Trusting characters Re: bullies? twins, padfoot and prongs

[Sharon]

No: HPFGUIDX 118786


Azriona:
> Well....he's not a liar, per se, but he's awfully hypocritical.  He 
> tells Harry that you can tell a wizard by the way he treats his 
> inferiors, but then he goes and abuses Kreacher.  He obviously has 
a 
> great amount of contempt for his brother - not because the boy was 
a 
> Death Eater, but because he was "soft enough" to fall in with a 
crowd 
> that Sirius did not approve of.  
> 
> And he tells Peter that as a friend, he would have died for him, 
> although 12 years previously, he refused to be Secret Keeper and 
thus 
> gave up the chance to die for James.
> 
> So Sirius isn't a liar, but I still would take anything he tells me 
> with a hefty grain of salt.
>
Melanie:
> My reply:  You are twisting everything to make it a lot worst than 
it really was.  

I'm sorry, I really don't think I am, but I did shorten my reply 
because I was in a bit of a hurry, so maybe my logic didn't make a 
lot of sense.  I'll try to go more in depth now.

>Melanie:
Kreacher hated Sirius, he gave Siruis a great  deal of  abuse I 
believe this was abuse that was learned from his original owners:  
Sirius' parents.  
>

When, exactly, does Kreacher abuse Sirius?  The first time we see 
them both together, Kreacher gives Sirius a low bow, and in 
his "public" voice jokes with him and tries to show deference.  (It's 
only under his breath that he calls Sirius a "nasty ungrateful swine" 
(Chp 6, OoP).  But beyond that, Kreacher does zip to Sirius, whereas 
doesn't even pretend to have a ounce of respect.

"He was always a foul little," starts Sirius, before Hermione cuts 
him off in the same chapter.  

Now, I won't argue that Kreacher probably did learn his hatred of 
Sirius from Sirius's own parents.  In fact, I'm sure that's exactly 
where Kreacher picked it up from - and I'm equally certain that 
Sirius, bitter at having to remain in Grimmauld Place and remain out 
of the "action" of the Order, took out a lot of frustration on 
Kreacher.  

But I'm not *ever* going to say that such a thing was the right thing 
to do, much less was it forgiveable.  It isn't.  Just because you 
don't like someone, you don't mistreat them in front of others.  
Kreacher, at least, puts a face on his hatred, and never says 
directly to Sirius, "You're the scum of the earth and you were a 
rotten son."  

Sirius was far more verbally abusive toward Kreacher than the other 
way around.

At one point in the books, Sirius tells Harry that you can judge a 
man by the way he treats his inferiors.  (I apologize, I can't mange 
to find the quote itself.)  

Dumbledore also tells Harry, "I do not think that Sirius...ever saw 
Kreacher as a being with feelings as acute as a human's...Sirius did 
nothing to make Kreacher's lot easier." (Chp 37, OoP)

Sirius clearly sees Kreacher as his inferior...and yet he makes his 
life difficult.  How is saying that Sirius was hypocritical in this 
matter illogical?


>Melanie:
> And as for dying for James, he did that only because of 
protection.  He thought that the death eaters were unto him.  It 
wasn't out of self-protection as much as it was out of protection of 
Lily and James.  
>

Azriona:
Again, I disagree.  First, James didn't simply *think*, he *knew*, 
having been informed by Dumbledore that there was a spy among them.  

McGonagall: "...the Potters knew You-Know-who was after them.  
Dumbledore...had a number of useful spies.  One of them tipped him 
off, and he alterted James and Lily at once." (Chp 10, PoA)

As well, Dumbledore knew there were spies in his own ranks:

McGonagall: "[Dumbledore] was sure that somebody close to the Potters 
had been keeping You-Know-Who informed of their movements.  Indeed, 
he has suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned 
traitor and was passing a lot of information to You-Know-Who." (Chp 
10, PoA)

Therefore, both James and Sirius knew perfectly well that whoever the 
Secret Keeper was - that man would be one of Voldy's first stops on 
his hunt for Harry.  

Now, think about this for a moment.  You're a Dark Lord.  You want to 
kill Harry Potter.  You know that you can't manage to find the 
Potters, so you decide to find their friends instead.  Of the three 
friends - Remus, Peter, and Sirius - which one is closest to the 
Potters, and therefore most likely to know where to find them?

Gee, let me think.

"Never saw one without the other," laughs Madam Rosmerta.  (Chp 10 
PoA).  "Quite the double act, Sirius Black and James Potter!"

Sirius was not a stupid man.  He had to know that he was at the top 
of the proverbial list of wanted men.  And he had to know that once 
Voldy caught him, there would be no escape until he told his secret 
or death.

Torture is not a happy thing.  It's not a fun thing.  And yes, I 
totally believe that had Sirius (or Peter) given the Secret under the 
influence of torture, it would still work to break the Fidelius 
Charm, because they would be *giving that secret willingly*.  You can 
torture someone, yes - you can even torture them into giving 
information.  But that information is still given willingly, because 
at the point at which it is given the person under the influence of 
torture is so out of their mind with the pain that they will say 
whatever is necessary in order for it to end.

Sirius was a 22 year old kid - when you come down to it.  He was 
scared.  I have no doubt that any of us would be as well.  Did he 
hand off the Secret Keeper position because he well and truly 
believed that Peter would be the last place that Voldy would look - 
probably.  But you can't tell me that Sirius didn't come to that 
conclusion because he wasn't afraid of what the role of Secret Keeper 
would bring anyway.  He basically shucked off the responsibility to 
someone else.

>Melanie:
And really if he had died, if they all had died who would have taken 
care of Harry.  

Azriona:
Who's to say that the secret would have been given up had Sirius 
died?  If Sirius had died, wouldn't the secret (and James & Lily's 
location) have died with him?  To me, that's the logical conclusion.

>From Chp 19, PoA:
"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED," roared Black.  "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY 
YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"

Right.  Sirius Black wasn't willing to die for anyone, but he sure 
seems to expect it from everyone else.  Had he been willing to do so -
 knowing he wasn't the traitor - he would have been willing to remain 
the Potter's Secret Keeper.  

--azriona