bullies? twins, padfoot and prongs

[ginnysthe1]

No: HPFGUIDX 118500


Kim wrote:
<snip> What I saw in the scene by the lake where Sirius and James
bully Snape was that two teenage boys (Sirius and James) were picking
on another teenage boy (Snape) at that particular time for a
particular reason, and that that reason, as Catkind suggests, is not
completely clear.  Nevertheless in that instance I think Sirius and
James were very definitely in the wrong.  Why?  Because Snape was
apparently minding his own business at the time and the two Marauders 
were bored (Sirius) and interested in impressing a girl (James wanting
to impress Lily).  And there's no good excuse for that.

Carol responded:
This part I agree with completely.

Then Kim wrote:
But what's missing by way of explanation in the text is the reason 
they'd ever chosen to bully Snape at all.  I mean, Snape was the
butt of their bullying long before the scene by the lake took place. 
My sense is that years before that they had taken an immediate 
dislike to Snape due to his odd ways, his greasy hair, long nose, 
etc.  And so in that first instance of dislike and their decision to 
act on it, they were also in the wrong.  OK, maybe Snape was 
understandably hard to like, but in that case they should have just 
left him alone. On the other hand, Snape's bullying behavior may have 
begun at first as retaliation for the nasty way Sirius and James had 
treated him for being ugly, odd, greasy, etc.  And so years went by 
and it just escalated every time they were in each other's vicinity.  
And Snape appears to have no crowd of his own to hang out with and 
support his side of the conflict.  In any case, I've always objected 
to explaining away cruel behavior as "boys just being boys," which 
people often do.  It seems like a pretty lame excuse to me. 

Carol responded:
Since we have almost no background for this time in their lives, we're
all speculating at this point. I think that Sirius, for example, 
associated Severus with what he hated about his own home and
family, which (for me) explains his vindictiveness. He may even have
projected that hatred of the Dark Arts onto James as an explanation of
why he disliked Severus.

Kim now:
I wonder if Sirius and Severus had family connections of some kind in 
the past.  Maybe their pure-blood families knew each other from the 
wizarding country club... that is, assuming that the average pure-
blood family goes out and about in society at one time or another. 

Carol continued:
But James seems to be entertaining himself (and Sirius) by bullying 
Severus in the Pensieve scene. He dislikes him, certainly, but he 
doesn't seem to share Sirius's virulent hatred.

Kim adds:
What strikes me (and struck my father, who at my behest read all the 
Harry Potter books, poor man; though he thanked me later since he's 
hooked on them now) is how different James is from his son Harry.  
Despite Snape's greasiness, snobbishness, and excessive studiousness, 
it's hard to imagine Harry ever being that nasty to a similar kid of 
his own generation for the same reasons as James.  Not even to 
impress a girl.  Maybe it's because Harry has been at the bottom of 
the heap himself in a way, has felt like an outsider, and learned an 
important lesson from having been there.  Then again he doesn't like 
the adult Snape, but I think for very different (and justifiable) 
reasons.  But Harry doesn't take pride in harrassing other kids and 
seems to appreciate qualities like studiousness (like the way he 
appreciates Hermione the bookworm).  Harry does lose his cool in OotP 
and takes it out on his friends, but it's not for the same reason 
that James bullies Severus.

Carol continued:
At any rate, as I've noted in other posts, Severus is not the typical 
weak victim any more than James, however arrogant he may be, is a 
typical bully. He (Severus) could do some serious damage with his 
wand in a fair fight, and James undoubtedly knows that. In fact, it 
may be one reason he stopped hexing other people (those who merely 
annoyed him but couldn't fight back) but couldn't resist a fight with 
Severus, who in other circumstances might have been more a rival than 
an enemy.  (If only he'd wash his hair and smile once in awhile and 
stop burying his nose in a book. . . .)

Kim responds:
It seems the important thing about people like Severus is that they 
can be a test of the tolerance of others.  He's kind of like that 
horrible old man in the town where Gurdjieff and his followers 
lived.  Gurdjieff made the old man come back so that the others would 
learn patience and compassion.  Of course I agree, such people could 
at least try to keep clean like everyone else...  But then Severus 
must have his reasons for being the way he is, and maybe we'll find 
them out eventually.

Carol continued:
Also, Severus *did* have his own gang of Slytherins, or rather he was 
part of a gang. The problem is, most of them, including Bellatrix 
Black and presumably Rodolphus Lestrange, seem to have been older 
than he was. If any of them remained at Hogwarts at the end of 
Severus's fifth year, they weren't much use as friends. Either they 
were afraid of James or they didn't want to publicly side with 
greasy, studious Severus against athlete James and handsome Sirius. I 
think, though, that Severus would have been reluctant to join the DEs 
later if any of his Slytherin gang (most if not all of whom became 
DEs) had betrayed or deserted him on this occasion. It makes more 
sense (to me) that they were all older and therefore absent when the 
Pensieve episode occurred. (FWIW, I think that Lucius (six years 
older than Severus) was the original leader of the Slytherin gang, 
followed by Bellatrix (three years older than Severus), and that the 
others were closer to their ages than to Severus's. The ages come 
from a news article in GoF and the "Noble and Ancient House of Black" 
chapter of OoP, respectively, if anyone is curious.)

Kim responds:
All good points!  Those things hadn't occurred to me.

Then Carol signed off:

"Carol, at a loss for a sign-off for this post"

She's a comedienne and doesn't know it... (or maybe she does...)

Kim, not at a loss for a sign-off for this post ;-)