Plot in OotP

[sophierom]

No: HPFGUIDX 118084


Lupinlore wrote:

<snip>
 > Lets face it, her record
 > for coherence of plot points isn't always very good. Dumbledore
 > supposedly loves Harry but leaves him to be abused by the Dursleys
 > and Snape. Sirius manages to spend twelve years in Azkaban despite
 > the existance of both Veritaserum and Legilemency. The supposed
 > fearful Dark Wizards seem to forget the Unforgiveables in their
 > battle with a bunch of teenagers. The Ministry is so poorly
 guarded
 > a bunch of teenagers evades the security in the most secure area,
 the
 > Department of Mysteries. <snip>

Sophierom:

Interesting points, but I'm not so sure I'd agree that these failings
are as bad as you make out. 

1. Dumbledore - would it have been better for him to raise him in the
Wizarding World, where Harry would have been more vulnerable to
Voldemort and/or death eaters? True, Voldemort wasn't much to speak of
in Harry's childhood days, but Dumbledore couldn't have known how long
it was going to take LV to return to power.  It might have been that
DD had the choice between mean relatives - whose home offered blood
protection against the darkest wizard in an age - and a loving, caring
family who couldn't have protected Harry in the face of dark magic. I,
too, hate that Harry had to grow up suffering the abuse of the
Dursleys, but Dumbledore had more to think about than how happy
Harry's childhood was.  In fact, when Harry was an infant, perhaps
Dumbledore didn't love Harry all that much; perhaps he only knew
enough of him to think, oh, cute child, and by the way, he's the only
one who can destroy LV so we have to protect him for the good of
greater wizardkind.  As for Snape, Dumbledore is perhaps guiltier. 
The degree to which Snape abuses Harry has already been argued a great
deal on within the group, but even if you believe Snape is truly and
horribly abusive to Harry, we again have to consider the fact that
DUmbledore has to consider more than Harry's happiness. As a spy,
Snape is necessary to the Order.  As a former Death Eater, Snape is a
good indication of how powerful LV is becoming (dark mark darkening as
he grows stronger).  So, Dumbledore has to balance the problems Snape
presents to Harry with the benefits (information and some measure of
protection, as evidenced in PS and POA).  I can't argue for sure that
Dumbledore is making the best decisions - perhaps he could have done
more to coerce the Dursleys into treating Harry better; perhaps he
could chastise Snape more for his behavior towards Harry.  But in the
long run, Dumbledore probably thinks he's doing what's best for
wizarding kind.  His love for Harry grows as he watches Harry grow at
Hogwarts, thus creating the conflict we see come to a head during
OotP.  Indeed, in that book, Dumbledore loves Harry too much, perhaps.
 He's so concerned about protecting Harry from the prophecy (Harry,
you have to become a killer) that in keeping the information from him,
his actions indirectly cause greater harm (Sirius's death, teens in
danger, etc.).  JKR is actually addressing this issue well enough for
me.  In the beginning of the relationship between Dumbledore and
Harry, Dumbledore makes the most callous choices because he wants to
put wizardingkind above the happiness of one child.  But, as the
relationship deepens, Dumbledore begins to love Harry so much that his
emotions interfere with good decision making.  We're seeing the
decline of Dumbledore as we we see the rise of Harry and Voldemort.
It's kind of sad, really!

2.  Sirius in Azkaban -  Could it be explained by the fact that Sirius
himself never put up much of a defense? I'll admit that I can find no
canon evidence of this, but we do know that there was no trial.  This
suggests either that Sirius did not put up much of a defense himself
or that the Ministry really had it out for him.  If Sirius, by his
silence and by the context of the scene, seemed to be guilty, why
would the Ministry use Veritaserum or Legilimency?  Imagine, in
today's world, that someone refused to put up a defense if s/he were
charged with a terrorist act.  Would justice overcome the public
hysteria and fear of the moment? It really depends on the society -
and perhaps the WW society has a weak concept of the right of the
defendant to a strong defense, no matter how heinous the crime, no
matter how guilty he may appear.  If Sirius refused to stand up for
himself, if all he did was laugh madly and scream like a lunatic,
well, who was going to come to his defense? Lupin or Dumbledore, both
of whom believed Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper? This begs the
question, then, of why Sirius refused to put up a defense. I believe
others have suggested that perhaps Sirius felt he deserved to be in
Azkaban for what he had done.  When Hagrid insists that he must take
Harry to Dumbledore, perhaps Sirius believed he had nothing else to
live for; he believed he WAS guilty because he was stupid enough to
trust Peter with this all-important secret.  He's just lost his best
friend, and Sirius, by reputation and action, was a pretty rash,
spontaneous man.  Also, it's interesting that Sirius doesn't try to
escape until he figures out Peter's location.  This also suggests that
he feels he deserves to be in prison, and the only thing that moves
him away from guilt is his need for revenge and perhaps also his
concern for Harry.   If everyone, including Sirius, believed he was
guilty, there would have been no reason to use Veritaserum or
Legilimency.  It appears to most people, including Dumbledore, that
Sirius was the secret keeper and that given the nature of the Fidelius
charm, he had to have given the information to LV about the Potter's
location. Sirius appears guilty, he makes no effort to deny his guilt,
and therefore, the WW accepts that he is, indeed, guilty.  True, the
Ministry did not undergo a very thorough or accurate investigation,
but again, I think the hysteria of the time probably meant that the WW
was less interested in justice and more interested in retribution and
security.  As I stated earlier, there's no canon evidence to suggest
that Sirius didn't put up a defense - but I also can't find any to
suggest that he DID put up a defense.  If I'm wrong about this, please
correct me! I'd love to know.  I was only able to do a cursory glance
at HP-Lexicon because my books are in storage at the moment.

3.Use of unforgivables -  This goes back to the fake!Moody and
Bellatrix comments  - to use an unforgivable, you really have to mean
it.  But I think there is probably more than just intent involved in
spellcasting, even with spells less dangerous than the unforgivables.
 Why do the kids at Hogwarts have to practice spells, even simple
spells? Shouldn't they be able to do them immediately, so long as they
can pronounce the spells correctly? Maybe spellcasting takes more than
a superficial intent - maybe it takes a sort of internalizing of the
spell and a level of magical power that varies from wizard to wizard.
 What if using an unforgivable uses up so much magical power that it
would then become difficult to cast other spells for a while? Let's
say the average Death Eater has the same magical power as the average
wizard.  My guess is that s/he can't just throw around unforgivables
like they're calling out Grade 1 spells or the wizard in question will
find it very difficult to defend him/herself against magical attack. 
I don't know enough on the subject, but I wonder if there's a balance
between offensive and defensive capabilities that depends on the
wizard's power.  Also, if unforgivables are difficult and draining to
cast, and the death eaters think they can defeat the kids with simpler
spells, then why wouldn't they use the simpler spells? If I'm of
average physical prowess and I have the choice between walking and
running, I'll probably choose to walk if I know that i need to save my
energy for other activities that day.   Maybe that's a bad analogy -
probably so, as I'm always bad at them.  But, my larger point, I
guess, it that I don't think we can assume that spells are all of
equal difficulty even though they have very different effects. 

4. Ministry poorly guarded - At first, I totally agreed with you on
this.  But then I thought of government buildings around the U.S.
before terrorism became a major issue.  I used to be able to walk into
the Boston State House and wander around the halls - even sneak into
various offices and conference rooms - without a care back in 2000. 
Now, you can't enter the building without going through metal
detectors; there are guards all over the place; the loading areas are
blocked off; in essence, the security is much tighter.  If JKR makes
it easy for the teens to enter the ministry AFTER the government knows
LV is back, then I'll agree that this is a major plot hole.  But, as
it stands, the ministry believes there's no real threat.  I don't find
it all that hard to believe that the building has very little
security.  Of course, this doesn't explain how Harry got into the most
secure area of the ministry, for even back in 2000, I couldn't have
walked into a senator's office or important document vault
unannounced.  But this is where the Death Eaters play a role.  The
Death Eaters had already gotten into the DoM - didn't  they neutralize
any security that was present before Harry arrived? After all, LV
really wants Harry to get into the right room, so he's going to order
his goons to make sure that Harry doesn't run into problems.  Perhaps
this should have been a clue to Harry and the others that something
was fishy.  But they were too caught up in the moment to consider the
fact that someone was making it very, very easy for them to enter. 
It's not so hard to believe that Lucius and gang got rid of any
security that might have been surrounding the DoM in order to make
sure that Harry got to the prophecy room without a problem.  

While I agree with you that OotP has its flaws, I think that JKR's
plotting skills are pretty good.  Perhaps we'd all agree (?) that a
big issue in the books is the lack of information we really have about
this world. For all the thousands of pages she's written, there are
still so many questions unanswered.  We still don't know the nature of
spellcasting, the justice system in place in the WW, Snape's role, and
so many other things.  Of course, that's also the beauty of the
series; we can talk and talk and talk until our faces are blue.  There
will, even by the end of the series, be unanswered questions and
concepts in the WW that we'll never fully understand, but I have faith
that JKR has and will continue to address the big issues adequately,
leaving us the opportunity to imagine the smaller details for
ourselves. 

Thanks for the interesting post! I had fun playing devil's advocate!
:-) 

Best,
Sophie