What's in it for Snape? Finding motive...

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 97408

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> > YES.  When I argued—quite strongly—that Snape's teaching methods 
> > are horrendous, uncalled for, abusive and likely ineffective, I 
> > was most definitely thinking of him in a real life teaching 
> > situation.  I DO still believe Snape's methods are *likely* NOT 
> > the best way of reaching Harry and **definitely** NOT the best 
> > way of reaching Neville ["reaching" meaning, effective in 
> > helping them to learn].  In real life Snape's abusive teaching 
> > methods [remember, JKR said that herself!] would be cause for 
> > action.  But this **is** fiction, and as you noted above, 
> > Snape's role in these stories is to provide Harry with his Daily 
> > Dose of Misery.  I would do well to remember that distinction 
> > when Snape pisses me off.
 

Kneasy: 
> Abusive? Depends on your definitions.
> Horrendous? Uncalled for? Ineffective? Surely not.
> 
> IMO our Snapey knows exactly how far he can go before stepping
> over the line into overkill. His insults and manipulation of 
> student behaviour seems to be nicely calculated to encourage 
> the "I'll show him!" response rather than the "rabbit frozen in 
> the headlights" reaction.


Siriusly Snapey Susan:
We've gone round & round on this one, and I suspect we'll never see 
eye to eye.  But let me get started on defending my position a bit.  

First off--something I wrote in about 3 days ago--this bit from a 
JKR interview:
> **What about Snape?**
> Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I 
> myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we 
> are kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that
> teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular 
> teacher does abuse his power.

I'm not really sure how one can get around JKR's own 
words "sadistic" and "this particular teacher does abuse his power".

Now that I've got that out, let me go on to say what I **LIKE** 
about Snape's teaching (much of which you also have mentioned).  
Yes, I like parts of Snape's teaching!  

1) He sets his standards high and *explains* them right off the bat
2) He tells his students just what he expects them to be able to do 
in order to achieve a passing grade on an OWL exam
3) He tells them straight out that he takes very few students into 
NEWT-level potions classes and what they need to do if they want to 
be there
4) He appears to be VERY organized & prepared for each class
5) He himself seems to truly be a master at potions and to 
understand potion-making in great depth
6) He does not tolerate goofing off in class when there is serious 
work to be done

That is a LOT to speak on his behalf, is it not?  If I might risk 
bragging a bit, these are the kinds of things I prided myself upon 
when I taught teenagers their social studies.  (Well, I wasn't the 
master that Snape is, but the rest of it. <g>)

Kneasy: 
> It's no coincidence that Harry and Neville bear the brunt of his 
> ire, not only are they the two candidates for Prophecy glory, but 
> they are also the most frustratingly inept (from his point of 
> view) students in the class. Harry and Neville can't or won't even 
> follow simple instructions that are written out for them. 
> Everybody else does it better on most occasions, but these two - 
> sheesh! Snape must be in dispair - here he is, having joined 
> forces with the Order so as to bring Voldy down, and the supposed 
> saviours of the WW can't cope with a simple recipe or two. 

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
Here is, not surprisingly, where we diverge, Kneasy.  As I have 
stated several times in the past, I have more concern over Snape's 
treatment of Neville than of Harry, but let me have at this a bit.  

>From CLASS ONE, Snape treated Harry nastily, embarrassing him, 
accusing him of things he didn't even care about [we know Harry 
doesn't crave celebrity, yet Snape implies that he does, for 
instance].  Harry **is** paying attention in that first class.  Why 
does Snape stare at him w/ hatred & loathing from the start, feel 
compelled to humiliate him from the start?  I know, I know, it 
likely **is** part of DD's plan of ensuring that Harry doesn't 
become big-headed, BUT Snape clearly goes farther with it than he 
needs to.  Why not wait 'til Harry does something stupid?  Why not 
wait 'til Harry forgets a step?  Instead, he starts it all when 
Harry really & truly has done nothing wrong.  Do I blame Snape for 
this inappropriateness?  You bet I do.  He is smart enough to have 
done better!  I think part of Snape's treatment of Harry is an act, 
but I think part of the time he really can't control his loathing.  
THAT is where I blame him.  

We've already discussed previously times when Harry really does goof 
up and deserves to be called on it, but we've also mentioned times 
when Snape is unfair--like when he "accidentally" broke Harry's 
potion flask that day when he DID get it right and just AFTER 
Hermione had cleaned up his cauldron.  Coincidence?  You'll never 
convince me, not with that sneer on Snape's face.

Now, Harry does have more of the fight back attitude than Neville 
does, and in the END, it may work out that Harry can begin to learn 
under Snape's teaching style (assuming he goes on with potions!).  
Particularly, I think, if someone ELSE can convince Harry that he 
MUST do so [perhaps by reminding him of how he didn't succeed at 
occlumency].

On to Neville.  With Neville, I think Snape is just WRONG.  If, as 
you have suggested, Snape knows & believes that these two young men 
have the greatest need for really, truly learning this material, 
then he SHOULD go out of his way to be sure that they learn.  YES, 
I'm saying he might [gasp!] have to change his methods a bit to 
accomplish this!  I suspect this is where you might think I'm 
crossing that line back over to RW standards again.  But hear me 
out.  If, right here in JKR's fictional WW, Snape believes that it 
is vital that Harry & Neville learn potions, he should evaluate 
whether that is happening.  With Harry, we know it's complicated by 
the "front" Snape needs to keep up for Draco and other DE kids. 
Harry is also pretty tough and, as I said above, might actually come 
around to being able to learn "in spite of Snape".  With Neville, 
though, Snape should be able to see that his methods are 
backfiring.  

Neville came to Hogwarts having next to no confidence in himself.  
He bumbles and falters and screws up time & time again.  With a kid 
like that, if you begin by lambasting him in front of others, if you 
humiliate him, if you add fuel to his own fire, what do you think is 
going to happen?  Neville's NOT going to get that "I'll show him" 
fight back kind of feeling; he is going to get that "rabbit in the 
headlights" look you mentioned.  He'll expect himself to fail and it 
will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Neville is NOT Harry.

Lots of people have faulted Lupin for the Boggart!Snape thing w/ 
Neville (I don't).  What *I* think was totally inappropriate in that 
scene was Snape's telling Lupin--in front of the whole class--that 
he'd better beware because Neville Longbottom was in the class.  How 
dare he!  What reason does he have to humiliate Neville in someone 
else's class, why does he need to try to set up Lupin to also expect 
Neville's failure?  It's THIS kind of thing which makes me say that 
Snape does not understand how to teach a kid like Neville.  Add to 
it that Snape allegedly believes it's essential that Neville learn, 
and I very much do fault him.

You said it yourself--
> ... he particularly knows that emotions are counter-productive in 
> mastering the skills that Harry has to absorb.

If he knows that emotions are counter-productive, then why does he 
do so much that AROUSES emotional reactions in these two?  Snape's a 
smart guy--why can't he see this?  And if anyone were to say, "Well, 
he does see, but he doesn't care," then I'm right back to this:  If 
he truly believes these two need to learn, he SHOULD care.

Siriusly Snapey Susan