[HPforGrownups] Are there no depths to which Siriophiles wont sink?

[Silverthorne]

No: HPFGUIDX 99362

I would still like to see the quote from the books where *Sirius* admits he was wrong in the whole Shack incident, guys. I know Lupin did (in the same conversation that he was explaining the animosity, poorly, between the Mauraders and Snape), But I never saw Sirius himself anywhere in the books admit that he was wrong--either about the prank or anything else in regards to Snape.

About being hotheaded and acting without thinking in the past yes--but that was to keep Harry from going out and doing anything hotheaded himself--no specifics in regards to very specific situations--no "I should have never lead another student to a werewolf', no 'I should never have treated Kreacher that way', none of that. *Lupin* has specified situations in his apologetic speeches, but for all we (or at least I) know, with as general and non-commital as Sirius's 'admit to guilt' is, he just may have been parroting words fed to him by Dumbledore, and most likely *only* to keep Harry out of trouble.

And for the record, I don't have the 'we were such berks' qoute in my own Amercian copy...

Which means, likely, that without concern for Harry, Sirius would very much *not* think he had done anything wrong. Harry is a justification for him to express his 'remorse'--not quite the same thing as coming to the bright idea, all on your own, that maybe, just maybe, the things you did were bone-headed and flat out wrong--no matter *Who* they were directed at. I quite honestly think Sirius's change of heart was due more to the realization, most likely *presented to him* by DD and/or Lupin, that his own actions are an example--and important example--to Harry--and would have never occured to him on his own. Why? Because he fell right back into old patterns wtih Kreacher, with Snape, with going to the MoM.

I have to admire him for his loyalty, his love, his bravery. But he still needed to work on a bunch of things, just as Snape needs to work on a bunch of things. And he needed to get a lot more brutally honest with himself.

Yes, Yes, I know, so does Snape. But you know what? Unlike Sirius, whose family problems, from what we can tell, stemmed more from him simply not fitting in (we don't see or hear about any scenes with Sirius being witness/possibly victim to abuse, being alone in dark rooms for hours shooting flies off the walls...getting picked on by the popular school bullies), Snape *was* a victim of abuse.

Those of you who claim to be familair with the abuse pattern should remember, that without help, and with factors in the environemnt adding to the problem--the abusee turns into the abuser. If any of you actually worked with the abuser who was trying to reform(and not just the victims), then you know just how hard it is to break those patterns, even for those totally sincere and wanting to do it *right now*.

Snape is verbally harsh, yes. He has yet to take out his anmger in a physical way on another being that we know of (sorry, but DE years I am not counting here--I'm talking about the present, not what *may* have happened in the past--and if you really want to count those and assume he was the worst in the lot in regards to hurting other people--then the man really DOES have a lot of control now to keep from continuing that trend at Hogwarts). Physcial abuse is easy to point out--it leaves very visible marks. Mental abuse is very *hard* to track down--and nowadays, a lot of people consider looking sideways at your kid mental abuse. A lot of 'metal abuse' is also in the eyes of the beholder--and the concept gets ovcerused as an excuse, as false charges, and so forth. Most of you think that he is abusive and damaging--me, having a mother who did things that I wont lsit here, including mental games (which she still tries when I bother to talk to her), see Snape as little more than an annoyance.--and would have even as a child. Then again, I know he would have very little control over my life beyond his classroom, so perhaps that made it easier for me to blow people like him off.

Snape is harsh. Yes. NO question there. But he is no harsher then many military trainers. He is no harsher than a lot of atheltic trainers, if you want to chuck the first comparison because of age. He is no harsher than a great many 'traditional' music and dance teachers. Point is--the damage he does to Harry, at least, is minimal. Other then making sure the kids hate his guts, his actions and words have very little effect on Potter (And its obvious that it doesn't--after all, we ride herd in Harry's head for most of the series. That little brain seems to be working just fine). The damage he does to Neville is as bad as it is because Neville's own family neglected his coping skills--Neville was *already* a quivering mass before he got to the school. Snape didn't bring him up to doubt himself--that was Gran's damage. Someone like Snape *will* reduce a kid like that to tears everytime.

I'm not saying that it's right--but I am saying that for all the howling going on about "Snape and the poor kids", Snape is largely ineffective in regards to all but one of them--and that one really needs to have his Grandmother spoken to. This S**** starts at home.

Now back to Snape and Sirius--which is really what the discussion was about originally.

Both sides--listen close.

They are *both* wrong. And they are *both* right.

Sirius has a whole bunch of character traits that are glossed over because, well, quite frankly, he looks out for Harry. Take Harry out of the equation, and Sirius is nothing more than a hot-headed, rebellious man who could have caused a very ugly accident because he let his own *hatred* and *prejudice* of another student rule his actions. And he still endulged that nature in his adult years when he turned those same ugly traits on another being. Justification?

"Oh, this person/creature is just plain evil and nasty--they don't deserve more regards than it takes for me to be totally unpleasant". And so it goes. Thats what it is, in a nutshell--whether it's Severus or Kreacher, he has no respect and no kindness. And at least in the first case, we *know* Severus had a crappy childhood that helped to make him what he is now.

It still stuns me that as a race, we can have all the compassion in the world for a being that matches our ideology to a 'T', no matter what horrid things they do--and then when someone who 'isn't like us' does those same things, all understanding and willingness to understand goes right out the window. They aren't us, so we have a right, somehow, to think them 'less'--even when they are trying, no matter how feeble, to 'do it our way'. 

That's why I defend Snape--I know he's a bastard, I know that I would be having words with a teacher that talked to my children in that way in the RL--but he is *trying*. He sucks at it, but he is trying (and yes, I count leaving the DE, working for Dumbledore, and risking your life to betray former friends 'trying'. I even count the very few times that he complimented or at least listened to Harry as well. You have to change in order to do all that--and it is a lot, especially for a man who appearently spent most of his life not giving one wit about anything but himself, since that was all he had).

Snape is still unpleasant despite that. I wouldn't want to have tea with him--not unless he really was as polite to adults as his actions to Minerva amd DD indicate. Even then, I'd likely be uncomfortable knowing how he *could* be towards others. I sure as hell would not want indulge any fangirl fantasies and date him--because I'd either drive him away with interfering with him when he was being a git, or I;d likely take a few chunks out of him myself *for* being a git. 

But really, after all is said and done, other then being a nasty grouchy git and not good with children (understanement of the year), Snape is not all that bad. Not to mention that he;s overhauled his life, and is now risking it--a hell of a chance for a mam who joined a group looking out only for themselves, killing everyone they didn't like, and being generally evil.

Sirius....great, brave, child protecting man that he is....simply did change. He was what he was, and that did not change, from what we know of him in school until the moment that he fell through the veil--he was always arrogant, always treated 'lesser, evil beings' like shit, always did things impulsively and out of boredom. Azkaban did not do that to him--he was, and I will remind you again, always that way.

And we still have to deal with the issue that quite frankly, they already have reputations that are preconcieved in the reader--Brave Gryffindor Sirius, who was always trying to do the right thing, even though he screwed it up, and Sneaky Slytherin Severus--and we all know about Slytherin, don't we? Especially greasy, nasty tempered Slytherin...

Appearances guys. Remember the whole thing about appearances?

Sounds rather like the issue brought up about the houses, doesn't it?

Silverthorne/Anne


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