GH re-re-revisited

[arrowsmithbt]

No: HPFGUIDX 115277


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" <spotthedungbeetle at h...> wrote:
> lotsa snips> 
> YahooMort came up trumps, and I've read some of your past posts 
> about the prophecy.  Just got a little problem though (which you may 
> have addressed in other posts that I didn't find).
> 

Kneasy:
You mean you actually found something you were looking for by
using Yahoo!Mort?
Now there's a novelty.


> Your reading of the prophecy means that the *events* it refers to 
> have already come to pass, doesn't it?  If the `either must die at 
> the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other 
> survives' refers to James and Lily, why does DD say `Yes' in 
> response to Harry's `So does that mean that... that one of us has 
> got to kill the other one ... in the end?'  
> 
> I suppose he could know it refers to Lily and James, but since he 
> also knows that Harry's the only one who can defeat Voldy for good, 
> he wants to force his hand a bit. Make him assume that it's kill or 
> be killed, so that Harry won't hesitate when the time comes.
> 

Kneasy:
That Prophecy. What a pain. I doubt very much that it's to be read as
a straightforward Harry vs Voldy foretelling - JKR, when questioned
about it said that she and Sybill had "..been VERY careful.." (her emphasis)
when constructing it. Bluff, double-bluff or warning to interpreters?

Parts of it are past events - the "born to", the "marking", why not the
"neither can live"? I haven't yet seen an interpretation that I'd accept
unreservedly or even with more than moderate enthusiasm (not even
my own), all of 'em have drawbacks somewhere.

The wondering about whether it has already been fulfilled in its entirety
was sparked by my natural suspicions and incipient paranoia - was JKR
pulling a fast one? Giving us something deliberately obscure (but basically
unhelpful for future theorising) to worry over and to concentrate on while 
she stacked the deck elsewhere.

I don't trust DD to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
I've quoted it before, but whenever he whitters on about how precious
truth is I'm constantly  reminded of that quote of Churchill's -  "In
wartime...truth is so precious she should always be attended by a
bodyguard of lies." And he'd be a right mug to disclose anything truly
significant to Harry when Harry has Voldy trolling around inside his mind.
He has this plan,  he's working to an agenda we wot not of. He's done 
some very odd things for an omniscient, world number one wizard.
One of my first major posts was a performance review and job evaluation
of A.P.W.B. Dumbledore - 65696 'FLOOZY No.1 - The Dumbledore Papers'
For someone reputedly so smart he's been remarkably inept -  unless
it's deliberate.

> Okay, let's try going at this one step at a time.
> 
> If DD's right *and* telling the truth, then all is as it seems.  
> Voldy hears about the boy born at the end of July to those who 
> thrice defied him, Lily unwittingly saves Harry by dying, Voldemort 
> tries to AK Harry, curse rebounds and Voldy's gas. DD guesses why 
> Harry survived, and uses Lily's sacrifice to protect Harry at the 
> Dursley's, he also guesses at the time that there may be a 
> connection between Harry and Voldy.
> 

Kneasy:
Except... Voldy had not achieved immortality. Unless DD possesses info
we don't have, how could he know that Voldy would survive an AK?
Many posters also think that for the 'sacrifice' to be truly that, then
Lily did not defend herself or Harry other than verbally and by standing
in Voldy's way. She didn't fight, she offered her own life - not an easy or
natural thing to do in the circumstances. How could DD be so sure
that would be or was the actual case?
 
As to the connection - something was going on during the missing
24 hours. Harry could have been undergoing an investigation of some
sort, but that'd be guesswork at the moment. 

> 
> I think (IIRC through the haze that was last night) I was wondering 
> if DD was wrong.  If he assumes along with everyone else that Voldy 
> used an AK, but really it was the somethingorotherus spell.
> 
> My idea (which I may not have made entirely clear) was that it was 
> Voldy's attempt to incorporate the `power that the Dark Lord knows 
> not' into himself that made the somethingorotherus spell backfire, 
> rather than Lily's sacrifice.  That there's something about Voldy 
> that means not only that he doesn't have this power and despises it, 
> but also that in trying to fill himself with it (without reading the 
> label first), he nearly destroyed himself.
> 

Kneasy:
That's a possibility. I have a hankering for a failed possession attempt.
It wouldn't show on the wand replay and it gives some sort of explanation
for Voldy leaving bits of himself behind. But what do I know?

But don't forget that the very first line of the Prophecy says that Harry
has power - sufficient to knock off Voldy, even though at that point it
doesn't classify it as 'unknown by Voldy'. He'd still be interested in
having a peek, and accessing it if he could, I  think. What he wouldn't
expect is for some snotty brat in Pampers to bite back. There are times
when I despair at the ineptitude of villains, I really do. Why mess around
when he could've fed Harry to Nagini? Problem solved.

> 
> My misgiving about the idea is that so much is made of the 
> sacrificial love aspect of the story.  Though, now I come to think 
> about it again, has JKR ever said that was a theme of the books?  I 
> recall others (particularly those defending HP against religious 
> fundamentalists) making much of it, but all I remember JKR saying is 
> that death and dealing with death was a big theme running through 
> the series.
>

Kneasy:
Yup. Death is supposed to be a major theme; no mention of love being
a complementary aspect so far as I know. Many assume so, same as
many assume that it's a morality tale, despite the fact that what she
said was that it isn't, but hopefully it's a story from which morals 
could be drawn -  which could be a very different thing; you can draw
morals from almost any story.