The Second Prophecy

[Barry Arrowsmith]

No: HPFGUIDX 118024

Responses  to more than one post here, otherwise I'll be up all night.

First up  annemehr,
 >
  I'm just wondering if we can add another name to the
  possibilities for  the first prophecy. I mean, Barty Crouch, Jr.

  Just for fun can we make another case?
  How about Hermione then?

All of his friends!  All three of them!  Well, maybe not. :)  The ESE 
theories can stand alone, so really, any combination of them can be 
true, as long as it includes ESE!Peter (now there's a challenge: come 
up with an Innocent!Peter theory!).  But going by "Snapes Worst 
Memory," I could readily believe that James was not so good at choosing 
friends when he was young and arrogant.  I'm sure Lily's good; she's 
probably the one who deflated his head, but he never broke with his 
friends, evil or not.
  >

Kneasy:
Barty, Hermione, you can choose who you like.
I'll be interested to see the posts you produce.
Look on it as "an exercise for the reader".

Nah. As I say, I reckon Lupin is on DD's side; he owes him a lot, what 
with accepting him in Hogwarts, protecting him, giving him a job and 
whatever. Lupin probably  has more loyalty to DD than he ever did to 
James or Sirius. And since (for the moment) DD looks like a  goody, 
then Lupin probably is too.

But Innocent!Peter. There's a challenge. Might take you up on that. But 
fair warning, it'll be mostly circumstantial evidence, not much canon 
around to back that one up, so it'll be 'coulds',, 'mights',  'maybes'. 
You know - like the SHIPping posts.

 >
Dungrollin:
  But that didn't help Voldy to rise again, did it?  That was
  afterwards.  In order to make that bit of the prophecy apply to
  Sirius, you need to postulate how he could have been useful to Voldy  
before the end of GoF.  What did Voldy need to rise again?  The  
information from Bertha Jorkins about the TWT and the stuff behind  the 
memory charm about Crouch The Younger being alive, some help  from 
Wormtail and Nagini... What else could Sirius have done to  qualify?
 >

Kneasy:
The end of GoF? Why? The graveyard scene was just the resurrection.
Q. Is Voldy greater and more terrible than ever?
A. Like hell he is. He's in hiding along with the mad bitch and his 
backing band is in the slammer.

So  there's a *lot* more to come. And since Jo has stated that we're 
going to find out more about (not from - about) Sirius, I reckon that 
it ain't going to be good  news for the Siriophiles.
Remember, he *had* to die. Sounds promising, that.
So far as we are aware Sirius has never been noted for good works and 
Boy Scout rectitude. If he had been we'd have heard by now. He's a 
Black family member; pureblood and acts like it.
JKR makes much of bloodlines and Sirius has probably bred true.
One thing about Sirius - he always lets his friends down.
Expect bad news re: Sirius.

 >
Patrick:
Just because we can plainly see SPT is a fraud in class, we shouldn't 
think that her "genuine" prophesies are frauds (not saying you are, 
just sticking this in here...)  These are done, like you said, in a  
fit of impulse.  She doesn't realize she did it, she probably  wouldn't 
know them if you played it for her.  Given that, I don't  know that the 
prophesies have the opportunity to be clouded by the Seer's own 
knowledge.  She doesn't know she gave the proph, why should she be able 
to cloud the message.  This goes back to the nature of prophesies.
snip
 >

Kneasy:
Yes, I  agree mostly. Oracles are usually depicted as being in some 
other mental state - usually drug induced (somebody has got at her 
tea-pot maybe). She's an old duck and it's happened to her just twice 
in 16 years. I'm not even  certain she knows she produced the first one 
any more than the second, which she vehemently denied all knowledge of 
to Harry.
The 'other' state supposedly allows visions, messages to come through 
in RW thinking. (Don't believe in it myself,  but some take it 
seriously.) If so then your depiction of being a conduit is apposite; 
it's not her at all, it's something else using her.
Next question: What? Where are they coming from (in the WW I mean); 
from behind the veil?

 >
Neri:

I just wanted to help Kneasy a bit with his theory. Some gullible and 
dull list member might object to this theory on the ground that Sirius 
can't be Voldemort's servant if he loved James and Harry so much, as 
JKR mentions in:
  http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=61

Kneasy:
There's not necessarily a contradiction.
Do bad people never love? Of course they do - and they often betray 
those they've loved.
And nobody has satisfactorily proved that James was so perfect either; 
in fact he demonstrably wasn't. And since Sirius projects James onto 
Harry.....

 >
Pippin:
Trouble is, PuppetMaster!DD wouldn't surprise Harry at all. He's the 
one who introduced us to the idea in the first place. We'd be shocked, 
but he wouldn't. Harry's only shocked when
Dumbledore expresses weakness and isn't in control.
 >

Kneasy:
True. And it's only after the the implications of his little chat at 
the end of OoP that it'll start sinking in just how much he may have 
been manipulated.
But Harry would be shocked by unpleasant revelations about Sirius.
Ah, youthful illusions. Much better when you outgrow them.