Back to narcissistic!Snape (was: Lucious, Severus, and Narcissistic PD)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 127531


Naama earlier:
> > > I also agree that while pleased with Draco's flattery,
> > > he doesn't seek it.

SSSusan responded:
> > Possibly, though I would maintain that we really don't know 
> > whether he seeks Draco's flattery or not.  When Draco went on 
> > about how he (Snape) should be Headmaster, maybe one reason he 
> > did so was because he's been rewarded for past comments along 
> > those lines?

Naama then said: 
> Can I just request something here? Can we base this discussion on 
> actual facts and not on speculation? I may possibly have a brain 
> condition - my neurons are wrongly aligned or something, but I find 
> myself incapable of reconciling fact and speculation - like apples 
> and oranges they don't add up. 
> Regarding the current point - we haven't seen Snape reward Draco 
> for flattering remarks, so I'm sticking as close as I can to the 
> realm of facts and assume that he doesn't generaly do so.


SSSusan:
Well, I have three thoughts in response to this request:
1) if a list member isn't fond of another poster's style, there is 
nothing which requires the person to respond;

2) this entire thread is necessarily quite speculative; 

and most important for the purposes of discussion,

3) I brought up a scene, from canon, where we SEE Draco flattering 
Snape.  Now, I think Naama is saying that this is just a student 
flattering a teacher and the teacher seems to be pleased.  End stop.  
That's fine.  

What I see is a kid who is speaking up freely in *Snape's* class and 
saying flattering things to *Snape.*  From what I remember, we rarely 
see EITHER thing, so when it happens, I think it's worth speculating 
about.  Why is it that Draco feels comfortable speaking up in Snape's 
class?  Why is it that Draco doesn't seem to hesitate in schmoozing & 
flattering Snape, openly stating he believes he'd be a wonderful 
headmaster?  

These kinds of questions may seem off limits, in the sense that we 
don't have canon answers for them, but they speak to a scene in 
canon, and I guess my tendency is to believe that wondering about 
them, speculating if you will, is fine & dandy and might prove 
fruitful.

Is it really that big a stretch to say that perhaps Draco is quite 
comfortably openly flattering Snape in class because he has flattered 
Snape before and received Snape's approval [or at least not Snape's 
wrath] for it?  


Naama:
> I agree of course that Snape creates an atmosphere of fear. What I 
> don't sense from the books is that he *feeds* on this fear. To 
> illustrate what I mean by feed, think of Umbridge - she is someone 
> who feeds on the fear and pain and humiliation she causes others. 
> While Snape is sadistic and takes some sort of pleasure from 
> inflicting (certain kinds of) pain, I don't get the sense that he 
> *needs* others to regard him with fear in order to maintain his 
> sense of self. 

SSSusan:
Again, you may be right; I may be wrong.  I merely present the 
possibility and say that I find it interesting.


Naama:
> About DD: we know very little of Snape's relationship with DD, very 
> little of how he feels about him or what he wants from him, 
> emotionally. I certainly can't think of canon supporting the "Snape 
> wants DD to admire him" supposition. What we do know is that Snape 
> is loyal to DD and that DD trusts him. We have very little further 
> insight, I believe, to the deeper aspects of their relationship.
> 
> We see so very little interaction between Snape and his colleagues. 
> AFAIR, nothing that we have actually seen even hints that Snape 
> craves admiration/approval from his colleagues. He's kind of 
> perpetually snide to everybody - with some fluctutation, but not 
> much. 

SSSusan:
You're right that we necessarily have very little insight into 
anything about what Snape wants emotionally from DD.  As I noted 
above, this entire thread is highly speculative.  Yet I *so* see 
Snape craving DD's, if not admiration, at least his validation of his 
importance in the "You have not forgotten that he tried to kill ME?" 
[emphasis *not* mine] remark.  But that's just my reading.

And I would argue that we see Snape willing to back down from DD & 
from McGonagall.  When DD tells Snape the punishment for the Flying 
Ford Anglia isn't HIS to give, but MM's, he ascedes.  When DD 
says, "Innocent until proven guilty, Severus," Snape backs off.  MM 
talks about the Quidditch Cup and "hearing about it" from Snape in a 
way which made me as a reader believe it was in the nature of 
collegial ribbing.  

In none of these instances -- and these are just off the top of my 
head -- do I see Snape as snide.  He is snide with Lupin & with Fake!
Moody (both DADA teachers, natch, and people he has reason to feel 
negative towards or uneasy around), but do we see him being snide 
with Sprout, Pomfrey, Flitwick?  I don't recall it.


Naama:
> He is generally nasty to people - that's his normal mode. His 
> nastiness varies in intensity, true, but at his least nasty he is 
> still very very far from "catering" to anybody. His basic courtesy, 
> hints of friendship with McGonagall are very far from that, as is 
> his gruff loyalty to DD. 

SSSusan:
Again, you see it this way; I see it another.  I see Snape as almost 
conciliatory with DD.  


Naama:
> Then why is he also cruel to Hermione? She takes her studies and 
> her professors very seriously - why not "nurture" her?

SSSusan:
I addressed this upthread.  Whereas Snape appears to view most 
students as dunderheads, clearly Hermione is no dunderhead.  In fact, 
her hand-always-in-the-air know-it-allness may be seen as a challenge 
["See what *I* know!"].  Yes, it means believing he is seeing or 
treating different students differently, but Snape's got a history of 
that, no?  


Naama:
> People can be (and generally are) pretty selfish. That doesn't mean 
> they are (necessarily) narcissists. The narcissist exploitativeness 
> arises from deep within, from an unacknowledged lack in his/her 
> sense of self, which is projected as a deficiency in their sense of 
> the autonomous self of others. That's my understanding of what 
> constitutes a narcissist. So, while of course a DE may also be a 
> narcissist, it's by no means necessary. We have to look at Snape 
> and decide whether he has that specific emotional blindness - and I 
> don't think that he does. 

SSSusan:
I agree with this description, but I think that Snape does have that 
specific emotional blindness.  So there we differ.  And that's part 
of the game and the fun of it all, imo.


Naama:
> Just to be clear - I don't think that Snape is "fairly healthy", 
> either. He is quite a bit f-d up. There's a lot of middle ground 
> between a PD (which is a severe condition) and fairly healthy. His 
> levels of rage, insecurity and cruelty are far (IMO) from healthy 
> or normal. It's just that he is not as damaged as a person with NPD 
> is.  

SSSusan:
Yup, there is a lot of middle ground between those extremes, just as 
there are ranges of impairment with NPD.  This is why I've also 
stated that I'm tending to come down as potentially finding 
*narcissistic traits* over full-blown NPD.  But I do still see the 
narcissistic traits.

Siriusly Snapey Susan