How and when did Snape learn Occlumency ?

[Bex]

No: HPFGUIDX 116477


Potioncat wrote:
> > I don't think we know he (Snape) is a Legilimens, although there 
> > are hints that he might be. He uses that spell, with a wand 
> > while teaching Harry.  But LV doesn't need a wand to do it. 
> > 
> > I think he knows Harry is not telling the truth during the scene 
> > with the petrified cat.  Although I don't think he could get all 
> > the details.  Same for the scene in GoF where he makes Harry sit 
> > near his desk and threatens him with veritaserum.
 
Dungrollin replied:
 
> I think we have more than hints, don't we?  DD says at the end of 
> OotP that he's a sufficiently good legilimens to know when he's 
> being lied to, when he was talking to Kreacher. That implies to me 
> that there are two kinds of legilimency.  There's the spell, the 
> incantation ("Legilimens!") for which you need a wand, and which 
> allows you to see the memories of the person you're attacking. But 
> there's also (presumably once you're sufficiently proficient at
> the spell) the bonus of generally knowing when you're being lied 
> to. There are several mentions of Harry wondering if Snape can 
> read minds, and whenever Snape suspects Harry of lying he's 
> invariably right, Harry *is* lying. That's surely Legilimency of 
> the kind that DD mentions at work.

Yb's turn (after a long hiatus due to work piling up):

This is one of my favorite subjects, and I wish JK would have told 
us a little more about it. My impression has been that Legilimency 
involves seeing things in a person's mind that they are thinking 
about at the time, subconciously or consciously. Lying is the 
perfect example: when a person is lying, they are often thinking 
about the truth, and how they are trying to cover it up. Thus any 
Legilimens with a bit of practice behind him/her could see right 
through Harry in his state of panic in the examples Potioncat 
mentioned above.

Remus only said Snape was a superb Occlumens; maybe he is a 
Legilimens-in-training? Per haps these past few years he's been 
practicing on the side with Harry when the opportunity presents 
itself. This would explain how the spell was so powerful and 
effective.

Dungrollin again: 

> Which makes me wonder about Occlumency.  Occlumency seems to have 
> parallels with Legilimency, in that a sufficiently accomplished 
> Occlumens can lie in casual conversation to a Legilimens and get 
> away with it.  But you don't protect your self from the 
> spell "Legilimens!" with "Occlumens!".  Or maybe you do, and Snape 
> forgot to mention it in the lessons...  Which would explain why 
> Harry wasn't getting anywhere.

Yb once more:
Yeah, Snape would be one to *conveniently* forget to mention that. 
Though it would seem to defeat the purpose of using Occlumency if 
you told the guy you're trying to fool that you were using it? 
Certainly LV would know Snape was lying if he used an Occlumens 
spell around meeting time. That would sort of give it away. And I am 
sure that, even if there is an 'Occlumens' spell that can be used to 
counter 'Legilimens,' a powerful wizard/legilimens could break 
through it. It may be that a powerful enough Legilimens could break 
thorugh an Occlumens' defenses, if say, the vicitm was in a very 
unfocused, emotional state.  Meaning ol' Snapey had better be 
careful in the next two books.

It seems that Occlumency/Legilimency takes some predisposition. 
Someone who is very calm under pressure (DD) or has a habit of 
showing no emotion (Snape or LV) would certainly be more inclined to 
succeed at O/L than a person who is rather rash and has a hard time 
thinking through a situation with a clear mind (like Harry). 
Hermione may be a better candidate for being an Occlumens, bsed on 
that thought.

I still hold that Snape is a superb Occlumens, as quoted by Lupin. I 
don't think he's a Legilimens, though he may be practicing. I also 
still hold that Harry has shown signs of perhaps being a Legilimens 
as well, perhaps another power transferred over in Godric's Hollow. 
Granted, it will tkae some time to get him to the point of being 
mentally capable of either Occlumency or Legilimency, but it may be 
possible.

~Yb, who apologizes for any spelling errors in this post, because 
she is used to typing on her laptop keybord, which is much more 
sensitive that the big one that she is using right now because she 
likes it better.