GH re-re-revisited

[dungrollin]

No: HPFGUIDX 115215


Snipped Dungrollin's post 115135

Now Kneasy in post 115191:
(with apologies for the incompetence of my snippage)
<snipping vented spleen over posters who insist on discussing non-
plot oriented aspects of HP; but touched nonetheless that he 
approves>

> OK, having vented my spleen, let's delve into the morass that is 
> GH.
> 
> Anyone who bothers to read my stuff is well aware that I've long
> believed that DD predicted the probable course that events would
> take at GH and took precautions accordingly. This meant that for
> Harry to survive James and Lily couldn't. Some may see this as 
> harsh and contrary to the view of DD as caring and compassionate, 
> but I don't see it that way; DD believes that Harry is the person 
> who can defeat Voldy for good and unless that happens then there 
> will be other James's, other Lilys, uncounted numbers of them, 
> that will die because of Voldy. It's a question of doing what is 
> necessary.

<snip>

> So, there was this Prophecy of which Voldy knows only a part.
> It's the first part too, since the eavesdropper was discovered and
> ejected before hearing it all. 

> It can't have been just the first line otherwise he wouldn't have a
> clue how to identify this usurper - he needs the thrice defying and
> seventh month bits. 
<snip>

> But if he gets to hear a little bit more - "...will have power the 
> Dark Lord knows not..." 
<snip>
> That'd be enough to pique his interest, don't you think? It would
> call for his personal attention, he'd want to know more about
> that. On-going professional development, that sort of thing.
> 
> Let's not forget that DD has heard exactly the same words. There's
> a power in Harry and power is what Voldy wants. He'll come for
> a closer look. 
<snip>

> The protection then, is specific and has been placed to stop Voldy
> getting at Harry. In one way the power in Harry is almost like bait
> dangled before a shark. Voldy will want to know more about this
> mysterious power and when he attempts this the protective trap is
> sprung.

> Now DD does say "We may never know."
> Do you believe his protestation of ignorance? I don't.
> If he doesn't know everything then he at least knows a hell of a 
> lot more than he's letting on, otherwise he wouldn't be so sure 
> that Voldy would come back, or that Harry would need on-going 
> protection or that the Prophecy had not already been fulfilled. 
> Voldy has been vanquished (he uses this exact word in the OoP 
> explication), Harry has been marked. Yippee! Put out more flags! 
> It's all over, folks!
> But no; not DD. It ain't finished and he knows it.
> 
> How? Bloody good question.
> Only one answer that I can see - he knows what happened.
> Only two ways he could know what happened - either because
> there was an eye-witness or because DD planned it that way.
> Or both. Personally I think it's both.
> 
> Your point that the only evidence we have are Harry's visions is 
> well made; and it's all too easy to forget that these are inside 
> his head and who else knows about them in any detail? Anybody? 
> Unless DD has been rummaging around in Harry's memories he has to 
> have got his info from somewhere else - and even then Harry (so 
> far as we know) hasn't a clue from his early memories of what 
> happened to Voldy.
> There's more DD could tell us, I think.
> 
> Kneasy

Dungrollin: 

I'm searching for the hidden necker cube. You know, the drawing of a 
3D cube that flips its orientation when you look at it for long 
enough.  That change in perspective that will make a whole plethora 
of facts slip into place, and provide me with a theory that I can 
defend in this wonderfully obsessive forum. Because I don't have any 
theories at the moment, I'm afraid (I didn't start playing this game 
until quite recently), more an endless series of questions, and a 
huge potential for `yes-buttery' in response to the theories of 
others.
 
YahooMort came up trumps, and I've read some of your past posts 
about the prophecy.  Just got a little problem though (which you may 
have addressed in other posts that I didn't find).

Your reading of the prophecy means that the *events* it refers to 
have already come to pass, doesn't it?  If the `either must die at 
the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other 
survives' refers to James and Lily, why does DD say `Yes' in 
response to Harry's `So does that mean that... that one of us has 
got to kill the other one ... in the end?'  

I suppose he could know it refers to Lily and James, but since he 
also knows that Harry's the only one who can defeat Voldy for good, 
he wants to force his hand a bit. Make him assume that it's kill or 
be killed, so that Harry won't hesitate when the time comes.

And I've just re-read something else, again DD at the end of OotP, 
that made me pause... 
`He heard only the beginning, the part foretelling the birth of a 
boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. 
Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would 
be to risk transferring power to you, and marking you as his equal.  
So Voldemort never knew that there might be danger in attacking you, 
that it might be wise to wait, to learn more.  He did not know that 
you would have *power the Dark Lord knows not* -`

Urgh.  Why would DD lie about that?

Okay, let's try going at this one step at a time.

If DD's right *and* telling the truth, then all is as it seems.  
Voldy hears about the boy born at the end of July to those who 
thrice defied him, Lily unwittingly saves Harry by dying, Voldemort 
tries to AK Harry, curse rebounds and Voldy's gas. DD guesses why 
Harry survived, and uses Lily's sacrifice to protect Harry at the 
Dursley's, he also guesses at the time that there may be a 
connection between Harry and Voldy.

However, if DD's right, but not telling the whole truth, then we 
have the following possibilities:

1. There was a witness to the events of GH who told him immediately 
what had happened, so it was more than a guess that Lily saved Harry 
by dying, which would also explain how Hagrid got there so quickly.

2. He set up the protection beforehand as a last resort because he 
suspected Sirius was the spy.

3. He knew in advance that Lily and/or James would die (as per 
Kneasy's reading of the prophecy), and set up the protection 
beforehand with Lily's knowledge and consent, despite knowing that 
there's no blocking an AK.  

4. DD lied to Harry about how much of the prophecy Voldy knew.  He 
knew Voldy would attempt magical larceny on the basis of it, and 
knew that the protection he'd set up would work against the 
somthingorotherus spell Voldy would inevitably use (can work with or 
without Kneasy's reading of the prophecy).

5 and onwards. Spare possibilities for things I haven't thought of.  
Please (anybody) fill in the blanks.

It all gets more complicated if you think more than one may be true, 
but just bear with me for now...

#1 is possible – particularly in the light of the DE dandy who was 
supposed to meet Sirius, the one that JKR cut out.

#2 is also possible, but somewhat uninteresting (at least for non-
Siriophiles).

#3 is plausible, but brings us back to `there's no blocking of an 
AK'.

#4 requires a damn good reason for DD lying (or being mistaken) 
about how much of the prophecy Voldy knows.

#5 is by far the most convincing, and as a bonus, requires no canon!

I think (IIRC through the haze that was last night) I was wondering 
if DD was wrong.  If he assumes along with everyone else that Voldy 
used an AK, but really it was the somethingorotherus spell.

My idea (which I may not have made entirely clear) was that it was 
Voldy's attempt to incorporate the `power that the Dark Lord knows 
not' into himself that made the somethingorotherus spell backfire, 
rather than Lily's sacrifice.  That there's something about Voldy 
that means not only that he doesn't have this power and despises it, 
but also that in trying to fill himself with it (without reading the 
label first), he nearly destroyed himself.

This wouldn't necessarily mean that Lily's sacrifice doesn't protect 
Harry at the Dursley's.  Although I've posted recently that I don't 
really get the point of sending Harry back each summer (since DD 
seems happy that Harry's safe enough at The Burrow and at Grimmauld 
Place) unless it's for unforeseen emergencies.

My misgiving about the idea is that so much is made of the 
sacrificial love aspect of the story.  Though, now I come to think 
about it again, has JKR ever said that was a theme of the books?  I 
recall others (particularly those defending HP against religious 
fundamentalists) making much of it, but all I remember JKR saying is 
that death and dealing with death was a big theme running through 
the series.

Dungrollin
(wishing she had more time, brains and chocolate)

P.S. 

Kneasy: Another niggle here - who did the throwing out? It'd hardly 
be DD, he's listening to Sybill and I don't think she's got 
a 'pause' button.)

Dungrollin: Aberforth, surely?