Two Wormtails was Re: Plot in OotP (wand confusion)

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 118413


Various replies, scroll down for yours:

Pippin, quoting PoA:

Harry didn't understand what Snape was talking about. Nor, 
apparently, did Lupin.

Nora:
Then why his comments about the Map afterwards that clearly 
reveal that Lupin knows exactly what the Map is?

Pippin:

By now, you've  realized that the line was a direct quote, not 
commentary from me.  It beautifully illustrates the unreliability of 
our narrator, who is quite mistaken about what Lupin knows. The 
full passage also illustrates unequivocally that Lupin is not 
above equivocating. He says that the map looks like a 
parchment that insults whoever writes on it, and that it looks like 
a Zonko's product to him, when all the time he obviously knows 
it's a map. So, can we really trust *anything* Lupin says that 
sounds like it might be equivocal? I don't.

Nora:
That Pensieve scene bothers me so much, just because it 
causes all kinds of problems that Harry can hear things that 
Snape couldn't have possibly.  I guess we have to go with 'It's 
magic!', or else I suspect it would be more common for people to 
pull out memories and go back to listen to things they couldn't 
have heard.  This is a purely practical objection--the mechanics 
of the thing are cursedly unclear.

Pippin:

I think the pensieve must be so rare an item that most people 
have no idea such a thing even exists, much less that 
Dumbledore has one. I don't think Snape knew of its existence in 
GoF or he could have replayed the Egg and the Eye scene and 
discovered who FakeMoody was by looking at the map.

BTW, there is, I've just noticed, a dead give-away in that scene 
that makes GoF a much fairer mystery than I thought. Moody tells 
Harry that Crouch is no longer on the map. We should have 
known that had to be a lie -- as Hermione says in another context 
later, Crouch didn't just evaporate.

Khinterberg:
But it surprises me how easily Snape lets oneof the said 
manufacturers have it back, although that could be due simply to 
there being students around, and we wouldn't want them to
get too suspicious.  Also though, I wonder why Lupin was so 
surprisedthat Harry did not want to turn the map in straightaway.  
Lupin was ateenager who helped write this map, he surely 
knows how it feels to beyoung boy getting into mischief?  Harry 
has never been too concernedwith a threat over his own life, at 
thirteen years old I don't think keeping the map would have 
bothered him at all.  

Pippin:

Yes, this is the crux of the confusion. If Snape 
1)definitely knows that Lupin made the parchment
2) has believed all along that Lupin is working with Sirius
3) thinks that the parchment may contain instructions for getting 
to Hogsmeade

 then it would be madness to let Lupin walk away with the map. 
Of course the vampire threat might have something to do with it. 
;-) 

Evidently Snape is not sure enough of his case to insist that the 
parchment be taken to Dumbledore, and that makes me think 
he's not quite sure who made it or what it does.

Lupin wants Harry to see that if the map fell into Sirius's hands, it 
could help him get into the castle, or so he says. The telling thing 
is that after making a big deal of Harry's not turning it in, Lupin 
also does not do so. 

Renee:
Who Wormtail is and what exactly Snape knows are two different 
mysteries. As you say, the first one is solved later in the books. 
On the later, we can only speculate but it doesn't change the fact 
that the first one is solved. (Pulling Occam's Razor again.)

Pippin:
The trouble with Occam's razor in this context is that we're only 
pretending that events in the Potterverse are related by cause 
and effect.  Wielders of Occam's razor in the real world are not 
allowed to argue, for example, that God obviously *meant* to 
have the planets rotate around the Earth, and evidence to the 
contrary is just a Flint. If we are allowed to eliminate evidence at 
will, then Occam's razor can be used to prove anything. If we're 
not, then the case for two Wormtails and ESE!Lupin is 
immeasurably strengthened.


Exactly what Snape knows is relevant because it speaks to the 
issue of how he learned of the nicknames and whether he 
knows who they belong to. Remember that the whole plot in PoA 
revolves around a case of mistaken identity. Everyone thinks that 
Sirius was the secret-keeper and must have been the spy, 
though he was neither. Now everyone thinks that Peter was the 
secret-keeper which is self-evident. But it is not self-evident that 
he must have been the spy just because  the spy was known as 
Wormtail.

Renee:
?? I don't see what harm it could do to tell James the spy went 
under the name Wormtail. So he would have told Sirius. What 
did DD think Sirius could do with this information? And if DD 
suspected Sirius *before* Halloween 1981 (is this canon?) he 
was criminally irresponsible anyway, to allow him to be the 
Secret Keeper. And are you saying James & Sirius wouldn't have 
suspected Peter if they'd been confronted with the name 
Wormtail? 

Pippin:
It would be very important to Voldemort to know what information 
about the DE's is reaching Dumbledore, since it would help him 
discover which of his servants was a traitor. If Dumbledore did 
share this information with James, perhaps he made James 
promise not to tell anyone else.

 It is canon according to McGonagall that Dumbledore was 
worried about James's choice of secret-keeper, and that James 
insisted on using Sirius despite this. I don't think Sirius knew 
about the Wormtail name. But if James did, and thought that 
Dumbledore had eliminated Peter from consideration as the 
spy, then he would think that Peter was the ideal secret-keeper, 
since Voldemort would never think they'd use someone he'd 
managed to cast suspicion on. 

It might have worked, only, IMO, somebody told Voldemort about 
the switch. 

Pippin