the shack he restrains Lupin, not Black. Justine: She has not said he is a great *wizard* though. Her words were "great man." If we're going to put an emphasis on words, let's put an emphasis on words. Plus, Sirius has no wand at that moment, and Remus is about to transform. Also, I have some questions about this regarding Snape (or, rather, questions about Snape regarding this) that I'll bring up later. Pippin: Is Lupin kind? Undoubtedly. But Jo is explicit that not everyone who is kind means well. Tom Riddle brags of his kindness to Ginny. Fake!Moody's kindness to Neville reminds Harry of Lupin, no less. Justine: I think we can trust Jo rather than an arrogant and evil Tom Riddle to know what kindness is. Fake!Moody, on the other hand, might cheer up Neville like Lupin does, but there's a stark difference between Fake!Moody and Professor Lupin. Remus never transfigures Draco into a ferret and bounces him up and down on the floor. He doesn't Imperio his students for the sake of learning. Instead, he lets them face and defeat their fears. I really think she put that in to make us trust Fake!Moody rather than to give us a reason to distrust Remus. Pippin: Our children have to live in a world where, unfortunately, people who have genuinely earned their admiration do dreadful things and bigots try to take advantage of it. A beloved athlete kills his wife. A financier who gave millions to charity goes to jail for cheating little old ladies of their savings. Justine: We already have examples of that. There's, of course, Fake!Moody. Then there's Lockhart, who never really earned the trust of Harry, Ron, or the staff, but earned the love and admiration of thousands, perhaps millions of fans in the wizarding world, and turned out to be a fraud with a penchant for destroying people's minds. And what about Ludo Bagman? He's a former star athlete who got into some risky business with the bad guys because he was stupid, then got a job in the government and screwed that up by developing a gambling problem. Besides, that wasn't my point. I raised the issue that Remus, being symbolic of the maligned outcast, shows how stereotypes are wrong... your examples of a "beloved athlete" and benevolent financier don't have bad stigmas attatched to them the way "werewolf" in the wizarding world does. You're talking about people acting out of character; I'm talking about broken stereotypes. An athlete is not shattering any stereotypes by being good at physical things. He's a name on a product, essentially, so his killing his wife basically does nothing to malign the name of "athlete." Being an athlete does not imply anything of a person's mental and moral state--being a werewolf in the wizarding world does. Same with the financier: giving to charity may imply moral character, but in today's day and age, that's merely a given in affluent circles, so a financier giving to charity is not breaking stereotypes, so his misdeeds would not in turn reinforce any. But being a "good werewolf" (and if someone tells me that Luna is the "good werewolf," I'm sorry, but I need more canonical evidence than her name) is breaking wizarding stereotypes that are obviously not widely accepted, so making him a traitor is basically reinforcing those stereotypes in the kid's minds, especially those who grew up in the wizarding community like Ron. Ally: While JKR has said Remus is a wonderful man, she has said he's a wonderful man with a flaw, and consider some her principal themes: people are not easily categorized and can possess good and bad qualities; and a person must have constant vigilance to make the right choices in life. To me, having Remus make a mistake that hurts the Order b/c of his flaw would fit very well into these themes. Justine: I completely agree here. I can very easily see Remus making a mistake (without turning traitor) that hurts the Order, and I actually somewhat expect it. I'm not going to say that Remus can do no wrong. He most definitely can; he just won't do it purposely. Now for my questions about Snape! How long has he been spying for Dumbledore? Because depending on how long he's been in that position, he may have had knowledge during the events of third year that Sirius actually wasn't the traitor... logically, if he was a Death Eater, and was in the inner circles of "former" Death Eaters (Sirius does refer to him as Lucius Malfoy's lapdog) he'd have some knowledge that it was actually Peter who was the spy for Voldemort and Sirius was innocent. That would perhaps explain his restraining Lupin over Sirius, but wow look at the size of that can of worms! "He served Voldemort for a time, but at some point before the Potters' murder and Voldemort's downfall, turned against the Dark Lord and became a spy for Dumbledore. Snape still has the Dark Mark on his arm." That's from the Lexicon. If Peter had been Voldemort's spy for a number of years before James and Lily were murdered, there could very possibly have been a time at which their services overlapped. If Snape has been in good favor with Lucius for all these years, why on earth did he get no information about the actual spy? Justine (Pippin, your first post on ESE!Lupin begged someone to convince you otherwise. I'm probably not doing a very good job, but I'm having fun trying!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 27 10:01:19 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 10:01:19 -0000 Subject: What is with the "Prank" ? In-Reply-To: <1ab.24c016df.2de649d2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99557 Amber wrote: << I would not be surprised if suicide was not on his mind even before the prank....and even if it hadn't got to that point yet...this is the boy who grew up to spy on Voldemort, for whatever reason, and if he had to take a lethal risk to get the torment to stop, or just out of revenge, I wouldn't put it past him.... And Sirius walks up to him and says, "If you want to know, just prod the knot on the Whomping Willow." In front of witnesses, probably. ( James heard about it, not heard it. From who? ) If Snape dies under that tree or comes back to say what he saw and who sent him to see it, Sirius and Lupin, and he believes James was responsible too, will get what he believes what they deserve for at least five years of hell. Expulsion. But fate or Murphy's Law or whatever intervenes. James saves his life, and it gets hushed up. And Snape becomes a DE, and you know the rest. Now for heaven's sake, someone prove me wrong. >> Jo Ann replies: < Sorry, I think it's a coolly evil idea. I love the perversity of the thought that Snape hates Harry because his blood debt to James, carried on through Harry, is the only thing stopping him from ending his own miserable life. And though I strongly suspect it's not going to turn out that way, and ultimately I really wouldn't want it to (I *like* Severus,) I can't really cite anything from canon that disproves it. > Sigune now: There certainly is something to the idea, and it is a clever theory, Amber! Hmmm, dark... But even though I must agree with Jo Ann that there is no canon to really *disprove* it, there is no canon to really *support* it either, I think. Although in its perverseness the scheme seems worthy of Snape, I somehow cannot see him as suicidal from the way he is portrayed in canon - but that is just my interpretation. Snape is a survivor, he will go to any lengths to save his own neck, even though it may seem *to us* at first sight that there is not all that much for him to live for. It seems more consistent with his personality to struggle on exactly to spite his tormentors, too, and getting himself killed during an act of vengeance would deprive him of an occasion to laugh sardonically in triumph at the results of his revenge plot. What would be the use of taking revenge when he is not able to savour it? Besides, as a calculating, cunning Slytherin he would not, I think, entrust the execution of the punishment to others - he would want to be there to make sure it was properly done. I mean, with Dumbledore in charge, and the culprits being Gryffindors... ;-) Well, you asked to be proven wrong, which is quite an impossibility; but I offer my own reasoning as one theory against Suicidal!Snape... Yours severely, Sigune From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Thu May 27 11:20:32 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 6:20:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] my Remus Is Good! crusade and sketchy Snape (was Lupin is worse) (longish) Message-ID: <20040527112032.LFBS1464.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99559 If Snape has been in good favor with Lucius for all these years, why on earth did he get no information about the actual spy? Justine Being a spy is a double-edged sword, especially in a group that (should be) as paranoid and distrustful of people as the DE are. Snape may have never found out because he was never told. Kepe in mind, that the DE are so paranoid that no single DE except Voldemort knows who all the others are--so it's very likely that Snape never found out because he never *saw* Peter for sure at DE functions...(and. Peter may not have gone to gatherings anyway--I dont think he ahs the Mark, so Voldemort calling his DE would have no compunction for Peter to follow. Reporting himself to Voldemort, though... To be honest--I suspect only Voldemort knew about Peter within the DE structre. Much safer and smarter that way (I also notice that it seems Voldemort was a lot smarter, or at least more effective, the first time around) Now why would Voldemort not say anything? Easy--really, all Peter is good for is to tell him where the Potters went to. Sure, he gives reports for the Order's movements--but who's to say Vodlemort did not have more than one spy back then (and not just Snape if you want to go that route). Peter, by being willing to turn his friends over, is already showing signs of being untrustworthy for either side--and there's another difference between Peter and the other DE. The DE are horrid, nasty folks, but they had their fair share of very loyal members--Peter, by betraying his friends--out of mere fear no less ("Paraphrase: "the Dark Lord was coming into his power, there was no escpaing him') instead of beleif in an ideal, is very obviously not very loyal. What if DD, or worse yet, the Aurors got hold of the little rat. Remembered how he squealed in the Shack in an attempt to save his own hide? The guy will say anything to anyone to stay in one piece. Poor choice IMHO, for full status, even in a faction as evil as the DE (Although he could have done half the work for the good guy by his own nature if he had been a full DE memeber *eg*). So use the little punk for what he would be really good at--a small insight into the Order, and to show Voldemort where the Potters are. Other then that, he has no real use. So what if he dies? There's always plan 'b'...and if its one of his own DE 'buddies' that kills him...ah well. Still no big loss. To fill the void that Peter has (other then the Potters, that is), I can think of several possibilities for a more 'heavy duty' spy. Snape is an obvious shoe-in, especially for those determined that he's really a bad guy all around (personally, I don't beleive it). Mundungus comes to mind--Con-men rarely pick a side--just stick with the most convinient one at the time, and the one most likely to keep their arses out of the fire when their own little ploys go wrong. If Voldemort really was coming o string way bakc then, then FDung, like Peter, might have decided V's side was the most likely to win out. If we want to go as far as Pippin, we can always tack Lupin down as the next one (After all, does anyone remember anything happening to his parents? We know they did their best to take care of him...but where, pray tell, are they now? Very powerful encourgament for a man desperate to have *anyone* like/love him?). I'm sure there are other Order members that can fit the bill too--after all, who do we really know anything about? Other then Harry, not much about anyone... Also, Lucius strikes me as the type to never trust anyone--including a 'friend'. He may have very well figured out Severus by now (and even then)...and is keeping that information that Snape has gone over secret for his own uses rather than give it over to Voldemort. After all, Mr Blonde and Snobby does have his own agendas to look to... Anne/Silverthorne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 27 11:39:46 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 11:39:46 -0000 Subject: my Remus Is Good! crusade and sketchy Snape (was Lupin is worse) (longish) In-Reply-To: <20040527112032.LFBS1464.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99560 Anne/Silverthorne wrote: << Being a spy is a double-edged sword, especially in a group that (should be) as paranoid and distrustful of people as the DE are. Snape may have never found out because he was never told. Kepe in mind, that the DE are so paranoid that no single DE except Voldemort knows who all the others are--so it's very likely that Snape never found out because he never *saw* Peter for sure at DE functions... (and. Peter may not have gone to gatherings anyway--I dont think he ahs the Mark, so Voldemort calling his DE would have no compunction for Peter to follow. Reporting himself to Voldemort, though... To be honest--I suspect only Voldemort knew about Peter within the DE structre. Much safer and smarter that way (I also notice that it seems Voldemort was a lot smarter, or at least more effective, the first time around)>> Sigune: Sorry, couldn't resist correcting... We know for sure Pettigrew has the Dark Mark because LV uses it to summon his other Death Eaters to the graveyard in GoF. We also know for sure that there were at least *some* Death Eaters who knew about Pettigrew because Sirius mentions on PoA that he overheard DE's in Azkaban vowing revenge against him because they believe he trapped LV - they think he knew the AK was going to backfire. After all, Pettigrew lived his life as Scabbers because he was hiding from his fellow DE's quite as much as from anyone who might have figured out he set up Sirius and the Potters. But that doesn't detract from your main point: that no DE knows all the other DE's, so yes, it is not impossible that Snape might not have known about Pettigrew at all. On the other hand, he may have turned to Dumbledore because one of the Marauders had invaded *his* service club and in revenge he would invade *theirs*. Erm - need coffee I think. Yours severely, Sigune From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 27 11:04:01 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 11:04:01 -0000 Subject: A thought which occurred when commencing a complete re-read Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99561 Book 1, Chapter 1, Page 1. How *did* the Dursleys know that the Potters had a small son if they were so intent on ignoring their existance? Indeed, how did Vernon know that Harry was "about the same age" as Dudley? -- Phil with apologies if this is a FAQ but it doesn't appear on any list I've seen From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 27 12:14:00 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 12:14:00 -0000 Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99562 Lee wrote (about the dueling scene with snake): > It's really easy to put Severus Snape in the baddy role, but I can't help > looking at what Quirrel said in the first book...about Snape making it easy > because of his action. I don't have an exact quote to hand, sorry. > > Hmm--guess I'm going to have to pull out my HP CDs. > > Potioncat: I agree, Snape has either set himself up to look like the bad guy even when he isn't..or as a result of his not-so-pleasant personality he always looks like the buy guy. This really contrasts with Crouch! Moody who did some really bad things, but looked "good" doing them. Can you imagine the reaction if Snape came into a DADA class and said, I'm going to imperio each of you because DD thinks you need to know how it feels? Potioncat From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu May 27 12:19:56 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 12:19:56 -0000 Subject: A thought which occurred when commencing a complete re-read In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > Book 1, Chapter 1, Page 1. > > How *did* the Dursleys know that the Potters had a small son if they > were so intent on ignoring their existance? > > Indeed, how did Vernon know that Harry was "about the same age" as > Dudley? > -- > Phil > with apologies if this is a FAQ but it doesn't appear on any list I've > seen Annemehr: I am thinking that though Petunia had decided to ignore Lily's existence, the decision wasn't mutual. I'm sure that, shortly after Harry's birth, Lily wrote to her sister and told her about it. Lily probably would have liked to reconcile with Petunia. As the reaction to getting a letter from Lily would have been a bad one in the Dursleys' house, Vernon would no doubt have remembered that it happened shortly after Dudley was born. After all, it's only 15 months later that he's remembering. Of course, this is pure speculation, but given what we know of the Dursleys, the little we know of Lily, and the fact that Vernon *did* know about Harry, the conclusion is irresistible. Annemehr From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 27 11:51:28 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 11:51:28 -0000 Subject: What is with the "Prank" ? In-Reply-To: <139.2f8702bb.2de5ba3f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99564 sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > Did Snape figure out that Lupin was a werewolf before the prank? > It's not exactly cold fusion, you know..... [snip] > OOP chap. 28 > " Did you like question ten, Moony?" asked Sirius as they emerged > into the entrance hall. > " Loved it." said Lupin briskly. " Give five signs that identify > the werewolf. Excellent question." > " D'you think you managed to get all the signs?" said James in mock > concern. > " Think I did." said Lupin seriously as they joined the crowd > thronging around the front doors eager to get out into the sunlit > grounds. " One: He's sitting on my chair. Two: He's wearing my > clothes. Three: His name's Remus Lupin.." This (IIRC:AFB ATM) was in the thought that Harry drew from the Pensieve. Apparently there is some debate as to whether the images thus obtained are *directly* from the memory of the person involved (i.e. nothing is visible/audible that they could not see/hear) or whether the Pensieve "boosts the reception" to allow extra information. If you believe the former, then this is direct evidence that Snape *did* know. Mind you, it would appear that everyone within earshot would have known also, and Lupin's secret would there not have been any more. As far as I can tell the number of people who knew Lupin's secret remained strictly minimal. This remark must have been too quiet to be generally overheard. So unless Snape was so much closer than anybody else to MWPP at this point that only he overheard (unlikely :-), the Pensieve must have interjected this into the "recovered memory". It would appear therefore that the Pensieve *does* "boost reception". However it does mean that this sequence can *not* be used as evidence that Snape pre-knew. I think :-) -- Phil From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 27 13:23:32 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:23:32 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99565 > bboy_mn: > > This kind of touches on my statement in the other thread about > youthful impulsiveness. I don't think Sirius intended for Snape to be > killed or harmed. Partly because, if that happened it would have been > devastating for Remus Lupin in many ways. That would have been a > terrible thing to happen to Remus, and I can't see Sirius wanting to > hurt Remus. > > In his youthful impulsive mind, I think Sirius had visions of Snape > running away in fear wetting himself as he went. That image would > certainly be a great laugh for Sirius. That's a classic case of a kid > so caught up in an impulse that he can't see the devistation to all > concerned if it doesn't go quite they way he envisions. Potioncat: I agree. But you know, if it had happened that way, Severus would have come running out of the tunnel yelling "Werewolf in the tunnel..." and the one hurt would be Remus. snip< bboy_mn: > Given that no harm was done, I want to remind people that we don't > know that involved parties were not punished. Snape tends to imply or > hint at Sirius and James getting off scot-free, but Snape, being the > victim, has a somewhat biased view. Any punishment in his mind would > have been too light. Potioncat: That's right. He still feels that Sirius tried to kill him. Along a similar line, we don't know what went on between Snape and DD about Occlumency lessons either. Looks like I snipped more than I intended to, but it may be that Severus was not in danger, even though everyone involved at the time thought so and still think so. And DD as usual isn't talking. Now a whole new thought. Remember DD's pensieve in GoF? It was comparing Snape and Harry and our dear, too curious Bertha? Perhaps it wasn't the active scar/mark that Snape and Harry had in common, but a too active curiosity? Potioncat who has set a goal of not getting into head-on Serius/Severus debates for at least a month........good thing June is almost here. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 27 13:33:03 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:33:03 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99566 Carolyn: > If Sirius, Peter and Lupin are telling the truth about what they did > all those years ago, then DD took a fantastic, careless risk in > allowing it to happen..or he knew it was happening. Did no one in the > Forbidden Forest tell him about a werewolf regularly on the loose > accompanied by at least two other enormous animals? All those magical > centaurs, the mer-people having a midnight float on the surface of > the lake? The intelligent owls, and who knows what else goes squeak > in the night in the WW? Even the most rudimentary information system > should have informed him what was happening. > Potioncat: I snipped a great deal. Very good post and you brought up a lot of good questions. I hope we haven't found a major flow in the writing...but given Jo's details in the rest of the series, I'll overlook it if we have. It is very hard to believe that DD didn't know the marauders could transfigure. Does anyone know where it is that DD speaks about it. Was he misleading us again? And certainly, he knew after the prank that the boys knew about the tunnel and the way to disarm the tree. Potioncat From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Thu May 27 13:36:34 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 8:36:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: my Remus Is Good! crusade and sketchy Snape (was Lupin is worse) (longish) Message-ID: <20040527133634.DWHZ18566.out011.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99567 Sigune: But that doesn't detract from your main point: that no DE knows all the other DE's, so yes, it is not impossible that Snape might not have known about Pettigrew at all. On the other hand, he may have turned to Dumbledore because one of the Marauders had invaded *his* service club and in revenge he would invade *theirs*. Erm - need coffee I think. Silverthorne: *Ducks head in shame* Forgot about all that...^^; Good thing I'm not a lawyer, eh? Mind if I join you for that coffee...? Anyway, back to the point--yeah, my main point really is that since the DE seem to decentralize their info, Peter being a DE and/or the Order spy was quite possibly *not* general knowledge amoung the DE. I suppose you could argue that Snape knew anyway, but then I have a second point: Obviously, Peter was not heard of by the other DE after he framed Sirius in the street (otherwise he would have been hunted down by his former allies when he went...um...missing)--so at that point, even if Snape knew, that might not matter later on in the Shack--after all, we are all pretty much in agreement that he did not know about the animagus forms of his former nemesis...so it likely did not occur to Snape that Pettigrew survived--but rather, may have cocked up his own frame job trying to get rid of Sirius... A second thought relates to the possibility that Snape was the one to tell DD about the attack in Godrick's Hollow--and how DD knew enough to get there so quickly (or send people anyway). We still dont really know when exactly Snape defected, and perhaps his 'real' defection was when he realized which DE was Pettigrew...and what that would mean if Peter opened his mouth again... That made some sort of sense I hope... Anyway...we also have to take into account that Snape may have been just as 'invisible' to Peter as Peter was to him while at DE functions--the 'protection' does go both ways. Which is how Snape may have found Peter out without the reverse being true.... Anne/Silverthorne **Going to drink more coffee before she opens her mouth any more today...:P*** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu May 27 14:19:27 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 14:19:27 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > I snipped a great deal. Very good post and you brought up a lot of > good questions. I hope we haven't found a major flow in the > writing...but given Jo's details in the rest of the series, I'll > overlook it if we have. > > It is very hard to believe that DD didn't know the marauders could > transfigure. Does anyone know where it is that DD speaks about it. Was he misleading us again? And certainly, he knew after the prank that the boys knew about the tunnel and the way to disarm the tree. Carolyn: Probably. What he says (POA, p.312, UK edition) is: 'Sirius told me all about how they became Animagi last night', said Dumbledore, smiling. 'An extraordinary achievement - not least, keeping it quiet from me. And then I remembered the most unusual form your Patronus took, when it charged Mr Malfoy down at your Quidditch match against Ravenclaw. So you did see your father last night, Harry..you found him inside yourself.' This doesn't say when he found out for the first time, only that he heard Sirius confess to their activities the previous night. It also only comments on his admiration for the Marauder's working out how to become Animagi without him knowing, not that he wasn't subsequently aware of a werewolf accompanied by two huge animals roving the grounds. And he more or less admits that he was previously aware of the unusual form that James' patronus took. Since Lupin was always accompanied by the other Marauders at all other times, and two of them in particular were extremely clever, and a by-word for trouble, it would not have been difficult for Dumbledore to work out what was going on once it was reported to him. Perhaps he thought Lupin deserved to run about in the fresh air, provided he was supervised - a very Hagrid POV! [And that's another person who must have spotted the four of them - Hagrid loves big dangerous animals, and was already an apprentice gamekeeper during their time at school. He would be the most obvious person to keep Dumbledore informed, even if he had no idea who the werewolf really was - again, surely he would?] The alternative is assume SillyOldBuffer!Dumbledore - which I am greatly tempted to do at times. Carolyn From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 27 15:40:46 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 15:40:46 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99569 - > Carolyn: snipping quote<< It also only comments on his admiration for the Marauder's working out how to become Animagi without him knowing, not that he wasn't subsequently aware of a werewolf accompanied by two huge animals roving the grounds. And he more or less admits that he was previously aware of the unusual form that James' patronus took. > >snip< > [And that's another person who must have spotted the four of them - > Hagrid loves big dangerous animals, and was already an apprentice > gamekeeper during their time at school. He would be the most obvious > person to keep Dumbledore informed, even if he had no idea who the > werewolf really was - again, surely he would?] > > The alternative is assume SillyOldBuffer!Dumbledore - which I am > greatly tempted to do at times. > Potioncat: Wow, a lot to think about. I'm not sure if Jo missed some details in her plot and these are holes. Or if there will more to learn. I used to think it was hardfast that DD did NOT know about the animagi. Now I'm not so sure. Unless he somehow blocked the shack from entry (Dementors perhaps) that tunnel would have worked for Black to use into the castle. DD would have to know that Black knew how to manage the tunnel. Now, if DD knew all along that Black was innocent.... Surely though, he never suspected Scabbers was Pettigrew? Back to Hagrid, I could see him knowing about the marauders and keeping quiet at the time. He keeps quiet about Harry. But I can't see even Hagrid forgetting that detail once Harry was at school and Black had escaped. Hagrid certainly believed Black was guilty. Oh, BTW, it was James' Animagus and Harry's Patronus that were stags. We don't know what James' Patronus would be. Potioncat From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu May 27 16:19:59 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 16:19:59 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99570 > Carolyn: > No, there is no door, all Lupin says is that 'Snape glimpsed me..at > the end of the tunnel' snip speculation on the size of the tunnel ... there are further unexplained aspects to > this part of the story. If it was possible for the Marauders to > somehow get in to the Shack in their gigantic transformed states and > lead a large werewolf out, what was to prevent Lupin getting out > anytime he was confined to the Shack? Was there not a danger he would > inevitably find the tunnel exit and rush out? There seems to have > been nothing to stop him. Surely all-powerful Dumbledore could manage > a blocking spell or two ? If he didn't why not? More forgetfulness ? > If he had put such a spell on the Shack, then the Marauders could > never have got Lupin out, in their transformed states or not. > > Making an effort to be charitable to DD, perhaps the simple > explanation is that a werewolf *is* too big to get down that tunnel, > and DD knew that Snape was never in any danger, and that's why no one > was ever punished for the Prank. In which case, how did Lupin get out > to play each month. > > The only other logical explanations are that there is another way out > of the Shack, or animagi can also shrink if they need to, or the > tunnel expands and contracts to suit the size of the people trying to > get down it (4) - again, not particularly safe for caging a werewolf, > don't you think? > > Whichever way you look at this, all the explanations are > unsatisfactory. We have no canon to support another exit from the > Shack. It is beyond credibility that the transformed Lupin, thrashing > around regularly once a month might not discover the exit to the > tunnel. The simplicity of the spells needed to prevent this are > obvious. snip more Ginger replies: When I first read this (and in subsequent readings) I imagined that Poppy was taking him down and then shutting him in- say a bar across the door, or a spell, either of which James and Sirius could have undone to release Remus, and then shut him in again afterwards. In post 99502, b-boy (Steve) explains, from canon, how there was no door, but rather an opening into the shack. I had not managed to get that into my mental picture as I had never put the Remus entrance and the HH entrance into my head at the same time. (Good post, Steve) In picturing it now, I am left to believe that there wasn't a barrier between the house and the tunnel, and that one could go straight out through the Willow unhindered. As Carolyn pointed out, this would have been too risky, as Remus could have easily escaped. So I put this out for debunking and/or comment: Suppose that a barrier, either magical or physical, was in place to prevent Remus from escaping. Sirius could have sent Snape safely down the tunnel, knowing that Snape would have been properly terrified, but that no damage would have come to him. He would have figured (and correctly so) that DD would have told Snape to keep the info to himself, so there would be no problems for Remus either. Suppose James rushed in, knowing that the barrier was in place, not to save Snape, but rather to save Remus' secret. When he got there, he could see no barrier (assuming that a magical one would be visible). All Snape sees is a werewolf at the end of the tunnel. The barrier is gone. He sees no one else. Sirius could not be there, in either form. As a human, he would have been unsafe, and as a dog he would have been big enough for Snape to see. James was behind him, so he wasn't there. Remus, we assume, can't undo the barrier. Who does that leave? One who knows his way down there, and can make himself safe as he was no longer human, but small enough not to be seen. Wormtail anyone? Motive: Unknown, but I am sure we can come up with one. I'll try this: Perhaps he thought that if he got Snape and good, that he'd be rid of all those who bothered him. Snape would be dead or worse, Sirius, James and possibly Remus would be expelled. He would no longer be a toady for the popular guys to belittle, nor would he have that nasty Slyth on his case by association. But it didn't work. James came out the hero and Sirius didn't get into big trouble. So he stewed about it, joined the DE's and the rest is history. So, limited canon, some reasonable deduction (that there should have been a barrier), and a lot of speculation. Thoughts? Ginger, tired, achy, and going to bed From gracekellyox2 at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 27 13:03:30 2004 From: gracekellyox2 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Grace=20Kelly?=) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 14:03:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wizarding Technology Message-ID: <20040527130330.31146.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99571 Hi all, I was wondering if anybody has any views on WW technology compared to Muggle technology and do people believe one to be superior to the other? Grace --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu May 27 15:03:49 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 11:03:49 -0400 Subject: Snape in Therapy? (was Re: Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99572 | Jo Ann | | ...who thinks DD's greatest mistake re. Snape is not insisting | that the guy | get into therapy! Hmm--interesting stuff. Now, what do you think WW therapy would be like? :-) A bit OT, I know, but, who knows, it might come up in one of the next two books?? Cheers, Lee :-) (Who wants to find some chocolate in the house!) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From snowwy54 at yahoo.com Thu May 27 16:49:42 2004 From: snowwy54 at yahoo.com (Susan Snow) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 09:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040527164942.31330.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99573 Here's my two knuts and the way I imagined it when I read the book. The way into the tunnel is magically sealed but at the whomping willow by the willow. Remus should not as a werewolf been able to prod the tree without being assaulted by it. But Peter as a rat was small enough to prod the knot on the tree. The rest in their animagi forms could travel the tunnel after Peter prodded the knot. I always imagined that Sirius told Snap to get a stick or other long object to prod the knot on the tree. Snowwy --- quigonginger wrote: > > Carolyn: > ... there are further unexplained aspects to > > this part of the story. If it was possible for the > Marauders to > > somehow get in to the Shack in their gigantic > transformed states > and > > lead a large werewolf out, what was to prevent > Lupin getting out > > anytime he was confined to the Shack? Was there > not a danger he > would > > inevitably find the tunnel exit and rush out? > > The only other logical explanations are that there > is another way > out > > of the Shack, or animagi can also shrink if they > need to, or the > > tunnel expands and contracts to suit the size of > the people trying > to > > get down it (4) - again, not particularly safe for > caging a > werewolf, > > don't you think? > > > > Whichever way you look at this, all the > explanations are > > unsatisfactory. We have no canon to support > another exit from the > > Shack. It is beyond credibility that the > transformed Lupin, > thrashing > > around regularly once a month might not discover > the exit to the > > tunnel. The simplicity of the spells needed to > prevent this are > > obvious. > snip more > > Ginger replies: When I first read this (and in > subsequent readings) > I imagined that Poppy was taking him down and then > shutting him in- > say a bar across the door, or a spell, either of > which James and > Sirius could have undone to release Remus, and then > shut him in again > afterwards. > Snowwy: Poppy does take him down to the shack and brings him through the tunnel and leaves him in the shack. When she leaves she goes back through the tunnel and reactivates the willow on her way out. > > In picturing it now, I am left to believe that there > wasn't a barrier > between the house and the tunnel, and that one could > go straight out > through the Willow unhindered. There is no barries between the tunnel and the shack but there is a barrier between the tunnel and anywhere else besides the shack. When they went to prowl the grounds Peter prodded the knot. The tunnel is big enough for the animals or Padfoot could not have drug Ron in during the Shreiking Shack Incident. > All Snape sees is a werewolf at the end of the > tunnel. The barrier > is gone. He sees no one else. Sirius could not be > there, in either > form. As a human, he would have been unsafe, and as > a dog he would > have been big enough for Snape to see. James was > behind him, so he > wasn't there. Remus, we assume, can't undo the > barrier. > Okay not it's your turn to debunk my ideas snowwy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From antonia at timself.net Thu May 27 15:25:15 2004 From: antonia at timself.net (Antonia Maria Duchesne Siemaszko) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 11:25:15 -0400 Subject: A thought which occurred when commencing a complete re-read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040527112331.0201f438@www.timself.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99574 Phil wrote: >Book 1, Chapter 1, Page 1. > >How *did* the Dursleys know that the Potters had a small son if they >were so intent on ignoring their existance? > >Indeed, how did Vernon know that Harry was "about the same age" as >Dudley? I personally presumed that even if she was ignored by her sister, Lily would have said SOMETHING about having a baby, maybe not directly to Petunia (maybe their parents were still alive? I Have no clue) But a baby is big enough news that even people ignoring you would probably have been told. Lily might have even TRIED to use it to get back in with her sister? You have a baby, I have a baby, lets be friends again? Tana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Thu May 27 16:38:20 2004 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 16:38:20 -0000 Subject: Deatheater Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99575 JKR was once asked about whether Hogwarts teachers had families or spouses. She replied that she would get to that in later books. I am wondering if Snape was, perhaps, married, and both he and she were deatheaters. Lord Voldemort killed her for failing him in some way (or whatever) as he seems to kill his own people (Sirius's brother-was it?- for instance). This is why Snape works with Dumbledore. His loyalty to L.V. is limited due to the severe emotional loss he caused him. Squidward From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu May 27 16:48:12 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 12:48:12 -0400 Subject: WW Communications (was Re: Sirius vs. Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99576 | From: mikefeemster [mailto:mikefeemster at yahoo.com] | Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 21:24 PM | | Mike Feemster: | | Another ket point in this whole sequence is that Dumbledore | should have gave Harry a means to communicate to someone in the | Order who is outside of Hogwarts. Sirius gave him the mirror, but | Harry was too concerned for his safety to use it. [Lee] No, Harry didn't even know what the gift from Sirius was until the end where He's repacking his trunk to go back to the Dursleys for the summer. It's then he finds the still wrapped package from Sirius, opens it and reads the note telling him it's a two-way mirror. So, here he had a way of communicating all the time and never knew it. I think that's what makes the whole death of Sirius so much sadder. | | If one argues that LV could see who Harry is communicating with | via this device, then let someone else use it. A good candidate | would have been Hermione. If she had a means to communicate with | Lupin, this whole scene could have been avoided. [lee] Yes, indeed. But Lupin didn't have a mirror, I don't think. Only James and Sirius had the original mirrors. | | That being said, this is her story and she writes it how she sees | fit. Still it is fun discussing the tactical aspects of the | operation. [Lee] And all the possible "What If" scenarios. Cheers, Lee Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 27 17:01:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 17:01:29 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99577 snip > Ginger replies: snip > So I put this out for debunking and/or comment: > Suppose that a barrier, either magical or physical, was in place to > prevent Remus from escaping. Sirius could have sent Snape safely > down the tunnel, knowing that Snape would have been properly > terrified, but that no damage would have come to him. He would have > figured (and correctly so) that DD would have told Snape to keep the > info to himself, so there would be no problems for Remus either. Potioncat: It's likely Severus would have dashed out of the tunnel yelling "werewolf!" but it's also likely Sirius wouldn't have thougth of that. He could very easily have expected to scare Severus. And once again did not think of Remus. Ginger: snip > > Who does that leave? One who knows his way down there, and can make > himself safe as he was no longer human, but small enough not to be > seen. Wormtail anyone? >snip > Motive: Unknown, but I am sure we can come up with one. I'll try > this: Perhaps he thought that if he got Snape and good, that he'd be > rid of all those who bothered him. Snape would be dead or worse, > Sirius, James and possibly Remus would be expelled. He would no > longer be a toady for the popular guys to belittle, nor would he have > that nasty Slyth on his case by association. Potioncat: The little rat that no one has missed in this story. He would most likely have expected to demonstrate his real skills out of the shadow of the others! Ginger: > But it didn't work. James came out the hero and Sirius didn't get > into big trouble. So he stewed about it, joined the DE's and the > rest is history. > > So, limited canon, some reasonable deduction (that there should have > been a barrier), and a lot of speculation. Thoughts? > > Ginger, tired, achy, and going to bed Potioncat: That's very interesting! All these years Severus has been mad at Sirius and it might be Peter who deserved his wrath! Do we have a quote from Jo that more info is coming about the prank or is that just something everyone is hoping? Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 27 17:08:09 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 17:08:09 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: <20040527164942.31330.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99578 A lot of snipping Snowwy wrote: > > There is no barries between the tunnel and the shack > but there is a barrier between the tunnel and anywhere > else besides the shack. When they went to prowl the > grounds Peter prodded the knot. The tunnel is big > enough for the animals or Padfoot could not have drug > Ron in during the Shreiking Shack Incident. > Okay now it's your turn to debunk my ideas > Potioncat: There must be another exit. I don't think they brought the werewolf back to the castle grounds before going off to "play." I also cannot see the stag fitting in the tunnel, but perhaps James didn't transfigure until after Sirius had Remus under control and James could come out of the tunnel. Potioncat who feels like she's crossed a fine and become like the fans at the "Galaxcy Quest" convention.... From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu May 27 17:44:19 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 17:44:19 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99579 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: (snip) > > So I put this out for debunking and/or comment: > Suppose that a barrier, either magical or physical, was in place to > prevent Remus from escaping. Sirius could have sent Snape safely > down the tunnel, knowing that Snape would have been properly > terrified, but that no damage would have come to him. He would have figured (and correctly so) that DD would have told Snape to keep the info to himself, so there would be no problems for Remus either. > > Suppose James rushed in, knowing that the barrier was in place, not > to save Snape, but rather to save Remus' secret. When he got there, he could see no barrier (assuming that a magical one would be > visible). > > All Snape sees is a werewolf at the end of the tunnel. The barrier > is gone. He sees no one else. Sirius could not be there, in either form. As a human, he would have been unsafe, and as a dog he would have been big enough for Snape to see. James was behind him, so he wasn't there. Remus, we assume, can't undo the barrier. > > Who does that leave? One who knows his way down there, and can make himself safe as he was no longer human, but small enough not to be seen. Wormtail anyone? > > Motive: Unknown, but I am sure we can come up with one. I'll try > this: Perhaps he thought that if he got Snape and good, that he'd be rid of all those who bothered him. Snape would be dead or worse, Sirius, James and possibly Remus would be expelled. He would no longer be a toady for the popular guys to belittle, nor would he have that nasty Slyth on his case by association. > > But it didn't work. James came out the hero and Sirius didn't get > into big trouble. So he stewed about it, joined the DE's and the > rest is history. Carolyn: Yes, what was Wormtail up to whilst all this was going on. The only one small enough to satisfactorily fit down the tunnel. I think it is very possible that he slipped down there and removed the protection for the reasons you suggest, and perhaps this was always his role - the others had specifically taught him how to do this, because they were all too big to get down the tunnel in their transformed states. Some questions, however: This still assumes a large werewolf could get out of that tiny, cramped tunnel, once the protection was removed. Is little Wormtail strong/brave enough as a rat to lead a raving werewolf out through the tunnel alone? If James knew the nature of the protection, and saw it had been removed, why did he not quickly reinstate it? Why was the protection, if it existed, so easy to break? One might expect something a bit better of Dumbledore..perhaps Poppy Pomfrey isn't too good at this sort of spell. If Snape has known the truth of all this for years, why is he still insisting they tried to kill him? It makes his obsession even more childish. Unless this is a deep-laid distraction, agreed between him and Dumbledore to cover up his spying activities. Have to say, his rage at the end of POA sounded pretty convincing ! Carolyn From LadySawall at aol.com Thu May 27 17:49:07 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:49:07 EDT Subject: Harry begins to act like someone I know... Message-ID: <24.574c9e7a.2de78413@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99580 In a message dated 05/27/2004 1:02:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Potioncat writes: > I agree, Snape has either set himself up to look like the bad guy > even when he isn't..or as a result of his not-so-pleasant personality > he always looks like the buy guy. This really contrasts with Crouch!Moody > who did some really bad things, but looked "good" doing them. > Can you imagine the reaction if Snape came into a DADA class and > said, I'm going to imperio each of you because DD thinks you need to > know how it feels? --- Jo Ann: I think Snape would wind up on the wrong end of about twenty Stupefies. That overgrown-bat chic of his really doesn't work for the whole trust thing. I suspect his not-so-pleasant personality just makes it easier for him to intentionally look like the bad guy. Now I'm wondering, though, whether there's more to it than just helping sustain a necessary illusion for the benefit of Draco and other Voldemort sympathizers. Could there be a situation coming where Snape will have to go under such deep cover that everybody except DD thinks he really *has* gone back over to the Dark Side? Hmmm. Jo Ann ...who still wishes someone would ask Severus how *he* would have taught Neville to fight a boggart. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu May 27 17:51:17 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 17:51:17 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 - no longer school stories? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99581 Book 5 took the action outside Hogwarts for big sections of the story: Grimauld place, St. Mungo's, the MoM. This pushing out from the Hogwarts "home base" had started in GoF, but not nearly to the same extent. I'm wondering if it's going to be impossible for Rowling to really contain the story at Hogwarts anymore, and if we'll be seeing the main characters moving outside the school for a lot of the action in the remaining two books. In a way, this would make sense, as one of the storylines is about how the Voldemort threat is breaking out into the wider wizarding world, and even further into the muggle world (though that isn't as convincingly presented). I don't see how Harry can remain at the centre of the story if he's stuck at Hogwarts all the time; despite the MANY pages devoted to Umbridge's nastiness and the burdens of exam schedules, not much of importance actually happened AT Hogwarts in Book 5. Is Rowling going to have to invent one pretext after another for Harry to escape in order to fight Voldemort somewhere else? Wanda From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 27 18:27:09 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 18:27:09 -0000 Subject: What is with the "Prank" ? - Pensieve Recall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > > Did Snape figure out that Lupin was a werewolf before the prank? > > It's not exactly cold fusion, you know..... > [snip] > > OOP chap. 28 > > ... " Give five signs that identify the werewolf...." ... said > > Lupin seriously as they joined the crowd thronging around the > > front doors eager to get out into the sunlit grounds. " One: > > He's sitting on my chair. Two: He's wearing my clothes. Three: > > His name's Remus Lupin.." > Phil comments: > > This ... Harry drew from the Pensieve. Apparently there is some > debate as to whether the images thus obtained are *directly* from > the memory of the person involved ... or whether the Pensieve > "boosts the reception" to allow extra information. > > If you believe the former, then this is direct evidence that Snape > *did* know. > > Mind you, it would appear that everyone within earshot would have > known also, .... > > .... So unless Snape was so much closer than anybody else to MWPP at > this point that only he overheard ..., the Pensieve must have > interjected this into the "recovered memory". ... > > Phil bboy_mn: I think we need to give the Pensieve more credit that is obvious at first glance. When we move through life our minds are recording a great deal more information than we are consciously aware of. We walk down the street and see ants on the sidewalk, but they are so insignificant to our current mental focus that we block them from our conscious mind; in other words, we ignore them. But that doesn't mean the visual images that entered our eyes were not recorded in our subconscious. Another example, we are in a cafe, and the people at the table behind us are having a conversation, with a few exceptions, we again blot this conversation from our mind (we ignore it) and concentrate on the converstation at our own table. But again, just because we ignored the sound, doesn't mean it wasn't picked up by our ears and recorded by our subconscious. This has been demonstrated by placing people under hypnosis in a police investigations for example. People who have no conscious knowledge of certain details are able to recall them when the barrier between their conscious and subconscious memory is lowered. The data is there even though they have no conscious recall. Another illustration is a person with a photographic memory. When they walk down the street or enter a room, they are not aware that they are recording detailed information of everything around them. In most cases they have no immediate recall of the small details. But when they force a mental image of a place or event to the forefront of their mind, suddenly amazing detail is available to them. So, given all that, I personally don't think the Pensieve has to 'fudge' much on the details. Even if, for example, Snape did not look over toward the tree where James and his friends were sitting, he has still seen that tree and the grounds around it many many times, and his memory would have been able to fill in the voids of the moment with general memories it had previously stored. Expanding this example, let's say Snape was hidden from view by the bush he was sitting next to. If he faintly heard Sirius or James voices in the distance, he would have been able to form a mental image of them from general knowledge of what they looked like and where they were on the grounds. So, he could have a fairly accurate mental image without actually looking. Then when he stood up to walk away, his preconceived mental image would have been spontaniously adjusted when he glanced in their direction. This is true even if he generally ignored them as he got up and turned to walk away. All these examples are trying to point to the fact that our brain records tremendous volumes of data as we move through life. Volumes of data of which a substantial portion never registers with our conscious mind. Based on that, I don't have a problem with the Pensieve showing unusually rich detail when it plays back a memory. But then... that's just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From sunnylove0 at aol.com Thu May 27 18:33:39 2004 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 14:33:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is with the "Prank" ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99583 In a message dated 5/26/2004 4:39:56 PM Mountain Standard Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: > If Snape wanted to kill himself, surely he'd use a potion instead. > And how, in your scenario, would James or Lupin have been > implicated? > > I meant that he might have been considering suicide as a possibility already...and then Sirius comes along with his tale about the Willow, and he sees a prime way to get his revenge as well. Remember that in POA, both in his speech to Harry after he is caught in Hogsmeade, and what he says in the Shrieking Shack, Snape believed that all three of them were in on the prank. I'm not saying it's likely, just possible. But I like your theory as well. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Thu May 27 18:41:48 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:41:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Books 6 & 7 - no longer school stories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99584 Wanda wrote: Book 5 took the action outside Hogwarts for big sections of the story: Grimauld place, St. Mungo's, the MoM. This pushing out from the Hogwarts "home base" had started in GoF, but not nearly to the same extent. I'm wondering if it's going to be impossible for Rowling to really contain the story at Hogwarts anymore, and if we'll be seeing the main characters moving outside the school for a lot of the action in the remaining two books. In a way, this would make sense, as one of the storylines is about how the Voldemort threat is breaking out into the wider wizarding world, and even further into the muggle world (though that isn't as convincingly presented). I don't see how Harry can remain at the centre of the story if he's stuck at Hogwarts all the time; despite the MANY pages devoted to Umbridge's nastiness and the burdens of exam schedules, not much of importance actually happened AT Hogwarts in Book 5. Is Rowling going to have to invent one pretext after another for Harry to escape in order to fight Voldemort somewhere else? Lady Macbeth replied: I don't know that she'll have to "invent" a lot of pretexts at all - logic dictates that if Voldemort truly is bent on taking back control of the wizarding world and later the muggle world, he's not going to care too much about disrupting classes at a secondary school. ^_^; Undoubtedly, with many of his Death Eaters imprisoned he'll be looking to recruit once again, and we've already gone over a number of candidates from Slytherin house - not all of which will graduate until Harry graduates. Also, who's to say there aren't potential recruits in the other houses? Even that aside, life in general is going to be stressful and disrupted for many families. I am actually seeing Dumbledore and the rest of his staff having a hard time keeping the school running as normal during the next two years, rather than having things that would pull Harry out of the school come as a "surprise" of any kind. This is particularly true when one considers that the biggest threats Voldemort perceives to his power - Dumbledore and Harry - are both well entrenched in the school normally. -Lady Macbeth No more bounces! No limits on mailbox size or attachments Check mail from your desktop, from the web, or with your cell phone! http://www.unlimited-mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sunnylove0 at aol.com Thu May 27 18:46:15 2004 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 14:46:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is with the "Prank" ? Message-ID: <1d3.221f9a6e.2de79177@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99585 In a message dated 5/27/2004 7:30:52 AM Mountain Standard Time, phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk writes: > > Mind you, it would appear that everyone within earshot would have > known also, and Lupin's secret would there not have been any more. > > As far as I can tell the number of people who knew Lupin's secret > remained strictly minimal. This remark must have been too quiet to be > generally overheard. So unless Snape was so much closer than anybody > else to MWPP at this point that only he overheard (unlikely :-), the > Pensieve must have interjected this into the "recovered memory". > > It would appear therefore that the Pensieve *does* "boost reception". > > However it does mean that this sequence can *not* be used as evidence > that Snape pre-knew. > > I think :-) > -- > Phil > I wasn't actually thinking about Snape overhearing them then, or that you have to hear and see things to put them in the pensieve. Harry sees Sirius and James's expressions while Snape's attention is focused on his essay. I was merely putting forward the point that MWPP talk about Lupin's lycanthropy *openly* which in any case is a very dangerous thing to do. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 27 19:06:51 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 19:06:51 -0000 Subject: The Good and Evil of Snape (was: Harry ... act like ...) In-Reply-To: <24.574c9e7a.2de78413@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, LadySawall at a... wrote: > > Jo Ann: > > ...edited... > > Now I'm wondering, though, whether there's more to it than just > helping sustain a necessary illusion for the benefit of Draco and > other Voldemort sympathizers. Could there be a situation coming > where Snape will have to go under such deep cover that everybody > except DD thinks he really *has* gone back over to the Dark Side? > Hmmm. > > Jo Ann bboy_mn: People have often speculated the Snape will prove his ultimate loyalty to Dumbledore by dying in a heroic effort to save Harry. My late night insomnia fueled fantasies have it going something like this. Harry is captured and held (rather than killed) by Voldemort. Snape makes his usual spy visit to Voldemort and discovers that he has Harry. In the process of interogating him, Voldemort forces Snape to Crucio Harry, and under the circumstances Snape must either do it or die; so he does. You have to admit that is a scene filled with bitter twisted ironies. Later, when Harry is placed back in the dungeon, Snape sneaks down and helps Harry escape. While Harry and any assorted friends who may also be on the sceen make a run for it, Snape holds off the DE's and dies so that Harry can escape. Gets to torture Harry and die a hero's death; banner day for Snape. While my 'fantasy' may not turn out to be accurate, I do think that we will see Snape in a position where he has to very obviously and unpleasantly prove his loyalty to Voldemort in order to prevent himself from blowing his SPY cover. It seems reasonable that this event would include Harry. So maybe I'm not so far off afteral. Just remember, you heard it here first. bboy_mn From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu May 27 19:16:53 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 19:16:53 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat (Was: The permanent problem with Slytherin House) In-Reply-To: <003101c442a8$5b1a3680$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99587 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" wrote: Book 1: '...Or perhaps in Slytherin, You'll make your real friends Those Cunning folk use any means, to achieve their ends....' Book 4: 'Shrewd Slytherin from fen...(snip) And power-hungry Slytherin Loved those of great ambition.... Book 5: > > 'Said Slytherin, "We'll just teach those whose ancestry is purest... > > For instance, Slytherin > > Took only pure-blood wizards > > Of great cunning, just like him...' > > > Silverthorne: > > *Small rant and a bit of disillusionment* > > Now that I've had *that* rude little awakening...I have to say that I > honestly *do* believe JKR is shooting herself in the foot--if we're to > believe that this *is* one of the absolute criteria the Hat is using for > Slytherin...that means she really *has* set up the House, as a whole, to be > 'evil'...no wonder she doesn't understand fans identifyng with it--they > bought into her whole 'Looks aren't everything' thing and applied it even to > the House that it should not be applied to, if we're following the hats > (her) rules. > > What happened to "The Label isn't Everything?" Everyone but Slyth house is > permitted that excuse, I guess.... Annemehr: A lot (or most? yes, probably most) of what I'm going to say has been brought up on this thread already, but I don't think it's quite been gathered together into one post about what JKR's intentions may be. First of all, I think that the following quotes are indeed JKR's voice: "Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." --Dumbledore, GoF ch. 37 "Though condemned I am to split you Still I worry that it's wrong,..." --The Sorting Hat's New Song, OoP ch. 11 It must have been quite deliberate on her part to put so many of the "nasty" characters, and most of the DEs & sons whose House we know of into Slytherin. But why? I think what she did was not merely to label people to make easy targets, but to show the *injustice* and *consequences* that labelling people can cause. Looking at the Sorting Hat quotes at the very top of the post, we see that Salazar Slytherin's criteria included folks who would use *any* means to achieve their ends and those whose blood is purest, as well as the more neutral search for those of great ambition. In other words, SSlytherin's ideals for his House included a tendency to choose children with very similar character flaws. I believe (and would guess that JKR intends) that the 11-year-olds who are sorted into each House have very similar *amounts* of character flaws. The thing that really makes the difference, though, are that in Gryffindor, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw, those flaws are likely to be very randomly distributed among their students. However, in Slytherin, though the first years are as a group *no more* flawed than their counterparts, there is likely to be an unusually high concentration of children who would tend to believe that the ends justifies the means and/or that having been raised in the WW or having purer blood is inherently "better." This means that SSlytherin's choice of students is going to have very real consequences to the students even of today. For example, in any one Gryffindor dorm, you may get an ambitious student, a lazy one, and one who is neither of those but a bit of a bully. They are all different, and with luck may tend to moderate each other's faults. But in Slytherin, where the faults that exist will tend to be more similar, they will feed an reinforce each other. Not only that, but there is the absence of Muggleborns who may have acted as a counterbalance, the "us against them" mentality that's engendered, and the likelihood that a Slytherinly way of thinking and acting has by now become an actual tradition of the house to be passed down to the new members. The causes of the situation, then, are these: 1)The Founders made the decision to sort their new schools students by their own preferred criteria (something that, as has been pointed out, can have advantages and disadvantages). 2)Salazar Slytherin's criteria result in at least the tendency for his house, and his alone, to have students with similar character flaws. 3)Members of a group who share many of the same faults will tend to have those faults reinforced and strengthened. How can JKR justify doing this, when one of her themes is supposed to be the importance of personal choices? Well, first of all, no matter how important "choice" is, no one is going to be able to order their life by their own choices. No, things are going to happen *to* you, and those things will have major consequences in your life. The importance of choice is in how you deal with what happens to you. And, by the way, what happens to you is not going to be "fair." It's not *fair* if you're sorted into the one house that's going to feed your faults and make life difficult for you. Secondly, this whole House situation is the direct consequence of the Founders' *choice* to sort the students, and of SS's *choice* in criteria for his. Your personal choices, then, may have profound consequences in the lives of any number of people, and it would be well to remember that. Third, and I am not sure whether this will be explored in the books, but it is not actually possible to judge between two people based on their actions. As an example, take two adolescents from Europe during World War II. Suppose they have roughly equal characters -- both about the same mixture of flaws and virtues -- but one is Rom (a gypsy), and the other is German. The Rom winds up in a concentration camp, and before he's killed, he does something generous (like share his food) for his little brother whom he loves. The German, who also loves his little brother, ends up taken into the Hitler Youth and ends up doing terrible things. One *looks* good and the other evil, but if their places had been switched the outcome may have been the same. Who agrees that if Dudley had been brought up by someone like McGonagall, he would have turned out much different? I'm not sure what JKR means to do with Slytherin in the future. I think Harry will indeed have reason to rethink his early judgments. I think JKR's scenario of the perniciousness of labelling people and of the dangers of group mentality is a valid point for her to bring up, even though it's more subtle than having "fair" Houses where each student is more likely to be judged on his or her own merits. I also think that some of her dismay at people identifying with Slytherin may stem from being worried that they are actually happy with the status quo. If she wants to make a point about the way Slytherin is sorted, people will miss it if they don't think anything's wrong to begin with. She may also not realise how much some Slytherin fans may be rooting for the "underdog," which is exactly what those students are in a very real sense. By the way, this is not to let Draco off the hook. True, he is at a disadvantage in that both at home and at school his faults have been encouraged. His choice, if he ever makes it, to be "good" will necessarily be much harder than your average Hufflepuff's choice. He may not actually be at heart any more evil to begin with than many others who look much better. Still, the choice is ultimately his to make. Annemehr who spent so much time pondering this that it's going up anyway, even if everyone else has moved on ;) From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 27 19:21:25 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 19:21:25 -0000 Subject: The Good and Evil of Snape (was: Harry ... act like ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99588 bboy_mn wrote: In the process of interogating him, Voldemort forces Snape to > Crucio Harry, and under the circumstances Snape must either do it or > die; so he does. You have to admit that is a scene filled with bitter > twisted ironies. > snip > > Gets to torture Harry and die a hero's death; banner day for Snape. >snip Potioncat: Foreshadowed by the scene in Umbridge's office and probably delivered with an appropriate quip...and Harry won't realize at all what is going on.... As good a scene as this plays...Merlin's beard...I hope not. From LadySawall at aol.com Thu May 27 19:35:47 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 15:35:47 EDT Subject: What about the Door (that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? (Long) Message-ID: <1ed.21b6933b.2de79d13@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99589 In a message dated 05/27/2004 1:02:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ginger writes: > All Snape sees is a werewolf at the end of the tunnel. The barrier is gone. He sees no one else. Sirius could not be there, in either form. As a human, he would have been unsafe, and as a dog he would have been big enough for Snape to see. James was behind him, so he wasn't there. Remus, we assume, can't undo the barrier. > Who does that leave? One who knows his way down there, and can make himself safe as he was no longer human, but small enough not to be seen. Wormtail anyone? > Motive: Unknown, but I am sure we can come up with one. I'll try this: Perhaps he thought that if he got Snape and good, that he'd be rid of all those who bothered him. Snape would be dead or worse, Sirius, James and possibly Remus would be expelled. He would no longer be a toady for the popular guys to belittle, nor would he have that nasty Slyth on his case by association. > So, limited canon, some reasonable deduction (that there should have been a barrier), and a lot of speculation. Thoughts? --- Jo Ann: Hmmm. Pardon the snippage...Pettigrew setting the whole thing up...it does explain what he was up to at the time, but somehow it just doesn't click for me. Pettigrew, as I believe either Sirius or Remus remarked, likes to have big friends to hide behind. Getting rid of the other Marauders would not be in his best interests, at least not at that point in time, while he was still in school. (Do we know at what point he joined the Death Eaters, btw?) Here's my theory: Remus didn't think rationally enough, when transformed and alone, to find and activate the knot-release. (Or he was just too big to get to it without being Whomped. IIRC, it was Crookshanks who let them out in PoA.) So he was allowed to wander the tunnel freely if he so desired--the Willow would drive him back if he tried to get outside. That's why the Willow was there; not just to keep people from finding the secret tunnel, but to prevent Remus from escaping. However, the tunnel is described as "very low" and quite narrow ("Lupin, Pettigrew, and Ron had to turn sideways to manage it.") It probably wouldn't be very comfortable or easy for a werewolf to navigate (though we know it isn't impossible, since he and the other Marauders wandered the grounds together.) So when alone, he'd stick to the Shack, mostly, where there was room to move around freely--though he might be too busy mauling himself in the absence of human prey to worry about it anyway. Only when the Animagi were with him would he have both the clarity of mind and the motivation to work his way all the way through the tunnel, and one of those three, likely Peter, would probably need to activate the knot. Sirius, knowing that Remus made a lot of noise when transformed and alone (I assume he was alone at the time, since we aren't told otherwise) sent Snape in thinking that (a) he'd hear the racket and turn back before he got close enough to the Shack to be in danger, and (b) even if he did get dangerously close, he would be able to get back through the tunnel faster than Remus could follow. (I'm still inclined to think that Sirius was too accustomed to being around Werewolf!Remus as Padfoot, and underestimated the danger he represented to humans in their natural form. He was also making the assumption that Snape would manage, in probably a rather panicked state of mind, to remember exactly where the knot was and to get to it without being Whomped. Very poor judgement on Sirius' part.) James, however, either knew Snape better than to think he'd turn around, knew Remus (and/or werewolf lore generally) too well to assume that the narrow tunnel would hamper him much when he was in a hunting frenzy, or both. So he immediately realized that Sirius had made a grave mistake and went after Snape. Snape got close enough to the Shack that Remus heard or scented prey and squeezed into the tunnel. Snape caught sight of him just as James caught up. Now here's the bit that makes me wonder: if Snape had already gotten close enough to see Remus, then would James pulling him back have made that much difference? Surely the moment he realized what he was looking at, he would have bolted anyway. The only thing I can think of that would account for the Life Debt, therefore, is that James must have managed to get between the two of them, shoved Snape back toward the far end of the tunnel, and then probably transformed into Prongs. James would be in real danger while in human form, and possibly afterward, as I doubt Werewolf!Remus would be happy to find his friend the stag cutting him off from his intended prey. But one way or another, he bought Snape the time to get out of the tunnel, without getting torn to shreds himself. I also consider it very likely that James was thinking of both Remus' and Snape's welfare when he went in, and for that matter, Sirius' too. He wouldn't have wanted Snape to get killed, Remus injured by any werewolf-affecting magic Snape might have up his sleeve, or either of his good friends charged with accessory to/attempted/murder, or...um...unlawfully inflicting lycanthropy? Whatever. :) Okay, everybody can now proceed to pick holes in my logic. Enjoy. ;) Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu May 27 19:55:07 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 19:55:07 -0000 Subject: Deatheater Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "casmir2012" wrote: > JKR was once asked about whether Hogwarts teachers had families or > spouses. She replied that she would get to that in later books. > > I am wondering if Snape was, perhaps, married, and both he and she > were deatheaters. Lord Voldemort killed her for failing him in some > way (or whatever) as he seems to kill his own people (Sirius's > brother-was it?- for instance). This is why Snape works with > Dumbledore. His loyalty to L.V. is limited due to the severe > emotional loss he caused him. > Snape's motivation has been the subject of many a post on this board with the theories ranging from LOLLIPOPS to permanently ESE. It's all very frustrating - there just doesn't seem to be any solid canon anywhere. True, JKR did say, hint, intimate, that there were significant facts associated with married members of the Hogwarts teaching staff. I'd pegged it for DD and Snape, like a lot of other posters - DD for blood- lines (probably related to Harry, though JKR has since scotched that one) and Snape for motivation. And yes, the death of his family at the hands of Voldy or his hench-wizards is high on my list. (See 68045, 69509.) Proving it is something else again. We have no tales of evil nastiness from his days in the DE Glee Club, no intimation of exactly what it is he does for the Order, despite that exchange between Harry and him in OoP. Why would he drop hints about his 'spying' to someone he *knows* is being tapped by Voldy? In fact he might be deliberately using Harry to mislead Voldy. Unfortunately all we can do is interpret what we have in different ways until it makes some sort of sense and then mark time until all is revealed. Fortunately the site is stuffed with theorisers, most of them vehemently disagreeing with all the others. It do make it fun. The best pointers (IMO) are the four memories recalled in OoP. Having a highly suspicious nature I down-right refuse to take these at face value. I think they're clues, not exposition. But that's just me. Consider, we are carefully informed that memories are not neatly files away and caution is needed when interpreting them. A few pages later three memories are exposed. A nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse, right? So alternative readings are an appropriate response. One is so bland it's probably just what it seems - a boy zapping flies. It's difficult to come up with anything really devious on that one. The scrawny boy on a bucking broomstick? It's Sevvy's memory, but the boy isn't Snape; it's James, the Quidditch star, hexed by Snape. Good joke, no? If so, this would give us a taste of the history of animosity between James and Sevvy *before* the Grey Underpants episode. Without this we only have Sirius's word that there was a history, and Sirius is not exactly unbiased where Snape is concerned. The crying child? Son-of-Snape. The adults are Sevvy and possibly Florence, the proud parents of this lachrymose tot. It's the only sliver of Snape's past I can see that might give a clue to motivation. A family. And since they don't seem to be around anymore..... The fourth memory presents a problem. "Worst Memory" - really? This bloke was a DE; a DE who broke away from Voldy - and teenage embarassment is his worst memory? I don't buy it. Sure, embarassment can be awful, but worse than death? Worse than some of the things he did as a DE? Worse than whatever it was that forced the split with Voldy? Never. DEs just don't leave the club. Not if they want to collect their pension. It must have been something truly horrendous that forced him away. Besides, that memory is a bit strange. The way it recounts words and actions make it seem as if it isn't Snape's memory at all. The Pensieve scene in GoF is staged very differently; it's DD's memory and DD's is the viewpoint we get. Harry sits beside him and sees what he sees. In "Worst Memory" that's not the case. Very odd. But what can a poor poster do? Apart from the occasional carefully limited snippet from DD and Sirius muttering a sentence or two, these memories are all we have from Snape's past. Make the most of 'em. Kneasy From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 27 20:00:29 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 20:00:29 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99591 > Carolyn: > No, there is no door, all Lupin says is that 'Snape glimpsed me..at the end of the tunnel' > > But, never mind the door, there is the little question of how a tunnel so small that the kids had to crouch double to walk along in POA (1), was big enough to take a full-grown stag, complete with antlers *and* a large werewolf(2)- at the time of the Prank, and at other times a gigantic dog (3). < Pippin: Everyone did not have to go down the tunnel. Peter, as the smallest, could freeze the willow. He could also easily negotiate the tunnel in rat form. Lupin, whose mind seemed to become less wolfish in the presence of the animagi, could then follow Peter to where the others were waiting, perhaps just inside the edge of the forest. Of course they had the invisibility cloak too. It's also possible that Padfoot could scrunch along on his belly as transformed Lupin must have. But Prongs couldn't manage the tunnel, so he must have rescued Snape in human form. Lupin says Snape didn't get all the way to the Shack but glimpsed him, Lupin, at the end of the tunnel. I gather that Lupin transformed while Snape was on his way. James arrived and pulled Snape back pursued by Lupin. Snape must have seen Lupin at the willow end of the tunnel. Lupin would have been held back from pursuit by the writhing branches. In werewolf form Lupin would have lacked either the intelligence or the manipulative skill to press the knot. I would think that ordinarily the werewolf would be compelled to stay at the shack end because of the proximity of the humans in the village. I'd guess that either Snape entered the tunnel on a dare, and thought all the werewolf noise was just a trick, or else he was bewitched. Centaurs do not ordinarily interfere in human business, so it is unlikely that they would have told anyone at the school even if they realized a werewolf and three Animagi were roving their forest. They wouldn't know that the werewolf was Lupin in any case, since there are apparently other werewolves in the forest. Is there a colony of exiled werewolves living in it somewhere, like a leper colony of old? The merpeople live deep at the bottom of the lake. After three and a half years at Hogwarts Harry didn't know they were there. Apparently they don't get out much. Any villagers who spotted Lupin during one of his close calls wouldn't necessarily associate him, or the large animals with the school. After all, most young wizards are hardly capable of such advanced magic. Hagrid wouldn't want to hurt an interestin' creature like a werewolf. He would give it a wide berth so it wouldn't be driven to attack him (assuming giant blood doesn't make you werewolf proof.) After four years of planning, the marauders would have had plenty of experience negotiating the halls with the invisibility cloak. I'm sure they gave themselves alibis. Who knows, maybe there was a friendly House Elf willing to say they'd been raiding the kitchens all the time. The marauders eventually made the map, which they could use even in animagi form (remember cat!McGonagall reading a map in book one?) so they could avoid watchers on the grounds or in the castle. There probably were some close calls. How much did Dumbledore know and when did he know it? I somehow think that if Dumbledore had been aware of what they were doing, he would have arranged a safer way for them to do it. As it was he was risking his own job if Lupin escaped. Peter must have been a godsend in getting in and out of Gryffindor Tower and Hogwarts undetected. He could slip outside without going through the portrait hole, then signal the others when the Fat Lady was asleep or off on one of her rambles. On the way back, he could enter first in rat form, transform back, then open the portrait for the others. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 27 20:15:03 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 20:15:03 -0000 Subject: What about the Door (that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? (Long) In-Reply-To: <1ed.21b6933b.2de79d13@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99592 Jo Ann, > The only thing I can think of that would account for the Life Debt, > therefore, is that James must have managed to get between the two of them, shoved Snape > back toward the far end of the tunnel, and then probably transformed into > Prongs. Okay, everybody can now proceed to pick holes in my logic. Enjoy. ;) > > > Potioncat: I forgot to make notes of snipping, but I snipped a lot. Your theory sounds good. My only thought is that neither Snape nor DD know that James was an animagus. So he must not have transfigured unless of course, he managed to transfigure without Snape seeing and come back out as a human. From entropymail at yahoo.com Thu May 27 21:17:25 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 21:17:25 -0000 Subject: A New Way of Looking at the Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99593 " and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..." Of course, as many have noticed, these last few lines of the prophecy make little to no sense whatsoever (grrrr!). How many hours have we stared at it with no satisfactory answer? Okay, here's the thought that I've been knocking about a bit (apologies, as always, if this has already been thrown out there): Perhaps the line isn't referring to Harry and Voldemort at all...not directly, anyway, and not in the way we've been thinking of. It seems to me that the prophecy may be referring to the two "factions" that have been warring inside Harry's mind and spirit for years. As we know, there's the true Harry -- the Harry he was born as and meant to be. But ever since that fateful night at Godric's Hollow, there's also been this dark, Voldemort-inspired side of Harry. The parsel-tongued, searing-scar Harry that yearns to sink his fangs into Dumbledore's throat. Though Harry thinks of it as foreign, as feelings "sent" to him from Voldemort, it is a side that has been with him since he was a year old, and has grown in strength and power as Voldemort has regained his own strength and power. Like it or not, it is very much a part of him and is battling him daily. So, perhaps the prophecy is referring to these two sides battling for control over Harry's mind and spirit...vying over who will, in the end, control his very life. Neither of these entities can truly control Harry while the other remains; till now, they have been two wills battling for control over one spirit. But, as we've seen, neither has been able to fully gain control over Harry...yet. Ultimately, only one will be able to survive, and the one which survives can only remove the other by a strength of will (a will which, I might add, we may have seen a glimpse of when Harry was beneath the sorting hat, begging not to be put into Slytherin). And so, back to the prophecy: ...and either (good-Harry-spirit or bad-Voldemort-spirit) must die at the hand of the other...for neither can live while the other survives. :: Entropy :: who like this theory because it means Harry doesn't have to die *or* murder Voldemort. Yay! From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 27 21:31:02 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 21:31:02 -0000 Subject: What about the Door slightly FF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99594 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Jo Ann, > > The only thing I can think of that would account for the Life > Debt, therefore, is that James must have managed to get between the two of them, shoved Snape back toward the far end of the tunnel, and then probably transformed into > > Prongs. > Okay, everybody can now proceed to pick holes in my logic. > Enjoy. ;) > > > > > > > > Potioncat: > I forgot to make notes of snipping, but I snipped a lot. Your > theory sounds good. My only thought is that neither Snape nor DD know that James was an animagus. So he must not have transfigured unless of course, he managed to transfigure without Snape seeing and come back out as a human.< Pippin: But how would a fully antlered stag manage the tunnel? A stag's not a burrowing animal like a dog or a wolf. I can't see one crawling, or fighting on its knees. My guess is that James flew straight from the window of Gryffindor Tower on his broomstick (we know Harry sometimes keeps his broom with him instead of in the broomshed.) He used his chaser's skills to toss a rock at the knot, rocketed down the tunnel on his broom, risking his neck at every turn and twist, and grabbed Snape. They escaped riding in tandem with Lupin getting closer and closer behind. They didn't dare to stop and hit the knot on the way out, so as they escaped they got walloped, James's beautiful, expensive broom was totalled, and to top it all off McGonagall showed up in her tartan bathrobe to haul them to the Headmaster's office to explain themselves. Pippin apologizing for the slight fan fic flavor From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 27 22:28:26 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 22:28:26 -0000 Subject: What about the Door slightly FF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99595 snip Pippin wrote: They didn't dare to stop and hit > the knot on the way out, so as they escaped they got walloped, > James's beautiful, expensive broom was totalled, and to top it all > off McGonagall showed up in her tartan bathrobe to haul them to > the Headmaster's office to explain themselves. > > Pippin > apologizing for the slight fan fic flavor Potioncat And one of the best I've read lately :-) Potioncat apologizing for the one-liner From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu May 27 17:44:20 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:44:20 -0400 Subject: A thought which occurred when commencing a complete re-read In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99596 | From: Phil Boswell [mailto:phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk] | Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 7:04 AM | | Book 1, Chapter 1, Page 1. | | How *did* the Dursleys know that the Potters had a small son if they | were so intent on ignoring their existence? | | Indeed, how did Vernon know that Harry was "about the same age" as | Dudley? | -- | Phil [Lee's Take]: True, Vernon and Petunia didn't make contact with James and Lilly, but it's possible that J & L didn't feel the same way and tried to keep some bridges open...sending a baby announcement, for example, or a picture? Possibly doing this through Muggle post respecting V & P's sensitivities? I've had a similar family situation where my relative doesn't seem to want any contact with us, but I continue to drop e-mail or leave messages on said relative's machine perhaps in hopes that one might be responded to, for good or ill. Guess it also shows the compassion of L & J if they were trying to maintain even a tenuous contact with P & V. Do dat make sense? Cheers, Lee :-) (Ever Hopeful) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu May 27 17:44:19 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:44:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] my Remus Is Good! crusade and sketchy Snape (was Lupin is worse) (longish) In-Reply-To: <20040527112032.LFBS1464.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99597 | From: Silverthorne [mailto:silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net] | Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 7:21 AM | | Snape may have never found out because he was never told. Kepe in | mind, that the DE are so paranoid that no single DE except | Voldemort knows who all the others are--so it's very likely that | Snape never found out because he never *saw* Peter for sure at DE | functions...(and. Peter may not have gone to gatherings anyway--I | dont think he ahs the Mark, so Voldemort calling his DE would | have no compunction for Peter to follow. Reporting himself to | Voldemort, though... Peter did have the mark, though. Volde, after his rebirth, orders Peter to hold out his undamaged arm upon which is the mark which Volde touches. When he does, Peter feels it; so does Harry in his scar. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu May 27 18:37:33 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 14:37:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Books 6 & 7 - no longer school stories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99598 [Wanda]: | Book 5 took the action outside Hogwarts for big sections of the | story: Grimauld place, St. Mungo's, the MoM. This pushing out from | the Hogwarts "home base" had started in GoF, but not nearly to the | same extent. I'm wondering if it's going to be impossible for | Rowling to really contain the story at Hogwarts anymore, and if | we'll be seeing the main characters moving outside the school for a | lot of the action in the remaining two books. In a way, this would | make sense, as one of the storylines is about how the Voldemort | threat is breaking out into the wider wizarding world, and even | further into the muggle world (though that isn't as convincingly | presented). [Lee] I would think that moving outside the boundaries of Hogwarts is not only possible but makes awfully good writing sense. If JKR were to keep wizarding centered at Hogwarts, things would become, indeed, very narrow. And, as for bringing in the Muggle world...I can't help but feel that Petunia and Vernon are gonna have to come to grips and deal with the possibility of Volde's evil. At best, Petunia may have to swallow her prejudices and, even if it means doing something behind Vernon's back, she may be called upon to help Harry in some way. [Wanda] | I don't see how Harry can remain at the centre of the | story if he's stuck at Hogwarts all the time; despite the MANY pages | devoted to Umbridge's nastiness and the burdens of exam schedules, | not much of importance actually happened AT Hogwarts in Book 5. Is | Rowling going to have to invent one pretext after another for Harry | to escape in order to fight Voldemort somewhere else? Not necessarily. He's got the summers during which time he's probably going to end up with Ron and crew or with the Order. Sure, he's not supposed to use magic, but if life is threatened, well....that's the exception, true? Also, Christmas Holidays can give him a reason to leave Hogwarts. Or, something can happen on a Hogsmeade trip. Guess I'm saying that she doesn't have to necessarily invent pretexts; they're kind of built in. Cheers, Lee :-) (Still munching chocolate!) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Thu May 27 19:44:57 2004 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 19:44:57 -0000 Subject: The Good and Evil of Snape (was: Harry ... act like ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99599 Jo Ann: > > other Voldemort sympathizers. Could there be a situation coming > > where Snape will have to go under such deep cover that everybody > > except DD thinks he really *has* gone back over to the Dark Side? > > Hmmm. bboy_mn: > Gets to torture Harry and die a hero's death; banner day for Snape. > > While my 'fantasy' may not turn out to be accurate, I do think that we > will see Snape in a position where he has to very obviously and > unpleasantly prove his loyalty to Voldemort in order to prevent > himself from blowing his SPY cover. It seems reasonable that this > event would include Harry. So maybe I'm not so far off afteral. This all assumes that he is "spying" as himself. JKR has never said exactly what Snape is doing for the Order, other than to find out what Voldemort's plans are. Perhaps he is an animagus who turns into a bat but who's been kept off (Dumbledore) the Ministry's official anamagus list (something that has been regularly checked by Hermione) as to conceal his identity when spying. Can animals perform occlumency? Mmmm... > Just remember, you heard it here first. Squidward From silvr23dragon at yahoo.com Thu May 27 19:51:55 2004 From: silvr23dragon at yahoo.com (silvr23dragon) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 19:51:55 -0000 Subject: The Good and Evil of Snape (was: Harry ... act like ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, LadySawall at a... wrote: > > > > Jo Ann: > > > > ...edited... > > > > Now I'm wondering, though, whether there's more to it than just > > helping sustain a necessary illusion for the benefit of Draco and > > other Voldemort sympathizers. Could there be a situation coming > > where Snape will have to go under such deep cover that everybody > > except DD thinks he really *has* gone back over to the Dark Side? > > Hmmm. > > bboy_mn: > > People have often speculated the Snape will prove his ultimate loyalty > to Dumbledore by dying in a heroic effort to save Harry. Here's a somewhat related question for you to ponder. Wouldn't Voldemort and the Death Eaters know that Snape is a spy? In the GOF when Harry is in the pensieve, Dumbledore vouches for Snape publicly. Wouldn't that knowledge be known? But I do also agree that something major is going to happen to Snape. What, I can only come up with crazy ideas. Mary From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Thu May 27 23:25:41 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 18:25:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] my Remus Is Good! crusade and sketchy Snape (was Lupin is worse) (longish) References: Message-ID: <000301c44441$ed5eea00$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99601 Peter did have the mark, though. Volde, after his rebirth, orders Peter to hold out his undamaged arm upon which is the mark which Volde touches. When he does, Peter feels it; so does Harry in his scar. Lee :-) Yep, Sigune already reminded me this morning! And I;ve already beta myself with a wet noddel for forgettiong about Voldy's neat little trick with Peter's arm in the cemetary... Thanks ^^; Silverthorne (notes her wacky ideas don't get much reaction, but her mistakes do! LOL!) From mnaperrone at aol.com Thu May 27 20:50:35 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 20:50:35 -0000 Subject: Deatheater Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99602 Kneasy wrote: > Snape's motivation has been the subject of many a post on this > board with the theories ranging from LOLLIPOPS to permanently ESE. > It's all very frustrating - there just doesn't seem to be any solid > canon anywhere. > The best pointers (IMO) are the four memories recalled in OoP. > Having a highly suspicious nature I down-right refuse to take these at > face value. I think they're clues, not exposition. But that's just me. > Consider, we are carefully informed that memories are not neatly > files away and caution is needed when interpreting them. A few pages > later three memories are exposed. A nod's as good as a wink to a blind > horse, right? So alternative readings are an appropriate response. > > One is so bland it's probably just what it seems - a boy zapping flies. > It's difficult to come up with anything really devious on that one. > Ally: Yeah, this just seems to mayb iform on Snape as a teen, assuming that is him: he is fast with the wand, alone, bored, in a dark room (mopey?) and destructive. Not totally unheard of for a teenager. > The scrawny boy on a bucking broomstick? It's Sevvy's memory, but > the boy isn't Snape; it's James, the Quidditch star, hexed by Snape. > Good joke, no? > If so, this would give us a taste of the history of animosity between > James and Sevvy *before* the Grey Underpants episode. Without > this we only have Sirius's word that there was a history, and Sirius > is not exactly unbiased where Snape is concerned. Ally: Interesting interpretation. A good possibility. But are these kids old enough to be at Hogwarts or do we assume this is an even younger James and Snape who knew each other before Hogwarts? If it's Snape hexing James in front of Lily while James is trying to show off, that would make sense as a precursor to lots of animosity. James certainly wouldn't have liked to be embarassed like that in front of someone he was trying to impress. > > The crying child? Son-of-Snape. The adults are Sevvy and possibly > Florence, the proud parents of this lachrymose tot. > It's the only sliver of Snape's past I can see that might give a clue > to motivation. A family. And since they don't seem to be around > anymore..... Ally: Problem: surely Harry would have recognized the adult as Snape, no? The text has him see a dark haired man with a hooked nose. If it was Snape yelling at his wife, why wouldn't Harry have immediately recognized him and the text reflected it? I think it was probably Snape in the corner there as a child and either a father or grandfather in the foreground yelling at the mother. > The fourth memory presents a problem. "Worst Memory" - really? > This bloke was a DE; a DE who broke away from Voldy - and > teenage embarassment is his worst memory? I don't buy it. > Sure, embarassment can be awful, but worse than death? Worse > than some of the things he did as a DE? Worse than whatever it > was that forced the split with Voldy? Never. DEs just don't leave > the club. Not if they want to collect their pension. It must have > been something truly horrendous that forced him away. > > Besides, that memory is a bit strange. The way it recounts words > and actions make it seem as if it isn't Snape's memory at all. The > Pensieve scene in GoF is staged very differently; it's DD's memory > and DD's is the viewpoint we get. Harry sits beside him and sees > what he sees. In "Worst Memory" that's not the case. Very odd. > Kneasy Ally: Well, but Harry is viewing DD's pensieve memory as if he were looking at a mirror - he only sees the surface of it. FOr Snape's, he plunges his head into the pensieve and actually immerses himself in the memory. That would be my explanation for the difference. My theory for why this is Snape's worst memory is that this was the event that turned him to the Slytherins who became DEs. Didn't Sirius describe him as a wierd little loner who was into the dark arts? Not sure if he used the phrase "loner," but I got the impression he didn't have many friends from Sirius' description. Certainly no one comes to his aid other than Lily, and there must have been some Slytherins on that crowded quad. Maybe Snape was pretty much a loner but either Bella and her gang intervened and he was pulled into their group thereafter or he turned to them for assistance or, maybe he retaliated in such a "dark" way in response, that they became impressed and sought him out. We didn't see that entire memory, after all. Snape pulled Harry out before he could finish watching it. Who knows what happened after that - I think its what happened after he was hung upside down that makes it his worst memory. Either that, or really did love Lily, and ruined any chance he ever had with her by calling her a mudblood. ; p Ally From mnaperrone at aol.com Thu May 27 20:30:23 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 20:30:23 -0000 Subject: The Good and Evil of Snape (was: Harry ... act like ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, LadySawall at a... wrote: > > > > Jo Ann: > > > > ...edited... > > > > Now I'm wondering, though, whether there's more to it than just > > helping sustain a necessary illusion for the benefit of Draco and > > other Voldemort sympathizers. Could there be a situation coming > > where Snape will have to go under such deep cover that everybody > > except DD thinks he really *has* gone back over to the Dark Side? > > Hmmm. > > > > Jo Ann > > bboy_mn: > > People have often speculated the Snape will prove his ultimate loyalty > to Dumbledore by dying in a heroic effort to save Harry. My late night > insomnia fueled fantasies have it going something like this. > > Harry is captured and held (rather than killed) by Voldemort. Snape > makes his usual spy visit to Voldemort and discovers that he has > Harry. In the process of interogating him, Voldemort forces Snape to > Crucio Harry, and under the circumstances Snape must either do it or > die; so he does. You have to admit that is a scene filled with bitter > twisted ironies. > > Later, when Harry is placed back in the dungeon, Snape sneaks down and > helps Harry escape. While Harry and any assorted friends who may also > be on the sceen make a run for it, Snape holds off the DE's and dies > so that Harry can escape. > > Gets to torture Harry and die a hero's death; banner day for Snape. > > While my 'fantasy' may not turn out to be accurate, I do think that we > will see Snape in a position where he has to very obviously and > unpleasantly prove his loyalty to Voldemort in order to prevent > himself from blowing his SPY cover. It seems reasonable that this > event would include Harry. So maybe I'm not so far off afteral. > > Just remember, you heard it here first. > > bboy_mn Ally That would be banner day for Snape - although I wonder if he would take much pleasure from inflicting physical pain? The only time we've seen him do it is in retaliation against James for being held upside down. In other scenes, he threatens with the wand but does not use it. I've had similar ideas - it does seem inevitable that at some point Harry will come face to face with Snape in his DE robes and they'll have to deal with each other in that context. If there was ever a way Snape will be forced to blow his cover, this way seems likely. Although, the way JKR loves to torment Snape, I could see him ultimately blowing his cover and still getting rescued by Harry in the end - thus owing a life debt to Harry, as well as James. Can you imagine any circumstance that would make his head explode from frustration faster? That would be a fate worse than death for him (which makes me think it might be very likely to occur). From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu May 27 23:35:58 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 23:35:58 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99604 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > snip > > Ginger replies: > snip > > > So I put this out for debunking and/or comment: > > Suppose that a barrier, either magical or physical, was in place > to > > prevent Remus from escaping. Sirius could have sent Snape safely > > down the tunnel, knowing that Snape would have been properly > > terrified, but that no damage would have come to him. He would > have > > figured (and correctly so) that DD would have told Snape to keep > the > > info to himself, so there would be no problems for Remus either. > > Potioncat: > It's likely Severus would have dashed out of the tunnel > yelling "werewolf!" but it's also likely Sirius wouldn't have > thougth of that. He could very easily have expected to scare > Severus. And once again did not think of Remus. > > Ginger: > snip > > > > Who does that leave? One who knows his way down there, and can > make > > himself safe as he was no longer human, but small enough not to be > > seen. Wormtail anyone? > >snip > > Motive: Unknown, but I am sure we can come up with one. I'll try > > this: Perhaps he thought that if he got Snape and good, that he'd > be > > rid of all those who bothered him. Snape would be dead or worse, > > Sirius, James and possibly Remus would be expelled. He would no > > longer be a toady for the popular guys to belittle, nor would he > have > > that nasty Slyth on his case by association. > > Potioncat: > The little rat that no one has missed in this story. He would most > likely have expected to demonstrate his real skills out of the > shadow of the others! > > Ginger: > > But it didn't work. James came out the hero and Sirius didn't get > > into big trouble. So he stewed about it, joined the DE's and the > > rest is history. > > > > So, limited canon, some reasonable deduction (that there should > have > > been a barrier), and a lot of speculation. Thoughts? > > > > Ginger, tired, achy, and going to bed > > Potioncat: > That's very interesting! All these years Severus has been mad at > Sirius and it might be Peter who deserved his wrath! Do we have a > quote from Jo that more info is coming about the prank or is that > just something everyone is hoping? > Potioncat. Hey, Potioncat! I am 99% sure that Jo said that in her last chat in march. I don't have a link right now, but I think the question and answer sounded something like that (very paraphrased): "Why Sirius sent Snape to the Shrieking Shack ? because Sirius loathed Snape and feeling was entirely mutual. You will find out more about the reasons in a due course". Again, it is very paraphrased and I could be wrong, of course. Alla From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu May 27 23:40:32 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 23:40:32 -0000 Subject: A thought which occurred when commencing a complete re-read In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > [Lee's Take]: > True, Vernon and Petunia didn't make contact with James and Lilly, but it's > possible that J & L didn't feel the same way and tried to keep some bridges > open...sending a baby announcement, for example, or a picture? Possibly > doing this through Muggle post respecting V & P's sensitivities? > This sort of information is often passed along by grandparents, too. Though Petunia may not have wanted to have much to do with her sister, it's not necessarily the case that she broke off relations with all her family, particularly her own parents. Of course, that's assuming their parents were alive at the time, which is something we don't have full information about. But having babies is the sort of family news that tends to get around somehow, and even the most fractious of families usually have some members who communicate with each other. Wanda From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri May 28 00:25:28 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 00:25:28 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99606 Alla said I am 99% sure that Jo said that in her last chat in march. I don't have a link right now, but I think the question and answer sounded something like that (very paraphrased): "Why Sirius sent Snape to the Shrieking Shack ? because Sirius loathed Snape and feeling was entirely mutual. You will find out more about the reasons in a due course". Again, it is very paraphrased and I could be wrong, of course. Snow replies: Nice memory Alla! I think this is the part of the chat you were referring to: Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow? JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course. Snow-aka Kathy King From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri May 28 00:25:43 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 00:25:43 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99607 Alla said I am 99% sure that Jo said that in her last chat in march. I don't have a link right now, but I think the question and answer sounded something like that (very paraphrased): "Why Sirius sent Snape to the Shrieking Shack ? because Sirius loathed Snape and feeling was entirely mutual. You will find out more about the reasons in a due course". Again, it is very paraphrased and I could be wrong, of course. Snow replies: Nice memory Alla! I think this is the part of the chat you were referring to: Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow? JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course. Snow-aka Kathy King From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 28 00:26:50 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 00:26:50 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99608 > Alla wrote: > I am 99% sure that Jo said that in her last chat in march. I don't > have a link right now, but I think the question and answer sounded > something like that (very paraphrased): > > "Why Sirius sent Snape to the Shrieking Shack ? because Sirius > loathed Snape and feeling was entirely mutual. You will find out more > about the reasons in a due course". > > Again, it is very paraphrased and I could be wrong, of course. > Potioncat: Hello Alla, Well for a parapharase it's on the button. You inspired me to look it up. It was in the World Chat. Not being very computer savvy, I've had to write it down and now re-type it: Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow? JKR: Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual.) You'll find out more about this in due course. So whether we'll find out more about the prank or about their back story, I can't wait!!!! Potioncat From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri May 28 01:18:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 01:18:04 -0000 Subject: Does JKR sees ambition as a flaw? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99609 In light of recent discussion about Slytherin house, I'd like to know the answer to this question. Now, I think we've established that JKR does not like Slyhterin house much. Frankly, me neither. For the obvious reason that she did not present any decent characters from this House.(Snape is a special case, because I've been thinking for a long time that he may turn out to be a Gryffindor). Again, I really dislike, even hate the pureblood bigotry, which is the heart of the Slytherin beliefs, at least as perceived by many. I also cannot make myself to like abstract, non-fleshed out characters, even if some of them saluted Cedric and Harry. But, I really, really want to care about Slytherins. If JKR indeed wants to convey a message that every year one quarter of Hogwarts first years are marked by Sorting Hat as potential Death Eaters, I find it silly. So, I finally come to my question. Putting the "purebloods are better than muggle-borns" drivel aside, Slytherins are still supposed to be ambitious. I read on the other list I belong to the speculation that JKR considers the ambition to be a greatest flaw in person. Could someone give me any ideas why. I alsor ead somewhere, maybe even on this lists that for many Brits ambition is not considered to be a virtue. Is it true? Alla From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri May 28 01:35:27 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 01:35:27 -0000 Subject: A New Way of Looking at the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99610 Entropy wrote: > And so, back to the prophecy: > > ...and either (good-Harry-spirit or bad-Voldemort-spirit) must die at > the hand of the other...for neither can live while the other survives. Annemehr: Not bad... hmmm... I'd like to play with this some more. I looked up the rest of the prophecy again to see if your new angle can apply to any of the rest of it. See what you think: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches....Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...." This can mean pretty much what it looks like -- foreseeing Harry's birth in July -- but the vanquishment in this phrase could mean the one in Godric's Hollow. Which leads to: "And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not..." That can mean LV marked Harry as his equal at Godric's Hollow, but Harry has power -- *Voldemort's powers* transferred that night -- and LV doesn't know about it. Next there's the phrase Entropy did, where either good- or bad-Harry-spirit will have to prevail, and then: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...." *This* could mean, that the battle between good-Harry-spirit and bad-Harry-spirit might *also* happen at the end of July, and whichever one wins will have the power to vanquish LV (for good or ill). So the phrase could have been repeated because it referred to two different vanquishments? > :: Entropy :: who like this theory because it means Harry doesn't > have to die *or* murder Voldemort. Yay! Annemehr: Oops! I think I messed that up for you when I had the winner-Harry-spirit vanquish LV again... And I always thought your signature was a little too orderly. Shouldn't it be something more like: . .:.tr p: .:E n:.o.y:. Annemehr who agrees with Entropy that "Harry" and "murder" don't belong together, either way From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri May 28 01:52:59 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 01:52:59 -0000 Subject: my Remus Is Good! crusade and sketchy Snape (was Lupin is worse) (longish) In-Reply-To: <000301c44441$ed5eea00$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99611 Silverthorne (notes her wacky ideas don't get much reaction, but her mistakes do! LOL!) Snow: Isn't it the truth! I've come to the conclusion that if no one answers your post, it must have been really good, or they didn't read it, lets not go there, I rather like my first response better. I feel this to be a true statement because I am guilty myself of not replying to a whole lot of great posts (including some of your previous posts) because of the, one liner statement of "I defiantly agree with you", or I had nothing significant to add. In conclusion, I would just like to add especially for the first timers here, don't let it bother you if no one replies, it just might mean you have a very good idea! Snow-aka Kathy King From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri May 28 02:41:46 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 02:41:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99612 > Mike Feemster: > > Another ket point in this whole sequence is that Dumbledore > should have gave Harry a means to communicate to someone in the > Order who is outside of Hogwarts. Sirius gave him the mirror, but > Harry was too concerned for his safety to use it. Marianne: Dumbledore tells Harry in Chap 37 "...I should explain that members of the Order...have more reliable methods of communicating than the fire in Dolores Umbridges's office." Evidently Dumbledore never clued Harry in to whatever this method is. No matter that he's the hope of the Wizard world to end the Voldemort threat once and for all. Why bother to give Harry information on communication potential ways to contact Order members in case of an emergency? No, best to keep the kid in the dark. So, not only did Harry not investigate or use the mirror, he was also clueless that another method of communication existed. Had he known of this method, he could have assumed that Snape would use this means to try to ascertain Sirius' whereabouts after Harry blurts out his cryptic "He's got Padfoot" message. And, if Snape knew that Harry knew of whatever this method is, then Snape would have to use it, whether he wanted to or not. And Harry, knowing that Snape would use this secret OoP communication method, would not have had to go along with Hermione's ploy on the fly to get Umbridge out of the way by the time consuming trip into the Forbidden Forest. Oh, but, had Harry not been kept in the dark, then the entire denoument that took place in the Dept. of Mysteries could have been avoided. Can you say "plot device?" Marianne From jferer at yahoo.com Fri May 28 02:52:35 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 02:52:35 -0000 Subject: Does JKR sees ambition as a flaw? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99613 Alla: "But, I really, really want to care about Slytherins. If JKR indeed wants to convey a message that every year one quarter of Hogwarts first years are marked by Sorting Hat as potential Death Eaters, I find it silly." Not necessarily "one quarter." There are no quotas whatsoever to the Sorting Hat. If every first year but one was best suited for Hufflepuff, that's what the Hat would do. Or for any House. The law of averages being what it is, that doesn't happen, but we can't assume anything about the proportions sorted into each House. Many people, including me, have speculated that Hufflepuff might have many more students than other houses, just because there's more average kids that exceptional ones. Maybe. So, I finally come to my question. Putting the "purebloods are better than muggle-borns" drivel aside, Slytherins are still supposed to be ambitious. I read on the other list I belong to the speculation that JKR considers the ambition to be a greatest flaw in person." I don't think so. Harry has ambition, "a thirst to prove [himself]" lots of it, as the Hat said. So does Cedric, with his striving for excellence, and Hermione. JKR does seem to believe ambition has its risks, though, and the Hat articulates one of them: "Those cunning folk will use any means to achieve their ends." To JKR, it's all about *choices,* as she would have Dumbledore say in CoS. How does one go about achieving their ambition? What are you willing to do to get where you want to go? What will it do to you? There's a lot of choices to make on the way, and JKR think's they're important for who her characters become. Alla: "Could someone give me any ideas why. I also read somewhere, maybe even on this lists that for many Brits ambition is not considered to be a virtue. Is it true?" I don't know, being a Yank, but you're asking of denying human nature is a common British characteristic. I doubt it. Jim Ferer From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri May 28 02:58:48 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 02:58:48 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99614 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > Potioncat: > Wow, a lot to think about. I'm not sure if Jo missed some details > in her plot and these are holes. Or if there will more to learn. I > used to think it was hardfast that DD did NOT know about the > animagi. Now I'm not so sure. > > Unless he somehow blocked the shack from entry (Dementors perhaps) > that tunnel would have worked for Black to use into the castle. DD > would have to know that Black knew how to manage the tunnel. Now, > if DD knew all along that Black was innocent.... Marianne: No, it wouldn't. The tunnel to the Shrieking Shack extends from the Shack to the Whomping Willow. It doesn't go into the castle. So, whether or not Dumbledore knew or suspected that Sirius knew about that tunnel, it wouldn't necessarily mean that Sirius knew of other tunnels that actually did lead into the castle. Potioncat: > Back to Hagrid, I could see him knowing about the marauders and > keeping quiet at the time. He keeps quiet about Harry. But I can't > see even Hagrid forgetting that detail once Harry was at school and > Black had escaped. Hagrid certainly believed Black was guilty. Marianne: I agree. But, do we know what Hagrid's opinion is about werewolves? If Dumbledore told all of the staff about Remus Lupin - Student Werewolf, I would assume that Hagrid would have been told, too. And Hagrid, living at the edge of the Forest, with a keen interest in creatures, would seem to be the ideal person to keep an eye out to make sure there were no problems with the containment of Remus! Werewolf within the Shrieking Shack. James, etal., finally became Animagi in their 5th year. So, for 2+ years, MWPP were galivanting around on full moon nights with an unfettered werewolf. Does it seem odd that Hagrid never discovered this? Marianne From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri May 28 03:07:22 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 03:07:22 -0000 Subject: Does JKR sees ambition as a flaw? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99615 Alla wrote previously: > So, I finally come to my question. Putting the "purebloods are better > than muggle-borns" drivel aside, Slytherins are still supposed to be > ambitious. I read on the other list I belong to the speculation that > JKR considers the ambition to be a greatest flaw in person." > "Jim Ferer" wrote: > I don't think so. Harry has ambition, "a thirst to prove [himself]" > lots of it, as the Hat said. So does Cedric, with his striving for > excellence, and Hermione. > Too true. Harry and Hermione are ambitious indeed, but do you think that Harry's ambition is one of the qualities in character influenced by Voldie? don't get me wrong, I don't consider an ambition to be a bad thing,as long as you don't hurt other people, while striving to achieve your goals . ( I am an ambitious person myself). But I can't help but think that maybe JRK does not like it much. > Alla previously: "Could someone give me any ideas why. I also read somewhere, > maybe even on this lists that for many Brits ambition is not > considered to be a virtue. Is it true?" > > I don't know, being a Yank, but you're asking of denying human nature > is a common British characteristic. I doubt it. > > Jim Ferer I was half joking, when I asked that part, but I definitely read it somewhere. ;o) Alla From jasnyder at intrex.net Fri May 28 03:09:53 2004 From: jasnyder at intrex.net (Jen Snyder) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 23:09:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99616 Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote: >And while Harry will be at the >center of the struggle, I suspect that there will be so many friends >and allies who help him get there, that he will be one hero among >many. He feels alone now but I think that will change when he learns >to trust others to help him. But what if, by the end of Book 7, most of those friends and allies are dead? Not to mention his parents, Sirius, etc. Perhaps Harry would look forward to death as a chance to reunite with friends and meet the parents he never knew...I could see an ending where Harry's death is viewed not as tragic but more as a well-earned chance for some peace and happiness... Jen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri May 28 03:17:47 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 03:17:47 -0000 Subject: Deatheater Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99617 > Ally: > Well, but Harry is viewing DD's pensieve memory as if he were looking > at a mirror - he only sees the surface of it. FOr Snape's, he > plunges his head into the pensieve and actually immerses himself in > the memory. That would be my explanation for the difference. > > My theory for why this is Snape's worst memory is that this was the > event that turned him to the Slytherins who became DEs. > > Didn't Sirius describe him as a wierd little loner who was into the > dark arts? Not sure if he used the phrase "loner," but I got the > impression he didn't have many friends from Sirius' description. Marianne: No, the word "loner" never comes up from Sirius. He merely said that Snape arrived at Hogwarts knowing more curses than half the kids in seventh year. And that he hung out with a bunch of Slytherins who all became DEs. This implies to me that Snape was not a friendless, complete loner, as many want to believe after seeing the "Worse Memory" scene. On the other hand, Sirius may not be the best source of unbiased info on Snape. Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri May 28 03:25:46 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 03:25:46 -0000 Subject: A New Way of Looking at the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99618 > Entropy wrote: > > > ...and either (good-Harry-spirit or bad-Voldemort-spirit) must die at > > the hand of the other...for neither can live while the other survives. > Annemehr: > Not bad... hmmm... I'd like to play with this some more. > I looked up the rest of the prophecy again to see if your new angle > can apply to any of the rest of it. See what you think: > > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches....Born > to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...." > This can mean pretty much what it looks like -- foreseeing Harry's > birth in July -- but the vanquishment in this phrase could mean the > one in Godric's Hollow. Which leads to: > > "And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power > the Dark Lord knows not..." > That can mean LV marked Harry as his equal at Godric's Hollow, but > Harry has power -- *Voldemort's powers* transferred that night -- and > LV doesn't know about it. > > Next there's the phrase Entropy did, where either good- or > bad-Harry-spirit will have to prevail, and then: > > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the > seventh month dies...." > *This* could mean, that the battle between good-Harry-spirit and > bad-Harry-spirit might *also* happen at the end of July, and whichever > one wins will have the power to vanquish LV (for good or ill). So the > phrase could have been repeated because it referred to two different > vanquishments? Marianne: Or is this a reference to Neville, who was born the same time as Harry? Perhaps, under this interpretation, Neville has the power to vanquish or subdue the bad-Harry-spirit, and thus allow the good- Harry-spirit to prevail in the ultimate battle. It seems that Neville is starting to come into his own and become more confident in his abilities. I can't help but think that means he will have some crucial part to play in the next two books. Marianne From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri May 28 03:39:32 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 21:39:32 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000d01c44465$6446e550$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 99619 Jen wrote: But what if, by the end of Book 7, most of those friends and allies are dead? Not to mention his parents, Sirius, etc. Perhaps Harry would look forward to death as a chance to reunite with friends and meet the parents he never knew...I could see an ending where Harry's death is viewed not as tragic but more as a well-earned chance for some peace and happiness... Jen Sherry says: Oh, I shudder at that idea! He will only be 17, and I don't want to think of it being a comfort for a boy that young to die! Thinking of the kids who will be reading the books and knowing the high rate of teenage suicide, I guess I could take almost any ending better than Harry finding it a comfort to die and be reunited with his parents. I don't want Harry to die at all, but if he must, I hope it is not something he thinks of as a rest from his trials or a comfort. sherry G From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri May 28 03:45:12 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 03:45:12 -0000 Subject: Dan's predictions -- followed by pain and grief. In-Reply-To: <000d01c44465$6446e550$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99620 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > Jen wrote: > > But what if, by the end of Book 7, most of those friends and allies are > dead? Not to mention his parents, Sirius, etc. Perhaps Harry would look > forward to death as a chance to reunite with friends and meet the parents he > never knew...I could see an ending where Harry's death is viewed not as > tragic but more as a well-earned chance for some peace and happiness... > > Jen > > Sherry says: > > Oh, I shudder at that idea! He will only be 17, and I don't want to think > of it being a comfort for a boy that young to die! Thinking of the kids who > will be reading the books and knowing the high rate of teenage suicide, I > guess I could take almost any ending better than Harry finding it a comfort > to die and be reunited with his parents. I don't want Harry to die at all, > but if he must, I hope it is not something he thinks of as a rest from his > trials or a comfort. > > sherry G Alla: I don't want Harry to die either. I want him to find some peace and happiness here first, before he will move to his "next great adventure". But, if he dies, I most definitely want him to be reunited with his loved ones. JKR clearly indicated that there are voices behind the veil, so it is a palusible idea. It does not mean that Harry should think about death as chance for comfort, maybe it will come as a surprise. Alla, who is looking forward to spending Memorial Day in Boston, but is a little annoyed that she won't have internet access there. :o) From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri May 28 03:52:52 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 03:52:52 -0000 Subject: Does Harry Hate LV? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99621 Here's a ridiculous question, and my cursory searches through the archives of YahooMort have turned up nothing, so I post this for discussion. Is there any place in cannon where it says that Harry hates LV? Or wants to revenge himself on LV? Or even fears LV? I just reread all the books and it struck me as odd that there were no refernces, that I noticed anyway, to Harry hating or wanting vengence on LV. We have heard him say (well, heard him think, rather) that he hates Malfoy, hates Snape, that he's been angry with DD and others, but I don't recall ever reading that he hates Voldemort. In the Shreiking Shack scene, when he still believes Sirius Black to be the traitor that killed his parents, Harry wants his wand back not to defend himself, but to attack and kill Black. At the end of the DoM battle he says he wants to kill Bellatrix LeStrange for what she did to Sirius. But why are there no such feelings when he is confronted with LV moments later? Why is it that Harry considers the meaning of the prophecy to be that he must committ murder (kill LV), when not only would he surely not be punnished for such an action, not only would said action be completely justified, and not only would there be a line of a thousand wizards probably willing to do the same (and who would probably have no qualms about it) but if Harry were to complete the prophecy, he would be regarded as a hero, even more so than before. I only ask because my Star Wars came screaming back to me tonight, and wasn't vengance one of the first things that Luke Skyalker wanted when he found out about Darth Vader "killing" his father? Anyway, submitted for your approval or stoning... Meri - who wonders if JKR has in fact created an overly moral hero From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri May 28 04:43:26 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 04:43:26 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Mommy_can=92t_protect_you_forever?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99622 Annemehr wrote: So, to get back to the locked door: if it hides Love, it is not anyone's love in particular, Harry's or Lily's or anyone else's, but must be some manifestation or symbol of Love in general. The other rooms had concretised aspects of their themes: time turners and the bell jar, a tank of brains, floating planets, a doorway with a veil -- all things which would have their various effects on you if you meddled with them. The locked door may well hide something of that sort. And, no, I can't imagine what form it might take without coming up with something silly (like lacy valentines :P). vmonte responds: I wonder if the door to the room of "love" opens in the same way that the room of requirement opens? I'm also curious about how exactly JKR will physically manifest love? If the "curtain" is the gateway to death, can this room be rebirth? Also, Harry's blood, which carries love, is now in Voldemort. What if Voldemort and Harry end up in this room at the end of book 7? Is this where Harry's blood will react against Voldemort? Why does the name Tom Riddle evoke the feeling in Harry that he is being reacquainted with a childhood friend (CoS)? If a part of Voldemort's "essence" blasted into Harry at GH, will it be forced to reveal itself in this "love" room? What if Tom Riddle seems familiar because it's part of Voldemort's psyche, which has been sharing space in Harry's head? And how has that psyche changed by living in Potter all those years? vmonte From Mariofett1187 at aol.com Fri May 28 03:42:57 2004 From: Mariofett1187 at aol.com (mariofett1187) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 03:42:57 -0000 Subject: What did making eye contact with Dumbledore have to do with it? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99623 Dumbledore was not very clear while explaining everything at the end of the fifth book. Why would Voldemort seeing Dumbledore through Harry make it more likely that Harry would be possessed? At first Albus said that the fear was that Voldemort might use Harry to spy on the order, but afterwards he said that the fear was that Harry would be in danger. What gives? "mariofett" From Mariofett1187 at aol.com Fri May 28 03:38:32 2004 From: Mariofett1187 at aol.com (mariofett1187) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 03:38:32 -0000 Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99624 Dumbledore explains to Harry at the end of OoTP the magic protecting him at Privet Drive-but why did Petunia accept the baby on her doorstep, when she and Vernon wanted nothign to do with Lily's family? On a related note, is Harry vulnerable to attack by Voldemort when he wanders around Little Whinging? Dumbledore said that he is protected only when he is in the Dursley's house. "mariofett" From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri May 28 05:04:35 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 01:04:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Deatheater Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99625 | From: mnaper2001 [mailto:mnaperrone at aol.com] | Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 16:51 PM | Ally: | Well, but Harry is viewing DD's pensieve memory as if he were looking | at a mirror - he only sees the surface of it. FOr Snape's, he | plunges his head into the pensieve and actually immerses himself in [Lee] Um--I can't give exact quote in GOF, but with Dd's memory, Harry started out looking into the penceive; he leans closer anc closer and the tip of his nose touches the substance and he is, indeed, then dragged right into the memory. So, both times he was really in the memory, as I Perceive it. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From LadySawall at aol.com Fri May 28 05:41:35 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 01:41:35 EDT Subject: The Good and Evil of Snape Message-ID: <1d3.222b46f8.2de82b0f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99626 In a message dated 05/28/2004 12:22:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Mary writes: > Here's a somewhat related question for you to ponder. Wouldn't Voldemort and the Death Eaters know that Snape is a spy? In the GOF when Harry is in the pensieve, Dumbledore vouches for Snape publicly. Wouldn't that knowledge be known? --- Jo Ann: I've been wondering for some time now whether even Snape is sure which side he's on. (Going on the assumption here that he really is a spy, which is, I know, an arguable theory.) He may be surviving by walking a very narrow line between Dumbledore and Voldemort, being as useful as he possibly can be to both while avoiding actions that will damn him in the eyes of either. Using each as an excuse against the other. The perverse thing is, both DD and LV may be completely aware of this fact, with DD trying to play it both ways (allowing Severus to continue this precarious balancing act and just hoping he won't fall) and LV using him for all he's worth. If you're into the DD as Machiavellian manipulator theme (I'm not, especially, but I can see how it would work,) then it could almost be seen as a conscious game that he and Voldemort are playing. Each giving up bits and pieces of useful intelligence, even sacrificing pieces here and there, in the hopes of creating a diversion from something more important, or of getting something back that will prove more important than his opponent realizes. Which would put our unfortunate Potions Master in a highly uncomfortable position. If this is anywhere near true, then the question is, how long can Snape keep it up; and when he's forced to finally choose (as he surely will be,) which side will he land on? Or will he finally make a critical mistake that will get him killed or otherwise discombobulated? Or quite simply reach the end of his usefulness? I'd really hate to see him just fail to return from a meeting with the Death Eaters one day, and show up at a later time brainwashed and fighting against the Order. With Voldemort giggling madly in the background... Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Mariofett1187 at aol.com Fri May 28 04:04:01 2004 From: Mariofett1187 at aol.com (mariofett1187) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 04:04:01 -0000 Subject: Why did Voldemort wait a year after Harry and Neville were born? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99627 First of all, why did Voldemort wait a year? He knew the baby would be born on July 31st that year, and he must have been rather eager to kill the one that threatened him, so why didn't he attack the Potter's right away? Two related questions: 1) Why did he attack Harry and not Neville? 2) Why was the Fidelius chamr only put on the Potters a week before the attack? Did they have some kind of warning that Voldemort would be coming soon? "mariofett" From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Fri May 28 05:15:31 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 05:15:31 -0000 Subject: Does Harry Hate LV? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: I > just reread all the books and it struck me as odd that there were no > refernces, that I noticed anyway, to Harry hating or wanting > vengence on LV. We have heard him say (well, heard him think, > rather) that he hates Malfoy, hates Snape, that he's been angry with > DD and others, but I don't recall ever reading that he hates > Voldemort. In the Shreiking Shack scene, when he still believes > Sirius Black to be the traitor that killed his parents, Harry wants > his wand back not to defend himself, but to attack and kill Black. > At the end of the DoM battle he says he wants to kill Bellatrix > LeStrange for what she did to Sirius. But why are there no such > feelings when he is confronted with LV moments later? Why is it that > Harry considers the meaning of the prophecy to be that he must > committ murder (kill LV), when not only would he surely not be > punnished for such an action, not only would said action be > completely justified, and not only would there be a line of a > thousand wizards probably willing to do the same (and who would > probably have no qualms about it) but if Harry were to complete the > prophecy, he would be regarded as a hero, even more so than before. You bring up an interesting point. If it has never been directly stated that Harry hates Voldemort, I offer this from the first book to show that he has strong feeling where he is concerned. In chapter 16, Hermione is trying to get Harry to reconsider trying to go down through the trapdoor. Harry explodes into a rant about what will happen if Snape gets the stone. He finishes this rant with, "Voldemort killed my parents, remember?" Before all of this took place, Harry made a vow not interfere with anything that didn't concern him. This was after they got in trouble by Filch. The strong emotion displayed by Harry, and the willingness to risk everything that is dear to him, makes me conclude that he does in fact hate Voldemort. Although it is not expressly stated, I hope I showed how Harry feels. Mike Feemster From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri May 28 06:51:47 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 06:51:47 -0000 Subject: Does JKR sees ambition as a flaw? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: Alla: > I read on the other list I belong to the speculation that > JKR considers the ambition to be a greatest flaw in person. > > Could someone give me any ideas why. I alsor ead somewhere, maybe > even on this lists that for many Brits ambition is not considered to > be a virtue. Is it true? Geoff: I think we consider it alright if it is kept in context. The problem is when ambition takes over to the exclusion of everything else - which is not a trait confined to us here in Britain. In my teaching career, I came across a couple of colleagues who were determined to get to the top by hook or by crook and, quite frankly, alienated many friends and colleagues on their way up. There was one who went off to be a headmaster in another local school. We had, at one point run against each other for a post in our own school. Some while later, I put in a request for application forms for a job at his place and received a personal letter back in which he told how hard he had worked to get the job he now had and implying that, because I didn't spend all my time chatting up the people who were involved in the decision-making process, I was a no-hoper in that area. Needless to say, I didn't proceed any further with the application! But that is the sort of ambition which I think JKR is objecting to and which is perhaps more noticeable in Slyterin, the climbing over other people regardlessly to reach the top. After all, Flanders and Swann put it, when speaking in particular of the English, that we are "clever and modest and misunderstood" :-) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 28 07:14:55 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 07:14:55 -0000 Subject: The Good and Evil of Snape (was: Harry ... act like ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "silvr23dragon" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > People have often speculated the Snape will prove his ultimate > > loyalty to Dumbledore by dying in a heroic effort to save Harry. > Mary: > > Here's a somewhat related question for you to ponder. Wouldn't > Voldemort and the Death Eaters know that Snape is a spy? In the GOF > when Harry is in the pensieve, Dumbledore vouches for Snape > publicly. Wouldn't that knowledge be known? But I do also agree > that something major is going to happen to Snape. What, I can only > come up with crazy ideas. > > Mary bboy_mn: The only scenerio I can come up with that allows Snape to continue as a spy is if Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore to pretent to join the good side. That way Voldemort would have a spy in Dumbledore's organization. Once Snape had worked his way into Dumbedore's organization he saw the error of his ways and became a true spy for Dumbledore. He's a double agent; he pretends to spy for both side with the knowledge of both side, each thinking that he is truly working for them and pretending to work for the other. That's the only way, at this later date, that Snape could have maintained his friendship with Malfoy, and now have rejoined Voldemort. Part of being a double agent means that to some extent you have to betray both sides, but you just betray the side you are truly aligned with a little less. bboy_mn From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Fri May 28 07:18:27 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 07:18:27 -0000 Subject: Shared core? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99631 I have a cannon question but its from a quote to do with the 4th movie so hope this doesn't qualify as movie contamination! If so, apologies in advance. On Ceefax this morning Daniel Radcliffe (sp?) said he thought Harry would die as he and Voldemort share the same core which you see in the 4th movie. I cannot think what in book 4 would equate to this observation, does anyone have any ideas? ta jo From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri May 28 08:12:56 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 08:12:56 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99632 (snip my original post) > Carolyn: > > Yes, what was Wormtail up to whilst all this was going on. The only > one small enough to satisfactorily fit down the tunnel. I think it is > very possible that he slipped down there and removed the protection > for the reasons you suggest, and perhaps this was always his role - > the others had specifically taught him how to do this, because they > were all too big to get down the tunnel in their transformed states. > Some questions, however: > > This still assumes a large werewolf could get out of that tiny, > cramped tunnel, once the protection was removed. Ginger: Susan Snow and potioncat asked the same, but with interesting variations. I tried to do that cut and paste thing, but I am a Muggle, so I'm afraid I don't have their posts here, but I'll address this to all of you: Do you think it is possible that the tunnel that we see in PoA is smaller than it was in the days when it was used for werewolf containment? It sounds to me (and this is only my impression, so I could well be wrong) that they didn't have to crawl, or bend double the whole way. Is it possible that there was a partial cave-in since that time? Carolyn: > Is little Wormtail strong/brave enough as a rat to lead a raving > werewolf out through the tunnel alone? Ginger: I don't think he would have to lead him- it would have been more a matter of getting the heck out of the way! ;) Carolyn: > If James knew the nature of the protection, and saw it had been > removed, why did he not quickly reinstate it? Ginger: Very good question: perhaps he did, and that's how he saved Snape. Carolyn: > Why was the protection, if it existed, so easy to break? One might > expect something a bit better of Dumbledore..perhaps Poppy Pomfrey > isn't too good at this sort of spell. Ginger: I doubt either of them would have thought about keeping others from releasing him. I think the protection was meant just to keep him from releasing himself. Carolyn: > If Snape has known the truth of all this for years, why is he still > insisting they tried to kill him? It makes his obsession even more > childish. Unless this is a deep-laid distraction, agreed between him > and Dumbledore to cover up his spying activities. Have to say, his > rage at the end of POA sounded pretty convincing ! Ginger: I'd place my bet that Sirius was the instigater, and that Peter just "buffed it up" a bit by removing the barrier. I doubt the others would have told on him, or that he'd have been caught. Snape may have no idea about Peter's part of the plot, nor may DD, for that matter. And you're sure right about that rage-it's convincing! Ginger, not saying her idea is true, just that it would be nice know all the details, and it's fun to speculate until then. From mita612 at hotmail.com Fri May 28 07:16:05 2004 From: mita612 at hotmail.com (mita612) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 07:16:05 -0000 Subject: someone switches houses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99633 The internet site http://www.theorderofthephoenix.net/book-6.htm has collected some rumors about the 6th book. They are sort of quoting J.K. Rowling from an BBC interview (I tried to find a transcript of it but couldn't- does anyone know it?) saying that someone is going to switch houses. If this were true who could that be?? Hermione switching to Ravenclaw, Neville switching to Hufflepuff or even Harry switching to Slythering after all?? This little piece of information is by far the most interesting one I have read about the 6th book. I just cn't tell whether J.K. Rowling has indeed said it or not... From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri May 28 10:09:57 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:09:57 -0000 Subject: Why did Voldemort wait a year after Harry and Neville were born? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99634 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mariofett1187" wrote: > First of all, why did Voldemort wait a year? He knew the baby would > be born on July 31st that year, and he must have been rather eager to > kill the one that threatened him, so why didn't he attack the > Potter's right away? > > Two related questions: > > 1) Why did he attack Harry and not Neville? Geoff: Can I refer you to message 99047, where this came up and also at the end of that message I wrote - "Geoff: May I direct your attention to the following messages, which formed part of a thread entitled "Marking as an Equal" and which covered this question of the time delay.... 82446, 82534, 82575, 82583 and 82607" I seem to be acting as a Customer Information Desk!! Hope it helps. From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Fri May 28 10:12:06 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:12:06 -0000 Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mariofett1187" wrote: > Dumbledore explains to Harry at the end of OoTP the magic protecting > him at Privet Drive-but why did Petunia accept the baby on her > doorstep, when she and Vernon wanted nothign to do with Lily's > family? > AmanitaMuscaria now - I've presumed Dumbledore used some 'persuasion' on Aunt Petunia - possibly also on Vernon? I suspect that's where the missing day went - taken up in convincing the Dursleys to take Harry. That's not to say they would remember anything about it, only some sense that they _had_ to take Harry ... I suspect obliviate might have removed the memory of the convincing, but left the compulsion? I presume just doing an imperio on them wouldn't have worked - I get the sense there's more to the 'ancient magic' than what could be forced. I also believe that's why Sirius Black had to die - we've got 2 books left, with more deadly attacks coming. Dumbledore states that while Harry could still call Privet Drive home, he'd enjoy the protection Lily's blood gave him. Harry was about to call Sirius Black's house home. I reckon it's a setup job; not ESE!Dumbledore, but scheming, pragmatic DD. > On a related note, is Harry vulnerable to attack by Voldemort when he > wanders around Little Whinging? Dumbledore said that he is protected > only when he is in the Dursley's house. > > "mariofett" AmanitaMuscaria again - I presume, again, that Harry is vulnerable. The Dementors (if they were Dementors), though not sent by Voldemort, as far as we know, didn't attack the house. But why else have a watch on Harry when he steps outside the house? Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri May 28 10:15:43 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:15:43 -0000 Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99636 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: AmanitaMuscaria again - I presume, again, that Harry is vulnerable. > The Dementors (if they were Dementors), though not sent by Voldemort, > as far as we know, didn't attack the house. But why else have a watch > on Harry when he steps outside the house? > Cheers. Geoff: I nearly posted this myself. However, I wonder if there is a difference between the "Petunia link", which protects Harry from Voldemort and other folk from the Wizarding World? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri May 28 10:25:36 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:25:36 -0000 Subject: Deatheater Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99637 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > > > The scrawny boy on a bucking broomstick? It's Sevvy's memory, but > > the boy isn't Snape; it's James, the Quidditch star, hexed by Snape. > > Good joke, no? > > If so, this would give us a taste of the history of animosity between > > James and Sevvy *before* the Grey Underpants episode. Without > > this we only have Sirius's word that there was a history, and Sirius > > is not exactly unbiased where Snape is concerned. > > Ally: > Interesting interpretation. A good possibility. But are these kids > old enough to be at Hogwarts or do we assume this is an even younger > James and Snape who knew each other before Hogwarts? If it's Snape > hexing James in front of Lily while James is trying to show off, that > would make sense as a precursor to lots of animosity. James > certainly wouldn't have liked to be embarassed like that in front of > someone he was trying to impress. > Kneasy: It'd be at Hogwarts, I think. There's no hint that Snape and James knew each other before that. Indeed, the way Sirius describes Sevvy as arriving at Hogwarts already conversant with Dark Magic implies that he was a new comet in their firmament. Besides, I like the symmetry: Snape hexes James' broomstick but saves Harry from the same hex. > > > > The crying child? Son-of-Snape. The adults are Sevvy and possibly > > Florence, the proud parents of this lachrymose tot. > > It's the only sliver of Snape's past I can see that might give a clue > > to motivation. A family. And since they don't seem to be around > > anymore..... > > Ally: > > Problem: surely Harry would have recognized the adult as Snape, no? > The text has him see a dark haired man with a hooked nose. If it was > Snape yelling at his wife, why wouldn't Harry have immediately > recognized him and the text reflected it? I think it was probably > Snape in the corner there as a child and either a father or > grandfather in the foreground yelling at the mother. Kneasy: Ah. You're not as suspicious as I am. There's an interesting difference between the three memories and the "Worst Memory" that caught my eye. Harry has no difficulty in identifying a teenage Snape in the latter, but in the group of three *nobody* is identified. Why not? Could it be that JKR is allowing (encouraging) us to jump to the wrong conclusions? This crying child memory has been used to allow Snape some level of well, excuse, if you like, for his later behaviour. Abused child, bound to turn out nasty and probably into an abuser himself - logical no? Maybe, it's possible. But I don't like to ascribe stone cold certainty to the ineluctable progression of abused => abuser that some seem to make. Because it can happen doesn't mean it must happen. What sort of message would that give to an abused child? You'll be the same? Uncomfortable thought. Anyway, I think Sevvy is just plain nasty and the treatment he hands out to Harry and Neville may have originated with his own child. Some people don't need an excuse to enjoy what they do. > > Ally: > Well, but Harry is viewing DD's pensieve memory as if he were looking > at a mirror - he only sees the surface of it. FOr Snape's, he > plunges his head into the pensieve and actually immerses himself in > the memory. That would be my explanation for the difference. > Kneasy: I don't think so. "Harry was thrown forwards and pitched headfirst into the substance inside the basin -" Ally: > My theory for why this is Snape's worst memory is that this was the > event that turned him to the Slytherins who became DEs. > > Maybe Snape was pretty much a loner but either Bella and her gang > intervened and he was pulled into their group thereafter or he turned > to them for assistance or, maybe he retaliated in such a "dark" way > in response, that they became impressed and sought him out. > > We didn't see that entire memory, after all. Snape pulled Harry out > before he could finish watching it. Who knows what happened after > that - I think its what happened after he was hung upside down that > makes it his worst memory. > > Either that, or really did love Lily, and ruined any chance he ever > had with her by calling her a mudblood. ; p > Kneasy: IIRC Sirius says that he was "one of a group of Slytherins" so I presume that he did have friends that were sympatico. No, we don't see the whole memory, though if there was any follow-up action that showed Snape in a better light or James and Sirius having to retreat, he probably wouldn't mind Harry seeing it. And you really think that 10 minutes of teenage embarassment would turn Snape into an anti-mudblood, Muggle torturing DE? When the ones that did it to him were purebloods? Can't make the connection, myself. Lily, now. Well, I'm not a fan of LOLLIPOPS, just the opposite in fact. I came up with my AGGIE theory a while back (77800) which offers the possibility that his reaction to Lily was a result of her pestering him. Calling her names in public was the best way to discourage her. So she married James on the re-bound. Fair plucks the heartstrings. Kneasy From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 28 11:10:18 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 11:10:18 -0000 Subject: Shared core? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99638 Mooseming wrote: > I have a cannon question but its from a quote to do with the 4th movie > so hope this doesn't qualify as movie contamination! If so, apologies > in advance. > > On Ceefax this morning Daniel Radcliffe (sp?) said he thought Harry > would die as he and Voldemort share the same core which you see in the > 4th movie. > > I cannot think what in book 4 would equate to this observation, does > anyone have any ideas? > ta x Potioncat: I think if Daniel R was a little older he could join our group. The cores are feathers from the same phoenix (from CoS). I saw the quote, should be available from any of the non-book sites. He also said this was his guess, that JKR hadn't told him anything about the ending. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 28 11:33:13 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 11:33:13 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99639 > Marianne: > > No, it wouldn't. The tunnel to the Shrieking Shack extends from the > Shack to the Whomping Willow. It doesn't go into the castle. So, > whether or not Dumbledore knew or suspected that Sirius knew about > that tunnel, it wouldn't necessarily mean that Sirius knew of other > tunnels that actually did lead into the castle. > Potioncat: Boy, it's hard to keep things together when you aren't very visual! I always thought the tree was inside the castle walls. But as it is described in CoS, it isn't. Does anyone know if Jo herself ever published a drawing of the castle? The only castle I've ever been to is the one in North Carolina...(good laugh by one and all.) But I've been picturing something similar to the model my daughter made in 6th grade. Potioncat who apologizes to the staff of Biltmore House. From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Fri May 28 11:35:08 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 6:35:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Deatheater Snape Message-ID: <20040528113508.WDXS29216.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99640 Kneasy: Besides, I like the symmetry: Snape hexes James' broomstick but saves Harry from the same hex. Silverthorne: Isn't it just? Kneasy: > > The crying child? Son-of-Snape. The adults are Sevvy and possibly > > Florence, the proud parents of this lachrymose tot. Silverthorne: Interesting idea...however...if Snape turned to DD the first time V was around, then according to canon, he was, at best in his mid-twenties (Rowling acknowledges that Snape is in his mid thirties when the series starts in some interview or another). And the boy-turned--teenager is at least ten, I suspect, in the memories (Well, nevermind the boy--the kid shooting flies I think is a teenager?). Point is, for that to be Sev's child, he would have had to have fathered one while he was still at Hogwarts for the little cherub to grow up enough for those memories to be the ones that affected Severus's defection. The idea is good, but I suspect your timing is off. Kneasy: > > It's the only sliver of Snape's past I can see that might give a clue > > to motivation. A family. And since they don't seem to be around > > anymore..... Silverthorne: Um. just to point something out. If your family was the source of most of your pain when you were a child, would you honestly maintain contact with them once you were an adult if it wasn't necassary? Just asking--I know in my case the answer is 'no'. I have a mother and a grandmother that live somewhere on the east coast (well, the Grandmother may be dead by now, I'm not sure though). Between the pair of them and all their nasty little games, I was a wreck by the time I got out from under them. I don't know where they are now, and I don't really care. Point is, they made my life a living hell as a child, and I really do not want to go back to that. So I don't. Hence, as far as most people around me know, I have no mother's side of the family...they may as well be 'dead'. > Kneasy: This crying child memory has been used to allow Snape some level of well, excuse, if you like, for his later behaviour. Silverthorne: Not, not excuse, at least not from me. Simple logic, proven out time and again in RL. Kneasy: Abused child, bound to turn out nasty and probably into an abuser himself - logical no? Maybe, it's possible. But I don't like to ascribe stone cold certainty to the ineluctable progression of abused => abuser that some seem to make. Because it can happen doesn't mean it must happen. What sort of message would that give to an abused child? You'll be the same? Uncomfortable thought. Silverthorne: As a abuse survivor myself, I can tell you with certainty that not all abused children go bad themselves. I can also tell you that it's a hell of an upward climb *not* to turn out the same way, even if you have the sweetest nature in the world (which I used to have until one too many things turned me a bit snapish myself...^^;). As for 'telling' any abuse victim what you said just--Rowling doesn't. In fact, she almost negates the idea with Harry--who, even after he has gone through in his life, still acts very much a normal teenage boy with no abusive (although definitely confrontational) tendencies. I think an abuse victim, quite frankly, would more likely get that idea from reading the posts on this board...lol! Kneasy: Anyway, I think Sevvy is just plain nasty and the treatment he hands out to Harry and Neville may have originated with his own child. Some people don't need an excuse to enjoy what they do. Silverthorne: Perhaps not, but then I doubt the guy would try as hard as he did to protect Harry then. After all, the way you paint him, all he would really have to do is *truly* neglect a moment when he should have gone to DD or stopped something from happening to Harry. In fact, with no reason to give a s***, I expect that by now, that's exactly what he would have managed to do, 'loyal' to DD or not. Subconcious hate has a lot of control over people's judegement. But I don't buy for a moment that Severus had a child or a wife---I doubt he got that far out of his own teenage morass before everything went to hell in a hand basket. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri May 28 11:42:14 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 11:42:14 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99641 A bit more exposed to Lupin's character in the upcoming movie than in the book. They may have let the cat out of the bag a bit early. Go to this site, scroll down to trailer that says "I recognized you immediately" http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=trailer&id=1808404334&intl=us Snow-aka Kathy King From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 28 11:43:39 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 11:43:39 -0000 Subject: Deatheater Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99642 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > > Ally: xsnip > > Didn't Sirius describe him as a wierd little loner who was into the > > dark arts? Not sure if he used the phrase "loner," but I got the > > impression he didn't have many friends from Sirius' description. > > > Marianne: > > No, the word "loner" never comes up from Sirius. He merely said that > Snape arrived at Hogwarts knowing more curses than half the kids in > seventh year. And that he hung out with a bunch of Slytherins who > all became DEs. This implies to me that Snape was not a friendless, > complete loner, as many want to believe after seeing the "Worse > Memory" scene. On the other hand, Sirius may not be the best source > of unbiased info on Snape. > Potioncat: I think Sirius used the word "oddball." It's my own theory that Sirius and Severus either knew each other before Hogwarts or had a very bad meeting on the train before Sirius met James. Not casting guilt in either direction at this point. (But of course, taking aim.) Some take the fact that no one came to Snape's defense in the pensieve scene as canon that he was a loner. Or that his friends were from an older crowd who weren't around at that moment. It might mean as well, that no one was going to challenge Potter who of course was known to hex people for the fun of it. Or it could be that the next thing we would have seen was Snape's friends coming in. Potioncat From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri May 28 11:57:44 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 11:57:44 -0000 Subject: Does JKR sees ambition as a flaw? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: I read on the other list I belong to the speculation that > JKR considers the ambition to be a greatest flaw in person. > > Could someone give me any ideas why. I alsor ead somewhere, maybe > even on this lists that for many Brits ambition is not considered to > be a virtue. Is it true? > Based just on the HP books, I think it DOES look as if JKR disapprove of ambition, except in certain cases. I know Harry is supposed to be ambitious, but I can't say I've seen much evidence of it. An ambitious person tends to have long-term plans, and Harry has few, if any. Oh yes, he now has this idea of being an auror, but that seems a bit half-hearted to me. He isn't burning with passion for the idea - it was suggested to him by (fake) Moody in GoF, and he just latched onto it, almost for lack of anything else. The one place where ambition is approved of is in Quidditch - it's clearly admirable for Harry to want to win. The one time he backs off from playing his best in order not to beat Cho, it's seen as a weakness, and it isn't repeated. I can't speak for prevailing attitudes in Britain, but this does seem to ring true; if people resent those who try to succeed, at the same time, they're very serious about success in sports. Wanda From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri May 28 12:09:42 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 12:09:42 -0000 Subject: Does Harry Hate LV? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99644 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > Here's a ridiculous question, and my cursory searches through the > archives of YahooMort have turned up nothing, so I post this for > discussion. Is there any place in cannon where it says that Harry > hates LV? Or wants to revenge himself on LV? Or even fears LV? I > just reread all the books and it struck me as odd that there were no > refernces, that I noticed anyway, to Harry hating or wanting > vengence on LV. There is this passage from Chap. 31 of GoF, after Harry has viewed the Pensieve trials and learned the fate of Neville's parents: As Harry pulled on his pajamas, he looked over at Neville's bed. True to his word to Dumbledore, he had not told Ron and Hermione about Neville s parents. As Harry took off his glasses and climbed into his four-poster, he imagined how it must feel to have parents still living but unable to recognize you. He often got sympathy from strangers for being an orphan, but as he listened to Neville's snores, he thought that Neville deserved it more than he did. Lying in the darkness, Harry felt a rush of anger and hate toward the people who had tortured Mr. and Mrs. Longbottom. ... He remembered the jeers of the crowd as Crouch's son and his companions had been dragged from the court by the dementors. ... He understood how they had felt. . . . Then he remembered the milk-white face of the screaming boy and realized with a jolt that he had died a year later. . . .It was Voldemort, Harry thought, staring up at the canopy of his bed in the darkness, it all came back to Voldemort. ... He was the one who had torn these families apart, who had ruined all these lives. . . . It doesn't directly say that "Harry hates Voldemort" - but Harry feels hate toward those who tortured the Longbottoms, and then realizes that the ultimate culpability lies with Voldemort. - CMC From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri May 28 13:33:41 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 13:33:41 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99645 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > (snip my original post) > > Carolyn: > > Yes, what was Wormtail up to whilst all this was going on. > > > Is little Wormtail strong/brave enough as a rat to lead a raving > > werewolf out through the tunnel alone? > > If James knew the nature of the protection, and saw it had been > > removed, why did he not quickly reinstate it? > > Why was the protection, if it existed, so easy to break? > > Ginger: I doubt either of them would have thought about keeping > others from releasing him. I think the protection was meant just to keep him from releasing himself. > Carolyn: Ah, I have just realised the protection was not at the Shrieking Shack end of the tunnel - as Jo Ann points out up thread, it took the form of the Whomping Willow, I forgot that. But Peter would still have been necessary to press the knot on the tree to allow James & Snape to back out safely. James must have taken him with him on the rescue mission. Odd that his presence has not been mentioned by anyone. Snape could be excused from seeing him because he's terrified, and a rat is small, and he doesn't know about the animagi. If he did want to kill James & Snape, he seems to have bottled out on this occasion - or perhaps Sirius was there, keeping an eye on him. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 28 13:57:02 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 13:57:02 -0000 Subject: Does Harry Hate LV? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > Here's a ridiculous question, and my cursory searches through the archives of YahooMort have turned up nothing, so I post this for discussion. Is there any place in cannon where it says that Harry hates LV? Or wants to revenge himself on LV? Or even fears LV? > Anyway, submitted for your approval or stoning... > Meri - who wonders if JKR has in fact created an overly moral hero I think Voldemort is too random, vast and impersonal to be hated. It would be like hating a tornado or wanting revenge on an earthquake. What Harry really hates is unfairness, and Voldemort is not unfair, he's merely random. He treats his followers just as badly as his enemies. Harry fears dishonor and humiliation far more than death, but there's no dishonor or shame in being defeated by Voldemort --or at least that's what Harry thought before he lost Sirius. Remember this from Book One? "Hagrid, he'd have found out somehow, this is Voldemort we're talking about, he'd have found out even if you hadn't told him." Harry needs to cut himself a little slack, IMO. Thinking about this made me understand why, after five years of fighting Voldemort, Harry suddenly thinks that to kill his enemy will be murder. It will be, if he wants to kill Voldemort for the same reason that Voldemort wants to kill him. Pippin From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri May 28 14:18:40 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 14:18:40 -0000 Subject: Deatheater Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > > Ally: > > Problem: surely Harry would have recognized the adult as Snape, no? > > The text has him see a dark haired man with a hooked nose. If it was > > Snape yelling at his wife, why wouldn't Harry have immediately > > recognized him and the text reflected it? I think it was probably > > Snape in the corner there as a child and either a father or > > grandfather in the foreground yelling at the mother. > > Kneasy: > Ah. You're not as suspicious as I am. There's an interesting difference > between the three memories and the "Worst Memory" that caught my > eye. > > Harry has no difficulty in identifying a teenage Snape in the latter, but > in the group of three *nobody* is identified. Why not? Could it be that > JKR is allowing (encouraging) us to jump to the wrong conclusions? JKR is ALWAYS allowing/encouraging us to jump to wrong conclusions. That having been said I have to disagree with you on the identity of "the crying child". Severus himself simply did not have the TIME to conjure up a family. A wife MAYBE--although I seriously doubt it given the picture we have of him as late as 6th year and his presumed history immediately following his leaving Hogwarts. He certainly did *not* have time to produce a CHILD. A baby, maybe, perhaps even a Toddler, but even HARRY was only 15-18 mos old at the time of VD's downfall and we're told that Snape switched sides well before that. If the destruction of his family was his reason for changing, there had to be some Time-turner hanky-panky going on to accomplish it. Mel, who really hates to have to disagree with Kneasy From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 28 14:32:56 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 14:32:56 -0000 Subject: Does JKR sees ambition as a flaw? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99648 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > In light of recent discussion about Slytherin house, I'd like to know > the answer to this question. > > > Now, I think we've established that JKR does not like Slyhterin house much. Frankly, me neither. For the obvious reason that she did not present any decent characters from this House.(Snape is a special case, because I've been thinking for a long time that he may turn out to be a Gryffindor). > > Again, I really dislike, even hate the pureblood bigotry, which is the heart of the Slytherin beliefs, at least as perceived by many. I also cannot make myself to like abstract, non-fleshed out characters, even if some of them saluted Cedric and Harry. > I think it's important to keep in mind that this anxiety to see the Slytherins as fleshed out and not stereotypical is planted in us by the novels themselves, and is one of the things that creates dramatic tension in them. JKR has created cognitive dissonance -- she's asking us to believe two contradictory things at the same time--and the desire to see it resolved impels us to turn pages, stand in lines , scour websites for clues and spend hours every day exchanging posts with the similarly obsessed . Naturally it's in her interest to keep that going. I don't think we can conclude that JKR hates all the things that make Slytherins disagreeable. If you prowl through the fan fiction, you'll see that one mistake inexperienced writers make is to give all the characteristics they admire to the likable characters, and all the ones they hate to their antagonists. That makes the characterizations one-dimensional. It's much more interesting if you take something you view as a positive, give it to the bad guys and let them do something really loathsome with it. I think in the Potterverse evil is a choice, not a condition. Ambition is not evil--choosing to pursue ambition at the expense of the rights and freedoms of others is evil. Pippin From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri May 28 15:38:04 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 15:38:04 -0000 Subject: Deatheater Snape In-Reply-To: <20040528113508.WDXS29216.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Silverthorne wrote: > Um. just to point something out. If your family was the source of most of your pain when you were a child, would you honestly maintain contact with them once you were an adult if it wasn't necassary? > Just to clarify - the family I'm talking about is his wife and child, not his parents. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri May 28 15:47:53 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 15:47:53 -0000 Subject: Deatheater Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > > > > JKR is ALWAYS allowing/encouraging us to jump to wrong conclusions. > That having been said I have to disagree with you on the identity > of "the crying child". Severus himself simply did not have the TIME > to conjure up a family. A wife MAYBE--although I seriously doubt it > given the picture we have of him as late as 6th year and his > presumed history immediately following his leaving Hogwarts. He > certainly did *not* have time to produce a CHILD. A baby, maybe, > perhaps even a Toddler, but even HARRY was only 15-18 mos old at the > time of VD's downfall and we're told that Snape switched sides well > before that. If the destruction of his family was his reason for > changing, there had to be some Time-turner hanky-panky going on to > accomplish it. > > Actually, I was thinking about another sort of hanky-panky. Exactly what were Snape and Florence up to behind the greenhouses, hmm? So far as I've been able to see, nobody has yet come up with firm time-lines for leaving school, marriages, births of children, etc. for the James, Lily generation. The estimates I've read vary by up to five years. No one knows how early J&L got married, no-one knows how soon Harry appeared on the scene, and so on. It's all guesswork. And while any slippage remains, I'll stick to my theory. Kneasy From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri May 28 16:07:17 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 16:07:17 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99651 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > A bit more exposed to Lupin's character in the upcoming movie than in > the book. They may have let the cat out of the bag a bit early. Go to > this site, scroll down to trailer that says "I recognized you > immediately" > >From Mugglenet today: Clues to Books 6 and 7 in PoA! In a recent interview with USA Today, JK Rowling has stated that several new clues to books 6 and 7 are contained in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban: "I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I thought, people are going to look back on the film and think that those were put in deliberately as clues," Rowling says in an interview released by Warner Bros., which is distributing the movie. Cuaron, for his part, says "in a way, it was intuition, but everything is so emotionally eloquent, the book gives you all the hints." :: Entropy :: who's hoping that the inclusion of JKR's input will sorta make this count as canon. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri May 28 16:32:20 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 16:32:20 -0000 Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99652 > wrote: > > Dumbledore explains to Harry at the end of OoTP the magic > protecting > > him at Privet Drive-but why did Petunia accept the baby on her > > doorstep, when she and Vernon wanted nothign to do with Lily's > > family? > AmanitaMuscaria now - I've presumed Dumbledore used some 'persuasion' > on Aunt Petunia - possibly also on Vernon? I suspect that's where the > missing day went - taken up in convincing the Dursleys to take Harry. > That's not to say they would remember anything about it, only some > sense that they _had_ to take Harry ... I suspect obliviate might > have removed the memory of the convincing, but left the compulsion? I > presume just doing an imperio on them wouldn't have worked - I get > the sense there's more to the 'ancient magic' than what could be > forced. Jen: We know Petunia accepted Harry "grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly" so she seemed fully aware of the contract she entered into and did it anyway. It makes you wonder, what did she/they get in return? Vernon isn't going to do something for nothing! And remember how surprised/furious they were to see the letters from Hogwarts? They never expected to have contact with the magical community again. I don't know how it all fits together though, without Dumbledore either lying or performing magic on Muggles. I hope neither was the case and the Dursleys requested something Dumbledore agreed to with a very heavy heart, but agreed to nonetheless because so many lives were at stake. From LadySawall at aol.com Fri May 28 17:07:11 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 13:07:11 EDT Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20Mommy=20can=E2=80=99t=20protect=20you=20forever?= Message-ID: <8.4e44afeb.2de8cbbf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99653 In a message dated 05/28/2004 9:42:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Annemehr writes: So, to get back to the locked door: if it hides Love, it is not anyone's love in particular, Harry's or Lily's or anyone else's, but must be some manifestation or symbol of Love in general. --- Either that, or there's a lot of other junior Ministry members like Percy running around with all the love sucked out of them. :p Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadySawall at aol.com Fri May 28 17:24:50 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 13:24:50 EDT Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? Message-ID: <194.293f9fed.2de8cfe2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99654 In a message dated 05/28/2004 9:42:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mariofett writes: Dumbledore explains to Harry at the end of OoTP the magic protecting him at Privet Drive-but why did Petunia accept the baby on her doorstep, when she and Vernon wanted nothign to do with Lily's family? --- Jo Ann: Well, DD had something to do with it ("Remember my last,") but it's hard to say what exactly. Still, I'd say, at least in part, they did it because it was the Proper Thing To Do. Undoubtedly by the time Petunia found Harry on the doorstep, some of the neighbors had seen the bundle, and some would have heard her scream, and there would be Questions. Whatever the Dursleys thought of the Potters, they would look uncharitable if they refused to take Harry in, and heaven forbid anyone should think *that.* Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Fri May 28 17:34:52 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 17:34:52 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Doxies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99655 Whoa...it's been a long time since I've posted a filk, eh? Doxies A filk by Gail B. to the tune of Roxie from the soundtrack of the movie, Chicago. Oh, I am so glad I found a Midi. It's pretty good, too, except for this one little bit which you'll probably notice when you sing my lyrics (which are correct): http://www.hamienet.com/midi2712.html Dedicated to Caius...I may filk some more songs from this musical, babe...but I have no intention of doing the whole thing. Molly: These things are all over the place We're teeming with Doxies We need to remove every trace Of these nasty Doxies Some may mistake them for a fairy But then You would do well to take care You have to recognize their wings Their arms, their legs, their teeth, their hair Behind the curtains of this room There's a nest of Doxies So while we're cleaning up the dirt Beware of this dangerous sprite They have a vicious little bite Doxies, Doxies hurt! (spoken) Kids...? Weasley Children, Harry, Hermione: We're gonna squirt this Doxicide To stun all these Molly: Doxies I'll shoo them out from where They hide Then `Good bye' to Weasley Children, Harry, Hermione: Doxies Molly: When they emerge All of them will surge forward So be ready to aim and spray Weasley Children, Harry, Hermione: Here they come Flying from The curtain Fred and George: We'll save us some Molly: You will throw those things away! Their bite is quite poisonous So look out for ? what? Weasley Children, Harry, Hermione: Doxies Molly: Everyone here please stay alert In Lockhart's Guide to Household Pests The author on page nine attests Doxies, Doxies hurt! Weasley Children, Harry, Hermione: Doxies Doxies Doxies... -Gail B. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 28 17:43:54 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 17:43:54 -0000 Subject: Deatheater Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99656 "melclaros" wrote:> > > > JKR is ALWAYS allowing/encouraging us to jump to wrong conclusions. > > That having been said I have to disagree with you on the identity > > of "the crying child". Severus himself simply did not have the TIME > > to conjure up a family. A wife MAYBE--although I seriously doubt it > > given the picture we have of him as late as 6th year and his > > presumed history immediately following his leaving Hogwarts. He > > certainly did *not* have time to produce a CHILD. A baby, maybe, > > perhaps even a Toddler, but even HARRY was only 15-18 mos old at the > > time of VD's downfall and we're told that Snape switched sides well > > before that. If the destruction of his family was his reason for > > changing, there had to be some Time-turner hanky-panky going on to > > accomplish it. > > > > >Kneasy wrote: > Actually, I was thinking about another sort of hanky-panky. > Exactly what were Snape and Florence up to behind the greenhouses, hmm? > > So far as I've been able to see, nobody has yet come up with firm > time-lines for leaving school, marriages, births of children, etc. for the James, Lily generation. Potioncat: Not to be too frank here, but it wouldn't take Severus long to produce a child. Had he been the mother, some of the time frame would be in question. He's off doing DE stuff while Florence is home throwing up. He's working on long life potion while Florence is potty training. We're told Snape "rejoined" our side before LV's downfall...that could be years months weeks...you get the picture. So the child could have been a toddler (a toddler is a small child) and wouldn't have had to be much older than Potter. We don't know when the memory happened. As far as the memory of Snape in 6th year (wasn't it 5th?) James changes a lot after that, Snape may have as well. And it isn't until 7th that James starts to date Lily. I'm not convinced that the memory is Snape and Florence or even of adult Snape and family. (I keep thinking of a younger Rickman in a BBC production of Romeo and Juliet from a very long time ago...My kids saw it and immediately said "It's Snape!") So it is hard to think Harry wouldn't have recognised him. But I also wouldn't put it past Jo. I do think Snape will be one of the teachers who was/is married. Potioncat From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Fri May 28 17:55:10 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 12:55:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Deatheater Snape Message-ID: <20040528175510.FBWR24784.out014.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99657 Just to clarify - the family I'm talking about is his wife and child, not his parents. Kneasy Silverthorne I know, Kneasy, but since my comment was part of a bigger one implying that I think the child is Snape and the arguing folks his parents, my comment is still in context of the rest of my argument. Just to clarify the argument myself. ^^ I don't think Snape, especially with as prone as he is to hold onto hurt, would keep in contact with his abusive parents once he could be free of them. Why stick around for more abuse? I wouldn't, and I don't think he would either (in fact, he probably called it quits with mom and dad as soon as he legally could--by comparison, it took me until I was 22 and the ultimate betrayal (in my eyes) during a certain situation by my mother to finally cause me to not care about 'making it right' and keeping in contact with her anymore, even though my dad's side of the family kept trying to get me to do it. Silverthorne/Anne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 28 18:07:18 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 18:07:18 -0000 Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mariofett1187" wrote: > Dumbledore explains to Harry at the end of OoTP the magic protecting him at Privet Drive-but why did Petunia accept the baby on her doorstep, when she and Vernon wanted nothign to do with Lily's family? < Well, um, it isn't usually your sister's kid that gets left on the doorstep, is it. Worse, they've been keeping it secret that Petunia has a sister, so it's *really* going to look bad if they drop the baby off at an orphanage--nobody's going to believe their story. If the kid was Petunia's nephew, why wouldn't she take him in? Everybody in the neighborhood would be whispering about Vernon's illegitimate son. Pippin From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Fri May 28 18:15:44 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 13:15:44 -0500 Subject: HPforGrownups] Simple Snape math Message-ID: <20040528181545.EXSF15848.out010.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99659 I'm sure that people will find LOTS of wiggle rooom in this, but I thought I would lay it down. In the first book, Harry is 11, Snape is approx. mid-30's according to interviews given by JKR. Granted, her math tends to be off, she even admits it, but here's the few facts I deduced from just that: Harry 11, Snape 35 Harry Born, Snape 25...fast forward to LV's death, Snape 26, maybe 27. It seems most WW children get their first wands upon acceptance to Hogwarts (or the equivilent)--at the age of 11. Using that as a guideline (and the appearent skill of the fly-zapping boy), Even at the most generous math, Snape's son, at 11--11 when Dad was 27, would have been *conceived* sometime during Snape's 15th year of life (incidentally, the same year as OWLs and when most of us assume the "prank' happened). Even if the son was given a wand earlier in life, the basic math would not change--Snape would have still been a very young father. Although realistically possible....somehow, I don't see JKR having an underaged father as one of her plots--even a DE one. I could be wrong, but hey... Silverthorne/Anne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 28 18:36:30 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 18:36:30 -0000 Subject: HPforGrownups] Simple Snape math In-Reply-To: <20040528181545.EXSF15848.out010.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99660 wrote: > snip > It seems most WW children get their first wands upon acceptance to Hogwarts (or the equivilent)--at the age of 11. Using that as a guideline (and the appearent skill of the fly-zapping boy), Even at the most generous math, Snape's son, at 11--11 when Dad was 27, would have been *conceived* sometime during Snape's 15th year of life (incidentally, the same year as OWLs and when most of us assume the "prank' happened).x> Silverthorne/Anne > > Potioncat: Can't speak for Kneasy. But I thought the fly zapping boy was our Snape. The question is, in the other memory is the yelling man our Snape or is the crying child our Snape? My mind is open. (which sounds better than to say I'm on the fence) I think it's more likely he is the crying child, but I think it could go the other way as well. I also want to say, that it is an intense moment and one that Snape remembers strongly. But it alone, does not mean there was abuse. Potioncat who thinks of the fly zapping teen when trying to catch that darn fly on Jo's site! From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri May 28 18:39:53 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 19:39:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Deatheater Snape References: <1085715923.3913.28764.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002701c444e3$2b292c00$264c6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 99661 Ally wrote: > Maybe Snape was pretty much a loner but either Bella and her gang > intervened and he was pulled into their group thereafter or he turned > to them for assistance or, maybe he retaliated in such a "dark" way > in response, that they became impressed and sought him out. I'm not sure whether it's canon, but I formed the impression that the young Snape was hanging around with a group of rather older Slytherins who in turn we get the impression were of the aristocratic sort. Someone else posted (I forget whom) quite a long post arguing that Snape socially was not from an aristocratic background. Taken together these things would support the thought that the Slytherin gang valued Snape's abilities at hexing and the like, though they didn't regard him exactly as a member of their inner circle. "Snape, we've got a little firsty here. Come and show us that fill-your-pants jinx again." But JKR alone knows all Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 28 19:02:26 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 19:02:26 -0000 Subject: someone switches houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99662 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mita612" wrote: > Mita: > > The internet site http://www.theorderofthephoenix.net/book-6.htm has > collected some rumors about the 6th book. They are sort of quoting > J.K. Rowling from an BBC interview (...) saying that someone is > going to switch houses. If this were true who could that be?? > Hermione switching to Ravenclaw, Neville switching to Hufflepuff or > even Harry switching to Slythering after all?? This little piece of > information is by far the most interesting one I have read about the > 6th book. I just can't tell whether J.K. Rowling has indeed said it > or not... bboy_mn: I've always thought it was more likely to be a Slytherin switching to Gryffindor. That opens up a great story line in which Harry and Ron suspect the new boy (most likely) of being a spy, but over the course of the school year, the new boy proves himself in someway. I can't see any of the trio switching houses. What could possibly motivate them to do that? But I could see a good Slytherin, one who doesn't support Draco or Voldemort, needing to get out of Slytherin to avoid persecution. Everyone seems pretty friendly with and within the other houses, so I can't imagine why one of them would want to change. But if the Houses begin to unite agianst Voldemort, there is plenty of room for conflict in Slytherin house. There was a short discussion recently on that subject. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/93350 bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri May 28 19:31:08 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 19:31:08 -0000 Subject: HPforGrownups] Simple Snape math In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99663 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Can't speak for Kneasy. But I thought the fly zapping boy was our > Snape. The question is, in the other memory is the yelling man our > Snape or is the crying child our Snape? My mind is open. (which > sounds better than to say I'm on the fence) I think it's more likely > he is the crying child, but I think it could go the other way as > well. > Kneasy: Yep. In effect I'm saying that all the memories are post Snape's entering Hogwarts - two from his teenage years, one as an adult. Those that claim the child is Snape himself shift the time bracket back; still two teenage memories, and one much earlier. And no, I can't find any alternative at present to the idea that the fly-zapper is Snape as adolescent. Pity. I really must try harder. I still wonder what other memories Snape put into the Pensieve. The fact that he himself entered the memory to bring Harry out indicates that he was very interested in what Harry was seeing. Those other memories could tell us a lot (wishful thinking). It also makes it unlikely that the whole thing was a set-up and that Harry was intended to access the Pensieve. Potioncat: > I also want to say, that it is an intense moment and one that Snape > remembers strongly. But it alone, does not mean there was abuse. > > Kneasy: I tend to agree. One brief glimpse is all we get. There's not much information as to what is going on. But posters make up their own minds, what conclusions they reach are their own affair. I reserve the right to disagree. I don't want Snape to have any excuses for his behaviour, no matter how fascinating a character I find him. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 28 19:52:25 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 19:52:25 -0000 Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mariofett1187" wrote: > Dumbledore explains to Harry at the end of OoTP the magic protecting > him at Privet Drive-but why did Petunia accept the baby on her > doorstep, when she and Vernon wanted nothign to do with Lily's > family? > > On a related note, is Harry vulnerable to attack by Voldemort when he > wanders around Little Whinging? Dumbledore said that he is protected > only when he is in the Dursley's house. > > "mariofett" bboy_mn: As others have pointed out, I think 'what the neighbors would think' had a lot to do with it. Not to mention how difficult it would be to explain why the baby was there one day then gone the next. But more importantly, I think it was a small degree of human compassion; alright, a very very small degree. It's one thing to say you don't want anything to do with that Potter family, but quite another to send a baby boy away to certain death. Logically, Dumbeldore would have explained the Blood Protection Spell to Petunia. She would have know that as long as Harry lived with her, he would be protected, and that the Dursley's, by association, would also be protected. Presented with this need to protect Harry's life, not just his comfort and general well-being, it would have been pretty cold hearted to send Harry away. If it we just a matter of comfort or discomfort, convinience or inconvinience, the Dursley's would have certainly sent him away, but would they be equally willing knowing that their decision would mean Harry's certain death? Quite a moral dilemma for the Dursley's. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 28 20:16:55 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 20:16:55 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99665 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > Marianne: > > > > No, it wouldn't. The tunnel to the Shrieking Shack extends from > > the Shack to the Whomping Willow. It doesn't go into the castle. > > So, whether or not Dumbledore knew or suspected that Sirius knew > > about that tunnel, it wouldn't necessarily mean that Sirius knew > > of other tunnels that actually did lead into the castle. > > > > > Potioncat: > Boy, it's hard to keep things together when you aren't very visual! > I always thought the tree was inside the castle walls. > grade. ...edited... > > Potioncat bboy_mn: 'Castle walls'; seems like a pretty clear-cut term, but not so. There are the 'castle walls' that are not part of the castle itself, but are the walls that surround the grounds like a large garden fence. They define the parimeter of the grounds, not the castle. These are what prevent unwanted people and creatures from entering the castle grounds. Then, based on common castle design, every castle has a courtyard; a large open area like a big protected garden that is surrounded by a combination of the castle itself and barrier walls. This would be the area/courtyard where students wait outside when they have long breaks between classes Then there is the castle building structure itself which contain 'castle walls' that hold up the ceilings. I think the Whomping Willow is on the grounds of Hogwarts, and thereby, within the boundaries of the walls that surround the grounds. I doubt that it is within the boundaries of the protected courtyard because that would put a very dangerous tree in a very confinded space with a lot of impulsive students. And logically, it is not inside the walls of the castle building structure. It's far to dangerous and large to be an indoor plant. Not to mention that it would have been unlikely for Ron to fly the car into the castle and hit the tree. The Whomping Willow seems to be in an open area of the grounds near the forest, partway between the castle and Hagrid's Hut. For what it's worth. bboy_mn From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Fri May 28 21:05:53 2004 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 17:05:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HPforGrownups] Simple Snape math Message-ID: <15b.3660d74d.2de903b1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99666 I think your math is wrong, when GOF came out or right before I think JKR placed Snape at 35 or 37???, he's the same age as Lily and James, so he can't be 35 when Harry's 11, if he was 35 in GOF that makes him 21 years older than Harry. Danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 28 21:16:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 21:16:40 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99667 > > bboy_mn: > > 'Castle walls'; seems like a pretty clear-cut term, but not so. > > There are the 'castle walls' that are not part of the castle itself, > but are the walls that surround the grounds like a large garden fence. > They define the parimeter of the grounds, not the castle. These are > what prevent unwanted people and creatures from entering the castle > grounds. > >Potioncat: Yes, this is the area I was thinking of. But my thought was that once Black was in this area, he could get into the castle (keep?) itself. However, it sounds like it is outside these walls entirely. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 28 21:19:18 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 21:19:18 -0000 Subject: HPforGrownups] Simple Snape math In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99668 > Kneasy: > Yep. In effect I'm saying that all the memories are post Snape's > entering Hogwarts - two from his teenage years, one as an adult.Those that claim the child is Snape himself shift the time bracket back; still two teenage memories, and one much earlier. > > And no, I can't find any alternative at present to the idea that the > fly-zapper is Snape as adolescent. Pity. I really must try harder. > > I still wonder what other memories Snape put into the Pensieve. > The fact that he himself entered the memory to bring Harry out > indicates that he was very interested in what Harry was seeing. > Those other memories could tell us a lot (wishful thinking). It also makes it unlikely that the whole thing was a set-up and that Harry was intended to access the Pensieve. > Pippin: I'm not following you here. If it was a set-up, the whole idea was for it not to look like a set-up. So why would Snape going in after Harry to see which memory he had accessed make a set-up unlikely? When Harry accessed the Pensieve in Dumbledore's office, he saw the memories in chronological order. If Snape went into the Pensieve, he'd know which memories Harry had seen. Speaking of which, except for the dragon, all the memories Harry relives during Occlumency seem to be in chronological order. It could be the dragon is something Harry has forgotten. In that case Snape's memories should be in order too, and the crying boy cannot be Snape's son if the other two memories are Snape. Pippin From garybec at yahoo.com Fri May 28 15:48:27 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 15:48:27 -0000 Subject: Shared core? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99669 > Mooseming wrote: On Ceefax this morning Daniel Radcliffe said he thought Harry would die as he and Voldemort share the same core which you see in the 4th movie. I cannot think what in book 4 would equate to this observation, does anyone have any ideas? Becki's thoughts; He is refering to the re-birthing scene in the graveyard when they, (Harry and LV) are dueling. Because the wands are brothers, (the core being from the same phoenix tail feather, Fawlks), (BTW, only the cores are the same, Harry, Holly/11inches, LV Yew/13 1/2 inches, SS).) they malfunction, causing the "Priori Incantatem" spell to take effect, (see GoF p.696 Am Vers.) I think he believes that because the wands will malfunction when used in conjuction with each other that it will be an 'all or nothing' for the two of them. Meaning that they both with have to die if LV is to be vanquished. I don't agree. It is my perception that the wands will only malfunction if they are used in that fashion, eg: the graveyard duel. Why would Harry have to duel to vanquish the Dark Lord? Couldn't there be other means in which to get rid of him? Taking him off guard for instance? Or beating him to the Expellaramius! I myself see Harry giving LV a quick swift kick in the behind into the "Love Room" and see him melting like the Wicked Witch of the West. Becki From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri May 28 16:18:41 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 16:18:41 -0000 Subject: What did making eye contact with Dumbledore have to do with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99670 mariofett1187 wrote: > Dumbledore was not very clear while explaining everything at the end > of the fifth book. Why would Voldemort seeing Dumbledore through > Harry make it more likely that Harry would be possessed? At first > Albus said that the fear was that Voldemort might use Harry to spy on > the order, but afterwards he said that the fear was that Harry would > be in danger. What gives? Ally: I do think DD's explanation was wierd also, which makes me think that the occlumency lessons were a set-up for some purpose other than occlumency necessarily. His explanation, as I recall, was that, if V saw DD giving Harry occlumency lessons, he would realize that DD was more than just a headmaster to Harry, and so V would try to use Harry - which would be harmful to the Order and Harry, really. It does seem a little odd, though. Plus, don't you have the same problem with Snape teaching occlumency? He's in the Order and a spy. Won't there be a problem if V realizes that Snape is trying to teach Harry to protect himself from V? This makes me think that DD was using the lessons for other purposes, and that the potential for V finding out anything about the Order or DD or Snape was acutally pretty slim. Remember, Snape provided the explanation for what can and cannot be achieved through Legilimency and Occlumency. He could have easily left some things out. Maybe DD was using them as an excuse for Snape to get in there and see what things Harry was seeing from V or to attempt to get Harry and Snape closer together or to reveal to Harry his father's true nature I have a hard time believing that the risk to the Order and Harry was less if Snape, as opposed to DD, taught him. Can anyone help me out here? From celticangel at mailblocks.com Fri May 28 18:37:51 2004 From: celticangel at mailblocks.com (celticangel1976) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 18:37:51 -0000 Subject: The Good and Evil of Snape (was: Harry ... act like ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99671 bboy_mn: > > > > > > People have often speculated the Snape will prove his ultimate > > > loyalty to Dumbledore by dying in a heroic effort to save Harry. > > > *coming out of lurkdom* I keep seeing people talking about how Snape is just mean to Harry because of what happened with James, Sirius, etc. and thought I'd point out another possible explanation for Snape's behavior. If this has been said before, then just ignore it. :) First, Snape, as far as the DE's are concerned, is supposed to be on their side. I think it's fair to say that Draco thinks Snape is part of the DE, along with Lucius, and no doubt there are lots of other DE children in Slytherin as well. So if Snape were being nice to Harry at all, word would undoubtedly get back to Voldemort. I think Snape is also trying to toughen Harry up. Most everyone else seems to coddle Harry and he's always getting away with breaking the rules. Even Dumbledore has admitted he's tried to protect Harry too much. I think Snape is just telling it like it is. Not pulling punches so to speak. Snape was in Voldemort's services for a while, he knows what to expect and I think that by being hard on Harry he's hoping to toughen him up for the final battle. Of course, not all of Snape's behaviour can be accounted for by this. Some of it is undoubtedly immature transfering of old hate to James' son. And Snape probably is, by nature, a hard, snappish person. But Snape does nothing without reason, so I think to just say "Oh Snape's just a mean, nasty guy" is totally off base. As for DD vouching for Snape, here's my take on that. I think that as far as LV and the DE's are concerned, Snape is their spy at Hogwarts. They fully expect DD to vouch for him and say he trusts him because that's what Snape would have to make him think if he was going to be able to spy for LV. Of course, the real fact is that Snape is DD's spy. So for DD to vouch for Snape at the trial, that was all in LV's plan and wouldn't cause suspision. Anyway, just my thoughts. Snape is by far my favorite character in the series and I can't wait to find out more about him. CelticAngel From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Fri May 28 20:12:04 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 20:12:04 -0000 Subject: HPforGrownups] Simple Snape math In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: I don't want Snape to have any excuses for his > behaviour, no matter how fascinating a character I find him. Ava: I think "excuses for his behaviour" may be the wrong way of looking at it. JKR focuses on choices - if your past is X, you can choose to be Y, or you can choose to be Z. Or in Snape's case, Y and Z. That doesn't prevent an abusive childhood from serving as a partial explanation for certain behavior. Just as flies aren't produced from thin air, neither are personality traits. If Snape had an unhappy childhood, if he was abused, that may be an explanation for certain things, not an excuse. It also makes his positive qualities (loyalty to DD, willingness to risk his own hide, his attempt to open Fudge's eyes, etc.) all the more fascinating. Now if he is the abusive parent, that would certainly explain JKR's description of him as a "deeply horrible person". And again, his positive qualities would be a fascinating counterbalance to the nature he exhibited in the Pensieve and the classroom. (What can I say? He's a fascinating guy.) Now, there's a thought - Snape in the classroom, who never has to shout, who bullies by insinuation, sly comment and insult. Is this the same man as the putative Severus Snape, screaming at his (presumed) wife? The disparity seems too strong to ignore. From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri May 28 20:11:39 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 20:11:39 -0000 Subject: Deatheater Snape/Maybe humiliation was the worst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99673 Ally: > > Problem: surely Harry would have recognized the adult as Snape, no? > > The text has him see a dark haired man with a hooked nose. If it was > > Snape yelling at his wife, why wouldn't Harry have immediately > > recognized him and the text reflected it? I think it was probably > > Snape in the corner there as a child and either a father or > > grandfather in the foreground yelling at the mother. > > Kneasy: > Ah. You're not as suspicious as I am. There's an interesting difference > between the three memories and the "Worst Memory" that caught my > eye. > > Harry has no difficulty in identifying a teenage Snape in the latter, but > in the group of three *nobody* is identified. Why not? Could it be that > JKR is allowing (encouraging) us to jump to the wrong conclusions? > Ally: Well, I agree JKR encourages false assumptions, but this would be a downright dirty trick. It would be one thing if she wrote it so Harry only saw the man from he back or otherwise had an obscured view of him, but Harry at least sees him from straight on enough to know that his nose is hooked. In SS, when they see Snape mumbling and think he's uttering a curse, they - and therefore we the reader - can't tell its not a curse b/c of their distance from him (and maybe their lack of experience in magic). She tricks us in a way that makes sense literally within the story, so its not a cheap trick. But for Harry not to ID Snape if he clearly saw him - that would not be a mistake of perspective by the character. That would a cheap trick, so I HOPE that's not the case. As for why being hung upside down being Snape's worst memory, I was thinking and have decided: why not? Many of us want to assign romantic flaws to Snape, but maybe being humiliated in front of his peers really is the worst memory Snape has. He craves fame and the first thing he goes after with Harry is his celebrity. If he wants to be well-known and regarded more than anything, doesn't it make sense that being humiliated might be the worst thing that could happen to him. So what if his worst memory is not being a DE or killing someone or anything like that? Who said Snape was that deep? JKR maintains that he's a nasty person, regardless of being complicated. If being humiliated really was Snape's worst memory, despite all the other things he's done, that would make him fairly shallow and emotionally retarded, but maybe that's what he is. He could still be shallow and nasty and know right from wrong or love someone or that he didn't change to the Order's side. It just means he's got serious issues, and wouldn't it also fit in with everything Snape has done so far externally and everything JKR has said about him? Ally Who is seeing the theory someone posted about Snape sacrificing himself - solely for the glory involved - as a lot more possible after reflecting this afternoon. From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Fri May 28 21:29:47 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 16:29:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HPforGrownups] Simple Snape math References: <15b.3660d74d.2de903b1@aol.com> Message-ID: <000401c444fa$e6def260$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99674 I think your math is wrong, when GOF came out or right before I think JKR placed Snape at 35 or 37???, he's the same age as Lily and James, so he can't be 35 when Harry's 11, if he was 35 in GOF that makes him 21 years older than I could be...I was under the impression though that although she made that statement when GOF was out that she said he was around 35 at the beginning of the *series*....of course, if he's 35 in GOF (Four years later), then he's 31-32 in the first book (PP/SP)--which makes a child of ages 7-11 (wand waving age) *before* Harry was born even more unlikely, since Kneasy is pinpointing this theoretical child as being the *reason* for Snape's defection (which was before James and Lily were killed by Voldemort.), So even if my math *is* wrong--you've actaully argued even more against Kneasy's theory.... Silverthorne From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Fri May 28 21:37:35 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 16:37:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HPforGrownups] Simple Snape math--addenuem References: <15b.3660d74d.2de903b1@aol.com> <000401c444fa$e6def260$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <000f01c444fb$fde5ea80$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99675 I think your math is wrong, when GOF came out or right before I think JKR placed Snape at 35 or 37???, he's the same age as Lily and James, so he can't be 35 when Harry's 11, if he was 35 in GOF that makes him 21 years older than I could be...I was under the impression though that although she made that statement when GOF was out that she said he was around 35 at the beginning of the *series*....of course, if he's 35 in GOF (Four years later), then he's 31-32 in the first book (PP/SP)--which makes a child of ages 7-11 (wand waving age) *before* Harry was born even more unlikely, since Kneasy is pinpointing this theoretical child as being the *reason* for Snape's defection (which was before James and Lily were killed by Voldemort.), So even if my math *is* wrong--you've actaully argued even more against Kneasy's theory.... Silverthorne Also, I *can* see a couple having a child at 21--that does indeed happen all the time--the hospital I work in prides itself in specializing in childcare, births, etc--and there are a *lot* of new moms that age, about half the census is made up of moms around that age group in fact usually--so that I'm not arguing with at all. But, like you said, since that would have made James and Lily 21 or so when Harry was born-- And *IF* we believe Kneasy's theory that Snape had a child who was at least 7-8 (so he could wave that wand successfully to kill flies with), and was much more likely 11 around that time that the DE killed--that would have made Snape, what? 10 when he fathered that child? Somehow, I find that *very* unlikely. ^^ Silverthorne. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 28 21:43:06 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 21:43:06 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99676 Here is a tidbit from an interview at BBC's Newround. Alfonso Cuaron relates a conversation he had with JKRowling. --- Quoted in Part - See link below--- I give you an example: There's a scene where Malfoy wants to see Buckbeak being executed. ... ... I said 'Let's put a graveyard there'. She says: 'No, you can't have a graveyard there'. And I'm like, 'Why?' She says: 'Oh because the graveyard is near this other wing of the castle and it's going to play an important part in number six because such and such and such.' --- End Quote --- I'm stumped! I can't see how or why a graveyard would be at Hogwarts, and can't see how to work it into the plot, and I'm usually pretty good at doing that. The only thing that comes to me is that maybe Harry's parents are buried there. Or maybe, the location is only incidental; something will happen in the graveyard that is not directly related to the graveyard itself. Also, I think we need to consider that Cuaron was probably paraphrasing and perhaps generalizing a bit. So, I'm not sure we can trust what he said as an absolute statement of fact... more like a broad somewhat generalized fact. Full interview- http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_3758000/3758101.stm Anyone care to speculate? bboy_mn From kcawte at ntlworld.com Fri May 28 21:59:31 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:59:31 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What about the Door? References: Message-ID: <001c01c444ff$0e3d1590$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 99677 > > > >Potioncat: > Yes, this is the area I was thinking of. But my thought was that > once Black was in this area, he could get into the castle (keep?) > itself. However, it sounds like it is outside these walls entirely. > K That doesn't follow. Just because someone is in my garden doesn't mean they can easily break into my house - and my house doesn't have magical protections, huge solid doors and thick stone walls ..... I would imagine it's quite easy to get into the castle grounds - after all if it isn't why bother with the magical illusions that make it look like a ruin to discourage muggles - if the grounds were impenetrable (or at least very difficult to get into) then muggles wouldn't be able to get close enough to see anything odd and the wizards could just put the story around that it's an exclusive public school (which it is - possibly, unless it's the muggle equivalent of a state school - which isn't a discussion I want to wander into right now) K From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 28 22:02:37 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:02:37 -0000 Subject: DD, Snape, & Occumency (was: ...making eye contact...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > Ally: > > ...edited... > > Plus, don't you have the same problem with Snape teaching > occlumency? He's in the Order and a spy. Won't there be a problem > if V realizes that Snape is trying to teach Harry to protect himself > from V? > > ...edited... > > I have a hard time believing that the risk to the Order and Harry > was less if Snape, as opposed to DD, taught him. Can anyone help me > out here? > > Ally bboy_mn: Amazingly, I never looked at the Occlumency lessons from this perspective before. I can buy Dumbledore's explanation for not teaching the lessons himself, and can see that if Snape is an excellent Occlumens, how he would be a good candidate as teacher. BUT, and that is a very big but, I have to wonder if either Dumbledore or Harry realize what a compromising, delicate, and dangerous situation Snape has been placed in. I always thought Snape did such a poor job of teaching Harry Occlumency because he was a generally nasty person, and hated Harry. But, on one hand, he had to do as Dumbledore said, though, on the other hand, he very much needed to maintain his assumed position as a spy for Voldemort. So, in true Death Eater fashion, he did enough to say he had done the job, but did it in a way that showed clear distain for Dumbledore and Harry. At the moment, I'm slightly stunned at suddenly being force to see what a horribly awkward and difficult position Snape was in. bboy_mn From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri May 28 22:18:37 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:18:37 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts/&Celtic origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Here is a tidbit from an interview at BBC's Newround. Alfonso Cuaron > relates a conversation he had with JKRowling. > > --- Quoted in Part - See link below--- > I give you an example: There's a scene where Malfoy wants to see > Buckbeak being executed. ... ... I said 'Let's put a graveyard there'. > > She says: 'No, you can't have a graveyard there'. And I'm like, 'Why?' > She says: 'Oh because the graveyard is near this other wing of the > castle and it's going to play an important part in number six because such and such and such.' > > --- End Quote --- (snip) > Full interview- > http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_3758000/3758101.stm Carolyn: And a second interesting tidbit in the article - Hogwarts is located on a Celtic site. Here is another link to possible locations of Celtic sites in Britain, and problems of dating the Arthurian legend. Generally, however, it would be consistent with Hogwart's apparent founding date of around 900-1000 AD. Are we about to find out about the dragon that must not be tickled at long last? http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/arthur.html From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri May 28 22:19:53 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:19:53 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99680 bboy_mn wrote: I give you an example: There's a scene where Malfoy wants to see Buckbeak being executed. ... ... I said 'Let's put a graveyard there'. She says: 'No, you can't have a graveyard there'. And I'm like, 'Why?' She says: 'Oh because the graveyard is near this other wing of the castle and it's going to play an important part in number six because such and such and such.' vmonte responds: My guess would be that Harry's parents are buried there, but that their headstones have different dates for the day they died. I think James was probably killed a few days before GH, and that the male voice (Harry hears during the dementor scene) yelling for Lily to run with Harry is not his father. vmonte From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 28 22:27:09 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:27:09 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? - Castle Walls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > 'Castle walls'; seems like a pretty clear-cut term, but not so. > > > > There are the 'castle walls' that are not part of the castle > > itself, but are the walls that surround the grounds like a large > > garden fence. > > Potioncat: > Yes, this is the area I was thinking of. But my thought was that > once Black was in this area, he could get into the castle (keep?) > itself. However, it sounds like it is outside these walls entirely. bboy_mn: But Black did get into the castle, and by logical extension, onto the grounds. In fact, he did it three times, once to watch Harry play Quidditch, once to slash the Fat Lady, and once to /apparently/ try to kill Ron. So, yes, in his Dog form, he is able to get onto the grounds and into the castle. When you say, 'it sounds like it is outside', am I safe in assuming 'it' is the Whomping Willow? The Whomping Willow, to the best of my analysis, is on the grounds, inside the perimeter walls, between the castle structure and Hagrid's hut. Remember, that to get past the entrance gates to Hogwarts grounds, you have to walk past the Dementors. When they exit the Whomping Willow there is no indication that they pass the gates or the Dementors. There is no indication that Harry must pass the Dementor when he walks to and from Care of Magical Creatures class. Given all that I have to conclude that the Whomping Willow is within the perimeter walls of Hogwarts grounds but outside the protected courtyard of the castle. As a side note: I don't think it's possible to get into the Shrieking Shake by any means other than the tunnel. The Shack itself is sealed to prevent people from entering by the doors and windows, and to prevent Lupin from getting out in wolf form. My logical extension says that it is also seal from entrance by Apparation or Floo Powder, to prevent curious people from entering while Lupin is transformed. Just my view. bboy_mn From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 28 22:33:42 2004 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:33:42 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99682 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: >> My guess would be that Harry's parents are buried there, but that > their headstones have different dates for the day they died. I think > James was probably killed a few days before GH, and that the male > voice (Harry hears during the dementor scene) yelling for Lily to run > with Harry is not his father. *blinks in confusion* where did this idea come from? I mean I have read this theory before, but the only basis in canon that there is is tenuous at best (as I see it). I guess what I mean is why do you buy into it as much as you do? Well, I do know theories like this are fun to play with *shrugs* But more to the point-why would this be an important development or important fact for books 6 and 7? It seems to me that this information, both there existing a graveyard and his parents possibly being buried in it (whether or not they died the same day), would only be important as another fact that Harry might be interested in knowing but has not been told. Would it have any other significance to the plot? kateydidnt From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Fri May 28 22:46:22 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:46:22 -0000 Subject: Why did Petunia Dursley accept Harry at the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99683 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > As others have pointed out, I think 'what the neighbors would think' > had a lot to do with it. Not to mention how difficult it would be to > explain why the baby was there one day then gone the next. AmanitaMuscaria now: Harry was left on the Dursleys' doorstep wrapped up - unless he started squalling, I doubt anyone except Petunia initially knew it was a baby that had been left - '...he would be woken in a few hours' time by Mrs Dursley's scream as she opened the front door to put out the milk bottles ... '. My guess is that Petunia would have grabbed the bundle and shut the door quick, then looked to see what it was. The neighbours wouldn't have got a look in unless they were really dedicated curtain-twitchers. > > But more importantly, I think it was a small degree of human > compassion; alright, a very very small degree. It's one thing to say > you don't want anything to do with that Potter family, but quite > another to send a baby boy away to certain death. > AmanitaMuscaria again : '... my dratted sister being what she was ... and then, if you please, she went and got herself blown up and we got landed with you!' Doesn't sound like a lot of compassion there, does it? She's talking about her sister and nephew when she's under stress; I can't see that her response would have been any different if DD turned up on the doorstep to explain they should give Harry houseroom. I reckon Dumbledore used threats and bribery in large measure to get Harry in the door. > Logically, Dumbeldore would have explained the Blood Protection Spell > to Petunia. She would have know that as long as Harry lived with her, > he would be protected, and that the Dursley's, by association, would > also be protected. Presented with this need to protect Harry's life, > not just his comfort and general well-being, it would have been pretty > cold hearted to send Harry away. > > If it we just a matter of comfort or discomfort, convinience or > inconvinience, the Dursley's would have certainly sent him away, but > would they be equally willing knowing that their decision would mean > Harry's certain death? Quite a moral dilemma for the Dursley's. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn AmanitaMuscaria again : Well, Vernon certainly had no thought for Harry's safety after the Dementor episode. And I had the impression Petunia wasn't so much worried about Harry being killed, as responding to some sort of compulsion (no, not the neighbours talking - that was just an excuse to shut Vernon up). She wouldn't look at Harry while she told Vernon he had to stay, and it didn't seem to me, anyways, from that scene, that her concern was for Harry. I wonder if there was something about Vernon or Dudley, that Dumbledore pledged to do, that was the trade- off? Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri May 28 22:47:18 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:47:18 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99684 snow15145 wrote: A bit more exposed to Lupin's character in the upcoming movie than in the book. They may have let the cat out of the bag a bit early. Go to this site, scroll down to trailer that says "I recognized you immediately" vmonte responds: A few months ago I posted that I thought that Lupin had been in love with Lily and that he acted strangely to Harry's comments about the voices he heard at Godric's Hollow (Harry's dementor encounter). Lupin says to Harry: "You heard your father?" I don't think that James was at GH. vmonte From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri May 28 23:44:08 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 23:44:08 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99687 kateydidnt2002 wrote: But more to the point-why would this be an important development or important fact for books 6 and 7? It seems to me that this information, both there existing a graveyard and his parents possibly being buried in it (whether or not they died the same day), would only be important as another fact that Harry might be interested in knowing but has not been told. Would it have any other significance to the plot? vmonte responds: There is no cannon to support this theory. All I have is Lupin's reaction after Harry tells him that he heard his father's voice at GH. PoA, U.S. paperback version, p 240-241: "I heard my dad," Harry mumbled. "That's the first time I've ever heard him -- he tried to take on Voldemort himself, to give my mum time to run for it..." (This is the first time Harry has heard his father's voice--so he automatically assumes the voice is him.) "You heard James?" said Lupin in a strange voice. Harry then asks Lupin if he knew his father at school. "I -- I did, as a matter of fact," said Lupin. "We were friends at Hogwarts..." Lupin then changes the subject back to the patronus charm. The other reason I'm suspicious is that during the filming of SS I read somewhere(?) that JKR asked that James not be shown during the flash back scene that shows Lily being killed at GH. I do not have a link to prove this as fact, but maybe someone else remembers, or knows, where this thought originates from. I think it would be significant to the plot to realize that someone other than James was at GH that night. vmonte From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 28 23:46:02 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 23:46:02 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > bboy_mn wrote: > > I give you an example: ... because the graveyard is near this other > wing of the castle ....' > vmonte responds: > > My guess would be that Harry's parents are buried there, but that > their headstones have different dates for the day they died. I think > James was probably killed a few days before GH, and that the male > voice (Harry hears during the dementor scene) yelling for Lily to > run with Harry is not his father. > > vmonte bboy_mn: Lightening appears to have struck twice in one day. Once again someone has given me a new insight into a old and often discussed subject. While I have considered them, I have generally discounted any theories which speculated on who else may have been at Godric's Hollow on the night Voldemort tried to kill Harry. Of course, many many people have speculated about who was there accompanying Voldemort. Many have speculated as to who was their with James and Lily. But I think very few have ever speculated about who was there INSTEAD of James and why. Perhaps, Lupin was there instead of James, or one or more members of the Order who were standing guard. However, that leaves us to come up with a reason for Jame to not be there, and if he was not there, is he indeed now dead? If not dead, then were has he been all this time? If someone else was there in his place, are they now dead? If they are not, then why hasn't their part been revealed before now? If James was indeed killed a few days before, that could have been a justifiable reason for one or more members of the Order to have been standing guard over Lily. But again, why, and why haven't we heard about it before. If nothing else, we are cursed by Harry's limited perspective. While not without conflict, and generally going against the current flow of the story, this theory could have some merit. I know I haven't added much, but the suggestion did make me think, and I resist this idea much less than I resist the others. bboy_mn From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sat May 29 00:15:48 2004 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 01:15:48 +0100 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate Message-ID: <40B7D634.6080201@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99689 I'm rereading the PoA (to get the last uncontaminated joy :-) ), and I noticed something for the first time: Lupin gives two completely different resignation stories to Hagrid and to Harry. It seems that to Hagrid Lupin presented it as his own noble decision - can't risk it happening again. But talking to Harry, it's all Snape's fault. He even chooses the motive for Snape - as ugly as possible, of course. How does Lupin know that order of Merlin was the last straw for Snape, not the fact that he forgot his potion? It seemed like throughout the school year Snape stopped just short of spoon-feeding this potion to Lupin. As good a foundation for the last straw as anything. How poor Harry can achieve a working relationship with Snape if responsible adults in his life (Lupin, and to the much greater degree, Sirius) act as if it's very important for them to pass their baggage with Snape to Harry? Rhetorical question, I know. Irene From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat May 29 00:29:22 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 00:29:22 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99690 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Here is a tidbit from an interview at BBC's Newround. Alfonso Cuaron > relates a conversation he had with JKRowling. > > --- Quoted in Part - See link below--- > I give you an example: There's a scene where Malfoy wants to see > Buckbeak being executed. ... ... I said 'Let's put a graveyard there'. > > She says: 'No, you can't have a graveyard there'. And I'm like, 'Why?' > She says: 'Oh because the graveyard is near this other wing of the > castle and it's going to play an important part in number six because > such and such and such.' > > --- End Quote --- > > I'm stumped! I can't see how or why a graveyard would be at Hogwarts, > and can't see how to work it into the plot, and I'm usually pretty > good at doing that. > > The only thing that comes to me is that maybe Harry's parents are > buried there. Or maybe, the location is only incidental; something > will happen in the graveyard that is not directly related to the > graveyard itself. > > Also, I think we need to consider that Cuaron was probably > paraphrasing and perhaps generalizing a bit. So, I'm not sure we can > trust what he said as an absolute statement of fact... more like a > broad somewhat generalized fact. Marianne: Well, in response to your supposition (and the comments made by others responding to this), why would it make a difference at this point in the story whether we saw a graveyard or not? If I did see one in the PoA film, what would occur to me is to think that this was simply a bit of visual foreshadowing that we would see a very important graveyard scene in GoF (even though it would be a totally different graveyard.) So, why is the location so crucial? Is its proximity to a particular point in Hogwarts a clue? And, how big is this graveyard? You'd think that if it was of any substantial size, that Harry would have stumbled across it sometime over the past 5 years. So maybe it is very small, and access to it is somehow limited or restricted. That would explain why Harry and Co. have never found or mentioned it. And, should James and Lily be buried there, then I would assume there is something about whatever is on their tombstones that we can't yet know about. If not, if this is a perfectly ordinary graveyard that contains James and Lily, and there is no other importance to it than that, then it would make no sense that DD hadn't bothered to mention this little fact to Harry. Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat May 29 00:45:28 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 00:45:28 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts - It was Regulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Of course, many many people have speculated about who was there > accompanying Voldemort. Many have speculated as to who was their with > James and Lily. But I think very few have ever speculated about who > was there INSTEAD of James and why. > > Perhaps, Lupin was there instead of James, or one or more members of > the Order who were standing guard. However, that leaves us to come up > with a reason for Jame to not be there, and if he was not there, is he > indeed now dead? If not dead, then were has he been all this time? If > someone else was there in his place, are they now dead? If they are > not, then why hasn't their part been revealed before now? > > If James was indeed killed a few days before, that could have been a > justifiable reason for one or more members of the Order to have been > standing guard over Lily. But again, why, and why haven't we heard > about it before. If nothing else, we are cursed by Harry's limited > perspective. Marianne: But Sirius says that when he arrived at Godric's Hollow to check on Lily and James..."I saw their house destroyed, their bodies..." That indicates to me that he saw a man that he recognized as his best friend James. Now, maybe this wasn't James and some elaborate plot will be revealed to show that this was someone else Polyjuiced as James. Or maybe this person was horribly mangled and all Sirius saw was black hair and glasses, and he simply assumed it was James. Wait! I've got it! It was Regulus! He was the one secretly in love with Lily. Not Snape or Lupin. And, Harry's weird little question in OoP where he wonders if Lily was forced to marry James will be revealed as the truth. Harry is not James' son - he's really Regulus' son and Sirius' nephew, which will now be revealed once the issue of the Black inheritance comes into play in Book 6. The timing coincides with Regulus' death "some fifteen years ago." Can't you just see it? Draco and Narcissa sashay into the Wizard Probate Office, fully expecting to be granted whatever is left of the Black estate, and they are stunned to discover that Regulus left an heir behind. Whew...okay, I'm back on earth now. I don't know where that came from. I need a vacation. Marianne From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat May 29 01:13:47 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 01:13:47 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts - It was Regulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99692 Marianne wrote: Wait! I've got it! It was Regulus! He was the one secretly in love with Lily. Not Snape or Lupin. And, Harry's weird little question in OoP where he wonders if Lily was forced to marry James will be revealed as the truth. Harry is not James' son - he's really Regulus' son and Sirius' nephew, which will now be revealed once the issue of the Black inheritance comes into play in Book 6. The timing coincides with Regulus' death "some fifteen years ago." Can't you just see it? Draco and Narcissa sashay into the Wizard Probate Office, fully expecting to be granted whatever is left of the Black estate, and they are stunned to discover that Regulus left an heir behind. Whew...okay, I'm back on earth now. I don't know where that came from. I need a vacation. vmonte responds: Or better yet, the kids will find an open crypt with an empty casket inside. As they turn to leave the crypt, a door closes and traps them in. Panic starts to take over when a blood curdling laugh reveales: BLOOD SUCKING VAMPIRE SNAPE who has lured the kids into the graveyard, and their early death! (I can play sarcastic as well.) vmonte Yes, I am only kidding! From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat May 29 01:15:06 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 01:15:06 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99693 Snow (me) wrote: A bit more exposed to Lupin's character in the upcoming movie than in the book. They may have let the cat out of the bag a bit early. Go to this site, scroll down to trailer that says "I recognized you immediately" >snip< vmonte responds: A few months ago I posted that I thought that Lupin had been in love with Lily and that he acted strangely to Harry's comments about the voices he heard at Godric's Hollow (Harry's dementor encounter). Lupin says to Harry: "You heard your father?" I don't think that James was at GH. Snow again: Could be that's kind of what I was thinking when I saw that clip from the new movie. It puts Lupin in a not so good light though if you look at the first Patronus lesson with him. After Harry's second attempt at the charm, he announced to Lupin that it was getting worse and he could here his mother louder that time and Voldemort. Lupin looked paler than usual. Lupin then tells Harry that if he doesn't want to proceed he would understand. The next attempt, the one you referred to, is followed by Harry's announcement that he heard his father. Lupin's reaction this time is: "You heard James?" said Lupin in a "strange" voice." Again, Lupin asks Harry if perhaps they should leave it for another night. Lupin goes on to say that the charm is too advanced and that maybe he shouldn't have suggested it. Harry's final attempt produced a huge, silver shadow ? when Lupin steps in and roared Riddikulus and ends the session. Why does Lupin appear to be afraid of what Harry hears next? I had a very bad feeling that Lupin was acting strangely here (looking paler ect.) like he was afraid of Harry possibly hearing something he didn't want him to. Also his constant attempts at ending the lessons, and at one point ending them all together. What does Lupin know about that night at Godric's Hollow? Two scenarios' come to mind. The first is the not so good one where Lupin really wasn't to be trusted for whatever James and Sirius' reasons were for not making him secret keeper. Maybe Lupin loved Lily so much and saw an opportunity to get rid of James and Harry but save Lily, hence the move aside you silly girl option was made by Voldemort at Lupin's request. The second is that Lupin's voice is the one Harry actually heard and not James during the Patronus lessons. But then why would Lupin have been at Godric's Hollow? No matter which way I view this, it doesn't look that good for Lupin. Even in the best-case scenario Lupin would have had to at the very least dipped his feet into the bad guy pool or at least got them wet. Maybe you can come up with a way in which Lupin loved Lily but didn't turn out to be the bad guy, given the patronus lessons scene. Snow From linda_gaunt at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 28 08:34:42 2004 From: linda_gaunt at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Linda=20Gaunt?=) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 09:34:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shared core? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040528083442.16215.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99694 mooseming wrote: On Ceefax this morning Daniel Radcliffe (sp?) said he thought Harry would die as he and Voldemort share the same core which you see in the 4th movie. I cannot think what in book 4 would equate to this observation, does anyone have any ideas? Linda Gaunt: I would imagine Dan is thinking back to book one, when he gets his wand. Doesn't Ollivander say the phoenix only gave two feathers - one in LV's and one in Harry's? From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat May 29 01:54:19 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 01:54:19 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99695 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > Snow (me) wrote: The second is that Lupin's voice is the > one Harry actually heard and not James during the Patronus lessons. > But then why would Lupin have been at Godric's Hollow? No matter > which way I view this, it doesn't look that good for Lupin. Even in > the best-case scenario Lupin would have had to at the very least > dipped his feet into the bad guy pool or at least got them wet. > > Maybe you're right about it not being James's voice that Harry was hearing. It would go some way to explaining one thing - why DIDN'T Lily flee? If the idea was for James to hold off Voldemort long enough to give her time to escape (which is what I assumed happened), how come she didn't grab Harry and run? But while she might have listened to James telling her to go, she could have had the opposite impulse if *someone else* were telling her to. Or if someone else were there that she trusted - then it might be a case of "James needs me! You take Harry!" while she ran to help James. And what then? Did the person she trusted actually betray them, and leave Harry to Voldemort's mercies? But it's hard for me to fit Lupin into these lurid scenarios - he just doesn't seem like a Rowling villain. I think it's more likely Peter was there, to see the successful completion of his treachery (and be immediately rewarded by LV), and she might have been screaming when she realized that he had betrayed them all. Wanda From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri May 28 15:55:28 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 15:55:28 -0000 Subject: The Good and Evil of Snape (was: Harry ... act like ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99696 bboy_mn: > > The only scenerio I can come up with that allows Snape to continue as > a spy is if Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore to pretent to join the > good side. That way Voldemort would have a spy in Dumbledore's > organization. Once Snape had worked his way into Dumbedore's > organization he saw the error of his ways and became a true spy for > Dumbledore. > bboy_mn Ally: Another possibility is that Snape is just a very good liar. In the occlumency scene, he goes off on a tangent really, telling Harry that LV is very good at detecting liars, and that the only people that can lie to him are the ones who can control the emotions and thoughts that would contradict the lie. This seemed odd to me, since Harry learning occlumency is not for any purpose remotely related to lying to V's face. Assuming what was said in those proceedings would have come to V's knowledge, Snape could have concocted the lie that he made DD believe he was a spy to save his own skin. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 29 03:30:55 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 03:30:55 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? - Castle Walls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99697 bboy_mn wrote: snip > > When you say, 'it sounds like it is outside', am I safe in assuming > 'it' is the Whomping Willow? The Whomping Willow, to the best of my > analysis, is on the grounds, inside the perimeter walls, between the > castle structure and Hagrid's hut. > > Remember, that to get past the entrance gates to Hogwarts grounds, you > have to walk past the Dementors. When they exit the Whomping Willow > there is no indication that they pass the gates or the Dementors. > There is no indication that Harry must pass the Dementor when he walks > to and from Care of Magical Creatures class. Given all that I have to > conclude that the Whomping Willow is within the perimeter walls of > Hogwarts grounds but outside the protected courtyard of the castle. Potioncat: I think we've finally communicated! Yes, that is my point. The whomping willow is within that area protected by the walls-magic barriers-whatever and if you came in that tunnel, you would not have to pass the dementors. So Black could by-pass the dementors and get onto Hogwarts grounds. bboy_mn: > As a side note: I don't think it's possible to get into the Shrieking > Shake by any means other than the tunnel. The Shack itself is sealed > to prevent people from entering by the doors and windows, and to > prevent Lupin from getting out in wolf form. My logical extension says > that it is also seal from entrance by Apparation or Floo Powder, to > prevent curious people from entering while Lupin is transformed. Potioncat: You may be right. I went back and re-read. To be honest, I'm getting more confused. If, no one can get into or out of the Shrieking Shack except through the tunnel, then DD knowing that Black knew about it is not an issue. And, after re-re-re-reading the chapter in PoA where Lupin and Black tell the trio about it, it sounds as if they did indeed come onto "school grounds" All this time I thought they walked out a door at the shack (not the door in the subject head). Now, going back....it seems to be contradicted. Lupin says something along the line of "If Snape had made it into the shack, he would have faced a full grown werewolf. So it sounds to me, Severus would have found the werewolf in the shack, not in the tunnel. He caught a glimpse of the werewolf at the end of the tunnel. I'm not sure which end of the tunnel that was. And where the werewolf was at at that time. The room,looking into the hole? or near the whomping willow? I am picturing Snape at or near the end of the tunnel and seeing the werewolf at the shack end. Or he could be looking back and seeing the werewolf at the willow end of the tunnel as he and James were leaving. I don't get the impression that the werewolf normally had the run of the tunnel. Nor do I think the willow would have kept it inside. So I think something was supposed to keep Lupin in the shack. Somehow, he either got out or was at least visible to Snape. Would it have been possible for the human kids to get into the "room" at the end of the tunnel, transform and then go into the shack? There is a door at that point. Perhaps the werewolf is never even supposed to be in that entrace room. We've added the possibility that Peter was also involved. Was he? and if so, did Sirius know? Did he un-do some magic or some simple lock to allow the werewolf out? For that matter, did the werewolf get out? Of course, whatever we come up with will be speculation. I will go back to one point. While Snape, Lupin, Black all still think Snape was in danger, I'm wondering if he really was. And while I imagine there were some simple consequences to the prank, I'm assuming if DD had thought there was danger, the consequences would have been greater. Of course, I'm beginning to wonder if DD really knows what's going on! Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 29 03:36:59 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 03:36:59 -0000 Subject: What did making eye contact with Dumbledore have to do with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99698 Ally asked: > > I have a hard time believing that the risk to the Order and Harry was > less if Snape, as opposed to DD, taught him. Can anyone help me out > here? Potioncat: Thank you!!! I've asked this too. It seems to me that this puts Snape at risk twice. If LV should see into Harry's mind that Snape was teaching him, or if LV should see into Snape's head that the lessons were going on. I don't, however, think the pensieve was a set up. (I don't think that was in this post, but it has come up recently.) Potioncat From alina at distantplace.net Sat May 29 05:07:08 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 05:07:08 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99699 I think that maybe the graveyard has something to do with ghosts. Perhaps all the ghosts who inhabit Hogwarts are buried there. We might find out more about ghosts and the rules of their existence. Anyway, it would just make sense to me if that's what the graveyard was there for. From Batchevra at aol.com Sat May 29 05:11:20 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 01:11:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99700 In a message dated 5/28/04 9:04:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com writes: >I'm rereading the PoA (to get the last uncontaminated joy :-) ), and I noticed something for the first time: Lupin gives two completely different resignation stories to Hagrid and to Harry. It seems that to Hagrid Lupin presented it as his own noble decision - can't risk it happening again. But talking to Harry, it's all Snape's fault. He even chooses the motive for Snape - as ugly as possible, of course. How does Lupin know that order of Merlin was the last straw for Snape, not the fact that he forgot his potion? It seemed like throughout the school year Snape stopped just short of spoon-feeding this potion to Lupin. As good a foundation for the last straw as anything. How poor Harry can achieve a working relationship with Snape if responsible adults in his life (Lupin, and to the much greater degree, Sirius) act as if it's very important for them to pass their baggage with Snape to Harry? Rhetorical question, I know. Irene< Actually, Lupin tells the same story, to Hagrid and Harry, Snape told the Slytherins that Lupin is a werewolf and that he could have bitten anyone and that he couldn't risk that. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Sat May 29 05:52:34 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 05:52:34 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99701 > And what then? Did the person she trusted actually betray them, and > leave Harry to Voldemort's mercies? But it's hard for me to fit > Lupin into these lurid scenarios - he just doesn't seem like a > Rowling villain. I think it's more likely Peter was there, to see > the successful completion of his treachery (and be immediately > rewarded by LV), and she might have been screaming when she realized > that he had betrayed them all. > > Wanda I think it would've become obvious to James and Lily that Peter betrayed them the moment they saw Voldemort enter their house. Though, I'd also agree that they might think the was tricked until they saw him with Voldemort. Here's a question though, did Lily and James know that Peter was made Secret Keeper instead of Sirius? Seems to me their knowledge isn't a prerequisit of the Secret spell. Actually, that made me wonder and I don't have my books with me: did we ever hear Peter himself admit to delivering Potters to Voldemort? Or do we still have only Sirius' word to go by? Alina. "Said Hufflepuff, I'll take the lot and treat them all the same." Said the devil's advocate: I hope that doesn't mean equally badly. From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sat May 29 06:12:49 2004 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 06:12:49 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99702 Irene wrote: > >I'm rereading the PoA (to get the last uncontaminated joy :-) ), > and I noticed something for the first time: > Lupin gives two completely different resignation stories to Hagrid and > to Harry. > It seems that to Hagrid Lupin presented it as his own noble decision - > can't risk it happening again. That's reading a lot into one line. We only know one thing that Lupin told Hagrid. He might have said a great deal more, but Hagrid quotes only this bit. > But talking to Harry, it's all Snape's > fault. He even chooses the motive for Snape - as ugly as possible, of > course. How does Lupin know that order of Merlin was the last straw for > Snape, not the fact that he forgot his potion? It seemed like throughout > the school year Snape stopped just short of spoon-feeding this potion > to Lupin. Yeah, that would drive me crazy if I were Lupin. I hate being nagged. I'm also a nag, though. That must be why I relate to both Snape and Lupin in the hovering-around-waiting-for-him-to-take-his- potion scene. >As good a foundation for the last straw as anything. You are right that Lupin can only speculate about Snape's motives. Considering the context, though, he's being pretty damn calm. Snape informed students of something that Dumbledore, as well as Lupin, wanted kept quiet. Whether Lupin would have resigned without this scandal, we can't know; but Snape robbed him of the chance to leave with dignity and for a noble reason. Instead, he forced both Dumbledore and Lupin into Lupin's resigning. If I may do some speculating myself, Snape's obviously been dying to do this all year--he argued against Dumbledore's hiring him in the first place; brought out his I-told-you-so's when Sirius got into the castle; and, when he arrested Lupin, relished being able to prove to AD what a big mistake he'd made (and incidentally, committing an extralegal worse-than-murder along the way). In some ways, as Lupin says, Snape is right; Lupin bears some responsibility for Sirius's getting into the castle. But if Snape can be forgiven for so drastically failing to trust Dumbledore (a rare event, and I do find it forgiveable*), surely Lupin can be forgiven for being just a bit snippy toward Snape the morning he's gotten him sacked from the only decent job he's been able to get, or is likely to get. Amy Z *I don't forgive the threat of siccing the Dementors on him, though. I can only hope that Snape was just trying to scare Lupin with that "perhaps the Dementors will have a kiss for him, too" remark and never really intended to do it. To actually do it would truly have been letting an old hatred drive him to a horrific crime. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "This is the weirdest thing we've ever done," Harry said fervently. From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 29 06:24:44 2004 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 06:24:44 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arealin" wrote: > I think that maybe the graveyard has something to do with ghosts. > Perhaps all the ghosts who inhabit Hogwarts are buried there. We > might find out more about ghosts and the rules of their existence. > Anyway, it would just make sense to me if that's what the graveyard > was there for. Oh, that is an interesting idea. Of course how freaked out would you get if one of your classmates died (Myrtle) and was buried on the grounds of your school and came back to haunt it? *shivers* what if James and/or Lily were buried ther and one of them haunted the graveyard... From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 29 07:00:17 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 03:00:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts Message-ID: <81.d147a12.2de98f01@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99704 In a message dated 05/28/2004 6:45:42 PM Central Daylight Time, vmonte at yahoo.com writes: > I think it would be significant to the plot to realize that someone > other than James was at GH that night. > > vmonte > Or (If the James dying beforehand theory is true) the voice Harry hears could be nothing more than an overlap of James telling Lily to run. example: J & L are in a park, LV shows up James tells Lily to run and she does -- straight to Godric's Hollow and what Harry is hearing during the dementor attack is only a compliation of separate events. However I still think that they were killed within minutes of each other and Lupin's comment was nothing more than surprise/shock that Harry was able to remember that much detail (since he was only 15 months) Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Sat May 29 07:53:06 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 07:53:06 -0000 Subject: there are SHIPs and... sorry but Luna reminds me of wormtail. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99705 > vmonte responds: > I hate to say this because I really like the character of Luna, but I > just reread the book and she reminded me a lot of wormtail. She > really seems like a kiss a** in certain sections of the book. The > train scene where she laughs uncontrollably at Ron reminded me of the > penseive scene where Sirius tells James (not sure who made this > remark) to stop before wormtail wets himself. Actually, I think you might be misinterpretting the way Luna's laughing in that scene. At least here's the way I look at it: Peter's laugh would've been obviously false and played up. Luna's laugh would be quite genuine. I think she really found what Ron said incredibly amusing and was looked at strangely because the rest of the group didn't think it was that funny. In any case, I think it's safe to say that Luna has displayed a very stable disregard for other people's opinions. She seems to know others find her weird (I judge by the end of the book where she talks to Harry about people taking her things), but can't be bothered by it. From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat May 29 07:53:58 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 07:53:58 -0000 Subject: The Good and Evil of Snape (was: Harry ... act like ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99706 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "celticangel1976" wrote: > bboy_mn: > > > > >> > First, Snape, as far as the DE's are concerned, is supposed to be on > their side. I think it's fair to say that Draco thinks Snape is > part of the DE, along with Lucius, and no doubt there are lots of > other DE children in Slytherin as well. So if Snape were being nice > to Harry at all, word would undoubtedly get back to Voldemort. I > think Snape is also trying to toughen Harry up. Most everyone else > seems to coddle Harry and he's always getting away with breaking the > rules. Even Dumbledore has admitted he's tried to protect Harry too > much. I think Snape is just telling it like it is. Not pulling > punches so to speak. Snape was in Voldemort's services for a while, > he knows what to expect and I think that by being hard on Harry he's > hoping to toughen him up for the final battle. Of course, not all > of Snape's behaviour can be accounted for by this. Some of it is > undoubtedly immature transfering of old hate to James' son. And > Snape probably is, by nature, a hard, snappish person. But Snape > does nothing without reason, so I think to just say "Oh Snape's just > a mean, nasty guy" is totally off base. > > As for DD vouching for Snape, here's my take on that. I think that > as far as LV and the DE's are concerned, Snape is their spy at > Hogwarts. They fully expect DD to vouch for him and say he trusts > him because that's what Snape would have to make him think if he was > going to be able to spy for LV. Of course, the real fact is that > Snape is DD's spy. So for DD to vouch for Snape at the trial, that > was all in LV's plan and wouldn't cause suspision. > Sue now: Sorry to leave most of this lengthy post in, but it's an interesting one. I also think that being nice to Harry would make the Malfoys and other DEs suspicious, but that there is definitely resentment from his teen experiences - and don't forget, Harry looks like his father! Imagine having to see that face which had tormented you years ago in your class every day. Don't forget, though, that it isn't just Harry he picks on. He's not very nice to the Gryffindors in general and anyone who is likely to be an easy target, such as Neville, in particular. I suspect the twins do fine in his class. They're tough and given their joke-shop products, probably damned good at Potions. He couldn't pick on them, even if he wanted to. But my personal take on it is that if JKR says he's meant to be a horrible person, he is. He's her character, after all, and we have to respect her vision. However, as a good writer, she couldn't make him two-dimensional, and whatever she intended at the beginning, he has ended up a fascinating, complex character, far more interesting than the "good guys". Probably a case of the character getting away from the writer! :-) Think, say, Shylock in THE MERCHANT OF VENICE - I am pretty sure he was meant to be the villain, but Shakespeare being Shakespeare, couldn't make him two-dimensional, whatever he intended. So, like him or not, he's far more interesting than the characters who win, and more human. From viviane at lestic.com Sat May 29 09:14:04 2004 From: viviane at lestic.com (earendil_fr) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 09:14:04 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99707 Wanda wrote: > Maybe you're right about it not being James's voice that Harry was > hearing. It would go some way to explaining one thing - why DIDN'T > Lily flee? If the idea was for James to hold off Voldemort long > enough to give her time to escape (which is what I assumed > happened), how come she didn't grab Harry and run? But while she > might have listened to James telling her to go, she could have had > the opposite impulse if *someone else* were telling her to. Or if > someone else were there that she trusted - then it might be a case > of "James needs me! You take Harry!" while she ran to help James. > And what then? Did the person she trusted actually betray them, and > leave Harry to Voldemort's mercies? But it's hard for me to fit > Lupin into these lurid scenarios - he just doesn't seem like a > Rowling villain. I think it's more likely Peter was there, to see > the successful completion of his treachery (and be immediately > rewarded by LV), and she might have been screaming when she realized > that he had betrayed them all. > > Wanda Earendil: I totally agree with you. If someone else than James was at GH, it couldn't be Lupin. We know from PoA that Sirius thought Lupin to be the traitor, and adviced James and Lily to choose Peter as their Keeper (which means they both knew who their Keeper was since *they* were the one who *chose* him). It would be logical for Sirius to share his doubts about Lupin with them, since he thought trusting Lupin would endanger his friends' lives. So at the time of GH, James and Lily think Lupin shouldn't be trusted and was (possibly) a traitor. I don't think Lupin would have been welcome at GH back then - not to mention he wasn't supposed to know the location. So if, according to your suggestion Wanda, Lily trusted Harry to someone else and then she went back to help James, it couldn't be Lupin. It couldn't be Peter either: after facing LV I doubt she would have put much faith in their Secret Keeper... OTOH, I don't think Lily trusted Harry to anyone. First, having just discovered they were betrayed and being under LV's attack, I think she wouldn't trust *anyone* at that point (with the possible exception of DD). Second, she died protecting Harry, so she had to be the one with Harry. As for Lily not fleeing... Maybe someone blocked the way out while James fought LV... Earendil. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 29 09:46:11 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 09:46:11 -0000 Subject: HPforGrownups] Simple Snape math--addenuem In-Reply-To: <000f01c444fb$fde5ea80$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99708 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" wrote: > > And *IF* we believe Kneasy's theory that Snape had a child who was at least > 7-8 (so he could wave that wand successfully to kill flies with), and was > much more likely 11 around that time that the DE killed--that would have > made Snape, what? 10 when he fathered that child? > You seem to persist in mis-reading my posts. Twice I have pointed out that the fly-zapper is almost certainly Snape himself and not his child. I don't mind folk arguing about timelines and possibilities but I get irritated when my posts are perverted to argue against a point that wasn't there in the first place. Kneasy From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sat May 29 10:04:43 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 10:04:43 -0000 Subject: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > > > > It is very hard to believe that DD didn't know the marauders could > > transfigure. Does anyone know where it is that DD speaks about > it. Was he misleading us again? And certainly, he knew after the > prank that the boys knew about the tunnel and the way to disarm the > tree. > > Carolyn: > Probably. What he says (POA, p.312, UK edition) is: > 'Sirius told me all about how they became Animagi last night', said Dumbledore, smiling. 'An extraordinary achievement - not least, > keeping it quiet from me. And then I remembered the most unusual form your Patronus took, when it charged Mr Malfoy down at your Quidditch match against Ravenclaw. So you did see your father last night, Harry..you found him inside yourself.' > > This doesn't say when he found out for the first time, only that he heard Sirius confess to their activities the previous night. It also only comments on his admiration for the Marauder's working out how to become Animagi without him knowing, not that he wasn't subsequently aware of a werewolf accompanied by two huge animals roving the grounds. And he more or less admits that he was >previously aware of the unusual form that James' patronus took. Why *James'* Patronus? Am I not getting something? Dumbledore heard from Sirius about the Marauders' animagi stunts, including the various animals to which they turned. He then made the connection to the form that Harry's Patronus took: James' animagus form is stag, Harry's Patronus form is stag. How does James' Patronus come in? > > Since Lupin was always accompanied by the other Marauders at all > other times, and two of them in particular were extremely clever, and a by-word for trouble, it would not have been difficult for > Dumbledore to work out what was going on once it was reported to him. Perhaps he thought Lupin deserved to run about in the fresh >air, provided he was supervised - a very Hagrid POV! If DD thought that Lupin desereved to be outside, in the fresh air, while in wolf form, he could have arranged for it in ways that would be safer than relying on three teenage animagi to restrain a dangerous werewolf. Lupin felt guilty for what he had done then, with the extenuating circumstance of a very young age. For DD to have collaborated in such irresponsible and extremely dangerous conduct would be inexcusable. > The alternative is assume SillyOldBuffer!Dumbledore - which I am > greatly tempted to do at times. > Certainly better than wicked!DD. However, I see him simply as NotOmniscient!DD. Also, PlotEnabling!DD. Naama, arguing this on and off at least since 2002 From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat May 29 10:28:43 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 06:28:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin Loved Lily Message-ID: <8c.c20ad10.2de9bfdb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99710 In a message dated 5/29/2004 1:53:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, alina at distantplace.net writes: Here's a question though, did Lily and James know that Peter was made Secret Keeper instead of Sirius? Seems to me their knowledge isn't a prerequisit of the Secret spell. =============== Sherrie here: Lily might not have known, but James certainly did - it was he who, with Sirius, made the decision to switch to Pettigrew. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat May 29 10:42:27 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 10:42:27 -0000 Subject: there are SHIPs and... sorry but Luna reminds me of wormtail. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99711 arealin wrote: Actually, I think you might be misinterpretting the way Luna's laughing in that scene. At least here's the way I look at it: Peter's laugh would've been obviously false and played up. Luna's laugh would be quite genuine. I think she really found what Ron said incredibly amusing and was looked at strangely because the rest of the group didn't think it was that funny. In any case, I think it's safe to say that Luna has displayed a very stable disregard for other people's opinions. She seems to know others find her weird (I judge by the end of the book where she talks to Harry about people taking her things), but can't be bothered by it. vmonte responds: You're right! Jim Ferer also pointed out the same things to me, and I agree with both of you. I'm starting to read too much into everything. Besides, I really do like Luna. vmonte :) From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sat May 29 10:45:09 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 5:45:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Simple Snape math--addenuem Message-ID: <20040529104509.LHQK24784.out014.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 99712 You seem to persist in mis-reading my posts. Twice I have pointed out that the fly-zapper is almost certainly Snape himself and not his child. I don't mind folk arguing about timelines and possibilities but I get irritated when my posts are perverted to argue against a point that wasn't there in the first place. Silverthorne: My apologies for misreading your post and confusing the fly zapper for 'Snape's son'--I will admit to perhaps reading a bit too quickly, and since the main thrust if your arguement was *about* Snape's supposed son and his wife, I probably combined both examples mentioned in your post to both mean the son and not one as Snape--I am at work and reading in between truck shipments and calls for supplies usually, so I could very well get the various sentences a little twisted. It would not be the first time. However, the still applies to the shouting match memory, where you *do* say the young boy is Snape's son and the parents are Snape himself and the wife (whether or not one chooses to believe it was a scene of abuse or not is another kettle of fish, and not the point I was trying to get to--as IIRC that was where you and potioncat went off on your own tangent and at which point I was no longer really paying attention). So, the math is still off. Sorry for 'misreading' you, Kneasy. But after all is said and done, I am only human (and an easily distracted one at that sometimes...*g*). Hopefully, you are also human enough to forgive the mistake. *Winks* Silverthorne/Anne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From c_robocker at yahoo.com Sat May 29 03:06:02 2004 From: c_robocker at yahoo.com (c_robocker) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 03:06:02 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Here is a tidbit from an interview at BBC's Newround. Alfonso > Cuaron > relates a conversation he had with JKRowling. > > --- Quoted in Part - See link below--- > I give you an example: There's a scene where Malfoy wants to see > Buckbeak being executed. ... ... I said 'Let's put a graveyard > there'. > > She says: 'No, you can't have a graveyard there'. And I'm > like, 'Why?' > She says: 'Oh because the graveyard is near this other wing of the > castle and it's going to play an important part in number six > because > such and such and such.' > > --- End Quote --- > CRobo: This is different than the first version I read. Somewhere. Forgive me, I don't have the link, but it was no doubt off The Leaky Cauldron. At any rate, the first version I read led me to believe that JKR didn't want a graveyard in POA because of the major scene of GOF. My 2 cents. CRobo. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat May 29 11:25:21 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 11:25:21 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99717 Earendil wrote: We know from PoA that Sirius thought Lupin to be the traitor, and adviced James and Lily to choose Peter as their Keeper (which means they both knew who their Keeper was since *they* were the one who *chose* him). It would be logical for Sirius to share his doubts about Lupin with them, since he thought trusting Lupin would endanger his friends' lives. snip OTOH, I don't think Lily trusted Harry to anyone. First, having just discovered they were betrayed and being under LV's attack, I think she wouldn't trust *anyone* at that point (with the possible exception of DD). Second, she died protecting Harry, so she had to be the one with Harry. vmonte responds: I agree that Lily was with Harry the whole time, and died protecting him. I'm not sure about the voice we believe as being James, it might be someone else; although I'm not certain it was Lupin. Why do you suppose that Sirius believed that Lupin was the traitor? And why did the Potter's believe him? Do you think that James found out that Lupin was in love with Lily? Also, it's too bad that James (if he was at GH) didn't change into a stag and carry Lily and Harry out of the house to safety. vmonte From viviane at lestic.com Sat May 29 12:25:55 2004 From: viviane at lestic.com (earendil_fr) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 12:25:55 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Earendil wrote: > > We know from PoA that Sirius thought Lupin to be the traitor, and > adviced James and Lily to choose Peter as their Keeper (which means > they both knew who their Keeper was since *they* were the one who > *chose* him). It would be logical for Sirius to share his doubts > about Lupin with them, since he thought trusting Lupin would endanger > his friends' lives. > > snip > > OTOH, I don't think Lily trusted Harry to anyone. First, having just > discovered they were betrayed and being under LV's attack, I think > she wouldn't trust *anyone* at that point (with the possible > exception of DD). Second, she died protecting Harry, so she had to be > the one with Harry. > > > vmonte responds: > > I agree that Lily was with Harry the whole time, and died protecting > him. I'm not sure about the voice we believe as being James, it might > be someone else; although I'm not certain it was Lupin. > > Why do you suppose that Sirius believed that Lupin was the traitor? > And why did the Potter's believe him? Do you think that James > found out that Lupin was in love with Lily? Earendil again: I don't think that James found out that Lupin was in love with Lily - actually I don't even think Lupin was in love with Lily. I can't give you the exact quote in English or give you the exact page in the UK or US book, but I can translate what I have in my French version of the PoA: -- beginning of translated quote, PoA chapter 19 --- [Peter to Lupin]: 'Sirius would have told you if they had changed the Secret Keeper.' 'They wouldn't have told me if they thought I was the spy,' Lupin remarked. 'It's the reason why you didn't tell me, Sirius, right?' he asked. 'Forgive me,' Black replied. 'Of course, Padfoot, my old friend. [...] And you, will you forgive me for thinking you were the spy?' --- end of translated quote --- (sorry if there's any mistake) It seems very clear to me from this quote that Sirius believed Lupin to be the traitor. The question left is why? Why would he think one of his best and oldest friend to be on LV's side? It could be that loving Lily thing, but IMHO it'd rather be something else we don't even begin to suspect. Something we will learn about in the later books. As for why the Potters believed Sirius about suspecting Lupin... Earlier in the same chapter, Sirius tells Harry: (still translated quote) 'At the last moment, I convinced James and Lily to take Peter instead of me, to make him their Secret Keeper in my place...' Whatever motivated the decision, it's both James AND Lily who chose Peter. If they didn't have any suspicion about Lupin, their next logical choice after Sirius would have been Lupin. So why didn't they choose him? Because Sirius *convinced* them to choose *Peter*. How could he convince them? By sharing with them his doubts about Lupin. There could be other explanations, but this one is (to me anyway) the one which makes the most sense. It's also strongly supported by canon. Earendil, who never ever considered the voice Harry hears could be other than James' before joining this group. From viviane at lestic.com Sat May 29 12:33:03 2004 From: viviane at lestic.com (earendil_fr) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 12:33:03 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: <8c.c20ad10.2de9bfdb@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99719 > alina at d... writes: > Here's a question though, did Lily and James know that Peter was > made Secret Keeper instead of Sirius? Seems to me their knowledge > isn't a prerequisit of the Secret spell. > =============== > Sherrie here: > > Lily might not have known, but James certainly did - it was he who, with > Sirius, made the decision to switch to Pettigrew. Earendil: In PoA chapter 19, Sirius explains he 'convinced James AND Lily' (emphasise mine) to *chose* Peter, to *make him* their Secret Keeper. (I don't have the exact original wording since I only have a French version of PoA) This answers both questions: - Lily knew about the switch - It's both James and Lily who took the decision, so they knew Peter was their Secret Keeper. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 29 13:21:50 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 13:21:50 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: <40B7D634.6080201@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99720 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene wrote: > I'm rereading the PoA (to get the last uncontaminated joy :-) ), > and I noticed something for the first time: > Lupin gives two completely different resignation stories to Hagrid and to Harry.< > How poor Harry can achieve a working relationship with Snape if responsible adults in his life (Lupin, and to the much greater degree, Sirius) act as if it's very important for them to pass their baggage with Snape to Harry? Rhetorical question, I know. > Not so rhetorical if Lupin is deliberately using Harry's (and Sirius's) hatred of Snape to win sympathy for himself and deflect scrutiny from his own actions. Hagrid also tells the kids it was Snape who told the Slytherins about Lupin, and Lupin also mentions that anyone might have been bitten. But Hagrid implies Snape's motive was that Lupin was loose on the grounds, while Lupin himself says he thinks Snape's motive was disappointment over losing the Order of Merlin. It becomes important to know how quickly the transformation wears off and for that we have no canon. It was noon before Harry saw Lupin in human form. But we do know that two of the activities Lupin missed during the year --his class and the Quidditch game-- took place in the daytime. If Lupin was still transformed at breakfast time when Snape made his announcement, that puts quite a different light on Snape's actions. Fred and George aren't the only rule breakers in the school. A Slytherin with time on his or her hands might well sneak off into the Forest. And Snape believes that Lupin tried to kill once before to keep his secret. Remember, he believes the "joke" was deliberate murder and that Lupin was in on it. Pippin Didn't Rowling tell us to keep our eyes on Snape? He's telling the truth, I swear! From BrwNeil at aol.com Sat May 29 13:48:24 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 09:48:24 EDT Subject: Shipping in GoF, Important or Not? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99721 Let's first look at our three main characters, taking Harry first, who seems the easiest. I doubt anyone will argue that Harry likes Cho is GoF. Even though he realizes Hermione is a girl, a very attractive girl, and has his own date at the ball, Harry can't take his eyes off Cho. Ron, although attracted to Fleur in a physical sense and in order to give us a few laughs seems quite upset that Hermione is with Krum at the ball. Most people on both sides of the H/Hr vs R/Hr debate seem to agree that Ron definitely likes Hermione in GoF. Hermione is the most complicated of the three. Although she was asked and went to the Ball with Victor, I personally don't see that she is suddenly in love with him. Each time I read the book, I become more and more convinced that Hermione likes Ron and is upset that he didn't ask her to the Ball. Now comes the big question. Rowling stated that everyone liked or was with the wrong person in GoF. Harry again is easy and OotP has proven that he and Cho do not belong together. Just the fact that she would have been out of Hogwarts by book seven should have told us that wouldn't last. But what about Ron and Hermione? Do we concentrate only on Fleur and Victor and say that they were the wrong matches. Rowlings says that the characters like the wrong people in GoF. I contend that Ron and Hermione both like each other in the book and that Victor and Fleur only bring this feeling to the surface. If we believe that Ron and Hermione like each other in GoF and if we believe what Rowling said about people liking the wrong person, then R/Hr can't happen. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 29 14:11:47 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 14:11:47 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99722 " wrote: > >> My guess would be that Harry's parents are buried there, but that their headstones have different dates for the day they died. I think James was probably killed a few days before GH, and that the male voice (Harry hears during the dementor scene) yelling for Lily to run with Harry is not his father. Katydidn't: > *blinks in confusion* where did this idea come from? I mean I have read this theory before, but the only basis in canon that there is is tenuous at best (as I see it). I guess what I mean is why do you buy into it as much as you do? < Pippin: I can't speak for anyone else, but the very idea that it is James and Lily whose graves Harry would find speaks to the yearning to reunite Harry with his parents in some way. But I'm not sure why James and Lily would be buried at Hogwarts. If they were, surely someone would have taken Harry to visit their graves before? Perhaps it would be more fruitful to speculate about other graves we might find there? Previous headmasters The House ghosts Moaning Myrtle Professor Binns Professor Quirrell Barty Crouch Sr. Cedric Diggory Ooh, maybe Harry sees the graveyard for the first time when Dumbledore dies? Pippin From elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com Sat May 29 15:14:56 2004 From: elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com (elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 15:14:56 -0000 Subject: Shared core? In-Reply-To: <20040528083442.16215.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99723 mooseming wrote: > > On Ceefax this morning Daniel Radcliffe (sp?) said he thought Harry > would die as he and Voldemort share the same core which you see in the > 4th movie. > > I cannot think what in book 4 would equate to this observation, does > anyone have any ideas? > > and one in Harry's? Elli writes: Their wands share a core, but I don't think it implies they, themselves, share a core. This is only speculation, and unless JK Rowling gave Dan Radcliffe any special information concerning the character he plays, his speculation carries no more weight than anyone else's. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat May 29 15:27:31 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 15:27:31 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99724 Amy Z: > You are right that Lupin can only speculate about Snape's motives. > Considering the context, though, he's being pretty damn calm. Snape > informed students of something that Dumbledore, as well as Lupin, > wanted kept quiet. Whether Lupin would have resigned without this > scandal, we can't know; but Snape robbed him of the chance to leave > with dignity and for a noble reason. Instead, he forced both > Dumbledore and Lupin into Lupin's resigning. > Jen R: I've been wondering whether Snape's announcement at the Slytehrin table didn't also lead to another "legacy of hate" i.e., Umbridge's anit-werewolf legislation that 'makes it almost impossible (for Lupin)to get a job' (US, chap.14, p. 302). According to Sirius, this legislation was drafted two years before OOTP, meaning sometime during year three. I used to think Snape might be the impetus behind the legislation, but he didn't appear to know Umbridge at all. More likely, Umbridge seized on the scandal at Hogwarts to further her own agenda, and perpetuate the stigma surrounding werewolfs. So certainly the legacy of hate *does* live on, but I think it goes both ways. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 29 16:11:07 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 16:11:07 -0000 Subject: The Good and Evil of Snape (was: Harry ... act like ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99725 Sue wrote: > > But my personal take on it is that if JKR says he's meant to be a horrible person, he is. He's her character, after all, and we have to respect her vision.< Pippin: But is horrible the same as evil? I think Rowling is making a very important distinction between rights and feelings. Snape does not respect other people's feelings and for that he is deservedly unpopular. But he seldom infringes on anyone's rights. He does not refuse to teach potions to Harry or Neville. He does make them miserable, but not to the point where they can't learn. He gives Harry proper credit for potions that are made correctly. He blusters about getting people expelled or turning them over to Dementors, but when the chips are down he doesn't actually do it. In fact he goes so far as to invent an excuse for the Trio for their attack on him in PoA, and he turns Sirius over to justice instead of taking revenge himself. Even though Dumbledore recognizes that Snape's hatred of Harry is a wound that may never heal, he still trusts Snape, because, IMO, horrible as Snape is, he has so far consistently supported Dumbledore's values. In the two cases where Snape seems to have defied Dumbledore, there is canon for Dumbledore tacit approval. Dumbledore does not refuse to accept Lupin's resignation as he did Hagrid's, or arrange to let Lupin stay at the school as he did Trelawney. And Dumbledore does not arrange for someone else to teach Harry Occlumency. JKR tells us that we shouldn't rely entirely on our feelings to distinguish between good and evil, or at least we should be suspicious if something feels both right and pleasurable. JKR is making a good many readers feel that it's both right and easy to hate Snape. It could be she plans to teach them a lesson. Sue: However, as a good writer, she couldn't make [Snape] two-dimensional, and whatever she intended at the beginning, he has ended up a fascinating, complex character, far more interesting than the "good guys". Probably a case of the character getting away from the writer! :-) Think, say, Shylock in THE MERCHANT OF VENICE - I am pretty sure he was meant to be the villain, but Shakespeare being Shakespeare, couldn't make him two-dimensional, whatever he intended.< Pippin: I would give both Rowling and Shakespear credit for wanting to present their characters as three dimensional, and getting the audience to see that in Snape's/Shylock's shoes we might be just as bitter, just as unconcerned with how we behave to others. After all if people are going to hate you anyway, what difference does it make how you treat them? By the conventions of his time, Shakespeare had to show Jews as inferior socially and morally to Christians. Thus Shylock has to be utterly discredited, and daughter Jessica must convert. But does JKR mean to discredit Slytherin utterly and show the 'good' Slytherins converting to other Houses? Or will there be a solution dearer to JKR's liberal heart? Pippin From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sat May 29 16:11:17 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 16:11:17 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > (snip my original post) > > Carolyn: > > > > Yes, what was Wormtail up to whilst all this was going on. The only one small enough to satisfactorily fit down the tunnel. I think it is very possible that he slipped down there and removed the protection for the reasons you suggest, and perhaps this was always his role - the others had specifically taught him how to do this, because they were all too big to get down the tunnel in their transformed states. > > Some questions, however: > > > > This still assumes a large werewolf could get out of that tiny, > > cramped tunnel, once the protection was removed. But when in PoA Sirius dragged Ron into the tunnel, he was in dog form. When the kids went through, they had to bend, or even double over, but that is still big dog height. A wolf isn't bigger than a big dog (some wolves are smaller, in fact). Is there any evidence that werewolves are considrably larger than a large dog? If not, why couldn't transformed!Lupin use the tunnel? Naama From viviane at lestic.com Sat May 29 16:26:45 2004 From: viviane at lestic.com (earendil_fr) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 16:26:45 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99727 arealin wrote: > I think that maybe the graveyard has something to do with ghosts. > Perhaps all the ghosts who inhabit Hogwarts are buried there. We > might find out more about ghosts and the rules of their existence. > Anyway, it would just make sense to me if that's what the graveyard > was there for. Earendil: That's a very, very interesting idea you have here. After hearing that piece of information, I was wondering why there would be a graveyard at Hogwarts at all, and how it could come into play. But the whole ghosts mystery really makes sense. If Hogwarts' ghosts were buried there, it explains why they haunt Hogwarts while they might have died somewhere else. Apart from Myrtle and Binns, we have no information on where they died, but judging from Nick's story (the book's version is edited, you can find the full original story on JKR's new website) he's very likely to have died somewhere else. Also, there could be non-ghosts buried in that graveyard. So who could possibly have been buried there? Honestly, I don't buy the James&Lily theory. I can think of no reason why they would have been buried at Hogwarts (unless it has some unknown obscure property). If anyone can explain why they would have been buried *specifically* at Hogwarts and not somewhere else, please share! OTOH, I could picture the founders being buried there... *That* would make sense... Earendil, amazed to see how we all manage to speculate on tidbits of unconfirmed information ;-) From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sat May 29 16:47:52 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 16:47:52 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > bboy_mn wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > > Perhaps, Lupin was there instead of James, or one or more members of the Order who were standing guard. However, that leaves us to come up with a reason for Jame to not be there, and if he was not there, is he indeed now dead? If not dead, then were has he been all this time? If someone else was there in his place, are they now dead? If they are not, then why hasn't their part been revealed >before now? James' "echo" emerged from Voldemort's wand at the graveyard. So, certainly James is dead, and at Volemort's hand. Since (according to the corrected version) James emerges before Lily, we also certainly know that he was killed before she was. > If James was indeed killed a few days before, that could have been a justifiable reason for one or more members of the Order to have >been standing guard over Lily. If there was some other man at GH and Voldemort had killed him (or, in fact, cursed him in any way), then his "echo" or the echo of the curse would have emerged *between* James and Lily. Since that wasn't the case, and there was somebody else in GH, he must have been a collaborator. Which kind of makes the whole dramatic secret keeper, betrayal, and Voldemort's attack a bit redundant, no? Naama, hoping to encourage bboy in his admirable resistance From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 29 16:54:53 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 16:54:53 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99729 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Amy Z: > > You are right that Lupin can only speculate about Snape's > motives. Considering the context, though, he's being pretty damn calm. Snape informed students of something that Dumbledore, as well as Lupin, wanted kept quiet. Whether Lupin would have resigned without this scandal, we can't know; but Snape robbed him of the chance to leave with dignity and for a noble reason. Instead, he forced both Dumbledore and Lupin into Lupin's resigning.<< > > Jen R: I've been wondering whether Snape's announcement at the Slytehrin table didn't also lead to another "legacy of hate" i.e., Umbridge's anit-werewolf legislation that 'makes it almost impossible (for Lupin)to get a job' (US, chap.14, p. 302). According to Sirius, this legislation was drafted two years before OOTP, meaning sometime during year three. > > I used to think Snape might be the impetus behind the legislation, but he didn't appear to know Umbridge at all. More likely, Umbridge seized on the scandal at Hogwarts to further her own agenda, and perpetuate the stigma surrounding werewolfs. > > So certainly the legacy of hate *does* live on, but I think it goes both ways.< Pippin: You mean, if Snape had kept quiet, and Lupin had resigned to "spend more time with his remaining limbs", there wouldn't have been a scandal and Umbridge couldn't have used it? You think there should have been a cover-up? Or are you saying the scandal would have been lessened if Lupin himself had told the school why he was leaving? Because I don't see that Snape's announcement deprived him of the opportunity to do that. Of course it wouldn't have looked so noble if he'd told *everyone* that Snape outed him just because he didn't get an Order of Merlin. Think about that when you think about whether Lupin gave out two different explanations for why he was leaving. The problem is the one that came up in the My Remus thread. Whether you are inclined to excuse him under the circumstances or not, Remus proved he was untrustworthy when it came to taking his potion. He proved, unfortunately, that the werewolf stereotype is an accurate description of him. Of course that does not prove that it is accurate for werewolves generally, but both Lupin's detractors in the novel and many of his supporters on the list behave as if it would. As if the way to refute the stereotype were to show that no werewolf is capable of such behavior. But that is to deny the humanity of the werewolf. It is what the jargon-mongers call one-dimensionalizing the Other. It takes the whole range of human experience and compresses it into the narrow limits of a useful moral example. IMO, Lupin has just as much right to appear harmless and do evil as Ludo Bagman or Gilderoy Lockhart. And JKR, as an author, has the right to force her characters to deal with that situation in her novels, just as people have to deal with it in real life. Pippin From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sat May 29 17:05:38 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 17:05:38 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99730 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "earendil_fr" wrote: >> It seems very clear to me from this quote that Sirius believed Lupin to be the traitor. The question left is why? Why would he think one of his best and oldest friend to be on LV's side? It could be that loving Lily thing, but IMHO it'd rather be something else we don't even begin to suspect. Something we will learn about in the >later books. We don't need to go very far to find "something else"; DD told the Potters that someone close to them was a spy. So Sirius knew that one of his best friends is on LV's side. He basically had to choose between Pettigrew and Lupin. In the shack, he tells us why he didn't suspect Peter. That leaves Lupin as the spy by default. It's completely different from Sirius spontaneously suspecting Lupin. Naama From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 29 17:14:54 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 17:14:54 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "c_robocker" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Here is a tidbit from an interview at BBC's Newround. Alfonso > > Cuaron relates a conversation he had with JKRowling. > > > > --- Quoted in Part - See link below--- . > > > > She says: 'No, you can't have a graveyard there'. > > And I'm like, 'Why?' > > She says: 'Oh because the graveyard is near this other wing of the > > castle and it's going to play an important part in number six > > because such and such and such.' > > > > --- End Quote --- > > > > CRobo: > > This is different than the first version I read. Somewhere. > Forgive me, I don't have the link, but it was no doubt off The Leaky > Cauldron. At any rate, the first version I read led me to believe > that JKR didn't want a graveyard in POA because of the major scene > of GOF. > > My 2 cents. > CRobo. bboy_mn: Well, I can't say with any absolute authority, but the interviewer (Lizo) works for CBBC Newround and has done several private interviews with the cast and crew of HP. So, I respect the accuracy of what is quote. Many times what you read in an article about the movie or the cast is a writer who is sampling and paraphrasing bits and pieces of someone else's interview. Newround's interviews are first hand. Also, there should be no doubt that Cuaron is giving his impression and interpretation of what JKR said; "...because such and such and such..." is a pretty strong clue to that. His statement is by no means an absolute fact or a direct quote of JKR. None the less, his point is that JKR said the graveyard couldn't be at that location. That may have been significant, or it simple could have been JKR with her superior and detailed knowledge saying no more than, the graveyard is not there, it's on the other side of the castle. Cuaron may have expanded that statement with his own assumed significants, but that is speculation on my part. I also suspect that CBBC Newsround records their interview, and therefore we are reading a transcript rather than the interviews best recollection of what was said. I'm usually very good at speculating and fantasizing reasons for various details, but I'm stumped as to why Hogwart's graveyard could be significant. If it were just an insignificant detail like the location of the Hogwart's gardens and cabbage patch, why would JKR care where the director put it? If it is truly significant, then how could it possibly fit into the story? just curious. bboy_mn From Batchevra at aol.com Sat May 29 17:18:00 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 13:18:00 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Good and Evil of Snape (was: Harry ... act like .... Message-ID: <1a7.244c9cd5.2dea1fc8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99732 In a message dated 5/29/04 12:48:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: (snip) He does not refuse to teach potions to Harry or Neville. He does make them miserable, but not to the point where they can't learn. He gives Harry proper credit for potions that are made correctly. (snip) I disagree with you about Snape giving Harry proper credit for potions that are made correctly, in OOTP, we have several times that Snape deliberately destroyed Harry's potion flask. Even when it was properly done. Snape doesn't like Harry and has made it clear since the day that Harry came into his class, that being said, he also has tried his best to protect Harry. That makes Snape a complicated character, and an interesting read. I don't think that Snape wiil ever make friends with Harry, but I think that they are going to have to find a way to work together to fight Voldemort. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat May 29 17:22:06 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 11:22:06 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c445a1$789a0ef0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 99733 Pippin: You mean, if Snape had kept quiet, and Lupin had resigned to "spend more time with his remaining limbs", there wouldn't have been a scandal and Umbridge couldn't have used it? You think there should have been a cover-up? Or are you saying the scandal would have been lessened if Lupin himself had told the school why he was leaving? Because I don't see that Snape's announcement deprived him of the opportunity to do that. Of course it wouldn't have looked so noble if he'd told *everyone* that Snape outed him just because he didn't get an Order of Merlin. Think about that when you think about whether Lupin gave out two different explanations for why he was leaving. Sherry now: I don't think that anyone should have been told about Lupin being a werewolf. To me, it is comparable to our world, and having a school full of students being told that a teacher has the HIV virus or some other mindless fear evoking disease or disability. It would be inexcusable, and a violation of that person's civil rights. I also don't blame Lupin on the issue of forgetting his potion. People do forget their meds, even ones that could be life threatening to miss. Especially in times of great anxiety and stress. Sherry G From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 29 17:46:30 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 13:46:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99734 In a message dated 05/29/2004 12:17:06 PM Central Daylight Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > If it were just an insignificant detail like the > location of the Hogwart's gardens and cabbage patch, why would JKR > care where the director put it? If it is truly significant, then how > could it possibly fit into the story? > > just curious. > > bboy_mn > I read speculation that she was talking about GOF rather than Book 6 and that it was misinterpreted by Cuaron but I have misgivings about that theory. Would LV really have had Harry portkeyed to such a close location? And, perhaps more importantly, would Tom Riddle Sr. have been buried at Hogwarts? Someone asked why would J/L have been buried at Hogwarts I want to know why they wouldn't have been? Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 29 17:48:22 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 13:48:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts Message-ID: <24.577ae00d.2dea26e6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99735 In a message dated 05/29/2004 11:49:24 AM Central Daylight Time, naama_gat at hotmail.com writes: > James' "echo" emerged from Voldemort's wand at the graveyard. So, > certainly James is dead, and at Volemort's hand. Since (according to > the corrected version) James emerges before Lily, we also certainly > know that he was killed before she was. > > Ummm James would have emerged AFTER Lily in the corrected versions -- reverse order ;-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat May 29 18:25:29 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 18:25:29 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99736 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Here's some support for the misinterpretation theory, which can also be used to obfuscate any supposed clue in the PoA movie, from TLC's report on the cast and crew screening in London: "He also thanked the cast and crew for not speaking Spanish, because, as he explained it, when he had an idea on set and tried to communicate that idea, he usually failed verbally - which he said worked out, because what everyone thought he said worked out a lot better than what he actually said." --JDR From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat May 29 18:32:30 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 18:32:30 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99737 Pippin: > You mean, if Snape had kept quiet, and Lupin had resigned to > "spend more time with his remaining limbs", there wouldn't have > been a scandal and Umbridge couldn't have used it? You think > there should have been a cover-up? > > Or are you saying the scandal would have been lessened if > Lupin himself had told the school why he was leaving? Because > I don't see that Snape's announcement deprived him of the > opportunity to do that. Jen: I don't think the reason for Lupin's resignation needs to be announced to a table full of students, nor do I think it needs to be lied about and 'covered up'. A simple 'personal reasons' would suffice. Lupin can tell his reason to anyone he chooses, and give Dumbledore permission to tell the other teachers or the Board of Governors. Given the prejudice of the WW, I suspect the information would still get out, but the context would be very different. And yes, I find it objectionable that Umbridge would take the fear generated by the 'scandal' at Hogwarts to push through legislation based on personal bias & hatred. If she passed through legislation based on a very real need to ensure student safety, that's a different story. Is that likely with Umbridge? She wasn't prioritizing student safety when she threatened Harry & Co. with Crucio and approved use of force against students in her office; she wasn't overly concerned about taking students into the out-of-bounds Forbidden Forest. Pippin: > It is what the jargon-mongers call one-dimensionalizing the > Other. It takes the whole range of human experience and > compresses it into the narrow limits of a useful moral example. > IMO, Lupin has just as much right to appear harmless and do > evil as Ludo Bagman or Gilderoy Lockhart. And JKR, as an > author, has the right to force her characters to deal with that > situation in her novels, just as people have to deal with it in real > life. Jen: I have no problem with JKR choosing to depict a person as a bumbler, an aggrandizer, or as harmless, then for other characters to discover that person is evil as well. I have no problem with duality at all, and think JKR does a wonderful job of depicting moral ambiguity. And Lupin is a highly ambiguous character. But that same idea leads me to wonder--does JKR want the reader to make the same mistake Sirius & James made when they suspected Lupin of being the spy in the First War? Did they *also* see Lupin's cowardice, his difficulty standing up to his friends and his ommissions as proof that he was ESE & in-league with Voldemort? Will Harry also do this before discovering the truth? I would find that a *much* more interesting and enlightening point for JKR to make--see how easy it is to turn your back on a friend in a climate of fear and hatred? See how easy it is to let subtle prejudices that were buried during the good times, come out when the going gets tough? Now that would really follow JKR's dictum of choice and choosing between what is right and what is easy! From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sat May 29 18:35:45 2004 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 19:35:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: <000b01c445a1$789a0ef0$0400a8c0@pensive> References: <000b01c445a1$789a0ef0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <40B8D801.8010407@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99738 Sherry Gomes wrote: > I don't think that anyone should have been told about Lupin being a > werewolf. To me, it is comparable to our world, and having a school full of > students being told that a teacher has the HIV virus or some other mindless > fear evoking disease or disability. It would be inexcusable, and a > violation of that person's civil rights. I also don't blame Lupin on the > issue of forgetting his potion. People do forget their meds, even ones that > could be life threatening to miss. Especially in times of great anxiety and > stress. But people who forget, say, insulin, risk only their own lifes. Lupin's slip threatened other people. I don't know whether Dumbledore would be prepared to give him another chance, but not many people would. Snape closed this choice and I understand why Dumbledore would be angry about that, even if he would ask Lupin to resign anyway. Lupin also put children's life at risk in other ways - if he told about Sirius being animagus, Dumbledore could convince Fudge to remove dementors. Irene From siskiou at vcem.com Sat May 29 18:35:01 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 11:35:01 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shipping in GoF, Important or Not? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1477797164.20040529113501@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99739 Hi, Saturday, May 29, 2004, 6:48:24 AM, BrwNeil wrote: > Now comes the big question. Rowling stated that everyone liked or was with > the wrong person in GoF. My impression for the "wrong pairings" were: Harry/Cho Hermione/Krum Ron/Fleur I also think JKR used the term "love" rather loosely in this context (didn't she say: Everyone is in love with the wrong people?) > If we believe that Ron and Hermione like each other in GoF and if we believe > what Rowling said about people liking the wrong person, then R/Hr can't happen. While there were hints of Ron and Hermione liking each other, I certainly wouldn't say they were a couple in any way in GoF. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From jessicaiseman at yahoo.com Sat May 29 15:57:30 2004 From: jessicaiseman at yahoo.com (jessicaiseman) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 15:57:30 -0000 Subject: Shared core? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, elizabeth1603 at y... wrote: > mooseming wrote: > > On Ceefax this morning Daniel Radcliffe (sp?) said he thought Harry would die as he and Voldemort share the same core which you see in the 4th movie. > > I cannot think what in book 4 would equate to this observation, does anyone have any ideas? > > and one in Harry's? > Elli writes: > Their wands share a core, but I don't think it implies they, > themselves, share a core. This is only speculation, and unless JK > Rowling gave Dan Radcliffe any special information concerning the > character he plays, his speculation carries no more weight than > anyone else's. I agree, I think it is merely speculation on Dan's part. It doesn't really seem to fit in with the prophecy that one or the other will die. He seems to be saying that the only way to kill Voldemort is for Harry to die (sort of like in Dragonheart I guess), but the prophecy clearly states that one will kill the other. Jessica From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sat May 29 15:55:59 2004 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 11:55:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does JKR sees ambition as a flaw? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99741 Alla: > Could someone give me any ideas why. I alsor ead somewhere, maybe > even on this lists that for many Brits ambition is not considered to > be a virtue. Is it true? > I'm not British, but I don't think pure ambition is considered a virtue many Americans either. Is one of those words that can mean something good, but usually doesn't. It's certainly not on any traditional (Christian) list of virtues. Barbara Roberts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jessicaiseman at yahoo.com Sat May 29 16:28:18 2004 From: jessicaiseman at yahoo.com (jessicaiseman) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 16:28:18 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99742 > > > Carolyn: > > > > > > Yes, what was Wormtail up to whilst all this was going on. The > only one small enough to satisfactorily fit down the tunnel. I > think it is very possible that he slipped down there and removed > the protection for the reasons you suggest, and perhaps this was > always his role - the others had specifically taught him how to do > this, because they were all too big to get down the tunnel in their > transformed states. > > > > This still assumes a large werewolf could get out of that tiny, > > > cramped tunnel, once the protection was removed. Naama: > But when in PoA Sirius dragged Ron into the tunnel, he was in dog > form. When the kids went through, they had to bend, or even double > over, but that is still big dog height. A wolf isn't bigger than a > big dog (some wolves are smaller, in fact). Is there any evidence > that werewolves are considrably larger than a large dog? If not, why > couldn't transformed!Lupin use the tunnel? I never thought that transformed!Lupin couldn't use the tunnel. He obviously states that he went around the surrounding area with his friends in their transformed states. All of the Marauders were able to use the tunnel, however Peter was the smallest of the three in order to evade the branches of the Whomping Willow and press the button to open the tunnel (POA, Ch 18, p 354). Now the question is was there a way to open the tunnel from the inside or only from the outside. This could be the way that transformed!Lupin was trapped inside the Shreiking Shack and tunnel during his transformation as was released by Madam Pomfrey at a safe time. It could also be the case that he was unable in his wolf state to open the entrance to the tunnel himself, because he does say that as a wolf his mind was wild and clouded and that only being with his friends made it clearer. "Under their influence, I became less dangerous. My body was still wolfish, but my mind seemed to become less so while I was with them." POA, Chapter 18, pg 355. So perhaps he only needed his friends to open the door for him because it seems that the minds of Animagi remain more human than werewolves in their transformed state. He may have been incapable of freeing himself, while his friends could do it for him. Snape was able to use the tunnel as a child and an adult, Lupin uses it as an adult, Harry, Hermione and Ron use it as well, so it must be big enough for at least an adult to use (although it may be cramped). But I do think a stag would have a hard time using the tunnel if a person had to bend over to use it :)) Although there is no proof against an enchantment to prevent Transformed!Lupin from accessing the passageway. Jessica From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 29 19:27:04 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 19:27:04 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: <000b01c445a1$789a0ef0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99743 > Sherry now: > > I don't think that anyone should have been told about Lupin being a werewolf. To me, it is comparable to our world, and having a school full of students being told that a teacher has the HIV virus or some other mindless fear evoking disease or disability. It would be inexcusable, and a violation of that person's civil rights. I also don't blame Lupin on the issue of forgetting his potion. People do forget their meds, even ones that could be life threatening to miss. Especially in times of great anxiety and stress. > Pippin: It would be mindless to fear HIV positive individuals in a school setting, because whether it's being treated or not, HIV is not contagious under the conditions normally encountered in a school. Where I live, you have to have a tuberculosis test before you can teach, or even volunteer in a school, because active tuberculosis *is* contagious under those conditions. Lupin, without his potion, is contagious and completely unable to keep himself from harming other people. He was loose on the grounds in a situation where he might encounter students, and did in fact encounter three of them. As they say in my country, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. IMO, Lupin's right to privacy ended when he endangered innocent people. Pippin From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Sat May 29 19:59:29 2004 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 19:59:29 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99744 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > > Or are you [Jen Reese} saying the scandal would have been lessened > if Lupin himself had told the school why he was leaving? Because > I don't see that Snape's announcement deprived him of the > opportunity to do that. Renee; You're right, it didnt. But remember Ron's reaction to Hermione's revelation that Lupin was a werewolf. Then multipy this by at least half the Hogwarts student population, and it becomes apparent (to me, at least), why this wasn't advisable. For all we know, Dumbledore advised him against it, because he's trying to cover up the fact that the werewolf he hired has been roaming freely about on the Hogwarts grounds. Somehow, I doubt Snape has told this to the students - he turned against Lupin, but I doubt he turned directly against Dumbledore. Pippin: > Of course it wouldn't have looked so noble > if he'd told *everyone* that Snape outed him just because he > didn't get an Order of Merlin. Think about that when you think > about whether Lupin gave out two different explanations for why > he was leaving. Renee: Two different things are happening here: #1 Snape, who lets Lupin's secret slip, and 2# Lupin, who leaves. # 1: Lupin tells Harry the loss of the Order of Merlin was the last straw for Snape. This is his explanation for Snape's decision to give him away. As we're never given Snape's own explanation, it remains conjecture whether Lupin is right or not. I doubt Snape would have mentioned the Order of Merlin - it wouldn't have looked very noble if he had admitted he was acting out of spite, would it? That doesn't mean the loss of the order didn't play a role. Personally, I think it *was* the last straw, on top of Lupin's dangerous forgetfulness and the escape of Lupin's old crony/Snape's old enemy. Maybe Lupin thinks the same. Or maybe he's just hitting back. Based on the text alone, it's impossible to say which. #2 Lupin leaves because Snape has outed him. I don't see him give any other explanation. He doesn't say "I'd have left anyway"; his resigning "firs' thing this mornin'" (Hagrid) is too vague to be conclusing. All Lupin does is admit Snape has a point. He doesn't get the chance to leave with dignity. But I have to say I'm not sure he would have left if Snape had remained silent. It would be just like him to convince himself it wouldn't happen again. Conclusion: we have two explanations here - for two different things. Renee From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat May 29 20:02:15 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 20:02:15 -0000 Subject: Simple Snape math--addenuem In-Reply-To: <20040529104509.LHQK24784.out014.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Silverthorne wrote: > > My apologies for misreading your post and confusing the fly zapper for 'Snape's son'--I will admit to perhaps reading a bit too quickly, and since the main thrust if your arguement was *about* Snape's supposed son and his wife, I probably combined both examples mentioned in your post to both mean the son and not one as Snape--I am at work and reading in between truck shipments and calls for supplies usually, so I could very well get the various sentences a little twisted. It would not be the first time. > Kneasy: Right; I'm glad that's sorted out. Thank you. And no, I don't bear grudges. Not often anyway. Well, sometimes. Nearly. Silverthorne: > However, the still applies to the shouting match memory, where you *do* say the young boy is Snape's son and the parents are Snape himself and the wife (whether or not one chooses to believe it was a scene of abuse or not is another kettle of fish, and not the point I was trying to get to--as IIRC that was where you and potioncat went off on your own tangent and at which point I was no longer really paying attention). So, the math is still off. > Kneasy: This isn't the first time that posters have disagreed with me over this; previously no conclusion was reached and I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing didn't happen again. We just don't have accurate enough timelines for either side of the argument to produce a convincing argument. Mostly it's based on JKR answering questions on how old characters are and coming up with answers like "Er, 36. I think." The same happened in March this year when she was asked about Charlie and Bill Weasley; the answer she gave couldn't be right. The timeframe didn't match canon. This is why I posted that estimates of ages varied so much. Now I agree that Mr & Mrs Sevvy would have to work to a tight schedule, but I think it can be done. He's a fast worker once he gets going. At least, I hope so. Kneasy From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Sat May 29 20:20:52 2004 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 20:20:52 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: <000b01c445a1$789a0ef0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: Sherry G: > > > I also don't blame Lupin on the > issue of forgetting his potion. People do forget their meds, even ones that > could be life threatening to miss. Especially in times of great anxiety and > stress. Renee: What I don't understand is why Snape didn't bring the potion along when he discovered Lupin had left his office and was running towards the Shrieking Shack. He's a wizard. Surely he can find a way to carry the cup without spilling the contents? Renee From dallas at loanleaders.com Sat May 29 19:51:03 2004 From: dallas at loanleaders.com (dobbyisdumbledore) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 19:51:03 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99747 > > I'm usually very good at speculating and fantasizing reasons for > various details, but I'm stumped as to why Hogwart's graveyard could > be significant. If it were just an insignificant detail like the > location of the Hogwart's gardens and cabbage patch, why would JKR > care where the director put it? If it is truly significant, then how > could it possibly fit into the story? > > just curious. I can see why JKR would think a book 6 graveyard scene important... Because if could very well be where James and Lilly are Buried. All this time, at least to my recollection, Harry has never asked where James and Lilly's bodies (or remains) were. We know that James died (most likely) by AK, Lilly as well... we also know that the body doesn't disappear. The assumption is (of course) that the bodies dissapeared within the explosion at the house in Godric's hallow, but that hasn't been confirmed. We do not know the origin of the explosion, nor the whereabouts of the bodies/gravesights. That may be something we learn. Additionally the bodies may have been buried at a graveyard at Hogwarts. Possibly we find that Voldemort looks to undo any "old magic" by Lilly by using part of her body (like part of his own father's) in some ritual or other. However, the mention of a possible graveyard in book 6 can very well be the gravesights of Lilly and James Potter - Dobbyisdumbledore From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 29 21:10:51 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 21:10:51 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99748 > Renee: > > What I don't understand is why Snape didn't bring the potion along when he discovered Lupin had left his office and was running towards the Shrieking Shack. He's a wizard. Surely he can find a way to carry the cup without spilling the contents? > Pippin: Lupin tells us that as long as he takes the potion in the week before he transforms, he's safe, but we don't know if he can take it any time up until the transformation. For instance, I have a medication I'm supposed to take a half an hour before I visit the dentist. If I forget to take it till I get there, then I have to reschedule my appointment. It takes at least an hour to travel to Hogsmeade via the witch's tunnel. The Shrieking Shack tunnel can't be too much shorter. If Snape brought Lupin the potion because time was running out, then he may have realized that without a time turner, it was going to be too late for the potion to work by the time he caught up with Lupin, even if the transformation itself was not yet due to occur. In an earlier post on this thread, Renee made the point that Hagrid and Lupin are explaining two events: Lupin's decision to resign, and Snape's leak of information about Lupin, and that the connection between them is not clear. Some are saying that Snape's announcement prevented Lupin from resigning with dignity, 'for personal reasons.' That assumes that everyone else in the know would have been willing to keep the secret from hostile parents. But although it isn't stated explicityly anywhere, Cornelius Fudge has to have been told that Lupin was a werewolf and was loose on the grounds. Do you think he wouldn't tell Umbridge first thing in the morning? If Snape hadn't leaked the information that morning, how long before Umbridge would have had it on the pages of the Daily Prophet ? WEREWOLF RAMPAGES AT HOGWARTS. WHY PARENTS WEREN'T TOLD. Fudge would have been happy enough to allow it--anything's better than MINISTRY FUBS IT--BLACK STILL AT LARGE. This way, by the time Umbridge puts her spin on it, it's old news. She's still able to use it, but at least she can't say there was a cover-up. Pippin From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat May 29 20:25:41 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 16:25:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shared core? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99749 | From: mooseming [mailto:jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com] | Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:18 AM | | [mooseming]: | I have a cannon question but its from a quote to do with the 4th movie | so hope this doesn't qualify as movie contamination! If so, apologies | in advance. [Lee]: No, it's also in the 4th book. :-) [mooseming]: | On Ceefax this morning Daniel Radcliffe (sp?) said he thought Harry | would die as he and Voldemort share the same core which you see in the | 4th movie. | | I cannot think what in book 4 would equate to this observation, does | anyone have any ideas? [Lee]: Going back to book 1, Olivander tells Harry that the phoenix which gave the feather in Harry's wand had given only one other...and that was to the wand that had given Harry the scar. "We can expect great things from you, Mr. Potter. After all, he who must not be named did great things. Terrible, yes...but great." (And I apologize if my memory for that quote isn't exact, but you get the idea, and it's from the US Audio Book.) Now, in book 4, Dumbledor explains that the wands (Harry's and LV's) share a core and it comes out that Fawkes is the phoenix which gave feathers for both wands. And, the explanation of how "brother" wands would react to each other which was how Harry was able to do a "Prior Incantato." Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Sat May 29 21:31:47 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 21:31:47 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99750 << speculation that she was talking about GOF rather than Book 6 and > that it was misinterpreted by Cuaron but I have misgivings about that > theory...>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > Here's some support for the misinterpretation theory, which can also > be used to obfuscate any supposed clue in the PoA movie, from TLC's > report on the cast and crew screening in London: > > "He also thanked the cast and crew for not speaking Spanish, because, > as he explained it, when he had an idea on set and tried to > communicate that idea, he usually failed verbally - which he said > worked out, because what everyone thought he said worked out a lot > better than what he actually said." > > --JDR Antosha: Here's another quote--this one from JKR herself: >Harry Potter author J.K. Rowling says that Alfonso Cuaron, who directed The Prisoner of >Azkaban, which opens next Friday, inadvertently foreshadowed events that will happen in >books six and seven, which she has yet to complete. >The last book published was the fifth book in the series, Harry Potter and the Order of the >Phoenix. The first two movies based on the Potter books were blockbusters. >"I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I thought, people are >going to look back on the film and think that those were put in deliberately as clues," >Rowling says in an interview released by Warner Bros., which is distributing the movie. You can find the bulk of this interview here: http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/ 2004-05-27-potter-movie-book_x.htm It seems this leads credence to Cuaran's having included some pre-spoiler images.... From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Sat May 29 22:30:43 2004 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (Olivier Fouquet) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 00:30:43 +0200 Subject: Snape's to blame (WAS Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99751 Renee: What I don't understand is why Snape didn't bring the potion along when he discovered Lupin had left his office and was running towards the Shrieking Shack. He's a wizard. Surely he can find a way to carry the cup without spilling the contents? Pippin argues ever so vehemently and persuasively that Snape is the good guy and Lupin ever so evil. snip snip Now Olivier For once, I won't try to defend Lupin, the poor werewolf has already enough on his shoulder with this new revelation that he thought Lily was a kind woman. No, I want to step up in the Snape debate. I think it is impossible to state that Snape's behavior the night of the Shrieking Shack is sensible. I'm not saying Lupin, Black or Harry are better, I'm just concentrating on Snape's role. Snape is a teacher at Hogwarts and a Head of House. His first and foremost duty is too protect students from harm, whatever the circumstances. I won't try to assess if Snape genuinely thought Black was a Death Eater and Lupin is all-time allied, but when he arrived in the Shrieking Shack, he knew one thing, Lupin had not taken his medication and was potentially going to transform any moment. Three third years, one already injured are stuck in the same room with Lupin and an alleged murderer. Snape should have acted as quickly and forcefully as possible to neutralize the two potential threats and get HRH out as quickly as he could. Far from doing that, he took the time to tease and mock his old rivals and his least favorites students. I expect Pippin will argue that everything I wrote about Snape is true about Lupin: he knew he was going to transform and did nothing to protect HRH, thereby exposing them to great dangers and well deserving his resignation. But I see nothing Lupin has done that night that Snape hasn't done. So if the scene is to be hold against Lupin as a proof of his failure to link his actions with their consequences, the same rationale should be used against Snape. Lupin at least did resign. Guess I ended defending Lupin in the end anyway. Olivier, glad to see PoA in 4 days [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat May 29 22:33:27 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 22:33:27 -0000 Subject: Why did James/Sirius believe Peter, not Remus? (Re: Lupin's resignation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99752 Jen: > But that same idea leads me to wonder--does JKR want the reader to > make the same mistake Sirius & James made when they suspected Lupin > of being the spy in the First War? Did they *also* see Lupin's > cowardice, his difficulty standing up to his friends and his > ommissions as proof that he was ESE & in-league with Voldemort? Will > Harry also do this before discovering the truth? > > I would find that a *much* more interesting and enlightening point > for JKR to make--see how easy it is to turn your back on a friend in > a climate of fear and hatred? See how easy it is to let subtle > prejudices that were buried during the good times, come out when the > going gets tough? Now that would really follow JKR's dictum of > choice and choosing between what is right and what is easy! Jen: Hehe--replying to my own post, but it was buried in another thread & I'm very curious to get feedback. We can only speculate why James/Sirius chose to believe Peter was clean and Lupin the spy. Nonetheless it was a big mistake with tragic results. I've always assumed Lupin did something suspicious to earn their distrust, but now I wonder if it was simply who he was--a half-blood and a werewolf. Maybe in the end it was just easier to believe Peter, the seemingly insignificant wizard from a pureblood family like themselves, than Remus with his dark side and bleak future--who better to turn to Voldemort than the man with nothing to lose? From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Sat May 29 23:01:55 2004 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 23:01:55 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99753 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Renee: > > > > What I don't understand is why Snape didn't bring the potion > along when he discovered Lupin had left his office and was > running towards the Shrieking Shack. He's a wizard. Surely he > can find a way to carry the cup without spilling the contents? > > > > Pippin: > Lupin tells us that as long as he takes the potion in the week > before he transforms, he's safe, but we don't know if he can take > it any time up until the transformation. > > For instance, I have a medication I'm supposed to take a half an > hour before I visit the dentist. If I forget to take it till I get > there, then I have to reschedule my appointment. > > It takes at least an hour to travel to Hogsmeade via the witch's > tunnel. The Shrieking Shack tunnel can't be too much shorter. If > Snape brought Lupin the potion because time was running out, > then he may have realized that without a time turner, it was going > to be too late for the potion to work by the time he caught up with > Lupin, even if the transformation itself was not yet due to occur. Renee: In that case, Snape was apparently on the late side, bringing the potion. But that night of all nights, Lupin couldn't wait. He'd just seen both Sirius and Wormtail appear on the map, he'd seen Sirius pull Ron and Wormtail into the Whomping Willow, he knew Harry and Hermione were there as well and probably wouldn't leave Ron to his fate - so can it really be labeled 'forgetfulness' if he decided to make a dash for it to try and prevent a catastrophe, as he saw it? What would we be saying if we heard he'd just sat back and waited for Snape to show up with the potion at last? Yet he doesn't use the urgency of the moment or his own emotional turmoil to excuse himself when he explains to Harry why he has resigned. He knows too well that for a werewolf such mitigating circumstances don't apply - and can't apply. At first sight, this doesn't seem fair. But what he ultimately pays for isn't his failure to take the last dose of wolfsbane potion, but his failure to tell Dumbledore about Padfoot. In a roundabout way, justice is being done here in a way that brings his humanity and his responsibility as a human being into play. It looks as if it's the werewolf who has to resign, but ultimately it's the man Remus Lupin who faces the consequences of his failure. Pippin: > In an earlier post on this thread, Renee made the point that > Hagrid and Lupin are explaining two events: Lupin's decision to > resign, and Snape's leak of information about Lupin, and that the > connection between them is not clear. Renee: That's not quite the point I made (or tried to make). I reacted to the suggestion that Lupin seems to give two different explanations for his resignation by pointing out that we get two different explanations (from two different people) for two different things here. I never said they were unconnected. To me, it's obvious that they are. Pippin: > Some are saying that Snape's announcement prevented Lupin > from resigning with dignity, 'for personal reasons.' > > That assumes that everyone else in the know would have > been willing to keep the secret from hostile parents. But > although it isn't stated explicityly anywhere, Cornelius Fudge has > to have been told that Lupin was a werewolf and was loose on > the grounds. Do you think he wouldn't tell Umbridge first thing in > the morning? Renee: If Fudge had known Lupin was loose on the grounds, it wouldn't have been necessary for Snape to let the secret slip in the first place, because he could count on it that it would be in the Daily Prophet soon. And the only one who may have felt inclined to inform Fudge *was* Snape, but this would incriminate Dumbledore (who had employed the werewolf), and I don't think Snape is in a position to do so. Nor am I sure he wants to. Getting back at Lupin, though, is a different thing. Renee From kathryn-jones at comcast.net Sat May 29 23:39:17 2004 From: kathryn-jones at comcast.net (jmjklj) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 23:39:17 -0000 Subject: "foreshadowing" Harry suffering? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99754 In reference to Ms. Rowling's quote this week of unintentional "foreshadowing" of events to come in books 6 and 7 in the new film, and then viewing a clip at: http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&id=1808404334&cf=trailer I wonder if the "foreshadowing" is that Harry is: "going to suffer, but he'll be happy about it". Something to think about. -Kathryn (who deep down has always had dread regarding the end of book seven) From dk59us at yahoo.com Sat May 29 23:59:55 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 23:59:55 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99755 Melissa wrote: >Someone asked why would J/L have been buried at Hogwarts I want to know >why they wouldn't have been? > > Melissa Eustace_Scrubb: I agree yours is a good question. For one thing, if the Potters left no living relatives save Harry, Petunia and Dudley, who would have been in charge of funeral arrangements? Of their close friends, Sirius and Peter were gone as well within 24 hours or so. My guess would be that Dumbledore would have filled the role. But as long as we're speculating as to who else might be in a Hogwarts graveyard, I'll throw in Harry's paternal grandparents as a possibility, too. We know they died sometime between James' completion of Hogwarts and James' death, which was only a few years. In the World Bookday chat, JKR said we'd find out a bit more about Harry's grandparents, although they wouldn't be very important. Regards, Eustace_Scrubb From ekrbdg at msn.com Sun May 30 02:26:06 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 22:26:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book 7 predictions References: <40B1C00F.6020004@tds.net> Message-ID: <036601c445ed$77a84a60$78e4f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 99756 *squeakinby wrote* > Book 1 first chapter--The Boy Who Lived > > Book 7--last chapter--The Boy Who Died > > *Kimberly's comment* Well, if we're going for contrast from beginning to end, how about, Book 1 first chapter- The Boy Who Lived Book 7 last chapter- The Dark Lord Who Died Much more appealing ending, IMO. As for the final sentence, there are far too many variables for me to speculate. Kimberly --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.691 / Virus Database: 452 - Release Date: 5/26/2004 From ekrbdg at msn.com Sun May 30 02:45:03 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 22:45:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts References: Message-ID: <03c001c445f0$1fdc10c0$78e4f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 99757 > Earendil: I can think of no reason why they would have been > buried at Hogwarts (unless it has some unknown obscure property). If > anyone can explain why they would have been buried *specifically* at > Hogwarts and not somewhere else, please share! > > OTOH, I could picture the founders being buried there... *That* > would make sense... > > Earendil > *Kimberly's comment* I think that Harry is a descendent of Godric Gryffindor. The comment that DD makes in reference to Harry pulling GG's sword out of the Sorting Hat seems a little bit more than just stating Harry's a true Gryffindor house member. I took it as being a TRUE Gryffindor. Perhaps the founders and their descendents are there.... if this is true then it's likely we'll see his parents there as well. That is IF Cuaron recollected correctly and the graveyard is in 6 or 7 and not the one already written about in 4. Kimberly --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.691 / Virus Database: 452 - Release Date: 5/26/2004 From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat May 29 21:44:46 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 17:44:46 -0400 Subject: Willow, Cat, Dog & Ramblings (was RE: Re: What about the Door? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99758 | From: potioncat [mailto:willsonkmom at msn.com] | Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 7:33 AM | Boy, it's hard to keep things together when you aren't very visual! | I always thought the tree was inside the castle walls. But as it is | described in CoS, it isn't. Does anyone know if Jo herself ever | published a drawing of the castle? The only castle I've ever been to | is the one in North Carolina...(good laugh by one and all.) But I've | been picturing something similar to the model my daughter made in 6th | grade. [Lee]: Well, I'm not one for visual...especially since I don't have any. (Seriously!) But the way I interpreted things in COS, the car did get over the wall and landed in the willow, so the willow was in the grounds, probably more at the edge thereof. As far as Sirius knowing other tunnels into the castle, since he was one of those who put together the Marauders' Map, surely he would have known about the tunnel from Honeydukes to the hump-backed witch in the castle. Of course, using that one would have been, probably, prohibitive. It's obvious Crookshanks was helping Sirius/Doggie all the way once Doggie had communicated his need/goal/whatever. Point: There are a couple of places in COS where Harry sees Crookshanks on the grounds, once with Sirius/Doggie. So, how did Crookshanks get out of Gryffindor Tower without Hermione knowing or being with her? I can only speculate that Sirius/Doggie got in with the help of Crookshanks, got to the Tower, assumed his normal form to give the password which Crookshanks had appropriated for him...Etc., Etc. Does any of this make sense, or have I been confunded? :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat May 29 22:09:39 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 18:09:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Does JKR sees ambition as a flaw? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99759 Wanda writes: | Based just on the HP books, I think it DOES look as if JKR | disapprove of ambition, except in certain cases. I know Harry is | supposed to be ambitious, but I can't say I've seen much evidence of | it. An ambitious person tends to have long-term plans, and Harry | has few, if any. Oh yes, he now has this idea of being an auror, | but that seems a bit half-hearted to me. He isn't burning with | passion for the idea - it was suggested to him by (fake) Moody in | GoF, and he just latched onto it, almost for lack of anything else. [Lee]: Yes, the idea was suggested by Fake Moody, but I have to think he said he wanted to be an auror to really stick a needle in Nasty Umbridge. :-) Of course, the last thing in the universe Umbridge would want is for this "liar" to be an auror; he would probably upset the status quo...which, in the final analysis, he did end up doing. Lee :-) (Who would have dearly loved to hear the unearthly crash of all those shelves and prophecy balls.) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From c_robocker at yahoo.com Sun May 30 00:15:19 2004 From: c_robocker at yahoo.com (c_robocker) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 00:15:19 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99760 Antosha wrote: > Here's another quote--this one from JKR herself: > >Harry Potter author J.K. Rowling says that Alfonso Cuaron, who > >directed The Prisoner of Azkaban, which opens next Friday, > >inadvertently foreshadowed events that will happen in > >books six and seven, which she has yet to complete. > > >"I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those things, > >and I thought, people are going to look back on the film and > >think that those were put in deliberately as clues," Rowling > >says in an interview released by Warner Bros., which is > >distributing the movie. > > You can find the bulk of this interview here: > http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2004-05-27-potter-movie-book_x.htm > > It seems this leads credence to Cuaran's having included some pre- > spoiler images.... CRobo writes: You may all point and laugh at me if, when book 6 comes out, there is a climactic scene as the sun sets at a graveyard at Hogwarts. However, JKR's comment above would mean to me that the graveyard is not a clue since it is *not* in the movie. CRobo, who has enjoyed reading the posts of possibilities. From toptopera at yahoo.com.br Sun May 30 02:26:48 2004 From: toptopera at yahoo.com.br (toptopera) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 02:26:48 -0000 Subject: Shipping in GoF, Important or Not? In-Reply-To: <1477797164.20040529113501@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99761 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > My impression for the "wrong pairings" were: > > Harry/Cho > Hermione/Krum > Ron/Fleur > > I also think JKR used the term "love" rather loosely in this > context (didn't she say: Everyone is in love with the wrong > people?) > I agree with Harry/Cho and Hermione/Krum, because, in both cases, there is at least a failed(?) attempt at romance, not only in GoF, but also in OoTP. But, Ron/Fleur? I'm sorry if I missed some part of the book, but all I did see was a veela/very pretty woman and a teenager feeling atracted to her. It was more of a one-sided thing, and I wouldn't name it 'love'. If you look closely, Cho goes looking for Harry many times, and also Krum calls Hermione to the Yule Ball and keeps a correspondence later, while Fleur (if I remember correctly) never shoots a second glance in Ron's direction, except, maybe, for -one- smile at the ending of the book. Don't misunderstand me, I don't think Ron/Hermione is doomed (even because these very arguments deny a Ron/Hermione wrong thing in the book), just that the Ron/Fleur pairing never actually existed, and then cannot be matched with the other two 'wrong' ones. -toptopera From mnaperrone at aol.com Sun May 30 02:51:00 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 02:51:00 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99762 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dobbyisdumbledore" wrote: > > > > I'm usually very good at speculating and fantasizing reasons for > > various details, but I'm stumped as to why Hogwart's graveyard could > > be significant. If it were just an insignificant detail like the > > location of the Hogwart's gardens and cabbage patch, why would JKR > > care where the director put it? If it is truly significant, then how > > could it possibly fit into the story? > > > > just curious. Ally: I don't recall there ever being a mention of a graveyard at Hogwarts in any of the books, am I wrong? Maybe the whole reason she didn't want him to put a graveyard in is because there isn't one at Hogwart's but something is going to happen in the near future that will lead them to establish one there. For instance, as much as DD represents the school, if he were to die, I could see the staff burying him there. Maybe if there's a huge battle there, they will bury the victims at Hogwarts? From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun May 30 03:29:44 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 23:29:44 -0400 Subject: Dumbledor's Part (was RE: Re: What about the Door?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99763 I can't help but allude back to Book 1, "The Mirror Of Erised," where Dumbledore startles Harry with his presence while Harry is looking into the mirror. Dumbledore indicates that one doesn't necessarily need a cloak to be invisible. Okay, so, hypothesize that Dumbledore knows a lot more than he often lets on; he knew what was going on; he might even be watching to make sure things don't get too out of hand using his invisibility trick, whatever that may be. Now, here's the wild thought: He knew about the incident with Snape in the tunnel; he might have seen James pulling Snape back...who knows. I want to think that, if things had gotten really out of control, Dd would have intervened. Okay, time to turn off my twisted brain for the night...it's early up in the a.m. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun May 30 04:21:55 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 00:21:55 -0400 Subject: Priori Incamtatum Goof? (was Re: Lupin Loved Lily) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99764 | From: earendil_fr [mailto:viviane at lestic.com] | Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 8:26 AM | | Earendil, who never ever considered the voice Harry hears could be | other than James' before joining this group. Me either! And a lot of really good speculations have been put on this subject. Now, if James wasn't the voice that Harry heard, and if James was indeed killed before G.H., that would definitely explain the supposed goof in GOF of Lilly appearing first in the Priori, then James. I know there's ref to this "goof" as an actual error, but... And, even if we were to toss all this out, I still got the impression that James would have had to be killed first, then Lilly trying to protect Harry...all this for the perhaps too simple reason that when LV tried to AK Harry, he turned into Vapormort which means he could not have possibly done anything to James after that. Which brings me back to the order in which the ghost-figures appeared in the priori. I guess I am just too dense to see where the goof was and have to reread GOF...again. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun May 30 05:01:49 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 01:01:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99765 | From: naamagatus [mailto:naama_gat at hotmail.com] | Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 12:48 PM | James' "echo" emerged from Voldemort's wand at the graveyard. So, | certainly James is dead, and at Volemort's hand. Since (according to | the corrected version) James emerges before Lily, we also certainly | know that he was killed before she was. [Lee] And that's where I have my problem. If the priori is the most recent first, the appearance of Cedric, Frank Brice and then Bertha are in the correct sequence. But then, indeed, Lilly should come next, then James. Reason: LV would have had to kill James first, then Lilly who died protecting Harry, then LV tried to AK Harry which did LV in. So, I just don't see how this sequence of Lilly appearing and then James can be an error. Am I so dense?? Cheers, Lee :-) (Who really should be sleeping, not reading!) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From siskiou at vcem.com Sun May 30 05:48:14 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 22:48:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shipping in GoF, Important or Not? In-Reply-To: References: <1477797164.20040529113501@vcem.com> Message-ID: <1468432358.20040529224814@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99766 Hi, Saturday, May 29, 2004, 7:26:48 PM, toptopera wrote: > Don't misunderstand me, I don't think Ron/Hermione is doomed (even > because these very arguments deny a Ron/Hermione wrong thing in the > book), just that the Ron/Fleur pairing never actually existed, and > then cannot be matched with the other two 'wrong' ones. I did say that I thought JKR used the term "love" very loosely, here. :) Apart from Krum, all of the people involved are young teenagers, so I doubt any of the trio was supposed to be truly in love at this point. But there was a definite attraction to Fleur from Ron's side, veela or not, and Hermione reacted strongly when Fleur kissed Ron after the second task and smiled at him at the end. And he asked Fleur to the ball, though she obviously didn't even consider him a choice. Also, I don't believe Hermione was at all in love with Krum, and see this relationship as very one-sided, too. Yes, Hermione accepted his invitation to the Yule Ball, but otherwise it was mainly Krum pushing for more, with Hermione trying to keep things to friendship. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sun May 30 06:13:07 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 02:13:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts Message-ID: <1e5.21ad3e1c.2dead573@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99767 In a message dated 05/30/2004 12:54:38 AM Central Daylight Time, n2fgc at arrl.net writes: > And that's where I have my problem. If the priori is the most recent > first, > the appearance of Cedric, Frank Brice and then Bertha are in the correct > sequence. But then, indeed, Lilly should come next, then James. > > Reason: LV would have had to kill James first, then Lilly who died > protecting Harry, then LV tried to AK Harry which did LV in. > > So, I just don't see how this sequence of Lilly appearing and then James can > be an error. Am I so dense?? > > Cheers, > > No you're not dense. In the original printing of the book JKR made a mistake and had James appearing before Lily, (Cedric, Frank, Bertha, James, Lily . .ect) subsequent printings corrected this error. (Cerdic, Frank, Bertha, Lily, James . .ect). I think that the previous poster (naama) simply mistyped the order in her post and that she meant to say Lily emerged first. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sun May 30 06:22:26 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 02:22:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99768 In a message dated 05/29/2004 9:43:34 PM Central Daylight Time, ekrbdg at msn.com writes: > . That is IF Cuaron recollected correctly and > the graveyard is in 6 or 7 and not the one already written about in 4. > > Kimberly > Oh I think he remembered correctly. In his line of work attention to detail is very important so I think he knows exactly what she said. IMO his recollection of her comment is way to precise to be a generalization: why couldn't he use a graveyard in that scene; because the graveyard at Hogwarts is located somewhere else. Direct and to the point. If he had recalled her saying "oh well because a graveyard plays a big part in another book" THEN I could see it meaning book 4. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Sun May 30 06:46:47 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 06:46:47 -0000 Subject: ... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99769 > Sorry, Black deserved whatever the worst punishment available at the > time was. Apologists, take Snape completely out of the picture and > consider the consequences to *Lupin* if this 'prank' had gone > further. > > Mel Finally someone brought up a point that's been bothering me ever since the discussion on the ML began. Why doesn't anyone think of what Sirius' "joke" would've done to Lupin had James not interfered. I bet Sirius didn't think about it. I bet he had all the excuses, "Snape is probably too cowardly to go," "He'll turn back," "He'll run as soon as he hears the most muted howl." But what if? I for one, have little doubt that James put a stop to it more out of concern for Remus than anything else. Alina. From technomad at intergate.com Sun May 30 07:05:49 2004 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 02:05:49 -0500 Subject: Myrtle in the cold, cold ground... Message-ID: <003e01c44614$8a7c2ae0$61570043@intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99770 ISTR that in Riddle's memory, Dippet mentioned that Myrtle's parents were coming to H'warts the next day, presumably to collect their daughter's corpse. I would guess that she'd be buried somewhere near their home, unless there is Wizard Law to the contrary. Come to it, we really know very little about Moaning Myrtle, even so much as her last name or whether or not she was _really_ a Muggle-born. Draco Malfoy said she was, but I don't exactly consider him a bubbling fountain of Utter Truth. AFAWK, her death was more-or-less an accident---Young Tom Riddle had neglected to make _sure_ the coast was clear in the girls' bathroom before accessing the Chamber and letting loose the basilisk. It could literally have been anybody---a teacher, a pureblood student, a Muggle-born, or what-have-you. About all that was certain was that any victim(s) would be female. _Perhaps_ if Harry or _someone_ took enough interest in Myrtle to _ask her her last name_ and whether or not her parents were magical, she might not be quite so unhappy. This sounds like a job for Studious!Hermione---or maybe Harry could get his head on straight enough to ask some questions. And, come to it---we know _nothing_ about Wizard World burial customs, don't we? I'd not be surprised if they cremated---we know for sure that people---like, say, a certain inept Dark Lord we all know and, er, know---can do Bad Things with unprotected corpses and parts thereof. --Eric, who thinks that if he were a ghost he'd be known as Never-Gets-Out-Of-The-Library Eric. (Hey, it beats Nearly-Headless Nick!) From technomad at intergate.com Sun May 30 07:17:35 2004 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 02:17:35 -0500 Subject: A thought about Petunia's behavior... Message-ID: <004401c44616$2ed74060$61570043@intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99771 I was on a longish car trip recently, and while driving, I thought about many things---including the Potterverse. An idea hit me about Petunia that I thought made a certain amount of sense, and I thought I'd put it out here on the list and see what happened. Could Petunia (and Lily) have grown up in moderate-to-severe poverty? If so, it would explain both her determination to shower her Dudders with Everything He Wants, and her resentment of Lily, particularly if buying Lily's magical supplies bit into money that she felt should have gone to her needs instead. About the only piece of magical equipment we have any idea of the costs of is the wand, and that's just one of a bunch of things the beginning witch or wizard will need---if spellbooks are anything like Muggle college texts, they'll cost a lot and may not be easily resalable after use; robes, a hat or two, a cauldron, and so on---all of it would cost money, and AFAWK H'warts doesn't seem to have any provisions for aid to poor students. If poor Petunia felt that not only was Lily's _special_ education gobbling money that she could have used herself, but that she was being overshadowed by Lily, and that her parents favored Lily over her _because she was a witch,_ that would be enough to set off a resentment that would not easily die. Comments? --Eric, no stranger to long-lasting resentments himself From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 30 07:23:17 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 08:23:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shipping in GoF, Important or Not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040530072317.16933.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99772 toptopera wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > My impression for the "wrong pairings" were: > > Harry/Cho > Hermione/Krum > Ron/Fleur > > I also think JKR used the term "love" rather loosely in this > context (didn't she say: Everyone is in love with the wrong > people?) > -toptopera said I agree with Harry/Cho and Hermione/Krum, because, in both cases, there is at least a failed(?) attempt at romance, not only in GoF, but also in OoTP. But, Ron/Fleur? I'm sorry if I missed some part of the book, but all I did see was a veela/very pretty woman and a teenager feeling atracted to her. Now UdderPD IMHO the only relationship that counts in the Books is Harry's with whoever. The only two girls that can support him in his quest to overcome Voldermort are Hermione and Ginny and my leaning, at this time, is mainly towards Hermione. She is a very powerful witch both magicly and mentally both things will be needed to support Harry in his endevour. By the end of book six Ginny may possibly become strong enough to support him, she is fairly powerful now and will no doubt become stronger. This is just my opinion. Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Sun May 30 07:23:47 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (arealin) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 07:23:47 -0000 Subject: Priori Incamtatum Goof? (was Re: Lupin Loved Lily) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99773 > Which brings me back to the order in which the ghost-figures appeared in the > priori. I guess I am just too dense to see where the goof was and have to > reread GOF...again. > > Cheers, > > Lee :-) The goof was that the spells appear from the wand in the order last to first. So since James was killed first and Lily second, then Lily's ghost would appear from the wand first and James' second. But in the earlier editions, James comes out first and says "Your mother is coming." By the way, does anyone know how exactly this was corrected in later editions? What did Lily say when she appeared first? Alina. From viviane at lestic.com Sun May 30 07:29:48 2004 From: viviane at lestic.com (earendil_fr) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 07:29:48 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > Melissa wrote: > >Someone asked why would J/L have been buried at Hogwarts I want to > know > >why they wouldn't have been? > > > > Melissa > > Eustace_Scrubb: > I agree yours is a good question. For one thing, if the Potters left > no living relatives save Harry, Petunia and Dudley, who would have > been in charge of funeral arrangements? Of their close friends, > Sirius and Peter were gone as well within 24 hours or so. My guess > would be that Dumbledore would have filled the role. Earendil: I'm the one who asked in another post why J/L would have been buried at Hogwarts. (maybe someone else asked though) Anyway, I was about to reply to Melissa something along the lines of 'well, why not somewhere else?', giving GH as an example, or a possible Potter family shrine somewhere in England, or a birthplace, etc... and saying that what I was wondering was why they would *have* to be buried at Hogwarts specifically and not some other place. And then I read your post. I think you have a point. With no living relatives, taking care of funeral arrangements would be a problem, and it would explain a burial at Hogwarts if DD had filled the role. However, you forgot Lupin among the close friends... He could have taken care of funeral arrangements, that was the least he could do for his friends... BTW, do we know if Pettigrew's finger was buried after it was given to his mother? Or where it was buried? It would be quite logical for Peter to be buried next to the two friends he (supposedly) died for... Earendil From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 30 07:46:27 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 08:46:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Priori Incamtatum Goof? (was Re: Lupin Loved Lily) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040530074627.76625.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99775 arealin wrote: > Which brings me back to the order in which the ghost-figures appeared in the > priori. I guess I am just too dense to see where the goof was and have to > reread GOF...again. > > Cheers, > > Lee :-) The goof was that the spells appear from the wand in the order last to first. So since James was killed first and Lily second, then Lily's ghost would appear from the wand first and James' second. But in the earlier editions, James comes out first and says "Your mother is coming." By the way, does anyone know how exactly this was corrected in later editions? What did Lily say when she appeared first? Alina. Now UdderPD Lilly said I quote ... and Harry, his arms shaking madlynow, looked back into the face of his mother. "Your father's coming ..." she said quietly. "He wants to see you ... it will be alright ... hold on..." And he came ... So that is what Lilly says Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sun May 30 07:56:40 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 03:56:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts Message-ID: <12c.4303feb9.2deaedb8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99776 In a message dated 05/30/2004 2:30:22 AM Central Daylight Time, viviane at lestic.com writes: > And then I read your post. I think you have a point. With no living > relatives, taking care of funeral arrangements would be a problem, > and it would explain a burial at Hogwarts if DD had filled the role. > However, you forgot Lupin among the close friends... He could have > taken care of funeral arrangements, that was the least he could do > for his friends... > As I recall all werewolves were under suspicion of working with the Deatheaters. In fact werewolves were/are regarded by most as being unsavory characters in general so it might not have been possible for Lupin to have made the arrangements even if he had wanted to do so. Also funerals can be expensive (at least Muggle ones are) and Lupin might not have had the funds to arrange for one. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun May 30 09:59:34 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 09:59:34 -0000 Subject: New Clue - (Celtic ?) Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: >>But as long as we're speculating as to who else might be in a Hogwarts graveyard, I'll throw in Harry's paternal grandparents as a possibility, too. We know they died sometime between James' completion of Hogwarts and James' death, which was only a few years. In the World Bookday chat, JKR said we'd find out a bit more about Harry's grandparents, although they wouldn't be very important. > Carolyn: I am surprised no one has picked up on the other interesting tidbit in the article - that Hogwarts is apparently located on a Celtic site (see my post 99679). I have dug around in the Lexicon, but can't find any confirmation of this, maybe someone knows if it is in any of JKR's past interviews ? Anyway, when I saw it, I went to search for Celtic sites in Britain to see if it had any implications, and I found this link: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/arthur.html This article examines the origins of the Arthur legend, Celtic mythology generally, and non-Welsh Celtic sites. If the Potter family (male line) are in some way connected with Godric Gryffindor, as is often supposed, and Godric is representative of a Celtic hero, it could be logical that the Potter grandparents, and James & Lily, are buried at Hogwarts if it is an ancient Celtic burial ground. (Ie, they don't need to have been buried in Wales, *if* that is/was where Godric's Hollow is located - and perhaps it is actually somewhere near Hogwarts ?). Pursuing the Celtic link, is the 'sleeping dragon' in the school crest in fact a metaphor for a sleeping hero of old (in the graveyard), that it would be really unwise to tickle, and who will arise again in some time of crisis? From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun May 30 12:07:22 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 12:07:22 -0000 Subject: Myrtle in the cold, cold ground... In-Reply-To: <003e01c44614$8a7c2ae0$61570043@intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > ISTR that in Riddle's memory, Dippet mentioned that Myrtle's parents were > coming to H'warts the next day, presumably to collect their daughter's > corpse. I would guess that she'd be buried somewhere near their home, > unless there is Wizard Law to the contrary. > > Come to it, we really know very little about Moaning Myrtle, even so much as > her last name or whether or not she was _really_ a Muggle-born. It just occurred to me, if Myrtle's parents WERE Muggles, *could* they come to Hogwarts to collect her body? Hermione says that Hogwarts is protected by charms to make it look like an abandoned old ruin to any Muggle who comes around. In special cases, could those charms be lifted to permit access to a Muggle? We've seen Hermione's parents at Diagon Alley, so some wizarding locations are accessible to Muggles, but what would happen if they wanted to come to Hogwarts? I wonder, has any Muggle ever come to Hogwarts? Wanda From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 30 12:16:28 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 12:16:28 -0000 Subject: Does JKR sees ambition as a flaw? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99779 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barb Roberts wrote: > Alla: > > > Could someone give me any ideas why. I alsor ead somewhere, maybe > > even on this lists that for many Brits ambition is not considered to > > be a virtue. Is it true? > > > Barbara wrote: > I'm not British, but I don't think pure ambition is considered a > virtue many Americans either. Is one of those words that can mean > something good, but usually doesn't. It's certainly not on any > traditional (Christian) list of virtues. Potioncat: Ambition is funny. Too much is shown as very bad...the drive to succeed makes the person choose "any means" On the other hand, it's not considered good to have "no ambition." and many a father might say that about a good for nothing son who doesn't want to work. "He doesn't have any ambition!" But the same is true of the other Houses' "qualities." Too much or too little are both bad. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 30 12:22:03 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 12:22:03 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99780 Jessica wrote: Snape was able to use the tunnel as a child and an adult, Lupin uses it as an adult, Harry, Hermione and Ron use it as well, so it must be big enough for at least an adult to use (although it may be cramped). > But I do think a stag would have a hard time using the tunnel if a > person had to bend over to use it :)) > > Although there is no proof against an enchantment to prevent > Transformed!Lupin from accessing the passageway. > Potioncat: The part that makes me think that the werewolf didn't normally get into the tunnel (without Marauders' help) was Lupin's comment that "had Snape gotten in the house, he would have met a full grown werewolf." (paraphrased) I think everyone except James could have used the tunnel, as an amimagus. Potioncat From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun May 30 12:28:25 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 08:28:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RE:... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness Message-ID: <1f1.21da1f8e.2deb2d69@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99781 In a message dated 5/30/2004 2:56:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, alina at distantplace.net writes: Finally someone brought up a point that's been bothering me ever since the discussion on the ML began. Why doesn't anyone think of what Sirius' "joke" would've done to Lupin had James not interfered. I bet Sirius didn't think about it. I bet he had all the excuses, "Snape is probably too cowardly to go," "He'll turn back," "He'll run as soon as he hears the most muted howl." But what if? I for one, have little doubt that James put a stop to it more out of concern for Remus than anything else. =============== Sherrie here: Thanks, Alina - I've thought this ever since I first read about that little fiasco under the Willow. Sirius not only put Severus in grave danger (literally), but he seemed to have no qualms about turning one of his best friends into a murderer - or a corpse. Think about it - James doesn't pull Severus back, and he gets into the Shack. He's confronted by Remus, in full wolf mode - what are the three possible scenarios? (A) Snape freezes, as Black claims he did - Lupin rips Snape limb from limb - thereby becoming a murderer. It's Azkaban for old Remus - or possibly death. (B) Snape DOESN'T freeze. This is a 16-year-old who, according to Black, knew more curses and hexes at 11 than most seventh years. Dead Remus - self-defense for Sev, and James and Sirius expelled and possibly incarcerated. (C) (Possibly the worst of all) Remus bites Sev, but doesn't kill him - and suddenly there's another werewolf at Hogwarts, one who is NOT friendly... In all cases, I don't think it would have been possible to keep it quiet - Dumbledore is removed for harboring a werewolf in the first place, endangering the lives of the students and faculty. Sirius is just plain self-centered - he never considers the consequences of his actions to those around him. Or maybe he does - and just doesn't care, which is worse yet. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 30 13:04:55 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 13:04:55 -0000 Subject: ... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99782 Alina wrote: > Finally someone brought up a point that's been bothering me ever > since the discussion on the ML began. Why doesn't anyone think of > what Sirius' "joke" would've done to Lupin had James not interfered. snip > Potioncat: In my mind, if the prank had ended only with Severus being frightened, Remus would still have been hurt. Because there was still a very big chance that Severus would have been announcing it all the way to DD's office. And at that point, Remus' life would be very different. The consequences to Snape being killed or bitten are even greater, to even more families. Potioncat From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun May 30 13:34:03 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 13:34:03 -0000 Subject: Myrtle in the cold, cold ground... In-Reply-To: <003e01c44614$8a7c2ae0$61570043@intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99783 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: snips > _Perhaps_ if Harry or _someone_ took enough interest in Myrtle to _ask her > her last name_ and whether or not her parents were magical, she might not be > quite so unhappy. > Meri adds: That's an interesting idea, though Myrtle does seem to be most flattered when people ask about her death, but she is certainly a valuable ally for HRH. She probably knows a good bit about the castle (at least the plumbing systems) which could be useful should the Last Great Battle take place at Hpgwarts. > This sounds like a job for Studious!Hermione---or maybe Harry could get his > head on straight enough to ask some questions. Meri: Don't you think asking Harry to get his head on straight is asking a bit much right now? But, then again, he did feel pity for Luna after finding out that some of his fellow students find it funny to take her things, so maybe pity is the one emotion that Harry is, at this point, capable of. > And, come to it---we know _nothing_ about Wizard World burial customs, don't > we? I'd not be surprised if they cremated---we know for sure that > people---like, say, a certain inept Dark Lord we all know and, er, > know---can do Bad Things with unprotected corpses and parts thereof. Meri: Ooooh, interesting...You mean like the Black Cauldron from Lloyd Alexander? That would be something else, wouldn't it? We don't know anything about how dementors get created or where they come from. Wandering, soulless, deathless corpses anyone? I really hope JKR explains that particular piece of cannon as well. > --Eric, who thinks that if he were a ghost he'd be known as > Never-Gets-Out-Of-The-Library Eric. (Hey, it beats Nearly- Headless Nick!) Meri - who were she a ghost may very well be haunting the library with you (Merely Reading Meri? Doesn't have the same ring to is as Sir Properly Decapitated Podmore, though does it?) From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 30 13:57:15 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 13:57:15 -0000 Subject: Snape's to blame (WAS Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99784 > Now Olivier > > For once, I won't try to defend Lupin, the poor werewolf has already enough on his shoulder with this new revelation that he thought Lily was a kind woman. No, I want to step up in the Snape debate. > > I think it is impossible to state that Snape's behavior the night of the Shrieking Shack is sensible. I'm not saying Lupin, Black or Harry are better, I'm just concentrating on Snape's role. > > Snape is a teacher at Hogwarts and a Head of House. His first and foremost duty is too protect students from harm, whatever the circumstances. Snape should have acted as quickly and forcefully as possible to neutralize the two potential threats and get HRH out as quickly as he could. Far from doing that, he took the time to tease and mock his old rivals and his least favorites students. > > I expect Pippin will argue that everything I wrote about Snape is true about Lupin: he knew he was going to transform and did nothing to protect HRH, thereby exposing them to great dangers and well deserving his resignation. But I see nothing Lupin has done that night that Snape hasn't done. So if the scene is to be hold against Lupin as a proof of his failure to link his actions with their consequences, the same rationale should be used against Snape. > > Lupin at least did resign. Pippin: Oh, Snape was an idiot. I'll grant you that. ESE!Lupin set a trap for him and he walked into it. Again. What did Snape tell Harry in OOP? "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily--weak people, in other words--they stand no chance against [the Dark Lord's] powers!" ESE!Lupin couldn't afford to have Sirius and Pettigrew questioned together--certainly not in front of a calm, rational, let's put two and two together Snape. But no matter. ESE!Lupin knew exactly what to say to get Snape to behave in a completely unreasonable fashion. Snape-baiting was his favorite spectator sport in the good old days, after all. He'd been trying all year to provoke Snape into a display of temper, what with the boggart and the Map, and in the Shack he finally managed it. Most gratifying. We don't know whether Snape offered to resign or not. But Lupin's is the only voluntary resignation Dumbledore has accepted. Why? Pippin who can't wait for the film either From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun May 30 14:16:22 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 14:16:22 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99785 Earendil wrote: And then I read your post. I think you have a point. With no living relatives, taking care of funeral arrangements would be a problem, and it would explain a burial at Hogwarts if DD had filled the role. However, you forgot Lupin among the close friends... He could have taken care of funeral arrangements, that was the least he could do for his friends... vmonte replies: What if DD wanted to protect their bodies. If a piece of a subject's hair is needed to make polyjuice potion, what else can be made with the bodies of the dead. Maybe, DD is taking care of their graves by ensuring that they aren't desecrated. (I know I'm morbid.) vmonte From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sun May 30 14:22:39 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 10:22:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Clue - (Celtic ?) Graveyard at Hogwarts Message-ID: <11a.32eea240.2deb482f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99786 In a message dated 05/30/2004 5:00:26 AM Central Daylight Time, carolynwhite2 at aol.com writes: > Carolyn: > I am surprised no one has picked up on the other interesting tidbit > in the article - that Hogwarts is apparently located on a Celtic site > (see my post 99679). I have dug around in the Lexicon, but can't find > any confirmation of this, maybe someone knows if it is in any of > JKR's past interviews ? > It was a part of the Newsround interview with Cuaron. After he relates th says the part about the graveyard and she tells him no, he then says: "So then you say 'What about a sundial?' She says: 'That makes perfect sense because when the castle was built it was on an ancient Celtic site.' Bap bap bap!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sun May 30 14:30:14 2004 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 14:30:14 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Old Man Who Runs the School Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99787 Man, it's been ages since I filked. I really missed it, but for some reason inspiration just wasn't striking until a couple of days ago, when I came up with this: The Old Man Who Runs the School to the tune of "The Old Man Down the Road" by John Fogerty He got a stash of lemon sherbets, He got a twinkle in his eye, He hire a lycanthrope to teach Defense, He make the Potions Master spy. Oh, what's he up to now? Oh, has he got a plan? Oh, can we really trust The old man who runs the school? He know that Voldemort is Riddle, He got a beard that's long and white, He got a robe all covered with suns and moons, He gonna lead the side of Light. Oh, what's he up to now? Oh, has he got a plan? Oh, can we really trust The old man who runs the school? He got the prophecies and secrets, He know who gonna rise or fall, Don't even think of being clever, 'Cos the old man knows it all. Oh, what's he up to now? Oh, has he got a plan? Oh, can we really trust The old man who runs the school? The old man who runs the school... The old man who runs the school... From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 30 14:59:21 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 14:59:21 -0000 Subject: ... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arealin" wrote: > Mel: > > Sorry, Black deserved whatever the worst punishment available at the time was. Apologists, take Snape completely out of the picture and consider the consequences to *Lupin* if this 'prank' had gone further.<< Alla: > Finally someone brought up a point that's been bothering me ever since the discussion on the ML began. Why doesn't anyone think of what Sirius' "joke" would've done to Lupin had James not interfered. < Pippin: All of them were already risking expulsion, Azkaban and possibly worse by arranging to enter Hogsmeade with a werewolf. They did it because the company of the Animagi was the only thing that made Lupin's transformations bearable. And because it would have been boring for them to stay in the Shack. Even if Snape died, they weren't risking any consequences they hadn't decided to face already--except to Snape of course. But there has to be more to it than Snape being told how to get in to the tunnel. Surely Snape left to his own devices would investigate the tunnel when Remus *wasn't* likely to be in it. Sirius, or somebody, had to arrange for Snape to enter at the proper time. And that just doesn't sound like Sirius. I can believe him capable of homicide--or a stupid joke--but premeditation is not his style. Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 30 15:03:09 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 30 May 2004 15:03:09 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1085929389.25.47468.m2@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99789 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, May 30, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 30 16:05:50 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 16:05:50 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99790 Pippin previously: In an earlier post on this thread, Renee made the point that Hagrid and Lupin are explaining two events: Lupin's decision to resign, and Snape's leak of information about Lupin, and that the connection between them is not clear. Renee: That's not quite the point I made (or tried to make). I reacted to the suggestion that Lupin seems to give two different explanations for his resignation by pointing out that we get two different explanations (from two different people) for two different things here. I never said they were unconnected. To me, it's obvious that they are. Pippin: Sorry to have misrepresented your thoughts. What I was getting at is that Hagrid's account says Lupin decided to resign "fir' thing this mornin'" because he had been loose on the grounds and "he can't risk it happenin' again."It sounds like Snape's leak is only what makes it possible for Hagrid to speak freely about it. It sounds like one of those things that is supposed to be a complete secret so naturally the whole school knows. But according to Lupin's account, Snape's revelation forced the issue of his resignation. Although he, Lupin, understands that the parents have a point and he mustn't ever endanger students again, he is resigning because those parents won't want a werewolf teaching their children. The implication is that Lupin feels he could have stayed on, being more careful about his potion in the future, if the parents hadn't found out. Pippin before: Some are saying that Snape's announcement prevented Lupin from resigning with dignity, 'for personal reasons.' That assumes that everyone else in the know would have been willing to keep the secret from hostile parents. But although it isn't stated explicitlyanywhere, Cornelius Fudge has to have been told that Lupin was a werewolf and was loose on the grounds. Do you think he wouldn't tell Umbridge first thing in the morning? Renee: If Fudge had known Lupin was loose on the grounds, it wouldn't have been necessary for Snape to let the secret slip in the first place, because he could count on it that it would be in the Daily Prophet soon. Pippin: Oops, my canon error. It *is* explicitly stated Dumbledore hired Remus with Fudge's permission. "They're aren't many who'd have let you hire werewolves" GoF ch 36. Fudge also knew that Remus had been out at the shack. "Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was trying to save your lives." PoA ch 22 As for why he told Fudge anything, Snape does not know where Lupin is when he comes to, and no one who does is in any condition to talk. It would have been criminally irresponsible for Snape not to report that Lupin hadn't taken his potion and might be loose on the castle grounds. I'm theorizing that Snape's motive for the leak at breakfast wasn't entirely spite but also damage control. Spin, if you will. You can imagine what Umbridge and Rita Skeeter would make of that night's doings. Umbridge would do everything in her power to make it hot for Dumbledore and divert attention from her boss. The consequences would have been far worse for Dumbledore and Remus than anything Snape could have said, especially if Rita could make it out that there'd been a cover-up. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 30 16:24:17 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 16:24:17 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99791 > vmonte replies: > > What if DD wanted to protect their bodies. If a piece of a subject's hair is needed to make polyjuice potion, what else can be made with the bodies of the dead. Maybe, DD is taking care of their graves by ensuring that they aren't desecrated. (I know I'm morbid.)< I think this is an excellent point, not morbid at all, except that black magic in general is morbid. The Hand of Glory, which appears in CoS, is made from the hand of a corpse. The body parts of magical creatures have powers after their deaths--dragon blood and heartstrings for example. Wizard graveyards probably have very powerful magical protections on them to keep Dark Wizards from harvesting the remains. Therefore the Trio could not make a casual visit as Cuaron would have had them do. Pippin From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun May 30 16:26:24 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 16:26:24 -0000 Subject: ... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99792 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > But there has to be more to it than Snape being told how to get in > to the tunnel. Surely Snape left to his own devices would > investigate the tunnel when Remus *wasn't* likely to be in it. > Sirius, or somebody, had to arrange for Snape to enter at the > proper time. And that just doesn't sound like Sirius. I can believe > him capable of homicide--or a stupid joke--but premeditation is > not his style. I agree premeditation, as in plotting Snape's murder over the course of several weeks is not his style, but luring Snape into the passageway 'on a whim' while knowing he was putting him in mortal danger most certianly *is* his style. This from JKR's most recent webchat: Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow? JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course. Yes, there's more. There's always more, but this is an *unusually clear* answer from Ms. Rowling. No 'um's or 'er's here. Sirius sent Snape into the willow because he hated him. You pointing out that PMWP were facing expulsion anyway puts and even more chilling face on the whole thing. 'Well we're getting chucked out anyway, might was well go out with a real bang!' Hey, what's one accidental murder when you're already going to be expelled for endangering an entire village? Mel From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 30 16:39:32 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 17:39:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] A thought about Petunia's behavior... In-Reply-To: <004401c44616$2ed74060$61570043@intergate.com> Message-ID: <20040530163932.89645.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99793 --Eric, said: Could Petunia (and Lily) have grown up in moderate-to-severe poverty? If so, it would explain both her determination to shower her Dudders with Everything He Wants, and her resentment of Lily, particularly if buying Lily's magical supplies bit into money that she felt should have gone to her needs instead. About the only piece of magical equipment we have any idea of the costs of is the wand, and that's just one of a bunch of things the beginning witch or wizard will need---if spellbooks are anything like Muggle college texts, they'll cost a lot and may not be easily resalable after use; robes, a hat or two, a cauldron, and so on---all of it would cost money, and AFAWK H'warts doesn't seem to have any provisions for aid to poor students. If poor Petunia felt that not only was Lily's _special_ education gobbling money that she could have used herself, but that she was being overshadowed by Lily, and that her parents favored Lily over her _because she was a witch,_ that would be enough to set off a resentment that would not easily die. Now UdderPD Although at first glance this looked quite reasonable, when I thought about it IMO Petunia would have included it in her rant at Harry and Hagrid in the hut on the island in HPatPS (book one). Still the idea has a certain merit and the chances are that JKR will never tell us either way. Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Sun May 30 17:44:48 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 17:44:48 -0000 Subject: New Clue - (Celtic ?) Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <11a.32eea240.2deb482f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > > It was a part of the Newsround interview with Cuaron. After he relates th > says the part about the graveyard and she tells him no, he then says: > > "So then you say 'What about a sundial?' She says: 'That makes perfect sense > because when the castle was built it was on an ancient Celtic site.' Bap bap > bap!" Lady McBeth: Hmm a sundial interesting . . . Here's what I found about the Celtic Sun God Lugh . . . You'll notice some interesting parallels! There is of course tons more mythology, however, I just wanted to relate the things that seem to be relevant. Lugh, whose name means "shining one," was a celtic sun god. He was handsome, perpetually youthful, and full of life and energy. This energy manifests itself especially in the number of skills he had, according to legend, mastered. He was the patron god of Lugdunum ,now Lyon According to a prophecy, the underworld god Balor, was to be killed by his grandson. He locked Ethlinn, his daughter, in a tower made of crystal to keep her from becoming pregnant. However, Cian, one of the Tuatha de Danaan, with the help of the druidess Birog, managed to enter the tower. She gave birth to a son, Lugh, by him, but Balor threw him into the ocean. Birog saved him and gave him to Manannan mac Lir, who became his foster father. Lugh was also sometimes considered a son of Danu and Beli. Lugh Lamhfada led the Tuatha in the Second Battle of Mag Tuireadh against the Fomorians. During this battle, Balor killed King Nuada, with his eye, but Lugh ripped the fatal eye out with a sling, killing Balor. Lugh was husband of Rosmerta. After the god Nuada lost an arm in the Second Battle of Magh Tuiredh and was forced to abdicate his kingship since he was no longer perfect, Lugh became the leader of the Tuatha De Danaan. Just as a note Nuada's arm was replaced with a silver one! Lugh's name is the origin of that of the Pagan festival Lughnasadh (which is also the Irish Gaelic name for the month of August). He was the father of Cuchulainn by Dechtere. I'm working on the importance of the sundial and locations in Celtic mythology, however, most of the info is Ireland related and I'm having a little trouble locating the Scottish stuff. (That's where WE'RE placing Hogwarts right . . . please correct me if I'm wrong so I can stop digging!) Lady McBeth, whose comparative religions major occasionally has some use From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Sun May 30 17:50:43 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 17:50:43 -0000 Subject: Celtic Backgroung (was New Clue - (Celtic ?) Graveyard at Hogwarts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99795 > > Lady McBeth: > Hmm a sundial interesting . . . Here's what I found about the > Celtic Sun God Lugh . . . You'll notice some interesting parallels! > There is of course tons more mythology, however, I just wanted to > relate the things that seem to be relevant. > > Lugh, whose name means "shining one," was a celtic sun god. He was > handsome, perpetually youthful, and full of life and energy. Responding to myself . . . sorry I don't know how I missed this the first time around: Lugh is represented by a white stag in Welsh mythology. He is also considered a protector of the weak and is known as a bridge between the earthly world and the gods (due to mixed parentage) From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun May 30 17:55:41 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 13:55:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Clue - (Celtic ?) Graveyard at Hogwarts Message-ID: <1d7.2288e79c.2deb7a1d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99796 In a message dated 5/30/2004 1:47:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mcdee1980 at yahoo.com writes: Lugh's name is the origin of that of the Pagan festival Lughnasadh (which is also the Irish Gaelic name for the month of August). =============== Sherrie here: Which, by Pagan tradition, actually begins on the evening BEFORE - i.e., 31 July. Now - where HAVE I heard that date mentioned before...? Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Sun May 30 05:53:20 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 05:53:20 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <03c001c445f0$1fdc10c0$78e4f943@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" wrote: > I think that Harry is a descendent of Godric Gryffindor. Perhaps the founders and > their descendents are there.... if this is true then it's likely we'll see > his parents there as well. (in the graveyard) I see, a family tomb or plot, could be. So far, nobody's wondered if we'd see Tom Riddle's mom or Grandpa Marvolo or who they were related to... aj From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Sun May 30 07:59:02 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 07:59:02 -0000 Subject: Shipping in GoF, Important or Not? In-Reply-To: <1468432358.20040529224814@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > Apart from Krum, all of the people involved are young > teenagers, so I doubt any of the trio was supposed to be truly in > love at this point. When I read JKR's comments in the past, coupled with the 'tell me my books aren't like real life!' after reading GOF, I always thought it was that everybody WENT TO THE BALL WITH someone they weren't interested in and spent the ball wondering about the person they liked better (or, if Hermione, covered it pretty well till after the ball). Interesting alternate speculations since on this board, though! aj From thekrenz at yahoo.com Sun May 30 13:41:21 2004 From: thekrenz at yahoo.com (thekrenz) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 13:41:21 -0000 Subject: Ghosts at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99799 As I was reading the posts regarding the possible graveyard at Hogwarts I saw a reference to Sir Nick's song on JKR's website. I reviewed his song, and a thought occured to me. Were the ghosts wizards when they lived? Surely Sir Nick was because he was executed for attempting to fix someone's teeth. And by the same token, were the people who arrested and imprisoned Sir Nick wizards? I do hope JKR will give us a little more background on the transparent residents of Hogwarts. Just a random thought. Any comments? Cyndi From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun May 30 13:45:19 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 06:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Sorting Hat (Was: The permanent problem with Slytherin House) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040530134519.1093.qmail@web50102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99800 Lady Macbeth wrote: People LIKED the Nazis when they first started out, after all - the Nazi party was a NATIONAL, SOCIALIST party - they promoted better life for the average German person. No they didn't want Jews in their country - Jews were (in their eyes) destroying their country and the morality of the German people. The same was said for gypsies, homosexuals, and even people who had abortions. But, like the Nazi party, Slytherin house has gotten carried away. It's spawned leaders like Voldemort who push to the extremes and walk the fine line between genius and insanity. It's taken a good but flawed goal and twisted it into a dangerous mechanism against other people. People today can claim to be Nationalists, or Socialists, but they are hesitant at best to even admit that they see any good in the Nazi party. *** You can see something very similar to this in the US South. The KKK is a very hated term to use and implies prejudice to the extreme. Look at all the evil things that are attributed to the KKK. The beginnings of it are rarely remembered and when it is, most people deny it because of the evil that it has become. The KKK began at the end of the Civil War (or as we put it, the war between the states). Carpetbagger Yankies became in charge of the south and southerners were treated very badly. Murder, rape, etc were not only not punished but were actually encouraged toward southerners. The KKK began as a vigilanty group of southern men to "take justice into their own hands". Since the carpetbaggers were paying the former slaves to do the dirty work, the blacks were the ones targeted most often. The whole thing outlived it's usefullness and actually became warped and evil. I can draw the parallels with SS and the muggles and see the warping as we come to present day. It makes complete sense to me. Moonmyyst (who grew up picking up mini-balls off of a civil war battlefield) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 30 18:53:08 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 18:53:08 -0000 Subject: ... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99801 Mel: > I agree premeditation, as in plotting Snape's murder over the course of several weeks is not his style, but luring Snape into the passageway 'on a whim' while knowing he was putting him in mortal danger most certianly *is* his style. This from JKR's most recent webchat: > > > Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow? > JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course. > > > Yes, there's more. There's always more, but this is an *unusually clear* answer from Ms. Rowling. No 'um's or 'er's here. Sirius sent Snape into the willow because he hated him.< Pippin: Agreed. I have no problem believing that Sirius, loathing Snape, acted on a murderous whim and told Snape what to do. What I can't credit is that Snape, loathing Sirius, acted on a whim and did it. Barring time turners, any scenario that gives the news time to reach James also gives Snape the time to cool down and say, "Wait a minute, what the !@#$ am I doing?" Snape, unlike Bertha, is usually careful and assesses the risks in advance. Otherwise he'd have been terminated with extreme prejudice a long time ago. If Snape finds himself in unexpected hot water, it's because he underestimates the risks that others are willing to take...for Sirius to use the Shrieking Shack as a refuge, or for James and Sirius to hex him in front of witnesses, or for Harry and his friends to attack him, for example. So I can't believe that it was curiousity alone that got Snape into the tunnel, or that he would knowingly act with reckless disregard for his own skin. As Phineas emphasizes to us, that's not a Slytherin trait. Did somebody slip *Snape* a hot-headedness potion? Pippin From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun May 30 19:11:22 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:11:22 -0000 Subject: New Clue - (Celtic ?) Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <11a.32eea240.2deb482f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99802 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 05/30/2004 5:00:26 AM Central Daylight Time, > carolynwhite2 at a... writes: > > > Carolyn: > > I am surprised no one has picked up on the other interesting tidbit in the article - that Hogwarts is apparently located on a Celtic site (see my post 99679). I have dug around in the Lexicon, but can't find any confirmation of this, maybe someone knows if it is in any of JKR's past interviews ? > > > Melissa: > It was a part of the Newsround interview with Cuaron. Carolyn: Yes, I know, that was the article I was referring to. I was asking if anyone had heard JKR mention it before. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 30 19:15:10 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:15:10 -0000 Subject: New Clue - (Celtic ?) Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > > > It was a part of the Newsround interview with Cuaron. After he > relates th > > says the part about the graveyard and she tells him no, he then > says: > > > > "So then you say 'What about a sundial?' She says: 'That makes > perfect sense > > because when the castle was built it was on an ancient Celtic > site.' Bap bap > > bap!" > > Lady McBeth: > > According to a prophecy, the underworld god Balor, was to be killed > by his grandson. He locked Ethlinn, his daughter, in a tower made of > crystal to keep her from becoming pregnant. However, Cian, one of the > Tuatha de Danaan, with the help of the druidess Birog, managed to > enter the tower. She gave birth to a son, Lugh, by him, but Balor > threw him into the ocean. Birog saved him and gave him to Manannan > mac Lir, who became his foster father. > Potioncat: And this sounds a lot like Perseus (for whatever that might be worth.).....(Perseus Evans) From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun May 30 19:16:52 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:16:52 -0000 Subject: New Clue - (Celtic ?) Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99804 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" wrote: > > Lugh was husband of Rosmerta. After the god Nuada lost an arm in the > Second Battle of Magh Tuiredh and was forced to abdicate his kingship > since he was no longer perfect, Lugh became the leader of the Tuatha > De Danaan. Just as a note Nuada's arm was replaced with a silver one! Carolyn: This is fascinating, we find Rosmerta, a silver arm, Harry's birthday and a white stag in one go. Has to be something in this ! From grahadh at yahoo.com Sun May 30 20:13:22 2004 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (grahadh) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 20:13:22 -0000 Subject: Ghosts at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99805 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thekrenz" wrote: > As I was reading the posts regarding the possible graveyard at > Hogwarts I saw a reference to Sir Nick's song on JKR's website. I > reviewed his song, and a thought occured to me. Were the ghosts > wizards when they lived? Surely Sir Nick was because he was executed > for attempting to fix someone's teeth. And by the same token, were > the people who arrested and imprisoned Sir Nick wizards? I do hope > JKR will give us a little more background on the transparent > residents of Hogwarts. > Just a random thought. Any comments? > Cyndi ----------------------------------------- OoP p860 US edition Nearly Headless Nick hesitated, then said, "Not everyone can come back as a ghost." "What d'you mean?" said Harry quickly. "Only . . . only wizards." Nick then goes on to explain that wizards can choose to become ghosts when they die, but that most do not. He also seems to regret his choice, feeling that he missed out on one of the great mysteries of life. Regarding Nick's captors, you'd think that the people who arrested NHNick would have to have been wizards or witches, or else he probably would have been able to escape. Then again, if the people were muggles, but managed to get his wand away there's not a whole lot he could have done about it. -Dhyana From bhauersperger at hotmail.com Sun May 30 20:27:23 2004 From: bhauersperger at hotmail.com (snufflesnbeakie) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 20:27:23 -0000 Subject: Would JKR lie to protect her story? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99806 I was reviewing interviews with JKR earlier today, and wondered, if someone asked her a question ~ that gave her no choice ~ would she lie to keep the story from being revealed? We are all so hungry for tidbits of information, that naturally we want to accept what Ms. Rowling says as cannon ~ but as she has said, she will be able to have a frank conversation after Book 7 is published ~ and won't have one before. She simply can't ~ if someone gets too close to the truth ~ and even her avoidance of the subject will let the plot slip ~ I believe she would have to lie to protect the entire septology's secrecy. She once said that no one has come close to guessing what she has in store. But what if someone did? Even if she were to answer "No Comment", "You'll find out", or "I can't answer that" to some questions ~ it inadvertently lends credibility to the theory presented. I believe that she must therefore answer "No" at times, even if the information might be true. Don't get me wrong, I think she has a great time rewarding those of us who decipher running bit clues - but I have to think septology plot clues are different. Bottom line ~ she wants us to be entertained until the end, and I don't believe that she would allow one good question to ruin all of the suspense. I think she would choose to fib instead. So, if that is indeed the case ~ can her responses be used to prove or disprove any theory, really? From enigma_only at hotmail.com Sun May 30 22:12:06 2004 From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 22:12:06 -0000 Subject: Celtic Mythology/Cernunnos - was (Celtic ?) Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <11a.32eea240.2deb482f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 05/30/2004 5:00:26 AM Central Daylight Time, > carolynwhite2 at a... writes: > > > Carolyn: > > I am surprised no one has picked up on the other interesting tidbit > > in the article - that Hogwarts is apparently located on a Celtic site > > (see my post 99679). I have dug around in the Lexicon, but can't find > > any confirmation of this, maybe someone knows if it is in any of > > JKR's past interviews ? > > > > It was a part of the Newsround interview with Cuaron. After he relates th > says the part about the graveyard and she tells him no, he then says: > > "So then you say 'What about a sundial?' She says: 'That makes perfect sense > because when the castle was built it was on an ancient Celtic site.' Bap bap > bap!" > > Bonny here, after a long and unavoidable absence - Here are some interesting tid-bits to do with Celtic mythology that seemed pertinent. I got these off http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernunnos. I have snipped so as to include only the most important facts. " Cernunnos is a Gaulish name meaning "Horned One." Cernunos' portrayals are unusually consistent. His most distinctive attribute are his stag's horns..." "...He wears a torc, an ornate neck-ring used by the Celts to denote nobility. He often carries other torcs in his hands or hanging from his horns, as well as a purse filled with coins." "Cernunnos is nearly always portrayed with animals, in particular the stag. He is also frequently associated with a unique beast that seems to belong only to him: a serpent with the horns of a ram. Less often he is associated with other beasts, including bulls, dogs and rats. Because of his association with stags in particular (a particularly hunted beast) he is also described as The Lord of the Hunt. Interestingly the Parisi altar links him with sailors, (the altar was dedicated by sailors) and with commerce (he is shown with coins)." >>>>So, we have a man with stag horns, often shown with money, as Harry is depicted to be (with money, I mean). This particular deity is also associated with Dogs (Sirius) and Rats (Wormtail). Also, Cernunnos has the unique association with the horned serpent. I don't know what the sailors might have to do with it, but I find the other links very interesting. Cernunnos is also one of the Celtic Gods that goes through a cycle of re-birth. Voldemort went through his rebirth in a graveyard, using the bone of his father. Is it possible that Harry may someday have to go through the same process? If his father is buried at Hogwarts... hmmm. Or perhaps (as is likley) the four or three of the four founders are buried there. Here is some more interesting info, coming from a different page, http://www.isisbooks.com/cernunnos.asp. "The great leader of the Fiana ? Fionn mac Cumhaill ? for instance, married a woman who was originally a deer (or was she a woman who could shape-shift into deer form?) >>> Actually she was supposed to have been changed intoa deer by a Druid >>>>. Their son, Ois?n, could change back and forth between animal and human form, and is said to have been in the habit of following either a hart or a stag through the woods until it led him across the s?dhe into the Otherworld" "... Cernunnos presides over various kinds of journeys into the Otherworld. He leads mortals across the s?dhe after death, and guides them to the trailhead of new adventures, encouraging them to carry on with the quest for wisdom, truth and beauty that was already begun in this life. He can also lead adventurers into the Otherlands while still in their co?ch anama ("soul house"; i.e., the body), if they need to see something there, or if they are looking for someone. Following Cernunnos through the Veil between the Worlds is one of the surest ways of making the journey and returning unscathed, as he generally won't abandon those who follow him with good purpose. Cernunnos ? in his role of Guide of the Dead ? often appeared near dolmens and barrows?dhe in ancient Celtic times. Dolmens are stone structures; the remains of pre-Celtic, Neolithic burial sites... Many dolmens are large enough for a person to walk into. They mark places of intersection between the worlds... When in human form, Cernunnos may also appear with a strange horned serpent. Sometimes this animal is held in both hands while at other times the serpent will be seen entwining the god's antlers. This serpent is a mystical symbol of the god's power to move back and forth across the side; it is an animal that slithers back and forth between worlds." Rather than point out any more possible connections to a Hogwarts graveyard and how it might affect the plot, I will leave it to others to specualte. Bonny From enigma_only at hotmail.com Sun May 30 23:00:04 2004 From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 23:00:04 -0000 Subject: Snape's to blame (WAS Lupin's resignation and the legacy of hate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99808 > Pippin: > ESE!Lupin couldn't afford to have Sirius and Pettigrew > questioned together--certainly not in front of a calm, rational, > let's put two and two together Snape. But no matter. ESE!Lupin > knew exactly what to say to get Snape to behave in a completely > unreasonable fashion. Snape-baiting was his favorite spectator > sport in the good old days, after all. Bonny: As I recall, in OoTP Lupin was trying not to watch James and Sirius torture Snape. He certainly didn't take part, and seemed displeased, in a passive way, that the others were tormenting Snape. Pippin: He'd been trying all year to > provoke Snape into a display of temper, what with the boggart > and the Map... Bonny: But Lupin had no control over the Boggart, except to suggest a way t omake Snape comical. Neville could just as easily have been terrified of flobberworms, and dressed one of them in his grandmothers clothes. As for the map, it insulted Snape before Lupin even entered the office. Snape called Lupin because he suspected a connection, probably based on the nicknames. However, Lupin did not influence the map in any way, aside from his 15 year old personality still instilled in it. > and in the Shack he finally managed it. Most > gratifying. Snape has shown himself to be irrational and fly of the handle whenever confronted with anything to do with James and Sirius. Simply seeing Lupin with Black did the trick (and kind of understandably, it would look suspicious, and Snape had been accepting Lupin, even if it was reluctant). Pissing someone off simply by being there is hardly gratifying. But that is only my take on things, I just don't buy ESE! Lupin. But who knows, maybe I will be prooved wrong. Bonny From enigma_only at hotmail.com Sun May 30 23:12:02 2004 From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 23:12:02 -0000 Subject: What about the Door(that wasn't at the end of the tunnel)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Jessica wrote: > Snape was able to use the tunnel as a child and an adult, Lupin > uses it as an adult, Harry, Hermione and Ron use it as well, so it > must be big enough for at least an adult to use (although it may be > cramped). > > But I do think a stag would have a hard time using the tunnel if a > > person had to bend over to use it :)) > > > > Although there is no proof against an enchantment to prevent > > Transformed!Lupin from accessing the passageway. > > > > > Potioncat: > The part that makes me think that the werewolf didn't normally get > into the tunnel (without Marauders' help) was Lupin's comment > that "had Snape gotten in the house, he would have met a full grown > werewolf." (paraphrased) > > I think everyone except James could have used the tunnel, as an > amimagus. > Potioncat Bonny: But they used to run about the grounds on nights that Lupin transformed - which means that they would have had to come back through the tunnel. "Soon we were leaving the Shreiking Shack and roaming the school grounds and village by night. Sirius and James transformed into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check." - PoA, pg 260, Canadian paperback edition. I think the most likley scenario is simply that Lupin thought like an animal when he was transformed, and an animal likley wouldn't stop and rationalize to figure out how to get out of the house. He went pretty crazy according to PoA, though less so when the others were with him. He probably always had the physical ability to leave the shack, but not the rational ability. Bonny From snapesmate at hotmail.com Mon May 31 00:03:55 2004 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 00:03:55 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "earendil_fr" wrote: So at the time of GH, James and Lily think Lupin shouldn't be trusted > and was (possibly) a traitor. I don't think Lupin would have been > welcome at GH back then - not to mention he wasn't supposed to know > the location. > Second, she died protecting Harry, so she had to be > the one with Harry. > > As for Lily not fleeing... Maybe someone blocked the way out while > James fought LV... > > Earendil. When I first viewed the clip it seemed as though Lupin did indeed love Lily, because he says a lot about her ability to love, her eyes, etc. and all he mentions about James is that he had a talent for mischief. After chewing on it, I then realized it also lends a tad of creedence to that "swithing" theory stuff. Up until seeing that clip I never believed in that theory. That being said, as far as canon, Remus Lupin could NOT have been at the Potter home that night because he did not know the secret keeper had been ratboy. The only way for him to be at the home would have been if THE secret keeper had told him where the Potters were. Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice guy! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 31 01:09:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 01:09:04 -0000 Subject: ... the "Prank" ? Reverse Psychology & Impulsiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: >> I agree premeditation, as in plotting Snape's murder over the course > of several weeks is not his style, but luring Snape into the > passageway 'on a whim' while knowing he was putting him in mortal > danger most certianly *is* his style. > This from JKR's most recent webchat: > > > Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow? > JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling > was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course. > > > Yes, there's more. There's always more, but this is an *unusually > clear* answer from Ms. Rowling. No 'um's or 'er's here. Sirius sent > Snape into the willow because he hated him. > > You pointing out that PMWP were facing expulsion anyway puts and > even more chilling face on the whole thing. 'Well we're getting > chucked out anyway, might was well go out with a real bang!' > Hey, what's one accidental murder when you're already going to be > expelled for endangering an entire village? > > Mel Well, of course my interpretation of this question and answer is much different than yours. :o) I see absolutely nothing clear in Rowling answer. Come to think of it, even questions is formulated interestingly. Not - "Why did Sirius sent Snape to the Shack?", but "What MADE Sirius sent Snape to the Shack?" Hmmm, could Sirius be under Imperius too? :) (I don't really believe in it , for the record) I place much more importance on "you will find out more". I feel that theri backstory will be very significant and the reasons will become clear later, but to me, not yet. Of course, they hated each other. I just think there was something else besides bullying going on. I have no problem beleiving that Sirius became incredibly angry. I just want to know WHY and I believe that that reasons may excuse him. Alla From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Mon May 31 02:02:16 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 02:02:16 -0000 Subject: Celtic Background Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99812 On discovering so many links in JKR's writing I thought I would give y'all some research work. . . so far we've seen prophesy, the sun, Rosemerta, July 31, a silver hand, and there may be others. I'm sure JKR did some reading on magic before she actually started writing. Here's my 2 cents . . . Cetlic tradition speaks of a mythical group called the Tuatha De Danann that disappears with the comming of the tribes to Britian. Could this be the split between the magic and non magic folk. Perhaps we should be looking towards celtic mythology and their wheel of the year for answers instead of towards the Bible for answers. Although, I have to say that I've found numerous paralells between JKR and Dickens . . . does anyone else see those? Lady McBeth From LadySawall at aol.com Mon May 31 02:10:51 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (LadySawall at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 22:10:51 EDT Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts Message-ID: <6a.4021c07a.2debee2b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 99813 In a message dated 05/30/2004 9:45:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Pippin writes: I think this is an excellent point, not morbid at all, except that black magic in general is morbid. The Hand of Glory, which appears in CoS, is made from the hand of a corpse. The body parts of magical creatures have powers after their deaths--dragon blood and heartstrings for example. Wizard graveyards probably have very powerful magical protections on them to keep Dark Wizards from harvesting the remains. --- Jo Ann: Unfortunate that Muggle graveyards have no such protections (unless you want to take into account consecrated ground.) Let's not forget that Voldemort needed the "bones of the father" to be restored...and apparently either that graveyard wasn't consecrated, or such things have no power over evil in JKR's world... Jo Ann [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon May 31 02:22:21 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 02:22:21 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99814 Melissa wrote: > > >Someone asked why would J/L have been buried at Hogwarts I want > > to know why they wouldn't have been? Then Eustace_Scrubb: > > I agree yours is a good question. For one thing, if the Potters > > left no living relatives save Harry, Petunia and Dudley, who > > would have been in charge of funeral arrangements? Of their > > close friends, Sirius and Peter were gone as well within 24 hours > > or so. My guess would be that Dumbledore would have filled the > > role. Next Earendil: > I'm the one who asked in another post why J/L would have been > buried at Hogwarts. (maybe someone else asked though) > And then I read your post. I think you have a point. With no living > relatives, taking care of funeral arrangements would be a problem, > and it would explain a burial at Hogwarts if DD had filled the > role. However, you forgot Lupin among the close friends...He could > have taken care of funeral arrangements, that was the least he > could do for his friends... Eustace_Scrubb: You're right, I didn't mention Lupin, though that was sort of on purpose. I'm not really sure why, but I have a feeling that people wouldn't have looked to Lupin to take charge...maybe it's just that I know he's a werewolf and most of those he was dealing with didn't? On the other hand, it would have been a most difficult moment for him, as he'd lost three friends himself (perhaps his only three _real_ friends). In some ways, Godric's Hollow left Lupin quite as alone as it did Harry. (Of course, the ESE!Lupin fans would have quite a different take on this.) Even though Lupin was available, I'd expect an authority figure such as Dumbledore to make arrangements...especially if, as some later posters theorize, DD wanted to make sure the bodies were protected from tampering by dark wizards later. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon May 31 03:00:49 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 03:00:49 -0000 Subject: Celtic Mythology/Cernunnos - was (Celtic ?) Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99815 Bonny wrote: > Here is some more interesting info, coming from a different page, > http://www.isisbooks.com/cernunnos.asp. Eustace_Scrubb: Another tidbit from this link: "The Celtic year begins on 1 November, after the long night of Samhain, which is often spent in adventuring between the worlds.... The Ninth Full Moon in this Lunar Calendar is called Cernobogmas and is dedicated to the "Hunt for the Black Stag." " So in other words, the Celtic New Year's Eve is October 31 (Samhain), a date of great significance in Harry Potter's world. And the moon associated with Cernunnos would normally occur during the month of July, the month of Harry's and Neville's births. (if I'm counting right) You may be onto something here. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Mon May 31 03:26:01 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 03:26:01 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99816 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > vmonte replies: > > > > What if DD wanted to protect their bodies. If a piece of a > subject's hair is needed to make polyjuice potion, what else can > be made with the bodies of the dead. Maybe, DD is taking care > of their graves by ensuring that they aren't desecrated. (I know > I'm morbid.)< > > I think this is an excellent point, not morbid at all, except that > black magic in general is morbid. The Hand of Glory, which > appears in CoS, is made from the hand of a corpse. The body > parts of magical creatures have powers after their > deaths--dragon blood and heartstrings for example. Wizard > graveyards probably have very powerful magical protections on > them to keep Dark Wizards from harvesting the remains. > Therefore the Trio could not make a casual visit as Cuaron > would have had them do. > > Pippin Hi All, In GoF, Crouch!Moody explains he kept Moody alive in order to question him and because he needed to use his hair for the potion (paraphrased from GOF hardback, US pg 689). I had always thought the person had to be alive in order for Polyjuice to work. If the hair was from a dead person wouldn't the drinker turn into a corpse? It is also very interesting to consider what sort of enchantments are on WW graveyards. I think you are correct in assuming there must be many, Pippin. In an earlier thread someone postulated that perhaps Harry was in a graveyard near by Hogwarts in the scene in GoF. We know from canon that the GoF graveyard is in Litte Hangleton and Harry himself notes that "...they had obviously traveled miles-- perhaps hundreds of miles--for even the mountains surrounding the castle were gone" GoF HB US pg 636. I think the most interesting question of all is why Harry et all wind up there in book 6. In the March 4th chat JKR said if she had a chance to meet Harry she would take him to lunch and apologize to him because she knows all of the horrible things that are going to happen to him. I don't think Harry is through learning about the nature of good and evil and the choices his father made in his life. If Harry's parents are buried at Hogwarts, perhaps it is Harry who will seek something from inside one of their caskets that he needs to solve some other mystery. Just pondering... Sue(hpfan) P.S. This also answers the ancient posts (fall maybe?) about what rituals the WW has for "disposing" of their dead. Thank you JKR for answering one tiny little riddle. From SHENmagic at aol.com Mon May 31 04:00:41 2004 From: SHENmagic at aol.com (Lady Healing Hands) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 04:00:41 -0000 Subject: James or Lilly killed first? - differences in editions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99817 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > The interesting question is, if both my UK editions have the correct > order on p.605 despite having different orders on p.579 and yet the > US Scholastic edition apparently is wrong in Carol's copy, did this > Flint actually creep into UK editions? > > Anybody got earlier UK editions to check? Yep, Geoff. First edition 2000 Goblet of Fire, page 579. It does have the Flint of James coming out of the wand before Lily. Lady A. From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Mon May 31 05:18:52 2004 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 05:18:52 -0000 Subject: A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99818 Hi! Would anyone out there be able to give me the msg. # of a posting by Hans (may be from last summer) that talks about heroes and needing to die (meaning Harry)? I thought the hero _can't_ die, but it seems that they can - Argh!! Not the fate I want for our Harry!! Thanks! HedwigsTalons From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Mon May 31 06:05:01 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 06:05:01 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat (Was: The permanent problem with Slytherin House) In-Reply-To: <20040530134519.1093.qmail@web50102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > Lady Macbeth wrote: > People LIKED the Nazis when they first started out (SNIP) But, like the Nazi party, Slytherin house has gotten carried away. It's spawned leaders like Voldemort who push to the extremes and walk the fine line between genius and insanity. It's taken a good but flawed goal and twisted it into a dangerous mechanism against other people. People today can claim to be Nationalists, or Socialists, but they are hesitant at best to even admit that they see any good in the Nazi party. > > > Moonmyyst (who grew up picking up mini-balls off of a civil war battlefield) > You can see something very similar to this in the US South. The KKK is a very hated term to use and implies prejudice to the extreme. Look at all the evil things that are attributed to the KKK. The beginnings of it are rarely remembered and when it is, most people deny it because of the evil that it has become. The KKK began at the end of the Civil War (or as we put it, the war between the states). Carpetbagger Yankies became in charge of the south and southerners were treated very badly. Murder, rape, etc were not only not punished but were actually encouraged toward southerners. The KKK began as a vigilanty group of southern men to "take justice into their own hands". Since the carpetbaggers were paying the former slaves to do the dirty work, the blacks were the ones targeted most often. The whole thing outlived it's usefullness and actually became warped and evil. > > I can draw the parallels with SS and the muggles and see the warping as we come to present day. It makes complete sense to me. > imamommy: Carried away my eye! Salazar Slytherin himself left a basilisk in a chamber to kill off muggle-borns, and you're going to say it was all very well before it got out of hand? Slytherins are sorted based on their personality traits, not their political aims or their need for defense. I am not saying those traits can not be used for good, if tempered with some other qualities, but I think Slytherin House has it's reputation for a reason. imamommy From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun May 30 19:01:23 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 15:01:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <1e5.21ad3e1c.2dead573@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99820 | From: Meliss9900 at aol.com [mailto:Meliss9900 at aol.com] | Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 2:13 AM | | In a message dated 05/30/2004 12:54:38 AM Central Daylight Time, | n2fgc at arrl.net writes: | | > And that's where I have my problem. If the priori is the most recent | > first, | > the appearance of Cedric, Frank Brice and then Bertha are in the correct | > sequence. But then, indeed, Lilly should come next, then James. | > | > So, I just don't see how this sequence of Lilly appearing and | then James can | > be an error. Am I so dense?? | | | No you're not dense. | | In the original printing of the book JKR made a mistake and had James | appearing before Lily, (Cedric, Frank, Bertha, James, Lily . | .ect) subsequent | printings corrected this error. (Cerdic, Frank, Bertha, Lily, | James . .ect). I think | that the previous poster (naama) simply mistyped the order in | her post and | that she meant to say Lily emerged first. [Lee] Thanks! I really thought I was losing it, because I was sure I had seen/heard that Lil came out and told Harry that his father would be along in a moment. And I have a first-edition US Audio copy, so the error must have been corrected for it's reading. I appreciate the help, good people of the list. Thanks, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From jasonlava at yahoo.com Mon May 31 04:08:57 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 04:08:57 -0000 Subject: FILK: Heir Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99821 Heir (Parody of "Hair" by The Cowsills) GRYFFINDOR CHORUS: Harry asked him why HARRY: Why . I'm a scary guy They fear me day and (CHORUS)nighty night night I gave my friends a fright They watch me where I go Don't ask me why (CHORUS)Cause I don't know Is it those words I sung In Parseltongue (HARRY/CHORUS)Tell me Am I Slytherin's heir? Am I his heir? Tell me I think everyone should think so Could I be his heir? (heir) Just like Voldemort now (heir) Killed my daddy Killed my mama Can you tell me am I really his heir (heir heir heir heir heir heir heir) Oh no I think That I really could be his heir Well do I have what it takes? Can I talk to the snakes? Those are the signs of his heir Do I have the keys to The home for the Basilisk I'm so worried I'm lost for words And I just can't help but wonder if I'm his heir (heir heir heir heir heir heir heir) Am I? Tell me? Do you really think that I'm his heir HERMIONE I didn't know that you're a parsel sort of thing is kinda rare now If it's really really true Than you'd get sorted slytherin HARRY: sorting hat he tried it But I did debate it Now I wonder if I'm tangled In the wrong house cause I wouldn't let him. RON, FREG & GEORGE Oh say can you talk to the snakes If you can, than you are his heir SEAMUS Slytherin! NEVILLE Slytherin! DEAN: Slytherin! DRACO Slytherin! DUMBLEDORE You're not his heir No, Voldemort put in you just a piece of himself HARRY: So I'm not Slytherin's heir I'm not his heir Although I have some of Voldy's powers So I'm really not the heir (HEIR!) It is Voldemort now (HEIR!) `Cause I could pull the sword out That means that I'm a Gryffindorrrrrrrrrrrrrr (dor dor dor dor . dor . dor dorrrrr .) Know it Show it Long as I live, I'm a Gryffindorrrrrrrrrrrrrr (dor dor dor dor . dor . dor dorrrrr .) (repeat) From llafleur276 at hotmail.com Sun May 30 19:24:38 2004 From: llafleur276 at hotmail.com (impulsivebrandi) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:24:38 -0000 Subject: Lupin and James Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99822 I am not the best at finding clues and such in the hp books,but I bought this book ("Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter") and this book really is amazing.One of the more astonishing ideas in this book is concerning Lupin and James. This book suggests that James is still alive and that he is using Lupins body. Let me quote the book. "What probably happened to James and Remus: Thinking that they had doubts about the reliability of Black(their secret keeper for the Fidelius Charm),James and Lupin must have taken one extra precaution. Using a Switching Spell, they managed to switch identities. This was done without the knowledge of anyone else (with the possible exception of Lily,who might have done it). We doubt that even Dumbledore(who never knew they were Animagi) had been told." so eventually James (in Lupin's body) leaves and Lupin (in James' body) stays home with Lily. When Lupin dies in James' body James is stuck in Lupins body and has been living as Lupin ever since. Here are some evidence on this subject: -how did Dumbledore get James' invisibility cloak -how did Hagrid get the key to James' Gringotts vault -Lupin never gawks at Harry's scar -Lupin never says how Harry resembles James -Lupin addresses Harry as if he was very familiar with him -Lupin seems to be able to read Harry's mind Here is another small quote from the book: "Harry tells Lupin that when a Dementor gets near him, he hears his mum being murdered by Voldemordt. On hearing this, Lupin had made a sudden motion with his arm, as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but thought better of it"(Ch.10) ~Brandi From jasonlava at yahoo.com Mon May 31 04:10:01 2004 From: jasonlava at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 04:10:01 -0000 Subject: FILK: Fuzzy Hats Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99823 Fuzzy Hats (Parody of "Satin Sheets" by Loretta Lynn) More HP country YEE-HAW! Wow a country filk and it's not about Tonks :-O . This filk makes me sad. Poor Winky :-( WINKY Fuzzy Hats to put on Fuzzy slippers to cry on Still I is not happy can't you see Dark mark in the sky Ministry ask Winky why Still Master Crouch set Winky free HERMIONE I've got a master plan To free as many elves that I can Leavin' clothes for them when they pass by DOBBY But the house elves don't want your clothes And they don't clean here no more You see workin' here keeps them satisfied (HOUSE ELVES)/WINKY (Fuzzy hats) Fuzzy hats to put on (Fuzzy slippers) Fuzzy slippers to cry on (oooooh ) Still I is not happy can't you see (aaaaaah .) Dark mark in the sky Ministry ask Winky why Still master Crouch set Winky free (repeat chorus) From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon May 31 05:09:05 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 01:09:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Myrtle in the cold, cold ground... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99824 | From: Wanda Sherratt [mailto:wsherratt3338 at rogers.com] | Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 8:07 AM | It just occurred to me, if Myrtle's parents WERE Muggles, *could* | they come to Hogwarts to collect her body? Hermione says that | Hogwarts is protected by charms to make it look like an abandoned | old ruin to any Muggle who comes around. In special cases, could | those charms be lifted to permit access to a Muggle? We've seen | Hermione's parents at Diagon Alley, so some wizarding locations are | accessible to Muggles, but what would happen if they wanted to come | to Hogwarts? I wonder, has any Muggle ever come to Hogwarts? [Lee] I presume Mr. and Mrs. Granger got into Diagon Alley because Hermione was with them. I would surmise that a muggle could gain access to a wizard location if accompanied by a wizard or if they were expected at a particular location. I'd go with the first supposition, more likely. Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon May 31 04:41:15 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 00:41:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Priori Incamtatum Goof? (was Re: Lupin Loved Lily) In-Reply-To: <20040530074627.76625.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99825 | From: udder_pen_dragon [mailto:udderpd at yahoo.co.uk] | Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 3:46 AM | By the way, does anyone know how exactly this was corrected in later | editions? What did Lily say when she appeared first? | | Alina. | | Now UdderPD | | Lilly said I quote | | ... and Harry, his arms shaking madlynow, looked back into the | face of his mother. | | "Your father's coming ..." she said quietly. "He wants to | see you ... it will be alright ... hold on..." | | And he came ... [Lee] Okay, I pulled the US Audio read by Jim Dale and transcribed the segment, so if my punctuation doesn't exactly match the text, my apologies...it is an audio transcription. And it's a first edition, so the goof was definitely corrected for the reading. It says: "The smoky shadow of a young woman with long hair fell to the ground as Bertha had done, straightened up and looked at him. And Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother. 'Your father's coming,' she said quietly. 'Hold on for your father. It will be all right. Hold on for your father.' And he came--first his head and then his body. Tall and untidy haired like Harry, the smoky form of James Potter blossomed from the end of Voldemort's wand..." (Etc.)| Again, thank you all. I'm really enjoying these discussions! Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon May 31 12:06:11 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 12:06:11 -0000 Subject: Myrtle in the cold, cold ground... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99826 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: < Snip> > Meri: Ooooh, interesting...You mean like the Black Cauldron from > Lloyd Alexander? That would be something else, wouldn't it? We don't > know anything about how dementors get created or where they come > from. Wandering, soulless, deathless corpses anyone? I really hope > JKR explains that particular piece of cannon as well. Sue: As good an idea as any. I always did wonder who or what the Dementors were, though, strictly speaking, they seem to have minds, however primitive, which the "reborn" of the Cauldron don't. But it sure makes more sense than the notion of Dementor families, baby dementors, etc. ;-) > > > --Eric, who thinks that if he were a ghost he'd be known as > > Never-Gets-Out-Of-The-Library Eric. (Hey, it beats Nearly- > Headless Nick!) > > Meri - who were she a ghost may very well be haunting the library > with you (Merely Reading Meri? Doesn't have the same ring to is as > Sir Properly Decapitated Podmore, though does it?) Sue : Chuckle! Don't forget, though, that as a ghost you wouldn't be able to touch the books! Unless they were particularly smelly books? (g. See COS). From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 31 13:13:36 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 13:13:36 -0000 Subject: Would JKR lie to protect her story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snufflesnbeakie" wrote: > I was reviewing interviews with JKR earlier today, and wondered, if someone asked her a question ~ that gave her no choice ~ would she lie to keep the story from being revealed?< Pippin: I don't know if lying would protect the story. False information would kill the suspense just as much as true information, and would ruin the story as well. But she has lied to avoid disappointing a young reader: *** http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/109 9-columbusdisp-gilson.html "I know what the title of your next book is. I know what it is. It's Harry Potter and the Quidditch World Cup!" Rowling, a slight woman with strawberry-blond hair, paused to recall the episode, then spoke again in her crisp British accent. "Every other time a kid has said this to me, I've said, 'No, that's a rumor; that's not the title.' But he was so pleased with himself that he thought he knew it, and he was only about 5, so I said: 'That's right. You're absolutely right.' And I thought, 'He'll deal with it later. *** I don't think JKR needs to lie to get readers on the wrong track. Given the fans' tendency to build massive edifices of speculation on the slightest foundation or no foundation at all, Rowling can encourage false rumors by openly refusing to deny them. For example, if you check out the polls section you'll see that a lopsided majority of the list was convinced that Hagrid was going to kick the bucket in Book Five. This, despite the fact that re-reading PoA, Sirius might as well be wearing a toe-tag. You see, JKR told the BBC that she'd given Robbie Coltrane some background on his character, and fans made much of the fact that Coltrane had signed only a five movie contract. Though it was announced that the length of Coltrane's contract was strictly a business matter, the rumor persisted. JKR was asked whether Hagrid would die... ****** http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/109 9-columbusdisp-gilson.html Q: Children know that a death or two will occur in the next books, and they're worried about some characters -- particularly Ron and Hagrid the groundskeeper. Do you pay attention to such concerns? A: For five years, this was my internal world. It's still the most amazing thing to meet one person, let alone hordes of people, who knows these characters. It's heartwarming that people care enough about them to want them not to get hurt, but at the same time I have the absolute right to do what I like to my story and characters. I'm not going to write to order. I've planned the whole story, and I've always known who was going to die and who was going to come through unscathed, and I'm not going to deviate from that. ***** JKR enjoys the theorizing, and she knows it would spoil the game if people caught on that she was lying...so I think in the main she doesn't. But like Dumbledore talking to Fudge, she's quite willing for us to draw the wrong conclusions. Pippin From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon May 31 14:59:07 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:59:07 -0000 Subject: A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hedwigstalons" wrote: > Hi! > Would anyone out there be able to give me the msg. # of a posting by > Hans (may be from last summer) that talks about heroes and needing to > die (meaning Harry)? I thought the hero _can't_ die, but it seems > that they can - Argh!! Not the fate I want for our Harry!! > Yeah, I can sort of remember this thread, but it didn't really cover heroic figures much, more what defined heroism - and Hans was very keen to put 'love' as the root of Harry's actions. Not something I agree with, but no matter. In fiction (and reality) heroes quite often come to a sticky end. It's one of the more depressing aspects of being a hero. Some pop their clogs in a mutual blood-fest with the arch enemy (Arthur, El Cid), some cop it in the neck from another monster at a later date later (Beowulf). The problem being once you've done something stupendous, every time something nasty turns up from then on, by common consent you're the local pest exterminator. How can you say no? You can't; not without stepping down from your pedestal. You end up a bit like being a mythological bomb-disposal expert - and sooner or later one's bound to get you. Browsing through my big Boys Book of Heroes there are some recurrent themes: 1. Very few seem to set out to be a hero. Usually it's more or less an inevitability, whether they like it or not. Traditionally not. Once they've seen the size/weapons of the baddy there's often a chronic shortage of volunteers; the rest of the possibles find a damn good reason to visit their aged aunt in the next country but two, (leaving guess who? to strap on his sword and do the necessary.) There are exceptions, sort of; Achilles (topical!) was supposedly offered a choice by the gods - a short life full of glory or a long-lived obscurity. Whether you class him as a hero is up to you, but the choice offered is probably indicative of what the ancients considered the proper status for a hero, i.e. dead. 2. Heroism is about more than brave deeds; it's also about self sacrifice. Usually the ultimate self-sacrifice (Marathon, Roland). That's what you get when you put concern for the condition of others above your own safety. To my mind getting a race named after you doesn't quite make up for not being able to stroll down the course. 3. Heroes that do survive to celebrate the victory never seem to live happily ever after (Frodo, Gilgamesh) or later fall victim to someone they believed they could trust (Robin Hood, Merlin). 4. Once the danger is over, the hero is redundant and quite often an unwelcome reminder to the more circumspect (the ones now involved in getting their feet under the table) of how ineffectual they were. How can you bolster your ego and impress the youngsters when there's this boring old fart sitting by the fire who did all the hard work and can prove it. On the whole, being a traditional hero is not a happy condition. The "and they all lived happily ever after" ending only seems to be the rule in Fairy Tales; more grown up and traditional stories stress the opposite. Certainly both the ancient Greek and the Viking tradition place everlasting glory above collecting your pension: "Men die, cattle die; only the glory of heroes lives forever" as the Edda puts it. How this relates to Harry is up for grabs. Personally I don't expect him to survive, or not in the form that he is now. He and Voldy are too close, too intermingled for a straight-forward showdown on Hogmead High St. with Butterbeers and a vote of thanks for the winner. McGonagall might have been prophesying when in PS/SS she mentioned that in the future there could be a "Harry Potter Day." That's how they remember heroes - with a holiday for the survivors. Kneasy From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 31 15:27:57 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 15:27:57 -0000 Subject: A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99829 Kneasy: > 2. Heroism is about more than brave deeds; it's also about self sacrifice. Usually the ultimate self-sacrifice (Marathon, Roland). That's what you get when you put concern for the condition of others above your own safety. To my mind getting a race named after you doesn't quite make up for not being able to stroll down the course.< It's much safer to name things after dead heroes. Chicago still suffers the civic embarrassment of a street named after Mussolini's Air Marshall. But everybody dies, heroes included. The romancers of old thought it was rather unheroic to die in bed, so they usually allowed their aging heroes one last battle. Mark Twain said it was difficult to know where to end the story of a boy, but the story of a man ends with a marriage. I suspect the epilogue will leave this generation's survivors married off. Pippin From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 31 16:19:14 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 16:19:14 -0000 Subject: Would JKR lie to protect her story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99830 "snufflesnbeakie" > < > > I was reviewing interviews with JKR earlier today, and > wondered, if someone asked her a question ~ that gave her no > choice ~ would she lie to keep the story from being revealed?< > > Pippin: > I don't know if lying would protect the story. False information > would kill the suspense just as much as true information, and > would ruin the story as well. But she has lied to avoid > disappointing a young reader: > > *** >> > I don't think JKR needs to lie to get readers on the wrong track. > Given the fans' tendency to build massive edifices of speculation > on the slightest foundation or no foundation at all, Rowling can > encourage false rumors by openly refusing to deny them. >> > It's heartwarming that people care enough about them to want > them not to get hurt, but at the same time I have the absolute > right to do what I like to my story and characters. I'm not going to > write to order. I've planned the whole story, and I've always > known who was going to die and who was going to come > through unscathed, and I'm not going to deviate from that. > ***** > > JKR enjoys the theorizing, and she knows it would spoil the > game if people caught on that she was lying...so I think in the > main she doesn't. But like Dumbledore talking to Fudge, she's > quite willing for us to draw the wrong conclusions. > Just wanted to say that I agree totally with you Pippin. I haven't been in this group for very long, but ever since, I have read some of the most amazing and interesting theories on every single aspect of the HP stories. I never would have thought that Snape (or Sirius for that matter) was a Vamp, or ever looked for clues to prove one way or another, or thought that my beloved Remus was ESE! or truly held out hope that my beloved Sirius would return from the dead, or even more interesting, that he was _secretly aided_ in his escape... I could go on and on. That's why this group really rocks, but I doubt JKR would have to do much actual bald-faced lying to most of us here. IMHO, if she came to this group and read some of the posts, I think she would have a hard time controlling her shock. Plus, if she ever did want to change her stories (6 & 7) this would be an excellent source for ideas. I mean, everyone posts such interesting theories that I have been thoroughly entertained since the first day that I joined this group, but for me it's rather like Hollywood taking an excellent book and making it into a movie. The movie's rarely as good as the book for me because of the simple fact that no one's imagination, Speilburg or no, equals mine. The day Garfield (the comic strip) went on the air and I heard his voice, I was honestly dismayed. He sounded nothing like he was supposed to sound. I grew accustomed to it, and ended up liking the show, just as I will enjoy the last two HP books, but Hollywood's idea of what GArfield should sound like and MY idea of what he should sound like were two totally different things. Plus, just look at the way everyone, here and in the movie biz, runs with an idea. That trailer from POA "I recognized you immediately"... WOW! Never in a million years would I have thought that Remus was in love with Lily. Snivellus, sure, expecting it, but Lupin?!?! Even the director of POA has a different vision of what's important in the Potter universe. There's some interview, I cannot find the link, though most of you will know what I'm talking about, but JKR says that she likes the director's take on his other movies, and while he didn't stick so strictly with the book, she feels he really captured the _spirit_, meaning, IMO, that Cuaron's vision was slightly different than hers, which is, of course, inevitable! My long-winded point is that she wouldn't have to actually lie. Like DD, all she'd have to do is show us that little twinkle in her eye, smile and shrug, or perhaps say, "You'll see..." Susan (teilani) who feels incredibly chatty today. From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 31 16:38:15 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 16:38:15 -0000 Subject: Lupin and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99831 "impulsivebrandi" <: > I am not the best at finding clues and such in the hp books,but I > bought this book ("Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of > Harry Potter") and this book really is amazing.One of the more > astonishing ideas in this book is concerning Lupin and James. This > book suggests that James is still alive and that he is using Lupins > body. Let me quote the book. > > "What probably happened to James and Remus: > Thinking that they had doubts about the reliability of > Black(their secret keeper for the Fidelius Charm),James > and Lupin must have taken one extra precaution. Using a Switching > Spell, they managed to switch identities. This was done without the > knowledge of anyone else (with the possible exception of Lily,who > might have done it). We doubt that even Dumbledore(who never knew > they were Animagi) had been told." > > so eventually James (in Lupin's body) leaves and Lupin (in James' > body) stays home with Lily. > When Lupin dies in James' body James is stuck in Lupins body and has > been living as Lupin ever since. > > Here are some evidence on this subject: > -how did Dumbledore get James' invisibility cloak > -how did Hagrid get the key to James' Gringotts vault > -Lupin never gawks at Harry's scar > -Lupin never says how Harry resembles James > -Lupin addresses Harry as if he was very familiar with him > -Lupin seems to be able to read Harry's mind > Here is another small quote from the book: > > "Harry tells Lupin that when a Dementor gets near him, he hears his > mum being murdered by Voldemordt. On hearing this, Lupin had made a > sudden motion with his arm, as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but > thought better of it"(Ch.10) > ~Brandi Wow, that thing got published? Kneasy, bboy, one of you two better get crackin and publish some of these great theories that have been posted here. If a person can get published for _speculating_ about some other author's characters and storylines, especially considering what a cash cow HP is, then wow, we could all be as rich as the Queen! But Siriusly, I agree with whoever (so sorry, I can't find that post) said that it would be unbelievably cruel for one of Harry's parents to be alive all this time. To leave Harry with the Dursleys, to let him grow up with no friends, no loved ones, no support, only for him to find out that one of his parents was alive the whole time would be enough, IMO, to send anyone over the edge of sanity! Plus, once LV became Vapor!Mort (I love that one) what would be the point? The entire wizarding community's celebrating, LV doesn't get any of his strength back until Harry's 11, why hide for ten peaceful years?! Why not enjoy watching Harry grow up, and then, when LV comes back, go into hiding, especially now that Harry's _relatively_ safe at Hogwart's under DD's protection? Susan (teilani) who truly loves these crazy theories, and hopes to get published herself with a book called "Ickle Duddykins: My Life with Harry Potter" or maybe, "Snivellus: No One Understands Me Excpet My Twins" ;-) From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 31 16:51:24 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 16:51:24 -0000 Subject: Ghosts at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99832 > -Dhyana: > Regarding Nick's captors, you'd think that the people who arrested NHNick > would have to have been wizards or witches, or else he probably would have > been able to escape. Then again, if the people were muggles, but managed > to get his wand away there's not a whole lot he could have done about it. > Actually, I'm really curious about wizards' ability to use wandless magic. Long before Harry knew what he was, he was able to end up on top of the roof of the school cafeteria and remove the glass from the snake pit (SS/PS). Surely NHNick could at least disapparate if he were fleeing muggles. Susan (who'd really like to read speculation about wandless magic). From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 31 17:41:47 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:41:47 -0000 Subject: A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hedwigstalons" wrote: > Hi! > Would anyone out there be able to give me the msg. # of a posting by > Hans (may be from last summer) that talks about heroes and needing to > die (meaning Harry)? I thought the hero _can't_ die, but it seems > that they can - Argh!! Not the fate I want for our Harry!! > > Thanks! > > HedwigsTalons bboy_mn: I'm sure there was a discussion of this subject in the not to distant past, where someone sighted examples from Mythology, but I did an extended search and couldn't find the example you were referring too. The best I could come up with are these examples of discussions of Harry dying, some of which touch on themes of Sacrifice, and death and rebirth, and relate to Tragic Heroes. I'm not sure they will give you any more than you already know. If nothing else, they estabish that Dan Radcliffe didn't invent the notion of Harry dying in the end. ** May 20, 2004- Tragic Hero http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/98908 Nov 16, 2003 - Endings http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85163 Dec 18, 2003 - Alternate Endings (was: Hows Harry going to learn...) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87275 Apr 4, 2004 - How about... this ending? (was: A portrait of Sirius?) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/95121 Aug 4, 2002- Re: Harry's Putative Death http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/42116 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/42051 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/42124 Difficult thread to follow, goes on for days, and split into many subthreads Aug 27, 2003- Voldemort will win http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78982 Interesting theory on the End and the link between V & H. Long Thread Jul 11, 2003- I don't see Harry dying http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/69361 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/69516 Jun 24, 2003- OOP: Re: Why Harry will die http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/62697 very long thread with several tangents, leads to thread below... Jun 29, 2003- OOP: Veil - Gateway of Lost Souls http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/65783 Jan 2, 2003- Harry dying http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49093 Jan 4, 2003 -JKR's quote...upcoming deaths/ Possible Harry 'death' http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49198 Jan 27, 2004- Do we need any more death cases? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/89781 General discussion on death in the books. Now, slightly OFF-Topic- As I was searching I stumbled across this post which was long, informative, fun, and interesting. If you've got some time, it's worth a look. From: "Campbell, Anne-TMC-Rcvg" Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:00 am Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (Was: Book 6 &7 clich?s) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91320 I'll keep searching and see if I can come up with something better. steve/bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon May 31 19:12:56 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 19:12:56 -0000 Subject: Lupin and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: > > Wow, that thing got published? Kneasy, bboy, one of you two better > get crackin and publish some of these great theories that have been > posted here. If a person can get published for _speculating_ about > some other author's characters and storylines, especially considering > what a cash cow HP is, then wow, we could all be as rich as the Queen! > Kneasy: You mean that you'd pay to read my manic burblings? How very interesting. My pension is assured. I've dipped into this Official Guide and it's even more paranoid than anyone on site. Good fun, but everyone and everything is suspect or a devious clue. You end up going round in ever-diminishing circles until you vanish up your own fundament. If you distrust everything what can you base your theories on? You need solid ground somewhere. Susan: > But Siriusly, I agree with whoever (so sorry, I can't find that post) > said that it would be unbelievably cruel for one of Harry's parents > to be alive all this time. To leave Harry with the Dursleys, to let > him grow up with no friends, no loved ones, no support, only for him > to find out that one of his parents was alive the whole time would be > enough, IMO, to send anyone over the edge of sanity! Plus, once LV > became Vapor!Mort (I love that one) what would be the point? The > entire wizarding community's celebrating, LV doesn't get any of his > strength back until Harry's 11, why hide for ten peaceful years?! > Why not enjoy watching Harry grow up, and then, when LV comes back, > go into hiding, especially now that Harry's _relatively_ safe at > Hogwart's under DD's protection? > Kneasy: This Switching Spell stuff is a bit of a frost so far as I'm concerned. So far as canon goes it's used to swaps bits of things, not entire bodies. If it worked as the theory describes, why hasn't Voldy used it? Bloody sight better than being stuck above Quirrell's back collar stud. Transfiguration is unlikely to work either. James might *look* like Lupin but does that mean he'd be a werewolf too? I doubt it; he'd be a surface copy, he'd have to get bitten by a werewolf to carry it off convincingly. And as you say, what would be the point? James wasn't Voldy's target, was he? Why hide? No point at all that I can see. He'd need a damn good reason to hide away for 12 years. OK, I can come up with some fanciful ideas - James as coward; James as Voldy's helper; James as Lily's murderer - but I can't work up any enthusiasm for them. Hmm. I don't know though... Have to think about this. Murderer, eh? I wnder... Kneasy From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon May 31 19:26:47 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 19:26:47 -0000 Subject: A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99836 >Hedwigstalons wrote: > Hi! > Would anyone out there be able to give me the msg. # of a posting by > Hans (may be from last summer) that talks about heroes and needing to > die (meaning Harry)? I thought the hero _can't_ die, but it seems > that they can - Argh!! Not the fate I want for our Harry!! > Kneasy: In fiction (and reality) heroes quite often come to a sticky end. It's one of the more depressing aspects of being a hero. Some pop their clogs in a mutual blood-fest with the arch enemy (Arthur, El Cid), some cop it in the neck from another monster at a later date later (Beowulf). Neri now: It is certainly true that the hero can die, but it depends a lot on the genre. Mythological heroes (which Kneasy mostly mentioned, some of which I snipped) usually die in the end of the story (although there are some notable exceptions - Odysseus, Perseus, Rama). In fairytales, OTOH, the hero almost always lives happily ever after. Modern (last 200 years) adventure literature, mainly for children but also for grown-ups, is modeled more after the fairytale genre than the myth genre, and the hero usually survives. Even when he "dies" he might still be resurrected (Sherlock Holmes being the famous example). This is also true for Science Fiction, which includes many cases of "universe building" more impressive than the Potterverse. The style of HP is typical to this kind of literature. It is certainly not myth or "modern myth" like LOTR. If I had to bet on Harry's chances based on the genre's statistics I'd say he has about 95% chances to live. Neri From Malady579 at hotmail.com Mon May 31 19:47:50 2004 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 19:47:50 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: the Lion and the Serpant Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99837 Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19 The Lion and the Serpent The chapter starts with Harry finally feeling hope and optimism for the future. The Dumbledore's Army has successful kept their existence a secret, and that fact alone brings Harry's spirits up in the defiance of Umbridge and the Ministry. He was also very proud of his students. Even those he though weak like Colin Creevey and Neville were improving in the class and now in possession of higher defense skills. There were logistical problems with the group working around three house schedules and three Quidditch schedules, but Hermione devised a rather brilliant scheme of having an especially charmed Galleon to reveal the date and time of the meetings, and when Harry changes the time, the coins burn warm in their pockets so the others know. Upon explaining her idea to the group, they were once again in awe of her skills as a witch, and Terry Boot finally asked a question that everyone has been wondering. (At least me, since that was my first question to HPfGU.) Why isn't Hermione in Ravenclaw? Hermione did not really explain but said that the hat considered it. (Which I find an annoyingly simple answer.) Harry pointed out that the galleon idea is very similar to Death Eaters and their marks on their arms, to which Hermione explained she got the burning idea from them but she chose to use metal instead of skin. Much to the group's relief, I bet. The first Quidditch match was coming close to commencing. The first was a match between Gryffindor and Slytherin, with the usual build up of aggression and out and out bullying. McGonagall made a point to tell Harry and Ron that she fully enjoys having the Quidditch Cup in her office and had no intention of relinquishing it to Snape. She let them off from homework that week, but Snape was not as kind and refused to admit the Slytherins were being backhanded and abusing to the Gryffindors before the game. Practice for the game was encouraging, but Ron, as the keeper, was still a bit green. He was slowly improving but he still got stage fright from the taunts from the other team. Harry, having developed rather tough skin over time, was a bit worried about Ron since he had never had to endure it. The day of the match arrives, and Ron is very nervous to the point he looked pale and sweaty. Harry and Ron went down to breakfast and tried to eat. The hall was dressed for a Quidditch game, but Slytherin green and silver was always wearing silver badges in the shape of crowns. Neither Harry nor Ron could read what they said before they sat down to eat. Ron proceeded to berate himself for ever putting himself in his situation, but Harry tried to be reassuring him that it was first day jitters and praised one of Ron's blocks at yesterday's practice. Ron, meekly, informed his that was an accident. He had just fallen off his broom and was trying to get back on. Harry tried to still praise that accident, but Ron's confidence was still not raised. Ginny and Hermione came in and sat down besides them, and Luna soon followed much to the halls amusement. Her presence usually is not so obvious, but today she had a life-sized lion's head perched on her own. She announced she was cheering for Gryffindor today, and poked the hat, which let out a very convincingly realistic roar causing all around her to jump violently. Pleased with her hat's impact, she added that she wanted it to chew up a snake in its mouth, but she did not have time. She then wish Ron luck, but seemed to miss that he fellow teammate Harry was sitting beside him. (Hmmmm...) Angelina came up with Alicia and Katie to inform the boys to soon head to the changing rooms. Harry rose to leave, but was pulled aside by Hermione who hissed at Harry to not let Ron read the Slytherin's badges. Ron, lost in his own world of despair, meandered up to the pair, so Hermione rose up and kissed him lightly on his cheek and wished him good luck. She tacked on a good luck for Harry too, but with no kiss. (Hmmmm...) On their way out, Harry finally caught what the Slytherin's badges were saying. "Weasley is our King." He had no idea what they were getting at with those badges, but he rightly deduced they were up to no good. Angelina gave the normal pep talk with new information that Slytherin has new beaters. Crabbe and Goyle have replaced them, which she observed Slytherin went for brut strength over brains it seems. Harry confirmed her suspicions. The team rose to go to the pitch, mounted their brooms, and the game started. Jordan was still in charge of the games commentary with his normal amount of additional information. Harry was listening to the commentary when he heard a new chant in the background. Lee did too, and paused to listen closer. It was the Slytherins singing the newly versed song in honor of their badges. A jingle in tribute to the theme of Ron as their king. Harry's anger, in his still overly emotional state, rose quickly and he went to Ron side to see how he was fairing. Not too well since the song swelled louder as the quaffle got closer to the goal posts causing Ron to botch a block. Slytherin reveled in their achievement, and sang even louder. The song was not very nice to Ron, of course, saying he was born in a bin, and can't save a thing, and that is why he will cause Slytherin to win. Angelina finally saw Harry lost in the anguish of his friend, and called for Harry to get back to the game so this thing can end. Harry began searching for the snitch again and discovered the Slytherin's own players were also singing the song. The game proceeded with forty - ten score in favor of Slytherin, when Harry finally saw the snitch. Malfoy saw that Harry saw it, and they both went after it. Harry, of course, got it in the end, but Crabbe made a cheap shot at Harry with the bludgers and hit his across the back. Hooch was furious and told Slytherin off. Malfoy landed next to Harry trying to pick a fight by insulting Ron, Molly, and Arthur, but Harry was not biting. By this time George and Fred had heard Malfoy's tirade and were straining to break the grip their teammates had on them to keep them off of Malfoy. Hooch was still yelling at Crabbe and did not see all this though. It was when Malfoy insulted Harry's dead mother, when Harry finally snapped. Harry and George lunged for Malfoy beat his as much as they could. Hooch finally saw the ruckus and stopped it. George and Harry were told to go to McGonagall's office, and Malfoy was whimpering on the ground with a bloody nose. McGonagall was furious with them and told them of course Malfoy was going to provoke them. He just lost. She asked what provoked them, and they said he insulted the Weasleys' parents and Harry's mother. She started to say that they should have left Hooch to sort it all out, but she was interrupted by Umbridge with her "hem hem." She was standing in the doorway in a green tweed cloak and an evil grin on her face. She and McGonagall had their usually tense but political tightrope conversation, with Umbridge producing another Educational Decree (number 25 now). McGonagall exclaimed her frustration with *that* development. Umbridge was pleased to inform McGonagall that she was the one that brought this one on for going over Umbridge's head by going to Dumbledore to reform the Gryffindor Quidditch team. The decree said that the High Inquisitor has all authority over "punishments, sanctions, and removal of privileges...and the power to change any given from teachers." So Umbridge decided to ban Harry and George from Quidditch for life. She said that should do the trick to make them learn their lesson. Umbridge threw on Fred too since, as she reasoned, he would have been beating Malfoy up too if he teammates had not been holding him back. She confiscated their broomsticks, and turned to leave saying she was actually being nice since she did, after all, let the other teammates keep playing. Angelina did not take the news well. The unfairness of it all sank in when they learned that Crabbe only got lines for his misconduct. The team went to bed leaving Harry and Hermione in the common room. Ron finally entered having gone on a long walk and announced he wanted to resign. Harry informed him that if he quit then there would only be three players on the Gryffindor team. Ron paused his resigning, but both Harry and Ron were quit down. Harry's optimism at the beginning of the chapter is completely changed to match Ron's despair at the end. Hermione chose this moment to inform them that Hagrid was finally back. Questions: 1) To those with power that are not clever, the clever are a bane to their existence. The powerful are really powerless to stop their creativity, so do they do it to try to limit it or force them to subject themselves to their power? Do they right so many laws to reign in their cleverness to keep them from overthrowing them, or do they do it to break their spirit? 2) Hermione finally revealed she was almost in Ravenclaw. This has been a fan question for a long time. Did JKR add that bit in there to answer our question, or was is a natural progression in the book? Or another way of asking, why have they not asked this before? Or are the houses integrating more now and these questions often come up? 3) Where was Dumbledore during the Quidditch match? Is he trying to stay out of trouble and not give Umbridge cause to hate him more, or is he using this "away" time to get things done with the OoP? 4) SHIP question: Luna makes a point to wish Ron luck for the Quidditch match and Hermione gives him a kiss. They both pretty much ignored Harry. Is this a foreshadow of a cat fight to come? Who would win? 5) Slytherin put a lot of time and effort in their tactics against Ron and the Gryffindor team. They spent many hours creating badges, writing the song, and teaching others to chant and sing together...a feat in and of itself since Slytherin is not thought of as clever, team workers, artistic, and able to sing on pitch (ok that one is assumed by me) Does this show a true willingness on Slytherin's side to actually work as a group for the good of a common goal even if that goal is for poor reasons? 6) While we are readers, and the other three houses, hate the tactics used my Slytherin at the Quidditch match, it is actually very effective and ingenious. Worse is said at RL games today to the opposing team. Can Slytherin use this newfound talent for good instead of personal gain? 7) Umbridge, once again, has proved herself quit capable of being one sided, bias, manipulative, and very politically minded. Her desire for power over the situation at Hogwarts has shown to be more for herself than for the good of the community. Is her lack of confidence in herself and lack of respect from others fueling this rage about her seemingly lack of power, or can her thirst for power ever be quenched? 8) Does she favor Slytherin because they have buttered her toast better than the other, submit themselves better than the others, or because she has alliances with their parents that she upholds? Or is it because they have ideals that she too holds? 9) When the punishment out weighs the crime, does the punishment ever work in reforming the criminal? Or does it just inflame them more to reform the system? Can punishment really ever work on those smart enough and clever enough to fight the injustice of the system? 10) Once Lee Jordan graduates, who should take over as commentator? (I am cheering for Luna for the sheer amusement of it all...) Melody NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67817 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85829 as well as OotP Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database" From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 31 20:24:15 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:24:15 -0000 Subject: Lupin and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99838 > > Susan: > > But Siriusly, I agree with whoever (so sorry, I can't find that post) > > said that it would be unbelievably cruel for one of Harry's parents > > to be alive all this time. To leave Harry with the Dursleys, to let > > him grow up with no friends, no loved ones, no support, only for him > > to find out that one of his parents was alive the whole time would be > > enough, IMO, to send anyone over the edge of sanity! Plus, once LV > > became Vapor!Mort (I love that one) what would be the point? The > > entire wizarding community's celebrating, LV doesn't get any of his > > strength back until Harry's 11, why hide for ten peaceful years?! > > Why not enjoy watching Harry grow up, and then, when LV comes back, > > go into hiding, especially now that Harry's _relatively_ safe at > > Hogwart's under DD's protection? > > > > Kneasy: > This Switching Spell stuff is a bit of a frost so far as I'm concerned. > So far as canon goes it's used to swaps bits of things, not entire bodies. > If it worked as the theory describes, why hasn't Voldy used it? Bloody > sight better than being stuck above Quirrell's back collar stud. > Transfiguration is unlikely to work either. James might *look* like Lupin > but does that mean he'd be a werewolf too? I doubt it; he'd be a surface > copy, he'd have to get bitten by a werewolf to carry it off convincingly. > > And as you say, what would be the point? James wasn't Voldy's target, > was he? Why hide? No point at all that I can see. He'd need a damn > good reason to hide away for 12 years. OK, I can come up with > some fanciful ideas - James as coward; James as Voldy's helper; James > as Lily's murderer - but I can't work up any enthusiasm for them. > > Hmm. I don't know though... Have to think about this. Murderer, eh? > I wnder... > Susan now: Plus, if James was alive all this time, then he would have known that Sirius didn't murder him, because obviously, if Sirius murdered him, he'd be dead. And he'd also of course know that it was Peter and not Sirius who was the traitor. If James were still alive, I doubt he'd let one of his best friends spend 12 years in a horrible prison for a crime he obviously didn't commit. However, in light of all the ESE! theories, I often find myself thinking that if someone besides Peter knew that Sirius didn't betray the Potters, this person could still believe that Sirius did indeed murder Peter (and inadvertantly the muggles)as an act of revenge, which would mean that Sirius would still have ended up in prison. So that would fit nicely with an ESE!Lupin, or especially a wishy-washy! Lupin, and he wouldn't have to feel guilty for letting his friend rot in prison for 12 years because he could still think him guilty of murder. I've often thought about that in the context of an Imperio'd!Sirius. Anyone who knew him and knew him to be best friends with James could buy the fact that he may have been imperio'd, but he'd still be guilty of Peter's murder. Susan, who obviously thinks about Sirius way too much :-) From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 31 20:36:15 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:36:15 -0000 Subject: A Hero's Death - Basis in mythology?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > >Hedwigstalons wrote: > > Hi! > > Would anyone out there be able to give me the msg. # of a posting by > > Hans (may be from last summer) that talks about heroes and needing > to > > die (meaning Harry)? I thought the hero _can't_ die, but it seems > > that they can - Argh!! Not the fate I want for our Harry!! > > Neri now: > It is certainly true that the hero can die, but it depends a lot on > the genre. Mythological heroes (which Kneasy mostly mentioned, some > of which I snipped) usually die in the end of the story (although > there are some notable exceptions - Odysseus, Perseus, Rama). In > fairytales, OTOH, the hero almost always lives happily ever after. > Modern (last 200 years) adventure literature, mainly for children but > also for grown-ups, is modeled more after the fairytale genre than > the myth genre, and the hero usually survives. Even when he "dies" he > might still be resurrected (Sherlock Holmes being the famous > example). This is also true for Science Fiction, which includes many > cases of "universe building" more impressive than the Potterverse. > The style of HP is typical to this kind of literature. It is > certainly not myth or "modern myth" like LOTR. If I had to bet on > Harry's chances based on the genre's statistics I'd say he has about > 95% chances to live. > Susan now: I'd also like to add, particularly in light of the Sci-fi reference, that we are dealing with wizards here, and as many posters have pointed out, they have a very long lifespan, and well, magical powers! Surely they're more resilient than regular old muggles. In SS, Hagrid roars at the Dursleys for telling Harry that his parents died in a car crash, and the way he says it always made me think that just the notion of a regular old car crash being able to kill two accomplished, powerful wizards was ridiculous. As in, it would take way more than a simple car crash to kill them. Plus, there's all that new info re: graveyards and body parts, etc. OT, I know, but in Wm Shatner's series of books that pick up after he died in ST:Generations(the movie), he has borg renegades pump his freshly dead body full of nano technology so that he is literally resurrected and can continue having adventures. Maybe that's why another graveyard scene(besides if GoF I mean)will be important in 6 & 7. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 31 21:11:43 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 21:11:43 -0000 Subject: chapter 19 discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99840 Melody wrote: > Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix > Chapter 19 > The Lion and the Serpent > Questions: > > > 2) Hermione finally revealed she was almost in Ravenclaw. This has > been a fan question for a long time. Did JKR add that bit in there to > answer our question, or was is a natural progression in the book? Or > another way of asking, why have they not asked this before? Or are > the houses integrating more now and these questions often come up? Potioncat: As we are starting to see the other houses more, it feels natural for this to come up. As many of us have speculated, some of our favorites might seem to fit better in a different house. One has to wonder if the Sorting Hat looks at which House would be best for the student or which House would the student best serve. Sort of...here's a clever, brave one; Gryffindor could use a clever first year. > > > > 5) Slytherin put a lot of time and effort in their tactics against > Ron and the Gryffindor team. They spent many hours creating badges, > writing the song, and teaching others to chant and sing together...a > feat in and of itself since Slytherin is not thought of as clever, > team workers, artistic, and able to sing on pitch (ok that one is > assumed by me) Does this show a true willingness on Slytherin's side > to actually work as a group for the good of a common goal even if that > goal is for poor reasons? Potioncat: I never picked up on this one. But it fits what the Sorting House says, "Slytherin can make you great," "find their true friends," sorry, I'm paraphrasing But the Sorting Hat speaks about the House itself helping its fellows to succeed. It sounds like the type of organization that networks heavily and pulls together for their combined goals. And certainly, winning the Quidditch Cup or the House Cup are important to all members of Slytherin. > x > > 8) Does she favor Slytherin because they have buttered her toast > better than the other, submit themselves better than the others, or > because she has alliances with their parents that she upholds? Or is it because they have ideals that she too holds? Potioncat: We know of at least one Ravenclaw whose mother works well with Umbridge. And I would think there could be some in each House. But if the Slytherins felt Umbridge was the one with the power, they would support her. And she would eat that up! I wonder how the Slytherin students view Snape's quiet disdain of her? Even if he never disparages her, he doesn't speak well of her or help her either. Potioncat From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon May 31 22:22:38 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:22:38 -0000 Subject: New Clue - Graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99841 Naama said: If there was some other man at GH and Voldemort had killed him (or, in fact, cursed him in any way), then his "echo" or the echo of the curse would have emerged *between* James and Lily. Snow: If this is a true statement, then where is the echo of what happened to Harry that should have been in front of Lily's echo? I had wondered about that when I saw that the hand for wormtail had been produced as an echo. Wouldn't we have at least heard screams? Naama: Since that wasn't the case, and there was somebody else in GH, he must have been a collaborator. Which kind of makes the whole dramatic secret keeper, betrayal, and Voldemort's attack a bit redundant, no? Snow: As DD would say: Yes and No. It's a clue that without all the pieces is nothing more than a fragmented bit of information. All we truly know is that Voldemort, Lily, Harry and a man's voice telling Lily to run were at Godric's Hollow. The rest is supposition. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon May 31 23:55:20 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:55:20 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: the Lion and the Serpant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody" wrote: > Questions: > > 1) To those with power that are not clever, the clever are a bane to > their existence. The powerful are really powerless to stop their > creativity, so do they do it to try to limit it or force them to > subject themselves to their power? Do they right so many laws to > reign in their cleverness to keep them from overthrowing them, or do > they do it to break their spirit? Meri: Are you talking about Umbridge here? That's quite a quote! Anyway, I would say definately yes, Umbridge is trying to break Harry's spirit. From the "I must not tell lies" punnishment to the Quidditch ban to confiscating his Firebolt to eventually sacking Hagrid, Umbridge manages to take away most of the things that Harry loves about Hogwarts. Harry is her target, whether this is because of her love for Fudge and the MoM or because of her secret Death Eater identity I don't know, but she states from the begining that Harry is telling attention seeking lies about LV, and for her beloved Corneilius to make it out of this unscathed, Harry must be broken. Of course, our young Scarred One is much stronger than she expects, and almost everything she does just pisses him off more. And his anger certainly helped Harry survive fifth year. > 3) Where was Dumbledore during the Quidditch match? Is he trying to > stay out of trouble and not give Umbridge cause to hate him more, or > is he using this "away" time to get things done with the OoP? Meri: Perhaps if DD was there, he feared that LV would attempt to control Harry, which was basically why DD avoided Harry for the whole year. Perhaps it is unusual for the Headmaster to attend games so early in the season, and this would be evidence for a deeper relationship between Harry and DD. > 4) SHIP question: Luna makes a point to wish Ron luck for the > Quidditch match and Hermione gives him a kiss. They both pretty much > ignored Harry. Is this a foreshadow of a cat fight to come? Who > would win? Meri: I don't usually SHIP, but I see Ron and Hermione as an almost definate lock. Luna I think will end up with Harry, as she is the one who gets Harry to feel something other than grief and pain at the end of OotP. But a cat fight between Hermione and Luna? Hermione wins, no contest. She isn't about to let her beloved, redheaded, Weasley man go, is she? > 5) Slytherin put a lot of time and effort in their tactics against > Ron and the Gryffindor team. They spent many hours creating badges, > writing the song, and teaching others to chant and sing together...a > feat in and of itself since Slytherin is not thought of as clever, > team workers, artistic, and able to sing on pitch (ok that one is > assumed by me) Does this show a true willingness on Slytherin's side > to actually work as a group for the good of a common goal even if that > goal is for poor reasons? Meri: Well, ambition is one of Slytherin House's qualities, and if their ambition was to humiliate Ron and make him loose his concentration and fail at Keeping, then they certainly did anything to achieve their ends, didn't they? > 6) While we are readers, and the other three houses, hate the tactics > used my Slytherin at the Quidditch match, it is actually very > effective and ingenious. Worse is said at RL games today to the > opposing team. Can Slytherin use this newfound talent for good > instead of personal gain? Meri: I am pretty sure it was Phineas Nigellus who said that one of the things that set Slytherins apart is the fact that the Slytherins will always save their own skins before sacrificing themselves to a cause. I join many of my list members in hoping that we will one day see a complicated!Slytherin which will bring about the good in the house. > 9) When the punishment out weighs the crime, does the punishment ever > work in reforming the criminal? Or does it just inflame them more to > reform the system? Can punishment really ever work on those smart > enough and clever enough to fight the injustice of the system? Meri: Umbridge making Harry write lines in his own blood only inspired him to defy Umbridge by teaching the DA, but it wouldn't have mattered what she gave him for punnishment there, because he knew that he was right about LV and that Umbridge was wrong. Same with the Quidditch ban. But, if I may take the discussion back to a kinder, gentler, more innocent time: in Sorcerer's Stone, when Harry and Hermione are punnished over the dragon incident, they both feel like they had been given what they deserved (though I thought fifty points each from Gryffindor was a little harsh, especially because Malfoy only got twenty) and this did in fact, change their behavior for a time. Harry quit investigating things, and didn't break any more rules till he was sure the Stone was in danger. But again, no matter what Umbridge did to him, Harry was gonna fight the injustice of it. As he well should have. > 10) Once Lee Jordan graduates, who should take over as commentator? > (I am cheering for Luna for the sheer amusement of it all...) Meri: How about Colin and Dennis Creevey? They get so thoroughly overexcited about everything that they'd surely be funny. Or maybe Dean Thomas the West Ham fan ("Red card, Madam Hooch! Red card, miss!"). From ajisonline at lycos.com Mon May 31 23:04:08 2004 From: ajisonline at lycos.com (AM Junkie) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:04:08 -0000 Subject: Priori Incamtatum Goof? (was Re: Lupin Loved Lily) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99845 A snippet for those who still believe in the Remus/James switcheroo theory: "Hold on for your father" doesn't necessarily mean "Hold on, your father is on his way..." It could also mean, "Hold on, for your father's sake" as in, "Your father would want you to hold fast". Or consider this: maybe Lily "sensed" that Lupin (or his body, rather)would come back in Harry's life soon, so she was urging Harry to hold on until he got there. From ajisonline at lycos.com Mon May 31 23:11:00 2004 From: ajisonline at lycos.com (AM Junkie) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:11:00 -0000 Subject: Lupin and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99846 Kneasy wrote: > "And as you say, what would be the point? James wasn't > Voldy's target, was he?" I'm not so sure that's true. Lucius Malfoy muttered to Harry about his parents being "meddlesome", which seems to indicate the Potter parents did something or knew something that made them targets themselves. From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon May 31 23:13:36 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 19:13:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 19: the Lion and the Serpant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 99847 | From: Melody [mailto:Malady579 at hotmail.com] | Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 15:48 PM Then you say: | 4) SHIP question: Luna makes a point to wish Ron luck for the | Quidditch match and Hermione gives him a kiss. They both pretty much | ignored Harry. Is this a foreshadow of a cat fight to come? Who | would win? [Lee] I don' know...I think maybe Luna realized this was Ron's first real game; she knows what Harry can do, but sees/senses that Ron is plum scared and nervous and gives him a little extra encouragement. She probably just figures Ron really does need good luck to get him over his jitters. As far as Hermione is concerned, well...that may be the beginning of a bit more interest in him...and a bit of empathy, too. Lee :-) (Who would love something like that lion head as a door guard!) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at optonline.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at arrl.net Walk beside me, and be my friend.