Perchance to dream...

[tub_of_earwax]

No: HPFGUIDX 97544

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "caesian" <caesian at y...> wrote:
> Kneasy wrote:
> > I was wondering - why bother to recount a dream in canon and 
then tell 
> > us that the dreamer never remembers it? Such an odd dream, too.
> > 
> > PS/SS (yes, waaaay back near the beginning) at the very end of 
chap. 7, 
> > Harry has a dream. He wears a talking turban (Quirrells) which 
tells 
> > him that he must switch to Slytherin (his destiny, it seems) and 
which 
> > he can't get off; a laughing Malfoy morphs into Snape, who has a 
high 
> > cold laugh (anyone heard Snape laugh before?) and it all ends in 
a 
> > flash of green light.
> > 
> > Well, now. Anyone believe in the divination of dreams? 'Cos this 
one's 
> > ripe for Trelawney's inimitable interpretations. This is Harry's 
first 
> > night in Hogwarts; he sees Snape for the first time just 2 pages 
> > earlier, gets  told by the Sorting Hat that he's Slytherin 
material 6 
> > pages earlier and has no idea what a green flash signifies. 
Talking 
> > turbans must be a bit of a  worry too.
> > 
> > Just how many hints has JKR slipped past our guard with this 
one? We 
> > know nothing about talking turbans, Snape or green flashes at 
this 
> > stage either. But before the end of the book one of the 
constituents of 
> > the dream is explained. Voldy is in there disguised  as a short 
back 
> > and sides.
> > 
> > What to  make of the rest?
> > Lots of fun possibilities, that's what.
> > Tentatively I'd lean towards intimations of the future, maybe 
chances 
> > of 70/30.
> > 
> > Slytherin is his destiny. Lots of posters have been looking for 
a good 
> > Slytherin, but this seems a bit extreme. Rumours of someone 
swapping 
> > houses, too. I keep remembering - that Prophecy - it said he 
would be 
> > Voldy's equal; never mentioned him being his opposite. And the 
Hat "You 
> > could be great, you know [...] ..and Slytherin will help you on 
the way 
> > to greatness.."
> > No mention of greatness allied with Gryffindor, or did I miss 
something?
> > 
> > Malfoy morphs into Snape - JKR did say that one of the students 
becomes 
> > a teacher, but  really; you don't think? Surely not.
> > 
> > Snape laughs. What a concept! A smile like the nameplate on a 
coffin 
> > perhaps, but laughter? Something very, very bad has just 
happened. Or 
> > is it will happen?
> > 
> > And a green flash. Again -  was or will  be? Are Snape and  the 
green 
> > flash connected? Has our Sevvy been/will be a bad boy?
> > 
> > This little vignette is glossed over with the phrase "Perhaps 
Harry had 
> > eaten a bit too much..." Or perhaps it has something to do with 
Voldy's 
> > presence making itself felt for the first time since Godric's 
Hollow.
> > 
> > Kneasy
> 
> 


> Caesian responds:
> I was just reading this passage about 2 minutes before your post - 
talk about divination.  I 
> think you are correct that the dream is meaningful, but there are 
two points I disagree 
> with.  Harry does understand the flash of green light, and even 
the high-pitched cackle of 
> laughter - because he recalls them after Hagrid describes his 
parents death earlier in the 
> book.  *That* moment was the first time he had heard the laugh, 
but he had remembered 
> the green flash of light even when he was at the Dursleys, and 
associated it with his 
> parents death - although then he believed it was a car crash.  
Second, I think that it is 
> clear that Malfoy > Snape > LV (or Snape / LV), so that Snape is 
no longer literal Snape 
> when the laughter wakes Harry up.  I'm not sure what this 
progression indicates.. (levels of 
> annoyance?)  
> 
> What bothers me is why the turban, which Harry is wearing in the 
dream, wants Harry to 
> transfer to Slytherin.  Now, personally I think this could not be 
good for Harry, but 
> Slytherins seem to think it's good for them.  Why would his enemy 
(the turban has LV in it, 
> afterall) suggest he transfer to Slytherin?  Why not suggest he go 
wander about the 
> forbidden forest or take a long walk off a short parapet?  When 
Harry doesn't agree, the 
> turban gets heavier and heavier, then tightens painfully.  This 
certainly seems to portend 
> Harry's struggles in future - as his burden is getting heavier 
each book.  It also suggests 
> that Harry's choices to resist the Slytherin viewpoint are a most 
critical part of his struggle 
> - if he could be reduced to a non-threat simply by choosing to 
transfer to Slytherin, that 
> suggests that LV would be wiser to court him that kill his friends.
> 
> And speaking of divination among the students, I'm still trying to 
figure out whether it was 
> Lavendar or Parvati who realized that Harry would ask Parvati to 
the Yule Ball before he did 
> - although they, Trelawny-like, failed to foresee the reason 
behind or import of the 
> envisioned outcome.
> 
> And BTW, as for Madam Rosmerta's magical metabolism,  that cream-
sauce comment was 
> intended as completely innocent! :)  Powers of the subconcious!
> 
> Caesian

Now Me:

Cool question-post Kneasy, I never paid much attention to this 
dream, until now. Here are my two knuts: 

The reason for the dream (as Freud would tell you if he cuold rise 
from the dead - or was a ghost) is because Harry is kind of bothered 
by the fact that the hat wanted to put him in Slytherin when he 
earlier had heard from Hagrid that every bad wizard came from 
Slytherin, or that there are no good slytherin's or something to 
that extent (either way, him being in slytherin when judging only on 
that info is not good, he deduces). So I think the turban is a 
representation of the hat, only then with not the brains of the four 
founders in it, but the brain of Lord Voldemort. Lord Voldemort 
would want Harry in Slytherin because he'd much rather have Harry on 
his side than against him, as Harry is obviously a weak point to LV 
and a treath, a powerful wizard etc. In Slytherin Harry would be 
more likely to become DE because of influence of prominent 
Slytherins like Draco, Crabbe, Goyle (as far as we know), Knott, etc 
etc etc who have DE as fathers and are likely to follow their 
parental views (unless they have other influences or are rebellious, 
or have an inate desire to do good etc). What Slytherin stands for 
is power, ambition, and that is what LV has. LV wants power (and has 
it), and is very ambitious. Now if Harry would become more power-
hungry he'd be easier for LV to manipulate because LV could tempt 
him with power etc. 
"We could rule the world together and live forever, making 
everything within our REACH!" *high-pitched, cold laughter* and then 
only use laughter, because a good evil overlord does not share power 
after all....
Now I do not think LV is trying to manipulate him or anything, 
because LV doesn't figure out how to "work the scar-link" until 
OotP, but it is possible that Harry thought so unconsciously, maybe 
with the help of some higher power (like ESP). 

Why Draco? I think because Draco told Harry he should be in 
Slytherin, back at Madame Malkin's Robes for all Occasions, and also 
tells him he should be friends with "the rights crowd" i.e. 
Slytherin, i.e. him. Why? Because that way you have power and fame 
on your side. Slytherins are smart after all, very cunning. This is 
along the same lines as LV's thoughts, but then much simpler and not 
looking that far into the future or as high as ruling the world 
(i.e. more kid-like). 

Now what is more difficult is why Snape. Snape is head of Slytherin 
house and as Harry looked at Snape his scar hurt, which Harry 
obviously links to Snape. So he has this idea of Snape being a bad 
guy of Slytherin house, and that he dislikes him (all from a look). 
So I think he may associate Snape with LV a little, and that is why 
Snape gets LV's laughter at the end of the dream. Kind of like how 
the sorting hat kind of was substitued by the Turban in the dream 
earlier. Or at least, that's all I could think of. 

Why does he not remember the dream? because you often don't after 
you've had one, especially is you go back to sleep afterwards. And 
what's the point in showing us the dream if he doesn't remember it? 
Well, he remembers it for a little while, and I think this is JKR's 
way of opening a path to CoS where he further delves into the 
Slytherin case with the whole heir, parseltongue and sword business 
and when he puts the sorting hat back on etc etc etc. I think it  
illustrates to show us (the reader) that Harry's worried, or 
confused or whatever about this whole business and maybe also to 
show us the connections Harry makes with Draco, Snape, Lv and 
Slytherin. I think it is much linked to CoS. 

You know, every time I think about it I realize again how important 
CoS really is, as it shows us cores of many worlds, relationships 
and ideas. 

Hope that helps. Very good question, Kneasy, I much enjoyed typing 
the post. 

Just my two knuts, 

*Lara*.