How can you kill a wizard? (Was: Hagrid)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 117031


I (Carol) wrote:
> 
> > <snip> And it does seem that magical beasts, notably the snake
that bit Mr. Weasley (a Voldemort-possessed Nagini?) are capable of 
> killing wizards, as are dragons (alas for Charlie?), manticores, and 
> others. They can have their souls sucked by Dementors, a fate quite 
> literally worse than death. But I don't think those creatures will 
> play a role in the final battle. I think it will be wizard against 
> wizard, the DEs using the Unforgiveable Curses when they can, though 
> it seems difficult to use them in the heat of battle.<
> 
> >What other possibilities might there be? Can a wizard drown? (Harry 
> thinks he can during Task 2 of the TWT.) Evidently wizards can be 
> blasted into pieces (Benjy Fenwick; the supposed death of Peter 
> Pettigrew).<
> 
> >I must appear very bloody-minded in this post, but I'm really not. 
> I'm just trying to figure out 1) how JKR can present a battle scene 
> that's more exciting and perilous than the DoM battle (AKs from
every side will be boring and monotonous; "stupefy" and similar curses
seem like inadequate weapons), and 2) how the good guys can kill the
bad guys without resorting to the evil weapons of the enemy (the Dark 
> Arts are not taught at Hogwarts).<snip>
>
> >Any other ideas? <
> 
> Kim added:
> 
> One question (to Carol), is why you think the dementors won't 
> participate in the final battle?  I thought they had proven a sort
of loyalty to the dark side when the DEs escaped from Azkaban.  But I 
> can see your point.  I don't think Dementors would add much 
> excitement to the final battles, unless they were part of a whole 
> assortment of evil critters that are lending a hand to LV.

Carol responds:
I'm not sure why I don't envision a Tolkien-style battle with huge
armies of wizards, trolls, goblins, Dementors, giants, and House
Elves. Maybe it's because it's been done or it isn't JKR's style.
Voldemort is nowhere near as powerful as Sauron and his skills as a
general seem sadly lacking. I do think he'll try to use other
creatures, probably as a means of accelerating the war in Book 6
without directly involving himself and his DEs, but that we'll see a
more personal confrontation between DD and his followers on the one
hand and LV and his followers on the other (the Battle or Hogwarts) at
the end of Book 7, culminating in a personal battle of some sort
between Voldemort and Harry (Harry stands over the fallen body of
Dumbledore and strikes LV's head from his shoulders with the sword of
Godric Gryffindor, and LV falls to the ground shapeless and empty.
Oops. That's Eowyn and the Witchking of Angmar). . . . 

I could be wrong, but what would Dementors add to the battle, assuming
that the students learn to cast a *real* Patronus and not just an
imaginary one in DADA practice? But my real question is how the
wizards will be able to kill each other without using AKs. I don't
have the same moral qualms about having kids kill a Troll or a Giant,
much less dispatch a Dementor, as I do about having them kill a fellow
human being, even an evil one, especially using an Unforgiveable
Curse, and the fact that eighteen-year-old Muggles kill other soldiers
in wars and have done so for thousands of years doesn't make the idea
any more acceptable to me. We're dealing with JKR's moral universe
here and she has established the Unforgiveable Curses as evil. Surely
these kids aren't going to fight evil with evil? Surely they aren't
going to follow the Slytherin code of using any means to achieve their
ends?

Kim wrote:
<snip> Will it be one big battle out on 
> the Scottish moors, or a series of smaller battles between good and 
> bad wizards, the final scene focusing on Harry defeating Voldemort?

Carol:
The second, I think. For one thing, if we added up the forces of good
and evil, the entire student body of Hogwarts (minus about fifty
Slytherins who have chosen to fight for Voldemort) plus the teachers
and the Order amounts to about three hundred people (plus a hundred
House Elves and maybe some merpeople and the Giant Squid). Voldie's
forces, assuming he frees the imprisoned Death Eaters, consist of
somwe thirty or forty DEs, a few traitors and Imperio'd people we have
yet to meet, the Dementors, the giants, and possibly some goblins. JKR
 has yet to make a grand battle on the Scottish moors plausible (IMO).
Just thinking out loud here in response to your question. I could be
convinced otherwise by new plot twists in Book 6. (I forgot to mention
that I do think dragons will come in somewhere--possibly burning down
Muggle villages by night--and Charlie Weasley will come on stage for a
shining moment before being the first Weasley to die.)
>
Kim wrote: 
> I had an idea previously (and am sure others have made similar 
> observations) that one way to defeat LV and the DEs would be somehow 
> to lure them into that special room in the Dept. of Mysteries, the 
> room that contains the greatest magic of all (love?), and that their 
> evil would then be "neutralized" in some fashion.  It might be more 
> than LV could take and he might just vaporize, but it wouldn't be an 
> actual killing on the part of Harry and company.  Of course that
room may prove impossible to open, making that a moot point, but I
still find the possibility really intriguing.  Also there's the
question of whether that most powerful magic resides only in that room
or someplace else as well.

Carol responds:
Good. I like that better than having a lot of bloodshed as we'd have
in a Muggle battle. Yes, people are going to die, but I imagine it
won't be more than half a dozen good guys in Books 6 and 7 together
and most of the baddies in Book 7. Or I can hope.
> 
Kim wrote:
> But, you've made a really good point, since it's imperative for the 
> good side to win the final battle, how are they going to do it if 
> they can't/won't kill anyone, even their evil enemies?  Then again, 
> are good wizards/witches allowed just to injure their enemies?  If 
> they can only immobilize them somehow, not necessarily kill them, 
> maybe it would still be possible to defeat them.  In that sense, I 
> mean immobilize them, tie them up, take them away, etc., if
possible, not to allow them to recover and get up to keep fighting. 
But even that seems a bit boring.  Another far-fetched possibility is
that the DEs will turn on each other and on LV for some reason and
will do themselves in in the end.  

Carol responds:
Thanks. I get a bit discouraged when people are more interested in my
sign-offs than my points! But, yes, that's my big question. If we get
down to a battle between wizard and wizard, will it just be the DEs
throwing AKs with an occasional Crucio for their sadistic pleasure, or
will it be the DoM all over again (with a bit more organization and
discipline), with "Stupefy!" being the favorite curse? Surely that's
not all there is? And how can there be a final battle unless most of
the DEs are actually killed? And, to return to my original question,
how do you kill a magical person who can survive splinching or burning
at the stake? Would the spell that blew up twelve Muggles really kill
a wizard? (Can you imagine Hermione blowing up Bellatrix as the DEs
blew up Benjy Fenwick?)

We're back to Dark Creatures, unknown spells, and possibly Godric
Gryffindor's sword. Or sweeping the DEs off their feet with a mighty
wind and blowing them into the lake, where they'll find justice at the
hands of the merpeople and the arms of the Giant Squid--if they don't
drown first.

Carol, sounding facetious but actually finding this subject very
painful to deal with