No: HPFGUIDX 114523
On 2 Oct 2004 at 21:53, dzeytoun wrote:
> A lot has been going back and forth today about whether Harry should
> show Snape respect. Frankly, I think that idea is... well, I don't
> have a great deal of intellectual or emotional agreement with it.
> Nevertheless, the thrust seems to be that Harry should show Snape
> respect in order to prove that he is not like Snape believes and that
> this will lead to Snape and Harry building some kind of mutual
> respect, or at least lead to Snape behaving somewhat better and
> lessening tension.
OK - first of all let me make my positions
clear. While I have - and would again -
defended Snape's general practices as a
teacher as valid, and as methods that work in
some cases, I consider his specific treatment
of Harry as an individual quite
reprehensible.
But, yes, i do think Harry should show Snape
respect. For a few reasons.
dzeytoun:
> Now, the thing I don't get, I really don't, is why would anyone think
> Snape is *capable* of changing his opinion of Harry or even *capable*
> of changing his behavior? The evidence we have, from what I can see,
> is that he isn't. He has far too much invested emotionally in his
> view of Harry, and that view leads directly to the way he behaves.
> To change would mean, at some level, coming to some peace with his
> past RE the Marauders and James. I suppose he would if he could, if
> only to get rid of his own pain, but all the evidence is that he
> simply CANNOT. Now, given that, why would Harry being respectful to
> him make any dent at all? As far as I can see, he would just
> say "That blasted Potter's up to something, but he can't fool me!"
You could be right - but I don't think this
is necessarily the case. First of all, I
don't believe Snape would have to come to
terms with his past with regards to the
Marauders. Much more simply, Snape would just
have to come to terms with the fact that
Harry is not his father. He could continue to
hate James with an absolute passion, and
still come to terms with Harry. How easy this
would be is a very open question - but I
don't agree that it is necessary for Snape to
get rid of his pain or his feelings to come
to terms with Harry.
Secondly, though, I think Snape could to a
great extent, come to terms with his memories
of the Marauders. Consider Snape's treatment
of Sirius versus his treatment of Remus.
There's a lot of difference there. Snape and
Lupin are certainly not friends - but Snape
does seem to have a far easier time dealing
with Remus Lupin than he did with Sirius
Black. Now that James and Sirius are dead
(and Peter is irrelevant), I think it's not
impossible that Snape could come to terms
with what has happened to him in the past.
Remus treats Snape with respect - and this
does seem to mollify Snape's behaviour a bit.
And today, Remus is all that is left of the
Marauders. If Snape can come to terms with
him, a lot of things could change.
<SNIP>
Dezeytoun:
> Now, given all this, how on Earth is Snape supposed to budge? Some
> people see evidence of change during the Occlumency episode, but if
> its there its EXTREMELY subtle and not very encouraging. How, then,
> is anything supposed to make any difference at all? Snape seems
> simply too emotionally invested in his hatred of Harry to be capable
> of any kind of change either in his attitudes or his behaviors,
> barring being forced to modify his behavior unwillingly be some
> method or the other.
Maybe - but not definitely, in my opinion.
Firstly I don't think the evidence of change seen during the
Occlumency episode is extremely subtle at all. I'm not sure it's
there - but if it is there, it's quite profound in my view.
Harry treats Snape with respect - or at least Snape takes it that
way - and he responds in kind with one of the few positive
statements we've ever seen him make towards Harry.
"'Correct, Potter. And dim though you may be -' Harry looked back
at Snape, hating him '- I would have thought that after over two
months of lessons you might have made some progress. How many other
dreams about the Dark Lord have you had?'....
'That is just as well, Potter,' said Snape coldly, 'because you are
neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out
what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters.'
'No - that's your job, isn't it?' Harry shot at him.
He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For
a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had
gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression
on Snape's face when he answered.
'Yes, Potter,' he said, his eyes glinting. That is my job. Now, if
you are ready, we will start again.'....
'Reparo,' hissed Snape, and the jar sealed itself at once. 'Well,
Potter
that was certainly an improvement
' Panting slightly, Snape
straightened the Pensieve in which he had again stored some of his
thoughts before starting the lesson, almost as though he was
checking they were still there. 'I don't remember telling you to
use a Shield Charm
but there is no doubt that it was
effective...'"
(Extracts from OotP, pp521-522)
Note, that at the time this happens, Snape is insulting Harry, and
Harry *hates* him. Then when Harry says something that acknowledges
what Snape is doing, things change a bit. The insults stop - even
though Harry thinks he has goaded Snape. And at the end, Snape
gives Harry as close to a compliment as he ever does.
This may not mean anything at all - but if it does mean anything,
it potentially means a great deal.
But to me this isn't the most important thing in Order of the
Phoenix to show how things could change between the two of them.
That comes later.
"Malfoy stowed Harry's wand inside his robes and left the room
smirking, but Harry hardly noticed. He had just realised something;
he could not believe he had been so stupid as to forget it. He had
thought that all the members of the Order, all those who could help
him save Sirius, were gone - but he had been wrong. There was still
a member of the Order of the Phoenix at Hogwarts - Snape."
(OotP, p655)
This to me, is the most profound statement in the book about how
Harry and Snape's relationship could still change.
This is the moment when Harry suddenly really comes to realise what
Snape is doing. There was a flash of that during the Occlumency
lessons - but Harry still sees Snape then as a vicious, nasty
teacher (and not without justification given Snape's treatment of
him).
But here, Harry sees Snape as 'a member of the Order of the
Phoenix'. Harry - on at least some level - realised that Snape *is*
on the side of the angels.
And when he is desperate - desperate to save Sirius, a man he knows
Snape *hates* with an absolute passion - he does call for Snape's
help. He does think enough of Snape to ask for him to help a man
that Harry knows he hates - because it's the right thing to do.
And Dumbledore later tells Harry that Snape immediately went to
find out if Sirius was all right. And that Snape also went into the
forest to look for him when he was missing.
As Order of the Phoenix ends, Harry hates Snape with a passion -
but Harry is, I believe, too honest to go on hating Snape in the
way he is, because his reasons stated in the text are not fair.
That will retreat.
I think Harry will start to treat Snape with some more respect -
and I hope Snape responds. But even if he doesn't, that doesn't
make it a bad thing for Harry to do.
Harry may not respect Snape as an individual - he has no reason to
at all.
But to respect him as a member of the Order of the Phoenix, and as
a foe of Voldemort, is another matter entirely. And Harry has
already shown some signs that he can do this.
And, regardless of whether Harry respects Snape - as a student, he
only hurts himself in the long run if he fails to respect Snape as
a teacher.
Harry failing to learn doesn't hurt Snape in the least. It just
hurts Harry.
It is easier to learn from a teacher you respect. But if you don't
make the effort to learn from a teacher you don't, you only hurt
yourself in the long run.
And often it's easier if you decide to respect the office - not the
person - because it gets you past the problems you have respecting
the individual.
People try to get Harry to respect the office ("*Professor* Snape,
Harry") I think because they understand this. Getting him to
respect the person is in many ways unfair - but the adults around
Harry know, I think, that if Harry doesn't find some way to listen
to Snape, he'll only hurt himself.
Getting him to treat the office, the position, the *teacher* with
respect, gives Harry a way of learning, that doesn't force him to
compromise his principles.
Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia