House Elves' enslavement

[dungrollin]

No: HPFGUIDX 114290

> ------------------- 
> Susana previously:
> "But, you see, paternalism is not totally out off place here. If 
> you say elves have human intelligence I agree; But if you say 
> elves have human *capabilities* I'll say I've seen no proof of 
> that in canon (maybe they do, I don't know)."
> 
> Dungrollin asked:
> "Erm. What's the difference? And why is their equal intelligence so
> obvious?"
> -------------------
> Susana replied: 
> I didn't say *equal* intelligence; I said *human* intelligence 
> (meaning human-like or human-type). Humans have all the same type 
> of intelligence and they certainly don't have all the same 
> capabilities.
 
Dungrollin now:
(Great post, btw.)  
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.  I don't really understand what 
you mean by capabilities. I hope you don't mean magical powers, 
because discriminating on the basis of that is what the DEs who 
torture muggles do...

> -------------------
> Dungrollin previously: The point is having the *choice*!
> <sniped excellent analogy to women's right to vote>
> If house elves want to serve people and it makes them happy, then
> fine, let them. But magically forcing them to serve wizards they
> despise is wrong wrong wrong. While the majority of house elves may
> be happy, we have already met two who aren't/weren't -
> Dobby and Kreatcher. The only way to get rid of this injustice is 
> by giving them the choice, and at the moment, they don't have that 
> choice. No matter how willing the slave, slavery is slavery.
> <sniped some more>
> Certainly, trying to set the school elves free against their will 
> is
> wrong, and Hermione is not thinking straight when she does this. 
> But I don't think the reaction of everyone else in the WW (Hagrid
> etc) is a good enough argument against trying to get the elves 
> freedom.
> I can imagine talking to a Swiss man in the 60's about women's 
> suffrage and him saying "But they don't *want* to vote!
> It'd be doing them an unkindness!"
> ---------------------
> Susana replied:
> Excellent analogy (now, why didn't I think of that?). 
> For the record, I love Magda's suggestion that elves were supposed 
> to be given clothes but wizards twisted that. 

Dungrollin:
For the record, me too.

Susana:
> Also for the record, I *completely* agree with your analogy and 
> that's *exactly* what I meant! 

Dungrollin:
Oh good! I think I was mostly reacting to the implication that it 
wasn't worth fighting for elves' freedom because they didn't want 
it, but it was worth fighting for their better treatment.

Susana:
> I just have a more practical view of things. Let me try to explain:
> Swiss women, with individual exceptions, were offended that *any* 
> women would vote. So much they voted against women's vote! 
<snip>
> My point is, if you're dealing with that kind of reasoning you 
> can't say "elves should be free". You loose credit if you do. 
> People just assume you're an insane radical and stop listening! 
> Instead you should say: "a recent study concluded that 30% of the 
> elves are emotionally abused and 12% are physically abused. Also, 
> 19% admitted they wish the entire family they serve would die." 
> Think of how much more effective your speech would be; what larger 
> impact in society. 

Dungrollin:
You're absolutely right, of course. Hermione's not going about it in 
a way at all sensitive to the society in which she's acting.  But 
then, I suppose, she's never been shy of speaking her mind when 
others disagree with her, has she?

<snipping neat analogy with reactions to bullfighting>

Susana:
> So, concluding, if Hermione's objective is to free the elves, 
> SPEW's declaration of intentions should be to change the 
> mentalities and create the conditions for... Elves' Welfare. 
> Because if she mentions elves' freedom no one will listen. 

Dungrollin:
I *still* think she should be fighting for them to have the power to 
withdraw their services - which means freedom.  But that's just a 
difference of opinion on strategy rather than underlying aims, I 
think.  I also see clearly what you mean about rubbing people's 
noses in issues that seem (to them) absurdly extreme.

Cheers, 
Dungrollin