Sin/Redemption & Snape / Christianity in HP

[nrenka]

No: HPFGUIDX 128309

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "AyanEva" <ayaneva at a...> wrote:

> AyanEva: 
> 
> Ok. I'm really hoping this doesn't come off as an attack on
> Christianity because it's NOT AN ATTACK at all! I just want to make
> that clear. I'm just having some trouble understanding the
> applicability of Christianity to the Harry Potter books, that's all.
> I've read every post on this, but I'm still befuddled. So, please 
> bear with me and keep in mind that it's not my intention to make 
> anyone mad or offend people. These are honest questions that really 
> are related to the Harry Potter series as a whole.

This might be of interest, if you haven't seen it:

>From the Vancouver Sun interview by Max Wyman of Oct 26,2000.
-------
Harry, of course, is able to battle supernatural evil with
supernatural forces of his own, and Rowling is quite clear that
she doesn't personally believe in that kind of magic -- "not at
all."

Is she a Christian?

"Yes, I am," she says. "Which seems to offend the religious
right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every
time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I
do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than
that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too
freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60,
will be able to guess what's coming in the books."

When you get that "will be able to guess what's coming in the books" 
there, it points to her religious beliefs informing the action in 
fairly strong and direct ways.  This has led to a lot of listie 
speculation in the past about symbolism/etc., but as Lupinlore was 
exploring, it also has potential ethical ramifications.

> In regards to sin/redemption, if a person thinks that they're 
> right, then they don't know that they're wrong. How can you be 
> punished for being wrong if you never knew you were wrong in the 
> first place because you didn't know what was actually right? 

(Note: these are not necessarily my own positions, but a feeble 
attempt at explication.)

One might say, as in the legal system, that "ignorance of the law is 
no excuse."  JKR is writing a universe with many shades of grey, but 
equally strong suggestions that there are things that are wrong, and 
there is a deep opposition between things that are right and easy.  
One common theme seems to be examination of these concepts, 
struggling to determine what is right and what is not and thus 
exorcise the spirit of pride, which is *the* fundamental sin in 
Christianity (at least some formulations of it) because it sets 
oneself above God.  The DEs who believe that they are right refuse 
examination of their ideas, and follow a false idol.

<snip>

> That doesn't fit with the fact that no religion is mentioned. 
> Christmas doesn't count because the date pre-dates Christianity and 
> it's the Winter Solstice anyway; and the birthday of some guy who 
> killed a bull and stepped on a snake whose name I can't remember. 
> I'm pretty sure there were some stars and a moon or something 
> involved too, but that's beside the point.

But people do say "God" in the books (a lot more than they say 
Merlin, for instance), even people like Malfoy who some have 
postulated as being pureblood and thus pagan.  Doesn't seem to work 
that way at all.  Don't forget the Fat Friar, either--monasteries and 
cathedrals were centers of learning and culture throughout the entire 
Middle Ages, and a strong nod is being made to that with the 
Hufflepuff House ghost.
 
<snip>

> When do you stop obeying the law? According the Caeser verse, never;
> so Percy, Marietta, and anyone else following laws established by
> society can never be wrong. But Harry breaks the rules/laws plenty 
> of times, so if the Caesar rule, an important part of Christianity 
>(at least in my church when I was growing up) can't be applied to the
> books. How many other Christian ideas can be applied? I would assume
> this eliminates Christianity as the main influence (I imagine it 
> could still be an influence, but not the main one), but I'm not 
> sure because the government classified my childhood church a cult 
> and I don't know what lessons were emphasized in "normal" churches.

>From my perspective, that's a very idiosyncratic reading of that 
principle--which can be read a number of ways.  Remember that the 
followup verse is "And unto God what is God's", and God commands 
one's moral allegiance: this has been/can be read as a call to 
disobey an unjust law to do the righteous thing, which is what at 
least some of Harry's rulebreaking falls under.  JKR seems to care a 
great, great deal about intent.

<snip>

> My point is this, I think Snape's intentions are explainable and 
> pure enough for me because I can't make any sense of the Christian 
> idea of sin and redemption.

No one knows what Snape's real intentions ARE, of course...

> He's doing the right thing now and as long as he keeps doing the 
> right thing, I can't see why it would matter so much WHY he's doing 
> what he's doing, so long as he's doing it. 

There are many ethical systems which consider intent to be of 
fundamental importance in ethics, and JKR seems to be flirting with 
some of them.  Think about the Cruciatus Curse--righteous anger 
doesn't work for it, but one must *want* to hurt the other person.  
Intentions directly become results.

<snips moral discussion>

I appreciate your perspective, but I think this is a case where 
(possibly) your horizon and the horizon of the author are going to 
end up radically incommensurate.  The Potterverse has shades of grey, 
but JKR is not exactly a moral relativist: there are things that are 
good, and there are things that are evil.  I suspect this will make 
itself even more and more manifest, and her own moral systems WILL 
show in her treatment of the characters.

Which means all those fun comments about Snape should lead somewhere.

> AyanEva:
> 
> I know I just stated my confusion in another thread, but Christmas 
> and Easter ARE pagan holidays. And it's very much in line with what 
> pagans would practice (I used to practice Wicca, but I've mostly 
> lapsed). And this is part of the reason that I'm so confused about 
> the Christian-religion-in-the-books thing; I just don't see it. I 
> think I'm looking at things from a completely different angle.

They originally coincided with pagan holidays--probably not 
accidental.  However, as practiced today and in meaning, for a  
believer they are, of course, decidedly not pagan holidays.  (As a 
side note: Wicca is maybe a hundred years old.  
Most 'reconstructions' of historical pagan rituals are tenuous at 
best.)

What we have seen in the books are representations of holidays 
celebrated very much in the modern real-world style, chocolate eggs 
and all.  What we don't know about is the personal religious 
devotions of characters.  Some of the symbolism is there, but it can 
be hard to hunt out because she does with things what she will, and 
doesn't feel an obligation to keep the meanings the same.  Take the 
snake symbol: positive in some cultures, negative in most Christian 
readings.  Which one is she riffing off of for the basilisk and 
Slytherin House?  I don't know.

Some would like to put JKR as an Inkling, together with C. S. Lewis 
and J. R. R. Tolkien, both authors where the Christian influence is 
really obvious.  Since I'm a believer in her comments panning out, 
that one up at the top is very, very suggestive.

-Nora waits for the metaphysics of the series to become less 
obscure...finally...