"Slytherin" Hermione? (was Re: The Beetle At Bay)

[Bex]

No: HPFGUIDX 112319

HunterGreen wrote:
>> From what we've been told about Slytherins, they are ambitious, 
>> use any means to achieve their ends, given the choice will always 
>> save their own neck and come from a 'pure ancestory' (I take that 
>> to mean pureblood, or half-blood at the least). Slytherin does 
>> not *require* believing in pureblood supremacy, its just that 
>> many of the students in that house happen to."

But Susana disagrees: 
> I don't think Slytherin requires 'pure ancestry' - half-blood is 
> hardly considered 'pure ancestry'. Tom Riddle was half blooded but 
> he believed in the supremacy of pure blood. I always assumed the 
> requirement was that believe and not the pure blood ancestry
> (though I agree that a muggleborn wouldn't be sorted in to 
> Slytherin - it would be strange if he/she *believed*).

And now Yb:
I really doubt Tom Riddle had the pureblood mentality that Slytherin 
is famous for. How could he? He was an orphan, with no knowledge of 
his family, and lived in a Muggle orphanage. It would be like you 
said, a muggleborn "believing," not really plausible. I think the 
only reason Tom got in with his muggle-blood intact was because he 
shared all the personality traits Huntergreen listed above, and he 
was Salazar's descendant. I think some degree of pureblooded-ness is 
required to get into Slytherin, even though the Hat doesn't base 
placement only on that criteria: Neville didn't get put in 
Slytherin, nor did any of the Weasleys, or Cedric (I'm grasping 
here. I think he was at least a first generation pureblood: his 
father works in the MoM, and his mother is not described as any bit 
out of place or uncomfortable in GoF in the few places where we see 
her. Thus, the Slytherin criteria probably put pureblood on a list 
of "required" traits, but you need a few more in the personality 
department, else you'll be put somewhere else. And before someone 
mentions Harry, remember, *Harry* mentioned Slytherin when he was 
under the hat being sorted; the Hat elaborated on it, saying he had 
a few/some of the qualities necessary, but I don't think it ever 
*considered* placing Harry in Slytherin for a moment.

HunterGreen also wrote:
>> Am I the only one
>> who's getting a little frightened of Hermione? Back when I was 
>> first reading the books she was my favorite character, but around 
>> the time she kidnapped Rita Skeeter in GoF she's worried me a 
>> little bit. Hermione is ruthless, strong-willed, and often 
>> dangerous."

Susana replied:
> I don't think Hermione would use *all* means to achieve her ends -
> only those she thinks are justifiable. One may argue that her 
> means are *not* justifiable, but I'm arguing that *she*
> believes they are. You seem to be implying that she draws no line; 
> I'm saying she draws a line that some people consider excessive.
> Personally I think it's a very courageous line because she's aware 
> of how close to 'wrong' she is and how easily she can cross it by 
> mistake. When telling Harry and Ron about Rita in GoF, she shows 
> signs of being nervous (guilt?) to find out her friends reaction 
> to what she's done. My interpretation was that she's not sure if 
> she crossed the limit. Is she dangerous? Oh, yes. Along with DD 
> she's one of the most dangerous characters in Potterverse. People 
> who fight for a cause that transcend their own welfare (house 
> elves rights/muggle rights/etc.) are often a lot more dangerous 
> than people who 'just' seek power - who are 'just' ambitious.
> Ambitious people tend to draw a completely different line that has 
> nothing to do with 'justifiable'

Yb:
Susana, you aren't alone on this one. I'm not sure how *guilty* 
Hermione was feeling on the train in GoF. She was happy, beaming, 
speaking with quiet triumph, and smiling serenely, to quote some 
adjectives, etc. But I'm sure she draws a line, and it's a little 
further than some of us want to go. I think she did want her 
friends' reactions to this little plot of hers: interesting that we 
don't get them. The boys are stunned into near speechlessness, but 
we don't hear what they think of this plan. If she was wanting 
a "good girl," she didn't get it that day.

Susana:
> Back to Hermione, I rather not use the word 'ambitious' because 
> it's too flexible. I said she doesn't have a 'thirst to prove 
> herself' - 'thirst' being the key word here. While Percy clearly 
> wants to be an important person; Hermione wants to "do something 
> worth while" (OotP). And I never met someone who says that and is 
> after recognition. People who use that expression regarding their 
> aim in life usually spent their lives fighting for a nearly lost 
> cause. You can say that's 'ambitious' but that is the reason I 
> didn't use that word - it's not a thirst for recognition.

Yb:
Agreed. Hermione is smart, and she likes to prove it by doing well 
in class, and she doesn't play dumb for anyone, but she doesn't 
really brag about it. Much like me in high school. Sort of like me 
now. She won't deny that she is smart, and she's caught bragging a 
little ("I got 112% on the Charms exam") but she isn't rubbing 
people's noses in it, or really calling attention to it, outside of 
answering every teacher's questions correctly, of course. When the 
students in the DA got their "Galleons," Terry Boot calls her on the 
Protean Charm she used, saying it's NEWT level, she tries to look 
modest about it. She doesn't think it's a big deal, she thinks all 
the weird looks are because the kids don't like the idea. She 
doesn't want awards and recognition for her brains, no more than any 
other smart student would.

And HunterGreen wrote:
> There's one other thing that we've been told about Slytherins, 
> that being that they have a disregard for the rules, and on the
> surface that wouldn't fit Hermione at all. On the surface that is. 
> Hermione obeys the rules when they work for her.

Susana replied:
> Ok, I overlooked that as a Slytherin trait. A certain disregard 
> for the rules is definitely Slytherin, and Hermione has it. But 
> then again, she's a teenager. Even Percy could be found with a girl
> in an empty classroom late at night. Breaking rules is part of 
> growing up.

Yb's response:
Who wasn't like that when they were an adolescent? Everybody broke 
some rules that they didn't agree with: Don't stay out after 10, 
don't have parties with adults away, do your homework everyday. 
Please, I think Percy is the only true rules stickler in canon. Even 
DD breaks rules occasionally. I really doubt it's accepted practice 
to hire werewolves and centaurs for teachers. And he even said in 
CoS: "Sometimes even the best of us have to eat our words" regarding 
Ron and Harry breaking rules to save Ginny, etc. Breaking rules, 
especially unjust ones, like ones that begin with "educational 
decree number", is a very common thing, for Harry, Ron and Hermione. 
In fact, until GoF, Hermione was the one saying "You shouldn't do 
this or that." In PS/SS she was doing it for a while because "THOSE 
ARE THE RULES!!" but she eventually reverted to scolding when she 
saw doing something as dangerous: "Don't use the Firebolt, don't 
sneak into Hogsmeade with the Invisibility Cloak, don't mess with 
time, etc."

 HunterGreen wrote:
>> Personally I think Hermione might have fit in Slytherin if she
>> weren't a muggleborn.

And Susana's answer: 
> Hermione and Percy are in Gryffindor because they *chose* to; Not 
> because they were rejected by the other houses!

Yb's final reply for the night, unless something else needs my 
attention:
Maybe she has some traits, but not enough in my opinion. I believe 
that the Sorting Hat truly sees where we best fit, regardless of 
what the bloodlines be. I think some choice is involved: if Hermione 
had wanted to go into Ravenclaw, she'd probably have been put there. 
But if she'd asked for Slytherin, I think the Hat may have tried to 
talk her out of it. I think that's why it took so long to place 
Neville: he was desperately wanting Hufflepuff (based on what we saw 
of him for 4 books, I'm sure that's where he /thought/ he belonged), 
but the Hat kept saying "No, no, you would fit right in with 
Gryffindor! You can do it, I swear!" The Hat's purpose is to decide 
what house the student belongs in, based on personality traits, and 
take into consideration the student's choices, but not leaving the 
decision entirely up to that.

~Yb, signing off a very long post