Plot in OotP

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 118186


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...>
wrote:
> 
> Hickengruendler wrote:
> > > 
> > > In a few recent posts, I read the opinion by some posters, that 
> > OotP has let Plot than the previous books. I  think OotP was a 
> > very well plotted book, with one incident consequently leading to 
> > another.



> -carolcaracciolo wrote:
> > 
> > ...edited..  
> > The writing was not NEARLY as compelling as her previous work.  
> > .... Maybe more time and another re-write would have helped?  
> >
> > 
> > Carol

bboyminn:

To preface, I agree this book was not as compelling as others, and of
course each person is entitled to their own /read/ of the books. But I
find people picking fault with all the wrong things, which I will
comment further on in this post.

I didn't feel the same level of captivation with this latest book that
I felt with the previous. But JKR is struggling to setup the rest of
the story. In a sense, this book is the beginning of the end, and
certain ground work needs to be laid. That's not always an easy task.
I remember writing an extremely long and complex chapter in one of may
own stories, a chapter with many complex twists and turns passing
through several scenes and various emotional transitions when all I
really want was one character to make one minor statement that left a
clue that would pay off many chapters later; that chapter is +10,000
words. The point is that as an author working a simple clue or point
into a story can be a very complex task, then trying to string the bit
and pieces into one coherent story is even more complex. 

More on that later.

 
> Carol (justcarol) responds:
> 
> I liked Hickengruendler's cause/effect connections, which the other
> Carol snipped, yet somehow I agree with Carol C. that OoP is awkward
> and less compelling than the previous books. It's too long, for one
> thing, and as Del was saying a few weeks ago, Harry is, well, too 
> full of anger, too unreasonable, for many readers to identify or 
> sympathize with. 


bboyminn:

In addition to what I said above, this was indeed not a warm and
cuddly book; it had a lot of lows and few highs. But as I said above,
the author had a basic story and into that story had to weave specific
bit of information, so of which had to appear without appearing to
appear, if that makes any sense.

> Carol continues:
>
> ... (I hope that Alice the dog-faced woman was not just a Mark 
> Evans, dropped in as a bit of background.) 


bboyminn:

Alice - The Dog-Faced Woman??? Where was that? How could I have missed
it? Really, is that in the book?


> Carol continues:
> 
> ... (I think Neri has made too much of the missing five hours of 
> Snape's time on the night of the DoM battle- ... discrepancy between
> the time frame for Snape and the time frame for Harry does seem to 
> suggest that JKR didn't set up a chart or outline so that *she* knew
> what Snape was doing. 

bboyminn:

I'll keep this one short. I don't think there is a discrepancy. Snape
has no reason to panic. As far as he is concerned, everything is under
control until an hour or two after he finds out Harry and Friends are
in the woods. Remember, he doesn't necessarily know about them being
in the woods as soon as it happens. I suspect that sometime after Ron
& Co escaped from Draco, Draco may have found Snape and told him. 

It's only when they don't come back, that Snape needs to begin to
worry. At that time he alerts the Order, and while they know from
Snape's previous enquiry what is on Harry's mind, they don't know what
Harry intends to do; will he come to Grimmauld Place or go directly to
the Ministry, will he try to find help or do it all himself. Or indeed
has he actually done anything at all. Certainly we know all the
answers, but the characters in the story have reasonable doubt
sufficient to cause /some/ delays in their actions.


> Carol Continues:
>
> It's like
> the carelessness regarding wands in the graveyard scene of GoF: How
> can Harry be holding his wand *and* the portkey in one hand and
> dragging Cedric's body with the other? 

bboyminn:

Others have responded, but what we really have here is a matter of
reader perspective, reader perspective that has been inflamed by
reader emotions. Not saying you are over emotional, just that you are
filling in the spaces between lines in way that others surely don't see.

Take the wand/portkey example; hold a ruler in your hand and pick up a
coffee cup by the handle; it's really not that hard. Others mentioned
that Harry isn't dragging Cedric anywhere, he's just holding his
wrist. In addition, he doesn't really have to hold the entire portkey
(Tri-Wiz Cup), he just has to touch the handle. Just like you can
grasp a coffee cup handle while holding a ruler, all Harry has to do
is get a finger or two around the handle and he's home free. Once the
cup/portkey is touched and activated, you are stuck to it as it pulls
you onward. 

The Doxie Scene-

The Doxie cleaning scene is not even remotely about doxies, the
cleaning is simply an excuse to get Harry in the room so We and Harry
can discover the Black Family Tapastry and the many details it holds.
The rest of the cleaning is just filler, transitional story connecting
more significant events. 


Can't Stand Umbridge and Grawp?

You're not suppose to like them. Umbridge is a mean, evil, sadistic,
ruthless, cruel person, she is more than willing to destroy anyone in
her path to serve her own ambitions and allegiances. I'm pretty sure
we are suppose to hate and despise her.

Grawp is not a likable character, he's dangerously big and more
dangerously stupid. It's big, clumsy, stupid oafs like him that get
muggles hurt and give giants a bad name. But he does serve a plot
purpose. In this book, Grawps main purpose it to bleed on Harry and
Hermione; that blood draws the Thestrals which JKR needs to enter the
scene and provide unnaturally fast transport to London. Now, he may
have more purpose in later books, so this is also his introduction,
and on a more poignant note, he is also Hagrid's only living family. 

Battle at the Ministry of Magic lacking clarity?

It's a long complex battle with a lot of different characters; it went
on a long time and to keep it from going on endlessly, some minor
details would need to be sacrificed by any author in order to keep
things moving. In addition, I think to some extent, we aren't meant to
have a crystal clear understanding of what happened to who. Who was
the Purple Slash Curse wizard? Difficult to tell, but there may be a
reason for that. Who was the Baby Head Death Eater? Is it more
important to indentify him, or to move the story on to the next scene? 

Yes, we would like to know those details, but do we need to know, and
would knowing serve the story at this point?


> Carol Concludes:
> 
> I hope that HBP is better; shorter, more tightly and carefully
> plotted, more action-filled, more capable of arousing the reader's
> sympathies. And I hope it begins to answer our questions about
> everyone from Snape to Grindelwald, and especially about Godric's
> Hollow. I wonder, though, if we'll ever find out what happened 
> during those missing twenty-four hours, or whether JKR even knows 
> that they're missing.
> 
> Carol

bboyminn:

Again, I admit that OotP was not as captivating as the previous books.
It's darker and more negative that the previous books. On the other
hand, GoF is my favorite and CoS is my least favorite, however, in a
recent re-reading of the series, I found CoS very captivating, and
oddly, GoF slighly tedious... go figure.

In addition, reader's attitude plays a big part. For all of us, the
hype and anticipation surrounding the release of OotP was
overwhelming. It's pretty hard for any book to live up to that
overhype frenzied level of anticipation.

Further, in a recent thread, Del and I (and others) were discussing
our perception of the OWLs Voldemort/Sirius dream scene. Del
immediately saw that something was wrong, the dream seemed very
unlikely, and that put him off as he read it. I, on the other hand,
was so eager to find our what happened next, that I was willing to
overlook the unlikelihood of the dream. Again, the point is that the
reader's mindset affects their reactions. 

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn (was bboy_mn)