forms of address

[Geoff Bannister]

No: HPFGUIDX 116253


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Geoff wrote:
> <snip>
> > Looking through my notes above, I hope this will highlight why I 
find 
> > it odd that Professor McGonagall addresses Dumbledore just by his 
> > surname. It smacks of the office set-up of a senior speaking to a 
> > junior and certainly not of two colleagues of approximately equal 
> > standing. I would have been quite offended had any of my teaching 
> > colleagues spoken to me as "Bannister" and that would have 
included 
> > the Headmaster. <snip>
> 
> Carol adds:
> What makes it even odder for me, as an American, is that McGonagall 
is
> a woman addressing a man. As I said in an earlier post that went
> unanswered (except for your kind information on sherbet lemons), it
> seems to me that most of the female characters call very few people 
by
> their first names. With Hermione and the other female students, it's
> first names for other students and Professor plus last name for
> teachers. (The one exception, as I noted earlier, seems to be that
> Hermione follows the boys in referring to Draco Malfoy and his 
friends
> by their last names. This seems to be the only instance of a female
> student using the last name alone.
> McGonagall, in contrast, rarely uses first names except when she's
> addressing certain colleagues (notably Severus Snape) in an 
unofficial
> capacity. I believe she uses first names in the Hog's Head as well.
> Ordinarily, though, she'll address her colleagues as, say, Professor
> Snape, and her students as "Mr." or "Miss" plus last name. Her use 
of
> "Albus" for that one emotional moment in SS/PS stands out, but so 
does
> her use of "Dumbledore," for the two reasons we've stated: 1) he's 
her
> superior ("boss," as we'd say in America) and 2) she's female. 


Geoff:
It is very unusual for a woman in this situation to use only the 
surname which makes Professor McGonagall's use of "Dumbledore" so 
very strange - and almost claiming superiority over him. The only 
instance I can recall of this type of address was a female teaching 
colleague and she used the surname-only structure when speaking of a 
third party, i.e. when the man involved was not present.


Carol:
> At any rate, and I really want a British perspective on this, it 
seems
> to me that men and women follow slightly different traditions in
> Britain. Among schoolboys and male colleagues (in private
> conversation), last names are the norm and first names indicate a
> close friendship, is that correct? Or do last names denote enmity
> ("Malfoy," for example) while anyone who's not an enemy (say Ernie
> MacMillan) would be called by his first name? McGonagall, it seems 
to
> me, is trying to follow the first version of this tradition, with
> Dumbledore as a colleague except on those few occasions when her
> emotions get to her, in which case she treats him as an intimate
> friend. But she's following the *male* tradition if she's following
> anything at all.

Geoff:
I though I had covered this fairly well in my last post: I did say 
that English usage is changing and the "protocol" I grew up with has 
virtually disappeared. To recap, when I started teaching in an all-
male environment, we referred to the pupils using only their surname 
unless we needed first names to distinguish, as we might with Fred 
and George. When the girls came after eight years, we became a little 
mellower and used both first name and surname. By the time I left 
teaching in 1993, I used first names only except when I needed to 
distinguish, as, for example, having more than one Amy in the class.

Even today, though, I notice in the boys' club at our church, friends 
may use first names or nicknames in addressing each other - sometimes 
softening the surname by using "Jonesy" for "Jones" - and might use 
surnames only for folk they know as acquaintances but do not count as 
close friends. I think with girls, there is more of the first 
name/nickname pattern than surname.

But again, among adults nowadays in a work envirnoment, referring to 
a person to their face just by their surname would be considered 
brusque or rude.

The usage is of course flexible. If you were to compare forms of 
address in, say, a poor rundown area with an office, you might well 
get different patterns.

Hope this makes sense.

Geoff
Enjoy views of Exmoor and preserved 
West Somerset Railway steam at:
http://www.aspectsofexmoor.com