James and Snape. Was. Re: Snape and Harry again.

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 113728

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
> Valky wrote: 
>  snivelling, US USUALLY sniveling   
>  adjective OLD-FASHIONED INFORMAL
>  used to describe someone whom you do not like because they are 
>  weak and unpleasant:
>  That snivelling creep/coward!
> > 
> > 
> 
> Potioncat:
> 
> As to lapdog, it seems the Brits  have a more harsh meaning of it 
> than Americans.  Too bad no one pointed it out sooner.  I've seen 
it used in a similar way, but not to this extent.  However, if 
lapdog here means brown-noser, then it is telling us that Snape's 
role includes pretending to work for Malfoy. (Are any of us 
surprised?) Black is taunting him for it, but Snape doesn't bite. So 
if you are correct Valky, and I think you have a good case, 
then "lapdog" has nothing to do with 15 year old Snape. (And I just 
realised I snipped the part about lapdog in Valky's post.) 
>

Valky:
I don't know that you have got that quite right Potioncat.
Doesn't Sirius ask if Snape is *still* Malfoys lapdog, implying that 
he has been percieved to be brown nosing Malfoy for a *long* time.
 
Potioncat:
> As to snivel.  It has the same definition in American English, so 
> I'm not sure of your point.  
> Webster's New World Basic Dictionary
> snivel: 1)to cry and sniffle/2) to cry or complain in a whining 
way. (Stop sniviling and get to work.)
> 

Valky:
My point is that Snivelling has a different meaning to snivel-ing 
when it is spoken by an english bloke (like Sirius or James).
If you are called snivel-ing because you are crying that is a valid 
meaning, but *more often* you are called snivelling if you are 
*known* to display weak character. 
I suppose you would have to experience the culture first hand to 
make this subtle discernment. It might help if I offer that the 
equivalent term in American english of this word, used this way, 
might be something more like contemptible.
But I don't suppose you'll buy that. Since it only comes from me.  


Potioncat:
> The act of crying does not prove a moral weakness.  I normally 
think of sniveling as something a young child would do. And I 
understand its meaning as an adjective. 
> 

Valky:
Just to answer this, You might notice that the English meaning of 
snivelling does not require that the sniveller be crying. Just to 
be "weak and unpleasant" which are soft ways of saying that the 
person is percieved to lack virtue. This is a cultural distinction 
that you may not understand given that the comparison is a bit like 
reading the American constitution to the culture that America 
intended to defy when drafting it. I was raised by British people 
and the standards of virtue held by them are easily encapsulated in 
the statement, one must not be weak or unpleasant. So in short you 
are challenging, here, the British language and not me.

Potioncat:
> Now how did Severus become Snivelus?  Did 11 year old oddball 
> Severus get hit with a hex and cry/complain to McGonagall about 
it?  The Marauders were given detention and as a result jeered at 
Severus for sniveling to the teachers. (We're told he followed them 
around trying to get them in trouble.)
> 

Valky:
That is possible, actually. It's called tattle tales and is frowned 
upon in British culture. Note that Draco did the same in PS/SS with 
Norbert and Macgonagall gave *him* detention in fairness that he had 
broken rules as well. Most people familiar with the culture would 
know that many British ladies such as Macgonagall would consider it 
*brown-nosing* (hmmm there it is again) to tell tales to a higher 
authority. 
There is some resistance to that culture about, but it is relatively 
a new ethical standard that probably wouldn't have existed in Snapes 
childhood. 
That's not to say that MacGonagall wouldn't have been entirely 
*fair* to Snape she most certainly would have been explicitly fair, 
she would however have dissapproved of Snapes actions, and they 
would be seen to be an attempt to manipulate her into *bullying* 
James and Sirius *for him*. That we already know is *precisely* the 
reason Draco went to McGonagall with his tale, and frankly, James 
and Sirius would have seen it precisely the same way.
 
Potioncat:
> Sirius Black calling Snape "Snivelus" no more proves a moral 
> weakness in Snape, than Snape's calling Black a coward disproves 
> Black's courage. 
> 

Valky:
This makes a very good point and I will concede it. However, Black 
*is* locked in Grimmauld Place and is *not* out risking his behind 
at the time, like Snape is, so in a way Snape does somewhat call a 
spade a spade. Since Snape has a chance of being killed by what he 
is doing for the order he spits in anger: Why isn't Sirius risking 
*his* life too?, and its really quite valid, although cold to 
Sirius' suffering.