[HPforGrownups] Man the canons Re: Snape vs. Sirius (was: Snape's Stubbornness)

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 127369

Lynn:
After all, it doesn't make sense to me that, if he was being
victimized, Snape made sure to stay close enough to James to overhear
his whole conversation while supposedly being totally absorbed in his
exam.  Harry was between Snape and James and had to strain his ears to
hear after the exam while Snape seems to have been able to hear which
speaks of trying to hear through all the noise, not of being absorbed
in the test paper.  Also, if Snape was such a victim, wouldn't he have
made sure he didn't sit so close to James?
> Again, I don't buy the deeply absorbed in the test paper explanation.

Jen:
Others make a pretty good case for the Pensieve acting as an
objective viewing of a memory, taking into account everyone present
and reflecting the scene pretty much how it happened in real life.
>

I'm in the objective Pensieve camp, which means I don't necessarily
think Snape was eavesdropping on S&J from behind the shrub.  The
distance between the shrub and the beech tree is not mentioned, and
when Snape stood up the text does not suggest that he saw S&J until
James spoke.  My impression was that he was virtually out of earshot,
and when he did get up, he walked "across the grass" with no
indication of whether he was headed toward S&J by the lake or back
toward the castle .

But even if he was eavesdropping, it was completely in character and
not, IMO, inconsistent with characterizing S&J's actions as bullying.

Jen:
> Whether the memory is subjective or objective though, I do perceive
> some elements of bullying in that scene. Two-on-one, public
> humiliation....not exactly James' and Sirius' finest moment. *But*,
> and this is a big but, I don't for a minute believe the tables
> weren't turned on other occasions or that the one scene indicates a
> pattern of bullying on the part of James/Sirius.

I see this a bit differently.  While a single scene like the Pensieve
cannot in itself establish a pattern of bullying, I perceived James
and Sirius as bullies *before* OOP.  The Prank was, in my view, a
bullying act.  The inequality -- there are four Marauders, two of whom
were active antagonists, and several admiring onlookers against only
one of Snape -- gives the scene a bullying tone.  And I'm sure Snape's
other encounters with James were not one-on-one.  Snape was unpopular
enough -- Harry sensed this in the Pensieve -- so that James could
likely rely on support anytime he chose to pick on Snape.

> There was a reason they all hated each other so passionately, and I
> can't believe James' explanation for attacking Snape "because he
> exists" was the final word on the matter. That sounded more like an
> attempt to impress Lily and pander to the crowd than an explanation.
> What's he going to say? "Wah, Snape is mean to me all the time; just
> the other day he..." blah, blah blah. Better the nonchalant answer
> implying James has the power.

I don't think James's comment "because he exists" is to be taken at
face value. It only suggests a long history between them.  (I imagine
a scene on the Hogwarts Express in which 11-year-old Snape boasts to
James of his Dark Arts prowess -- maybe with a little demonstration
thrown in for effect -- and is greeted with a cold response not unlike
Harry's to Draco in PS/SS.)

> Jen:
> This is another example why I can't believe there was a *pattern* of
> bullying on the part of James and Sirius. A victimized person is
> very sensitive to the routines and actions of an attacker. He
> wouldn't willingly go anywhere near the vicinity of James and
> Sirius, and in fact would be extremely careful to avoid them. In
> that moment, Snape is either truly unaware J & S are around,
> implying he's not overly sensitive to their prescence, or some part
> of him feels up to the challenge.

I don't think Snape's reaction is inconsistent with being bullied. 
Bullying is bullying whether or not the victim can take it.  Dudley
has a long history of bullying Harry, yet that doesn't prevent Harry
from standing up to him, or make him cringe in fear whenever Dudley is
around.  Of course, Harry has gained something of an edge now that he
can threaten Dudley with magic.  Snape, I'm sure, has plenty of curses
at his disposal to use against S&J, so he needn't cringe in fear,
either.  And we're told that he never lost an opportunity to curse
James, so we know he fought back.

Snape's sneaking around (according to Sirius) for a way to get J&S in
trouble was simply another means of fighting back:  he wanted to catch
them doing something expulsion-worthy, because he was tired of them
getting away with it.  This is why he got suckered into the Prank, and
why he didn't avoid S&J.   Though he wasn't paying attention, his
reaction indicates that he expected trouble as soon as he became aware
(when James called "Snivellus") that they were in the vicinity:

"Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an
attack: dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes and his
wand was halfway in the air when James shouted, 'Expelliarmus!'"

The phrase "expecting an attack" is interesting, because it suggests
that, upon seeing S&J, Snape pulled out his wand in self-defense
rather than aggression.  And that, in turn, suggests that Snape has
been attacked on other occasions when he came too close.

After the Prank, Snape probably thought he'd finally gotten S&J on a
charge that would stick and, if nothing else, raise him in
Dumbledore's estimation at S&J's expense.  Not only is there no
mention in the books of any punishment (I know that doesn't mean there
wasn't any, but it does make it likely that any punishment was not
made public), but the outcome may have been the absolute opposite of
the punishment he hoped for; by converting James from someone who
wasn't Prefect material into a candidate for Head Boy, a title that
Snape probably coveted in his time as much as the Order of Merlin in
POA.

Of course, arguing that S&J were bullies doesn't in any way give Snape
license to curse them whenever he could.  JKR didn't show us Snape on
the offensive, however.  She showed us one engagement in a war that
had escalated over a very long period of time, but might not have done
had Snape been able to walk away from anger.

Debbie
who found a whopping error in the first draft of this post and fears
that another has slipped by unnoticed