Snape and Harry again.

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 113097

> Carol: No, no! I love seeing you in Snape defense mode. Great job!


Alla:

LOL! Thanks. It may return soon, since I do see SOME good points of 
Snape character  :o). 
 
> Carol:
> I never said he was a good person; only that I'm sure he's on the 
side
> of good. But he does have admirable qualities: loyalty to 
Dumbledore,
> impressive powers of deduction (when he doesn't let his assumptions
> get in the way), and remarkable courage for a Slytherin. 


Alla: I want to believe that he will turn out indeed to have those 
qualities. As I said - I don't want to believe in ESE!Snape either. 
Sadist? Yes. ESE! Not really.



Carol:

snip.

At least two qualify as sadists in my view:
> Umbridge and Bellatrix. Based on their treatment of Dobby, the 
Malfoys
> may also fit this category. (Imagine making the poor creature iron 
his
> hands!)



Alla:


Hmmm. True. Bella and Umbridge are definitely sadists, but with 
Snape as I believe Rowling definitely shows the smaller degree of 
sadism.

 

> Carol:
> I honestly believe that his singling out Harry isn't sadistic, 
though
> of course his reference to "our new celebrity" is sarcastic 
(caustic,
> ironic, and intended as ridicule). But I believe that there's a
> valuable lesson being inculcated here. Harry *doesn't* know 
anything
> about the WW at this point. He didn't *earn* his celebrity status.
> It's not through any skill or talent of his own that he's the Boy 
Who
> Lived. And Snape wants not only Harry but everyone in the class to
> know that. He doesn't want an insufferably arrogant Harry (a second
> James) who thinks he's better than everyone else. It's very 
important
> that Harry recognize and remedy his ignorance before Voldemort
> returns. (Yes, I do think that Snape has been briefed by Dumbledore
> regarding Harry's special role in the war to come even though Snape
> doesn't yet know that Voldemort is under Quirrell's turban.)


Alla:


Sorry, sorry, sorry. We definitely have to agree to disagree on this 
one. I see no justification whatsoever to what Snape did.
Preventive attack on eleven year old? 

To knock him down from imaginary pedestal? If you ask me, Dumbledore 
already did more than enough to make sure that Harry does not grew 
up arrogant. He left him with Dursleys and as he admitted to Harry 
at the end of OOP, he watched the boy closely. So, he surely knew 
that arrogance is not one of his virtues.

True, Harry does not know anything about WW yet. This "anything" 
includes Harry not knowing that he is a celebrity. Well, actually, 
no, Hagrid already told him that he is famous, but surely, Harry 
does not know what this means.

What good the public humiliation served, I don't know.


 
> Carol:
> Maybe Snape's intention *is* to make Harry stronger. That's what I
> think, anyway. Competence without arrogance or anger, and the 
ability
> to concentrate under pressure. I think that's what he's after. And
> it's a lesson Harry really needs to learn.

Alla:

If Snape's intention to make Harry stronger, he  did not do a very 
good job , IMO, which Occlumency failure shows.

Actually, I think this disaster showed that Snape's cause of actions 
towards Harry during last five years was completely wrong.

Harry was forced to learn the branch of magic which had to keep him 
alive and away from Voldie from the teacher whom he does not trust.
 
>> Carol:
> Make Harry afraid of *himself*? Harry afraid of Harry? Not sure 
what
> you mean here. If you mean "make Harry afraid of *him* (Snape)," 
I'm
> not sure I agree. 


Alla:

Yes, sorry. Of course I meant Harry afraid of Snape.

The reasons I cited these examples was to show that Snape did cause 
Harry some emotional harm ,even if it is not as bad as for Neville.

Carol:

 Anyway, you evidently see sadism, a la Umbridge, where I see a
> combination of antipathy (which Snape is fighting to overcome in 
the
> Occlumency lessons until Harry's invasion of the Pensieve causes 
him
> to lose the battle) and (motivated) sarcasm. I guess we'll never 
agree
> on this one.


Alla:

Yes, I do see sadism, even though of lesser degree than Umbridge and 
that is the part of Snape's personality, which I will continue to 
bash with pleasure. :o) Yes, we have to agree to disagree on this 
one.


 
>> Carol, who will be very, very disappointed if Snape rejoins 
Voldemort
> and very sad if he dies.


Alla:

Believe it or not, this part I absolutely agree with. I just want 
Snape away from chidren , especially from Harry at the end. 

And he lived happily ever after. :o)