Harry Agonistes (was Re: Ever so evil ? was Dumbledore's role in Sirius' death

[nkafkafi]

No: HPFGUIDX 99119

Neri originally wrote:
> I'm not very interested in ESE theories,
> because it is usually obvious they'll just won't happen. 

Kneasy answered:
Obvious it won't happen? So what? What's that got to do with anything?
90% of the SHIPping theories won't happen either but that's never
stopped the romantically inclined from indulging their fantasies.

Neri now:
But it is practically a surety that SOME ships will happen. So the  
question (which does interests me) is WHICH. OTOH I'll bet you 
anything that none of the main good characters, such as Lupin or 
Sirius (or Harry...), will turn out to be ESE. IMHO this should be 
pretty obvious to anybody who read the books in more levels than 
merely the plot level.
  
Kneasy:
The ESE!Harry scenario that I occasionally indulge in is based on the
premise that Harry is involutarily ESE - *but doesn't yet realise it.*

Neri:
I think what you are suggesting is more GTE!Harry (Good Turns Evil) 
than ESE!Harry. This is indeed much easier plotwise. I'll grant there 
is a chance this might happen for a short time, just as another trial 
in the hero's journey, but we have only two out of seven books to go 
and much that still has to happen, so I don't think this specific 
episode will last very long, if at all.

Kneasy:
 This
is more intellectually challenging but also more logical. How many
people class *themselves* as evil? Damn few. Usually that's the 
opinion
of others - it's a title that is given rather than claimed.

Do the Malfoys consider themselves evil, or Snape, or even Bella?
I doubt it.

Neri:
Voldy proudly styles himself as the "Dark Lord", and his followers, 
such as Bella and the Malfoys, regard this as an honorific (Snape, as 
we all know, is a more complex case). Their mark is a skull with a 
snake coming out of its mouth. Why do you think they chose these 
specific symbols for themselves? 

Kneasy:
They are just doing what they consider to be necessary to
achieve their ends. I doubt too that they see their ends as evil - 
just
perhaps a little selfish and very convenient for their dream life-
styles.

Neri:
The question of relative moral in RL aside, the Potterverse DOES have 
a God, or rather a Goddess. Her name is Jo K Rowling and She seems to 
have very established opinions on the universality of Good and Evil. 
And as well she should, since she is obviously writing a novel in the 
celebrated genre of good-against-evil. It is of course your basic 
right to hijack the Potterverse and change it to your heart content. 
Fanfiction writers do it all the time. I sometime read them and 
sometimes it is even interesting, but I still find the original 
Potterverse much more interesting.

Kneasy:      
I've been twiddling my thumbs waiting for the 'Temptation' - a classic
plot device where the hero is seduced by, well, the Dark Side, if you
like. 

Neri:
I agree, and I personally believe this already happened. It was when 
Harry tried to use an Unforgivable curse on his friend's killer. The 
punishment for yielding to the temptation was immediate and 
appropriate: the Dark Lord possessed him. Sometimes you have to look 
fast to catch these things...

Kneasy:
<snip>
Yes he fights Voldy,
and why? Because Voldy is evil? Not really. He has two reasons -
firstly because Voldy keeps attacking him and secondly because
Voldy killed his parents. Both very *personal* reasons - philosophical
convictions about good and evil are very low on the list.

Neri:
Murdering your parents because they were protecting you IS evil. 
Philosophical convictions are not needed to appreciate this. It is 
obvious to any 11 yrs old child.

Kneasy:
<snip> Yes, I know Draco tried to recruit him very early on,
but what did Harry know then? Not much. Yet again it was a decision
based on personal likes/dislikes. So much of what Harry does is based
on the personal. 

Neri:
I know this is your interpretation of this scene, but my 
interpretation is different. This is a classic scene, used (usually 
many times) in any good-against-evil novel, of the good hero 
instinctively recognizing evil and opposing it. A similar scene of 
choice is the sorting scene, when Harry refuses to go to Slytherin 
House. DD refers to it as The Choice that distinguished Harry from 
Tom, and DD is JKR's voice (the Goddess' prophet, if you will). In 
the mere level of the plot this choice of Harry was based on 
superficial impressions. In deeper levels this was a defining choice, 
based on the inherent ability of the good hero to recognize the path 
to evil and reject it. In the Potterverse this metaphoric ability may 
take the form of a magical device, such as the power behind the 
locked door. 

I apologize for the boring literature lecture. I almost never analyze 
it in such an intellectual way when I read the books. I just know it, 
as I think 95% of the readers do.

Neri