Fawkes

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 98603

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lisa graves" <lisa at f...> wrote:
>
> ...edited... In CoS, Riddle balks at Harry "So this is what 
> Dumbledore sends you- a songbird...." ..., with Riddle becoming one 
> of the most powerful wizards in the world, would he not know that 
> Fawkes, being a Pheonix, would be able to aid Harry in many many 
> ways? .... If ... Voldy-..., had only the knowledge of himself as a 
> student- as the heir of Slytherin, would he not know that Gryffindor 
> himself would come to the aid of Harry? 
> 

bboy_mn:

Indeed, I believe Diary!Tom Riddle had only the knowledge and
experience of the 16 year old Self that created him. Too many people
make the assumption that Diary!Tom Riddle knows everything Voldemort
knows, and that Voldemort knows and has experienced everything that
Diary!Tom has; not so. Voldemort has no more than superficial
knowledge, if any, of what happened in the Chamber of Secrets that
night. Young Tom, regarding Harry and the state of the modern wizard
world, knows only what Ginny told him, and what he was able to piece
together by logical deduction. 

As far as being Heir of Slytherin, that would give him no special
knowledge or insight into the events at hand. And, I'm not so sure
Gryffindor himself aided Harry in any way. True, Harry did use
Gryffindor's sword and the Sorting Hat once belong to Gryffindor, but
I think that was more a matter of fate and availability. It does
however, create a strong link between Harry and Gryffindor House as
well as Gryffindor character. I think it exists in the story in just
that way to confirm to Harry once and for all, that he indeed does
belong in Gryffindor House.

As far as Tom's 'song bird' comment, I think to some extent he was
trying to ridicule Harry and undermine his confidence. He would
logically have, and later demonstrates that he has knowledge of the
Phoenix. But given that Harry was a young boy, and that Tom had a
wand, a Phoenix would not seem like much of a weapon. Phoenix has
great defensive capability in the sense that it is, in a manner of
speaking, immortal, but it doesn't have much in the sense of 'attack'
or offensive capability. 

In addition, I'm sure Tom saw no potential threat from the old sorting
hat. Even after the Hat produced the Sword, a sword is not much of a
weapon against a wizard with a wand, and the most deadly creatures in
the magic world.

One of Voldemort great failings is that he is supreme in his own
arrogance. He sees himself as so perfect and so powerful that any
thing he thinks of must immeditately be valid and true simply because
he, the great and mighty Voldemort, thought of it. This arrogance
repeatedly causes him to underestimate his opponents.



> Lisa:
>
> Not to mention the fact that he MUST know that his wand was made 
> with one of Fawkes' feathers.

bboy_mn:

But how would he know that? Voldemort/Tom's wand was sold over 50
years ago; Harry's wand only came into his possession just a few years
ago. There in no way for Diary!Tom to come across that information.
Harry only knows that his core came specifically from Fawkes because
of his personal connection to Dumbledore. Until Harry bought the
second wand, which Phoenix donated the wand cores wouldn't really have
any significants beyond an interesting bit of Trivia.

In the graveyard scene in Gobet of Fire, while the events play out,
Voldemort doesn't seem to know why these strange things are happening.
He may have been able to, and most likely did, put it together after
the fact, but he would have no way of transfering the knowledge back
to young Diary!Tom.


> Lisa:
> 
> Similarly, in OOtP, Fawkes once again comes to the rescue- 
> swallowing a curse from you-know-who, it would seem to me 
> that he want to rid the wizarding world of this meddlesome bird.
> What happens if Fawkes is killed, can he die? and what will 
> happen to ol' snake-face's wand? to Harry's wand?
> 
> Go easy on me please.
> -Lisa

bboy_mn:

Once again, Diary!Tom and Voldemort do not share experiences beyond
the time when the Diary was created. Voldemort probably has very
little information about what happened in the Chamber, and Diary!Tom
would have no way of know what happened to Voldemort two years later
in the Graveyard.

None the less, I'm sure the bad guys all see Fawkes as a troublesome
meddlesome bird that they would dearly love to get rid of. While
Phoenix do die, they are immediately reborn, and in that sense, are
immortal; they die, but they never cease to exist. 

It is conceivable that a Phoenix can truly die, but I don't think we
have enough of Phoenix mythology from JKR herself to determine how
that might happen. 

Interesting thought you had about potential changes to Voldemort's and
Harry's wands if Fawkes dies. The feathers are detached from the bird,
so on one hand their fates should be separate, but on the other hand,
the feathers do derive their magic from the living bird. Once again
though, I don't think we have enough information of Rowling own
personal brand of Phoenix mythology to know for sure.

Welcome to the group. Most new posters are worried that their subject
has been discussed before. You can be sure it has, but we never let
that stop us. New discussions of old subjects come up all the time,
and frequently open new insight that we previously hadn't thought of. 

Also... don't forget... it's just my opinion.

bboy_mn