[HPforGrownups] Re: Prophecy wording - why not Neville?

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 128333

> GEO: A majority does not equal truth. There are also Harry is the
> Heir of Godric Gryffindor theories out there and so far despite
> going past the half way point for the saga and so many numerous
> clues that theory so far has turned out to be a dead end.

The jury is still out on many many theories, and this is one of them. 
Nothing in canon contradicts the "Heir of Gryffindor" theories.  Nor,
as I discuss below, does canon prove beyond a reasonable doubt that
Harry is the One described in the prophecy.

I wrote:
> > It *is* possible that LV marked Neville
> > as well as Harry, and we don't know it.
> 
> GEO: Yes it is, but certainly not as his equal. The Death Eaters
> also have been marked by Voldemort, but only Harry has been marked
> through the scar and the events of 10/31/81 as somewhat of an equal
> to Voldemort.

That is what Dumbledore believes, and he can make a very reasonable
case that it's true, but we don't know this as a fact.  We have no
idea what may have happened to Neville.  He is not marked physically
on any part of his body that we can see, but we cannot say with
certainty that Neville was not also marked.  We also cannot rule out
the possibility that Voldemort has not, at this point in canon, marked
anyone *as his equal*.  Harry has been marked, but as what?

Dumbledore's prefaces his statement "there is no doubt that it is you"
with the caveat "I am afraid" which can legitimately interpreted to
mean that everything after that is Dumbledore's interpretation of
events.  Moreover, it's unlikely that Dumbledore could conclusively
prove all of his interpretations.

Dumbledore opines that "in marking you with that scar, he did not kill
you, as he intended, but gave you powers, and a future, which fitted
you to escape him not once, but four times so far."  Note that
Dumbledore does not ever state that LV transferred "all" of his powers
to Harry.  This isn't the first time Dumbledore has suggested that LV
transferred some of his powers to Harry.  He said so in CoS, but,
again, he makes clear that it's his interpretation ("'Unless I'm much
mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he
gave you that scar.").

Dumbledore also does not state that LV has equipped Harry with the
power to *vanquish* him, only to *escape*.  That is something that his
parents, and Neville's parents, who according to the prophecy did not
have the power to vanquish him (because it says *the* one) have
already done three times.  He has bested them by escaping a fourth
time.

I'm not even certain that this is a known fact:  I can only count two
where powers he received from Voldemort were helpful (CoS and GoF). 
According to Dumbledore himself, Harry escaped the in Godric's Hollow
and in PS/SS because of the power of love (he escaped in OOP because
Dumbledore saved him, so I presume DD isn't counting this one). 
Dumbledore himself tells us of Lily's sacrifice, and he tells us that
Quirrelmort could not stand to touch him because of the love behind
that sacrifice. ("Your mother died to save you.  If there is one thing
Voldemort cannot understand, it is love.  He didn't realize that love
as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. . . Quirrell
could not touch you for this reason.")

Unless Harry received the power locked in the DoM from Voldemort
(love, the saving-people thing, or however you define it), Voldmort's
powers did not help him to escape; it was the power that Voldemort
knows not.  Dumbledore does identify love as a "power."   The problem
I see with this theory is that the prophecy refers to the that LV
"knows not"  in the present tense.  If JKR crafted the prophecy
properly, Voldemort lacked this power at the time the prophecy was
spoken.  Therefore, he could not have transferred it to Harry.

Also, others have pointed out that his statement of Voldemort's intent
doesn't quite make sense.  In addition to the merits of their
arguments (as well as the possibility of a wand-order-type error),
unless Dumbledore has used his Legilimens powers on LV (and there
doesn't seem to have been much time for him to do that at the DoM), he
doesn't *know* what LV's intent was.

So unless he knows exactly what powers Harry has, as well as what is
in LV's mind, what he reveals to Harry at the end of OOP consists of
conclusions drawn from the evidence at his disposal.  They may be
reasonable conclusions, but he does not have uncontrovertible proof.

JKR unquestionably wants us to believe that Harry is the one.  But she
also wanted us to believe that Sirius was a DE.  I don't think we can
rule out the possibility that Dumbledore's explanation was a big
setup.

And, in my mind, the big tip-off that Dumbledore has not correctly
analysed it comes when he tells Harry that the phrase "neither can
live while the other survives" means that Harry will have to kill
Voldemort or be killed.  That's a leap of logic, and JKR has not
provided a basis in the text for Dumbledore to make that leap. 
"Vanquish" does not mean "kill" -- it means to overpower, defeat,
overcome, subdue or gain mastery over.

> GEO: Thing is, Dumbledore along with Hermione is JKR's two main
> sources of giving us information. To have him turn out to be wrong
> in this case would equal the writer actually cheating her fans and
> readers at this point.

Others on related threads have already addressed this point.  See
tinglinger:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128268

I will add that many people disagree as to the authoritativeness of
JKR's interview statements.  In my profession, oral statements cannot
trump textual evidence, which is assumed to have been written with
much more deliberation and edited for accuracy.  The text never says
Dumbledore is always right, and I think there are clues in the text
that he is not right.  Also, I don't believe that JKR said that
Dumbledore is always right either (just like Hermione is not always
right; she always quotes from a book such as Hogwarts: A History), but
I couldn't find the quote on Quick Quotes.  Do you have a link?

> GEO: I'm sure there is some alternative interpretation, but
> certainly not an alternative that would prove in the end that the
> information given by Dumbledore and thus the author of the story
> wrong. Dumbledore is only wrong in his choices and actions, but so
> far he is Rowling's mouth piece and still knows pretty much
> everything because the author knows everything there is to the story.

JKR knows everything, but her characters don't have the same luxury. 
She is a master of misdirection and of clues hidden in plain sight. 
Dumbledore is not omniscient, and admits in the very same chapter that
he does make mistakes.
 
> JKR even
> > invites us to compare him with Peter Pettigrew ("[Harry] watched,
> as
> > though somebody was playing a piece of film, Sirius Black blasting
> > Peter Pettigrew (who resembled Neville Longbottom) into a thousand
> > pieces." (POA ch. 11)).
> 
> GEO: And so far we know he is nothing like Pettigrew. I believe
> those comparisons can be identified as nothing, but red herrings put
> into the story by Rowling.

I agree; that was my point.  It was a red herring placed in the story
to draw our attention away from Neville's true character.  In GoF she
began to increase our focus on him, and in OOP she moved him much
closer to the spotlight.  However, the spotlight is still very much on
Harry.

> GEO: So basically you really have no textual evidence for this and
> support this only because of your desire to have Neville look good
> at the end?

No, this is only a reason why readers go looking for clues that may
suggest that Dumbledore is mistaken in his analysis of the Prophecy. 
My point was that the clues do not rule out Neville as the One, even
if the path to get to that conclusion is much more twisting and
*appears* to be strewn with boulders whereas the path to the
conclusion that Harry is the One, which is supported by the surface
reading of OOP, is straight.

But, there is nothing wrong with speculating on this list about other
possible outcomes.  The reader is not obligated to take Dumbledore's
words as gospel.  And, of course, this list is not a court of law, so
we are not constrained to accept the answer that appears, at this
point, to be more likely than not.  If I were to go with the odds I
would choose Harry, too, but this group would be a lot less fun if we
didn't explore all of the possibilities.  FAITH is a very strong
influence, and she carries Occam's razor in her pocket, but sometimes
it's more fun to take the horse with the long odds.

Debbie
who recalls that in her early days on the list the rule was that *one*
bit of canon was enough to float a theory