What about the Door?

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 99502

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...>
wrote:

> PotionCat:
> 
> I've no doubt that Sirius was impulsive and did not intend for 
> Severus to be killed. He should have been held accountible if 
> Severus had been injured. I believe Snape feels that Black was 
> trying to kill him.  James thought that Severus was in danger. Lupin 
> (current WW time) thinks Severus was in danger.
> 

bboy_mn:

This kind of touches on my statement in the other thread about
youthful impulsiveness. I don't think Sirius intended for Snape to be
killed or harmed. Partly because, if that happened it would have been
devastating for Remus Lupin in many ways. That would have been a
terrible thing to happen to Remus, and I can't see Sirius wanting to
hurt Remus. 

In his youthful impulsive mind, I think Sirius had visions of Snape
running away in fear wetting himself as he went. That image would
certainly be a great laugh for Sirius. That's a classic case of a kid
so caught up in an impulse that he can't see the devistation to all
concerned if it doesn't go quite they way he envisions. 

Once again, I emphasize that just because I can explain how and why it
happened, doesn't in anyway excuse it. 

So, if Snape and the werewolf had tangled, then Sirius, as well as
others, would have suffered severe consequences in the moral,
spiritual, and most importantly, legal sense. Indeed, if there had
been harm, there would have been grave punishment.

Given that no harm was done, I want to remind people that we don't
know that involved parties were not punished. Snape tends to imply or
hint at Sirius and James getting off scot-free, but Snape, being the
victim, has a somewhat biased view. Any punishment in his mind would
have been too light.

I could easily see Snape getting a weeks detention for nosing around
in Dumbledore's business when he knew, without question, that he had
no buisness doing so. Plus a weeks detention for James, even though by
some stretch we could call him a hero, there was probably a reasonable
assumption that he was in on it. Then a months worth of detentions for
Sirius for being so impulsive and short sighted as to think having his
best friend kill a fellow student constituded a joke. 

I can't say that for a fact, and even if right, that would be mild
punishment for all concerned. The problem is, we simple do not have
enough information about what really happened before, during, or after
this event. 


> PotionCat continues:
>
> Let's see, every month Remus is taken to the Shack.  The other three 
> go through the tunnel and join him.  He's in the shack, not the 
> tunnel, and cannot get out.  They can get into the Shack.  
> 

bboy_mn:

The whole entrance to and exit from the Shack has alway had me
confused. Could we logically assume that the Shack was enchanted in
such a way that once in the Shack, Remus could not get out? That would
seem a reasonable safeguard, but we know that all of them were able to
leave the Shack and roam the grounds and village. Maybe Jame or Sirius
found a way around that protective enchantment. Perhaps Madame Pomfrey
sealed the tunnel or the exit from the Shack, and James removed the
sealing enchantment. 

If the hole at the Shack end of the tunnel were sealed by Madame
Pomfrey that would prevent Snape and Remus from interacting. But if
that's true, then what was the problem? If the exit is sealed, then
Snape wasn't really in any danger unless he too removed the protective
enchantment. Again, I think at this point, the only thing we can truly
conclude is that we don't have enough information to draw any
reasonable conclusion.

But that brings up the question, once Remus is inside, is the entrance
sealed from both directions; barring entrance and exit, or allowing
entrance but barring exit? But again, the Marauder seem to come and go
at will. 

Perhaps in his werewolf form, Remus simply didn't have the logic
skills to exit from the Whomping Willow on his own, or perhaps, he
didn't have the logic and reasoning skills to exit the Shack and enter
the tunnel. Although, how much logic does it take for a wolf to crawl
into a hole? Again, too many questions, and not enough facts.


> Potioncat concludes:

> Severus is tricked into going through the tunnel.  James goes after 
> him to save him from the werewolf.  Severus sees the werewolf just 
> before he's dragged away.
> 
> Isn't the werewolf on the other side of the door?  Why would Severus 
> have even opened the door if he could see that there was a werewolf 
> on the other side?  ...snip... What am I missing?
> 
> Potioncat

bboy_mn:

The whole layout of the entrance to the Shack has always been a little
unclear to me, as I said before. Here is what the book tells us...

---quote PoA - AM Ed. HB PG 337 ---
And the tunnel begain to rise; .... ...Harry could see a patch of dim
light through a small opening. 

...He and Hermione ...raised thier wands to see what lay beyond.

It was a small room .... (description of room).

Harry pulled himself out of the hole, staring around. The room was
deserted, but a door to their right stood open, leading into a shadowy
hallway.

--- End Quote ---

First, the door of which you spoke does not seal the entrance to the
Shack. The entrance is a hole into a room, but whether a hole in the
floor or a hole in the wall, I do not know. As you can see, the only
door mentioned here is an open door that exits the room and enters a
hallway.

In the absents of a sealing door, we are left with my statements in
the previous section above. 

The tunnel ends in a hole which opens into a room. Can we logically
assume any sealing or barring enchantments on that hole? Well, we can
assume it, but there is no evidence of it. Does that leave the
Whomping Willow as the only effective seal? 

So, now all I can do is what I do best; speculate. Perhaps as James
caught up to Snape in the tunnel, Snape was able to observe Wolf!Remus
looking back into the hole at him. In an effort to keep Wolf!Remus in
the Shack, James shot sparks at him (or something) while he dragged
Snape back toward the Whomping Willow. 

Even this very compact, logical, and reasonable explanation is based
on almost NO facts. It has to be pure speculation, because we have so
very very very few facts to base any conclusions on.

Summary of Key Points-

-Reasonable assumption to think Sirius did NOT intend for Snape to die
or be bitten. To assume deadly intent toward Snape, also assumes grave
and serious consequences for his close and dear friend Remus. 

-Sirius's action were impulsive and extremely short sighted. No matter
what side you are on, how could this statement be anything but true?

-We don't know what Sirius said to Snape. He may have warned Snape of
the mortal danger, but did so knowing that it would encourage rather
than discourage Snape. (related to statements in the other thread)

-We don't know if Sirius or anyone else was punished for this
incident, but I think it's reasonable to assume they were. The true
argument would be over the degree of punishment and how well it fit
the circumstances.

-The only thing sealing the entrance to the Shack that is an
established fact is the Whomping Willow. 

-Finally, we simple don't have enough data about this incident to
reach any solid conclusions regarding intent, motivation, execution,
or punishment. We have the obvious overview as written, but are
missing the underliying facts.

Don't know if this helps, but none the less, here it is.

bboy_mn