[HPforGrownups] Nel Question #9: Gender - Perfect Sense

[Laura Ingalls Huntley]

No: HPFGUIDX 127501

I (Laura) wrote:
>> I totally agree that some of the stereotypes of boyhood in the
>> Potterverse are demeaning to actual boys, but I think you also need to
>> consider the fact that JKR often uses negative stereotypes of teen
>> girls as well (giggling, shrieking, being 'helpers' etc.).
>>
>> Same token, obverse side:  some of the boy-stereotyping is positive
>> (physical bravery, being 'leaders'), as is some of the
>> girl-stereotyping (more mature).
>>
>> Personally, I don't think any of it is any good (stereotyping so 
>> rarely
>> is), but I'm willing to forgive all of it, as I love JKR. ^_~
>>

Tammy replied:
> So JKR stereotypes - some stereotypes aren't all that bad. For the
> most part, boys are immature and clueless when it comes to girls. For
> the most part, young girls giggle, shriek, and end up being mommy's or
> teacher's little helper. I submit - so what?

The so what is that the "received wisdom" you're citing may or may not 
be factual *and* may or may not be harmful.  What about the boys who 
aren't rambunctious?  What about the girls that are?  What do you think 
happens when adults take a "boys will be boys" attitude in their 
dealings with young males, but expect more obedience and maturity from 
young females?  Don't you think these are sort of self-fulfilling 
prophecies?  Especially when they are supported by "common knowledge" 
and cultural icons such as Harry Potter?

> If you think back to your school days, how many oddballs were there?

Er . . . lots?  What do you mean by oddballs?  People that don't fit 
the mould?  As someone who attended a very "girl-centric" clique-y 
middle school, I can tell you that even the people who seem the *most* 
representative of the stereotypes are often actually struggling the 
hardest between trying to fit in and trying to define their 
individuality.

> How many clueless immature boys? How many giggling girls, who usually
> do travel in packs?

I would not, in general, typify males as "clueless" -- not matter what 
age group we're talking about.  The fact is, if you expect certain 
traits from a group of kids, you will general find that those traits 
become more prevalent in the group than others.  All of this, of 
course, stems from the human drive to classify, to categorize, and to 
define the "us" and the "them."  I'm not saying this drive is EVIL, by 
any means, but I *do* think it needs to be acknowledged, at the very 
least.

> Not all of the characters fit the same stereotype
> either. You've got Ron, the classic youngest boy in a large family.
> You've got Neville, the shy backward boy. You've got Fred and George,
> classic school pranksters. You've got Lavender and her pack of
> giggling schoolgirls.

I'm not saying that the characters aren't individuals, and I think 
you're talking less about general stereotypes here and more about 
*character* types.  What I am arguing is that *overall* in the 
Potterverse, there are certain traits and roles given to females and 
*different* traits and roles given to men.  And I *don't* think that's 
a particularly healthy view of the world, is all.  People should just 
be people, right?

> If you're writing a book design for children, you want characters in
> there that the kids can relate to (same is true for adult books for
> that matter). People relate to people they know. At my school, I was
> the Luna. My best friend was more like Hermione. And I definitely knew
> some Freds and Georges. So they're stereotyped - so what?

I agree with the first part of the statement, insofar as it is easier 
to use stock character types to "catch" a child's imagination, although 
I would argue that it *is*, in fact, the familiar and comfortable 
stereotypes they are responding to, not the idea that these stereotypes 
can be applied directly to their acquaintances.  As for your anecdotal 
example, I again stress the difference between identifying with a 
character *type* and identifying with the *overall* gender stereotypes 
present in the books.  For instance, would you identify with the idea 
that females are helpers and males are leaders?  What about women being 
care-takers and men being rescuers?  Or girls being emotionally-savvy 
and boys being, well, not? ^_~  And if you *do* identify with these 
things, do you think everyone else does or should do so as well?  Are 
these valid and good impressions to enforce for children?

On the other hand, if you don't think that HP reinforces the 
stereotypes I mentioned at *all*, that's another discussion entirely.

(I won't even get into the argument of whether HP is specifically a 
children's series or not.)

Laura (who stresses that she is not trying to be contentious here and 
is *absolutely* in no way trying to say that HP is bad, sexist and/or 
should be burned. ^_^)