James and Snape. Was. Re: Snape and Harry again.

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 113893


> > Feklar:
> >  After reading your post a couple of times, I think you are 
saying James and Sirus dislike Snape because of a moral decision on 
their part? And that the evidence of this moral decision is the fact 
that they use derogatory terms implying Snape has a weak character?
> Aside from the fact that that is rather circular logic,
> >
> > Valky:
> > it's circular reduced to those two terms but I think we are able 
to know a little more about what James and Sirius might choose
> > *morally* in some respects than you are letting on. That is all
> > assumed by my logic here.
> 
> feklar:
> 
> What other terms would you use?  Ultimately, words are symbols and 
arguments are equations.  If they don't work at their most simple 
iteration, they won't work at a more complex iteration, they'll just 
be obfuscated by the extra words.
> 

Valky:
I really do not believe that they don't work in their simplest 
iteration. Snivelling is a derogatory that implies poor moral 
fibre "weakness and unpleasantness". Sirius calls Snape by the name 
Snivellus, and therefore he could be implying poor morality. 
The evidence further to back up that Sirius would be inclined to 
accuse Snape of "weakness and unpleasantness" is plentiful 
throughout the books. Sirius: calls him a "Lapdog" and up to his 
eyeballs in Dark Arts; says he never missed a chance to curse his 
friend; accuses him of going out of his way trying to get the 
marauders expelled.... 
It is clear to me that Sirius *would* accuse 15 year old Snape of 
being a weak and unpleasant person. He would consider Snape to lack 
virtue, and he *would* intend the name Snivellus to imply this.

Feklar: 
> Actually, I don't know that we know anything about them morally.  
If anything, their teenage selves come across as very amoral to me.  
Again, to me this is a characterization choice JKR made: they are 
typical of children in that their cruelty comes of amorality rather 
than evilness.  Though I do think by 5th year they were hitting an 
age where they should have been developing a sense of morality, 
Lilly and Remus seem to be, but James, Sirius and Peter haven't -- 
at least with regard to Snape.
> 

Valky:
To here I have been talking about Sirius mostly. Because we have the 
most canon on him it is easier to know his ways. 
Peter, he never developed any moral backbone even as an adult, so 
thats a no brainer.
Lily shows herself by her virtues in the pensieve, and Lupin has 
some evidence of a conscience, so I won't argue what you have said 
about them.

James, on the other hand....... Most everything we can say about 
James would be highly speculative, and I assume that *this* is the 
characterisation choice that JKR made. 

Back to Sirius, by now we already know that Sirius is/was a rebel 
with a poor attitude to a lot of things, however he was essentially 
liked, and trusted by people who knew him. We know that he was 
courageous and adventurous, frustrated, tending to act impusively 
and without forethought, very strong against adversity and a 
survivor of great tribulation. He believed deeply in courage, 
loyalty, and friendship. He tried to oppose purebloodism but he 
wasn't all that good at realising his own prejudice. 

James was a different person altogether. All we really know is that 
Lily loved him, and from Sirius he "always hated Dark Arts" and then 
we know the pensieve scene. About James morally we know he always 
hated Dark Arts, I can't dismiss it. Sirius is honest.

The line paraphrased is Snape was into Dark Arts, James always hated 
Dark Arts. This is evidence of a moral judgement. How can it not be?
That is all I know about James and it is enough for me to reserve 
judgement on his inner self in the pensieve. I judge his actions to 
be, although a little amusing and impressive in terms of skill, 
stupid, cruel and inexcusable. To me there is hope that all that was 
wrong with James is how he expressed himself. We do know that Snape 
cursed James fairly frequently, too, so I don't think the question 
of James' moral fibre hovers so ominously as has been claimed. 
Perhaps Snape was *expecting* an attack because he had snuck one in 
on James recently and expected James to react. 



Feklar:
> By moral choices, do you mean we know they wouldn't choose to be be
> cry-babies and tattle-tales?  Well, I guess, but what little boy 
would if he could help it?  But honestly, I can't see Snape in those 
roles either--after all, his first response to attack was to go for 
his wand and when Lily tried to help him, he not only refused help 
but drove her off with insults. So he showed himself to be slow on 
the draw and an ingrate, but not a sniveller in the one scene we 
have of him and the marauders.
>

Valky:
if I could, I would refer to the passages in GOF and POA when Snape 
is suddenly confronted with Sirius. The manner in which he pleads 
with Dumbledore IIRC does suggest Snape in these roles. 
Unfortunately for me I have lent my GOF and POA to my sister and I 
cannot read it to refresh my memory, I just recall thinking in those 
moments, that Snape was acting pretty weak.


Feklar:
 > As for Snape, we have even less evidence of what his sense of 
morality was. Personally, based on his adult personality, I lean 
towards the idea that his conscience was, like Sirius' and James', a 
bit late-blooming.  I can see him as a fairly amoral intellectual 
until some crisis of conscience drove him from the DEs to 
Dumbledore.  As an adult, I think he choses to be amoral
> 

Valky:
I tend to disagree because I think the moment in Occlumency when his 
sense of compassion flickers for a moment in front of Harry is a 
good indication of his true morality. Frankly I don't think James 
and Sirius truly ever saw this side of Snape. 
I agree that he *chooses* to be amoral, moreso I think he chooses to 
put on an amoral front. His belief that Virtues are weaknesses is 
his downfall. To me, he seems to have adopted the poor behaviour of 
James, at 15, as his front in adult life. 
Dumbedore must be an enigma to Snape given that his virtues are his 
power, but I suppose that Snape puts this aside and just accepts 
that DD is very powerful which is a good thing.
 


> 
> > Feklar:
> > > ......why whouldn't they use those derogatory terms simply 
because they don't like him?  Do you really think they would like 
him if he was an undeniably good guy?  What if he was a good little
> Gryffindor like Neville and turned them in for something, isn't it
> > as likely they would call him a snivelling brat?  The point is we
> > don't know why they call Snape those things other than that they
> > clearly don't like him.
> > >
> >
> > Valky:
> > We know that they dissapprove of prejudice, even as youngsters, 
so I seriously doubt that they would not have gotten to know a little
> > about Snape before they decided that they did not like him.
> 
> feklar:
> 
> Do we know that?    I can't really think of any evidence that they 
even know what prejudice is much less disapprove of it.  Granted, 
they accepted Remus, but maybe that was simply because he was a 
Gryffindor.  Maybe they just thought it was a great adventure to 
know a werewolf?  Maybe if they had known what he was from the 
beginning, they would have shunned him, but since they didn't they 
were able to overcome that particular prejudice?  Maybe if
> he'd been a Slytherin, they would have felt it just confirmed 
their belief that Slytherin is full of dark wizards and dark 
creatures?
> 


Valky:
No I really don't think they would have shunned Remus if they'd 
known first. Two things I agree with to some extent are:
That they were still keen on Remus because of the adventure 
potential.
and that if he was slytherin.....
I think it may have implied to them that Werewolves were dark 
creatures but I don't think they had previous prejudice against 
werewolves. 
Of course we know that they were opposed to prejudice. James 
certainly made a lot of racket about the ills of saying mudblood in 
the pensieve scene. It is a travesty to say we don't have at least a 
little indication that they were tolerant. Hagrid loved them, Remus 
loved them, they were in Gryffindor the *most* tolerant house.


> btw, w/r/t to the Neville hypothetical, I think James and Sirius 
would have despised Neville.  Sirius didn't like that Harry 
wasn't "adventurous" enough, how much worse would he think of 
Neville, who not only wasn't adventurous (and unlike Peter wasn't 
interested in sucking up or applauding their antics), but also was 
fairly morally aware at a young age and might have called them on 
some of their actions or reported them?  More irony with
> names:  Neville could easily be Sniville.
>

Valky:
Ahh but Neville would not do this, note that DD gave him ten house 
points for having the *courage* to stand up to his mates when he 
could more easily but less concientiously have *snivelled* to some 
teacher instead.
 
That will have to do for now I have other things I must do.
Best to You 
Valky