Occlumency questions/LV 's plans

[annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 114628


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin"
<spotthedungbeetle at h...> wrote:

> But something else jumped out at me, and I've not found any 
> discussion of it – perhaps because everyone was so delighted to
> have so much else to analyse in the few pages dedicated to the 
> Occlumency lessons – is that Snape glosses over *how* they know
> that You Know Who knows that Harry's seeing into his mind.

Annemehr:
The best idea I could come up with, is that Dumbledore could tell when
he looked into Harry's eyes the night of the snake attack, just as he
was Portkeying Harry and the Weasleys to Grimmauld Place.  At that
instant, Harry felt hatred for Dumbledore and wanted to sink fangs
into him.  Dumbledore tells Harry his view of the incident in his
office after the MoM battle: "On those rare occassions when we had
close contact, I thought I saw a shadow of him stir behind your eyes..."

Unfortunately for those of us with analytical turns of mind,
Dumbledore only looked into Harry's eyes *after* the attack on Arthur.
 The only other incident of "close contact" I could find was just as
Dumbledore left Hogwarts after Marietta had turned in the DA:
Dumbledore grasped Harry's arm as he urged Harry to apply himself to
Occlumency lessons.  Again, Harry felt that urge to strike.

Although Harry and Dumbledore were close to each other at the hearing,
there was no eye contact or touch at all, which makes me feel unable
to conclude whether or not this was close enough to be a test.  Still,
for what it's worth, that's my best guess.

Dungrollin:
> Is it significant that they know that, but not that Harry's
> already dreaming about the corridor?  Is Harry's dreaming about
> the corridor *up until* snake.vs.Weasly because You Know Who is 
> dreaming of getting his hands on the prophecy, but *after* 
> snake.vs.Weasly Harry's dreaming because You Know Who is feeding
> him misinformation?

Annemehr:
In order for LV to send Harry misinformation, LV has to *know* the
corridor and the DoM himself.

Before the snake attack, yes, I believe the corridor dreams were LV's,
which Harry was seeing.  Maybe even for a while after that.

~~What was the snake, and why was it there?~~
I think this is important to gauging what LV's intent was and how it
changed during the year.

The snake might be presumed to be Nagini possessed by Voldemort.  I
don't quite feel easy about believing this, because possession by
Voldemort is apparently damaging, and I don't think LV would want to
damage Nagini nor cause her to mistrust him.  If it were possible for
LV to possess an animal benignly, wouldn't he have been able to "keep"
the animals in the Albanian forest for longer?

The snake could have been some other snake possessed by Voldemort. 
This seems quite possible, and doesn't pose any problems as far as I
can see.  Except he has to get a really big snake...

The snake could also have been LV's animagic form.  Naturally, groans
are arising from many people reading this, because they figure we've
had enough secret animagi.  I understand the sentiment, although it
seems quite reasonable to think that LV may have wanted to acquire
this skill, would certainly not have registered, and would indeed turn
out to be a snake.

Either of the possession options would, I think, have been much safer
for LV as a way of "going in" to the MoM than the animagus one.  After
all, if the snake were discovered and *caught*, as long as it's merely
a possession, LV can just withdraw himself in an instant leaving some
poor old regular snake to mystify the Ministry.  Yep, I'm going with
the second option: LV possessed a snake (probably not Nagini).

Whatever the vehicle used, what was Volde!Snake doing in the MoM that
night?

If it were LV in animagus form, I suppose he could have tried to find
the prophecy room and get the prophecy orb.  I don't think he would
have risked that, though, as I said.

So I suppose he was going in via the possessed snake to reconnoiter. 
His only (as far as we know) Unspeakable DE was Rookwood, who was
still in Azkaban at the time.  LV's original attempt at the prophecy,
Sturgis Podmore, had been caught.  The next attempt, with Bode, also
failed -- though Lucius had used Imperius on him, Bode went mad when
he touched the orb, and was already in St Mungo's when Harry et al
went to visit Arthur there.

So, I think LV was there, possessing a snake, to gather more
information regarding how to get at the prophecy.  While attacking
Arthur (which he was not originally planning to do), it seems he felt
Harry's emotions of horror and realised what was happening.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It was only just before (chapter-wise, I mean) the escape of the
imprisoned DEs that Harry realised during an Occlumency lesson that
the door he'd been dreaming of was the door to the DoM.  It had always
been closed so far, so I infer that LV had not yet seen what was
behind it.  After Rookwood was available to LV, I believe the dreams
were more and more about making Harry actually want to see what was
behind the door.  I think it was after Rookwood's escape that LV
formulated his plan of luring Harry to the DoM. LV soon learned all he
needed to know, began sending Harry dreams on purpose, and then it was
only a matter of time until LV felt Harry's horror at "seeing" Sirius
being tortured, and would know Harry was coming.  That's when he put
the rest of the plan into action.

Make sense?  Time to pick holes!  :))

Annemehr